1 10 4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brian Bilbray OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Tijuana;San Diego;Borderlands;Politics;Congressman OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. SC027-056 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm Environmentalism and politics Politics and government--21st century Borderlands Mexican-American Border Region Water rights--United States Water rights--Mexico Metropolitan government Politics and government--20th century Environmentalism and politics--California--San Diego Environmentalism and politics--Mexico--Tijuana United States. Congress. House Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Tijuana ; San Diego ; Borderlands ; Politics ; Congressman Brian Bilbray Riccardo Savo 1.0:|19(17)|34(6)|46(17)|62(10)|76(5)|95(5)|111(17)|123(15)|139(3)|155(10)|171(12)|182(13)|195(5)|210(5)|223(3)|235(9)|246(5)|260(12)|273(4)|287(4)|300(13)|312(10)|325(15)|339(16)|353(6)|364(12)|376(5)|387(12)|399(5)|413(3)|425(13)|436(13)|448(12)|458(6)|473(12)|485(10)|504(6)|518(14)|529(16)|541(15)|554(4)|567(7)|579(14)|589(14)|603(5)|614(15)|628(9)|644(13)|655(16)|667(6)|680(3)|690(15)|701(13)|712(9)|724(9)|738(3)|752(3)|762(14)|777(8)|789(5)|803(3)|814(9)|827(6)|841(7)|855(13)|866(13)|881(8)|895(11)|905(16)|919(9)|932(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b761005e2c7ce7501e9da0e69bfc90a2.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Congressman Brian Bilbray and Riccardo Savo introduce themselves and discuss what it was like for Congressman Bilbray to grow up in San Diego's South County, next to the border with Mexico. Birthplace ; Childhood ; Mexico ; San Diego ; Coronado ; Imperial Beach 0 240 Beginning in Politics Congressman Bilbray discusses how he began his political career. Along the way, Congressman Bilbray explains that he had to navigate the political landscape in a way that was analogous to surfing. Politics ; Dana Rohrabacher 0 363 Accension from Mayor of Imperial Beach to House of Representatives Congressman Bilbray discusses the driving factors that led him to successfully run as a Republican congressman including his college degrees and experience. Congressman Bilbray also discusses his previous experience as a lifeguard prior to politics. Law Enforcement ; Lifeguard 0 639 First Term as a Congressional Representative - Environmental Policies Congressman Bilbray discusses how his early political experiences as a city and county politician provided him with the expertise to form environmental policy in Congress. Congressman Bilbray sponsored numerous environmental bills that had a significant impact on San Diego and South Bay. Smog ; Smog Reduction Act ; Environment ; Tijuana ; Borderland 0 1030 Navigating Environmental Groups and the Border Areas Congressman Bilbray talks about how he helped to create the Otay Mountain Wilderness area and how he worked with groups like Green Peace throughout his career. Congressman Bilbray also talks about how the international border can be an obstacle when trying to work with multiple groups and agencies. Otay Mountain Wilderness Area ; Otay ; Frotnera ; Border ; Borderlands 0 1840 Challenging Authority - Second Term in Congress Congressman Bilbray talks about how there is a responsibility to speak up when you see something that isn't right. He also says that just because someone in authority says you can't do something does not make it correct. This mentality directly led Congressman Bilbray to run for a second, non-consecutive, term in Congress. San Diego ; Federal Government ; Healthcare ; Science ; Air Resources Board 0 2184 Tijuana Sewage Management Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with multiple agencies and passed multiple bills to address the sewage crisis. Bob Simmons ; Environment ; Sewage ; Tijuana 0 2926 Working with Bob Filner Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with Bob Filner. Bob Filner ; Sexual Harassment 0 3032 Reaching Across the Aisle Congressman Bilbray talks about how bipartisan legislation is essential to getting things done in politics. bipartisan legislation ; Democrats ; Republicans 0 3371 Local Government and Ideal Changes in Imperial Beach Congressman Bilbray talks about what he would like to see happen in Imperial Beach to improve the lives of people living there. He also talks about the importance of proper consultation by subject matter experts and following facts when proposing legislation. Imperial Beach ; Politics ; Environment 0 3778 Being in the Right Place to Change Things Congressman Bilbray talks about the California REAL I.D. and how some of his legislation did not pass. Congressman Bilbray also talks about going against his own party to convince them to pass legislation. REAL I.D. ; Immigration ; 9/11 0 4210 Outro and End of Interview 0 Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Riccardo Savo: So, formality. Today is April 3rd, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at Cal State San Marcos. I'm interviewing Congressman Brian Bilbray for the University Library Special Collections Oral [History Internship] Project. Mr. Bilbray, thank you very much for being here with me today. Brian Bilbray: Honored to be with you. Savo: No, it's definitely an honor and privilege here. I would just like to begin very broadly, if you could just, you know, tell me a little bit of background, a little bit about your background here in San Diego County. I understand that you're a Coronado native, and, you know, a lot of the issues that you ran as a politician concerned about the environment. How was your experience in Coronado? How did that affect your transition or your, your risk taking in politics Bilbray: For the record, I'm an Imperial Beach. Savo: Imperial Beach. Bilbray: I was born in Coronado, actually at North Island, which wasn't technically part of Coronado at that time. But when I was chairman of San Diego County, I had that part of North Island annexed to Coronado, so I could claim I was born in Coronado. But no, I was actually born and raised in Imperial Beach, a block from the Pacific Ocean. Two houses separated my childhood home, uh, and the Mexican border. I had to go about 50 yards, maybe 40, 35 yards to go to the Tijuana estuary. And that's where I played, beaches, literally, I had the luckiest thing in the world. I literally grew up on the edge. On the edge with Mexico, and the edge, with the Pacific Ocean. So when I talked to my, my cousins in Australia, I could always explain where I live, because anywhere in the world, you just say, “You know where the Pacific Ocean is?" and “You know where the border is between Mexico and the U.S.?” Well, right where they meet is where I live and I'm growing up. Savo: That's awesome. Bilbray: . My mother was an Australian tennis player and accountant, and my parents, um, there was a temporary use of a hotel for General MacArthur, and my parents met there, and my father was a naval officer who actually was from southern Alabama. A place called Monroeville, where To Kill a Mockingbird was written. And he went to an orphanage in Mobile and got into the Navy, and they actually met, and in 1944, my mother came to the United States as the first group of war brides. In fact, she was very proud that she was the first Australian war bride to get her citizenship. So interesting mixture. But that Australian background with a, with an American, a kind of working-class background, kind of made me who I am. Savo: You mentioned once in an interview that you compared surfing to politics. You know, if you wanna ride a wave, you have to take a risk. Could you speak to how those hobbies and, and that childhood background, how did that translate when you were running for [San Diego] city council? What, what… how would I say it? What, motivated you to, to join city council? Bilbray: Well, first of all. Savo: Especially at a young age, Bilbray: You know, surfing starting, I started surfing at third grade, and I'm, interesting story that, when I ran for the city council at 25, 24 [years old], there was a man that lived on my block who I asked him, if “You'd consider voting for me?” And he says, “I'll vote for you no matter what. I've watched you your whole life.” And he says, “I remember you dragging a balsa wood board over your shoulder, dragging the board to the beach and back every day, and you look like Christ going to the Calvary.” And he said, “if you were determined enough as a third grader to do that, I think you ought to go to the city council.” But, the surfing analogy in life is just so clear, it’s that you get out of it what you put into it, but you've got to invest the hard work. And you've got to basically, put yourself in a position where opportunity may come along. And so you're not guaranteed to catch any wave, but you're guaranteed you're never gonna catch a wave if you're not willing to get in the cold water, struggle against the waves, and then sit and wait for the wave at the right time, and then the execution. So, a lot of this opportunity, a lot of it’s perseverance. And one of the things about surfing that a lot of people don't understand is, unlike skiing and a lot of other things, you can't see what you're going to do. You have to imagine the wave breaking to get in the right spot. And so, a lot of this is having the imagination to perceive what is going to happen and be in the right place at the right time with the right talents and the right tools to be able to take advantage of it. And to be able to, you know, accomplish anything with it. And so that, in a little way, I think that applies to all life, but in politics, it just happens to be a little higher profile. Savo: Okay. Bilbray: Oh, by the way. -- Savo: Yes. Bilbray: One of the lines I always said to Dana Rorabacher, which was a guy from Huntington Beach. He would not endorse me for Congress until I went up to Huntington Beach and surfed with him. And he just said, then he said,” Why are you so much a better surfer than I am?” And I said, “Dana, I've been doing it a lot longer than you have, but you surf like your politics, you only go to the right. There's a whole left to a wave. So, if you're willing to just catch the good wave, sometimes you go to the left and sometimes you go to the right.” And I think he took the analogy appropriately [laughs] Savo: That’s great. So, I'm curious to learn about how you went from becoming mayor and then ascending to the House of Representatives. You know, you first represented the 50th district and the 52nd, I believe. Bilbray: 49th and then the 50th. Savo: 50th. My apologies. Could you talk about that ascent for me briefly, if you could? Bilbray: I actually got involved with politics, because I was a lifeguard. And the whole ocean was always very much a big part of my life. But being down there, the clash between law enforcement and the kids on the street, and you had drug dealing in Imperial Beach. But then the law enforcement almost approached it as if everybody who was longhaired and young was involved in this. And I actually got involved with getting groups together to work with the police and get the police to meet the kids and the kids. So that, you know, knowledge is the most important thing law enforcement has. And as a lifeguard, that gave me a good position of someplace where I could, um, that I was neither fish nor fowl. I was sort of in between the law enforcement and the kids on the beach. Bilbray: They were used to lifeguards being around. We weren't a threat. That ended up getting me involved with it. And, when I was 24 years old, actually was 23! I was appointed as a human relations commissioner by the city. And then at 24, I was asked after a rescue where I, had a girl around my neck and I had to do a in-water resuscitation on a young lady. In fact, I always remember how blue she was. I didn't, I really didn't believe we, I had a chance to save her. She was face down and I ended up resuscitating and going-- didn't get any response to her, in her vitals. But halfway to the hospital after the EMTs picked her up, she was… survived. What I didn't know at that time was, we do rescues, like a lot of rescues not in the water resuscitations like that, but we do a lot of it. Bilbray: And you never think about, it's just another rescue. But what happened this time was there happened to be a local newspaper photographer taking pictures of the beach, and he had a whole series of this rescue. So, then the city gave me a big award for saving it. And then people started saying, “He ever thought about getting involved in politics?” And my family had been involved in the formation of the city and a couple recalls. So, as a young, younger person. I sat through meetings and when my father died, my father died when I was in 10th grade. I kind of got mom into the political scene as a way to keep her busy as a high school student. And that sort of led to people thinking comfortable that they could try to talk this young, you know, 24-year-old running for the city council. And I was elected to the city council just after my 25th birthday, a couple months after my 25th birthday. Savo: Wow. And I'm assuming that's like probably around March? Bilbray: April. Savo: April. Oh. So, then… Bilbray: The elections were, separated in those days. And I mean local elections were able to be placed any time they wanted to. Savo: Okay. So this had all happened after the fact that you had attended Southwestern and everything? Bilbray: Yeah. I actually, what happened was, I was a history major with a theater arts minor. Like I say quite freely, I wanted to be a history professor, but I couldn't pull the academics, so I got stuck in Congress instead. But the theater, really the history background with a theater minor really did help me in politics. I mean, in fact, there's a lot of camera crews for TV stations here in town that always, still, jack me up for telling them, “Well, now do you want to get this angle of the light?” [laughs] I would set up the shots because I was used to it. But I'm, I think that it helps to some degree to understand presentation. And not in debate. I think a lot of [the] problem [with] people in politics thinks debates, what's really important Message is a lot more than arguing. Savo: It's all about the understanding, the knowledge, the whole presentation as well. But, you know, it's, it's having that mindset or having that expertise. Bilbray: Yeah. Savo: So I'm curious to learn about your first term as a congressman in the House of Representatives. You authored, sponsored numerous pieces of legislation that not only pertained to the local environment, but also to our border. You introduced the Border Smog Reduction Act of 1998. Could you tell me a little bit about that? How were you able to garner support within the House to do so? And did you work with other local representatives to achieve that? Bilbray: Well, first really, my years in local government gave me a real background that most people in Washington don't have. I served on the California Coastal Commission. I was able to, I served on the Air Resources Board for the state of California, the notorious CARP working with some of the best scientists in the world. And legislators don't have this kind of exposure. I served on the Air District for San Diego County and so, a lot of the technical stuff that you pick up in local administration, you would never be able to have in almost any other field. And so I was, I had worked as a mayor because of the Tijuana sewage problem. I had, you know, 45 million gallons of raw sewage pouring into my city in 1980. And I was aware of that. Bilbray: But the Air Resources Board and the Air District, I sponsored the Smog Reduction Act because you had a situation to where the federal government was requiring that if somebody worked in a non-attainment area, an area where it's polluted like L.A., San Diego, that if you commuted into a non-attainment area, you had to have your car smogged in that non-attainment area. So that was a law. So somebody coming from humor or something would have to do it. Well, the same government that was requiring that the locals do this, were controlling the international border, and waving people in every day that didn't have their car smogged. And so we ended up in a situation in south San Diego, uh, the South Bay that you had Imperial Beach that might have had a real pollution problem when it came to water, but we had the cleanest air in San Diego County. Bilbray: And, because we didn't get hit with what they call the Catalina eddy, where L.A. smog would come out during the night and then blow down on North County and pollute the northern part. Our air, Imperial Beach was very clean, but two miles away, three miles away at San Ysidro we had the dirtiest spot in the county. And that was because of the traffic, the operation of the border, and the fact that we weren't getting the smogging going down. And I got exposed working on that problem. I got exposed to groups like Honeywell's Remote Sensing, where they were identifying that the stop and go traffic was a major pollution problem. And I mean, right to this day, you have no one pushing to have stop signs taken out. Bilbray: We’re talking about doing all these billion-dollar projects and all these great little environmental projects but, just going to traffic circles instead of traffic lights, going to yield signs instead of stop signs, huge reduction in air emissions, and nobody talks about it. It's totally blind. But because I worked on that border smog as a local government guy, I then was in the position that when I got to Washington, I knew the problem, I knew the technicalities and, and pushed that. And what's interesting about the Border Smog Reduction Act, we did not have one Mexican national complain about it. Not one! The people that complained were Americans who were registering their cars out of the country to avoid the deal. And it was U.S. citizens that said, “Well, I'm a U.S. citizen. I have the right to do this.” And all of this, you know, when you do these things, the learning curve is so steep, you learn so much by just making the effort to move it forward. Savo: Hmm That’s very interesting. I didn't know that it was mainly U.S. nationals complaining about this bill. I assume that there would've been some repercussions from the Mexican end. But, I'm interested, how that was perceived after the bill was passed. Were there any political fallout from that? Bilbray: No, you would think that, you think that people, you know, everybody's got a hypersensitivity. Um, like I, I was told by Greenpeace one time that they don't wanna look punitive to a nation of color. So you can't apply the normal standards to certain areas because people then have a hypersensitivity of looking to be outraged about it. I didn't sense very much attack at all. I think that everybody's gotta remember the greatest victims of that problem. The only people that were impacted more than San Ysidro, was Tijuana. And, a lot of that border pollution issue is the fact that the most vulnerable and the poorest are the most impacted. And that isn't discussed about very much. And so, uh, no. I'm sure that there might have been a lot more people upset, but really, it was very focused on the fact that the problem was something that just common sense. That if you want to have the opportunity to go to school in San Diego County, if you want the opportunity to work in San Diego County, with those opportunities, go environmental responsibilities. And that nexus that connection is essential for not only our environmental policy, but for our whole quality of life. Bilbray: You can't maintain any standard if you're going to find excuses to not, maintain a minimum standard. Savo: You mentioned groups like Greenpeace. Um, how, how were you able to reach across to these groups? Or how were you able to be in connection with these groups if they were not so willing to back your bill or not so willing to help the crisis? It seems like they were more counterproductive. It seems like they were more-- Bilbray: Well, they can be on situations like that. But when I did the. I created the Otai Mountain Wilderness Area. And in Washington, because you have certain mindsets in Washington. But, in Washington, when I proposed that we were going to have a wilderness area that had roads in it, you would've think that I was committing the greatest sacrilege in the world because that they couldn't understand, “Well then why have wilderness [area], if you have wilderness [that] is all about roads?” And, actually, it was the local Sierra Club that helped me carry the message to Washington and to the National Sierra Club that without the roads, the wilderness area would be totally destroyed. And they said, “Why?” I said, because the border will be totally out of control. And you have people that had no life experience of the Frontera and what goes on in the frontier. Bilbray: I mean, you're looking at somebody that, when I was 10 years old, walked from Imperial Beach all the way down and, you know, crossed into Mexico and came back. My mother actually caught me as I was crossing. And before she passed away, I said, how did you know to come catch me down there? She goes, “Well, I went to the park and across the street they said, ‘Oh, Brian went with this 10-year-old and, this 12-year-old, and he's going to Mexico.’” And so, she drove down and caught me. But, that kind of, you know, growing up with that environment, you sort of go back and forth about how you approach this. When it comes to, there's just. It's just astonishing how with the entire Frontera area, people are intimidated by it. Bilbray: [They] are absolutely intimidated. And it's so alien to them. I mean, to this day, you have people come visit you at your house, and you can walk out of my front doorstep and see the bull ring at La Playa [in Tijuana]. And Tijuana looks down on Imperial Beach. We take that for granted, and people just don't comprehend that. And I think that a lot of this kind of stuff is, people are intimidated. Even environmentalist groups and NGOs are very intimidated by it. And I remember there was a lady who served with me on the County [of San Diego] Board of Supervisors, Susan Golding, who, was doing something about the border. And she got totally attacked because she said something that somebody was always sensitive about. And she walked in my office very upset and said, “What's going on?” Bilbray: And I said, it's a landmine. As soon as you get around that border region, people are looking at one side or the other, and it's totally different. And don't get upset about it. And they're very uncomfortable about the border. But see, when you grow up in Imperial Beach, when you grow up in San Ysidro, Chula Vista, you know, at least 20% of the kids that we went to school with lived in Tijuana. I mean, which came in handy when you were in high school because you go down there, and you knew somebody's uncle owned one of the bars. You know, it was just one of those things that we were culturally, crossing. But that is, we take it for granted. And that's a big mistake for us taking it for granted. The ability for people to comprehend the trans-frontera culture is so tough for 'em. I mean, that line gets in there. When you try to explain to 'em, and any of us that grew [up] on the South Bay know, you can know where Mexico starts and where the U.S. starts by the color of the lights. And we just sort of think about that. Well, it's something that just doesn't happen through osmosis. It just happens to be our neighborhood. Savo: You mentioned that's a lot to take in. You mentioned this transnational community, this area that IB [Imperial Beach]is located in. Would you say that this community that's being formed here, did it have any effect on the development in IB [Imperial Beach]? Because I know, there's a lot of different propositions that you wanted, recreational that you wanted to… Bilbray: You had, you had. Let me tell you the transformation and anybody that grew up in the South Bay understands it. Where else in America, when do you have to drive through two other cities to get to the other part of a city? Savo: That’s true. Bilbray: Physically cannot go on. A lot of people, we take it for granted, but the extraordinary situation that happened with the major wealth in the city of San Diego, using their political power and influence to annex a huge area in our neighborhoods, and it was for their land development schemes. You had major investors from San Diego City buy in an area called Otai Mesa along the border. And they bought all the land around a place called Brownfield, and they were going to make the international airport there, and they were gonna make a fortune. That major investment, they annexed, and cut a deal, so that they could annex down a waterway, 300 feet wide, down the middle of San Diego Bay, uh, negotiated with cities not to claim their old title. Bilbray: So, they could sneak down here and then annex an appendage down along the border so they could control the border crossing at San Ysidro, and they could take the airport and move the airport down there and make a fortune. They used that to stop any development in the estuary or in the valley because they wanted that all free and clear for landing jets over the top of it. ’Cause they didn't wanna see the problems we had at, at Lindbergh Field. All of that was part of something that those of us in the South Bay didn't even know what was going on. And the annexation of San Diego into the South Bay was a major intrusion. I mean, the south, the South Bay part of San Diego is nothing, less than a colony. And I watched that, I watched it in many little ways, but the manifestation that I try to explain to people so they can have a visual is that when you drive from Imperial Beach and leave Imperial Beach and go into San Diego, between the freeway and Imperial Beach. You'll notice that there's not one billboard in Imperial Beach. Bilbray: But as soon as you hit San Diego, it’s billboard after billboard after billboard. And I know because I was county supervisor for Point Loma and for Imperial Beach, a lot of, most of those billboards were shipped down from the wealthy areas of Point Loma because you had a local council member who want to get it off of Rosecrans [Street in Point Loma]. So, the deal was you take it off of Rosecrans and we'll let you put it down in Imperial Beach in the South San Diego area. And literally using this as a dumping ground. You see hotels being converted to halfway houses in the coastal zone. There's no place else in America where that allows. You've got nowhere else in America under the EIS, the Environmental Impact Statement, could you cite a Home Depot or a Walmart, legally, anywhere with only one access point. You always have to have at least two, if not three. Well, down in the south San Diego, you not only have a Walmart, you have a Walmart and a Home Depot with only one access point. And that intersection is what they call a Schedule E. It is dysfunctional most of the time because they've created that. Somebody made a lot of money on it, and the environmental standards were abandoned because these are just poor people of color. And so, yeah. Don't get me started on this, but the whole concept has been a real problem. Savo: You you're very passionate about the subject and I'm very curious to know how...were, as a congressman, how were you able to explain to your, or illustrate to your constituents that you were that passionate about this, about what was happening in an IB. Obviously today, in today's day and age, we live in an area of transparency, right? Were we're trying to voice our message and our concerns. What, what was your outreach to the community and to the district? Bilbray: I had an advantage that because I had served as mayor and county supervisor, I had shown my passion for it before I was ever a congressman. In fact, I got a reputation of being a little crazy. And that, uh, but the situation was crazy. It started very early in my first term as mayor, where the county health department, which let me just say on the side. The County of San Diego has probably the best health department in the entire country. The standard, of quality, the science is second to none and it really helped me when I went to Washington. One of my greatest, I had resources, I had people I could call, I had people who were so far ahead of the curve on air and in health issues that were great. Bilbray: I had actually started over the issue that the federal government came in and condemned half of our city for a habitat preservation. It had actually been a big section had been condemned by the United States Navy called it the Tijuana Sluice Preserve. And that was the preserve, the right of the Navy to fly their helicopters over our city. And the wind. When I was mayor, we had major vector problem, mosquitoes. And we had salt water, late every year about September, the high tides, big king tides, and we get into it will cause [a] major bloom of mosquito larva. And I actually had mothers bringing their children into a city council meeting and taking their kids' shirt off and saying, “150 mosquito bites! We need to do something about this.” And they were right. When I meet with Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, I literally was told straight to my face that “Mayor, that's a sign of a healthy environment.” Bilbray: And that's when you start saying the system is too insulated from reality. And when the county proposed to go down and spray, and they show that they were using environmentally responsible, they were distillates that were very light, [a] thing called Golden Bear. You had Fish and Wildlife talking about diesel. Diesel hadn't been used for 60 years. And the scientists at the county showed, here's the environmentally responsible way to do it. We can kill the larvae. The thing disperses within two hours doesn't impact the, the vertebrates and whatever. And you had somebody in the position of power at Fish and Wildlife said no. In fact, they said, "If the county goes down there, we'll arrest everybody who's spraying.” And when they said that, I announced an a press release and did a press conference and said, good, because the mayor of Imperial Beach is gonna be the one spraying, and you can arrest the mayor for doing this. Bilbray: And then we can, we can stand up in front of court and let the system go. And I think a lot of that is the street sense I learned in a working-class neighborhood that, just because somebody in authority says something, doesn't mean that it's right. And that, you basically know that, you don't argue it in the streets. You take it to the court where it's not their turf. So one thing you'll learn is never fight somebody on their turf. Find a neutral ground. And the neutral ground would've been the courts. And I was coached on how to operate the equipment. I let the media know I was gonna do it. And sure enough, within a few days, the Fish and Game, Fish and Wildlife reversed their position and allowed it to happen. That shouldn't have to happen! And I'd like to think that that would, that is just because it happens everywhere. But frankly, I think there's a big double standard and the mentality of how people approach that. So, I learned to push the system right from there. And that led to issues with sewage and everything else, is that the system needs to be pushed. That's how you keep it honest. Savo: You talk about how you have to sort of break rules to achieve the ends. And, um… Bilbray: Well, let me clarify. Not, well, not needing to break the rules, but when somebody is making up rules that are not the law, then you not only have a right, you have a responsibility to call it down. And I guess that's the big deal. I'll tell you something. The Simon and Garfunkel song, [The] Sound of Silence is about the sin of being quiet. And I think we always stick to the edict that it's better to remain silent and somebody think that you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's always safer in our society to remain quiet. Um, I think that is as Simon and Garfunkel will say is a cancer, and it doesn't do anybody a service, especially those that are overreaching or whatever that need to be called down. Bilbray: So no, I think the biggest issue that I've always said is that, like a lifeguard, you couldn't stop me from going in the water and rescuing, I call it the tennis ball and the Labrador syndrome. When somebody like a 9/11 [September 11th attack], somebody like myself, when you see somebody in trouble, there's some of us that just have to go. It's just instinctive. And I call it the Labrador and the tennis ball because when you throw a tennis ball off the end of a pier, that Labrador is over the water before he realizes what he's done. It's that instinctive. And, I think that there's just some of us that are hardwired that way. And this one definitely has gotten me in trouble in politics. But I think it's probably one of the biggest things that I would never change in the world. I'd rather get in trouble for speaking out than allow things to happen because I found it safer to remain silent. Savo: Well that's great perspective because I was actually about to ask you, you have a very unique political story in Congress. Were you reelected for a second term, a non-consecutive term. Was there an energy that reignited your motivation to run again? Was the stagnation of the environmental concerns in Imperial County or Imperial Beach the reason that you decided to run again? Bilbray: There was, across the board there were so many opportunities in the environmental, strategies that are abandoned and feel, so, see. I introduced a bill to eliminate the mandate on California to use ethanol. I had the Lung Association come in and literally challenged me that I didn't care about people dying of cancer. My father died of cancer. Lung cancer. But they were going on a certain agenda. And I knew from serving on the Air Resources board that we had found at the Air Resources Board that ethanol was not only not a good, environmental option, but it was a pollutant. And to this day, the federal government does not do total testing on auto emissions because they want to hide the evaporative emission problem with ethanol because there is a huge Archer, Daniels, Midland involvement and involvement in nonprofits that claim to care about it, that Archer, Daniels, Midland, it's good for their business. Bilbray: And I don't mind 'em doing that, but I mind them wrapping themselves in [an] environmental blanket and saying, “God wants you to give me your money.” I call them environmental Jimmy Swaggers. And that doesn't follow the science. And so many people that you'll hear, “Stick to the science, stick to the science,” will abandon the science, not address stationary sources like inappropriate traffic management if we want to reduce air pollution. But the ethanol issue was one that the Air Resources board came to me and asked me to carry. And I knew about it because I just finished serving with them. That kind of thing, I think is essential to do. And I think for the credibility of those of us working on environmental problems, we have to do that. You can't pick and choose, you know, well, I want this one because it's convenient to do and not go the other way. Bilbray: And, I mean, I drove a natural gas car back in the eighties, not many people were talking about that and the flex fuel that you get into it. But, the, the challenge is trying to keep the science up front. Environmental activism is not a theology, it's not a religion. You don't have dogma. It's the best science you have at the time. And when the science tells you that what you thought was factual is not you not only have a right to do that, you have a moral obligation. I mean, it's so hypocritical to claim you're out to save the world, but you kind of ignore the facts when they don't fit you right. And to this day, to this day, I'm looking at what's happening here in California. Traffic Management, a lot of this kind of stuff that we're working on, nobody wants to talk about because it just doesn't fit the doctrine right now because it's sort of what's fashionable. Tijuana sewage was not fashionable. I built a reputation on that because I had no other choice. And right now, we still have that problem. It's worse today than it's ever been. Savo: So--Bilbray: Don't let me get you off your line. Savo: No, no, no. I just wanna make sure that I Bilbray: follow it up. Savo: I love, I love everything that you're-- Bilbray: Double back on it and get anything I passed that if I didn't hit it. What was your real question? Let me try to get right onto it. Savo: No, I was actually gonna ask if you could elaborate on some of the bills that you had authored, co-sponsored to address the sewage crisis. 'Cause you had two propositions to address the crisis. One, which was the expansion of the South Bay the wastewater treatment plant. And the other was a, uh, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it here, Bagua project. Bilbray: Bagua. Well, first of all, one of the things is make sure that the laws follow the science. And one of the things I got involved with that I got attacked for being anti-environment is [to] eliminate the secondary mandate [Secondary treatment of water through the quality control process] at Point Loma. And this is where people, you know, just get so frustrated that they care so much that they turn their brain off. They're leading with their heart and obviously, secondary is better than primary. So why wouldn't we go to secondary? And the fact is, is that it was lucky that there was a physician, I mean a lawyer who, named Bob Simmons. And he actually was just absolutely sharp on the line. And a lot of us, the line was always said that he could see it clearly, even though he was blind, that the law was hurting the environment. Bilbray: And what happened was he had run into the environmental impact report for going to secondary at Point Loma, they went through all the assessments from the environmental point of view, and they said that, “Because we're in this…” the outfall had been taken so far out to sea, was under three [thermoclines], the current of the Japanese current was dissipating. And, and the ocean was assimilating, that there was no net degradation of the sewer outfall at what they call advanced primary, about 89% of all solids taken out to about 94%. And then they looked at, okay, we're going to build, do this, do this, do this. And when they looked to go to secondary, the environmental impact report and the EIS, the environmental impact statement said, the building, the plants and doing all of that, will cause more environmental damage than anything that advanced primary was doing. Bilbray: So the answer to a problem was worse than the problem. And you had people that say, “We don't care. Secondary is the standard, is the law.” And Mr. Simmons talked to me about it, and he was right. And I took it to Congress and said, when an environmental law hurts the environment, it's being implemented wrong. No one passes an environmental law with the intention to hurt the environment. And, so here you had the scientists gave us a report and everybody wanted to ignore it because it meant that we had to go back and rethink an agenda. And what happened was, is that the Activated Sludge Mandate was meant for in-water, freshwater inland rivers and lakes where dissolved oxygen is a big deal. But in the open ocean, dissolved oxygen is plentiful because with so much action in the ocean, that they were taking something that was meant for ponds, rivers, and, small estuaries, freshwater estuaries and trying to apply it to the open ocean. Bilbray: And it hurt the environment. So, [I] actually had Donna Fry attack me for, well, that was because she meant well, but she was, she was ignorant about the situation. In fact, I think the history shows eventually she ended up changing her position too. That along with the, you know, we were talking about some of the other issues on the Tijuana situation. The Bagua [project] was recognizing that the problem was that Mexico did not have the problem. And I'll just tell you this, I have the pleasure of meeting every year with members of the Congress in Mexico and astonishing with all the talk about how people, we are neighbors of Mexico, how few members of Congress actually would go to these meetings. And once a year we meet in the U.S. or meet in Mexico and we talk. There was a gentleman who represented Tijuana in the Congress. Bilbray: And after the meetings, whatever, over a couple beers, he made a comment to me and he says, “Brian, your problem is that it's not our problem.” [He] says, “Your problem is to figure out how to make it our problem.” I said, what do you mean? He says, “You realize that when we dump the sewage, we don't have to pay for the chemicals, we don't have to pay for the pumping, we don't have to pay for the maintenance. You know, it just goes away. And what you gotta do is figure out how to make it our problem.” Well, one way we make it their problem, and the only way that problem is ever gonna be addressed, is when Mexico and Tijuana needs that gallon of sewage to turn into their next gallon of drinking water. And Bagua was a way of being able to do that in a third world country. Bilbray: And that was to get Tijuana on a total recycling program. Where they absolutely had to depend on recycling to be able to provide the water they needed for their country. I mean, for their city. And the concept was that we weren't going to send money into a third world country like we're doing, and we are gonna do again, because what happens is the money gets diverted to other places. A good example is when we first built the Banderas treatment plant in Mexico. I knew the engineering on that, I was in the negotiations in 1985 in Mexico City. Mexico wanted to get a grant to bring a million and a half acre feet of Colorado water to Tijuana through Otay Mesa, Mesa de Otay. Bilbray: And so we were looking at that plan. What we recognized is that, we were gonna send water down there, and the source of the pollution that pollutes our estuaries and our beaches actually comes from the United States. Because without that water, there would not be sewage flowing into the United States. So then their line was, we can't support this unless you can guarantee that this water's not gonna come back polluted, in 1985. And, the entire concept was we tried that, we were looking at that. And when they built the Banderas plant, it just shows you the little corruption that gets involved in these things. And it's not, and you know, if you, if you see the details, you kind of start understanding better why you have these in third world countries. They were open ponds and they had a thing called an aqua lift. Bilbray: And the aqua lift was a tube that air would be pumped in. And it, the aqua lift pumps the water by the bubbles coming up, draws it in. And the Jetco program with the aqua lifts that were engineered for these ponds had converging turbines. So, one turbine would turn one way, the other one would turn the other way, and as the bubble went up, it had all these turbines going there and dissolved the oxygen into the water so much better. And that raised it really up [oxygen levels]. So that was, and when we did the plan, that was all in the engineering. When they went to purchase it, somebody went over to Mexico and said, “Look, we've got the aqua lift and it's only 20% of the costs of these Jetcos. These Jetcos get patents. We've figured out how to do it without it being so expensive.” Bilbray: What they had was a tube with baffles. Now, what happened was it only had 20% of the dissolved oxygens that the other one had. So, the entire plant’s were only a quarter, you know, of what they planned on. Because they had changed this one component. And some people say, “Well, you can't expect them to do that.” Getting back the recycling is where we've got to get it done. And by Agua you have a private company bonded in the United States in Mexico, and they do not get paid for building anything, for digging anything. They only got paid for per gallon they treated, they would then be paid for that. So, outcome-based environmental strategy, and that's one of the things that I'm absolutely an advocate for is we've gotta get back to the concept that the outcome is what matters. Bilbray: You can build all these plants, you can do all these regulations, you can do all these things in environmental strategies, but if the outcome doesn't reflect your goals, then you not only have a right but a responsibility to change this. The regulations are useless And if, it doesn't work out. One of my biggest frustrations working with the Republicans in Congress was they could not see, and John Boehner, I tried to tell 'em and trying to get people to understand there are environmental regulations and you guys only see it as being bad for business. I can show you where it's bad for the environment. It's some of the worst stuff is done in the name of the environment. And so many of my Republican colleagues couldn't just get around, you know, just didn't see that as being important. I thought it's essential! Bilbray: It's the one place you could get the left and the right working together if they're willing to, you know, turn their brains on and open their eyes. And the Bagua was, the whole strategy was get there. Bagua was attacked because somebody was gonna make money off of cleaning up the sewage. And what's sad, you have nonprofits, you have corporations making money off the problem, but not solving the problem. And I actually watched them dismember a package that was put together with a Democrat and myself, [Congressman and former San Diego Mayor] Bob Filner and myself. And believe me, Bob Filner was no joy to work with. In fact, even the Democrats were shocked that I could work with him. But it was because, you know, you play the hand that the voters deal you and Bob was the the congressman from the area. And we worked out this way that says, these guys don’t get one cent unless they treat it, and they only get what they treat. Bilbray: And that was attacked because it was private operation. And people said, “That's immoral to have private companies doing these kinds of works.” Well, ladies and gentlemen, every project in Mexico is done by private contractors. And that's the naivete of people in the United States. Not taking the time to culturally understand that the Frontera is a different world. And that's where we get back to this issue of, we take things for granted here and other people just cannot comprehend it. It’s a quite unique experience we have by growing up on the Frontera. So, it paid off on that. Bagua was killed, and by people that now are crying, “Why has the problem gone from 45 to 55 million gallons of raw sewage pouring in every day?” Savo: Wow. You mentioned working with Bob Filner and the absolute, I don't want paraphrase here, but the absolute nightmare must have been to work and to kind of piece together this bill. How, how, [I’m] trying to phrase the right question here. Bilbray: Oh, lemme say Bob, Bob wasn't bad for me because I was on my home turf. Bob Filner was a carpetbagger. Okay. He, and I don't mind people come in and go back and forth, but, he ran in the South Bay because the South Bay was vulnerable. You realize that Juan Vargas is the only other congressman that ever represented the South Bay that was from the South Bay? Except for myself. That's an indictment to the process. But Bob came in, I had worked with Bob when he was a council member, worked with him before I went to Congress and before he went to Congress. And so there was relationships there that, again, that local government gave me a big advantage. I mean, his wife actually worked for me when I was chairman of LAFCO [San Diego County Local Agency Formation Commission], when I was at the county. And she was the director. And so, you know, relationships do matter, you know, human to human. And Bob knew that I knew his district better than he did. And I think he gave me more respect than I've seen him give anybody else. Not that he couldn't go unglued sometimes. Savo: I mean, you talk about these networking skills that you've developed in the county and then you obviously exercised it in the Congress. Could you speak a little to how you reach across the aisle when it came to these issues? You mentioned that you always have to look not only to the right, but you also have to look to the left. How did you find that goldilocks zone? How did you…? Bilbray: You pick up the tool that you need to get the job done. I actually had people attack me. [Congressman] Randy Cunningham hated Filner, hated that I was working with him. I actually had, you know, Republicans say, and I had reporters say, “You got Bob Filner on 80% of your legislation, why'd you do that?” And I said, because if I've got Bob Filler on my legislation, I got every left-wing crazy voting for me except Maxine Waters, you know? And so, I understood it, but growing up in my family I'm always used to that. My cousin was the congressman from Las Vegas, Democrat, Harry Reid's best friend. Harry Reid carried my bills. And they, you know, the concept that party line should be a barrier is absolutely absurd. And for those of us that are willing to cross the aisle, it's a real advantage. Bilbray: I mean, I prided myself on a lot of issues. In fact, the day I was sworn back into Congress, I made a gesture for a big reason. I was one of twenty-seven people in the history of the country that had come back from a different district. I purposely, when I gave my acceptance, at being sworn in. I did not stay on the Republican side of the aisle. There's two podiums, Democrat and Republican. I crossed over onto the Democrat side and I did my acceptance from the Democrat side. And there's an issue that you call in theater, they call violating your aesthetic distance. You're violating the presidium. You are-- like theater in the round, you're going into the audience. And they don't have the security of being away and sort of safe. And I did, I violated that aesthetic distance by moving into the Democrat side Bilbray: so I could talk to them personally one-on-one, in their face. Not from over here in the Republican corner. And that is a technique, but I think that it should, you know, people should use it more often. If people are safe hiding in their corners, you got an obligation to go pry 'em out. And, you know, Bob was obviously a real challenge. And he had a lot of his, you know, I worked with people in Congress and there's a lot of demons in Congress. But you know, who was it? You know, Plato said that, “Those who should rule won’t.” And I'm saying, look, normal people don't get involved with politics. So you get stuck with those of us that will. I actually had a gentleman named Allen UK, [the] man who gave me the idea of carrying the bill to bring the, the Midway into the county. Bilbray: And he wanted to get involved with politics. And what happened was so interesting is he ended up running against me. We ran against each other to replace Cunningham in the 50th. But he came to me and asked me, and gave me a compliment. And he says, “You are somebody that'll tell me what, what is the secret of being successful in politics? You've done it since you were a kid, Brian.” And, he says, “What do I need to do to be successful?” And I said, “Well, Allen, are you into pain?” And he says,” Oh, I don't mind it.” I said, “No, no, Allen, are you into it? That this is like surfing a big wave in cold water. This is like playing football, you know, you've got to be into it. You've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta love hitting people and getting hit. Bilbray: Normal people don't do this kind of thing.” And you've gotta, I picture it as this must be how women approach childbirth. This must be important. Nobody would do anything that hurts this much if it wasn't important. And that, you know, that's why normal people usually don't get into politics cuz it's counterintuitive of everything. We're not, but we should be reflecting. But I think that there's a whole lot of good people in the game. There's a whole lot of people that are in the game for the wrong reason. And the trouble is the people that are affected by people in Washington and local government. Don't, man, people grossly underestimate the influence of local government. Most important stuff is the council mayor. And, when bad people get in there, it's the weak and the vulnerable to get hurt the most. And they get it from places that you wouldn't even think about it. Savo: Going back to about the local government and, you know, we're talking about that the federal government's kind of the problem to the solution. It's very counterintuitive. It's not, it's not the actual problem solver, it's the problem itself. What would you, what would you like to see change in Imperial Beach in terms of the structure or in terms of the environmental concerns? What do you think would probably be the most, beneficial, not outcome, but the most beneficial factor to help? Bilbray: We look, I had the privilege of serving in many different levels of environmental administration. Air Resources Board is the most aggressive, most successful environmental agency in the history of the world. They are equated to being Nazis because of a lot of stuff. And you get involved with stuff that you never would dream. I mean, I spent, I knew I'd reached the epitome of my political career when we spent three days on underarm deodorants. Okay. But I also watched Air Resources Board do the political moonwalk and backpedal so fast when they were talking about outlawing two-cycle chainsaws and then all the lumberjacks showed up at a meeting. But that application of people from different backgrounds, but the biggest key there is so essential. But having a scientific group to advise them and having that kind of interplay between people that are experienced in the field and those who are making the policy decisions and the flexibility, [it] really works into a large degree. Bilbray: But that can become out of control too. That can become tyrannical. I think the, the biggest one is looking at the difference between the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. The Clean Water Act is process based. You will treat this to this level, you will do this, this, this, and this. And then if you do this, it's okay If you pollute, you just do this. And we get into it. The Clean Air Act said if you've got dirty air, you figure out, you put together a plan to address this and bring it forward to us and show that you're gonna do it, and then we'll monitor you. But you'll do it, and we'll give you the flexibility to solve it and to solve, to take care of it. But, there's no limit of what you have to do. Bilbray: And if you don't do it, you lose all your interstate transportation funds, you have a hammer. That outcome-based environmental strategy is so much more advanced, and it's astonishing in so many places that we're still locked into process base. And the process base, I think a lot of it is, you can pick winners and losers there. You go to electric cars and you know who's gonna win in electric cars. And you had, you had Boone Pickens trying to get, um, you know, trucks lined up on natural gas and nobody gave a damn when Mr. Pickens was saying it. And, that you've, you've gotta say where are you gonna go with your reductions and where you're gonna go with your strategies. And that's where I just really think we fall down. Bilbray: It's so much easier for a regulator just to say, you treat to this, and then I can walk away with it. Tijuana sewage, the Clean Water Act, was an advantage. But people who claim to be environmentalists blew it up because they thought they were gonna go clean it up by getting the secondary. By not being a secondary, you then had this situation like we have with Point Loma, where you have a consent decree where they have to do this, this, this, this, this. Not in the law. Okay. If you're not going to go to secondary, you have to do all kinds of other things like recycling water up at La Jolla. All the recycling program was all part of this deal that the lawyer from the Sierra Club worked with me on. But if we went to secondary, like we did at um, in Mexico, the Mexican plant at the international treatment plant, then once you go to secondary, you're free and clear. Bilbray: You don't have no obligations. Okay. Now, now the pollution can flow. And that's what we've got right now, that we actually reduce the capability of treating the volume because instead of removing 89% to 92%, 94% solids at advanced primary, we now go up to 98%, 95%, we got this number, but it's only like 8%, you know, of solids more. So, if you could treat, a gallon here and you get 80% removal, but here you get 95% removal. But if you go to 95% removal, you can only treat a quarter of the water to do that. Well, this had the illusion in environmental groups, so this is better. No, it’s not. You are actually gonna have more pollution going into the ocean because you went to secondary because you’re not treating. [They say]” Well. What we don't collect, we're not liable for.” And say that's how the IBWC was able, their capacity dropped dramatically. And, it's just frustrating to see people that mean well, but don't look at the numbers and don't look at the total impact. And they don't. And really the problem is, so few of people that are involved in this stuff actually live down at the border. Bilbray: And that's, that's the frustration. People are insulated from the outcome. And today, we do not have a recycling program in Mexico today because people who claim they cared about the environment killed the Bagua project because they're worried about some capitalists make money on recycling water. Well, guess what, guys? You got Poseidon up in Carlsbad. You got people, private money all over this country right now doing it and you're gonna do it. That's part of, that's a tool in our toolbox to be able to clean up the environment, shouldn't, allow some kind of misguided theology to stand in the way of good science. Savo: As we're sort of wrapping up our interview here were there any bills that you wish would've passed? Not just related to the environment, but in general as your, as your, both your terms in Congress? Bilbray: Look, I got things done that… In many different ways. Bilbray: The, um, Bilbray: Dirty little secret is probably one of the most efficient things I got done was you open up, look at your driver's license. The real ID bill was my piece of legislation. I did it while I was in my forced sabbatical. And I did it because a group that had worked with me on border problems came to me and said, would you carry this? And I was allowed, because I was a former member, or I was a former voting member, that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, actually had to call me into a conference of his Republicans so I could chastise Republicans about the fact that it's not a right-wing conspiracy to have a minimum standard for the ID that you need to get on an airplane. And they say, “Yeah, but this is gonna be a national ID card.” And you had ultra-conservatives that were gonna kill it. And I went in and says, “No, this is the alternative to a national ID card.” You have state IDs, but they have federal standards. And those standards then eliminate the need to have a federal ID. You have. The states are presenting what is, which is enforceable as a federal ID. And getting that passed, is really a lesson for our everybody to look at. It is just now finally becoming mandated. How many years has it been since 9/11? Savo: About 22, 22. Bilbray: And they said, just let me back up and explain why 9/11 is mentioned. The terrorists on 9/11 did not have to show their Saudi passports because they went to Virginia and they got a Virginia license plate, even though, the license, even though they were illegally in the country, they got an ID that got them on that plane and killed over 2,000 people, Americans. And, then when Virginia stopped it after 9/11, they stopped giving it to anybody who [applied] and they required that you have to be legally here, you have to have the proper documentation, whatever, to get it. Maryland was giving it, given it to [people who] didn't do it. So that's when people start sitting around saying, this could happen again. And the people may think that, “Oh, well that's punitive not to give it to somebody who's undocumented.” Bilbray: Well, what, what do you use as a basis for your document if there's no documents, the person has any documents you’re wide open. So that one has been real easy. And it actually goes to something I learned my first year in politics, was 1976 and California implemented a digital code on our driver's licenses, and it was a barcode. And I remember going through hearings as a little 25-year-old city councilman about [how] with this barcode you can put it a put it in a reader and you could get all the information, you can get the picture. In fact, and to this day, I remember them selling that. That all we have to do is get these readers for every squad car, every cruiser. And a police officer doesn't have to sit down and do the paperwork. Bilbray: He can punch it in. The trouble is, uh, fifty years later, they still haven't put the readers in the squad cars. And one of the things was to say it was really important you pull somebody over that if they put this reader in and that the picture on their screen is not the picture on the card. You know, officers are now warned that there's a problem here. But a lot of that is, you know, just osmosis, you're around it enough, you pick it up. And I was able to pull out my California card to these right wingers who didn't want to do it and then pull out my credit card. And, I just said, um, guys, do you have a credit card? “Yeah, we had credit card.” Do you have a …, I said, the government already knows all about it. Bilbray: If you've got a cell phone, they know where you are because we required the, 911 code to be able to track it down because somebody crashed in Colorado, went into a snowplow, and the kids were calling for911 and they couldn't find them. And the story at the hearing was they, Colorado had every, all the state troopers run with sirens on. And then when the kids heard the siren, they said, okay, they stopped the cars and they turned off the sirens until the kids said, stop. And so they knew which cruiser was in the area where these kids were. And I tell the story because that led up to the fact that now every phone is tracked. And so, these conservative guys, I said, they already know where you are. They know what you're buying so to worry about Bilbray: This driver's license thing is absolutely absurd. So that's how we got that through. But there was, you know, look, there's things that you get to do that you don't even talk about. I mean, one of the best things I ever did never even was public. And that is we had a local business that offered to give their supercomputer to the federal government. They had worked with the UC [University of California] system and they offered to give it, as long as I kept it secret, as long as we didn't say who they were. And it was a local business here that gave their supercomputer, as a mainframe for the genome program. And that mainframe and that genome program, ten years later, when my daughter was fighting stage three C cancer at 20% chance of living with melanoma. A 20% chance of living two more years, that's all. Bilbray: And that mainframe and that system that was set up ten years before, found the b wrap mutation on my daughter's cancer. And that's what saved her life. And I have two grandchildren because these businessmen quietly contributed to this. And I just happened to be on the committee, the Health and Environment Committee of the Energy and Commerce Committee. I was on the committee that was working on the genome program. And that deal has not only saved my daughter's life and created the two grandchild children's lives, but have done a whole lot more. I mean, how many millions of people have been saved on that? And nobody even knows that we did that. And that's what's important to being at the right place where you can help, being the lifeguard, being able to run out and, you know, be part of that. And you, you can't, you couldn't give me a million dollars to change that. The little things you do in the back and aren't talked about is what really matters. Savo: Well, Mr. Bilbray, this was an excellent interview. I appreciate you for your time. It was a real pleasure. I thank you a lot. Bilbray: Well, thank you very much. And, if you have any other wines, let me know. I'm unemployed now, so, as long as I'm not sailing my boat to Mexico or riding my Harley over to meet my, see my cousins in Las Vegas, I'll be around. In fact, we are, [on] the 27th of this month. I'm gonna represent my cousin who just passed away this year. They have the 20th anniversary of his elementary school they named after him. See, they'll do that for Democrats, but Republican will never get it [laughs]. But that's okay. Well, my luck, they'll name a sewage plan after me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-056 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Mexican-American Border Region Imperial Beach (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16c819ecee03d3978d8818963f0d9827.pdf d5078d0e63780b613c3a2061cc24e594 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview transcript April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Imperial Beach (Calif.) Mexican-American Border Region Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_Transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/112b21d9155ea35c00877f0832c5a9a6.pdf be319453aba0694528cf6ede19e42c5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview transcript, April 10, 2024 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10_transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ryan Willis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Wyland OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. American politics;California government;State Assembly;California Senate;Oral history in classrooms OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 SC027-38 02:30:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation and was created as part of the CSUSM University Library and History Department Internship in Oral History. csusm Politics and government -- 20th century ; Politics and government -- 21st century ; School boards -- California -- Escondido ; Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido ; California. Legislature. Assembly ; California. Legislature. Senate ; International relations ; Bills, Legislative ; Legislation -- California ; Oral history American politics ; California government ; State Assembly ; California Senate ; Oral history in classrooms Mark Wyland Ryan Willis .wav WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/064306702b5e232aff51531efbfa8101.wav Other audio English 0 Family history / Upbringing / Early career Mark Wyland begins the interview by discussing his family history. His maternal grandparents had moved to San Diego in 1925 and his grandfather was an Escondido city councilman and a supervisor for North County. His grandfather, father, and uncle also began a lumber and building materials business, which is still in operation today. Wyland also explains that he grew up in Escondido and attended Escondido High School. After high school, he attended Pomona College and studied International Relations. He further explains how he later worked for the City of New York on school construction while in graduate school before returning home to join the family lumber and plywood business. He adds that he stayed with the family business for twenty years. San Diego (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; New York (NY) ; lumber and plywood business ; family business ; Ponoma College ; International Relations 0 347 The teachers who inspired Wyland Mark Wyland recounts the teachers in his life who made an impact on his upbringing. He credits many teachers from his childhood and teenage years, such as his fourth grade and eighth grade teachers, Mrs. Stevens and Mrs. Von Bergen, as well as his German teacher, Bob Maywald. Wyland later studied abroad in Germany due to his positive experience in Maywald’s class. He also credits his high school speech teacher, Cliff Summerall, for inviting him to join the debate team and sparking his interest in politics. He also briefly discusses joining the family business and the importance of solving problems in a competitive market. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School ; Teachers ; Fourth grade ; Eighth grade ; High school ; Study abroad programs ; Debate teams ; Family business 0 842 Managing the family business Mark Wyland reflects on how running the family business shaped him as a person. He explains how being involved in the decision-making of the business made him realize that he was analytical and wanted to solve problems, which would be later prove beneficial to him when he entered politics. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; Lumber and plywood business ; Family business ; Problem solving ; Politics 0 1058 Semester abroad program in Germany Wyland recounts his semester abroad program in Germany when he was an undergraduate student at Pomona College. Wyland explains that he lived with a family for a month in the small town of Nördlingen. He lived with a family consisting of a husband and wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter, who was also a university student. He discusses the history of his host family, explaining how they had lived through World War I and had opposed Hitler. He then explains that he later was awarded a Fulbright scholarship to Germany after graduating with his Bachelor’s degree and spent a year there studying Germany policy. He reflects that both of these experiences in Germany, as well as the politics surrounding the Vietnam War, influenced his decision to enter into politics. Germany ; Nördlingen ; Study abroad programs ; Ponoma College ; Host family ; World War I ; Hitler ; Nazi Germany ; Vietnam War ; Politics ; Decision to enter politics 0 1683 School board race Mark Wyland explores his time running for the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. Wyland describes the experience as “brutal” and “contentious.” He discusses incidents that happened during his time on the school board, such as a large portion of the board organizing to remove a Hispanic superintendent. He also describes campaigning to implement English education for Hispanic students in classroom curriculums during his first school board race. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School board race ; School board ; School board politics ; Board of Education ; Escondido Union School Board ; English education curriculums ; Hispanic population 0 2124 California State Assembly race Mark Wyland discusses his time running for the California State Assembly in 2000. He reflects that the race was far more political than he had originally anticipated. Wyland describes a conflict during the race between himself and the then-assemblyman. Wyland explains that the then-assemblyman did not agree with Wyland’s previous Democratic politics and had raised money for lobbyists to go against Wyland. California State Assembly ; Politics ; Political campaign ; Primary election ; Democrats ; Republicans ; Lobbyists 0 2542 Becoming California Senator Mark Wyland discusses his time as California Senator. Wyland represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Wyland reflects on his early start in the Senate and how he had an interest in education reform. He also learned early on in his career that the state government is organized similar to Congress in terms of its parties, caucuses, committees, and the floor. He also explores how he found government to be much more partisan than he originally expected. He also contemplates the topic of term limits, explains the difference between state and federal laws, and discusses politicians who had abused their power. Politics ; California State Senate ; California Senator ; District 38 ; Education reform ; Organization of state government ; Partisan government ; Term limits ; State and federal laws 0 3297 The U.S. educational system Mark Wyland discusses the educational system in the United States, with an emphasis on the importance on vocational schools. He first explains the history of vocational schools, beginning with skilled apprenticeships during the Middle Ages. He also reflects on the disadvantages of the dismantling of vocational schools in the U.S., including the loss of students learning practical skills, the demoralizing of students’ drive for learning, and the increase in student loan debt. School ; Educational system ; Educational system in the U.S. ; Vocational schools ; Apprenticeships 0 4333 What makes Wyland a unique Senator Mark Wyland responds to a quote from Senator Darrell Steinberg, who referred to Wyland as a “Republican romantic.” Wyland explains that he has a great deal of respect for Steinberg and finds the quote to be flattering. Wyland also discusses the difficulty of making progress in politics and the public educating themselves in governmental matters. Politics ; Senator Darrell Steinberg ; Republicans ; Making progress in politics 0 4569 Goals as a politician Mark Wyland first reflects on the general public’s view on politics. He believes that the public does not understand politics the way they should and that many do not make informed decisions when voting. Wyland explains that it is important for the public to be critical of their government, and he provides an example of the importance of being critical of governmental spending. He also states that his goal as a politician is to provide better quality government and to help the people in becoming better informed citizens. He also states his concern over the media’s biased coverage of political matters. Politics ; Goals as a politician ; General public's view on politics ; Making informed voting decisions ; Being critical of government spending ; Media's biased coverage of politics ; Newspapers 0 5771 Objectivity in politics Mark Wyland discusses objectivity in politics. He views objectivity as an ideology, which he perceives as problematic because he believes it is too rigid of a view. Wyland explains that in his opinion, political knowledge and discussion should be more pragmatic. He also states that it is important to understand life’s complex problems and to use our power to solve them. Wyland also reflects on the importance of humility and on society coming together and respecting one another’s point-of-view. Politics ; Objectivity ; Objectivity in politics 0 6484 San Diego energy bills Mark Wyland discusses a few of the energy-related bills that he wrote. Wyland explains that one of these bills was in response to the blackout crisis of 2000 and SDG&amp ; E’s increased price of natural gas. The bill was eventually vetoed by Gray Davis. San Diego (Calif.) ; Energy bills ; Blackouts ; Blackout crisis ; SDG&amp ; E ; Public Utilities Commission ; Municipal Utility District ; Natural gas ; Gray Davis ; Politics 0 7050 Promoting oral history/ Oral history bills Mark Wyland discusses his efforts in promoting oral history in classroom curriculums. He first explains how he learned to appreciate oral history learning through his own grandfather and the grandfather from his host family in Germany and their talent for storytelling. Wyland also discusses the bills that he wrote to emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. These bills include creating curriculums that would incorporate oral history testimonies involving World War II, the Korea and Vietnam Wars, and the history of genocide. Oral history ; History ; Politics ; Classroom curriculums ; Oral history bills ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; The history of Genocide 0 8078 Romanticizing history/ Closing of interview Mark Wyland discusses the issue of romanticizing history in the classroom and in American society. Wyland uses the change over time in how Indigenous and Mexican history are taught in classrooms as examples. Wyland closes the interview by stating that politicians could not do their jobs without the help and support of the public. He adds that the American people deserve to feel good about who they vote into office, even if they do not agree with every decision that they make. History ; Romanticizing history ; Indigenous history ; Mexican history ; Classroom curriculums ; Politics ; Relationship between politicians and voters 0 Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree &amp ; Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing former California Senator Mark Wyland for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History project. Today is Monday, April 10th, 2023. The time is 2:32 PM and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Mr. Wyland, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.000 You're very welcome, Ryan. Please call me Mark. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:55.000 You got it, Mark. Appreciate that (both laugh). So obviously you have a very rich and impressive resume when it comes to education and politics, so definitely going to get into all of that during this interview. But I want to start off by asking you about your upbringing and your family background. Because I definitely believe that's important to bring up. First off, when and where were you born? 00:00:55.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Well, I was actually born in San Diego at Mercy Hospital, which is still there. It's part of the Scripps Network now. And Escondido at the time, I'm not sure it really had a full-service hospital, but I grew up in Escondido. My maternal grandparents had moved there in 1925 and they had a business, a plumbing business. And after the war, meaning World War II, my maternal grandfather, Brian Sweet, who had been an Escondido city councilman and also a supervisor for North County, he started a business with my dad and my uncle, and it was a lumber and building material supply business, pine tree lumber. It still exists. It's not in our family, but based in Escondido. And so, I grew up there, went to Escondido High School. When here we are in San Marcos--San Marcos didn't have a high school (laughs). 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Right. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:05:25.000 They went to Escondido. And then I went to college in Pomona College, which is in Claremont, California, where they have a group of colleges, the Claremont Colleges. I got interested in--studied International Relations, which is foreign affairs. I spent a year after college on a grant in Germany. And then I was in graduate school in New York studying to be a professor of international affairs. But I'd gone straight through and I, you know, it was kind of a time as a young man where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I'm not a city guy. I hated New York (laughs) because I grew up in rural Escondido, basically in an avocado grove. And so, I ended up--I got a lot out of that program--but I ended up working for the university. And then I worked for the City of New York on school construction of all things. And I was very close to my grandfather, and he wanted me to come back and join the family business. I thought I would never do that. But he had had a stroke and I was very close to him, and I was sick of New York, and I thought, “Well, I'll just interrupt the program.” You know, I can always go back, and something that was important and played out later: I wrote a master's thesis on a topic that really interested me. Basically, it was how people see the world, their worldview. And so I came back, I thought it would be here a year, and I ended up staying. And this was a business I'd worked in summers as a kid, and I'd done every job, you know, manual labor, loading lumber, driving forklifts, driving trucks. I'd done all that. And I ended up doing that for, my gosh, almost twenty years. And that also had a big impact on learning how to solve problems. And my dad, who's extraordinary, I learned a great deal from him--unfortunately, passed away fairly young, but I always had this interest in what we might call “public policy.” And I always had this interest in schools. And I had tried early on in that job, they had an opening on the high school board, not an election-appointed one. I tried to get that. I didn't get that (laugh). 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000 Right. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:12:11.000 And so, it turned out there was another opening on the Escondido Union Board, which is K-8. And I applied for that and got it. And the rest is history. And we can talk about that. And I know we have questions. I would like a shout out though to a few Escondido teachers who really made a big difference. And first, my fourth-grade teacher. Believe it or not, I lived in old, it was in town then--Central School. Mrs. Stevens, who told stories about when she was living in Mexico City and married to her husband who's Mexican. Really interesting stories. And I thought, you know, that's a different culture, and that's pretty interesting. And then I had this wonderful eighth grade teacher for social studies, Mrs. Von Bergen. It didn't hurt that I had a crush on her (Willis laughs). Oh my gosh. And in eighth grade in California, you spend a lot of time on the Civil War. And again, she really piqued my curiosity because I remember learning that it wasn't just simple. It was more complicated between the North or the South. And we actually--that was the first time I had to write a term paper, which I found later, I still have. And it's, you know, it's not very well done, but it's eighth grade (Willis laughs). And I realized between what I was trying to write was--this is really interesting: the North was industrialized and the South was agricultural, and there are all these other cross currents. And then when I was a sophomore in high school, the speech teacher, Clifford Summerall, he was invited to go into a class where students were giving oral reports, and I gave one. And I was pretty good at that. So, he asked me to join their debate team, and they had tournaments. And these are national. And all kinds of speaking ; humorous speeches. I've forgotten the categories. And they had a national topic, which I don't think they do that anymore. They still have speech, but it tends to be more impromptu where you learn about a whole bunch of things and they say, what do you think about--whatever it might be? And that era was a national topic, and the topic that first--yeah, I was fifteen, a sophomore, right, was “Should we strengthen NATO?” Well, that was sixty years ago, (Willis laughs), and it's as current today as it was then. And what made it--why it had such a big impact was they gave you the materials and you had the same topic for the whole year. So, while my friends are--and I don't mean to diminish this, you have to do it, but it's, you know, they're reading chapter eight and answering the questions and the tests on Friday kind of thing--I'm learning about post-World War II and the Soviet Union and their march and to those eastern European states, all this really adult stuff. And because at a tournament, they would assign you different sides--you're for or against--so you really had to learn about the issue. And what fascinated me was: it's not that simple. There are arguments for it and against it, and you don't know for sure how it's going to work out. A lot of the people doing debate, you could tell were going to be future lawyers. You know, I had my kind of sport coat and a tie, and I had to laugh in retrospect, some of them would, you know, their kids would come in like these dark, you know, suits, and they would try all these tricks. It was about winning. But for me it was like, “What's the answer?” And then the next year, the question was, “Should we increase federal aid to education?” Again, it's as current today as it was then. And so you had to look at a lot of analyses and statistics. So Cliff Summerall gave me a gift. He's still alive, he's in his nineties. I met him on a plane from Sacramento by sitting down to him--I'd forgotten. And I thanked him in some detail. And according to his wife, he was very moved. He gave me a real gift. And then I had a couple of other iconic teachers, anyone of a certain age will remember John Georges. English teacher who had been a Marine in the South Pacific and World War II. And a German teacher, Bob Maywald, who was German and had as a teenager gotten here after the war. So those are local people that really made a difference. But--and I ended up majoring in International Relations because really of that interest. 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000 Right. 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:21.000 And ended up spending the year in Germany, because I had a really good German teacher. So, when I got to college, that was pretty easy. 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 So, I can stop there. One of the thing I do want to add, when I ended up coming back here and being in the business ; the building material supply, especially lumber and plywood, mostly for houses, it's a commodity. And it's very competitive, because, how do you say, “Well, our two by four is better than their two by four?” And so, it has to be not only the quality of the lumber, but the service and that sort of thing. And prices change really fast, and you really have to be on top of it, but you have to--it's not a business you can just let go by. And so, every day you have to know what you're selling, if there's a problem, if your competitor is undercutting you, and you have to get on it to solve the problem. Many of our competitors went under because you--and so I learned that you have to solve problems. You can't ignore them, and you better get after it. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Right. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:14:02.000 So, I'll just stop there. I guess I had been doing that for, I don't know, twenty years, somewhere in that neighborhood. But I wanted to do something else. I was interested in education, and that's why I went for that school board appointment. 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:16.000 Yeah, I was going to ask for the family business that anybody within your family tried to push you to stay in that line of work, or were they more open to you doing other things? 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.000 My dad, had he lived, would've been very encouraging, I think. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000 Yeah. 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:35.000 And I learned that his dad, who had passed away before I was born, who I thought was just a quiet engineer type, turns out he was fascinated with international affairs. 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Oh. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:15:01.000 Would read newspapers. That was during the Roosevelt era. My--I was in the business with my cousin and I were running it, and his dad was still there, but my cousin and I were running that, and I think they thought I was crazy (both laugh). Which is what a lot of people think, you know, it's conflict and-- 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.000 Yeah. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.000 It's thankless, which it pretty much is. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:17.000 (laughs) Right, I was going to say, pretty much what it sounds like. So, but it really sounds like that business really helped shape who you became and it really helped you when it came to getting into politics. 00:15:17.000 --> 00:16:07.000 Yeah. What it did was, I always had this analytical bent and, you know, to go from college and think about a PhD and all that, you have to be very analytical. But what it added was: you better identify a problem and you better fix it, because if you wait it was very unforgiving. You know, there are businesses where, you know, it's just steady. And, and it wasn't like that. When I started out there were probably twenty lumber yards in San Diego County, and when we finally sold it in early 2000s there were basically two. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.000 Right. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:18.000 So. And so when I got into government, I wanted to solve problems, I wanted to analyze them and let's fix them. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:19.000 Right. 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.000 That's kind of hard to do (laughs). 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.000 Yeah. Right. Were you involved at all in that decision to sell the family business? 00:16:28.000 --> 00:17:36.000 Yeah, it was hard because, you know, the older generation who passed away, my cousin and I were running it, we--each of us had a sister who were not involved. And it's hard because he and I had grown up doing it. And our sisters, they weren't living locally, and they were all in favor of it. And this is very common in family businesses. You get different interests. So, but I was already in government, in the legislature, and he was frustrated and I had to say, “You're the guy there,” you know? So. But I actually think ultimately, actually, he regretted it. On the other hand, when it's a family business and you don't have people to hand it down to, and we had daughters and who--which is not a problem--but they weren't interested in it. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.000 Right. 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.000 So. 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:49.000 Right. Gotcha. So, going back, you said you spent a year in Germany. What was that experience like for you? 00:17:49.000 --> 00:20:07.000 Pomona had a semester abroad program. And in that program--which I think is the best way to do it, but it, these programs don't exist--you lived with a family for a month, and I happened to live with a family in southern Germany, a little town, Nördlingen, a little town in Bavaria. And I lived in a family that was the age of my grandparents and their daughter and their granddaughter, who was in her early twenties and was at the university. And it turns out that they had lived through World War I, he was in World War I, but never fought, but in the military ; went through hyperinflation in Germany ; the rise of Hitler, whom he strongly opposed. And he was working in the local government of this town, and they said, “Well, if you're working here, you have to sign up to join the Nazi party.” And it almost brings tears to my eyes. He wouldn't do it. And I thought so many times, you know, it's so easy for us in this country to say, “Well, they should do this or that.” And I've often wondered, would I have had the courage? All it was was signing a paper, they weren't making him do anything. Would I really have had the courage of my conviction? But he did. And it was during the war, and so they made him--Germany had taken over Czechoslovakia, so they made him move and go to Czechoslovakia. I mean, they kind of--that was his punishment. And he was there until the very end of the war. When they came back basically on a wagon, walking, he had lost so much weight, he said people he'd grown up with didn't recognize him. 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Wow. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:22:15.000 So, and I just really got along with them. And they had had a son who was drafted at the end of the war into the German military. He was only sixteen (years old). They were taking kids. And the last time they saw him, they argued about the war because they were against the war. They were against Hitler. And, whatever people may think, there were plenty who didn't like Hitler. And they argued and their son said, “Well, our lieutenant tells us that Führer has this new weapon and we're going to win.” He was a kid, right. Sixteen. And that was the last time they saw him. He was stationed near Berlin, and the Russians came in and, and so I think part of it was here was this young guy, I was only like nineteen or twenty (years old), and I think we got along and I think it was almost like here was their son that they lost. So we became really close. So that was my junior year. And then my senior year, my mentor--who later became famous--he had had a Fulbright, which was a scholarship, to Germany. And he said, “Mark, you should apply for this.” So I did. And lo and behold, I got it (laughs). So it was kind of a rough year. Because, again, I was graduated and I still didn't know what I wanted to do, but, so I spent the year in Germany studying German foreign policy. And that's one of the reasons I know so much about, a lot about Germany and the society and the culture and all that sort of thing. 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Right, right. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. So, it sounds like, as far as what motivated you or pushed you in the direction of politics, a lot of it sounds like it was self-interest to begin with, but I know you also mentioned that the Vietnam War had a huge influence as well. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? 00:22:34.000 --> 00:23:39.000 It did. I was of that era, which is only probably about five or six, seven years. And they, we had the draft which they ended, I think 1973 or something like that. And I was never in the service, but it affected the whole country, families, and it affected all the young men. And that's what I, what I ended up studying and writing about, and I'm still interested in the same thing, is: how people saw the world. How do you, in international affairs, the thing that's interesting to me is everyone wants peace, peace and prosperity, all over the world. That's what people want. 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000 Yep. 00:23:41.000 --> 00:28:03.000 And how did the decisions come about to say we need to engage militarily? And I have enormous respect for all those who fought there. And there are people from Escondido whose names are not along the wall in Washington, but in the park around the state capitol, there is a monument with the names of every Californian who was killed there. It's kind of emotional. Oscar Cruz, I'd grown up with Oscar Cruz ; he's on that wall. And I've forgotten his first name. One of the Durbin boys, I didn't know him, but they were a well-known family in Escondido, the Durbins. And I think what happened was we had kind of a Cold War mentality, which was: if you--they remembered so clearly what happened, the lesson that all those people make in those policies. You had Lyndon Johnson, you had (David) Dean Rust, the Secretary of State, you had McNamara, Secretary of Defense, you had the National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy. All of them were of the era where they had grown up in the ‘20s and then the Depression, and went from the Depression into World War II. And they knew the cost and they had lost people. And so, the lesson was the lesson of--and, I can't recall the British politician's name who earned peace in our time in Munich--and the lesson was just like, from Hitler, you have to fight them. You can't let them gain. And it's really what's playing out right now, even though it's not our people there, but in Ukraine with Russia. And I didn't think that lesson applied very well to Vietnam. But what I wrote about was Dean Rusk, who was Secretary of State, and all the different elements of his worldview. And what I think happens to people in general is you get a kind of a take on something. And pretty soon, well, that's just the way it is. You know, if I am, I could be a doctor--and, you know, there are these debates now about diets, for example, and you get--you know, these are smart, highly trained people, and they have, “Well, this is what you should eat or not eat,” or whatever it might be. And it's the same thing with solving all the problems that we have. And I worked a lot on education. “Well, this is what you do.” If you, if you want to teach, make sure English learners, and we have a lot of them in California who speak a different language at home. “If you want to make sure they learn English, this is the way you do.” And what I learned through those experiences is you can have some ideas, but take in new information and make sure that--and always be open. And in international affairs, you make decisions, but you don't know how they're going to turn out. And that's part of the interest and the tragedy of it. So, in the case of Vietnam--and I identified a dozen, maybe twenty different aspects of the worldview, how they saw things. And I don't think they really had thought it all through. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:38.000 Right. I know in the short amount of time in getting to know you, Mark, you are extremely passionate about education. And you were a member of the California State Assembly, and you served on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. You told me essentially that school board politics were just plain ugly. And that's putting it extremely lightly. What made school board politics just so ruthless? 00:28:38.000 --> 00:32:04.000 It was brutal. Brutal. Well, later on, when I represented half a million people in the (California State) Assembly and later on in the (State) Senate, a million people, which is more than a member of Congress, I dealt with many different school districts and cities. And what I learned about local government: they can vary greatly. You can have one city where everything is smooth. The city council, a school board, and you cross the line, and the city council and the school board are contentious. And at that point, on the Escondido Board, it was very contentious. And they had hired a new superintendent who was Hispanic. And then I think the district was probably two-thirds Hispanic. Now, it's probably at least three-quarters. And many, maybe most, came to school with either imperfect or no English. And they had hired this guy, but there was a group that opposed him. And they were organized and included some of the administrators and some of the people opposed me because I was appointed. And they thought their person was robbed. And it was very organized. And they had--it was organized politically to get rid of him. And we would have these meetings, you know, the state legislature, few people know this, but if you want to show up on a bill and you show up in the committee on the day a bill is heard, almost always, I mean, rarely it's not, they will ask, “Is there anyone else who wants to testify on this bill?” You can go right up there and testify. You can lobby all the people, send them letters, meet with them. But almost no one does it. But when it's in local government, they do. And we had some board meetings that, well, they were quite raucous. And I'll never forget one (laughs) where this--she came up and she wasn't--she had made some good points, and she had, and there's no dias. It was just same level. We're just behind the table. And she said, “I've got--you all deserve pink slips.” And she had little pink pieces of paper. And that was what you gave someone--you used to get that if you're going to get fired or laid off. And she plunked down in front of us a pink piece of paper saying, “You're fired.” You know, I can laugh about it, but it was awfully serious. And ultimately for a variety of other reasons we decided to part with that superintendent. But there were people working for the district who unfairly, I thought, suffered. And because they were seen as, you know, on the wrong side. 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Right. Did that at least prepare you though, for the next step in your career? Which we're going to get to next as far as— 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000 No. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.000 Being elected into the Senate? 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.000 No, because I couldn't believe it would be like that. 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Gotcha. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:35:22.000 I couldn't believe. But it was. And I'll tell you one funny story which illustrates it. I had a very contentious election. And this is important: we had two newspapers. This ties right into how we solve the problem of people feeling better about the government. We had The San Diego Union Tribune, and we had the North County Times, and they were robust, and they covered--The San Diego Union Tribune had, just on the editorial side, in addition to reporters, had a full-time editorial guy covering North County. And the North County Times did a great job. They covered school board meetings. They would editorialize about when we had these contentions about the school board. They had columnists who wrote about the school board. And people read the paper and they got a lot of information. And that's unfortunately no longer the case. So, what I--I had been very interested in this problem of Hispanic students learning English, because I knew their futures and the future of the state--you know, there are the immigration debates--but the fact is they were here. And I knew that their future and the future of the state depended upon them acculturating and being able to get good jobs, et cetera. So, I thought, “This can't be that hard.” And I thought--it's very naïve--I thought, “Escondido can be a model for the whole state.” Because it's small enough we can fix this. And that's kind of the business guy’s approach. Here's a problem, we need to jump in there and fix it. And it turns out in education, there are all these ideologies about how you teach reading and how you teach math. The business approach, which is, I think most people’s, is more pragmatic: I don't care. Let's just see what works. Well, it turned out, with all this contention, it was really hard. And I thought, and these mandatory tests were coming down from the state--which I thought were actually helpful--and I thought, “That's the place to fix this.” And that race was also brutal, that first race. But I don't need to, unless you want to, to get into it (laughs). 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000 (laughs) It's up to you. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:40:12.000 Well, I--you know, I ended up leaving graduate school with a master's and not going back for the PhD, but I think I got a PhD in practical politics. I was pretty naive. You know what, I'll tell you a little bit about that race, a little about that first year, and then maybe we can pause and figure out where you want to go next. I never--first of all, it was a primary. Primary of 2000 and the primary of 2000--and I was a Republican who had been a Democrat. And again, it was pragmatism. I just ended up agreeing with more of the Republican policies and fewer of the Democratic. But it was always pragmatic. What's the best answer to the problem? So, in that time--it's not the same now--but in that time, North County, and that's the district is, oh, 450--475,000 people. A congressional (district) then was around, I think 700,000 just to give--and a state senate (district) was just short of a million. And it was most of North County, big chunk of North County. And it was very conservative. So, whoever won the Republican primary was probably going to win the general election. So, I ended up starting out with a--I got some help to do this. You have to get help, really. And through that--consultant is what they call them. I ended up hiring a campaign manager who turned out to be a crook, a straight up crook! But he hadn't vetted him enough. So (laughs), so then, we--and there were seven or eight people in the race, which actually makes it easier because all you need is a plurality, not a majority. So, I ended up--that consultant, we parted ways and I got a very capable consultant. Some states just have a campaign manager--I had a consultant and a manager--and they design the race. And a key part of it is communication by mail. When you see TV ads, that's really expensive, and only a few campaigns have the money to do that. Same thing with radio. And in that era radio was going strong. So, you had radio, TV, ads, and mail. And so we were going along with issues that we thought were helpful. One's kind of a profile where you introduced the person. I was still reasonably well known in Escondido. They were still old guard. My family had been there forever. And I was at that point, president of the school board. And then, the then-assemblyman who was termed out, he didn't want me. He liked control. And he had picked someone that he thought he could control. So he was against me, which is hard because he raised money from lobbyists to go against me. And he discovered that when I was a Democrat, I had given money to Democrats. I'd given money to Al Gore in 1988. Well, in a primary you get the most intense voters. So having given money to Al Gore, to a good loyal Republican would be like in a Democratic race, having given money to Trump or Bush when they want Obama, it's like (Willis laughs) this can't work! 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000 Yeah. 00:40:13.000 --> 00:41:44.000 And you can't explain in a short campaign, you can't--the explanation was at that point--and I still believe now, you need two strong parties, which are reasonable. Well, Al Gore in 1988, I thought was pretty reasonable. I was a Republican, but I also wanted a reasonable Democrat. And he was running as a moderate Southern Democrat (laughs). Well, you can't explain that to people because it's ten, twelve years later. And by then he had changed. So anyway, it cut down my margin and I managed to squeak out a victory. Only because they--if they'd had more money, and money does play, people hate it, but it's like marketing. It's like, if you represent Coca-Cola and I've got “New Great Coke,” and you have a million dollars of marketing and name ID, and everyone likes Coke, and I've got a little amount to say, “Hey, this new stuff is really good,” it doesn't matter. And so they didn't have enough, and I squeaked it out. I think I got less than twenty percent of the vote. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Oh, wow. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000 I barely made it. And there was another guy on that race who was the mayor of Encinitas, Jim Bond. And he was on the ballot as James Bond. And the James Bond movie had just come out like few months before. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.000 Oh man. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.000 (laughs) And I, so I just barely squeaked it out. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Gotcha. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:22.000 And I was not prepared. It was intensely political, more than I expected, but I wasn't really prepared for it. 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:40.000 That's fascinating. So as far as the Senate, you represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Is that correct? (Wyland nods) So what was that moment like when you got into the Senate? Do you remember how you felt? 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000 Well, yeah. Let me give you, let me go back a little bit. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000 Yeah. 00:42:45.000 --> 00:49:26.000 Because I could talk about growing up in Escondido in that era for a long time, but we've got hundreds, if not thousands of my era, who can tell you that story. This is what's a little different. So, when I got to the Assembly, a friend of mine in the Assembly, but he had been there, I was new--later, a friend of mine in the Senate (Tony Strickland), now the Mayor of Huntington Beach, he came to meet me and we, he tells this story, which is true, and he said, “Well, Mark, what are your interests?” And I said, “Education.” And he kind of chuckled and said, “Well, what about education?” And I said, well, I say it was a five-point plan. He says, it was like a ten-point plan that I said, “I've got this plan.” And he started to laugh and he said, “You don't understand. Education is controlled by the Teacher's Union. And whatever they say goes.” And I did say “Yes, but they haven't seen the power of my ideas.” I used that phrase, “The power of my ideas.” Where upon Tony, Tony Strickland, he just started rolling on the floor laughing because he realized I had no idea how it worked. And what I learned was, local government is very different. Once you get in state government, it's just like, organized like Congress. There's parties, there's caucuses, legislative committees, floor--it's set up like that. And I always thought, you know, I'd been a Democrat. Everyone wants the same thing. Good jobs. Well, it--there are party differences. Not everything. Maybe half of the bills pass, everyone votes, which people don't understand enough of. It's not people like that all the time. You have to work together in the same building. But I did find it was much more partisan than I had expected. You know, “Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting. Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting.” So much so. It's a two-year session in the Assembly. So I ran in 2000, served in 2001, came back for my second year in 2002. And I'll never forget going into the basement of the building and then getting in the elevator to go up to my office. And my heart literally sank. It's a sensation I had never had. And I thought, “I hate this. I cannot keep doing this. I worked so hard to get this. I just hate this.” We aren't trying to solve problems. It's just the partisan--and some people in these bodies are very--there's a range of partisanship. Some are very partisan, some (unintelligible), but what happened that year is I happened to have a chief of staff who really understood politics and how politics works. And he also was, he'd probably deny it, but he was an amateur historian and they didn't have kids yet. And we would spend probably an hour, hour and a half, after work every night talking about history and Vietnam and all these things. And I learned about politics and got more engaged in politics, because I was ready to quit. So that's how that happened. And then in 2006, the Senator who had held that seat, Bill Morrow, he was retiring because of term limits. But before then, around 2005, there was a congressman here, Duke Cunningham, Randy “Duke” Cunningham, North County. And this is uncommon. I know a lot of people think it's common, it's uncommon: he was fraudulently selling his vote. He was on a relevant committee, appropriations for defense. And he had a contractor that basically, “If you give me this much money, I'll make sure you get this contract.” And I really want to emphasize as much as people think, “Oh, it's all about money, they're crooked.” No, they really aren't. And long and short of it is he was forced out. And a lot of people were saying, “Well, you need to run for that seat.” Which many people have told me, I would've pretty much walked into. But it was an identity crisis, a midlife crisis, because we'd sold our business. And I thought, “Well, if I don't win, what am I going to do?” And plus, my interest in education, that's really a state issue. They will talk about education at the federal level. The reality is the federal government has very little to do with education. It's primarily local and state. Long and short of that is I decided to stay with the state. And you know, sometimes gone back--think well, I should have done that. But I stayed with the state, and I walked into the seat because my potential opponents were running for the congressional seat. So, I walked in. 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.000 Yeah. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:51:08.000 And the Senate is different from the Assembly, just like the United States Senate is different from Congress. But it took me a little adjustment because there's a new group of people. But there's only forty. So the United States Senate is a hundred, and you really get to know those people. So I continued, I worked on a lot of different things, but education was a key part. And then it's four years. So the reelect was 2010, and I almost quit then. I only told my family, I didn't tell anyone else because if you say you're leaving, it's--you're a lame duck. It's a mad rush. And I just thought, it's so hard to get--so hard to make this better. And I had, and we can talk about them, things I worked on. And it's, to me, they were so obvious. And it's not because of malice or anything, it's just change, even positive change, it's just hard to get people--especially if it's different than what they're accustomed to. But ultimately, I did run again and so I stayed there until 2014. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:13.000 Right. And then you hit, you had hit your term limit at 2014, correct? 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.000 Right. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:20.000 If you had the ability to continue on, would you have or would you have gone now regardless? 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:40.000 That's a really good question. I think I might've done one more term. I think, well, I'm idealistic and you read what the Senate leader said about me. 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.000 Yes. I wanted to get to that. 00:51:41.000 --> 00:52:56.000 I keep thinking there's got to be a way, (both laugh) you know, there's just got to be a way. So, I might've done one more term. I think something that's very common with people of my age. So, I'm seventy-six now, and we think of retirement depending somewhere in the sixties. It can be early or young sixties or later. But from my friends, I would say a significant percentage want to keep working. Maybe they'd (work) not as much or as intensely, but there's kind of a desire to contribute. And I'm still on a--I'm emeritus now--but I ended up along that period of time being involved with Pomona, the alumni group, and then the Pomona Board. And I'm emeritus now, and they allow me to attend meetings and talk. So, I would like to have done more. 00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:04.000 Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell you had that ambition, even when you thought about quitting, you were like, “No, there's more to be done. I know I can make a difference.” 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:33.000 Yeah. And one of the things, I worked on a--I worked on a lot of things in education, but because of that time in Germany and Europe, I really--no system is perfect, but Americans don't know enough about how Europeans do things. And it's frustrating when people kind of knock Europe. They're our cousins (laughs). 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000 Yeah. 00:53:34.000 --> 00:54:57.000 We, you know, our society and culture and our government to some extent comes from that tradition. And I think it's important, not necessarily to copy, but well, how do they do this? Well, how do they do this? And in education it's not perfect, but they have one system that works really well, and that's apprenticeships. I worked on that. And there are misconceptions about that. And Americans, Americans will say things like, “Well, yeah, you know, plumbers make a lot of money.” And by the way, my grandfather was a plumber. That was his first business. So, I'm a--you know, I worked with those folks when I was in the lumber business and I did that work when I was--but apprenticeships are everything! Everything. Bankers are--start off as apprentices, realtors, insurance people, people managing resorts. Probably eighty, eighty-five percent of the jobs are various types of apprenticeships. And they give you training. And then if you have a facility and you're pretty good at, they give you more training. And the sky's the limit. And for a lot of reasons I thought we needed to develop more of that. 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Yeah, I completely agree. I know we discussed that in our pre-interview, how the United States is pretty much completely different than all the other countries out there. They have that focus of, “Hey, let's do an apprenticeship.” We have vocational schools. Of course we do have vocational schools here in the U.S. but we don't seem to put as much emphasis on them. Why do you think that is? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:58:12.000 Well, I'll tell you what the history is. First, Europe. Europe, starting in the Middle Ages developed guilds. Weavers, obviously technology moved beyond the people who wove, did weaving of cloth. And there was a great deal of respect. So, if someone was skilled at this ; a goldsmith, a baker, whatever it was, there was appreciation for that skill. And once the university got started, and they had medieval, you know, first in the early Dark Ages, it was in the monasteries. But then when universities got started, they were very old. But the modern university came out of Germany. They didn't have science and engineering. That was not common. It's all, it all started in Germany. Even in things like theology and archeology and all those things. And the same thing with all these various other jobs. And they were accustomed to, if you have a certificate, you really--there's a lot of respect. I think what happened in America, I mean it's a longer story, but the short of it is we had those, and we had in California, all the high schools were known as comprehensive high schools. So you didn't have a separate vocational school. So every high school--it was same at Escondido, same for all the high schools--you had a whole range. You had courses for people who were for sure going to go to college, those who weren't sure, and a lot of vocational courses. But there was not, it was sort of like, well, college somehow is like the ideal. But those vocational courses were great because there were a lot of great boys, and boys in particular, who didn't want to sit there and listen to a teacher talk all--they wanted to do things. And we had many agricultural classes, we had--before computer aided design, you could take four years of drafting. You had machine shop, you had auto shop. Well, it's not like they became auto mechanics. They learned practical engineering. 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.000 Yeah. 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:29.000 I mean, in auto shop they learned how machinery works. They learned a lot of physics. They learned the chemistry of combined--they learned all those things. And so, they could sit through the boring class because they had their cool project they were working on. 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.000 Yeah. 00:58:32.000 --> 00:59:27.000 I think it was unintentional but misguided that they dismantled that because it was driven by misguided administrators who thought, “Well we need to just, it needs to be all college.” College doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They will use the word, they don't have it. It's an American invention. And they don't understand it. And even in some cases, like in Spanish, there's “colegio,” which it translated to college. It's not, it's more like a high school. And in Germany, if you use the word “high school,” which in German is “Schule” (technische Schule), we think high school, “Schule” is like a technical university. It's called a technical high school. 00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:28.000 I see. 00:59:28.000 --> 01:00:27.000 And so, there's all this misunderstanding. But what we did was, the message became for those young people who weren't academically inclined--but are very capable and smart--the message was, “Well, unless you want to do this college thing, you know, you're not really, yeah, it's not so great, you know, if you have to do that.” That's so completely misguided. And so you get right here at San Marcos High School down the road--I drove by today because of this traffic mess--I had a buddy who was the soccer coach there, and he told me one day, he said a bunch of his kids came to him and said, “Coach, they're closing the machine shop.” And the kids said, “We only come to school to play soccer and for machine shop.” 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.000 Yeah. 01:00:28.000 --> 01:01:17.000 There's a lot of great healthy--it applies to girls and women too, but in a different way--healthy boys who--they, just, they're not the academically inclined. But to give you an illustration with machinery--and I've been in the factory in Switzerland where they make high-end machinery--you can start out as a machinist and end up as a mechanical engineer. And they train you and they train you. And so, I think the combination of this misguided notion that everyone has to go to college, we end up where we are. 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:18.000 Right. 01:01:18.000 --> 01:02:44.000 And then we end up with a problem of how do you finance it? The biggest debt we have in this country outside of home mortgages, it's not auto loans, it's not credit card. It's student loans! It's over a trillion dollars. Yesterday the brother of my niece's husband, I may have been telling you, he's moved out here. He's a chiropractor. He has an outrageous student loans. That doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They have this, the system is stripped down. But if he were in one of those other--let's just take the European countries--he might have a small loan, but it'd be very small. And it's not just higher taxes, it's because the system is different. So I did lots of work and lots of bills. You know, you have to take a slice of it. So, one of them, for example, was that every school district had to have a council that advises them and builds connections between various industries and the kids. So, that's my pitch. And if you survey Americans, they agree. 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.000 Right. 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:55.000 But it's really hard to make those changes in the school. 01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:09.000 We're forcing a lot of these kids to just have to figure it out on their own. Because a lot of them, when they're going through the K-12 system, they're like, “Well, this isn't for me. I already know this.” But especially once you get to high school, it's all about college prep, college prep. 01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:10.000 Right. 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.000 Taking these tests. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.000 Right. 01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:22.000 And I know for me, when I was going through high school, that was demoralizing because I was never a good test taker to begin with. I was never good at math. 01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:23.000 Right. 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:24.000 Never good at science. 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.000 Right. 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:28.000 And they put so much emphasis on these tests. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:29.000 Right. 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.000 And if you don't do well on them, you feel like a failure. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:32.000 Exactly. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.000 And you’re not smart. And that’s not true. 01:03:34.000 --> 01:06:21.000 That's what I'm talking about. And you know, I don't want to leave the young women out. And women probably understand that better. And I'll give you an example though with young women, two of them. But I think with boys in particular, I'm going to start saying controversial stuff (Willis laughs). I think boys are wired to go out and do stuff. They're just like, solve a problem. you know, hunt, you know, (laughs) just, and I think I was lucky because I was--things came easily enough to me. A lot of school I didn't like. But it came easily enough that just like with German, it came easy, so it wasn't that hard. But, and so that's the problem. It's demoralizing. And they wonder why there's such a dropout rate. And they--why the use of drugs and all this stuff is a--particularly younger males. You need to be validated, like you're making a contribution. And in these other countries, they have that. Now, one of the things that a lot of Americans don't like, they think, well then you're at a young age, you don't know what you want to do. And you're plugged into something. It's not that simple. I'll give you an example. Young woman who's trained and you start fifteen, sixteen, where you're going to school three days a week and then three afternoons a week and two full days as an example, you're in the business. So, she was trained in an auto dealership. First off, you're paid. So, you're sixteen. It's not a lot of money, but you're paid for that. And you learn all these skills. A lot of older people might say, “Wow, they don't even know how to answer the phone.” You learn all those skills. You learn how to write a business letter. You learn if the manufacturer sends a letter about a defect or something, you learn how to understand it, how to respond. You learn the economics of it. Well, our salesman paid a commission. How does that work? Inventory. How do we do that? By the time she's nineteen, she's ready to go. She understands that business backwards and forwards. But she doesn't have to say, “Well, my career, the rest of my life is doing that.” She's got all kinds of skill sets that you can go all sorts of places. 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:22.000 Exactly. 01:06:22.000 --> 01:08:01.000 Nursing, I worked hard on nursing. We have so many--mostly young women, a few young men--who would be great in every aspect of healthcare. And what do we do? All we do is make it hard. All we do is make it hard. And we made it worse. It used to be in an earlier era, nursing schools were affiliated with hospitals. And it was a combination of hands-on and classroom. So, if you applied to nursing school, and they had dormitories, you know, it's after a high school and a combined, classroom and clinical. So, you know, after six months, if you couldn't stand the sight of blood, you learned that and you didn't have to continue. And you're working all the time in a clinical setting. Plus learning the science. Well then we decided we have to upgrade it--has to more time in the classroom. Well, here's what happens. Whether it's at Palomar (College), and CSUSM’s (California State University, San Marcos) doing a pretty good job, I will guarantee you the freshman class comes in and there will be many times more kids who want to go into that. Well, we don't have the slots. And in those other countries, you can get that slot and you can be the most sophisticated OR nurse and you've done this and you can do it. And then you, if you want to, you move up. If you don't want to, you go into something else. 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:02.000 Right. 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:14.000 So, the part of the reason I'm so passionate about it is it's horrible to see these young people discouraged or demoralized. We need them (laughs). 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.000 Right. That's our future. 01:08:16.000 --> 01:10:31.000 And, and I totally understand why young women will come from training in another country. I totally get it. They get here, it's their lives go up. But what about our young women? And some of them are coming from difficult backgrounds and all they need is some assistance. A little more time. And they'll be great. And instead, you talk about spending money? Two friends of mine had wives who were nurses. Each of them went to the four-year undergraduate (school). Liberal arts. It's got its place. I'm a beneficiary of it. It's got its place. But then after that, and all the money, money society spent, money they spent, loans. Then they have all this intense nursing training, and then we don't have enough opportunities. So, and one of my doctors--you get to my age, you're in doctor's offices all the time and--meet this young man. He wants to be a PA, physician's assistant. Well, guess what? There are only a few programs, one's at UC Davis (University of California, Davis). I know that, because buddy of mine was a professor there. Why don't we have that? Every state school should have that! Because the people who are going to be treating people more and more are going to be physician's assistants and nurse practitioners. And let's talk about doctors. We're--there's now a shortage around here. Because there's a lot more of us in my baby boomer era. What's the limit? The limit is why--you tell me why the University of California, you can get a PhD. I don't mean to pick on them (Willis laughs). I love the UC, but why do we really want an administration that's practically as big as the student body? And I read the other day, Stanford's administration has more people than they do students. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:32.000 Oh, wow. 01:10:32.000 --> 01:11:55.000 And all the data show these administrations keep growing. And how come we don't have expanded medical schools? In 20--I think it was 2010 or 2012, we had a new senator from Riverside. And I was talking to him and I said, “What are you interested in?” He said, “My number one goal is to expand the medical school at UC Riverside (University of California, Riverside).” And it was kind of the reverse of what my friend Tony had done years before I chuckled and said, “That's not going to happen.” “Well, we need it.” I said, “You're right. And I will help you. And I'm on the budget subcommittee for education. I'm on the education committee, I will help you. But you just need to understand, when you come across that huge bureaucracy and you say, “Does every campus have to be able to grant a PhD in medieval French literature at every campus? Or should we expand the medical school?” And maybe we give them an incentive. If they agree to work in underserved communities for a few years, why don't we make it free? It should be free. 01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:56.000 Yes. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:07.000 Why shouldn't they be graduating and saying, you know, “I love family practice, but I'm going to make a lot more money doing this.” It's crazy. 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:09.000 Yeah. No, I'm right there with you. 01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.000 I'm sorry, Ryan. I get wound up. 01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:11.000 No (laughs). 01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:12.000 It brings it all back. 01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:58.000 No, it's a great conversation. I feel like we could talk about it for hours, but I did want to go back to your time in the Senate, near the end, in particular, when you had to retire. I want to talk about something a little bit more positive. Senator Darrell Steinberg, who I know you have a lot of respect for, he was quoted in saying, “Senator Wyland, I see you as the Republican romantic. You are somebody who constantly strives to make the world what it should be instead of what it is. You are a special member of the Senate, partly because you are unique.” How does that quote make you feel, first off? And in your opinion, what made you unique? 01:12:58.000 --> 01:14:00.000 Well, first of all, some Republicans say, “What do you mean, he is a Democrat!” Look, I have a lot of respect for Darrell. And in some ways you get to know people better even than their friends and family do. Because he really knew me. He'd seen me, you're working together all the time. We'd gone on a trip to Switzerland and Germany to look at these programs. And so I think it's one of the nicest compliments. There were some others in those tributes I really appreciated because I think he did understand. And I plead guilty. He's right. I can't--I'm pragmatic, but I can't, just can't say, “Well, that's the way it is. We can't fix it.” I keep thinking, “You know, we got to--we can make this better (laughs).” 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:01.000 Yeah. 01:14:01.000 --> 01:16:09.000 So, it made me--it first of all blew me away because every year when people retire, it's every election year, there's tributes. There's only few retiring, and there's a session where people speak about the member. And I was totally unprepared. From all the comments, I just, I was completely unprepared. So, it was a wonderful compliment. The downside of it is, and it's same thing in that column that Dan Walters wrote, well, that's great, but how do you make progress? (Both laugh) You know, it's--progress is tough and it's not--when I talk about these things, I'm optimistic. I do see the glass as half full. It's kind of a--I have a pretty high standard, and I think we just have to keep working at these things. And something that's really important. People are so cynical about politicians: it's not that easy. And at some point I would like to talk a little bit about my project because the biggest challenge is people know less. And so when they know less, it's harder to hold government accountable. And it's not their fault. I have friends who say, “Well, they're just lazy. They could find it on the internet.” It's really hard. It needs to be easy to understand how well you're being governed. But I'll tell you that and some of those other comments, especially from the other side, the other side, the other party, were--I really appreciate it. 01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:26.000 Yeah, I imagine. So that kind of is a great segue onto the next thing I wanted to address, which is something you mentioned to me is that the general public does not understand politics the way that they should. Can you elaborate on that? 01:16:26.000 --> 01:23:42.000 Yeah, Ryan, there's a lot of research that would illustrate this better. But my--here's my direct experience. When I first ran in 2000 and for several years after that, most people got a print newspaper. It wasn't that expensive. And most people when they established a household or got in their twenties or mid-twenties, got a paper. And the papers did a good job at reporting on what government was doing. And most of the reporting was fairly, I would say, fairly objective. They had different editorial policies. You know, one may be more conservative, one more liberal, but even then, that was within a group. And I say this as a guy started reading The New York Times when I lived in New York, so I'm kind of a newspaper addict. And the North County Times would publish probably--they'd have two pages full of letters. So, people felt they could weigh in and people would read the letters and respond. And for a whole bunch of reasons, the economics change, the advent of the internet and social media, less advertising, newspapers are dying. The North County Times (is) no more. So, the entire big chunk of North County is--there's some coverage and they try in The Coast News. And there's some--a little bit in the Solana Beach, maybe a little bit North, Encinitas-Del Mar area. But if you're living in San Marcos or Escondido, it's a news desert. How do you know when it comes time to vote for a city council person or a school board person, or a Palomar College trustee? How do you know? And so, I think the way to change this and to change some of the anger that we have and the demonization where our side's good, the other side's evil--and you know, I'm a Republican, but I see this on both sides. And they'll take the most outrageous person on the other side. And all the outrageous things they say, well, look like if you take Congress, and we'd be the same thing if they cover the state. That's a lot of people. There's always going to be some people who (laughs) you know, who will say outrageous things, some of them purposely because of the coverage. So, I think the solution of my project, I call it civic knowledge, it could be civic information, it could be any name is--I want a way for someone, and it has to be partly on the internet to say, “How much are we spending in the state? I read there's a twenty-five-billion-dollar deficit. Where's the money going? Where'd it come from?” And it becomes so common as you as like googling. And there it is. Historically, easy. It's not that complicated with pie charts and color. Holy cow. I had no idea that half of the money we're spending on is education. And by the way, are we measuring--are these kids learning to read? What skills do they have? How come thirty years ago we spent a huge amount on transportation and now we're not spending any? No wonder we have all these poorly maintained roads. I think it just--here's a national one. The whole issue of Social Security and Medicare, everyone who knows this, which is—knows, which is every member of Congress, all the staff, all the experts, the average people know that it has to be fixed because the--we're not generating enough money. We're paying out more in social security to me and my generation than we're taking in. Well, there's extra there, but it's diminishing as more and more people get older. There aren't enough people of your age who are chipping in. And by the way, they may send you something, but the money you send in is not going to Ryan Willis in his account. They keep track of it, because you will get it. The idea you will get it. But it's going to Mark Wyland and his buddies who are retired. So the reason, the underlying reason I think it doesn't get fixed is it's too tempting. If you and I are running and I say--you say, “Hey, we got to fix this. Look at my generation. I deserve it. I've been chipping in, my employer's chipping in, we got to fix this, got to reform it.” But the people don't understand we need to. My temptation, it's human: man, if I say, “Ryan wants to take away Medicare and take away Social Security and make you after retire at seventy-five (years old), I can win.” And so that's where we are. So no one touches it. And so, what my project is, everyone won't do this, but if enough people learn it (Social Security) has to be fixed, then instead of letting me get away with that and demonizing you, it's like, “Hey, Wyland, at least Ryan knows there's a problem. And he's talking about solutions. What's yours? Just rather than attacking him because you're pretending like there isn't one.” You see what I'm saying? What I'm trying to do is something I've wanted to do for forty years, which is change the nature of politics where enough people, it doesn't have to be everyone, just enough people, ten, fifteen percent, twenty, wonderful. Who know enough that pretty soon, instead of just these attacks, it's “Okay, here's the problem. What's your solution?” 01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:44.000 Yeah. 01:23:44.000 --> 01:23:46.000 You see what I'm saying? 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:51.000 Right. I know you said that your mission really is obtaining better quality government. 01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:52.000 Yeah. 01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:55.000 And how do you do that? People need to be more informed. 01:23:55.000 --> 01:24:57.000 And it's the people that can hold them accountable. Because--look, I was a Republican. I am a Republican, but, and it's generally, and I have most of my oldest friends are Democrats, we need to get rid of this stuff (mashes fingers towards each other, indicating conflict). It's like, how do we solve this problem? And I'm more interested in, at the end of the day, not just, I may think, “Well, this is the best solution,” but I'm more interested in the gift I would like to give is let's have a discussion where we actually understand what the issues are. And you know what, I may say Social Security is better if you make--if people have to work another couple of years and you may say, “No, we should do this, or tax--the company has to pay more.” I don't care about that part as much as, “Hey, we're talking about how we solve it.” 01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:58.000 The discussion. 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:46.000 And that's how you get better government. Sadly, the newspapers used to help us. They don't. TV's a joke. Boy, I'm starting to say things I might regret (Willis laughs). Look, I get local TV news, I understand it's a business. It gets worse and worse and worse. If you even have the first segment as real news, you're lucky. And all of them used to have reporters who knew government. Same thing with--I'll say this about the UT (The San Diego Union Tribune) and I know some of those people--they don't have enough reporters who actually understand government and as it declines and declines, and then they say, “Well, we're about this. We're about focusing on this group.” 01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:47.000 Yeah. 01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:51.000 I heard one of their key people there, I just could hardly believe it, say, “Well, we want to write stories about, you know, instead of old white men, we're going to focus on what this group or that group or my group.” And I'm thinking, tell me who doesn't want a good job, a good education for their family, a reasonably safe environment, who doesn't want to sit in traffic?” I mean, everyone has the same thing. Everyone wants healthcare. Some people have a bigger problem than others. We need to work on it. It's like (laughs)--and they don't know that. And they will write these endless stories about--that avoid--and because solving the problems is where it gets hard. That's where the hard work is. And that's where you realize, “Gosh, it's not as simple as I thought.” 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:58.000 But with your project you feel like it can explain it to people and give them a platform. 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:49.000 I can give you succinctly--we don't think twice about googling, right? And a friend of mine had this experience just recently-- I've been talking to, because I'm trying to get the fund(ing)--I actually have a nonprofit I set up years ago: the Institute for Civic Education. And you could do it as a nonprofit or you could even do it, you could sell it to libraries and things like that for research. It's not that hard. If you--people who are informed, educated, if you say, “Well, you know, there's these fights about defense and Social Security. Well, where do they spend the money?” They don't know. 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:50.000 Yeah. 01:27:50.000 --> 01:29:51.000 I was talking to a friend of mine, highly educated guy, retired now, when I lived in New York, he was a pretty big-time business guy. And we're--but he's lifelong Democrat. But we, you know, we didn't used to have those divisions, you would joke, you'd kid, “Ah, you know, he is a right-wing, crazy, ah—" you like, it didn't matter (laughs). And I'm trying to get, we need to come together as a country. And I remember he said, “You know, I've lived in New York for forty years. I couldn't tell you,” I--he gets The New York Times every day. Maybe The Wall Street Journal. He said, “I couldn't tell you where the money is spent.” It's that simple. And they've got major problems. Look at the billions we're spending on the bullet train. I know trains, I knew more about that than anyone in that entire building, the legislature. Because I'd lived in New York and I'd taken it every day and I'd lived in Europe. And there's only a few places where they make sense here. In some places. So, because we no longer have the newspapers, I think if we get this information out there, you can market it, not necessarily for money, but--and pretty soon it's in social media, and instead of someone saying, “well google it” Hey, check out Civic Knowledge, check out Civic Information on that. We're debating this or that. Check it out. Who--and it has to be objective, it cannot be partisan. And it has to include solutions across the political spectrum in their own words. We were talking just before we started about an interview on 60 Minutes, which is what this would not be, where it was clear the intent was to do what I call “gotcha journalism.” 01:29:51.000 --> 01:29:52.000 Yeah. 01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:34.000 “I'm going to come up with a question that's going to make you sweat and everyone's going to see, you know, how horrible you are.” No. They need to, in their own words, they need to be exposed to the solution. I guarantee you what people will see is, it's harder than they thought. And it's a kind of a way of maturity when you become an adult and you realize--and people tend to be more pragmatic and let's see if we can move the ball forward. 01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:53.000 Yeah. No, definitely. So, along those lines, looking at politics today, I know you've expressed to me that one of the core issues, I mean, I know there's a lot, but one of the core issues with voters, and it's been problematic for decades, is not knowing who they're even really voting for. 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:54.000 Right. 01:30:54.000 --> 01:30:55.000 Who are these people? 01:30:55.000 --> 01:30:56.000 Right. 01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:02.000 And many voters either don't do their due diligence or they don't really know where to start. 01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:03.000 Right. 01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:09.000 When it comes to researching these people and they really just go off of endorsements. 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:10.000 Right. 01:31:10.000 --> 01:31:13.000 And relying on their own emotions essentially. 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.000 Right. Exactly. 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:17.000 I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. 01:31:17.000 --> 01:32:22.000 Well, you nailed it, Ryan. And it's a change in a short period of time. That's what's so staggering. I mean, when I started in the early 2000s, you could get (laughs), I'm kind of an addict, but I was getting six or seven papers a day. I was getting four or five California papers. And journalists, they, and it's--their problem is it's a business. And their business went away once advertising moved to the internet and people no longer--it was no longer part of a rite of passage as you got older and formed a household, well, you get the paper--and maybe initially, and it's still true today--the guy, the first thing he's going to look at is the sports. And I know people still subscribing to the print version of the UT which is going down, who are disgusted with other parts, but they're reading the sports-- 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:23.000 Or the comics. 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Or the comics (laughs). I'm a fan of the comics. 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Same here. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:27.000 I read the comics every day. 01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:28.000 Yep (laughs). 01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:29.000 Certain ones I really like. 01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:30.000 Right. 01:32:30.000 --> 01:35:10.000 And there's a lot of wisdom in the comics (laughs). And so it's an art form. So, I think that's made it harder. And I have a friend who was a pretty big-time newspaper publisher in other parts of the country. And we talk about this a lot. And I'm trying to say this is the only solution I know because when I started here, both the North County Times and the UT interviewed virtually every candidate, every candidate, if running for city council in El Cajon or Escondido or San Marcos, they interviewed you. And when I first sat down with the UT Editorial Board, it was seven or eight people and they apologized that they weren't all there. They had a separate editorial specialist on national security issues, which made sense. Here we are in the Navy town for crying out loud, the Navy and the Marines. And so, the only way I know to help change that and bring people more together is to have a simple way of seeing this. And if it's fully fleshed out, you can have a simple summary and then you can add more detail. So, if you want to know, well, how come we don't have more doctors? It's not hard. You figure out, well, they have to have residencies, who controls the number of residencies? Medicare. Medicare controls that. So, you ask your congressman, “Why don't you expand residencies for medical schools here?” Okay. You see, you can ask the governor this, and every legislator, you can't tell me. And if you saw the numbers and how big that bureaucracy is, you wouldn't believe it. You're telling me that you don't have enough room for doctors. Give me a break. Come on. The CSUs and the community colleges ; when Palomar has a three quarter a billion-dollar bond issue, and I said to them, “Aren't you going to expand your facilities for people who want to go into nursing?” “Well, you know.” Come on. I get why you're saying that, but this is something society needs. 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:11.000 Yep. 01:35:11.000 --> 01:36:11.000 So, I said yesterday at Easter gathering, a family gathering, this came up and my sister's approach was, “Come on, people are lazy. They won't check it out.” Well, au contraire, (laughs) I think if people get accustomed to it, people check out their Google all the time. If they get used to it and it's objective, it can't be seen--so, if you portray someone's view on something: so-and-so introduced a bill to do this, if they call up and say, “Wait a minute, that you--you need to read it, that my intent is this.” I'm going to put exactly what they say. It has to be reliable. And I think it's one of the few ways out of this mess we’re in. 01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:30.000 Yeah. No, I agree. You mentioned it being objective. And I find that interesting because I know in one of the classes I have taken as a graduate student, one of the professors used to always ask, “Is it even possible to be objective?” What are your thoughts on that? 01:36:30.000 --> 01:48:04.000 You put your finger on a huge issue. And I want to think carefully before I go down this road. But I'm going to say it straight out anyway. I'm getting wound up. This ideology--and I'll say straight up, I can't stand ideology because I'm not talking about values or world views. Those are fine. But I define ideology as a rigid view. “It's only this way.” And new information bounces off. “It's this way.” And if I decide if there's some new issue, what my position is, what does my ideology say? I think it needs to be more pragmatic. And an ideology that has grown up in academia, which has had, I believe a really pernicious effect started in the 1970s in literature with postmodernism. And it used a couple of French philosophers, Jacque Derrida, and the other one escapes me. And ultimately developed--conservatives say it's Marxism and socialism. Not really. I think it took something that's real. Human beings have a history of--there are people who take advantage of others. And I think the promise of Western civilization--we need to go beyond the U.S.--is we confront things and try to fix them over time. Freedom of speech is part of it. Well, as that developed--this is my view--into all the iterations with all the terms. And it certainly happened in history. And it went from social history to, you know, critical theory and all the aspects of critical theory. And then to the deconstruction of text because--which applied to law. “Well, it doesn't really mean this because if you deconstruct it, it's yet one more example of those with power, especially white males, trying to oppress those without power.” And like with most insights, there's example--I mean, and most of this stuff that is anti-the West in anti-United States never looks at the sweep of history. I actually did a bill on this. It never looks comparatively, it never looks what happened within, oh, there's a name for it, Aboriginal groups. And with modern, whether it's anywhere in Europe, encountering less-advanced societies, it's always there. And the promise of western civilization is that we've worked hard to overcome a lot of those things and to build in tolerance. So, the problem I have with it is, it doesn't give you solutions. So I'll give one last example. Because I, you can see, I can go on. A professor I know has won many teaching awards and always liked to yank my chain. So, we're at a conference and he at a table, another professor and I am there and he comes up and says, “Well, you know, Mark, capitalism has hurt and damaged a lot more people than it's helped.” I knew what his goal is. He's read so many academic works, he's going to put me in my place because he knows this author and this author and that. But I don't rise to that bait. I said to him, his name is David. I said, “You know, David, all of us want people to do well. All of us.” There's no one who says, I want him to be poor, to struggle. But I said, “Here's the challenges.” And I just walked through the challenges, said, “What are you going to do if someone's got a good manufacturing job and China is subsidizing it so he can undercut the American company? He loses his job.” I just walked through all these challenges. Well, of course he has absolutely no idea. And he said, “Well, that's not my job. My job is to point out the problems, not the solutions.” Well, he was being so jerky about it, I said to him, I said, “Well, David, you know, that's okay for your students who become like you: an unaccountable academic. But for most people, what they do in their lives--work lives--is solve problems.” Well (laughs), he got all upset and stomped off. But my point was, that's how we can come together. That's how we can come together and respect each other more. So--and the same thing's true with ideology on the right. I mean, that happens to be, there's ideology and ideological things I've seen which are ridiculous. And I remember when I was early on up in the legislature, one of these ideologues on the right was saying, “Well, you know, we just have to be like on the budget has to be this.” And I said, “Look, I tried to sell my lumber and plywood materials to contractors who said, “Yeah, but I got a cheaper price over there.” I couldn't pound the table and say, “Well, this is a fair price.” He'll walk away. I have to figure out a way. And that's what I'm trying to achieve. I think--this is part of your history. And I think history is, if I hadn't studied IR (International Relations), I would've been a history major. It's got so much. But the only caution I would use, I think it's an important trait. Humility. Yes, you can define, you can say, “Well, one person's objectivity is another person's subjectivity.” I understand that. But it doesn't mean you don't strive for objectivity. And part of the problem of this worldview, and it's illustrated--and I'll get you this in a very important report from the Cronkite School at Arizona State--from prominent journalists ; former executive editor of the Washington Post, one of the key executives at CBS, and they quote many others, and they take it head on. They want to destroy objectivity. And they say objectivity is basically this white male point-of-view. I want to include all points of view. But you also have to have data and evidence. You can come up with the 1619 Project, which she says is a work of journalism. And you can cite evidence. And I'm not against that. But you also have to respect the evidence. Evidence is not always clear. And unlike a chemistry or a physics problem--and I thought a lot about this in the understanding politics--you can't say, “Well, the atomic weight of this molecule--" You can't do that. You have to--and so, so when I say “objective,” what I mean is I'm happy to have the standard that people of goodwill would say, this meets the standard, and that's where the solution part comes in. I don't care whether, I mean, it's not the crazy stuff, but I mean, you can go on the left with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, less say, AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez), because she doesn't know as much but her as well. And you can go with whoever it is on, on the right. And you fully, you want their point of view out there and you want as much evidence as you can get. And if there's a disagreement about it, someone says, “Well, I think the number is this.” You put it out there. Because my goal is not, “I want this policy.” My goal is: you achieve--that's how you achieve objectivity and transparency. I would love to have the debate with any academic who says that. Now, is perfect--you know, the University of California changed a decade ago. It's--they have their own guide for research and they eliminated objectivity. The origins of this is an intellectual movement that came out of academia all those decades ago. I would never contend there is perfect objectivity. And one person can say, “My view's objective, so is the other one.” But you try to gather as much evidence, as much transparency. And the idea is you, all of us in the public who just want good governance, who doesn't want to sit in traffic because Caltrans (California Department of Transportation) can't get their act together, who work 24/7 and get that fixed. And most of us also want them to do enough maintenance and repair. So, they're prepared for a lot of water (laughs). 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:14.000 Yeah. I know you mentioned that most people don't even know where to direct the blame when it comes to politics. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:15.000 Yeah. 01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:25.000 This is going to go into--I know you wanted me to ask you about some of the bills that you wrote personally, specifically an SDG&E bill (San Diego Gas & Electric). 01:48:25.000 --> 01:55:59.000 (laughs) I went after them. You know, there are a lot of them, and I'll just name two that don't have anything to do with education. My first year, and it's relevant today: (California Governor) Gray Davis in 2000, there were some blackouts, I mean straight up blackouts if we weren't, this wasn't like we've had where reduced power, straight up blackouts. People were incensed. So he panicked. And when people are upset, they tend to take it out on whoever's in the office. So, the first year we spent an enormous amount of time, special sessions, trying to understand what happened. And it had to do just like now with the price of natural gas. And the reality, most people don't know, and it's shameful right now that UT and the others don't seem to understand it: these utilities, and there's three major ones, are private companies regulated by government, which is the Public Utilities Commission. What SDG&E was committed, in our case, to paying for natural gas that shot up outrageously, had to be approved! They can't do that on their own. It had to be approved by the Public Utilities Commission. So what the heck are they doing? Well, the governor appoints the Public Utilities Commission. That's where you need to look at. What did they let SDG&E get away with that their cost of natural gas was so high that our bills skyrocket? And I think, Ryan, you know this, there are people who were really it through threw budgets. It really destroyed a lot of people's budgets. And so, it wasn't as bad, but what I came up with is, well, rather than have all these entities, people don't understand, let's have--it's a MUD, a Municipal Utility District. There is one in Sacramento, it's been there for years. And a Municipal Utility District, it's a non-profit. And people elect the governing board. So like, if it were in San Diego County, say five people. And I'd like to see that today, where there's direct accountability. Ryan, you're on that board, my bill's going up, what the heck is going on? Well, you're elected and you're going to respond and you're probably going to respond ahead of time. Because you know it's coming. It's not like, “Well that's SDG&E,” which really doesn't care. Why do they care? Their business decided by the Public Utilities Commission. So, you know, UT said, “Go to the meeting, get angry.” What do they care? Go to the PUC (Public Utilities Commission). What do they care? Now, if they said “Governor (laughs)!” So, what happened was, I couldn't--the utilities really had outsized interest in the committees and the legislature. So, I got help from a former--a Democrat--a former State Senator from South County, Steve Peace. He helped me. I could never have gotten that done at every turn. I managed to get it past the main first committee in Assembly. Well, the procedure is, it has to be transmitted physically. The bill has to be taken to the chamber to go to the next step. Well, they just didn't transmit it. They weren't going to. But Steve called them up and said, “Hey Mark. I had to tell them, get that bill out of there because they were just going to hold it,” which meant it would've died. And then it had to do with an interpretation of the law, which I thought I understood because I must have read it a hundred times better. And SDG&E said, “Well, our lawyers say we won't oppose this.” Besides, they didn't want to be the bad guy. Long story short, I got it pretty much overwhelmingly passed for Gray Davis to sign. And son of gun, he vetoed it. And what his spokesperson said was--here's what happened. He got so panicked. He went out because of the blackouts. He went out and made long-term contracts for natural gas. All the experts, because we had them there talking to us, testifying, all the experts said, “Whatever you do, don't do that, because we know the cycle. It's high now it's going to come down.” He panicked. So, he said, “Well, we've made all these long-term contracts, it's like per million cubic feet or whatever at like ten dollars. And now it's only five dollars. If I sign this, if I sign Wyland’s bill, they're going to have a MUD and they're going to buy all the gas cheap. And I'm stuck with all this expensive gas.” (Willis laughs) And I'll just say, give an example of one other bill, which I never had heard because it would never have passed, but it was introduced. And what it would've done is said, well, instead of considering the budget every year we're going to have a two-year budget. And the first year of every session, all we do is the budget. We don't do these hundreds--there's hundreds--there are sessions where there's 2,000 bills introduced. It becomes a bill factory and too many aren't really that important. All we'll do is the budget. And then it had the state auditor looking at every expenditure and developing a way to explain the history, the funding, the intended effect, and to devise a system to measure: is it effective? And then a recommendation. Is it really effective? We need to do more. Is it ineffective? We could get rid of it. And the idea was over time that the legislators would get really familiar. Really familiar. Because here's another little secret that shouldn't be, the single most important thing all government does is its spending, where does it get the money? How much do we pay in gas tax? Try to figure that one out and how it's changed and where does it go? Is where you get the money and where you spend it. And when you see these articles about this bill or that bill. Yeah, there are occasionally some bills that they feature. But you know, I'll bet you, I mean, my gosh, one year in education, a couple years we did over two hundred pieces of law. And I used to say, “Well, I voted on 2,000 new laws for education.” Do you think education is 2,000 laws better (both laugh). 01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:01.000 Right (laughs). 01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:35.000 So those are two things I worked on. I knew that wouldn't--you couldn't pass it because it's too big and it's too much of a change and it's too hard for people to get their arms around. To me it was no big deal because I've been used to being in business where we need to make this radical change because three months from now, we're going to be losing money big time if we don't do it. But in government, that's harder. So-- 01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:40.000 Different way of thinking for sure. 01:56:40.000 --> 01:57:23.000 It's not, it's not malicious like people saying, “I'm going to make things harder or worse.” It's just people get set in their way and they get set in their beliefs. And I was just listening to some scientists talk about nutrition science and talk about how many recommendations are made without good evidence. And we think of, “Well, science is always simple, straightforward.” Well, there's debates there too. 01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:24.000 Yeah. 01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:30.000 And, but they have studies they can debate and this, that's what I was trying to achieve. 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:43.000 I see. Since I am part of the oral history project here at CSUSM, it would be very remiss of me if I did not ask you about your efforts in promoting oral history. I understand you wrote three bills? 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:44.000 Three. 01:57:44.000 --> 01:57:57.000 That emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. Why did you and still do feel so passionately about oral history? 01:57:57.000 --> 02:10:49.000 I think we need a lot more of it. We need it in the classroom. Good oral history. Mine might be too boring. They might say after ten minutes, “Okay, teacher, come on, we’ve heard enough of this guy.” I think human beings are hardwired to like stories. It can be a TV, a movie, a song. And my grandfather was a great storyteller. And as a little kid, he would tell stories about growing up in Minnesota on the farm. He was a good storyteller. And he was just really good. He would even perform and all these things. And then when I spent that semester in Germany, I learned so much from the grandfather in that family of what he had experienced. And you can't read it. And then his--another relative who later married his daughter was a great storyteller. And when you hear the stories and what happened in Nazi Germany and you hear someone say, “I was in this professor--this Jewish professor's office, and we hear all this commotion in the street and we go over the window and we see the brown shirts marching in the street.” You can read about it, but it's just not as powerful. So I became a huge believer in it. And I also was concerned that we were losing a sense of patriotism, which does not mean our country's perfect. Everything is perfect. I wave--I've never worn a flag lapel or all these things. But it means I've studied a lot of history in many different countries and societies. And unless there's some residual belief in your society, belief that we may not do things right, but there's a reservoir of goodwill, something like that ; it bodes--it doesn't bode well. And I knew you can't go out and get into these curriculum wars, you know, my book or my view, or we're going to teach the 1619 Project. We were racist in the beginning. We're--it's in our genes we always will be. Or this view that says, you know, the colonists were gods on earth, et cetera. I thought, “What about the stories?” And I thought about my parents' generation, World War II. So, I wrote a bill for to incorporate junior year taking American history, the stories of World War II veterans, and people on the home front because the country was really united. I even had a series of things I wanted them to cover. And everyone liked it. I couldn't mandate it. I couldn't say every history course has to have it. I did want it to be available. My idea was, it's available. Teachers need help. I wanted it, I didn't get there where you're teaching American history in high school and here's an oral history unit, you can use it one day, one week. It's curated. Here's essay questions, test questions, (unintelligible) the whole thing. And here's an in-service where you can learn how to do it. To make it, you know, so teachers say, “Yeah, that'll get kids interested.” The one thing though that illustrated the change, and this has to do with objectivity, it's right there. The last sentence and that they're supposed to be asked was--because I didn't say, just tell the story. I wanted them to cover certain things--what did they think about our entry to the war? Did all these sorts of things. Their opinion of the end of the war in the Pacific and the use of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Well, I knew that every single vet is going to say, “Darn right we did that. We would've lost thousands plus thousands of Japanese. We needed to end that war.” And here my own dad was getting ready to get shipped overseas. He was ready to go when they dropped the bomb and the war ended. And I also knew that so-called revisionist, Cold War history. And I don't know if you read any of that stuff, but I'd read it in graduate school. And the professor said, “Once you read this, you'll think it's utter nonsense, but it's out there and I think it's important you'd be familiar with it.” And then we went through it. And the lack of evidence and selected use of evidence you're talking about--that was subjective. And I knew that some of it at the extremes was saying, we initiated the Cold War because we dropped those bombs purposely to challenge the Soviets, to show them “You better watch out.” That's an oversimplification. And by the way, it was also racist act, just like our internment. Well, we interned, I mean, no one can deny we did all those things. But the humility of trying to understand history and other people is try to look at it from their perspective. You know? And, so it was intended to be an antidote because what I'd seen was, it's only this perspective. I tell friends of mine, I said, you ought to read because I have textbooks. I said, “you ought to read a current textbook when it covers World War II.” And because it's not that it didn't happen. We had riots in Mobile and up in Oakland at the shipyards. All those--no one denies any of that stuff, but there's more to it than that. And all the things that we knew, we knew every battle. We knew what a sacrifice, those poor marines. And we knew the debates: MacArthur convincing Roosevelt to waste all those men's lives and Filipino lives and Japanese lives invading the Philippines. The Navy clearly had the right--forget the Philippines, we can beat them with-- anyway, all those important things. And so, son of a gun, it (the bill) sails through. And I had a co-author in the Senate, great senator who could have gone on to be Mayor and Congress and all the rest of anything she wanted. And from San Diego. And we're ready to go. And it's on the Senate floor. And then it would've gone to the Governor and son of a gun in my office says, “You know, Mark, we got a call. There's a problem. You can't get it off the Senate floor.” Son of a gun. The Speaker, the then Speaker whom I liked, John Burton--he was old school, old school Democratic politician from Northern California whose brother was a member of Congress when they had that horrible thing in Central America with “Drink the Kool Aid.” Anyway, he had empowered, he didn't do it. He had a staffer who was younger and she read that thing. And the minute she read that line about dropping the bomb (waves arms as if referee), no goal. And she told my office, “You take that out and it's fine.” Now that is the reality because she was younger and she had an ideological view--in my view, in my opinion--an ideological subjective view that the use of those weapons was evidence. Total evidence. Not, “Well what's the other view? I've never actually talked to veterans, how they’d view this.” Total evidence. Because she had read--oh my gosh, one of the authors, Gabriel Coco, there were several, I used to know all of them--that that was reality. And I got it through. And then the next year I did one for Korea and Vietnam. And it was before, I think it was before Iraq, but it covered what had happened in the Middle East. Same thing. And then I did one that took me about four years, on genocide. I finally got it through my last year. And I thought it was important to understand the historical phenomenon of genocide. Not just the Holocaust. And what I said to Jewish members up there, “We, you know, we do a tribute to the Holocaust, memory of the Holocaust every year, but it's not just the Holocaust. This is human beings do this.” And I started as with oral history. So I started with the Armenian (genocide). And we have a lot of people of Armenian backgrounds in California now, as examples. Not the only ones. Armenian, the Holocaust. I used Cambodia, Rwanda, I think Somalia, maybe Bosnia as examples. And you know, it's the dark side of human history. And very importantly, I included that when students consider this, they need to consider how we can avoid these in the future because the solution part is so important. And that's the hard stuff. And I even had in there for example, “Should we be willing to deploy UN troops or American troops?” Neither of which we would do. And I just wanted them to understand, you can get wound up and a lot of people are wound up and emotional about all sorts of things, but do the hard work about solving it. And once you get in the trenches, it's harder. And so that was the idea. And because interestingly enough, the only reason it took me so long, was there is a very powerful Turkish interest group that says the Armenian genocide never happened. It's a fiction. And finally I was able to get that passed. And if you've ever heard any of those documentaries, which I'm addicted to, and you can hear like for the Holocaust, some of those films. So, you're embarked on something really important. I think the oral history is really important. And when you become a professor of this, a teacher of this, I hope you incorporate it. 02:10:49.000 --> 02:10:56.000 Definitely. I love the concept of oral history. And I wasn't even introduced to it until recently. 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:57.000 Yeah. 02:10:57.000 --> 02:11:01.000 This is something that I would've loved in high school. 02:11:01.000 --> 02:11:02.000 Yeah. 02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:09.000 Instead of a teacher just--talk, talk talk--“This is what happened in this war. This war is what, okay, let's take a test on it.” 02:11:09.000 --> 02:11:10.000 You know-- 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:11.000 Hearing these perspectives-- 02:11:11.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Yeah. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Would've been mind-blowing. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:14:34.000 Well see my, both of my grandparents, all four of my grandparents were raised on farms. That's how you learn. We were agricultural. And you hear their stories. And all of them left because the work was never ending and really hard because they're family farms. And my grandfather was the youngest in a big farm family. And he was a good storyteller. So, I learned about the nineteenth century from those stories. His name was Bryan Swede, who was the city councilman supervisor. Well, he was named after William Jennings Bryan. And that's my middle name. Because his father was a devotee of William Jennings Bryan the Prairie populist. And he had gone to rallies as a little kid for William Jennings Bryan, where they had songs, you know, I had music, they had these political songs and how would I know this? But he explained his father--this was in Minnesota, was--some sort of official state official who, and you would know the period better, but ended up going to Colorado during that period in the early twentieth century where they had all the mine riot--the mine strikes and all that stuff. And he saw how the miners were treated, and the strike breakers. And it radicalized him to use a modern term. And he came back and he joined--he was a Wobbly, International Workers of the World (Industrial Workers of the World). Now this is a guy with not a lot of education, but you really got, you really understand what it was like when you saw--you know, you can read about strike breakers--but he went and saw the way they were being treated. So, you know, it's powerful. And if I hadn't learned all those stories in Germany, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I--you (laughs) when--and it's not only the family I lived with, but then the husband of the daughter who--and what it was like being a student with no money and eating--in Vienna when there were riots and the cops were all on horseback with sabers and all that stuff. It's like, wow. We're at the end of the war when he was an official, he was an economist he was on the train from Frankfurt to Berlin. The train is stopped--end the war. German soldiers are deserting. Stop. They go through, check everyone's ID, find Germans who they consider deserters and they spring them up right there. And you just--all these, that's--I don't--that should, that's too negative. (Willis laughs) But you really, yeah. 02:14:34.000 --> 02:14:36.000 It changes your perspective completely. 02:14:36.000 --> 02:14:37.000 Yeah. 02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:42.000 And this is going to be one of the last things for me, Mark, as we're wrapping it up here (Wyland laughs). 02:14:42.000 --> 02:14:44.000 I've done a whole-- 02:14:44.000 --> 02:14:45.000 No, this has been great. 02:14:45.000 --> 02:14:48.000 This is a dump (both laugh). 02:14:48.000 --> 02:15:01.000 I've enjoyed every minute of it, I assure you. But one thing that's really, obviously as an historian, really important to me is just knowing the truth. Like, I love learning history, but I want to know the truth. Don't give me this, you know, romantic-- 02:15:01.000 --> 02:15:02.000 Right. 02:15:02.000 --> 02:15:08.000 Romanticized version of it. And one thing I'm very passionate about is Native American history. 02:15:08.000 --> 02:15:09.000 Right. 02:15:09.000 --> 02:15:10.000 My wife is Native American. 02:15:10.000 --> 02:15:12.000 Right. 02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:21.000 We are taught as young children that, “Oh, you know, we, the Natives welcomed, you know, the white man with open arms.” 02:15:21.000 --> 02:15:22.000 Yeah. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:24.000 “We shared their land. We had Thanksgiving.” 02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Right, right. 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:28.000 We don't learn the truth about it until we're adults. 02:15:28.000 --> 02:15:29.000 Yeah. 02:15:29.000 --> 02:15:32.000 Which is incredible to me. 02:15:32.000 --> 02:21:04.000 Well, that's--you posed an interesting question. Because we know the truth. And I thought it had changed, but maybe it hadn't because when I was in high school, a long time ago, taking American history, maybe it wasn't in the textbook, but I remember the teachers saying, you know, we estimate there were this many--they didn't use Indigenous peoples--Native Americans. There are this many Native Americans. And then, you know, the--had collapsed, the Vale of Tears March (Trail of Tears). We learned that stuff. And, the history is the history, you know, the missions, we all know what happened. The missions subjugated the Mission Indians and all that stuff. So, certainly, we need to know that. I think, my gosh, now this was in college, I took a course in Latin American history. And when the Spaniards first started coming into the Americas, there was a theological debate. And the theological debate was, “Are they human? Because if they're human, we need to save them,” which meant convert them to Christianity. And the only thing I would say about that is we've come a long way. We certainly need to know it. But I think to make it complete, we need to see the changes that have been wrought. And it needs to be comparative. If you were Indio in Mexico or Latin America, you know, they'll talk with pride. And I learned in Colombia, you know, we think of it all the same. They’re all different, right? The Colombianos do not particularly like the Mexicanos. And part of it is all the Americans think, you know, they're Mexicanos and they're not the Colombianos. And they would talk about “el orgullo de ser Mexicano,” which means “they’re arrogant” and they brag about, you know, their great history of the Aztecs and the Mayans. They don't get treated very well. And I'm not doing that to cast aspersions on them. What I'm saying is, look at the Europeans in Africa and Asia and the rest of it. There's something about human beings that tends to do that. And the question is, okay, “What is the history since then? How are we solving the problems?” Now in California and other places, the advent of gaming has done a lot because all of a sudden there's a lot more money. But all the tribes--I know a ton about this, Ryan, because you can't be in the state legislature. And I was on the relevant committee. I've been--I haven't been invaluable, but I've been in almost every one of them. And they're all different. The, you know, the tribal leaders are all different, then they can change. And some are, you know--and when I went up to my sister’s, I go right by Valley View, go right by Rincon. And if I turn left, I'd--you know. But so. I think it's really important to learn the history. But not, not that there's just one lesson, but there's a lot of lessons because humans--the, however you want to think how it happens, either it's something in us, or if you're Jewish or Christian in Genesis, we're fallen, we sinned and we're driven out of Eden. We're--you're in trouble now, you know, East of Eden. And women will bear children in pain. And the next thing you know, Cain slew Abel, his brother. And it's sort of whether it's that's what happened, that's what I believe, or it's a parable, I think the challenge for all civilization is “How do we overcome these things in the right way?” Does that make sense? 02:21:04.000 --> 02:21:05.000 Yes. 02:21:05.000 --> 02:22:22.000 But you do have to learn the truth. When I was in elementary school, we learned about the sharing and all that sort of thing. But in high school, you know, we got, we got the real thing. And then what do you do? And that's why I did the thing (oral history bill) on genocide because I said, “Well, there's these groups, but you can add in lots more.” And how do you stop it? And how do you get people--see, I think that's Western, for all our sins. How do you get people--it's western civilization that is able to say, “We need to see people and accord them respect as they're like us. It's not that easy. And I also know a lot about immigration and immigration into Europe and all these other things. It gets complicated. So yeah (both laugh). Well, and you know-- 02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:23.000 It's a heavy topic. I know. 02:22:23.000 --> 02:22:24.000 Well, it's an important one. 02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:25.000 It is. 02:22:25.000 --> 02:23:02.000 And, and, and, but here's the key. And I did have a bill, which I think I did as a resolution or something. Actually, I was looking through them, so I need to find some of it. It's important to learn it in that context. How many--I had thought that, well, when Cortez landed, you know, they rode in to--they rode into to, I think it was called Mexico. I've forgotten what the Capital was with the Aztecs and the chief Aztec said, “Oh my gosh, these are gods on horses.” 02:23:02.000 --> 02:23:03.000 Montezuma. 02:23:03.000 --> 02:23:18.000 Montezuma. I don't know, you may know this. I didn't. It took them years. And what they did was they built relationships with neighboring tribes that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. 02:23:18.000 --> 02:23:19.000 Right. 02:23:19.000 --> 02:23:23.000 Who had enslaved them and taken their kids for sacrifices. 02:23:23.000 --> 02:23:26.000 So they were more than willing--“Hey I’ll help you out.” 02:23:26.000 --> 02:26:38.000 So they were more than willing. And so how do you--in a world, when I was studying international relations, they call it IR for short. And it was the Cold War. And after 1962 and the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was very stable. But we thought it was dangerous. And it was, but not like now. So, what do you do in a world where the next biggest, some people would say bigger economy (China), is utterly totalitarian, where everyone has a social media score where they can take--same human thing. The Uyghurs aren't like us. Only ethnic Han Chinese get treated well while the Tibetans and all the rest, they are subjugated. How, and that's such a powerful country and getting more powerful. How do we maintain societies where rule of law isn't perfect, but people cared about the laws we passed? You know what, again, this is not dumping on Mexico, but I'll tell you a story that illustrates the conundrum. This was a professor of mine while we were negotiating NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And he had a conversation with--he was then Foreign Minister of Mexico. And I think he's a professor now, totally bicultural, American PhD. I'll think of his name. I can't think of it right now. Anyway, and they were still negotiating and the US was asking for more environmental guarantees. And he said to my friend, “You Americans don't get it. Because in America, law matters. Law doesn't matter in Mexico.” Give us all the guarantees you want. We'll sign them. It won't make any different. Now, that's not because Mexicans don't want--they don't want the cartels. They don't want--they want the same kind of democracy--which is imperfect--we have. But maybe you're the next generation and you're studying history. Maybe you can help us figure out how we can create more of this and at least maintain what we have. 02:26:38.000 --> 02:26:58.000 Yes, absolutely. I'm right there with you. Well, Mark, I can't thank you enough for your time and your candidness today. It has been extremely informative. It's been an honor to be able to speak with you. Before we close the interview, is there anything else you would like to add that we did not get to? 02:26:58.000 --> 02:28:46.000 Well, there may be, and I may have some stuff I can send you if you're interested. Because I started thinking through all of this and I appreciate it, Ryan, because not only are--number one, you're actually interested, which is great. Number two, you're going to teach, I hope, because I think you would be a good teacher. And it's been fun actually. And I didn't think I'd get so wound up (both laugh). But, you know, I'm trying to make it better. And gosh, the issue with Native Americans, I can't tell you that hours I have spent with all these issues in great depth. And they've had their, their challenges. And one of the interesting things about state government, once you take out national defense or a couple of things you're dealing with, actually there are many important issues that the federal government doesn't deal with. And in a state like California where it's a very activist legislature and government, you really deal with a huge number of things. So anyway. Well, I appreciate it and I appreciate you letting me talk about my plan to fix it all (laughs). I still see the world the way it could be. 02:28:46.000 --> 02:28:50.000 Right. No, and I admire that. We need more people like you honestly, that think in that way. 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:51.000 Well-- 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:58.000 So, I know, I really appreciate it. So thank you for everything that you have done and continue to try to do. Because I think it's very admirable. 02:28:58.000 --> 02:29:42.000 Well, I really appreciate that and I appreciate--you can't do it without help and support because people want that. People deserve--I'm not one of those who says, “Well, they voted the wrong way. They deserve it.” No, people deserve feeling good about their government, being able to say, “Well, I didn't agree with everything, but you know, they're trying to do the right thing.” And right now we don't have that. And I think this is one way to restore it. And I couldn't do it, even think about it if I didn't think people think, yeah, let's do that. 02:29:42.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Yeah. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:45.000 So anyway, well— 02:29:45.000 --> 02:29:46.000 Really Concur. 02:29:46.000 --> 02:29:48.000 I enjoyed this (laughs). 02:29:48.000 --> 02:30:02.000 I did as well. I think anybody that's going to check this interview out's going to really enjoy it. I learned a lot. And that's, I think, really the ultimate goal. So Mark, thank you again so much for joining me today at the California State University San Marcos Library. And I will now stop the recording. 02:30:02.000 --> 02:30:04.000 Okay. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-38 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (California) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland Community history History Department internship Politics and governance