1 10 9 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/74d79b268796f9fd4fe70c39672ea551.pdf b89704ddedb683cf46b70c975e8540c2 PDF Text Text BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twentyyear gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transitionB Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world andDownie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with the, these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. Transcribed by Aaron 3 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that, I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. Transcribed by Aaron 4 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-B Biggs: Crossing lines-Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-Downie: Marion got oral histories from-B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-B Biggs: I remember that now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez; Native American water rights activist; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It Transcribed by Aaron 8 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. Transcribed by Aaron 9 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a twonight trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). AndB Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-G Biggs: Find that picture-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, soDownie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying toG Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. Transcribed by Aaron 12 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? Transcribed by Aaron 13 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Transcribed by Aaron 15 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-G Biggs: LAFSB Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Okay. So-B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-B Biggs: Not that many of them-Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. Transcribed by Aaron 18 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-B Biggs: For all the arts-G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 19 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 20 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-Downie: It morphed into something different-Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-B Biggs: Yes, yes-Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 21 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-B Biggs: They go-G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 22 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 23 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-B Biggs: Yeah, it was-G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it wasG Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 24 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. Transcribed by Aaron 25 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 26 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-B Biggs: Yes. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 27 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-Downie: Because-B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 28 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 29 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 30 2024-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie and Gunnar. Interview transcript, March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_transcript Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5490a2f714ae99ef8991f09f90947482.pdf f155830d06e7141eac3e5191343c7007 PDF Text Text BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there-you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin@/x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to 12:50pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different noteBlanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we-because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of-then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin@/x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of_where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2023-11-17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview, April 26, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bridget Blanshan License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9da90704cc77e7e9c03910465dfda649.pdf 67d8cd755ed34dd9dac9c25137231b72 PDF Text Text DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought-up in and a little bit about your childhood. Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds. And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs). De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization? Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people, but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah. De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San Marcos)? Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs). De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?” And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent, their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal growth, so. De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai; Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership & Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption). Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org? Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more, we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate others. De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student Union. Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino & Filipino-American student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events. Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students, like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So, yeah. De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like between you and your superiors? Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) OrDe Maria: Or both. Excuse me. Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know, we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them. I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned (laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in my previous interviews, so I—(Carreon interrupts; two speakers) Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Yes. Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So, that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd never experienced Café La Paz (laugh). De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well. Carreon: Mm-hmm. De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable. Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights (political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester (laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So, I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as well is within itself doing activist work. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had. And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was? Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one? De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind. Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months, a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Gender Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories. Yeah, (laughs) De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that journey. Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them, but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So. De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know, how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying. Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn. And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that. And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral & Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to just sign off. So. De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run? Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? LikeDe Maria: Yeah. Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas. So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself. De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions? Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s, CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the CrossCultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years. De Maria: Right. Yeah. Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So. De Maria: Got it. Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs). De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently underrepresented? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably, what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think, you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are? Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from intergenerational trauma or death. So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing. Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So. De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience. Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your biggest challenges of doing that? Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers (laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you. Carreon: You said my most important, sorry? De Maria: Lesson. Carreon: My most important lesson? De Maria: That you've taken. Carreon: Probably to, pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard (laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of, of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand people. So. De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable, and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for the school. Carreon: Yeah (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela. Carreon: All right. Thank you. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carreon, Daniela. Interview transcript, April 6, 2023. Description An account of the resource Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student. This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniela Carreon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-06 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services Civil rights Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán Student movements Psychic trauma Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Daniela Carreon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e4b63f52f64e75d6b2babf4b5ae15f82.pdf ba62a9bcaeab7b7107074cfb0e2ab846 PDF Text Text Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Jennifer Ho: Okay. Today is May 30th, 2023. My name is Jennifer Ho, and I am interviewing Dr. Dilcie Perez for the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Oral History Project. Thank you so much for being with me today, Dr. Perez. How are you? Dilcie Perez: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. Ho: Great. Okay, so I just wanted to start with a little bit about you personally. Can you tell me where you're from? Perez: No (both laugh). So I grew up in a military family, so I had the wonderful opportunity to live in places like Arizona and Maine and California, and Okinawa and traveled around and graduated high school in Okinawa, Japan. And moved to California as--in the nineties, early nineties. And had started, when I graduated high school in Japan, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go to college. And so I kind of took a lot of classes at community colleges. And when I moved to California someone said to me, “Have you ever heard of a place called Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos?” And at that time, I had not. And so they said, “Oh, they have programs at the time for juniors and seniors, and so you should check them out.” And so I applied to go to school at San Marcos and was accepted. And so I can talk about that later, obviously. But I, my, I come from a family of--I have my parents and I have two brothers, and I am the only girl and the youngest. However, I was also adopted, and so found my biological family later in life. And so in that family, I am the oldest of three girls. And so, have a wonderfully blended family. My education, I graduated from Cal State San Marcos in (19)94-ish. And I say that because I had the wonderful opportunity to speak at commencement in (19)94 as the speaker, one of the student speakers. And, and I think my speech might, I don't know if it's in the archives, but there's gotta be some video or something of all the, the different commencements. But moved immediately after that to North Carolina and had two classes to finish. And so I was also pregnant at the time, and so it took me about a year to get those two classes done. So I walked in (19)94, but my, my diploma says (19)95. And came back to San Marcos and then went and got my master's at Central Michigan. So they have--they had a military on-base education. And so they would fly out the instructors from Central Michigan to do an executive master's program. And this is back in the early 2000s. So this was years ago. And then I waited thirteen years to go back and get my doctorate from San Diego State in educational leadership with the emphasis in community college. Ho: Thank you. Can I ask you what brought you out to California in the first place? Perez: Yeah, the military. So I met my ex-husband in Okinawa, and then we moved to North Carolina, and then he received orders to Camp Pendleton. And so we lived in Oceanside actually at that time, and then I went to school. Ho: Okay. Okay. That's great. What were your impressions of--of California, of San Diego, of Oceanside when you, when you arrived for the first time? Perez: Yeah, I don't think that I had anything particularly of California. Because I traveled the world. And so it was another place. I remember living in--off of Mission Avenue and just appreciating being close to the beach and the weather. And but I will tell you this, that I came, so when this was (19)91-ish. And when someone referenced, like to go to Cal State San Marcos, and I say this, I tell the story all the time: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 1 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 that when I applied to Cal State San Marcos, got accepted, I went to orientation. And orientation at that time in 1992 was at Cal State Jerome's. So you've probably heard the stories across the street. Ho: Yep. Perez: And I can see it. One, I will tell you, I still have my 1992 orientation binder that I received when I came. Still. So I've traveled and moved. But I recently was, you know, consolidating. I was like, “No, I'm keeping this, like this is good, important stuff in 1992.” And I will tell you that what is pivotal for me of having been in a military family traveling the world, that I remember walking out of orientation feeling like it was a place that I belonged because of the message of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, you know, in (19)92, we didn't always use those words. Ho: Right. Perez: But, but diversity was a value for the campus from the start. And I remember people, someone at orientation saying, “We don't want to be a melting pot. That's old, outdated language.” And this was in (19)92, right? “Because a melting pot blends everyone together, and you can't tell the difference. We wanna be a salad bowl and we want everyone to have a unique.” And so that resonated with me that I felt like I found a place, even at my orientation in 1992 at Cal State San Marcos. Ho: Wow, that's, that's amazing. That's really great to hear. So is that--just to fast forward a little bit, is that what brought you back to CSUSM? Perez: That's interesting. So literally when I worked in as a student, I worked in what was at the time Student Affirmative Action. So they called it SAA. Someone by the name of Denise Hollis became a mentor. I think Eric Cardoso or folks in Student Affirmative Action (Program). And this was obviously before Prop 209. That then started to abolish offices such as that, right? And so when I worked in those areas and SASOP (Student Academic Services Outreach Program) and stuff, I was a student going out and doing motivational outreach. So we would do programs in schools, and I was going out doing that, and I had such a powerful experience as a student. And I moved to North Carolina right after I graduated for a year and a half, two years. And when I came back, I was at a party, like a barbecue, I can't remember. And someone said to me, “Hey, you know I got a new job.” It was somebody that I worked for. She said, “I got a new job.” And I was like, “Ah, I want your job.” Like, “I want your job.” And she just started laughing. She was like, “Ha.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. I really want your job.” Like, “What do I need to do?” And her assignment was temporary. And so this was--so really why I came back to work was because there was a temporary opportunity. It was an Assistant Outreach Coordinator in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. And so I started back at the campus that I love so much, and really in official capacity doing what I had done as a student. Ho: That's wonderful. And was that after you got your, your doctorate from SDSU? Perez: No. So this is all in 1998, (19)90. So I graduated in (19)95. I was in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And then I came back, I think in (19)97 and worked for GEICO, did temp work. I was like, “What's my life's purpose? Where am I headed? What am I doing?” And then I met her at this party or saw her again Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 2 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 at this party. And then the rest is history about (CSU) San Marcos, because I left, there's a lot to the story. But I left, but stayed for a long time and really had a great professional experience. Ho: That's wonderful. Do you remember the name of the person from the party? Perez: Oh, Mary Wardell. Um-hmm. Ho: Mary Wardell. Perez: Yeah. She was, she worked in Student Affirmative Action, and she moved and went to the Dean of Students' Office, was an Assistant Dean of Students. And that's when I saw her. 'Cause she had just received that pro-- promotion. Now she works at--she moved to, I think, University of the Pacific, but she does DEI work, she’s done written books and done amazing things in this area. Yeah. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: So now backtracking again. I wanna hear about your time as a student, because obviously it had a profound impact on you. So, so did it meet--did being a student meet your expectations after that orientation? And can you tell me about some experiences on campus and the people that you met and some pivotal moments? Perez: Oh, I love it! So I will tell you that I (laughs)--I, I had a fun experience at (California State) San Marcos, but I wasn't your traditional student. Like, I didn't know what a Dean of Students was. I didn't know about higher education. I knew that I had gone, I didn't learn this until later. I'd gone to like six different community colleges picking up classes. I spent time at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, picking up classes. So I was going to school constantly, but picking up classes as we traveled. And so when I got to, you know, (CSU) San Marcos, it--you have to remember the culture was so different because it was so small and the faculty and the students were so tight. And when I arrived, there were no first year students. It was only juniors and seniors. And we only had three buildings. So Science Hall, Academic Hall, and maybe well, Administration Building, Craven, which is not Craven anymore. So it was those three buildings. And I will say to you that I was married, right? And so I was working during the day, I was going to school, and I took classes. I will tell you, that's really profound. And to this point, I'm still connected to these faculty members today. Leslie Zomalt. So, you know, the (Ernest and Leslie) Zomalt Award they're very, I'm very close to them. She was my faculty member in California History and we're still close. And she gave me a B! Like a B, a B. So I was like, “Why do I like you so much? You gave me a B.” But she was so good because she would, what I loved about her--I was going through a personal, difficult personal situation during that time, and I must have missed class or something must have happened that, she called me and she said, “I realize that you're not around. I wanna check on you and see how you're doing.” And that was pivotal to me. I remember that she went to a conference and she loves to read. She still loves to--I, I'm going to her house for quilting. She got me connected to quilting. I hate quilting. I hate it. I hate it. But I love you know, I, when I came back one time, I said to her, “Will you make me a quilt?” Is what I said to her. Literally this bold. And she said, “I will not make you a quilt. I will teach you how to quilt.” And I was like, “Ah, okay.” So, but every year, for about ten to fifteen years, we have quilted at her house for a year, for at one time a year. Now, I don't Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 3 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 quilt any other time. I still hate quilting. But I love the sense of community and the mentorship and the love that goes into it, that I literally will quilt one thing within my range once a year when I go. And so I will say to you that what I think about at San Mar--and Jill Watts. So let me tell you, Jill Watts is still there. She is a historian beyond historians. And, and I talked about her in, in my commencement speech that the best African American History class I have ever taken is by a white woman. Hands down. She is brilliant. She is, you know, phenomenal. It's funny, even when I worked at (California State) San Marcos, I wouldn't see her as much, but she would just beam every time that she saw me because she knew who I was as a student. I remember that Peter Zwick, I don't know if you've heard that name. He used to be over (at) Global Affairs at the time, but was really a hard, hard political science instructor. Like people were scared of him. Hard. And I decided, 'cause I was lost, I was gonna do Poli Sci as a major. And he, I went to him, who's my faculty advisor too. He must've been. And I sat there and I said, “I'm graduating in May.” And he was like, “Dilcie, how are you graduating when you haven't hardly taken any political science classes?” I was like, “It’s a technicality. Technicality.” So I took twenty-one units, most of those political science classes, upper division in one semester. Ho: Wow! Perez: I thought I was going to die. And I think a few of them, 'cause he was a hard one, like one or two were with him. But I will tell you this, is that one, it was hard 'cause I was working and taking twenty-one units and picking up. But I will tell you that that was the best I did. That was the only semester I've ever made Dean's list (laughs) in my college career, because I knew I didn't have a lot of room to play. But I will say to you that as I think about (Cal State) San Marcos, it was pivotal to me because of the relationships, particularly with faculty that I established. Denise Hollis was administration, but we were, we used to go to a Third Word Counselor's Association. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it was years ago, and it was doing DEI work, and they were taking us there to those events. But even during the time, so I didn't get involved in a lot of co-curricular events. I have a colleague now, that used to work at Chancellor's Office and I just had an event for her. And I was like, we went to college together at (CSU) San Marcos. She's very--Sabrina Sanders. We went to college. And I was like, I don't completely remember her, but we went to college together. Right. Because she remembers me. And I just wasn't involved in a co-curricular way. So I would tell you my co-curricular experience really was the relationships with them. But we did a play. So this is in the archives as well, but for Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Wasn’t Enough (Is Enuf). Ho: Okay. Perez: We, we all practiced for months. I--months on weekends and nights and did this two-weekend play or maybe one weekend. And it was in like the school newspaper. Gezai (Berhane) showed it to me later, that we all did this play. It was sold out in ACD 102 sold out. It was just wonderful. That--those are the pivotal moments for me. My orientation, my relationship with faculty, my--spending time in that (production). That's what I think when I think about my (CSU) San Marcos experience that I treasure the most. Ho: That's lovely. Thank you. And what did you say the title of that play was? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 4 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: For Color Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow (Is) Enuf. So it's about seven African American women and the diversity of their life. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah, it has some pretty heavy topics in it, quite honestly. And so that's what made it so impressive quite honestly. Yeah. Ho: And can you speak a bit about--about the culture on campus for you as a student? Whatever comes to mind, but in particular I'm interested in, in culture and community and, and DEI and, and different groups of students. Perez: So, that's an interesting, I am grateful for this question. I don't think that I was mindful enough to know at the time with words and language what I was experiencing. I think I felt like I mattered. That I was making relationships and making connections. And I, and I hate to--I don't always like the cliche of mattering and belonging because I think people have to unpack that and think about what that means. But I will tell you, I felt like I belonged at (CSU) San Marcos from day one. From day one. And so--but I also didn't have a lot of needs, right? So at that point in time for the two years that I was there, two or three I think it served the need that I had as a non-traditional student. When I came back in (19)97, the campus had changed because the first-year students came in (19)95. So it was not the same. We--I could tell we were going through an identity crisis, right? We were planning the 10th anniversary event when I returned, and I brought the (laughs) Charger girls. I was gonna bring them to the event. And I don't know if you know, but back in the day and you have to be careful about this, this part, but back in the day we had a librarian who was heavily involved in the campus and (laughs). Ho: Okay Perez: And there was a lot of music, it (was) like jazz, right? That works for an older population. And so it was wonderful for the campus when there was juniors and seniors and older people, but first-year students and sophomores (laughs), I don’t--jazz isn’t it all--like, we have to be more than that. And so I really was proud of myself, quite honestly. And I was like, I got the Charger girls! They're coming into this event. They literally took me to, we--I don't know if you've heard of Surge? So Surge used to be the coffee shop. Ho: Okay. Perez: That was on the corner, kind of down by--by Block C by, you know where the quad is? It was on the corner there. There's a real estate office there now. They took me down to the Surge for coffee and they said, “We don't want T&A at our event.” Like, and I said, “What? Like, the Charger girls are like, like professionals (laughs)! Like they, they're not, they're not T&A, what’re you talking about?” But they would not let me bring the Charger girls to that event. I had to cancel them. Ho: Oh my goodness. Wow. Perez: And I think that the campus was in that transition from this kind of older and more mature thing to saying we have to be more relate--like, I was trying to push us to be more relatable and it did not work that day at all (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 5 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Wow, what a conversation that must have been. Perez: Oh, it was fun. But you know, I've always, I've always liked to get into good trouble, right? Ho: Yeah. Perez: And so for me it was then how are we meeting the needs of students? Because what we, what we did for, it was supposed to be like 10th anniversary in a preview day, and it really was just, you know, the same old thing that we had been doing all of that, that time period. So-Ho: Okay. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Did--are you saying the event turned out to be kind of the same old, same old? Perez: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: 10th anniversary jazz ensemble (laughs). Yeah. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: And people showed up, but it wasn't what you really would think of, of a traditional college experience. So we went through transitional times such as that. Ho: Okay. Well that's a good segue into the Cross-Cultural Center then. So when you were a student at that time, there was not a Cross-Cultural Center, is that correct? Perez: That's correct. Ho: Okay. So when you came back to CSUSM in a staff role what are your first memories of rumblings of a Cross-Cultural Center, of a Multicultural Center? Do you remember? Perez: None. None. So let me put the context around, and this is where it--it's a, it's an interesting story. So if I go back to (19)98, (19)97, I worked in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. So SASOP doing early outreach, motivation, academic preparation. And I would say that that team and the people were diverse. We had the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops) as a space, which was really, if I remember correctly, only the primary kind of student-centered space. There wasn't a lot, you had lunch there, right? And you ate there, everything happened in the Dome. I would say to you, we were going through as a division, a lot of work around our values and trying to clarify and integrate our values in our, in for the team. And I would say to you what was hard, I'm trying to remember. I remember that there were WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) self-study and that it came back with some campus climate challenges. Ho: Uh-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 6 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: And I remember, and all my years kind of blur, right? So, but I have a time period of when, like pre--I have to explain it. But when I was in SASOP, I was heavily involved in a lot of different things. In outreach. And I remember, I think during that time, there was a noose hanging on the tree outside of Academic Hall. Not, excuse me, I'm lying to you. Outside of the Administration Building. So that fifth, fifth floor, you have Founders' Plaza, there was that--there's a tree there. Ho: Yeah. Perez: That tree had a noose. And so that caused a lot of energy. So the part that's interesting is that I was heavily involved in the community. I was working tremendously. And I think I had kind of burnt out, honestly, in outreach. So I was there five and a half, six years, and I had been thinking about, I need to change. I need to do something differently. And so I was driving to work one day, and I had talked to my ex-husband. I was like, “I think I'm, I'm done. Like, I'm tired, like I'm exhausted.” And he, he said, “(I) support you, do what you need to do.” And I had written a letter and I had it for like months and I hadn't done anything with it. And then one day I was driving to work and I can tell you exactly where I was when I was driving to work. And I said, “I'm done.” And so I came in to the office and I gave them my notice. And one thing that I will tell you is that when someone quits a job and gets another job, most people will say, “Oh, Jennifer got another job. She's moving on to better things.” Well, you get a lot of attention when you say, “I'm leaving.” And they're like, “Where are you going?” And I'm like, “Nowhere. I'm just done here.” And so folks in administration came to me and they said, “Hey, you know, we don't want you to leave. What's going on?” And one of the administrators said, “If we create an opportunity for you, will you stay?” And I was like, “Eh, I don't, I don't think so. No, no, no. I--I'm pretty tired.” And the campus threw a big going away party for me, huge. But what they had said to me is, “Leave, go ahead. Take two weeks. Don't, we're not gonna submit everything. You go think about this opportunity and let us know.” And I will tell you that it was until that last day, I think they had given me till 1:00 PM and they said, and I called at twelve fiftyfive because I wasn't going to do it. I was tired. And the opportunity that they had was the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so that was the first start to the Cross-Cultural Center. So that is how, honestly, it really--and so I'll tell you that what I know now, after I got into that position was we were doing 2010 visioning at that time. And I, this was, you're talking 2002 when I, when I shifted. Two thousand two/three. And they had already, I would say Jonathan Pollard, you've probably heard that name, and Bridget Blanshan. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: They had done some visioning, 2010 visioning. And, and I don't know, I could, I don't, I can't dig probably for you, but they have it-Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: This document. And in it, they had said they wanted to open Multicultural Programs and hire and do a space. So what happened, I believe, is that there was me saying, “I'm outta (laughs). I'm gone.” The campus not wanting to necessarily just let me walk away. And knowing they had an opportunity for strength and growth under Bridget is when I accepted and changed and came and opened Multicultural Programs. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 7 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Wow. It's a good thing you put in that notice. Perez: Oh, who you telling (Ho laughs)? 'Cause the campus one, I'll tell you this. And if I'm being quite honest, and I, if I had tried to apply for that type of role--as an outsider to a place, I don't, I would've not received that role. I didn't have the pedigree. I didn't have, you know, sure I had some of the education, but what people used to say at the time is that you're not a traditional Student Affairs practitioner. And I actually resent that type of statement because I don't think there's a traditional student affairs person anymore. Like that's old thinking. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: But I would say to you that I think I wouldn't have, I, what, what I believe was happening is I had established strong relationships. People knew my quality of work, knew that I would come in and at least set the ground running. That, that that's what I did. And so, honestly, when I came in, started the position, and literally I was in a cubicle inside on the fourth floor of Craven (Hall) and really had to set the, the vision. And so I met with nineteen, twenty people and I said, “What are our needs on campus? What do we think we should be doing? What do you want Multicultural Programs to be?” And I created oh my gosh, so many programs that first year. Like I was a party of one and a student assistant. But we started, I remember, oh, I can't remember. There's, there has to be somewhere. I did a flag, it had international flags everywhere. And we did a culture of celebration, or celebration of culture. Celebration of Culture was the first event. And then in that time, we started with--I partnered with Jonathan (Pollard) to start the African American Faculty Staff Association. We did the fires. We had the (brush) fires. And so we, because part of my job was volunteerism too. They threw volunteerism and engagement in there. So I did a fire, a drive, a, a clothing drive for the for out of the center for the victims of the fire. I did Soul Food Lunch, helped start Soul Food Lunch, which is gone now, but Soul Food Lunch, I think we did over 20 programs that first year that I was there. But it was all because of what people told me they wanted and what we needed. Oh, Powwow! I did the planning of the (Tukwut) Powwow with everyone. I, oh man. I could try and go back. Like we just, it, it really, I was, it was a way in which I could engage the community and build relationships across the campus. And so that is the foundation for how I really began to, I think cement my knowledge base in DEIJ (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice). Was really kind of this piecemealing and building. And so the piece that I will tell you is I, between Bridget (Blanshan) and I, I can't--we advocated for the space next door to Student Life and Leadership. And it's a square wall. It was it--that room? Hon--it is so small. Do you hear me? It is so small. But, we put a couch. I went and got a couch from (unclear) who, I don't know if you know her, she works. I went to her house and picked up a couch. We got--we built me a cubicle in there because I thought it was important to have a separation of space between any students. We did all this stuff. Oh my gosh. We were in there and they tried to come and take that space. I remember one of our academic colleagues, literally, I was sitting in the space and I turned around and she's standing there summing up the space for sure. And didn't say a word to me, and then turned around and walked out. And I remember going to Bridget and saying, “You've got to be kidding me. Right?” Like, you can't come while someone's sitting in the space trying to sum it up for, 'cause space wars were real. Ho: Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 8 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: And I think at that time, people didn't realize the power of a Cross-Cultural Center. And there was intentionality and, you know, we called it Multicultural Programs. And then I opened up the CrossCultural Center, and literally, as I see how you've written it, we had, do you put the dash in between Cross-Cultural Center and do we not? And later on there was the, the version of, is it C3, which we branded and branded well. And then, then people hated that brand, and then they had to move, which is fine, right? But I often, I laugh because I can't believe that the Cross-Cultural name has still stayed. And, and I'm exceptionally proud. This part, we may not wanna put too public, but that's the one center that has had no controversy (laughs) on the campus. Ho: Really (both talking)? Perez: Right? Yeah. Ho: So there was no pushback or anything when you started? Perez: Nah, Nah, none. No. Um-um. And they could have. But I think because the campus was small, I had great relationships. The way in which I did--did it in relationship. It was a community effort. People were engaged, people were support(ive). None. None. But I will say to you too that the way in which we approached DEI work was pretty soft at that time. You know, it was a very supportive nature. I wasn't tackling policy. I wasn't, you know, tackling searches and recruitments, and I was building community and that level of awareness around what we can do collectively. I think I wrote a mission in the beginning. But here's the thing: I will tell you that I was, in my humble opinion, the grassroots person, because I got it going. And gave, gave. And then I was there 18 months maybe, and then I moved to Japan. And when I came back, Alexis Motevirgin had taken it to a more formal place. And, and I was like, I think we had a mission statement back then? But Alexis, I think really formalized the mission and the work. I just, I just was the grassroots starter for all of that at the time. And then Alexis came, stayed just a few months, right? And then I, I think that I hired Augie (Augustin Garibay) and he didn't stay very long. Augie Garibay and then hired Sara, Sara Sheikh. And then she stayed for a little bit and moved on. And then Floyd (Lai), and he's the longest standing. Really, I think built a solid foundation. I was there. So this is where it gets weird. Because I was, I would say the associate director, or the first, however we wanna frame it for Cross-Cultural Center. But I was there from 2003-ish to (200)4 into (200)4, so probably eighteen months. And then I went to Japan, and I was gone a year and a half, and then I came back. So part of my work in the evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center, was when I was the Director of Student Life, and it was in my portfolio. So had the ability--so I was making--I hate, I feel awkward because it's almost like you're bragging. And so I'm trying not to brag. But we used to make lots of deals back then. So I would hustle to make deals for space, quite honestly. And so--we moved Student Life. So this was part of the plan. We moved Student Life to third floor, right? And that in the rotunda, I don't know what's the, it's Guardian Scholars, I think there're now, but it has a weird kind of diagonal room. Ho: Um-huh. Perez: So we went from the fourth floor down to the rotunda, and it was small in an awkward space, small. So we were there not too long. And then I worked a deal to switch. We put Leadership Programs down, I believe, or student org(anization)s down in the rotunda and in Commons 206 area, right across where I think Alumni Affairs is. We got a really good space and partnered with ASI (Associated Students Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 9 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Incorporated), they gave us that space to put the Cross-Cultural Center up there. And that's when the Cross-Cultural Center got its real visibility because it was in a prominent space, gorgeous space. Great. We had couches. Alexis, you might hear in stories about these beautiful red couches. So by the time I came back from Japan, these beautiful red couches were in the space. Those couches have lasted for a long time. People used those couches. I, when I got back, I actually--I tell people at the Chancellor's Office, bought a TV for the space. I wanted to buy a TV to do announcements on this, on the thing. And this isn't, you're talking about 2000. Whatever. And Bridget was so cute. She was like, “What are your student learning outcomes for them?” And I was like, “What?” So, you know, I had to, you know, write whatever. And then some things happened with staffing, and someone filed a whistleblower on me for buying the TV. Because I bought the TV. Uh-huh. And so I had to defend at the--for the Chancellor's office why I bought this TV for this Cross-Cultural Center back in the day. So it's interesting that what we consider is normal, were some things that as you build the infrastructure, right? And, you know, when you build something like this, people want it to be all things to all people. And I think that when I started, that was easy because it was just building. But as you've seen the iteration, I think each of the people who have led it have really had to think about what is the purpose of the center and the space, and how can it be most effective? Ho: So then when you were, when you were building, what was the purpose of it in your mind? Perez: Yeah. I think one, to provide space, a safe space for our students. To be a centralized resource and location. So I would say to you that in some ways I was, you know, the start of a diversity person on the campus in that realm. It was kind of a catchall at that time. I think that it, it--whether articulated or not, was to build really kind of the celebratory awareness events. And have the visibility and do that work to acknowledge the diversity of our communities on the campuses. And I--I'm having a hard time kind of remembering between the two roles, but I began to get brought into, we had an Institute for Social Justice and Equity that was created, a center. And that when I got back, we were heavily involved in. A lot of the bias response pieces because of student life I was involved in. And so I think it became a resource. And when I got back from the CSU--when I got back from Japan, I will tell you that it was then that I--we got really involved in more serious things. So some of the campus climate pieces, the WASC pieces, there was a, maybe diversity committee that was working on a diversity statement for the campus that I think we worked on that for a long time and it never got out. But what did get out of that or come out of that work on that committee was the very first Diversity Officer. And so that was Gary Rollinson, who then I think in that. Dowd, spent some time in that. And then, you know, (Willie) “Derrick” Crawford, and then now, you know, there's Arturo Ocampo and then Aswad (Allen, current Chief Diversity Officer). So, I think it was the foundational really for a lot of the diversity work that was happening on the campus. Ho: So, you mentioned when we first started this conversation, you were really a part of a lot of different communities as a kid. So military, you were adopted, which I imagine had a profound impact on your sense of identity and being. And then moving from place to place and having to integrate yourself into these different places. So, do you think that that this childhood experience of--of being maybe different in so many ways from so many different people, had any impact on, on this career that you found yourself in at CSUSM? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 10 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: Oh, I love this question. I don't know. When I was doing my doctoral work there was a pivotal, a quote that has been pivotal to my life. It says, “Everything changes, everything's connected, pay attention.” And I would say to you that while I was trying to figure out what the purpose of my life was going to be, (laughs) working at GEICO, coming to work in outreach, right? Susan Mitchell, who has since passed away, was a great mentor in telling me I was a leader without the position. Like in instilling this belief in me, I would say to you that every experience I had at (CSU) San Marcos prepared me for that role. That my work in outreach and Student Affirmative Action to the Third Word Counseling Association that I talked to you about, to the outreach to the people that I worked with and the value statements to the engagement that I had as a student. Yeah. I mean, all of that. I think you pull from those as tools, right? What I do think helped is I love the community. And I think to your point I don't think even then I understood as a student what it meant to be an African American woman. I don't know that I understood how all of my identities felt, but I did know what it meant to feel like you mattered and belonged, and how to resource and the support on the campus. That even though I'm not first gen(eration), both of my parents went to college, I know I struggled at points. Like, it wasn't until I applied to go to grad school that I realized I pulled my (CSU) San Marcos transcript, and I was like, “Really? I wasn't that bad of a student. Why did I feel like I wasn't a good student?” Like, I literally did not see myself as a good student, right? I was just doing what I needed to do to possibly get out. You know, my GPA ended up like a 3.11, but all the stuff I was doing and the movement and the, you know--but I, I would say to you that I think that sure, I pull on all of that because you want students to have a good experience. And what has happened since then with my research around a concept called Third Space, I do believe it's our role to break down any obstacles and challenges that students have to face. And I think that's the way in which I've approached the work is that sometimes it's, it's our organizational structures that are weeding students out. And that to me is probably the greatest social inequity of all. Ho: Especially on a college campus of all things. Perez: Especially on a college campus. That's supposed to, while we reflect society, we should often we should be a safe space. Ho: Hmm. Perez: I will tell you that during my time, so you're talking when I was director of SLL (Student Life and Leadership), then the Associate Dean, then Dean of Students, right? So all these are kind of merged, but once the Cross-Cultural Center opened, I had the opportunity to partner with John Segoria and Vicki Hernandez to open the Veterans Center. Then the president pulled on a team of us after a list of demands. And I just, I had the opportunity a few years ago to participate in the Latino Resource Center and helping them get started. And that came out of crisis. And so we created that. That I--I was gonna tell you some piece about that, but oh, that Floyd had invited me back, I think, for the 15th year. Or whatever. And when we were opening the Latino Resource Center, some folks thought that as we were having that, I would, I would raise questions. And I said, “If we, if we open a Latino Resource Center (Latin@/X Center), are we ready to open a center for all identities?” Because that's what's gonna happen. And I'm, and, and people thought I was against it, and I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no.” Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 11 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Because if you look, we had started the Cross-Cultural Center because we understood that the intersectionality of all of our identities. And so we were trying to build the model originally off of the value of the intersectionality. Right? And then as life happens in society and on the campus, there was a need. And so the Latino Resource Center, I was like, I'm not against it. I'm just asking are we ready to open additional centers? And to the president's credit, she was, because then the Black Resource Center (Black Student Center) came, the Dreamer Center came, right? And additional centers. And so I will tell you that when he invited me to come back for the 15th year and speak, I wrote a speech that I had to think about because I was like, where am I at? Is it Cross-Cultural Center or is it all the different identity-based centers? And I will tell you, I was at MiraCosta (Community College) at the time, and I wrote in the speech, I said, until we make DEIJ training mandatory across the institution, because the reality is those that choose to come to the trainings do, but those aren't the folks who are making it a chilly spot. Not always discriminatory, but chilly, and making it difficult for students until they are mandated to go to training and they get to opt out. Oh, we best believe we need centers. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: To get rid of all of the isms, to get rid of all the things that are hindering our students. You absolutely need a safe space. And so I am for whatever identity-based center we feel like we need that can validate students, provide the academic and co-curricular support to students all day, every day. So I put that in the speech, right? That at, at the 15th (year) and tell me that the students at MiraCosta got a hold of that speech somehow, and they were trying to fight for a Latino center. And they quoted that speech and plastered it all over campus, because they also feel like if she's saying that we need that there, why wouldn't we need that here? And so, I will tell you, I've shifted my approach, actually. I think cross-cultural is important, but I, I think identity-based centers as we need them, are critically important until we're going to focus on the entire organization and hold everyone accountable to creating student support. You know, it's not, I--I really, quite honestly, you have a choice to believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to, to force people to believe. But what you can't do, or what you won't do is weed a student out because of your beliefs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Or cause an obstacle for a student. That, that we, we need to understand that there are societal injustices, that mirror themselves in our college campuses that we need to mitigate if we're really truly serious about doing this work. Ho: Could you elaborate a bit on--on why identity focused centers are so important and also their relationship to a, a Multicultural Center? Like what, what is, what is the difference, frankly? Perez: Well, I don't know. And I, and I would tell you, I think Floyd's been working on that, right? Because what you probably know is that we had so many discussions in the beginning because the students, it was always busy in the Cross-Cultural Center. But it was our APIDA (Asian-Pacific Islander Desi American) students that were in there and using the space. And so people were like, “Well, you have to have an APIDA center 'cause that's who's in there.” And we had so many conversations in the beginning around how do you diversify the space. Because it's not just about our APIDA students. The reality is it is any student taking territory. Claiming territory. Like what do you do to make sure the space Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 12 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 is, you know, culturally diverse? And at some point, we just gave up quite honestly, because we didn't feel like that was our right to then try and mess with the dynamics. Like create a space where people, if they choose to walk in the door, that they would feel welcome. Does that make sense? But we will not exclude anyone from the spaces like the space. That's what it is here for. And so, I will tell you that I think that I don't know, and I haven't been connected in a very long time, in an in-depth way, if we have ever clearly achieved the, the goal of the intersectionality and how a Cross-Cultural center or could really, really benefit that. I think you would, quite honestly, there's nuances between multicultural and cross-cultural, right? And I think you will play, people don't call, and they may now. Multicultural. And so Multicultural Programs died that, that term. I think I-- and Floyd had it in his title for a while, but I can't remember where that ended up. But I would say to you that I think as we think about the future, that really is the essence. That the identity-based senders, I don't, you can't silo my identity, right? So I am an African-American woman. Does that make sense? I am a military dependent family member. That is a huge, huge part of my identity. I am a woman. Gender Equity Center. I am an ally to LGBTQ. Like, so to think that a student, we can silo the identities of students? But what I will tell you is this, I find community in ways that are authentic to me. So what I love about the identity based, and it's a different idea, is I get to choose which identity I'm (unclear) in those moments. I don't have to pick them, because I do think sometimes in our work, we're back to the melting pot concept, where we're like, “Let's just be all happy and get along.” And we really don't create that space for the uniqueness of our identities to come forward. So what I love about where (CSU) San Marcos is now is honestly, yeah. They were willing to open centers for like, when I was there. There's two other centers popping up, right? You know, what I, what I think is interesting is you have the National Latino Resource Center. And you have the Latino Resource Center (Latin@/X Center), and you have the Dreamers Center. And my question is, how are all of them partnering and working together? And are we creating living learning spaces? Because I will tell you, I don't think you need separate spaces just for belonging. What we need are spaces that allow a student to live and to learn. And often the connection to academic, their academics is critically important. Does that make sense? Like, I will tell you, I do a lot of work around basic needs. This is not a popular statement that I'm about to make, but everything we do for students' basic needs should be connected to them moving forward to achieve their educational goals. Period. If we're not helping a student progress forward or persist, the reality (is) we're not a social service agency. That is not our area of expertise. What we are is, as I see Jennifer as a student, Jennifer has needs, some of them are more immediate, some are more long-term. So, Jennifer, how can I help connect you for your immediate, basic needs, to a community organization? Cal-fresh. Housing. That can help you so that I'm not, I'm, I'm helping you to fish. Not just trying to fix this need right now. Because oftentimes people will say, “Well, Jennifer can't go to school because she has so many life things.” And I'm like, yeah, but the reality is we have to balance, how do we supply the needs? So Jennifer, 'cause that's, that's social mobility for a student. That's what's gonna change a life. That's what, that's what we want. We wanna change our life through helping Jennifer get their degree. Ho: Yeah Perez: Am I preaching to you? But that's what, to me, the crux of what we're doing is, I think every campus is gonna be different, quite honestly. And I think (CSU) San Marcos has found its niche, right? I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 13 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 think when it moved all the identity-based centers into a unit. So that they can collaborate, coordinate, partner. I think it's fabulous. Ho: So do you see do you see a trend with college campuses overall moving from multicultural centers to, to these focused, identity-based? Perez: So I've changed and morphed a little bit too. And I will tell you that it's funny. My, my vision is similar, but different. And I think that's from being at (CSU) San Marcos, but also having the identitybased spaces conversation at MiraCosta Community College, and then Cerritos College, and then now in the system. I would tell you my ideal, which is not new to me. Does that make sense? It's just the model, model that I love, is where you have this cross-- and this kind of was where we had started, but it never got there. Cross-Cultural is the hub, right? But then you would have physical spaces because symbolism matters to identities. But you would have some spaces connected. So you could have your LGBTQIA, you could have Gender Equity, you could have, you know, I'm trying to—Black--you know, all the different centers that aren't necessarily disconnected. The hub is the cross-cultural part. So (California State University) Fullerton, to my understanding, has this model where they have a coordinator for each, but they're all interconnected in their work and in the way they do this. That to me is the ideal quite honestly. I don't think having separate spaces across campuses, across whatever are the ideal. I think having them where there could be a synergy together. I think (CSU) San Marcos is close, right? Because most of them are in the (University Student) Union. They've done a really good job of trying to put everything in the Union. Some are a few out, you know, I used to serve on the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center’s taskforce. And then, you know, I just learned they're working to do a Native Center. And I was like, but you have two, like two spaces, like two, like what's the difference? So, you know, I don't know where it starts or stops. I just think that each campus has to have its hand on the pulse of what their students need. And I think engaging faculty in these spaces matters. You know, that is one of the most critical relationships. Is I've talked about my experiences. You know, it could be a staff member. Absolutely. But your faculty relationships matter. Ho: Yeah. When you were, when you were starting out as this, as the Associate--Associate Director-(Both talking) Perez: Director-Ho: --of Multicultural Spaces, is that correct? Perez: Multicultural Programs. (Both talking) Ho: Multicultural Programs. Perez: Um-huh. Ho: Okay. Thank you. You said you spoke to different people on campus. Did that include students and faculty as well? Perez: Yeah. You know, it--my world was so blended. So the, the, the thing that's a little different at (CSU) San Marcos--so when I left San Marcos in 2016, I would tell you and I give all credit, Lorena, Mesa, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 14 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 and Checka at the time, they threw a phenomenal party. I would tell you mostly faculty were there, right? So the way in which I navigated the campus was really fluid between Student Affairs and Academic Affairs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Yes. I mean, I would tell you, like, can I remember? I--I think I met with Gary Rollinson. I think I remember meeting with advisors. I think students, I don't have the list, obviously. It was 19 years ago. Which is crazy. But yeah, I mean, I think we, we just were more fluid between the organization back then that, yeah, I remember meeting with as many people that would meet with me. Ho: That's great. And did that include students as well? Perez: Yes. But I can't tell you the exact names of the students. Yes. Ho: Oh, that's okay. That's fine. One of my questions on my list here is what did the students say that they wanted? Perez: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's hard for me is what a student would say today and what a student would say in 2004 are very different things. So I think we're, we are more knowledgeable about DEIJ language. And about--I hate to say it this way, but the hatred, the discrimination, the oppression that's in the world. And I think that at the point when we started our work around DEI was still kind of in the--I I hate to say it, in the happy phase. So you know how I said the Latino Center--resource center was built out of crisis, right? And the Black Resource Center, I think a crisis. Veterans Center, not so much. I think it was us being strategic and the community. But the Cross-Cultural Center wasn't built out of a crisis. It was built out of an opportunity to strengthen the student experience and to create a resource for students. So I would say to you that I think students at that point were wanting a sense of community. Does that make sense? Wanting a pla-- a space. So space, which we gave. They wanted the celebratory aspects. Like we talked about the Powwow, and I don't know if the powwow has come back to San Marcos. It was huge, the Powwow, huge, huge! It took months to plan those things. So I went in as the University Liaison to the groups to help them plan that. Gala GATSA for the Oaxacan community. I was on the Gala GATSA community. I remember sitting in the back and, and I think this is me and CrossCultural Center, literally (laughs). I had never been to a Gala GATSA before. It was five thousand people! Do you hear me? Five thousand. We, this was, these were huge community events. I was sitting in the back next to and Humberto Garcia, (Jr.). I don't know if he's still there in risk managing--manager. Girl, they threw whole pineapples and cantaloupes through the audience. I'm literally standing there and I was like, is that, is that a whole pineapple? That's a tradition in the, like, in that, you know. But so for us, I think it was more of just really being there to support students. It wasn't until I became a dean, quite honestly, and I got into to the associate director (position) that I started tackling some of those more difficult, sensitive--it was probably director on that, that I was in those conversations that were tackling some of the discrimination that was happening on campuses. You know, there were many conversations where faculty members were saying and doing things that they shouldn't be saying or doing that I as a dean or you know, would say, you can't, that's, you can't do that (laughs). Like, no. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 15 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 We had a faculty member that were, they were very upset about students and their perception of, and they tried to kick students out of the class. And you know, I went in and the faculty member literally when I went in and said, “What the f are you doing here?” And I was like, “You have a right to an advocate and so do students. And so I'm here as a student advocate.” And so we had the conversation and that faculty member said, “You're wasting my effing time.” And just so you're, you're taught if I'm dealing with this! If, if I'm dealing with this as an administrator, and, and mind you, that person was a person of color that said this, it was not, you know, so I--I don't want to send the wrong, it was a person of color. That, you know, and there's a, a story that I've told, and I'll, I know it's seven (o’clock), but I, there's a story that I, I've told publicly. So I started the, it was the Celebration of Culture. 'Cause we used to do it a lot. The Celebration of Culture in the beginning. And so it was, I think an acknowledgement and recognition, of the work that was being done on the campuses. And I was--we had a first Amendment issue that happened when I was an administrator. And we had a controversial speaker that was on campus that was very discriminatory. And we called a meeting and we had a conversation. And in this meeting were a whole bunch of administrators. And someone was giving examples and they said, well, Dilcie, if you--someone called you the N word--and used the word--we wouldn't, you know, this is what would happen or whatever. And then they went to, if someone called you a whore. And then they went to me. And I didn't realize how upset I was getting in this meeting. And the person that was sitting next to me put their hand on my lap and stop me, just help stop me from shaking. And they said, “Can we stop using Dilcie as the example?” And the person said, “I didn't know if Dilcie was Black. I thought she was a hot-headed Puerto Rican.” And mind you, I was an administrator on the campus. Administrator on campus. And finally someone had enough sense to say, “We need to end this meeting.” So we all went our separate ways. And the next morning went in the meeting and I just, I just, I, I was so upset. So, so, so upset. And so they said, you know, we're gonna have this person, you know, apologize, whatever. And so the person came and gave me a half-baked apology. And so a year, a couple years went by. And they came and asked me to do the keynote for, it was, it must have been Celebration of Culture or something at the time. I can't remember. And I decided that one, I would never share who the person was 'cause that wasn't important, but that we were gonna tell the story. And so publicly, in front of 250 people, Executive Council, we did a split screen. And so the person who served as my ally in that moment, and me had a screen between us and we told the story of what happened that day. And with the point of, you never know when you're gonna need an ally. And you never know, even as an administrator, if it can happen to an administrator, it can happen to a student. And so, (CSU) San Marcos, we say that we're inclusive and that we value these things? We need to, we need to be serious about it. Right? And so at the end of the speech, the room did not move, Jennifer. It was silent. And I thought, oh no, I've lost my job. Like I, it is not good. And all of a sudden it broke out into applause and the room stood up and everybody was so happy. And I received so much support, quite honestly, for that. And the president called me, she said, “Is there anything I need to do?” And I was like, “No.” Like, “I just needed you to hear, there's nothing, thank you. Nothing.” And so a few years later they said, “Dilcie, we're gonna have to put you on a team with this person.” And I was like, “No buddy, no, you're not.” And they said, “Yeah, like, we have no choice.” And I said, “Let them say one dumb thing. I'm telling you I'm not putting up with it. I'm not mess--like one dumb thing.” And this person, and I served on this team together for about a year and a half, two Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 16 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 years. And about after a year of us working together, we were sitting in my office on a, working on a tough case. And they said, “I just want to truly, truly apologize for what happened. I'm sorry. I was ignorant. I didn't know any better. I know better now. I'm very sorry.” To that point, that individual and I are exceptionally close to this day. I have been to their home, have been to events at their house. He knows not to say those dumb things anymore. But he, there is, there is--there is restoration in some of those things. There is forgiveness, there is learning, there is growth. Does that make sense? And so I share that very long story to say that when I think about (CSU) San Marcos is at the core of, no matter what happens at the Cross-Cultural Center, at the identity based cen-it's relation, it is about relationships. When students were picketing over, some things happened at the campus. The president had the reports to the community. And I went out and I was on the picket line with the students. And someone got back to me that someone said, “I don't like Dilcie. 'Cause she's out there picketing with the students.” No, I wasn't, I was making sure the students had their right to use their voice and that it didn't impact the event, but they had a right to be there. And so let's do that in a way that's supportive of them. Right? When the abortion people came, they may still come with the big signs. (Perez holds hands up over her head) We sat down and had a team and said, “Here's the deal. You're gonna have protestors. Let's manage it accordingly.” I remember putting blue tape right down the middle and said, “Here's the space (laughs), and here's your space. Have at it be respectful.” Be--and I walked down and supported both sides as they did those things. Because I think to me while -- and I think a lot of people on the campus believe this -- while we want to be protected from hateful language, the reality of this is the world that we live in. And what we have to do is create a space where all voices can be heard. Ho: Uh-huh. Perez: And you have a right to safety. You absolutely do, but you don't have a right to be unoffended. Because I will tell you that in the first days of (CSU) San Marcos, there were all kinds of speakers that came that I didn't necessarily agree with. But what I loved is being exposed to ideas that were different than mine that helped to validate. Or invalidate my thought process that made me think about what I believed and didn't believe. That to me is the essence of higher education. That's where I think a CrossCultural Center, it's not that you say everything that's popular or bring one side and one belief. You have to be balanced. Ho: Thank you so much for sharing those stories and those memories. They really provide context to what the campus was. And a lot of it is behind the scenes that people wouldn't know, wouldn't expect. Especially students going about their day to day. So thank you for doing that. (both talking) Perez: That's right. There is, I mean, I think they can't, that (CSU) San Marcos is not a perfect place. But what I will say to you is I have, I have the opportunity to view all twenty-three (CSU campuses) now, and I’m oh so appreciative of the DEIJ, the Cross-Cultural Center, the work that's happening at San Marcos in this area. Yeah. Ho: You've mentioned some names of people that you've worked with, people you appreciate, are there, who are some more people that were really important to the Cross-Cultural Center that we might not know about? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 17 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: I--if you haven't talked to Jonathan Pollard, I think you should find him. He was the Dean of Students at the time who, who really said we're gonna make this happen. And he was part of that with Bridget (Blanshan) that did the 2010. And I think he had the original vision for it. So I would, I think he is part of that. I think, you're gonna ask me and I--Janet Perez-Covacevich, I have to think she was the first student assistant in that space. Ho: Hey, I was gonna ask you about your, that student assistant. Perez: Janet Perez. First, and let me give you her number 'cause I know it by heart from even back then. Ho: Okay. Let's do that via email. Okay. And not on this recording. Yeah. (both talking) Perez: Sure. So I can share that with you. And then Sida Munoz, I, she was in the center. She works at (CSU) San Marcos now. She was in the center in the very beginning a lot. I think sleeping and having space, but she partnered and volunteered a lot. We also added the Cross-Cultural Center and Multicultural Programs did the very first alternative spring break for the campus. So that was part of the work that we did that first year where we took students to San Francisco to the Glide to do work in the community. So that's a little tangential, that was more from the Multicultural programs. But it, all of that was flowing out of that space for sure. Ho: Thank you. Perez: You probably have most everybody else 'cause you have all the directors and everyone that worked there, right? Ho: Yeah. Floyd's reached out to--Floyd reached out to a lot of people. So we have-Perez: Yeah-- (both talking) Ho: --A lot of folks responding. Perez: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Ho: Including himself. Yeah. (both laugh) Perez: As he, as he should, he's done a marvelous job. Very proud. (both talking) Ho: Yeah. He really has. Perez: Yeah. Ho: I--how are we doing on time? Perez: I probably could give you a few more minutes and then yeah, head out. Are you clo-- are you good or do you have more? Ho: Yeah, I really would like to know a little bit more about you mentioned this concept of the third space. Could you tell me more about that in general or, and or as it relates to CSUSM? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 18 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: Sure. So during, you know, as folks try and figure out what they're studying and researching, I was exposed and I came, can't even tell you how to, a concept by Homi Bhabha in The Location of Culture that talks about when an individual transitions from one culture to the next, what they do is they take the unique strengths and characteristics of each of those cultures. So take the greatness, the goodness, and then make a third space out of it. And so my work is around breaking down the organizational silos between Academic Affairs and Student Affairs, particularly with the research. But I will say to you that I think that spaces like the Cross-Cultural Center, like identity-based centers are examples of third spaces where you take the unique strengths of faculty and Academic Affairs and the unique strengths of Student Affairs, and you put 'em together. And so the spaces could be, you know could be literally or figuratively. And so for me, as you think about the center space, these are, these should be third spaces where we blend both the best of both worlds. So that's the way in which I approach the work in my daily work, quite honestly, is that students don't care about our organizational silos. They really don't. And so how can we create more seamless, holistic experiences for students? Ho: Um-hmm. Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Could you tell us what you, what you do now at-Perez: In my current role? Ho: In your current role? Yes. (Perez laughs) Perez: So--so I left (California State University) San Marcos in 2016. I went to be the Dean of Student Life and Judicial Affairs at MiraCosta (Community College). So I was there two years. And then with my boss, who's amazing at the time, thought that I should consider being a vice president of student services. And so I left MiraCosta after two years and became the VP of Student Services and Associate Superintendent at Cerritos College. And so I was there almost four years. And then someone approached me about this job, which is, which was the Associate Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs, Equity and Belonging in the CSU. Right? So really my work now is to bring--is, well, it's hard, but. So I work with all the diversity officers in the system. So I love that, quite honestly, on the system. And so it's been helpful because I have experience doing some of that work and so helpful to highlight the wonderful and important work that they're doing. But my role changed. So I--I am almost been here a year, but I was promoted to Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs. And so that was May 1st, but I will be the acting co-executive vice chancellor for the system for all of academic and student affairs. I know it's hard to keep up with. It's we, but it's movement. And so this position will, will really work with the presidents, provosts, and vice presidents. And the funny part is that Nathan Evans, I don't know if you know that name, he is a codeputy, but he worked with me at San Marcos. So we started our relationship there. And so people, the chancellor has seen how well we work together, and so we both were promoted to co-lead the division. Ho: That's wonderful. Well, congratulations on your, on your promotion. Perez: Thank you. It's a lot to take in. I, it's, I'm very humbled by it. But it's a, it's a big gig, so. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 19 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Yeah. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Cool. I guess we could start wrapping up. Are there any memories or stories or anything that you'd like to share from your CSUSM days? Perez: No, I think I've shared a lot of wonderful memories. I mean, I think of--despite challenges, there really were some pivotal moments that framed me as personally and professionally. When you asked about it, I remember we were trying to beautify the center and Jay Franklin, I think was serving as an interim during that time. And we did a mural and I don't know if you know about the mural, but we came on a Saturday and it was a community mural. And it's so funny because the mural was hanging in the Cross-Cultural Center for years, and finally we were like, it's time to get rid of it. I was like, just let it go. And Floyd would not. And so it's hanging in the College of Humanities, Arts and Behavioral Sciences. The first Cross-Cultural (Center) mural is in that conference room. He had it moved there. And so I, I love that the campus is, I'm telling you, there were no obstacles. And I think that I will tell you that while I know that everyone is not for DEIJ work, that everyone at San Marcos is not for it, I do think that we have tried to address challenges and obstacles in a collaborative, supportive way to start. But I do think that as, as the work continues kind of the way in which we started the rah rah and the hooray, we can't remember, we can't forget, the essence of the work is really in addressing the social injustices that unfortunately have infiltrated their way onto our college campuses. That to me is the essence of the work: is we should be building students up and not tearing them down. We should be beacons of light and hope for societies that are uninterested in confronting the social injustices that have significantly, disproportionately impacted many marginalized populations. That should not be okay. That should not be okay. That if we are telling a student, we want you to come here, we need to do everything that we can to help them be successful. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yes. Ho: That was beautifully said and I appreciate it. I also want to come back to that mural. Could you, in case nobody else in their interviews have talked about it, could you give me a little bit of info on it just so we have it for the record? Perez: Yeah. So it is interesting. The mural we knew we needed, so somebody else in another department, and I think it may have been CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program), had brought an artist to the campus and talked to us about them doing this mural. For their, for their program. So Jay (Franklin) and I and Dick said, “We wanna do that.” So we paid to have the artists come. And it was a Saturday, and I think it was in U(niversity) Hall, outside U Hall 100. We all were there. And he takes you through this process of where you're thinking about community, thinking about what you want, and then you each had like a sliver of the panel that you did. And I can't remember if he, he must have drawn an outline, I'm guessing, if I remember correctly. And if you see it, there's so many vibrant colors, so many vibrant colors. And I actually think we need to pull it and take pictures and document even more. Floyd probably has access to 'em because I can see, I just remember when I would walk around the room and see what Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 20 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 people put, you were like, oh! And look at you (laughs). Right? But it represented the sense of community that was involved with the creation of the space. You have to remember, Cross-Cultural Center was there before any of the other centers. Ho: Yeah. Perez: It was the first, unless maybe not, maybe, and we have to confirm, National Latino Research Center may have been around. As a research institute base. But Cross-cultural Center, before all the centers, there was a Cross-Cultural Center that set the foundation for those to come. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: So I would say to you that when you look at it, you'll see just the, the diversity, the tapestry of our community at the time. There's so many things in that mural. So you should go see it. So many things in that mural. Ho: Okay, thank you. (both talking) Perez: I haven't seen it in a few years, but definitely check the mural. 'Cause that we did that probably, maybe I came back in 2006, so maybe 2007, 2008. So that was about four years after we opened. So we're celebrating twenty years (of the CCC being open), right? I'm trying to think, is coming up. So we're, I came to the fifteen, I think he's (Floyd Lai) getting to twenty, so it's, so March, they should count March as kind of the opening, I'm guessing. Ho: Yeah, I think it is March. Perez: It was 2004. He's right, it was March 2004 when I started it. Yeah. Ho: Okay. Perez: So I think that that, that, that mural was really a great you know, I'm, I saw Chanel Bradley and um Gerardo Cabral, he, I'm sure some of the other folks, they're on Facebook and saw them. Diana Sal-Saldivar. I mean these were like the OGs of, and you know what I will tell you is I think that then for a while, students came and went like they were good and pivotal, right? But it was different when you were in the beginning. But I see Floyd recently 'cause I'm still on Facebook with some, and it's like, looks like they have a strong sense of community amongst the, the peer educators. And Floyd brought the interns. And so that has made the difference too especially with resources. I do remember as a director advocating for that space though. You know, I'm pretty proud of how we set that space up. There, there was a lot of political navigation in that and took, you know, a lot of collateral and 'cause you know, there people were vying for space, right? But we had a reputation. And in the negotiations, you see we did pretty good. We gave up some of the physical space on the inside to get the patio on the outside (laughs) like when you think there was a lot of strategy in, in the space and how we navigated those pieces. You gotta remember too – now you're bringing up all these memories for me – the, the Multicultural Programs was started with a lottery grant. Lottery. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 21 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: (unclear) mean? Perez: So lottery funds, we had to apply for lottery funds. And they were only supposed to be for like two to three years to get you started. So we had to write a lottery application to get it started, to get, to have funding, to have any programming money. Ho: Oh my goodness. I did not know that. Perez: And then I started making some interesting deals across campus to get other funds. Some we probably don't wanna record, but it got access to, to some, you know. And then, oh, and then before I left, I--oh, I forgot about this! So do you, do they still have co-curricular funds? The pro-- you can apply for co-curricular funds? Ho: I think so. Perez: I worked that deal. And so I had told Bridget (Blanshan), I was like, “We need to stop everybody from going all over getting funds. We need to get the funds.” And so by the time I came back, they had co-- Bridget had co-curricular funds. And so we had this process for co-curricular funds. And then Tukwut Life. This is outside. So in Tukwut Life, this, I did a deal with the president's office on Tukwut Life. 'Cause The president's husband came to me and said, “You need to start some campus traditions.” And so Tukwut Life was part of that. Ho: How did you, did you create Tukwut Life? Was that an original-Perez: With a whole bunch of people. We sure did. Absolutely. Tukwut Life. (both talking) Ho: That's awesome. Perez: We sure did. And I think it's died down a little bit since then, but oh, it was a whole movement. Oh. Ho: What was it? What was Tukwut Life? Perez: It was Friday night and weekend programming so that to make sure that we had night and weekend programs for students because we were increasing the number of residents and we didn't have a lot of community at the time, right? And so we knew we needed some community. Athletics was coming on board in a greater way than it was. And so, and so this is all, this is tangential to the CrossCultural Center. I don't know who I thought I was. I really don't. I think I just didn't ask permission. And we were just a different campus then. I don't know. I was telling someone the other day, I--I'm sure we had policies and procedures. I know we did. But I literally, one day when I was trying to create tradition on, you know, Tukwut Courtyard--I, you know, those stickers on the window, I was the first one to put all those stickers on the window. You know how it has the, oh. And then I plastered the stairs with, with CSU Gear. I had a professional company come out. I don't know who I asked. Like I was trying to think like, “Did you ask anyone? Like who told you you could do?” No, I was gonna create Tukwut Courtyard as a spirit courtyard. I, we held a Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 22 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 pep rally there. But literally I had stairs and, you know, we used to get, I get real happiness, students would come take pictures at commencement time with their family around those, those pictures, yeah. Ho: Um-Hm. Perez: And, but then I couldn't put the stickers up anymore 'cause the concrete's old. So then we had to get rid of them, so we couldn't do that anymore. So then I had to go think about something else. Umhmm. I don't know who I thought I was. I just need you to know. I like, now everything's so bureaucratic, right? No. We just did stuff, we did what we needed to do. Ho: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you just have to not think about it and just do it. Perez: And I, the campus was gracious to me. I also wasn't doing dumb stuff. Right. I was doing things that, but I don't know where I—all of a sudden woke up one day and I was like, I couldn't, I'm hiring a company, put some stickers on some stairs. Ho: Yeah. (inaudible) Perez: But I think that with the Cross-Cultural Center, why it worked, is that I didn't have to always ask permission. I did--I knew what I was advocating for and the campus was gracious enough to entertain that. And I think I had enough credibility at that point that they trusted me. Ho: Yeah. I think so. Perez: I don't think everything's perfect. I probably could have documented stuff better. Literally like when I look at what Alexis did and you, I was like, I was, I was just doing the rah rah fun part. Getting it started. The sustaining it is the hard part, right? So I know what I've learned about myself as a professional. I'm great at starting things like I can get a vision going. Like Cross-Cultural Center that changed and redefined--I would not be here today had it not been for the work in Multicultural Programs (inaudible). I would not, it changed--that one decision to join that team changed the trajectory of my life and my career. Ho: That's really cool. Perez: I'm, I'm pretty grateful. Pretty, I am proud of the Cross-Culture Center. I'm proud of the way Floyd (Lai) has led it. I'm proud and I'm not trying to be funny. I'm proud it has stayed controversy free (laughs). I think it has done important work in really kind, meaningful relational ways. Floyd's out there doing DEIJ work, he just does it differently than someone that's out there yelling and screaming. His work that he's doing in that center, you look at what that center has done – as you are (laughs) – for the campus. He, he has that--each of the directors, I think has added and put their nuance and their flair on that center. And I'm internally grateful that 20 years later I am proud to be connected and associated with such great work. Ho: It really does feel like a center of, of love and acceptance. It's really a beautiful, a really beautiful place. And you can, you can see that from anybody that you, you talk to. They all love the Cross-Cultural Center. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 23 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: It is. And it really is. And he has just furthered that vision. Like we started with that. But the population, like you have to think, we only had, I don't know when I left, I don't even know, maybe 7,000 students at that, at the time when I left, you know, once. And then came back and we grew like in, you know, seven years to 15,000. That's, that center has stayed tried and true. Tried and true. So what that tells me is I, yeah, we set a great foundation but the folks that came thereafter have really done a magnificent job and created a legacy for that case. Sara Sheik, I think about what she added, you know, that's where the Social Justice Summit was started. We were all there. I don't know if they told you. We were sitting there and we felt like people were too much in their heads. Oh, they were just, they, it was outside of them. Outside of them. And we were like, no, no, no. I remember sitting on the swing there and we were like, we gotta do something. So then we created the exercise madder than Hell. Mad as Hell. And we wanted to get them to their hearts. And we did that exercise Mad as Hell. Scott Gross. Scott Gross and I started, Sara Sheikh came in, we created that Mad as Hell exercise. They're probably still not doing it 'cause it seemed like we had controversy at every Social Justice Summit. But we were doing that work with students. And honestly, I went through a training not too long ago and they were doing equity work and I was like, “Uh, we were doing this with students, like first-year students in 2005. And you're literally taking people through this right now? This is outdated work. What are talking about?” Then I think about the students at San Marcos? They were getting that in their first year. You tell me how much different and how transformative that would be for them coming out their senior year. Ho: Yeah. Perez: I'm inspired and moved. Ho: That's great. That's so awesome. Perez: You just made me excited about the Cross-Cultural Center even more. Ho: Wait, say that again? Perez: I said, “You just made me so excited about the Cross-Cultural Center.” Ho: I, I'm really happy and I feel like I'm supposed to wrap up this interview, but I'm afraid that you'll think of more great memories to share and things to say. I don't wanna cut us off. Perez: Yeah. Well here's the thing. I will let you know if some things come up that I think are important, I'll reach out to you and let you know. 'Cause I--I'm, I am so grateful that you all are doing this. I think it is a really critical part of San Marcos and its history. Not just as a center, but in DEIJ work. For sure. Ho: Absolutely. Yeah. And the stories from people who were there, who started these movements and experienced them and made them happen are really important. 'Cause they're not always documented on paper. Perez: Yeah. I didn't do that very well. And I'm sure others, (Ho laughs) we were, we were hustling. We were hustling for sure. Right. So, but we did it. Ho: That's great. Yeah. And we have the proof of it now, celebrating the anniversary coming up. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 24 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: That’s exciting. I'm excited for you. So, well, it's nice to meet you. I hope that we, I just did an official visit there a few months ago, but hope we have the chance to meet in person. Ho: I hope so too! Thank you Dr. Perez. I will go ahead and end the interview now. Perez: Wonderful. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 25 2024-01-26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Perez, Dilcie. Interview transcription, May 30th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Dilcie Perez is Deputy Vice Chancellor, Academic and Student Affairs for the CSU, as well as a California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) alumna. She graduated with her degree in Bachelors of Arts in Political Science. In this interview, Perez explains how CSUSM was ahead of its time in regards to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) work; however at the beginning of her employment with CSUSM, the university did not have Multicultural Programs (the predecessor to the Cross-Cultural Center). Perez recalls her work with Multicultural Programs, including her being offered the opportunity to open the program upon tendering her resignation to the university. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dilcie Perez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Geneva Martinot Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-05-30 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University. Multicultural Programs California State University San Marcos. Student Academic Services Outreach Program California State University San Marcos. Student Affirmative Action Education, Higher Human rights Mural painting and decoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-43 Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e721d1cd7dda1d7fcf17f30300ce3e80.pdf 47e89b7891da9bb8f9d88de16560a121 PDF Text Text FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the CrossCultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan. So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers. And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 1 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 2 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM CrossCultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened. There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 3 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the CrossCultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more--trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 4 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe & Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe & Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 5 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) butLai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 6 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around, um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 7 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less-It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 8 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin@/x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know, like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 9 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin@/x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 10 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin@/x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 11 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation-particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 12 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 13 2024-02 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview transcript, April 10, 2023. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Education, Higher Human rights Racism -- California -- Irvine Student Success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en " target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_Transcript Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/359f5ef004ef9f5cb67d3fe184e762f6.pdf 7724afdb765683fbb93150f5ec6d7e48 PDF Text Text GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development Test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the, two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that --Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very, viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin@/x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the CrossCultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing oncampus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head. (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So , I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, You gotta remain active on campus. This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the, sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had, leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, where everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin(@/x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-10-30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview transcript. March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. This interview was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from California State University San Marcos's Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29 Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aaron Williams Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Merryl Goldberg OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. music;activism;arts education;censorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-078 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/263b2399055fdac2b7ee4b09862c9925.pdf c057803dbcbcd7c0815a75f8fc024020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview transcript, April 9, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_transcript Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2ec9076e1d55c0a2899af8cdc2860b9a.pdf 7ee6f12c111c3a0a9ea3acd52a996909 PDF Text Text SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant here at CSU (California State University) San Marcos with Kellogg Library’s Special Collections Department. I'm joined here today by Sarah Sheikh-Arvizu. The date is March 30th, 2023, and the time is 10:36 A.M. So today we're going to be focusing on Sarah's involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, especially as it pertains to her stint as the Associate Director of Programs at the Cross-Cultural Center. So Sarah, thank you for joining me today. To start things off, I actually wanted to take things back a little bit. My first question is more about your background in the field, and I wanted to know when you decided to make social justice a focal point of your career. Sara Sheikh-Arvizu: I, it's a great question. Thank you. I'm happy to be here and be part of this project. For me, you know, to get-- jump right into your question, I wanted social justice to be the center of my work and my work life, since I was in college. I, there's a training that stood out to me. When I first became a student staff member on my own undergraduate campus. I was gonna be starting working in housing, and there was a diversity training which feels so regular and normal now, that's just part of what training involves. And it was at the time for me as well. But there was something that happened in that training that I felt like, “You know, I wanna be in this work and I want to do better.” I, it was a training that was focused on race, and what happened was they asked us to split up into two different spaces. A space for white folks and a space for folks of color, and I being mixed race, and there was about five or six other folks also, all sort of like walked up to the people who were facilitating, who were not directly our staff members, as another organization who came in to do this training, and asked “Where do we go? We don't fit into either one of these spaces.” And for us, we were looking for an answer and also validation. We were also offering to create our own space and asking if we could do that. And we weren't given permission to do that. We were told to choose one of those spaces, and that was a choice that I feel like I shouldn't have been asked to make. None of the five or six of us should have been asked to make. And honestly, I didn't want other folks to have to choose something like that in their experience on a college campus. So that really was like the moment that I wanted to be part of social justice work. It was honestly that moment in college. De Maria: Very, very interesting. And from then on, what sorts of organizations or activities did you involve yourself in, to kind of further that goal? And then also where did you attend undergraduate studies? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah so, my undergrad was at UC (University of California) Irvine, and other things I got involved with, some of it was just about learning for me. So, some of the things I got involved with were taking classes that were in gender studies, queer studies, and just learning more about what else was going on, right? Learning more about how we socially work together? You know, what does oppression look like? And kind of exploring and unpacking that. I think for me, other spaces that I was trying to get connected to and involved with was the LGBTQ Center on our campus. And so, I did a(n) internship there, connected to research. That was what my program, it was a requirement of my program as well, but I chose that as the place to do my site study. And then, and then just creating those spaces. So I, beyond my undergrad, the other places that I sought to be connected, education was always really important to me. And so, whenever I attended conferences as a professional, that was, I really focused all of the sessions I went to on learning more about folks that were different from me, had different identities than myself. So, I was drawn to topics about transgender students. I was drawn to topics Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 1 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 about equity and how to measure and set out plans. So, like my (laughs) and my interest was wide. I wanted to, I tried to attend a lot of panels where folks were kind of sharing their stories or insight or, advice as it related to their identity. It was something that I felt like I needed to hear, but I also felt very validated in hearing those stories and really taking those on as something like, they were not my stories to take on, but they were the knowledge from what people were sharing I could take on and I could apply in other ways. De Maria: That's very, very profound, and look, talking about your background, I also know that you have your masters. Of course, you are quite educated, and you've emphasized a lot about the learning aspect of social justice and being a participant that way. So, I wanna shift gears here and start talking about your professional career, post education. I know that you were also a program coordinator at Chapman (University) prior to joining the Cross-Cultural Center. So, I just wanted to walk you through, or walk me through some of the major projects that you led there. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. (clears throat) Excuse me. Yeah, so I was at Chapman. That was my first professional job outside of undergrad and graduate school. And so, some of the projects that I focused on, so I was in the Office of Social Justice. So honestly, as a young professional it felt amazing to have a job where social justice was actually in the title of my position. I felt like it's what I was seeking. And what I found out when I was there was that they needed a lot of foundational work. So, something to really be a launching point for this Office of Social Justice. And so, what I did there was really try to figure out, “Okay, well what are the cornerstones of this office of the work?” And working directly with students to do that. For me, something that was a program that was well developed but was handed kind of, I don't know whether to say back to me or quote unquote my position or handed to me to lead, was a Safe, the Safe Space Training Program. So that was a program that I was kind of gifted. And for me, I wanted to expand it, expand the reach of that program, expand the depth of what that program could offer, with regard to training and education and visibility. And so, that was a focus area of what I tried to develop. So, to increase the committee that was really working on the safe space trainings and initiatives. We added a train the trainer component so that there were more trainers on campus and it wasn't, you know, focused on just three people doing every training for the whole campus. You know, rotating through, over and over. And then we increased the number and the types of trainings that we offered. So it wasn't, it wasn't solely like a-- essentially at the time LGBT101; really going over definitions and some case study work and unpacking bias and things like that. (We) started to do more trainings in addition to that, which was, which was amazing. And then other foundational pieces of the Office of Social Justice. Some of the work that students really wanted to do was have these landmark programs where they could keep doing it and build from every year, which I thought was a great foundation-setter. So, some of the programs that I remember starting there and then doing a few times in my time there (at Chapman), was we called it Reel Justice, R-E-E-L. So focused on films, right? So, exploring social justice through films. It was a film week, and we were showing films that were not, that were kind of along the lines of a theme. And something that was really unique that I loved that our students put into this was connecting with-- at Chapman there's an excellent film program where students are developing and creating and directing their own, producing their own films. So that was part of the Reel Justice program. Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 2 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 Another one was a Peace and Earth Fair. So, it was also working with students who were in their student government, on a team called the Awareness Team. And so, they were also charged with doing programs that were more along the lines of awareness, raising awareness about justice was really the focus there. And so, they wanted to do a Peace and Earth Fair. And so, what was really cool about the way that they wanted to approach it, and they were kind of willing to explore was how do you align the purpose of the program with the process of the program? So, you know, if it's a Peace and Earth Fair and we're really focusing on earth justice, what kind of, what are we using? What are we, we're having tables out there, are we covering those tables with tablecloths? Are we covering them with something that we're gonna, you know, throw away? No! (laughs) So, really like going and going the extra mile to do research of, you know, how can we align this? How can we really show what this program is about in the way that we do it just as much as what's done. And then something that, two things that I was kind of proud of as well, that I think set the tone was starting to explore doing dialogue circles. So, something that I was hearing from more than more than a handful, particularly of white students, was saying, “I don't feel like I can be part of this conversation, this conversation about diversity, this conversation about equity, this conversation about social justice.” And my take is everyone can be part of this conversation and should be. And so, I created a dialogue circle that was really focused on opening space where folks could join, and be part of a conversation together. And it's really simple (laughs) in its, I don't know, in its purpose, was to just have this space. So, we put it out there, we collected people's schedules cause I didn't want schedules to be the thing that, you know, made people not able to participate in this conversation. We had a nine, it was like a nine or ten p.m. (laughs) dialogue circle that folks committed to, 'cause that's, those were the times that they were available and they were putting out there of like, “I wanna do it at this time.” And whew, as a non-student I was like, not exactly ready for a nine p.m. (laughs) dialogue. But that's when folks were available and wanted to participate. So, we did that and it really was just coming together in a circle, setting an intention and having this conversation where everybody was, could come and participate, and feel that sense of belonging to this conversation, belonging to this ideal of social justice. So those are some things that we tried to put together. I'm sure that there are more, but those are the ones that really stand out to me. De Maria: Very cool. And all of that sounds very foundational, so that's really awesome to hear. From that, I want to transition to discussing your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, I just wanted to ask, what led you to the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM, and why did you choose to depart from Chapman? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, so the opportunity came about like any opportunity does. I wasn't necessarily looking for anything, but you know, saw something come through just on a, on a listserv (computerized list utilized by organizations to email advertisements). And so, I looked at it. Something that Chapman did not have at the time was a Cross-Cultural Center. There was no physical space. Even the Office of Social Justice that I was the program coordinator for, it was an office. It was my office with a door and a window, and that was it and my desk. So, there was no concept of that physical space. Community Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 3 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 looked very different, and ways to commune, to come together. It really was, you had to plan an event for people to come together. And so, I was really seeking to be in a space like that. Like the CrossCultural Center was named C3 at the time, (laughs) at Cal State San Marcos. And that's what I was seeking. There were, it was just a different kind of opportunity, a different way to build foundation and different kinds of opportunities as well. When I came in for my interview, you know I really was, I was taken aback in a very good way. Something that Dilcie (Perez), who was overseeing the (Cross-Cultural) Center and the Director of Student Life and Leadership at the time, something she wove into the interview, her interview with me, and I'm sure other candidates applying for the position was: “You know, we are a bit of pioneers here, so what does that look like for you?” And honestly, being asked that question just gave me a sense of there's opportunity here. There's an ability to have a vision, set a vision, and go for it. And I was really excited by that. I was excited that I was asked to think about that at an interview, not just when you know I, the day I started or whatnot. And that students were very much a center of the work. So, those things stood out to me. Different kind of opportunity and everything. Everything else that when people go for job interviews, all that excitement, energy that was there. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing that I'm kind of getting from our conversation is this theme of kind of laying down foundational work for others to build off of. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, that just gives me a little bit of insight about you and is also very inspiring. I want you to take me back to 2008 and just describe the social climate of CSU San Marcos at the time. I know that you're quoted in The Pride, the CSUSM newspaper, as kind of giving a little blurb about Facebook and the advent of social media with regards to organizing. And then, you also, or during that time, it was also the beginning of, essentially the beginning of the Obama administration. Sheikh-Arvizu: Right. De Maria: So again, just reiterating on the social climate of the campus. What was that like? What were you facing when you got into the role? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, what was I facing when I got into the role? I think this is maybe less on the social climate, but also the professional climate that I was kind of stepping into as well. I think folks were feeling like: we're doing this work and it's not seen. And we're tired. It's so hard. We're not given, there's not a lot of resources and, or resources are hard to come by, you know whatever that looks like. And so, so I felt like there-- resources could be money, resources could be space, resources could be knowledge about, you know, what these centers could offer. So, a lot of different things when I say resources. And so, I think that there was a sense of, there's a lot of students who wanna feel like they belong, but don't quite feel like they belong. That's my sense of what the social climate, cultural climate really felt like. And I think in addition to that, there was sense of there's not enough of us, us in it. And again, there could be lots of definitions of “us.” There's not, there's not enough queer students, there's not enough students of color, there's not enough Black students specifically, to really feel like our voices are being Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 4 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 heard and seen and understood. And, you know, I love statistical data. And I also feel like stats are not everything. Because if you take stock, do a survey, do a you know climate some kind of climate survey, which we did, and the numbers come back; again just you know statistically, when a population is only one, two, three percent of the whole population or the everyone who took the survey, it's quote unquote not statistically significant. However, that does not mean that people's experiences are not significant. They most certainly are. And if we continue to move those experiences aside because they are not, quote unquote the majority, and as a group they never will be, because that's not the majority of people who are at Cal State San Marcos or so many places. So, I think that people were actually like feeling that. They were experiencing in real ways what, how we talk about data. I think that folks were experiencing that as people, right? They were feeling like they were not significant enough to the university or in their classroom. And I wanna balance that with, you know, it didn't mean-- there were a lot of folks that cared, but I think it was just a sense of like we're, we're here but people aren't listening, or people don't care. And we need change. And yet more people than quote unquote the “us” didn't see it. So yeah, that's what I feel like (laughs) the climate was. And I think for me as a professional, the other thing that I saw is that there were a lot of folks that were trying hard, I think that I said that at the beginning. They were trying really hard. They were putting a lot of effort in. And so for me, what I felt like I was seeing was all these individual spaces or people were trying really hard, but they weren't connecting. And so that is specifically what I came in feeling like, okay, this is what I wanna do (laughs). I wanna make some connections. I wanna work together. Because this sense of, if we all have this sense that we're not being, we're not strong enough or our voice isn't loud enough, or people aren't hearing us, or we know that we matter, but we don't feel like we belong, what can we do about that? And so, for me it was really important to start to make connections, work together, come together, develop programs together, (laughs) so that that voice is a collective voice. De Maria: I see. And thank you for kind of outlining the challenges that you faced stepping into the role kind of as it related to what I mentioned with the social climate. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, similar to my question about your experience at Chapman, I'd love to hear about some of your proudest accomplishments for the Cross-Cultural Center, that you were spearheading when you were there. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. So, my time at Cross-- at Cal State San Marcos at the Cross-Cultural Center is like the little spark of my own candle that I feel like really continues to light what my professional career is, and it's because of the work that was done at San Marcos, the willingness, the people coming together. So, one of the programs that for me, I did have a vision for and also wanted folks to come together and envision together was the Social Justice Summit. And I know that it looks different now, as it should (laughs). It should not stay stagnant. That was never the intent. And however, but that's setting the foundation for having a multiple-day overnight retreat to talk, to unpack what social justice is, to unpack what the cycle of oppression and socialization look like, how it affects us, what we can do. That's what that program is about. And so for me, that was a program that I, like I said I had a vision for, but I Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 5 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 wanted folks to come together and have this vision together and expand. It wasn't just about my vision. So, I worked with, at the time Rodger D’Andreas, who was the Director of the LGBTQ Pride Center. And I believe at the time briefly, he was also overseeing the Women's (and Gender Equity) Center, which I know is differently named now. Do you know what the name of that center is, Michael? De Maria: I, I—(interruption) Sheikh-Arvizu: It's okay if you don't! De Maria: I cannot recall it off the top of my head, unfortunately. Sheikh-Arvizu: That's okay. So, we'll just continue to call it the Women's Center because that's what I knew it as at the time. And, then other folks on campus and students coming together and saying, “Hey, this is this thought. What do you think? How can we do this? When can we do this? What would it look like? Let's develop essentially the curriculum.” And so, it was a-- people liked it. They wanted to be a part of it. They wanted to come, they wanted to be part of the committee, (laughs) they wanted to come. It was a great success. It was like one of those things where I feel like we were able to read what the social climate was and actually meet a need that was there. The need to come together, the need to know and see and understand that we weren't all alone. That there is actually a community that cares about a lot of these same things. And then this other piece of, now all of a sudden we had more language, we had more examples we had, and I say “we” cause I think that that is the important part. That was the important part, was that (clears throat). Excuse me. Folks did feel like a “we,” felt like there was a community. They could come together. So Social Justice Summit, and quickly I knew that, okay next year when we do this, we need to have student facilitators. It's not just about all of the staff and faculty coming together, teaching students. That's what, that's what happens every day in the classroom. But to have this kind of co-model of students and staff and faculty coming together to lead sessions, to lead dialogues, to conduct training together, conduct this Social Justice Summit together. And so, we started doing that as well the next year and just continuing to have a vision for what could be the future all the time. So that was a program. Something that was incredibly important to me was working together with other social centers, and to talk about what is this? What does social justice look like? Because if we're, if we're not working together then we're only really focusing on one kind of oppression. And when oppression, when one of us are affected by oppression, we all are. And there's not just one type of oppression. So I was, I feel so lucky that the professional staff and the student staff were so willing to come together. To come together to do trainings together, to come together to do programs together. Cafe La Paz was a program that came together where we opened one of the centers a week (at night). And that sounds kind of like, so what? (laughs) But it was really important because no center was open late at night. There was no space open at night for students. Now there's a student center (University Student Union) and it probably looks different. I'm imagining it looks different. I have been on campus, not at night though, since but it, the vibe is different now. But at the time, that wasn't the case. It was like five o'clock everyone's closed. And so, students were really saying, “We want a space to be, we're still here, we're still taking classes, or we're waiting for our next class. Like, but you're closed.” So, we tried to do that. Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 6 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 Started with the once-a-week thing, and with the concept of rotating the center that was open so that again, this idea of community could continue to grow. So, Cafe La Paz grew out of that, that thought process. And it was a student run program. Professional staff weren't a part of it. We had a student from each of the centers who planned that week's or, oh gosh, I don't even know what time, I believe that week’s or that month's you know, Cafe La Paz was gonna be open late night. So, they planned what was gonna happen, what's the component from all three centers, what are we focusing on? What's the food, what's the, you know everything. So they really did that. And made sure that people showed up (laughs). And then for me, other things that... There's a lot of things that stand out, but for me, that central kind of line was making connections. So, making sure that faculty knew just as much about the Cross-Cultural Center and the social justice centers as staff did. That other offices did, that orientation did. And that we could start to be seen as a space where everyone was welcome. And that was really important to me. Again, back to that sense of, I started my career in social justice because I didn't feel like I belonged. And so, I wanted to continue to create opportunities and spaces where people felt like they could belong and connect no matter where they quote unquote were, right? On their own social justice journey. So, we did a trivia program and that came directly from (when) a student and I went to a conference. We heard a speaker talk about this idea of history and people of color having this history that's there, but it's totally, it's unknown in the U.S. (United States of America). When you, when you ask folks, you know U.S. history, anything about U.S. history, it's like this laundry list and it's all focused on the White center, right? And so, we were like, what would this, what would it look like if we started to actually know other kind, other histories that are not this list that everyone quote unquote knows and learns. Can we focus outside of the center? And so we did, we developed a (laughs), a multicultural trivia program. Again, it was meant as a thing of like, how can we connect? If folks don't want to come together, go to a Social Justice Summit for three days, that's not their thing, but they wanna do some trivia. Let's go it, let's do it. Right? So just trying to meet people in the space that they want to be in, or that's intriguing to them. And we did, we had some folks that came to trivia but never came to anything else. And that is totally fine because what we gained from that is someone who's still connected, still saying, “Oh this is important to learn. I'm excited to learn this because I'm showing up. And I have pizza, both.” (laughs) I think sometimes we, like in my profession in higher ed, when I was working in higher ed, we focus on the food a lot, a lot, a lot. And I actually think that the program stood on its own without pizza because people still participated. They didn't just show up for pizza and sit there and eat their pizza. They came, they got some pizza, they participated in the program. And really got into it (laughs). And we had zero prizes. It was a clap, like, “Yay, team four, you did it! You were the winners.” That's it. That's all you got. So it was really just like the experience of being there, coming together, having this fun, fun lunch. Which was very cool. De Maria: Very cool. So, just my takeaway from hearing about those programs, with regards to the summit in particular, it sounds like you were making a big impact on an issue that was more of a qualitative nature or difficult to quantify. And that also kind of shines through with the other examples of Cafe La Paz as well as those, that trivia program. In our introductory call, you also mentioned to me the importance of the student staff kind of being the lifeblood of the organization and providing tremendous assistance to you in a leadership position as well as other leaders. So, I just wanted to know Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 7 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 about some of the ways that you empowered your student staff, and maybe what that experience was like. Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, I loved working with students. You know, my approach to empowering my staff was to listen. It was to open up the opportunity for them to think and explore and discuss and I always consider myself a yes person. I really like ideas. I love to see how an idea could turn into something real. And so, I really just encourage my staff to do the same. There are some moments with student staff that really stand out to me and I hope that folks will be okay (with) me talking about them. But having a staff member, this is prior to them being a staff member, 'cause it was an interview. Actually I have two interview moments that really stand out to me. But one was with a staff member in his interview and two of us interviewed him. We asked the questions and this student really struggled with the language. Was you know, (unclear) defining and using terms that we generally feel like is important. However, he had amazing experiences (and) connections. He was making these connections but did not have the terminology. So, it was like you know, the other person who did the interview was like, “I don't know, they don't seem like a good fit. They don't have this knowledge.” And I'm like, “Yes, yes. They have the knowledge. They have the knowledge because let's look back at all of these examples they were able to give. They are on point, they get it.” And I think that's what a lot of students are experiencing. They understand what's going on. They have the experiences and we can help put some of those words together. That's not a problem in my mind. And so, when I made the offer to this student, I think it was a little bit of a surprise 'cause I don't think that they thought they had a good interview. Because all things considered they didn't (laugh)! You know, like they stumbled through questions, all of that stuff. But, I think for me it was just being able to see something and then telling them, telling students like, “Hey, I see this in you. You talked about this. Tell me more about it. You mentioned this. Tell me more about that.” And just opening that space to get to know them, get to understand some of their experiences and what they wanted to do with that or how they wanted to make an impact. The other thing that I tried to do right away was make sure that all of the student staff, and if we had interns, anyone, anyone who was like working in some way, shape or form for the Cross-Cultural Center to open up opportunities for them to be elsewhere on campus, on committees. I had students chair committees and I had supervisors who were really nervous about that. And at times I was nervous about that too. But I felt like, “Okay, if folks are nervous about that, let's explore what the nervousness is about and also let's ensure that whatever they're nervous about isn't gonna happen. And even if it does, it's okay.” But just coming from the perspective of like, I just wanted to open up opportunities for students to be seen, to be heard, to have a voice, to lead. And essentially that's it. Because I really like ideas. We also shifted to a new space (laughs) during my tenure. And so, with in that move it allowed us the opportunity to say, “Oh, let's look around. What is this new space we're in? What could it be?” And it really was working with them on defining what it could be. And so, I think when they experienced that, what their thoughts were, their ideas mattered, and we-- and they could actually see it happen. Then to me they felt empowered to do more, to do differently, to take risks to also see themselves as leaders. And that, to me was the point. De Maria: That's very cool. (both laugh). Kind of going off of that, I mean, obviously we've been talking about your experience at the Cross-Cultural Center in depth. But in your own opinion, or in your own words, what was your favorite memory? Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 8 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 Sheikh-Arvizu: Favorite memory? Well, you know, I left-- there's two and one is (a) very tiny moment, but it has significance to me. And one feels like a big thing. I was driving home after the first Social Justice Summit. I'm a complete introvert. So being with people, I have to focus a lot of attention and energy to really be present. And I was just at a three-day retreat with, you know, fifty people (laughs). So, I'm driving home by myself. I have the windows rolled down, no music because I cannot handle more like input after the weekend. That I was like thinking and saying to myself in my quiet car, “That was amazing! And there's so much we could do with this program in the future.” Like my, I know that I'm sharing a memory that was by myself, but it really wasn't the memory of me being by myself. It was the memory of this amazing program and the way that we as staff were able to shift in the moment based on what we saw, what we ha-- what happened, and the flexibility there. And then the students in watching their transformation in just three days of you know, there was an evaluation that I had read before I left as well. And it was like, “I did not believe. I did not believe that you were gonna pull this off!” Right? Like, that's the beginning of the evaluation. Like, I'm sitting in session, I was sitting in session one and I didn't think it was gonna go anywhere. And then they continued to write, and then this happened and this happened and this happened and this was a great experience. And I was like, wow! To both be able to write like this criticism of like, I didn't think this was gonna go well, to this really changed my perspective. Was (laughs) it was a great moment kind of collectively, individually. I feel like I'm not doing a very good job actually expressing what I was feeling about this, very awesome moment. But, that's where it was. I was like literally in my car, just processing this entire, the entire weekend in the moment. But then, in the processing also feeling, “Wow, I have so much energy and I have so much, there's so much more we could give to this program. There's more we can do.” And being excited to do that, even though it was gonna be a year later (laughs). And then another moment was small, like I said. Totally different person (laughs) interviewing, getting ready to interview, because they wanted to work for the Cross-Cultural Center. And he walks in, he has a shirt, a tie, and his baseball hat, which he always wore. And I was like, okay, this is awesome. I'm interviewing him. Well, later I find out that his peers coached him on how to interview. And that for me was the moment of like, it's a great memory because the community was taking care of one another. He was ready to walk in, in like a t-shirt that he wears every single day, which really, in a lot of spaces that's okay. But his peers were saying, “No, you gotta step this up. You know, this is an interview. It's different, it's different than just walking into the Cross-Cultural Center every day.” And at the same time, he wanted to be himself cause they were encouraging him not to wear his hat, but he kept his hat on. That was part of him. Someone else gave him the tie, right? Like this was literally all (laughs), the community was caring for one another in that moment. And so, I was just so proud of folks coming together and I was proud of him for keeping his identity as part of something that he wanted to be present at the interview. Right? So, I don't know, those were my two moments of like, it, they just really stood out for very different reasons. (laughs) De Maria: No, I completely get that. And I think, another challenge that we seem to be getting back to is the quantitative versus qualitative issue. Especially with subjects as profound as this, where people might not be represented. So sometimes that qualitative evidence is also very powerful to see in action. So that's super cool. Next, I wanted to, and again, previously you described your experience at the Cross-Cultural Center as kind of being the spark that fueled the rest of your career. So, this is again kind Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 9 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 of like an abstract question, but I wanted to know just how the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional and further that journey? Sheikh-Arvizu: That's a great question. And also, I love abstract questions. (laughs) For me, I think part of me felt like I couldn't do it, be in that position, oversee and manage the Cross-Cultural Center. Because I had never worked in a Cross-Cultural Center before. And I had never been part of a student organization before (laughs). Particularly as it relates to, as it related to my identity. And so, part of me felt like, I don't know like I'm doing this work, but it kind of feels like I'm not doing this work. And at the same time, I also knew in my gut I could. It was just like fighting with my own perception of how other people might have perceived me, right? All in my head, but also all in my heart, right? Like, my experience as a person, as a human being, as a mixed-race person, as a queer person. I'm sitting in all these spaces where it's like, I don't often hear that I belong and I can do it. I could do this, I could do this thing that maybe it doesn't seem I'm really qualified for. And so, what the spark was, was I feel like I sort of came into my own power of I can do this and I don't have to be the center. I never really connected with this sense of a leader is someone at the front. They're taking the podium, they have the microphone, they can be seen, they are the first on the list for people to invite. Like I wasn't, I didn't subscribe to that kind of leadership. And so, I felt I could do my kind of leadership and I could also see other people's kind of leadership and say, “Do it! Do your kind of leadership, do it your way.” And I didn't feel I had to prove myself and say, “I am the center stage. This is my program!” No, it wasn't (laughs). I literally did not set structures like that where I was the one leading the program. I was the center. It really was let's do this together, or let me support you (laughs). It's not mine, it's yours. This is your idea. You carry it. Let's figure out how to do it. And, I think that what I learned was I could have a vision. I did have a vision for the Cross-Cultural Center and I could have that vision with other people. And I, that was really, really revolutionary to me that I could have a vision and we could have a shared vision together. And it didn't have to be so individualized. That does not seem like the rest of the culture around me, that does not seem like what it means to be in American society. And so I really held onto that. I still hold onto that, that sense of like, it's better when we do it together. It's better when we have a vision for this together. It's better when we can see our differences and learn what that means. Learn why things matter differently. Learn to take on perspectives that are different from you. So, it felt like I learned a lot during that process. It felt like I set a foundation for myself professionally, not just for that space, the Cross-Cultural Center as a space, as a community and things like that. I felt like I wanted to live what I said my values were. And that was the place that I feel like my alignment was really, really close. De Maria: Very, very cool. Going off of that line of questioning just about you as a professional, and kind of what you took from the experience, I know that you're currently working with OC (Orange County) Human Relations (Commission) on several projects. So, I just wanted to know how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center influenced the programs that you're working on currently. And maybe what some of those programs are (both laugh). Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Well, so I am a training specialist in Orange County Human Relations, (laughs). By the time this oral history project is done, we likely will have a different name as an organization (laughs). Okay. So it'll be a little bit obsolete, but that's okay. It is what it is. I, and I just started in my role. I was in Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 10 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 a different role prior. So, some things that I've done in the organization that I feel like do have a connection to Cal State San Marcos, and working at the Cross- Cultural Center; I'm training and I'm coaching folks on how to align who you say you are and how you do that work, right? So, we say diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging are all important to us and are important to us in our organization, are important to us in our school, our school district, or in our community? Okay! How do you do that? What does that look like? How do you measure that? Right? So, I feel like I asked very pointed questions right then like boom, boom, boom, right? And lots of times it's more gentle. It's, and also lots of times it's a lot of different kinds of questions. So, what I feel like is the connection for me, from (CSU) San Marcos is this idea of well, when you have a vision (you) have to be able to figure out how to put things in place, right? So, if we have the vision of, living in a community that values equity and enacts, that is an equitable place, then we need to do some hard work. And sometimes that hard work could be training, sometimes that hard work could be conversations and dialogues. Sometimes that hard work is assessing how hate and hate incidents and crimes are impacting our community. And that's all work that I feel like I'm touching or part of directly at Orange County Human Relations. And pulling community together I think is kind of the other theme. On a college campus community is, tends to be the college community or the community of students in particular. So, it's like this little bubble of, you know, built-in community. But working at Orange County Human Relations, that is not just built in. And, you know: timing, availability, interest, money, all of that. Funding, I should say, more than money. Right, all of that plays a role. And so, but still figuring out how do we come together and have a common vision. Literally just went through with a group on writing a mission statement (laughs). So, you know, creating that vision and also laying out how do we do this? This is who we say we are, how do we do it? De Maria: Very, very cool. I do have a few more questions left. And all of them are more about sort of the future of the Cross-Cultural Center and possibly social justice in general. But looking ahead, what aspirations do you have for future students who interact with the Cross-Cultural Center? Want to get involved? Sheikh-Arvizu: I feel like I would just want students to, to try it out. I mean community is really what we make it to be. And it's a we. So, if as a person, if right, if you're seeking community wherever you are, is where community can be. And it means, and it means stepping in, it means taking a risk. It means saying hi. It means going to a program. It means just seeing yourself there. That's all very abstract (laughs), but I think, you know, there's lots of places to connect and find community. You can connect and find community in the chem lab that you're working in, right? Or researching in or studying in. And, and I think for me, the Cross-Cultural Center is a different kind of community in that you can kind of go back and forth between exploring common interests and activities and also talking about how oppression, racism, sexism, identity, politics, how that plays a role in your life. And feel like oh, actually these other folks get it. I don't have to explain that much. And they're here with me for me. And, and we can eat fries together. It just spans so many different kinds of ways to connect. And I think, you know, if you're looking for multiple ways to connect, it's a great way, it's a great space! I would say any identity-based space is a great space cause it's like the opportunity to feel connected to other people, to other identities, to your own identity. And also potentially other things like music, food, we can go play sports Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 11 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 together, you know, whatever that is. Yeah, I think that everyone needs, that needs to feel a sense of validation. And for me, I think identity spaces, social justice spaces are spaces where that can happen. De Maria: I think that's beautiful. Sheikh-Arvizu: Are you okay? You this like—(interruption) De Maria: I'm complete. I'm completely fine. Sheikh-Arvizu: Okay. De Maria: Just very, very profound experiences that you're sharing with me that I really appreciate. De Maria: So, regarding my next line of questioning, I also wanted to ask you about what communities you feel might be currently underrepresented on our campus, or possibly bringing some attention to some underrepresented communities that you're currently working with. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Ooh, great question. I cannot possibly answer that question (laughs), because I'm not there and I have not looked, I've not really walked on campus. I haven't looked at any demographics at all again, like that like I can look at paper, I can look at numbers. However, I think that your last add in there to the question, like populations that I'm also working with you know. I think that... I, last year was charged with writing our hate crime report for the on behalf of the county and, something that I feel like were like central communities that were really impacted. And I personally feel like in the report, but I'm sure out of the report, beyond the report, the depth is much greater and could never be captured in a report. It was the Black community; so small, percentage wise, right? In the county. And I'm in Orange County right now so, the Black population is about two, sometimes three percent of the whole population of Orange County. But the number of hate incidents and crimes that are because of Black hate, right? Is completely disproportionate, is like exponentially disproportionate. And so really focusing on seeing that community other communities as well. I feel like numbers keep rising for anti-Asian hate and Latinx hate. I feel like numbers... numbers, incidents, experiences, uh, like a little snippet of like media also capturing this rise also in numbers and gravity of anti-LGBTQ hate, and anti-Semitic hate and like how that, that actually as a center for lots of different kinds of hate, kind of like, it looks like what it looks like to the eye. And folks maybe particularly not in the Jewish community where, it's like you could see a swastika and also the n-word both at the same time, right? Graffiti somewhere and it's like, so is that anti-Semitic? Is that anti-black? Like what is that? Whew. And unpacking that is like so much I think for folks, I don't think it's so much for the Black community or the Jewish community, or the Black Jewish community both, right? To unpack. But I think for a lot of other folks it's like, “What kind of hate is that? How do we describe it? Why? Why is this, what is this connection?” But it's really important that we do unpack it, we do explore it, we do start to understand what that means and why, and how it's progressing. It really scares me that we are in a time of, where in the country, that history is being removed, that literally people's histories are being removed, people's existence are being removed from curriculum. And that's really scary to me. That did not exactly answer your question, but I think for me there was a connection there. Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 12 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 De Maria: It did answer my question very thoroughly actually. So thank you. And I've got two more questions left to kind of wrap up the interview. But first I just wanted to ask you what direction you think the Cross-Cultural Center should grow in? Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, also one that I do not feel equipped. So I was only there for like, two and a half years? Pretty small. And there, both on campus and with the Cross-Cultural Center, the Cross-Cultural Center is in a different space even than it was when I was there. I was there for two spaces and I was there to advocate for how much physical space the next Cross-Cultural Center should occupy. So, it is now in that space and now there are more identity spaces, more cultural spaces and centers. And for me, I think with the work that I'm doing now, it still has a collaborative communal coming together need. And I would hope that that's what's happening now too, for the Cross-Cultural Center, right? But there, that the Cross-Cultural Center, the students, the staff, are working with other centers and other spaces and other student organizations and there's connections. That's what I, that's what I, I don't know, future, future (laughs). But I think it's really important to come together. I think it's also really important to make statements, so people know that they're supported. And I think that this is not necessarily just about the Cross-Cultural Center specific space or leadership there; it's like a broader everywhere that we look to leaders in positional, with positional power, specifically with titles, right? Like presidents, vice presidents, you know, whatever the titles are directors. We look to them, we expect that, we expect to hear from them when something affects the community. And I would encourage that to happen. Right? The-- I am not criticizing anything at all. I'm just saying it should happen, period. If it is awesome, because hopefully what that means is that students feel like they do belong and there's, there's connection there. And they're safe. They're safe in who they are. They're safe in their identity, they're safe to be and belong. And so that I think is important. To take a stand, to say something, right? To say, “We care to say this is not okay here.” If there is hate or if there is, and I say “if,” and really I know that it happens. It's there. It is there, it's everywhere. So yeah, just making sure people feel like they matter, individuals and communities. De Maria: Totally. And wrapping things up, again you continuously kind of reference this process of learning, which is an extremely important part of understanding social justice and also participating in it. Whether that's learning about somebody else's culture, learning how to communicate about someone else's culture to them, or learning how to ultimately take a stand and become a voice in your community. With that being said, if someone were interested in pursuing a career in social justice much like yourself, what tips would you give them? Sheikh-Arvizu: Wow. I think for me, having that sort of like home-base community or people is really important. Folks that you can say, “Hey, this is happening and I don't get it, or I feel like I messed up,” or “What am I missing?” It's really important to have those people in your life! Particularly doing social justice work, because social justice work is hard and it is literally every day. It could be your, the, you know, quote unquote nine to five, like what you're doing during the day, and then you go pick up some dinner and somehow there's still some like quote unquote “social justice work” that needs to be done there (laughs). So it doesn't necessarily, there's not like a timeline like, oh, it's five o'clock, I'm not doing this work anymore. So I think to like have, have your people, whoever those people are, people that you can count on, people that can support you, people that can listen, people that can challenge you, people Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 13 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 that can show you a different perspective. And those people should not look like you. Not all of them, maybe some of them. They should-- and when I say look like you, I don't exactly just mean look like you, I mean look like you, think like you, have the same identity markers as you do, or if not like you like one kind of person, right? And to kind of do that inventory and see like what perspectives am I missing in my own life, in my professional life. I think don't be scared (laughs). Don't be scared to be the learner as much as the teacher or trainer or coach. Sometimes I feel like my career was like poking a stick. I was like, look at this (laughs, waves imaginary stick in air), right? Like, look at this thing, what's happening? And I wanted people to see, and you know what? There was certainly a place for that. There's a place for that in my career. I felt like the organization, you know, needed that at the time or different organizations, more than one, right? Needed to see what was happening! And I, what I appreciate now in my career too, and where I am, is that other folks can do that. I can still do that and it might look and sound a little bit different than it did when I was in my early career (laughs), in my career at Cal State San Marcos, where I could say, “Look at this! This is a problem!” And, or I could hear it from a student, I could say, “Then say that, right?” Like, you go do it. “Say that somewhere. Uh, your voice is powerful.” So I think like those lessons I, for someone who wants to get to get into social justice or stay, it doesn't mean you're not in a social justice like job career focus already, is to know your way, right? Know your power, find your power, explore it, see, you know, what works where. And it might be different tactics in different places, and I think it's important to test it out and to lean into other people, to um, you know, see if they could be more effective or more effective with you together. I think too that, you know, for a lot of folks it won't feel like social justice is the center of your work. It won't! You might be doing something else. It doesn't mean that you have to discard social justice or the idea or goal of equity. You don't have to toss it away. It can still be part of your work. There's a lot of like individual things that you can do. There's a lot of cultural things that you can do that, where it can still be central to the way you think about your work, to the way you approach your work, to the way you approach outside of the workplace. I'm now a parent. The way you approach parenting to the way (laugh). Like, I know for me, like what a mind-shift of like, oh, I value this in my work and in my life, but now I have a young human and they are doing things I did not expect! But am I doing things that I didn't expect with my values in social justice and equity with my values in listening and opening up space? Whew. That's hard (laughs). And it's hard, I know I'm framing it in this parent space, but also it's hard when you're in other workplaces again, where social justice might not be the center of the work that you're doing, but it's like, I'm in this organization and like I don't feel like I'm showing up as mys-- As the self I want to or I'm not being supported. Sometimes that means it's okay to leave. It is okay to leave! It's also okay to stay and challenge if that's what you have the capacity for. And you should, if you have the capacity for that or that's what drives you, then do it. Do it that way. If you do not have the capacity or it is a toxic environment, it is okay to leave. And continue your social justice work somewhere else in another space. It can look different. It's okay (laughs). It's not like you don't have to constantly struggle all the time or feel like you don't belong, or that you don't matter at all in a space that's not-- I mean those organizations need to change and do better and do different, but it doesn't mean that you have to be the, you don't have to bear the brunt of that work that they're not really ready to do. Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 14 2024-01-25 �SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-30 I was all over the place with that (laughs), but the, the, the thought of a career in social justice is, like... my thought before my career began in social justice is very different than what my career has been. And so that's where I feel like I have a lot of different like, thoughts of what that can mean for folks. And it can be so different based on the person and your identities and the institutions that you are in. Right? And who even is your network of people, or what's needed in the organ-- in different organizations. I thought I was a great fit for other jobs. I was not. I was not selected. There were other people out there who are doing this work, so also connect. It's okay! They're, they wanna do this work too. They're qualified to do this work. Like, so that sense of like leaving competition out. I dunno. Or putting it in check. De Maria: Very, very cool. I think based on those tips as well as the other information you shared with me, you're an excellent resource for someone who's interested in going into the social justice field. So I really appreciate you taking time out today, Sara, and speak to me about your involvement in the CrossCultural Center as well as some of the work that you're doing now. And I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone trying to learn more about social justice initiatives in their community and how to get involved as well as the history of the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So just wanted to thank you again for taking time out to speak to me about this. This has been a very, very special, special interview. Sheikh-Arvizu: Of course. And I'm here, I'm still here. We have Zoom, we have phone calls, we have, there's so many ways to connect. So yes, if I'm a resource for someone that's listening or watching (laughs) in the future, but you wanna make a connection that's open, like that's available too, right? And I, and I'm pretty sure that, that, I hope, and I'm sure it will stand for other folks that are part of this project and that's why we wanna be part of this project, right? Like not just for the history component, but the future component, which is important. De Maria: Absolutely. Well, we obviously appreciate it. Again, thank you for your time and yeah, I know this isn't the end of your journey. So, (I’m) very excited to see what else you go on to do in your career and what other the communities you’ll impact. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, thank you Michael. Thank you. And for inviting me to be part of this. Transcribed by Michael De Maria and Aaron Williams 15 2024-01-25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sheikh-Arvizu, Sara. Interview transcript March 30, 2023. Description An account of the resource Sara Sheikh-Arvizu was Assistant Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University San Marcos from 2008 to 2011. In this interview, Sara discusses her roles at CSUSM and the various programs she initiated or facilitated. Sara also briefly discusses her current work with Orange County Human Relations. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-30 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Chapman University Civil rights Education, Higher LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ life Orange County Human Relations Commission (Orange County, Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Orange County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Sara Sheikh-Arvizu License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Shiekh-ArvizuSara_DeMariaMichael_2023-03-30 Activists and activism Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history LGBTQIA+ experience Women's experience