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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Suzy Karasik
Interviewee
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Roberta Estrada
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.xml
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5.4 Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022 SC027-31 0:58:38 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Roberta Estrada Suzy Karasik mp4 EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.mp4 1:|17(8)|25(7)|32(10)|45(2)|57(5)|65(7)|74(11)|89(9)|116(12)|124(8)|137(2)|147(6)|162(3)|171(11)|182(10)|193(7)|206(7)|222(4)|240(10)|257(6)|277(6)|299(4)|309(11)|319(10)|329(10)|340(6)|386(7)|398(9)|420(10)|430(2)|449(4)|463(8)|473(8)|492(1)|506(10)|515(10)|526(15)|548(5)|574(10)|618(12)|634(2)|655(12)|666(2)|674(3)|708(4)|721(4)|734(10)|772(3)|803(4)|817(11)|842(6)|865(12)|890(13)|908(11)|916(11)|928(3)|944(14)|988(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/740a3fad6534f024735fd2e1671bc774.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and school years/ Indigenous identity Roberta Estrada discusses her childhood through college years. She was born into a tight-knit family, and explains that her mother was French and Native American from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA, but went to school in San Marcos, CA. She attended Alvin Dunn School, which is now renamed La Mirada Academy. Estrada explains that at the time, San Marcos did not have a high school district, so she attended Vista’s high school until San Marcos became a city in 1963 in her junior year. She also discusses that while in school, there were many more Hispanic children than there were Indigenous children and does not remember associating with Indigenous classmates at that time. She explains that she became more aware of her Luiseño identity later in life when her mother became involved in Indigenous groups. Estrada then recalls attending college and majoring in Spanish with a general education degree for elementary studies. She also describes her husband’s Pala background, particularly how his family acquired the surname “Estrada.” Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; College ; Hispanic community ; Hispanic people ; Identity ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Pala Band Of Mission Indians ; San Luis Rey Mission ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Spanish language ; Vista (Calif.) 618 Career in education Roberta Estrada discusses the sexism observed in her Indigenous community and in the school systems she taught in. She describes attending college and completing her student teaching in Wisconsin before returning back to Southern California. She explains that she attended Palomar College to complete more training before enrolling at California State University Bernadino and earning a Life Credential for teaching. She taught K-12 in the San Marcos Unified District as a bilingual teacher for thirty-two years. Estrada also discusses other aspects of her career as an educator, such as how members from the San Marcos community became involved in students’ learning and how she incorporated life skills into her curriculum. Finally, Estrada recalls teaching students who immigrated to the U.S. during the Vietnam War. California State University Bernadino ; Education ; Educators ; English language ; ESL ; Gender ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Palomar College ; San Bernardino (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Schools ; Sexism ; Spanish language ; Students ; Vietnam War ; Wisconsin 1276 Basketry Roberta Estrada discusses her involvement in basket-weaving. She explains that she has recently become involved with basketry by joining her cousin, Diania Caudell, on her school group presentation demonstrations. They also provide demonstrations to local universities about native plants. Estrada explains that they utilize processed plants from a company in Huntington Beach, CA for their presentations in order to ensure safety for their school groups. This ensures that are not handling plants that are sprayed with insecticides. Estrada also briefly explains an Indigenous coming-of-age ceremony that boys and girls participate in in the Luiseño culture. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Insecticides ; Luiseño people ; Native plants ; Pesticides ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; School presentations 1732 Family background Roberta Estrada reflects on her Indigenous heritage and on her family’s background. She discusses how her late mother was an elder of their tribe, and how she had always turned to her mother for guidance in learning about their Luiseño culture and extended family. She also explains how she has more recently started learning about her Indigenous culture, traditions, and practices. She discusses current family traditions, such as powwows and other family gatherings. Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2032 Pride in heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on the feeling of proud of her Indigenous heritage. She explains how there are seven Luiseño tribes in the area, and yet, the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe is the only federally unrecognized tribe. Estrada also discusses the San Luis Rey Mission Band’s recent attendance at the proclamation at the City of Oceanside meeting. She explains that this demonstrates that they are becoming more involved and making themselves more recognized in the community. She is excited to see younger San Luis Rey individuals become involved in the community. Community outreach ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2267 Land recognition and governmental involvement Roberta Estrada discusses the topic of land recognition. She explains that land acknowledgement is a much more recent component that has been added to events and presentations, whether in-person or virtual. She also explains how to present a land acknowledgment statement. Estrada also briefly explains the many obstacles that Indigenous tribes have to navigate through in order to be recognized by the U.S. government. Governmental involvment ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous lands ; Indigenous people ; Land acknowledgement ; Land recognition ; Native lands ; U.S. government 2473 Tribe's involvement in North County/ Identity and heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on North County. Specifically, she recalls her friends who operated Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. The ranch’s land was eventually used to build California State University San Marcos. She also discusses how her family’s tribe aided the community and respected the land, such as cooking meals for the community. Estrada also explores the importance of oral history, especially in communities where histories are not recorded. Finally, she reflects on her heritage, explaining that she feels prouder of her Indigenous identity after entering retirement. She explains how she has reconnected with family members and her desire to pass on her heritage to her sons and grandchildren. She also expresses interest in continuing her education in learning the Luiseño language. California State University San Marcos ; Community outreach ; Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oral history ; Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3158 Advice to descendants Roberta Estrada provides advice to her descendants. She describes that she and her husband taught their two sons to live their life as they wish and to respect their elders. She is concerned that respect to one’s ancestors is a custom that is no longer practiced, and hopes that this is a life lesson that will be observed by future generations. Estrada ends the interview by discussing her upcoming basket-weaving presentations. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Descendants ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band Oral history Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. April 6, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part--the best place to start is a little bit of background--where you were born--and let' ; s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I' ; ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in--at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I' ; m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we' ; re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i--wa--well, she' ; s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a--let me think now, what--third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, " ; No, that' ; s too close to Camp Pendleton. I' ; m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we' ; re going to move." ; So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn' ; t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, " ; Met a couple and they said ' ; Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.' ; " ; So, he says, " ; Okay, we' ; ll shift you over there." ; So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then--now it' ; s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to--we didn' ; t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that--the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, " ; We' ; ll get you in there." ; Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that--children--all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it' ; s been-- Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you' ; d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let' ; s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic children, and I don' ; t think I even associated with Native American children being--or picked out children as being--Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don' ; t believe I ever did. And I don' ; t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don' ; t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family--well, his fam--his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American--the last name of Estrada was because that--his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn' ; t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the--the owners of the ranches and that' ; s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in--no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s--their--my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that' ; s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or--well, actually there weren' ; t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k--refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and--or they would be put on--just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim--they ha--the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And-- Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be--the first thing that happened was that my father didn' ; t speak any--well, my mother spoke Spanish and that--because that was--they didn' ; t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn' ; t. So, it was, " ; Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English." ; And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to--and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact--but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and-- Karasik: She would be allowed-- Estrada: She would be allowed-- (nodding) Karasik: --to raise the children. Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission-- Estrada: Yes. Karasik: --Band. Estrada: They were--well, yes. They were married in--at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that' ; s when--shortly after I was--I was probably about late high school when I--when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than--than trying to--to say " ; You' ; re--you' ; re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that." ; She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then--and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft--no, before he passed away. Karasik: I' ; m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it' ; s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren' ; t perhaps quite as-- Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,--When you--If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, " ; Why don' ; t they let her speak. Why don' ; t--Why does he have to talk for her?" ; You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came--I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring--I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The--the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the--for--for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ' ; 70--let' ; s see, ' ; 68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ' ; 68. I--What I had intended in--When I went to college, I went to college at a--what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn' ; t have to pay the extra in--tuition for anything. And when I came--and that was an experience in itself, because the-- I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ' ; cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I--I said, " ; You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I' ; m a California girl." ; I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my--Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to--When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don' ; t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could--I' ; ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don' ; t because I' ; m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I' ; m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, " ; I' ; m a California girl, and I want to come back." ; It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn' ; t feel as comfortable--comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and--not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what--what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a--a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had--I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the--that. So, it just--and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it--were you more free then to say " ; Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations." ; Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I' ; m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson--and I' ; m not bragging--but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey' ; s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn' ; t, you know--you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te--You' ; re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the-- Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: --skills. Life skills. And we-- Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they' ; d learn how to measure. And we would--we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn' ; t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn' ; t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was-- Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were--I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything--I never had any problems with--and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like " ; you want me to tell you exactly what I' ; m going to be doing in every single minute?" ; " ; Yes, we do." ; " ; Okay. So, I' ; ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want." ; (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an--a--a--a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those-- Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: --connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a--at that time they weren' ; t moving out of California. I mean, they weren' ; t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren' ; t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did--yeah. The--in my later years in teaching, then we had the--the children from Vietnam, the chil--you know, that--the immigrants from there. So-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that--integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You' ; re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget--I forget that wasn' ; t their second lan--their first language. And I would--but I--uh, there' ; s just one little--one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the--well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to--well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Karasik: Oh, isn' ; t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her--in her twelve years, you know, she was, um--she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn' ; t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It' ; s a lot easier. Well, I' ; d kind of like to move on to--I mean there' ; s--we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you' ; re a--a basket weaver. I don' ; t know if it' ; s a--if there' ; s certain levels or if you' ; re a professional. Estrada: I' ; m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you' ; re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you--like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in--and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are--I don' ; t even know--they' ; re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty--no, they' ; re 41 and 44. One' ; s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn' ; t really become involved in--as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it' ; s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn' ; t feel like I had enough time. I--I know you were a teacher also. But I--And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, " ; Aren' ; t you done--Aren' ; t you off your job clock yet?" ; Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that' ; s when I' ; ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, " ; Come with me. You' ; re not working today. Come with me. I' ; m going to do a presentation at a school," ; or " ; Come and help me." ; That' ; s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it' ; s a little bit easier and we don' ; t use traditional plants at that time, because you don' ; t know if they' ; ve had any insecticide in them. You don' ; t know if they--you know, how safe or they' ; re going to have a reaction. And that' ; s the last thing you want if you go into a cla--into a group of 50 kids and have to do a--a--a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been doing now. Because we' ; re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools--I mean, Montessori--for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some--Well, we' ; ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it' ; s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the--the schools have been--wa--Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we' ; ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have--we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the--the juncus and the--and the deer grass, and we' ; re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there' ; s so much there. One thing--when you said " ; cane," ; I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It' ; s-- Karasik: Wha-- Estrada: --it' ; s the in--inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it--and it--it comes-- Karasik: Now, who' ; s they. Do you get it--? Estrada: It' ; s from--we get it from a company in--in--in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It' ; s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware--a greenhouse of-- Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it' ; s just safer-- Karasik: It' ; s trusted. Estrada: --to use with it-- Karasik: --a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I-- Karasik: I--yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said " ; Puberty Rock." ; So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an--your ancestors, I mean the-- Estrada: I' ; m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you--there' ; s markings. It' ; s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it' ; s been vandalized and so we' ; ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can' ; t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has--(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose--(laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: --now, so that you can' ; t go near it. But it was--the--Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that' ; s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s--sign that, you know, a-- Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It' ; s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don' ; t know what else. But the girls did, but-- Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset--she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that' ; s it, you know. I never really--before she passed away--never really found out what the " ; it" ; was or the " ; something" ; was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that' ; s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I' ; m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah," ; and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the--considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that' ; s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that' ; s when I would learn more. I' ; d say, " ; I' ; ve seen them before, mom, but I don' ; t really remember." ; She says, " ; Well, when we were at your uncle' ; s house in the valley, that part of his family―" ; And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Karasik: When you say, " ; I' ; ve seen them," ; you' ; re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, " ; Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize." ; And I would stop to think, and I' ; d have to either go up and ask them, " ; Have I met you before?" ; (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would--I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I' ; m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn' ; t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we' ; ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a--a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom' ; s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother--one of my grandfather' ; s brother--had all daughters. I think there' ; s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it--you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand--my paren--my grandfather' ; s fa--family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother' ; s family―I felt like she was a--a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother' ; s kids with this brother' ; s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that' ; s kind of what I' ; m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you' ; d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How--what a beautiful way to honor her. Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband' ; s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it' ; s always " ; I' ; m going to call Roberta, because she' ; ll know." ; Well, if Roberta doesn' ; t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word " ; pride." ; Was―because the--the times have changed now, di--but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I' ; m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe--where is that now, and h--how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more--more pride and feel that it' ; s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it' ; s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we' ; re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, " ; Oh! This is getting good." ; Because now they' ; re becoming more involved. For a while, it' ; s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we' ; re trying to―right now, I' ; m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in--more involved. And so, we' ; re working together and getting those―I couldn' ; t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went--After that, we went to the Inyan--Indian monument that' ; s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There' ; s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel--to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, " ; Well, we' ; d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that." ; Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they' ; ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren' ; t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it--they were not. And now they' ; re, um―they don' ; t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they' ; re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, " ; Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I' ; ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?" ; " ; Mom, I don' ; t think I' ; m quite sure on what to do with this." ; But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: That' ; s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it' ; s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it' ; s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it' ; s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you' ; ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They' ; ll say, " ; We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land." ; We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That' ; s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn' ; t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I--I find that in--in, just when I' ; m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I' ; m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we' ; re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We' ; re on Ku―we' ; re―well, yes. We' ; re not on Kumeyaay land. We' ; re on―we' ; re in between, now. It' ; s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr--tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it' ; s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There' ; s a lot of r--there' ; s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And--and is― Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a--for a period of time. And so, that' ; s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or--or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you' ; ll find if they' ; re doing any activities, you' ; ll find people that are recording that, so they' ; ll have a recording of what' ; s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the--the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we' ; re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was--would be available. Giving―I don' ; t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don' ; t say it' ; s yours if it' ; s not yours. Karasik: So, there' ; s a respect for the origin of it, and then there' ; s also a--a, like you said, a recognition or a--um, yeah. I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking of so many things. I--You said " ; tekua." ; Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It' ; s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who' ; s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They' ; re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They' ; re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there' ; s just so much there. And you' ; ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I--I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What--what are--what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for--for them, and that' ; s why we' ; re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there' ; s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it' ; s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteen-year-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I' ; m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it' ; s important to know that one of the things that--I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don' ; t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we' ; ve lived in North County. But it' ; s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch--Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch--and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there' ; s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, " ; oh, there' ; s probably a whole story there." ; So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they' ; re still here. So that' ; s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they' ; re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was--is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they' ; re--in where they' ; re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there' ; s a lot of orange fencing, because that' ; s all--the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom' ; s aunts worked and--and my mom--I don' ; t think my mom' ; s mother did but--my mom' ; s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I' ; m curious there, because I--I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went--Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather' ; s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would--would go up in that area. His―My grandmother' ; s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that' ; s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother' ; s mother and father, or your--even like your husband' ; s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It' ; s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And--and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It' ; s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that' ; s a lot why we' ; re doing it here. Estrada: That' ; s a big reason why I' ; m very into what' ; s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you' ; ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it' ; s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who' ; s doing this project, is on that land. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is--they are giving back. Estrada: They' ; re sharing. Karasik: Which is--is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this " ; site" ; (gestures air quotes) that we' ; re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) " ; dances" ; inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that' ; s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a--you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you' ; d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It' ; s interesting. When you said " ; dancing." ; So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like " ; American culture?" ; Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do--do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I' ; m thinking there' ; s not very many regrets. It sounds like you' ; ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the--on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband' ; s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, " ; Let' ; s go." ; Okay. I' ; d go and I' ; d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that' ; s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn' ; t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I' ; m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I' ; m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can' ; t even say it. Because we' ; re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in--into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they' ; re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there' ; s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we' ; ll see what happens. But they' ; re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I' ; m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can' ; t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I' ; ve got several little kid' ; s books that I' ; ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don' ; t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s really important. The--it' ; s--I' ; m feeling like in some ways it' ; s full circle. You know. It' ; s coming back full circle, and now a--a--the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it' ; s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, " ; You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group." ; And it ma--it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you' ; re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I' ; m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there' ; s anything else that you' ; d really like to say, but I feel like we' ; ve had a--a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there' ; s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our--your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what--what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don' ; t be so concerned with. Like, what' ; s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that--that honors your--your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, " ; You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults." ; I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to--to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that' ; s fallen away right now. And that' ; s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they' ; ve gone through. I mean, nothing' ; s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it' ; s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it' ; s not a―I guess it' ; s because it' ; s not immediately connected. Maybe that' ; s what it is? I mean " ; in bloodline" ; means nothing. Or how much blood―" ; quantum" ; does not mean anything. It means--what means something--what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that' ; s what we' ; re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that' ; s because of water rights. But the Califor--the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who' ; s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you' ; re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That' ; s beautiful. Who' ; s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we' ; ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don' ; t know if that' ; s possible. And I' ; m certainly wanting to attend and--and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That' ; s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn' ; t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we' ; re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word " ; crone," ; does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It' ; s an elder woman. And I' ; m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is--is very strong. Estrada: It' ; s very strong. Karasik: And that' ; s really so important. And that--I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your--all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro--Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. 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Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
Identifier
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SC027-31
Subject
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Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
Date
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2022-11-03
Format
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video
Creator
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Roberta Estrada
Contributor
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Suzy Karasik
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Roberta Estrada
Type
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Moving image
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/68cc93b349d572359c4680f7c6576237.pdf
742db1a15707b29f357b16addcd6bf62
PDF Text
Text
ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I
am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta
Estrada, thank you for joining me today.
Roberta Estrada: My pleasure.
Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part–the best place to start is a little bit of
background—where you were born—and let’s talk about what was your childhood, like when
you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I’ll give you plenty of time to go over
that.
Estrada: Well, I was born in–at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and
I’m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the
Midwest, and we’re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i–wa–
well, she’s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey
area, and I am actually a—let me think now, what—third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I
went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I
started kindergarten. And my dad says, “No, that’s too close to Camp Pendleton. I’m out of the
Marine Corps now. So, we’re going to move.” So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways
away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten
children in Vista, so I didn’t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista
and my dad says, “Met a couple and they said ‘Oh no, you have to put your child in school in
San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.’” So, he says, “Okay, we’ll shift
you over there.” So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth
grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then—now it’s
changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to—we didn’t have high school in San Marcos. So,
the kids that–the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split
up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista
and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and
so my dad says, “We’ll get you in there.” Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched
back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that–children–all the friends that I had and
been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a
city in 1963.
Karasik: Very interesting.
Estrada: Yes, and it’s been—
Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to
the school that you’d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native
American children there? And let’s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how
you felt that might have been an advantage.
Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy,
very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic
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TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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children, and I don’t think I even associated with Native American children being—or picked out
children as being—Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don’t believe I
ever did. And I don’t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go
to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I
don’t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family—
well, his fam–his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was
the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native
American—the last name of Estrada was because that–his grandfather worked for people whose
name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town,
they had to have a last name. They couldn’t just go by their Native American names. So, they
took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the–the owners
of the ranches and that’s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first
one to get in—no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father
was also Native American. And s–their–my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in
Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we
all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that’s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I
guess you would say, or—well, actually there weren’t a lot of Natives. There were more
Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area.
Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k–refer to people as Natives or as Indians.
Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they
could not claim being Indian or Native American and–or they would be put on—just like on the
opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim–they ha–the
Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And—
Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present
yourself when you were in school or those situations.
Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home.
Estrada: A little bit. Well, be–the first thing that happened was that my father didn’t speak any—
well, my mother spoke Spanish and that–because that was–they didn’t use a lot of the Native
language at the time, and my father didn’t. So, it was, “Speak to the children in English. They
need to learn in English.” And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to—
and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact—but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother
was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest,
and—
Karasik: She would be allowed—
Estrada: She would be allowed— (nodding)
Karasik: —to raise the children.
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Estrada: Yes. She would be.
Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission—
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: —Band.
Estrada: They were—well, yes. They were married in–at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and
that’s when–shortly after I was–I was probably about late high school when I–when my mother
was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others
than–than trying to–to say “You’re–you’re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about
this. You need to do this. You need to do that.” She never really pointed that out to us. I have a
younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the
tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council
first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start
with. And then–and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft–no, before he passed
away.
Karasik: I’m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and
you are now, are women more respected and it’s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did
that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren’t perhaps quite as—
Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,—When you—If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a
majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I
would say that there were times when I would say, “Why don’t they let her speak. Why don’t–
Why does he have to talk for her?” You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I
came—I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the
first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring–I was hired as a bilingual
teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children
in and not being allowed. The–the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the–for–for them.
Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and
look to see if it was okay to answer or not.
Karasik: And what year was this?
Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ’70—let’s see, ’68.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: I came back in ’68. I–What I had intended in–When I went to college, I went to college
at a–what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where
my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn’t have to pay the extra in–
tuition for anything. And when I came—and that was an experience in itself, because the— I
mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where
they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I
was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was
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(chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had
these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ‘cuz it was only two years
after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I–I said, “You know. I like Wisconsin. I like
the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I’m a
California girl.” I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San
Bernardino. And I finished off my—Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from
Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and
get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require.
Then I went to—When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years
and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don’t
have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could—I’ve been retired for thirteen plus years
now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I
don’t because I’m too involved with too many other things.
Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I’m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what
was it like when you said, “I’m a California girl, and I want to come back.” It sounds like a lot of
things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you
noticed how the women didn’t feel as comfortable–comfortable to speak. But what kind of
changes did you see when you came back to the area, and—not even so much what did you see,
but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what–what did you kind
of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life?
Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year
here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they
were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a–a plus. I had a lot
of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had–
I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they
sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire
captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the–that.
So, it just–and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the
moms became more involved because dads had to be working.
Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it–were you more free then to say
“Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations.”
Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I’m going to say it that way. Because I could
make a lesson—and I’m not bragging—but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey’s
candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like
they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn’t, you know—you go
to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te—You’re here to learn is
what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really
instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the—
Karasik: Life skills.
Estrada: —skills. Life skills. And we—
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Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: We made ice cream, so they’d learn how to measure. And we would—we celebrated all
the cultures. You couldn’t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I
incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out
about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped.
Karasik: And there wasn’t a problem with that?
Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was—
Karasik: That you knew of.
Estrada: There were—I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was
observed a lot, and everything—I never had any problems with—and we had to turn in lesson
plans on it. You know, it was just like “you want me to tell you exactly what I’m going to be
doing in every single minute?” “Yes, we do.” “Okay. So, I’ll write down general ones and you
can come in and look any time you want.” (laughs)
Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an–a–a–a plus or an advantage for you
to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including
your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to
feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those—
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: —connections and that made your life a lot more.
Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of
classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a—at that time they weren’t moving out of California.
I mean, they weren’t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed.
Karasik: And people weren’t moving in as much, as well, as they are now.
Estrada: We did–yeah. The–in my later years in teaching, then we had the–the children from
Vietnam, the chil—you know, that–the immigrants from there. So—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: During that Vietnam time.
Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that—integrated them into the class. Or how did
you handle some of that?
Estrada: (laughs) You’re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget–I forget
that wasn’t their second lan–their first language. And I would—but I—uh, there’s just one little–
one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English
when she started. So, we ran the—well, we were already using an ESL program because of going
in to—well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made
such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian.
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Karasik: Oh, isn’t that great!
Estrada: Yeah. So, in her–in her twelve years, you know, she was, um–she just moved right up the
ladder. But it didn’t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some!
(laughs)
Karasik: At a young age, yes.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: It’s a lot easier. Well, I’d kind of like to move on to—I mean there’s—we could talk
about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you’re a–a basket
weaver. I don’t know if it’s a—if there’s certain levels or if you’re a professional.
Estrada: I’m a beginner!
Karasik: Oh, you are? But you’re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell
us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the
Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably.
Estrada: Oh, yes!
Karasik: But when did you—like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later
in your retirement years or was it in—and you were raising children?
Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are—I don’t even know—they’re 43 and 40, I
think, right now. Forty—no, they’re 41 and 44. One’s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say
that I didn’t really become involved in–as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it’s been in
the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn’t feel like I had enough time. I–I know you were a
teacher also. But I–And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used
to tell me, “Aren’t you done—Aren’t you off your job clock yet?” Or something like that would
always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that’s when I’ve really
become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something
more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania
Caudell says, “Come with me. You’re not working today. Come with me. I’m going to do a
presentation at a school,” or “Come and help me.” That’s how it started. And, when we teach in
the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it’s a little bit easier and we don’t use
traditional plants at that time, because you don’t know if they’ve had any insecticide in them. You
don’t know if they—you know, how safe or they’re going to have a reaction. And that’s the last
thing you want if you go into a cla–into a group of 50 kids and have to do a–a–a basket and have
somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a
basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that’s what I’ve been doing now. Because we’re
doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just
finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools—I mean,
Montessori–for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some—Well, we’ve
done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they
were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with
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them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it’s a puberty rock
for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the–the schools have been–wa–Cal
State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with
them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we’ve become involved
with some of her classes too. We also have—we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations
where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit
more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use
the–the juncus and the–and the deer grass, and we’re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school
in San Luis Rey.
Karasik: Oh, there’s so much there. One thing—when you said “cane,” I–I’m–I’m thinking sugar
cane.
Estrada: Oh, no. It’s—
Karasik: Wha—
Estrada: —it’s the in–inside part of bamboo.
Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay.
Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it—and it–it comes—
Karasik: Now, who’s they. Do you get it—?
Estrada: It’s from—we get it from a company in–in–in Huntington Beach.
Karasik: So, it is processed.
Estrada: It’s processed.
Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware–a greenhouse of—
Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there.
Karasik: Uh-huh.
Estrada: Only because, um, it’s just safer—
Karasik: It’s trusted.
Estrada: —to use with it—
Karasik: —a trusted source, yeah.
Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I—
Karasik: I—yeah.
Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs)
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Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said “Puberty
Rock.” So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an—
your ancestors, I mean the—
Estrada: I’m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you—there’s markings. It’s on
Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then
of course, in the modern day, it’s been vandalized and so we’ve worked a lot with different
companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot
of that, because you can’t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses
and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has–(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose—
(laughs)
Karasik: Oh!
Estrada: —now, so that you can’t go near it. But it was–the—Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is
part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that’s
where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s–sign that, you know, a—
Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony.
Estrada: It’s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants,
and I don’t know what else. But the girls did, but—
Karasik: Did you participate?
Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She
reset—she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that’s it, you know. I never
really—before she passed away—never really found out what the “it” was or the “something” was.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And that’s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you―
Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I’m learning so much more about the Native culture and
the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins,
this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little
shoulder sometimes that would say, “Oh, that’s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or
your cousin blah,” and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because
she was the–considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that’s been four years,
a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that’s when I would learn more.
I’d say, “I’ve seen them before, mom, but I don’t really remember.” She says, “Well, when we
were at your uncle’s house in the valley, that part of his family―” And I thought, okay. Those
were the kinds of things that―
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Karasik: When you say, “I’ve seen them,” you’re talking about some of the people that were in
your family.
Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I
mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, “Gee, a lot of
these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize.” And I would stop to think, and I’d
have to either go up and ask them, “Have I met you before?” (laughs) Or something like that. So
that I would be able to make a connection.
Karasik: Mmm.
Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before.
Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your
parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down
from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was
more advantageous to be Latin or―
Estrada: Mexican.
Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would–I would love to have known more of the
rituals or some of the ceremonies.
Estrada: I’m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But
then―I say we didn’t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way,
we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we’ve had a powwow
the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we
would be gathering at a–a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in
Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um,
because there were eleven in my mom’s family, and then their kids and down through that, so―
And then, besides the other brothers. One brother–one of my grandfather’s brother—had all
daughters. I think there’s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven.
So that they―it–you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and
then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists)
My grand–my paren–my grandfather’s fa–family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the
in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my
mother’s family―I felt like she was a–a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this
brother’s kids with this brother’s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the
center). And that’s kind of what I’m doing now.
Karasik: Interesting.
Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you’d say.
Karasik: Of your mother. How–what a beautiful way to honor her.
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Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband’s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto
area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it’s always “I’m going
to call Roberta, because she’ll know.” Well, if Roberta doesn’t know, she tries to figure it out
and find out who it is, you know, make a connection.
Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word “pride.” Was―because the–the
times have changed now, di–but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain
pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about,
like where you said it was easier to say I’m Mexican.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And, um, whe–where is that now, and h–how has that changed over the years? And do
you feel much more–more pride and feel that it’s more important? Or―
Estrada: I think it’s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San
Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done.
But I think we’re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are
recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from
the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City
Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, “Oh! This is getting good.” Because now
they’re becoming more involved. For a while, it’s always the same group. And that group is
getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we’re trying to―right now, I’m
working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the
thirty-and-unders people, to get in–more involved. And so, we’re working together and getting
those―I couldn’t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And
then at the―We went–After that, we went to the Inyan–Indian monument that’s in San Luis Rey
Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There’s an Indian monument, and we had quite a
large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts,
and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel–to feel that so many of
these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, “Well, we’d like to know more about
this. Or maybe learn about that.” Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys―
Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they’ve claimed their culture.
Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with.
Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren’t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles)
Estrada: No. And it–they were not. And now they’re, um―they don’t live in the area. They both
live in Arizona now. But they’re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though.
And they will want, say, “Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I’ll come for
powwow. Are we going to have it?” “Mom, I don’t think I’m quite sure on what to do with this.”
But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles)
Karasik: Yes.
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Estrada: That’s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So―
Karasik: Yeah. I think it’s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it’s been
sort of not in fashion―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it’s very much in fashion.
Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you’ll hear that
when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They’ll say, “We want to
acknowledge that we are on Native land.” We want to―
Karasik: Absolutely.
Estrada: ―you know. That’s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you
didn’t see that before.
Karasik: Absolutely. I–I find that in–in, just when I’m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I
put what city I’m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be―
Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we’re on (gestures quotes with her fingers)
Karasik: Kume―
Estrada: ―Native land. We’re on Ku―we’re―well, yes. We’re not on Kumeyaay land. We’re
on―we’re in between, now. It’s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area.
Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes―
Estrada: Seven tribes.
Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from
the government or from the tr–tribe itself?
Estrada: Government.
Karasik: From the government.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it’s some kind of a governmental
requirements to―
Estrada: Yeah. There’s a lot of r–there’s a lot of red tape, you may as well say―
Karasik: Right, right.
Estrada: ―that you have to jump through.
Karasik: And–and is―
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Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a–for a period of time. And so,
that’s one of the things.
Karasik: Of being like a sovereign―
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: ―nation or–or―
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: You know.
Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you’ll find if they’re doing any
activities, you’ll find people that are recording that, so they’ll have a recording of what’s going
on now. And―
Karasik: Documentation―
Estrada: ―documentation of all of that.
Karasik: ―every―Right.
Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things
with the–the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we’re from.
Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on
Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a
Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was–would be
available. Giving―I don’t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where
everything came from. You don’t say it’s yours if it’s not yours.
Karasik: So, there’s a respect for the origin of it, and then there’s also a–a, like you said, a
recognition or a–um, yeah. I–I’m–I’m thinking of so many things. I–You said “tekua.” Is that
some organization, or what―
Estrada: It’s the Cherokee, Cherokee band.
Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who’s that umbrella?
Estrada: Cherokee.
Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath―
Estrada: Yeah. They’re part of the Cherokee.
Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they―
Estrada: No. They’re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area.
Karasik: Oh, right. Okay.
Estrada: In that area.
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Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there’s just so much there. And you’ve really been wonderful to kind of
branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I–I want you to tell me
how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What–what are–what kinds
of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for–for them, and
that’s why we’re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your
accomplishments, if there’s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life
path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more
involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story.
Estrada: Well, it’s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteenyear-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time.
And so, yes, I’m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children
know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having
the pride, not hiding yourself. And it’s important to know that one of the things that—I mean,
San Marcos―I have to say. I don’t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did
after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then
Vista. So, we’ve lived in North County. But it’s always had a place in my heart. And the people
are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with
people from the egg ranch—Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch—and just having, you know, and like all
those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a
big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there’s more to it than Minecraft on
the computer.
Karasik: Uh, absolutely.
Estrada: And so―
Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, “oh, there’s probably a whole story there.” So,
some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they’re still here. So that’s―
Estrada: (shakes her head).
Karasik: Oh, they’re not. Oh.
Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was–is built―
Karasik: On―
Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch.
Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that?
Estrada: It was hard at first.
Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well―
Estrada: Um, probably.
Karasik: ―that we know of?
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Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High
School, they’re–in where they’re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of
orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there’s a lot of orange fencing, because
that’s all—the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom’s aunts worked
and–and my mom—I don’t think my mom’s mother did but—my mom’s aunts were in a lot of
those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or
working in these areas.
Karasik: Yeah. I’m curious there, because I–I know back, you know, pre-modern technology,
they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods
and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then
sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or―
Estrada: Ours went–Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up
in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather’s father was a sheep
herder.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: And he would–would go up in that area. His―My grandmother’s brothers were miners
and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way.
San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the
opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with
her hands) and diverse themselves, and that’s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming
and into construction and things like that.
Karasik: So, you heard about your mother’s mother and father, or your–even like your husband’s
parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel―
Estrada: It’s all oral story.
Karasik: Yeah. And–and so that oral history, you―
Estrada: Is important.
Karasik: ―Absolutely.
Estrada: It’s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now.
Karasik: And that’s a lot why we’re doing it here.
Estrada: That’s a big reason why I’m very into what’s going on right now. Yes.
Karasik: And I think you’ve done a fantastic job.
Estrada: Oh.
Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it’s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who’s
doing this project, is on that land.
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Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: So, in a way, it is–they are giving back.
Estrada: They’re sharing.
Karasik: Which is–is really good.
Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this “site” (gestures air quotes) that we’re in today
was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria.
Karasik: This specific building?
Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her
hands) “dances” inside this building. We did our choir from the stage.
Karasik: This stage?
Estrada: This stage. The only thing that’s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen
connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a–you could be a
cafeteria helper.
Karasik: Sure.
Estrada: And, um, you’d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it―
Karasik: It’s interesting. When you said “dancing.” So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing,
was it more like “American culture?” Or was―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: It was.
Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do–do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all.
Karasik: Okay.
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story.
Estrada: (laughs)
Karasik: Um, so, I’m thinking there’s not very many regrets. It sounds like you’ve really had a
wonderful life.
Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even
more proud of my heritage.
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: And then the–on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family
members and my husband’s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could
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intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I
really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I
first started, Diania would say, “Let’s go.” Okay. I’d go and I’d stand in the background. Well, I
listened a lot. Well, that’s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather
sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn’t speak English
and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was
one of the influential people, I’m learning, that second language that was so important in this
area. But, um, now I’m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I
can’t even say it. Because we’re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west.
And so, it goes all along the western coast and in–into the mountain.
Karasik: And is there anyone still around―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to teach some of that?
Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes.
Karasik: So―
Estrada: Right now, they’re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young
people. But there’s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we’ll see what happens.
But they’re doing them on Zoom right now.
Karasik: You―
Estrada: Because you need to hear it.
Karasik: I’m sure, yes.
Estrada: You need to hear it. You can’t do it from the book―
Karasik: You have to―
Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I’ve got several little kid’s books that I’ve gotten from my
grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes,
you can do it that way, but you still don’t hear the correct pronunciation.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s really important. The–it’s–I’m feeling like in some ways it’s full circle.
You know. It’s coming back full circle, and now a–a–the pride is really more known amongst―
Estrada: I think it’s more evident now and you can feel it.
Karasik: And even outside of your culture.
Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at
the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture,
about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people
and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so―
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Karasik: That must feel wonderful.
Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the
Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, “You know, I really feel very proud to be part of
this group.” And it ma–it makes you feel like―
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: ―you’re doing something good.
Karasik: Absolutely. I’m so happy for you.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there’s anything else that you’d really like
to say, but I feel like we’ve had a–a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: But if you―you know, there’s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil.
Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they
could have, you know, tell―
Estrada: Conversations.
Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our–your descendants had the opportunity to
talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them―
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: ―what–what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should
really pay attention to, and the things that don’t be so concerned with. Like, what’s the most
important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that–
that honors your–your history, your heritage.
Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, “You need to
live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults.” I mean, as
we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to–to them.
Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that’s fallen away right now. And
that’s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors.
Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the
importance of the lives of people that have been and what they’ve gone through. I mean,
nothing’s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter
where it comes from, it’s important that they pick it up.
Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed
back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities―
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Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and
nephews, are really into it. But it’s not a―I guess it’s because it’s not immediately connected.
Maybe that’s what it is? I mean “in bloodline” means nothing. Or how much blood―”quantum”
does not mean anything. It means–what means something–what should mean something to them
is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that’s
what we’re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California
recognition, and basically that’s because of water rights. But the Califor–the federally recognized
tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who’s doing the work? Just keep plugging
along and making sure that you’re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family.
Karasik: That’s beautiful. Who’s doing the work.
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop―
Estrada: Okay.
Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we’ll see what happens with the archives, and what
else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class.
I don’t know if that’s possible. And I’m certainly wanting to attend and–and learn more, but―
Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That’s basket weaving.
Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that?
Estrada: (nods)
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: Yes, it is.
Karasik: Oh, and we didn’t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be
Native American―
Estrada: Native American month.
Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we’re celebrating and honoring it.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here.
Estrada: Oh, thank you.
Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word “crone,” does that come from
your culture?
Estrada: The what?
Karasik: Crone?
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Estrada: No.
Karasik: Okay. It’s an elder woman. And I’m not really sure where it comes from. I think it
might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is–is very strong.
Estrada: It’s very strong.
Karasik: And that’s really so important. And that–I think what the children―which you have
shown in your family and with all your–all your relations.
Karasik: Omitaki.
Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much.
Estrada: And thank you for having me.
Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage
Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro–Oral History program.
Estrada: Oral history.
Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much!
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GLOSSARY
Alvin Dunn School (pg.1)
Cardiff (pg.9)
Caudell, Diania (pg.6)
Chamteela (pg.16)
Creek Project (pg.14)
Dia de Los Muertos (pg.9)
Duenos (pg.2)
Foussat (pg.2)
Frybread (pg. 11)
Indian Rock Road (pg.8)
Kumeyaay (pg.11)
La Mirada Academy (pg.1)
Life Credential (pg.4)
Luseño (pg.10)
Marine Corps Hospital (pg.1)
Mel (pg.17)
Moro Hill (pg.8)
Normal School (pg.4)
Omitaki (pg.19)
Pala (pg.2)
Palomar (pg.4)
Pamu (pg.9)
Pauma (pg.9)
Payómkawichum (pg.16)
Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch (pg.13)
San Jacinto (pg.10)
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San Luis Rey Mission (pg.2)
San Marcos High School (pg.14)
Tekua (pg.12)
Tribal Council (pg.3)
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�
Dublin Core
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Transcripts
Description
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Title
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Estrada, Roberta. Interview Transcript. November 3. 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Roberta Estrada
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Suzy Karasik
Melissa Martin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-03
Subject
The topic of the resource
Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a>
Rights Holder
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Roberta Estrada
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Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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Suzy Karasik
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Carol Graham
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5.4 Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022 SC027-028 0:57:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County ; Gardening -- California -- San Diego County ; Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control ; Organic farming ; University of California (System). Cooperative Extension ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; North San Diego County Carol Graham Suzy Karasik mp4 GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.mp4 1:|19(7)|31(3)|64(8)|98(15)|120(17)|143(6)|160(4)|192(7)|213(5)|238(9)|260(11)|278(6)|297(5)|311(5)|330(12)|351(7)|366(12)|378(16)|390(5)|408(9)|438(13)|468(11)|512(9)|545(9)|557(6)|597(15)|620(5)|661(5)|683(7)|704(6)|717(9)|742(5)|780(10)|797(11)|815(3)|832(12)|867(6)|885(8)|899(7)|931(11)|955(12)|972(13)|998(9)|1017(14)|1037(14)|1065(8)|1083(12)|1105(3)|1119(17)|1143(8)|1171(12)|1189(6)|1231(11)|1265(7)|1300(13)|1333(10)|1364(10)|1423(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/fbbe71e14ed9626f02df6a69bc6e6491.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and introduction to gardening Carol Graham recalls her childhood in San Diego, CA. Graham was born in North Claremont and explains that her mother introduced her to gardening. She explains that her mother planted fruit trees in their garden, and her experience gardening with her mother gave her the necessary tools to plant similar fruit trees in her current home in Encinitas, CA. She also briefly discusses her father’s career as Marine, which led their family to moving to Virginia for three years. Encinitas (Calif.) ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines ; Virginia 0 191 College education/ Background in insects Carol Graham discusses her college education at San Diego State University. She earned a Bachelor’s degree in Zoology. She explains that she has always had an interest in animals and insects. She provides scientific background on the lady beetle and the mosquito to the interviewer, and explains the gardening and pest management education she provides to the community as a Master Gardener. She explains that many people are afraid of pests, or believe them to be harmful to plants and crops, and spray them with pesticides or kill them. Graham had also brought a few puppets to the interview, which she uses for a demonstration while discussing insects and pest management to the interviewer. Gardening ; Insects ; Lady beetles ; Master Gardeners ; Mosquitos ; Pest management ; San Diego State University ; Zoology 0 436 Four stages of pest management/ Pesticides Carol Graham describes the four stages of Integrated Pest Management: Identify, Understand, Assess, and Control. She also discusses the topic of pesticides. She explains that pesticides are the most toxic form of pest management, and Master Gardeners encourage others to try other forms of pest management first, such as cultural, physical, and biological approaches. Additionally, she provides other pieces of advice, such as purchasing pesticides that do not harm edible plants and containing the use of pesticides to only one area of a garden to prevent the spread of toxic chemicals. Graham had brought an Integrated Pest Management poster board to the interview, which she uses for the pest management demonstration portion of the interview. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Pest management ; Pesticides 0 959 Career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One Carol Graham discusses her career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. She began working there a year after earning her Bachelor’s degree from San Diego State University in Zoology. She describes her work in decreasing the amount of shut downs at the onsite Nuclear Generating Station during the winter, which saved the company money. She explains that every eight weeks, the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down in order to heat-treat and chemical treat the water intake system and kill the biophaline. She describes her work of measuring the biophaline and proving that they were growing slower during the wintertime, which resulted in fewer shut downs. She also briefly explains gender equality at the Plant, working alongside her husband, and the equipment utilized in her work. Additionally, she reflects on the topic of nuclear power and explains that she would like to see the country move more into clean energy. Biology ; Biophaline ; Chemical-treating ; Clean energy ; Environmentalism ; Heat-treating ; Nuclear power ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One ; Zoology 0 1437 Family background Carol Graham discusses her family’s background. She and her late husband moved to Encinitas, CA over forty years ago. She and her husband had one son together. Her son earned a PhD in astrophysics from Johns Hopkins. Graham also explains her family’s genealogy, with her parents having been born in Minnesota and Ohio, but previous generations originally came from Ireland and England. Her father, as a career Marine, was stationed at Camp Pendleton. Her in-laws, additionally, were originally from Missouri and Scotland. Her father-in-law’s work in the aircraft industry brought him to San Diego, CA. Aircraft industry ; Astrophysics ; Baltimore (Md.) ; Camp Pendleton ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; England ; Genealogy ; Germany ; Ireland ; Johns Hopkins University ; Kansas City (Mo.) ; Kirkcaldy (Scotland) ; Minneapolis (MN) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Ohio ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines 0 1654 Involvement with the Master Gardeners Carol Graham describes how she became involved with the Master Gardeners. After San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One shut down, she enrolled in the Master Gardener volunteer program through the University of California Cooperative Extension in 1983. Graham explains that the Master Gardener program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally responsible home and garden. Graham also discusses the importance of researching one’s own microclimate. Education in the microclimate of one’s area will aid in the understanding of which plants will be best suited for different microclimates. This will be beneficial to the healthy growth of plants and trees in one’s garden. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Microclimate ; University of California Cooperative Extension 0 1978 Accomplishments/ California drought Carol Graham reflects on her accomplishments, including having the opportunity to help many people through the Master Gardeners program and educating the community about growing their own food. She also discusses other topics related to gardening and the environment, such as edible flowers, the California drought, and drought-tolerant plants. Drought ; Drought tolerant plants ; Edible flowers ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County (Calif.) 0 2442 Development of Encinitas, CA/ Catching gophers Carol Graham reflects on how she has seen Encinitas, CA develop over time. She comments that the number of local grocery markets has increased since she and her husband first moved to Encinitas. She also discusses other characteristics of the town and of North County, such as its farmers markets, community gardens, and container gardening. Graham also recounts her relationship with her neighbors in Encinitas, and how she has been labelled as the “gopher getter” because she has caught many gophers in the neighborhood. Community ; Community gardens ; Container gardening ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Farmers markets ; Gardening ; Gophers ; Neighborhood ; Pest management ; The California Rare Fruit Growers 0 2831 Establishment of the Master Gardeners program Carol Graham elaborates on her work with the Master Gardeners program. She explains that the program is a branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. Their branch is operated through the County Operations Center in Kearny Mesa, CA. She explains the method and funding behind their research in the program. Graham also explains the origins of the establishment of the program in Washington state by an extension agent who decided to train volunteers gardeners to assist home gardeners with their gardening questions. The program now exists in all fifty states in the U.S. County Operations Center ; Gardening ; Kearny Mesa (Calif.) ; Master Gardeners ; University of California Cooperative Extension ; Volunteer ; Washington 0 2965 Composting Carol Graham discusses composting. She provides recommendations for food items to not include in a compost pile which could create odor or attract animals into one’s garden. She also discusses vermicompost, which is a form of composting that relies on earthworms, and explains how to create a successful vermicompost. Graham also dispels common misconceptions about earthworms. Finally, she discusses local companies and organizations that aid the community in environmental matters, such as Miramar and Carlsbad’s desalinization plants, and the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation, which provides started compost kits to the community. Carlsbad (Calif.) ; Compost kits ; Composting ; Desalinization plants ; Earthworms ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; The Carlsbad Desalinization Plant ; The Solana Center for Environmental Innovation ; Vermicompost 0 Oral history Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed--gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats--I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or-- Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated--not that many months ago--my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County--well, you were actually down in San Diego-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented--not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the same fruit trees waiting for us-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and-- Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology-- Karasik: Mmm. Graham: --because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um-- Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on--well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So-- Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: --the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for—is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other water-containing items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: --uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days-- Granham: Okay. Karasik: --so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify--(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy--(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating-- Karasik: That’s their sustenance. Graham: --the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we-- Karasik: Yeah. Graham: --protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches--biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits--peach, nectarines, plums, apricot--'cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) --and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach ; mechanical and physical--I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants ; biological--reloos–reducing–releasing--excuse me--lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide ; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily--very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles--fruits and vegetables--and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time--if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had-- Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors--the teachers, the staff, chaperones, and parents--about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe--I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something--and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s-- Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi-- Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt-- Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s--I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um-- Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy--but nuclear was considered clean-- Karasik: Right. Graham: --and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you--is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a--I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but-- Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY--Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --coal at the time to generate that energy-- Karasik: Exactly. Graham: --when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a--what is that, in Maryland, the institution-- Karasik: In Annapolis, or?-- Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s-- Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha--How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because-- Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just-- Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had-- Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about--I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d--(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of--I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine--and it came out--it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So-- Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you--So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you--you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st-- Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So-- Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: --not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever--huh--there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. Karasik: And so I think we could probably-- Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: --turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit--a peach or nectarine--and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the--being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this--Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine--that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut--what is that—$12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um--I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my--And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe-- Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh-- Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned--less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than--it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or-- Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to-- Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. Karasik: Right. Graham: So-- Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so--I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And-- Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour--excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago-- Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or-- Graham: I actually--way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me--who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been-- Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression--container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you--(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere--do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they--maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a-- Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that--bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to--you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And-- Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and-- Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not-- Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or-- Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people--I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular-- Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to--because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just-- Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip--I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin--the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a-- Karasik: What is that? Graham: --it’s more like a chemical-- Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: --that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s how-- Graham: --but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re--actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
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Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides.
Identifier
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SC027-028
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control
Gardening -- California -- San Diego County
Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County
Organic farming
San Diego State University
San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.)
University of California (System). Cooperative Extension
Date
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2022-11-04
Format
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video
Creator
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Carol Graham
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Suzy Karasik
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Encinitas (Calif.)
San Diego North County (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Carol Graham
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2caac1a8cfc3ca29c2de994f0935e8bb.pdf
86bdb8529b42a059d7ccb366fdf0c96c
PDF Text
Text
April 26, 2023
Transcript
Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am
interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn
here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today.
(coughs)
Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure.
Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we
had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to
everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an
incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind
her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a
little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging
below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where
you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in
your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your
relationship with the county. So, you can start there.
Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very
avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to
Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means
the fruit trees that I enjoyed—gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain
varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats—I could grow those same varieties here
which was nice.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in.
Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or—
Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952.
Karasik: Okay.
Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated—not that many months ago—my 70th birthday.
Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North
County—well, you were actually down in San Diego—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —as you were growing up.
Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego.
1
�Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I
graduated from high school in Virginia.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented—not sold. So,
we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the
garden—
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: —the same fruit trees waiting for us—
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: —the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very
supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today.
Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and—
Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology—
Karasik: Mmm.
Graham: —because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many
people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But
I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy
puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um—
Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit.
Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on—well, most people recognize this
as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on
her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more
scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It
comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left
hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better
name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal,
which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So—
Karasik: I did not know that!
Graham: —the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro
alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and
inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes
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�the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard
behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header
“Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for—
is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy)
and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea
it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know
what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they
taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval
stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy.
And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which
has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species
‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted
right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her,
then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.).
And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character.
Karasik: Ugh.
Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds
up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a
way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think
we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually
has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the
part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our
residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had
pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those
people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately,
3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them.
And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other watercontaining items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother
mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have
displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take
the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and
bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and
over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re
growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump
it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is.
3
�Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it
is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these
four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk
more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to—
Graham: Okay.
Karasik: —uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early
days—
Granham: Okay.
Karasik: —so we’ll come back.
Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest
Management, as I said, is Identify—(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and
admittedly some of these friends do look creepy—(points to photographs under the subheading
“Friends” on that posterboard)
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under
the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board,
which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of
the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my
head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the
year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it
looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of
a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology,
it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on
(stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand
relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with
black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the
photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.”
So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what
goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking
the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's
called “honeydew.”
Karasik: (chuckles)
Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which
will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see
the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the
ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating—
Karasik: That’s their sustenance.
4
�Graham: —the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we—
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: —protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk
them and benefit from them.
Karasik: Right, right.
Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to
multiple control approaches—biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity
there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text
with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth
larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave.
They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in
your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem?
Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they
interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of
insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can
label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the
board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage
overripe soft fruits—peach, nectarines, plums, apricot—‘cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the
grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles,
helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although,
it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I
try and teach people how to tell the difference—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a
pyramid illustration) —and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign
approach; mechanical and physical—I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics
pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants;
biological—reloos–reducing–releasing—excuse me—lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle
larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide; to chemical (points to the
top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there
(waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into
your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating
totality) kind of reviews them all.
Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here
just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods)
Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful
background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points
to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity
because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to
5
�come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management
than we do now.
Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most
toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the
chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in
combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical.
You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully,
you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum
pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the
whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container
and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there
that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you
were trying to control.
Karasik: Right.
Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily—very
undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and
follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you
read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it
okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of
the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles—fruits and vegetables—and will
mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to
put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating
them when you’re eating the produce from that plant.
Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example,
of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m
wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate
specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly?
Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds
to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider
the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time—if we can teach them about biological control,
physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where
they’re considering a chemical pesticide.
Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who
all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had—
Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school
gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors—the teachers,
6
�the staff, chaperones, and parents—about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to
pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put
this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But
instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off.
Karasik: How–huh–who knew!
Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It
tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they
actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab
the chemical control approach.
Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life
tha–developed, how you met your husband.
Graham: Okay.
Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that.
Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science
in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching
aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting.
He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a
biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San
Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut
down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the
water intake system, because they had a large pipe—I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or
something—and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system
at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in
barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this
of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating,
you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems.
So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the
plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing.
Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an
hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San
Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch
would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power
was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay
a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed
pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were
we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the
year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring
7
�the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was
the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for
a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing
slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the
end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful
study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because
they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long
run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although
now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was
decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant.
Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s—
Graham: It was much slower.
Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing.
Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San
Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had
more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster.
Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre.
Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer.
Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles)
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: I’m curi—
Graham: There were three of us in the trailer.
Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did
you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected?
Graham: No. I was given full respect.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into
that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you
went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every
three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then
we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research
8
�trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research
day.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt—
Karasik: And was your pay equal?
Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Oh, that’s—I’m really happy to hear that.
Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator.
Karasik: Correct.
Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the
same work I was doing.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work
with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must
have been–been really great.
Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course.
Karasik: Right.
Graham: Backyard gardening, etc.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared
to burning coal.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And, um—
Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear
discussion.
Graham: Well, now it’s shut down.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive
remnants.
Karasik: Yes.
9
�Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy—but nuclear was
considered clean—
Karasik: Right.
Graham: —and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the
environment.
Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out
quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how
close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you—is that
a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that?
Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that
material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a—I’ve forgotten the exact
location.
Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know.
Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but—
Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY—Not In My Backyard.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I
think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at
this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that
be great, hopefully.
Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more—
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: —coal at the time to generate that energy—
Karasik: Exactly.
Graham: —when we were using.
Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San
Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me
a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents,
and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County.
Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it
was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was
staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still
lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the
Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which
10
�we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists
go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically
from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually,
his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his
Ph.D. at a–a—what is that, in Maryland, the institution?—
Karasik: In Annapolis, or?—
Graham: People think first of the medical aspect.
Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that.
Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD.
Karasik: Mmm.
Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics.
Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic]
Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry.
Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great.
Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic]
Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah.
Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes.
Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: So, you had just the one son?
Graham: Just the one son.
Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what
generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t
really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know
about both yours and your husband’s?
Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio.
Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and
Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is,
you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s—
Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border.
Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
11
�Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland.
Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —with his wife? Do you know?
Graham: No.
Karasik: Or did he meet her here?
Graham: He married her here.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything
about that journey?
Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite
active at one time in San Diego.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at
Camp Pendleton and—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —some other facilities in southern California.
Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History.
Graham: Oh! Good.
Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s
work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did
you get more involved tha—How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go
there.
Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t
depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master
Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were
expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I
would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of
California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated
12
�to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening.
But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive
Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because—
Karasik: Thank you, mother!
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just—
Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been?
Graham: He was born in 1982.
Karasik: Mmm, so you had—
Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program.
Karasik: Oh. Wonderful.
Graham: He was just a year old.
Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just
tell me more about—I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that
come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives
were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d—(Carol looks again off
camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know.
Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people
who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where
you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener
exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if
you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the
western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map
and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell
them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow
in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a
Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties,
and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted
to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.”
And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of—I’ve forgotten
whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine—and it came out—it was supposed to be okay for
zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year,
the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I
dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like
13
�this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve
changed what they’ve recommended.”
Karasik: Right.
Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t
want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your
microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals.
Karasik: That is so important. So—
Graham: Especially with water being super critical now.
Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations,
uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you—So, was your husband involved in the Master
Gardeners too? Or then did you—you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son.
Graham: Right.
Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his
work? Did he st—
Graham: My–my husband’s work?
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there
were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you
experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the
garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time
period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it
was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me.
(chuckles) So—
Karasik: That’s so wonderful.
Graham: —not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master
Gardener.
Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever—huh—there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted
woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle)
Graham: Right.
14
�Karasik: And so I think we could probably—
Graham: (nodding her head) Yes.
Karasik: —turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest
accompish–accomplishments in your life?
Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel
good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So
when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that
lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s
a fruit—a peach or nectarine—and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly
understand where their food comes from.
Karasik: (whispers) Yes.
Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so
much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their
garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or
litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s
where your food comes from!
Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of
people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently
got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be
moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want
to mention because of the—being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the
large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this—Do you feel like you’ve had a
little place in there where you’ve been able to—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —educate.
Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and
nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that
my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine—that’s the one we really adore. And
some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like
the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites
by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut—what is that—
$12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow
them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the
air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the
specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
15
�Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um—I don’t know if it was his birthday,
or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia.
Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in
the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn
more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume.
Graham: Mm-hmm. Good.
Karasik: That’s my—And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that
are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example.
Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I
haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits.
Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe—
Graham: And–and thornless blackberries!
Karasik: Oh!
Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious
but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize
prickliness of thorns)
Karasik: Really!
Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there.
Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that!
Graham: So, yes. Triple crown.
Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear
these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly
the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right
now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern?
Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third
year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can
put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles?
Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put
your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market.
Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very
nutritious—
Graham: Yeah.
Karasik: —for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and
Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you,
16
�because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s
anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for
future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just
around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years,
what–what you think is most important that, uh—
Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned—less lawn, and more
drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have
a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to
have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to
take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book.
And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use
plants.
Karasik: Drought tolerant.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful
and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start.
Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than—it sounds like
you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here.
What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that
by chance? Or—
Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died.
Karasik: Yes. If you want to—
Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m
spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and
prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat
chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how
much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of
going out for Master Gardener exhibits.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now.
17
�Karasik: Right.
Graham: So—
Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so—I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that
is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And—
Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end.
Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important.
Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented.
So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that
might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been
unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this
area changed since you moved here? And that’s—
Graham: Yeah.
Karasik: ―a big one.
Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas
because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And
there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it
made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my
consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in
an hour—excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my
community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and
checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And
Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years
ago—
Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores.
Graham: Nice diversity.
Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and
the largest diversity of what is offered.
Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets.
Karasik: We do.
Graham: Two of them in Encinitas.
Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those
farmers? Or—
Graham: I actually—way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me.—who founded the
first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare
18
�Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades.
And the idea took off and it was great.
Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference,
obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck
farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm
and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the
way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been—
Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t
know how many decades here.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that,
and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that?
Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage
Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and
they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider
possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression—
container gardening! (laughs)
Karasik: Right.
Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless
varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative
pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on
your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a
yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you
for your advice? Or how do you—(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking
you for some advice, for sure.
Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers.
Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five
were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured
gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of
the year, for some reason.
19
�Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere—do you think that the drought
had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they—maybe
they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why?
Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: It was just a—
Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them.
Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture
with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps.
Karasik: Oh.
Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps
you’d use are kill traps for gophers.
Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary.
Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that
University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In
irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they
said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number
of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I
trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she
happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me.
And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that—
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Graham: And the first four months of the year that—bing–bing–bing.
Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to—you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California
San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a
little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And—
Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of
California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have
thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center
in Corina Mesa.
Karasik: Mmm.
20
�Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the
state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to
more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax
money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural
economy in California.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are
spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So
we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the
Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted
cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home
garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and
farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the
commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a
home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the
Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all
fifty states.
Karasik: Oh, wow, good.
Graham: So—
Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if
there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve
done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very
rewarding—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and—
Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for
Environmental Innovation.
Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place.
Graham: Right here in Encinitas.
Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be
something that will still be here.
Graham: Yes, of course.
Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit.
Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit.
And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead
of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste
21
�in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if
you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive
if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year.
Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from.
Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it
exactly.
Karasik: Exactly.
Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice
excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden.
Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because
they think it will bring critters?
Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think
might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or
something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least
four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any
odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that
would tend to attract critters.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a
separate approach to composting?
Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin.
Karasik: Right.
Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And you give them things to eat.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and
twigs, etc.
Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that.
Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover.
Karasik: Yeah. Yeah.
Graham: Not meat. Of course.
Karasik: Right, right.
22
�Graham: Not meat or bugs.
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it
decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually
need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers
them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes.
Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that
you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head
and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct?
Graham: No. that’s not—
Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or—
Graham: No.
Karasik: That’s not true?
Graham: Um, too many people—I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end,
they might survive.
Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously.
Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that
you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die.
Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception.
Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular—
Karasik: And they are so critical.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you
familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to—because so
much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just—
Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish.
Karasik: mm-hmm.
Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to
make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came,
matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath
the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree.
Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well.
23
�Graham: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the
trash and hauling them off to the land fill.
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at
least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more.
Karasik: Have you ever visited that place?
Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago.
Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour.
Graham: There was a field trip—I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin—the
Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was
interesting.
Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how
they’re doing that.
Graham: Oh, yes.
Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point.
Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades
ago.
Karasik: Oh, did they?
Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant.
Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I
wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets
and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does
that work?
Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is.
You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones
and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it.
Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down?
Graham: It’s a—
24
�Karasik: What is that?
Graham: —it’s more like a chemical—
Karasik: Oh, okay.
Graham: —that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to.
Karasik: Okay.
Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So—
Karasik: Oh, that’s how—
Graham: —but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details.
Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —for the EcoFest as well.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and
educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you
will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know
you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations.
Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people.
Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re—actually, I don’t know if I
mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I
really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know,
locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage
people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to
use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much.
Graham: You’re very welcome.
Karasik: And we will finish here.
25
�GLOSSARY
Babcock peach (pg. 15)
Biophaline (pg. 7, 8)
California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19)
Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24)
County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20)
EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25)
Glyphosate (pg.6)
Heritage Museum (pg. 19)
Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4)
Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11)
Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12)
Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14)
Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24)
Panamint nectarine (pg. 15)
Polychaete (pg. 7, 8)
San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25)
San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12)
Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25)
Stone, Harry (pg. 18)
Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17)
Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19)
Truck farm (pg. 19)
University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21)
Vermicompost (pg. 22)
26
�
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Graham. Carol. Interview transcript, November 4, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
Creator
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Carol Graham
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Suzy Karasik
Melissa Martin
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2022-11-04
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Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control
Gardening -- California -- San Diego County
Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County
Organic farming
San Diego State University
San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.)
University of California (System). Cooperative Extension
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Encinitas (Calif.)
North San Diego County (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en
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Carol Graham
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GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_Transcription
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience