1 10 13 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Woody Guthrie OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael Joel. Interview, October 21, 2025. SC027-088 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Woody Guthrie Joan Baez Joel Rafael Band Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Okemah, Oklahoma Laura Nelson Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2892396c100240bc8d1a92ba1e46a1c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 108 Highlights of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael highlights two activities of the Joel Rafael Band including performing as the opening act for Joan Baez' tour of the southwest United States. Joan Baez ; Joel Rafael Band ; John Steinbeck ; The Grapes of Wrath ; Skirball Cultural Center ; Way Over Yonder in the Minor Key ; Salinas, California ; Los Angeles, California ; Woody Guthrie ; Jamaica Rafael ; Carl Johnson ; Hopper ; Austin, Texas ; Doc Martens 0 926 Dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael discusses the breakup of the Joel Rafael Band and reflects on the definition of success. Joel Rafael Band ; songwriters ; success 0 1125 Developing knowledge of Woody Guthrie Rafael speaks about his growing knowledge of Woody Guthrie's life and music and the various sources he used to gain that knowledge. Woody Guthrie ; Pete Seeger ; This Land Is Your Land ; Billy Bragg ; American communist movement ; Merchant Marines ; Bob Dylan ; Songs to Grow On ; Santa Monica, California ; Alan Lomax ; Will Geer ; Library of Congress recordings ; Nora Guthrie ; Dance a Little Longer 0 2270 The Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Rafael discusses the beginnings of the Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival in Okemah, OK, and how he became involved with it. Rafael played the Festival twenty-seven times. Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival ; Bound for Glory ; Okemah, Oklahoma ; Huntington's Disease ; Woody Guthrie: A Life ; Joe Klein 0 2914 The lynching of Laura Nelson Rafael tells the story of the lynching of Laura Nelson and her son in Okemah, OK. Woody Guthrie's song, Don't Kill My Baby and My Son, is based on this story. Joel searched for several years for the location of the lynching and finally found it. Laura Nelson ; lynching ; bridge ; Woody Guthrie ; Pretty Boy Floyd ; 1913 Massacre ; Hard-Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit People ; Don't Kill My Baby and My Son ; Ku Klux Klan ; Tulsa Race Riot A Report ; Boley, Oklahoma ; sharecroppers 0 4495 Woody Guthrie review show Rafael discusses his role in the Woody Guthrie review show, The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway. Jimmy LaFave ; New York City ; The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway ; narrator 0 Oral history Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:21.984 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is October 21, 2025. This interview is taking place at Joel Rafael's studio at his home in Escondido, California. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:21.984 --> 00:00:23.824 Of course. Thank you. 00:00:23.824 --> 00:00:38.274 So, at our last interview, we left off with the Joel Rafael Band. So could you tell me a little bit more about the band, what you were working on, and what happened with the dissolution of the band? 00:00:38.274 --> 00:14:19.763 Well, I just say that it's pretty difficult, I think, to keep any band or musical group together for an extended period of time unless there are things that happen that inspire people to want to keep going 'cause it's a lot of work. And so, I would say the duration of the Joel Rafael Band was just under ten years that we worked together, and we had some really interesting tours. We played a lot of festivals. Eventually--probably around turn of the century going into the first few years of the two thousands--people in the band, other members of the band besides myself started to develop some other interests and started to work towards some personal projects. And it just made it more difficult ultimately to keep the continuity of a group 'cause people were just off on their own, on their own projects. But there's a couple things that we did that I'd like to highlight before we sort of end the chapter on the Joel Rafael Band. And one of those things was in about 2002, somebody, the guy who was the director, and I can't remember his name right now, we can probably research that 'cause he's not the director anymore. But he was, at the time, the director of the Steinbeck Center in Salinas, California. And they were approaching the centennial year of John Steinbeck's birth. And so they were doing some special events and programs. And one of the things they were gonna' be doing is presenting The Grapes of Wrath, the Frank Galati adaptation for theater, of The Grapes of Wrath, as a radio play in Los Angeles at the Skirball Theater (Skirball Cultural Center), which is right next to the Getty Museum. And they have a beautiful theater there. And they asked me if I would--he had heard some of the Woody Guthrie tunes that I had recorded, even though my album, first album of Woody Guthrie Tunes wasn't out yet. He'd heard one of the songs, which was the Billy Bragg-Woody Guthrie co-write, Way Over Yonder in the Minor Key on, I think it's on Hopper is where he heard the song, which came out around 2000. And they really liked it and liked my approach to the Guthrie music. And they asked me if I would write original music for the centennial performance of The Grapes of Wrath at the Skirball by the L.A. Theater Works. And so, got together with the cast, which starred Shirley Knight, the late Shirley Knight. She was an amazing, amazing person. Just a sidebar, after she had passed away, I found out that another big influence on my art and my creativity, a guy named John Cooper--a painter that I met when I was living in Washington--he's probably like fourteen years older than me. And he's passed away now, too. But I was telling him about The Grapes of Wrath program. I was gonna' send him a copy of it. And I mentioned that Shirley Knight had starred it. And he told me that, Oh, she was my girlfriend when we were in college. So I thought that was kind of a good side note. But anyway, she was a wonderful person, wonderful to work with. And what we did is we did seven radio play performances of the play at the Skirball Theater. And they recorded the audio for all seven performances along with the music that we played throughout the performance. And then they took those seven performances and edited that into one performance that was then released with, in a program called The Theater's the Thing (the Play's the Thing), which is a syndicated radio program that the L.A. Theater Works puts on. They do a number of plays throughout the year, and then they present these radio plays that then air it on like PBS stations. That kind of thing. And so, we were really proud to do the music for that. That was basically myself, my daughter, Jamaica Rafael, and Carl Johnson, my guitar player. So it was the three of us that did those shows. And then the other really cool thing that we did with the Joel Rafael Band, right towards the end, was we had put out our first recording of all Woody Guthrie songs called Woodeye. And it's kind of an interesting story, so I'm gonna' go ahead and tell it. I had finished the album, and we'd had it pressed. It wasn't distributed. We just had like a thousand copies of this album, Woodeye, and Joan Baez was playing in San Diego at Humphreys. And so, we got a couple tickets to go to the show, my wife and I, and we went to the show, and I took a copy of Woodeye along just on the chance that I might be able to see Joan and give her a copy of my Woody Guthrie record. That didn't happen. But while we were sitting in the audience--and we were, had really good seats, we were like a third or fourth row--I was sitting next to a little girl. She was probably ten years old, maybe nine or ten years old, and her father was next to her. And somehow, I don't know how, we got onto the conversation, but I asked her at a certain point if she knew who Woody Guthrie was. And she did because she and her dad were Joan Baez fans. They had come down from Los Angeles to see Joan play. And so, when she made it clear that she knew who Woody Guthrie was, she's only nine years old, I thought, well, I'm just gonna' give her the CD. So I gave her the CD, and her and her dad listened to it on their way home. So the next day, I got a call from this guy, the father, his name's Larry Shapiro, and he called me up--got my number somehow 'cause I don't think it was on the record, but somehow, maybe my, my website was on the record, somehow he got my number. Maybe he wrote me an email. It's a long time ago now. So, he contacted me the next day and said that they'd listened to the recording on the way home, and that they loved the recording, and he wanted to know if it was distributed, and I told him no, it wasn't distributed, that we were self-distributed. So we were basically putting it in places on consignment, that kind of thing. And he said, Well, my best friend is the president of ADA record distribution, which is like ADA global (Worldwide). It's the biggest distributor, you know. And so, he said that he had a small label, and he would--it was like a boutique label called Nine Yards Records. And he said, We'd like to put your record out. So I put him in contact with my manager, and initially, before Inside Recordings put out my double set of Woody albums, Larry Shapiro and Nine Yards Records put out the initial release of Woodeye, the first album. And as part of that--I don't know how he did it--but somehow he arranged for us to be the opening act for Joan Baez, who was going out on a southwest tour of the U.S. So she was gonna' be playing like California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. And so, we ended up getting that opening act, and we had--our first show was at UCLA, and then from there we went to, I think it was like Scottsdale (Phoenix), and played the Celebrity Theater with Joan Baez. And then from there we went to New Mexico, and we played in Albuquerque and Santa Fe. And then we went from there to Austin and played Austin, Texas. So we rented a van, like a conversion van with a camper in it. And the four of us set off on tour, kind of tagging with Joan Baez. They were in their bus. And so, they had a bus driver and everything, and we were self-driven. But anyways, we followed them along on the tour. And that was probably about the biggest performances that the Joel Rafael Band did during the time that we were together as a group, was with Joan Baez. And a couple little anecdotes about Joan, 'cause I just think they're kind of fun and interesting because she's just a really interesting--kind of an enigma--but a very interesting person. First off, they always ask you when you go on tour what you'd like to have on your rider, which means when you get to the show, it's like, any kind of food or any kind of comfort you might want to have there. The promoter will ask you to submit a rider, which we did. But as an opening act, we never got anything that was on our rider. It's like we would get to the shows, to the venues, and there wouldn't be anything for us except the dressing room, you know? So right off the bat, Joan's management and Joan basically told us, Look, we have a really good rider. And when we get to the theater, there's always--not the meal, but a snack. Like, there'll usually be a tureen of soup, china dishes, cloth napkins, and silverware (laughter), and some snacks to eat before soundcheck. And they just wanted to let us know that we were completely welcome to their area when we got to the theater, knowing that anything on our rider was never gonna' be fulfilled (laughter). So they were very generous. She was very generous in that respect. I had a pair of shoes that I was wearing for that tour. They were Doc Martens, but they weren't the regular black Doc Martens, they were kind of like these special custom Doc Martens. They were like wingtips, and they were two colors. They were like red and green, sort of candy apple red and then sort of this Kelly green with a what do you call it? I'm trying to think what the name of those shoes are. Wingtip. So they had the wingtip designs on them, and Joan noticed them right away (laughter). And she said, I really like your shoes. She said, I'm really into shoes, and where did you get those? And I said, Oh, they're Doc Martens. And she said, I really like those. Well, then the next day I passed her backstage at the next theater, and she said, I love those shoes. I wear size seven- and-a-half (laughter). I don't know if I told you this story yet or not. Anyways, I made a note of it. Okay. Oh, cool. She wears size seven-and-a-half. Okay. And then the other thing about her is that every night, every show that we played--and I think we did five shows with her--when we were sound checking, she would show up at the monitor board over on the side of the stage. All of a sudden, we noticed Joan was standing there by the monitor guy listening to us play our songs. Well, I backtrack. She'd be in the theater for our sound checks, like the theater's empty, and all of a sudden, one person comes walking in the theater, and it's Joan Baez. And she sits down in the theater and listens to us play our songs during our sound check and then claps (laughter)--one person in the theater. So she made a made a point of letting us know how welcome we were and that she liked us, you know? Then when we would actually do our show, our opening act, our first and second song. We would look over, and Joan would be standing with the monitor guy at the monitor board listening to our first two songs. And then right after the first two songs, she would leave to go get ready for her show. But every night she came out and listened to our first two songs and would stand there and applaud for us from the side of the stage. So she was just really, really a treasure to work with, such an icon and an early influence of mine. So in a way, I've been fortunate, not just with Joan Baez, but I've been fortunate enough to meet some of my biggest influences and share the stage with some of my musical heroes. So when we got back from the tour, I went and I found a pair of those shoes for Joan Baez and I sent them to her-- 00:14:19.763 --> 00:14:20.458 Nice, nice. 00:14:20.458 --> 00:14:43.865 So that's my Joan Baez story. And then the other thing we did was the Steinbeck thing. Those are two really great things we did with the Joel Rafael Band. And that kind of ended our run was--right around 2003 were probably the very last shows that we played together. 00:14:43.865 --> 00:14:49.007 So, let me ask, your daughter, Jamaica, was part of the Joel Rafael Band-- 00:14:49.007 --> 00:14:51.065 She was-- 00:14:51.065 --> 00:14:56.000 --how was that to work with your daughter and for her to work with you during that time? 00:14:56.000 --> 00:18:27.000 Honestly, it was really rewarding, but really difficult. I don't think you can ever transcend the relationships--like you're the parent and she's the child. I mean, even though she's an adult--I'm not sure why that is. But we had a really good run as a band because she was a great player. Actually, everybody in my band--in that band--was, the three people playing with me were just all extremely excellent musicians, natural players that just had a sense about how to dress up a song. They're all songwriters. And that's probably part of the reason that eventually everybody went their own ways because they wanted to express their own art. They don't wanna' just be backing me up all the time. And I understand that even though it was a tough breakup, because we worked really hard at being successful, which, it's an elusive term. And success, I think, in general, can be elusive because it's hard to define. What is success? Is it financial? Is it notoriety or visibility? Or is it just the satisfaction with doing something--being able to pull off doing something that you want to do and that you love to do? And in my case, I'd say, all three of those came into play at one time or another. I think when you're younger, you have these visions of where you want to go with something that's artistic, like a band, or as a painter or an artist. Success is sort of synonymous with visibility or fame, but they're really, completely have nothing to do with each other. Success, I don't think should ever be measured by monetary success. That's just one aspect of what you could call success especially in the art world. So it was about a ten-year run, and we played a lot of great music. My daughter--we still play music together. We had a long break because of some complications in her life. But we still play music together, and we still have all the same issues we had when we were both younger due to our relationship with each other. But the music is great. And I think that it's a real reward to be able to be involved with any endeavor with your children if it could happen. Sometimes I think relationships make that more difficult. So I guess that's how I'd characterize it, is just to say that you can't really transcend relationships, but you can make really good art together. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:45.000 Thank you. So, moving to the kind of next topic is can you tell me more about your deep connection to Woody Guthrie and especially the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival that you've played at for twenty-seven years? 00:18:45.000 --> 00:24:44.000 Well, I knew quite a bit about Woody Guthrie before the Festival started. I might have covered this a little bit earlier, but one thing I've always said is that when I first started to play the guitar, a number of songs that came along or that I came across to play happened to have been written by a guy named Woody Guthrie. You know, you don't forget that name (laughter). It's just Woody Guthrie. It just sounds almost like a caricature or a cartoon character out of the past. People that are younger than me, like the people in my band, for instance, that were younger than me, when they thought about Woody Guthrie, they pictured him as some person out of distant history. But Woody Guthrie only lived to be fifty-five years old, and he died in 1967, which was the year I graduated from high school. So he was relevant and active during my lifetime, and when I was a kid. I think some of the younger folks that think of him as being a sort of a historical figure, part of that is because Pete Seeger made sure that every kid in the country learned This Land Is Your Land when they went to school (laughter). He went around to schools and did programs, and he made sure that everybody knew that song. And I can go up to almost anybody and ask them if they know who Woody Guthrie is. And usually they don't. But if I say, This Land Is Your Land, then they know that song. And then I can tell them, Well, Woody Guthrie wrote that song. But then what I always like to add to that is something that's the description that Billy Bragg uses. Billy Bragg from England, he's a musician from there. His description of Woody Guthrie is Woody's the guy who wrote This Land is Your Land. In the United States, he's the guy who wrote this Land is Your Land. In the rest of the world, he's the guy with a sign on his guitar that says, This machine kills fascists. And that's how the rest of the world knows Woody. He did two--what do you call it? Two deployments with the Merchant Marines, because when World War II started and the Allies joined--or I should say the U.S. joined the Allies to fight the fascist Nazis in Europe? At that time, there was an American Communist movement in the States that a lot of people were supportive of. It wasn't the communism of Russia or Stalin, but it was the communism in pure philosophy, or which is basically a communal sharing of resources in a country. It never turns out that way, as it turns out, in other countries. At least it hasn't. There was a movement at that time in the late thirties going into the early forties. It was an American communist movement, and a lot of the people in the folk movement and a lot of artists were involved with that movement because they saw it as maybe an antidote to the harsher sides or harsher parts of capitalism. So when the war started and America joined the Allies, a lot of these artists saw the writing on the wall that it wasn't gonna' play out to be supportive of communism anymore in America. But they didn't wanna' fight. They were basically pacifists in philosophy. And so, some of them became conscientious objectors. Others joined other areas of the service where they didn't have to fight but could be supportive of the U.S. and Allied efforts. And so, Woody joined the Merchant Marines, along with Cisco Houston and some other friends of his. And they were involved with helping transport troops and munitions to Europe. Woody Guthrie famously wrote the song, The Good Ship Reuben James (The Sinking of the Reuben James). And actually there's a story, an anecdotal story, about being on a ship transporting troops and weapons to Europe that was being hit by depth charges. And so the whole crew was down in the hull hiding out. And the crew--not the crew--but the troops were down in the hull hiding out. And the crew, of course, was still manning the ship. And at a certain point, Woody said--grabbed his guitar and his harmonica and started to head down into the hull. And his friend Cisco Houston said, Where are you going? And he said, I'm going down to play some songs for the troops. And they said they didn't wanna' go down there. That's the worst place to be when you're being hit with depth charges is in the hull of a ship. And so, the three of them (Woody, Cisco, and Jimmy Longhi) went down there and sang songs until the tragedy was over and calmed the troops down. And that was just kind of the way Woody was, you know? 00:24:44.000 --> 00:37:50.000 So I knew a few Woody Guthrie songs when I first started out. And then as I became a young adult, I became aware of the fact that Woody had been a big influence on, well, actually a lot of people, but Bob Dylan in particular. And I was pretty hugely into Bob Dylan at the time. And so, I decided to kind of go back a little further and see what was it about Woody that attracted Bob, you know? And so, I started to look for Woody Guthrie materials, and this was probably about 1973, 74, into the mid-seventies. And there wasn't much there to find. If you were lucky, you could find a copy of Bound for Glory at a used bookstore. But Woody's recordings were pretty much out of print. There were a couple things I did find. I found a collection of cowboy songs sung by Woody Guthrie, along with Cisco Houston singing harmonies. A real treasure. And then I also found Songs to Grow On, which was the songs that Woody and his wife, Marjorie, wrote for their kids. And they were unique as children's songs because--we had children's records 'cause I had young kids. But a lot of the children's music that we encountered, a lot of it was just kinda' silly, you know? And occasionally you'd find some songs that did, could really impart some educational values and some meaning within the lyrics to the kids that were young. And the thing that I loved about Woody Guthrie's children's songs were that they were about real stuff. About real things. About being angry, about playing with your toys, about washing your face and brushing your teeth, just sort of the practical life stuff was really covered in Woody Guthrie's children's songs. And so, we got copies of those on cassettes at a store we found up in Santa Monica that carried a lot of this kind of alternative stuff. And my kids grew up on those songs, listening to those songs in our car and singing along with those songs. So we sort of got educated about Woody's material together. Turns out that Woody wrote like over 3000 songs and only recorded about 80 tracks. So there's a lot of uncovered material there. A couple times I tried to put together programs about Woody Guthrie with the songs that I'd learned off the Cisco Houston album. I came across the Library of Congress tapes that were recorded by Alan Lomax. He was the son of John Lomax. And they were both musical, I guess you'd say they were ethnomusicologists. But they uncovered a lot of music from the deep South, sung by Black people, slave songs, field songs. And these were basically unknown artists that they would find, and they would go to where these artists lived and make field recordings of their songs and their music so they could provide a historical reference for some of this music that had influenced so much other music that maybe we had heard of. But we hadn't heard of the stuff that had influenced this music. And so the Lomaxes were real musical historians. I think that Woody was probably introduced to the Lomaxes by Will Geer, the actor. And I don't know if you know who Will Geer was. Okay, well, not by name, but if you've ever seen the show, the Waltons, Will Geer was the grandpa on the Waltons. Okay. And he was one of Woody Guthrie's best friends. You didn't see Will Geer in a lot of movies or a lot of shows until The Waltons because he was blacklisted during the McCarthy Era, during the McCarthy hearings. So his career was pretty much put on hold. And he was a Broadway actor. He was the star of the Broadway show, Tobacco Road. And I guess probably it was in the thirties or forties. And when Woody got to New York, that's one of the people he met was Will Geer. And Will Geer, as far as I can tell from what I've read, introduced Woody to many, if not almost all of the I important people that Woody met, like the Seegers, the Lomaxes. I'm not sure who all, but I mean, when Woody got to New York, he was just like this folk singer from Oklahoma. And he kind of got taken under wing by Pete Seeger and Will Geer and put on some programs where people realized the folk movement was pretty vital at that time in the forties. But a lot of it were performers that had learned songs of the people that had kind of created this music. And when Woody got to New York he was perceived and seen as an authentic. He had actually lived in Oklahoma and through the Dust Bowl and traveled across the country with the Dust Bowl migration and sang the songs of the people. And so, he was like, wow. When he got to New York, people were just like, Wow, this guy's really special. And so, he recorded a number of songs with Moe (Moses) Asch, who had a recording studio and was recording folk musicians in New York. And then he recorded the Library of Congress interviews with Alan Lomax. And I think that the, it might be like two or three hours of interviews, just Woody and a guitar, with Alan Lomax asking him questions about growing up in Oklahoma and about the Dust Bowl migration, the country life that he led, his traveling across the country and different people he met. And that's all preserved in the Library of Congress. Those are just wonderful recordings. If you ever get a chance to hear those. They're just called the Library of Congress Recordings by Woody Guthrie and Alan Lomax. So when I found those recordings, I learned a lot about Woody Guthrie and him telling his own story, and at one point, I decided, well, I could, I know a lot of these songs, and I'm learning some other ones from these Library of Congress recordings and then Woody talking about his life and songs. I was a pretty good, I was a quick study for copying musicians, emulating music I had heard. And I think that most artists go through that process. They emulate what they love, and eventually what they're emulating, the distillation of all of the things they're emulating becomes another more unique original thing that becomes your own. I've always told artists that have asked me--I've used the "fake it 'til you make it" method. You know, you start copying things you like because you decide you want to do this. And if you've got an knack for it, you can keep going. And then what happens? It's almost like a learning to skate, like learning to ice skate, you know, you're really wobbly and you're falling down all the time, but then all of a sudden one day you're just doing it, you know, wow, I'm skating, you know? Well, with the musical influences, it's sort of like that. That's kind of the analogy I make for that, because all of a sudden, you're doing it on your own. You don't sound like somebody else anymore. But you're still using all those resources that you've learned, but it's been distilled into your own unique voice. I think that that's at least one road to becoming an artist. And when people ask me, that's what I always tell 'em. For me, it was the "fake it 'til you make it" method. So at one point, I had these songs and I was listening to these interviews, and I thought, well, I could put together a program and take it around to my kids' elementary school or middle school and do an educational program about the Dust Bowl, about Woody Guthrie and about the folk music of that era. And so, I decided to work on some of that. And I started to put together some ideas and make a list of songs and figure out which of the interview pieces I was gonna' try to learn so that I could do this program, and I wanted endorsement for it. And I knew that Harold Leventhal was Woody Guthrie's manager, was looking after his estate. Woody had died in '67, this was probably like in the seventies, mid-seventies to late seventies. So I found a number for Harold Leventhal in New York City. He was listed, and I called him up and he answered the phone. And I expressed my idea about how I wanted to do this Woody Guthrie program. He heard me out, and then he said, You cannot do this. You cannot even play any Woody Guthrie songs publicly because we are in the process of doing a Woody Guthrie program right now called Woody Guthrie's American Song--it was a play they had put together. I guess probably in the seventies, late seventies. And he said all of those songs and all of those interviews and recordings are all spoken for and protected, and you can't use any of it, so just forget it (laughter). And I thought like, wow, man, that wasn't very nice. I got off the phone with him, and he pretty much gave me a nope (laughter). And so, I let that idea kinda' slide, and I kind of thought, well, Harold Leventhal, he's kind of an edgy guy. So many years later after I started playing on the Woody Guthrie Festival, and I'll backtrack onto that a little bit, but I was given the first Woody Guthrie lyric by Nora Guthrie, Woody's daughter. A song called, Dance a Little Longer. And we put it to music, and it was on the first collection of Woody Guthrie songs. And when Harold Leventhal heard it, it turns out he loved it. Now he didn't connect that I was the same person that had called him twenty years earlier to ask permission to do this program. And it had been turned down. And so, turned out I was on my way home from the Woody Guthrie Festival the year that I had finished that first album. And all of a sudden, my cell phone rang, and I answered it, and it was Harold Leventhal, and he'd gotten my number. He called my manager and gotten my number, and he called me just to tell me how thrilled he was with the song Dance a Little Longer, and that he was thanking me for keeping Woody's legacy alive. And I just always thought it was really ironic. He never knew that I was the person who had called him that he had so harshly turned down twenty years earlier. And here now he was calling me and thanking me for writing music to a set of Woody Guthrie lyrics. So it was kind of cathartic. And kind of full circle in a way. 00:37:50.000 --> 00:48:34.014 But anyways, the Woody Guthrie Festival started in 1998. And I had a lot of background in Woody at that point. I had learned a lot of Woody Guthrie songs on my own. I had found my used copy of Bound for Glory and read it. And right around that time, there were a couple other books that came out that were biographical, biographies of Woody. They call Bound for Glory an autobiography, but it's really not. It's autobiographical, for sure. But he took a lot of license, and as I understand it, the original text of that book was like maybe 700 pages and just completely outta' chronology. And it took a really good editor, and I should find out the names, so I can tell you the name of the woman that did the editing for Bound for Glory, but she was able to take all of Woody's writings at that time and organize them and edit them into a novel that is autobiographical that Woody wrote. It's probably, well, it was on the bestseller list for a time. And I think it probably was an influence of writers like Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady, Gary Snyder, some of those beat writers were probably influenced by Woody's writing because Kerouac's book, On the Road is not dissimilar from Bound for Glory in its cadence. And it's just the way the story's told, traveling around the country, hitchhiking, riding freight trains, and stuff. So I guess it was probably the end of 1997, maybe early 1998, I got a postcard from another artist, whose mailing list I was on--a guy named Ray Wylie Hubbard, Oklahoma, Texas guy. And he had actually written one hit song. He's a really great songwriter, but the one hit song that made it was called, Up Against the Wall, Redneck Mother (laughter). I don't know if you remember that title (laughter), but it was not what he usually wrote, but that's the song that made it. Anyways, so I had met Ray Wylie Hubbard, and I was on his mailing list, and I got this postcard listing his shows and listed in July, he was gonna' be playing the first annual Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival in Okemah, Oklahoma, Woody's hometown. And I knew the history--that town, Woody Guthrie's hometown, had mixed feelings about Woody. Historically, half the town had hated Woody because of his, what they perceived as his political views. They thought he was a communist. They thought he was a leftist. And Okemah, Oklahoma, if you look on a map, is pretty much dead center in the middle of the United States, and it's about 70 miles east of Oklahoma City--a very small town. I think it's still population about three or four thousand. And they had decided to do this festival. They had tried to do things for Woody previously in the town, but it never panned out. You know, something had always gone wrong or just never happened. But in the nineties, there was actually a woman and her husband that we met, became really good friends with once the festival got going, Sharon and Dee Jones. That were residents of Okemah, Oklahoma. And Sharon Jones had a cousin from San Francisco, and they got together in Oklahoma, probably in, I don't know, late nineties for a family reunion. And the liberal cousin from San Francisco said to Sharon, You live in Okemah, Oklahoma, and this town doesn't do anything for Woody Guthrie. That's shameful. You know, just kinda' shamed her about it (laughter). And so, she decided, we need to do something for Woody Guthrie. And so, turns out Woody's little sister lived right nearby in a town called Seminole. And so, Sharon had met her before 'cause Mary Jo Edgmon Guthrie, Woody's little sister, had spent a lot of her adult life going around to school classrooms to tell the kids about her brother, Woody Guthrie, who wrote, This Land Is Your Land. You know, sort of like Pete Seeger had done, but in her way. Telling her story about her big brother. And so, they knew of her. And so, they (phone interruption). Sorry about that. Just gotta' get rid of this call. So they knew about her, and so they contacted her and presented the idea of doing a Woody Guthrie Festival. And she said, Well, Woody's son, my nephew, is gonna' be coming through town in a couple months. I'm not sure exactly whether it was a couple months or sooner. Let's get together and tell him about your idea and see what he thinks. So they got together, and this is the story Sharon and Dee told me, so it's secondhand, but this is as I heard it. They got together with Mary Jo and Arlo Guthrie and Sharon and Dee and had a dinner and presented this idea of this Woody Guthrie festival. And Arlo said, Well, this town has never been that appreciative of my dad. So I don't know how successful something like this would be, but what I would suggest is that if we do it, we make it free. So we could pay artist expenses to get there, but I think it would be best if no artist was paid to play on the festival except for expenses to get there. And if no one had to pay to go see the festival. So we could call it the Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival. So for the first several years, that was the name of the festival, and it was free. They charged for parking, like $5 a car. So they were able to raise some money that way. And then on Wednesday night, the day before the festival started, the night before the festival started, they had a show in the Crystal Theatre in the town, which is an old theater that was there when Woody was a kid. And he used to go to the movies there. And his mom used to go to the movies there with Mary Jo when she was a baby. In fact, there's a story that one time, because she had Huntington's Disease, which is the disease that Woody died of, when she was showing signs of that, she would just go to the theater and just sit in the theater for hours and watch the movies. And one time she was in the theater, and Mary Jo, who was about three years old, wandered out of the theater into the middle of the street. And somebody picked her up saying, who's got a kid on the loose? So that's when they knew that Nora (Belle) Guthrie, Woody's mom and Mary Jo's mom, was in the throes of Huntington's disease. So they established this festival, and it was 1998. And I heard about it on this postcard that I got from Ray Wylie Hubbard. And I thought, man, it's gonna' be just in like a month or two. It wasn't too far away. And so, I know how these things are booked, and you have to book your shows a good six months in advance, sometimes even a year in advance, to get on some of these venues. And I really thought, man, I should be on this festival 'cause I've been looking for Woody Guthrie for a number of years now and kind of putting that into my performance portfolio and learning his songs and taking ideas from the songs and incorporating them into my own writing. And so, I called my manager and told (her) about this festival and said I'd really like to try to get on this maybe next year, and realizing I probably couldn't get on it in 1998. And so she said, you know what? I just got a letter from the people putting on the festival asking for a quote from one of our other artists, a more famous artist that they managed. And she said, So I can get the quote for them and then send the quote to them and send some of your material and pitch you for the festival. So she did that. And I was just so fortunate to get on that festival, even though it was only a couple months away. So I was one of the opening acts for that festival. I went there by myself the first year. I had just read Joe Klein's book, Woody Guthrie: A Life, by Joe Klein. And it's a voluminous book about Woody Guthrie's life. It doesn't pull any punches. And I just read that book. And there were some things that happened in that book that you don't hear about, just hadn't heard about it. They weren't in Bound for Glory or any other things I'd heard about Woody Guthrie. 00:48:34.014 --> 01:11:06.385 One of the things that I had read about in that book was a lynching that had happened in the town of Okemah, Oklahoma, of a woman named Laura Nelson. And also of her son, her teenage son. Her and her son were lynched from a bridge about six miles outside of town in 1911. Her husband had been accused of stealing a sheep from a white farmer. And so, the sheriff and a deputy went out to arrest the husband, Lawrence Nelson, I believe was his name. And there was a standoff. And during the standoff, their son, who I think was about 14, had grabbed a shotgun and was hiding under the stairs of the house and shot the sheriff and hit him in the leg. And he bled to death in the yard begging for water, which the family wouldn't bring him. And so then the deputies left, they formed a posse and came back out and arrested the whole family. And took them to Okemah, placed the husband in the jail, and then right across the alley from the jail in another building that also had barred windows, they held Laura Nelson and her son and her baby. She had an infant. So the husband in one cell, and then Laura Nelson, the son, and the baby in another building right across the alley waiting for the circuit judge to come through so they could have a trial for the murder of the sheriff and for the lost or the stolen sheep. That didn't happen because before the circuit judge came, a mob was formed, and they broke into the building that had Lauren Nelson and her son and the baby, and they took them about six miles out of town to a bridge and lynched them from that bridge. There's a photograph of that. 'Cause these photographs of lynchings at that time were popular in the South, and they were sold as postcards in in like drugstores. It'd be like these postcards of these various lynchings that had happened. And so, this is one of the photographs from that series of photos is the picture of Laura Nelson hanging and then her son hanging next to her. The baby was left on the shore to die. And anecdotally it's told that that a family adopted the baby. And there's different stories. Some say it was a Black family that picked the baby up. Others say it was a white family that took the baby in, and then later she was actually a privileged Black that could, that had privileges in town that other Blacks didn't have. (Phone buzzes) Lets turn this off. I'm getting a lot of spam calls for some reason today. So I had read this in this Joe Klein book, and I had been invited to come play the festival, which was like a month or two off. And I thought, well, I'm gonna' have to bring a Woody Guthrie song or some Woody Guthrie songs with me. I mean, it just seemed like that's what you had to do. If you're gonna' be on the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. And I knew a lot of Woody Guthrie songs, but a lot of them were the popular songs, like This Land Is Your Land. This Train (This Train is Bound for Glory), I Ain't Got No Home (I Ain't Got No Home in This World Anymore), 1913 Massacre--maybe not one of the most well-known ones. But I had learned a couple of songs in the early seventies from Jack Elliot, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, from some of his recordings and then seeing him play live when I was about 20, 24 years old. I was on a trip to Colorado and saw Jack Elliot live and got to meet him and John Prine. And John Prine was just starting out. He wasn't famous yet (laughter). So I'd learned these couple of songs from Jack Elliott. I'd learned Pretty Boy Floyd, and I'd learned 1913 Massacre, which--two of Woody's most powerful songs. But I knew that someone would probably be doing those songs, you know? Because there's a lot of people already on the festival. I didn't know most of 'em. I knew a handful of them from other festivals I'd been on and maybe we'd been on shows together, that kind of thing. And so, I had a book called Hard Hitting Songs for Hard-hit People, and it was a compilation book of songs that had been compiled by Alan Lomax and his father, John Lomax, folk music historians. And then the musical notes, or the musical melody line had been transposed from the recordings by Pete Seeger. So he had actually done the musical notation. And then every song in the book--and there's probably a couple hundred songs in the book--but every song in the book had an introduction, just telling about the song, where it came from and what was important about it. And those were all written by Woody Guthrie. Now he only had maybe four songs in the book that he had written, but he did the notes for all the songs. So I was looking for the songs that he'd specifically written, and I found them, there were like four or five songs, and a couple of 'em were songs that were the popular songs that people knew. But there was this one song in there called Don't Kill My Baby and My Son. And it was about the lynching of Laura Nelson just outside the town of Okemah, Oklahoma, which is Woody's hometown. The lynching happened in 1911. Woody was born in 1912. He didn't write the song until about 1940. So it happened before he was born, a year before he was born. He must have heard talk about it, like for his whole childhood. It was a very traumatic event. I mean, even for the people that did it. It wasn't like a party. It was a very horrible, noteworthy event that had happened in that town in 1911. Wasn't soon forgotten. So I know he heard about it. And there were probably other lynchings because when I actually looked for the location there, one person who I had asked about it that was from there, said, Oh, you mean the bridge where they hung the Blacks? Plural. So I think there was more than one lynching there, but the one that was documented was the lynching of Laura Nelson. So I found this song, Don't Kill My Baby and My Son, in the book. And it was notated and had the words. And so, I set about learning it, and I wasn't thinking, you're going to Oklahoma to the town where this happened. Yeah, it was a hundred years earlier almost. But it was still a very intense thing that had been. Most of the people that lived in that town didn't know about it. It had been buried by the time it was like 1998. But I just naively took this song. This is a song that nobody's gonna' do (laughter). Yeah. That's for sure. So I got there, and I told a couple people about it, that this was the song I was gonna' play, the Woody song I brought. Who was it I told--was it Ray Wylie Hubbard? I'm gonna' have to think on that for a second, because I've messed that story up a couple times and got it with the wrong person. But I told somebody, one of the artists at the show, and it will probably come to me here, but I told one of the artists at the show about the song and played it for him. And he said, You're gonna play that here? (Laughter). And he was from that area. And I said, Well, yeah, I was thinking about it. He said, Okay. He said, I'll have the car running out back just in case you have to leave really quick (laughter). So it did shock people. I sang the song, and it shocked people. I wasn't thinking anything of it. I mean, this is how blindly I did this (laughter). I guess if I'd actually taken some time to think about it, I might never have taken that song there. But in retrospect, I'm really glad I did. Because it opened up a conversation that wasn't being had there about this lynching and other lynchings. And the first reactions were from some of the townspeople, like, why would you come and sing a song like that? They thought it was my song. They didn't know it was Woody's song. And I started that year to look around for where it happened 'cause there was a description in the book I'd read that said it was six miles southeast out of town, or I can't remember exactly what the directions were, but there's like four roads, four directions going out of town. So I headed out on one of the roads about six miles, and we looked here and there and everywhere, and we never did find it. And then the next year I looked again, 'cause I was invited back and have been subsequently invited back every year. So for the next few years, I looked for that location of that hanging and got sent by two or three different people to different places. Oh, yeah, I know where that is. Yeah, you just gotta' go out here and turn right, and there's a dirt road and then you follow that dirt road until it hits the river, and then you go down the river a little ways. And it was like this kind of stuff, you know? And also in the description, it had said that it was a railroad bridge that the lynching had occurred from. And of course, we had the picture of the bridge and in that picture, there's not only the picture of the hanging, but on the bridge, the entire bridge, is people standing on the bridge watching, looking down, watching the hanging. And it said that Woody's father was there. That might've been, he might've been in the lynch mob, and he might've been in the Ku Klux Klan. Now there's no documentation that he was. It's believed he probably was. But you know, some people just say, yeah, Woody's father was in the Ku Klux Klan. I never say that because I don't know that that was true. It might've been true. But I never stated it. And my reason for that was because Mary Jo Guthrie, Woody's baby sister, became a really good friend of mine for over twenty years. And I don't think that she believed that her father was in the Ku Klux Klan. And I just didn't see any reason to keep throwing that at her or throwing that out there when it would be in her presence. It just didn't seem necessary to me since there wasn't any proof. Might have been was good enough for me. And it was good enough for her, too. So I always left it there, but there's still people that say, yeah, he was definitely in the Ku Klux Klan, and he may well have been in the mob that took her out there. So anyways, I sang the song and was a pretty intense reaction. And then the next year, I sang the song again, and it kind of became signature to me, and people became aware that it was something that had happened in their town. The second year I got a note that somebody brought backstage to me from a guy that had a booth out in the festival area, in the audience area. He had a book booth, like a used bookstore. And it said, Come out and visit my bookstore booth. I've got something for you. And so I went out there after I played, I walked out there to where his booth was, and he said, I've got something for you. And he gave me a copy of the 1920 race--it was called the 1920 Tulsa Race Riot Report (Tulsa Race Riot A Report). So, you know, it was a massacre, not a race riot, but that's what they called it in this report, which was the official report that had been made to try to understand why the massacre had happened in Tulsa. And in the context of that, they talked about the history of lynchings in that region of the country, Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, kind of that area. And further in the deep South, as well. And so, that was an eye-opener (laughter) to get that book. So now it was kind of like the whole thing was kind of outed, you know? And then over the next few years, different people would tell me where the location was, and we would go and look for it and we never could find it. And then, I'm gonna' say, what year was that? I don't know exactly what year it was. It was probably like 2015, 2016, somewhere in there. We were at the festival, and my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, who lives in Hawaii and is a anthropology archeology professor with a specialty in, I guess you call it like the South Pacific Islands. But she's just really interested in that, the whole study of that kind of stuff. And she knew we were at the Woody Guthrie Festival. She knew the stories about this lynching and the song I had sung there. I've told all these same stories to her. And she had had a foot injury and was off her feet, couldn't go anywhere. And so she was vicariously following us at the festival, and started to look at some aerial photography of the area. She knew that the lynching had happened six miles out of town. And she started looking on all these, going around on the map, looking at photographs of--I guess on Google Earth or something. And the first thing she told us was, she said, I look at the picture of that lynching, and that's not a railroad bridge. She says that that that bridge would never hold a train. That's what they call a cart bridge because in the time when that bridge was built, they didn't have cars. Everybody traveled by horse cart. But that means that when that bridge was destroyed. It was probably replaced by another bridge on a road, on an existing road. It's not like just a bridge that came from somewhere and went across the river to somewhere else. It was most likely a bridge on a road, because it was a cart bridge, which meant it was a road, and a continuation over the river of a road. And she said, I think it's this location--was six miles out town going I think west outta' town. I get my directions kind of messed up 'cause I'm not there right now. But anyways, there's the one main road that you could take outta' town. It's like the one road up from Broadway, which is the main drag in Okemah, is highway, I think it's 62. And you take that out of town six miles, and you come to a town about four miles out. You come to a town called Boley, which was the first all-Black town in the United States. It was established by a guy named Boley, who owned the railroads. And after the slaves were freed, after the emancipation of the slaves, he was a guy who was of the opinion that that black people could govern themselves. He was a segregationist. So he felt that Blacks and whites should be segregated but that Blacks could have their own towns, kind of crazy idea. But the white town could be over here and Black town could be over here. So they established this area of land that he owned as Boley, and it could be the first Black town. And then they put the word out that freed slaves could come there and establish a life there. And the history of that is pretty brutal 'cause people would come there, like the first year, it's like a couple dozen folks came there and almost all of them were wiped out by the end of the winter either by disease or by wolves. 'Cause there weren't really any dwellings. I mean, they were basically just living in makeshift shelters. Eventually they established the town. The next year more people would come, bunch more people would get wiped out in the wintertime. And progressively, they established a town there, and it's still there. So you drive past this Black town, which is the area where Laura Nelson and her husband's farm was, they were probably sharecroppers, so probably wasn't their farm. And then eventually you come to this bridge over the Canadian River, and we had been to that bridge, and we'd looked, like you stand on the bridge and look up the river. And it looked a lot like the postcard, very similar landscape to the postcard of that lynching. But we couldn't establish that that's where it was. And we couldn't see anything, any evidence of it. And we were looking at this one direction that looked like the background of the picture. If you looked the other way, it didn't really look the same. So we were looking, I think we were looking to the south. Let's see, we were coming this way. Yeah. We were looking to the south. And, our sister-in-law, my sister-in-law, contacted us and said, I think you're looking the wrong way over that bridge. You should go back out to that bridge and look to the north side and look straight down at the bottom of the bridge. She says, I think I see two big footings on each side of the river from an older bridge along, that comes off of a dirt road. It's like just a farm road now. And then the highway with the new bridge. So we went back out and we look, and sure enough, here's these two concrete pilings, what's left of them with a little bit of rebar sticking out of 'em on each side of the river. So we go down to explore, we go down to the river under the bridge, and there's just all kinds of graffiti there. You know, like this is where it happened. Look up Laura Nelson. And then a whole bunch of obscene racist things written on the bridge wall down there. So you--and beer cans everywhere. And you could just tell this has been a off zone party spot for a long time, and this is where it happened. But the old bridge is gone. And that's the reason that the landscape looked the same is because if you had backed up down past where the old bridge was and looked the same direction, there you have that picture. So we did find the location. 01:11:06.385 --> 01:14:55.000 And as you said, I played that Festival, I played it 27 times, which has been a great honor. In the 25th year, they gave me an award, a Woody Guthrie Legacy Artist award, which was a real honor. There were about five of us that had been on the Festival for over twenty years. I think I might have been maybe the only one that had been there for the whole twenty-five. You know, a couple others had been there for twenty-four years. Or one guy had been there for twenty-four years and had been in a helicopter accident before the Festival one of the years. But he showed up anyways, even though he couldn't play, it was on crutches. So they credited him with that Festival as well. So since I started playing that Festival, I've met several Woody Guthrie scholars. I've read at least two other biographies of Woody Guthrie that have come out. They're very comprehensive. One by Ed Cray and the one by Joe Klein. And then there's several other smaller books. There's a couple children's books that tell his story. There's so much material now. Like when I started to look for Woody Guthrie, there was hardly anything. And now there's just a ton of material. In fact, they just released some recordings that Woody did at home, on a home recorder, when he couldn't really travel around that much anymore because he was starting to have the symptoms of Huntington's disease. So Woody Guthrie's been close to my heart. And a couple years after the initial song that I wrote that was a co-write, I was given four more sets of lyrics that did not have music. And so, I have two Woody Guthrie albums with Woody Guthrie songs, and the first one has the one original lyric and then the second one has four more. And then there's a, some other Woody Guthrie songs on there. Some of them are familiar, but there's some other ones on there that were never recorded by Woody but did have musical notation. And I found those because a few years into the Festival, one of the guys that came to the Festival on a regular basis in the early days, his name was Jim Pollard. And he was the president of the Huntington's Disease association in Lowell, Massachusetts. But when the Festival started, he started coming down to Oklahoma every year to do a panel on Huntington's disease. And we pulled in some people from the local chapter in Oklahoma City. And then Mary Jo Guthrie was on that panel with us because she never got Huntington's disease, and we don't know, it supposedly skips. It's every other generation. It's genetic. And they've discovered a lot about Huntington's disease just in the last few years. I know that they've been able to isolate the gene that causes it. And so, they can test people when they're young to see if they have that gene that means that they may be likely to get it. And there are some even gene-altering procedures now that are experimental. They think that eventually they'll be able to cure Huntington's disease. 01:14:55.000 --> 01:23:31.154 I'm trying to think what else can I cover about Woody Guthrie In my experience with the Woody Guthrie Festival. About half of the way into it, one of the other performers, Jimmy LaFave, who died a few years ago, he and I were two of the first people on the Festival, played it every year. And at a certain point, I think it was probably around 2003 or '04, he put together a review show that was his band and himself, and then about four other songwriters. And those would be like a couple of the songwriters were regulars, song regulars on the show. And then the other two or three songwriters would be people that lived in the areas where we were doing the show. So if we were in the northeast or on the west coast or wherever it would, we would fill in those other two or three songwriter spots with people from that area that had an affinity with the Woody Guthrie Festival or with Woody Guthrie in general. And we had a narrator and we would do these readings of Woody's essays and work from Bound for Glory and other things he'd written. And then that would be followed by a song, a Woody Guthrie song by one of the artists on the show backed up by Jimmy's band, and it was called The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway, A Tribute to the Songs and Words of Woody Guthrie. And we did that I guess for about three years, all over the country, at venues all over the country. And I was the--at a certain point, the guy who was our narrator who was from Oklahoma City died. And so, I became the narrator. And we had a show in--before he passed away--we had a show in New York City on Governor's Island, which is, you take the ferry out to Governor's Island. And it was like an eleven o'clock, I think. Eleven o'clock show in the morning. And we all flew in to New York City from various places--from Chicago, Oklahoma, California--whoever was in our cast--just coming from Texas, we're kind of flying all these different places to New York City, and it was a lot of weather issues going on. And so, there were a lot of delays and some plane cancellations. My plane was supposed to get into New York City at like nine o'clock at night and then I would take a taxi to downtown to the hotel we were staying at. And then the next morning at like nine o'clock, I was gonna' meet everybody, take a taxi to Battery Park and meet everybody there at the ferry dock. And then we'd all get on the ferry to Governor's Island. And then they had a stage set up for us there as a big outside venue and whole bunch of people. And we'd do the Ribbon Highway show there. So my plane got delayed. We got to New York City, and they didn't have a place for us to land. So we circled and circled and circled, until finally they said we're getting low on gas and they still don't have a place for us to land, so we're gonna' go to Buffalo, and we're gonna' land in Buffalo until they can clear up all these backed up planes and everything in New York City, and then we'll take you back to New York City. So we get to Buffalo, which is like this little nothing airport up in Buffalo, New York. And we got out of the plane, and we were there for probably three hours waiting. Three, three or four hours. There were no concessions or anything to nothing. You couldn't get anything to eat or anything sitting on terminal waiting. Finally, they said, Okay, we're ready to take you back to New York City. So we got back on the plane, they fly us down to New York City, we land, they deboard us, and by the time we get to the baggage area, it's about three in the morning. And my call is at nine at Battery Park. And so (laughter), we get into the luggage area, and the baggage is just piled up against the walls everywhere. I mean, it's just like stacks of bags everywhere. My bags are just coming in, so I was able to get my bags pretty quickly, but these are all from backed up flights. So I go out to get a taxi, and the taxi queue is literally two-and-a-half or three blocks long. I mean, I can see the end of the line, but it's gonna' be a long time before I get a taxi. And by the time I get my bags and I'm out there, it's a quarter of four. And I'm just going like, oh, man. So I'm in line, way in the back of the line and all of a sudden, this guy comes walking by, Jamaican guy, and he's going, anybody going to Midtown? I give you a ride to Midtown. He says, I got a van. I'll give you a ride to Midtown. Nobody says anything, and it's totally against the law. He's not supposed to be there, scabbing rides. And so I go, I'm going downtown. He goes, not going downtown, going Midtown. So he keeps talking, going to Midtown, going down the line. Standing there going, well, I wish he was going downtown, you know, but he's not. So I'm still standing in line. Pretty soon he comes back, he says, you going downtown? I go, yeah. He says, I'll take you downtown. Says, okay. I grabbed my bags, man. I'm not afraid to go with him. (Laughter.) I jump in his van, and he's this Jamaican guy with a Jamaican accent. And we get talking about--this is kind of a funny anecdote--we're talking about pot. We're talking about marijuana, just like, about how he has a brother that grows marijuana in Jamaica, and we're kind of trading these counterculture marijuana stories. And I said, yeah, you know, the trouble is when you're a musician, if you want to find something to smoke, it's really hard. You know, you go to these different places, and you're a stranger in a strange land, and so you can't find anything. And he says, Just remember this, man, wherever you go, it's already there. And (laughter) that turns out to be true. So I just thought that was just really a funny thing that he said. So I've always remembered that. Anyways, he gives me a ride to my hotel in downtown. I get there. I check in. I've got--it's a nice little room, but you know, by now it's like five in the morning. And I've got four hours to get to sleep and then wake up and meet these people to get a taxi to Battery Park to meet the crew. And so we, I get in the thing and turns out this guy, Bob Childers, who was the narrator, his plane got to Chicago from Oklahoma City, but then his flight was canceled going to New York City. So he's stuck in Chicago, so he's not gonna' get there for the show. And I don't know this yet, but I get to the Battery Park and our producer, who kind of coordinates our whole show and everything, she sees me as I get there, and she comes up to me with the script in her hand, and she just hands me the script, and she says, You could do this, right? (Laughter.) And I look at it and I go, what? And she goes, Bob's not gonna' be here. You know, you need to do the narration, you can do it right? And I go, yeah, I can do it. And then, so I did the narration for that show, and then our next show--I guess Bob made one more show, but he was very fragile. And he died about a month after that. And so I became the narrator of the show for the next, I guess we did it for more than three years. We probably did it for about five or six years. And we ended that show up. And that's about, that's probably about all my information on Woody. 01:23:31.154 --> 01:23:39.094 Thank you so much, Joel, for this third installment of your oral history. And you know, we'll be back together soon at some point. 01:23:39.094 --> 01:23:41.414 Yeah. I've got more stories to tell on this. 01:23:41.414 --> 01:23:42.207 Yes, you do. 01:23:42.207 --> 01:23:43.265 Thank you so much. 01:23:43.265 --> 01:23:45.265 All Right. Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael Joel. Interview, October 21, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-088 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-10-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Folk music festivals—United States Music festivals—Oklahoma Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Baez, Joan, 1941– Communism—United States United States Merchant Marine Lynching—United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Salinas (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Austin (Tex.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Okemah (Okla.) Boley (Okla.) New York (N.Y.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael Art and artists Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d4dd7cf7eecc1bdece894a77ead172d.pdf d270957793b0b26203436ee25f17f367 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, October 21, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-10-21 Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Folk music festivals—United States Music festivals—Oklahoma Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Baez, Joan, 1941– Communism—United States United States Merchant Marine Lynching—United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Salinas (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Austin (Tex.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Okemah (Okla.) Boley (Okla.) New York (N.Y.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-10-21_transcript Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael, Joel. Interview September 23rd, 2025. SC027-087 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/032bee5939ae038703eabe2141fb43d4.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 56 Employment at the San Diego Wild Animal Park In the mid-eighties, Rafael began working at the San Diego Wild Animal Park (now Safari Park). His first position was to support the summer concert series as a crew member through a variety of activities. Shortly after, he became a Public Relations Specialist for the Park, where he eventually coordinated media-oriented location shoots. Wild Animal Park ; Safari Park ; Zoological Society ; public relations ; condors 0 1005 Working for the Steve Powers Craft Festival In 1987, Rafael got a side job as a stage manager at the Steve Powers Craft Festival, which traveled around the southwest United States. He coordinated both a music stage and a variety stage. During this time, he met Jim and Teresa Hinton and began to bring them in on his own recordings, forming a group called Reluctant Angel. Teamsters ; Steve Powers Craft Festival ; stage manager ; Jim Hinton ; Teresa Hinton ; Reluctant Angel ; Healing Heart 0 1410 Music industry's significant interest in Rafael's music Rafael sends his demos he recorded as Reluctant Angel to Paul Rothchild, a producer that he had met earlier. Paul communicated that Rafael would potentially be offered a publishing contract. Two additional band members were added: a drummer, David O'Brien, and a guitarist, Davey Allen. After an audition, the band waited for several months. After a second audition, Rafael was told that the record company had decided not to move forward with the contract. Reluctant Angel dissolves. Paul Rothchild ; David O'Brien ; Davey Allen ; Elektra Records ; Jack Holzman ; Donald Miller ; audition ; Elektra Records 0 2954 Formation of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael begins again as a duo with Carl Johnson, and guitar player he had known of in high school. The duo played many small coffee houses all over southern California. They added a drummer, Jeff Berkley, and Rafael's daughter, Jamaica Rafael, as violinist. The Joel Rafael Band release its first album in 1994. Carl Johnson ; Jeff Berkley ; Jamaica Rafael ; Joel Rafael Band 0 3229 Evolution of radio and its effect on the Band As radio was going through a transition, new genres were established including Adult Album Alternative, which allowed a lot of independent music. Because of this and a relationship with KKOS in Carlsbad, the Joel Rafael Band began to show up on playlists. Rafael formed a production team with his daughter, Corrina, The band began won a contest that got them an opening spot at the Troubadours of Folk Festival at University of California Los Angeles. Adult Album Alternative ; KKOS ; Troubadours of Folk Festival 0 3994 The Kerrville Folk Festival A new folk festival, The Kerrville Folk Festival, opens in Kerrville, TX. In 1994, Rafael submits songs the Band is recording for an album, and they are chosen to play at the Festival. Although the Band did not win the contest the first year, Rafael and his daughter returned in 1995 and won. Rafael feels recognized for his hard work. Because it is nationally known, Kerrville becomes a major stepping stone for the Band. Kerrville Folk Festival ; Texas ; Jamaica Rafael ; Joel Rafael Band ; recognition 0 Oral history NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Hello, it's Jen Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is September 23rd, 2025, and it is 11:20 a.m. This interview is taking place at the California State University San Marcos Library, Kellogg Library. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.000 Of course. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:52.000 This is our second session of the interview, and we wanted to start off with--we were talking about some of the jobs that you held during the time that you were developing your music, and you had just gotten a job at the San Diego, what was called then the Wild Animal Park. 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.000 Right. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:56.914 So let's start there. Tell us about that job. 00:00:56.914 --> 00:16:26.000 Okay. Well, I went in to the Wild Animal Park and applied for a job because I was pretty desperate for regular income. And they had some openings. It was the summer, I believe it was summer of 1985--one year either way. I could probably find that out. But in any case, I was able to get a job there, a part-time job, for the summer. They had a summer concert series in an area of the park they called the Mahala Amphitheater. It was sort of a big grassy area, and they would do--they had been doing for a few years--a summer series of concerts there. Mostly, I guess what you'd call, oldies, you know, sort of established groups from like the sixties and seventies mainly. Jan and Dean, America--I'm trying to think of some of the groups that were there. The combination of folks that were in, say, like the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band at that point. Those were the kind of bands that they were booking. And I got a job as a concert assistant, which basically, I was on a crew with about four other people. And we would come in on like Thursday and start preparing the concert area, the stage, cleaning it up. And then on Friday we would literally set up all the microphones and get the equipment out and get it all ready for the show. And then the sound people would come in and get everything going. And then they would send us up to various jobs around there, cleaning the stage, the backstage area, the dressing room trailers, going up and getting the food for catering for the artists, that kind of thing. And then during the show, crowd control and running a spotlight, those were kind of the job responsibilities, and that was a part-time job. And I worked at that that summer. And it was a lot of fun, you know, to be there. But they would only let you in a part-time job, I think they wanted to try to keep you to like 20 hours a week. Sometimes you'd go a little over that. But they wanted to keep you at 20 so they wouldn't have to give you insurance and that kind of thing. And the thing that was good about having a job with the Zoological Society was that once you had a job there--whether it was part-time, if it was part-time or full-time--when new jobs were available, they would put them up on a board that was only accessible by the employees. Those are the only people that would see the board. I guess there were some administrative jobs that they would send out to publications, to certain publications, to try to draw in people appropriate for those jobs and educationally and so forth. And so a job came up on the board for the title of Public Relations Assistant. And there were two people working in what was then the Public Relations and Marketing Department at the Wild Animal Park. There was the marketing manager, a lady named Martha Baker, and the public relations coordinator. And that was a guy named Tom Hanscom. Both of them were younger than me, but basically they were running that department. And Public Relations and Marketing was one department. I was just so fortunate to get that job because they had, I think it was like 300 applicants and I was--for what the job actually was, which was mostly clerical, somebody to file, fill out purchase requisitions and do filing and answer the phones. It was kind of a secretarial, clerical position. And that's not my forte (laughter). Clerical work is not my forte. But I could--I might have even said this last time--I could type just fast enough, like, whatever it was, 30 words a minute or something (laughter), I could type just fast enough to be considered. And because I had actually--I'm gonna' back up just a little bit. When the summer concert series ended, I desperately wanted to keep working at the park. But you have to wait for a job to come up that you can apply for. I did actually get a second part-time job going into the fall after the summer. And there wasn't really a name for that job because the situation was that the park had been established in 1972, and this was like now 13-14 years later. And all of these beautiful signs on all of the shops and all the exhibits that had originally been put up in the park were--I guess you'd say they were sandblasted signs, sandblasted and painted signs, very, very crafty-looking wooden signs. And they were all wearing out. The paint was chipping off. And every department--merchandising, food services, signage for exhibits--they all needed, all the signs were just in ill-repair. So they hired me basically as a sign painter. I wasn't in any department, which is very unusual in a huge bureaucracy like that. But I kind of worked under the construction and maintenance guy and kind of under the buildings and grounds guy. So I had two different supervisors from two different departments that were kind of my bosses. And then I was on call for any department that had signs that needed to be refurbished. And so I'd get a call from merchandising, or I'd get a call from gardening, or whatever department that had signs that they needed fixed. And they gave me a golf cart that was mine to use when I was there. So I'd golf cart over to where the sign was, check it out, get a ladder, take it down, figure out what I needed to do to make it new. And then I could go up and requisition paint and brushes and whatever I needed from the supply area. And then I would--there was a little shed right back by the monorail tracks. It was just like a little wood, plywood, wood shed. And that became my office. And I would repair my signs inside that shed and just outside of the shed. It was just my work area. And that might have been my favorite job at the Wild Animal Park. But another job came up, and it was full-time, which meant I could get insurance and a regular 40 (hours per) week salary. And I applied for that public relations job. And because I had gone around to all these different departments and worked with so many people from so many departments at the park, everybody knew me. And I'd made friends with a lot of people. I'm kind of a people person. And so I made the cut. I got hired, even though there were 300 applicants, because I knew both the marketing manager and the public relations coordinator. I'd worked with them on a couple of events that they'd done for the park. And so I got that job, and it was mostly clerical. And I'm gonna' say it's probably about no more than three months-four months into that job, the Zoological Society decided that they were going to separate marketing and public relations and make them two different departments. And by doing that, what they were gonna' do is that Martha, who was the marketing manager, she was now gonna' be at the zoo as the marketing manager for the zoo. There'd be no marketing department at the park, only public relations. And then Tom, who was the public relations coordinator, would now be the public relations manager, and he would handle all news and that kind of thing. So that left me. I was either gonna' be going to the zoo with Martha as a marketing assistant, or I was gonna' be staying at the park with Tom as a public relations assistant. So I pretty much, behind the scenes, went to Tom and begged him to keep me at the park. You know, it was closer to my house. I had a really good working relationship with Tom. We got along really well. And I just didn't want to go down to the zoo. And out of the two, public relations and marketing, I preferred public relations because in a lot of corporations they are combined, but they're really different from each other. Marketing is really different from public relations. And the way that Tom explained that to me was that marketing was like advertising. You know, you pay for visibility. Public relations was about getting visibility for free (laughter). For a story, or something that was going on that was of enough importance to be reported in the newspaper. And so, turned out I got my wish, and I stayed at the park with Tom, and we kind of formed a, we formed a real team, the two of us. Because now it was just the two of us in that department. And we became really good friends. I think maybe a year or two, maybe two years after I was there, I had started coordinating locations. So basically there was a lot of kind of media-oriented things that were going on with public relations. Like there would be news stories. We'd have a new animal born, endangered species, you know, that was being born in captivity. And all of those stories, including the condors, which had at that point, had all been brought in from the wild because they weren't gonna' survive. There were only maybe, I don't know, three or four mating pairs still in the wild. And so Fish and Wildlife and a couple of different zoological societies kind of got together and formed a committee, I guess you'd say, to protect the condors. And the first decision they made was that they needed to be brought in from the wild--because we were gonna' lose 'em all--to see if we could breed condors in captivity. And so that was already in progress when I came into the department. And Tom was very much involved in the news dissemination of that story and was working very closely with the bird curator, who was one of the head condor people nationally. He was the curator of birds at the park, but he was also one of the main people working on the Condor Project (California Condor Recovery Program). And so Tom and I and Bill Toone, the bird curator, and then other bird people were kind of involved in anything that happened with condors. And at that point we had the first captive, hatched condor--happened while I was there. So we disseminated the news on that, Molloko (first condor born in captivity). I don't know if you remember when that all happened, but that was a pretty big deal. And then they--the breeding program was successful enough that a certain point later we started to reintroduce birds into the wild. And now there's a lot of condors in the wild. It's been very successful. So I was involved with all of that, but as an assistant. But I was also coordinating media and video and projects of that kind for things that were not news, but, you know, like we would have--Joan Embery would come up and do a story on a new animal. We had this guy, Dave Scott, who was the weatherman at KUSI, who had a, I guess you'd call it a sidebar program that he presented from time to time on his weather show about different things going on in San Diego. And one of the things he would do would come up to the park, and if there's a new animal that had been born or some story at the park, he would come up and do a little feature on it. And so, whenever that would happen, I would be the person that would accompany those people around to the different areas at the park. And then that kind of morphed into location scouting 'cause there were commercials that wanted to come in and shoot, like MasterCard and MotorTrend. And we did the MotorTrend car of the year layout for their magazine one year there in the East Africa exhibit with rhinos and giraffes and stuff around. And that involved hiring keepers, animal keepers, overtime to work with the film crews and stuff. And I was kind of the coordinator for all that. And so at a certain point, they let me write my own title. And so I created my own job there, which was a Public Relations Production Coordinator. And so anything that was production oriented fell into my area. Also, the other thing I did there was VIP (very important person) tours. So if they had somebody that would come to the zoo, for instance, like a celebrity, a VIP, a lot of times it was celebrities, sometimes politicians, but just somebody they might want to give a special tour to, then they would call me up, and I would meet that person and take the Land Rover and drive them out into the exhibits so they could see the animals up close, answer any questions they had. Photographers that would come in that wanted to photograph a specific animal or had a project they were working on that they needed to access certain areas, I would get them into those areas and make sure that it was safe and that we had keepers out there that knew what to do to make things safe. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:23:30.000 And so that was my job for probably six or seven, maybe eight years at the park. I'd say like eight years of the twelve that I worked there, maybe even ten years of the twelve I worked there. And towards the end of that run, which is right around let's say 1992 or '93--I left the park in '96-- but about 1990-- I'm gonna' say about 1990. Maybe even '89. Let's say '89. I picked up another side job, and I had the full-time job at the park. But I was building up now vacation time, so at a certain point, I'd have like two or three weeks of vacation time built up and that would--it was kind of up to me to schedule that, to use those hours. And I went, when I had that job in public relations, I went from being a regular employee, a Teamster, to being an administrative person. So, I had to retire from the Teamsters Union, which I always took a lot of pride in being a union member with the Teamsters (laughter). But I had to leave the Teamsters, and then I became like an administrative person. So let's see, where was I? About 1989, I picked up this other job with a guy named Steve Powers, and he had a company called the Steve Powers Craft Festival. (This was in 1987.) And he would produce and coordinate craft festivals in like four or five cities during the holidays, like just before Christmas. And then sometimes just before Easter. I think we did a Thanksgiving, a Christmas, an Easter, and a summer--just a summer run of shows. And they would be--we would go to convention centers and set up these big craft festival shows, like in Reno and in Las Vegas, in Phoenix, in Tucson, San Jose--just in all these places where they had convention centers mostly in the southwest. We didn't really go east, but we did Arizona, we did Nevada, we did California. I guess that's pretty much it. And my job was the production coordinator for the Craft Festival. And I managed two stages. I would travel with Steve to the convention centers and help set up the whole convention center with the--it would be him and myself. We would drive out to the convention center, pulling a trailer with all the stuff in it. And then about four or five other people would meet us there that had booths at the craft festival. And he would trade their booth fees for them to come in a day early and help with setup. So we had--that was our setup crew. And we'd kind of all meet at that first festival and set it up, and then when that festival closed down, we'd all travel together to the next festival and reset it up and so on. And I coordinated two stages--a variety stage and a music stage. And one of the acts on the music stage was a couple that did Irish music, Jim and Teresa Hinton. They were a married couple. And we got to be friends 'cause I was always doing their sound. And I had my studio. I built my studio at that point, and they wanted to record. So they lived in San Diego. So they started coming up to my house to record, recorded a couple albums at my studio. And Jim inspired me at a certain point in there, he said, You know, you're recording all these people all the time, and you need to record your own album. And I was recording my own stuff, but I'd never get it done 'cause I had a studio--it's easy to just not get anything done, you know? Whereas if you are booking a studio from someone else, and you're paying an hourly rate, you have to get something done. And that had always been what I'd done in the past. But now I had my own studio, and I just literally wasn't ever finishing anything. I'd go in, and I'd start a song and get it to a certain point, and then I'd be recording somebody else, and I'd go in and record a different song. And, you know, forget about the first one I recorded, and I just never was getting anything done. So Jim said to me, You need to record your own album. And kind of implored me to do that. And so I recorded the Healing Heart album, which is the cassette tape that's in the collection I gave you today. And that was probably in '89. So they recorded a couple albums there. And then, turns out Steve had been hiring them to play on these craft festivals. And I was actually playing one set also. I was doing all the coordination and managing the two stages. But there was Jim and Teresa, and then there was kind of a bluegrass band. And then there was kind of a modern kind of Eagles rock kind of a band. And then there was kind of a fifties rock band. So there were like four acts that would rotate through the day on the music stage. And then they had a magician and a comedian and a juggler on a variety stage, and we all got to be great friends, just traveling to these different shows. But what I did is I started to bring Jim and Teresa in on some of the stuff I was recording--some of my songs--to do harmonies 'cause they were really good singers. And that kind of evolved into us working together more, and we kind of formed a group that started performing at the craft festivals called Reluctant Angel, which was the name of one of my songs and became the name of my publishing company, Reluctant Angel Music, which that's still the name of my publishing company. And we started to record some demos. You know, we call 'em demos, like just demonstrations of the songs. And we recorded about, I think probably four songs, five songs, a couple of Jim's songs, a couple of my songs. And they really were sounding really good. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:30:04.000 And so I decided that I would call up this guy, a producer that I had met, and I think I mentioned it in my earlier interview. He--Paul Rothchild. He produced Bonnie Rait. And earlier in his career, he produced Judy Collins' folk music, Tom Paxton, the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, which was the first electric band on Elektra Records. So he was already like a super producer. And I had met him in 1976 because he held a song for Bonnie Rait, and Bonnie Rait and he held a song that she was gonna' possibly record on her album. This is before she was really famous. She didn't record the song, but we remained friends all those years. So I decided I would send these demos to Paul Rothchild with a note that said, Hey, do you know a music attorney or someone in the music business that might be interested in what we're doing? I didn't really ask him personally because kind of my experience with him was we'd become friends and we'd stayed in touch more or less, but they hadn't done my song when they held it. So I didn't really have a particular in with him other than knowing that he was connected to the music business and maybe he might listen to this stuff and know somebody that might be interested. And I didn't hear anything for a while, and then it got to be the holidays. This was before cell phones. And so we were on vacation. I'm gonna' say it was a few weeks before Christmas and sort of the typical thing is in the music world, probably in business everywhere, is that nothing much happens during the holidays. Once it gets to be November, don't expect much to happen until after the first of the year. And I think it's especially true in music if you're trying to get some attention, it's better to wait 'til the springtime. But I sent him these tapes, and it was holiday times, so I didn't really expect anything right off the bat. But it was about two weeks later, we were up in Santa Cruz on vacation, and I just decided to call my phone and check my answer machine--'cause we didn't have cell phones then, but we had answer machine--and just see if we had any messages. Not from him particularly, but just anything. And there was one message that was from Paul Rothchild. And he said, Hey, this is Paul Rothchild. I'm calling you about your music. He says, Why don't you give me a call at home? Here's my number. Let's talk about your music. And it just blew my mind (laughter). I was like, Whoa. And so I called it back, and he said he was really interested in the stuff we'd sent and that he'd played it for a guy that he'd worked for for years--that had hired him many years ago in the music business, but he couldn't tell me who he was right now. But that he was a very connected in the music business and at this point, owned a small record company and a publishing company. And that he felt that if I could send him some more demos of the quality that I'd sent him that this person would be inclined to offer me a recording and a publishing contract. And so, of course, we were just over the moon. And so we just started recording more demos--me and Jim and Teresa. And we brought in a friend, an old friend of mine named David O'Brien, who was a drummer, to play drums on some of the stuff. And then one of the guys who had the fifties retro band with the craft festival was a guy who'd been in the music business for years but had had marginal success but was well known as a guitar player. His name was Davey Allen. And he had a group called Davey Allen and the Arrows. And they had recorded basically surf music, instrumental surf music. But he had also recorded music for a couple of the motorcycle movies of the--I guess they were in the sixties, some of these motorcycle movies that came out there, kinda' like B movies. And they would have this electric music. A lot of that was recorded by Davey Allen and the Arrows. And so he had a group called Joe Cool and the Rumblers, and they were the fifties group, right? That played at the craft festival. So we got to know Davey. And so we brought him in to do some lead guitar, electric lead guitar on some of the stuff. So we'd kind of formed this foursome--it was basically the three of us, well, it was a five-piece, actually. It was the three of us, plus the drummer and the guitar player. And we kept sending these demos to Paul and then at a certain point, he said, You know, really liking this stuff you're sending. And I can tell you now, the guy that I've been playing this stuff for is Jack Holzman. And Jack Holzman is the guy who started Elektra Records in the late fifties and hired me--Paul Rothchild--to record these, the great folk groups of the late fifties--Tom Paxton, Judy Collins. I forget all the different names--John Sebastian, The Lovin' Spoonful. These were great groups. And then, later, Paul Butterfield Blues Band, which was the first electric band. And then after that, Love, and just so many groups. I mean, Elektra, it was like one of the three big labels. And Holzman was like a music mogul. I mean, when he told me that, all I could think of was The Doors movie where Paul Rothchild and Jack Holzman are portrayed in the movie and the scene where they walk out and offer Jim Morrison a recording deal. That was kind of running through our heads. We watched the movie, and we're going like, I can't believe these are the guys that are listening to our stuff, you know? 00:30:04.000 --> 00:46:36.000 So eventually they set up an audition at a club in Santa Monica called At My Place. And it was right on Santa Monica Boulevard. And Paul Rothchild knew the owner of the club. So what he did is he was able to secure the club. It was on a Wednesday night or something, from eight o'clock until, or from seven o'clock until nine o'clock or something like that. And so we came in early and set up and did a sound check. He came in and mixed our sound for us. And then it was an invite only. So we invited some friends, and then Jack Holzman and his wife and his brother and some other people from the, where there were business associates of his came in and filled the place up. And we did this concert audition. And when we finished, you walked off the stage into a little, not really a dressing room area, but a little off-stage area at this club. And Jack Holzman, just like in that Doors movie, Jack Holzman and Paul Rothchild came back and told us how much they enjoyed it. And Jack Holzman was saying, You guys have a really great group, and I think Paul Rothchild is the perfect guy to produce you guys, and we really like what you're doing. And they offered us a development deal for a recording contract. They just, it just languished, (Phone rings) Sorry about that. And nothing happened. We kept sending him demos and just nothing happened. At a certain point, Paul Rothchild asked me if I knew a manager or anybody in the music business that, if we did get an actual deal on the table--which he was trying to make happen for us 'cause he really liked what we were doing--that we would need to have some kind of representation. And I didn't really have any representation at that point, but what happened was I told a few people at the Wild Animal Park that this was all going on. And one of those people was a girl who had worked at the park for years. She was a mammal keeper. And she was specifically a gorilla keeper. She'd worked with the gorilla troop there for years and was a real expert on primates. And we'd become friends over the years that I'd worked there. And we were having lunch together one day at our lunch break, and I was telling her all about this record deal--lingering, hanging record deal. And she said, Do you have a manager or anybody in the music business to guide you through this? And I said, No, not really. I said, I mean, I know about copyrights and the things I've learned on my own over the years through being in music all these years. But I don't have any real professional management or anything. And she said, Well, I'm going to introduce you to my brother. He's Jackson Browne's road manager. So she introduced me to him, and we had a phone conversation. His name is Mike Sexton and goes by Coach 'cause he was originally a coach when he got hired into the music business to be a road manager. And he called me up, and we had a conversation and he said, well, he could hook me up with one of three different managers, personal managers that he worked with. He could introduce me to one of three of them that could probably guide me through this process. One of them was Elliot Roberts, who was Neil Young's manager. And also kind of Steve Stills' manager off and on. And then there was another guy named Bill Siddens, who had been the Doors' road manager but was now a personal manager. I think he managed David Crosby, I think at that point. And then Graham Nash, I forget what his manager's name was, but maybe--I can't remember. There were three managers, Siddens and Elliot Roberts. And then the third manager was Jackson Browne's manager, Donald Miller. And I said I would like to meet Donald Miller, Jackson Browne's manager, because Jackson Browne was like on the top of my list. He was the best writer that I knew of. Really, I, as far as I was concerned, he was just one of the best songwriters that I'd ever heard. And his level of support for environmental issues, there was just a lot of integrity attached to him and his music. And so, I liked the other guys' music quite a lot, everybody that he mentioned, but something about Jackson Browne, that was kind of the area I just felt that was gonna' work best for me. So he introduced me to Donald Miller, who goes by Buddha. That's his nickname. So he told me, Well my name's Don Miller, but my friends call me Buddha. So he had me come up to his house up in Studio City and meet him personally. He was also managing Jennifer Warnes at the time. So he said like, Hey, if you've got any songs that might be good for Jennifer Warnes, bring those along. So I took some of those songs up. We had an initial meeting. I left the tapes with him, and he just said he would be there when they made a decision. When they finally made us an offer, he would be glad to guide us through it and hook us up with a good attorney that he knew that could walk us through, so we would get a fair deal. And so then it was just a waiting game. And I would check in with him, and he used some vernacular that I won't repeat, but basically the gist of it was they either need to get their act together or forget about it. I'd say, well, he'd say, well what's going on? If they said anything? Is anything new going on? I go, no. They're just telling us to keep sending more demos. And he says, Well, I would tell them to (laughter)--and I won't say what he said, but it was basically do this or get out of town (laughter). And so I, to tell you the truth, I was just intimidated to the point where I wasn't gonna' say that to them. I wasn't gonna' say, Well, hey, you need to tell us what's going on now. I wasn't gonna' make a demand on Jack Holzman and Paul Rothchild, who I also highly respected. I hadn't really met Jack yet, but I knew who he was. And so finally they set up an audition, and it was at the At My Place club. We went there, we did that, they offered us the deal. I guess I covered that. And so we are in this waiting period now, and it went on for months. Like it went on for nine months. And so, finally Paul kind of indicated to me that they were kind of getting cold feet, that attitudes were kind of changing with the people he'd been talking to. Now I didn't know who all of those were. I knew he was talking to Jack. He basically said you have two fans at the company, Jack Holzman and myself. He says, But there's some other people that are at the company that have influence that aren't so sure they wanna' do it. And I said, Well, you know, where does that leave us? And kind of in conversation, we came around to that we could do another audition and try to increase the excitement of the other people that weren't really behind us right then. So we set up another audition, a second audition, and I guess if I'd have been able to read the writing on the wall better, I would've been able to tell that the odds weren't nearly as good as they had been the first time. The excitement level wasn't the same. The economy was not great, hadn't--nine months had gone by, the economy kind of sucked. And found out later it was Keith Holzman, Jack's brother, who was basically the lifelong accountant for Jack's record companies, that was feeling like we weren't gonna' be a good investment. But they decided that they'd let me, in Paul's words, pursue my star, and they would set up another audition. But it was completely on us. We weren't gonna' do it at the At My Place club, which actually, it wasn't the At My Place club anymore, it had changed hands and was some other club. So if we were gonna' do it, we would have to figure out where we were gonna' do it and make it convenient enough for those people that were important to be there. So we decided we would rent a rehearsal studio in Burbank 'cause we had to go to where they were. They weren't gonna' come down to San Diego. And so we tried to be creative, like, how are we gonna' do this, to really capture the attention of these guys and get them excited about this again? And so we decided we would like I have--all my furniture at my house is my parents' and my grandparents' furniture. We've never bought any furniture. One thing my mom left us was all the furniture. And it's like really some nice old chairs. I mean, really comfortable furniture. They don't make furniture like that anymore. And so I've got four or five nice upholstered chairs, and I've got a rocking chair. I've got some little side tables and some nice lamps. And so we say we'll just take everything outta' my living room. We'll just literally strip my house of all the furniture and lamps and accessories that make my living room cozy. And we'll rent a truck, and we'll truck that all up to Burbank to this large rehearsal studio that basically was just a big room with a sound system in it. And we would rent a bunch of chairs, and we would set up some folding seats. But then we'd also put all of the comfortable chairs and stuff in and with the side tables and the lamps and make it feel like a big living room. We would create this atmosphere. And a couple people, one guy from the park that worked at the park that I'd become friends with--he was a security guard there. He volunteered to go with us. And then another really close friend of mine that had a house up in Temecula came down, and he drove the truck up for me. And then they helped us set it all up. We got up there like at ten in the morning, we rented this place for the whole day, set up the the place. We had a sound guy come in from Sound Image that I knew that volunteered to help out. He came in to mix us. And we set up another audition. We got mason jars, small mason jars, like a couple cases of mason jars. And then we got a water cooler that you could draw water out of. And we had all these mason jars set up so that people could get fresh water. 'Cause we didn't really serve any refreshments, we didn't have enough money to do all that. And then we invited everybody we could that would actually make the trip up to Burbank to come see us, telling them that this is really important, we gotta' really make an impression, and it's better if there's an audience. And so we put on this whole big thing. When we left to go up there, it started raining. Just after we got stuff loaded in the truck, it started raining. So we unloaded everything in the rain, got it all in there. It rained the whole night. Everybody showed up, and Jack and his brother, Keith, came. They came in, we played a show. Seemed like it went good. They were very accepting and very cordial and friendly, and it all felt really good. And then they all left, and it was pouring rain, just a downpour. So we had to load all that stuff back up in the truck. This is my side story to the whole experience (laughter). Loaded stuff all up in the truck. Drove back down here. Got back down to my house at about probably about three in the morning. But we had to return the truck. So my friend Stuart drove the truck, and I drove my car down to Escondido, to the U-Haul place where we had rented the truck, or Ryder or whatever it was. I can't remember. And there was a place to park the truck and then a key drop, so we dropped the truck and dropped the key. I turned my car around to pull out. And the driveway's kinda' one of those driveways that kinda' goes down in the middle. There's sort of a drainage right in the middle. And so it's a little higher on the sides, you know? And so as I turned around, I realized I had a flat tire. And so it's now, it's four or four-thirty in the morning, been up all night, still in my clothes that I wore to perform in. And now I've gotta' lay down in the puddle in the driveway and change my tire (laughter). So the omens weren't good (laughter). Still raining, pouring rain. We drive back up to my house, and Stuart gets his car and goes home. And I guess I went to bed about, I dunno', five-thirty in the morning. Slept 'til about noon or one. Got up waiting to hear something. And about two or three o'clock, I got a call from Paul Rothchild, and he said, Yeah, we basically decided not to do it. And we were devastated. Because it'd been almost a year of this. And so a couple of weeks before the audition, that last audition, I was also told by Paul Rothchild that the company was only interested in my songs, that they thought Jim's songs were good, but they were really only interested in my songs. And so at the new audition, they wouldn't hear any of the songs we'd sent that were Jim's. They just wanted me to play my songs. So I had to deliver that message to Jim and Teresa about two weeks before this last audition. Of course, they were devastated with that news, but they hung in there 'cause basically what I was saying was, Look, that's not how I feel. Once we get the deal, we'll do what we want to do, but we've gotta' hang in there to get the deal. So that was kind of where I was coming from. I just, I wanted this thing to happen. I was 43 or 44 years old, so it was like 30 years ago, 35 years ago. And so they agreed to do the audition, all that stuff. We went and did it. And then, of course, we got that news. And that was sort of the end of Reluctant Angel. 'Cause they just like, Well, see you later, Joel (laughter). 00:46:36.000 --> 00:52:37.000 And I just kind of went into a really deep depression. The thing that kept me going was that they had said that when we had the first audition, they had told us that they didn't think that the drummer and the guitar player really, they didn't really care for what they were doing on the demos. They think we needed that, but they wanted me to find another guitar player 'cause they thought that, what they said--it was kind of cruel 'cause what they said about Davey--'cause Davey had had a couple of failed deals over the years. And they just said he's kind of considered to be used goods. This is how they talk about people in the music business that don't become really successful. Then if they've had a couple of record deals and they've never become successful, even if their music's really good, then they're considered used goods. It's sad. It's not very nice. We never told him that, but we did get a different guitar player, who did the second audition with us. And he was a guy that I had met in high school. He was a couple years younger than me, a fabulous guitar player. And when I was in high school, we had these hootenannies, you know, and everything was acoustic folk music. And he was in a different folk group. He was the, actually the younger brother of a classmate that I knew that was a year ahead of me. And he was a couple years behind me. So when I was in high school, he wasn't quite there yet. And then my junior year, he was a freshman. And we never played music together back then, but I recognized him as a really good guitar player. So then, later, after we got outta' school, I did a couple of demos at a couple of different studios. And I brought him to play guitar on some of those. And that was sort of the extent of our relationship. I actually knew his family because his family and my family had been friends, local friends in the town we grew up in, Covina, California. And his dad, they had a Quaker background. And so when I applied for my conscientious objector (CO) status, he was my counselor, and he was kind of the guy, who I worked with to make sure that, to try to make sure that I would have the copacetic answers for the questions that the draft board was gonna' probably ask me. And I think I covered that in my other interview. They turned me down, so I wasn't a CO. So I got Carl Johnson to come play with me, and he did that second audition with us. And then after the whole thing fell apart, turns out Carl had stopped playing music when he'd gone to college, and he'd become like a, what do you call it? Not really a psychologist, but a psychiatric counselor, like a marriage counselor, relationship counselor. And that was what he was doing for a living when I contacted him to bring him in as the new guitar player. He had been kicking himself for about three years because he wanted to get back into music. And every time he'd think about it, he'd sort of make a commitment that he was gonna' do it and then never did it. So when I called him, it pulled him back into music. So he was really excited 'cause it gave him an excuse, and he was able to sort of justify it with his job. And he was still a really great guitar player. So we started playing together as a duo after Reluctant Angel broke up. And I'm still working at the Wild Animal Park during all of this. So we're playing these little coffee house shows here and there. Any place we could play, all the way up to Ventura--from San Diego up to Ventura--any coffee house, Riverside County. We're just driving everywhere and playing for like nickels and dimes. Which I think anybody that's dedicated to the music and their art in that way, I think would do that because it just, it's not about the money, it's really not. It's just about doing something you really feel a calling and a love to do. And so, um, we were playing these little coffee houses and there was a coffee house that popped up in Poway, and you've probably heard of it 'cause it's had a few different incarnations but Java Joe's, And Joe Flammini, had this coffee house that he started. And there were a couple people that were starting out, young people that were playing acoustic music. And I heard about this one guy, John Katchur, who was playing there. He is still--I just played a show with him last weekend. We're still friends. And so we went down to check it out, and they had like open stage nights. And I started, called Carl and had him come with me. And we started playing those, and we met another guy down there who was at the time, a percussionist and was playing with different people. He's now pretty well known in San Diego. He's won a bunch of San Diego Music Awards and stuff. But he started playing with us, playing percussion with us. Jeff Berkley was his name. And then my daughter, who was kind of hitting the wall at NAU (Northern Arizona University) in Flagstaff, 'cause she wanted to be in the music program, and she already had a lot of experience because she'd taken private music lessons, Suzuki violin and piano lessons. But there were a lot of classes she was required to take that she had already just blasted through all that stuff, and they wouldn't let her, what do they call it when you crash the class or whatever? 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:38.000 Audit. 00:52:38.000 --> 00:53:19.000 Audit the class, right? They wouldn't let her audit the classes. So she got very discouraged and her--actually, one of her instructors said, Hey, look, you know, you're a really good player. Your dad's got a band, you're flying in into California on weekends to play with him. You don't really need to get a degree in music to be valid. You're already a valid playing instrumental player. And so she kind of went with that, and she came back home and started playing in my band. So it was the four of us. 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000 And that was the Joel Rafael-- 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:26.784 That's the Joel Rafael Band. Yep. 00:53:26.784 --> 00:53:33.000 And what year would you say that it was when that title came to fruition? 00:53:33.000 --> 01:06:34.000 Yeah, 1993. And we released our first album in 1994, and it was a self-titled, The Joel Rafael Band. And you've got that in your collection. Right then was when radio was going through a big transition, and there were some new genres that were established. Not Americana yet, but it was AAA and AA. So AA was--AAA was Adult Album Alternative. So it was album tracks. And then the other one was Adult Alternative? I don't know, I can't even remember what they stood for, but it was AA and AAA. And they were allowing a lot of independent music. I mean, it was getting into the mix. It wasn't just big labels. And just happened that in Carlsbad there was a station that was a AAA reporting station. So they report to the periodicals that list the charts for the different genres, or there was a rock or folk--or I don't know if there was a folk one--but there was rock and country, and I dunno' if they called it oldies or pop, whatever. So the AAA was a very open format and KKOS was the station in Carlsbad. And they were a very small station, not a huge transmitter or anything, but they were a reporting station. So they reported their playlist to Billboard and Record World and another periodical that was called the Gavin Report, which is no longer around. And so all of a sudden, we were showing up on playlists in some of these magazines, which caused other stations to pick up our record. And we'd sent our record, my daughter and myself, we formed a record promotion team. So she was still in school in--not Jamaica, but my other daughter, my younger daughter, Corrina. She was in school at Northern Arizona University, also. And was doing--she had a radio show at a radio station there. And we decided to, we got onto the whole idea and concept of how this worked with the record promotion and stuff. And there were certain call days when you could call the stations and talk to the program directors. And they would only take calls on like Tuesday and Wednesday between these hours. So we got our record to all of those stations that were reporting stations for AAA. And I think there were, there were probably about 70 stations, and pretty soon we were getting played on about 30 of them. But mainly due to the fact that on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, when those call days were supposed to happen, she would call--we would split up the list of the 70 stations, and she would call--over two days--she would call 35 of them, and I would call 35 of them from my office at the Wild Animal Park (laughter). Which was probably not allowed. But there were so many calls being made from the Zoological Society, long distance calls. It was minimal. So I mean, I had a lot of time when I was really busy in the job that I had there, and I had other times I just wasn't so busy. We didn't have any shoots or any people coming in for a story. I was basically just doing stuff in my office. And I'd slip in these calls to promote my record. And not with my name, though. I made up--I don't remember what the name was--but I made up a name. I'm so-and-so record promoter for this small label, Reluctant Angel Records. And the group, Reluctant Angel--no, it wasn't Reluctant--it was Joel Rafael Band at that point. And we managed to get our record on 30 or 35 stations. The irony of the situation was that no one could get our record. We didn't have distribution, so they could hear it on the radio, but they couldn't find it anywhere. It wasn't in any stores or anything, you know? We were developing mailing lists and just trying to figure out different ways to get it out there. And playing every gig we could play, every coffee house, every club gig we could get. Just before the band formed, just backing up a little bit, Carl's wife said, Hey, there's gonna' be a contest. They're having a big festival at UCLA (University of California Los Angeles). This was in '93. So it was just before, the year before our record came out. And I hadn't formed the band yet, but Carl and I were playing as a duo after Reluctant Angel had fallen apart. And so she said, Yeah, they're having a contest at this club called Highland Grounds in Hollywood. Over two days, they're gonna' have people come in and play two songs each after they screen--they're gonna' screen the demos, and then they're gonna' pick--I forget how many people, I think 20 people. And then they're gonna' over two days, they're gonna' have those people each come in and play two songs each. And then a panel of judges--I think there were three or four judges--would determine two winners. And then those winners would be the opening acts on Saturday and Sunday for the Troubadours of Folk Festival at UCLA. I can't think--Drake Stadium is where they had it, which is their big football field. And it was being produced by this guy, who had been a really big concert promoter in the seventies and eighties named Jim Rissmiller. He'd had a group called Wolf and Rissmiller, which is a big concert promoter back in the day. And so I met this guy, Jim Rissmiller, because I won the contest. Carl and I went, and we won the contest. I actually knew I was gonna' win before they announced the winners, because there's a show that was long established in Los Angeles called Folk Scene, and it airs on KPFK, and it started in 1971. So it's still running. It's a syndicated folk interview show, and they interview national touring folk acts--the top people basically--on that show when they have new records coming out and stuff. And I had met them years ago because when I discovered the program in the seventies I went up there. I never got on the show back then because I wasn't good enough (laughter). But I did meet Howard and Roz Larman, who put the show on and got to know them. And they were the kind of people that kept track of who was doing what in music, in folk music. And so they'd kind of followed me over the years. And so when this contest came down, they were two of the judges. And the other two judges were the people I mentioned in my interview last time, Len Chandler and John Braheny, who ran the Alternative Chorus Songwriter Showcase, who 15 years previous had spotlighted my songs, so they knew who I was. So all of a sudden, we show up on this show at Highland Grounds on one of the nights and play two songs. And then somewhere between when they announced the winners, I guess I--I don't remember why I was talking to Roz Larman, but for some reason I was on the phone with Roz Larman, and she said, Well, you know you're gonna' win, don't you? And I said, Well, no, I don't know that. And she said, Well, believe me, take it from me. You're gonna' win. And I said, Well, how can you say that? They haven't announced the winners yet. And she says, Well I'm one of the judges. I said, Yeah. And she says, And I know all of the acts in Los Angeles. She said, And I'm just telling you, you're gonna' win. And, you know, that was pretty cool for her to say that. Those are the kind of people that, people like that, that have come along that that will tell you in honesty. They're not just blowing hot smoke, but they'll tell you in honesty what they think. They'll tell you if they think it's bad, and they'll tell you if they think it's good. And I've had people tell me both. People you can trust to tell you the truth. And that can be really valuable especially if they're telling you, giving you constructive criticism. 'Cause we don't see ourselves the way other people see us. And so there's a bit of calculation that goes into something like that when you're presenting something. You wanna' get it right. And so we did, we won that contest. And so we opened that show at Troubadours of Folk Festival. And, of course, this was after that whole deal had fallen through and everything. And this is kind of a cool thing. So we were on at eleven o'clock in the morning, like the whole thing's gonna' go all way into the night and then into the next day. And we were on first at eleven in the morning, as people are still kind of coming into the stadium. So at ten o'clock in the morning, they had us go up and line check, just make sure everything was--and the lighting grid wasn't even up yet. It was like down here, you know? 'Cause they hadn't even pulled it up yet, and it was raining. And it was a rainy morning. And so I'm up there, and we're just checking out the sound system. I just feel somebody tapping me on the shoulder, and I look, and it's Paul Rothchild. And he had come because he had actually produced some of the acts that were on the show--Peter, Paul and Mary, and Judy Collins. And I mean, that show had everybody on it. You know, John Prine, Tom Petty, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Bonnie Rait, Joni Mitchell made her comeback at that show. She hadn't played in like, I don't know, seven years or something like that. And it was crazy just all the stars from the folk world that were there. And that just really warmed my heart. I said, Paul, what are you doing here? He said, I came to see you (laughter). So that was really cool. And then he introduced me to Peter, Paul and Mary that day and to a bunch of people, which was really, really great. And one of the people he introduced me to was Peter Yarrow. And told me about--that he's a really good songwriter and this and that. And Peter says. Well, do you know about the Kerrville Folk Festival? And I go, No. And he goes, Well, the Kerrville Festival, it's in Kerrville, Texas, and that's the real songwriter festival. He says, You've gotta' come to that. Well, I kind of filed it. And then Paul Rothchild took me aside--and I can put this in my biography, I don't care. 'Cause most of these people aren't even alive anymore. But, Paul, I said, Wow, thank you for introducing me to them, to Peter, Paul and Mary. Me and my wife grew up on them. We went to see them when we were in high school on dates. And he says, Yeah, yeah, they're great people. He said, But don't ever give them America Come Home. It's one of my songs. And it was like one of the songs that Paul really liked. And I said, Really? He says, Yeah, if they ever ask you for it, don't ever give it to 'em. And I said, Why? He says, Because they don't sell 12 records (laughter). That's the ways people talk. I go, Oh, well, okay. You know, so I filed that. 'Cause that's all gonna' be relevant later (laughter). So we played that show. Let's see. And then we found our way to Java Joe's, and we formed the Joel Rafael Band. So, I'm already there. We recorded our first record. We got it on the radio. Let's see. 01:06:34.000 --> 01:08:58.000 Okay, so while we were recording the first record, I'm at my office 'cause I'm still working at the Wild Animal Park. And this is 19--1994. Probably April of 1994. And I get a call at my office, and it's John Kachur, this other songwriter guy. Hey, do you know about the Kerrville Folk Festival? Well, this is a year-and-a-half later from when Peter Yarrow told me about that. And I go, Oh yeah, I think I've heard of that (laughter). I didn't remember. It sounds familiar. Yeah. Well, what's that? He goes, It's a festival in Texas. And he says, And they have a contest--they have the New Folk contest there. And every year, they pick six new folk artists out of 32 artists that are screened to perform there. And then they pick six artists that get to come back and perform the following week on the festival, and the deadline for submitting material--because I missed it the year before when I saw, when I met Peter, and that was the summer of '93. Well, now we're in the spring of '94. And he says, And the deadline is tomorrow to submit. And I just happened to have two songs on a cassette tape that we were recording for the album. One of 'em was America Come Home, and the other one was Solo Pasando, I think it was called. And so we--I packed those up with, I typed out the lyric sheets, stuck them in a FedEx envelope and then ran down to FedEx right after work, or I, maybe I left early that day. And FedEx was in, right? San Marcos, their main office. So I drove over there, and I sent that to the Kerrville Folk Festival. Just before the deadline. And I got picked. And so in May of 94, I went to Kerrville to compete with the New Folk performers. 01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:01.000 And was this with the band or just you? 01:09:01.000 --> 01:17:38.000 No, what, what I did is--well wait a minute. No, it was with the band. So what I did is, my daughter was coming from Northern Arizona University to play with us on weekends. She was still going to school because this was early in the incarnation of the Joel Rafael Band. And when I got the invite, I decided, yeah, I'm gonna' take my band. So I took Jeff, and I took Carl, put it on a credit card, we booked our flights, flew out there. They gave us camping, but we stayed in a hotel 'cause I wasn't gonna' try to camp and play. I was already in my mid-forties at that point, going on 50. I just didn't want to camp (laughter). And so we got there, we went through the competition, and then on Sunday, just before the main show, they announced the winners. And we were sure we won. We just felt so strong about it, the three of us. And they started calling the names--five, six. Oh, that's it. Oh. Oh, we didn't win (laughter). So we were a New Folk finalist, but we didn't win. So that was disappointing and expensive. So we came back home, and we just kept playing as a band. My daughter--then she came--was home. And so then it was the four of us all the time. And then, the next year came around, and we were recording our second album. It wasn't done yet, but I just decided, well, I'm gonna' go ahead and--if you don't win, you can enter again. So I sent two more songs to Kerrville, and I got picked again (laughter). So '95 we went back. And this time I took my daughter. I left my band. I left the Carl and Jeff, and I took my daughter, Jamaica. And the two of us went and that was '95. And we played. And I just really had my emotions in check. It was like, that was really pretty hard last year to go through all that--come here, do this, so far from home. And then--'cause we hadn't been traveling that much yet. And then to play and feel really good about your performance and then not make the cut. It was, it was disappointing. And so I just, in preparing Jamaica for it, I said, look, you know, there's like 32 people we're competing with here over the weekend. And there's a lot of really good songwriters. It's all about songwriting, and people coming from New England and from the South and from Canada and just all over the place. And we, we're from California. And so we're waiting the night--on Sunday when they're announcing the winners. And they announced the first winner, and, I'm just thinking, I'm just gonna' keep my emotions in check 'cause there's a real good chance we're not gonna' get picked. And they announce the second person, and it's us. So we go up there. We had gone around to, in '94, we had gone around to some of the campfires 'cause after the show, they have the--it's a big ranch. It's like a maybe 30-acre ranch. And so after the show, which is in this one area of the ranch, they have these camping areas, and people form these campfires. And they--it's been going on for so long that they have names. You know, there's Camp Cuisine, and there's Camp Stupid, and there's Camp--they have all these funny names for these camps. And so the first year when we were finals, me and Jeff and Carl went down, and kind of nobody would really let us in the circles. It was very kind of clique-ish. And so, I walk up on the stage--me and Jamaica walk up there--and I'm standing next to this guy, Tim Bayes. He's from Nashville, and he's a songwriter. He was the first guy they called. And I had met him earlier already and real nice guy. And he just looks over at me and he says, Now see if they'll let you in the campfires when you go down there. It was pretty cool. And it was like recognition, you know? And so we went down and got to play in the campfires. And that was a really, a real good kickoff for us. We got a couple more festivals after that in Texas. Rod Kennedy, who was the guy that had established the Kerrville Folk Festival and was still running it then, he's passed away now. And they've had a couple more directors since then. But we became kind of like his pets. He just loved our band. And so we played, I guess it was the 25th anniversary show. And then they have a summer show and then they have one in the fall called Wine and Music, Kerrville Wine and Music, at the same place. Smaller festival. And so he had us on the Wine and Music that year. And then the next year, we were on the main festival again. And then we weren't on Wine and Music, but the next year, we were on Wine and Music. For like about four years, just every year he had us on one or both of the festivals. And so Kerrville kind of became, that became kind of our spot. And you, it's like just being accepted in Texas as a songwriter, it's kind of kind of weird, but it was great. And so that really was a big stepping stone, that Kerrville Folk Festival 'cause it's kind of a nationally known thing. And you can kind of use that to parlay onto other things--winner, New Folk winner at the Kerrville Folk Festival. I mean, it's not such a big deal to me anymore, but it was a really big deal then. And it was--allowed me to get some other engagements, open up some other doors. So we played everywhere. We played Rocky Folks Festival in Colorado, and we played the South Florida Folk Festival, and we played the Kerrville Folk Festivals. And we played shows in Minnesota, and we were just going everywhere. (This interview has been edited at the request of the narrator.) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> video 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview September 23rd, 2025. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part two interview, Rafael discusses the evolution of his musical career and the formation of The Joel Rafael Band. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States San Diego Wild Animal Park Folk festivals California condor — Conservation — United States Record labels Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) West (U.S.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Burbank (Calif.) Poway (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Kerrville (Texas) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Art and artists Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/13134d02db11b020ca74cefe02bf7d86.pdf 2bc5a9d5da4cccd177519f4ba03d3105 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, September 23, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part two interview, Rafael discusses the evolution of his musical career and the formation of The Joel Rafael Band. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-23 Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States San Diego Wild Animal Park Folk music festivals—United States California condor — Conservation — United States Record labels Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) West (U.S.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Burbank (Calif.) Poway (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Kerrville (Texas) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23_transcript Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Folk music;songwriter;counterculture;Woody Guthrie OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. SC027-086 02:06:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Folk music ; songwriter ; counterculture ; Woody Guthrie Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1f874004b7ad7b916e612b2588ed3fb1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 56 Early childhood and musical beginnings Rafael talks about how he become involved with playing music through public school music programs. He started as a drummer and began playing in a cover band at an early age. music education ; drummer ; Everly Brothers ; The Beatles 0 397 Adolescence and folk music influence Rafael discusses how folk music began to become popular in 1960 and how it began to influence his musical tastes. He acquires his first guitar, learns to play and performs in hootanannies. Kingston Trio ; guitar ; solo artist ; Hawaii ; Joan Baez ; Bob Dylan ; hootananny ; Woodie Guthrie 0 1421 Influence of political assassinations and discrimination on development of political leanings Rafael reflects on turbulent times during high school including several political assassinations and how they affected him. His Jewish family experienced discrimination through redlining. political assassination ; Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; John Fitzgerald Kennedy ; Robert F. Kennedy ; Covina ; West Covina ; Jewish ; redlining ; John Birch Society 0 2236 The Vietnam War The Vietnam War begins, and Rafael discusses having to register for the draft. He attended college for one year and re-connects with his future wife, Lauren, at this time. draft ; anti-war ; college ; California State University Fullerton ; conscientious objector 0 3098 Move to Oregon Rafael talks about moving to Oregon, joining the counterculture movement, and getting arrested for drugs after an undercover operation. counterculture movement ; Oregon ; drugs ; arrest 0 4886 Move to Escondido and birth of first child After the loss of Rafael's father, he and he wife move to Escondido to help tend his family's avocado orchard. Soon after, their first child, Jamaica, was born. Escondido ; avocado orchard ; first child ; Jamaica ; natural childbirth ; grove service 0 5483 Making headway with music career Rafael discusses the development of his music career in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase is a key highlight of this development. During this time he forms a duo with Rosie Flores. Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase ; Colin Young Band ; Goldmine ; Rosie Flores 0 6807 Opening act for Rick Danko and subsequent connections and successes Having moved back to North San Diego County, Joel recounts his big break in opening for Rick Danko and the subsequent pattern of becoming an opening act for many successful bands. Rick Danko ; promoter 0 7180 Becoming knowledgeable about Woody Guthrie Rafael begins to research Woody Guthrie and the people he had influenced. He learned a number of Woody Guthrie songs. Woody Guthrie ; Bob Dylan ; Harold Leventhal 0 Oral history Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is August 20th, 2025. This interview is taking place at Joel Rafael's studio at his home in Escondido, California, which is on the unceded territory of Luiseño/Payómkawichum people. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.094 You're welcome. 00:00:29.094 --> 00:00:33.725 Alright, so let's start off with the early years. When and where were you born? 00:00:33.725 --> 00:00:39.234 I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1949, May 11th. 00:00:39.234 --> 00:00:56.274 Okay. So you've been writing and performing for over fifty years beginning in the sixth grade. So how did it come to be that you were performing at such a young age, and how did you learn to play music and-- 00:00:56.274 --> 00:06:26.115 Well, I grew up in California 'cause my parents moved us out here to the Los Angeles County area in, when I was about three years old. So I guess probably 1952. And the California school districts had a really great music programs in those days. And so I was fortunate for the whole time that I was in school up through high school there was an excellent music program in every school that I was in. So it was probably about the fourth grade a music director came around to our classroom and basically, you know, Who wants to be in the band? And handed out, I guess some kind of a permission slip. And I jumped on that right away. I already was a music lover just from playing phonograph records at home. I think I mentioned this to you before, but I was a latchkey kid before the term was invented. So, in my early elementary school days when I would get home from school, I literally had a key on a shoe string to open my door because my parents were both at work. And I would fill my time with--a lot of my time with--going through my parents' records and just exploring the music they had. So that's how my love for music first started. And then, and of course, I had a little phonograph myself with a lot of children's records and children's music and that kind of thing. But I started playing music in the fourth grade, beginning band. I started out as a drummer. I had already taken some accordion lessons because my brother, who's two years older than me was taking accordion lessons. And that was kind of the mode, you know, everything my brother did then my parents would have me do that later. And so he was playing accordion so then I was playing accordion. But I started out on this small little twelve bass accordion and progressed pretty quickly. But unfortunately, I was pretty small in stature. And so when it was time for me to move on to the bigger accordion, it was really just, it was too much to handle. So that was the end of my accordion lessons. And then it was shortly after that, that this band thing happened at school, and I decided I would play the drums, which in beginning band meant the snare drum. So that was kind of how I started out, just playing the beats on the snare drum. And at a certain point, I really wanted a drum kit. And at some point, I guess it was probably around the fifth or sixth grade--probably around the fifth grade--I was able to coerce my dad into going to a music store. I think it was in Pomona, California. And we bought a used, really put together drum set and moved that into my bedroom. And then I started to bring some of my school friends over on the weekends. My mom would take me over, we would pick up a couple of friends and bring 'em to my house. And one of 'em played the trumpet and one of 'em played the clarinet, also beginning band members. And we worked out some very simple tunes. That was kind of my first combo. And by the time I got into junior high school, a better drum kit was required. And somehow I managed to get my dad to buy that for me. And I guess my second band was a surf band in a friend's garage in the town I lived in. I would ride my bike over there. My drums were parked in the garage at his house. Robbie Brandon was his name. And he had a friend named Lynn Lewis. And they--one of them played--Robbie played guitar, electric guitar, and Lynn played bass. So it was a three-piece band. And we basically played surf band covers--a few Everly Brothers songs that required singing, and neither of them sang. So we bought a boom microphone, and I was a singing drummer. As a drummer going into high school, I started playing a, well, I guess you'd call it a cover band. We were playing the, basically the songs that were on the radio at that time. And that was about the time that The Beatles became prevalent in the years of the U.S. And we were playing some Beatles songs and Rolling Stones songs and stuff like that. School dances, sock hops. Back in those days, they didn't have DJs. We always had live bands. And so I was one of those lucky kids that was in one of those bands. And that was a great experience as a kid. It was--really felt unique to be in a musical group. So let's see, should I continue on the musical path? Am I jumping the gun here? 00:06:26.115 --> 00:06:31.110 Well, no, I think we're gonna' get into it more. 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:33.435 Okay. I was just kind of tracing my musical-- 00:06:33.435 --> 00:06:35.245 Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:35.245 --> 00:16:42.325 --progress. From there, folk music became, started to become popular probably around 1959, 1960. And, they call it the Folk Scare of the Sixties. And I think that's because no one ever thought that folk music would be played on the radio, and some of the stuff that was played on the radio was the more commercial kind of folk stuff, like the Kingston Trio. And John Denver, I guess, was probably around that time. Chad Mitchell Trio. I think John Denver was in the Chad Mitchell Trio before he was a solo artist. So those were the songs I was listening to. I remember Joan Baez had a hit with a Phil Ochs song called, There but for Fortune, that really intrigued me. And I just felt the necessity to, at that point, to kind of step away from the drum kit and learn how to play the guitar so that I could be up front singing the songs. And so I talked my parents into going to, down to Tijuana during the summer, probably the summer of '61, maybe. And we bought a very inexpensive guitar in Tijuana. I think it was about 30, 35 dollars. And that's what I learned to play the guitar on. I had a couple of friends that were--they had, there were about four of 'em, school friends, that had put together a little group, and they were doing mostly Kingston Trio songs. And I went up to play with them when they had their rehearsals, a couple of times. Just enough to learn a few chords and a couple songs. And then I was on my own. I was a solo artist from then on. I'm not sure why, but I just decided I was gonna' do my own thing. And so I started learning songs and getting better on the guitar. Around 1960--probably the summer of 1963--might have been--it was either '63 or '64. Might have been '64. Anyways, one of those two years. My dad decided to take my family on a family vacation for the summer to Hawaii. Hawaii had just become a state like a few years earlier. And he was curious about it, and we were curious about it. So we took a trip there, and we went to a few different islands, I think three different islands. And the third island we went to was, was the island of Kauai, which was very undeveloped at the time. And so we landed in Kauai, and we stayed at a place called the Hanalei Plantation, which is still there. It's a resort hotel that was originally a sugar plantation. And at the time, I think it was the only like sort of resort or hotel to stay at on the island of Kauai. It was just, there just wasn't much there. So we checked into our rooms, and right after we got into our rooms, my parents got a phone call from a guy who had just checked in and had noticed that my parents were from the same town, Covina, California. And he invited my parents and me and my brother to come down to the little restaurant bar area at the hotel and have a drink. So we went down there to meet this guy. And this is kind of an anecdotal story, but I think it's an important one. So when we met him, he was very much like a John Wayne kind of character, big cowboy kind of dude. He'd already had a few drinks, so he was obviously a drinker. He started telling us his story. And he had told us that he was one of the original models for the Marlboro Man posters with the cowboy and the horse that you'd see along the highways at that time. And he was a stunt man, had been in the Marine Corps. He told us that he had--that they had filmed Mister Roberts there at Kauai. And they had done a lot of filming at Hanalei. And that was one of the reasons he came back there 'cause he was familiar with it. But when they did that movie, he was the guy that drove the motorcycle off the pier in the scene where the sailors get liberty and they get off the ship. And then they're celebrating, this one guy drives a motorcycle off the pier into the ocean. And it was this guy, Jack Lewis. And he told us that he was there, that he was partners with a guy in Covina that owned a magazine called Gun World, which, you know, back in the early sixties, it was a just a, an NRA type magazine, but not the NRA as the NRA is today. It was more about hunting and gun safety and the newest rifles and firearms that were on the market or whatever. And so he said, yeah, he was there to take a helicopter flight the next day into some uncharted areas of Kauai to take some photographs of this rifle that he had. And it was like a .38 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight on--like big hunting gun. And he looked at my brother and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And my brother said, No. And so he looked at me and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And I said, Yeah. And my dad said, no, no, no, no, he can't go. He's too young. You know, I think I was fifteen and--just had turned fifteen. And this guy goes, oh, please sir, let your son go. This will be the adventure of a lifetime. I'm not gonna' be flying the helicopter. I've chartered a pilot and a photographer, and there's four seats, so there's an extra seat in the helicopter, and you should really let your son go. This will be like a once in a lifetime experience. And my dad relented and said, okay. So next morning we go down, and there was a place where a helicopter could land at Hanalei. We walked down there and met him, and then the helicopter came in and landed, and we got in the helicopter, and we flew out over these just amazingly scenic places on the island of Kauai. And landed about three different times where this guy Jack got out and walked a hundred yards away from the helicopter and fired a couple shots and walked back towards the helicopter with the gun. And we did that about three or four times. And I think due to his alcoholic nature, he was pretty exhausted by the time we got back in the helicopter to fly back to the resort. And on the way back, he said you know, he complimented me. He said, boy, we really worked our, you know, off today. Um, you know, kid, thank you. You really helped me out. You know, he's just giving me all this hot air. And so on the way back, he says to me, How do you like this gun kid? And I, you know, I'm fifteen years old, you know, 19-early sixties, and I said, oh, you know, I love the gun. It's awesome. I don't even know what I said, but that was my, what I implied to him is that I really thought it was great. So he says, It's yours. So, you know, I'm fifteen, right? So we get off the plane and I'm carrying this rifle in a leather case, walking toward my dad, who really did not like guns at all. He was a World War II Veteran. He had been in the invasion of North Africa, and he'd seen plenty of violence that he never talked about it, but it was obvious from the way he felt about guns, even at that time in my life. And so he goes, what are you doing with that? And I go, Jack gave it to me, You know, I'm all excited. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, you don't. Well, this guy, Jack, you know, right away started again on my dad. Oh, sir, you gotta' let him keep it. He told me that you, you have a guy that works for you that goes hunting sometimes, you know, let him keep, let him keep the rifle. He was so great today. He helped me out so much. Just all this BS. And my dad relented. This was like '64. And so after we finished our trip, we flew back to Maui, I think it was, and then back to Oahu with the gun. Checked the gun and the ammunition, flew home with it, you know, it was a different time. Security was not what it is today. Flew home with a gun. The gun went in the closet, the ammo got locked away somewhere. And a month or so later, school started. And I was talking to a friend at school who lived with his dad, single parent, and they went hunting quite a bit. I told him about this gun. He really wanted to see it. And so I brought him home one day after school, and we got it out of the closet, and he looked at it. A couple days later, he called my house and said that he would really like to buy the gun from me. And he offered me $125 for the gun. So I had my eye on this guitar, down with a Covina music store. It was a G-10 Goya Swedish-made classical guitar that was real nice little guitar. And so he paid me the $125. And I went down to that store, and I bought that guitar. And I've never owned a gun since then. So I like to say my gun--my guitar is my gun, and my songs are my bullets. 00:16:42.325 --> 00:16:48.436 Mm. That's profound. So-- 00:16:48.436 --> 00:16:53.529 --that was my start playing guitar. 00:16:53.529 --> 00:17:07.025 Yeah. So can you tell me about the people or music--and you mentioned this a little bit--that influenced you at this young age, and as you moved into performing? 00:17:07.025 --> 00:21:23.755 Pretty much anything that I ran across that was like considered folk music at that time. The schools, it was all of a sudden folk music was sort of happening. It was the sixties folk movement. And the high schools were having what they called hootenannies, sort of like what you called open stages today. But they called it hootenannies, which was a term that was coined by Pete Seeger, when people would get together and share songs. And so we'd have these hootenannies, and they would be like talent contests at the various high schools. There were three high schools in our area. And so I started entering those contests after I'd learned a few songs. And wasn't really writing much at that time. I was just mostly just playing songs. So I was playing songs that were by Joan Baez, the Kingston Trio. There was a guy named Tim Morgan that was a local artist that had influenced me and another guy that I saw in Glendale. There was a lot of small clubs around at that time. Like, there was a club in Balboa Peninsula in Newport Beach area called The Prison of Socrates. And it's still there, but it's like a pizza parlor now. But it was a coffee house that had folk music, like three, four nights a week there. And there was another one in Seal Beach called the Cosmos. And, of course, there was the Troubadour in Los Angeles and the Ice House in Pasadena. There was a second Ice House in Glendale. So they all had open stages. So after I kind of perfected my beginning act with a guitar, I was hitting those open stages and the hootenanny contest at the high school, and I did really well. I was, I would win the first or second place at the hootenannies. And I was able to get on those open stages. And that's kind of where I cut my teeth as a performer, as a young person. So my influences were basically just the songs I was playing, like Richie Havens was an influence. I had a record of his that had a couple of folks songs on it. One was called, Hey, Nelly. Nelly, that I liked to sing. I think that was written by Shel Silverstein. I started to pay attention to writers a little bit. I knew that the song that Joan was doing, Joan Baez was doing, There but for Fortune, was a Phil Ochs song. I heard about Bob Dylan, but I didn't know too much about him. My next door neighbor, who was a couple years older than me, had a Bob Dylan album that she had bought, and she didn't really care for it that much, so she gave it to me 'cause I was curious, And it was, I think it was Bob Dylan's probably his third album. You know, it took me like three albums to actually hear Bob Dylan. It was Another Side of Bob Dylan was the album. And at the first listening, it just like, really took me back. Whoa, that's just so different. You know? It was just I won't say it was repelling or bad, like some people have said. It was just different, you know, it was just so different the way he was using his voice and the barrage of words in the songs. So I picked a couple of songs off of that record that I learned how to play. So he was an influence. Woody Guthrie was an influence, but I didn't really realize it because Woody died the year I graduated from high school, and he was hospitalized for, I think for maybe close to fourteen years before he died. He was institutionalized with Huntington's Disease. And so his songs were around, you know, This Land Is Your Land and This Train (is Bound for Glory), and John Henry, and a few others that were kind of in the popular repertoire that these other groups were doing. So I was hearing groups do some Woody Guthrie songs. So they were, in that sense, some of the first songs I learned how to play, ironically. So that was kind of my high school experience, you know? And so I guess we could pick it up from there. I'm not-- 00:21:23.755 --> 00:21:26.924 Yeah. When did you start writing music? 00:21:26.924 --> 00:21:29.394 I actually wrote probably my first couple of songs-- 00:21:29.394 --> 00:21:32.781 Well, and I guess, how did you learn, that's-- 00:21:32.781 --> 00:29:30.000 Yeah. Well, I don't know. I just, it was just something that I felt I could do. I was listening to songs and deciding which songs I liked. You know, there were songs that stood out and caught me up that I wanted to learn. Some of 'em were too complex for me to learn. I wasn't, skilled enough to just to discern that they were a simple song. But they, by virtue of being in a different key, it was like I could only play in a couple of keys. I had a capo, but I didn't really understand key transitions. I didn't understand that if you put a capo on the second fret of your guitar and play a G, it's actually an A, you know? So you got the whole circle of keys working up the neck of the guitar. And I understood that if I needed the song to be higher, I would move the capo up. If I needed it to be lower, I would move it down or take it off the guitar. But I didn't really know what key I was playing in or understand the relationships between the chord, the chords that were in a certain key. That all kind of came later just from experience, I think. And you meet people along the way. Like I've always--David Amram is the one that said this best. And I've always tried to emulate what he said. He said, I always hang around--try to hang around with people that are smarter than me and more skilled than me because that's how you learn to get better. You know, you don't want to be hanging around with people that--you don't wanna always be the best person there because then you don't ever learn anything. So I try to surround myself with people that know more than I know and are better players than I am, better songwriters than I am, because that's how you improve and develop. And I think that's good advice for anything that, any endeavor. So, let's see, where was I? So in high school, that was a very turbulent time for me. I don't know if that's our next category or not, but as I moved into high school, there was a lot going on. My freshman year in high school, John Kennedy was assassinated, A few years later, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were assassinated, and Malcolm X was assassinated. So this all happened in my youth. And, but these things, these killings of political figures, it was something that was, in my consciousness, was a historical thing. Like Lincoln had been assassinated, and that seemed like to me, as a teenager, seemed like a really long time ago. So, I guess I should mention. So, when I went into high school, I experienced every new school in my area. Okay. So, like in elementary school, I started off in a school called Barranca School. I went there for a year. And then they transferred me over to a new school in West Covina called the Vine School. After two years or three years at the Vine School, they split the districts into West Covina and Covina districts. And I was in the Covina District. So then I went to the new elementary school in the sixth grade, which was a brand new school. So like, no trees, no landscaping, just concrete and pavement and dirt. And so then when I went to junior high school, I went to the established junior high school for one year, my seventh grade year. But in eighth grade, they had built a new junior high school, and they fed that with the two established junior high schools from--depending on where you lived, were fed into that third junior high school. So that was my third new school--no trees, no landscaping, dirt, concrete and pavement. And that was the Sierra Vista Junior High School. And then I went back over to Covina High School, which was the established high school for my freshman year, but they had incorporated--that year they took away one of the junior highs, which was the first junior I'd gone to in seventh grade. That became the campus for most of the freshman classes. But there were some classes, depending on what your curriculum was that you would cross the street over to the high school, to Covina High School. So I was on my way, probably about ten in the morning--I don't, maybe it was eleven in the morning on my way from the junior high school campus--the freshman campus--to the high school campus to go to my French class, first year French. And somebody ran by me and said, President Kennedy's been shot. And I was just like, What? You know, I just made my way to my class and my teacher was crying, and everybody, we found out about it, and it was just like, it was so devastating. It's hard to explain how devastating that was. Because these kind of events we take for granted now. They happen so frequently. We hear about people being killed, or mass shootings, or we hear about even political leaders being killed, heads of corporations being targeted. And it's just like the news of the day. But like when I was, I guess I was thirteen, to have somebody run by and say, the President's been shot. That was shocking, you know? And, and I remember they ended school day that day--within about an hour they ended the school day. And by the time I got home, he was pronounced dead. And I just remember that the silence. There was this silence everywhere. We went up to get something to eat at a restaurant, and there were some other people there, but it was just completely silent and somber. So that was a very emotional experience, and I think it, in some ways, it set a tone for the rest of my experience as a kid. A lot of questions. So then, after my freshman year in high school, there was a new high school near my house. So I went to the new high school as a sophomore. And that was the year that--the summer before my sophomore year was the year that I received that rifle and swapped it for the guitar. So, as a sophomore in high school, I was starting to play the guitar quite a bit and be known kind of as a folk singer. Let's see. (Tear in my eye, sorry.) So, let's see. Moving on through high school. I was politically oriented by the time I got into high school when we had moved to the town of Covina. I guess I should back up. When we first moved to California, we lived with one of my aunts and uncles, my dad's sister, for a few months before we got our own place in La Canada, which is near Pasadena. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.000 Beautiful. 00:29:31.000 --> 00:37:00.704 Yeah. And it was pretty rural at that time outside of Pasadena. My dad had a business in Pasadena--a screen door company. We lived there for about three years. And then we moved to Covina. I didn't know until just a couple years ago--we actually lived in West Covina--even though we were right on the edge of Covina, my dad's business was in Covina, I was in the Covina School District. Even though we were in West Covina, technically. And the reason we were in West Covina--I found out later--was because there was a red line in Covina, and if you were Jewish, you couldn't buy a home in Covina. And some--my dad, we were Jewish and not religious, but just happened to be Jewish. And Covina was an area where there just, there wasn't really any any sign of other Jews around. It was pretty much, you were really in the minority. I mean, you were already in the minority, but I mean, when you moved, when we moved to Covina, there weren't any synagogues or temples, not really a path to continue being religious in any way. We weren't really that religious anyways, I don't think. My dad's family was, I guess what you'd call reformed Jews, pretty liberal Jews. And so there was that sense of isolation a little bit. And I know that my dad he wanted to join the golf club and was turned down. Many years later when my dad had established himself as a community leader, they invited him to join, and he didn't. He turned them down. So, let's see. I had a political orientation because my dad ran for school board. There was a couple of propositions on the ballot when I was--you know, I wasn't voting or anything, but I was just in my parents' household. And I was exposed to the politics that they were experiencing. And at the time that that red line was not just for Jews, but it was also for Black people. And I think probably for Latinos. And there was a law that came up for repeal. It was called the Rumford Act (Rumford Fair Housing Act). And it was the repeal of the Rumford Act--I guess it allowed people to discriminate when selling their house. So if somebody came to buy your house and they were of a minority that you didn't approve of, then you could legally just say that it wasn't for sale anymore or whatever. So there was a repeal of that law that came up, and my dad got really got behind it--a repeal of the Rumford Act. So you couldn't, you could not discriminate anymore. And that passed. And as a kid, we drove around town in a van putting up stickers on telephone poles and anywhere we could put stickers for the No on whatever the proposition was. Fourteen. I can't remember. (It was Proposition 14.) So that was kind of my early political experience, standing up for something that was important to my dad turned out to be important to me, too, in the long run. Although I probably, as any kid, I was probably pretty much unaware of what the real issues were. But I remember the '60 presidential convention. It was on my television, like for the whole time it was on, and I--and that's when I first saw John Kennedy and was just completely taken up with his charisma as a kid. We see films now and stuff, but it's hard to, I think, to really grasp the experience of that time--how it affected the Baby Boomer youth. Anyways, so my dad ran for school board and because there were two seats open on the school board, and there was already two members of the school board that were members of the John Birch Society, which is--I like to describe as the embryo of the MAGA (Make America Great Again) movement. They were headquartered in a town called San Marino, and I dunno, they were ultraconservative, extremist organization--right-wing extremist organization. And my dad--there were also two people running for the two seats on the board that were also in the John Birch Society. So there would've been four members of the school board if they won, that were in the John Birch Society. And there were about maybe fifteen people running for those two seats. And it's a nonpartisan election. It's not a Democrat or Republican election. It's completely nonpartisan. But these John Birch Society members had made it into a partisan thing because they wanted to (reject) federal funding for schools and wanted to write their own local curriculum, a lot like what Oklahoma's doing right now and Florida and some other states. So he got together with a friend of his that was, just happened to be my pediatrician, and my dad was what you would call in those days moderate Democrat. And my pediatrician was a moderate Republican and explained the situation, and they decided that they would form a ticket. And then they invited all of the people that were running for the two seats except for the two members of the John Birch Society over to our house and had a meeting. And basically the end of the meeting was that everyone would drop out of the election and get behind my dad and and my doctor as a ticket to defeat extremists that were trying to take over the school board. And they won. And then my dad later became the president of the school board. So that had a very strong impact on me. Just the strategy of doing that and the way that they managed to win in that situation. That was probably when I was like a freshman or sophomore. So, let's see. Going on from there, what's the next thing on the list? 00:37:00.704 --> 00:37:05.215 Right. So obviously during that time of turmoil of the Vietnam War-- 00:37:05.215 --> 00:37:06.684 --okay. I was thinking that might be right. 00:37:06.684 --> 00:37:11.224 And so the question was how did the Vietnam War affect to your life path and music? 00:37:11.224 --> 00:37:16.625 Majorly. Majorly. 00:37:16.625 --> 01:00:48.764 I guess we started hearing about it when I was a sophomore, just hardly anything. And by the time I was a junior, we're hearing more about it. We didn't know where Vietnam was. Never had heard of Vietnam. I mean at that time, the world was a lot smaller place. It's like sixty years ago. By the time I was a senior, the reality that I was gonna' have to register for the draft on my eighteenth birthday just became more real to me. It wasn't something I really thought about that much, but approaching the age of eighteen, I knew that as soon as I was eighteen, I was required to register for the draft. And there wasn't a lottery or anything then. It was just, you just had to register for the draft. And then it was really more about your pre-induction physical and whether you were going to college, depending on whether you would get a deferment or what category you would be placed into. And I gotta' say, I didn't know anything about the war. I think maybe the bodies were just starting to come home, but we weren't seeing that much of that yet. But I knew it was a war, and I knew that some people that were drafted were being sent over there. And it was scary. It was scary to me 'cause I was already basically, I think, probably by influence of the songs and stuff that I had been learning, I was already pretty much decidedly anti-war. And I was never like a physically, like a fighter, you know? It just wasn't in my nature. And so the whole idea of it really scared me. And there was one teacher that I had that was a Navy veteran. And I don't know if I just went and talked to him or somehow, he ended up kind of counseling me about it. And he was just sort of really downplaying it, like most people don't get hurt when they're in the military. The percentage of people that are actually wounded and hurt is really low compared to the percentage of people that are in the military. And you have as much chance of being killed in an auto accident as you do of being wounded or killed in a war. I wasn't buying any of it, you know, I just wasn't buying it. And it didn't help me one bit, that conversation. So my birthday came around, I registered for the draft. I was planning to go to college, which I did. I think that was a tough road for me right then because my brother, who was two years older, had gone through this whole thing before me and was in college. He was like, I think he was a junior when I was gonna' be a freshman. And he picked a school to go do that was very expensive. And somehow my parents managed to come up with the money to put him through school at USC (University of Southern California). And then when it was my turn to go, I think they were just kind of--they had kind of done that and kind of burned up the budget, burned up the program, burned up the energy on it. It's a lot to get your kid into college. A lot of support system that's needed and hooking you up with the right information and the right kind of counseling. I didn't have good counseling at school.and my parents were just, I think they were just busy. And so I didn't get a lot of guidance about school. My grades were, they were good enough to get into college, but they were marginally good enough to get into college. I had a couple of subject areas that, I was like a C student and mostly Bs and a couple As maybe. So I applied to Cal State Fullerton. It was a new school, and it was close by. And it was convenient. It wasn't necessarily a school that I wanted to go to or that I--it was just, it was sort of the most convenient four-year school. And I applied there, and I got in. So I went to Cal State Fullerton for my freshman year. My first semester I did okay. But by the time my second semester rolled around, I was pretty deeply immersed in--well, I guess you'd call it counterculture transition. Really started probably in my senior year. There just started to be--I don't even know how it all started, the whole counterculture thing. Maybe it was because there was experimentation being done and articles being written and featured in papers and magazines about LSD and about increased cannabis use and the younger generation and the Sunset Strip and the hippies on the Sunset Strip. That would just, was all just happening right in front of me as I was about to leave high school, my senior year in high school. So probably towards the end of my senior year in high school, I started smoking pot with some friends. There weren't very many people that were doing it. Like in my school, there were probably, I could probably count on my hand the people in my high school that I knew that had also smoked pot. And the interesting thing about it was that the demographic of those seven to ten people crossed all social lines. And that hadn't happened to me before. When I was in high school, the social scene was a caste system. There were the poor kids, there were the Mexican kids that were like--the element of the Latino population that were more like the sort of the, I dunno' if they were in gangs, but just had that energy. They dressed differently. They were kind of like the greasers, you know? And then they were the soces (socials or socialites) that had a little bit more money, mostly college prep kids, that dressed a little nicer, you know? And I was kind of on the edge of that group, you know? And, but all of a sudden, people that I would never have talked to or never have known or interacted with were people that I had smoked pot with on the weekend. So at school, all of a sudden you're crossing those lines. You're walking to class and you encounter somebody that's not in your social group at all, and it's like, Hey, Tony! Hey Joel! And other people are going like, Well, how do you know him? It was, but it was very open. There was a--something about it that felt really good in that kind of opening of societal boundaries. And so the last, probably last semester of high school, was very much that kind of a atmosphere, where I was interacting with kids that I hadn't normally interacted with. (We're doing okay there.) And so that kind of set the tone for my college experience. So by my second semester of college, I had--through a guy who was one of my best friends in college and his brother--kind of found my way down to Laguna Beach, which was like, you know, Fullerton was, from where I lived, halfway to Laguna Beach already, And my best friend's brother was the same age as my brother. He was two years older. But they had immigrated here from Canada, like maybe around eighth grade, freshman year high school. So they were basically Canadians, but they were living here. And this Canadian kid, Don, he became my best friend. And his brother was not a soc. He was more, you know, they didn't have a lot of money, my friends. So him being a little older, was kind of in that poor kid, not gonna' be going to college.. perceived as tough and dangerous. They weren't, they were just kids like us, but that was the perception. So anyways, he ended up initially turning us on to marijuana. And it became kind of a regular thing for us, but it moved us away from alcohol. So--'cause a lot of us were drinking at parties and stuff like that, stuff that kids do sometimes in high school. I was definitely open to experimentation as a teenager. So that through him and some people he knew from Claremont that moved to Laguna Beach, I ended up spending the summer--a lot of my second semester and the summer after--in Laguna Beach. And by the time that the school year was rolling around again, I was also spending a lot of time in Los Angeles because there, that's where the open stages were and I was playing music on the Troubadour and the Ice House and the Ash Grove on their open stage nights. And then any other places I could play little coffee houses, that was all still kind of happening. And so I didn't go back to Cal State Fullerton. I decided I was going to enroll at LA City College, the community college in Los Angeles, which would satisfy my 2-S status with the draft. That was basically the reason I was gonna' continue school. I didn't have any academic goals at that point. My goal was to stay out the Army, stay out of the military. And continue hanging out with my counterculture friends. And playing music. And so I rented an apartment in Los Angeles. I got a job working at a liquor store on Sunset Boulevard called Turner Liquors, right on the Sunset Strip. And I was a delivery boy to the stars. So all these movie stars that lived up in the Hollywood Hills and Beverly Hills and everywhere would order their liquor from this place called Turner Liquor Store. And I was the delivery boy. So I met a lot of really interesting people during that time that I delivered liquor to from that store. I worked there for probably, I don't know, probably six months. I went to register at LA Community College. I was late. I went like the last day to register. The way I tell the story is I paid my, whatever it was, $65 or $70 registration fees, went around to pick my classes, which were pretty much--everything I wanted to take was filled. And, pretty much all that was left was like second year basket weaving, prerequisite required. So before the night was over, I went back to the office and just gave them everything back, and they gave me my money back. And I was out of school. Within a few months, I was 1-A with a draft. And that was in 1968. The end of 1968. So my parents were very concerned, like, You need to be in school. Why did you drop out of school? Now you're gonna', now you're a 1-A. You're gonna' get drafted. I said, I'm not gonna' go. My dad encouraged me to apply for a conscientious objector status. So I went through that process, and at the same time, my friends in Laguna--I just, I was hanging out there a lot. There were a lot of acid trips, other psychedelics--no hard drugs but just basically marijuana and mescalin and LSD, mind-expanding experiences with other people, like-minded people. And they had determined--because the police were starting to be very, more proactively enforcing against the counterculture. You know, anybody that looked like a hippie or had long hair or wore bell bottoms or a tie-dyed shirt, you were a target to the police. And in Southern California, it was particularly hostile in certain towns, more so than others. And a few of our friends that were like maybe a little older in the counterculture had moved up to Oregon, up to the Northwest. They were gonna'--in groups, communal groups, we were gonna buy property, find jobs up there and try to make a new life, a different value system. And the people that I was kind of hanging out with decided they were gonna' go to Oregon, and they really wanted me to go with them. And it was big decision time. I was in sort of in the middle of my conscientious objector application process. I had to apply, and then they set up a meeting or an interview with the draft board. Between the time that I applied, which was probably a few months until I got my interview, I was counseled by a guy, who was like a Quaker. He was the father of a friend of mine who, father of a person--who actually later became the guitar player in my, in the Joel Rafael Band--that we'd gone to school together and played a little bit of music together. But he, his, they were Quaker background, and he was counseling kids on the draft because they were pacifists and were encouraging kids that wanted to be conscientious objectors, trying to help them succeed at getting a conscientious objector status. It became known to me at that time that if you were Jewish, your chances of getting a CO were very slim just because you were Jewish, by reputation, I guess, I don't know--Jewish people were thought of as fighters. I don't know why, but it was just a fact that if you were a Jew, you could get a CO, but it wasn't likely. So I did everything I could with, through the counseling, to learn what I could to have a proper interview. And I went for my interview and within a month or two after my interview, they sent me a 1-A. Sorry, you're a 1-A. And so that was about the time that we moved up to Oregon, about twelve or thirteen of us, caravanned up there in a few different vehicles. We didn't have a place. We were just going to the home of some other people that we knew that had moved up there who said, Yeah, you can come and stay with us until you could find a place and get jobs and this kind of thing. And so we headed up there--I just kind of just put it behind me. I didn't care. I was 1-A, I didn't care. I, it was like, Screw the draft board, screw the military, screw the Vietnam War. I'm not going, I don't believe in any of that stuff. And other things are important to me. So I'm going with my friends to the Northwest, and we're gonna' somehow buy a piece of property, and we're all gonna' build our own houses on the property, and we're gonna' have our own community. This is kind of the dream. I see the counterculture people at that time in a couple of different categories. So there were the antiwar protestors. There were the, just the flat out druggies that just, you know, went down. And then the back-to-the-landers. And that was kind of my group. New value system, back to the Earth, all that stuff. And so that formed my value system. I think that, and I've freely admitted that I think that psychedelics had something to do with that. I have friends and for myself as well, you know, when people ask me, How did you become an artist? You know, how did you remain an artist? Sometimes it surprisingly it will start with, Well, when I was a young adult, I took some LSD. That sounds funny, but I mean, there's a truth to that. And now people are microdosing on some of these things, like people that you would never imagine would even try something like that. Or using it for like, mental health therapy and stuff. I think that the counterculture--us counterculture kids--actually pioneered some stuff that stuck. We didn't change the world like we thought we were going to, but we did help perpetrate some changes. So we got up there, and I was contacted--forwarded a letter from my parents saying you're 1-A. You need to be at your draft--at this address on this date for a pre-induction physical to determine if you're physically fit to be in the military. So I'm in Oregon, and I'm supposed to come down to California to go for a physical, and I'm just thinking like, I'm not gonna' get down there for that. And so somebody, I don't know if, how I thought of it, somebody must have said like, Well, why don't you write to your draft board and tell 'em you live in Oregon now? So I did that, and it took them a minimum of three months--it might have been longer, it might have been four months or five months--before they wrote me back and said, Okay, your draft board has now changed to Eugene, Oregon. And this is your pre-induction physical notice. So you're to go to the induction center in Eugene,--or maybe it was in Portland, I don't know where it was--for your pre-induction physical on such-and-such date. So I thought, well, I guess I'll just write them a letter and tell 'em I moved back to California, which I did, and they followed suit several months later, changed my draft board back to Pasadena and sent me another pre-induction physical notice. So then I wrote them another letter, and I told them that I've moved up to Washington state. And so a couple months later I got a letter that said, We've determined that you are avoiding your pre-induction physical. And so on such-and-such date, you are to go to any draft board anywhere and report for an induction physical. And if you're found to be physically fit, you'll be immediately inducted into the armed services. Well, we were living, at that point, we had separated from the group that we had moved up there with. And we were just like a couple and we had-- 01:00:48.764 --> 01:00:50.018 --so this is you-- 01:00:50.018 --> 01:00:51.157 me and Lauren. Yeah. 01:00:51.157 --> 01:00:52.525 And where did you meet? 01:00:52.525 --> 01:00:53.000 We met in high school. 01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:55.317 Okay. 01:00:55.317 --> 01:21:17.420 Yeah, Lauren and I met in high school. Just to backtrack a little bit. I guess it was my junior year. We were both in a play together. And my mother had been--who knew Lauren's mother through the PTA or something--had asked me a few different times, Do you know so-and-so's daughter? She's a year younger than you. Do you know her? I don't think so, but I was kind of wondering who she was. And then I realized that she was in the play. And so she was in the--we had like a multi-purpose room that was where we did our high school plays. And one day, we were there for a rehearsal right near the beginning of the play. And I walked up and introduced myself to her, and she knew who I was, and I offered her a ride home. I had a license at that point, I was a junior. And gave her a ride home, and we started dating, and we had a very up-and-down relationship for my junior and senior year. You know, we were boyfriend and girlfriend and then we broke up, and then we got back together, and then we broke up, and then we got back together. And then when I was gonna' be leaving for high school (college), I was already on my counterculture journey, and she wasn't. And it just, it wasn't gonna' work out. And so I just broke it off. 'Cause I'm going to college. I'm not gonna' be in town anymore. In fact, I moved out of my house maybe two weeks before I graduated from high school. And she wasn't having it, so she followed me, and she finally caught up with me in Laguna Beach at my friend's place. And so she ended up, she was a freshman at Cal State Fullerton also, which she had applied to go to 'cause she thought that I was going there. But then found out that I dropped out. But now she's at Cal State Fullerton. So she then dropped out of school and took the journey north with the whole group. When we got up there, we were kind of estranged at that point. We were like, What is she doing here? You know? We were so young, you know? So we got up there and within, probably within a month, we figured out that the two of us had a whole lot more in common than the people we'd moved up there with--that come from a different background, different value system even than ours, and not one that we could abide. And so it seemed like an eternity, but it really didn't take that long before we split off and--to make our own way. Got into some trouble in Portland, Oregon. I've got a song about it called Old Portland Town. And there was a pretty vibrant counterculture scene in Portland at that time. And Portland was not the city it is today. In fact, I don't know if you know the history of Portland, but it was one of the--it was very racist at one time. And so nothing like it is today. It's one of the more liberal cities in the country now. But at that time, I think that the general population, like what you would call the typical society, this, I don't know how to really describe it, but just the society in general was very intolerant of the counterculture. And so there was a lot of police. There was a very big counterculture scene in Portland, and it was different than down here. Maybe it was just different than what I'd experienced, but in Portland, it was like the whole counterculture, the whole underground, was like one scene. Whereas down here, the people I was hanging with, we were all sort of like-minded. We weren't druggies. We were smoking pot, and we were experimenting with psychedelics, but we weren't doing hard drugs. But in Portland, the hard druggies, the thieves, the hippies, I mean, it was all just mixed up, you know? And there was--they infiltrated the scene with an undercover cop, who infiltrated the scene for about six months. And that was when Nixon was President. And they had, he had the Department of Justice had instigated the no-knock law. So they didn't need warrants to, if they wanted to raid somebody or search their premises, they could just do it with, I guess with probable cause. But they didn't need a warrant. And they had, so they had the no-knock law, and they had another thing called secret indictments, which instead of, once the grand jury had published an indictment for someone, instead of a warrant being issued, they would just stick that over in a file and just like accumulate indictments on a particular scene, which was the counterculture scene in Portland, basically. And so, while we were in Portland--we had actually, we had been down here. We had just come back up to Portland, and we were visiting at a friend's house, and the door got kicked in. And it was raided by a bunch of cops and plain clothes cops, all their guns drawn. It's pretty scary. And there was probably about twelve of us just hanging around at somebody, at this friend's house getting high. And they kicked in the door and then they basically took each one of us into the bathroom and searched us. And they--I think they called a matron for the girls that were there. And they had two secret indictments on me for sales of hashish. And what I had done is I had given a piece of hashish to this undercover guy, who we didn't trust. When we saw him--the first time we saw him--we were sure he was a undercover guy, sure he was a narc. This was what we called, undercover cops back then were narcs, narcotics officers. Well we were sure he was an undercover narc, and we would have nothing to do with him. People were telling us like, Oh no, he's cool. I got high with him the other day. This kind of stuff. And so after several months went by on a very rainy day, we encountered this guy at a park, where a lot of people used to hang out at Laurelhurst Park in Portland. And there was hardly anybody there. Just us, and he walked up to us and started talking with us. And we were standoffish at first, talking and talking. And then finally he said, Well, I'm gonna' go over to the donut shop down at the corner over there and get some coffee. If you guys wanna' come along, I'll treat. And it was rainy, and it was cold, and we went with him. And we sat there and visited with him for quite a while. And I ended up giving him a piece of hashish--break it off--a piece of hashish that I had, giving him a piece of it. And that ended up being two indictments for sales. And so I had to go through that whole court process up there. It really tied up the whole judicial system because they busted about, I think about 280 people over a period of like three days. So they literally had to empty the drunk tank at the jail. They had to empty the juvenile tank at the county jail to move us all into the jail. And so they moved us from the city jail. I guess we went for an indictment and then they moved us into the county jail, issued us uniforms. It was pretty intense. For some reason, Lauren's charges got dropped. So they arrested her, too, but then they dropped her charges--'cause they didn't really have anything on her--the next day. But they had these two indictments on me. There was a bail bondsman that was interested in bailing me out, but my parents decided that they would leave me in jail for a week or two to teach me a lesson. I'm not sure it was a really good lesson. But it affected me pretty heavily. I felt pretty abandoned in there. And finally got out, went to trial, and got two five-year probations concurrent. So it was ten years worth of probation, but they were run concurrently. So it was like, I'd be on probation for five years. And that was in 1969. So other thing--I had to leave the state of Oregon. So we came back down here under the, theoretically under the jurisdiction of my parents. But I moved in with a friend in Los Angeles, and Lauren moved in back with her parents. But we were still a couple. Eventually we found a place in Laurel Canyon, a little house. And this was 1970, so it was right when the Laurel Canyon music scene was just like in full swing. Crosby, Stills & Nash were making their second record. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, I guess would've been. And I got a job. I had learned to do leather, to sew leather clothes from a friend that I had met in my travels--that stayed with us for a while in Oregon, and he had moved on. But he had taught me how to make leather, how to stitch with an awl and stitch leather stuff. And so I got a job at North Beach Leather in Los Angeles. And one of the people that worked there was David Crosby's girlfriend. So in the afternoons, a couple times a week, David would come into the shop, and I dunno' if you remember any of the early pictures of David Crosby, but he always had the leather jacket with the fringe. Well, it came from North Beach Leather. So he would come in to see his girlfriend towards the end of the day, and he was a very down-to-earth, kind of just easygoing person. So that's when I first met David Crosby. Turned out--and this was after, I don't know if you know his history at all--but he had a girlfriend that was killed in a car crash around that time, previous to when I met him. So this girl that I knew, her name was Shelly, that worked at North Beach Leather also, she was his current girlfriend. And she was living in a little house up in Laurel Canyon. But he, David wanted her to move on to his yacht. He had a yacht called the Mayan, you know, famously known yacht, sailboat of David Crosby's. And so she moved on his sailboat and gave us her little house in Laurel Canyon. So we lived there for maybe, I don't know, the rest of the year, maybe six or seven months, while I worked at the leather shop. And then I got a letter from my friend, who had taught me how to do leather. And he was in Seattle, and he was--he had rented a grocery store, like a little grocery store, corner market type thing, a very old neighborhood market. And there was an apartment upstairs. And he had rented that place--it was no longer a market--so he was turning that into a leather shop and was living in the apartment. It was a two bedroom apartment upstairs. And he invited me and Lauren to come up there and help him start this leather shop. So we moved to Seattle, and that was in 1970. I'm still on probation, so they had to change my probation officer to Seattle. I had like monthly visits to a probation officer. They didn't have drug tests back then, so I was never drug tested, but I would have to go visit my probation officer once a month, just check in. I guess he just sort of looked me over and decided if I was okay or not, I'm not sure. But I had, I think, three different probation officers during that time. So we lived in Seattle for not a year. He ended up finding a girlfriend, and she moved in with us. We had had a perfect trio, you know, a perfect triad. But then when she moved in, it just completely messed up the dynamic. And all of a sudden it just, everything was like a lot of friction, and we realized that we needed to leave. So we started looking for another place, and we found, we drove north to where the town of Everett is, north of Seattle. And we went up into the mountains just looking for a place. Like we were literally looking for some old shack or some old house that we could move into, maybe even squat into, but we were just looking for some other place to live. I was twenty, I guess I was twenty years old, and Lauren was like nineteen or something like that. So we, I'm trying to think. Sometimes my chronology's not perfect. Anyway, we moved up there, we moved out of the place in Seattle, and we found a place on the Mountain Loop Highway that runs from a town called Granite Falls. Like we would take the road towards Snohomish, and then you'd hit this town called Granite Falls. And then from there, there was a Mountain Loop Road that went through the mountains through the Cascades--western side of the Cascades--and then came back down in Arlington, Washington, which is like further north. And we got up on that road outta' Granite Falls, and we found a place for rent up there. It was called the Olympic Motel. And it were these little cabins about the size of this room. The whole cabin was about the size of this room. And then there was like a house that the manager lived in, and we rented one of those cabins, I think it was like 60 dollars a month. And we put a wood stove in it, and we lived there for about a month. And one day I was driving up a little further up the road, and there was this old house, like a really old barnwood-looking house. And there were two guys working on a car in the driveway in front of the house. It was like a driveway and a creek and a little bridge over the creek and then this house. And then they were working on this car, and they were both like a counterculture, like hippie types, you know, long hair and--and I thought, Wow, it's some of my people. So I pulled over, and I went over and introduced myself. And they took me across the street and through the woods, there was another little cabin there that a couple other, another couple lived in. So I met them. They were all from Illinois, had migrated to the west and were on their way to Canada to avoid the draft. And turned out that the one couple in the small cabin had been in a fender banger accident and didn't have any insurance and were being kind of chased down by the people who they'd had the accident with. Nobody had been hurt but just for insurance. And so they were kind of on the run. They didn't know what to do, so they were gonna' go back to Illinois. So they left, and they said, You can have our house. I said, Well, what's the arrangement? They said, Well somebody in Marysville owns it, and they only use it during the summertime 'cause they have a Girl Scout group. And it was about the size of this room also, but it was a cedar shake covered cabin--very rustic looking cabin--right on the Stillaguamish River, maybe fifty, sixty yards from the Stillaguamish River. And so they moved out, and we moved in. A few months later, the landlord came up one day and knocked on the door. And it wasn't the same people that he told could live in the house, right? So, he told us we could stay there until April. And then that they used the place from April until, I guess, August. And so we'd have to be gone for the summer. So when the summer was over, looking for a place again, we couldn't find one. And we just decided to look up those people in Marysville. So what I did is we went down to a friend of ours' house, and she cut my hair, and my hair was like, down to about here (elbow length). She cut my hair probably about like it is now. And then we went as a couple to this house in Marysville, where the landlord lived and pleaded our case. And, you know, We'd really like to move back in there for the winter. And he said, Well, the outhouse that you've been using--'Cause there was no bathroom. It was an outhouse. Everything was no utilities. We would get our water from a spring in a bucket, like gas cans that were for water. And then we'd pour that in a barrel that has spigot on it over our sink. So we'd have to fill that up about every four days or something like that. It was definitely a back-to-the-land thing. We had kerosene lamps for light, cook stove to cook stuff on. And they said, Well, you can move back in there and pay us 5 dollars a month and build an outhouse, because the outhouse we were using was on the next property over. So we agreed, built the outhouse, and lived there for the next winter. During that winter, we realized that Lauren was pregnant with Jamaica. And we were-- 01:21:17.420 --> 01:21:44.861 That was in 1970? 01:21:44.861 --> 01:21:45.916 That was in 1971. 01:21:45.916 --> 01:21:46.334 Okay. 01:21:46.334 --> 01:24:02.540 And my dad had died in 1970. We had come down to get some leather for the leather shop. Lauren and I had borrowed a friend's panel truck, and we drove down to her parents' house, and we were staying there, and my dad was having some health issues, and he went into the hospital for some tests. And then that morning, about three in the morning, Lauren's mom came in and woke us up and said, Your dad passed away. So we stuck around for about another week and then headed back up north to the leather shop. I was twenty-one, so I lost my dad early. He was sixty-one years old. So we were in this cabin and now we're gonna' have a baby, and one of the guys--the guy who was the manager at the Olympic Hotel and I had become friends, and he was kind of mechanically inclined. And so we found this old Chevy truck. It was a '53 Chevy pickup truck that was parked in an old field. It was like a dead truck out in the field. And bought it for 50 dollars and then he helped me basically rebuild the engine and do like a valve job and a few different things on it. He knew how to do all that stuff. So together we worked on that and got that truck running. And my mom told me, she said, Well look, my dad and my mom had bought some property three miles from here on the same road, just on the other side of 395. Like if you go across 395, the first driveway you hit goes up the hill to the top of the hill over there, three miles from here. And they had bought ten acres there to retire on in 1962, and they had developed it into an avocado orchard. And once my dad passed away whenever my mom would get anything from that property, she would just take it and stick it in a drawer 'cause she couldn't deal with it. And so a few years went by. So '71 rolls around, three years after my dad died, and we were gonna' have a baby. And she says, Well, I will put a mobile home or a trailer on the property if you'll come down and take care of it and help me get out debt with the property, you know, with the grove service. And so that sounded pretty good to us. So that's when we moved back to California. And I was still on probation. And now we're getting to how did I support myself, right? Is that coming up? 01:24:02.540 --> 01:24:19.404 So the move to North County and how, what you did for work during that time. 01:24:19.404 --> 01:28:44.479 So we actually had had Jamaica. We moved onto that property, and we built a shed that looks kind of like the shed I have out in back here. And we moved into that shed. She was like seven or eight months pregnant. And we had a friend that was maybe five years older than us that had her last baby that was natural childbirth--Lamaze method. And she'd had a midwife and a doctor that did home deliveries. And we decided that we wanted to do that. It was unheard of at the time. So we got a lot of criticism from people about that. But we hired this doctor. My brother actually helped me with the money for the doctor, and he agreed to deliver our baby. But he wouldn't come and deliver it in the shed we were living in 'cause we didn't have the trailer yet. And the baby was due in August. We'd been there for the summer. And so my brother was out of town. He lived in San Dimas. So he told us we could stay at his house and have the baby there. So we had the baby at my brother's house in San Dimas, but we were living on this property. And then within a month or so after that, the trailer was moved on--it was like a mobile home, and it was moved onto the property. And we set up household there. I got--my first job was with the grove service that had been taking care of my mom's property. Not to take care of my mom's property, though, but to just to work for them. And I got sent out with a crew of migrant workers to clear some weeds on a hill near Fallbrook. They dropped me off. We loaded in the back of a truck, and they drove us out to different places and dropped us here and there and everywhere. And they dropped me out on Reche Road next to this bank that had to have the weeds cleared with one of those weed sticks. So I did that for about a week and got a real appreciation for how hard the work is that migrant workers have to do. But then, luckily, I was looking for another job the whole time, and I got a job at an irrigation supply at Fallbrook called Southwest Irrigation. And I was like a counter boy, like basically when people come in to buy couplings and elbows and tees and pipe, I would wait on them at the counter. And then I also was, would deliver pipe out to the big jobs they were developing into orchards and kiwis and avocados and all that kind of stuff. At the same time, around that same time, we took a class from the agricultural extension on avocado farming 'cause we had ten acres of avocados that were just coming into production on my mom's property. My mom and my brother were pretty much in charge of all of that 'cause he had taken over my dad's business, and was just considered more legitimate than us. We were like counterculture, like not to be trusted or whatever. So I mean, not that they didn't trust us, but I think that they just--I don't think they thought they could depend on us, you know? So they kind of ran the show, and we needed resources, and I had friends I'd met around here that, we'd learned about avocado farming. And I had other friends that were farmers, and we were trying to do as right as we could by that orchard because it was just coming into production. And there were some things that needed to be done. They needed some equipment they didn't have. We just had our little car that we were driving around in. But we needed a truck, and we needed a tractor. But these are things that my mom and my brother were not interested in financing. And so after about three-and-a-half years there and after the birth of my second daughter, who was born on the property in a teepee, same doctor-- 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:56.796 And what is her name? 01:28:56.796 --> 01:31:31.194 Corrina. 01:31:31.194 --> 01:31:44.247 Corrina. 01:31:44.247 --> 01:33:43.333 Yeah. And so she was born on the property. And sometime shortly after that, I kind of made the plea again, like, look, we need--I think I had a tractor at that point. They'd got me a used tractor. But I said, We need a salary. I mean we have free rent, but we need, we're taking care of a ten acre orchard. We're selling the fruit for you, we're making sure that it's taken care of. And basically the people around here that I knew had told me, They should be paying you like a couple hundred bucks a month besides just giving you a place to live there. So I kind of--what's the word I'm trying to think of?--lobbied for a salary, and they weren't having it, you know? And so I was pretty frustrated with my mom and my brother at that point, and I kind of called their bluff. I said, Well look, if you guys are not willing to put into the property what it needs, then you should probably sell it because it's coming into production, and there's gonna' be a lot of stuff needed. And if you don't do what you need to do, it's just gonna' be a big loss. And so they decided to sell it. So that meant we had to find another place to live. So we had developed some friendships with some folks that we still are very close to. Well actually he's passed away, but, his wife, Lizzie, David and Lizzie, our friends, had a place up in the Sierras near Twain Harte, which is in the gold country off of Highway 49 on the Sonora Pass. And they had a thirty-acre apple orchard. They were also back-to-the-landers, right? They're a little older than us. And actually, they had been able to get the land up there where they went. And so we'd become friends with them, and so we decided, well, let's move up there near them, you know? 'Cause land is a lot cheaper than it is here. So we found a place up there to rent, to try to explore the area. And I was gonna' try to--I was really just trying to make, just starting to make some headway with my music here in California. There was a group in California called The Alternative Chorus. It was in Hollywood. It was called the Los Angeles Alternative Chorus (Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase).And it was run by a guy named Len Chandler and a guy named John Braheny. And they were both songwriters, working songwriters. And if you read Bob Dylan's book, Chronicles, which I didn't read 'til many years later, after I was no longer in touch with Len Chandler, I found out that Len Chandler was a mentor of Bob Dylan's when Bob Dylan moved to New York in the Greenwich Village scene. And he was this Black guy, who was a songwriter who rode a motorcycle and didn't take anything from anybody. He was a real outspoken progressive person. And Bob Dylan had the utmost respect for him, and he outlines it in his book, Chronicles. But anyways, Len Chandler was one of these two guys that ran this Alternative Chorus. And what they did is they, you could make an appointment with them as a songwriter and then you'd show up at this little place in Hollywood that they had behind a house, another little house behind a house, where they would do this Alternative Chorus thing. And they had a cassette recorder. And they would have you play like five or six songs just right there for them into their cassette recorder. And they'd probably do like, do this once or twice a month and have like four or five songwriters come in over a day or over two days. And then they would go through everything and pick out the top songs and contact those songwriters and say, Okay, we picked out two of your songs, and we want you to come and showcase at our showcase night at the Ash Grove on such and such a night. Well, every time I went there, they picked out two of my songs, and they were real champions for me. I'm emotional to talk about-- 01:33:43.333 --> 01:33:44.000 That's okay. Take your time. Yeah. 01:33:44.000 --> 01:58:25.524 Yeah. Because as an artist, you run up against the wall so many times. But these guys, they heard what I was doing, and they acknowledged it, and they showcased my music. It didn't get me that far., but the acknowledgement from two people that were in the business that would let you come in and showcase and make some connections. So I worked with those guys for probably three or four years. Over three or four years, they probably showcased me four or five times at different venues. And some of it led to somebody being interested in a song, a publisher being interested in a song, or something. So we had just--so right when that was happening, we moved up to Calaveras County, which was the county north of where our friends lived. And we were completely isolated up there. It was like, we didn't know anybody, and they were, our friends were fifty miles away. So it was kind of a trip to get there, and we weren't seeing them that often. I didn't have a job, so I found a place in Sonora, a bar that would hire me to play three nights a week at like 50 bucks a night. But that was like a thirty mile drive on windy roads, Highway 49. And the place was called the County Jail. I think I was actually off probation by then. I'd managed to get off probation by then. But it was kind of funny 'cause the place was called the County Jail. And so I would drive there three nights a week and play for two or three hours for 50 bucks. And that's what we were living on. The place we were renting was like a labor house, like a lumberjack labor house up in the woods. And we stayed there about six months, and it was just like nothing happening up there. And I'd just started to make some connections down here, and I just felt like, boy, what a mistake to come up here. Right around that time I wrote a song called Goldmine. And we had met--through a friend in Seattle when we lived there--we had met--Well, let's see how I explain this. We'd met these two older folks, I mean, four or five years older than us, a couple in Seattle that were kind of our grounding people there. And they had been friends with Jesse Colin Young from the Youngbloods, which was a--I don't know if you know who that was, but they were a big group in the sixties. He had that hit song, Get Together, was that big hit song for Jesse. And his brother-in-law, his wife's brother, was a really great piano player. The Youngbloods just broke up, or they were just about to break up, and he was starting another band called the Jesse Colin Young Band. And Scott Lawrence, his brother-in-law, was gonna' be the piano player. So they sent him up there 'cause he was also trying to deal with the draft. And he came up to Seattle to stay with these two older friends that we knew that were friends of Jesse's and Susie Young, to deal with the draft board in Seattle, because he had a letter from Jesse that basically said that Jesse was homosexual and that Scott was homosexual, and they had a relationship and that was gonna' get him outta' the draft. But they couldn't do it in San Francisco 'cause too many people knew who Jesse was. And they wouldn't fly in San Francisco, but in Seattle, nobody knew anybody. So they sent him up there to deal with it, to get out of the draft. And that's how we met him, 'cause he stayed there for about two or three weeks. And so when we came back down to Southern California, then the band, his band, was going. Jesse's band was going, and Scott was in the band. And they were playing in LA after we came back down here. And we kind of finagled our way backstage somehow. You know, we kept saying we knew Scott, and we were trying to get backstage. And all of a sudden, Scott walked by, we go, Hey, Scott. You know? So he brought us backstage, and we met Jesse and Susie, his sister, and so we had cultivated a relationship with them. So now we're in Wilseyville, up in Calaveras County, and I've just written this song, Goldmine. And Lauren writes a letter to Jesse Colin Young and asks him if I can come over to the Bay Area and record this song, Goldmine, in his studio, which, I was--cold feet to do that. But she said, I'm just gonna' write him. All they could say is no. Well, he said yes. So we went over there and recorded the song and then Alternative Showcase showcased that song. A couple different publishers held that song, but nobody ultimately picked it up. So we moved back down here to a little place in Oceanside. A rental place in Oceanside. And we were probably there for under a year. So I, we had a baby and a 3-year-old. Lauren decided to get her Montessori credential 'cause she'd been like a helper at the Montessori school. We still had a baby that was gonna' go to the Montessori school. So she started to get her Montessori training. And I started, was able to procure a lawnmower and an edger, a rake, and a shovel and a hoe. And I started to accumulate some gardening customers up in the LA area. The first one was my brother. And then he had, he knew somebody that needed a gardener. So that was the second client. And then Lauren's aunt lived up in that area. And so she hired me. So I had three gardening clients. So I would drive up on like a Tuesday, stay at my brother's house, next morning, do his gardening, go over to another place in town and do the gardening there. And then it would be about one. I would drive into Hollywood with a stack of reel-to-reel tapes of my songs and hit all the high rises, which are filled with publishers. I'd just go in and look at the directories and find out where all the publishers were. And then I would go to every publisher and drop off a tape. Like every week. And my tapes were like piling up at publishers 'cause nobody was listening to them. They were just getting dropped off there. So that didn't really--one guy actually decided that to hold the song, Goldmine. And they gave me like a letter of intent that they wanted to hold it and so not to show it to anybody else. And that was about three months or four months, and then they decided they weren't gonna' do it. So I have lots of those stories. You have to, it's like shots on goal, you know, you have to take shots on goal to score. So, let's see, from there--we hated that place at Oceanside. And we had our kids back in the school in Fallbrook, where they had been when we lived on my mom's property. And we found a place in Fallbrook to rent. It was an eight-acre avocado orchard with a house on it. And so we were able to parlay our way into being the managers of the orchard for the guy who owned the property in exchange for the rent of the house. So another similar kind of setup. So we lived there for four years. And during that time I started gigging. I actually, I had a job--okay, get back to my jobs again. So I had that job with the grove service. So when, after about two weeks of that, I got the job at the irrigation place. I worked there for about a year. And I left there because one of the guys that was a manager at the irrigation place heard about an opportunity and told me about it. He knew two carpenters, two local carpenters from Fallbrook, that were building a big house, just maybe six miles from here, up in the Olive Hill area between here and Fallbrook. It was a custom home they were building for the guy that owned El Molino Mills that used to make all the health food flour and all that stuff. And I can't think of his name right now. But anyways I got hired on as a carpenter's apprentice with those two guys. And they basically taught me basic carpentry and framing. It was really cool job. They were two older guys, like almost my grandfather's age, that had been carpenters around here for years and old school, you know. And I had to do all the really dirt work. But I learned a lot, that I could put into my personal toolkit. About building and construction and wood and hammers and saws and all that stuff. When that house was done, they didn't have another project, but they got me a job with a construction crew in Oceanside that was building a, it was like a, I think it was an office building. And I went to work with them as a framer for about a month. And I hated it. It was just like, 'cause it was nothing like working with these two old carpenters. These, they were all guys about my age or maybe a little older and just very construction worker kind of energy, and it just wasn't my cup of tea. And so I left there and I looked around for another job, and I got a job at the Fallbrook Enterprise, the newspaper. And I had a part-time job there as a pasting--pasting up the real estate and what do they call 'em? Like the want ads. I forget, there's another name for it. So I was doing like, maybe four pages in the newspaper every week. But it was before computers. So everything was like tape on a light board with an exacto knife. And then you would get, the letters would be generated by one computer that would just generate your copy. You'd put it through a waxer and cut it up and stick it to the grid board on a light table. You've probably seen that stuff, paste-up work like that. So I did that and that was really a, I'd done some of that stuff on my own as a kid. I was always into making posters, and I'd go to the stationary store and get the transfer type. And so I kind of had that already. And then working there, they had all the tools, all the different kind of tapes, and the exacto knife and the waxer. So I really enjoyed that job there, and while I was working there, a guy I had met in LA in auditioning to be in a band that I ended up not being in, had moved to Oceanside. And he had been at the same audition, and we'd all exchanged phone numbers. And he knew that I lived nearby. He was a bass player. So he contacted me. And we ended up forming a duo--me playing my songs and him playing bass and singing harmony. And we worked our way down to an open stage in Encinitas at a club called The Stingaree, which, which was owned by Jack Tempchin. I don't know if you know who he is, but he's the, he goes by Jack Tempchin, Eagles songwriter--Jack Tempchin. He wrote Peaceful Easy Feeling, and Already Gone. He wrote Slow Dancing for Johnny Rivers. He's written multiple hit songs. And he lives in Encinitas, just a regular guy, great songwriter. And I had gotten onto him when we first moved to this area, and we'd become friends. 'Cause he had an open stage that he ran at like a music store over there. It was called The Blue Ridge Music Store in Encinitas. It's not there anymore. So I would go play the open mic there that he ran one day a week, or maybe it was a couple times a month. And then he had some success 'cause the Eagles became really big and his songs were like, their hits. And so he was able to buy a nice house in Encinitas. And he bought a bar, and he thought, Well, I'm gonna' buy a bar and make it into a music club. So he made this club called The Stingaree. It was named after a song he'd written called The Stingaree and which was a song about a big party in San Diego that he'd gone to. And so they had an open stage there one night a week. Before the band would play, they would have an open stage. And so we went down there one night and played the open stage. And the band that was playing that night after us was Rosie Flores and the Screamers, Rosie and the Screamers. And I don't know, you probably know who Rosie Flores is, but she's actually being inducted into the San Diego Music Hall of Fame in September. She's my age, but, and she doesn't live here anymore. But she was, at that time, she was like really well known in the San Diego scene here. And she'd had an all-girl band. And now she had this band called The Screamers. And they were packing the place every time they played there. And so we came in one of the nights and played on the open stage, and she heard me play that song, Goldmine. And she came up to me after that. And she wanted to, she wanted that song, you know, she wanted to play it. So I gave her the song, taught her the song, and then we kind of hit it off. And we started playing together. And we ended up--my friend ended up going to Saudi Arabia to work for some oil company or something, the bass player guy. And so Rosie and I ended up being a duo 'cause her band had broken up. And so it was Rosie Flores and at that time, I was using a different name. I've had like three last names. My born last name, and then a name I took on sort of through the whole draft thing, and then my name now, which has been my name for many, many years, which is a Spanish translation of my middle name. So anyways, the two of us had this duo, and we were playing five nights a week, plus I had the job at the newspaper. So I was making okay money, enough to keep us in groceries and pay our rent. Well, we didn't really have any rent, but pay our expenses, our utilities, and all that kind of stuff. And it was all going along pretty good. And then Rosie decided she was gonna' move to LA because San Diego--there was just like, it's like being a big fish in a small bowl. You couldn't really do anything past what we were doing. We were very popular. We were playing in two different clubs four or five nights a week. But she was the draw. I was the songwriter guy, and she was the singer, so she was singing some of my songs. I was singing some of my songs. And then we were doing a bunch of covers that she was singing, and I was singing harmony. So she decided she was gonna' move to LA, and that kind of left me on my own again. So I didn't have a sound system. We were using her sound system. So at that point, a friend of mine from school named Tad Williams had come into some money. His dad had died and had left him and his brother some money, and he told me that he wanted to be my sponsor. So he was like my first patron, and he bought me a sound system. And he basically--I still had the part-time job at the newspaper--but he made sure that our bills were paid for the next couple years. He'd come out and check on us and see how we were doing. And if we were a little short, he'd give me a thousand dollars, to last me in the next couple months. And that got us through, so I could continue to play music. So I was hauling my sound system to a club over in Cardiff three or four nights a week. And it was just basically playing in a bar for four hours a night. Pretty rough gig. So I did that. Then he got killed in a plane crash. And so that was over. That was about the time that--there was a paper in Oceanside called the Blade Tribune at that time. And it was--I forget--it was owned by a company that owned a bunch of newspapers. And the guy who owned the newspapers was the father of this guy, who became a fan of Rosie and myself. He would come to a lot of our shows. So when she left town, he continued to support me, coming to the shows and stuff like that. And he was the music editor at the Blade Tribune. This is a little bit outta' chronology, but this is about 1976-77 is when, she probably left town in '77. And so I was doing these solo gigs at a few different clubs here and there. And just trying to kinda' keep my head above water. And Rick Danko, the band, you know the band? They had just done that movie, The Last Waltz, and the band had broken up, that was like the end of the band. And then Rick Danko, the bass player from the band, started a band of his own, just called the Rick Danko Band. And this guy, who was the Blade Tribune editor, called me up one day and said, Hey, Rick Danko is gonna' be playing at the La Paloma Theater. He is doing two shows on this one night in like an early show and a late show, and they don't have an opening act. Here's the promoter's name. You should go over there and talk to 'em. So I went over there, and I got the gig. So that was my first opening for a national touring act. I opened two shows for Rick Danko at the La Poloma Theater. And Rick Danko and his brother, Terry, came out during my set for both shows, up in the balcony and listened to my set and really liked my songs. And so Rick and I became friends. And he had me open a couple more shows for him when he was in California. 'Cause he would travel all over the place, and he lived in Malibu at the time. So I kind of became a sometime opening act for Rick Danko, who would be traveling with all kinds of people. One of the times in his band was Paul Butterfield--was in his band, or different really high-visibility players that he would pick up along the way and they--so I got to meet a lot of people through Rick. Like I met Paul Butterfield. I actually went to Rick Danko's birthday party, his 40th birthday party, in Malibu. And I met Richard Manuel and his wife from the band and Garth Hudson from the band. They were both at his party. And then I met Joe Cocker through him. I met Bobby Norwood through him. I mean, just a number of people that he would be interacting with me, would just introduce me as his friend and songwriter friend of his. And because I opened that show for him, I got the idea like, Wow, there's all these national shows coming into town. There's like three different promoters promoting in different venues. And so those became my targets. Instead of playing in bars for four hours with cigarette smoke and nobody listening, I started--every time I'd hear about a concert, I'd just keep my eyes on the ads and as soon as someone would be announced, I'd go hit up the promoter. I had a review from the Rick Danko show that was written by my friend, where I had a really good mention, and I parlayed that to a show with Jesse Colin Young when he came to town, because I knew him already. And then that--I ended up getting a show with John Lee Hooker from that, Country Joe and the Fish from that, Emmylou Harris. I mean, the list is like really long, you know? And I did that for the next maybe few years. At one point I did have another job after the Jazzercise job (Joel worked as the audio person on video tapes of original Jazzercise classes created by Judi Missett.), with Community Ed (education). A friend of ours, was working in the Community Ed system, and she said, I think that you could teach on a limited credential--it's like a lifetime limited credential based on experience--in the Community Ed department for senior citizens that are in like rest homes and convalescent hospitals. And so for about a year, I sang songs and played movies that I would rent at the library for senior citizens in rest homes. I would interface with the activities directors at these various homes. And through the Community Ed system, I would go and do a two-hour class for their activities of these homes. It was one of the hardest jobs I ever had. But it served me really well because it was a really good hourly rate. And I could do it like two days, three days a week without having to spend all my time at work while I was trying to do music and art. 01:58:25.524 --> 01:58:28.534 So the classes were music you were teaching? 01:58:28.534 --> 02:05:50.564 Well, they wanted--initially she wanted me to do like an exercise class, just a stretching class with these older folks that are like my age now. But I didn't have any experience in that. So I said, what I could do is I could--I found out that there were a lot of films available, 16-millimeter films back then, through the library system that I could check out. And most of the centers had projectors. So I would go in, I would show them a half-an-hour film on just an interesting subject. I mean, it might be Will Rogers' California Ranch or it might be a documentary about an old guy that lives in Oregon that builds log cabins. I mean, just anything interesting I could find. And then the rest of the class would be sing-alongs. I'd performed some songs and do some sing-alongs. And some of those songs were Woody Guthrie songs. So I was pulling that back into my repertoire, Also, a good place to end, too, is that at one point, because I knew a lot of Woody Guthrie songs, at one point in my career when my kids were young, I decided to look into Woody Guthrie with more depth, because I realized how many people he had influenced and particularly Bob Dylan. And I thought, Well, rather than just listen to Bob Dylan, I want to go back a step and see what it was he found when he was influenced by Woody Guthrie. And so I kind of took a journey to learn more about Woody Guthrie. Even though I had played some of his songs from the time I was a teenager, I just decided to dig in deeper. And the first thing I found out was that there wasn't much Woody Guthrie around. Like, his records were all out of print. You know, you'd be, if you could find a copy of a Bound for Glory, his bestselling novel, you were lucky 'cause those were out of print. But I did manage to find a copy, and I found a store up in Santa Monica that sold a lot of children's records that had the Songs to Grow On that were written by Woody and his wife for their kids. And so my kids were brought up on those songs in the cassette player in the car. And those were some of the first songs I learned. I also found a copy of a tape with Woody and Cisco Houston singing cowboy songs. So I started to incorporate some of the songs into my own set. And when I got this job with Community Ed, I developed that up further. So I made lyric sheets so I could really learn these songs, and the Woody Guthrie songs were the ones that really stuck out as the best songs to me. And so at one point, I thought, Well, I could actually put together a one-man show about Woody Guthrie, and maybe I could even get an endorsement or be sanctioned by the Woody Guthrie, Woody Guthrie's management, which he still had a manager even though he was dead--this guy, Harold Leventhal, I knew from the books that I had found--a couple of books--that he was the guy, who was kind of in charge of Woody Guthrie's estate at that point. And so I looked up his office. I found a number for his office in New York City, and I called his office, and Harold Leventhal answered the phone, And I explained to him that I was a songwriter in California and that I had learned a number of these Woody Guthrie songs and that I had been listening to the Library of Congress tapes, which were recorded by Alan Lomax. It's about four hours of Woody, similar to what we're doing here. Only Woody would tell his story and then play a song that he'd written that kind of went with it. And those tapes are in the Library of Congress, and I--that you can get them on cassette tapes. So I've been listening to those, the interviews and the songs, and I thought, Well, I could put together a real show. So I called Harold Leventhal and kind of broached the idea with him, and he completely just shut me down. He said, No, you can't do that. You can't even play any Woody Guthrie songs, he says, because, all those songs are protected, and they're being held for a production that we're doing about Woody Guthrie, and you cannot use them under any circumstances. Goodbye. Bang, you know. So I was like, Wow, you know, I was really like, taken aback. So I thought, Well, screw that, I'm gonna' play these songs anyways. So I played them in, for my classes, I didn't develop up the show. I didn't go there. But I played these songs in my classes and I honed up these Woody Guthrie songs, so they were sounding really good. Ironically--and this would be a good stop point--many years later, when I was playing at the Woody Guthrie Festivals on a regular basis, when Nora Guthrie gave me the first Woody Guthrie song to write music to, it was a song called Dance a Little Longer. And we recorded it, and I was on my way home from the Woody Guthrie Festival in Oklahoma. I don't know which year it was, but it was the year after I had, it was probably around 2000 (2003). Yeah, 'cause that's when that first record came out that had that on it. So I was on my way home, and my cell phone rings, and it's a New York City number. But I decided to answer, and I answered it, and it was Harold Leventhal calling me up. Now he doesn't know I was the guy, who called him many years earlier, but now I'm the guy who finished this Woody Guthrie song, and he really liked it, So he called me up to tell me how much he liked it and to thank me profusely for helping to carry on Woody Guthrie's legacy. So the irony of that really hit me. And, of course, I never told him about the earlier connection. But that sort of closed the endorsement, finished the endorsement from Woody Guthrie Archives and Woody Guthrie Publications and that kind of thing. So where we're leaving off is I've just worked at, with the Community Ed, and I tried to do the Woody Guthrie thing. Harold shut me down. And now I'm about to get a job at the San Diego Wild Animal Park. 02:05:50.564 --> 02:05:56.157 Okay. Thank you so much. As you have alluded to, this is session one-- 02:05:56.157 --> 02:05:57.052 Yes. 02:05:57.052 --> 02:06:01.814 --of Joel's oral history, and we'll be back together for the next interview. 02:06:01.814 --> 02:06:04.314 I look forward to it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-086 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Counterculture -- United States Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Covina (Calif.) West Covina (Calif.) Portland (Oregon) Seattle (Wash.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Art and artists Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bfc2d82b5e9047e6b1800bd05678e389.pdf bd0290ddc910011850030dbfa284a3ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, August 20, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20_transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Covina (Calif.) West Covina (Calif.) Portland (Oregon) Seattle (Wash.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Counterculture -- United States Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Schaffman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. SC027-084 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Karen Schaffman Jennifer Fabbi moving image SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Experience with dance as a child and adolescent Schaffman reflects on being a lifelong dancer starting with her initial experience with dance as a child and her mother’s role in exposing her to dance. lifelong dancer ; mother ; Connecticut Ballet ; ballet ; jazz ; Hartford Conservatory 0 382 Formal education Schaffman details her formal undergraduate and graduate education in dance including a degree at the European Dance Development Center in Holland and a PhD in Dance History and Theory at University of California, Riverside. University of Massachusetts ; women's studies ; feminism ; gap year ; San Francisco ; improvisation ; Holland ; Germany ; California ; University of California, Riverside ; Feldenkrais Method ; Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais 0 874 Foundational theory and practice for Schaffman’s work Schaffman describes theories and practices that underpin her work including a somatic approach to dance, perceptual improvisation, dance dialects, and contact improvisation. somatics ; perceptual improvisation ; dance dialects ; contact improvisation ; performance and cultural theory 0 1802 Service to the community and profession Schaffman discusses her teaching, scholarship, and service and how she was able to differentiate her service from teaching and scholarship during the retention, tenure, and promotion process. teaching ; scholarship ; creative activity ; service ; David Avalos ; Susan Foster ; Lower Left ; Bonnie Biggs ; Mtfti Imara ; California Center for the Arts ; Andrea Liss ; Kristine Diekman ; Meryl Goldberg ; Center ARTES ; Marilyn Huerta ; Arts and Lectures ; curriculum 0 2233 International work Schaffman speaks to her work in and travels to different countries and the influence this has had on her life and career. global citizen ; intercultural exchange ; Europe ; Mexico ; Pachuca ; Day of the Dead ; Holland 0 2238 Plans in retirement Schaffman shares her plans for retirement including slowing down, participating in a training institute in Vienna, and coming back to teaching at CSUSM as part of the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Donna Ray ; Feldenkrais ; training institute ; Vienna ; Pilates 0 2456 Schaffman’s journey to CSUSM and evolution of the campus and curriculum Schaffman reflects on the evolution of CSUSM, especially regarding the growth of the dance curriculum and program, faculty, and guest artists. curriculum ; University Curriculum Committee ; dance minor ; Choreographies of Resistance ; Michael McDuffie ; Ranjeeta Basu ; Cheri Hill ; breadth ; active learning ; social justice ; diversity ; Arts and Lectures ; Dancing through Prison Walls ; Visual and Performing Arts ; space ; theater ; Anya Cloud 0 4019 Working during the Covid pandemic Schaffman talks about her work during the Covid pandemic and the rise of Black Lives Matter and murder of George Floyd. (keywords: pandemic, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, online performances, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Mtfti Imara, T. Lang, Melicia Taylor, Black artists, Zoom, Skyla Miles, Minnie Atkins, sabbatical, Think Gravity Dance Tank, symposium, Anya Cloud, Ishmael Houston-Jones, contact improvisation, Contact Dance International Film Festival, Makisig Akin) pandemic ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; online performances ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; Mtfti Imara ; T. Lang ; Melicia Taylor ; Black artists ; Zoom ; Skyla Miles ; Minnie Atkins ; sabbatical ; Think Gravity Dance Tank ; symposium ; Anya Cloud ; Ishmael Houston-Jones ; contact improvisation ; Contact Dance International Film Festival ; Makisig Akin 0 4486 Schaffman’s most impactful work Schaffman reflects on what she considers to be her most impactful work. She believes the creation of the Dance program at CSUSM is the most important accomplishment of her career. Debra Hay ; Lower Left ; dance program ; Summer Arts ; Think Gravity 0 5169 Additional projects and collaborations Schaffman adds a few more collaborative projects that she wants to give her colleagues and the University credit for. United and Severed ; Kristine Diekman ; traumatic injury ; PTSD ; palliative care ; Mindfulness Center ; Elizabeth Hospice Center 0 Oral history Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:29.614 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Dr. Karen Schaffman for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is June 5th, and it is 2:10 p.m. This interview is taking place at Karen's office on the CSU San Marcos campus, where we are guests on traditional unceded Luiseño/Payómkawichum land. Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:29.614 --> 00:00:31.545 Thank you. 00:00:31.545 --> 00:00:41.375 So to start off, can you tell me about your experience with dance as a child and adolescent and where you got your passion for dance? 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:47.495 Great, thank you. And first, I'd like to begin by also thanking you so much for the opportunity to share my story, and it's really truly an honor in this moment of my life to have this interview. 00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.638 Absolutely. 00:00:49.638 --> 00:00:54.228 Thank you so much. 00:00:54.228 --> 00:00:56.064 You're welcome. 00:00:56.064 --> 00:01:30.356 My childhood story began with dance. So I've been dancing--I'm a lifelong dancer. And I began dancing as a kid. And very young. My mom, there was, we lived on the end of a street, and there was a summer creative dance program. I must have been two or three. I don't have the exact date from my mom. And that's where I fell in love with dance. I have some little picture somewhere stored away with me like in some kind of end of something performance. But it was on the playground, and it was outdoors,and that's where my dance career began. Dance for me--should I just ramble? Is that good? 00:01:30.356 --> 00:01:34.752 Yeah. 00:01:34.752 --> 00:05:45.834 Dance for me was always a sense of a place for me to belong and I'll say survive. I was very supported to go to dance through my whole childhood, but we were a middle class family, and so I relied on scholarships, I usually got them. I was seriously into dance. So I danced until I was probably in seventh grade, No, maybe sixth grade, like twice a week. And then I got into a dance company, and I had a child's part in the Connecticut Ballet, regional Ballet Company. So very early on was I in a very kind of intergenerational environment, and you'll hear through this interview that that's really important to my work and maturing as a still as a performing artist. So it was really, uh, that was like a turning point for me to be in that company. But it was also a time in my life where I had been studying ballet where--my body started to change and I knew that, and then peer pressure and things like high school and things like that. So I changed to modern dance and jazz. So at the time, jazz dance was really predominant. So that's my, just my, like, early days. But I think I'm really not getting to the heart of it with my mom, because my mom really shuttled me back and forth. She was a nurse and, uh, full time, so I had a lot of chores at home to do and things like that. But I always knew that after the chores, my mother was coming home from work and basically going back to the same neighborhood. And so, yeah, it was a really important time for me. My brothers were very into sports and at the time we didn't have Title IX, and I was not encouraged to do sports. I think I probably would've been a good athlete, actually, but I wasn't really invited or included. So dance was really a natural place for me to be physical. But I loved going to dance class. I loved--in the ballet--I was in a ballet conservatory. It was called the Hartford Conservatory. Again, I was one of the young ones there. And there was a live pianist. His name was Julius. And I just remember just loving going there. And I had two older brothers, and it was really, it wasn't a great home environment. My brothers were pretty rough on me to put it lightly. So going to dance was always a place for me to just go and be. And I had really, really good training. I have to be--I'm so grateful that I landed in those places because my teachers were very supportive, but they were also slow with me. They were like--I was called Little K--Little K, we're not putting you on point shoes yet because your ankles aren't strong enough. So I actually had really, really, really good training. So I'm very--I'm very, very grateful for that. My mom, later in life, showed me a letter that they were encouraging me to go to a performing arts high school, and my mother didn't want me to go. And it was after I got my PhD and a career in dance that she said, You know, I need to--it was like she needed to make amends. So she showed me the letter from the Hartford Conservatory encouraging my mother to put me in a professional program, but she didn't. So, but that's interesting. So I don't know where my career would've went at that time. But I stayed in. So, my time with dance was--but I was very, very shy, I have to say. So I grew into not being shy as I got older, but as a kid I was a very shy, and so people asked me to dance in front of them. I'd always be like, no, I--it's like I didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who would be like, get up on the table or get up in front of grandma and grandpa and show them what you do. So I was very, very shy as a kid. So dance was a place where I-- and performance was a place for me to go. Yeah. I could go on and on about that, but. 00:05:45.834 --> 00:06:22.134 Well, maybe it'll come up in some questions. Okay. So you have substantial formal education. You earned a BA in Dance and Literature at UMass Amherst, and an equivalent degree in experimental dance at the European Dance Development Center in the Netherlands, and also your PhD in Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. And please fill in anything that I missed. How did your formal education impact who you are as a professional? 00:06:22.134 --> 00:14:14.595 So I only applied to three schools for undergraduate, and it was not a given, but pretty much where I grew up in a very middle class family that I would go to college. I didn't get into Cornell. That was my first choice. I didn't know how I was gonna afford that anyway. And then University of Connecticut was my backup, but they didn't have a dance program, so I didn't really want to go there, but my parents encouraged me. And at the time, there was this five-hour radius of driving, like, it was very strict where we were gonna apply back then. And I was on my own, actually, my grandmother was very ill, and my grandparents had moved from Brooklyn to be next to my mom. So I got into a dance major program at University of Massachusetts, and it's a very good program. They had something called the Five College Dance Program, which is part of a consortium with Smith College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke, and Amherst. So I got to pay, it was still outta state, Massachusetts, but got to take advantage of the five college dance program. But even finishing my first year, I was like, something's wrong here. I didn't really like the dance program. It was very competitive. And even though I didn't have any issues with what they thought would maybe be too much weight in the wrong places or anything, they were very critical of other dancers. And I knew right at that age that I wasn't really jiving with that program. Though I was even teaching my first year 'cause I was very advanced. So they gave me the work study teaching, like for the university. So I kind of gave up that opportunity, and I dropped out of the dance program, and I did what was called a bachelor's degree with an independent concentration. So I did dance and literature. So I always continued dancing, but I took all of my dance classes in the five college area. So I kind of got this semi Ivy League or alternative school 'cause Hampshire is a very alternative education. And then I took other classes at UMass, but UMass just opened my eyes up to many things. I did musical theater there and, but my dance and literature was really, really important because I did a lot of, what we called then, well, was--it was UMass had one of the first women's studies programs. So I did a lot of women's literature and I did, I learned about feminism, I was like, this was like my awakening. Yeah. I took a lot of what we call then third-world women's writing and literature courses. So I'm not from the third world, but we don't even use that phrasing anymore. But UMass was in the forefront of politics in the body at the time. So, it's interesting how that became, came back and around. So I had a great education there. I did take what we call now a gap year at the time 'cause I needed to get out into the world. And then I went, I lived in San Francisco for a while and then I knew I wanted to live overseas or go overseas, but I didn't wanna be a tourist. So I got in--there was no internet or anything then. So I was studying in San Francisco with Joe Good in a summer workshop. And this woman who's now well known in New York, Sarah (now I show my absent mind). Sarah Mickelson said, you should go here. She was British. and so there was a school in Holland, and they take two guests a year, and they accepted me with like my CV and a cover letter and a letter of recommendation. And I had no money. My parents were not supporting me at all in this phase of my life. I was waitressing in San Francisco and doing dictation. I worked on the first little Mac box. And I got a loan--I think I'll share this--from the Hebrew Free Loan Association. They gave me $2,000 up front, but I had to pay, start paying back $50 a month. And off I went to Europe, and I paid my tuition. And so I had like, I don't know, I had only like $500 left in my pocket, and I went to the school in Holland. And that basically just changed my life. So it was very alternative. And it was very much based in improvisation, but many of the teachers were coming from either England or the United States, from New York. So it was kind of the New York, the downtown scene, all of the people who were working with somatics in the body. So really doing deep research in terms of inner sensation and anatomical release it was called. So it was a very particular kind of dancing. And I was just like, I would just, I was just mind blown. I would stand there in the studio and somebody would do a performance where they would just take ten minutes to raise their arms. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life. I was like, okay, what is this? And then the school split. They opened a new school in the town called Arnhem, and I went to Arnhem, and I spent two years there. And I had an amazing experience there with many amazing artists that I'm still, some of them I'm still in touch with. And I've curated, actually, here at the school and in summer arts. And so I went to there, changed my life. And then I got a job teaching in Germany before Germany had master's degrees in dance. And I worked in a conservatory environment there in a clown and dance school, So I taught at a clown and dance school for three years. And that was a great experience. But at the time I was involved with someone. I had to make a decision. So I decided to move to California. And, I was, What am I gonna' do here? And that's a longer story, but there was a brand-new program that I was thinking about getting a master's, but because I became so open to this other way of dancing, there was really no master's programs at the time that I was interested in, except maybe in New York. And I was like, Well, I live in California now. But there was a brand-new program at UC Riverside. It was the third year, and it was one of the very, among the very first top three universities that gave a PhD in dance. And so when I saw the poster in the back of one of these magazines called Contact Quarterly is how I found out about it, I was like, Oh, wow. So I went and I sat in on a few seminars and I was like, I wanna go there. So I applied. And so then I went to UC, Riverside. And it's really a groundbreaking program in terms of dance studies, the field of dance studies, which is different than just getting a degree in dance. Yeah. Dance studies is really about the political, social, and cultural impact and of the body and dance in the world. So that's what I did. And then I have one more education that I did that's very extensive called the Feldenkrais Method. So thank you to this university who partially funded that education. Yes. It's a four-year program, and it's based on the somatic educational method. And it's based on research of someone named Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, and he was part of the human development generation. Yeah. He was also born the same year as my grandfather in the Ukraine, which was interesting. But he had a knee injury. He was one of the first white people, men, white men, to learn judo. And he learned judo, and he brought a lot of Eastern philosophy into this body modality. So it's not a dance training, it's really about finding ease in your own movement. So I still do that now. I bring that into all I do. And so I have, those are my key big degrees. 00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:34.754 So following up on that your focus for your career for the last several decades has been on somatics, perceptual improvisation, contact improvisation, and performance and cultural theory. Can you tell me a little bit more about these areas of focus? 00:14:34.754 --> 00:18:27.000 Yes. So you had somatic, perceptual improvisation, cultural theory, and contact improvisation? Yeah. So a somatic approach to dance, or the body, has to do with more about feeling than how it looks. It's really about inner sensation and really getting in touch with oneself on a very cellular level, if I can speak that way. It's more about embodied and lived experience and of course, that has cultural and impact culturally and through people's cultural history and ancestry. But it--and it really includes this very sensorial based way of dancing and through the world. So it's not about how it looks like, for example, like ballet where you have to look a certain way or something, but really about an inner sensorial world that brings forward the dance or the healing or whatever. So it's, it's an ancient way of being with oneself before we had technologies and things like that. So that's the somatic piece. Is that clear kind of? It is? And then perceptual improvisation really has to do with, again, responding to the conditions. So it's a little bit more related to the visual art world. And one of my areas that I researched, well, probably since I'm a kid, but is visual art. And I also studied--I took Harvard summer school one summer way, way back when, and I did video when it was a three-quarter inch and you sit down (unintelligible). So I did some--I've studied some videos. So I'm, it's really about--how do I explain perception improvisation on an interview like this? Let's see. Something about how do we, how do we perceive the world? So it's, it really does relate a lot to visual arts in terms of perspective and visual field and responding, but could be your auditory field as well. So it's related to somatics in that way. It also is really, really related to Eastern thought, which is about inner perception and meditation and things like that. So I've cultivated a more contemplative way of approaching dance as well. Yeah. It comes from, I wouldn't say I am a Buddhist or anything like that, but I've studied Eastern philosophy. I've done a little bit of martial arts, just a little bit. So I've kind of come at it with that. And then cultural theory is dance and cultural studies. Dance studies is really a blend of dance and the field of cultural studies. So we're really looking about diversity in dance, and we're considering not just a European perspective of dance, which becomes very stereotypical. And so it's changed so much then. But it's really the dance studies field really emerged out of celebrating and analyzing, honoring the histories and practices of diverse cultures across the world. I mean, there's so many dance dialects that around the world. So dance studies really opened my eyes up to how big the world of dance is and how much of an impact it has politically and socially on our identity and things like that. So everything we learn about dance can be applied to (unintelligible). Dance studies can be applied to any field, really, in my opinion, because it has so much to do with the politics of the body. Yeah. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 That's really interesting. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:35.444 Yeah. Yeah. And I bring that here to Cal State. 00:18:35.444 --> 00:18:43.535 So how have your areas of focus benefited your students? Many students over the years? 00:18:43.535 --> 00:23:12.493 Well, and I did talk about contact, so I'll bring that back 'cause that's what my area of research was about. I think I should say something about contact now. Is that okay? So my PhD was based on contact improvisation, which is, brings together all of those other practices--somatics, perceptual improvisation, dance technique, and then cultural studies. So I was looking at something that emerged from the fifties and sixties, which was a huge art movement in New York and really influenced a lot of people. And it was based on gravity and momentum and touch. So contact improvisation. My dissertation was really also a lot about touch and how contact improvisation, which is a touch-based dance form. It's like what happens when two bodies move together? And with gravity and momentum? Now we do this, people do this, not me, in tango, in salsa, and all sorts of dance traditions around the world. But contact has a particular aesthetic. And so it might look like something, but it's so much based in sensorial awareness. So this was--has been--a big part of my life is contact improvisation. And so--but contact improvisation sometimes universalizes this idea of what the body is. So my dissertation also took that apart and down a bit that said, No, this is very particular as a particular way of moving. It's not universal. Not everybody does it, you know, things like that. So anyway, it's a longer discussion, but I bring all of that into San Marcos when I--CSUSM--when I came here there was no program. And so it was clear to me that I was starting in a very challenging place but also really exciting place. One of the reasons I took the job here--I got an offer at a school that was already established as well. Because dance, dance for here, the byline here is that dance is for everybody and every body. And that this would be an inclusive environment and that this would be an environment that welcomes all students. So it would not be conservatory driven or even wanting to go in that direction. Even though we would be working on our technique, on our awareness--we would use words like awareness rather than virtuosity. You know, virtuosity is great, but would be more about awareness. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I think I was highly successful at that. And that is actually happening. So I think that's the biggest thing. But the students always are like, it's really different here. When people come to visit or high schools come always like, oh, it's really different here because it's really about community and there's a lot of support. We don't just dance. We talk about where we're at. We take a weather report. What's going on? One word, you know, everybody share a word. How do you feel today? We talk about access needs. We don't make assumptions in the class that everybody's gonna do everything. So there's a lot of that. So it's really with what my friend, Anya Cloud, collaborator, brought the phras--she was a lecturer here for nine years--"Dancing with the body you have." So yeah, no assumptions. No assumptions. Yeah. And also adaptability. access needs, cultural backgrounds, what's going on in the world. We don't ignore, we don't go, you may get a great escape in a dance class, but dance studies is not about this dream. that dance helps me escape the world. It's basically the opposite. It's really about grounding in the reality and what am I dealing with and what are the conditions right here and now? So I've cultivated those kinds of values here. And then the other big thing is because I went to Riverside, early on I brought in that students need to relate whatever we're learning in the class. almost every, and almost--not all classes, but many classes are like--how do you relate this to your major or something you care about in the world? Because dance is always in dialogue. We're always in relationship to the world. 00:23:12.493 --> 00:23:14.733 That's really, it sounds very unique. 00:23:14.733 --> 00:23:28.015 Yes, it is. (laughter) It's a unique program that that emerged. And, um, yeah, see where it goes, too, so I'm hopeful. 00:23:28.015 --> 00:23:35.375 So what has scholarship and creative activity looked like in your career as a professor of dance? 00:23:35.375 --> 00:24:20.000 Um, in my career? Or just, what was, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. I was looking at my note up before that. I just said at the end, I wrote myself a little note about my area of focus. "It's fun and entertaining, but it's also much more than that." I talk to students. First of all, it's more than just the steps. We're not gonna just learn phrases in here and look in the mirror. I wanna add that students freak out 'cause in many classes we're like, let's close the curtains. Like, we don't always have to--and that's the somatic aspect, okay, is can you feel this movement? Why are you staring at yourself in the mirror? The mirrors can be very helpful, but, so I just wanted to sort of add that. 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.743 So the, the question, the question was, as a professor of dance, what does scholarship and creative activity look like to you? 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:36.664 Oh. 00:24:36.664 --> 00:24:47.233 And, and one, so in your CV, you also give example, a lot of examples of curated performance processes.And so are those things related? 00:24:47.233 --> 00:29:24.000 They are, for me, but in terms of teaching, I think it relates again to students who find--for our students here--is to find the connection of what dance does for the world and how it is universal. And if it's not, it's because it's being policed, right? By a government that won't allow dance. And like, where are we going now? So the scholarship in dance is about the awareness of what the body can do, like in music or visual art. You know, like we have art history, but we only have dance historians that take it really seriously. And there's tons of books now about dance. But in terms of curation, that's like a separate thing. Yeah. So my own scholarship has been that I've done a lot around--writing about contact improvisation and presenting on that. But I often combine my creative projects with political and historical research. So, for example, a project that was before--that I didn't curate, that I was invited on was like a European project based on a fictional choreographer named Veronika Blumstein. So I ended up spending like two years on that. And then she comes back every now and then, came back during COVID. I was like, okay. Somebody invited me 'cause they were interested in my work with Veronica. And so these Polish and German artists and one person from Slovenia came together in a research project. And they didn't know what to do. And for some reason, at the time, the zeitgeist at the time was a really, like a lot around healing in terms of World War II and the European Holocaust and genocide there. And so, and then the Polish people were so impacted by the war in another way. So this opened up a huge pot of research for me by looking into Veronika Blumstein. And I lived in Europe, but I had never gone into some of my own personal roots. And so I did a lot of ancestral work at the time. And then through that project many things came up because they wrote a fictional--they wrote about a fictional character who happened to be a Jewish woman who escaped and went to New York and studied with all these people that were like part of my own dance lineage. So it became a lineage project. So in that way, I was like weaving together all of these different things. Now, like curation is kind of, I'm, it happens globally, but I know it because I've spent so much time in Europe, like this kind of careful 'cause curation--because they have different funding sources. So in the US, our, the field of dance curation has grown so much and it's--there's so many amazing people doing great projects. But my work in curation, well, I just recently did this Think Gravity Project, which we'll talk about. But I did a big project called the Live Legacy Project. And so I was invited by a former classmate of mine from the school I went to in Holland Center for New Dance Development, which became European Dance Development Center. And we did a whole cultural history on how dance migrated from US and Ukraine, uh, Ukraine--US and the UK through the Dutch school into Germany. So she was living in Germany and the German government gave a huge sum of money to this curation. So we had a symposium that resulted in a film, but we brought together many dance elders and then the younger generation. So it was a big intergenerational project. So we had workshops. So we did everything at the symposium. It wasn't a talking symposium. We had the workshops, intensives alongside the talks, alongside the films. But everybody went to everything. So it wasn't like, I will choose at a conference, it would be like a symposium for a hundred people. And then they came to everything. It was very, very well documented. They all experienced everything together. Yeah. So it's like educational and creative all at once and people got to share their work. Okay. So in that way, like the curation is a way to bring about a living archive. So I'm interested in curation that's very much alive. Does that make sense? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.222 It does. 00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:35.275 Okay. There's a lot of topics we're we're hitting now, so I hope they're making sense. 00:29:35.275 --> 00:29:47.000 They are. So, you talk, have talked a lot about, you know, previous to this interview about your involvement with Arts and Lectures on campus. 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.809 Yes. 00:29:48.809 --> 00:30:02.505 And so, like a more broad question is what does campus and community service look like in your career over the years? But I know that Arts and Lectures, you know, we talked about as being a substantial-- 00:30:02.505 --> 00:33:42.000 Yes. Well, before I get into Arts and Lectures, what's interesting is I'm flashing now to David Avalos, who was a mentor for me. And, he really helped me when I arrived here, especially with my file, because I, like my service and my scholarship and my teaching all intertwined. And the committees at first didn't really get that. So he had me write this intro and it was really helpful. And so I also share that forward with other people I'm on committees with because it's known now. But even twenty years ago when I was a PhD student, we didn't do a practical PhD. Now there's many practicing dance PhDs. And at the time, one of the most famous godmothers of dance studies, my mentor, Susan Foster, said, Karen, you need to put dancing aside for a while. Get reading, get writing. And I didn't really do that at the time. I still was, I had a very active performing career, and I was curating with a group called Lower Left in San Diego. So it's just like doing way too much. But that's what I did for a large, most of my life. So it's that intertwining of these things that I think is really important. That my service here was always intertwined with my own work in the classroom. Because also, I was performing with students or creating performances with students both at the, in the early years. And it was like, that was my service. I didn't get course release or it wasn't counted as a class, even though I was teaching a class or a project that added another ten hours a week for six to eight weeks. So that's what we do, though. We dance. You gotta make the work. It doesn't fit into a four hour a week class. So my service really got intertwined entwined with dancing. But then I got involved right away because I had been curating in Europe. I had been cur--you know, when I was teaching at the clown school was my first curating. And then I, when I arrived here, I got involved with Bonnie Biggs from the Library, who was running Arts and Lectures, and she invited Mtfiti Imara, Dr. Imara, to do a performance. So that was another big project. He did a--he created a song that was called Power to the People. And I had a group of dancers. It was all extracurricular in our first year. We did a big performance at Center for the Arts in Escondido. It was amazing. And then Bonnie--oh, and then another curatorial thing was happening was Dr. Andrea Liss, who I collaborated with a lot, and Dr. Kristine Diekman. I mean, excuse me. Not Dr. Professor. (Kristine. I love you. You know, it's just as important. what you've done.) Okay. So they were doing a women's rights symposium. So in my second year or my first year--I can't remember, it's in the flyer (points to flyer). It was a really wonderful symposium. So I made a student piece for that, intergenerational. I was on a panel and then I also performed, they invited me. I did this piece in the late nineties called Monster Girl. And it was a very pop piece, feminist piece. And I wore, like, you know, I was standing on a Tide box and doing my soapbox and dancing to Mission Impossible. And it was just like wild. Blue wig-- 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000 I saw the box up there-- 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.882 Oh yeah. Blue wig. Oh-- 00:33:44.882 --> 00:33:45.617 --that says Monster Girl. 00:33:45.617 --> 00:36:43.000 Oh yeah. It has the handcuffs in it, too. I mean, it was just like this kind of rant about women's rights. And so they knew I did the piece. Kristine had actually seen it at Sushi Performance and Visual Arts in '98. So they invited me to perform that. So I kind of came off and running, like performing, early on a lot. I performed a lot less as the years grew on, and I became more administratively driven. So yeah, so that was a curatorial piece. And then Meryl Goldberg picked up Arts and Lectures, and I was on the committee when she was interim. And then she got started in Center ARTES, so I came on and that was a big part of my service for the University. I worked with Marilyn Huerta for many years and for about--I think I was running it for five years. I used to call myself the unofficial Director 'cause they didn't give me that position. That's what--didn't really didn't compensate me. It was just my service, but I can tell you it was more than nine hours a week. And we did between thirty-nine and forty-two events a year for many years. And even the language that's on the website, I'm like, maybe you should update it. No offense (no shade there, Gina, or the committee). Hey, if it's still working, I'm honored. You know, Meryl also came up with some of those, uh, invoke, inspire. So, but I really brought so many performances to this campus. I mean, Dance has always done at least two a year, but I could tell you this year, we got an IRA grant this school year. We did, I don't know, but there must have been--but I have other faculty working with me. So, but Dance Studies probably hosted at least twelve major public events open to the public. So a lot. So it's big. And then my other service to the campus was, I mean, I created the program. I wrote twenty-eight courses. Of course, they're not all offered. There wasn't any, there was a, few courses on the books, and I did keep one called Global Modern Dance, which I think is very sophisticated. Don Funes wrote that when he founded the program. And, I mean, I guess you probably have knew, you already know the history of this program. It started off as an interdisciplinary program, and then there was the desire to branch out into our own disciplines. But there's always been a desire to work cross-disciplinary and interdisciplinary. and Dance always does. We work with theater, we've worked with visual art, we've worked with literature and writing, we've worked with women's studies, we've worked with theater. And so I've done many projects with all of the faculty. I was actually hired as a collaborator that wasn't going--the job description was to be a collaborator. Even though it was for somebody in dance, was to be a collaborator. So I did that. I definitely did that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Yeah, you did. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.264 Yeah. Am I talking too fast, also? 00:36:48.264 --> 00:36:50.815 I think that you are doing just fine. 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.025 Okay, great. Okay. It's a lot. 00:36:55.025 --> 00:37:13.000 Okay. So you've done a substantial amount of international work, and you talked about your desire to live overseas and not be a tourist. And--but how has that work outside of the United States contributed to your development in the field? And you've already kind of touched on this. But if there's anything else you'd like to say. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:40:30.235 Well, to lift up our campus with the, especially with what's going on right now in the world i--the goal is for us to be global citizens. Isn't that part of our mission still? And so learning about other cultures and living elsewhere gives one that lived experience of intercultural exchange, opens your world perspective. It demands one to be flexible and adaptable. I'm open to new ideas. So it's really enriched my life a lot. And it's given me a lot of empathy, compassion, inspiration, all of those things for ways of being in the world. And, I mean, I've primarily worked in Europe, but I've also--I've been to Mexico a few times on some big projects. And those were really, really wonderful experiences. And because our campus is in, you know, our demographic is so Latinx, that it's really important for me to have firsthand experiences there. So I've traveled personally there, but I've also done artistic project projects there. And it's been an incredible experience. Most recently, I went to Pachuca with Kristine Diekman. And we did an incredible project with sound and movement and electronic art. It was really amazing. So that was so great. And it was based on Day of the Dead. And even though I'm not from that culture, people are super open, and I learned so much at the time. And in fact, my mom had just passed, and so they were like--there were ofrendas everywhere. It was very meaningful for me. I got to learn a lot. So it's like just stepping out of one's, where one's from, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think it's super important and I--really sad to hear that programs like that are in jeopardy right now in our country. 'Cause it's like huge. It's a win-win for everybody. So, but yeah, I've had really amazing experiences overseas. I mean, the school I went to in Holland, we were seventy students from twenty-three countries. So it was on one hand chaotic. But on the other hand, we were from a lot of different cultures, but our language was dance. So we were really in the room together and just, and, you know, there was a lot of nonverbal relational experiences. And so that's where dance comes in as its own language. And it's not a universal language, even though we all have, you know, not all, but many of us, or most of us who are fortunate enough to have our four limbs and or five limbs if you count your spine and your whatever, you know, count many, many limbs. But it was, it was a life changing experience for me. And I had traveled one year. I had traveled in my gap year as well, too. So it was an experience. Yeah. Very big travels (unintelligible). 00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:56.255 Okay. So now turning in earnest to your time at CSUSM--you've been a faculty member on campus for twenty-four years. You already talked about what brought you to CSUSM, but what has been the evolution of CSUSM for you and your time here? For example, what did dance on the campus look like in 2001 compared to now? 00:40:56.255 --> 00:42:50.000 Okay. Yeah. Like I mentioned, I had another offer in Idaho. I mean, I had a lot of interviews, so I was very fortunate for that. I got two offers, and it was kind of like no brainer. It was like, ah, this is just opening. There's so much potential. There were a few courses on the books and they were taught by a lecturer named Terry Sprig, to honor her. She's a dance artist, local. I don't know if she's making work still. So she taught a few classes, but I don't even know to the extent. But as soon as I came in, they gave us, it was, days were different. They were like, okay, you have ten days--they don't tell you us before you get hired--you have ten days to get the courses you want to teach on the books. We're gonna be fast tracking those in in UCC (University Curriculum Committee). I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it's called then. So I wrote some quick courses, and one of the courses I wrote was Women in Performance: Choreographies of Resistance 'cause that really came out of my research and my dissertation. And I did a lot of work on circus when I was in grad school. Even though I did contact improvisation, I did a lot of work on physical culture, the turn of the century, the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. So I got to put that class on the books. I put on a technique class and--but there was like, there was only like three classes. One was Global Modern Dance, which we kept, or was it Cultures in Motion? There was a few. Cultures in Motion we kept, too. Upper division general ed. And then, you know, Bill Bradbury was the chair, and he was like, you need an intro course, so write it. So we like--literally, I'm teaching three courses and then I had to write-- 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 --this curriculum. All this curriculum. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. But now it's, now it's really challenging. It's great. We don't get a lot of allocations because of how the students have a shopping cart and how they, how they go through the system. 'Cause we're still a Dance minor. So when I got here, there were only a couple of classes on the books. And I was offered the opportunity within the first ten days, faculty when we arrived, you jump in, you teach your three courses and you get on a committee and then we'd like you to write the courses you'd like to teach in the next ten days. I'm like, okay. So I did that. I know that one of the courses I wrote was called Women in Performance: Choreographies or Resistance 'cause I was really fresh outta graduate school. This was my research of feminism and performance. And so I taught that class for like twelve years. Really exciting. And it became a general--upper division general ed class. And I'm looking forward to teaching it when I come back FERPing (Faculty Early Retirement Program) actually, 'cause I haven't taught it for a while. And then I put technique classes on the books, and then we all were putting in these intro classes. So I put an Intro to Dance class on the books. I think at that time, it might have been a year or two later. It's hard to remember, but I wrote twenty-eight classes over time.mI am grateful to the Dean's office when Michael McDuffie was there and Ranjita Basu, and Michael gave me great advice on how to create curriculum that would satisfy many things. So I had a lot of topics courses at the beginning and things like that. So, I've also--one of the most popular classes--the program has grown in just so many ways. So we were just me. And then there were me one lecturer. And then at one point there were me and like five or six lecturers. And then it was down to just me and like two lecturers, you know, with the ups and downs of the, of our economy. And now we are just--it's been a wonderful group of people. We're five people. In fact, two of them are, one of them just got their PhD as well from UC Riverside. And another one is getting their PhD, Cuauhtemoc Peranda. And Dava Hernandez just got her degree too. So, and then we have Nhu Nguyen and we have finally got a new hire because that was supposed to be related to the development of our own major. And so after many years, Dance got another tenure track line. And so I'm working with Cheri Hill, doing great job and will be the next leader of Dance Studies. I'm really excited about that. Sheri comes with a lot of experience as a teaching artist, and she's worked in the field of arts and ed and dance and education. So before she came, I had already been working with Liberal Studies and Meryl Goldberg on creating a class that would feed Liberal Studies. So we do actually six courses a year that feed Liberal Studies. So that's great. But it's also, we are losing some of our allocations. So it's hard, but it's great. It's great for the field, it's great for the students. And I'm really excited about the way that's really grown. The other area of the program that's grown is like, the diversity of the kinds of classes we wrote, that I wrote, over the years. So I really tried to--we're not doing, like--we're not doing ballet, modern, and jazz, you know. We had hip hop. It declined. We're gonna have--Cheri just wrote a new course. We're gonna have a wonderful new intro to hip hop class coming on that's related to, it's called Hip Hop Fundamentals. So it'll really meet the criteria of general ed. And then we will learn about the history of hip hop and alongside the commercial aspects so, and the very, the strong politics of the field. So we're really doing a lot. And then I'm really proud of a class that I co-wrote called Contemporary Folklorico. So that course has been on the books for almost ten years now. And I wrote it with Alfonso Cervera, and he was a student over at UC Riverside as well, and now is teaching at Ohio State. Amazing job. Amazing leader in dance in terms of Latinx work. And so that class is one of our most popular classes. We teach five or six sections a year, too. And I'm really proud of that because it really meets our demographic here and serving our Hispanic service--our Hispanic learning institution goals. So I just think it's very important that dance just stays--it's an alive field. So it's also, it's not the course--like there were other institutions where you might go work and they would--at least 20 years ago--they would just hand you the book and they're like, here, teach this dance appreciation class. But I've always been like, no, you teach what you know, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna teach some breadth. So when I hire faculty, I make sure that they can teach the breadth of the field and touch on many things, but they can really focus in on their, on their areas of research. So Cuauhtemoc, for example, is really--their p PhD is on voguing. And so they're really teaching the students like the history of voguing, the roots of voguing, the political significance of voguing. And so it touches on a lot of different things in terms of sociology and political science and history. And so we do all of that. So all of the dance classes have built in a practice-theory component. So there's always something, whether it's just a project that's embodied--so the students step out outside of the box and have to do something physically--that you know, that they're able to do. So it's a very active learning environment in Dance Studies. And that's really different here. And I think school--other schools have grown into that, but I was able to start that off at the ground. And so I'm actually really proud of that. This program really fosters that way of learning. So we're not just like watching a movie, we're gonna, at some point you're gonna get up and either make a movie or do a documentary and step into what the work is. Yeah, so we're moving towards a major. Unfortunately it didn't pass UCC, and Cheri is leading that and I'm working with Cheri on that. And we're looking at it as really like a degree that meets many branches of the field. So we still wanna' be creating and nurturing those that wanna' be dance makers. We're also meeting the field of arts and education, integrative arts and learning, and also social justice. So, we could say that word (unintelligible). Social justice. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.835 Absolutely. 00:49:50.835 --> 00:49:55.625 Yes. All of those things are a threat today, so-- 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:55.848 Yeah, of course. 00:49:55.848 --> 00:52:55.000 But that's what we do. And you know I will say like every course that got passed here has the word diversity in it because that's what we do in dance. Dance is a diverse field. And even though I'm a white woman, I mean, from the beginning I always started with Black dance in America because when I taught lower division general ed, because our country is built upon the history of African people. So, dance is so infused with the migrant experience from so many different cultures. So, and then over the years, we have done a few things with American Indian Studies as well. So we're, we're working, we're working it here on our campus. We do a lot of outreach. So whoever we're bringing in is working that way. It's very integrative. So just this semester I'm really proud of a project. Can I say a little bit more about that? In terms of curriculum? So, I always brought guest artists here. And because it's really important for students to meet people working in the field outside of the institution--even though I am working outside of the institution in the summers and in general with my research. But, so I've always brought in guest artists through Arts and Lectures but also through Dance Studies through grants and things like that. So we started off with a very small lab budget, and it's grown. So I have a little line item to bring in guest choreographers. So I've brought in some amazing people. Many of them my teachers. And so those projects really influence the curriculum. So even though we might offer a choreography class, students can take it three times because it'll be different every time. Yeah. And this year, we brought Dancing Through Prison Walls, and it was just a very profound experience. So, I got a nice grant from IRA (Instructionally Related Activities fund) and Arts and Lecturers, and they came, and we did a residency. So again, in terms of like the hours with dance--and I my offer students alternatives if they're working and they can't make it--but they, I always, for the last, before COVID, there were three years and, yeah, three years of artist residency projects. So artists would come and they would either stay with me or friends, or last year we got a little grant money, they could get their own Airbnb. But I put up several artists over the years and they'd make a piece with students and they would leave and then either I or another faculty member would nurture that. And Anya Cloud and I did that for several years together. We did that for three years, where artists would come for a week and then they would leave and then we would rehearse and nurture the piece all the way through the spring dance concert. So yeah. The spring dance concert is our culminating event. Yeah. It's amazing. Very big event. Did I answer your question? 00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:30.304 You did. Okay. So this is a little bit more general, but ,it sounds like, from what you've talked about and your history, that you could have chosen different paths when it comes to dance. Different career paths in terms of what you did with that. Or even back to the high school, right? Like what would've happened if you had gone to the performing arts high school? But you chose a career in higher education. How has that lived up to your expectations? 00:53:30.304 --> 01:03:00.324 Wow. Good question. I have to say I'm super grateful because at least in the U.S., there's not very many jobs in dance. I'm extremely grateful to have a salaried position in the beginning, a pension. So I don't take that lightly. And, yeah. That's big. And there's not that many jobs in dance and higher education. So I feel very, very fortunate that I got this job as well. And that's why when I got it, I mean, I take it very, very seriously. There's a lot of work to be done in the field. And this--I don't even like the word fighters--but everybody working in dance and higher education is, we're fighting for it all 'cause the resources are less and less, unless you're in certain institutions. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. So I worked really hard, I realized. My mom used to even say--'cause I, when I was chair also of VPA (Visual and Performing Arts) for a year and a half, almost two years. Interim chair. And I would go see my parents on spring break 'cause they're from the East coast. And so I'd bring my computer and my mother would be like, You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. So, yeah, I mean I worked a lot. I worked way more than forty hours a week in this job, like way more. And I don't have any regrets. I'm a little tired, maybe, but I know I'll refuel. Hence retiring a little sooner than I thought I was going to. 'Cause we'll probably get to that question, I imagine. Somewhere along the way. But, you know, our campus has grown a lot, but we all in the School of Arts are working hard. You know, we, how do I say this? Lots of gratitude, but we've all, you know, we've all talked about how we need space, how we need a theater. Our university has grown to a size that we're really ready for--I'm not so fixed on dance has to be in a theater. But we do need a place. So I think dance could grow more and could have grown more had we had a space. So we have a beautiful studio that doubles as a black box theater and we share it with Theater. But that's all we have. So, and then we use--Music, Theater, and Dance share the theater, the performance hall that was designed for music. So that's been hard. And so it's like, it gets to be, I used--I don't even use the expression anymore, but for like five, the last five years, I'm like, broken record. Like, we cannot, how, you know, what do you need? Or, you know, if I'm writing with Cheri, the needs that we'll need to have a major, and just because we write we need space doesn't mean that that should halt the major. We have to keep moving forward. But it's that whole what what comes first. It doesn't really work in today's economy, but dance is more important than ever, I believe. And I think the, our SoCal and our nation's culture around dance has changed so much in positive ways. With social media and many things. I'm like, wow. You know, and when I, you know, there was like ten years where people are like, do you watch Dancing With the Stars? When it came out. And I'm kind of like, no you know, like I don't have time to watch that show. Or, you know, like, oh I'm going to the theater this weekend. Because I'm really into promoting for students live art, live dance. Students, when they go and see a show here, they've never been--so many students.have never been to the theater. And it's like, so I really, I'm so grateful for my parents that I had that experience. And again, we weren't, I was from a very working class family, but it was a priority for my parents. And my mom used to take me to Brooklyn College. So I saw like really traditional, amazing Black dance in America throughout the seventies. I mean, my dance education was really opened by having my grandparents in New York and going in and out of New York. And my mother would just take me to these things that I probably would never have seen before. So, I just think the live art experience is really important, and I think our University could be cultivating that more. So that's an expect--that's one criticism. Like we had a President who called it the crown jewel, and it really is, and it could be more of a cultural hub. So that, but otherwise, you know, like I'm super grateful. It took me a long time to get to the pro--dance program. So I worked for fifteen years just doing what a program director does but not compensated for that. I just built the program because what else was I gonna' do? Everybody else was building around me. So I'm like, okay, well build a program. So I kind of floated around a little bit. So I reported to Visual Arts for a while and, but I was still doing the work of being a director. So it's really my--the art. When we sent things up to CAPC (Curriculum and Academic Policy Committee), there was a year that, my colleagues stood up for me and said, It's now time for dance to get a hire. So, to be a program. And then there was the moment where to get a hire--so I was, dance got ranked finally for a hire--but that took like five years once the School of Arts stood behind dance, moving up the line. So there was just many, many years where I was carrying everything. You know, I had a great colleague in Anya Cloud did a lot, and Cherie Hill is doing an amazing job. And all of the lecturers right now are above and beyond. But I also, and I also give them autonomy to do what they want. First of all, I can't do it all on my own anymore, but it's like, in terms of positionality, you know, we're very, we've got a wide spectrum of cultural identities and ethnic identities in our makeup of our program. And that's really important. And so for me, it's like I need to step aside what other people bring, people who they wanna' bring. Even though we always had conversations, I was kind of carrying it. But that now I'm able to find a little pot of money so that they can get a little stipend for curating something that they wanna' bring. So I'm really--contact improvisation at it's heart is about horizontal politics, so I lead with horizontal politics here. And I always have too much information. I send too many emails after the Dean's meeting, even though they're lecturers, I'd send them what's going on because we're, we say we're small and mighty. So in order for the program to grow, let the young people come forward as well. Though I do believe in intergenerational, but I also believe, you know, let the young people come forward. And Cheri is doing and also she's gonna do a great job. And she's already done so much since she's here. So, I trust that it's gonna carry forward. I don't know in what ways, but I'm open to that. You know, and I think I, I believe and have faith that the School of Arts is in full support of Dance. I have great colleagues. I've done many things, but we're all working really hard so--but it's just a great group of people. It always has been. So what was the question? Has CSUSM lived to my exectations? Well, yeah. I would say yes. And yet we know we really, we do need some more space, and I wish we had more allocations 'cause we can't build the min--we can't build the major unless we get the classes. And then you can't get the classes if you can't offer them. And you can't get, you can't offer them if the students don't sign up for them. So there was that moment where the shopping cart card came forward for students. I don't think that was great. I liked when we used to do--it was a lot of work. And even I didn't have a program I used to advise for Visual and Performing Arts. So I would have my own list. You know, the chair would say, Karen, here's your list. You're gonna advise all these people. Okay, what, what do they need to take? You know, they're visual arts students. But these halls used to be full, lined up, you know, when we'd be registering for classes. So you'd get to really meet the students, but then you would ensure that all these classes are gonna be full. But now the students, it's a different climate, but, you know, I can't change the system, so-- 01:03:00.324 --> 01:03:04.231 Bringing on the technology and you know, having-- 01:03:04.231 --> 01:05:40.445 it's great. But it's also, I think students, they need the advice and the opportunity to sit down with not just advising, but here. I think I'm taking a tangent from the--okay. So I hope, I hope that the, I hope that, yeah. I've also, the other thing that I've done with the curriculum that I've been en enabled to do with some amazing colleagues on our campus is create community engagement projects. I didn't really talk about that, but I did a few highlights. I did-- I started the collaboration with A Step Beyond, and our dean is now on the board, a fairly new dean, Dean Leora Gubkin. And for five years I taught a class over there. So, and that really ties into our dance and education pathway that may or may not grow into directly into that, but it's a great opportunity for students. And Meryl is working with Cheri and other faculty on this big arts and education certification. Arts certification project. So we're really in that already. And then I've gotten a few students jobs over at A Step Beyond. And so that was great. And I worked with Community Engagement. I got a little stipend at one point to work with them and create a course that was specific to working with them called Dance in the Community. That was inspired by Kristine Diekman as well. She did a big video in the community project for many years that always inspired me. She made public service announcements with like, so many underserved communities in our area. And so she's always been like, how do you do that? So she, she lit the way for me, so I wanna' acknowledge her also in this interview. So there was that. And then I did, I worked with Veronica Anover and worked at the Glenner Town Center, which is an Alzheimer's day center. And we did a whole project there. And then I did another fundraiser over at the Conrad Prebys theater in La Jolla. So I've done a few big community projects. I worked with the Museum of--it was called Museum of Man then--at Balboa Park. And I worked with Judy Bauerlein, and we brought guest artists there, and we did big project there. So I think those kinds of experiences for students are so important. 01:05:40.445 --> 01:05:45.172 Yeah. And a lot of like community feelers and outreach. 01:05:45.172 --> 01:06:24.000 Yeah. And bringing community to campus, too. I've brought a lot of community to campus 'cause I brought some well-known artists here. So different schools would come here. I worked with NCHEA (North County Higher Education Alliance) as well for like five years in my early days. And we did some really big projects. We brought legendary Donald McKayle here. He was at UC Irvine. He was already in his late seventies, early eighties when he came. I think it was early eighties. And he was the Alvin Aileys teacher. And so we've done, we've done some big things. I'm sure there will be more big things. Yeah. So to our little campus, we've done some big projects. 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:59.605 That's right. Okay. So this is changing gear a bit. Okay so my, the overarching question is what did you do during Covid? But in our pre-interview you mentioned, you talked about the double pandemic and that the Covid-19 virus increased awareness of systemic racism. So the question really is what did you do during Covid? When we were all kind of locked inside-- 01:06:59.605 --> 01:14:20.635 Well, I did a lot during Covid. I--with the rise of Black Lives Matter and the murder of George Floyd, you know, everything stopped in certain ways. And I immediately, you know--for a moment--and then I immediately gathered with other colleagues in School of Arts, a few of us, we worked the entire summer to create a series. We got some money from the dean's office through some donors, through the Wagner family. And we used all of that money to program online lectures and performances. So that was like a big project. I don't know. We did at least nine, ten events per semester that was open to whole campus. But we really geared it towards School of art students to get them, to get them going. And it was, at that time during COVID, too, there was a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) project that I worked that Mtifiti Imara invited me to be part of. So I worked with a faculty member.So the artist that we worked with was T. Lang. And we also worked with Melicia Taylor, who's become a friend and collaborator Melicia was a lecturer here in Music. So Melicia was also hired. So these are significant Black artists. Melicia is a sound designer and an opera singer. And Melicia came here and brought compositions. And we did a piece with, I think it was my choreography class. It was choreography or improvisation. We did a dance film called I Am, and the students did their own choreographies at home. And then she worked with a filmmaker to sew it together. So we did a film. I brought another artist. We were still in--well we were just opening--Jose Abad from San Francisco, another Black artist. So I brought a lot of--working with a lot of Black artists to campus. I was doing that. like I said, I've been doing that all along. But it was really a focus on that with HBCU--our campus relationship grew with that. Cheri just did that project this year. So yeah, I was really amazed at that. And we worked with students. We came in even though the campus was on lockdown. We got permission to come in and students got to work with some of these choreographers over Zoom and made their own works. So Skyla Miles and Minnie Atkins both made work, both alum from Dance Studies with, during this HBCU project. Also brought, Mayfield Brooks, who was very known in New York and in Europe and South America, and well, globally, for her work with--she calls it improvising while Black. And she has written a lot and did a lot of projects around Black culture and survival and things. So yeah, it was very, very prolifically busy and happening. And then at the same time, I was gearing up for my sabbatical application. And so even though we were in, still in Covid, I wrote my application to do this project called Think Gravity Dance Tank. So that was really involving--it was happening still during Covid. And we had a symposium and it was taking on the 50th anniversary of contact improvisation. So that's my, it was almost a continuation. It's kind of is a continuation of what I wrote about in my PhD in 2001 about contact not being universalist and who writes the history. So we brought forward some less recognized histories. So Ishmael Houston-Jones was my teacher in Holland way back when, in 1990. No, 1989. 1989. That's his brick (points to brick on window sill). He has a very famous bit called White Hope that he dances with this brick and he's danced with a brick internationally. And he's a very well respected artist. So it was a very creative way to do a curatorial project, where we invited four people, and we let them invite four people. And then we brought students. So Anya Cloud got a job at, in Boulder, University of Colorado. So they have a much bigger facility. So we did it there. And we had a week-long symposium, and we called it a reckoning with contact improvisation. And we stepped back 'cause we're both white women and we let everybody else lead. And, but we held the container and things like that. And then from that, we created a film because we had so much stuff. We had interview, we interviewed everybody, and then we had incredible footage. So we made a documentary. That documentary won best documentary at the Toronto Dance Film Festival. So we were happy with that. Or Contact Festival (Contact Dance International Film Festival) was just recently. And we've screened it in a few places, and it's gotten really good feedback. So it's a bit of a reckoning with the history in terms of who's identified 'cause contact improvisation is historicized as very white. Whereas its influences are very much based in African American culture, history and ways of working in jazz music and things like that. In terms of what is a jam, what is it to improvise. And then also there is a history of Eastern Asian American and Asian art influences in terms of what is yielding, what is gravity, what is meditation. So we brought in other voices to speak about cultural histories and positionality in terms of race and culture. So it was really, it was really productive and it was a deep experience. And it was cool 'cause we brought--I got student success funds from here and Anya got some money from her institution. So we involved, we were about twenty-six people, something like that. Between twenty-four and twenty-eight. But half of them were students. So it was really important to bring the future forward. So again, this was another project that really is based in intergenerational community and containers. And I'm really happy 'cause Makisig Akin is Philippinx and they took the model of curation and they did a whole BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) dance festival in Berlin, probably one of the first or of the first. And they used that model of curation and they were really, really excited that, to learn that way of curating. So there's that curating piece of mine, too, that yeah. People, if nobody curates, then you're not gonna' have the work, you know And we're, it's strong to curate one at a time, but it's also strong to curate symposiums that bring people togetherfor some time. Yeah. 01:14:20.635 --> 01:14:32.795 Okay. So do you have work, a work that you've accomplished in your career that has been most impactful in your opinion? 01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.704 Impactful on the field or-- 01:14:34.704 --> 01:14:35.805 To you. 01:14:35.805 --> 01:14:42.104 Oh, to me or to the field? 01:14:42.104 --> 01:14:46.305 Or both. 01:14:46.305 --> 01:16:17.000 Well, in terms of my training, my work with Debra Hay affected my perceptual improvisation very greatly. So Deborah Hay is a, still working artist and dance elder. And I studied with her, I saw her perform in Holland, but I wasn't in her class. And then I brought her with this group Lower Left that I worked with for many years in San Diego. So I've dipped in and out of her work. And I'm really proud that I recently got to perform with her in her work at the Getty. It was a re-dance, a recreation of a work from the sixties. So she was a very significant artist that emerged in the sixties. And she's continued to emerge internationally. So she really had a great impact on my career of how I dance. But I think--I don't know, it's such a hard question. I guess--now I'll get a little emotional because I guess creating the program is probably my biggest impact. I mean, it was a lot of work. 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.000 A lot of work. A lot of really important work. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:19:24.505 I hope University continues to support it. I mean, I think it had the greatest impact 'cause I--thousands of students have taken dance classes here. And I'm sure, because you can read it, some of them was whoa, but most of them always write in the evals, I didn't know dance could be like this, or I didn't know--I just can't imagine that we would talk about dance like this, or dance could be this way or this class--even if I'm not teaching it. But creating a program where the people are invited to teach what they love to teach, to teach what they know and but to also really keep bringing in this idea that we're gonna embody the learning. I think San Marcos is unique like that, and I think the way it's open has and its opening, is pretty unique. And, but I guess, you know, I've, and I've done Summer Arts as well, so I've worked within the system and I did six summers with Summer Arts. I did two as an artist. One was during my hire, one was before my hire. And that program is over. It just got closed. 'Cause one of the biggest things the State of California did for the arts was like, oh my gosh. But I think it's, I guess I never really thought about that when you said is there some favorite work? And I was like, favorite, I mean, you know, Think Gravity was enormous. Veronica was enormous. Live Legacy was enormous. You know? I had a big practice in San Diego with people for seven years. We met every Thursday researching dance, and then I'll show you after on the wall. Lower Left was huge part of my life. Holland, Riverside was huge. But I guess the biggest accomplishment or impact, the greatest impact would be I guess this Wow. I never thought about it like that. When I visited, when I was doing, um, the Deborah Hay work--Deborah Hay is friends with Susan Foster, who's the, who I referred to as the godmother of dance studies. I don't know if she'd like that title, but I'll give it to her. She was like--I went to visit her house. She was like, You did it. She, because I think when they took me into that program, I was a bit of a wild card card 'cause they took a lot of scholars. They didn't--at the time wasn't practicing PhD, but I was dancing, like really committed to dancing and performing still. And so I was a bit of a wild card. I didn't get the, I didn't get the scholarship, you know, the first year. I didn't get the teaching the first year. They took me, but they didn't give me the, they didn't give me the scholarship. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do this anyway and see how I like it. And so that, but she looked at me, she's like, You did it. 'Cause you know, I guess I did, right? There's a program here. So time to let it go to the next people. 01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:26.000 Well, that comes to the last question-- 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000 --the last question, I imagine-- 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000 which is-- 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.496 now you got me going. 01:19:30.496 --> 01:19:43.234 Oh it's. We want to, we want to get your feelings in there, too. What do you plan to do both personally and professionally in your retirement? 01:19:43.234 --> 01:23:27.185 Well, the first thing I want to do, and I am doing it, is slowing down a bit. I'm coming off of a season of lot of loss, too, a lot of loss of family. So yeah, I wanna' slow down. So I'm gonna slow down this summer and do some organizing. Continue to clean the office a little bit. And also, um, yeah, do some organizing. And then planning for my fall. I'm gonna go to Austria. I've been invited by my mentor, Donna Ray, who's a top-level Feldenkrais teacher. And she runs the institute in Vienna, the training institute. So I'm gonna' go with, there's a brand-new cohort starting. So I rented myself an apartment overlooking some park in Vienna, and it has a beautiful view of a park. And I'll walk through the park every morning and I, I'll be an assistant in the training. That means I'll be working basically. And I'm hoping that will really hone my skills even more so as I transition into retirement, I'm still gonna' be working. I'm not like retiring. So there's a woman who, as a dance legend, there's just many dance legends, you know, who work into their nineties. It's not like you stop. I really think I will always be working in the field in some way. I don't know what that is yet. I would like to curate in a theater, but they don't have those kinds of spaces in San Diego anymore, where you can just have a studio like that where you can. That's one of the things I would, I could imagine. So I'm gonna' do that and I'm gonna' go to visit a former student who's now a well-known Swiss actress and has a wonderful family. So I'm gonna' stay with her and watch her on the big stage and take a walk in the Alps. And then I'm going to do a vocal training. And it something--it's called Roy Hart. And I studied with them in San Francisco, one of their proteges. It's in a long line of lineage from the thirties and forties. And it's a vocal technique that was used in theater, like experimental theater, in the fifties and sixties. But it's also like, I'll use the word therapy. I'm not afraid of that. It's therapeutic as all art can be therapeutic, healing. Like let's transform. That's what we do in the arts, we transform. So I'm going to study some voice. And then when I come back, I'm already invited--there's a, I used to, I put myself through graduate school as a Pilates trainer, even though I'm not certified at Pilates. But I'm gonna bring Feldenkrais into their Pilates studio and do like a little one night a week class. And then, my friend Anya is up for--Anya and Mcsig are up for a big, NEFA, the New England Foundation of the Arts is one of the few funders that give fairly big money in dance in our country. They're a finalist if they get that they're doing an interdisciplinary dance project. And I guess I'll be performing. So that's the goal. The goal is to keep doing yoga, dance, walk, social activism. And I also like to paint and write. 01:23:27.185 --> 01:23:27.965 Wow. 01:23:27.965 --> 01:23:33.154 We'll see. There'll be a little more time for that. Yeah. 01:23:33.154 --> 01:23:36.994 I love that. You're gonna keep busy. 01:23:36.994 --> 01:23:41.045 Yeah, I'll be busy, but I've also, this summer, I'm gonna slow it down. 01:23:41.045 --> 01:23:51.000 And that's really good, too. So is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? 01:23:51.000 --> 01:25:41.064 I think what I would like to do though is we talked about taking a few photos. And I'm really happy--I guess what I'll say is that I'm really happy that the University's interested in this interview and maybe scanning some of the posters and all things that were presented. Maybe they can even use it to use it as fuel to get a theater or a bigger production venue. Or, or a unit that would like to take care of some of these things so that faculty don't have to do all that work, But I also, I guess I wanna' really honor the founding faculty. Maybe just take a moment. I could close with that. Everybody worked really hard, and I'm really honored to have been part of the upstart. And I hope and believe that our campus will keep on during whatever's going on in the world. And I really hope that the arts can really stay strong here. Yeah. I think we are such an incredible group of artists in the School of Arts, so I just wanna' wish everybody well and to keep on. And I really, I hope that students will--and faculty and committees and the administration will--see really the value of what Dance does. 'Cause dance is really, plays a big role in the world. And like I said, it can be a lot of fun, but it goes way deeper than that. 01:25:41.064 --> 01:25:57.645 Well, that's a really great note to end on. Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to thank you for allowing us to celebrate you and your career and every, all the hard work that you've done all of this time. And I know there's a lot more to come for you, but kind of at this milestone-- 01:25:57.645 --> 01:25:58.354 Thank you. 01:25:58.354 --> 01:26:01.805 --you know, moment for you. Just thank you for sharing with us. 01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:09.234 Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. 01:26:09.234 --> 01:29:28.000 There's a few projects that I'd like to highlight that were highly sponsored by the University and that had a great, also had a great impact on my life. And the first one is a project called United and Severed. I think that I will reach for the pamphlet to refresh myself on how important this project was. So I did this with Professor Kristine Diekman, and actually this project was really personal, but I was able to take a very personal experience--this is what artists do if you don't write memoirs, and they take it out into the world. And so it was following my own--I had a very severe traumatic injury while I was employed here. Lived through that. And I stood in as like a surrogate body on film for the topic of that window of time. So it deals with women and traumatic injury and PTSD. So at the time, I was also in close relationship with somebody who is working as a active--not active duty--non-active duty for the military, who was working around soldiers and PTSD and the Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq aftermath. And so Kristine and I looked for alum and students from our school, who were survivors of traumatic injury and how they dealt with it. And so Kim Anderson is--was in it and she was a CSUSM Liberal Studies major. And Ivy Kensinger was a student of mine and also Veronica Anover. She survived a horrific car accident on the way to campus. And turns out she is now a PhD in psychology. So very--came through in a miracle way. And we did a project that was a very poetic representation of movement and understanding disability. So that was featured. And we also worked with Butoh dancers because it was also during the time of some wild fires out in East County. So we took a group of students and we took down a tree from the extremities down to the trunk that was burned. And Richard Keeley is a professor, was a professor at San Diego State--is retired. and Anna O'Cain is a professor, visual art professor, who was working at Miracosta. And we did a huge project together that was featured at Center for the Arts Escondido. So I really wanted to highlight that. It was a very deep project. We have beautiful video footage. Kristine did an incredible job editing. I was sitting alongside her. She pushed all the buttons. Of course, it was really her editing that made the project so spectacular. And our work was featured in many film festivals internationally. So I just really wanted to mention that we have this beautiful artifact from that. And then the other project that I wanted to talk about was, um, wait a minute. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.315 Your palliative care work. 01:29:30.315 --> 01:30:59.000 Oh, my current work that I will continue when I'm, that I actually have a meeting in ten minutes for, that I'm working with Palliative Care--that's a pilot project--that's run by Michael McDuffie. And I'm working with Ranjita Basu and Andrew Spieldenner. And now we have a cohort of people from the Mindfulness Center working on it. And we're working with Elizabeth Healthcare Center, Elizabeth Hospice Center. And we're doing a once-a-month project on mindfulness. And so I'm bringing in the somatic piece. So really it's been a great, We've been working on that together for about a year and a half. And now we're enacting it over there in Escondido. And next week we'll have our third monthly session, and it will go through the year. So I will be still staying involved as a volunteer for that, while I'm off the books. And so I'm very happy to be doing practical applications in different fields. And that connects as I interweave everything that I've said today, that you know, that what I do with dance and what I believe dance can do in the world has a great impact because we're working with the body and compassionate empathy. We all have a body. We're always moving, even if it's, we're just, we're down to the breath. Breath is movement. And so with that, I'll just take a breath and say thank you. 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.000 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-084 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0068bb6bea2ea5f55c2f9c5c968a5d27.pdf a666cc68c14f402d6f965e1b1ace736a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview transcript, June 5, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_transcript Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Regina Eisenbach OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. higher education;women in leadership;Western Association of Schools and Colleges;mentorship;administration OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. SC027-085 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm higher education ; women in leadership ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; mentorship ; administration Regina Eisenbach Jennifer Fabbi moving image EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1b6dd8309f4ca65c7028d0d2f151d601.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood and adolescence Eisenbach reflects on her childhoood. She was born in Puerto Rico but is of Cuban descent. She was very close with her parents. She attended University of Miami for her undergraduate degree. San Juan, Puerto Rico ; Cuban ; only child ; Miami ; Massachusetts ; University of Miami ; Gainesville 0 175 College experience Eisenbach's undergraduate degree was in psychology after which she started a PhD program in Management Studies in the COllege of Business at University of Miami. psychology ; academic ; business ; organizational behavior ; calculus ; Program in Management Studies 0 399 Eisenbach meets her spouse Eisenbach met her husband at the same time as she started her PhD program when she was twenty years old. They have now been together since 1987. Hialeah, Florida ; Madonna ; young ; girlfriend 0 509 Moving to San Marcos Eisenbach found out about a faculty position at CSU San Marcos from her PhD advisor. She interviewed a few places but ended up accepting the job at CSU San Marcos. Her plan was to be in San Marcos for two years and to move back to Miami. Chet Schriesheim ; young woman ; Dean Bernie Hinton ; faculty position ; marriage ; Spanish speaking ; Cal Poly Pomona ; Florida Atlantic University ; Len Jessop 0 878 CSU San Marcos when Eisenbach arrived When Eisenbach arrived at CSUSM, the "campus" was in an office park a few miles away from where the permanent campus would eventually be built. She was an instrumental contributor to the creation of the Business curriculum. She loved teaching, but research more of a challenge for her. College of Business Administration ; San Diego State ; curriculum ; research agenda ; teaching ; service ; Academy of Management ; administration 0 1232 Administrative path Eisenbach started on her path to administration early in her tenure at CSUSM. She reflects on the positions she has held and some of the ups and downs along the way. dean ; interim dean ; Kathleen Watson ; associate dean ; Mohammed Mustafa ; friendships ; challenges ; Dennis Guzman ; work-life balance ; disappointment ; provost ; Graham Oberem ; Patricia Prado-Olmos 0 1919 Role in Academic Programs Eisenbach was named as the Associate Vice President of Academic Programs (now Dean of Academic Programs) in 2013. In this role, she has overseen the academic catalog, the curriculum, assessment, and accreditation. In 2019, academic advising was added to her to her portfolio. catalog ; curriculum ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; Accreditation Liaison Officer ; accreditation ; dean ; asessment ; advising ; President Karen Haynes ; student affairs ; academic affairs 0 2112 Evolution of CSUSM After thirty-four years at CSUSM, Eisenbach reflects on its evolution. The building of the physical campus was a key milestone, and she was very closely involved with the building of the Markstein Hall. She also discussed the growth of the student body. Regina expresses her gratitude for getting to be a part of the evolution from the beginning and being able to build CSUSM for future generations. campus ; buildings ; Markstein Hall ; enrollment growth ; City of San Marcos ; infrastructure 0 2304 Becoming an academic Eisenbach discusses her unexpected path to a career as an academic. teacher ; academic struggle ; academic conference ; research 0 2449 High points at CSUSM and impactful work Eisenbach reflects on the high points and low points of her time at CSUSM. Highs include the opening of Markstein Hall, the great people she has worked with, and her son graduating from CSUSM. She also discusses her work and what she thinks has been most impactful. Markstein Hall ; Melissa Simnett ; reaccreditation ; son ; graduation ; Academic Advising ; Academic Programs ; Curriculog ; Acalog ; catalog ; curriculum ; pandemic 0 2742 People who have influenced Eisenbach's career Eisenbach gives credit to colleagues and mentors who have influenced her career over the years. Dennis Guzman ; Beverly Anderson ; mentorship ; women in leadership ; Pat Worden ; President Karen Haynes ; Kamel Haddad ; Graham Oberem ; Dawn Formo ; David Barsky 0 3034 Plans in retirement Eisenbach discusses her professional plans for retirement as she will be participating in the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Faculty Early Retirement Program ; Voluntary Separation Incentive Program ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; WASC accreditation teams ; Ecuador 0 Oral history Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Regina Eisenbach for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is July 1st, 2025 at 10:30 a.m. This interview is taking place at Regina's office on the CSU San Marcos campus. Regina, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Thank you. I'm honored that you asked. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Okay. So to start off, we'll start young. Can you tell me about your childhood and adolescence, for example, where you were born and a bit about your family? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:02:43.000 Sure. so I was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico by accident. I'm not Puerto Rican, but I'm actually Cuban. I'll get to that in a second. My dad was there on business. My mom went to go see him, and she was bedridden for six months to have me. And so she was in Puerto Rico and got stuck there basically. And so I was born there. I think that's telling because it shows the kind of parents that I had. So I was an only child and they'd lost--my mom miscarried four times before me, and after me, I had a brother who died after a day. And so my parents lost a lot of children. I was the only surviving kid, so they were, (tears up)--didn't think it would start this early. So they were very devoted to me. And you'd say overprotective, but as a young child, it was great. So we lived in, we moved to Miami early on and then moved to Massachusetts for a little bit, came back to Miami. And so I grew up in Miami from second grade all the way through college. And went to the University of Miami because when I graduated from high school, wasn't really ready to leave home. So went there and went to graduate school there as well, because I thought I might wanna' go away to grad school, and a little independence from my parents at that point when I was, you know, twenty or so. And when I said, Yeah, I think I might go to Gainesville or something, they'd say, oh, they said, Okay, we'll come with you. Okay. That defeats the purpose. So I think I will just stay here. And so I did. And so I went straight from my parents' house to my husband's house. I have never lived alone. So that also says a little bit about me. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:55.000 Okay. So you started to talk a little bit about your education. Can you tell me about your formal education, including your areas of academic focus? 00:02:55.000 --> 00:06:35.000 Yeah, so I my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I did my undergrad in three years. And so when I was, I graduated from college, I was, I wasn't even--I was twenty and wasn't ready to leave school. So I know some folks say that, you know, they always knew they wanted to be an academic or they always knew they wanted to be such and such. I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew is I wasn't ready to leave school. So I was looking for graduate programs. And I got word that this professor over in the College of Business was starting a PhD program in business. It was gonna be brand new in organizational behavior. And I thought, Okay, that's, you know, psychology adjacent, let's check this out. And one of those vivid memories I still remember and he did, too--what I was wearing the day that I went to see him 'cause I was wearing red high top Reebok sneakers. This was in 1980--Lord, '87. So yeah, I swear it was in style then. And I wandered into his office and he said, yeah, we're gonna start this new PhD program, but it'll be great. And so I said, sure, why not? So I got in, it was a full assistantship, so I didn't have to pay for it. I actually didn't have to pay for any of my education. It's something that I look back on. And I think, how did that work? Because my parents didn't make a lot of money. I got lot of scholarships. And so my undergrad was completely covered. And then the PhD program was a full ride. Truly blessed. Didn't really know at the time what a blessing it was. And so I thought, all right, I'll try this. And the PhD program, since it was brand new, I was the first student admitted. And there weren't classes for just us in business, so we took classes--there was, there were only two or three, there were a few IO (industrial organizational) psych students in the program at the time, but there was five of us total, if that. So we would take classes with the other PhD students and other disciplines. But when I started my PhD advisor said, Well, you haven't taken calculus. And I said, Yes, I know. That was intentional. He said, well, business folks have to take calculus. And so I did. As a graduate student, one of my classes was to take calculus with the freshmen. And I got an A minus, I still remember. So that first summer of the PhD program, since I didn't have an undergraduate degree in business, I had to take classes with the MBA students. And it was the name has since changed, but I am not even making this up. The program was called the PMS (laughter) Program in Management Studies. And it was basically a business bootcamp, so really condensed all of the basics of business. And I learned that I hated accounting and I hated economics, and I sucked at it. And I got my first Cs ever in school in those two classes. But overall, you know, I liked school and I liked the--I thought, Okay, I'll, you know, keep doing this. And so that's how I got into the PhD program. It wasn't anything premeditated, which is actually the story of my life. It wasn't a plan. It was just, Eh, this'll work out. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.000 And Regina, when did you meet your husband and where? 00:06:39.000 --> 00:08:19.000 I met him the day after I started the PhD program. So I was twenty years old. We both grew up in the same town in Hialeah, Florida. And met through a mutual friend. He, my friend and my husband worked at Marshall's together. And it was, the Madonna was going on tour, the Who's That Girl concert. And back in the day, he had to sleep in the parking lot. You may even be too young to remember this. You had to sleep in the parking lot to get concert tickets. And so my husband and my friend were sleeping for the Madonna tickets, and I was supposed to meet them in the morning to give them my money for my ticket and stand in line when they bought them. My husband had no idea. He just thought I was coming 'cause I was, you know, Rick--our friend's name was Rick--Rick's friend. And so I showed up. So we met in the parking lot of Westland Mall, very romantic. And I saw him, and the first thing I thought of was, He looks very young. And so I pulled Rick aside. I said, Rick, how old is this guy? He goes, no, I swear he is your age. Okay, great. Turns out he is, he's two days younger than I am. And it was, I mean, for me it was like, wow. Almost love at first sight. And so that was June 6th that we met. And we went out, we started talking on the phone every day. And we went out in a big group on June 12th, and he asked me to be his girlfriend. And we've been together ever since. 1987. 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Okay. So how did you find out about the CSU San Marcos faculty position? And what was the process of you moving here? 00:08:29.000 --> 00:14:25.000 So as I mentioned in my retirement speech, like one of those moments that just sticks in your mind. I was standing in my PhD advisor's office and his name was Chet Schriesheim. And my mom, who I alluded to, I'm Cuban. So my mom was raised in Cuba, born in Spain. My dad was Hungarian. And my mom had a very thick accent when she spoke English. And we used to joke that she had her own language 'cause the way she pronounced things so she could not say Schriesheim to save her life. So she called him Shoeshine. And so we all did. So I was standing in Shoeshine's office, and Shoeshine knew my mom called him Shoeshine. We got very close. He became--not that I needed a father 'cause my father was very, very strong presence in my life. But he became a father figure. So much so that his son was the ring bearer at my wedding. And so I was standing in his office and 'cause I was really young at the time, I remember I was, you know, twenty when I started grad school, I was twenty. And so he really, you know, made it a point of raising me in the academy as well as, you know, trying to prepare me for being a young, very young woman in this field. So anyway, I'm standing in his office and he, back then, it was all mail obviously. And so he got a letter from then acting Dean Bernie Hinton, who was founding faculty here who was recruiting. And so he sent letters to all the PhD chairs at institutions that he was familiar with. And so Shoeshine read the letter to me and it said do you know of anybody who wants to take on the opportunity of building the first new public university in twenty-five years in this country? And I said, Alright, I'll give it a shot. And so that's how I ended up interviewing here. And when I came to interview, I--so at the time, I was with Angel and we had already made plans to get married. And so we were looking at the job market together, and we said, We need to go someplace where people speak Spanish. And so ignorantly, now we know, we said, Oh, San Diego. Great. They speak Spanish there, and Mexicans, Cubans, same deal. Yeah, it's not at all. But we figured, all right, California would be, you know, pretty cool. So I interviewed at Cal Poly Pomona, and I interviewed here, and I interviewed at Florida Atlantic University in Boca. We didn't wanna' leave Miami, and we thought we never would leave Miami. And in fact, the, I was heartbroken to know that U of M wouldn't hire me 'cause they didn't, they really didn't like to hire their own grad students. 'Cause the plan was supposed to be, I was supposed to stay in Miami, and we were gonna buy the house next door to my parents. And that's it. We were gonna stay there. So I came out here to interview and remember somebody that, you know, picked me up, Len Jessop. He was on the faculty then went on to become UNLV's President. And he picked me up. There was no campus, it was Cal State Jerome's. He took me to the office park. None of that bothered me 'cause I was young. And he drove me down Barham, and they pointed at the dirt and they said, There's gonna be a campus there. Oh, great. And they showed me the drawing and all the things. And I remembered the people seemed to be a little younger as compared to Cal Poly Pomona, especially. A little younger. Very excited and super energized. And I thought, Wow, this is great. Too bad I'm never gonna' leave Miami. So the, I did get offered eventually the job at Cal Poly Pomona, but I thought, no, it's just the, the vibe was very traditional and it felt old to me. I was twenty-four. Everything feels old when you're twenty-four. And Florida Atlantic only had a visiting position, so Angel and I thought Well, we'll go to California for a couple years, and we'll come back 'cause by then something will have opened up. And so we did. And moving out here was--we got married August 2nd, moved out here August 12th, 1991. And it was one of the most traumatic things we have-I have--ever done, we have ever done. We got here, got to our apartment on Mission, still there. And had to buy everything 'cause we came with no furniture, nothing. So we went to Jerome's and we bought an apartment full of furniture, and went to the grocery store where the Stater Brothers is now. And got on a payphone, called home and said we wanted to come back. And we were going to 'cause we had bought round trip tickets because it was cheaper. And so we thought, All right, the round trip goes back in a week. We can, we can go. And we kind of thought we were 'cause it was just, it was heartbroken, it was the fir-- heartbreaking. It was the first time we had ever been away from our families. And Angel moved out here sight unseen. He had never even been to California. So thankfully, I think the next day I went onto into the office, I can't even say campus 'cause it was an office park. And saw the people again, got excited about the opportunity. And that's why we decided, All right, we'll give it, we'll give it the two years. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:38.000 And you've talked a little bit about this, but what was the entity, the organization, CSU San Marcos, like when you arrived? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Well, it was, there were no offices. So I was, you know, in a cubicle for the first, what, three years. Everybody knew, literally, everybody knew everybody 'cause it was tiny. When I got hired in COBA (College of Business Administration), there were eight faculty, and then four were hired when I got there at the same time as me. Three Asian guys and me. And it was--in some ways it's good that I was so young because I didn't know that I should be terrified because of everything that we had to do. They--the curriculum in COBA was basically just San Diego State's repackaged. And, but the Dean, Bernie at the time said, you know this is just a placeholder for us. We're gonna, and then the first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna create our own. Well, I didn't even know what curriculum was, so I had to go to the library to get a book to, because back then, PhD programs did not train perspective faculty in teaching pedagogy, curriculum design, or any of that stuff. It was straight up research. And by the way, my PhD advisor, Shoeshine, thought I was nuts to come here because he said, you are gonna' be overwhelmed with service. You're not gonna' be able to get your research agenda off the ground. And I said, Yeah, you know, two years, it'll be fine. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that just fell into place, me coming here because, you know--spirit of full disclosure--as far as the profession. I loved to teach. I was very good at it, not just to toot my own horn, but I was very good at it. And students loved me. I loved the students. So I was a great teacher. The research I could do. It wasn't my passion, though. And so coming here was a blessing in that way because I was able to lean into my strength, which was teaching and this whole new thing of service that as a faculty member or as a PhD student, I had no clue what that was about. Shoeshine used to call it administrivia, if he ever had to serve on a committee. And when I would go to conferences, the Academy of Management, and I would go to the PhD or the new faculty seminars, and I would talk to people and they would look at me like, You're doing what? You're on what committee? What? And they thought I was insane. But looking back, it was the best training for an administrator that you could ever have as a faculty member. So I, you know, unbeknownst to me, I was kind of on this trajectory towards becoming an administrator without even knowing it. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:43.000 Okay. So your focus for the first years of your career was in the classroom. And what did you teach? And then what was the focus of your research and service, which you've spoken to a little bit, but anything else you'd like to add? 00:17:43.000 --> 00:20:20.000 Yeah, so I taught management and organizational behavior. And I taught IO (industrial organizational) psych in the early days. And I taught H--I think I taught HR once, but mostly it was the basic organizational behavior class. And the classrooms were storefronts back then. So there was a glass in the back and there's little shutters, but inside it looked like a classroom. And almost all of my students were older than me. I think all of my students were older than me. So back then I used to always wear suits and professional stuff and wear glasses to look older. So yeah, on the research side I continued to work with some of my PhD student colleagues to get, because, you know, you have to get enough stuff out the door to get tenure. So, so I did that. The great secret of my life was that I came here at the time ABD ("All But Dissertation"). So I was, I wasn't done with my dissertation, which in retrospect was insane. Coming into a brand new job, brand new everything. And I was scared to death. I didn't tell anybody when I got here and then finally one day I just broke down in the dean's office in Bernie's office and said, I just, I wasn't able to finish the year, but I'm almost done. I just have to write this stuff up. And he said, Don't worry about it, you'll finish it. So by March of the spring semester, I was done and I walked. So part of my first semester was, you know, finish up the dissertation, get started on your res- on your teaching. And oh, by the way, you'll be on all these committees. I don't know. I don't know how I did it. So those were the yeah, the early years. And then the yeah, the service stuff was just all, everything you can imagine. So there's a faculty member in computer science at the time, Shell Baning. And he said, Oh, you should be on Academic Senate. I, what, what is that? And so I was, that was one of the first things I did. And I remember then, and it's still true now, how can they spend forty-five minutes talking about one sentence in a document? I don't understand. So that's why when folks, Academic Senate, now when I see things, it's like, I, what, so what's new? I've seen this for years. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Okay. So you started your administrative path relatively early on in your career. Can you tell me what that path looked like for you and the positions that you've held? 00:20:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000 So in 1999 we had a dean search. And for reasons completely unbeknownst to me 'cause I was an associate professor at the time, the then-vice president for Academic Affairs, he was not pro--the title didn't include Provost yet. That's a not recent anymore, but in '99 it was just the VPAA (Vice President for Academic Affairs). He asked me to serve as the Dean Search Committee Chair. And so, Alright, sure. And unfortunately the search was not successful. So the VPAA had to pick an interim dean and chose one of my colleagues, Kathleen Watson. And she and I were very close and close friends as well as colleagues. We did consulting together. We were friends outside of work. And so he thought--the VPAA thought I could be her associate dean. And so I was made interim Associate Dean in 1999. And I thought, you know, sure, for a year, I'll try it. I don't have any idea what it entails. Because up until then, the associate deans in the colleges had been these older full professors at the time. I thought they were old. I now look back and think they were like way younger than I am now. I am sure. And so I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I said, yes, I would be associate dean 'cause I figured I'm working with Kathleen, it'll be okay. And then there was another dean search and that one also failed, and the VPAA--no wait, no, that dean search was successful, sorry. And he, the dean who came in, came from Cal State Long Beach, Mohammed Mustafa. Called him Mo, rest his soul. He kept me on as associate dean, and he made me permanent. And the first, the first semester was fine ; after that thing started going sideways because his management style and what the faculty wanted at the time were completely different. And the faculty--he began to get really suspicious of them. They began to really hate him. And I was stuck right in the middle. And so that was, I'm sure one of the questions is gonna' be, what's the most chal-- what are the most challenging times that you faced here? That was really one of them, if not the most, because I basically lost all my friends because Kathleen and the other senior faculty thought that I had betrayed them because I stayed on as Associate Dean. They thought I should have resigned. But, you know, at the time, I liked the job and I didn't want to, I didn't wanna' quit. And they never got over the fact that I stayed on as Mo's Associate Dean. And so lost my friends. They wouldn't talk to me. People would yell at me in meetings 'cause they couldn't yell at him. So it was really unpleasant. And so after eighteen months, Mo resigned and that was the only time that I started looking for jobs elsewhere. And I actually got an interview as--for a dean of faculty position in, outside of Boston, Massachusetts at a Catholic school called Easton. And it was when Vince was three, and I remember that because he couldn't pronounce Massachusetts. And so I had to, when I left, Angel would tell him that I was going on an airplane to Massachusetts and he would say, Mama, go airpane Ma-chusetts. (laughter). So that was a great experience because I thought, Okay, I'm a relatively new associate dean. It was only a couple years out, and they still wanted to interview me. And the people were really nice, and I didn't get the job, but at least I felt validated, like, Okay, I could do this. And then thankfully there was a dean search, and the dean who came in was Dennis Guzman. And he was--he ended up being the stability that COBA needed. So prior to that, I said Mo stayed for eighteen months. The permanent dean before Mo stayed eighteen months. There had been a bunch of interims. So the, there was a revolving door in the dean's office basically every eighteen months for the first about ten years of Cal State San Marcos's existence. But when Dennis came in, he was a great people person. He really got to know the faculty. They began to trust him. He ended up serving as dean for ten years. He made it his mission the first couple of years to get folks to respect me again and to treat me well. And it worked. I never got my friends back, like Kathleen and I never fully recovered our friendship. We got to at least talk 'cause she wouldn't even talk to me. We got to at least be on speaking terms and be civil and thanks to Dennis. And he also was great because he--Vince was young. And he let me do all of the things that moms can do. I never had to miss any of his things. I could go on field trips, if I needed any time, Dennis would give it to me. And so he let me be a mom to a young child, which was the most important thing to me. So when I first became Associate Dean, Vince was three. And I figured, I'm gonna be--and I was really young at the time--so I was gonna be the youngest everything. I was gonna' be the youngest provost. I was gonna' be the youngest president. I was going all the way before I was forty. And then Vince started kindergarten, and I realized, holy moly, he needs me. And this time is not gonna' come back. And if I miss it, I am gonna' regret it. And we only have the one kid we couldn't have anymore. So like, this is my one shot. And so thankfully Dennis let me do that. And so that's why I stayed on as Associate Dean for thirteen years. And then he decided--so provost came, new provost came in. She was quite something, and they didn't get along. And so he decided to step down. And I thought, Oh God. Because I used to tell him, Dennis, don't leave 'cause I don't want your job. But by the time he stepped down, I had been Associate Dean for like eleven years. So they asked me to be the interim dean. And I thought, all right, I'll give it a shot. And so I was, and found that, you know, I'm a chameleon. I can adapt pretty darn well. 'Cause It's a completely different skillset, associate dean to dean, as you well know. Being the the associate dean, you're the support, you're the details, you're the sounding board, you're all the things. As the dean, you are it. If you don't think of it, it doesn't get done. You need to--and then in COBA, you had to fundraise. There was an advisory board, all of the things. So business, community stuff. So all kinds of stuff I was learning. But I loved, I liked it. I liked it a lot. And so when the fall semester went well, when the spring semester rolled around and the dean search started, I put my hat in the ring. I thought, You know, why the heck not? And the Provost at the time, she said that, you know, I was doing a great job. She loved working with me, I liked working with her. Everything was going great. Dean search happened. And I didn't get the job. And I still remember to this day, it was April 1st, 2012. She called me and told me I didn't get the job. And I cried harder than I had ever cried. 'Cause I gave my heart and soul to this, to the job. And I thought I should have gotten it. People were telling me I should have gotten it. The advisory board was. Everybody was thankfully rallying around me, but, you know, to no avail. 'Cause the person that they picked at the time, and I'm not, I'm not saying anything that anybody doesn't know, she left after two years and gave the provost at the time--so the provost shift, Graham came in, Graham Oberem--gave him two weeks notice. So, she basically came here to get her retirement. But the provost who hired her saw dollar signs because she had come from San Diego State and raised, supposedly raised, thirteen million dollars. And so they thought, oh, she'd come here and do the same. So that didn't work out. And she, you know, I did my best. I swear it wasn't sour grapes or anything like that. I did my best to transition her in and to work with her. But her work style and mine were very different. Like, I'd come in and before 7:00 a.m. there were sixteen emails for me to do stuff. She was having me do spreadsheets left, right, and sideways for absolutely no reason. And so after a year, I thought I can't do this anymore. So I was gonna' go back to faculty, and Graham called me 'cause David Barsky was stepping down as the--it was AVP (Associate Vice President) of faculty--of Academic Programs at the time. And Graham asked me, do you want to do it? And I said, no, I don't, because let's see, David works until midnight, and I don't know what the job entails and, you know, but let me sleep on it. So I did. And Angel and I talked and he said, You know, what have you got to lose? Do it for a year. I said, okay. Twelve--it would've been twelve years today that I stayed in this job. And, you know, turns out that Patricia Prado-Olmos told me this, and it's true. That the COBA dean thing was, you know, the best thing that never happened to me because this gig was really, you know, very well suited to what I like to do, what I like to think I'm good at, and allowed me to work with faculty across the University, which I didn't get to do in COBA. Gave me a really a bigger picture view. Had I decided to go on to be a provost someplace else, it really would've positioned me well for that. And so, you know, looking back, there really has--well, I haven't had a plan for my career. There has been a plan by someone, you know. So I'm a person of faith, so I believe God took care of me somehow. Put me where I was supposed to be when I was supposed to be at each stage of my career. 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:59.000 So tell me what an AVP of Academic Programs does. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:34:55.000 So the evolution of--so started off with basically the catalog maintenance. And back then it was a paper catalog and then shifted to PDF. So the catalog and then the curriculum. So curriculum goes through a bazillion approval steps--new courses, new programs, all the way up to the Chancellor's Office. And so all of those steps really shepherding, shepherding faculty along in their creativity around new courses and new programs to get them through all of the myriad of steps. So the position originally was an AVP and it didn't do--David didn't do accreditation and what else didn't he do? And he did first year programs. So when I took it over, first year programs really wasn't in Academic Programs anymore. Neither was scheduling, which he had for a while. And then after about a year, we had--we were ramping up for our WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) reaffirmation in 2014 at the time. And Sharon Hamill was our campus Accreditation Liaison Officer. And she was a faculty member. We had our visit from the Vice President from WASC, and he recommended that it be an administrator. And so Sharon and I talked, I had, you know, gotten to know the VP from WASC. I was really impressed. And I said, you know, sure, I'll do it. And so that's how the WASC piece came over. Then Academic Affairs reorganized, and we brought in a Vice Provost for the first time. And when that happened, that's when the AVP position became a dean position because they wanted all of the senior leaders in academic affairs to be at the dean level. And so I became Dean of Academic Programs and still doing the accreditation, assessment, curriculum, catalog. So those basic things. Then in 2018, President Haynes called me into our office, and there had been a task force put together to look at advising and infrastructure and organization around academic advising on the campus. And they said that it should be consolidated in one division 'cause It was bifurcated in Student Affairs and Academic Affairs at the time. And they wanted all in Academic Affairs. And Karen--President Haynes--asked me if I would do it. And I said, why me? Academic programs, advising, why? She said, you know, we really think that you can make it work. And so that's how advising, that's how it became Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2019, I think we launched. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Yeah, it's been a long road. 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.000 Yeah, it has been. 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:12.000 Okay. So you've been a faculty member and administrator on campus for 34 years. What has been the evolution at CSUSM? How has it changed? 00:35:12.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Well buildings are nice. (laughter) It still boggles my mind to this day. I will just like stand in Palm Court and look up the stairs 'cause for the longest time, those stairs were there and there was no building. And they were the stairs to nowhere. That's what we would call them 'cause Markstein Hall didn't open, hadn't opened yet. So every single building on campus, I have seen open. I've been in many of them before they were even built, like this building, I got to--I have a rivet from this building. So just basically growing up with the campus was just insane. And it's not, you know, it really exceeded expectations 'cause I certainly hoped that once we decided to stay here 'cause I mentioned we were gonna' be here for two years. After two years and, you know, this weather, we called home and we said, Yeah, we're not going back. And so my parents packed up and moved, and eventually, Angel's family packed up and moved. So once we decided to stay, and I got to, you know, we were at 400 students when I started. We're at what, close to 17,000 now. So just seeing that, and all of the talk in the early years was always about the City of San Marcos, the region needs us 'cause there's gonna be this explosion in the college age population. North County's population is exploding. We need to be here. And they, the City, you know, put its money where its mouth was. The Twin Oaks (Valley Road) has been as it is today, since before there was a campus. So they really were thinking ahead. And so, all of those promises and dreams so many of them came true. And I got to see that. I got to--(weeps) I knew this would happen. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000 It's okay. We very much want you to be as vulnerable as you can. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:38:13.000 And anybody who knows me knows that I cry. So it's okay. But I got to be a part of that. I got to, to build, build this place. And I think, wow, you know, I built it, and then my son came here. So I built it for him, for all of the other students that have graduated. And for all the faculty who have come here. So, you know, if you look for God, did you, did you go someplace where they let you make an impact? Yeah, I did. I did. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that Shoeshine got that letter that day and that I gave it a chance. 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:24.000 Did you always know that you wanted to be an academic or this was something that Shoeshine, like, helped to develop? 00:38:24.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Yeah I, when I was little, I used to play school, and I'd line up my stuffed animals, and I had blue books, and I thought they were the coolest thing in the world, and I would give them little tests. So I guess leaning towards teaching was always a thing for me. But being a professor, no. And in fact, Angel can tell you this, when we, since I met him the day after I started the PhD program, I hated my classes. 'Cause they were very quantitative. I was a psych major. This was not my wheelhouse. And it was a lot more difficult. Like, I had been a really good student my whole life. Even in my undergrad, I got two B's. So school came easy to me. That all ended in grad school. It was not easy anymore. And so I would cry on the phone with him every night that we were talking, Oh, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this program. And so after the first year, I got an internship in HR for a bank. It was called Sun Bank at the time, in Florida, in Miami. And it was on Brickell Avenue, which is a beautiful big office right on the bay. And so I just had an intern job. But I got offered, at the end of the summer, I got offered a permanent job for ten dollars an hour. And I thought, Wow, that's lot of money. This was in 1988. That's a lot of money. Maybe I should drop out of the PhD program since I hate it so much. And I almost did. Oh my God, thank you. I went to my first academic conference at around the same time. And at the conference when I met other PhD students, when I saw faculty presenting on their research, I said, oh, okay. This is what faculty do. It's not these quantitative classes that I hate. So I was able to see the bigger picture. And so at that point, I, and then I started teaching in the PhD program, too. And I thought, okay. I like this. I like this part. Now, being an administrator, never crossed my mind. But being faculty-- 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:37.000 Until you started to be an administrator and then you were going all the way to the top. 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Yep. Then I was gonna' be president. Yep. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:49.000 Okay, I get it. Okay. So can you speak to your highs and lows at CSUSM? You talked about one of the lows. 00:40:49.000 --> 00:43:48.000 Yeah. So highs. This building, Markstein Hall. I was involved from the very, very early stages. I saw, I think I was on the first building committee, the first building design--people might not know this--was a circular building, but then in the CSU that can't work because it's too much wasted space. And then on the inside, so the scrap that, came up with the design, so work from the--work with the architect from the very beginning, as I said, was in this building multiple times as it was going up. And so when it finally opened, this was like my child. So it's funny now that I'm back in here, it's like, oh, I'm, I'm home. I feel completely comfortable. I was like, I picked out this furniture. Fourth floor, all of it, you know, we, the I--the fourth floor, I picked. Dennis, let me pick it. Dennis, let me pick this chair. It is a Coach leather chair in green. It's mine. This, I tell Angel, this is going home with me when I retire. And he says, University property. No, it's my chair. So opening this building was just awesome. The, in this job, well, accreditation, you know. Getting ten years when I didn't know anything about was going into this and was able to put a great team together, work with great people. God bless Melissa Simnett, you know, we were able to pull off a ten-year reaffirmation, which was awesome. Just seeing the growth, that's just been so exciting. My son graduating from here, that was, you know, best day of my life, no doubt. I was able to--I used to, before we got the, it's not an AI reader, it's a--how would you call our, how we do names at graduation now? So it's the computer reads them basically, but it's a human voice. Anyway, before that, it used to be faculty, and I used to coordinate the reading of the names and I would read names. So I got to read his name, and I got to say "my son Vincent Lorente," and my voice cracked just like that. So that was like one of the best days ever. Actually, every graduation is just amazing. And so those are all high points. The last thing I'll say is, you know, working with Academic Advising and getting to know those folks. This team of in Academic Programs that I'm working with now, like the stuff that's been happening recently, that's, that's all been awesome. I've loved it. Low points. I mentioned the one that was the lowest. What was the other one? Yeah, there really haven't been many. There really haven't been many. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.000 Okay. Do you have work that you've accomplished in your career that you think has been the most impactful? Like if you had to name one or two things? 00:43:59.000 --> 00:45:36.000 Curriculog and Acalog. So our curriculum system--curriculum management and our catalog--that's fully online. 'Cause that's, I mean, that's a piece of infrastructure that's gonna' last us. And we, that was entirely. I don't do "me" very much, but that one was me doing the research. Other CSUs, only three were using it at the time. But we had to do something 'cause we had paper forms that we're chasing all around campus. And we tried working with IT to do something that was an early version of DocuSign, but the technology wasn't there yet. And so these companies just started up then that were saying, Hey, we can do it all for you. And so I started researching them and thankfully we chose these folks. And now most of the CSUs uses 'em. And so that, while I don't fool myself into thinking it's gonna last us forever, I'm sure there's gonna be a better mousetrap someday. It has taken us quite far and took us through the pandemic, which if we had not had that, then there is no way. Everything would've ground to a halt. So I think that's had a big impact. This building, this thing's my legacy right here. So those things, and I guess just all the, I haven't counted, maybe I should, all of the program proposals, new programs, all of the things that have gotten approved in the last twelve years while I've been in this job. Like, at least--not a hundred, but about fifty easy. And so so those things. 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:42.000 Great. Can you tell me about the people who have most influenced you in your career? 00:45:42.000 --> 00:50:24.000 Hmm. So going--I mentioned Dennis Guzman, who had been the dean in COBA. So he was a great mentor and a great friend. And he rebuilt my self-esteem such that I could stay on as an administrator and not think that I was the piece of dirt that all of the faculty thought I was at the time. Beverly Anderson. So she was the first permanent dean hired in 1992. And she was, unfortunately, not what the senior faculty at the time wanted. I don't know if there were gender issues then. I was too young and blind to see any of that at the time. But they did not like her. They wanted to get rid of her and made her life miserable. And in fact, they co-opted us junior faculty. 'Cause I was twenty-six, what did I know from anything at the time? These, you know, senior faculty, who had been around forever, different universities were telling me, oh no, this isn't what we need in a dean. So they co-opted all of us and did a vote of no confidence against her. And so she stepped down after eighteen months. And then as I got a little bit older, I had a little bit more experience. After about three years, I realized, Man, that was a mistake. Beverly was good people and she was a good dean. And so I went to her and I said, Beverly, I am so sorry if you could ever forgive me. And so she became a mentor to me. She became a very close friend, and we stay in touch to this day. And she is like the exemplar of what a woman in the academy should be like. She came up in a time when women weren't respected, but yet she kept her head high. And I still remember the things that she told me. Like she said, nobody insults you without your permission. She taught me that careers are cyclical and that they go up, they go down, they go up, they go down. So never when they're down, when you're down, never worry about it 'cause it's gonna' go back up. So she had a huge impact on me. I'd say Karen Haynes, so she was a great mentor to me. She and Pat Worden, who was a VP of Student Affairs for a while, had been all of the things, like she had been Associate Dean in, it wasn't CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences) then, it was COAS, College of Arts and Sciences. Lots of positions on campus. And so she was a mentor to me and she, Karen and wait, yeah, she, Karen and I taught a class on women in leadership. And so that was super exciting. And that's how I got to know President Haynes as a person. And she wasn't just like in name only, she, we team taught that class and she was there. Like, she would come, she would lecture, she would discussion, all of the things. So she was a great influence on me. Kamel Haddad. He was just amazing. He made me better, you know, he just had a way of, you know, he was tough. He was hard to understand sometimes, not verbally, but just, What is it that you want from me? and I can't do it! And he yes, you can. And he taught me. And he was so patient. And so he made me better. Graham. Graham, he came in from the the provost who didn't give me the job. And he treated me fairly. He respected me. He--I guess that was a low time when I didn't get the job, the dean job. But Graham came in and saved the day for me. And so he was, he was definitely a mentor. My super close friend here, Dawn Formo. She and I have been together now for what, thirty years we've been friends. And so I always looked to her for like, what would Dawn do if? 'Cause she always does the right thing. Yeah, I'd say those, those folks. I'm sure there's more. I'm leaving out. Oh, David Barsky, who held the position before me. So he taught me. He spent a whole year training me, and I was thinking, I can't do this, David. I can't do it your way. But he still taught me and he taught me well, and he was always there to answer questions. 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:32.000 So what do you plan to do during retirement? Personally and professionally. Today is your first day of retirement, I will say-- 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000 It is. 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:34.000 --and you're in your office-- 00:50:34.000 --> 00:52:27.000 --and here I am. (laughter) Aye-yai-yai. So I am going to FERP, faculty early retirement. And so as part of that, I need to continue my--funny how I phrase that--I need to continue my work on WASC because the retirement was unexpected. My plan had been 2026 after my sixtieth birthday in September, after we had done our WASC reaffirmation visit, which is in March of 2026. But this VSIP (Voluntary Separation Incentive Program) thing came up, and it was too good to turn down. So I retired now. But leaving this place in a lurch with accreditation wasn't an option for me. And thankfully, the Provost and Vice Provost agreed. And so that's my fac--my FERP assignment is instead of going back to the classroom, I'm going to continue on as the, the WASC ALO and lead us through the accreditation visit. Also, since I'm not being replaced yet, the whole what happens to academic programs and academic advising question is still a very real one. And so I will be a faculty fellow for accreditation and curriculum, which means, kind of have to figure out how much I can do within the constraints of my FERP assignment to kind of keep the boat afloat for a year. So in a lot of ways, nothing has changed but then everything has changed. So I'm just, I'm still trying to figure out in my head what that means. I think at minimum it means that I set my schedule. And that I am the boss of no one for the first time since 1999. And that technically no one is the boss of me, other than my dogs. (Laughter) 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Will you still continue to do professional work with WASC? 00:52:31.000 --> 00:53:56.000 Yes. So I will still serve on teams. So I've been doing that for about ten years now. I got involved with WASC after our visit because I was very impressed with them as an organization, because you think accreditation and it, you think it's about checking a bunch of boxes and oh, you don't do this right. WASC is not that. WASC is all about, you know, maybe it's the California philosophy, I don't know, but it's all about let's try to make you better. Let's get to know you, let's help you be a better version of you. And so that felt really good. And it also felt good to learn about other institutions because since this is the only place I've ever worked in higher ed, you know, that's my, that's a strength and it's a weakness because it's all I knew. And so getting involved in WASC exposed me to all types of institutions, you know, private, not-for-profit, for-profit, all of the things. Big schools, little schools, international schools. They sent me to the Emirates to review a school, I'm going to Ecuador next year. So really, WASC like swung open the door on professional development for me as someone in higher ed. And so I will absolutely love to keep doing that. And in fact, I just did a sub-change review yesterday for a school in Africa, of all places. Didn't go there, obviously. It was Zoom. But yeah, Ecuador in April. 00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:10.000 Very cool. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? Anything that we missed? 00:54:10.000 --> 00:55:17.000 So in my retirement speech, I made a reference to Hamilton," and I read part of George Washington's farewell speech. I won't do that again. But the one thing I didn't say was another quote from Hamilton and it says "legacy is planting seeds in a garden you never get to see." I got to see the garden. So that's pretty cool. And as I said earlier, I'm really grateful for that. Hopefully there's still some flowers that will bloom once I'm gone. But that won't be for another, well, I can FERP for five years. And that's my plan, you know, I think, God, old people retire and I'm not old, you know, fifty-eight, I'll be fifty-nine, but I've got five years now, and so I can see going all the way through five years for sure. Unless and until Vince has a baby. If that happens, then we are Napa bound and I will be raising grandchildren. (laughter) 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:43.000 Very good. Okay. Well thank you. I will say the theme that came across to me the most in this interview is your like, can do, I can do it for a year, I can do it for two years. I could, I can do it for six months. And you've obviously been open to these possibilities, and that is really what has made your career and CSUSM so much better. So thank you so much for interviewing today. Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) 00:55:43.000 --> 01:55:49.000 Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-085 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Regina Eisenbach Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- History California State University San Marcos -- Administration Education, Higher Women in leadership Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Juan (P.R.) 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Title A name given to the resource Eisenbach, Regina. Interview transcript, July 1, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Regina Eisenbach Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- History California State University San Marcos -- Administration Education, Higher Women in leadership Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Juan (P.R.) Miami (Fla.) San Marcos (Calif.) CSUSM history Women's experience