1 10 82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tomme Arthur OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Arthur, Tomme. Interview August 8, 2019 SC027-044 01:09:58 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. Brewing industry -- California -- History. Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Tomme Arthur Judith Downie ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.m4a 1:|17(6)|44(4)|71(12)|94(8)|117(10)|139(3)|172(14)|214(13)|227(11)|264(9)|284(2)|311(5)|345(12)|373(2)|393(14)|427(5)|450(16)|474(12)|493(6)|523(7)|562(8)|583(6)|616(10)|634(16)|649(12)|670(14)|698(10)|717(5)|743(3)|760(6)|779(6)|802(9)|824(12)|843(10)|860(6)|877(13)|894(13)|911(17)|930(11)|953(3)|976(2)|991(14)|1021(12)|1039(7)|1062(14)|1098(8)|1146(15)|1159(9)|1189(15)|1231(3)|1246(10)|1270(9)|1300(3)|1321(3)|1342(16)|1363(2)|1384(4)|1401(4)|1421(14)|1439(11)|1459(4)|1475(10)|1499(6)|1521(2)|1535(4)|1559(5)|1590(9)|1610(2)|1627(6)|1643(11) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/77ba455fa57d5b0079ba70f5e57ea2db.m4a Other audio English oral history Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. &#13 ; &#13 ; In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing ; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s ; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures ; mentoring individuals in the industry ; and awards. &#13 ; Judith Downie: So today is August 8th, 2019 and this is Judith Downie, the Curator of the CSUSM Brewchive® with Tomme Arthur, founder and co-owner of Lost Abbey, the Hop Concept, Port Brewing, and myriad other projects that we're going to be asking about. So tell me, the purpose of this is to kind of record in one place things I've seen in a lot of places. You know, you've been very generous with your time with people mentoring and interviewing. And so this is for the Brewchive®, basically an overall history of your life experiences as a brewer, thoughts, things like that. So, we do have a list of questions here, which again I'll read them off, I may reword them a little bit and you are open to responding to them however you need. And I hope we have plenty of time that you've talked about things that maybe nobody's ever asked you. Tomme Arthur: That would be fun. JD: Yeah. So record these things for posterity. So, let's start with your background. To be clear, from what I've seen, you started home brewing in Arizona while you were in college and how did that start? TA: So I am a native San Diegan. My family's three to four generations on both sides. Went to Saint Augustine High School. When I was in high school, I decided that I really liked the English language and I wanted to study English and felt that teaching was a path that I would probably take. JD: Okay. TA: And so I fell in love with Flagstaff as a campus and community. And the school at Northern Arizona University had a really good education teaching program. So that's how I ended up in Flagstaff. When I got to school, I met a family, last name is Gardner and, and their son, Tom. And I became very close and the Gardner family really was into beer and they were sort of my mentors to beer. And they said, you know, we're going to teach you about better beer. And of course, I was only 18 at the time, but you know, I wasn't gonna say no. And they kind of pushed me in this direction of here's what better beer looks like, tastes like. American beer, imported beer, Canadian, very English, you know, all the, all the different countries where a great beer would have come from. A lot of it at that time was imported of course. JD: Right. Because really, you know, we're talking what the... TA: 1991 and 95 was when I was in school. JD: Okay. So there really wasn't much of a craft beer scene in Arizona I don't think. TA: There were very few craft breweries in Arizona. In fact, there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff at the time. We ended up having three open up in my last year of school. But there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff and at that time. There was likely to be 10 or 15 probably in the entire state. But we've got a lot of regional beers. There was a lot of beer from Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado beer. So there was some American craft. But mostly from very older players, you know, Sierra Nevada Anchor, Deschutes (Brewery), big, bigger breweries. JD: And being that the craft beer scene in San Diego was still pretty young in that time period. Do you remember seeing anything from San Diego? TA: No. In fact we, we actually talk about this a lot, that prior to Stone Brewing coming into San Diego, nobody actually sent beer outside of San Diego. Karl Strauss (Brewing) had beer in San Diego at the time and packaged in bottles. But they, I don't believe much of their beer, if any, was leaving the San Diego area. So my understanding is that it really wasn't until Stone opened their doors and shipped beer to Arizona, likely maybe Nevada, you need to ask them, where they crossed the state line and perhaps were one of the original new craft breweries to actually make beer to leave San Diego. JD: Which is really interesting because I have in my pre-Prohibition research on San Diego craft brewing found Mission Brewing. They were brewing beer to supplement San Diego Consolidated Brewing, which is San Diego Brewing Company (today). They were San Diego Consolidated Brewing for a while and Arizona passed Prohibition in 1914, five years before National Prohibition and halted any shipment of even Hopski, which was a near beer Mission was brewing, into the state. They weren't even allowing that. And there was a big lawsuit and Mission Brewing lost and that was the contributing factor to the closure of Mission through that. TA: They actually lost out on a nonalcoholic or near beer. JD: Yeah. Hopski, and they didn't continue to brew that because J. H. Zitt, who was the president, the current owner of San Diego Consolidated Brewing had said ‘I will never brew anything but real beer.’ So he's the one who decided to close Mission. Because he actually owned it at the time because his father-in- law and brother-in-law, who had founded Mission, had walked away. TA: Yeah, the old San Diego stuff is really interesting. JD: Yeah, and it's a, it's an interesting kind of parallel between you being in Arizona and starting your interest in beer there and then coming back to San Diego. But I've also seen that you've noted that your favorite beers are Belgian style. What? TA: I just find them to be very unique and I think that there's, there's a pretty, I guess when I first got started in brewing in my sort of craft foundation, they were the most unique things out there. And that, that today is not necessarily the case. There's so many new producers and people that have really taken the boundaries and, and stretched them and moved them in directions. I think ostensibly under a Belgian influence or sort of what amounts to be a Belgian artistry, but there's a lot more to it these days. And I just think that if you, if you become imaginative about beer, you have to look at what the Belgians did or were doing at that time. Technique wise, yeast wise flavors, just process things. Very unconventional via what, what would amount to be a very conventional sort of brewing, you know, take four malts or take four ingredients. You can, you used a lot of water and hops and that's beer. And then you look at what they do. And it's completely different. JD: So you think the Belgians weren't constrained by the purity law that the Germans had and that's part of what led to their inventiveness? TA: Yeah, I just feel like they as a group embraced different methodologies and, and that sometimes weren't easy. And those methods at least preserved flavors that couldn't be found in beer, again, conventional beer. JD: Okay. Very interesting. So, onto your actual brewing experiences. You started home brewing? I read it was a homebrew kit... TA: So the Gardner’s bought me a home brew kit early for my graduation. So, I was gifted it in January of 1995 and that's when we started homebrewing. JD: Okay. And you didn't like the first beer you brewed? TA: The first beer we brewed, it was a black style, you know, sort of a dry Irish Guinness-style stout, but it came out very thin and didn't taste like Guinness or anything. So it wasn't, it was not a good beer. But you know, I think the expectations were high and probably should have set the bar a little lower. JD: Was this extract or all grain? TA: It was extract for sure. JD: Yeah. Because of course supplies even in the 90s, were still kind of hard to come by. TA: Yeah, we were pretty lucky there was a homebrewer outpost in Flagstaff, so there was a store that sold ingredients that we could've, we could've started in an all-grain basis. But I was living in a house with four people and it just wasn't really, I didn't have the resources to go build a full all grain brewing system, with the plastic fermenters and you know, boiling on the stove top kind of stuff was definitely where it was at. JD: Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So, then you came back to San Diego. Was that, what was the reason for coming leaving Arizona? TA: So I graduated in June or May of 1995. JD: So was this your bachelor's or your teaching credential? TA: This was my bachelors of arts in just English. And at that point I didn't really want to stay in Flagstaff and I wasn't gonna attend grad school there. So, I moved back home and so I left. And when I got home I kind of kicked around a little bit trying to figure out what I was going to do and really didn't have a plan necessarily I was able to go back and live with my parents. And you know, the only requirement was that I find a job. So, I found a job and that's kinda how I got in the downtown life. My dad had a printing business when I was growing up, so I was very, very well trained and I worked in the campus print shop when I was in school. So, I applied for a printing job in a downtown San Diego business and I was commuting, taking the trolley from La Mesa down into downtown San Diego every day. And I happened to be reading want ads, just, it was all that was left in the newspaper at that point. And stumbled upon a brew pub opening that had an ad in the paper for cooks, dishers, all that stuff in it said assistant brewer and I circled it. And I walked over the next day at lunch and applied for a job. And that was actually Cervecería La Cruda. JD: Right, with Troy Hojel? So, you actually opened Cervecería La Cruda in September of ‘96? TA: No, they, they would have opened, I think it would've been March of 96 ‘cause we ended up, we attended the great American beer festival in September, October of 96 and then it closed. It was less than a full year. I think I was hired in April, May-ish. and then I wasn't there even for a full year. JD: Yeah. I have, I have March ‘97 is when it closed. TA: So I think it probably was mid April-ish I would've been hired in. We didn't even make it a full year. JD: Yeah. This is the kind of thing I like because I have a very large Excel spreadsheet of every brewery from 1868 which was Chollas Valley Brewery through today. Whether they opened or closed, it never made it, pulled the license, whatever... TA: So, how many different breweries have attempted to open? Are we in the three hundreds or? JD: Well, my Excel spreadsheet also includes all the individual tasting rooms because generally they pull a separate ABC license. I'm up over 550 getting close to 600 I think, but I could certainly get back to you with how many tried and never even actually opened. I think there's a real object lesson there. TA: I think the most interesting thing is that we operate that there's 160 or whatever right now that are active, but it's really interesting to know kind of how many have kind of opened and closed and opened and closed and where you know, you can say, okay, since prohibition we've had 208 that have tried or participated in this, in this scene. JD: Yeah, because I break the whole history into three parts. There was a pre-Prohibition 1868 to 1919, 1919/1920 then 1933 to 1953 because Aztec, which had sold to Altes Brewing, closed and they were the last brewery operating post-Prohibition and then we didn't pick up again until the (19)80s so I can extract that information and get it to you because those numbers are always very powerful. TA: Yeah. I just feel like it'd be interesting to say since Prohibition, there's been 208 licenses that were issued or over, you know-- JD: And then there were others that announced a name or announced that they were going to open and never even got around to pulling a license. You know, so I have, I have every single possible name of any business that ever said ‘we are going to be a brewery or a brew pub, or...’ TA: No one ever drops on in front of you and you say, haven't heard of it. JD: Well actually not too long ago, I ran across one called the Royal Duffer. And that evidently they were contract brewing. They were in Carlsbad and they were like four golf buddies. And so they had beer for, again, I think it was less than a year. And I haven't been able to find out too much information from them, but I'm very alert to, ‘Oh, I don't think I've ever heard of that name before’ so this is the first one I've not heard of in a long time. So I think I'm pretty comprehensive. But yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting and a lot of work. But going back to Troy, is Troy still around? TA: He is in somewhere in Colorado outside of Denver. In fact, I just talked to him the other day. He texted me, I think his cousin opened a brewery in Texas and he had a question or two. TA: So yeah. He's in Colorado and doing the software. JD: Okay. So he's no longer in the brewing business. TA: No, actually he left the brewery business and ended up doing software in Northern California for a bit, I think, and then moved off to Colorado. JD: Well, it's gotta be sad to watch your dream die especially so quickly. TA: You know, it was a pretty aggressive life lesson, you know? It taught me a lot in the short time that we were into it. I still think that Troy is one of the best brewers I've ever met. And it would've been a really cool thing to see it succeed at, but certainly would've put me on a different life path, I think if it had. So I don't, I don't try not to, you know, revisionist history, that part of it. But the beers that he made and he was a very technical brewer, I think, I think it would've been, it would've added to the scene even more. JD: Yeah. What actually happened? Was it just lack of sales? TA: I think more than anything it was a bad, is a bad business model. I don't know if you know the story of Baja Brewing Company. JD: I'm familiar with the name, but not really the story. TA: So Baja Brewing Company opened up and they claimed to be the very first Mexican-themed brewpub in the United States. Now it was their claim to fame. But what happened is that the partners at Baja Brewing and the partners at La Cruda actually had a schism and they split. They were going to open the Baja Brewing Company together or something along those lines and they had a falling out and the partnership dissolved. And so these guys opened Baja Brewing Company and less than three or four months later Cervecería La Cruda opened up three blocks away. So the very first Mexican theme brewpub in this country opened up and three blocks later and three months and three blocks over the second one opened. So, very underfunded from the get-go. Very, it was a 13,000 square foot building at Forth and Island, you know, big, big building. Too much of it to just for the time I, I'd be nervous opening a 13,000 square foot building brewpub today. And you know, back when the Gaslamp was kind of still new and trendy and hot, I don't know what the rent was, but just overall a bad, a bad vision I think for what was going on. JD: Ahead of its time. Really. TA: Yeah. And the thing that's kind of crazy is that Cervecería La Cruda to them is a hangover brewery. So when you say ‘tengo la cruda’, that means I have the crud, I'm not feeling well. That's not a real great way to tell people you want to come here and drink. They opened up with a menu that they had sourced from the family that owned El Callejon in Encinitas. So, they had this really great, I would say deep, deep Mexican Sonoran source, you know, moles (sauces) and things. But that wasn't on anyone's radar with respect to craft brew at the time. So, good people, great, great opportunity. But not even something, that I think today, even if you attempted to tackle it, would probably work really well. JD: So as you say, a real experience. TA: Yeah, a lot I learned from, you look around and you see simplicity sometimes wins. JD: Or slow growth. Planned slower. TA: Or have more money than you think. Yeah. JD: Somebody said to me one time something like, you need five times more than you think you do. And I would, I think that's true with any business really. But the expense of equipment and materials and everything and you just can't do it all yourself. TA: No. You gotta be able to weather a lot of storms. JD: And you know, with this, I know in September of 2016 I went to the craft beer conference up in Sacramento and I saw you speak there and you at that time, this is three years ago now, said that San Diego was already over-saturated, and you would not open up a brewery at this point in San Diego. And how many breweries have we had open up? TA: Continues to be a head-scratching thing. Yeah. Well, we joke, I mean, we're here in San Marcos now. I've got three breweries within a one-mile stretch. Right. So yeah, that's just the way it is. Yeah. JD: But you're each different. Accommodating everybody at some point. But so when La Cruda closed, you moved to White Labs for just a couple of months in yeast sales. Was that based because you knew about yeast? TA: So White Labs had just kinda gotten their feet wet. So I remember the very first day when I was at La Cruda, one of the very first days I was at La Cruda. Chris White (founder of White Labs) walked in on a sales call. And so we were chatting and talking and at some point, and this is a part of my history that I don't remember all of that clearly, but I ended up moving in with them. I mean I was a roommate and I think there was a crossover point where I was working at La Cruda, but I already moved into their house. Cause he and Lisa had an empty room. I needed a place to stay. And then when La Cruda was on its way to be closing it became kind of obvious that I could help them in their infancy of their company with some just R and D and just different trialing and things like that. TA: You know, I had met a lot of brewers in Arizona at that time. So Chris said, well, why don't you come help me just kind of knock down some doors and you know, we just need somebody that can walk in and kind of talk about this in a very brewer friendly kind of way. So my goal was I was kind of like an ambassador really. You know, I didn't really do a lot of pure sales but my job was to talk about it and explain how my experience with different yeasts and temperatures and things like that. So it was kind of just yeah, I think it was more of a product, product knowledge and ambassador at that point. JD: Was there any conversation at that time about opening up a tasting room for yeast labs? TA: No. No. I mean, maybe Chris had it, but it you know, that was a pretty, it was a long time ago and there wasn't really a sense of yeast as a business outside of the yeast business. I don't think there was sort of that auxiliary layer to it. I'm sure Chris would have liked to have had a bunch of beers on tap, but I, I would imagine if he had had that thought back then that they would have probably just wanted 10 beers on tap for their customers to come sample them, but not necessarily not, not really treat it as an educational function for the consumer as much as an educational experience for a brewer who maybe hadn't worked a certain use and things like that. I mean there's just an enormous amount of yeasts that have been banked since we started. Since I got my first job in 1996 there's been an enormous amount of new yeast that had been added. So, they need an avenue to show people what those yeasts do. JD: And back then too, you probably had a lot of brewers, even professional brewers, would be how I see it. That didn't really understand a lot about the hops that were available. The yeast that was available, you know, cause a lot of them had, were coming out of the homebrew experience and you know, all of a sudden here's more stuff you need to know. TA: If you go back and look at it ‘95, ‘96 to, so that time, I mean we're talking about a dial up modem, you know, we're talking about low internet speed, we're talking about not... JD: A lot of people, not even having computers or knowing how to use it. TA: Not even a lot of Information online. Frankly. I mean you couldn't, you could not do all the kind of information that's out there today. And, and past that, a lot of the information that did exist in book format was highly technical through the ASBC (American Society of Brewing Chemists) and the big brewers. And then what was available that had been written about the sort of homebrew level and medium brewery. There wasn't a lot of medium brewery stuff in there, so you were getting a lot of books on how to brew ales, but they had this really big English, you know, sort of basis to them. Cask condition, real ale ingredients weren't American in their basis. So there was no ability to look up and say, Oh, how do I use this German hefeweizen yeast? You know, how do I, how much do I pitch it, what temperature, how does it behave? And none of that information existed. JD: So a lot of technical stuff. TA: Yeah. even just simplistic technical. What's the right temperature? JD: And around here San Diego was still something of a Coors town that's San Diego was test market for a couple of different, for Coors Light and for Herman Joseph's 1868 and you know, so really do you have much of a market for... TA: In fact, we joked about it here. This was the best, I think this was the best-selling Coors light town when I took in, when I got into brewing, this was the number one Coors Light in the country. JD: Yes, it was. TA: Well that explains to you, you know, where we're, where we were and where we came from. And on top of that you had all the import beers too, right? You still had Coronas and Pacifico and the Modelos in the world doing very well here at that time too. So yeah, it was a, it was a long ways to the top. JD: So you weren't at White Labs for very long before you were hired by Pizza Port. Pizza Port just had the one location then, right? TA: They had the one location in Solana Beach. Vincent (Marsaglia), Gina (Marsaglia) had been partners in the Carlsbad Public House with a guy named Brett. I think his last name was Stamp. JD: Tetley Ridden, I, it's a hyphenated name. (correct name is Redmayne-Titley) TA: Yeah. And then he became a, they, they had a falling out with Carlsbad Public House and they were in, they were in the process of converting the Public House, which is the Pizza Port in Carlsbad in the village into the Pizza Port at that time. So I was, I was brought into assist on Solana Beach because the head brewer was going to go have shoulder surgery and then they were supposed to move me up to Carlsbad to take over the production of the brewing and Carlsbad once, once he came back. So there was almost a second Pizza Port in line at that time. So they were, they were in the home stretch of the construction to convert it from the Public House to Pizza Port, which opened in July of 1997 so they were real close. And I always like to tell the story ‘cause I think it's very fascinating to me. I'd never stepped foot in Pizza Port before I got interviewed for the job. So I had no real perceived concept or notion of what exactly they did or what they didn't do. JD: Okay. And so you were an assistant brewer then? You weren't head brewer? TA: Yeah. Eddie Class, I think his last name was Classic. He was the head brewer at that time. And Vince was going to be the head brewer in Carlsbad when they opened. So yeah, Eddie was in charge of the brewery in Solana Beach and he was gonna go, I think I was going to have rotator cuff surgery and take about three months off. And then when he came back I was supposed to go take the job in Carlsbad. JD: Okay. but you, you obviously that didn't quite work out that way, but you were promoted to Director of Brewery Operations in June of 2005. TA: Yeah, that was a short stint ‘cause we were getting ready to open this place too. So yeah. JD: So you already knew you were going to be moving on? TA: We were having conversations at that point about how to get to here. We, I think in June it kind of was a collective. They terminated Kirk McHale, who was the brewer in Carlsbad in June of 2005 and then there was the San Clemente location, Carlsbad location, and Solana Beach. And I was asked to kind of tackle all three of them at the same time, make sure that they were more or less on the same page, collectively, kind of get them aligned. And then we also knew that we were having conversations about a new partnership and trying to build up the partnerships so that we could get this, this facility put into our orbit. JD: Okay. So that leads me into the founding Port Brewing in partnership with Vince and Gina. And you know, you have Port Brewing, you have Lost Abbey, you have the Hop Concept and I've also seen that you're involved in an Arizona brewery called Moto Sonora. So can you explain the structure of everything? TA: Yeah. When we started talking to Stone Brewing about buying this facility from them you know, my love of Belgian beers was pretty strong and I knew that we wanted to make some things out here that were very barrel aged, Belgian influenced and all that. And we had this, Vince had the idea for the brand called the Lost Abbey. So we were very, very keen on the fact that we knew that was going to happen. There were a lot of beers at Pizza Port that were being produced that needed to kind of stretch and grow and needed to get from get out from under just being a pub-based beer. And that allowed, you know, people who had been asking for more, you know, basically Pizza Port beer. And that's where the Port Brewing came from. So the Port Brewing beers, many of them when we opened our doors here came from Solana Beach recipes that I had produced, Hop 15, Santa’s Little Helper, Shark Attack. We brought the Wipe Out recipe over from Carlsbad and those beers had a lot of legacy towards the pubs and, and kind of, you know, grew them out of that realm. But we knew that there'd be the Port brand’s very West coast centric, you know, kind of that Ballast Point, Coronado, Green Flash, Stone kind of mentality. You know, higher hopping rates, you know, sometimes imperial, things like that. We always knew that that wasn't really that wasn't going to be our principal focus in the sense that we were going to have the two brands, but we also knew that having the two brands side by side allowed us to walk in and have a wide range of beers without having everything be a Lost Abbey beer or Port Brewing beer. JD: Okay. And then the Hop Concept is a fairly recent addition to the portfolio. TA: So a few years ago I walked into a bar and all the beer names on the wall really just confused me. There were so many new beers and I had no idea what they tasted like. And I didn't want to be a bother to the bartenders and try to, you know, ask them this or that. And I'm not an Untappd person. I don't really use digital media to tell me what I should be drinking. So, it kinda came back to we wanted to create a line of beers that were very fresh and simplistic in their makeup. So, the Hop Concept beers, we had a line called the Hop Freshener series and they were basically we had ‘Dank and Sticky’ and ‘Citrus and Piney and ‘Lemon and Grassy’ and ‘Tropical and Juicy’. And it was essentially taste and smell. And we, all we were trying to do was tell the consumer and the bartender, this is what you should expect the beer to taste like, or smell like. And it was a quick, straightforward deliverable and it was meant to be a, I use the word simple, but simple deliverable like you knew what you were getting. We were setting you up to understand how that beer should taste and behave. JD: Yeah, it does seem like naming beers because they do have to be registered names or whatever, becomes a bigger and bigger challenge. And in just looking at a name on the board, you frequently have no idea of what that beer really is. So, something like this where you're going back to the basics, this is what you're going to get. I think must be very attractive. TA: I thought so. I thought the cleanliness of it for us, which was just straightforward and nomenclature and deliverable, like this is this is what you can expect and... JD: Your label designs are very clean and very clear. Where Lost Abbey looks much more European, Medieval in a lot of ways. TA: And we went out and we went out and hired a firm for the first time to really, we told them this is what our vision is and this is why we're doing it this way, but we want you to make sure we produce this with a very crisp look to it. And they, they certainly executed that and I, and I think that's always been a strength of that brand. JD: Yeah. Let me ask you a little bit about the latest venture, Moto Sonora. I read that this was evidently your college roommate you are in partnerships with and his younger brother. And, of course, this is taking you back to Arizona. TA: It is. Tucson, not Flagstaff. I wish it was in Flagstaff, but I'm going to come to like Tucson cause it's closer. But yeah, my, it's kind of ironic because this was a random sort of thing back when, when I was in college with Jeff. Jeff really wasn't a big beer drinker but it turns out but his brother Jeremy really fell in love with craft beer and the two of them kind of decided that they have a high value for the city of Tucson. They loved that area. They've got deep roots in the community there. Their family, the DeConcini family's been a, been a big part of the Arizona scene and they just wanted to do this project. And I started talking to them as a consultant and just kind of saying, let me, let me hear what you're thinking. And then they said, well, maybe you could spend some more time on it. And I said, yeah, I've got the time to do that. TA: Let's, let's do this. So, I am coming in as one of the co-founders on that project. Port Brewing is not involved in the sense that we're not invested in it. JD: That was a question I had. TA: We're not, Port Brewing is not an investor in the company. Although I have permission with my partners to supply as many ingredients and things, you know, that we can, we can work to make sure that the beers there are at the highest, you know, sort of capacity. And if it means we're buying the hops and selling them hops and things like that, that's gonna happen. You know, I see it as potentially a training ground where if one of our brewers wants the position when we get going or they, you know, we want to move people out that way. But this is not anything more than a co-founding situation where I have the freedom to go tight, you know, take on other projects. I, I kind of liken it to chefs having multiple locations or bar owners having, you know, other projects and things. But I'm not moving to Tucson and I'm not going to be the head brewer there. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to establish what we're doing and push the company in the right direction and make sure that we become a really valuable part of that community. We've been definitely looking forward to the, just being involved in it and you know, a different beer scene at the same time. JD: Well, this kind of jumps over some of the questions I have because it leads into the amount of mentoring and work with newer brewers and the collaborations you do with the more established brewers. You are renowned in the industry for how people can come to you and pick your brain and you support and mentor in so many different ways. I see you as a one-person campaign to ensure craft beer success. And, and this is in comparison with efforts like Stone's True Craft where there were more financial assistance. Have you always been a remarkable mentor? It sounds kind of like, you know, you're, you're thinking to become a teacher. TA: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, right? It's a, it's a sense of, you know, that shared piece. You know, I remember very, very early in my, in my Solana Beach days, I wanted to make a Saison-style beer and I needed to find somebody who could give me the answer for how much ginger I was supposed to put in the beer. Cause I wanted to make the beer with some ginger. And there weren't many places where I could turn to. And I picked up the phone one day and I called the owner of Left-Hand Brewing Company, his name was Dick Doore. And I said, Dick, you guys have this amazing Juju, ginger pale ale. I love it. Would you be willing to share that information with me? And he did. And he, you know, and we'd barely met. And it was one of those things that, okay, yeah, that's how the industry works. Right. And you know, this is something that I think Troy had put in my head back in the day was like, there are the right people to be talking to and then there's the wrong people. And the wrong people are the ones that don't freely exchange the information, or they don't, they don't try to push it uphill. And for the longest time we had so much work to do in this town to push the level uphill that we collectively had to talk about it. I mean, everybody I think that you would interview would have the similar sense of if we didn't all work together then we wouldn't have gotten to where we were. JD: Isn't that the principle behind the San Diego Brewers Guild? TA: Of course, you know, the very first Guild meeting was out at La Cruda. So yeah. Yes, for sure that the Guild, you know, I think we were the very first city in the country to have its own brewers guild. And that, that's kind of a, you know, a feather in the cap for what I think, you know, the old, the old guard or the people that really did, you know, hunker down back in the day was that there was a true sense that there was going to be something really good about the scene here. But we had to work really hard at it. So, I've always liked that conversational aspect of it. I believe that I can, I can ask the right questions with friends and people and, and if I can turn around and get that information back out, it makes sense. So yeah, why not? I mean, there's, there's very little, I guess I don't feel very competitive or threatened by it by that, you know, that dialogue or that sharing of information. JD: I think that's, I mean, I, I'm on certain, like the San Diego Plexus Facebook group and stuff, and your name comes up and everybody says, Tomme Arthur, he's the person to talk to. He is the god locally, you know, I mean, your name is always used in very positive way, which I think really speaks to the efforts that you have put into the community and supporting, especially newer brewers, but also working with other established brewers and not treating it as competition but treating it as we can all be better. TA: And I think the one thing that's kind of maddening these days, and this is, this is my personal soap box, is that there's a lot of people that are collaborating on things. And I'm, I'm very concerned about this new sense of collaborating because I don't know that it's doing much other than it's bringing people together. And then you say, well what did we change and what did we do? And I'm like, okay. But I think the collaborative narrative of old was we collaborated on something because it was going to be something demonstratively different than we could have done singularly. And I'm not sure that much of that's going on today. So, when we collaborate with an old guard or with someone new, we're, we're really trying to have a sense of purpose. And I hope that people continue to realize that just collaborating with someone for the sake of sales isn't always, I guess from where I come, from isn't always the best course of action. JD: Again, going to your mentoring, have you had the opportunity to open doors for specific groups? And I'm thinking women or minorities or people with disabilities, people, you know, because the standard concept of a brewer is a male, white guy, you know, I mean that just still is. It's not that way anymore. But have you had opportunities to work with or speak to groups to encourage them? TA: I was thinking about this the other day because you know, I look at our staff, it is generally mostly male. We have had a few female employees on the beer side in the past and they've been phenomenal employees. And I was thinking the other day that we haven't done enough in our world to cultivate that specifically. And I know the Brewers Association is pretty keen on promoting diversity and things these days. And I'm wondering as an educational mentor, et cetera, where I should be looking to do some of those things or how I get involved in that. You know, where, where can I be impactful in that, in that space. And I don't know if it's through the university or through, you know, there's a big Latino population up here in San Marcos and Vista. But clearly, you know, being white and being white isn't always the best thing. With respect to trying to, you know, we've got to find new, new people to energize and really enthuse about what we do. And preaching to the 40-year-old male white choir isn't, isn't the best place to live in. JD: Well, I don't know if you're aware of Border X (Brewing), which is of course down in Barrio Logan has, is sponsoring a women's beer club called Mujeres Brew Club. I'm sorry, I, my Spanish isn't that swell. And they invited me to be their first speaker and they're doing a meeting each month on a different aspect and at the end they are going to brew a beer at Border X. And the women that are in there, many of them don't know even beer styles. I mean, one woman evidently asked the question, what's an IPA? And so, you know, and it's, it's a safe space for women and it does have a large number of Latina women, which I think is phenomenal because maybe some of these will become brewers and there are women are working in the beer industry in San Diego who are also members. Some of them are speakers and some are just attending the meetings because they're always eager to learn more. So maybe reaching out to, or you know, helping sponsor a group like that or Pink Boots Society (international organization for women and non-binary people in the fermentation industry. The first chapter was founded in San Diego.) of course, you know, is always looking for speakers and educational opportunities and things. But you know, there's a growing presence, but it is hard to, when women are so scattered or you know, like you say it's underrepresented with the minorities or you know, and there are certain positions that probably someone with a physical disability couldn't perform in a brewhouse, what could they do? Can they be the quality control people, things like that. So, it seems like there are places that we need to increase. TA: Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking about this again the other day. I was like, we just don't have that many women apply for jobs. It's, it's you know, I, you know, I have a, a fairly good amount of men working, you know males, working on the floor. But I can't remember the last time I saw an application come in for a brewing position from a woman. So somehow the outreach needs to get further than, you know, I'm talking entry-level packaging jobs, things like that. There's, there's clearly, you know, there's, it's not a bias in our world. They're just not coming and knocking down our door. So somehow we have to convince them that this isn't, this is a pretty good place where they could, you know, they can, they can find careers and homes. JD: Well, if you do want to advertise positions, I have a couple of resources. I can push things out to Pink Boots San Diego for one. And then there's another Facebook page of women interested in beer. Some are working in the industry ; some are maybe looking to get into the industry. And of course, maybe pushing the word out to the EngiBeering® program at Cal State San Marcos. ‘Cause there are, there's at least a couple of women enrolled in that program. But yeah, it's hard because there aren't many women available to bring in. But then, you know, we do have a, you know, a fairly strong Hispanic population in this area. So, you know, why can't we leverage that? And it's finding those points of contact. That's a, that's a continual problem that I have seen. Also, to kind of jump back, I mentioned Stone's True Craft effort, which, you know, obviously died. It was a great idea to help small, small breweries with financing to where they didn't have to sell themselves to big beer. What did you think of that idea when you thought, heard of it? TA: You know, I had a lot of friends that took meetings with them. I mean, at least on the surface I was told, you know, Hey, we've, we've gone and talked to them about it. I think the biggest challenge was, is that that was at a time when there was a lot of unrealistic expectations about valuations and what, what things were worth or how, how long term, you know, how companies would be out, people would work long term together. You know, it's an interesting model because this business is such a, almost a loner thing. Like most people open their own little brewery and then at some point you need more investment in that comes with a lot more triggers and kinds of parameters and stuff in some small breweries never outgrow the small, you know, model. They, I'm the single proprietor, not me. They are a single proprietor, ownership kind of environment and you know, they borrow money from the bank and that's what they get and that's what they want to be. You know, there's a very passionate pursuit for them. And then there's the big business side of it, which says if you're going to scale and grow and you know, buying equipment is not cheap and putting concrete in the ground and copper piping and just every single thing you could think of. JD: And the length time it takes to just deal with all the permitting within the city, within the state, with the ABC (California’s Alcoholic Beverage Control agency in charge of licensing alcohol production, distribution and sales.) TA: And the regulatory. Yeah. All of those pieces. So I applaud Greg for, and Steve, for putting the platform together. You know, the, I think the biggest hurdle for a lot of people is just how, how do you entrepreneurially sign up for something like that? Right? It's, it's, you know, it's a different, it's a different (unclear) in you. You're talking about an environment where you went from being in charge of your own facility to now having new investment that comes with different, again, different triggers and things. I think it's interesting cause nobody signed up to do it and I don't know if that was that the metrics didn't align or how that was. But I know a lot of people took meetings and so I guess the question is, is what, what was, what was unrealistic on both sides for, for that, how come it, how come they didn't get anybody to, to partner with? JD: Yeah. I'm, I don't know who took meetings, but it would be interesting to talk to them to ask them why they didn't pursue that, and did they find an alternative that worked better for them. So that's on my list of things to do. Since we've mentioned big beer, have you ever been approached by big beer with an offer to purchase you or to work with them in some sort of way? TA: No. In the 13 years that we've been open no one has put an offer sheet on the table and said, we want to buy you for XYZ dollars or otherwise. We have met with some family offices, venture people, people, you know, my thing is we'll take any meeting just to say hi. Mostly to learn about what people are looking for, what they're doing. But pretty emphatically we've never actually been offered, no one's ever actually offered to purchase us in, in a minority capacity and majority otherwise. So no. JD: Good. I won't ask you what your response would be, but do you think that maybe partly it's because, I don't want to say you do extreme beers, but you do less run-of-the-mill beers in many cases that might just be something that big beer would not find attractive. TA: If we live in a fringe world, we're, you know, we're sort of known as a super-premium producer and we have a lot of niches that we feel from barrels and sour. You know, they've, big breweries have a need in sometimes to do that, but they, they, I think they've found those elsewhere and they want scale and they want all kinds of things. You know, San Diego is an interesting model, right. We had Ballast Point sold, you know, Green Flash had sold and we've had a lot of big, bigger companies come through and, and, and have taken investments. And so I don't know if there was any real need beyond, I think big beer came and found what they needed from San Diego. I'd be surprised if, if there's any big beer-ness left in San Diego. I mean, I say that, and you know, we'll see. But you know, I, I don't, I don't really feel like that the big beer is kind of be knocking down the doors in San Diego anytime soon. JD: They got their toe in. TA: Potentially because of the desaturation and just some of the difficulties that they might experience. ah, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole run of things and it really has to do with, you know, where can they, where can they scale and where can they find their return on their investment and things like that. JD: Yeah, no, that's what they're looking at is a bottom line. TA: It is 100% about how much can they make on what they're buying it. Yeah. JD: Because your beers are not run of the mill Coors-type beers, not to bash Coors, but just, you know, as an example, where did you get your early inspirations? I mean, you, you said you like the Belgians and you were exposed to a wide variety of European and, and what craft beer was made in the US. But things like oak aging and sour beers, were those things that you were exposed to early on or were those things that you found out later while you were experimenting? TA: Yeah, it was early. I remember, I remember my first Chimay Red. I remember my first Guinness and I vividly remember the very first Rodenbach I ever had. And I, you know, the Rodenbach I think hit me more than anything else in that really portend, you know, that really does explain why, you know, like, Oh my God, that's okay. I know there's weird beer out there, but this is way to the left, right? This thing is way, way downstream from anything I'd had at that point. You know, I was, when on the four years I was in college, I was sampling a lot of beers and then I continued to continue to buy beer. And, and it's just when you get one that's put in front of you and you say, wow, how did they do that? And that was kind of the, the aha that was the light bulb, I think was, was that first Rodenbach. That somebody who's living in a world where that, that's so to the extreme and delicious. But why can't, why can't I, why can't I think about beer like that? And that's, that definitely pushed me in that direction. JD: Well that's great to have such an open mind. Do you remember who, if anyone else was doing things like barrel aging and sour beers or anything when you started doing it? TA: Vinnie (Cilurzo, founded Blind Pig Brewing in Temecula, CA before moving to Northern California to found Russian River Brewing.) and I joke about this a lot cause Vinnie at Russian River and I are pretty good friends and a lot of it comes back to when we first picked up oak barrels and really got into that, you know, late 19, late 1990s, you know, the first batch of cuvée that we were making and they were making beer called Temptation. There was very little of that going on and I knew Belgian had (inaudible. in the market. But out West there weren't a lot of people making sour beer in barrels. And so we had to just kinda kick the can on how to do it. Talk collectively. Again, it got back to, we were not we did not, you know, you know, withhold the secrets. And we talked a lot about the what ifs and things and that I think was a big, big part of the success was just, okay, how are we going to do this in this environment? Because again, you couldn't open a book and read how to do it. Today you can open plenty of books. JD: Or just find it out there on the web. TA: I mean, you pick up the phone and call someone, but then back then it isn't, you know, how do you manage your barrel program or what do you, how do you do this? It was, well, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this. Okay. That sounds like that. That seems reasonable to me. JD: Oh, so you can't think of anybody specifically locally though? You, I mean, Vinnie, to me, is still local as they were nearby-- TA: For sure, it’s California. JD: but I'm thinking in San Diego. TA: You know, I don't know if we, I always say we, being Pizza Port. I don't know if we were the first ones to make intentionally sour beer in San Diego. I don't recall running into it anywhere at that point. But for the sake of clarity, I never say we were the first ones because I truly don't know. There was some oak aging going on the guys at Rock Bottom (Restaurant and Brewery) in La Jolla specifically ‘cause I got barrels from them. AleSmith (Brewing Company)I think was right about that same time, ‘97, ’98-ish where they were getting into having some bourbon barrel kind of things going on. JD: But that was Skip (Virgilio founded AleSmith Brewing and later sold to Peter and Vicky Zien.). TA: Skip doing that. There was not a lot of sour beer in California at that point. So, or even San Diego can that I can recall. JD: I’m glad sour beer’s around. Okay. You just mentioned cuvée. And I've seen it said that that is your favorite beer. TA: Perhaps. JD: Yeah. Perhaps. TA: It’s the only one that bears my name (Cuvée du Tomme). How's that? JD: That's true. That's true. On the other hand, is there a beer that you ever made that you didn't care for, but everybody else said, no, we've got to put this on tap. TA: Ooh, that's a damn good question. JD: Did they, did it actually sell well? TA: There is a running joke here at the brewery. We made a beer a few years ago called Spontaneous Cheer. And the Spontaneous Cheer was a peach sour and it was actually spontaneously fermented. So we, we've got some spontaneous fermentation barrels and things that we do from time to time and we have a large library of barrels. We have over a thousand oak barrels full of now and we made this batch of beer and it tasted pretty darn good. That being said, I struggled with it personally because it didn't really manifest our house culture. We have a very strong sour beer sense. Like there's a terroir in our world. You can taste the Lost Abbey beer and it's white grapey and it's stone peach fruit. And you can tell that there's something about the way that we blend in and package. And that beer had none of it, even though it was a peach beer. But that's because all of the cultures came from the spontaneous portion. And so, people were like, you have to release this beer. And I can't in good conscience release it because you could open it in a tasting room in Texas and you'd have no idea it came from us and what's the point of that? So that's probably the one in this environment that had garnered a lot of energy I would say, okay, that's not what I was, didn't hate the beer, just wasn't keen on it. Bearing the name Lost Abbey being sour and didn't, didn't exude us. JD: And so you have not brewed it again since. TA: No, we haven’t. Even though we likely could, and people would freak for it, but it doesn't, again, it gets really to the point of, you know, we're really trying to have that identity in a big sea of imitations. I would think that that was probably a one-and-done. I'd be surprised if it came back. JD: Okay, if I ever see an unopened bottle of it, I'll know that that's truly special. TA: So we never bottled it. That's the only bottle that I think, I mean it was, it was literally only one oak barrel, so 50 gallons. But I think we only bottled it. I had a friend who had a baby and there was a request, but I, there shouldn't, there shouldn't be any bottles of that out in the world. There are, they probably aren't real. JD: Yeah. Well, we'll know that they are shams. What was your very first award for brewing? TA: That's a good question. JD: You've had so many. TA: I know like, let's see. We had strong ale in 19... Well, okay. The very first award that I know for certain was the gold medal that I participated in at La Cruda. We won a gold medal (awarded at the Great American Beer Festival) for the Makanudo Porter, but that was not my beer and I was not the recipe generator. So I would say probably a beer that we brewed at Pizza Port and that was part of the Strong Ale Festival in ‘97 or ‘98. And then at that point we started entering the Real Ale Festival in Chicago or some California State Fair stuff. We did not win a GABF (Great American Beer Festival.) award until 1999, 2000. JD: Shame on them. TA: It took me a little while to figure out where our beers sort of fit in the competitive landscape. JD: The pantheon of beers. TA: So once I figured that part out, we got on a roll pretty, quickly. JD: That does seem to be a little bit of a challenge cause I'm a member of the Society of Barley Engineers when they talk about submitting for homebrew (competitions). Sometimes there are quite intense discussions about where a particular beer, that somebody’s having everybody sample, what category that fits into. And you do then deal with judges’ taste buds. Which, you know, it's a constantly moving landscape. TA: I’ve been a GABF judge since ‘99-ish. And that has afforded me an enormous amount of opportunities to watch the process, participate in it, and even potentially piss off brewers and people who maybe didn't, you know, like the way that it went. It's fascinating to watch the competition evolve at a table relative to the dialogue, the strength of the judges, the opinions of the judges. Even just the sheer age of the, the judging has come from, there were only this block of people that used to do it and now it's expanded and now the categories have morphed and they're different. And the, you know, we talk about it a lot because it's, it's interesting to see how difficult, first of all, there's so many more beers, but the sheer, the sheer perspective that people are operating under relative to, I've had these style beers or I've never been think about, okay, I'm supposed to judge a Kölsch-style beer, but I'm a judge and I've never been to Cologne and had the six beers from there that are the, that are the standards. Well, how do you judge that? Like that's, that's a, it's an interesting scenario because you're being asked to read this against what was written, how this is how a standard should taste. Yet. You've never been in situ and had that environmental condition. JD: Right, with that terroir and all everything else, all those factors that work into it. TA: 100 percent. I do agree with you that there's, one of the things about entering competitively is that there's so many different places beers can fit and sometimes it's really environmentally like time and place. Sometimes the beer exudes more oak and sometimes it doesn’t, and it wants to be in an oak category, but it can't cause it has brett (industry jargon for Brettanomyces, a fungi used to sour beer.) We did a sampling a couple months ago back in early July and I think we went through 20 different beers for GABF trying to get down to the five that we wanted to send. And in order to do that we had to kind of pick the beers. We'd, you know, we brought out all the beers that we thought were really well done and then we had to go say, well that would fit here, wouldn't fit here, but it probably fits best here, but we don't want to send that beer there because we already have another one that wants to go there. So, you don't wanna compete against yourself either? JD: Now are you limited to five beers for competition? TA: Of late? They've been in the four to five range. Okay. A few years ago, you could send up to eight and prior to that it was kind of unlimited. But when it went from eight to five it got a lot harder. JD: Yeah. But it just seems like, I mean you can see what thousands of entries that seems like and yeah-- TA: I think there's over 8,000 beers that'll be judged. But we always say this, it's like if, if back when we were going to sending eight beers, I don't know if we make eight world-class beers every fall. Right? So how many are really well done and how many of them are like, you know, that far up the channel. I think we make eight great beers but are they going to sit at the table and really, really compete. But I think when you have eight versus four, your odds are better. But perhaps being in categories that some, some years are strong, and some years are weak, is, is where it kind of comes from. JD: Yeah. But you're also trying to be selective. I'm sure there are people that “I'll send as many beers as I can to increase my odds of winning an award.” Because of course the GABF awards still mean a lot. TA: Yeah. There was a year, I know this to be true, where at least one or two breweries that don't need to be, and they're not from San Diego, sent somewhere between 30 to 50 beers. And didn't win an award. And these are pretty good breweries. So, you know, you're talking about the shotgun approach. You hit the side of the barn. But it was pretty interesting to see that they didn't win. You know, the years of late where we haven't, we haven't managed to win an award. You know, we look up and we talked to the guys and we say, you know, look at the breweries that didn't win. Like, you know, these are, these are still some, you know, solid, solid producers and congratulations to the ones that did. But yeah, there's no guarantee anymore. I mean, winning one is a pretty dang good achievement. JD: Yeah. Well then in some cases, like just recently, what happens to the beer while is being transported? It could completely knock a perfectly good beer that left here out of any consideration because what happens to it or it doesn't even get there. TA: Yeah. So we've tried to mitigate that as best we can. Where the consolidation point and we have been for a long time that helps with refrigeration and, you know, just really making sure that the beer is better taken care of, competitive, you know, competitive judging or, you know, competitive brewing. I would say this is far different than it was 10, 15 years ago. JD: I guess for good and for bad both. But back to your awards, is there any award that you have one that is the most meaningful to you? Not to discount the other awards. TA: Sure, I think two really come to mind. The, we've been lucky to win a (GABF) Brewery of the Year award four different times. And I'm, I'm personally, I really want to get to five. I want to have that. I want to have that, that last one on the, you know, in that, you know, if I, if they gave out rings, I want to have the handful. The last time we won was 2007, so it's been a long time. And we may never get that opportunity again. I think the one that I won last year, which was the Russell Schehrer Award for Innovation and Craft Brewing, that that's you know, that's a hall of fame landscape kind of thing. And it just speaks to the community involvement and the, you know, being, being a participant in this, you know, only 22 people have won it at that point. And I, I, yeah, the legacy award, you know, something like that. I mean, I, I still love, I love the GABF and World Beer (Cup) Awards, a couple of awards cause they're, you know, they're purely blind. They're your peers. They show your team that they're, you know, they're making the right decisions. But the Russell award was probably the one that was singular in the sense that that was, you know, personally with my name on it. Where it's almost every other award that we've had that we've been lucky enough to garner comes with somebody else, you know, participating in doing work in that regard. JD: Yeah. Okay. Well, very good. So, we're just about at the end of all my questions, from your experience, is there anything in the way of advice or a lesson you've learned or anything else that you think either can't be said enough or you haven't ever had the opportunity to say? TA: You know, I think that we were talking yesterday, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about how difficult this business has become and there's a lot of noise and chatter and 50 years from now when someone's looking at this, they'll say, wow it's not as easy as it used to be. And I don't know where the fall line's going to be. We're going to get to 10,000 breweries in this country. I don't doubt that that'll happen. And I don't know where, where the relevancy will be. I don't know what it will look like. I feel pretty strongly that in the time that I've been lucky enough to be in this business, a lot of what's made us successful has come from a very strong sense of this is the beer I want to produce. And nowadays there seems to be a lot of, you have to just do what the consumer is saying they want. And tons of breweries I think are kind of losing their way, respectful of an identity. And I don't know if the artist in me can, can sort of reconcile that for the long haul. I think there's this sense that if, if that's the way the industry is going, you know, is that what I signed up for? Part of me wants to see the consumerism shift and I, I talk about this a lot, but it's kind of like when you throw the boomerang out, it comes back a little slower than it went out and maybe the boomerang is coming back. You know, that there's just too much ubiquity right now. But maybe not. Maybe with 10,000 brewers, you just, there is ubiquity and that's just part of the nature of it. But you know, I think the success that I've had, you know, in this business has been built on beers that, that, that have something that look and tastes like things that I've, you know, imagined and there's been a lot of success for that. But I don't know how you continue to do that when there's 10,000 imitators and people trying to, trying to find the same sort of, you know, sense of their worth. So for me, I think the biggest thing moving forward is just where, where do we all fit in? It's just dense stuff. JD: Giving everybody a chance to attain their dream. But yeah, you know. TA: Yeah. I think that we're going to see, I think in the next two years we're going to see a lot of dreams getting crushed because it's getting, it's getting even harder today than it was probably a year ago. But there might be a light at the end of the tunnel in the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of distributor consolidation. There's been a lot of breweries, what they say, you know, rightsizing or trying to figure this all out. But it's a business. It's gonna eat people alive, you know? And, and that's what businesses do, right? There's, there is this, there's, there's a success rate attributed to craft beer that's not as high. I mean, it's higher than most consumer goods, and there will probably be a little bit more reckoning that will come along with it because you just can't, you just can't all swim in the same ocean. It just doesn't work. And so we're going to find some sense of corrective correlations. I mean, we're going to find smaller, you know, people are going to be making less beer for the next few years and if you're actively making more beer, you're one of the very few people that's, that's winning in that, in that space. JD: It does seem like we had a real bump up in numbers of breweries that opened in 2016-2017 which is being that this is 2019, we're looking at entering the fourth and fifth year of leases for a lot of the breweries. And I think that might be a time where people are going to have to sit down and assess. TA: Sure. I mean, if you've got a five-year lease and you're about to come into that fourth year, you're in the fourth year and you're now triggering the, am I going to renew? Right. I haven't, I haven't been taking a paycheck or I've been taking very little. And then at some point you're like, are we, is this a real thing? You know, I don't, I don't know. You know, people, people certainly I think come into it, you know, really, you know, eager and excited about it. And then little by little you're, you're grinding and there's a lot of grinding going on right now, which is okay, but you know, there's, but grinding isn't fun. JD: No. And when people come into it with a passion, which is a term you used earlier, passion cannot sustain you forever, unfortunately. I mean, it's what maybe gets you up the next morning, but at some point it's not paying the bills and you have managed to raise a family, you know, other people, you know, that they've got investors that may or may not understand the actual brewing industry and cause and effect and impacts. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see what happens. TA: Yeah. I've been pretty lucky. My partnership here hasn't had an unrealistic expectation of financial return. And, and you know, so, you know, we, we opened our doors, we borrowed some money, we repaid the money, and then we've basically reinvested all of that money into the company when we needed to. So we are not sitting here saying okay, you're, you know, you were relying on us for a dividend. And you know, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. But the, the business of beer is very difficult. And you know, you, you talked about that word passion. We, when we opened our doors, I published this list of the 10 commandments of our brewery and one of the 10 commandments was that you, you know, passion isn't something you can buy at the corner store. And I meant that with a sense of like, if you come into this, you know, you can't just throw that term around. Like you've got to live it and breathe it. And I think that that kind of what you were speaking to earlier is, is, has always been like, I think there's a lot of people that will say, I am very passionate about what I do. And I have been, and that's, you know, over the 20 plus years I've been doing this. That's that, that is a word that I would associate with, with getting out of bed every day. And it's been very, it's been very conducive to being successful. That being said, you don't have to be overly passionate, but you have to be, you still have to be passionate about getting out of bed every day, even when you're struggling, even when you're not killing it. And I can guarantee you right now, there's a lot of people when they're getting out of bed who used to kill it and were, you know, who thought they were going to kill it and are saying to themselves, man, this is, this is real. Like, and you know, how do you, how do you put your game face on and, and, and really keep, keep grinding and to tackle the, you know, look, we want to get to the other side. JD: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be a long face when your consumers come in because they're going to say, Hey, I came in here for a beer and a good time. TA: I am here. I am here for a good time. Right. Any happy people? JD: Oh dear. Oh dear. Something that just came to me, which is not on the list of questions, but we are sitting in the space that Stone originated at. And you had just mentioned that you've expanded. Talk a little bit about the physical plant. What was it like when you moved in as Lost Abbey? What did you have to do to it and how many times have you expanded? TA: All right. So, when we took over in January of 2006 and Stone moved out to the facility in Escondido, they controlled at that point about 30,000 square feet of I think the building is 85,000 square feet. So, they had about a third of it. And when they moved out, we collapsed the entire building back down to their original suite, suite 104, and that suite is 7,500 square feet. So, we started with a 30-barrel brewhouse in 19, I'm sorry, in 2006. And we had 30, 7,500 square feet, including the tasting room, cold box, and our barrel warehouse. In 2009, I believe we moved across the parking lot and took over another 10,000 square feet and moved the cold box, all the barrels and our distribution. So, for awhile we had that space. We were up to about 17,000 square feet. 2012 or so we took over this suite that we're sitting in here, which was another 7,500 square feet. So that allowed us to build our packaging hall, this office, the lab, things like that. We rolled for the next few years, for the next five years. We had that 27,000 square feet of space. And then we added we added a second, third, fourth warehouse across the parking lot. And that took us to almost 40,000 square feet. And then last January we moved out of that distribution warehouse into another building here, which is now connected from the front of the street to the back. Behind us. We control 40,000 square feet under one roof line for the first time. And we moved out of the facility across the parking lot, all of our barrels and everything. So we now are under one building, one roof line. We can't drive from the packaging hall to the rest of the building. But every other building we can drive forklifts through. And that never happened. Two years ago, we owned four (forklifts) ‘cause we had four different buildings. JD: Now does Port distribute all the beers here in San Marcos? TA: Everything comes out of this facility. We are doing a batch or two a year out of the Pizza Port facility when we need to, but we don't, it's this, this facility can handle a lot more beer than we're currently making. So most, most everything that has the word Port Brewing, Lost Abbey, or Hop Concept on it has come out of San Marcos. It's only been this year that we've brewed two or three batches of beer down the street at Pizza Port. And most of that was for efficiency to do big runs of things that we could, we did a giant Hop Freshener, Hop Concept release at Costco and needed to have beer all at the same time. JD: So are you, in Costcos outside of California as well? TA: No, and that has been something we haven't really tackled or looked at. JD: Like it would be just an overwhelming amount of production yet I think... TA: Costco's pretty, pretty keen on a lot of local these days, at least for beer. So, I don't know how relevant we would, you know, we might be able to get into some in Arizona, maybe in Washington and Northern California, but you know, there's a ton of breweries in each of those locations. Tapping the same buyer on the shoulder saying, can I get, can I get in here? And, and the buyers probably got enough options that they don't even need something from out of here. And frankly, the cost associated with getting it to them would almost make it prohibitive in terms of trying to put it on the shelf at their right price point. JD: Yeah. Have you ever had to turn down any kind of requests because you just knew that trying to fill that big an order was going to just break you? TA: No, we've, we've been pretty lucky in the sense that when we do get we just came off of couple of pretty good-sized Costco orders and they were about 40 pallets worth of beer. But the brewery can handle that without being too burdened in the sense. I mean, it's certainly a lot of attention on one thing but we're not overly stretched at our capacity right now. So, when those things pop up, we certainly snap at them and want, you know we wanna make sure we execute on it. If we were making a lot more beer, we probably would have, we would struggle with that a little more. But when you get an order for 40 pallets of beer, you figure it out, you know, you really do. JD: When we walked back here, we passed one of your employees building a bike. What other sorts of things do you do with the employees or for the employees to support maybe their self-education, other interests that they have, things like that. TA: We've definitely put it on our radar this year. We've lost a lot of employees in the last two years. I think we've turned over 20 employees and we only have about 50 total. So, we've put an emphasis on that level of communication, you know, what can we do to assist you in this endeavor? It's not something that we've programmed in the past or been terribly good at. That being said, we haven't, we have really seen that there are some simple opportunities to do things like that and Tim's running his own small bike shop and it's just a, you know, it's a pocket, pocketed space here at the brewery. You know, we've announced that if there's other brewer or other brewery employees from the tasting room all the way up that have an idea, we would love to hear about it. We don't make a dime on it. There's no, there's no real emphasis towards, you know, trying to co-partner on things. It's just we, we want to, we want to foster the opportunities if it makes sense. And Tim's the pilot sort of program right now with the bike, the little bike shop that he's running and it gets interesting, I hope. I hope it sparks other employees to say, okay, cool, I've wanted to do this, that or the other and it looks like I could and come to us and say, ‘Oh, could you carve out this space again?’ We are, we are under more, more efficient space right now and we do have a little bit of room. So, I hope that, I hope somebody else says, okay, I want to do this and it, and it fits the needs and the use and isn't a big deal. It'd be great because it means that we can, we can continue to lift what they want to be a part of and retain them at some time. JD: Yeah. Very good. It was fun. Oh, okay. Well, I think that pretty much has run through my list plus of questions for you about your career, your history, and what's going on with Lost Abbey/Port Brewing. And I want to thank you for that. And I'm going to go ahead and turn this off. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arthur, Tomme. Interview August 8, 2019 Description An account of the resource Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures; mentoring individuals in the industry; and awards. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-044 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tomme Arthur Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bridget Blanshan OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Blanshan, Bridget. Interview April 26th, 2023. SC027-41 01:11:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs ; Education, Higher ; Human rights ; San Marcos (Calif.) Bridget Blanshan Michael De Maria BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.mp4 1:|29(8)|41(7)|54(13)|63(5)|77(7)|91(13)|101(12)|113(5)|124(4)|144(10)|158(13)|169(3)|182(15)|192(14)|205(7)|226(15)|235(2)|244(13)|254(7)|268(4)|282(12)|292(9)|301(5)|317(12)|328(3)|341(8)|350(12)|358(13)|376(4)|392(6)|401(15)|412(4)|423(11)|427(6)|438(8)|447(12)|474(8)|494(10)|509(12)|517(13)|529(11)|542(14)|553(11)|565(7)|580(6)|600(11)|612(14)|627(11)|635(10)|652(10)|661(6)|675(8)|684(10)|705(3)|719(5)|740(15)|751(4)|761(7)|770(9)|787(5)|797(3)|810(10)|823(5)|845(4)|855(12)|866(7)|876(2)|885(4)|916(8)|924(15)|936(16)|953(6)|961(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/64050652e0eb6e5394c893ea21cb13c0.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and Educational Background Michael De Maria introduces Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos, and asks about her educational background. Blanshan discusses her background beginning with her bachelor's in business management from Iowa State, working at San Diego State, and obtaining her master's from University of San Diego. 0 305 First Impressions of CSUSM Blanshan recounts her experience joining CSUSM after eleven years at San Diego State University. In particular, Blanshan discusses her role in the development of the University Village Apartments and student residential life overall. As on-campus housing emerged, Blanshan noted the shift in demographics as more younger students began enrolling. The foundations of student life on-campus were beginning around the time Blanshan joined CSUSM, which offered her a unique perspective on its development. 0 575 A Call for Student Centers Blanshan recalls her 2002 article "Vision 2010" whereby she proclaimed the need for multicultural (or cross-cultural) centers on college campuses. She cites the differing needs of students who find community through various means, whether that be Greek Life, sports, arts, or student centers ; identities have to be validated and confirmed. Blanshan discusses the importance of understanding inclusivity and diversity. 0 922 Social Climate Prior to Multicultural Center After stressing her singular perspective, Blanshan considers the differences between the urban San Diego with a more-conservative San Marcos region. In such a region, how might queer students, for instance, be under serviced if they do not have a safe space to express their identities? CSUSM student centers had their foundation in the Multicultural Center. 0 1182 Diversity at CSUSM Blanshan details how the Cross-Cultural Center and other student identity-focused centers exemplify the notion of diversity at CSUSM and how intersectionality reminds us to recognize the unique identities of every individual. Blanshan also discusses how centers on campus offer students a safe space to engage with inclusive and diverse communities which represent their multifaceted identities. Blanshan notes the importance of unity through both shared and different identities. 0 1414 Blanshan's Participation with the CCC Blanshan recalls the handful of initiatives and events that Blanshan directly organized with the CCC, including a first-week student welcome and the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. The former stressed the importance of recognizing and creating diverse spaces to be inclusive. The latter was a weekend retreat for students. 0 1766 Activism Through the CCC Blanshan emphasizes the importance of synergy among CSUSM student centers, and how with their unique communities, goals, and demands, they work together to promote the acceptance of diversity and thus a more inclusive experience on campus. She further discusses the Black Student Center, the Women and Gender Equity Center, the Latin /x Center, the Pride Center, and others that come provide space for student activism. Blanshan elaborates on how these centers are both a result and a factor in student activism. 0 2144 Opposition to Diversity &amp ; Inclusivity Blanshan recounts opposition to her work for student diversity and inclusivity. "Challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed," according to Blanshan, and it is important to hear and include those doubtful voices in conversations of progress. In the 21st century, workplaces are increasingly diverse and Blanshan stresses the importance of recognizing diversity to create inclusivity, and acceptance of those with differences as opposed to mere tolerance. 0 2481 Favorite Memories Blanshan recalls the weekend retreats with students among her favorite memories. Being able to engage in open dialogues with a diverse community of students reinforced Blanshan's work in promoting inclusivity. She also enjoyed the development of the center itself under then-director, Floyd Lai. 0 2691 Blanshan's Doctorate and Dissertation The findings of Blanshan's 2007 dissertation (A study in multicultural awareness of residence hall directors in California colleges) are discussed. Blanshan cites the influence of Pope and Reynolds' conception of multicultural awareness, knowledge, and skill ; this multifaceted approach informed her study, which found moderately high levels of awareness across California campuses. 0 2911 Cross-Cultural Center and Student Retention Fondly remembering her experience with Dr. Gregory Toya, Blanshan recalls his association between Cross-Cultural Centers and student retention. Within this, she recalls a framework by Nancy Schlosberg whereby those who feel important and represented, are more likely to become or remain engaged. Blanshan discusses how recognizing and managing marginalization should be a cornerstone of the CCC. 0 3181 CCC Change Over Time and Professional Impact Blanshan recounts the center's evolution over time, starting with the change from Multicultural to Cross-Cultural Center. Blanshan discusses the foundation of the Activists Lab, where students engage in dialogues which challenge societal norms. Additionally, Blanshan defines how the center impacted her work as a professional, specifically in her role as Title IX Coordinator. 0 3529 The Cross-Cultural Center and other identity-specific centers Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center's coexistence with other student centers at CSUSM. Blanshan notes that the various student centers themselves recognize intersectionality and the individuality of each human experience, and that the Cross-Cultural Center allows students to "unpack unique areas of historical tension." Blanshan discusses that how issues evolve over time impact the roles of various centers, including the CCC, and that no center exists independently. 0 3768 Currently Underrepresented Communities Blanshan discusses underrepresented communities at CSUSM, including any student organization not affiliated with a center. Blanshan references Asian and Pacific Islander and American Indian students who cannot readily identify with a space on campus. While the Cross-Cultural Center provides space and resources to those underrepresented communities, Blanshan discusses the potential for future space at CSUSM for identity-based student centers. 0 4062 Advice for Student Advocacy For those seeking a career in student advocacy, Blanshan recommends an awareness of oneself and others ; focusing upon the motivation behind leadership informs the practice of advocacy for others. To make positive change, Blanshan thinks self-reflection is imperative. 0 Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational &amp ; professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body ; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there--you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things ; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin /x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students ; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting ; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different note- Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we--because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion ; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of--then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin /x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -- broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview April 26th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-41 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bridget Blanshan Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chanel Bradley OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. RED Campaign;Social Justice Summits;Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. SC027-35 01:12:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos RED Campaign ; Social Justice Summits ; Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship Chanel Bradley Michael De Maria BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.mp4 1:|11(3)|19(12)|31(6)|39(13)|49(3)|56(13)|63(2)|75(13)|88(9)|99(1)|108(5)|116(13)|129(12)|136(17)|147(10)|157(2)|167(15)|181(5)|193(7)|204(14)|217(11)|228(3)|240(7)|252(2)|262(13)|273(11)|285(3)|297(5)|308(7)|322(2)|329(14)|341(2)|352(11)|364(12)|375(10)|386(17)|397(8)|409(4)|420(6)|432(3)|440(10)|450(10)|460(5)|473(8)|485(5)|493(12)|502(3)|511(12)|521(2)|531(8)|540(5)|550(6)|563(3)|576(15)|588(2)|600(5)|611(2)|619(6)|633(2)|644(11)|654(14)|665(9)|679(11)|693(19)|704(9)|720(3)|730(8)|741(12)|750(11)|760(9)|771(11)|798(3)|800(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d4ea6df2420ccf154c84a6af1258992a.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction Michael De Maria interviews Chanel Bradley in regards to her background and experience at California State University San Marcos. 0 24 Childhood Bradley discusses growing up in a predominately white community in Orange County and how she formed community there. 0 152 Choosing to attend CSUSM and get involved in Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Bradley's parents wanted her close to home so she chose to attend CSUSM and live in the dorms. She originally attended the CCC due to all of its free resources but soon enjoyed the diverse community it created. Bradley soon began volunteering due to obtaining a misdemeanor but eventually applied as a peer educator at the center a few years later. Sara Sheikh ; Social Justice Summit ; multi-ethnic 0 458 First Social Justice Summit Experience/ Finding Her Voice Bradley discusses how as growing up she would often suppress her identity as a person of color to fit in. By attending the Social Justice Summit it gave her ways to express herself and to feel empowered within her identity. empowered ; Social Justice Summit 0 736 Using Her Creativity to Drive the CCC Bradley discusses how her creative nature was able to be put into practice at the CCC. She used games and slogans to help educate and encourage students to find their power. power ; impactful ; peer mentorship 0 1124 Staff Relationship/ Developing leadership skills Bradley explains how supervisors and staff at the CCC had a close connection due to cultural similarities and beliefs. She explains how when there was a change in management at the CCC, Bradley became the one that guided the new supervisor. This helped her to gain leadership skills and relationship skills as well. leadership ; leader ; relationships ; mentor ; Floyd Lai 0 1640 Creating a Welcoming Space Bradley explains how her favorite memory was being able to create an ambiance that made students feel represented and safe. welcoming ; ambiance ; atmosphere ; guidance 0 1760 Reviving Black Student Union Bradley discusses how she revived the Black Student Union after its inactivity. She explains how her experience with the CCC provided her with resources and knowledge to begin an organization. She fixed the bylaws, encouraged protests, and recruited members for the board. protests ; BSU ; organization ; Black Student Union 0 2364 The role of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center aids various organizations on campus by equipping, empowering, and helping with self expression and representation. empower ; equip ; educate ; represent 0 2674 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center/ Finding the Courage Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center opened her eyes up and helped her mature politically and socially. It gave her the passion to speak up and educate others about social issues that are often suppressed. politics ; serve 0 3045 Current Direction of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the growth of our campus should also be focused and centered on the students needs. either being socially, politically or financially focused. She talks about how professors should remain personable and bring current situations into the curriculum. activism ; identity ; allyship ; protesting 0 3387 Underrepresented Communities on Campus Bradley discusses how the undocumented experience becomes adjacent to the Chicano student movement. She recalls the Et Cetera club, a student organization that created space for those who may not identify with other organizations at that time. undocumented ; under represented ; duality ; Et Cetera club 0 3616 Lessons Learned From Cross-Cultural Center Bradley was taught that not only she had power and leadership potential but how to use it as well. She exercised her power by speaking up against a paper writing false claims towards minority groups. She also discusses how she learned to recharge as an affective leader. power ; protest ; minority ; self preserve 0 3965 How to Practice Your Voice Bradley explains how one should educate themselves, and get involved in social groups that represent them as a minority. To stand up for what one believes in and to not let a box or label define you. 0 Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumni. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related centers on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the campus (unauthorized) student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant&#13 ; with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her&#13 ; involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University&#13 ; San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel,&#13 ; I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the&#13 ; community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like.&#13 ; &#13 ; Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so&#13 ; I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different&#13 ; high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like&#13 ; predominantly a white&#13 ; &#13 ; county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one&#13 ; of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was&#13 ; like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others,&#13 ; (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time&#13 ; with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I&#13 ; went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my&#13 ; grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in&#13 ; &#13 ; Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like&#13 ; people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot&#13 ; of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of&#13 ; most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San&#13 ; Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he&#13 ; didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice.&#13 ; And so, I applied to other&#13 ; &#13 ; colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal&#13 ; State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living&#13 ; in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on&#13 ; like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the&#13 ; dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students' motivation is free&#13 ; things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends&#13 ; &#13 ; and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I&#13 ; went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had&#13 ; so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had&#13 ; books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being&#13 ; multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice&#13 ; to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from&#13 ; all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I&#13 ; &#13 ; served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what,&#13 ; almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I&#13 ; remember either like going to the Cross-Cultural Center director (laughs). I, I&#13 ; was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I ended up&#13 ; (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman&#13 ; year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work&#13 ; experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had&#13 ; suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created&#13 ; some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so&#13 ; after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that&#13 ; same year,&#13 ; &#13 ; might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to&#13 ; be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of&#13 ; involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for&#13 ; you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that&#13 ; incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you&#13 ; worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were&#13 ; involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me&#13 ; through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like,&#13 ; what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first&#13 ; Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what&#13 ; happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering&#13 ; the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the&#13 ; files of my brain.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh).&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my&#13 ; boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly&#13 ; consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white&#13 ; area, and like knowing that I was not white,&#13 ; &#13 ; was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you&#13 ; kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are&#13 ; probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to&#13 ; say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when&#13 ; I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were&#13 ; talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and&#13 ; marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in&#13 ; like different intersects.&#13 ; &#13 ; And--they&#13 ; &#13 ; also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still&#13 ; talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that,&#13 ; that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the&#13 ; marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social&#13 ; Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my&#13 ; activism, if you will. It gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It&#13 ; gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey&#13 ; or like continue their journey&#13 ; &#13 ; or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me&#13 ; to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I,&#13 ; because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them&#13 ; happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from&#13 ; that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four&#13 ; of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the&#13 ; committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator,&#13 ; &#13 ; so.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so&#13 ; she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's&#13 ; awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that&#13 ; you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone&#13 ; who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't&#13 ; necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in&#13 ; your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved&#13 ; where you didn't necessarily play by the rules.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person.&#13 ; &#13 ; So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay,&#13 ; what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz,&#13 ; and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and&#13 ; experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs).&#13 ; I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make&#13 ; sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other&#13 ; centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride&#13 ; Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about,&#13 ; but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put&#13 ; them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening&#13 ; to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like&#13 ; twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and&#13 ; talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's&#13 ; &#13 ; more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game&#13 ; or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and,&#13 ; it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who&#13 ; reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in&#13 ; classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college&#13 ; students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the&#13 ; box. I&#13 ; &#13 ; know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my,&#13 ; my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would&#13 ; probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would&#13 ; say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think&#13 ; of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I&#13 ; think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second&#13 ; or third social justice event that I was on the committee with.&#13 ; &#13 ; And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word&#13 ; vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest&#13 ; words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The&#13 ; ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't&#13 ; know if you remember that.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Um-hm&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something&#13 ; like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I&#13 ; found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word,&#13 ; the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to,&#13 ; like we have the power,&#13 ; &#13 ; we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it&#13 ; was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I&#13 ; had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by&#13 ; like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of&#13 ; see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something&#13 ; that they probably wouldn't normally going to.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a&#13 ; tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my&#13 ; research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the&#13 ; lifeblood of the organization. The people who&#13 ; &#13 ; affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was&#13 ; just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other&#13 ; student staff as well as your superiors?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s&#13 ; been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did&#13 ; he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was&#13 ; Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like,&#13 ; essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is&#13 ; Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at&#13 ; &#13 ; that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly&#13 ; didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was&#13 ; like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even&#13 ; remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would&#13 ; use then.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer&#13 ; relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't&#13 ; working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he&#13 ; would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, but&#13 ; it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody&#13 ; knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got&#13 ; (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the&#13 ; (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up&#13 ; without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of&#13 ; like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman&#13 ; year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And&#13 ; as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful&#13 ; past it was&#13 ; &#13 ; comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like&#13 ; she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've&#13 ; never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it&#13 ; was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I&#13 ; mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially&#13 ; were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like&#13 ; he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this&#13 ; day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center), because I was so connected with&#13 ; &#13 ; Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that&#13 ; things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything&#13 ; and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I&#13 ; definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power&#13 ; shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time&#13 ; I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group&#13 ; on campus.&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling&#13 ; me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you&#13 ; have to&#13 ; &#13 ; lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that&#13 ; Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of&#13 ; came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you&#13 ; have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I&#13 ; kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me.&#13 ; I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I&#13 ; think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result.&#13 ; &#13 ; And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other&#13 ; &#13 ; like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while,&#13 ; but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there&#13 ; (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to&#13 ; an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno,&#13 ; I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with.&#13 ; And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with&#13 ; Diana (Salidvar).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like&#13 ; connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a&#13 ; &#13 ; very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like,&#13 ; you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still&#13 ; learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like,&#13 ; I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help&#13 ; me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be&#13 ; resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among&#13 ; other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's,&#13 ; therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person.&#13 ; And, yeah, it&#13 ; &#13 ; definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort&#13 ; of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached&#13 ; a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and&#13 ; just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now&#13 ; that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want&#13 ; to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad&#13 ; taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room.&#13 ; And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends&#13 ; and I call it am-Beyonce&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And&#13 ; so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I&#13 ; enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I&#13 ; would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just&#13 ; creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a&#13 ; way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about&#13 ; something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping&#13 ; individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this&#13 ; place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of&#13 ; working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just&#13 ; &#13 ; creating that space for students.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's&#13 ; definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of&#13 ; provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I&#13 ; know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as&#13 ; well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that&#13 ; organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just&#13 ; starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got&#13 ; involved in that project as well.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was&#13 ; pretty active&#13 ; &#13 ; then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of&#13 ; them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my&#13 ; second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then&#13 ; Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I&#13 ; think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next&#13 ; head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top&#13 ; &#13 ; that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he&#13 ; did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that&#13 ; organizations need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment&#13 ; efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja&#13 ; graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating&#13 ; before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen&#13 ; that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the&#13 ; underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not&#13 ; mistaken, a&#13 ; &#13 ; couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became&#13 ; inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that&#13 ; time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things&#13 ; with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was&#13 ; doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end&#13 ; of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?”&#13 ; I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I&#13 ; think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to&#13 ; &#13 ; get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with&#13 ; a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I&#13 ; see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to&#13 ; talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if&#13 ; I need to.&#13 ; &#13 ; I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student&#13 ; worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a&#13 ; university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that&#13 ; role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they&#13 ; knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough&#13 ; &#13 ; members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a&#13 ; secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the&#13 ; summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do&#13 ; and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I&#13 ; believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this&#13 ; organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes&#13 ; started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna&#13 ; do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember&#13 ; when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new&#13 ; students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my&#13 ; recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president&#13 ; and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like&#13 ; overseeing student organizations. (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?”&#13 ; And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at&#13 ; the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we&#13 ; &#13 ; have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're&#13 ; just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm&#13 ; honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs)&#13 ; while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well&#13 ; within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions&#13 ; at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group&#13 ; is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these&#13 ; students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these&#13 ; students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about,&#13 ; you know, centering Black narrative and who want&#13 ; &#13 ; to move that forward.&#13 ; &#13 ; So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get&#13 ; F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and&#13 ; bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and&#13 ; I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students&#13 ; because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I&#13 ; had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all&#13 ; those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like,&#13 ; “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would&#13 ; benefit from it.” And&#13 ; &#13 ; I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am&#13 ; leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was&#13 ; like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my&#13 ; mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was&#13 ; like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he,&#13 ; he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make&#13 ; sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more&#13 ; past this.” So yeah, that was,&#13 ; &#13 ; that was a lot (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of&#13 ; the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the&#13 ; health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in&#13 ; situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and&#13 ; just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center&#13 ; playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity&#13 ; expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I&#13 ; &#13 ; don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a&#13 ; council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board&#13 ; leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or&#13 ; concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you&#13 ; will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student&#13 ; organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters&#13 ; &#13 ; that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because&#13 ; I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there&#13 ; wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career&#13 ; Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black&#13 ; student on it.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically&#13 ; implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't&#13 ; gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like,&#13 ; &#13 ; “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not&#13 ; gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the&#13 ; careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people&#13 ; of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like,&#13 ; “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to&#13 ; be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not&#13 ; only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The&#13 ; Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames,&#13 ; like you could make the&#13 ; &#13 ; materials that you need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for&#13 ; marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that&#13 ; you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for&#13 ; like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt&#13 ; (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show&#13 ; up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because&#13 ; I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what&#13 ; website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know&#13 ; where to go to get scholarships for our&#13 ; &#13 ; group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship&#13 ; with, you know, centers who work with student organizations.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely&#13 ; a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message&#13 ; heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that&#13 ; we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask&#13 ; you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student&#13 ; Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort&#13 ; &#13 ; of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those&#13 ; experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and&#13 ; my politics. I think it opened my eyes to a lot of different things,&#13 ; organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to&#13 ; serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on&#13 ; a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also&#13 ; worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in&#13 ; &#13 ; Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development.&#13 ; And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I&#13 ; would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what&#13 ; sort of shaped me there.&#13 ; &#13 ; But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was&#13 ; during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going&#13 ; to protests before&#13 ; &#13 ; then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I&#13 ; even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest&#13 ; is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's&#13 ; like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it,&#13 ; (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I&#13 ; want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the&#13 ; system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also&#13 ; I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know?&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that&#13 ; too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest&#13 ; is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a&#13 ; different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla&#13 ; and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National&#13 ; City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the&#13 ; news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that&#13 ; moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and&#13 ; watching someone's&#13 ; &#13 ; lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l&#13 ; being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need.&#13 ; &#13 ; We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we&#13 ; thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills&#13 ; thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you&#13 ; just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like,&#13 ; “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore.&#13 ; It's not okay. And so I would rather&#13 ; &#13 ; be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super&#13 ; profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being&#13 ; able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing&#13 ; results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very,&#13 ; very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center should grow in?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't&#13 ; know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last&#13 ; time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while&#13 ; since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it&#13 ; was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have&#13 ; this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone&#13 ; knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that&#13 ; we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I&#13 ; remember seeing the blueprints of this&#13 ; &#13 ; Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was,&#13 ; you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of&#13 ; how things have evolved.&#13 ; &#13 ; I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for&#13 ; passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual&#13 ; passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or&#13 ; something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting&#13 ; about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let&#13 ; me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because&#13 ; this doesn't make&#13 ; &#13 ; sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the&#13 ; student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot&#13 ; of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space,&#13 ; because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to&#13 ; go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA&#13 ; (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students&#13 ; come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about&#13 ; to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think&#13 ; that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now.&#13 ; I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there,&#13 ; &#13 ; but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's&#13 ; what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know,&#13 ; peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was&#13 ; there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about&#13 ; identity and allyship.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations&#13 ; where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm.&#13 ; And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some&#13 ; of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I&#13 ; don't know,&#13 ; &#13 ; whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so&#13 ; how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address&#13 ; it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is&#13 ; not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I&#13 ; see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not&#13 ; be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or&#13 ; like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the&#13 ; hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those&#13 ; spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray&#13 ; space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity&#13 ; development, because like I said,&#13 ; &#13 ; college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you&#13 ; have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of&#13 ; reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of&#13 ; like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time,&#13 ; like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do&#13 ; you feel are underrepresented on campus?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Hmm...&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I&#13 ; definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience&#13 ; was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a&#13 ; friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social&#13 ; Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented&#13 ; students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know&#13 ; is undocumented and I didn't have&#13 ; &#13 ; like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my&#13 ; license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.”&#13 ; If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have&#13 ; endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community.&#13 ; &#13 ; I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I&#13 ; was a student. I think MEChA--&#13 ; &#13 ; DeMaria: Um-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the&#13 ; undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends&#13 ; that I&#13 ; &#13 ; was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't&#13 ; remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I&#13 ; remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group&#13 ; as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created&#13 ; an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for&#13 ; the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity.&#13 ; Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to&#13 ; be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that&#13 ; was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either&#13 ; like myself live in like a duality, or others who just&#13 ; &#13 ; maybe don't identify in a particular space.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first&#13 ; one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with&#13 ; the Cross-Cultural Center?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick&#13 ; one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had&#13 ; power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way&#13 ; &#13 ; that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper&#13 ; doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs)&#13 ; to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also&#13 ; existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it&#13 ; was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but&#13 ; like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're&#13 ; like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I&#13 ; was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember noticing that this was not&#13 ; &#13 ; okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was&#13 ; like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna&#13 ; hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people&#13 ; understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on&#13 ; campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my&#13 ; gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other&#13 ; campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?”&#13 ; Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in&#13 ; solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these&#13 ; salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps,&#13 ; like the steps that are next to the clock.&#13 ; &#13 ; They wrote the names of all the members in the organization.&#13 ; &#13 ; This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but&#13 ; (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually&#13 ; bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted&#13 ; to run for ASI president.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria:&#13 ; &#13 ; Right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically&#13 ; passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he&#13 ; ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so&#13 ; that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna&#13 ; &#13 ; have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a&#13 ; federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping&#13 ; into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a&#13 ; battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how&#13 ; to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of&#13 ; things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot&#13 ; like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I&#13 ; had stopped making such a fuss about that paper,&#13 ; &#13 ; and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were&#13 ; interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I&#13 ; was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of&#13 ; preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what&#13 ; they found to be important for them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And&#13 ; also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial&#13 ; agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said.&#13 ; So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for&#13 ; a good end.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Which&#13 ; &#13 ; is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something&#13 ; you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an&#13 ; other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to&#13 ; know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if&#13 ; someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start&#13 ; agitating or get involved in social justice?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe&#13 ; it like a butterfly, because I am like--ambiguous&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups&#13 ; and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily&#13 ; have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every&#13 ; box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like,&#13 ; “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So&#13 ; in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into&#13 ; that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really&#13 ; nice, to experience. But also I think--&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice&#13 ; &#13 ; Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely&#13 ; informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social&#13 ; justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they&#13 ; had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like&#13 ; school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of&#13 ; grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals as well as&#13 ; shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is&#13 ; when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's&#13 ; &#13 ; terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like&#13 ; genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even&#13 ; just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot&#13 ; of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop&#13 ; that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful,&#13 ; but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know,&#13 ; minority groups, who were young. I think for me,&#13 ; &#13 ; growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I&#13 ; wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my&#13 ; strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so&#13 ; for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in&#13 ; supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want&#13 ; to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand&#13 ; up for what I believe in.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of&#13 ; taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or&#13 ; &#13 ; that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous&#13 ; to social justice. So I completely get that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank&#13 ; you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a&#13 ; lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about&#13 ; the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of&#13 ; embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening&#13 ; up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what&#13 ; you went through and what you did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:&#13 ; &#13 ; Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to&#13 ; interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some&#13 ; of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: You’re welcome,&#13 ; &#13 ; okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity-related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-35 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos Minorities in higher education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bradley, Chanel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource De Maria, Michael Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Chanel Bradley Activists and activism Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Julia Friedman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tanis Brown OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Unknown Date Oral history of Tanis Brown, April 13, 2022 SC027-20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Tanis Brown Julia Friedman BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|16(5)|27(8)|42(8)|51(1)|62(5)|70(10)|81(6)|88(14)|99(9)|108(14)|120(12)|134(9)|142(8)|153(6)|160(6)|174(3)|181(10)|188(9)|197(10)|205(9)|213(13)|224(4)|236(5)|242(6)|252(3)|261(5)|270(14)|279(5)|289(12)|300(5)|306(16)|315(2)|324(1)|329(14)|336(10)|344(4)|354(10)|366(15)|374(2)|381(3)|392(1)|404(14)|419(1)|427(2)|437(4)|445(2)|452(10)|464(2)|469(5)|476(9)|486(11)|494(8)|503(7)|512(3)|520(16)|535(1)|542(3)|548(6)|554(3)|563(15)|569(6)|573(12)|589(7)|597(2)|605(7)|614(1)|620(7)|626(5)|633(13)|643(10)|651(14)|659(15)|666(10)|674(3)|686(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3b6624b33deba86cb7ceb886c3d6cec2.mp4 Other video 0 Moving to San Marcos, CA / Involvement in the San Marcos Community Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Tanis Brown describes why her family moved to San Marcos, CA and how she first became involved in the community. Advisory commission ; Education ; Parks and Recreation ; San Marcos (Calif.) 377 Experience as Member of First Graduating Class at CSUSM Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Tanis Brown recounts her experience as a student in the first graduating class at California State San Marcos when she enrolled in 1989. Tanis discusses the culture on campus, the class sizes, and the formation of the first Associated Students. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 942 Working at CSUSM Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Tanis Brown discusses working as an employee at CSUSM. She describes her work as the Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President’s office where she aided students and faculty in finding housing near the campus area. She later worked in Human Resources as the Training Coordinator. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; Housing projects ; Human resources ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 1479 Involvement in the San Marcos Historical Society (SMHS) / SMHS Archives Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Tanis Brown explains how she first became involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. As President of the organization, Tanis describes her goals moving forward for the SMHS, as well as significant items located in the SMHS archives. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Volunteers 2676 The Importance of Funding and Education Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Tanis Brown discusses the SMHS’s support of education, especially in collaborating with local schools and creating museum tours for school groups. Tanis also explains why the lack of funding in both the educational and nonprofit spheres is detrimental to the understanding of history. Education ; Funding ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3321 San Marcos History Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Tanis Brown discusses prominent historical figures and families from San Marcos history, including the Barhams, Fultons, and Bordens. Tanis also explains the importance of studying and understanding local history. 19th century ; 20th century ; Education ; History ; Local history ; Local politics ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 4470 Closing of Interview Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Tanis Brown closes interview by welcoming viewers to share their history with the SMHS. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to--all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking--he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It&#039 ; s kind of the boonies, isn&#039 ; t it?&quot ; And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I&#039 ; m certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that&#039 ; s kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, &quot ; Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who&#039 ; s elected to anything.&quot ; And here we are, serving, the city council members&#039 ; children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, &quot ; Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.&quot ; So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, &quot ; Oh, this is great, this feels like home.&quot ; So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that&#039 ; s wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome&#039 ; s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome&#039 ; s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn&#039 ; t have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn&#039 ; t much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women&#039 ; s studies. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that&#039 ; s actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who&#039 ; s the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn&#039 ; t an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President&#039 ; s office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn&#039 ; t have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It&#039 ; s important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the &quot ; cheerleader&quot ; because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don&#039 ; t get too used to the office that you&#039 ; re sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn&#039 ; t have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it&#039 ; s carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you&#039 ; d always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I&#039 ; ve been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she&#039 ; d be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there&#039 ; s a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, &quot ; Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don&#039 ; t have very many historical houses in San Marcos.&quot ; What&#039 ; s, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, &quot ; Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.&quot ; So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don&#039 ; t know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I&#039 ; m still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that&#039 ; s the time I kind of stepped up and said, &quot ; Sure, I can help.&quot ; And, so that was in 2009 and I&#039 ; m still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we&#039 ; ve had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we&#039 ; ve also had a few internships and I&#039 ; ve been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they&#039 ; re quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I&#039 ; m trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone&#039 ; s collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the &quot ; what ifs&quot ; and &quot ; what would happen if&quot ; and &quot ; how might we continue to preserve these things.&quot ; Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. That&#039 ; s very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden&#039 ; s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden&#039 ; s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it&#039 ; s still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.&quot ; So, it&#039 ; s a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt&#039 ; s New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That&#039 ; s a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I&#039 ; m thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can&#039 ; t wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn&#039 ; t have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you&#039 ; re looking at a building across the lake, but you&#039 ; re seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it&#039 ; s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who&#039 ; s maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I&#039 ; d like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they&#039 ; re looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don&#039 ; t get used to thinking that this is the way it&#039 ; s always been, and this is the way it&#039 ; ll always be that there was something before that--what you&#039 ; re seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever&#039 ; s being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there&#039 ; s a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I&#039 ; m sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I--(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I&#039 ; m excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of--and hopefully that is not the--or it&#039 ; s changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I&#039 ; ve noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s because people aren&#039 ; t equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don&#039 ; t know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it&#039 ; s just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that&#039 ; s a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don&#039 ; t have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We&#039 ; d have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? &quot ; Did they have markers? No.&quot ; (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it&#039 ; s really about, &quot ; What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?&quot ; And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who&#039 ; s very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it&#039 ; s kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children&#039 ; s education. I didn&#039 ; t realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we&#039 ; ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today&#039 ; s world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I&#039 ; m not just talking about K-12, I&#039 ; m talking about higher education and as well. I&#039 ; m a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I&#039 ; m not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don&#039 ; t end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it&#039 ; s something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there&#039 ; s been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we&#039 ; ve been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what&#039 ; s on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I&#039 ; m thinking, &quot ; Why aren&#039 ; t we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?&quot ; And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there&#039 ; s not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don&#039 ; t have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don&#039 ; t cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That&#039 ; s well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I&#039 ; m an advocate. I don&#039 ; t like to, you know, diss people for what they&#039 ; re not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn&#039 ; t going to happen if people go and they&#039 ; re not enjoying it, or they&#039 ; re not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that&#039 ; s, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they&#039 ; re doing. And you never know when you&#039 ; re going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I&#039 ; m always looking for partnerships. I&#039 ; m always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We&#039 ; re so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that&#039 ; s my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That&#039 ; s always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos&#039 ; history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don&#039 ; t have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don&#039 ; t have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I&#039 ; m trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don&#039 ; t live here anymore. And so, we don&#039 ; t have the longevity of their history. But I&#039 ; m always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I&#039 ; m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student&#039 ; s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco&#039 ; s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos&#039 ; first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It&#039 ; s now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, &quot ; Oh my gosh.&quot ; It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don&#039 ; t see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn&#039 ; t mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They&#039 ; re looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it&#039 ; s our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I&#039 ; m not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history&#039 ; s human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it&#039 ; s written and somebody&#039 ; ll say, &quot ; Well, that isn&#039 ; t the way I remember it.&quot ; So, there&#039 ; s so much humanity in history and it&#039 ; s how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn&#039 ; t just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we&#039 ; re willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we&#039 ; re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh my gosh,&quot ; because we didn&#039 ; t, well, we weren&#039 ; t necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, &quot ; Oh my gosh,&quot ; it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don&#039 ; t know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We&#039 ; re still people. And that&#039 ; s what I think history is really about people&#039 ; s stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you&#039 ; d like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I&#039 ; m really happy to--I wasn&#039 ; t expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people&#039 ; s names, but I&#039 ; m happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We&#039 ; re so happy that you are a part of this project and we&#039 ; re so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Tanis. Interview April 13, 2022 Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-20 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tanis Brown Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerardo Cabral OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. LGBTQA;Gay;Cross-Cultural Center;CSUSM OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Cabral, Gerardo. Interview April 28th, 2023. SC027-36 00:42:54 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State Universtity San Mrcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; LGBTQ+ life ; Education, Higher ; Human rights ; Student success LGBTQA ; Gay ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM Gerardo Cabral Seth Stanley Audio CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28 1:|15(11)|32(3)|47(5)|61(5)|84(4)|96(5)|112(9)|125(17)|142(9)|160(3)|174(5)|192(3)|205(14)|222(6)|240(3)|257(6)|270(9)|282(7)|298(7)|311(5)|323(4)|347(13)|364(5)|375(9)|391(5)|402(8)|413(2)|425(2)|459(11)|471(10)|485(4)|499(2)|512(9)|523(3)|537(4)|552(4)|567(11)|574(3)|595(10)|607(6)|616(6)|627(4)|641(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/36df964a2128464e17075f579d463428.m4a Other audio english 1 Interview Introduction 0 23 Educational background Cabral was born in San Diego and started off at Palomar college before continuing on at CSUSM. San Diego ; California State San Marcos ; Palomar 0 88 Getting involved in Cross-Cultural Center (CCC)/ Career experience Cabral explains how because of his courses and understanding of ethnic studies he wanted to apply to the Multicultural Center (now the CCC). Cabral received a position as peer educator and learned community building techniques which he later applied to his job at SDSU (San Diego State University) as a resident director. He then moved to Sacramento State and got a job in student outreach and engagement. Shortly after, Cabral moved back to San Diego and began a job more centered around first generation and LatinX backgrounds. California State San Marcos ; Peer educator ; Palomar Community College ; Ethnic Studies ; Equity ; Diversity ; latinx 0 586 Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 Cabral explains his role as a Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 and how he is a brand ambassador for the local community. He ensures that through the news the community can feel represented, and that the news can be trusted as a voice for the locals. ABC-10 ; Community ; relationships 0 799 Fostering Relations Cabral explains how he created a segment for the ABC-10 news that has a multicultural lens and provides representation to the local community, building relationships amongst the news team and the community, allowing news to be catered and personalized to the community members. Alex Bell ; Community ; Multicultural ; representation 0 1100 Advice for One Working in Community Relations Cabral explains how one must be their authentic self when building community. That their morals and values must line up with their job. To elevate ones story they must serve with their community in mind. authentic ; morals ; values ; serving 0 1296 Starting at the Cross-Cultural Center/ Sara Sheikh Cabral explains how small and underdeveloped the Cross-Cultural Center was when he started. Despite the size, the staff helped the school practice diversity and inclusivity. Sara Sheikh was Cabral's mentor and set the tone for the center. She helped to educate, train and encourage students on being their authentic selves in group settings. Sara Sheikh ; Social Justice Retreat ; mentor ; educating ; teaching ; learning 0 1725 Living Authentically The Cross-Cultural Center provided Cabral a space to be his true self and gave him resources to come out as a gay man to his family. It allowed him to live authentically and provided him with confidence that he could use to empower the community. authentic ; gay ; empower ; community ; authentic 0 2045 CCC Help Cabral Professionally/Favorite memory Cabral explains how the CCC helped him to be more confident in any space. He explains how his favorite memory was the Social Justice Summit. This is where he was able to be vulnerable and learn about others who attended. He explains how those who went to the summit became enlightened about themselves. Social Justice Summit ; Diversity, Equity, and Inclusivity ; Confident ; authentic 0 2304 Role of CCC to Coexist with Identity Spaces Cabral explains how the CCC can coexist with and work with other centers to provide resources for all. Cross-Cultural Center ; LGBT Center ; Gender Equity Center ; Pride Center ; ethnic ; identity 0 Gerardo Cabral is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his Bachelors of Business degree in 2011. Gerardo worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2011. In this interview, Cabral discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center was a space that cultivated and enriched self-identity. It provided not only students with a voice but Cabral to begin living his true authentic life. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley. Today I am interviewing Gerardo Cabral for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 28th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Gerardo. Thank you for coming. Gerardo Cabral: Hey, Seth! Stanley: To start off, could you give me a, a bit of background and how you ended up at CSUSM? Cabral: Yeah, so I'm originally from San Diego, and born and raised there. And so Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State were sort of my options. I, I didn't ever think of leaving. So how I ended up at Sac(ramento State)--or not Sac State--Cal State San Marcos is I transferred there after I did about five years at Palomar College. I was working full-time. And so with that , I worked with my EOP (Educational Opportunity Program) counselor and we, we submitted some applications locally. And so got into to Cal State San Marcos and I thought it was a great fit. Felt it, it, it felt good to attend and sort of in the current stage of my life at that moment. And so, accepted it and my journey started 2008. Stanley: Very cool. Could you tell us about your journey from, from be being a student at CSUSM to becoming a community relations manager at ABC 10 (News San Diego)? Cabral: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a big question. (Stanley laughs). It's a long-- (both talking at once) Stanley: Go for it, man. Cabral: But essentially so, in 2008, so I graduated high school in 2003, and--and so I went to high school that didn't have a lot of support for sort of students of underprivileged and underserved backgrounds. So I really didn't have the choice of going to a four-year (college). I did have some of my friends go and they talked about their experience. As I was in college, I was experiencing sort of the, the life outside of their lens, outside of that lens. And so when I was going to Cal--, when I was going to Palomar, the community college I did, I did tell it to myself that I was gonna transfer into a four-year and I was going to make everything possible to get that quote unquote college experience without living on campus. So I did that. So when I got to Cal State San Marcos one of the first things was like, I wanted to get involved. I wanted to work on campus. Mind you, I was working full-time at, as a financial advisor at a credit union. But I felt it was so important for me to get that experience because if I didn't, I would probably regret it for the rest of my life. So I wanted to make sure that I made friends, that I worked on campus, that I really engaged with sort of the culture of the campus community. And so I went--I went online and I started looking at jobs, and I saw this peer educator position at the Cross-Cultural Center. I've always had, I took a lot of Chicano Studies classes, Ethnic Studies classes. So I really had this fond appreciation for multicultural education, and understanding, and you know, the, the, the work of what that all encompasses. And so, so I applied for that. To be honest, my interview probably didn't go as well because I was in, I was in the mindset of a financial advisor position. I had already been there for seven years, and so I thought like, oh, I'm gonna get this interview in the bag. But then once I started having them ask me questions about like, what's my, what's my definition of equity and diversity? I knew what it was, but I wasn't able to articulate it in a way where it's like, you know in sort of that academia space. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: I wasn't offered that position right away. But I did have a director at the time of Student Life in Leadership, her name is, Dilcie. Dr. Dilcie Perez. She came up to me and talked to me and was like, “Hey, like, you know you did, you did a good job, but you know there are some things that you could improve on in your interview.” And this, this, and that. And, you know as a, as a seasoned career staff already in the financial industry, it took me off guard that this individual actually provided me feedback. At the moment I was just-- that's interesting. But I really appreciated it after, because, you know, I was getting into a different career essentially, you know-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because I had quit my full-time job. And then I went into this, in this multicultural education space. Nonetheless, I got the job. I was offered the job shortly after. I sort of was able to sort of articulate a little bit more my passions and my interest for the position. And yeah. So I did that. I was very involved in sort of the, that peer educator, the multicultural teaching work. And I think it was not--it was beneficial for me personally because I was learning firsthand some of these theories and things that were, that were being put into place. And I was sort of like starting to connect dots. ‘Cause I've always, I always knew what this was. I always practiced, you know, inclusivity, but I never was able to put terms to it until when I went into this role as a peer educator. So I would say that my foundation for community-building and community-connecting became stronger and solidified when I was in this role. So once I graduated, I went into become, I became a resident director at San Diego State (University). And I got-- simultaneously, I was working as my master's, my master's program. And so what I did was I was doing a lot of community-connecting. I was overseeing a staff of twenty-two individuals, and I was really building and fostering this inclusive living, working and live and work space at San Diego State. ‘Cause I was overseeing the dorms there. And then I had a staff. So really it, I was putting all my teachings into practice. And so that was, that happened for about five years. Then I transitioned out. and I took a job at Sac(ramento) State (University) as the Associate Director for Student Engagement and Outreach, which sort of aligned really closely with the work that I was already doing, sort of that community connecting, engaging with students, really making them feel belonged and providing events and services that made them feel welcome to campus. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: So I did that for about a year. And then that was the first time I ever moved out of San Diego State. So I went--actually , I moved back to San Diego, (connection issue) shortly after, not because-- well one, I really didn't like the job and, and sort of its politics, but I was missing home a lot. So I came back and I worked for Barrio Logan College Institute, which was a nonprofit in Barrio Logan. And I was their--I was doing their college and career program there. So, I already had this understanding of like, how the pathways to get into college and, and really was sharing with them sort of their experiences and how to make the most of their experiences at the university level. Being sort of first generation and Latinx backgrounds. And basically teaching them sort of based off of my lived experiences. And then (both laugh) then in 2020, right before I took a job at Sac State, ’cause my husband was actually in Sacramento when I moved out there the first time, he stayed. And so I went back there , and then I took a job in Alumni Relations where I was really fostering relationships with a lot of community members, really doing a lot of philanthropy work, development work and a lot of development work is all relationship building. And I think within this role, you know, as a peer educator, I was building a lot of trust. I was building a lot of relationships with individuals who perhaps didn't understand the concepts or understandings of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but was able to really foster those relationships and really meet them at where they were at. So, we could teach them sort of the importance of that-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --or at least have them hear us out in those spaces. So that was, so that was that. And then, then in 2021, I was--I mean we were all in a pandemic and so we were all sort of at a standstill, but I was sort of, I was sort of recruited into this role that I currently have now . I wasn't job searching, but you know, I had taken a leadership program during COVID(-19) or during quarantine, and my name was sort of thrown out. Somebody invited me out for coffee, offered me this great opportunity that I couldn't pass up because it felt really great, and here I am! (Stanley laughs) And so I've been there almost two years now, come September. It's crazy to even think that I've been in this role for two years and I'm working in broadcasting. But it is something that I never would've thought. But I have never regretted it once and I enjoy it. I've, I've enjoyed it ever since. Stanley: Wow. Well, what a story. (Both laugh) Cabral: Yes. Right. Stanley: Yeah. Could you, could you tell me about your current role, as Community Relations Manager? Cabral: Yeah. So, like you said I'm the current Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 which is--our call letters are KXTV for the broadcast folks out there. But yeah, so we're, ABC-10 is a local, is a Sacramento local news station that broadcasts news for three of the counties here in Northern California: Sacramento County, Modesto (County), and Stockton (County). And my primary role is really--is to be the brand ambassador for my station and for my organization. It's really about going out and infusing myself into the community and really letting people know who we are, what we do, and what we stand for, our brand. I'm sort--I'm housed out of marketing and so a lot of my role is intentional marketing, with a focus of, you know, relationship building. And so I do a lot of the work. I mean, I wish I could say what I do in one sentence, (Stanley laughs) but I feel like I can't-- Stanley: Well. Cabral: --but, Oh, go ahead . Stanley: (unintelligible) Say several sentences (laughs). Cabral: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, essentially, like I said, I'm the brand ambassador. And so what that encompasses is really just, you know, our brand is: we stand--ABC-10, we stand for you. It's really you know, historically, news outlets have always been sort of seen as negative outlets for storytelling. You know with, because we're typically always covering shootings, deaths, killings and things like that. And so we've made it our mission before I even got here--five years ago when we rebranded and we reevaluated our mission and values for the station. We wanted to, we--our organization had committed to making sure that we were the community leader and sharing stories not only in the sense of letting people (be) aware of the things that are happening maybe that are challenging in our communities, but also those things that are elevating and impacting, celebrating the things in our community. So we, so my role is to build those community relationships, that community trust and share with them that, hey, we're looking for community storytelling partners to not only--because again, we're none of us, not a lot of us in the newsroom are from Sacramento. So it's like having somebody tell a story from where you're from and you're like, oh, they don't even know, they don't even know San Diego like that. Right? If for me, I--when I see the news and I'm like, “Why would they call, why would they call it that?” I'm like, that's not Chula Vista. That's, San Ysidro or, this is Escondido not Nor-- whatever, you know, we start to nitpick. And so really, it's about again, that's what we're--we look for storytelling partners to help us tell the stories that are being impacted in the community. The great work that we are doing, the community leaders, how can we highlight them? Because again, we want to change this notion of news to be all negative, and we want it to be both informative but also celebratory as well . Because again we are part of the community. We are, sometimes individuals look at us as the face of the community-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because they're watching us on the screen. And so what can we do to build that trust and to showcase the greatness that it, that is Sacramento. Stanley: Um-Hm. Would you have any examples of you doing development work or fostering relations? Cabral: Oh my gosh. Yeah (Stanley laughs). So when I was, one that I'm really proud of is that we--so when I first got on in September of last year, shortly after we had, we got--in the news, in the newsroom we get different airtime. And so we have, we had a 6:30 slot. And so we recruited and hired this young woman from Fresno, who's originally from Ohio, lived in L.A., went to Fresno, and then we hired her--her name's Alex Bell--to have her own show. Almost like David, World News, David Muir. And so we wanted to emulate that. And so we hired her, and I was part of her team. And part of her team was to really, we're launching the show from the ground up. We are building content, we are building visuals. So in that process, I was really able to talk about sort of ensuring that, you know, we're looking at this show and the image in a multicultural lens and in an inclusive lens, right? Because if-- Stanley: Yeah Cabral: This is, this gives us a great opportunity to start something that we've never done before. And so, and part of my role too was to be part is, was to be part of that community engagement team with her. So, because I was there and she started in October, I just hit the ground running. So we started in, we started infusing her in the community, really just having her meet some of the community leaders, letting people know, “Hey, we have this show coming, it's launching in August. It's all community driven. It's about story, it's like storytelling and talking about--it's going beyond the headlines of what we're talking about.” And we're doing long segmenting stories about communities, neighborhoods, groups of individuals, advocacy or advocates in our community. And we were able to launch this. And I think what the the thing that I was able to really gauge as a success was once we built these relationships in Aug-- in July, right before the launch of our show in August I was tasked to do sort of like a--not, I wasn't tasked, but I was like, “Hey, you know, we've met with all these individuals. Why don't we start doing a tour of Alex Bell meet and greets. Let's have her, let's have the community members meet the team, meet her, really have them share some of their story ideas.” Because that's what we look for, right? Stanley: Um-hmm. Cabral: Because, like story, we're always getting--we're getting emails constantly about story ideas, of what we could do, what we can cover, good, bad and the ugly. And so we did this. And so I worked with a lot of my community partners that I had fostered and built relationships with. And we were able to do six meet and greets throughout the, without--within the region of Sacramento. So, in Sac(ramento) and Stockton. We had seven meet and greets that were, that when we worked collaboratively, collaboratively with different nonprofit organizations and organizations to really have them. And probably at each event we had about a hundred people attend each of these events. And these are cons--these are constituents, these are our viewers, these are people in the community. People were excited to see this new face. And so, I was able to really create a a marketing campaign to really promote this event, these meet and greets. It's, they called (it), “Alex Bell Meet and Greets.” Because the show is “To the Point With Alex Bell.” So we were able to really home in on our community and lean on them to sort of share this information of the meet and greets. And it was great. (Connection issue ; unintelligible). Stanley: Um-Hm. Oh, oh, oh, no. Pause recording now. There we go. Mute. Please continue. Sorry about that. Cabral: (Connection issue ; unintelligible) We were able to gauge the success was-- (unintelligible) Stanley: Oh, man. Cabral: Yeah. But I mean, I think I sort of just sort of shared sort of what I did and the success it was for our meet and greets at, at the station. And I think it was through those relationships that I was able to build, it was a success. Stanley: Um-Hm. All right. Before we get into your experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center just one more question. What advice would you give someone starting out in the, in a field like community relations? Cabral: Gosh. I mean, I think you have to start, you have to--oh, that's a great question. Stanley: (laughs) All good. Cabral: It has to be, it has to be authentic. I think, you know, in a space where you have to build relationships for--and there is a certain goal in mind, make sure the goal aligns with your values, first off, because I know there's a lot of jobs that are out there that you have to build relationships, whether it's because you have to meet a sales quota or because you're like intentionally and authentically needing a certain thing. Or wanting some sort of reciprocation. And in my situation, you know, the reciprocation is that in hopes that I build relationships, that we see that our community partners will feel welcomed and trusted to share with us the newsroom in, in a time if there ever is a need of some sort. Or they're wanting to help elevate a story or a story pitch. And that aligns with me. I think, you know, I know a lot of sales folks who have to build relationships, but they're building the relationships because they have to get something out of it. And I think that can sometimes be unauthentic or transactional. So--and I'm not saying that that's bad, because, you know, we have a lot of phenomenal sales folks. It just really depends on where your values lie in, in sort. And for me, it was like, “I can't do transactional.” Transactional will be part of a relationship at some point in time, but I can't have it be the sole thing there. It can't be the priority or the priority purpose of my role. So for me, this community piece, when they were just like, “We just need you to build relationships and build trust,” I, when I heard that, I was like, “Absolutely.” And then I, right after that, I asked, “Well, what is your mission and values of the organization? And what are you all trying to accomplish?” And when they shared with me all of those things, I said, okay, that aligns really well with who I am as an individual. So this work is going to seem, I wouldn't say effortless, but it's going to come off a little bit easier for me because this is what I do . This is how I live. I live through authentic connections. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Through community building. And so that's, I think that's why I've been able to be so successful with my role. And so to go back to your question, what I, the advice that I give is, you know, if-- just make sure whatever work that you do aligns with your values and that the mission aligns with your values as an individual. Stanley: I like it. I like it (laughs). Cabral: Yep. Stanley: Well, let's get into the meat of the interview. Could you describe the, what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Cabral: Yeah. Oh, the Cross-Cultural Center was such a little center. I have not been back since I graduated, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --it was a small room, right next to the coffee cart. I don't even know where that's at anymore. But it was a very, very, very small room. And you know, we had a red couch and we had-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --you know, it was just like a little space. And essentially what it was, it was a community space for a lot of our multi-ethnic student organizations. It was a place where we put programming together. We did events. And it was a sub-department of Student Life and Leadership, if you will. Stanley: Um-Hm, yeah. Cabral: At the time we were working, gosh, in between (2011) through (2018), we had--at the time there was some phenomenal directors (in Student Life and Leadership) who worked very close--who built relationships amongst each other, who then really set the example for relationship-building. And so I know Sara Sheikh was like, she was my mentor. I used to see her as a beautiful soul. And as an individual who really, who really, gave me the foundation of who I'm today. And then we had Lea Burgess-Carland, who was the director of the Women's Center, which is now the Gender Equity Center. And I believe there was Roger, who was Roger De Andreas, who was the current Pride (LGBTQA Pride Center) director. And so at the time, those were the only three identity-based centers. And so we sort of had named ourselves the Social Justice Centers. And at the time they were all just very small. We had phenomenal, phenomenal staffing, programming. We were, we all were very collaborative and really--in really educating our campus community about inclusivity of gender equity of LGBT and sexual orientation theory and things of that nature. And so, yeah, it was, I mean, again it was (a) phenomenal time. Those--during that time, it was when I met some of my best friends who are still now my friends. So yeah. So that's a little bit about what that center was when we first got there. Stanley: Well I love hearing about the old red couches (laughter). Been interviewing people, people-- (Both talking) Cabral: --it was like the blue, it was like the Blues Clues couch, I swear. Stanley: (laughs) I heard you say that Sara Sheikh was your mentor. Could you tell me more about her? I actually was going to ask about her. Cabral: Oh, Sara Sheikh, my gosh. Where do I start? Sara Sheikh, she is an absolute beautiful soul. I just--very welcoming, inclusive, meets you where you're at. And I think as a mentor, as someone who had changed their career 100% to get into education I think it's like, there's a saying where there's people in your life that you didn't know you needed until you, until after the fact. And I think Sara Sheikh was that individual, you know as somebody who was closeted, gay, you know at the time that I was working there, she was able to help me embrace who I was as an individual. And to work those challenges out for me, like I said earlier, (connection issue) educating students and doing training and facilitating training. But I was a student as well because I was, as I was learning and teaching, I was learning myself. And I think she, Sara just had this, ugh, I don't know this beautiful aura of like, this, I--it's so hard to explain (Stanley laughs). I, we, I talk to my friends about Sara, and we're just like, “Yo, we miss Sara,” because she's doing her own thing now with her family in Orange County. But it's like, what a beautiful soul she was and is, because (of) her intentionality and the way she taught things and the way she facilitated was just effortless. But I, we knew that either she al--she always had those strengths, or she learned. She learned that, but like how great it was for us to be able to be part of that journey for her and for her to teach us. Because again, when I talk about, you know, my way of facilitating. My way--my active listening skills, my way in approaching things in large group settings and talking about multiculturalism and diversity and equity and inclusion, I embody and sometimes say like, “What would Sara do?” Because essentially it's like she facilitated and had these things with such grace, and never have I met someone else like Sara, like before. I hope you get to interview her, or somebody gets to interview her on sort of the f-- the foundation of what she's left, because, you know, I know her. And those, and the three directors that I mentioned started this social justice, the Social Justice Retreat, which was just absolutely incredible. In, in, in, in, in the time. And, you know, people who attended needed these spaces, needed these awakenings to really, to explore who they were as individuals, who they were as allies, who they were in their current state at that time. So yeah. So that's a little bit about Sara. Stanley: Well, I love that. I think it's pretty, pretty funny that I've interviewed a few people so far (laughs), and they've also called her a beautiful soul and-- Cabral: Aww Stanley: And also said, “What would Sarah do?” (Both laugh) And yeah, I didn't get to interview her, but one of my colleagues did and apparently was an incredible interview. So (laughs). Cabral: Oh God, I would love to hear it. God, I miss her voice so much. Stanley : Well it'll be up in the archives. Once it's up-- Cabral: Yes! Stanely: I'll be happy to send it to you. Yeah. Cabral: Oh my God, if you can, I would love that. Stanley: Perfect. Cabral: I would love it. Stanley: Anyway, continuing on, in what ways did your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center help you expand and develop as a person? Cabral: Oh Gosh. In what ways? Stanley: Um-hm. Yes. Cabral: Geez. I mean, in every way possible. In any way imaginatory, you know, as I think before I got into the Cross-Cultural Center, I was just living, I don't think I was living authentically. You know, I think--and again--being a closeted man as well-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --as gay Latino, I was, I didn't know where my future was going to go. And I think, you know, again, I didn't know I needed that space until I actually realized it. And once I was in it, or after the fact, and, you know I think being in that space, having Dilcie (Perez) giving me that opportunity to actually be a peer educator too, was beneficial personally and professionally. And I was able to come out as an openly gay man, which is--now I'm happily married and been in my, my relationship with for eight years and. You know, we have a family. And so if--I guess I always question and think about, if I were not in this space, if I was not, if I didn't challenge myself to really dive deep into who I was as an individual, would I be where I'm at today? I don't know. Because, you know--and I was a late--I was a student, I wasn't your traditional quote unquote, “traditionally-aged college student.” You know, I went to community college for five years. I was already in my career in the finance industry. And so when I was at Cal State San Marcos, I was working with a lot of folks who had just graduated high school, but I was already in my mid-twenties. And so, you know, I was in my mid-twenties, didn't know who I was as--I knew who I was as individual, as an individual, but I wasn't able to live it authentically. And so being in this space, being in this role (at the Cross-Cultural Center), having mentors who are just like, “I am out and proud and this is who I am,” empowered me to be that. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: And so for that I'm forever grateful. And which--and I think--which is why I made it a service of mine to live authentically, and to embrace, and to embrace who I am as an individual of my multiple identities that I have in hopes that I can too empower the youth, the--those new newly admitted college students or even adults, you know? And so, and I do have people time and time again, say like, “Wow, Gerardo you, I love how you just live authentically,” or I love how just authentic you are. And I was like, “That is, that is the only way you should live.” While I'm privileged to be able to live that way, you know, I know not everybody is. And so, it's, it's yeah. So I think to answer your question on how it's, how being in this space and in this role has changed me: I think it's changed me 100% of who I am today. And how--and the success of my career and personally and even the success within familial relationships, because I never had the tools of how to speak to my parents on who I was as an individual. How was I gonna come out to my parents and tell them? And, you know, through these facilitation courses, of training that I went through and these activism skills, I was able to come out to my parents in a way that, you know, I was able to help them understand too. And I gave them grace too, because they don't know any of sort of like the lingo that we talk about in academia (Stanley laughs), you know, because they don't have an (connection Issue ; inaudible)-- they for me to talk about equity and belonging and inclusivity, like none of that. They don't understand any of that. So I really had to be able to formulate words to where I was able to meet them where they're at and tell them how I appreciate them accepting me for who I am and having those difficult conversations. So I think it just, and my experience has, has impacted every aspect of my life. Stanley: Well, that's fantastic. I'm glad that the CCC really helped you in that way. I guess on the, on the flip side, oh (laughs), on the flip side of that question I would, I would ask how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop as a professional? Cabral: How did they how did the CCC-- (connection issue ; inaudible) Stanley: CCC help you develop as a professional? Cabral: Great question. I mean as a professional, I was able to navigate certain spaces with--you know--at the end of the day, we were a department of Student Life and Leadership. There were processes, protocols in place that we needed to follow, and so (connection issue ; audio cut)-- worked for other organizations and the finance industry. And so I knew protocol of like working, I knew expectations of the workplace. I knew the consequences or the repercussions if: should I not show up to work? Should I not turn in my timecard on time? Should I not follow procedures? I already knew what those, what those actions (connection Issue ; inaudible). So I felt, you know, I took this job extremely seriously already. I think it just helped me more so--be more confident in having conversations regarding these topics of multicultural education and in the DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) space. Stanley: All right. Well so you said yeah, co-- just more confidence. Yeah. Cabral: Yeah, I would say so. Stanley: Hmm. We're, we're winding down here. Let me ask you, what would maybe be your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center? Or just a memory, if you can't think of a specific one? Cabral: Oh (Stanley laughs). What was a favorite memory? Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Oh my gosh (Stanley laughs). There's so many. And I would have to say, my experience at the Social Justice Summit. Stanley: Okay. Cabral: You know, it was a weekend, a weekend retreat. And you know, you were committing to put yourself in a 100% vulnerable space. And I think for me it was great. You know, different types of life, like walks of life, walk into that room and be vulnerable and have those conversations and see the light bulbs. I saw the light bulbs myself, for myself. I saw them with others, and just the space that we were able to create that that they created of leaders, because I was a participant the first year, and then the next year I was a facilitator. And forever I (connection Issue ; audio cut)-- we, we helped facilitate and work with young leaders who wanted to explore their identities and this, (connection Issue ; audio cut)-- I would say. Then the other one sort-- (connection Issue ; unintelligible). Can you hear me? Stanley: Oh hi, sorry. It, it, it cut out a little, but I (both talking) heard, I heard mostly-- Cabral: Oh yeah. Stanley: You said-- Cabral: Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Stanley: Were, were you finished with your thought? I'm sorry about that. Cabral: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did. Stanley: Okay. And I'll wrap up the interview. I like to ask this one, this last question. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? Spaces like the Latin /x Center or the Black Student Center, places like that? Cabral: Oh, gosh. I mean that's a hard (connection issue ; inaudible) (question) for me to answer because I've seen the value of cross-cultural center spaces in various different campuses, and I've been part of those conversations as well at other campuses. But I also see the value of identity-specific centers and and some--the concern always comes up in these conversations at other institutions about, “Well, where does that lead to Cross-Culture Center?” Right? Because now that we've expanded into all these identity-based centers, what is now the purpose for the Cross-Culture Center? And to be completely honest, for me it's hard to answer because I'm just, I'm not entirely sure, because before we were a space where all identities and all ethnic groups were welcome then now that there are these spaces specific to these ethnic groups, like I'm, I'm curious. And again, I leave that up to that--the folks in academia and student affairs folks, because again, I'm not saying that it should be, like we should, we should remove them. I'm just curious as to how--I'm excited to see how we--we, because I feel like I'm sort of in an academia space still, but like how academia or the university sees this: the (Cross-Cultural) Center moving forward in a time where there's now a need for these ethnic spaces. So I am not entirely sure. What I hope is that, you know we are like, in an ideal world, I would love for the Cross-Cultural Center to be its own division, and then have the ethnic centers be within the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, because, you know, we--and then have the work talk about sort of that intersectionality piece of it all, of, of--with the Pride Center, with the LGBT Center, with the Gender Equity Center and things of that nature, because I think they all coexist together. And they all intersect, but it's like, how do we make sure that we intentionally do programming? And that's what that's what happened. You know, back in--when we were there, our directors made it a point that we did programs and we had assigned teams. So, you know, one member from the Cross-Cultural Center, from the Women's Center, and from the Pride Center would work on one program, and we had to make sure that we were being intentional with intersecting those identities to include as many diverse individuals as possible. And looking at it through different lenses. You know, because we're like, just because we're (connection Issue ; audio cut)-- So, like, we were always making sure that we're trying to like build those, those identities there. Stanley: Hm. All right. Well, yeah I ask that question to every interview(ee), and they do say a lot of similar things. The intentionality is what they always say. It's like they need to know what they're going to do with the center sort of thing. So thank you so much, Gerardo, for coming and I'll inter--, end the interview here. Cabral: Alright, Seth, thank you so much for your time and I look forward to, yeah, once you're done, please send, send that link over. I would love to listen to other folks. Stanley: (Laughs) I'm gonnna stop the recording here. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28.xml CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cabral, Gerardo. Interview April 28th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gerardo Cabral is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his Bachelors of Business degree in 2011. Gerardo worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2011. In this interview, Cabral discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center was a space that cultivated and enriched self-identity. It provided not only students with a voice but Cabral to begin living his true authentic life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-36 Subject The topic of the resource Broadcast journalism California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center LGBTQ+ life Education, Higher Human rights Student success Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gerardo Cabral Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sacramento (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gerardo Cabral Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience LGBTQIA+ experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniela Carreon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Carreon, Daniela. Interview April 6th, 2023. SC027-40 00:46:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance ; California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies ; California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services ; Civil rights ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán ; Student movements ; Psychic trauma Daniela Carreon Michael De Maria CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.mp4 1:|16(2)|30(3)|38(15)|55(2)|67(12)|87(5)|106(2)|116(9)|141(4)|157(13)|168(9)|192(8)|202(13)|225(3)|254(2)|265(12)|275(9)|285(8)|302(2)|320(2)|332(16)|348(4)|358(8)|367(6)|377(7)|393(12)|405(10)|415(9)|424(7)|435(8)|457(10)|468(15)|482(6)|509(7)|521(16)|530(14)|547(2)|557(3)|570(11)|583(5)|596(8)|616(2)|628(14)|654(5)|666(17)|680(10)|694(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7a398a04e0a57b5ef9c910c7403f33fc.mp4 Other video English 0 Carreon's Background Michael De Maria introduces Daniela Carreon to speak about her experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM. To begin, Carreon speaks to her background growing up Escondido and going to school in Encinitas. She explains the differing demographics and what it was like as a Latina attending a predominately affluent and White school. 0 227 Pathway to CSUSM From her earlier educational experience, Daniela explains her reasoning for attending CSUSM. She explains not wanting to attend another PWI (Predominantly White Institution), such as Sonoma State. Instead, Carreon chose to attend the ethnically and economically diverse CSUSM. Regarding personal growth, Carreon considered this one of her best decisions. 0 384 Becoming Involved with the Cross-Cultural Center Through a first-year general education course, Carreon first became aware of the CCC. For a class assignment, she interviewed former CCC director Floyd Lai. Through Carreon's work with MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán), Carreon began mentoring incoming freshman, and later applied to become the center's social media manager. 0 494 Earlier CCC Development Carreon recalls the CCC when she first began her involvement, when programs such as Critical Cougars and the Activist Lab were not yet implemented. As social media manager, Carreon's role focused on outreach and promotion of educational imagery ; an education that came from political unlearning, which Carreon speaks about later on. 0 570 Relationship Between the CCC and Other Student Organizations Through her role as a social media manager at the CCC, and her work with MEChA, Carreon remembers the solidarity between student organizations. From simply sharing the space together, to actively supporting the Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino student organization) and their initiatives. 0 681 Student and Professional Staff Carreon remembers her relationship with CSUSM employees, including Floyd Lai and Shannon Nolan. Carreon recounts assisting with program development, and recalls helping student programmers the most, particularly with event set-up and overall organization. As a previous programmer herself, Carreon was able to mentor several incoming programmers at the CCC. 0 809 Programs at the CCC Carreon recalls the different programs that the Cross-Culutral Center has offered. From her first two Social Justice Summits, to the Activist Lab, Daniela was engaged with several forms of activism and advocacy at CSUSM. Within these programs, she recalls the politically engaging conversations which considered such topics as anti-Blackness, white supremacy, and what abolitionism truly looks like. Overall, the CCC provided Carreon the ability to engage with other student activists. 0 1133 Favorite Memories and Political Unlearning Carreon recalls some of her favorite memories during her work at the Cross-Cultural Center. In particular, Carreon enjoyed getting one her friends memorialized with artwork at the CCC. Additionally, De Maria revisits the idea of political unlearning and what that meant for Carreon. Carreon recalls that the CCC provided the space to engage with conversations about gentrification, colonialism, and the intersectionality of feminism. 0 1510 Carreon's Studies at CSUSM Considering the amount of interests she had, Carreon had a hard time finding a major. She initially chose sociology for its adaptability. However once Ethnic Studies was approved as a major at CSUSM, Daniela realized this avenue best fit her intended future work. The experience of taking courses for the major was difficult, yet Carreon was glad to have declared Ethnic Studies as a major. 0 1826 CCC Impacts and Role with Other Organizations De Maria asks Carreon about the overall impacts of the CCC upon her life. Regarding cultural identity, Carreon considers her time at the CCC to have enabled her unapologetic attitude. Additionally, the Carreon considers the CCC's role with other student centers/organizations on campus. 0 2053 Underrepresented Communities at CSUSM Carreon considers currently underrepresented communities at CSUSM, including Indigenous American Indians as well as Asian Pacific Islander Desi American (APIDA) students who rely upon the CCC. Carreon discusses how CSUSM underestimated the extent to which students would engage with identity-based centers. 0 2171 Carreon's Career Ambitions As a doctoral student, Carreon defines her work and her future ambitions. This includes her research upon the impacts of trauma, specifically among Latinas. Through this work, she considers the idea of embracing joy even through traumatic moments. She hopes to continue this profound work and because of her experience at CSUSM, she would choose to apply in the future. Additionally, De Maria inquires about the challenges of utilizing quantitative data while maintaining humanistic qualities in research.&#13 ; 0 2617 Wrapping Up with Important Lessons Carreon discusses her biggest takeaways from her experience working with the Cross-Cultural Center. Carreon also realized her ability to disengage from potentially harmful conversations. Daniela expresses gratitude to the CCC for reinforcing the ability to walk away from difficult conversations. 0 Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work &amp ; goals as a sociology PhD student. De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought up in and a little bit about your childhood. Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds. And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs). De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization? Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people, but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah. De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San Marcos)? Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs). De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good. Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?” And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent, their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal growth, so. De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai ; Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership &amp ; Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption). Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-- De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org? Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more, we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate others. De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student Union. Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino &amp ; Filipino-American student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events. Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students, like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So, yeah. De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like between you and your superiors? Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) Or-- De Maria: Or both. Excuse me. Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know, we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them. I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino (Latin /X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned (laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in my previous interviews, so I— (Carreon interrupts ; two speakers) Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)? De Maria: Yes. Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So, that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd never experienced Café La Paz (laugh). De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well. Carreon: Mm-hmm. De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable. Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights (political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester (laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So, I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as well is within itself doing activist work. De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had. And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was? Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one? De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind. Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months, a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin /X) Center and the Gender Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories. Yeah. (laughs) De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that journey. Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them, but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So. De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know, how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying. Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn. And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that. And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral &amp ; Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to just sign off. So. De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run? Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? Like- De Maria: Yeah. Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas. So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself. De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions? Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s, CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the Cross-Cultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years. De Maria: Right. Yeah. Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So. De Maria: Got it. Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs). De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently underrepresented? Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably, what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think, you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are? Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from intergenerational trauma or death. So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing. Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So. De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience. Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-- De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your biggest challenges of doing that? Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers (laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you. Carreon: You said my most important, sorry? De Maria: Lesson. Carreon: My most important lesson? De Maria: That you've taken. Carreon: Probably to pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard (laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of, of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand people. So. De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable, and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for the school. Carreon: Yeah (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela. Carreon: All right. Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.xml CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carreon, Daniela. Interview April 6th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-40 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services Civil rights Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán Student movements Psychic trauma Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniela Carreon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Daniela Carreon Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diania Caudell OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-22 1:35:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Oceanside (Calif.) Diania Caudell Linda Kallas mp4 CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access_redacted.mp4 1:|23(17)|51(14)|74(5)|91(9)|108(14)|129(9)|139(14)|156(6)|168(11)|179(10)|196(9)|215(13)|233(8)|248(2)|265(9)|282(2)|300(17)|312(13)|340(16)|373(13)|399(13)|418(11)|435(5)|458(2)|482(12)|497(4)|513(2)|533(6)|552(8)|567(7)|584(9)|601(8)|626(4)|645(12)|668(10)|684(13)|710(7)|729(7)|751(5)|765(7)|792(7)|816(12)|830(5)|857(12)|875(11)|904(17)|924(12)|947(6)|967(7)|989(14)|1008(8)|1030(2)|1044(10)|1061(14)|1082(9)|1100(1)|1123(13)|1148(8)|1170(9)|1192(9)|1209(1)|1220(1)|1235(15)|1255(1)|1280(9)|1294(14)|1320(7)|1340(14)|1356(3)|1382(10)|1402(4)|1432(12)|1452(9)|1472(6)|1487(8)|1503(5)|1546(12)|1562(15)|1580(16)|1603(4)|1622(9)|1638(6)|1659(2)|1682(6)|1722(3)|1761(12)|1780(1)|1791(6)|1806(11)|1820(8)|1840(16)|1854(2)|1876(3)|1895(7)|1907(7) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/214f3df10b105188751e6d028fef0176.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Family background Diania Caudell discusses her family’s background. Diania explains that one side of her family is part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and that goes back nine generations. The other side of her family is French, and her great-grandfather, Hubert Foussat, was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside, CA. She also discusses other family details, such as the fact that she and her parents moved around the West Coast during her childhood due to her father’s career in construction, as well as information about her grandmother who worked at Camp Pendleton. family history ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians 339 Activism in Indian education reform Diania Caudell discusses her activism in advocating for the Acjachemen and Juaneño people for education reform in San Jan Capistrano, CA. She recalls fighting against Indigenous erasure in her children’s classrooms. She describes the complicated history of school registration files in terms of ethnicity, and how many Indigenous families were taught to select either “Other” or “Caucasian” on school and other legal forms. She explains how this causes erasure in the school system. She recalls surveying the K-12 registration files in the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District and identified 210 Indigenous students. This led to the formation of the San Juan Capistrano Council, which established an Indian Research Center. Acjachemen people ; activism ; education reform ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous students ; Juaneño people ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 727 Back injury/ Career in basketry Diania Caudell describes a back injury she suffered. She recounts deciding to undergo back surgery and learning how to walk again. While recovering from the surgery, the Acjachemen people sent her a newsletter about basketry. She describes making the decision to learn basket-weaving in order to learn patience for her recovery, and also to expand her knowledge on Indian education. Acjachemen people ; Back injury ; Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education 1167 Indigenous educational programs Diania Caudell discusses the current state of the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District. The Indian Research Center is open to the student population, but she explains that it requires federal funding to remain open. She also explains that the Research Center is also open in Huntington Beach because they have a large Cherokee community in the area. She explains how Indigenous history is not properly taught in K-12 schools. activism ; Cherokee people ; education reform ; Huntington Beach (Calif.) ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous students ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 1511 The California Indian Basketry Weavers Association Diania Caudell discusses her involvement with the California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA). She explains that she has been a CIBA board member for at least twelve years. Before joining the board, the CIBA discovered that the traditional materials that are used in basket weaving were being destroyed due to development projects. Since becoming a board member, Diania has advocated towards protecting Southern California native lands. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 1968 The foundations of basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the various types of traditional plants that are used in basket-weaving. She explains that California is home to over 243 tribes, and that each tribe uses different plants. In Southern California, about five different plants are used in basket-weaving, such as the Juncus textilis and yucca. Diania also describes the many different weaving and dyeing techniques that are used in basketry. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 3030 Pesticide and insecticide effects on native plants and basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the dangers pesticides and insecticides have on native plants and on the health of the community. This is an important topic that she has brought awareness to as a CIBA board member. Cities and counties often will not provide notice to their citizens when they begin spraying to protect against insects and rodents, and this causes major health concerns to basket-weavers or others who regularly pick native plants and crops. She describes an incident in which she smelled a plant and experienced a chemical reaction. She expresses concern for places like golf courses and hiking trails, where athletes, families, children, and animals frequent regularly. Diania also explains how the chemicals are affecting food and water supplies in Indigenous communities. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Insecticides ; Native lands ; Native plants ; Pesticides 3584 Local volunteer work Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work in North County. She has volunteered her time at Camp Pendelton, at Daly Ranch, and at local elementary schools. Diania discusses in great detail her time as a docent at Daly Ranch, where she aided in the “Indian program” and presented on the history of local Indigenous communities. She recalls bonding with one of the rangers and how they made a wiiwish dish together. She also recalls how her role expanded while volunteering at the Daly Ranch, other volunteers with whom she worked, and the school group programs she helped develop. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California State University San Marcos ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Daly Ranch ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; students 3994 Basket-weaving at Mission San Luis Rey Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work at Mission San Luis Rey. She provided a basket-weaving demonstration to forty-six Franciscans. She describes expecting to see the Franciscan friars dressed in traditional robes, but was surprised to find them dressed in modern street clothes. She recalls the demonstration being a rewarding experience for all involved. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Catholic Church ; Franciscan friars ; friars ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) 4328 Upcoming presentations Diania Caudell discusses the upcoming presentations she has scheduled in North County. She talks about planning to do basket-weaving demonstrations at Pablo Tac elementary school. She also talks about performing at the upcoming Jubilation of the Valley Festival and doing another basket-weaving demonstration at a senior center. She also recounts her recent demonstration at Camp Pendleton, where she discussed the native plants near the area with the audience. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Schools ; Students 4606 Controversy over working with the Mission Diania Caudell reflects on the criticism she has received from the Indigenous community about her volunteer work at the Mission San Luis Rey. She states that she is not condoning the racist history of the Mission towards their Indigenous community, but she also wants to pay her respects to her ancestors who are buried on the Mission grounds. She explains the complicated history the Luiseño people have with the Mission, especially those whose ancestors helped built the Mission, or who were educated and lived on the Mission’s grounds. family history ; genocide ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; racism 5016 Becoming a historian/ The Luiseño language Diania Caudell discusses how she became a historian of Indigenous history. She explains how she attended California State University Riverside to learn the Luiseño language. She then performs a demo language presentation with the interviewer. She uses laminated cards containing illustrations with associating Luiseño words for the demo presentation. Diania also reads a poem that she wrote about the Luiseño people and their creation story that was inspired by a hike up a mountain near Rainbow, CA. California State University Riverside ; historian ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Indigenous poetry ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; poetry ; Rainbow (Calif.) Oral history Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003. DC: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. Diania Caudell: No $uun Looviq [&quot ; My heart is good&quot ; in Luiseno. Our way of saying &quot ; thank you.&quot ; ] [chuckles] Linda: Miiyu. [&quot ; Hello&quot ; to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were--I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I-- [redacted] 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego--Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly--before that it was all oral. So, um, we&#039 ; ve been here over nine generations. That&#039 ; s on the native side. LK: That&#039 ; s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means-- DC: It means that-- LK: On the other side is-- DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there&#039 ; s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that&#039 ; s not at a--that&#039 ; s not named after my great grandfather. That&#039 ; s named, really, with--after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he&#039 ; s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there&#039 ; s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. DC: Yes. She&#039 ; s--I&#039 ; ve always called her as an aunt, but she&#039 ; s really a cousin. Um, she was--she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that&#039 ; s another one that&#039 ; s--she was born at Pala, and, uh,that&#039 ; s another side of our family, my father&#039 ; s side, that had been here a long time. That&#039 ; s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother-- LK: Okay. DC: --was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so-- LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it--all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn&#039 ; t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than--growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m a construction brat, let&#039 ; s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family&#039 ; s from here. My father&#039 ; s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you&#039 ; re gonna say support network, you&#039 ; re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large--just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there&#039 ; s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let&#039 ; s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her--until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it&#039 ; s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I&#039 ; m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have--I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I&#039 ; m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what--how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let&#039 ; s just start that--when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I&#039 ; m an accountant by trade. That wasn&#039 ; t really what I wanted to do, but that&#039 ; s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed--like to work with numbers. I&#039 ; m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn&#039 ; t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that&#039 ; s a story that-- I can go into that, and I think I--it&#039 ; s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say &quot ; Don&#039 ; t argue, Diania, just let it go.&quot ; And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into--in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it&#039 ; s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened--how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask &quot ; how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, speak Spanish.&quot ; Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You&#039 ; ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that&#039 ; s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying &quot ; well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer.&quot ; And I go, &quot ; no, that can&#039 ; t be, because I&#039 ; m here. I&#039 ; ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are--that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you&#039 ; re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you&#039 ; re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days--I&#039 ; m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian--not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn&#039 ; t have the--what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under &quot ; Other&quot ; as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn&#039 ; t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn&#039 ; t want to register as Native American because it wasn&#039 ; t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she&#039 ; s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I&#039 ; ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of--in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren&#039 ; t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that&#039 ; s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that&#039 ; s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don&#039 ; t want to describe the fall, because it&#039 ; s kind of, you know, it&#039 ; s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I&#039 ; d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn&#039 ; t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says &quot ; This isn&#039 ; t that, you know. This is something else.&quot ; And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I--and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn&#039 ; t--you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I&#039 ; m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I&#039 ; m not a medic, medical person-- I was diag--rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad&#039 ; s side, my grandmother&#039 ; s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother&#039 ; s side, but on, through my dad&#039 ; s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that&#039 ; s what they found with the MRI. So, they said &quot ; Diania, if you don&#039 ; t have, do something with it, it&#039 ; s going to get worse, and you&#039 ; re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn&#039 ; t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn&#039 ; t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes &lt ; sic&gt ; . They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh-- DC: And uh, &#039 ; cuz it, nothing&#039 ; s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn&#039 ; t realize that I couldn&#039 ; t walk because the nurses tried to--they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you&#039 ; re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you&#039 ; re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me--they said &quot ; Diania, you&#039 ; re going to have to learn patience.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m not one with patience, let&#039 ; s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn&#039 ; t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She&#039 ; s an elder. She&#039 ; s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went &quot ; Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry.&quot ; LK: Oh-- DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they&#039 ; re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said &quot ; Diania, you know, we&#039 ; re need--we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people.&quot ; And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she--her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn&#039 ; t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said &quot ; you&#039 ; re not a weaver, you know, you&#039 ; re just not a weaver.&quot ; And then she says &quot ; Why?&quot ; And I says &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m in the hospital, and I can&#039 ; t walk, and I need to learn patience.&quot ; So, when she heard that, she says &quot ; okay, when you&#039 ; re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we&#039 ; ll come to you.&quot ; And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months--let&#039 ; s see, I had the operation in April ; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh--sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work--it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a--I couldn&#039 ; t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn&#039 ; t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don&#039 ; t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it--people don&#039 ; t realize that, you know, that I don&#039 ; t, but that&#039 ; s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? LK: That was &#039 ; 01. DC: Okay, &#039 ; 01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of &#039 ; 01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says--my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was--that&#039 ; s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it&#039 ; s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on--I have been on social security disability, because I can&#039 ; t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I&#039 ; m sorry, you know, but that--My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that&#039 ; s how I got into basketry and I&#039 ; m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it&#039 ; s taken me learning different things, you know, getting--you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that--I--but I wanted to go back, just for a minute-- DC: Okay. LK: --to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it&#039 ; s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it&#039 ; s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. DC: It doesn&#039 ; t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It&#039 ; s funding, it&#039 ; s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it&#039 ; s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don&#039 ; t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn&#039 ; t taught in schools. This isn&#039 ; t taught in--you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you&#039 ; re involved with Native Americans and their--and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh-- DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I&#039 ; ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it&#039 ; s a--it was--it&#039 ; s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their &quot ; homeland&quot ; and give them incentives at that time that &quot ; we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there&quot ; and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be-- DC: Well, San Diego County had a big--has a big Indian education program. They did--they--you just don&#039 ; t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I&#039 ; ve notified Oceanside. I&#039 ; ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child&#039 ; s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn&#039 ; t mean they&#039 ; re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they&#039 ; ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it gets a parent, it&#039 ; s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we&#039 ; ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That&#039 ; s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say &quot ; No, that&#039 ; s not correct. We will want our own books coming in.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn&#039 ; t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we--it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn&#039 ; t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don&#039 ; t think that Capistrano would have done it either. &#039 ; Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so-- LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s--today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it--I know my grandchildren went through it--they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn&#039 ; t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st--with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they--at first it was &quot ; why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?&quot ; [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That&#039 ; s wonderful. So, you&#039 ; ve already explained a little bit about your life&#039 ; s path, how it&#039 ; s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don&#039 ; t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You&#039 ; re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that&#039 ; s another thing that I have been a member of and I&#039 ; m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say--let&#039 ; s just say the last 12 years. I know it&#039 ; s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket--learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn&#039 ; t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we&#039 ; ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people--where they were sent--aren&#039 ; t on their homelands. I mean-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s not where they would have their medi--their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had--the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn&#039 ; t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don&#039 ; t have that. In northern California they don&#039 ; t have the same restrictions. But it&#039 ; s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they&#039 ; re on their homelands. They&#039 ; re rancherias. They weren&#039 ; t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They&#039 ; ve had little rancherias, then. That&#039 ; s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you&#039 ; ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They&#039 ; re in the forest up there. They have the red for--the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They&#039 ; ve got a lot of their plants. And that&#039 ; s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that&#039 ; s―they don&#039 ; t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I&#039 ; d say &quot ; how come, what for?&quot ; And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking &quot ; how come, what for, why is it that in California we don&#039 ; t have this, when you have it up there?&quot ; And then I was told by a board member, &quot ; Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don&#039 ; t you--we&#039 ; re having a Board election. Why don&#039 ; t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?&quot ; Well, I got elected. You know, I mean, I didn&#039 ; t expect that at all. And I&#039 ; ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn&#039 ; t enjoy what I&#039 ; m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don&#039 ; t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They&#039 ; ve all been-- DC: Yes, uh-- LK: --plowed over or-- DC: Um, there&#039 ; s a--[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading &quot ; Indian Rock Project&quot ; ] okay, let me just see, I&#039 ; m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St--uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just--[flipping through pages]--the--when you see what they--when you ask me about, uh--[looking at a particular page]--uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all--she&#039 ; s probably going to edit this, but that&#039 ; s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural-- DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here &quot ; preserving tradition&quot ; and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]--I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don&#039 ; t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she&#039 ; s reading from the booklet] &quot ; a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers--&quot ; Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in.&quot ; That was a statement that I had made, you know, for--for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have--if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve &#039 ; em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you&#039 ; re looking at it. I&#039 ; m looking at the Mission San Juan--Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff like this, you&#039 ; ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what&#039 ; s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say--99-some years. You&#039 ; ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It&#039 ; s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it&#039 ; s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you&#039 ; re seeing development. So, it&#039 ; s really hard on-- LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don&#039 ; t understand, for me, where they&#039 ; re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water--that&#039 ; s one of the things that we don&#039 ; t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know--if you&#039 ; re going to feed, you&#039 ; ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can&#039 ; t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they&#039 ; re doing desalting plant, but that&#039 ; s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that&#039 ; s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it&#039 ; s money. It&#039 ; s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won&#039 ; t go into that--[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets-- DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional-- DC: --Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the--in California, it&#039 ; s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don&#039 ; t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It&#039 ; s like a tule, if you&#039 ; ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it&#039 ; s not cornered or-- Tule has three--is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It&#039 ; s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It could--If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes--what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]-- you know, you pull it out of the shoots-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --you know, like crab grass-- LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it&#039 ; s growing at and the materials that are in the--minerals--excuse me--that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it&#039 ; ll have color on it. And it&#039 ; s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn&#039 ; t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn&#039 ; t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you&#039 ; ll see this deep red color or brown color-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It&#039 ; s green when you plant--It&#039 ; s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That&#039 ; s another thing. We call it--it&#039 ; s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it&#039 ; s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that&#039 ; s why we don&#039 ; t teach it as much, because some people don&#039 ; t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That&#039 ; s what, that&#039 ; s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that--what is it, yucca--uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the &quot ; Lord&#039 ; s Candle.&quot ; It think you&#039 ; ve seen it down by the road. You&#039 ; ll see it growing on the hillsides. There&#039 ; s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC:--and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they&#039 ; re--you know, when you&#039 ; re drying them. And they&#039 ; ll--they&#039 ; ll turn fibrous, like string-- LK: Oh. DC:--and that&#039 ; s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred &#039 ; em with a needle--we do--or pound them, and uh, you don&#039 ; t need to go out there anymore because you&#039 ; re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I&#039 ; m not going to. But you have enough to where you don&#039 ; t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it&#039 ; s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it&#039 ; s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa--that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries--just take it out, you know get it--because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn&#039 ; t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that&#039 ; s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you&#039 ; ll see that one by one, they&#039 ; re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They&#039 ; re coiling the Juncus textilis. They&#039 ; re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it&#039 ; s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can&#039 ; t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It&#039 ; s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it&#039 ; s not going to grow everywhere. So, there&#039 ; s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it&#039 ; s at, you can see it in the public, it&#039 ; s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good--kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis looks like. See, uh--[sighs]--but doing basketry is that--what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I&#039 ; ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?--LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with--[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]--I don&#039 ; t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I&#039 ; m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that&#039 ; s all rusty. And what you do--you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it&#039 ; s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It&#039 ; s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going &#039 ; til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water--and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It&#039 ; s like I tell you, it&#039 ; s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it&#039 ; s--and you&#039 ; re getting the iron--what do you call that? Iron oxide?-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that&#039 ; s also what&#039 ; s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They&#039 ; d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it&#039 ; ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know--black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch &#039 ; em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they&#039 ; re called, and if you&#039 ; ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. DC: Okay, because that--on the hull--because you take that, well they&#039 ; ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they&#039 ; ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That&#039 ; s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush &#039 ; em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools--when you get to the school-- [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I&#039 ; ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh--we have our own twine, excuse me, but it&#039 ; s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It&#039 ; s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don&#039 ; t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn&#039 ; t want to go down there because it&#039 ; s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it &quot ; Cherokee Single Walled Twine.&quot ; We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don&#039 ; t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can&#039 ; t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren&#039 ; t--it doesn&#039 ; t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we&#039 ; re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we&#039 ; re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them-- DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you&#039 ; re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call &#039 ; em, have you ever seen them on pictures-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They&#039 ; re woven green, and when they&#039 ; re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that&#039 ; s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They&#039 ; ve found, when they&#039 ; ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you&#039 ; ll see a granary that is still up. But, it&#039 ; s a natural insecticide. People don&#039 ; t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide-- LK: That&#039 ; s interesting. DC: --to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men-- DC: I would say-- LK: --create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you&#039 ; ve got to think about--before contact, especially here in California, we&#039 ; re the last native people that were contacted as they came west-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our--they were utilized for everything. And that&#039 ; s why they can say that &quot ; Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water.&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they&#039 ; ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. DC: So, but they also had the--and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It&#039 ; s more fire resistant. And that&#039 ; s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that&#039 ; s kind of―it&#039 ; s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s because it&#039 ; s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be--resistance, how can I say this--fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they&#039 ; d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,―LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they&#039 ; re made out of the willow. Um, they didn&#039 ; t make them--northern California, they made &#039 ; em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that&#039 ; s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it&#039 ; s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that&#039 ; s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it&#039 ; s a form of functional art. I mean, &#039 ; cuz it is a form of art. That&#039 ; s what-- DC: Well, it didn&#039 ; t become a form of art until it--until I would say, after contact-- LK: Right. DC: --because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let&#039 ; s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It&#039 ; s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my--you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,--how can I say these--we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them--the grinding area, they call &#039 ; em grinding stones, grinding-- Can you imagine the woman that&#039 ; s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the--by looking at these grinding areas, or grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just--it didn&#039 ; t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I&#039 ; ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn&#039 ; t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn&#039 ; t, after that, I couldn&#039 ; t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said &quot ; Our women must have had--the women must have had shoulders and-- LK: Strong arms. DC: --biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn--wiiwish, we call it--or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um--we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I&#039 ; ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an &#039 ; s.&#039 ; But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that&#039 ; s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn&#039 ; t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said &quot ; Diania, how come you don&#039 ; t do it the traditional way?&quot ; I said &quot ; Uh-uh&quot ; [shaking her head] I said &quot ; my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too.&quot ; I said &quot ; There&#039 ; s no way I&#039 ; m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound.&quot ; I mean it&#039 ; s kind of like a joke but it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s--you know, you know, when progress comes, I&#039 ; m sure they, they would have--they wouldn&#039 ; t have stayed with their old ways. That&#039 ; s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you&#039 ; re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that&#039 ; s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don&#039 ; t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they&#039 ; re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they&#039 ; ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there&#039 ; s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you&#039 ; re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if how they&#039 ; re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a &quot ; whoosh&quot ; sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There&#039 ; s no signs that tell you that &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; re going to be spraying today!&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn&#039 ; t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I&#039 ; ve been up there when they&#039 ; ve done that, and they&#039 ; ve got notices all over―&quot ; Shut Your Windows&quot ; , &quot ; Shut Your House&quot ; , &quot ; Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour&quot ; ― because they&#039 ; re coming in and just sprayin&#039 ; and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don&#039 ; t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don&#039 ; t know about it, and then you see the plants and you&#039 ; re going to go through it, you don&#039 ; t know if it&#039 ; s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I&#039 ; ve had, that&#039 ; s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said &quot ; Diania, what did you do?&quot ; I says &quot ; okay, this is where I was at.&quot ; And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it&#039 ; s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you&#039 ; re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your &quot ; cides&quot ; they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don&#039 ; t want any rodents. They don&#039 ; t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they&#039 ; re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn&#039 ; t tell you that they&#039 ; re spraying. I don&#039 ; t, I&#039 ; ve never gone by a golf course that said &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; re spraying today. There&#039 ; s a sign.&quot ; And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don&#039 ; t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I&#039 ; m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they&#039 ; re walking in it, but you don&#039 ; t know if they&#039 ; ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it&#039 ; s called &quot ; Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know.&quot ; But, this doesn&#039 ; t just tell you for basket weavers. It&#039 ; s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you&#039 ; ve got the contact if you&#039 ; ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they&#039 ; re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I&#039 ; m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don&#039 ; t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it&#039 ; s just an awareness about pesticides when you&#039 ; re out there. And it, you don&#039 ; t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it&#039 ; s some type of spraying and it&#039 ; s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we&#039 ; ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they&#039 ; ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they&#039 ; re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don&#039 ; t want to be digesting it. They don&#039 ; t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they&#039 ; re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it&#039 ; s safe. They don&#039 ; t want to get sick. They don&#039 ; t want their own families to get sick. So, it&#039 ; s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this--how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about &#039 ; 93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm-- DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that&#039 ; s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they&#039 ; re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They&#039 ; re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water-- LK: Hmmm-- DC: --as a dump. You&#039 ; re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That&#039 ; s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn&#039 ; t figure out why. Because it wasn&#039 ; t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You&#039 ; re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in &#039 ; 93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides-- LK: Huh. DC: --to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can&#039 ; t stop it. You can only, you know. That&#039 ; s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What&#039 ; s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can&#039 ; t, sometimes you can&#039 ; t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can&#039 ; t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don&#039 ; t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the &quot ; mainland&quot ; they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it&#039 ; s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don&#039 ; t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s cleaning out too. Because it&#039 ; s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they&#039 ; re contaminated. And it&#039 ; s all because of us down here, meaning, I&#039 ; m saying &quot ; us&quot ; , mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It&#039 ; s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that&#039 ; s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You&#039 ; ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren&#039 ; t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn&#039 ; t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small &quot ; Indian program&quot ; you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he&#039 ; s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can&#039 ; t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went &quot ; What?&quot ; , you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying &#039 ; no&#039 ; with her fingers] I don&#039 ; t know. And I&#039 ; m going asking &quot ; How did you do this?&quot ; Well, he used the acorn, but he didn&#039 ; t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says &quot ; well, teach me!&quot ; So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o&#039 ; clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I&#039 ; m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I&#039 ; m the native American portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I&#039 ; m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There&#039 ; s, there&#039 ; s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can&#039 ; t see, that know that they&#039 ; re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It&#039 ; s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I&#039 ; ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it&#039 ; s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who&#039 ; s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who&#039 ; s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it&#039 ; s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask &quot ; Well, how much do you get?&quot ; And I says &quot ; Nope.&quot ; I says &quot ; I can&#039 ; t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it&#039 ; s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through--It&#039 ; s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That&#039 ; s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they&#039 ; re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that&#039 ; s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We&#039 ; ve been doing that for seven years, and that&#039 ; s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they&#039 ; re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5-minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you&#039 ; ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you&#039 ; d have all these third graders in one room, sittin&#039 ; on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it&#039 ; s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We&#039 ; d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they&#039 ; re done. If they didn&#039 ; t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar--in their art department students. So we&#039 ; ve been doing that for quite a while. I&#039 ; ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission-- DC: --Oh! LK: --San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she&#039 ; s sees, she&#039 ; s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey--people don&#039 ; t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They&#039 ; re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I&#039 ; m not--I&#039 ; m a Catholic, but I&#039 ; m not that kind. I&#039 ; m not a practicing Catholic. Let&#039 ; s put it that way. But, um, so they&#039 ; re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there&#039 ; s one more, and I&#039 ; m going to better learn that one too because there&#039 ; s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the &quot ; Catholic.&quot ; San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you&#039 ; ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars--well, they&#039 ; re not--they&#039 ; re friars--the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don&#039 ; t know that they&#039 ; re there, because they&#039 ; re not really public other than when you see &#039 ; em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says &quot ; Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry.&quot ; Well, Father David, or Brother David--he&#039 ; s up at Santa Barbara now--he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That&#039 ; s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren&#039 ; t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices ; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order ; some that were graduated already into the order ; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn&#039 ; t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked &quot ; Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?&quot ; My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven&#039 ; t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It&#039 ; s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta--not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says &quot ; Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this.&quot ; And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting--when we were setting up, all of us were expecting--there&#039 ; s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she&#039 ; s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can&#039 ; t pronounce her last name. My cousin--Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can&#039 ; t pro--) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married-- LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an &quot ; A&quot ; [indicates a letter &quot ; A&quot ; as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was--Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes &quot ; Me?&quot ; and I says &quot ; Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You&#039 ; ve been sittin&#039 ; with us for a while. You can come in here.&quot ; And we&#039 ; re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into--with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That&#039 ; s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They&#039 ; re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say &quot ; Surf&#039 ; s Up!&quot ; you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they&#039 ; re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I&#039 ; m going &quot ; Whoa, okay.&quot ; You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a--we had a good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um-- DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill-- DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot-- LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets--[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn&#039 ; t mean that you&#039 ; re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that&#039 ; s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a--it was--it was--it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that&#039 ; s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba--baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that&#039 ; s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don&#039 ; t-- No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you&#039 ; re--you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I&#039 ; ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta--hopefully Reinette will be there--traditional weaving. We&#039 ; re not going to be teaching. That&#039 ; s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I&#039 ; m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I&#039 ; ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, &#039 ; 90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so--. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran--on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don&#039 ; t realize it, that we&#039 ; ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we&#039 ; re kept close with the--they&#039 ; re kept close with the different tribes. And since I&#039 ; m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don&#039 ; t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they&#039 ; re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, &#039 ; cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren&#039 ; t being sprayed. And, so there&#039 ; s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at --I can&#039 ; t think of it. I just--I worked with her, and um, was--a-- how?--docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn&#039 ; t want to just be the docent dressed in the--how can I say this?-- We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You&#039 ; ve been there, right? And, uh--Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I&#039 ; m comin&#039 ; in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I&#039 ; m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it&#039 ; s that, uh, react? That we&#039 ; ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think--they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to be a docent. I just--can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people,&quot ; with her. And she just said [shaking her head]--she says &quot ; heck yes, please, let&#039 ; s come in&quot ; and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn&#039 ; t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we&#039 ; re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers --uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had--he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That&#039 ; s the last thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we&#039 ; re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we&#039 ; re going to have, coming up in November-- LK: --the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm-- DC: --Spirit of the Valley-- LK: --Spirit of the Valley. DC: --with Studio Ace. And we&#039 ; re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I&#039 ; m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --okay? It&#039 ; s not gonna--it&#039 ; s not Luiseño style. And so we&#039 ; re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]-- LK: And you&#039 ; ve been invited-- DC: --from 11 to 3. LK: --to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the-- DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It&#039 ; s just a--thank you, Linda. Um, that&#039 ; s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that&#039 ; s coming in because of the senior center over there. That&#039 ; s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don&#039 ; t, because we have other things to do. So it&#039 ; s almost a contact--they--a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we&#039 ; ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people--&quot ; why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?&quot ; okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we&#039 ; re weaving, and, um--&quot ; why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?&quot ; I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I&#039 ; m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in Indian country. But, I&#039 ; m trying to tell them &quot ; I&#039 ; ll let you know. I&#039 ; m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don&#039 ; t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I&#039 ; m there--we&#039 ; re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there.&quot ; I&#039 ; ve got a lot of family that&#039 ; s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We&#039 ; ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren&#039 ; t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --there&#039 ; s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we&#039 ; re there honoring our people. I&#039 ; m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don&#039 ; t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don&#039 ; t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they&#039 ; ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that&#039 ; s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I&#039 ; m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren&#039 ; t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They&#039 ; ve got to have something that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that&#039 ; s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven&#039 ; t had it since Covid. And that&#039 ; s another thing that&#039 ; s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it&#039 ; s on Indi--on mission grounds. But, to me, that&#039 ; s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria &lt ; sic&gt ; that&#039 ; s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You&#039 ; ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you--we--how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren&#039 ; t as-- LK: It was a-- DC: --progressive as LK: --Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn&#039 ; t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old--in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it&#039 ; s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I&#039 ; m saying. As being nomadic. We didn&#039 ; t have &quot ; a permanent&quot ; village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren&#039 ; t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you&#039 ; re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you--they--it was on their land. They, they didn&#039 ; t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri --&#039 ; cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that--it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you&#039 ; re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he--his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let &#039 ; em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the--that&#039 ; s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers--the ones that were in charge--they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that-- LK: Were higher, you know. DC: --hierarchy. So, um, I don&#039 ; t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept &#039 ; em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use &#039 ; em--I wouldn&#039 ; t--I don&#039 ; t use the word slave, but they--I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn&#039 ; t--they didn&#039 ; t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that--and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of the rest of them--they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from--that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don&#039 ; t hear that side of the story. That&#039 ; s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that--&quot ; Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn&#039 ; t the best guy.&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you&#039 ; re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn&#039 ; t--wasn&#039 ; t able to have--speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga -- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they sent me to Cal State--I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn&#039 ; t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they&#039 ; re--when they start talking to me, you know-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --get the words right. But I&#039 ; m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I&#039 ; m going to share--I&#039 ; m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it&#039 ; s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word &#039 ; şúukat&#039 ; ] You hear that one What&#039 ; s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah-- DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I&#039 ; m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word &#039 ; ˈíswut&#039 ; ] What&#039 ; s that? Ishwoot. LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word &#039 ; wiˈét&#039 ; ]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names--why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they&#039 ; re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word &#039 ; húnwut&#039 ; ] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It&#039 ; s a bear. DC: It&#039 ; s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their--for the children. They&#039 ; re proud of being called &#039 ; hun-what.&#039 ; They&#039 ; re proud of being called &#039 ; soos-kwaht,&#039 ; called--proud of being called &#039 ; whee-uht,&#039 ; you know, instead of just being called &quot ; cricket,&quot ; you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have &quot ; Tuk-woot&quot ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word &#039 ; túˈkwet&#039 ; ]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It&#039 ; s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; village, &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; village, &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that&#039 ; s right! DC: Okay? &quot ; Aush-woot?&quot ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word &#039 ; áşwut&#039 ; ] I know that&#039 ; s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that&#039 ; s an &#039 ; aush-woot.&#039 ; The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I&#039 ; m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don&#039 ; t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled &quot ; Heritage Keepers&quot ; ]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it&#039 ; s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It&#039 ; s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the--learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at--it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb--Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill--it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can--you could--you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not-- [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That&#039 ; s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I&#039 ; m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they--we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of &quot ; Oh my God, that&#039 ; s what came up. The ocean came up.&quot ; And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save &#039 ; em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you&#039 ; ll see the big hill that&#039 ; s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s one of their lookouts, and I don&#039 ; t know that there--the name of it, but it&#039 ; s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don&#039 ; t--I have the words to that song, that they had-- that they started there. But, I don&#039 ; t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They&#039 ; re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that&#039 ; s more--El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don&#039 ; t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas-- [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in this area. And that&#039 ; s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay--were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and come up, and go up there. You can visit that here--uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It&#039 ; s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s Sleeping Indian Rock. It&#039 ; s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it&#039 ; s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it&#039 ; s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can&#039 ; t build on it. You can build on--near it, but you can&#039 ; t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that&#039 ; s a blind--ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There&#039 ; s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there&#039 ; s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we&#039 ; ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell--my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it&#039 ; s called &quot ; Naqmayam&quot ; and I was saying it--first saying it in Luiseño, then I&#039 ; ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says &quot ; Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq &#039 ; ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq &#039 ; ataxmi heelaqal/&#039 ; ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu&#039 ; uk ponakilvoy/yu&#039 ; pan heth&#039 ; aan/no$uun toonavan &#039 ; ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!&quot ; Now, I usually sing this, I know. It&#039 ; s just--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s--I usually--it sticks after a while, I&#039 ; m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul&#039 ; s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul&#039 ; s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o&#039 ; clock, between 6 and 6:30, I&#039 ; ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I&#039 ; ll be--I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it&#039 ; s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened-- LK: [chuckles] DC: --because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, &quot ; naqmayam&quot ; means &quot ; listen.&quot ; &quot ; Toonquay qawiinga&quot ; means &quot ; from the rock on the mountain.&quot ; Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn&#039 ; t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know--and they published it, in that--in that--in there-- LK: It&#039 ; s beautiful. DC: --It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that&#039 ; s how long ago, with the language. And I&#039 ; m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with--for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I&#039 ; m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It&#039 ; s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they&#039 ; ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don&#039 ; t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It&#039 ; s taught in Luiseño. They&#039 ; ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don&#039 ; t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That&#039 ; s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don&#039 ; t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I&#039 ; m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I&#039 ; m right, you&#039 ; re wrong, etc. And it&#039 ; s sad, because we&#039 ; re all the one people, but that&#039 ; s the way it goes. You&#039 ; re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You&#039 ; re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it&#039 ; s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you&#039 ; re doing it pretty much on your own. It&#039 ; s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don&#039 ; t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You&#039 ; re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-22 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diania Caudell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Luiseño Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diania Caudell Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Art and artists Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacob Peirce Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alexa Clausen OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 2022-04-12 Oral history of Alexa Clausen, April 12, 2022 SC027-15 00:51:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. San Diego County (Calif.) Alexa Clausen Jacob Pierce mp3 ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.mp3 1:|15(8)|25(3)|36(2)|45(11)|62(1)|84(8)|93(8)|110(2)|126(10)|136(8)|154(6)|164(1)|173(10)|187(6)|201(9)|211(5)|219(1)|235(8)|244(2)|261(1)|273(1)|284(11)|296(6)|308(13)|317(11)|342(5)|351(7)|364(3)|378(6)|388(12)|397(3)|411(1)|423(14)|432(10)|441(7)|457(4)|465(3)|480(11)|488(9)|498(10)|506(8)|520(12)|536(3)|550(4)|559(3)|569(5)|582(5)|597(17) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/45c2cfd31ca6068f7c1bbef6263d29e6.mp3 Other audio English 17 Background / Starting Adobe Home Tours Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Alexa Clausen talks about her education and career and how that has led to her interest in adobe homes. Furthermore, Alexa Clausen talks about how her background as a historian for the California State Parks led to her interest in leading adobe home tours. Clausen also talks about different home tours in Southern California which influenced her to start Adobe Home Tours. California State Parks ; career ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; volunteering Adobe Home Tours ; California State Parks historian ; Education ; Interest in adobe homes ; Working while getting an education 33.9806° N, 117.3755° W 17 Riverside County 336 Previous career with the California State Parks / Contributions to Adobe Home Tours Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Alexa Clausen gives an overview of her career with the California State Parks and working in historic preservation and architecture. She also talks about her contributions to starting the Adobe Home Tours with Tom. architecture ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Escondido ; historic preservation ; historical society California State Parks ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Historic preservation in the California State Parks 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 619 Getting involved / Why adobe homes? Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this ; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Alexa Clausen talks about how she became interested in wanting to focus on adobe homes and looking for others who had adobe homes for tours. Clausen then gives a historical overview of adobe homes and their significance in society. Furthermore, she talks the logistics of adobe homes and safety and building measures. adobe homes ; developers ; historical society ; neighborhood ; tour Adobe Home Tours ; Appreciation for adobe homes ; History house tours ; Looking for adobe homes for tours ; Scouting adobe homes 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 1223 Expansion and evolving / Collaboration Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” &lt ; laugh&gt ; We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Alexa Clausen provides a look into working with other historical sites and societies for Adobe Home Tours. She highlights volunteers being essential to the business of providing tours for adobe homes. Alexa Clausen also gives input about her thoughts on collaborating with others. adobe homeowners ; docent guide ; homeowner ; North County ; Pauma Valley ; volunteers Appreciation for volunteers and docents ; Collaboration with other homeowners ; Expanding Adobe Home Tours ; Interest in adobe homes 33.1581° N, 117.3506° W 17 Carlsbad, California 1634 Keeping history interesting / Choosing adobe homes Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Alexa Clausen talks about how she keeps the history of the tours interesting while catering to different audiences with different levels of knowledge on adobe homes. She also talks about the process of choosing adobe homes which they use for tours. Del Dios ; historic preservation ; Osuna Adobe ; Pauma Mission ; Rancho Alexa Clausen heading adobe tours ; Audience ; Choosing adobe homes for tours ; Interest in adobe tours ; Keeping the history interesting 33.3034° N, 116.9814° W 17 Pauma Valley 2252 Gathering Information / Adobe Home Conditions Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Alexa Clausen discusses the process on gathering information about adobe home builds. She also mentions how they approach original homes and those that have been renovated. adobe ; architecture ; builders ; career ; original features Adobe builders ; Adobe home historical backgrounds ; Craftsman era ; Growing Adobe Home Tours 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 2735 Adobe Home Tours Legacy Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Alexa Clausen talks about where she hopes to see Adobe Home Tours in ten years. She also speaks on the importance of preserving homes because they allow visitors a look into the past. adobe ; appreciation ; homes ; information ; North County Legacy of Adobe Home Tours 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral History Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Jake Peirce: I&#039 ; m speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour -- among her many accomplishments -- and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don&#039 ; t mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I&#039 ; m happy to be here since we only have an hour, I&#039 ; ll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master&#039 ; s degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master&#039 ; s degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son -- I had him late in in life -- so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn&#039 ; t too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn&#039 ; t have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary&#039 ; s in elementary school, there&#039 ; s another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who&#039 ; s just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He&#039 ; s Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I&#039 ; m like, no, it&#039 ; s not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, &quot ; Hey, you know, Tom who&#039 ; s collection of books here, you&#039 ; re doing craftsmen?&quot ; Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, &quot ; We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they&#039 ; re all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; [O]kay, Tom, let&#039 ; s do a tour.&quot ; And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won&#039 ; t this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5&quot ; x11&quot ; piece of paper off a copier, and that&#039 ; s kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It&#039 ; s funny, and of course I was thinking, &quot ; [O]h, he&#039 ; ll get over it.&quot ; You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don&#039 ; t own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn&#039 ; t. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there&#039 ; s a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I&#039 ; m probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were -- in your role with the state parks -- you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, --and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you&#039 ; re saying -- what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn&#039 ; t as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He&#039 ; s second generation -- grew up in Escondido through his business and his family -- they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes -- although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning -- in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That&#039 ; s my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he&#039 ; ll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that&#039 ; s absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don&#039 ; t mind. I&#039 ; m very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved -- especially in the beginning -- how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren&#039 ; t just like &quot ; Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.&quot ; This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven&#039 ; t thought about it. Some of it was Tom&#039 ; s personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, &quot ; Should we call this one? Should we call that one?&quot ; but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, &quot ; My friends tell me you&#039 ; re crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there&#039 ; s just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I&#039 ; m really taking a guess at this ; I hadn&#039 ; t really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence --the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour -- so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn&#039 ; t as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn&#039 ; t just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it&#039 ; ll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour, and I think they&#039 ; re on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn&#039 ; t kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, &quot ; Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.&quot ; So, I really didn&#039 ; t think about it and it&#039 ; s not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they&#039 ; ve seen their house, they get it. They really think it&#039 ; s something special. That&#039 ; s just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, &quot ; Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.&quot ; ? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this -- like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections -- is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it &#039 ; cherry picked&#039 ; the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views -- and many of the adobe homes have incredible views -- and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They&#039 ; re bulldozed for these -- you know, it&#039 ; s probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they&#039 ; ve reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There&#039 ; s no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it&#039 ; s almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our &quot ; Gee, you, you&#039 ; re not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.&quot ; Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather -- Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father -- they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don&#039 ; t know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn&#039 ; t, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor -- and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere -- and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn&#039 ; t the only place where Adobe houses were built -- and are built even to this day -- as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, &quot ; We&#039 ; re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?&quot ; Clausen: Well, I think we would&#039 ; ve loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you&#039 ; re a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we&#039 ; ve been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there&#039 ; s a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we&#039 ; d like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn&#039 ; t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do -- the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are -- but we&#039 ; re restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don&#039 ; t have the facility to make it happen, whether it&#039 ; s personnel or whatever. There&#039 ; s always a friction, there&#039 ; s always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there&#039 ; s the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, &quot ; We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?&quot ; Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady -- Mary Del May -- she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I&#039 ; ll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, &quot ; Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That&#039 ; ll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.&quot ; So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don&#039 ; t let people stand too long. &quot ; Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; We&#039 ; re like, oh, we can&#039 ; t sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don&#039 ; t like, suggestions, they work, they don&#039 ; t, we&#039 ; ve tried some things. So yeah, I&#039 ; d say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you&#039 ; ve benefited from, as you&#039 ; ve done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that&#039 ; s really been honestly, and correct me if I&#039 ; m wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it&#039 ; s moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people &quot ; Would you have your home on the tour?&quot ; They&#039 ; re shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here&#039 ; s some information, which they&#039 ; ve developed a little &quot ; Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.&quot ; And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, &quot ; Hey, do you want to be on our tour,&quot ; came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It&#039 ; s always a little growing thing. I think you&#039 ; re right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that&#039 ; s incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like &quot ; I&#039 ; d like to learn more about that&quot ; or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we&#039 ; re always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we&#039 ; re lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out &quot ; looky loos&quot ; : people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in -- for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people&#039 ; s homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested -- either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists -- they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden -- not by any means -- but they&#039 ; re there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we&#039 ; ve tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: &quot ; The Romance of the Rancho&quot ; where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they&#039 ; re close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we&#039 ; ve brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, &quot ; You know, we&#039 ; ve always heard about Pauma Mission and we&#039 ; ve never gone. It was a chance to go out there.&quot ; Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there&#039 ; s an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It&#039 ; s fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, &quot ; Hey, you&#039 ; re an adobe house, you can be on it.&quot ; Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We&#039 ; ve had some very simple, honest homes and then we&#039 ; ve had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we&#039 ; ve had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that&#039 ; s always a consideration, although we&#039 ; ve had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we&#039 ; ve talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we&#039 ; re really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we&#039 ; ve had homeowners who&#039 ; ve come back and say, you know, now we&#039 ; re ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I&#039 ; ll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area -- that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John -- our webmaster -- sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you&#039 ; re 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just go get lunch. We won&#039 ; t drive out there.&quot ; So we&#039 ; ve tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven&#039 ; t missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We&#039 ; ve had people who, as they&#039 ; ve moved forward, say we just can&#039 ; t do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn&#039 ; t get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We&#039 ; ve gotten two thirds of the way and we&#039 ; ve had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we&#039 ; ve had previous homes on the tour again. We&#039 ; ve had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they&#039 ; ve made changes. They&#039 ; ve learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they&#039 ; re not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there&#039 ; s been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I&#039 ; ve done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we&#039 ; ve gotten really lucky. They&#039 ; re walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they&#039 ; d come back as we&#039 ; re developing the history of their home, or they&#039 ; d get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we&#039 ; ve had a combination. I&#039 ; d say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I&#039 ; ve been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties -- they were told about it by the realtor -- the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they&#039 ; re looking at. I&#039 ; d say I&#039 ; ve done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don&#039 ; t wanna say they&#039 ; re not important, right? They are important, they&#039 ; re historical in their own way. But it&#039 ; s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they&#039 ; re just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I&#039 ; ve been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let&#039 ; s say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we&#039 ; ve been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we&#039 ; ve had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they&#039 ; re still there. We&#039 ; ve had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era -- Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized -- how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century -- we&#039 ; ve found the Weir brothers and others -- they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there&#039 ; s some amber inserted glass that&#039 ; s still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn&#039 ; t recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there&#039 ; s something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we&#039 ; re giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that&#039 ; s usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there&#039 ; s been extensive remodeling, we still recognize -- I&#039 ; ll just use Weir for example because they&#039 ; re so well-known -- some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven&#039 ; t really had homes that were entirely gutted. We&#039 ; ve had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That&#039 ; s amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don&#039 ; t even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it&#039 ; s kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we&#039 ; re always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone&#039 ; s happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there&#039 ; s not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it&#039 ; d be wonderful to run it two days. It&#039 ; d be wonderful to raise more money, but there&#039 ; s just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people&#039 ; s understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we&#039 ; ve done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We&#039 ; d like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you&#039 ; ve created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can&#039 ; t speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved -- this is something that&#039 ; s stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there&#039 ; s a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we&#039 ; d all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they&#039 ; ll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven&#039 ; t touched on that you&#039 ; d like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information -- he&#039 ; s very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he&#039 ; ll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there&#039 ; s a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that&#039 ; s interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we&#039 ; re out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That&#039 ; s correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It&#039 ; s been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It&#039 ; s been fascinating. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview April 12, 2022 Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-15 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alexa Clausen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Community history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lucy Wheeler Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Cupaiuolo OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023 SC027-24 0:41:03 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Vista (Calif.) Susan Cupaiuolo Lucy Wheeler mp4 CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.mp4 1:|13(1)|23(5)|31(7)|40(8)|47(3)|54(11)|61(1)|69(8)|77(9)|85(8)|95(3)|104(3)|111(7)|120(11)|130(14)|140(12)|148(9)|158(12)|166(1)|174(11)|184(6)|192(9)|204(13)|213(2)|222(12)|232(2)|240(9)|247(11)|255(12)|263(6)|271(8)|281(3)|289(5)|301(2)|313(2)|328(3)|336(10)|367(2)|387(7)|401(10)|415(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7519142da692856f004bf07f963d4a93.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction about North County para-agriculture / Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo’s story The interview begins with an introduction to North County’s para-agriculture, which has been largely overlooked despite San Diego making up a large portion of the county’s agriculture. Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the life of her husband Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo, whom was called “Nino.” She explains that Nino grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. Nino did not have a farming background. Instead, Nino worked in the field of international marketing and worked in the United States and Europe for forty years. She also explains that Nino loved growing a garden in the Orange County home that she shared with his first wife. Nino passed away in 2020 at the age of eighty-six years old. agriculture ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Milan (Italy) ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture 235 Marriage to Cupaiuolo/ Purchasing the farm Susan Cupaiuolo recounts the early days of her marriage to Nino Cupaiuolo, where they lived in Michigan before moving to Orange County, CA. She also recalls when Nino first introduced her to the avocado fields in Vista, CA that they would eventually turn into their cherimoya farm, The Primavera Orchard. agriculture ; Cherimoya ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Michigan ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 456 Managing a farm/ Background on cherimoyas Susan Cupaiuolo discusses how she and Nino developed and managed a cherimoya farm. She explains that managing a farm is a long-term investment and that farmers may sometimes invest a lot of money, time, research, and other resources into their farm in order to see results. Cupaiuolo also discusses cherimoyas, their origins, and tips on growing and pollinating cherimoyas in the Southern Californian climate. Cupaiuolo had also brought a few cherimoyas to the interview, which she displays to the camera. Agriculture ; Cherimoya ; Ecuador ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Subtropical fruit ; Vista (Calif.) 850 Local resources Susan Cupaiuolo discusses local resources that she has found beneficial in her experience in farming. She recommends programs such as the University of California Cooperative Extension for soil analysis labs, as well as organizations such as the California Rare Fruit Growers, the California Cherimoya Association, and the Master Gardner Association for their workshops and other resources. She highlights the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department and the South Coast Research and Extension Center for their agricultural research. Cupaiuolo also stresses the importance of the internet for making research on farming easier and more accessible to the general public. Agriculture ; California Rare Fruit Growers ; Cherimoya ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Irvine (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Para-agriculture ; Research ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Soil analysis ; South Coast Research and Extension Center ; The California Cherimoya Association ; The County of San Diego Cooperative Extension ; The Farm and House Advisor ; The Master Gardener Association ; The United States Department of Agriculture ; The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department ; University of California Cooperative Extension 1047 Selling produce and relationships with customers Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the business-side of managing a farm. Independently-owned grocery stores were an important avenue to individual farmers like the Cupaiuolos. She also discusses other avenues for where individual farmers can earn revenue and connect to the community, and recounts their experiences at farmers markets, free tasting events, and delivering to customers directly. She explains that their experience working with customers in these capacities helped build relationships and loyalty. Farm tours also facilitated socialization within their community. Agriculture ; Business ; Cherimoya ; Connecting with community ; Customers ; Farming ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Socialization in farming ; Vista (Calif.) 1494 Research and record-keeping in farming Susan Cupaiuolo discusses record-keeping strategies for farming. Specifically, record-keeping was beneficial to the Cupaiuolos for documenting their blueberry harvests. She explains that Nino collaborated with the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program and the Farm Bureau and documented the blossoms, production, weight, soil, temperature, and varieties of blueberries. Cupaiuolo describes her role in blueberry record-keeping as financial and also explains the profit they made from selling the fruit. Agriculture ; Blueberries ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Record-keeping ; Research ; The Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program ; The Farm Bureau ; Vista (Calif.) 1835 Selling the farm/ Innovation in farming Susan Cupaiuolo briefly discusses the process of selling the farm to a new family after Nino’s death. She also discusses the importance of innovation in farming and explains that their farm was ahead of technological innovations in terms of the installation of an advanced irrigation system, solar panels, and a cell tower in the early 2000s. She recalls Nino’s artistic mind and speculates that his creativity allowed him to create these advanced designs for their farm. Agriculture ; Farming ; Farming irrigation ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Innovation in farming ; Irrigation ; Para-agriculture ; Technological innovations ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 2160 Advice to future farmers/ Agriculture economy Susan Cupaiuolo briefly offers advice to individuals who may be interested in starting their own farm. She suggests when buying a farm, it is imperative to have an understanding of the history of farming, the labor needed to sustain a farm, and the current economy and real-estate market. She further discusses the economy of individual farming, especially the competition farmers face against one another. Advice ; Agriculture ; Agriculture economy ; Competition in farming ; Economy ; Farming ; Farming advice ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Real estate market Moving image The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it&#039 ; s February the 23rd, 2023. We&#039 ; re here to interview Susan-- Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County--and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan--the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it&#039 ; s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it&#039 ; s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a--well, it&#039 ; s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small para-farmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I&#039 ; d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I&#039 ; ll do my best to--to share it. Um, I&#039 ; m going to call him &quot ; Nino.&quot ; He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I&#039 ; m setting that up as making sure we don&#039 ; t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s not the--the way it was for him. He had a master&#039 ; s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a six-acre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a--a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve found where we&#039 ; re going to retire.&quot ; So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it--it was--it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the--the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn&#039 ; t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons--Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include--before you even get started--the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research--this was in 1993--early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It--it took a big commitment, that&#039 ; s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error--grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it&#039 ; s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated &quot ; no&quot ; with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn&#039 ; t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They&#039 ; re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales--that&#039 ; s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading &quot ; Gallery of Subtropical Plants&quot ; and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the--the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that&#039 ; s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It&#039 ; s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It&#039 ; s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the--the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the--on the property, it&#039 ; s--it can throw you some--some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff--places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a--a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren&#039 ; t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be--be-- very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out--out there that--that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,--I&#039 ; m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct--um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is--is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like--we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There&#039 ; s a--a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There&#039 ; s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can&#039 ; t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it&#039 ; s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you&#039 ; re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they&#039 ; re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department--that&#039 ; s called the U.C.A.N.R.--is including--includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor--that&#039 ; s by county. And--and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it&#039 ; s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It&#039 ; s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer&#039 ; s Market was a consideration. But Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left finger). They won&#039 ; t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won&#039 ; t buy from individual farmers. So, let&#039 ; s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer&#039 ; s markets do have advantages--meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn&#039 ; t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they&#039 ; re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales--of sales. He--he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren&#039 ; t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and--and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They--they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers--I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) &#039 ; cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the--of the cherimoyas and so we--we had some--some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They--they sell to the public, but they would come and--and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there&#039 ; s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I--I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There&#039 ; s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re at home. And--and that&#039 ; s kind of like what it&#039 ; s--what it is to--to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it&#039 ; s so impart--important in farming and with the advent of the internet and--and computers, it&#039 ; s changed a lot. But, it&#039 ; s still a--a beneficial skill set, whether you&#039 ; re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for--for keeping track of--of information is monitoring the production of the--the crops, whether it&#039 ; s by varieties, where they&#039 ; re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in--in Nino&#039 ; s participation in the--the Cooperative Extension&#039 ; s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry&#039 ; s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in--and--I--I have a--a photo of him here, if you&#039 ; d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and--and count them, and that&#039 ; s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)--I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Now, what ev--other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that&#039 ; s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I&#039 ; ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin&#039 ; or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that&#039 ; s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino&#039 ; s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the--the family that I--I sold to love it there, and they&#039 ; re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s their issue. They&#039 ; re keeping it going, and I--I--I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it--when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that--that--that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that--that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a--a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the--in the county. So, it was always somethin&#039 ; , you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn&#039 ; t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What&#039 ; s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don&#039 ; t know. Robots? (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know! But--but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It&#039 ; s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we--what we do. The--I was really curious about--say more about how innovative--what--what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to--to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of--of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the--the tours, and wrote us a--a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That&#039 ; s great. Would--sometimes when we&#039 ; re driving in the freeway and it&#039 ; s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn&#039 ; t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it--it&#039 ; s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that&#039 ; s already operating, and that--that&#039 ; s what the young family did from--from me, last year. So-- Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is--that--that&#039 ; s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is--what&#039 ; s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm--wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that--that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It&#039 ; s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the--the detail and the--the labor intensiveness of it, um-- Cupaiuolo: Course, if that--that wouldn&#039 ; t all be fruit-less, if people didn&#039 ; t love the fruit. So-- Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um-- Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular-- Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader--Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, &quot ; I have this guy that&#039 ; s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that&#039 ; s all I&#039 ; m going to pay you.&quot ; And Nino said, &quot ; eh-eh.&quot ; (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn&#039 ; t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn&#039 ; t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a--phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up--the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It&#039 ; s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It&#039 ; s very desirable. The--We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you&#039 ; ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It&#039 ; s not for the weak--physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I&#039 ; m so appreciative of what you&#039 ; ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it&#039 ; s been my pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.xml CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-24 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Susan Cupaiuolo Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madison Teater Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Max Disposti OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. LGBT resource center nonprofit management leadership presence Stonewall OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 2022-04-26 Oral history of Max Disposti, April 26, 2022 SC027-14 00:54:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside North County (San Diego County, Calif.) Rome (Italy) LGBT resource center nonprofit management leadership presence Stonewall Max Disposti MJ Teater m4a DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.m4a 1:|21(7)|43(6)|53(15)|65(3)|75(4)|85(4)|101(11)|113(17)|124(11)|142(11)|153(5)|165(15)|177(13)|188(7)|205(7)|215(10)|227(2)|237(6)|247(10)|259(12)|272(1)|283(4)|293(11)|303(7)|321(3)|333(3)|344(14)|356(3)|367(14)|379(6)|393(13)|406(1)|417(11)|428(6)|439(1)|450(5)|467(10)|479(2)|489(2)|500(3)|514(7)|526(8)|537(11)|550(5)|568(9)|585(13)|597(4)|607(10)|624(5)|634(2)|645(8)|668(1)|681(2)|702(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/90bdb0d7c052243dc1d6c76100bad70a.m4a Other audio English 97 Growing up and education in Rome Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose them. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much. Max Disposti recounts his childhood and educational experiences in Rome, Italy. He also goes into detail about his parents and their education. Disposti explores the social climate in Rome during his childhood and starts connecting to different movements such as the LGBT, immigration, and human rights. activism ; affordability ; Catholic Church ; higher education ; LGBT ; Rome ; safe environment ; working class activism in Rome, Italy ; Childhood ; Education ; Family education ; Growing up in Rome, Italy 41.9028° N, 12.4964° E 17 Coordinates for Rome, Italy which is where Max Disposti was born and raised. 397 More on education / Early careers Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, &lt ; laugh&gt ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much. Max Disposti talks more about the education he received in Italy and then receiving his bachelors and masters in the United States. He further talks about his experience as an immigrant in America and undergoing the process to become a citizen. Meanwhile he was working different jobs and then touches on his goal to start an LGBT center. He leads into talking about the origins of the resource center. academic background ; bachelors ; LGBT center ; military ; nonprofit management ; Oceanside ; organized ; political science ; social sociology ; social studies ; strikes ; transplant Early jobs and career goals ; education in America and Italy ; Job opportunities in California ; Max Disposti's education and career background 33.1959° N, 117.3795° W 17 Oceanside, CA 843 The LGBT Experience in North County San Diego Disposti: It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos &lt ; laugh&gt ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Max Disposti talks about the LGBT community in North County San Diego. Specifically areas of Oceanside where there were communities that thrived. Disposti also talks about different groups within the community and where they hung out. He begins to touch on why it was important to him to start the North County Resource Center. community ; gay ; grassroot ; lesbians ; LGBT ; LGBTQI ; Link ; marines ; military ; North County ; Oceanside ; organized ; presence ; San Diego ; support ; trans ; transgender ; youth LGBT in the military ; North County ; The LGBT community in North County 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1471 Resources at the North County Resource Center / How the center has changed over time Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That's one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that. Max Disposti explains the services offered at the North County Resource Center. Disposti discusses how the center has changed and became more educated and aware of the needs of those within the community. assessment ; beginning ; church ; community ; family reification ; guidelines ; hybrid ; LGBT ; LGBT centers ; mental health crisis ; procedures ; resources ; safe ; self-esteem ; successful ; trauma ; violence Mental health services ; North County Resource Center ; Support groups ; Support offered at the North County Resource Center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1802 Challenges and opportunities of the North County Resource Center I would say challenges, but also opportunities. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And &lt ; affirmative&gt ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned parenthood of the community &lt ; affirmative&gt ; [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the means the energy &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and we will have to fight for them too. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit &lt ; affirmative&gt ; when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I'm really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Max Disposti analyzes the challenged and opportunities that come from running an LGBT resource center relating instances of both to the current political climate in the United States. He includes his experience in Italy compared to America in which things are handled differently, including the COVID-19 pandemic. commitment ; COVID ; institutionalized violence ; LGBT ; Planned Parenthood ; queer community ; trauma The challenges of running an LGBT resource center ; The opportunities of running an LGBT resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2191 LGBT police and sheriff training in San Diego / comparing local police training in Italy Disposti: I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the status quo &lt ; affirmative&gt ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for something that [they’re] living. I'm not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay, we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , it's just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing &lt ; affirmative&gt ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good relationship. It's just a parade. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Max Disposti recounts his experience training police in North County. Disposti also shares his thoughts on police in queer spaces. Further he talks about what policing looks like in Italy for the LGBT and BIPOC communities. fear ; inclusive ; LGBT ; policing ; queer spaces LGBT police trainings ; local police ; Police and LGBT interations ; Police in Italy 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2929 The North County Resource Center eleven years later / Joy as an activist Teater &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: &lt ; laugh&gt ; It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Max Disposti reflects on his time at the resource center and the important contributions it has made to North County. Disposti recounts the grand opening of the resource center as a highlight of his time as an activist. barrier ; encourage ; LGBT ; North County ; queer diversity Accomplishments ; Activism ; Growing and serving North County ; LGBT advocate ; Reflecting on the resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral history Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. MJ Teater: Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I&#039 ; m here with Max Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today? Max Disposti: I&#039 ; m honored to be here. Absolutely good. It&#039 ; s a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven&#039 ; t been able to go and see the light &lt ; laugh&gt ; &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I mean, at the center working, but we&#039 ; re all very excited. Yes. Teater: Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you were born, and what you do for work? Disposti: Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I&#039 ; m a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in 1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. Teater: Awesome. And what did your parents do for work? Disposti: Oh, my parents now are retired because they&#039 ; re 85 years old. They&#039 ; re still alive and they live in Rome, Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well. Teater: Well, that&#039 ; s awesome. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and some of your educational experience? Disposti: Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that&#039 ; s five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn&#039 ; t have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn&#039 ; t pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there&#039 ; s always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that&#039 ; s dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . So that&#039 ; s my childhood. That&#039 ; s who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I&#039 ; m in love with someone. I didn&#039 ; t want to lose them. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; so that&#039 ; s a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn&#039 ; t go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn&#039 ; t share too much. Teater: No, that&#039 ; s great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study? Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can&#039 ; t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there&#039 ; s always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you&#039 ; re gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you&#039 ; re in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, &quot ; oh my gosh, I would never make it.&quot ; These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn&#039 ; t really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn&#039 ; t do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn&#039 ; t need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I&#039 ; m still paying for it, &lt ; laugh&gt ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that&#039 ; s my academic background pretty much. Teater: Man, you&#039 ; ve lived such a fascinating life. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your career like before the North County Resource Center? Disposti: The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve anything, because I didn&#039 ; t know where this was going to take me. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . Prior to that, when I came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so forth. That was a very well-paid job. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift my resources, but I wasn&#039 ; t documented at the time. I couldn&#039 ; t really invest into school or nothing because I knew I just couldn&#039 ; t do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that&#039 ; s why I&#039 ; m very, not only sympathetic, but not many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point, the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It&#039 ; s just not the way it is anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community center. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn&#039 ; t have dreams of screwing people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that was honest that sometimes I told people, don&#039 ; t buy this house because really too big for you, is not gonna be a good choice, because then you&#039 ; re gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into unemployment. Mind you I didn&#039 ; t say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn&#039 ; t pay me. I mean, it was me &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it, but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many people that made the center what it is today. So that&#039 ; s how it brought to me. I brought those corporate leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are today or even more. Yeah, the dream&#039 ; s still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Teater: In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County doesn&#039 ; t really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or Hillcrest has. Disposti: &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn&#039 ; t wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they&#039 ; ve done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn&#039 ; t have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn&#039 ; t believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we&#039 ; re not doing anything special. We&#039 ; re just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn&#039 ; t realize at first the impact we&#039 ; re having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos &lt ; laugh&gt ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that&#039 ; s always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he&#039 ; s 22, so he&#039 ; s already grown up and he&#039 ; s a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don&#039 ; t exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven&#039 ; t been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . When people tell me, &quot ; Oh, I dunno, what&#039 ; s going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,&quot ; say, &quot ; no, it&#039 ; s always been like that.&quot ; We always been around. I say, we, even though I&#039 ; m a cisgender gay guy, because I&#039 ; ve been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say &quot ; You haven&#039 ; t looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.&quot ; I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn&#039 ; t the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we&#039 ; ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, &quot ; Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.&quot ; And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we&#039 ; re embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they&#039 ; re being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we&#039 ; ve been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren&#039 ; t, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it&#039 ; s part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don&#039 ; t wanna come to a point where I say, &quot ; Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.&quot ; Nothing else comes through when it&#039 ; s not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That&#039 ; s how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn&#039 ; t go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn&#039 ; t wanna live anymore. There wasn&#039 ; t just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn&#039 ; t have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Teater: No, it&#039 ; s okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I&#039 ; ll shift to maybe a lighter subject &lt ; laugh&gt ; for a quick second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource Center and how have they changed over time? Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn&#039 ; t have need assessment. We didn&#039 ; t know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, &quot ; Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?&quot ; they say that means it&#039 ; s needed. So, we&#039 ; ll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we&#039 ; re never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, &quot ; Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they&#039 ; re gonna shut us down.&quot ; Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we&#039 ; re like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you&#039 ; re serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you&#039 ; re not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, &quot ; Hey, I&#039 ; m an active fifteen year old person, I&#039 ; m sexually active with this person. Maybe they&#039 ; re at my age or a year older.&quot ; How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren&#039 ; t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we&#039 ; re also mandated a reporter, right. We&#039 ; ve done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they&#039 ; re dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don&#039 ; t agree with that, we don&#039 ; t let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they&#039 ; re invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That&#039 ; s one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn&#039 ; t afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can&#039 ; t find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, &quot ; Hey, help me go through this,&quot ; family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they&#039 ; re usually mostly social, like let&#039 ; s come together for an all queer and non-binary or let&#039 ; s come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we&#039 ; re creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We&#039 ; ll have to respond to that. Teater: Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today? Disposti: I would say challenges, but also opportunities. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it&#039 ; s a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it&#039 ; s happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that&#039 ; s why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they&#039 ; re left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they&#039 ; re being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn&#039 ; t &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And &lt ; affirmative&gt ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it&#039 ; s eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that&#039 ; s just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that&#039 ; s true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; While it&#039 ; s good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don&#039 ; t want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it&#039 ; s important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don&#039 ; t provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don&#039 ; t go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they&#039 ; re in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we&#039 ; re not here to judge. I would say that&#039 ; s why we&#039 ; re the planned parenthood of the community &lt ; affirmative&gt ; [be]cause it&#039 ; s an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we&#039 ; re not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they&#039 ; re in California. And we know that we&#039 ; re a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it&#039 ; s not here geographically speaking. That&#039 ; s the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we&#039 ; re still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it&#039 ; s tough. It&#039 ; s tough for a lot of people. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it&#039 ; s value our own existence, but for a lot of people don&#039 ; t have the means the energy &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and we will have to fight for them too. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit &lt ; affirmative&gt ; when it&#039 ; s actually through the opposite. I think that&#039 ; s the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it&#039 ; s part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don&#039 ; t even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that&#039 ; s being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I&#039 ; m really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Teater: Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+ community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received? Disposti: I&#039 ; m gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don&#039 ; t wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn&#039 ; t be there in my opinion. I don&#039 ; t have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don&#039 ; t like the status quo &lt ; affirmative&gt ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don&#039 ; t have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don&#039 ; t dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for something that [they&#039 ; re] living. I&#039 ; m not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I&#039 ; m always very clear about: I don&#039 ; t think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don&#039 ; t think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that &quot ; I&#039 ; m a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.&quot ; But the problem that they can&#039 ; t forget or separate themselves from the uniform they&#039 ; re wearing and what has represented for our, it&#039 ; s still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it&#039 ; s your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn&#039 ; t say it&#039 ; s a statement to my organization, even though I would say it&#039 ; s a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it&#039 ; s important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn&#039 ; t protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I&#039 ; m not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it&#039 ; [s] like, &quot ; Okay, we don&#039 ; t need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It&#039 ; s not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing.&quot ; Right? It&#039 ; s a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It&#039 ; s a different comparison. Of course, I don&#039 ; t live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family&#039 ; s there and they&#039 ; re still active. I definitely have a sense of what&#039 ; s going on, but &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , it&#039 ; s just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that&#039 ; s out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they&#039 ; re using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven&#039 ; t earned that spot. I&#039 ; m just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I&#039 ; m truthful. I don&#039 ; t beat the bush around. I&#039 ; m just gonna tell I&#039 ; m gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that&#039 ; s okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing &lt ; affirmative&gt ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it&#039 ; s very not conducive of a good relationship. It&#039 ; s just a parade. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don&#039 ; t feel it&#039 ; s very-- so I&#039 ; m sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Teater: No, you&#039 ; re good. I&#039 ; m right there with you. Disposti: It&#039 ; s such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they will think of it, but right now I feel that we&#039 ; re not there. They have to earn their space. And also let&#039 ; s remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn that. Right. Like in Hillcrest &lt ; affirmative&gt ; right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an parade. You need to work every single day. So that&#039 ; s my-- Teater: Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center&#039 ; s relationship with military members of the community then? [Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they&#039 ; re different, but they&#039 ; re not, but they are. Disposti: Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about &lt ; affirmative&gt ; worth&#039 ; s, and army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support its own people that live here. Obviously, I&#039 ; m not sympathetic about any choice of military that&#039 ; s military related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let&#039 ; s say the Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean, they&#039 ; re not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They&#039 ; re not doing-- There is not a direct impact and &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services. They went through &lt ; affirmative&gt ; health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their commanders, &lt ; affirmative&gt ; transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks because these are our people. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It&#039 ; s not my place to tell them where they should go. We meet them where they are. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; But definitely it&#039 ; s a different experience. I would say I met amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I&#039 ; m sure some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are and supporting the queer people around the world. That&#039 ; s my goal as a human rights and civil rights activist that I-- doesn&#039 ; t believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it but it&#039 ; s beyond the scope of the center. It&#039 ; s more my personal perspective. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I think we are all connected in so many different ways. Teater &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I&#039 ; m [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: &lt ; laugh&gt ; It means a lot. I can&#039 ; t believe it. And I don&#039 ; t look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we&#039 ; re[employees] twelve. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn&#039 ; t even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there&#039 ; s so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don&#039 ; t feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it&#039 ; s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can&#039 ; t imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We&#039 ; re not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it&#039 ; s not an easy thing to do. I would say I&#039 ; m proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that&#039 ; s so nice. During your time as an activist, and this&#039 ; ll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don&#039 ; t think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I&#039 ; ve been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don&#039 ; t mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don&#039 ; t [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn&#039 ; t survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you&#039 ; re on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can&#039 ; t pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it&#039 ; s hard to recollect now, but I&#039 ; m sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It&#039 ; s perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don&#039 ; t shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That&#039 ; s what I [want to] say that I know how important it&#039 ; s because we&#039 ; re doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it&#039 ; s a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That&#039 ; s what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Teater: Thank you. Well, I&#039 ; m [going to] stop the recording now. Disposti: Perfect. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.xml DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Disposti, Max. Interview April 26, 2022 Description An account of the resource Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-14 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Rome (Italy) North County (San Diego County, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Max Disposti Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Max Disposti Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madison Teater Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience LGBTQIA+ experience