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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
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Jacob Peirce
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Lizbeth Ecke
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5.4 2022-04-13 Oral history of Lizbeth Ecke, April 13, 2022 SC027-12 00:52:05 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Businesswomen Encinitas (Calif.) Floriculture Interstate 5--California Poinsettias Lizbeth Ecke Jacob Peirce mp4 EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|11(14)|17(11)|23(7)|33(15)|38(54)|40(105)|50(11)|51(68)|51(180)|55(7)|69(11)|74(5)|83(28)|90(58)|90(166)|103(13)|122(2)|128(15)|133(75)|143(7)|162(15)|168(12)|173(56)|173(155)|178(91)|178(233)|186(13)|192(51)|192(185)|195(13)|207(42)|211(37)|215(5)|226(51)|229(7)|238(16)|248(71)|248(188)|248(319)|256(6)|260(15)|267(9)|269(82)|279(3)|281(69)|300(2)|305(40)|305(171)|305(309)|305(433)|316(16)|322(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/20bc80c8465484930147a93d0aa89119.mp4 Other video English 30 Introduction / Growing up and childhood So, good evening. My name is Jacob Pierce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her childhood experience growing up in Encinitas, CA where her family were important to the development of the small town beach city. In discussing her grandparents role in advocating for Downtown Encinitas, the local history of the small San Diego city and the push back that came with it is revealed. Childhood ; College ; Community ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encinitas ; Family legacy ; Farming ; Flower industry ; Grade school ; Highway ; San Diego ; Small town Downtown Encinitas and early development ; Growing up in Encinitas ; History of Encinitas ; Lizbeth Ecke's experience as a child growing up in the Ecke family ; Local history 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 The general GPS coordinates of Encinitas, CA which is now known for its beautiful beaches and luxury resorts. 385 Inspiration as a woman in business Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from em’, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Lizbeth Ecke describes the work of her mother and grandmother in San Diego along with their accomplishments. Her deep dive into their history explains how she was inspired by their hard work. In addition to this, Lizbeth Ecke introduces the Poinsettia business that her family is well known for. Poinsettia business ; Professional woman ; San Diego State ; Solana Beach Presbyterian Church ; Tijuana ; Volunteer work ; Women in Encinitas Familial bonds ; Family ; Gender roles ; The Ecke family ; The endeavors of the Ecke women ; The experience of women in a family business ; Women in the Ecke family 32.7774° N, 117.0714° W 17 San Diego State University. Lizbeth Ecke mentions the university a few times as this was her mother's alma mater. 612 The Press focuses on the men / Supporting organizations Pierce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him. Lizbeth Ecke addresses why the Press focused on the men in her family over the women when highlighting her family's business. The conversation then pivots to focusing on her mother and grandmother again as she explores the organizations they chose to support and why. Business roles ; Family business ; Family roles ; Functions ; Spotlight ; Support Gender disparity in the Press ; Gender roles in family business ; Planned Parenthood ; Women supporting organizations ; YMCA 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 970 Let's talk about Poinsettias Pierce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: So, it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers wherever it was in the world. And when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower customers on my own. So, I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but you know, my grandfather's name was Paul Ecke Sr. In this portion, Lizbeth Ecke discusses her involvement and knowledge of horticulture. Her knowledge stems from her family business with the poinsettia's which led to her using her planting skills during her studies in Mexico and Germany. Even though she only has a minor in horticulture, paired with her degree in business she was able to really entrench herself in the family business. Lizbeth Ecke's expertise was useful on different board of directors which was a space mostly occupied by men. Bussiness ; Farming ; Flowers ; Germany ; Greenhouses ; Horticulture ; Mexico ; Paul Ecke Jr. ; Paul Ecke Sr. ; Paule Ecke III ; Plants ; Poinsettia ; Poinsettia Ranch American Forest Exchange ; Floral culture business ; Studying overseas ; Subject of studies ; Women working in horticulture 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 San Diego, CA 1229 Experience on the board of directors Pierce: You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you < ; affirmative> ; as a woman faced any pushback, any, any friction, from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience when she became chairman of the American Forest Exchange after her father passed away. In comparison, her experience on the board for the YMCA was vastly different since women had occupied this space long before her. Lizbeth Ecke also recounts a time when she was younger working for her family's business where a customer was demanding to work with her father instead of her. American Forest Exchange ; board ; board of directors ; Chairman ; frustrated ; status-quo ; UCSD ; women ; YMCA AFE chairman ; American Forest Exchange ; San Diego local history ; Women in business ; Women's experience in male dominated spaces 1807 Missing old Encinitas Pierce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience growing up in Encinitas prior to its current development. Despite her nostalgia, Lizbeth Ecke has fond memories of Encinitas but appreciates how far along the city has come. She also gives more background on how she grew up in the city as well as her siblings and the lasting effect Encinitas had on them all. Community ; Community Resource Center ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encintas Blvd. ; Horse ; Leucadia Blvd. ; Nostalgic ; Riverside ; road ; San Digueto ; Shepards ; YMCA Community ; Developing Encinitas ; Development in Encinitas ; Growing up in Encinitas ; Old Encinitas ; Small town 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2116 The Ecke Legacy in Encinitas / Going Forward Pierce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? The interviewer, Jacob Pierce asks about the Ecke family's direct influence on the I-5 and Downtown Influence. Lizbeth Ecke then answers and goes into more detail about her siblings and their history growing up in Encinitas. Cal State San Marcos ; charity ; community ; community resource center ; difference ; Downtown Encinitas ; Ecke ; Encinitas ; family ; foundation ; I-5 ; name ; park ; press ; YMCA Family influences ; Longstanding presence in the community ; Making a difference ; Sense of community ; The development of Downtown Encinitas 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2584 Proudest achievement / Closing comments Pierce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I don't know that-- Ecke: There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. As the interview wraps up, Lizbeth Ecke recalls her personal accomplishments as well as her family's. Considering the Ecke influence in Encinitas and San Diego as a whole, she goes into more detail about the papers her parents and grandparents left behind. Although it consists of receipts and lists these small details are important for historical purposes. Lizbeth Ecke also goes further into the process of what the Ecke papers consist of and donating them to Cal State San Marcos. Achievements ; children ; Ecke papers ; family business ; important ; mother ; papers ; proud ; ranch Documenting history ; Family papers ; Pride in their accomplishments ; The legacy of the Ecke family 29.8833° N, 97.9414° W 17 San Marcos, CA Oral History Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother. Peirce: My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I' ; m speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let' ; s start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, < ; cough> ; pardon me. I grew up in the same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life. Peirce: That' ; s awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that? Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn' ; t even go through till I was about 11 years old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things and we' ; ve gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time than I ever remember having. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things. But I can' ; t say that I remember much of any of that. Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying anything about that? Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man who owned it really, he didn' ; t like our family. And I mean, I' ; ve heard various stories about why he didn' ; t, the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don' ; t really know whether it' ; s the real reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people who fought pretty hard to say, let' ; s not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let' ; s put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns. And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn' ; t because my grandfather or grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town and they maybe just didn' ; t like each other, I don' ; t know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother, was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and, tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn' ; t want her help because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that' ; s a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn' ; t ever, she didn' ; t have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and, did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very big < ; unintelligible> ; [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but they also, they didn' ; t just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children' ; s hospital. She later on when us kids weren' ; t at home or were, you know, didn' ; t need as much attention all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter. She, I' ; m trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G < ; unintelligible> ; I can' ; t remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations, voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it' ; s important to give back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your community, it' ; s even more important to, to give back that that' ; s a commitment, an obligation really. And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that' ; s probably what I took from it more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn' ; t just talk the talk, they walked the walk. Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was, verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, " ; Hey, this is what we do," ; or you just kind of learn from example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don' ; t know that I think that it' ; s, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent' ; s generation and for my parent' ; s generation. That' ; s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that' ; s just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He' ; s also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he' ; s been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And when you talk about the family business, you don' ; t really hear much about them. I mean, some of that' ; s getting righted a little bit, now, but it' ; s certainly they didn' ; t ever get any, any < ; unintelligible> ; whatever they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. < ; Unintelligible> ; I guess kind of where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of support at that time? Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven' ; t ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have good relationships. So, I wouldn' ; t expect that any of us would get involved with something that we thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I' ; ve been involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their schools. I have, you know, I' ; m involved with, YMCA a that' ; s named after my grandmother. I was involved with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it' ; s probably how I got myself kicked off of the board, but, < ; laugh> ; the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San Diego, he, didn' ; t renew his contract and now there' ; s somebody new. So then, so now I' ; m back on the board. < ; laugh> ; , I' ; m all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I' ; d be willing to do down the road. So I think that, that what I' ; m involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around me. Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you' ; re not, it' ; s not like you give, give a dollar one day and then you' ; re just, you' ; re guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place < ; affirmative> ; and from stage to stage, you know, as I, you know, I' ; m a new dad, I never would' ; ve thought about all the things I do with my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it kind of takes you to a different-- Ecke: Well, this isn' ; t, it isn' ; t in your field of vision. Peirce: Absolutely. And that' ; s understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can' ; t see the full picture unless you' ; re in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a few questions on that. Ecke: Absolutely. Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields]. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn' ; t go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I' ; ve gone and visited flower customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn' ; t gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn' ; t, but, you know, my grandfather' ; s name was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother' ; s Pauly III and my name isn' ; t Paul < ; laugh> ; . So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother did, but we also made a determination, I don' ; t know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there' ; s a Los Angeles flower market where we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I' ; m chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty much all my life, one way or another, I wasn' ; t the face of the Poinsettia Ranch. Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands? Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So I' ; m still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what' ; s going on within that part of the sector of the world and I like it and I always have. Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can' ; t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire farm stresses me out just the thought of it. Ecke: < ; laugh> ; Oh, well, I' ; ve never run a farm. So that, that-- Peirce: Yeah, that' ; s fair. That' ; s fair. < ; laugh> ; Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with that. Peirce: What was your major, if you don' ; t mind me asking? Ecke: It was business. Peirce: Business. Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-- Peirce: Absolutely. You' ; ve mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I' ; ve been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn' ; t the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn' ; t have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn' ; t see, say that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn' ; t just playing along with whatever they wanted to do. Other boards that I' ; m on the YMCA board there' ; s been women on that board long before I was ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I' ; ve been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a high squeaky voice, I can' ; t < ; unintelligible> ; anybody absolutely wouldn' ; t do what I asked them to do. It may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that' ; s the only time we would' ; ve been up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don' ; t have time, you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said, I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I' ; m 14 or 15 years old and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he' ; ll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said, you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you. And he' ; s gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that. Peirce: That' ; s amazing. That' ; s really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how, how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can remember, or--? Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars. But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and we' ; d go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people' ; s way. But I mean, I was probably doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash, to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno,, 10 cents an hour or something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of California San Diego] is now, they' ; d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew, wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system, but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that' ; s why they moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can' ; t be wasteful, you need to think about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that you know, just because you have money doesn' ; t mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there' ; s other people that might need it more than you do, and it' ; s your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the understanding of that. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you' ; ve spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the ranch < ; affirmative> ; and when you were a kid, I' ; m assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural than it is now, not rural, but just less developed. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there' ; s things like that, that I' ; m nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can' ; t expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn' ; t, there isn' ; t a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I, again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went, graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we, all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So, I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a grocery store, the drug store and you know, it' ; s, somebody' ; s father that' ; s there or, you know, < ; affirmative> ; and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that. Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you, you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you' ; ve been living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it' ; s just like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure. Ecke: Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it' ; s, it' ; s weird because now I live in that, well, we' ; ve redone the house, but I live in what was my grandparents' ; house that my grandparents built when my parents got married, they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15 years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because when I was growing up from my grandparents' ; house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn' ; t go through. And so I was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that' ; s all houses. And just, you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia] State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of the reason that, my brother and I decided that that' ; s what the family papers should, should go. It was, it kind of made sense because we had that connection. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I' ; m, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I' ; m trying to figure out how I can word this-- right. When you, when you' ; ve spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you' ; d sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it' ; s something generally. I mean, I would say it' ; s a sense of pride to know that, that the, our, we didn' ; t, we as a family, didn' ; t just come here and do what we did without wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn' ; t anything for anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn' ; t anything here. So they figure out how to build a bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean, there' ; s nothing that there' ; s no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you' ; re gonna be part of a community, it' ; s nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it, yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there' ; s, and there' ; s enough things named after our family, there' ; s a park in Encinitas. And then there' ; s the YMCA and there' ; s various other things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we' ; ve done. I would say that it is very different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke, pretty much anybody in Encinitas would' ; ve heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know anything, but they would' ; ve heard the name. And, that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, and that' ; s not a bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn' ; t play the same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a family foundation and most of the money, it' ; s not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so much, we' ; re just not as big a, a part of it, which that' ; s a good thing, [be]cause there' ; s a lot more people out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported. Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have you mentored anyone in that regard? Ecke: No, I don' ; t think that I could say that I' ; ve done that. And I don' ; t think that I would certainly know how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I' ; ve been involved with any number of things, like the Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I' ; ve met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give money is just like almost anything in life. You' ; ve got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again. Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you' ; ve said that it, as the community has grown, you' ; ve kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you have going forward? Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I don' ; t see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother' ; s kids, my sister' ; s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody' ; s gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their twenties. So they' ; re still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer' ; s got too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I' ; m done now. And I' ; m gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don' ; t see us just, you know, retiring and doing, not being involved. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it' ; s in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I' ; ve raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son' ; s getting his PhD now and, you know, they' ; re supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don' ; t, I don' ; t know that-- There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I' ; m happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn' ; t always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: But I don' ; t know that there' ; s a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I' ; ve fought for and won on or something. Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it' ; s like, well, you know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you' ; re like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean? Ecke: No, none of those things. Peirce: Same here, so it' ; s, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was, what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys? Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don' ; t think much of anything ever got thrown away because you didn' ; t have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman' ; s job when, after he had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year' ; s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn' ; t seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother, my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn' ; t gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the most sense because it just didn' ; t feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if it' ; s just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of flower cost or whatever. I mean, you' ; re a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn' ; t have any, we were kind of the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn' ; t, I mean, we knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn' ; t ever know anybody personally who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it' ; s been a cool learning experience. Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn' ; t know what to do with it. I was just like, in my head, I' ; m like, please don' ; t throw it away, even though I know you didn' ; t, like, I was just like, don' ; t do it. < ; laugh> ; Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family, that you feel like I, we haven' ; t touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today? Ecke: I don' ; t know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it' ; s been a fun ride. I don' ; t think it' ; s over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this family. it' ; s nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband' ; s family' ; s from New Orleans and he' ; s like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has a similar feeling and it' ; s, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has a lot invested in me and that' ; s, that' ; s been nice. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don' ; t, I don' ; t think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now. Ecke: Great. Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you have questions regarding usage of this oral history. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.xml EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.xml
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Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview April 13, 2022
Description
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Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother.
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SC027-12
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Businesswomen
Floriculture
Interstate 5 -- California
Poinsettias
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2022-04-13
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video
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Lizbeth Ecke
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Jacob Peirce
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Encinitas (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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Lizbeth Ecke
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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Oral History
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Suzy Karasik
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Roberta Estrada
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.xml
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5.4 Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022 SC027-31 0:58:38 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Roberta Estrada Suzy Karasik mp4 EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.mp4 1:|17(8)|25(7)|32(10)|45(2)|57(5)|65(7)|74(11)|89(9)|116(12)|124(8)|137(2)|147(6)|162(3)|171(11)|182(10)|193(7)|206(7)|222(4)|240(10)|257(6)|277(6)|299(4)|309(11)|319(10)|329(10)|340(6)|386(7)|398(9)|420(10)|430(2)|449(4)|463(8)|473(8)|492(1)|506(10)|515(10)|526(15)|548(5)|574(10)|618(12)|634(2)|655(12)|666(2)|674(3)|708(4)|721(4)|734(10)|772(3)|803(4)|817(11)|842(6)|865(12)|890(13)|908(11)|916(11)|928(3)|944(14)|988(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/740a3fad6534f024735fd2e1671bc774.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and school years/ Indigenous identity Roberta Estrada discusses her childhood through college years. She was born into a tight-knit family, and explains that her mother was French and Native American from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA, but went to school in San Marcos, CA. She attended Alvin Dunn School, which is now renamed La Mirada Academy. Estrada explains that at the time, San Marcos did not have a high school district, so she attended Vista’s high school until San Marcos became a city in 1963 in her junior year. She also discusses that while in school, there were many more Hispanic children than there were Indigenous children and does not remember associating with Indigenous classmates at that time. She explains that she became more aware of her Luiseño identity later in life when her mother became involved in Indigenous groups. Estrada then recalls attending college and majoring in Spanish with a general education degree for elementary studies. She also describes her husband’s Pala background, particularly how his family acquired the surname “Estrada.” Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; College ; Hispanic community ; Hispanic people ; Identity ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Pala Band Of Mission Indians ; San Luis Rey Mission ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Spanish language ; Vista (Calif.) 618 Career in education Roberta Estrada discusses the sexism observed in her Indigenous community and in the school systems she taught in. She describes attending college and completing her student teaching in Wisconsin before returning back to Southern California. She explains that she attended Palomar College to complete more training before enrolling at California State University Bernadino and earning a Life Credential for teaching. She taught K-12 in the San Marcos Unified District as a bilingual teacher for thirty-two years. Estrada also discusses other aspects of her career as an educator, such as how members from the San Marcos community became involved in students’ learning and how she incorporated life skills into her curriculum. Finally, Estrada recalls teaching students who immigrated to the U.S. during the Vietnam War. California State University Bernadino ; Education ; Educators ; English language ; ESL ; Gender ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Palomar College ; San Bernardino (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Schools ; Sexism ; Spanish language ; Students ; Vietnam War ; Wisconsin 1276 Basketry Roberta Estrada discusses her involvement in basket-weaving. She explains that she has recently become involved with basketry by joining her cousin, Diania Caudell, on her school group presentation demonstrations. They also provide demonstrations to local universities about native plants. Estrada explains that they utilize processed plants from a company in Huntington Beach, CA for their presentations in order to ensure safety for their school groups. This ensures that are not handling plants that are sprayed with insecticides. Estrada also briefly explains an Indigenous coming-of-age ceremony that boys and girls participate in in the Luiseño culture. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Insecticides ; Luiseño people ; Native plants ; Pesticides ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; School presentations 1732 Family background Roberta Estrada reflects on her Indigenous heritage and on her family’s background. She discusses how her late mother was an elder of their tribe, and how she had always turned to her mother for guidance in learning about their Luiseño culture and extended family. She also explains how she has more recently started learning about her Indigenous culture, traditions, and practices. She discusses current family traditions, such as powwows and other family gatherings. Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2032 Pride in heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on the feeling of proud of her Indigenous heritage. She explains how there are seven Luiseño tribes in the area, and yet, the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe is the only federally unrecognized tribe. Estrada also discusses the San Luis Rey Mission Band’s recent attendance at the proclamation at the City of Oceanside meeting. She explains that this demonstrates that they are becoming more involved and making themselves more recognized in the community. She is excited to see younger San Luis Rey individuals become involved in the community. Community outreach ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2267 Land recognition and governmental involvement Roberta Estrada discusses the topic of land recognition. She explains that land acknowledgement is a much more recent component that has been added to events and presentations, whether in-person or virtual. She also explains how to present a land acknowledgment statement. Estrada also briefly explains the many obstacles that Indigenous tribes have to navigate through in order to be recognized by the U.S. government. Governmental involvment ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous lands ; Indigenous people ; Land acknowledgement ; Land recognition ; Native lands ; U.S. government 2473 Tribe's involvement in North County/ Identity and heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on North County. Specifically, she recalls her friends who operated Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. The ranch’s land was eventually used to build California State University San Marcos. She also discusses how her family’s tribe aided the community and respected the land, such as cooking meals for the community. Estrada also explores the importance of oral history, especially in communities where histories are not recorded. Finally, she reflects on her heritage, explaining that she feels prouder of her Indigenous identity after entering retirement. She explains how she has reconnected with family members and her desire to pass on her heritage to her sons and grandchildren. She also expresses interest in continuing her education in learning the Luiseño language. California State University San Marcos ; Community outreach ; Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oral history ; Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3158 Advice to descendants Roberta Estrada provides advice to her descendants. She describes that she and her husband taught their two sons to live their life as they wish and to respect their elders. She is concerned that respect to one’s ancestors is a custom that is no longer practiced, and hopes that this is a life lesson that will be observed by future generations. Estrada ends the interview by discussing her upcoming basket-weaving presentations. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Descendants ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band Oral history Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. April 6, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part--the best place to start is a little bit of background--where you were born--and let' ; s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I' ; ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in--at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I' ; m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we' ; re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i--wa--well, she' ; s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a--let me think now, what--third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, " ; No, that' ; s too close to Camp Pendleton. I' ; m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we' ; re going to move." ; So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn' ; t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, " ; Met a couple and they said ' ; Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.' ; " ; So, he says, " ; Okay, we' ; ll shift you over there." ; So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then--now it' ; s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to--we didn' ; t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that--the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, " ; We' ; ll get you in there." ; Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that--children--all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it' ; s been-- Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you' ; d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let' ; s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic children, and I don' ; t think I even associated with Native American children being--or picked out children as being--Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don' ; t believe I ever did. And I don' ; t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don' ; t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family--well, his fam--his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American--the last name of Estrada was because that--his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn' ; t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the--the owners of the ranches and that' ; s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in--no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s--their--my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that' ; s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or--well, actually there weren' ; t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k--refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and--or they would be put on--just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim--they ha--the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And-- Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be--the first thing that happened was that my father didn' ; t speak any--well, my mother spoke Spanish and that--because that was--they didn' ; t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn' ; t. So, it was, " ; Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English." ; And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to--and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact--but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and-- Karasik: She would be allowed-- Estrada: She would be allowed-- (nodding) Karasik: --to raise the children. Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission-- Estrada: Yes. Karasik: --Band. Estrada: They were--well, yes. They were married in--at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that' ; s when--shortly after I was--I was probably about late high school when I--when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than--than trying to--to say " ; You' ; re--you' ; re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that." ; She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then--and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft--no, before he passed away. Karasik: I' ; m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it' ; s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren' ; t perhaps quite as-- Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,--When you--If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, " ; Why don' ; t they let her speak. Why don' ; t--Why does he have to talk for her?" ; You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came--I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring--I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The--the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the--for--for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ' ; 70--let' ; s see, ' ; 68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ' ; 68. I--What I had intended in--When I went to college, I went to college at a--what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn' ; t have to pay the extra in--tuition for anything. And when I came--and that was an experience in itself, because the-- I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ' ; cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I--I said, " ; You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I' ; m a California girl." ; I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my--Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to--When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don' ; t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could--I' ; ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don' ; t because I' ; m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I' ; m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, " ; I' ; m a California girl, and I want to come back." ; It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn' ; t feel as comfortable--comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and--not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what--what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a--a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had--I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the--that. So, it just--and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it--were you more free then to say " ; Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations." ; Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I' ; m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson--and I' ; m not bragging--but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey' ; s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn' ; t, you know--you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te--You' ; re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the-- Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: --skills. Life skills. And we-- Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they' ; d learn how to measure. And we would--we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn' ; t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn' ; t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was-- Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were--I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything--I never had any problems with--and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like " ; you want me to tell you exactly what I' ; m going to be doing in every single minute?" ; " ; Yes, we do." ; " ; Okay. So, I' ; ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want." ; (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an--a--a--a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those-- Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: --connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a--at that time they weren' ; t moving out of California. I mean, they weren' ; t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren' ; t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did--yeah. The--in my later years in teaching, then we had the--the children from Vietnam, the chil--you know, that--the immigrants from there. So-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that--integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You' ; re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget--I forget that wasn' ; t their second lan--their first language. And I would--but I--uh, there' ; s just one little--one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the--well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to--well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Karasik: Oh, isn' ; t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her--in her twelve years, you know, she was, um--she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn' ; t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It' ; s a lot easier. Well, I' ; d kind of like to move on to--I mean there' ; s--we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you' ; re a--a basket weaver. I don' ; t know if it' ; s a--if there' ; s certain levels or if you' ; re a professional. Estrada: I' ; m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you' ; re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you--like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in--and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are--I don' ; t even know--they' ; re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty--no, they' ; re 41 and 44. One' ; s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn' ; t really become involved in--as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it' ; s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn' ; t feel like I had enough time. I--I know you were a teacher also. But I--And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, " ; Aren' ; t you done--Aren' ; t you off your job clock yet?" ; Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that' ; s when I' ; ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, " ; Come with me. You' ; re not working today. Come with me. I' ; m going to do a presentation at a school," ; or " ; Come and help me." ; That' ; s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it' ; s a little bit easier and we don' ; t use traditional plants at that time, because you don' ; t know if they' ; ve had any insecticide in them. You don' ; t know if they--you know, how safe or they' ; re going to have a reaction. And that' ; s the last thing you want if you go into a cla--into a group of 50 kids and have to do a--a--a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been doing now. Because we' ; re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools--I mean, Montessori--for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some--Well, we' ; ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it' ; s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the--the schools have been--wa--Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we' ; ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have--we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the--the juncus and the--and the deer grass, and we' ; re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there' ; s so much there. One thing--when you said " ; cane," ; I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It' ; s-- Karasik: Wha-- Estrada: --it' ; s the in--inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it--and it--it comes-- Karasik: Now, who' ; s they. Do you get it--? Estrada: It' ; s from--we get it from a company in--in--in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It' ; s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware--a greenhouse of-- Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it' ; s just safer-- Karasik: It' ; s trusted. Estrada: --to use with it-- Karasik: --a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I-- Karasik: I--yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said " ; Puberty Rock." ; So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an--your ancestors, I mean the-- Estrada: I' ; m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you--there' ; s markings. It' ; s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it' ; s been vandalized and so we' ; ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can' ; t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has--(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose--(laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: --now, so that you can' ; t go near it. But it was--the--Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that' ; s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s--sign that, you know, a-- Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It' ; s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don' ; t know what else. But the girls did, but-- Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset--she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that' ; s it, you know. I never really--before she passed away--never really found out what the " ; it" ; was or the " ; something" ; was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that' ; s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I' ; m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah," ; and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the--considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that' ; s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that' ; s when I would learn more. I' ; d say, " ; I' ; ve seen them before, mom, but I don' ; t really remember." ; She says, " ; Well, when we were at your uncle' ; s house in the valley, that part of his family―" ; And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Karasik: When you say, " ; I' ; ve seen them," ; you' ; re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, " ; Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize." ; And I would stop to think, and I' ; d have to either go up and ask them, " ; Have I met you before?" ; (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would--I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I' ; m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn' ; t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we' ; ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a--a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom' ; s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother--one of my grandfather' ; s brother--had all daughters. I think there' ; s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it--you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand--my paren--my grandfather' ; s fa--family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother' ; s family―I felt like she was a--a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother' ; s kids with this brother' ; s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that' ; s kind of what I' ; m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you' ; d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How--what a beautiful way to honor her. Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband' ; s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it' ; s always " ; I' ; m going to call Roberta, because she' ; ll know." ; Well, if Roberta doesn' ; t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word " ; pride." ; Was―because the--the times have changed now, di--but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I' ; m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe--where is that now, and h--how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more--more pride and feel that it' ; s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it' ; s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we' ; re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, " ; Oh! This is getting good." ; Because now they' ; re becoming more involved. For a while, it' ; s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we' ; re trying to―right now, I' ; m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in--more involved. And so, we' ; re working together and getting those―I couldn' ; t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went--After that, we went to the Inyan--Indian monument that' ; s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There' ; s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel--to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, " ; Well, we' ; d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that." ; Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they' ; ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren' ; t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it--they were not. And now they' ; re, um―they don' ; t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they' ; re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, " ; Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I' ; ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?" ; " ; Mom, I don' ; t think I' ; m quite sure on what to do with this." ; But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: That' ; s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it' ; s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it' ; s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it' ; s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you' ; ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They' ; ll say, " ; We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land." ; We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That' ; s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn' ; t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I--I find that in--in, just when I' ; m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I' ; m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we' ; re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We' ; re on Ku―we' ; re―well, yes. We' ; re not on Kumeyaay land. We' ; re on―we' ; re in between, now. It' ; s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr--tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it' ; s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There' ; s a lot of r--there' ; s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And--and is― Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a--for a period of time. And so, that' ; s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or--or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you' ; ll find if they' ; re doing any activities, you' ; ll find people that are recording that, so they' ; ll have a recording of what' ; s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the--the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we' ; re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was--would be available. Giving―I don' ; t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don' ; t say it' ; s yours if it' ; s not yours. Karasik: So, there' ; s a respect for the origin of it, and then there' ; s also a--a, like you said, a recognition or a--um, yeah. I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking of so many things. I--You said " ; tekua." ; Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It' ; s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who' ; s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They' ; re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They' ; re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there' ; s just so much there. And you' ; ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I--I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What--what are--what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for--for them, and that' ; s why we' ; re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there' ; s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it' ; s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteen-year-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I' ; m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it' ; s important to know that one of the things that--I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don' ; t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we' ; ve lived in North County. But it' ; s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch--Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch--and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there' ; s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, " ; oh, there' ; s probably a whole story there." ; So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they' ; re still here. So that' ; s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they' ; re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was--is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they' ; re--in where they' ; re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there' ; s a lot of orange fencing, because that' ; s all--the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom' ; s aunts worked and--and my mom--I don' ; t think my mom' ; s mother did but--my mom' ; s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I' ; m curious there, because I--I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went--Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather' ; s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would--would go up in that area. His―My grandmother' ; s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that' ; s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother' ; s mother and father, or your--even like your husband' ; s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It' ; s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And--and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It' ; s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that' ; s a lot why we' ; re doing it here. Estrada: That' ; s a big reason why I' ; m very into what' ; s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you' ; ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it' ; s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who' ; s doing this project, is on that land. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is--they are giving back. Estrada: They' ; re sharing. Karasik: Which is--is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this " ; site" ; (gestures air quotes) that we' ; re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) " ; dances" ; inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that' ; s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a--you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you' ; d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It' ; s interesting. When you said " ; dancing." ; So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like " ; American culture?" ; Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do--do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I' ; m thinking there' ; s not very many regrets. It sounds like you' ; ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the--on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband' ; s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, " ; Let' ; s go." ; Okay. I' ; d go and I' ; d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that' ; s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn' ; t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I' ; m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I' ; m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can' ; t even say it. Because we' ; re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in--into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they' ; re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there' ; s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we' ; ll see what happens. But they' ; re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I' ; m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can' ; t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I' ; ve got several little kid' ; s books that I' ; ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don' ; t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s really important. The--it' ; s--I' ; m feeling like in some ways it' ; s full circle. You know. It' ; s coming back full circle, and now a--a--the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it' ; s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, " ; You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group." ; And it ma--it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you' ; re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I' ; m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there' ; s anything else that you' ; d really like to say, but I feel like we' ; ve had a--a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there' ; s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our--your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what--what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don' ; t be so concerned with. Like, what' ; s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that--that honors your--your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, " ; You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults." ; I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to--to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that' ; s fallen away right now. And that' ; s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they' ; ve gone through. I mean, nothing' ; s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it' ; s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it' ; s not a―I guess it' ; s because it' ; s not immediately connected. Maybe that' ; s what it is? I mean " ; in bloodline" ; means nothing. Or how much blood―" ; quantum" ; does not mean anything. It means--what means something--what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that' ; s what we' ; re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that' ; s because of water rights. But the Califor--the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who' ; s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you' ; re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That' ; s beautiful. Who' ; s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we' ; ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don' ; t know if that' ; s possible. And I' ; m certainly wanting to attend and--and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That' ; s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn' ; t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we' ; re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word " ; crone," ; does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It' ; s an elder woman. And I' ; m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is--is very strong. Estrada: It' ; s very strong. Karasik: And that' ; s really so important. And that--I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your--all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro--Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much! https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.xml EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.xml
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Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022
Description
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Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
Identifier
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SC027-31
Subject
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Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
Date
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2022-11-03
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video
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Roberta Estrada
Contributor
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Suzy Karasik
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Roberta Estrada
Type
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Moving image
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
-
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Madeleine Meyer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jay Franklin
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml
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5.4 Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-026 35:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights LGBTQ+ activism Jay Franklin Madeleine Meyer Moving Image FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|15(10)|33(6)|47(4)|68(3)|81(15)|94(15)|119(13)|131(12)|148(1)|168(5)|187(1)|205(9)|228(1)|239(13)|271(14)|283(11)|308(14)|327(6)|341(5)|355(2)|370(14)|385(16)|407(8)|442(6)|474(11)|485(4)|510(13)|523(8)|540(16)|554(14)|566(6)|600(7)|625(1)|635(12)|653(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6bbcdb372d4f92f0e23c4484059a9d18.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction + Franklin's early life and education prior to CSUSM Jay Franklin reflects on his educational journey as well as the cross-country move he made that landed him back in California, where he was born, ultimately leading to a career change from cosmetology to academia. Cosmetology ; Education ; Military Family ; San Diego ; Tidewater Community College, Virginia Beach ; Virginia Beach, Virginia 220 Franklin enrolls at California State San Marcos for his B.A. in 2005. Franklin discusses his decision to attend CSUSM, as well as giving a general outline of his path back to the university once he had his undergraduate degree. Bridgepoint Education/Asher University ; California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; City College ; Higher education ; Matriculation Coordinator ; San Diego ; San Diego State University ; San Marcos 375 Finding Student Life and Leadership Franklin describes joining a campus LGBTQ+ organization, the stealing of the student organization's banner, and his encountering of Student Life and Leadership and the Multicultural Programs Office through that act of hate. Hate crimes on campus ; Hillcrest ; Inclusivity ; LGBTQIA+ ; Marketing ; Pride Center 508 Early engagement with the Cross-Cultural Center (then known as the Multicultural Programs office) Franklin discusses working with Multicultural Programs to gather resources for the LGBTQ+ student organization. Frankling describes the draw of the then Multicultural Center including its patrons and the space itself. American Indian Student Association ; Asian Pacific Islander Desi American ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Campus resources ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Inclusion ; Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán ; Representation on campus ; Self-expression ; Vietnamese Student Association 722 Franklin becomes a peer educator at the Multicultural Center in Spring 2007. Franklin recalls working as a peer educator at the Multicultural Center (Cross-Cultural Center), and learning about student affairs as a career. Activism ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Marketing ; Peer educators 876 Programs and outreach at the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin recalls being a " ; marketing machine" ; and peer educators working with their communities for outreach. Activism ; Campus community ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Identity ; Marketing ; Outreach 971 Understanding the under-served campus community. Franklin describes the allure of food in driving attendance to events. He also describes workshops dedicated to finding funding for student organization programming. California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Food insecurity 1070 Franklin's experience with discovering his cultural identity Franklin recalls his early childhood military family background and how that did not inform his identity, and speaks to how the Center assisted in helping him find that identity. Asian-American experience ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Cultural expression ; Filipino-American experience ; Identity ; Inclusion 1156 The Cross-Cultural Center moves to a bigger and more visible location Franklin describes the Center moving to the breezeway of the Administrative Building (then Craven Hall), and what being in that space did for the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin also recalls how the peer educators engaged students who hadn't been in the space previously. California State University San Marcos ; Campus activism ; Murals 1290 Food insecurity and demand for identity-specific spaces Franklin recalls when he was a student the issue of food insecurity on campus, and the need for a food pantry. Franklin also describes the growing demand for additional identity-focused spaces on campus. California State University San Marcos ; Food insecurity ; Pride Center ; Representation ; Women in Gender Equity Center 1437 Evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin offers his thoughts on how the Cross-Cultural Center has evolved and how he sees the Center evolving in the future, as well as how it coexists with other spaces.. Identity ; Marketing ; Representation 1582 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on Franklin's career Franklin explains the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on his career, and how it informed his future educational and professional growth. Franklin also describes the benefits and challenges of working in higher education in California. California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Higher education ; Student affairs 1712 Highlights from Franklin's time at the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin recalls facilitating the All People's Celebration, and working as a coordinator emergency hire where he evolved from a student to a young professional. Franklin also describes working on a mural near the Center. All People's Celebration ; Asher University ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Murals 1945 Franklin returns to CSUSM in 2009 to work for Extended Learning Programs. Franklin recalls working for Extended Learning and working in Student Affairs, and discusses working in Student Affairs during the 2020 COVID-19 Pandemic. California State University San Marcos-- Extended Learning ; Covid-19 pandemic ; Higher education ; Professional experience ; Virtual learning mp4 Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQIA students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I' ; m here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don' ; t you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family. Franklin: Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life, uh, let' ; s see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego. Meyer: Nice. So, what was your educational journey like? Franklin: The typical " ; Go to high school and you should go to college" ; . So I, I tried that route, or that was my original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, part-time, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn' ; t work out. And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I' ; ll never forget, my sociology instructor--professor--was sharing like how much they made. And I' ; m like, you make that? And I' ; m like, and you got your doctor whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn' ; t a good fit. Um, so I didn' ; t go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch of " ; WU" ; s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A' ; s and B' ; s and, and A minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary. And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you' ; re done with class, and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I' ; ll disenroll you with " ; WU" ; s, so, those are F' ; s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F' ; s. Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number " ; 30," ; my age was coming up as thirty. And I' ; m like, oh my gosh, it' ; s time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I have a great job doing hair, but that' ; s a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and go to college and get my bachelor' ; s degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a non-traditional student. Uh, I didn' ; t want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, " ; hey, number 262 in the back row." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller class sizes, and I, I didn' ; t wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn' ; t find anything in San Diego, ' ; cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So, fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and telling my counselor at City College, she' ; s like, " ; Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when you apply because you' ; ll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos." ; So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn' ; t wanna work in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor' ; s degree and was lucky enough to get a job at Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it' ; s like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University. And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they said, " ; Hey, you should apply!" ; And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos, Meyer: Everything comes back to-- Franklin: Totally, totally. Meyer: So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Franklin: I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+ community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, " ; Look, we need to have some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding." ; And I just, I just came, I, I wasn' ; t a, a typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I' ; m gonna say either that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen. And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I thought it was really jarring to be called " ; faggot" ; on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the background, Christian Coalition [of America]-- campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn' ; t get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, " ; Who do I go to?" ; And our student org was like, " ; Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?" ; I' ; m like, the university has protocols, there' ; s rules and policies, so we' ; ll just work our way up to food chain to find out who' ; s responsible for our safety and like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen? And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into -- So, that was my first encounter, was like, " ; Hey, what' ; s going on?" ; Like, our student org didn' ; t even know that the Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the student org to gain additional information and resources. So that' ; s how we encountered it. That' ; s how I personally discovered it. Meyer: So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway? Franklin: Um, I don' ; t, I wouldn' ; t say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like, as big as this room that we' ; re in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it' ; s refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like-- so, in that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and some students started coming out, and-- it was-- I, I wouldn' ; t say there was like any sway or anything. It was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs, but so does--the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA [Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I' ; m trying to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org [Vietnamese Student Association]. So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn' ; t say pushing the envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with students, saying, " ; These are things that you' ; ve paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit about the peer educator program? Franklin: Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I' ; m looking at, let me look at my pictures. Meyer: No, that' ; s totally fine. Franklin: There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn' ; t know that student affairs was actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like, " ; This is a job?" ; Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator-- Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure that we all shared the, the workload. So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that-- I, I wouldn' ; t say I was a lead, but I just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put out. It' ; s branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn' ; t look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks professional. Back then we didn' ; t have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own template that we said, okay, this is how we' ; re, the conversation was like, how do we make it look professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you knew, oh, that' ; s a Cross-Cultural Center event. Meyer: Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were, when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students? Franklin: Kinda outreach. Ooh, that' ; s a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing machines. Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own, identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren' ; t overlapping anybody else' ; s events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we could be strategic in our marketing efforts. Meyer: How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others find it? I know you' ; ve already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-- Franklin: How did it help me find a community? Meyer: I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to? Franklin: Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for < ; laughs> ; so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students that didn' ; t leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like, we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I' ; ve never applied for money before for student org. We' ; re like, " ; don' ; t worry, we can help you walk through this process." ; So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed. Meyer: What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh, underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space? Franklin: Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn' ; t, as I grew up military, so every two to three years would move around. So, I really didn' ; t have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience. But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my half-Filipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or cross-cultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their house. So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there was some students without their shoes on. I' ; m like, " ; Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that." ; So, I, it was a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center to-- it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it' ; s that small little conference room that' ; s as big as this space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the Cross-Cultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos. So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, " ; What' ; s going on in there? And how could I join it?" ; So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, " ; Hi! Welcome into our space! We' ; ve got this and we' ; ve got that." ; Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn' ; t know it was here, that meant they never visited Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn' ; t felt it on campus before. Can you recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to something you hadn' ; t thought about before, something just hadn' ; t crossed your mind? Some-- um-- maybe some issue you hadn' ; t realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you just hadn' ; t-- Franklin: The, the food, the-- definitely the food insecurity. < ; removing glasses> ; I' ; m, I' ; m not gonna be looking at my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn' ; t have that worry. I didn' ; t have that concern. That was early conversations of like, " ; Where' ; s our food pantry? Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos." ; So, for me, I thought that was really odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don' ; t have, like, a food pantry to allow students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then. I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there' ; s food pantries all around. But, back then it was like, yeah, we know it' ; s a problem, but that' ; s so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they' ; re like, " ; This is the Asian Center!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; This is a Cross-Cultural Center." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, " ; Well, where' ; s my center?" ; and " ; Where' ; s my center?" ; and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, " ; Where' ; s our center?" ; And, it just started, " ; Where' ; s the Women in Gender Equity Center?" ; So, because of the fun and the joy that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, " ; Uh, where' ; s my space?" ; And, so, that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don' ; t pop up and have everything all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San Marcos has done that. Meyer: Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need. Franklin: Yep. Meyer: What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers? Franklin: I, it' ; s-- Meyer: It' ; s a, it' ; s a hard question, yeah-- Franklin: Yeah. So, because they' ; re all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The Cross-Cultural Center is -- I don' ; t know if they would take the lead or, um, I don' ; t know. It' ; s a, it' ; s a central hub that-- and the first center that, it' ; s been here. Just because it' ; s been here the longest doesn' ; t mean it has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has been really important. So, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know if that answers your question. Meyer: Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah. Franklin: Once its role, its-- Meyer: There' ; s no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It' ; s exactly-- building off that, what direction do you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. It' ; s one of those, like-- oh, it' ; s almost like a innovation hub-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I' ; m going, I' ; m gonna dip back into the marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can advocate for yourself and advocate--. and that advocation gets you, it doesn' ; t get you a center, but it helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to leadership or to student leadership-- ASI--- and say, " ; Hey, look, where' ; s our space? Why don' ; t we have it X, Y, and Z? Like, we' ; ve been asking for it for this long." ; Like, it' ; s a, it' ; s a great spot to start. Meyer: I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped shape your outlook and your professional life? Franklin: Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn' ; t have known that student affairs was a job. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn' ; t know that this, I didn' ; t--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education. And I didn' ; t know that was even a major. And, there' ; s an entire master' ; s degree around student affairs, and I' ; m like, this is cool. I myself didn' ; t go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I came with a skill set that I would' ; ve already learned in the student affairs master' ; s program. I stayed at Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master' ; s of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBT-specific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there' ; s a student affairs professional career. I wouldn' ; t have known to actually work in higher education. And then this whole concept of like, you' ; re a state employee. Like, I didn' ; t-- like when I originally said, " ; Oh, gosh, I' ; m about to be 30," ; it' ; s--- " ; I need to look for retirement!" ; I didn' ; t know that working for the state of California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn' ; t exist anymore. So, like, private businesses don' ; t even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well, because when you' ; re a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to, you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets, apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I would' ; ve never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well. Meyer: I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there' ; s any like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about. Franklin: Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People' ; s Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master' ; s program. There was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of, Student Life, the leadership said, " ; Hey, uh, because you' ; re super engaged as a peer educator and you finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there' ; s this emergency hire position that we could hire you for three months or six months, but it ends at six months." ; There' ; s, there' ; s no, we' ; re--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer educators and you' ; ve been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came in. But the ones that had didn' ; t graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don' ; t know how many panels it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares. And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay' ; s square, or this was Stephanie' ; s square. It was really a fun experience, to do a mural that' ; s still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural Center, I' ; ve watched this mural move from office, or Dean' ; s conference room to Dean' ; s conference room, and it' ; s being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it' ; s just so neat to see, being a part of the start, that it doesn' ; t end, like, the-- I' ; ve left my mark, or the peer educators have left their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It' ; s just pretty awesome. Meyer: That' ; s really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while? Franklin: I, I wouldn' ; t say a director-- Meyer: Program lead or something? Franklin: Coordinator. Meyer: Coordinator. Okay. Franklin: And yeah, I like to say, " ; Well, the director, the associate director left on the--" ; of course, no. Titles mean nothing. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And-- that is not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don' ; t receive any state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I' ; m back in Student Affairs. So it' ; s like, really full circle again, like yeah. It' ; s pretty wild. Meyer: Yeah. So, um, I know it' ; s not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about directing Student Affairs during the pandemic? Franklin: Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We' ; re a unionized environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos, even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general don' ; t read emails and they didn' ; t know pick up calls from people that they don' ; t know. So, sending memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there' ; s only sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you' ; re doing, how are they engaging or finding a sense of community. So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific, engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit, helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual. Meyer: It sounds like you' ; ve always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you' ; ve been doing that since the first day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That' ; s really cool. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that' ; s all the questions I have for today. But, thank you! Franklin: That' ; s awesome. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml
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Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023.
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Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office.
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SC027-026
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs
Education, Higher
Human rights
LGBTQ+ activism
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2023-04-12
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video
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Jay Franklin
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Madeleine Meyer
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Virginia Beach (Va.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Jay Franklin
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Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Robert Sheehan
Interviewee
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Thao Ha
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml
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gang violence
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5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I' ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that' ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they' ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they' ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn' ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' ; lens, I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she' ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn' ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that' ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That' ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn' ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you' ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father' ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he' ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that' ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that' ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family' ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren' ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn' ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren' ; t, that' ; s something they didn' ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can' ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that' ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can' ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you' ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don' ; t think he has any--I' ; m not sure, that was a good question. I' ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it' ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren' ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they' ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here' ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn' ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That' ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there' ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it' ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn' ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you' ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that' ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that' ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there' ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there' ; s a dichotomy. There' ; s the Thao at home. And then there' ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that' ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they' ; ll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there' ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you' ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn' ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I' ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it' ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny' ; s not the right word, but it' ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there' ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don' ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there' ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you' ; re in the math club or if you' ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there' ; s fun in that as well, but there' ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you' ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I' ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don' ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn' ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you' ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad' ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he' ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he' ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who' ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That' ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you' ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you' ; re in a social setting who you don' ; t want to mess with, and who you don' ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don' ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can' ; t get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they' ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they' ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That' ; s how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn' ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America' ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI' ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America' ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn' ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that' ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I' ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you' ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you' ; re doing well in school. But those two don' ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I' ; m like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn' ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don' ; t know, dad. Like, I don' ; t know what you want from us. I' ; m sorry that we messed up. And I' ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I' ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I' ; m in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don' ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I' ; d love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn' ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn' ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don' ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don' ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don' ; t have to go to class. I' ; ll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn' ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn' ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I' ; ll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they' ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don' ; t know what I' ; m going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn' ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That' ; s it. I' ; ll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that' ; s it, it' ; s time to--" ; it' ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that' ; s when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We' ; re just happy you' ; re alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there' ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie' ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there' ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We' ; re like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I' ; m recounting this because it' ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would' ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There' ; s a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we' ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we' ; re running to the car, that' ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we' ; d already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We' ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that' ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don' ; t know if you' ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don' ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn' ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that' ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I' ; m like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody' ; s like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I' ; m like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can' ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I' ; m in the car backseat and my sister' ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I' ; m sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It' ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that' ; s when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can' ; t believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn' ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that' ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don' ; t want to, I don' ; t want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they' ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let' ; s just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn' ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let' ; s just end here. I' ; m going to trust the legal system. I' ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That' ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she' ; s super lucky. She' ; s super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There' ; s bullet matter, there' ; s bone matter, there' ; s tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That' ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would' ; ve had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That' ; s her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He' ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He' ; s like, " ; So we' ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don' ; t know how much mobility she' ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she' ; ll have her arm. We won' ; t have to cut it off and she' ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I' ; m lucky to be alive. I' ; m lucky not to have amputation. I' ; m lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don' ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don' ; t screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It' ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You' ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she' ; s freaking out. She' ; s like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it' ; s like, " ; Let me know if you' ; re cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody' ; s dying. And I was like, " ; I don' ; t think I' ; m dying sis[ter], I think it' ; s just my arm. But I don' ; t know if I' ; m going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can' ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It' ; s going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I' ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn' ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That' ; s good to hear. So, you' ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there' ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It' ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it' ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there' ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can' ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There' ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it' ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I' ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there' ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I' ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person' ; s life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I' ; m like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that' ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there' ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you' ; re my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She' ; s like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she' ; s like, " ; You' ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there' ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that' ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I' ; m just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It' ; s going to be at the college, and you' ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don' ; t worry, I' ; ll be there. I' ; ll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don' ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we' ; re so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I' ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It' ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor' ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor' ; s now you can get in and finish your Master' ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you' ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She' ; s like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that' ; s really what I want to do. I don' ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don' ; t want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You' ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you' ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That' ; s my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that' ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can' ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I' ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn' ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he' ; s like, " ; Just forget about us. We' ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn' ; t like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master' ; s degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I' ; m not going to tell anybody that' ; s who I was. I don' ; t want them to judge me. I don' ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don' ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn' ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it' ; s very full circle. So that' ; s where I' ; m at now. And that' ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I' ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn' ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you' ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that' ; s a really good question, because there' ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don' ; t need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it' ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who' ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It' ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It' ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there' ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they' ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don' ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who' ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I' ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they' ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don' ; t think that that works. There' ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you' ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that' ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we' ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we' ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that' ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we' ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it' ; s awful. I mean, let' ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They' ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we' ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would' ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would' ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there' ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I' ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it' ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it' ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let' ; s say there' ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I' ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you' ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you' ; re forty-eight years old. You' ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we' ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there' ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn' ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I' ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would' ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That' ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn' ; t like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you' ; ve changed, and you' ; ve rehabilitated, and you' ; re no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn' ; t necessarily violent, let' ; s say you--I' ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn' ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you' ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there' ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you' ; re probably going do your full time. You' ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I' ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I' ; ll guess I' ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you' ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it' ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It' ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don' ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who' ; s twenty years old, and she' ; s like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they' ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they' ; re like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don' ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you' ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That' ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don' ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don' ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn' ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn' ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I' ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that' ; s different from university, but that' ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let' ; s not discount it, given that we' ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we' ; re not in person, right? But we' ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can' ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I' ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there' ; s a financial benefit, there' ; s the social benefit, there' ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you' ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I'll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don't know what I'm going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That's it. I'll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody's like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I'm like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, " ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, " ; Let me know if you're cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, " ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She's like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she's like, " ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I'm like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I'm like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That's my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, " ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don't need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml
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Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022
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Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway.
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SC027-21
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Education
Gangs -- Texas -- Houston
MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program
Refugees -- Vietnam
Transitions (Program)
Victims of violent crimes
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2022-04-19
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video
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Thao Ha
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Robert Sheehan
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Houston (Tex.)
Oceanside (Calif.)
Vietnam
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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Thao Ha
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Tanis Brown
Interviewee
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Sharon Jenkins
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.xml
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5.4 Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023 SC027-32 0:34:26 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Sharon Jenkins Tanis Brown mp4 JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.mp4 1:|18(10)|47(8)|69(7)|85(1)|96(5)|114(2)|124(6)|156(2)|167(1)|176(13)|199(9)|222(2)|231(9)|245(8)|253(6)|267(7)|276(7)|285(6)|296(3)|306(11)|318(1)|329(6)|342(11)|351(16)|370(4)|379(10)|391(11)|405(8)|418(11)|428(1)|438(5)|448(14)|473(5)|483(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2fbd5c479eb53fc879b7df28dcab0e80.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood/ Moving to San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins briefly discusses her early childhood in Massachusetts before moving to San Marcos, CA. She grew up in Quincy, MA as a young child before her family moved to Scituate, MA. Her family lived in Scituate until 1971, when they purchased a home in Lake San Marcos. Jenkins explains that her father was a pilot and commuted to Los Angeles, CA for work. Jenkins was a high school freshman when they first arrived to San Marcos and she attended San Marcos High School. She explains that San Marcos High School was only ten years old at the time, and was a small school in the 1970s. She estimates that only two hundred students were in her graduating class. Jenkins also recalls making life-long friends in high school. High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Quincy (Mass.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Scituate (Mass.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 256 The community of San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins describes the new community of San Marcos during the 1970s. As a new student, her teachers encouraged her parents to sign her up for sports teams and other activities, which is how Jenkins became more active in the San Marcos community. She describes feeling connected to the community by socializing with friends at Friday night football games. Jenkins also explains that playing golf was a popular activity in Lake San Marcos. Football games ; Golfl ; High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Small community ; Small town ; Students ; Tennis 480 College education Sharon Jenkins recounts her busy life as a college student. After graduating from San Marcos High School, she enrolled in Palomar College and then transferred to San Diego State University (SDSU). Jenkins majored in business and administration in college. Jenkins also worked throughout her college career, working part-time while attending Palomar College, and then working full-time after transferring to SDSU. She explains that she took night classes when attending SDSU, and she would be fortunate if she made it from San Marcos to SDSU within a thirty-minute commute. She explains that her commutes were usually a much more difficult drive due to the San Diego traffic—even during the 1970s. Business and administration ; Commute ; Commuting ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Palomar College ; San Diego freeways ; San Diego State Univeristy ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students ; Traffic 700 Career in accounting and real estate Sharon Jenkins describes her career in accounting and real estate. She explains that she began working at an accounting firm part-time the summer after her junior year in high school, and continued working at the firm throughout her education at Palomar College. Jenkins then accepted an internship at IBM in San Diego and worked there for a year while in college, before accepting a full-time position at the company. She stayed at IBM until the early 1990s before leaving the position and becoming a homemaker. Jenkins explains that she later transitioned to the field of real estate after her second daughter graduated from high school. At the time of the interview’s recording, Jenkins has worked in real estate for seventeen years. Accounting ; Accounting firms ; Homemaker ; IBM ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Parenthood ; Real estate ; Realtor ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) 966 Involvement in the San Marcos school board Sharon Jenkins recounts her involvement in the local school district of San Marcos. She first became involved in the local parent groups, parent organizations, and the 1996 School Board Bond effort, which she co-chaired with two other individuals. She then joined the school board, and was an active member from 1998 to 2012. Jenkins also reflects on how she has seen the San Marcos school district change over the years. When she first joined the school board, eight to ten thousand students were enrolled in the district, and at the time of the interview’s recording, she explains that approximately twenty thousand are now enrolled. She also explains that the school board also has to tackle many issues, such as financial issues due to the lack of state funding. Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; School bonds ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; State funding ; Students 1239 Reflections on being in leadership Sharon Jenkins reflects on being in a leadership position. She explains that she enjoys working with her colleagues on the school board and its staff. She continues that San Marcos is has a great staff and the school board has its best intentions in mind for its students. She also found the opening of new schools and high school graduations to be a very memorable experiences while in the position. Decision making in leadership ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; Small community ; Small town ; Staff ; Students 1374 Joining the city council Sharon Jenkins discusses her campaign to join the city council in 2012 and the lessons she learned on the campaign trail. She also discusses the differences between working on the city council and in the school district. She notes that the school district was more complex and dealt with a plethora of issues when compared with the city council. She also explains that the school district and city council both had different needs to which needed attending. City council ; City council campaign ; City council election ; City council representative ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; School board ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 1628 The value of the city council for the community Sharon Jenkins reflects on the city council’s value to the community of San Marcos. She explains that the city council does its best to listen to its residents and push for local control. She expresses frustration over state and federal government asserting themselves into local governmental matters. Jenkins is also passionate about continuing efforts to fix and expand infrastructure in the city. Bridges ; City council ; City council representative ; Federal government ; Funding ; Infrastructure ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Roads ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; Small community ; Small town ; State government ; Traffic 1813 Final thoughts/Closing of interview Sharon Jenkins concludes the interview by discussing the importance of reaching out to others, whether that being staying in contact with friends in the community or reaching out to individuals in other districts and listening to them and responding to their questions. City council ; City council representative ; Colleagues ; Family ; Friends ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Representation in small districts ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Staying connected Oral history Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college ; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So, hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time, but there are some things about you that I don' ; t really know. So, I' ; d like to find out a little bit more about your San Marcos story. Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This--I' ; m excited you' ; re doing this. Brown: Good. Well, I' ; d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon? Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts-- Brown: Oh my gosh. Jenkins: --and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don' ; t even know how young, less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we moved to San Marcos. Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to school at that time? Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman. Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so-- Jenkins: Yes. Brown: --it was a new school. Jenkins: Yes, very small. Brown: How many students in the--in the graduating class, Sharon? Jenkins: So, I don' ; t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor' ; s side of the bleachers in the old gym. Brown: (chuckles) Jenkins: So, that' ; s how small we were. Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and-- Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes. Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast? Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn' ; t understand what those changes were. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: Um, I remembered it--I remembered feeling like it was very, um, --things were very scattered here, and--and not very busy. Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast. Jenkins: Right, right. Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about yourself? Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making--making friends that some of them I still have as friends today. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and, even though we' ; re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos. Brown: Wow. That' ; s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came here? Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that' ; s where my parents purchased a house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very good reputation. So, that' ; s another reason why he--he picked San Marcos. Brown: Okay. Oh, that' ; s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when it was first constructed and was highly touted as a--a kind of upscale community. Did you--did you notice any of that growing up in terms of--of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos? Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m--majority was empty lots that homes hadn' ; t been constructed yet-- Brown: Okay Jenkins: --um, along the streets. (nods her head) Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few--in fact, I don' ; t eve--I think I only knew one or two--other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me. (nods her head again) Brown: Okay. That' ; s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back in 1971 and during your high school years, wha--what were the big deals? What was--what was the city like at that time for you growing up? Jenkins: Um, I was--since I was new to the community--I didn' ; t have some of the connections that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, " ; Get her involved in something." ; And I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in--in things. Um, Friday night football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had. Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing? Jenkins: No. Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or-- Jenkins: I don' ; t know. I s--assume so. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs) Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos-- Jenkins: Yes! Brown: --to play golf. They had, what, an executive course? Jenkins: I don' ; t think they had the executive course then. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I' ; m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad selected there, too, because they both played golf. Brown: All right. Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me--started to teach me, um, when I was about nine. And, um--and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people--a couple kids at that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically. Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did--did you--you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that point in time. Where--what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school? Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San Diego State. But it was right around the time--actually, I think that I was going on campus to San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing--it took me much longer than two years, because I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North County, and I think a couple of classes I went to--one was in the--a middle school in Vista, on a Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an--off of Furniture Row. So, San Diego--so, Cal State San Marcos wasn' ; t here, but they had started to expand some opportunities for the No--North County kids. So, it wasn' ; t a lot of classes, but it was just enough that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego. Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at--at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college? Jenkins: Business. Brown: Business. Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time. Brown: Okay. And you said you were--you worked your way through college? You were working while you were going to college. Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um--after I left Palomar--I always worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a week. Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then. Jenkins: Yes. Brown: (laughs) Wow, that' ; s great. So, commuting to school--what was driving to San Diego State from San Marcos like? What--how--what was the timeframe? Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you know. If it was a class that ended at nine o' ; clock, then you could pretty much get home within thirty minutes or so. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even back then! That would have been in the, um, let' ; s see, probably the late seventies. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren' ; t as big as they are today. Brown: Right. Jenkins: But we didn' ; t have as many cars back then. Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in going someplace else? Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then--um, and then I started my junior year and then I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in Escondido. And he said, " ; Sharon, you--this--my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don' ; t you go see if they could--if, you know--apply for a job there." ; And that was the summer after my junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning, and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I finished college, I conti--started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that' ; s how it went. Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on. Jenkins: Very early. Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time? Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don' ; t know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that. And then--and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably early 90s. And then--and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids. Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How did that transition happen? Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board together. Brown: Oh, okay. Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I--I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things. Volunteered a lot in the schools. That' ; s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la--my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to do now? And so then a friend said, " ; Why don' ; t you think about becoming a realtor?" ; And I never gave it a thought. But, I said, " ; Okay, well, I' ; ll check into that." ; And so, I did that and it--it' ; s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I' ; ve been doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years. Brown: All right. That' ; s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what--what--what inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in San Marcos? Jenkins: So, I think being involved in--in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996 School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said, " ; Have you ever running for the school board?" ; which I said, " ; I' ; ve--No." ; And then, so then finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan knew well, was leaving the board and she--and she also approached me and said, " ; You know, you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools." ; And so--so I was on the school board from 1998 until 2012. Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years? Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have been--I don' ; t know--maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I' ; d have to go back and look at that. And now there are cl--close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from--due to state funding. But somehow, we got it all done. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And I think during the last, um--you know, during the last five years or so, my term there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I--I didn' ; t realize this until--until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization, there' ; s different priorities. And sometimes it' ; s a--it' ; s a school building cycle. Sometimes it' ; s a curriculum cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. Sometimes it' ; s a financial cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All--always--always focused on curriculum, but you--you pick and choose things to make things happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I--I--I now see what that very intelligent person meant. Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about--or a couple of your favorite things--about being in a leadership position for a school district? Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think--you know, we' ; re supposed to have the vision at a--at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it' ; s the staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos--both on a school district and city-wide too--has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn' ; t always get there as quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: I think also the staff and the--the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I--I find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school graduations are always great because, you know, it' ; s a huge success for the kids and the--and the staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the--the two school bonds that we worked on over the years. Those were--that brought such change to the community, both of those. And--and as an elected official, sometimes it' ; s difficult when you have to make really difficult decisions. But it' ; s also gratifying when you--when you realize, okay, I made the right decision. It' ; s difficult, but I made the right decision. Brown: And you come out on the--on the other end of it feeling really positive. Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brown: Yeah. That' ; s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city council representative and that comes with a whole ' ; nother group of--of learning curves and--and, uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s--what you were dealing with on the school board versus the city council? Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The--the school district had, probably when I started, maybe, I don' ; t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools. Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal with. I think the city is--just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are--you' ; re looking at different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less complicated than a school facility. Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council? Jenkins: 2012. Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city council. Jenkins: No. I was mid-term-- Brown: Okay. Jenkins: --in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting councilmember who wasn' ; t running. And so, again, I had a--a couple people approach me and say, " ; You know, you should think about this." ; And I said, " ; I know nothing about any of that." ; I said, " ; I haven' ; t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that." ; (both of them chuckle) And so about maybe--maybe about a year, maybe s--not quite six months before the election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say, " ; Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there' ; s a huge situation going on here." ; But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support, and I thought, you know, I can--I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you know, " ; Come back and talk to me whenever you need to." ; And so, I did it. Brown: Yeah. Were the--was the campaigning different between the school board and the city council? Jenkins: Um, not--not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at that point in time was also citywide. So, I had--I think I had some name recognition with the parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that--I think that gave me a leg up. Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jenkins: So, it' ; s about--yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same. Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been serving on the city council. So, I' ; d like to ask you--in that time that you' ; ve been on which is like ten years going on a few more years--so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are you--I mean--wha--what do you see as the most value that--that the city council and you, yourself, have been involved in for the--for the community? Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can' ; t always do what residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don' ; t realize--al--some of what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is--is telling us we have to do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may feel like that' ; s not the best thing for our community, but we don' ; t have a choice. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Or we' ; d be sued. Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would change or--or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future? Jenkins: I can' ; t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us, um--traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts to work on that. It' ; s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it' ; s infrastructure and--and--and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in that area and we' ; re working on it. We' ; re spending lots of money on it. I can' ; t think of anything particular. We' ; re--I' ; m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a--a big plus to the community to get that traffic flow. Brown: That' ; s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you an opportunity to just--if there' ; s anything we haven' ; t covered. I--I do have one more question that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my-- Knowing you for so many years, one of the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all the people that you' ; ve known for so long, which is, I' ; m sure, a growing number every year. How do you--how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos? Jenkins: Um, let' ; s see. I don' ; t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort to--to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to, when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, " ; Wow. You know, we really appreciate that, because we don' ; t--we don' ; t have access to that. And so, we' ; re glad to hear about something." ; Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And--and see them when you can. Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community in terms of keeping in t--touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it. Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that' ; s important too is, um, as things have changed in the recent years, I think it is important for--for future councils and--and to understand that even though we' ; re in voting districts, I think it' ; s important that we represent all of San Marcos. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Um, I' ; m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time. Listening is the best thing we can do. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And responding to questions. Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you' ; d like to share with us that we haven' ; t covered today, but you' ; d like our audience to hear. Jenkins: Let' ; s see. I would say that I' ; m just very pleased that I' ; ve been able to live in one town for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, " ; Oh, I just want to get out of here." ; But I' ; m glad that I' ; ve--I' ; ve been here as long as I have. I' ; m glad my daughters--one lives here. Her--her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that' ; s kind of fun to go back and see that school. And then my other daughter' ; s nearby in San Diego. So, I think being able to see them enjoy what' ; s going on here in North County--that, things that, you know, I enjoyed growing up. And they' ; re now realizing that--that it' ; s a good place. Brown: Absolutely. Jenkins: Yeah. Brown: All right. Jenkins: Thank you for having me. Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the North County Oral History Initiative. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023
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Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council.
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SC027-33
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Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
Public administration -- California -- San Marcos
School boards -- California -- San Marcos
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2023-02-02
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video
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Sharon Jenkins
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Tanis Brown
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Sharon Jenkins
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Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Sean Visintainer
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Rebecca Jones
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.xml
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5.4 Jones, Rebecca. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-034 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Jones, Rebecca San Marcos (Calif.) COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Women in politics San Diego County (Calif.) Rebecca Jones Sean Visintainer JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|18(6)|33(5)|53(4)|69(9)|86(11)|109(10)|129(11)|145(10)|172(2)|201(5)|215(6)|230(13)|251(5)|271(16)|298(10)|317(14)|333(8)|353(7)|370(8)|387(6)|401(3)|416(15)|435(6)|453(11)|492(4)|513(8)|530(9)|549(11)|566(3)|585(8)|605(14)|622(8)|643(5)|677(10)|702(7)|719(4)|732(12)|745(3)|761(8)|777(5)|790(7)|812(9)|826(11)|848(13)|864(14)|878(16)|890(10)|904(2)|919(13)|942(5)|963(4)|975(7)|988(9)|1016(5)|1032(7)|1055(7)|1067(3)|1082(2)|1103(12)|1116(12)|1129(11)|1149(14)|1162(14)|1190(9)|1203(9)|1215(7)|1228(2)|1244(11)|1264(6)|1282(15)|1299(13)|1317(12)|1333(2)|1351(7)|1369(17)|1385(7)|1399(16)|1414(16)|1427(7)|1451(13)|1477(6)|1497(18)|1513(10)|1532(2)|1546(5)|1562(2)|1584(8)|1605(10)|1617(2)|1635(11)|1656(8)|1673(10)|1685(6)|1701(2)|1716(9)|1738(5)|1751(15)|1765(5)|1781(17)|1805(13)|1818(10)|1831(3)|1843(15)|1855(14)|1870(13)|1896(11)|1913(9)|1931(11)|1962(3)|2000(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1997e3f42e3e9c4d984c36d5eded7c44.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of San Marcos, California Mayor Rebecca Jones, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, California State University San Marcos. Interview April 12, 2023 at the University Library. 0 50 San Marcos local governance Jones describes where the city's budget comes from, including property tax, sales tax, and via the ownership of property (thanks to status as a charter city). Jones also describes her priorities for her work and for San Marcos city government. local governance ; San Marcos city budget ; charter city 0 236 Structure of San Marcos government Jones outlines the structure of San Marcos city government, and how a City Council Manager government differs from a Strong Mayor model. Jones also speaks to building consensus, and what being a contract city entails, especially in regards to police, and fire departments. 0 569 Identifying needs Jones entails what feedback means to the act of local governance, how she solicits it, saying no, and thinking big picture about priorities and issues. Jones also touches on pandemic operations of parks and trails, supporting small businesses, and customer service. local governance ; COVID 19 pandemic ; small business ; San Marcos Parks and Trails 0 927 Local governance and San Diego County Jones speaks to the differences between county and local government, and how the City of San Marcos works within the county structure. Jones specifically addresses: mental health, SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments), North County Transit, Vallecitos Water District. Jones elaborates on transit - public transportation, car transit, and microtransit. Jones also elaborates on Innovate 78 and how the organization functions, and is tied to job retention along the 78 corridor (Carlsbad, Oceanside, Vista, San Marcos, and Escondido). SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) ; North County Transit ; Vallecitos Water District ; public transportation ; car transit ; microtransit ; Innovate 78 0 1499 Starting in politics Jones recounts how she became involved in politics, through interest in a parks issue and sitting down with city council and receiving encouragement from sitting members of the council. Jones recalls serving on the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, and learning about the process of local governance through that task force. Jones also speaks to being involved in the private sector in real estate and as a business owner. Jones also recounts her feelings towards a couple of development projects and how that spurred her to get involved in politics. local politics ; San Marcos Creek District Task Force 0 1820 Appointment to San Marcos City Council Jones recounts how the process of being appointed to the city council and the council makeup when she was first appointed. Jones outlines the difference between an appointment and an election.
 ; Jim Desmond ; Pia Harris-Ebert ; Betty Evans ; San Marcos City Council 0 2077 Running for election and re-election Jones recounts some experiences from her previous elections interacting with constituents and with a difficult election. Jones speaks to the emotional toll an election can have on a candidate, and how she participates in self-care. elections ; self-care 0 2629 Cycling for transit and recreation Jones speaks to her experience on SANDAG and offers her perspective on bike lanes and cycling to facilitate transit and recreation. Jones also speaks to different styles of bike lanes, motorist and cyclist education, and eBikes, especially in regards to schoolchildren.
 ; bike lanes ; cycle tracks ; sharrows ; splits ; eBikes 0 3051 San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force and North City Jones discuss the goal of the task force, management of the Creek, and development of the Creek District. Jones also discusses development in North City (San Marcos, originally conceived of as a university district).
 ; San Marcos Creek District ; San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force ; Gary London ; public/private partnerships ; North City ; Belgian Waffle Ride 0 3490 More development in San Marcos Jones elaborates on additional development in the works in San Marcos, including medical offices and a hospital, and the Discovery Road extension, traffic, and flooding. 
 ; Scripps Hospital ; Kaiser Hospital ; Kaiser Permanente ; Discovery Road ; traffic congestion ; healthcare 0 3844 Running for San Marcos Mayor Jones recalls the decision process of deciding to run for mayor, and speaks to being San Marcos's first woman mayor, as well as her mentors.
 ; Pia Harris-Ebert ; Hal Martin 0 4056 Business closures during the pandemic Jones discusses the difficulties small businesses in San Marcos encountered during the pandemic and supporting small businesses in San Marcos.
 ; COVID-19 pandemic ; small business 0 4244 The COVID-19 Pandemic Jones discusses what she and the city did during the pandemic to lessen the burden on San Marcos citizens. Jones discusses the city's rainy day fund, sending out small business loans (which were turned into grants), moving businesses outside, facilitating permits and bureaucracy for businesses in the process of opening, and advocacy to the governor. Jones also discusses keeping outside recreation open, nonprofit assistance, supporting schoolchildren, and mental health. Jones also enumerates how part of her job entails being emotionally available and supportive for constituents, and helping communities move forward from trauma. 
 ; COVID-19 pandemic ; business and regulation ; outdoor recreation ; American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) ; mental health ; trauma 0 4914 Other qualities of Jones's work Jones discusses additional qualities of her day-to-day work, including being a civic booster, reading and preparation, and empathy.
 ; Jeff Zevely ; Channel 8 ; Prohoroff Chicken Ranch ; Hollandia Dairy 0 5228 Women in politics Jones discusses her experiences as a woman in politics, including bias and harassment. Jones also discusses her podcast, SheEO, about elevating women, and Jones's advice to women entering politics. 
 ; women politicians ; SheEO podcast 0 5734 San Marcos youth Jones discusses her work at the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos and engagement with San Marcos youth.
 ; Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos ; Highway 78 flooding ; San Marcos Market ; American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) 0 6352 Next steps and interview close Jones discusses her personal political style, the next steps in her career, and the love she has for the city of San Marcos. San Marcos ; San Diego County Supervisor 0 Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board.
 ; 
 ; In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Sean Visintainer: Okay. This is Sean Visintainer and I’m here today with Mayor Rebecca Jones of San Marcos, California, doing an oral history interview for the Oral History Special Collections Project at Cal State San Marcos. Today is April 12th. We’re doing the interview in the University library. Mayor Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. Mayor Rebecca Jones: Oh, it’s my pleasure. SV: I wanted to start off just by asking you some questions about local government. And I think that it’s something that maybe is a little, at times, opaque to people. And so, I was just curious because local government can look really different depending upon the municipality. For people that are going to watch this video, researchers in the future, could you describe a little bit about how local government in San Marcos happens? RJ: Well, it used to be the great mystery. So, when I actually got involved with the city, I had no idea how local government worked. So, I tried to remember and put myself from that perspective as being just a resident and making things easier. And so, what we do, essentially, is we spend taxpayer money— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —that is from different sources. Most of it is from sales tax. That’s actually where we have our largest amount of money to spend for the residents. But then we also have property tax. And most people don’t know this but out of all of the counties in the city, I believe we are the lowest city that has the smallest share of property tax. So, out of every dollar we get 7.2¢. So, if you look at just that in itself, it really is very important for us to figure out other ways to actually generate revenue. So, we are a charter city. And a charter city allows us to actually have property that we own which is owned by the residents of the city of San Marcos. And all of that revenue that we actually have coming in—so Creekside Marketplace would be an example of that as well as City Hall—but all of that money actually helps augment the very low sales tax that we have. SV: Okay. So, I assume then you have to be very fiscally responsible. RJ: Very fiscally responsible. And so, anyway, our job as a local government is to spend your money wisely ; keep you safe which is, honestly, our number one concern in my opinion—it always has been—and then also making sure we have a good quality of life for people. And so, you know, during my time on the council, I always again, you know, try to remember as a resident what is important to our residents. And I actually—this is kind of crazy but when I am campaigning which, you know, I’ve won five elections now— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —when I’m out campaigning, I actually enjoy the part of knocking on a stranger’s door and knowing that I’m going to get some feedback that I might not ever get otherwise. And so, I think it’s really important for me to always remember that part of local government, who you’re serving, which is the residents of the city, but also keeping everyone safe whether you own a business, whether you live here, or whether you’re visiting here. We want to make sure that we have that as our highest priority and, you know, people can drive safely through our community, come and shop here. If they’re already passing through San Marcos, which a lot of people do, we want them to, you know, spend a little more money and enjoy themselves. So, just keeping all of that in perspective is always at the front of what I’m always thinking and part of what my leadership is and, you know, just having again a good quality of life where people love to visit, live here, and, you know, a good place to call home. SV: Mm-hmm. Can you speak a little bit to how the process of government works, the City Council, the other people that are involved, the Deputy Mayor, yourself? RJ: Yeah. So, essentially, there is a City Council Manager style government. So, you might hear about like a strong Mayor. It’s not that. There’s only one city in the entire county that has that and that’s the city of San Diego. But a Council Manager form of government, local government, means that there are five council people. We pretty much have the same authority. However, I can put anything on the agenda which I have done in the past. But also, you know, I work very closely with the City Manager. I don’t really have any extra authority. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There’s a few little things but nothing major. And so, there are five of us that really have to look out for the best of what’s going on in the community. And we actually started districts back in 2018 and that actually changed things a bit, because that was the first time where we had councilmembers that were working specifically and being elected specifically in one area of the city. So, we have four districts and I’m at-large, so I’m elected by the entire city. And so, each one of us, you know, we have things that are important to us. We bring them forward. And then we try to get a consensus on them. My job is to make sure we’re all getting along— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —making sure that everyone’s voice is heard, and then also making sure that, you know, we always are remembering, even if you’re not representing technically District 1, for instance, that really District 2, 3, and 4 also matter. And, you know, we only have a certain amount of money, and we really need to make sure that we’re, you know, spending money where the greatest need is but also not just focusing on one part of the city. SV: Yeah. You spoke about consensus building, and I think that’s really interesting since it seems like a lot of decision making has to be shared decision making in San Marcos. How do you go about building consensus? RJ: Well, the biggest, most important thing, in my opinion, is not being political. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, once you bring political parties into it, you really just spoil everything, to be honest. And so, my job has always been as I’ve seen it is to be apolitical, for the most part. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then also making sure that we are, you know, again spending money wisely and, you know, really addressing all of the needs and the wishes in the community. And making sure that everyone feels that they’re part of the city is also good, you know. It’s doing well. It’s safe. It’s very important for everyone, like I said, to be safe. I think that has always been super important but even more now than ever because there are a lot of people that don’t feel safe. You know, our world has changed. Laws are not the same that they used to be. And so, it’s really important to make sure that, again, your funding, your fire department, and then also your sheriff deputies—we are a contract city, which let me speak to that for just one moment. SV: Sure. RJ: I’ve had a lot of people during, you know, the downturn in the economy and, you know, during a lot of political things that have happened, saying to me, “Should we have our own police force?” Well, we actually still are one of the cities that has the lowest crime rate in the entire county. And so, that’s an important thing. Are we—what is the need? What is the problem? And so, you know, starting our own department would be very expensive, probably $3-4 million dollars. And, if it’s not broken, why fix it? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, we actually are very lucky that we have some great captains that have come in. We have them for about two or three years, max. But they always end up being the cream of the crop. They end up moving on and actually being maybe an under-Sheriff or, you know, an assistant Sheriff. And so, you know, we really have had some great, you know, leaders in our Sheriff department. But a lot of people like to come back to our city. They might come here as a young Deputy, move on, and then they like to come back because it is a good place. We do have an excellent relationship with them, with the City Council and the Sheriff Department. And so, I think that really is very telling that, again, back to “if it’s not broken, why try to fix it when you’re doing very well.” And that’s, you know, one of the things that I think you do need to always keep in mind is, when things are going well, pay attention to what actually is working. You don’t have to change everything just for the sake of changing it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But you also don’t need to have things that you look at and say, “Well, we’ve been doing it that way twenty years, the same way, and it doesn’t work.” That’s when you need to pay attention. So, anyway, I’m very happy with our sheriff deputies and then also our fire department too, because they really do bring a sense of wellbeing to our community. SV: Yeah. We had to call the fire department— RJ: Oh no! SV: —not too long ago. They responded very promptly. They— RJ: Good. SV: —were wonderful. RJ: Okay! Well, that’s good to know. SV: So, we were very happy with how they did. RJ: Yeah. Good. SV: So, you talked about identifying change and maybe not needing change for the purpose of making change. RJ: Right. Yeah. That’s it in a nutshell. SV: I’m a little bit—I was curious how you identify need. So, it’s important to see what doesn’t need to be changed. But how do you go about recognizing where there is a need? RJ: Well, a lot of it has to do with feedback, to be honest. I mean, really, if you see something that maybe isn’t going as well as you had hoped, I mean a lot of it has to do with how people are feeling in the community. Do they feel like their voices are being heard? And their voice is being heard doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re getting everything that they want. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Sometimes, you have to say no. And, you know, that’s the big picture. We have nearly 100,000 people and we have—you know, that live here full-time, and we’ve got about 40,000 students that are coming in, that go to CSU, to Palomar College and all of our other higher learning institutions. It’s a lot of people. That’s really about 140,000 people that are, you know, coming into our city every day, whether they live here full-time or not. You know, you have to figure out how you serve them. So, again, you know, are you providing opportunities for them to actually enjoy themselves, have recreation. You know, we are actually known for our parks, which I think is really important at keeping people out and active. And, you know, during the pandemic for instance, many of the cities were closing their trails and their parks. We followed the health orders, but we kept our trails open, and we kept our parks, for the most part, open. We did close our climbing structures and that sort of thing. But we always felt that it was very important to keep people out and active and having those opportunities because mental well-being is important in a community. But then, also having opportunities for people to open businesses. And you know, one of the things that I’ve been talking about for years—and this year it is our first time ; we’re actually calling it one of our goals— and that’s concierge service, that is the customer experience because the customers are the community. And then, also, the business owners, when they come into City Hall, do they feel welcomed? Do they feel like it’s easy for them? They get the support that they need to open a business. Or, if they’re making changes to their property or something like that, are we doing everything we can? And, again, do they have that concierge experience? And so, we’re doing a lot of different things. We actually are just launching something in the next couple of weeks that will help people understand more about conditional use permits and opening businesses and finding out where their dream can come true of opening a business in the city and where it’s actually available to already open pretty easily, or where it might take a little more work on their end. And so, you know, we just are trying to always make that experience a little bit better. And, you know, I’m really proud of all the work that we’ve done since I’ve been on the council. This is my 17th year on the city council. And so, it’s been a long time. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I remember when I first joined the council, I was the only woman at the time. And I remember saying “Well, you know it would be great if we had good customer service.” And at the time, that did not go over very well (Sean chuckles). There was this “Well, what is that all about?” And, you know, now if you look forward, you know, to where we are today and how important that is to us, we’ve changed a lot. And so, you know, again, changing things that you identify as having issues and it’s not just what I think. A lot of it really does have to do with getting feedback from our community. SV: Mm-hmm. How do you solicit feedback? RJ: Well, I try to make as many—myself—as available as possible. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier about, you know, being available. This is a full-time job. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It could happen in a grocery store. It could be happening at the park. Wherever I am, I know that it is important for me to be available. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, Chamber of Commerce events. Really anywhere is a way. I have a very open-door policy, emails, social media, even though I don’t love social media. It does offer a way for people to connect with me. And so, I think, again, that is really important. You know, and then my cell phone. I have it on my cards. I give it to everyone. I have a lot of people that just reach out to me and say, “You know what? I met you at this event. You gave me your card because I asked for it. I didn’t really feel comfortable discussing this with you. But here’s what I’m thinking.” And I think that is, in itself, being a mayor of the people. Being available is so important. And, again, you know back to the point that I made a little earlier as well, and that is being as apolitical as possible. I really do believe that that’s the best way that you can serve your community. Not making anyone feel left out and bringing everyone together and being that consensus builder is really important. So, I work very wholeheartedly and very diligently at doing that. SV: Yeah. So, you’re pretty much always on duty. RJ: I am. SV: Yeah. RJ: I am which, you know, makes it difficult. It is a hard job— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to do, you know, pretty much all day every day. But, you know, I have to say I look around the city and I do have to pinch myself sometimes, thinking “You know, I was a part of that.” And “Oh, I was a part of that.” I mean, I really am proud of what our community has become. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, and we really have grown significantly. We are a college town. And then, you know, we’ve really done a good job, I think, at juggling following state mandates, making sure, again you know, our community is a good place to call home, also to do business in. You know, it really encompasses a lot of different things. But I’ve been very intentional about, you know, making the things that are important to our residents important to me as well. SV: Mm-hmm. Could you talk a little bit about how the city government functions within the larger context of, I guess, the county? RJ: Oh yeah. SV: You know, how the different municipalities interact and then how the county government as well, functions with the city. RJ: So, all mental health is handled through the county. That’s probably the biggest difference of the county and then cities. So, there are 18 cities plus the county. And then what we have is several different, you know, regional groups that we are, you know, part of. So, one being SANDAG which is mainly transportation. And then you’ve got also North County Transit which is for North County. And it’s our transit operator. And so, and then there’s like the water—we don’t actually have our own water department. So, Vallecitos Water District handles that. We are a little different than some cities. Like the city of Carlsbad, they also serve the water as well. But we don’t do that. You know, just really the biggest thing is when we’re on a board together, you have to wear a regional hat. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You have to figure out—because we don’t work independently as silos. We do work together. You know, when you look at transportation in itself, you know a lot of people drive cars, about 97% of the county, about only 2-3% honestly actually use transit. It’s not a system that actually runs often enough for it to be, you know, serving most people for their lives. Plus, a lot of people have lifestyles that really it doesn’t fit within their lifestyles. But then there are a lot of people—well, not a lot, but the people that do use public transit, they really do rely on it. So, we need to figure out how to serve everyone. And so, you know, is there a possibility of having a transit system that actually can attract more riders? I believe so. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But it also relies on people making that shift. We need to make sure it’s safe. There is a lot of people that believe that only people that are homeless ride on public transit. That’s not the case. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Though there are some. I’m not going to pretend that there isn’t. There definitely are. But how do we make it more meaningful and easier for people to use it? So, we do need a balanced transportation system like I said. And that’s not punishing car drivers and trying to force them out of their cars. It’s not going to happen. Many people, especially people I think with kids, really rely on that, you know, getting their kids where they need to go. And I, you know, my kids—I have, well, I’ll just give you an example. I had a soccer player and she played competitive soccer, my daughter. And then my son was a surfer. And so, two very, very different, you know, life sorts of things that they like to do. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, for me, I was always driving. I was always driving, you know, a big SUV because usually I was like “Hey, you know what? I’ll pick up your kids too.” So, you know, for practices and all of that for my daughter, I did a lot of carpooling. With my son, not so much because he wanted to go, you know, when he wanted to go. So, you know, I’d go and try to run errands while he was at the beach. And then I’d go back and pick him up. So, you know, a lot of different lifestyles have different needs. And, you know, so that’s one of the things that I always try to mention when I’m on that SANDAG committee. I’m on the Board of Directors as Mayor. And I try to say, “Remember. Let’s not forget about, you know, the parents. Let’s not forget about our retirees. We really do need a transportation program that fits everyone’s needs.” And it is tricky. But I think it can be done. But our new regional plan, I think that it really does punish car drivers in a lot of ways. And we really need to bring more transit, in my opinion, up to North County. And what I’ve been talking about for quite some time, and it actually will be rolling out pretty soon, is having micro-transit within cities because that is a way for you to actually get where you need to go within the city. It’s not going to take you to work or anything like that. But, you know, on your short trips, you know, getting for instance our kids to school because the school district has very little busing. They are starting to bring some of it back. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But that really is only for the elementary kids. So, you know, the older kids, the middle-schoolers, the high schoolers, how do you get them to school in a meaningful way? And I think micro-transit is a way to do that. But it’s also a way for people like if you want to go out and have dinner, have that glass of wine. You don’t have to drink and drive! You don’t have to call an Uber. If you’ve got a system that actually is on demand, it will meet those needs. And I think it would serve our community better. So, I think having more conversations about, you know, different aspects of a transportation plan that fits really the needs of the community like micro-transit and then also autonomous vehicles. They are the future more than I think fixed rail or fixed routes on buses. I think it really does lend better to peoples’ lifestyles. So, you know, keeping that in mind, that’s what we do at SANDAG. But then also at North County Transit. It’s all about the same things that I just mentioned about transit. But, you know, working with other cities it happens a lot. We also have something on the 78 corridor that is something that not the rest of the nation has. I think it’s one of a kind. And it is that cities work together. And so, Innovate 78 started. And it was really about attracting business to the region. I call us the “upside” of San Diego because we’re North County. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We’re very close to Riverside and to Orange County. And, you know, we really have a different bit of lifestyle. A lot of people that really enjoy the urban living don’t really enjoy it as much in North County. But we also, you know, we have a lot of space for jobs and, you know, we also have a lot of homes. And so, a lot of people, you know, North County is a little more affordable. As you get east of the 5, it, you know, gets a little more affordable. East of the 15 is a little more affordable. But, you know, also trying to figure out how to balance, again, the transportation, getting people to work, and all of that is a consideration. But, you know, when you have large cities like Carlsbad where they have a lot of jobs, where are those people going to live? Well, a lot of them do live in San Marcos, for instance, or Vista. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, you know, Innovate 78 was all about trying to figure out how to attract businesses. If the city of Vista has a business or the city of San Marcos has a business within our city, we can’t find the proper amount of land for them because they want to grow. We work together and our Economic Development Directors work together to figure out where can we move them to stay in North County, so they don’t have to disrupt their workforce, so they don’t have to disrupt their lifestyles. How can we work together to make that happen? And it has been very successful. I’m very proud of the work that we’ve done. And, you know, it has been recognized that we have done some really good work together. SV: Yeah. So, is Innovate 78 like a—is it a formalized structure? Do you have meetings that happen on a regular basis? Or is it more of a—I don’t know exactly what I’m trying to ask you here. RJ: I know what you’re trying to—So, we don’t have—Okay. So, there are quarterly meetings where it’s the mayors, generally, but not always, and council members. So, they kind of cycle in. And then they’re hosted in all the different cities. That’s a quarterly thing. But our Economic Development Directors and staff work actually—they do have monthly meetings. So, they do work together on a very, very regular basis. And, you know, that, again—You know, we’re policy makers. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, it’s not imperative that we are there all the time, you know, at a monthly meeting or something like that. It is when it comes to transportation like SANDAG but not with Innovate 78. And again, you know, there’s a lot of work that has gotten done where, you know, businesses rather than them, you know, locate elsewhere like another county or something like that or, you know, maybe in South County, we’ve been able to keep and retain them here in North County which is a good thing. SV: Yeah. That is a good thing. RJ: Yeah. SV: You talked about micro-transit. I just wanted to clarify what that is in case it becomes available. RJ: Oh, micro-transit is like a small shuttle sort of bus. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Not a big full-sized bus but more of a smaller bus. And it would be—and what North County transit is going to be—Have you ever seen the Carlsbad Connector? SV: I haven’t. RJ: Okay. Well, it’s kind of a, it’s a smaller bus and it would be on demand. That will be rolling out in San Marcos. SV: Okay. RJ: Through North County Transit. SV: Okay. When will that roll out? RJ: Actually, sometime probably fall or early next year. SV: Very cool! RJ: Yeah. SV: I wanted to ask you a little bit about your journey into politics. RJ: Oh my gosh! Yes. Everyone says, “What made you— SV: Yeah! RJ: “—want to be in politics?” Well, I could tell you this much. I never did. (laughs) It’s one of those things that I just kind of fell into. And so, what ended up happening is I was a young mom, and really, I didn’t even know how local government worked. I didn’t know what city government handled. I didn’t know anything about anything. And there was a public notice in the park next to my home. And, you know, I had a baby at home and a four-year-old. And I was like “What’s going on? What is happening?” you know. And some of my neighbors were saying “Oh, we don’t want this in our park.” And I said, “Well, what’s even going on?” And then, as I started delving into it and I got more information and I actually figured out what was going on, I went “Yeah. I don’t like that for the park either. I’m not in love with that.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, it really was being involved. I sat down with all of the council members at the time and I had two council members, a Republican and a Democrat, say to me, “Rebecca, you should get involved in politics.” And I said, “I have you. Why would I do that?” And they said, “Well, we’re definitely not going to be doing it forever.” I think both of them were probably right around 20-25 or 24 years, you know, being involved in the city. And I was like “Why? Why won’t you do this forever?” And they said, “Well, you know, it’s a big job. However, when you really want to help shape the community, it’s a good thing.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I had both of them, you know, talk me into it. First they kind of “voluntold” me. And I actually first joined the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, originally. And I thought that was really interesting because I learned a lot about land use, a lot about, you know, just creating spaces where people could come and, you know, congregate, and really making a community a place where people can, you know, meet up with their friends and, you know, have those restaurants and those spaces that are, you know, beautiful and, you know, signature to the community, very unique. And I really liked that. And so, I was like “Okay. Well, I do like this.” And I have to tell you, my background is that I was a new home sales agent when I was in my early twenties. SV Mm-hmm. RJ: And then, my ex and I started a furniture marketing company which became very successful. We had customers. We started out with zero sales. We actually built that into a $100 million dollars a year in sales with Walmart, Costco, BestBuy as some of our customers. So, it was a pretty lucrative business. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But, you know, it was really hard. And I remember when he came home one day from work, he said, “You know, we’re going to start our own business.” And I went “We??” And, you know, at that time we only had one child and he was one. And he said, “Yes. You’re going to do all of the business part of it. And I’m just going to do the sales.” And I went “Oh. Okay.” And I go “You know, I don’t know how to work a computer.” And he said, “Nah, that’s okay. You’re smart. You could figure it out.” And that’s, you know, that’s really how it started. And so, I’ve always been kind of a, you know, very I would say involved person. If someone, you know, gives me a challenge or a task, I will go all in, and I’ll make sure I’ll do a good job. I’m very conscientious. And so, that really is how it started. Started out, you know, had that background of business in my, you know, my marriage and owning it. And then, I just went “Well, you know what? It’s time for me to give back. It’s time for me to be part of the solution rather than, you know, trying to stop things that are happening, you know as far as development goes.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, there were a couple of other things. The second Walmart, I didn’t agree with that. I didn’t think the placement was correct. And then there was the Robertson’s Ready-Mix batch plant over on Barham. And I said “Yeah. This is negative. I’d rather be positive.” I don’t like negativity, as you could probably tell. I’m a very positive person. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I just knew that it was probably the right thing to do. And so, I ended up actually applying for an appointment because my ex had gotten sick in 2006. So, I wasn’t able to run a campaign that year. And I applied for the appointment in 2007. I was selected. And then I have run five campaigns since then and been elected five times. So, I must be doing something right. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Always been the top vote getter, even if it was for two seats and, you know, I would say that no one outworks me. No one immerses themselves more into trying to be involved and prepared. And so, I think that sets me apart because I really am not a politician. I’m just a person that loves the community and wants to give back and has found a way that I can do that. SV: And you said that you applied for the appointment for city council, if I’m understanding correctly. RJ: Correct. SV: So, what is that process like? RJ: Boy, was that fun. I’m just kidding. (both laugh) So, you filled out an application and then you talked about your experience and what you wanted to bring to the table. And at that time, it was an interesting time. So, Jim Desmond had just been elected as mayor. And, you know, it was—there were four men on the council. Pia Harris-Sebert was our first woman ever elected to the city council. And she was the first woman, but she was really the only woman for quite a while. We did have Betty Evans that, I think, served one or two terms in between. But she wasn’t on there. And so, it was really—there were four men left on the city council. And, you know, Jim Desmond was talking about diversity back then. And, you know, he said, you know, I like what Rebecca brings to the table, the business background, which is really important. And I think everyone should have at least some sort of background as far as how you spend money. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, it’s—you don’t have a ton of money to spend and, you know, really being able to figure out how to best spend that. You know, when you’re a business owner and especially when you’re starting out a business, you are pretty much trying to figure out how you’re not going to starve. And so, that really does bring an interesting perspective, I think, to the table. Anyway, and so, I was selected. There were 27 applicants. I got up to the podium and one of the council members actually had a lot of disagreements with me. He was supportive of the second Walmart. And, you know, he brought that up. He said “Well, you know, Walmart, they’re one of your customers. They must be very forgiving because you didn’t agree with the second Walmart.” And I said, “Well, you know, it doesn’t mean that I’m against Walmart. It just meant that I didn’t think the location was okay.” And those two things—you can still feel both things and believe in both things. It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Walmart. I mean, there are a lot of people in my community that love Walmart. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, whether I’m a Walmart shopper or not, a lot of people want to shop there. And so, you know, I think it’s really important that you have a good mix of businesses. And, you know, I think I brought that to the table. But I also, you know, brought forward the part of—I really cared about, you know, being able to represent everyone. And I think I’ve been—It has been a very valuable voice at that table. SV: Mm-hmm. So, there’s not an election process for city council? Or there wasn’t at that time? RJ: Not for an appointment. No, not for an appointment. SV: Oh, because Desmond— RJ: Because I’m in an appointment. SV: Okay. Gotcha. RJ: Yeah. So, right now, there is a supervisor seat that is going to be vacated. So, there would be an opportunity for either an appointment or a special election. At that time, a special election was gauged to be around $300,000. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s very expensive. If you can come up with an agreement on an appointment, it makes sense, if you can come to an agreement. But it doesn’t always happen. SV: Yeah. So— RJ: And, you know, a lot of people have been appointed and have not been able to get elected. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think there were people that actually spoke against my appointment that when they saw what I did in my first two years, before I had my first election, they went “Wow. Okay.” And they’ve been some of my biggest supporters, to be honest. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, that does actually feel good because people do recognize how hard I work. It does feel good to have that recognized. SV: Yeah. So, then you ran for reelection then around 2009 or so? RJ: 2008— SV: 2008. RJ: —then ’12, and then ’16. I was elected as a woman’s—or as a first woman mayor in our city— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to ever serve as mayor in 2018. And then, I was reelected last year, in 2022. SV: So, what does an election look like from your perspective when you’ve decided—let’s take your first time that you’re going after your appointment when you’re going to be reelected or elected to the city council? RJ: Oh, boy. It’s a lot of fun. So, first of all, you know, you need to raise money. So, do people believe in you? Because they’re not going to definitely, you know, donate to your campaign if they don’t believe in you. So, the good thing is I did have a record and I was able to point back to that. But not only was I able to point back to that, I was able to point back to the success in my business, how hard I’d worked, and all of those things. And, you know, it’s really important, I think, that you do connect to the community because at the end of the day you can raise all the money in the world but if you don’t have the votes, it’s really irrelevant. And so, can you get—And, you know, every single time—and I’ve run five elections—I’ve thought, “Oh my gosh. I’m losing. I’m losing!” (throws her head back and laughs) I’ve had, you know, like—I remember my first campaign. Oh my gosh. I showed up to this one woman’s house. This is really deflating. And she says to me “Oh, I already voted. And I didn’t vote for you.” (Sean chuckles) And I went “Oh. Okay.” (chuckles) And then I walked away, and I thought “Shoot! You know, why didn’t she even give me a chance to tell her about myself.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, so it’s a very humbling experience. And, honestly, I would say equally humbling is actually serving because really, you know, to have people believe in you and when they say to you, “You know what? I love what you’re doing in our community” it really does feel amazing because, again, you know back to your hard work but also, I do love the community. And I do want it to be the best that it possibly can be. And so having that part acknowledged is really important to me too. But, again, very humbling. And, you know, so every single campaign I’m like “Okay. Well, if I just go by what people are saying at the doors, I’m winning! Like I’m winning!” And then I’m like “That could not be how it is. They could just be saying that to me.” And so, you know, it really is a hard thing. And not everyone can put themselves out there. It’s nerve wracking. On that election night, you’re going “Okay. Waiting for the first numbers to come up. What’s it going to be?” And, you know, I have to say my fifth election, you know this last one, it was very ugly. It was very unfair because I was, you know—it was a smear campaign, honestly, on my integrity and what I had done for all these years and trying to paint me into a box. I don’t fit into a box. I’m going to be totally honest about that. I don’t fit into a box. I’m not a politician, don’t want to be a politician. I want to be a civic leader and someone that will read everything and make good decisions for the best of everyone. And, you know, you’re not going to make everyone happy. That part is kind of hard in elected office. But if you’re making most people happy and you’ve got a safe community, a thriving community, at the end of the day that’s all you can really hope for and, you know, again making most people happy but there are going to be some people that don’t like you. I’ve had people actually comment about what I look like which is very insulting. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: What I look like has nothing to do with the kind of job that I do. And, you know, trying to call me little nicknames and that sort of thing, I’m not a robot. I am a person so it does hurt a bit. But, you know, at the end of the day I do remember, you know, some people aren’t going to like me. That’s okay. I just know, at the end of the day really, if I go to bed and I know that I’ve done a good job that day, I wake up the next day and it’s a new day and, you know, I can let things go which it does take that in this job. You do have to let a lot of things go. You know, the personal insults really don’t matter, I guess, at the end. But, you know, I’m not a robot so it does affect me a bit. And, you know, you do have to really remember just to stay true to yourself. And I really am very proud that I have done that. SV: Yeah. What is your process for self-care when you’re having a negative day or a stressful time? RJ: Well, as I mentioned earlier, I have to get to the gym. I mean, I’m just one of those people, if I don’t get enough exercise I will literally overthink things. And so, for me, I’m really getting to the gym. And my gym! Oh, gosh. So, during Covid, closed down in San Marcos. And I was like “Okay. I’m going to go to another one of them.” It was in Encinitas. But I really am very specific because it’s not a super long workout and I can do it whenever, you know, pretty much during, you know, business hours. But I like to be able to go and punch bags (laughs) and kick bags. It’s a kickbox workout. So, I’m not like punching someone. I don’t want to do that. But I do, you know—it’s a kickbox workout. So, now, I found another one. It’s in Rancho Bernardo. So, it’s not in the city which can be kind of beneficial because, you know, I’m not sweaty and looking like a mess. And then, you know, if I’m like I’m punching and I’m having an especially frustrating day, I can do that. The other thing I really love to do is hike. I admittedly have not hiked in a very long time. I actually, a few years ago, hiked in the Tetons. So, I had to do a lot of training for that. So, I was out on the trails two and three times a week which it’s actually better for me when I can find that time. The job is very, you know, —it does entail a lot of time for me. So, it is tough for me to actually do that during the day. And, you know, when we have rainy weather, that doesn’t help. Or weather that’s too hot, that doesn’t help. So, you know, really trying to find the time to at least do that. And then I love to cook. So, during the pandemic, I started cooking for a few elderly people. And so, I have some folks that I cook for. And when I need a mental health moment, I just go in my kitchen and I just cook up a storm and several meals and I mean soups and I just try lots of different, new recipes and find things that I can tweak and make my own. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But those are the things that I do. I do try to do that. I don’t get massages. I really need a massage many times though. I don’t really take the time to do that. So, really, the biggest thing is exercise and then getting that cooking in. You know, and then everyone benefits from it. SV: Yeah. RJ: Because I’m actually not a bad cook, so— (chuckles) SV: So, what’s your best dish? RJ: Oh, gosh. Well, that has evolved. I don’t know. I’ve become quite the soup maker. But I do have my tried and true. I’m really good at prime rib and au gratin potatoes. My kids are always like “Mom” —and, you know, they’re older. They’re twenty. Actually my daughter will be 23 in a few weeks, and my son just turned 27. You know, whenever they, you know, want a good meal, they’re like “Mom. Could you make this? Or can you make that?” and then I made chicken fingers for the first time ever. And they’re like “Mom. These are like the best I’ve ever had.” So, anyway, I’m like “Well, I could teach you how to do it.” And so, you know, I’ve had them over a couple of times and, you know, teaching people to cook, honestly is—You know, there are a lot of people that don’t cook in this world, and I think, you know, the less we eat processed food, the better it is for us. And so, I like to, you know—I cook almost solely organic. I try not to eat heavily processed food. I think it’s better for me. You know, I’m going to be 56 next year—Oh, oh my gosh. Not next year. This year! Oh, gosh! In a few weeks. Oh, gosh, about a month. So, yeah. I’ll be 56. You know, I think our bodies can actually be healthier and mentally better when we’re, you know, putting the right food in them and then also getting exercise too. So, I try to definitely do all that to take care of myself. I know that’s a long story but those are the things that I do. (chuckles) SV: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering. And I asked the food question because I used to be a chef. So, I’m always interested to know about people’s experiences. RJ: Oh, wow! Nice. Nice. SV: And then exercise, I agree. I mean, it’s so important. I think to bring it back to our interview, you know, something that I take advantage of is the bike lanes. RJ: Oh, yeah. SV: And I was curious as to what your—You know, you’ve talked about transit. You’ve talked about micro-transit and, you know, what your priorities are in terms of pedestrian and two-wheeled transit as well. RJ: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. So, actually, at SANDAG, this is kind of interesting, I had actually voted against spending $140, I think it was $140 million dollars on bike lanes. And I had one of our residents send me a message. And he said, “You’re the worst mayor ever!” And I was like “Oh. Wow.” And he said, “I can’t believe how you don’t like cyclists.” And I said, “Well, that’s not exactly how that went.” And so, I explained, you know, that there’s no reason that bike lanes should be costing $5 million dollars a mile. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: That’s way too expensive. There’s no way that should be happening on a road that is literally already there. So, I said, you know, I had an issue with that. I have a real problem spending money in a wasteful way. And, you know, so I said, “Hey, let’s meet.” I sat down with him. He’s now a fan and definitely not, you know, against me any longer because he didn’t really know all of the reasons that I felt the way that I felt. I think getting input from cyclists is really important. You know, again, back to the point that we have 72 miles of, you know, trails. Those are often times, you know, available for cyclists and, you know, pedestrians, hikers, even horses because we still have horses in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, I am really proud about that. The one thing that, you know, I’ve done a lot of research on the different types of bike lanes, and I’m not sold on the cycle tracks. A lot of times the very serious cyclists are saying to me, “Rebecca, they’re very dangerous because you are confined in a space.” They look safe. Maybe for kids they’re safe. But they’re very expensive, first of all. And they really are not super safe because if you hit that curb for whatever reason, you could be thrown off of your bicycle and end up in the middle of a lane. That’s not very safe. Or there is a lot of crashes if you’ve got like—you know, most cyclists are in packs. Hardly anyone goes by themselves. I have a lot of friends that are very serious cyclists that, since this whole thing came forward, I’ve actually just from my friend group—and I do have some serious cyclists now in it. And they don’t really like those tracks. So, in my opinion, any time that we can have a sharrow, which is the bike lane that is a full lane with cyclists in it and then a car only lane, I think that’s probably a really good idea. Any time we can have a split because you’re not limited on space or real estate and have, you know, a separate bike lane that’s by itself but without all of the little candlesticks and the curbs and all that, I think that’s a good idea. It’s not always possible because a lot of times you’re putting them in after the fact. I would like to see more education. I am concerned that some people get really upset with cyclists. And some cyclists—I have to tell you. I actually had a property down at the beach, a second property, with my ex and, you know, every time I would go to back out of the driveway cyclists would come and they would like not pay attention to me. And I would go “Well, they’re not the only one on the road.” And then I would see them running stoplights and stop signs. And that actually upsets motorists. I hear people say it all the time. And I go, “I get where you’re coming from. However…” You know, I try to defend cyclists. But, you know, if we all ran by the same rules or all, you know, followed the same rules, that would actually be optimum. You’re probably never going to see that, you know. There are always people that are going to break rules. It’s just how it is. And they shouldn’t spoil it for everyone. And so, you know, I have to say I am very, very careful around cyclists, and I really wish everyone was because the truth is a cyclist is never going to win against your car. SV: Yeah. RJ: It, you know—And, you know, as soon as, you know, you hear of, you know, a cyclist getting hit by a car and they’re like “Oh, it’s obviously the car’s fault.” Sometimes it isn’t. I mean, really sometimes it isn’t. You know, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I do think we need to, again, create the opportunities, education and, you know, let’s just get into eBikes for one second. The kids should not be on the eBikes that are above their ability. It is a moving vehicle. It is like being on a moped or a motorcycle. I am—oftentimes, I see the kids, you know, going wayward and crazy on them. And you know what? It’s a recipe for disaster. And then, you know what? There are accidents that happen. And, you know, it shouldn’t be all on the driver. The cyclists, you know, including the eBikes really need to be responsible. I really would love to see more education in that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: I have brought that up numerous times. I think the school district really should take a lead in this. I know our deputies at our Sheriff’s station do it as well. But, you know, a lot of kids are riding them to school. And it’s very dangerous. Parents, pay attention! (laughs) SV: Yep. RJ: They just think, “Oh, it’s just a bicycle.” It’s really not. And it really is very dangerous and, you know, we can’t parent the kids. That’s not our job. The parents need to parent their kids and they need to teach them how to be responsible with their bicycles, their eBikes especially. SV: Yeah. eBikes are a new wrinkle to resolve, I think, in the whole transit conversation. RJ: They are. And scary! It really is scary but, you know, very beneficial because they can take you longer and, you know, longer distances quicker. And you don’t have to be in super good shape to use them. But if you’re not responsible with them, they’re very, very dangerous. SV: Yeah. They’re good for the hills around here too. RJ: Yeah. For sure. I know. Someone said “Oh, yeah, just, you know, ride your bicycle around town.” And I’m like “Yeah. That’s—” We’re very hilly in San Marcos. SV: Yep. (both laugh) All right. So, we talked a little bit about your campaign, that first campaign, in 2008. I guess I wanted to circle back a little bit to even before that, to the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force that you served on from 2005-2007. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was just curious as to what was the goal of the Task Force? RJ: It was to come up with a plan of mixed use and utilizing that entire area which, by the way, you know, we’ve been updating our general plan. We’ve put that on hold for now and we’re going to have a greater emphasis on bringing the Creek District part into that because we do need to update that plan. So, FEMA has updated the flood plain and all of those, you know, different areas are going to be changed due to in a 100-year flood, what happens? You know, if we get the torrential sort of rain that we had, you know, recently, another time or worse than that, oh my gosh. It makes a big difference. We have—excuse me (hiccups) —we haven’t had a situation where it’s flooded all the way from Escondido. But it could very well happen. And so, you know, being prepared is important. You’re not going to build a bunch of buildings in the flood way. It just isn’t going to happen. Currently, there is, you know, the Valley Christian School that’s over there. It’s in the flood way. So, they can’t, you know, change their buildings or anything like that. The reason I bring that up is that’s kind of like the edge of the Creek District area and then it goes all the way over behind Grand, or right around Grand. And there’s actually affordable housing that’s right in that area. So, what we did is we approved a plan for that. And then we also started getting the permits from the agencies so we could build the infrastructure. The infrastructure will be done this year. That’s a big first step in actually moving that forward. But, then again, you know we still need to incorporate the part of the land use changes are going to happen. We also have had people like Gary London come in and say “You’ve got too much commercial to the residential. You’re going to need to make some tweaks.” So, it likely will not build as dense as we had originally approved. So, we really do need to update it and bring in those changes, you know, bringing in the flood plain. And then also the fact that the infrastructure is actually done also changes things too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, the emphasis will be on getting that updated as well as the general plan. SV: Okay. So, the original goal then with the Task Force and into when you served on it then was to create the plan that is now kind of being put into effect. RJ: Yes, exactly. SV: And did it account for a Creek District at that time? Because the Creek District is going to be like a public/private partnership that will help with development. RJ: Well, there was 62 property owners in there today. SV: Okay. RJ: You know, when we approved that, yeah. It was to bring an it, a place, a place where people could come— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —congregate, as I had mentioned earlier, and really, you know, a space where it would be, you know, open. And, you know, you could have, you know, different community events there and that sort of thing. Also, North City is that way. North City we actually approved as a university district back in 2009. We always thought the Creek would come first. Well, University District has now really become. And again, you know, we don’t even have an actual downtown in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, you know, creating a downtown, creating that space. It looks like North City is becoming that. You know, we’ve got the Belgian Waffle Ride coming this weekend. It’s the largest cycling event in the western United States. It’s a big deal. Thousands of cyclists are coming from all over. They’re going to be eating in our city. They’re going to be staying here. We don’t have a ton of hotels. There are going to be a couple of other ones in North City and then also in the Creek District eventually. But really creating that downtown was one of the things that we really wanted to do. But we always saw North City—a university district back then when we approved it—and then the creek, because they connect. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Having that as a center core for the city. SV: When do you think North City will be built out? RJ: Oof. Well, that depends on so many different things. If I had a crystal ball, I could answer that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, they’ve been (sighs), they’ve been through a downturn in the economy. They’ve been through a pandemic. You know, they’ve been through a lot. If you go there today, you know, they’ve got several restaurants. They’ve got the only, first of its kind, building with the university which is the Extended Learning Building because there’s nothing like that in all of California. And then you’ve got like Mesa Rim. You’ve got Draft Republic which was the old Urge Gastropub. You have Newtopia Cyder, Fresh Café, Maya’s Cookies, Wynston’s Ice Cream, Copa Vida, Buona Forcbetta, Umami, a lot of things happening there but, you know, not the residences. You have a little bit of residence there. You’ve got the quad, which is university, you know, kids that live there. And then you have Block C. And then you have the block that’s The Wrap behind. And then also, you know, don’t forget too Pima Medical is right there. And then, you know, you’ve got medical offices now, Scripps Health. And so, a lot of things are happening. It really is on the edge of becoming something much bigger. They have broken ground on and they’re moving forward with the first large-scale residential in there. And it’s going to be about 12 stories high. And so that will really be a game changer, I think, for North City. I think that will be what brings the really the grocery store and the other businesses that they need that can actually handle those residents and offer the services that they need. And, you know, that’s always what the Creek was envisioned. I mean these are things that I learned when we were, you know, going on these field trips to old Pasadena and, you know, all these different places that were mixed use because we didn’t really have much mixed use at that time in the city. We have a little bit over off of Mission but it’s very, very small scale. You know, having the meeting spaces, having the, you know, congregation spaces where you can have like an open-air amphitheater, something like that, that’s all things that really we started with the planning of the Creek District. Again, you know, we have to update that. But really—And it, you know, kind of grew into also North City being part of that, being a large scale downtown core area for us. SV: Yeah. There is a lot of construction going on right now. RJ: Yes. There is. SV: You have the infrastructure going on along the Creek District. You have it seems like three or four different projects right around North City and in North City. RJ: Yeah. So, you know, okay. So, back when I was selling new homes in my early twenties, I was working at Discovery Creek, Discovery Trail, so Discovery Hills. And back then we had, you know, this big map that showed everything that was going to happen in the, you know, the adjoining property. Back then, Craven wasn’t even there. I mean this—just to date myself of how long I’ve been around in San Marcos. First moved here in 1987. Just looking at, you know, what it was going to be with Kaiser Hospital, Scripps Hospital which isn’t going to happen now. But they are going to have medical offices, much like Carmel Mount Ranch. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, pretty large-scale medical offices. You know, unfortunately, you know medical is always something that we need. And, you know, fortunately though we’ve got some space to put that. You know, we don’t want people to have to go all the way down to Carmel Mount Ranch to go to a doctor. And, you know, currently Kaiser Permanente doesn’t have a hospital. The nearest one is Mira Mesa. So, 180,000 subscribers in North County have to go all the way there for a hospital. So, it’s going to be opening up in August I’m told. They’ve got a ribbon cutting all scheduled. And the Creek project, the infrastructure, it’s about $112 million to start. That is our largest capital improvement project we’ve ever had. We broke ground on that on my one-year anniversary of taking office as Mayor, which is exciting being that, you know, I’d only been talking about it for 10-12 years (laughs) before that. And, you know, before me many other councils had talked about it. You know, this year is our 60th anniversary or birthday, and our sister city Vista, it’s their birthday as well. We were incorporated on January 28, 1963. And so, here we are. We’re in our birthday year, opening up our largest capital improvement project, opening up our hospital. I mean, a lot is happening. There’s also an extension of Discovery which is about $40 million as well, 30-40 million. That is going from Craven all the way through to Twin Oaks. That’s a big deal too, getting that done. But, you know, we’re trying to move people around in a meaningful way. That will be one of our first corridors that has intuitive lighting, stop lights that will help people get through. But one of the things that I’ve really focused on that I want to get done is to make sure that we’re getting the traffic flow better. Traffic, it does feel like it’s at its worst. That’s one of the things that my opponent was using against me during the campaign. I’m like “Well, we’ve got all this road construction. Sure as heck, we’re going to have terrible traffic right now.” But when it’s done, I believe it will be a significant improvement. You know, getting the flooding to stop so you no longer have that. Being able to have two lanes over Via Veracruz is a big deal. And I remember originally when we were talking about, you know, the Bent Crossing. We talked about a—to save money, well, what if we did an Arizona Crossing, which I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. SV: I’m not. RJ: It would still flood! SV: Okay. RJ: And I said “No. No. No. Let’s, let’s not do that.” So, we were able to apply for federal funds. And so, a lot of it is grant funded but a lot of money also comes from San Marcos residents. So again, you know, back to wanting to spend their money wisely. Helping move them around the city is really important. We appreciate everyone being so patient—not always patient. But, you know, it has been a tough, tough project because we’ve had unprecedented rain this year, of course. Of course, it had to happen! Just when we weren’t expecting it to happen. But, you know, it would have been a heck of a lot worse had we not had the bridge at Bent opened. I think that could have been actually dangerous for our residents if we had not gotten so far ahead on that. But that will be done probably about a July timeframe. So, the infrastructure will be done. The hospital will come right after that in August. I would say it’s a good year, a good year that we’re getting a lot done, you know, the hospital done and everything, just a lot of good things for our residents. And again, you know, the jobs that we’re providing too, that’s a thousand jobs at Kaiser Permanente. So, those are some really good high-paying jobs. I think that’s a huge win. I’m really proud of that. You know, when I first got the call from their west coast person, he said to me “Are you still interested in the hospital?” And I was like “Where do I sign up?” (laughs) Because, yes! Of course, I’m still interested. Anything we can do to help make that happen, you know. And, you know, also having the university have, you know, the nursing program has been really important. And then, you know, also over at Palomar because, you know, these are also the ability to teach, you know, hands on is a big deal. And, you know, we’re becoming a healthcare hub, now, of North County which is great, you know, with the hospital opening up and then Scripps are moving forward with their big medical offices. It’s, you know, again it’s sad that people are not healthy, however good that they have the ability to get those healthcare options close to home. SV: Yeah. RJ: And the good jobs, of course. SV: Yes. RJ: Yeah. SV: Yeah. Definitely. RJ: In fact, my niece actually just got her nurse’s license. So, very exciting. SV: Congratulations to your niece. RJ: Yes, very exciting. SV: I wanted to circle back a little bit to 2018 and just ask you why did you decide to run for mayor then? RJ: Oosh, well, I decided well before 2018. I actually decided when I was getting elected in 2016 as mayor. I talked to my husband at the time and, you know, ’18 was a tough year, I have to tell you. I was finishing up my divorce. He told me he didn’t want to be married anymore in 2017. So, I was in the middle of a divorce. I had to sell the property, buy a property. I moved 10 days after the election. A lot of people don’t know how hard that was. It was really tough. But, you know, what I knew that, again, you know being apolitical, really pretty apolitical, was an important thing for our future. I think also, you know, having these large-scale things coming up. I wanted to see them through. And, you know, I have to tell you, looking back and seeing all that we have been able to accomplish during my time on the council, I’m so proud. I know that when I’m ready to retire, I can look back and be very proud of what I’ve been able to accomplish with very, you know, diverse group of people. We now have three women, by the way, on the city council which is great. But, you know, again, you know, for 2018 having the first mayor that’s a female, that’s pretty surprising. You know, as progressive as the city is and, you know, how entrepreneurial we’ve really been, I always thought it would be Pia Harris Ebert, which she has been a wonderful mentor to me. I can’t express enough how much I value her leadership, all of her 24 years on the city council. But, you know, when she told me she was retiring, I said, “What?? You can’t go!” and she said, “You know what? I can look back and I can be very proud.” I mean we used to be known for our chicken ranch and then our dairy. And that was it! We were known as a chicken ranch and dairy city, not for higher learning education, being a great place to run a family, a great school district. We were never known for that. We were known for other things. So, I really am proud of how we’ve elevated who we’ve become, the city that we are, and all that we have accomplished. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, the things needed to be seen through and now, you know, I’m on my second term as mayor just, you know, getting reelected last year. I am very happy. I’m very happy. But I’m also, you know, as concerned about, you know, creating opportunity for a new team to come in that is like-minded, focusing on us being a safe city, focusing on us being an entrepreneurial city, also making sure that we are serving our community and providing awesome trails and parks and all of that. And it becomes very challenging when you’re an infill city, and as built out as we are. So, you know, it’s got to be, you know, trying to find good people that want to come after me. And that’s, you know, what both Pia Harris Ebert and Hal Martin did. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I appreciate that. And I take that responsibility very seriously as well. So, that’s what I’m going to be doing the next three years, three and a half years. And then, you know, making sure that we stay focused. And we’re going to have some tough financial times. You know, it’s—business has not come back the way that we’ve all hoped. And so, you know, we hear of layoffs all the time. You know, General Atomics, I think they laid off 400 people last week. That’s a lot! So, having those challenges you really do need to have a good team in there. But, you know, I’m trying to bring other people forward because that’s a big part of, you know, a succession plan. It’s really important. SV: Yeah. You mentioned businesses haven’t come back. Were you referring to from the pandemic? RJ: Correct. Yes. SV: Yeah. RJ: Just not in the way—you know, we do have a lot of businesses that have opened. But, you know, we also lost some. I mean, San Marcos Brewery, I still am sad about that, you know, a long-time business in our city, gone. Couldn’t keep their doors open with the open and closing and all of that. There are a lot of stories like that, unfortunately. And so, you know, being able to support the business community, I work a lot at that. I mean if I—I try to do everything I possibly can to support our businesses. And, you know, it’s not like one business. It’s thousands, you know. We’ve got like four tho—let me think here—four thousand businesses here in the city. It’s a lot! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s a lot. It’s actually upwards of four thousand. And, you know, many of those are store fronts and they’re very small and, you know, they’re family owned. And, you know, I love that. I love that they’re thriving. I love that they’re doing well. I was actually just at a business opening a couple of weeks ago. The father-in-law of this young woman that just opened a brand-new business, he is a long-time business owner in San Marcos, twenty—I think twenty-six years he’s been in business. So, you know, seeing those generations, you know, staying in the city, opening up new businesses. I love that. But, you know, they’re going to need our help. And, you know, they need us to congregate and go to their businesses and, you know, spend our money here locally. And I try to always, you know, emphasize that. You know, during the pandemic, I tirelessly spent so much time on, you know, media just hey talking about all of our great businesses, and what about this and what about that and you know they need us now. But they need us still now. It’s not going to end. And, you know, a lot of them are really struggling. So, as costs go up, people eat out less. They spend less of their money. And so, we’ve got to remember that, when you can, try to spend it locally, whenever possible. SV: Yeah. I imagine a lot of governance is trying to minimize the bad impacts of change, you know, unforeseen or foreseen. And you talked a little bit about the pandemic. I was curious as to, you know, what you could do to lessen the burden on folks during that time and what you all did do. RJ: Gosh. Wow, we did a lot actually. We were the first city that—you know, we have always had very good reserves. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, that’s something that is because we’ve been very fiscally responsible. That money is for rainy days. And when the pandemic came, that was a rainy day. SV: Yeah. RJ: It really was. And so, we set aside $3 million. We were the first city, I believe. The only other city that may have actually beat us was the city of San Diego. But I think they set aside like $5 million. We set aside $3 million. They’ve got a population of 1.3 million. SV: Yeah. RJ: We have a population of under 100. So, I think we really outshined them in that. And I’m really proud that we did that. And that is, you know, that’s being very, very pro-business. I’ve always been pro-business, you know, being that I owned my own business and I know how hard it was. I thought that was something that we should do. And I wholeheartedly believe it’s the right thing to do for our community. But, anyway, so we did that. And we had business loans. So, it was small business loans up to $50,000, depending on your circumstances. We hired an outside company to do all the credit checks. And just, you know, you couldn’t be late prior to Covid. You know, you had to meet a few guidelines. But we were very intentional about trying to get that money out fast, as fast as possible. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: The federal government didn’t have any money out. And we had already saved a lot of businesses. Then the other thing that we did is we were the first city that had our businesses, as soon as the governor—I remember watching the press conference. And Governor Newsom said, when he was talking about some of the businesses could no longer be operating inside, but he didn’t say outside! I was on the phone to our economic development director, and I said, “I’m thinking we can have outside businesses. What can we do to make this as quick as possible.” And we had people moving their businesses. And it was a lot of services, like haircutting and all of that. And then there was another issue about that because—and, you know, restaurants and everything. But there was another issue with that because they didn’t have their business licenses. So, we were actually fighting to open up. And, you know, I mean, again, tirelessly, the letters that I sent to the governor. I mean, I was on full blown action I felt like the whole time, which is very exhausting. SV: Yeah. RJ: But it was like okay, let’s get those businesses moved outside as soon as they can. And we had businesses and we’re like “Don’t worry about your permit. We’re going to check, make sure that you are following it. Just follow these guidelines and we’ll come and check on you.” We had businesses out there before any other. And we didn’t charge anyone a fee. There were a lot of cities that were out there charging them a fee. We’re like no. We need our businesses to stay in place. We need to support them, and we can’t just say that we’re supporting them. We actually have to do it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I am really proud that we did that. And, you know again, we didn’t close all of our trails. We were not very out in public, you know, screaming it from the rooftops that we’re open because we didn’t want our city residents to feel crowded because all of the other residents from the other cities were coming, though some people knew about them. It was just—it was important for us to do everything we could to support the community. So, fast forward to when we received our federal funds, we were actually able to take all of those loans and make them grants so they didn’t have to be paid back. That was huge. SV: Yeah. RJ: The other thing that we did is we set aside some of our ARPA funds to help our non-profits. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Because they were really hurting at that time too. And I am so proud of all of the things that we did during the pandemic because it was us being innovative, us cutting through the red tape, and us working hard to support our businesses and our community and our non-profits. Because our non-profits support our residents, right? And then the other thing that we also did is—and it’s not our responsibility, though we recognized that our community, our youth were doing very poorly. You know, I’ve been involved with the Boys and Girls Club for many years. And one of the things that they—I was having a conversation with them—one of the things that they were saying is that many of the kids that are at risk were not checking in. And so, you know, you’ve got parents that are very frustrated. The kids are at risk of being abused or neglected. And you’ve got this ultra tough situation happening. So, the mental health of our community, you know, we’ve really tried to focus on that too. And so, one of the things that we did for our youth in the community is we partnered with the school district, and we are equally funding the mental health program that they have rolled out to help the kids bounce back and figure out. You know, a lot of them are so confused. A lot of them have learning deficits. They don’t know how to articulate that, their frustration, their fear and, you know, just getting sick. You know, a lot of them are terrified of getting sick. And, you know, what is life going to be? It’s very different. SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, back to the whole pivot—I mean, I know pivot is kind of overused during the pandemic, but it’s a real thing. And so, for us as a city, you know, we made an intentional effort to do what we could to also help the kids. And, you know again, I think I told you this a little bit earlier, you know, I had people—I felt like a counselor many times during the pandemic. I had some of our folks calling me up and sending me messages and saying, you know, “I’m scared.” And so, I would check in on people and let them know, “Hey. You know what? You’re seen. You’re heard. We care about you.” So, you know, mayor’s job is not just all legislation. You know, there’s a lot of parts to it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think something that a lot of people think is really, it’s just all about rules and regulations. That’s all your job is. Well, I think as a mayor especially, and a councilmember to some degree, but I think as a mayor I’m the figurehead pretty much for the city council. A lot of people know who the mayor is, and they might not know who their councilperson is. For me to be the face of our city, out there letting people know that we care about them and letting them know that it’s not all about rules and regulations. We actually had a young man that was murdered within our community by one of his friends. He was in his early 20s. And, you know, we renamed a trail after him, actually the Gratitude Trail in his memory, right there around Discovery Lake because us doing things to help our community heal in tough times, in tragic times, is really important. And I really do think that that’s a part of government that sometimes people are like “Well, I’m a politician. I don’t have to do that.” Yeah, you don’t have to do it. But I think doing it is important because, again, you know, how—you know, during the pandemic, people needed to know we care about you. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We care about your businesses. We’re all in with you. We’re going to do everything we can to keep you open and do it safely, of course. But, you know, when it was all the big businesses could stay open and then the small businesses were closed. They couldn’t adapt to that! SV: Yeah. RJ: Many of them went out of business. And, you know, so we had to make it so that it’s easy for every small business to get a fair shake, to be treated like a large business, you know, while also following the health order. So, it was a real tough time. And, again you know, back to grief. You’ve got to deal with grief too within a community and figure out how to move people forward. And, you know, one of the things that I think is always important is, even if you’re taking baby steps moving forward, you’ve got to move forward. Whatever that looks like. And sometimes it’s very different than two weeks ago even. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I mean when the pandemic hit, remember, two weeks! Staying home. SV: Yeah. We have a archive that we started mostly with the students, but with community as well, trying to record experiences during that time. RJ: Yeah. SV: And it’s amazing so many students especially writing “I thought I was going to have a two-week vacation and here I am a year later.” And, you know, it’s just— RJ: Yeah. SV: —it’s just a traumatic experience all the way around. RJ: For sure. And, you know, I mean that is a part, I think, of being a mayor during a pandemic that I—you know, it’s kind of interesting. I was on a Zoom with some girl scouts, and they said to me “If you knew there was going to be a pandemic, would you still run for mayor?” (Sean laughs) And it was funny because I didn’t even hesitate and I said, “Absolutely!” SV: Yeah. RJ: And the reason being is because I was the right person at the right time. I am very positive and I’m very—I mean, you know, the glass is not half-full. The glass is almost to the top, right? There’s always a way to bring everyone together. There’s always a way to, you know, encourage people. And, you know, that’s what I did! My job changed. But I kept working. And, you know, there were a lot of people that really needed to be seen and I let them know they were being seen. SV: Yeah. RJ: I think without hesitation I am glad that I was the mayor at that point in time. SV: Mm-hmm. It’s a really interesting thing that you say about there being—I guess you’re saying so your job is obviously legislation. But it’s also emotional labor and care and I’m hearing as well, communication is important. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: What are some other aspects? I guess my question is what would surprise people the most about your job that people don’t know? RJ: Oh, that’s a tough one. Gosh, I don’t even know if I have an answer to that. You know, it’s interesting. So, Jeff Zevely, he’s from Channel 8. He actually was doing a show on our birthday. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And he said to me, he goes “You know, if San Marcos had a cheer squad, would you be on it?” and I said, “I’m the head cheerleader! What are you talking about?” (both chuckle) And he even said to me after the interview, he goes “You were so fast. You didn’t even like stop for one second.” I said, “Well, that’s my job.” My job is to not just deal with all the tough stuff. It’s also to be out advocating that San Marcos is a great place to live. We have so much for—You know, you can start out, you know, as a baby. And pretty soon you’ll be able to be born here (indicates quotations with her fingers), actually born here, because—I mean, I guess you could be born at your house if you’ve got a midwife or something but, you know, it’s not a traditional thing. You could be born here, and you can earn a master’s degree and then you could work here, and you could have a good paying job. Like that is a remarkable thing if you look at our city from our humble roots: one stop light, chicken ranch, the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch right here where the university is today. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And Hollandia Dairy. That’s all we were known for. And so, yeah, I would say a lot of people might not know what that entails but it’s a lot of time and effort. I can assure you of that. SV: Yeah. RJ: Like it’s almost more than the actual job, although I do a lot of reading. So, that’s probably the most time consuming part of my job, you know, because when I show up, you know, I’ve even had people at SANDAG say—that are a different political party than me—say, “You know, I might not—” And actually this happened like maybe, well it’s happened a few times, but in the last couple of weeks, where this man got up and he said, “You know, Mayor Jones—” and I’m like going “Oh gosh. What’s he going to say?” (both laugh) You never know, right? And then he says, “Mayor Jones, even though I philosophically don’t agree with you on everything, I appreciate that you are always prepared, and you know exactly what you’re talking about because you’re prepared.” And it really does require a lot of time and effort. And, you know, there are times I wake up and I’m like “I’m tired today. I don’t want to work.” But I don’t get that luxury. I have to do what I have to do. And I’ve got to pull it together. And it is a very—you know, the cheerleading part of it and I’m not saying it, you know, like a cheerleader—but, you know, being again the spokesperson, the person that’s in the front, the person that’s out and about the most, probably one of the most identifiable positions in the community—even if people don’t know me, they know that there’s a mayor. You know, to be the mayor of such an incredible city, I’m really humbled by it. I really am. But it does take a lot of effort and it does take a lot of, you know, inner strength. And, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood and, you know, I was a latchkey kid a lot of the time. And, you know, my parents got divorced when I was eleven which is a really tough age. And I had a lot of things happen where I just go “Gosh, I wish it wouldn’t have been my life.” However, it was. But you know what? It also gives me the authority when people are, you know, telling me “You know, I’m going through tough times,” I get it! I was there. I’ve been there. And, you know, I think it helps me do a very good job. And, you know, not everyone thinks I do a good job. But I just got reelected so— SV: Yep! RJ: —again, 64% of the vote. I don’t think I mentioned that before. But the largest margin I’ve ever won by, I think that is a testament to how much I care for the community, how hard I work for the community, and the fact that it’s not all about legislation to me. It really is about being the cheerleader and the person that’s out in the front, talking about what a remarkable community we have. And when I say, “the community,” it’s the people. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s not me. It’s people that I represent. And I hope that they will always feel like they can reach out to me, and I will always try to help them in whatever I can. SV: Yeah. Thank you. I think I had maybe one or two more questions. But something that I didn’t necessarily prepare to talk about in this interview, I wanted to ask you about was you mentioned you’re the first mayor that was elected that’s a woman in San Marcos history. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was curious if there are considerations that, in your opinion, that women politicians have to take into account that men do not. RJ: Huh! (Sean chuckles) Well… SV: I know that’s a big question. RJ: Well, I’m also not married. So, it actually is quite awkward— SV: Yeah. RJ: —in a lot of ways, you know, because I am out there. It opens it up for—And, you know, there’s a lot of discussion about bias, right? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There is still bias against women. It’s sad. But there are. And women politicians! I don’t know if people are surprised all the time. But, I mean, I have been, I mean, I’ve been called names. I’ve been, you know, people try to box me in as I mentioned earlier. It’s hard to believe that it’s 2023 and things still happen the way that they happen because, you know, talking about what I look like, what my body looks like. I’ve had people actually talk about what my body looks like! I’m thinking, wow! You know? Would you say that to your mother? Because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. And so, you know, at a job like this that’s very out there, very highly visible—and I am highly visible—you know, I’ve had a few times, very inappropriate comments, inappropriate messages sent to me. And, you know, a couple of times I’m like “Gee, should I be worried?” And I send everything to the Sheriff’s department when I have things that are sent to me that are uncomfortable. But it’s different than being a man. One hundred percent. It’s very different than being a man. I don’t think you have to worry about people talking about what you look like. I don’t think that any man as a mayor would have people sending them messages about what they look like. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t think it would ever happen. Now, I don’t really mean if someone says “Oh, I really like how your style.” That’s not sexual. But the truth is a lot of things that are sent are very sexual and I think—I am actually flabbergasted, and you know I’m almost 56 years old. I’m flabbergasted that at 56 years old, as an elected mayor, that I would be treated like this. But it happens! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s really hard to believe. And, honestly, I feel bad for every woman that is just trying to do a job and it gets distracted and convoluted by people bringing in other things that are just not appropriate. It’s just not appropriate. I mean, talking about what I look like or whether they—I mean, the first thing that someone said to me—I was offended but it was early on—was that my teeth were freakishly white. And I went (makes a puzzled and slightly disgusted look on her face) “Why would someone talk about that?” I don’t even think someone would say that about a man. SV: Yeah. RJ: But I feel like, as a woman, on some level there is this—it’s open to talk about what you’re wearing, what you look like, whether they think you are, you know, someone they would want to date or someone—I mean, like really inappropriate things when you’re just trying to darn well do a job, you know what I mean? So, it really is just hard to believe that here we are in 2025—or 2023. Gosh, I can’t even believe I just said that. (both laugh) SV: What would your advice— RJ: You can cut that part out! (both still laughing) SV: We’ll make a note. What would your advice be to women entering politics? RJ: That’s another tough one. You know, I have a podcast too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And one of the things about my podcast that I love is that you’ve got women from every different, you know, career, all different political parties. It’s not at all political. But they’re all just doing their job and they found something that they love. So, I guess one of the things that I would tell women that are thinking about politics, if you love it, you should definitely do it because you’re going to be very, very effective when you can put your heart into it. There is a lot of preparation that happens. And like for me, you know, I now am the one with the historical knowledge because I’ve been around so long. There is a lot to learn. I mean, you really do need to try to figure out why things happened. I mean, when I first joined the council, I spent every single Friday, like half a day, with the City Manager because he was with the city for like 24 years to find out everything I could about the why and the how and, you know, just how things happen because I thought that would prepare me which it has. But don’t let the things—I mean, you are going to have to have thick skin. It’s true. You are going to have to have thick skin, thicker than a man that goes into politics. But don’t be deterred by people. You really need to follow what you think is right and bringing in your own style. Like I don’t know anyone that does my job the way that I do it because I do it my way. And I don’t let any political party call me up and tell me what to do. I follow what I believe is right. And I follow the kind of politician that I want to be, though I don’t really consider myself politician, technically I am. But I really just want to do a good job. I want to be prepared. I think as a woman you probably have to be a little more prepared. Otherwise, people will start thinking that “Well, you don’t belong there. You’re not smart enough. You’re not this.” It really is about taking information and making a good decision. If you’re a good decision-maker, you can do this job. You’re qualified. You love the community, you’re qualified. If you are willing to put a lot into it, you’re qualified. Not everyone has that qualification. And when I say qualification, it’s not just what others believe but it’s what you believe on the inside. And, you know again, back to my podcast, my podcast is about elevating women because we really still need elevating. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: As, you know, there’s a lot of talk about, you know, different segments of the population whether you’re a minority, whatever, it really still is about women too. We do fit into that. The equity and the inclusion isn’t all about your race. It’s about also your gender because our gender still is a hinderance. And some people don’t see that. And I wish more people paid attention to that because when you’re a woman, you’re a minority. You really do have more against you than a man that’s a minority. And as a woman that is not a minority, you still have things against you that are something that a man would not experience. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I wish more people really paid attention to that. But, you know, back to the point of if you’re a woman and you really want to, if you have a heart for politics, you should not let any one person or segment of people deter you if you really, really have the heart for it because you can do it. It just is going to be probably a little harder than it is for a man. SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that answer. And I think it’s wonderful advice. RJ: Thank you. SV: I’ll give you a much nicer question. RJ: Nah, that’s not a hard question at all! I, honestly, and I really do believe it. I mean, it’s terrible! It really is terrible that we’re still there, in 2023. SV: Yeah. RJ: Why did I say 2025? I don’t know. (Sean laughs) SV: It happens. What is the best day of work that you’ve had? RJ: Oh, gosh. There have been a lot of them. I would say I had a really good one recently. And it’s weird because, you know, it’s always something different. But honestly, when I am out in the community at an event and there are kids and they ask me things like—I was at the Boys and Girls Club and I was, of all things, baking cookies with them. So, let me tell you a little story. So, during the pandemic, we decided at West Lake Village that we, the city, that we were—well, we already knew that we were going to have a long-term lease for the Boys and Girls Club so they could expand their services at that location. And then, when we got some of our ARPA funds, we were like okay, we’ll help them with the TIs (tenant improvements) because then that’ll be good for the community because kids can go there and, you know, spend, you know, more time there. So, anyway, I was like “Oh, they’re going to have a kitchen there.” And I was like “That’s so cool.” So, I called up the director—and by the way, I started a girls mentoring program at the Boys and Girls Club which during the pandemic we had to kind of shut down. But I used my tax refund to put some money into it. And I said to them, I said “You know what would be great?” I go, “I really want to come back and spend more time with the kids,” because I’ve been so busy since I got elected as mayor. I don’t always have time to do all the things I really want to do. And I said, “Can I come back and, you know, bake cookies with the kids?” And they were like “Yeah, sure.” And I said, “So, I want to also donate a mixer.” You know, not all kids get to use a really nice KitchenAid mixer. But it’s really cool to use and to learn and, you know again, like to your point, you know. When you’re a chef, you probably are going to be using one of those at some point in time. So, I was like “I really want to buy one.” I’m like “It’s on my heart. I want to do this.” So, I donated the mixer a while ago. And then I’m like, “Gosh. Okay, it’s January. I need to start figuring out when I’m going to get in and bake cookies with the kids because I really want to do it.” And so, we set up a date. It was right after the darn 78 flooding happened. SV: Oh, yeah. RJ: And CalTrans. And it was that day. It was that day at 4 o’clock. I was supposed to go over there and bake cookies with them. And then I had to cancel because Caltrans had to have this emergency meeting. And I was like on Zoom, and I was like “Oh, darn it.” I’m like “Oh, duty calls.” I’m like “Can we reschedule another day?” So, we rescheduled another day. I get there and the kids are so excited to meet the mayor first of all. And this is, by the way, intentionally in one of our lower income areas of the city. It’s over on Autumn Drive. And they’re like “Do you think I could be a mayor?” And I just got to hang out and talk to them and I’m like—and teach them how to make, you know, how to crack the eggs. They were doing so good. And, you know, so there was about—I think there was like 12 or 14 of them. I’m like “I want to go back and do that like so all the kids that go to that branch have that moment of time with me.” Because I appreciated it as much as they did. And so, for me, the moments like that or when I get to go and talk to, you know, kids that are at the Boys and Girls Club service groups like Girls Scouts, Boys Scouts. All of the kids groups, honestly, those are the best days that I always have. I mean, really, the kids are excited. I’m really excited to hear what they have to say. But I also am getting a different—and back to, you know, my point of going out and door knocking and meeting people and hearing what they have to say about the city. I’m hearing it from kids and they’re going to be 100% honest. SV: Yeah. RJ: They’re not going to sugarcoat it. SV: (laughs) That’s true. RJ: They’re not going to try to fluff me up. They’re not going to try to get something out of me. They are going to tell me exactly what they think about their community. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I appreciate that. So, for me, it’s always about the moments with the kids when I get to go out and do things like that. It actually fills me so much more than any other moments because, again you know, you do have to put a lot into it. You know, when you’re out there on—and when I say “on” (air quotes with her fingers) you know, you’re talking to people. And I don’t want people to feel like they can’t approach me. So, I’m very approachable. And that is one of the things that I really do pride myself on. I don’t want anyone to feel like I ever don’t approach—you know, they can’t approach me. And so, one of our community members sent me this message recently and he said to me, “You know,” —his daughter was in the kids mentor, the girls mentor group—and he said “You know,” he goes “it was so cute. My daughter, we were talking about something.” And she’s also a Girl Scout. And he said “Yeah. She says ‘Well, I know the mayor.’” (both laugh) And he’s like “and she was saying this, you know, to my wife and, you know, to—we had friends over and she goes ‘yeah, I know the mayor.’” And he goes “It was the coolest thing because she really felt like she connected with me.” And I’m like “She did connect with me.” and I love that. I love that our kids in the community can feel like they connected with me because I feel like they will never probably forget that. And I oftentimes when I’m places—I actually did this a couple of weeks ago. I was getting some food to go from San Marcos Market. There was a mom and the daughter and I were just kind of talking. And I went out to my car, and I got her one of our city pens and then I said to her, and I say this very often—so, you know, our city emblem is a wayfinding sign, a compass—and I said to her, I said, “Do you know what this is?” I took it back to her. I said, “Do you know what this is?” And she goes, “No.” And I said, “Well, you’ll probably see it on all of our San Marcos signs. It’s a wayfinding sign, so it’s a compass.” And I said, “What it stands for is to discover life’s possibilities. And it’s going to be different for you than it is for me and for your little friends. Every single one of you has something that is your path to success.” And it’s not all—Everyone’s not going to go to a four-year college. I actually didn’t go to a four-year college. But everyone’s going to have a path to success. And I want everyone to know that they’ve got something inside of them that is what their path is and, you know, it might not be traditional. It might be traditional, but it might not. And I want everyone to know that there is their best self. There is a place that is a best self for every single person. And, again, it’s going to be very different for everyone. And, you know, my kids, my daughter just graduated from USD. My son went to Palomar. Totally different kids. Totally different people. But it doesn’t mean that one is going to be more successful than the other. And I want people to know that and believe that in themselves. I didn’t have parents that, you know, tried to make me feel like I could be successful in whatever I did. I honestly believe that my parents just wanted me to get married and have babies. And that was all they really hoped for me. And here I am. I’m the mayor of one of the best cities in the county. And I am so grateful for every moment that I get to spend in the community and encouraging people and spending my time letting them know that we believe in them. We care about them. That’s what my job is in a nutshell. And I know it is kind of back to a different point of what we were talking about. But the truth is every moment that you’re inspiring kids in the community is a win for me. SV: Yeah. RJ: So, those days are the best. And, you know, really I try to—I always carry my pens in the car. I’m like “Wait! Just wait!” I try to throw them, honestly, in my purse sometimes or in my pocket or whatever. I don’t always remember. But I think those moments when you just say that one thing, that could change the trajectory of someone’s life. And I know I remember my fourth-grade teacher, Mrs. Long. Here I am, you know, 56 years old almost. And I remember fourth grade, what she said to me. She said, “You can do bigger things than you think you can.” And I just know that that’s why I am the right person, right now, to do what I’m doing. SV: Yeah. RJ: And I’m so grateful for it. And I really have a hard time believing that I actually am doing this, but I love it. Most days I absolutely love it, SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And there are times when you’re tired and you go “I don’t want to get up today.” But then, you know, you have those days where you really just go “Okay. This is going to fill me in. Now, I can get through another week or whatever.” SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. I think that’s a great sentiment to end our interview on. I did want to ask you just one more question and that is if there’s anything that I should have asked you that I did not. RJ: No, because honestly, you know how I—I think you realize what my style is. (both laugh) if you don’t bring it up and I want to say it, I’ll just bring it in there. So, no, I don’t think so. SV: Okay. RJ: Yeah, I don’t think so. It’s funny. At KUSI, they’re like “Oh, well, we’ll just ask you one question. You just know what to do.” (both laugh) “You know what, you can just get everything you want to say in.” I’m like “Oh, okay. Thanks!” And, you know, by the way, when I was first elected as mayor, I was like “I can’t go on TV! I’m scared to death! I’m going to be sweating. I’m going to be stressed. I’m going to say wrong things.” Like now, I’m like, I laugh about it. You know, what I said. I’m like “Aw, geez. Two thousand twenty-five. What am I saying?” (raises her hands and chuckles) You know, but I used to be really hard on myself. But you know what? I don’t think people really want perfection. They want truth and honesty and authentic. SV: Yeah. RJ: And, you know, I try to be those things. I try to be, you know—I don’t even honestly think about it. I just try not to be guarded when I am—And, you know, if I show up to something, I don’t want to be the person that is like “Cheese!” (motions as if smiling widely for a camera) take a picture and then leave. Like, I’m there to do whatever you need me to do. Like if I need to take out trash, get icky stuff on my hands, I’m going to do it. Like, I want to be fully engaged when I show up to things. And I don’t think every politician is like that. I honestly wish there were more people, not exactly my style, but really having the reason as the reason, as the real reason, you know what I mean? Not like “Oh, I’m looking for my next thing, my next higher office.” (makes air quotes with hands) You know, I am planning on running for county supervisor next. But if I’m not elected, I’m totally fine. I’ve done good. I really do believe that. I really do believe I’ve done good. SV: Yeah. When are you running for county supervisor? RJ: In 2026, when this term is over. SV: Okay. RJ: So, not to worry. I’m not going to skip like in the middle of my term. So, Jim Desmond will be termed out and I’m running for that seat. And, you know, it’s a bigger job but, you know, the good thing is I will get paid for the hours that I work. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then I have staff. So, I think I can work on the same level, you know, put in the same amount but have more fruit because I have people working for me and I’m actually getting paid for it. So— SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, because we make less than $12,000 a year. I don’t know if you know that. SV: I didn’t know. RJ: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the best value in the county. (both laugh) Everyone’s like—Well, actually a bunch of my friends are like “You’re the hardest working mayor in the whole county!” And I go “Well, you know, yeah.” But, again, I’m not one of those people that shows up and like takes a picture and leaves. That’s just not my thing. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t do that. Anyway. Anything else? SV: No. Thank you so much for your time. RJ: Do you feel like you know me now? SV: I do! RJ: Okay, good. SV: I appreciate you spending some time— RJ: Yeah. SV: —talking with us today. And I think this is going to be really valuable to our students and researchers in the future. So, thank you. RJ: Well, again, you know our city has come such a long way. And we really do have a lot to be proud of. And I really do believe that people that live here and I hear it time and time again, showing up at their house and they’re like “I love it here.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: “I love this city. I really wouldn’t live anywhere else.” And, you know, even when they’re upset about things, they still don’t want to leave. They still are very happy. They’re like “But, it’s better than—” You know, blah, blah, blah. Or where else. So, I think, you know, we’ve built a great place. My first house was over behind Fire Station No. 2. (points in front and to the left with her left hand) And now I live over off of La Marie. (points behind her right shoulder with her right hand) So, I’ve had three houses over here. So, I’ve owned four houses in the city. SV: Nice. RJ: I’m definitely not leaving. SV: Yeah. RJ: I love it here. SV: Well, thank you, again. I appreciate everything. RJ: Of course, yeah. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 
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Title
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Jones, Rebecca. Interview April 12, 2023.
Description
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Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board.
In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos.
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SC027-034
Subject
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COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects
COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy
Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
San Diego Association of Governments
Women in politics
Date
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2023-04-12
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video
Creator
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Rebecca Jones
Contributor
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Sean Visintainer
Coverage
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San Diego County (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Rebecca Jones
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Madeleine Meyer
Interviewee
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Floyd Lai
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml
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student activism;advocacy;intersectionality;identity
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5.4 Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023 SC027-49 00:51:43 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights San Marcos (Calif.) student activism ; advocacy ; intersectionality ; identity Floyd Lai Madeleine Meyer Video LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.mp4 1:|12(14)|23(3)|42(9)|55(3)|67(18)|80(14)|100(16)|113(8)|124(10)|138(13)|151(17)|166(2)|179(9)|193(5)|208(8)|223(8)|234(15)|248(10)|261(9)|274(2)|287(7)|302(2)|315(5)|330(6)|343(6)|358(2)|372(14)|385(11)|399(4)|415(9)|431(8)|440(17)|452(13)|467(15)|482(5)|499(8)|513(10)|528(8)|543(9)|557(15)|571(6)|587(10)|601(16)|614(16)|632(16)|645(2)|661(9)|676(4)|691(11)|704(6)|717(11)|735(6)|736(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cdc9cc3afd3d45aade44b574d2e95ada.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Interviewer Madeleine Meyer introduces Floyd Lai, who was Director of the Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 to 2023. He talks briefly about his family background and childhood, as well as his identity as a Chinese American. Lai then describes his educational journey and how he originally went to school for environmental engineering. After a lackluster experience, Lai decided to switch career paths after interning at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irivine. 0 375 Student Activism and Social Justice Despite not having a specific background in courses related to activism or advocacy, Lai describes how the Cross-Cultural Center and different lived experiences impacted his perception. Self-exploration is defined as a major contributor to his understanding of accepting peoples differences. Lai also discusses how living as an Asian American has impacted his goals for activism and social justice. 0 648 The Earlier CCC Meyer asks Lai to remember the CCC when he first arrived in 2011. Back then, the University Student Union had not yet been built, and several student organizations such as the Black Student Center were not yet founded. Coming from University of California Irvine, with one of the first Cross-Cultural Centers, Lai describes how his previous experiences impacted his work at the CCC. As the center expanded, Lai recalls more and more programs and spaces began ; including the Activist Lab, Critical Cougars, and others. Through all of these changes, Lai considers the student body to be more transformative. Every year brings new students, new ideas, and new opportunities for growth. 0 1034 The CCC Programs Lai briefly describes a few of the programs that the CCC offered throughout his tenure. Lai also identifies the four specific areas of focus: developing cultural competency, activism, advocacy, and critical engagement across social identity groups. Some of the programs that facilitate these goals include: Critical Cougars: Unlearn, Relarn, the Activist Lab, as well as the expansion of identity-based student organizations such as an APIDA (Asian Pacific Islander Desi American) center at CSUSM. 0 1540 Personal Growth from the CCC Lai considers the role that the CCC has impacted his personal and professional expansion. Beginning with an internship, and later six years of work, at the University of California's Cross-Cultural Center, Lai describes how different programs, roles, and students have impacted him. He attributes his work at the CCC to expanding his understanding of disabilities, for instance. 0 1810 Challenges at the CCC Considering the different challenges in his tenure as Director of the CCC, Lai recalls how the pandemic forces the entire campus to switch online, and how well it was handled. He also discusses the pushback against Critical Race Theory, as well as to different outreach programs. Overall, Lai stresses his goal in educating the next generation, and that challenges have not deterred him. 0 2194 The CCC Coexistence with Student Identity Spaces As more and more student identity-based spaces open, Meyer questions Lai regarding the role of the CCC. Lai addresses that the CCC has continued to coexist with the expansion of other student centers because of its role in providing a space for those students who do not feel represented elsewhere. Currently, with approval of an APIDA center, Lai acknowledges that the role of the CCC will change as its demographics shift, yet the purpose to advocate for activism and inclusivity will remain. 0 2643 The Future of the CCC Lai considers the role of the CCC in the future, in an ideal world. He considers the financial aspects of being a student, and how the CCC could better facilitate student-incomes. Regarding disabled students, he also considers the potential for programs that coexist and yet go beyond those offered with Disabled Student Services (DSS). 0 2895 Some Favorite Memories From his time as Director, Lai recalls some favorite memories. Working with different student graduate assistants are some of his highlights. He specifically enjoyed watching his first-class of graduates, wherein he began working with a freshman class and witnessed their collegiate careers and graduation. 0 Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan . So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers . And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades ; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM Cross-Cultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened . There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more --trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe & ; Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe & ; Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity ; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) but- Lai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around , um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less--It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin
/x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know , like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin
/x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American ; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin
/x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails ; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-- Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-- students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation--particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023.
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Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another.
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SC027-49
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Civil rights
Education, Higher
Human rights
Racism -- California -- Irvine
Student Success
University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center
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2023-04-10
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video
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Floyd Lai
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Madeleine Meyer
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Irvine (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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Floyd Lai
Activists and activism
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
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Oral Histories
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Ryan Willis
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Ilima Kam Martinez
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5.4 Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-027 00:53:41 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) San Diego County (Calif.) Ilima Kam Martinez Ryan Willis m4a MartinezIlimaKam_WillisRyan_2023-04-07 1:|29(6)|40(14)|68(17)|104(25)|104(118)|137(6)|149(1)|190(31)|190(159)|190(294)|207(6)|223(2)|229(35)|238(41)|246(1)|263(55)|280(4)|310(42)|313(55)|319(32)|327(97)|346(16)|366(8)|368(24)|377(4)|409(5)|416(10)|419(98)|419(213)|419(310)|430(7)|450(57)|461(20)|474(17)|480(77)|521(19)|526(2)|534(71)|534(185)|545(47)|557(11)|570(23)|585(3)|593(24)|595(82)|651(8)|663(22)|672(4)|688(103)|688(215)|715(19)|732(4)|743(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5fd0201c55bc12a13a23cf3cc706c049.m4a Other audio 30 Chapter 1: Where were you born? Ilima explains that she was born in San Diego, California and was raised locally in both Oceanside and Carlsbad. California ; carlsbad ; oceanside ; San Diego 44 Chapter 2: Childhood and Family Ilima speaks about growing up in predominantly Caucasian communities and schools. She then talks about her family including her father, who was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor, Hawaii by the time Ilima was born. Since her father was retired, Ilima spent most of her childhood being raised by her father. Childhood ; father ; pearl harbor 147 Chapter 3: Did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Any interest living there permanently? Ilima explains that she spent many summers with her two half-sisters and dad in Hawaii. She then admits that she always thought she would eventually live in Hawaii full time, and still hopes for this in the future. family ; Hawaii ; summer 211 Chapter 4: Any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Ilima's dad was very influential in her life, as she explains that he was always present growing up and acknowledges that he was working at Pear Harbor at the time it was attacked by Japan on December 7, 1941. bombing ; Pearl Harbor ; WWII 305 Chapter 5: Did your father ever share his experience at Pearl Harbor? Ilima explains she did not even know her father was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor at the time the island of Oahu was bombed until his 80th birthday party. Her father would sometimes begin talking about it, but never elaborated on the experience, always staying modest and humble. Civil Engineer ; Pearl Harbor ; Tennis Instructor 449 Chapter 6: When did you first take an interest in Hawaiian culture? Since she was the youngest of her siblings and the only one not born in Hawaii, Ilima always yearned to be connected to the island and the culture. She did not fully recognize the uniqueness of her heritage until she was in middle school when she saw a hula performance,which propelled her on her journey of learning hula, serving as an anchor in her life. Hawaiian culture ; hula ; ukulele 619 Chapter 7: Teaching hula and opening her own hālau Ilima shares that she opened up her own hālau, a traditional school in Vista, CA. She then explains that hālau is viewed as a place for family in Hawaiian culture, and how hula operates like a family. hālau ; hula ; vista 719 Chapter 8: Passion for elders (kūpuna) and volunteer work Before the COVID-19 pandemic, Ilima volunteered at the Oceanside Senior Center teaching elders (kūpuna) how to dance hula. She explains why Hawaiians hold their kūpuna in very high regard. hula ; kūpuna ; Oceanside 794 Chapter 9: Can you elaborate more on the importance of hula? Ilima expands on why hula is so important in Hawaiian culture as it encompasses mental, physical, and spiritual components.She then admits that hula makes a positive impact on elders (kūpuna). body ; hula ; kūpuna ; mind ; spirit 901 Chapter 10: The challenges of Covid-19 Ilima dives into her own personal struggles with the COVID-19 pandemic and the importance of being together in Hawaiian culture. Covid-19 ; hālau ; hānai ; Hawaiian community 1043 Chapter 11: Influential hula instructors Ilima talks about one of her mentors, Kawaikapuokalani Hewett, an enormous figure in Hawaiian culture hula ; Kawaikapuokalani Hewett ; kumu ; mentor 1337 Chapter 12: Misconceptions about Hawaiians Ilima addresses misconceptions of Hawaiians, and that Hawaiians identify themselves by their lineage and ancestors and not by blood quantum. misconceptions ; stereotypes 1504 Chapter 13: When did you begin spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaiian culture? Ilima knew as a young adult that she was going to make it her mission to practice Hawaiian culture despite not being born and raised on ancestral land, and wanted to provide other Hawaiians that also did not live in Hawaii a platform to partake in Hawaiian traditions. This leads Ilima to discuss further her motivation in opening her hālau, creating an accessible and affordable place for all to learn. Ilima introduces her nonprofit organization, UMEKE, which provides access to Hawaiian culture such as hula in an authentic way for all, regardless of ethnicity or race. accessible ; hālau ; hawaiians ; hula ; UMEKE 1826 Chapter 14: When did you first establish UMEKE? Ilima founded her nonprofit in October 2021. 2021 ; nonprofit ; UMEKE 1870 Chapter 15: Was there anyone that helped you get UMEKE up and running? Ilima has a huge support system, especially elders and female role models within the Hawaiian community that have all played a significant role in the success of UMEKE. Native Hawaiian Community ; role models ; UMEKE 1922 Chapter 16: What are you most proud of to this point with UMEKE? Ilima states that she is most proud of a grant that her organization created to introduce hula (and ukulele) to a local elementary school that has a large Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander population. Accessibility ; Kids ; Native Hawaiian ; Pacific Islander 2021 Chapter 17: Filing a need in the community There has been an abundance of opportunities presented to Ilima and the UMEKE team since 2021, which Ilima believes demonstrates the need for her organization within the San Diego community, and hopes for projects to continue to float her way. goals ; UMEKE 2127 Chapter 18: Pursuing an education at CSUSM Ilima explains why her children played a vital role in her decision to attend California State University San Marcos, and why she decided to pursue a bachelor's degree in indigenous anthropology. She recounts her time and experience in school as a " ; non-traditional student" ; and the challenges she faced, along with gaining a new perspective. CSUSM ; indigenous anthropology ; Kumeyaay ; Luiseño ; Non-traditional student 2512 Chapter 19: Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival Ilima talks about the upcoming Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander festival where she is the co-creator. Ilima elaborates on her multi-ethnic background and wanting the community to know that this event is for everyone and to learn about API (Asian & ; Pacific Islander) culture. Asian ; Festival ; Pacific Islander ; Southern California 2871 Chapter 20: How many cultures represented? How did you go about contacting these different groups? Ilima estimates over twenty different cultures represented at the API festival. Thanks to her close relations within the Pacific Islander and dance community, it was easy for Ilima to get other groups to attend and participate. African American Community ; arts ; Pacific Islander Community ; San Diego 3038 Chapter 21: Getting involved and growing the community Ilima stresses that anyone from any background or ethnicity would be a welcome ally in promoting Hawaiian and indigenous culture within the community. ally ; allyship ; community 3098 Chapter 22: What are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy in life? Ilima's children are what she is most proud of in her life, as she has been able to instill and teach her children about Hawaiian culture and they will be able to pass those traditions on to future generations. Children ; future generations ; Hawaiian traditions ; knowledge sound Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Ryan Willis: Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. Ilima Kam Martinez: Thank you for the invitation. Willis: Of course. So, let' ; s go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born? Martinez: I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area. Willis: Perfect. And if you don' ; t mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like growing up for you? Martinez: It' ; s just-it' ; s always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I would' ; ve say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I-- attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background, um, I, uh-- let me think. Willis: Yeah, yeah. Take your time < ; Martinez laughs> ; . Not a problem. Martinez: Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life. Two sisters, two older sisters. I' ; m the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired. So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him. Willis: Okay. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That' ; s really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Martinez: I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father' ; s first marriage. And, when I say half-sisters, that' ; s just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-- Willis: Gotcha. Martinez: Hawaii. Willis: Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we' ; ll just, you know, visit here and there? Martinez: I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I' ; m not totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back there one day. Willis: That' ; s awesome. Yeah. I' ; ve always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Martinez: I would have to say my dad. Willis: Your dad. Martinez: Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he wasn' ; t-- he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example. Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know, verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood. Willis: Right. Yeah. That' ; s awesome. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place? Martinez: He was mm-hmm. Willis: Wow. So what kind of stories did he have < ; Martinez laughs> ; regarding that? Or was that something that he kind of just didn' ; t like to talk about? Martinez: He, it' ; s funny because I actually didn' ; t even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That' ; s what I always thought that he was. < ; laughs> ; To me, that' ; s what my dad did for a living. Willis: Right. Martinez: Oh, he' ; s a tennis instructor! < ; laughs> ; . And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I' ; m already a young adult at that point, right? At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um, very modest. And so, it probably shouldn' ; t have surprised me, but yeah. He didn' ; t talk about much about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell me what I was meant to know. Willis: Right. Martinez: What he felt that I should know. Willis: Yeah. If you didn' ; t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- < ; laughs> ; Martinez: Right. Willis: Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn' ; t want to go there. Martinez: Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized, always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him. Willis: I see. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That' ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. < ; laughs> ; Willis: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in your life, or even with a career? Martinez: I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego. All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it' ; s really interesting because what I didn' ; t know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn' ; t realize was very special and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn' ; t even realize that' ; s what it was until, until later on. Right? Just, you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a " ; slap < ; unclear> ; guitarist." ; He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty, I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don' ; t know, there was just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but again, I mean, I' ; m in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And, and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it' ; s been a lifelong journey of learning ever since. And just something that I' ; ve always felt, so it, it' ; s been the constant in my life right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um-- it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me feel safe. Willis: Right. Martinez: Yeah. Willis: That' ; s so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually teach it as well. Martinez: I do < ; laughs> ; , I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it' ; s been, it' ; s been wonderful. Um, I think for those that have not had experience in hālau it' ; s, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it' ; s a school of hula, but really it' ; s in, its, in its foundational form it' ; s about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for < ; laughs> ; , you know, teaching hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students. Willis: Right. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That' ; s awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct? Martinez: Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my dad. I think a lot of things < ; laughs> ; will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver, kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that' ; s one of the many unique things about Hawaiian culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-- Willis: And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you' ; ve really enjoyed teaching the hula to seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you' ; re just kind of focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Martinez: Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I' ; ve learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you' ; re, when I' ; m teaching with kūpuna, having those three facets ; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such, has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals together, which we do a lot, < ; laughs> ; The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do? Willis: Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding. Martinez: Mm-hmm. It' ; s Extremely rewarding. Willis: So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before Covid- Martinez: Before Covid. Willis: And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren' ; t able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you. Martinez: < ; laughs> ; . It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would' ; ve thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and didn' ; t hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that' ; s what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn' ; t even, like, < ; Willis laughs> ; we couldn' ; t touch- Willis: Right. Martinez: We couldn' ; t- Willis: Six feet. Martinez: Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that was pretty tough. Willis: That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I want to give you a hug, but I guess let' ; s give you an air hug for now. Martinez: Yeah, yeah. Willis: But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-- Martinez: Yeah. Willis: Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that? Martinez: I couldn' ; t single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn' ; t credit just, just one. They all affected me in different ways, but equally impactful ways. I' ; ll note that, so I was, < ; unclear> ; is the formal graduation ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it' ; s like it' ; s a method of training, right? To become a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under, he' ; s, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you know, my life like, that' ; s just, it' ; s just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he' ; s so gracious and generous with his, with his ' ; ike or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know, rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right? In the past. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: And the fact that, that Kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students. Willis: Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can' ; t remember exactly because he' ; s very well known in Hawaii. He is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it' ; s actually kind of interesting cause I feel like it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And ironically, he, and I can' ; t obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister < ; laughs> ; in Hawaii, it was the same street that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it' ; s just-- Willis: Oh wow. How convenient is that? Martinez: It' ; s just, yeah, < ; laughs> ; . I' ; m going to say coincident, there' ; s no such thing as coincidences. Willis: Right. No, I agree. < ; Martinez laughs> ; . Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions that you really feel passionate about? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that' ; s why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture. Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in-- that really dictate, the belief systems of Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn' ; t, I, yeah. I don' ; t think, yeah. < ; laughs> ; Willis: No, that' ; s perfect. Do you think there' ; s any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes < ; Martinez laughs> ; from your experiences? Martinez: Yeah. < ; more laughter> ; . Yeah. There' ; s, I wouldn' ; t even know where to begin < ; laughs> ; . Willis: < ; laughs> ; I know it' ; s kind of a loaded question. Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I-- Hmm, Hmm. Well, I' ; ll address one thing only because it' ; s fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently was I often get asked, " ; Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it' ; s interesting when folks ask this question because it' ; s almost like they' ; re putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don' ; t understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our ancestors. Right? It' ; s not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I' ; ll just leave it at that < ; laughs> ; . Willis: That' ; s perfect. I appreciate that. Didn' ; t mean to put you on the spot. Martinez: No, no, it' ; s a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often misunderstood. Because there' ; s plenty. There' ; s plenty. Willis: Yeah. Understood. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So this next question' ; s gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about- Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaii? Martinez: I' ; m sorry, can you ask--? Willis: Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young adult, when you decided, okay, I' ; m gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the traditions of Hawaiian culture? Martinez: Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can' ; t recall when I know I was younger, but I can' ; t recall the exact time. But as an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in diaspora, right? Who doesn' ; t, who isn' ; t living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes classes are not affordable to, Native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a financial barrier. And that' ; s always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think that' ; s where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don' ; t live-- Because of our locale, there are often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don' ; t have the education to be teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that' ; s not to say that it' ; s, you know I' ; m sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they' ; re-- In San Diego in particular, the native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it' ; s, that it' ; s coming from the native Hawaiian community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very popular travel destination. Right? Um, so-- Willis: Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization? Martinez: We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our capacity, and I' ; ve just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able to-- Willis: And you are the founder, you are the president. It' ; s really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one that was like, let' ; s do this, let' ; s push forward. Martinez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Willis: Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it pretty much your project and your project only? Martinez: Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don' ; t even realize they were part of it. They were part of it. < ; laughs> ; And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to keep on that pathway that they' ; ve, that they' ; ve blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm. Willis: Right. So obviously it' ; s still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward? Martinez: Oh, gosh. I' ; m at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would' ; ve really loved at that age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than my home, among my friends, I think that would' ; ve been really impactful for me as a young person. And so-- Willis: Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on me so that' ; s a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals in mind or is it really just continue to do what you' ; re doing and hope more people hop on? Martinez: < ; laughs> ; Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it' ; s so interesting because when this group of us set out to start UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you' ; re like, " ; Ohh!," ; you know. < ; laughs> ; We weren' ; t sure how successful we would be, but it' ; s so interesting because opportunities have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn' ; t know exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their projects. And so it' ; s, that' ; s really exciting because it' ; s like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You know- < ; laughs> ; Willis: < ; laughs> ; It' ; s all for a reason. Martinez: It, yes. Yeah. Willis: That' ; s really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum? Martinez: I am. Willis: So you earned your bachelor' ; s degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: In 2019? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor' ; s degree? What kind of pushed you in that direction? Martinez: That' ; s a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn' ; t have a four-year degree. Right. So I was very, very, very < ; laughs> ; , persistent that my children go to a four-year college, and I realized that I couldn' ; t preach < ; laughs> ; higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it myself and so I did < ; laughter> ; . Yeah. Willis: That' ; s very admirable. It' ; s, it' ; s not easy, especially when you' ; re a parent. I can attest to that. It is not easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that' ; s the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes? Martinez: It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children, I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn' ; t in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn' ; t, it was challenging maybe logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially this younger generation! They' ; re amazing, you know, < ; laughter> ; and getting invigorated by this young energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you' ; re going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! < ; laughs> ; , Willis: Right. Not everybody can say that, so that' ; s impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new perspective after graduating? Martinez: Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is that outside perspective, right? Because we' ; re sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only see what' ; s happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of paper < ; laughs> ; . Willis: Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention? Martinez: Oh my goodness. I wouldn' ; t say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures, particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That' ; s with belief systems, that' ; s with, our, our medical systems, how we view health. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I' ; m not sure that I < ; laughs> ; answered your question. Willis: Yeah, that' ; s perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality? Martinez: Um, I can say I can' ; t take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a co-creator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so, um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I' ; m Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I' ; m also Japanese and Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County that it hasn' ; t seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: The API [Asian & ; Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we' ; re quite underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what' ; s the word? Insular. Yeah. And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival' ; s for everyone. You know, no matter what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be able to come together and learn about API culture. Willis: Right. Gotcha. Martinez: So-- Willis: Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping for? Was it a nice turnout? Martinez: Well, it' ; s actually in three weeks. Willis: Oh, my mistake. < ; laughs> ; Martinez: < ; laughs> ; . So we' ; re in the thick of it. Willis: Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. < ; laughs> ; My understanding is that it already happened earlier this year. Martinez: No worries. Willis: Okay. So it' ; s happening in three weeks from now! Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Okay. That' ; s awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big turnout? Martinez: Well, that' ; s what we' ; re hoping for! < ; laughs> ; Willis: Of course. Martinez: Um, but as far as how it' ; s unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it' ; s evolved. The, the, the vision has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop [Korean pop music] as a great example, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be considered a traditional art. So that' ; s, I think I' ; m really excited to see what some of these performers are bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that' ; s gonna be a really fun aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival. Willis: Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be represented at this event? Martinez: We have about, um, over 20. Willis: Wow. Martinez: Yeah. We have about over 20. Willis: That' ; s impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach out to them? How does that usually work? Martinez: You know I, I' ; m really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I' ; m really fortunate to be able to reach out to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so' ; s performing, and then another one. And so I wasn' ; t as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, < ; unclear> ; and, Lion Dance, and, because it' ; s just, we are all, we' ; re all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn' ; t take much of an ask. Folks really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this. Willis: I can imagine. That' ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and promote in that area? Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, oh, I' ; m sorry. Can you repeat that again? < ; laughs> ; Willis: So I guess what I' ; m really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you? Martinez: Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that' ; s the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it' ; s that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in, in the mission they' ; re absolutely willing to just jump in < ; laughs> ; and do whatever needs to be done. Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy and-- Willis: Come on down! Martinez: Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community. Willis: Right. That' ; s so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children, or is there something else? Martinez: < ; laughs> ; Uh I think, it' ; s my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment. < ; laughs> ; Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my children. And, knowing that I know that they' ; re gonna move forward and pass that on to their children, that' ; s, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I' ; m gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions. Willis: Yeah. That' ; s fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to mention? Maybe something I didn' ; t ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? < ; laughs> ; Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing < ; laughs> ; Willis: Okay. Yeah, no that' ; s perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the community in general. So thank you so much for your time. Martinez: Yeah, thank you. Willis: Alright. < ; Martinez laughs> ; Now I' ; m gonna go ahead and stop the recording. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
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Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward.
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SC027-027
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California State University San Marcos
COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts
COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Hawaii -- Culture
Hawaii -- Social life and customs
Hula (Dance)
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2023-04-07
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audio
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San Diego County (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
Hawaiian
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Ilima Kam Martinez
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Ilima Kam Martinez
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Ryan Willis
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Sound
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Sean Visintainer
Interviewee
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Jake Northington
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.xml
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art
student
representation
Black art
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5.4 Oral history of Jake Northington, November 22, 2019 SC027-13 1:19:31 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM Artists, Black California State University San Marcos -- Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Photography art student representation Black art Jake Northington Sean Visintainer Video NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.mp4 1:|22(12)|38(4)|55(4)|71(13)|88(2)|109(7)|123(8)|138(12)|156(3)|178(2)|193(4)|206(6)|229(13)|242(7)|255(3)|273(10)|291(6)|316(4)|331(7)|346(15)|363(13)|378(10)|400(10)|412(9)|423(9)|434(11)|447(1)|458(6)|471(11)|484(3)|496(10)|513(2)|528(7)|539(12)|550(3)|561(6)|574(2)|587(1)|599(6)|612(13)|631(3)|642(14)|654(4)|668(3)|682(3)|695(6)|715(9)|727(9)|741(14)|755(2)|770(6)|783(1)|796(7)|811(1)|826(6)|836(11)|854(10)|866(1)|887(7)|902(3)|931(10)|943(6)|956(13)|968(9)|996(8)|1012(5)|1030(11)|1053(2)|1072(3)|1084(8)|1104(6)|1134(2)|1156(11)|1169(13)|1218(2)|1233(9)|1250(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d2ed47e7379313178c08129ae5d93fcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction / Growing up and photography influence Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer and I'm interviewing Jake Northington as part of the Cal State San Marcos University Archive's Oral History Project. The interview took place on Friday, November 22nd, 2019 at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. Jake, thank you very much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about some of your formative years, especially how they relate to your passion for photography. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your childhood and early adult life. And I wanted to start off just by asking, where were you born? Jake Northington: That I don't know the answer to. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I grew up as an orphan and I lived in many cities, many states. Uh, I've seen a couple of birth certificates. So, not really sure, but, I grew up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's why I grew up. Visintainer: So you grew up in East St. Louis. Was there any ways in which your childhood or your upbringing influenced your photography? Northington: Uh, yes. I would say yes. You know, uh, if you've ever heard of a guy by the name of Gordon Parks. So throughout the fifties and sixties, he photographed the civil rights movement and a lot of activists socially. So, seeing those type of pictures and watching movies produced by Spike Lee and other people through Black films, they would use a lot of still shots to enter into the movie or to exit out of the movie. So, the beginning and the ending to bookcase the movies, they would show a lot of still shots from Gordon Parks. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: You know, so that was probably the first time I saw images like that and the images Gordon Parks takes in particular of Black people living everyday life, you know? So, and that introduced me to other photographers that particularly took pictures of Black people that you would never see that I wouldn't see in magazines or on TV or anything like that. So. Visintainer: And when you say he took pictures of Black people living everyday life, are there any images that you recall that really stand out to you? Northington: Yes. Uh, he has a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King smiling together at a banquet function. And it is like [19]66 or [19]67. And these are two people that have polarizing views of what Black people should do in America socially. So, you have one guy who wants to fully work with the system and you have one guy who wants to fully oppose the system. So, you have two different dynamics at play from the same, uh, atmosphere from the same starting point growing up at the same time yet they have two different ways of going about it. And then you see these people cordial and friendly. So that's an amazing picture for people in the Black community to see that you can have opposing views and still work for the same progression of your people. So. Visintainer: Okay. Thank you. Did he take pictures as well of less famous Black people? Northington: Yes. Yes, because that's, again, the start. So, from the research, it seems that he took a lot of pictures of jazz musicians. He even did short films himself, you know? So it was all encompassing. He became more famous for the photography, but he also did films. I believe he wrote a book as well. And, uh, so it's, it's a little, you know, all-encompassing to produce an entire artwork with the varying degrees and various wrinkles. So, it's not just one avenue and that's kind of the way I take my artwork, because photography's just one element of it. I didn't start off taking pictures. I started off drawing pictures. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I draw still and that's still the basis of it all is drawing. So, I would consider taking pictures, just drawing with the camera. Jake Northington discusses growing up in East St. Louis and how his upbringing influenced his photography. Northington explains how Black photographer Gordon Parks, who documented the civil rights movement, was an inspiration to his work. Black photography ; East Saint Louis (Ill.) ; Gordon Parks ; Photography 233 Introduction to photography/ Studying at CSUSM Visintainer: Alright. So when did you make the transition from drawing into photography? Northington: Just three years ago, in one class here at this school. I took a--it's a digital photography class taught by Nancy diBenedetto. She's in the Navy and she was an adjunct professor at that moment. I don't know if that may be in her second or third year teaching here. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, in, uh, she thought I took pretty good pictures. So she gave me a few pointers. She kind of showed us a lot of stuff in the class. You know, we did so many field trips to go to different arenas. We went to farms, we went to parks and, you know, on campus and she put us everywhere. And then we went to see an photography exhibit downtown at Balboa Park they had a photography exhibit and the whole class had to go there. So, to see the photos you take and then be able to compare them to professional photography. It gives you, you know, something to look for or it allows you to see things you could correct yourself, you know? So, and that's how I kind of see photography, you making your own corrections, you know? And then if you're satisfied, then it's a good photo for you. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Because they can all be looked at so differently. So, that's how hard is. Visintainer: Was it intimidating when you first started out comparing yourself to people in exhibitions? Northington: Not at all, not at all because I'm a person that always went to art museums. I went to plenty of exhibitions prior to this class, you know? Art is my whole world. So, I see everything as art: cars, clothes, shoes, a pencil, you know? I used to play with my mechanical pencils and take them apart, put them back together to see how it was put together, why they chose these colors, why they have the writing on it, you know? And for me, all of that is art because somebody with an artistic mind had to design your mechanical pencil, your eraser, your--your steering wheel on your car. So, it all plays a part. So, I wouldn't consider my stuff in a comparison measure to be less than it's just, this is the way I see it. That's the way they see it. There's two different eyes behind the camera. So, I wouldn't do that, but I'd look at their work and see like, “Okay, there's more clarity here, there's more depth.” There's more layers to their photography versus me taking a picture of a person. And there's just a wall in the background. There's no layers. So, I would be able to get some type of a scope of these are other things that are possible with the photos and then talking about the mood of the person. Can I really see the mood? I got more of that from watching modeling shows, you know? Of how your eyes can give away a smile or your eyes can give away a frown without the facial expression. So, then I have to input that into the photo. And now I'm trying to communicate that with the person in the photo to get the look I'm looking for. So, you know, it's a little bit of elements all over the place to put it all together. Jake Northington discusses studying photography at California State University San Marcos (CSUSM). Through a photography course, Northington was exposed to various arenas and exhibitions related to the medium. He explains how art is a part of our world and the elements that comprise work of art. California State University San Marcos ; Digital photography ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) 412 Photography techniques / Mentoring students Visintainer: Okay. And do you started off with drawing, so I'm assuming that your experience and your learning as you started off with drawing, transferred into photography pretty well as well, but I was curious, were there any specific lessons or techniques that you took from your background in drawing and art that transferred directly into photography? Northington: Yes. The biggest thing I would say is filling up the space. So, before I started taking pictures, I would see a lot of people take pictures on social media and all these other things. I'm not a picture person myself. So, I don't just sit down and take pictures of myself or other people. I didn't-- I never did that, but I would do it mentally. So, you know, and you would see a picture or a background mentally before I even had the camera. So, I'm already doing it in my head. And then, uh, you know, people would, most people do it. They go, “Oh, that's a nice sunset.” Or, “Look at those mountains.” You're taking a visual picture in your head, you know, and this is why they can sell their painting at Marshalls. You go to Marshalls and you pick up the painting of the canvas of the Carlsbad beach area or the pier in Oceanside. You can sell that because it's a nice visual and you just capture that. And then, uh, I think everybody does that to a different degree. So again, picking up the camera, I've already had that exercise in my mind. So, from drawing, I got filling up the picture because I started drawing cartoons. So now I come in class and I'm taking art class. The professor would say, “You have to fill up the background, it's empty,” you know? You make it too one-dimensional or two-dimensional with no layers. You want to make it pop. You want to make it stand out. You want--so you need to add three, four, five, ten dimensions, whatever. Keep adding layers. So, filling up the whole sheet of paper and making an entire scene is what I took over to the photography side from, from drawing. Visintainer: Okay. And that's interesting. And when you mentioned cartoons, especially, so when I think of cartoons, I think of panels. Northington: Yes. Vistintainer: And I think of you know, word balloons and things that do fill up a panel there. Um, but oftentimes there's real kind of blank or not defined backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Do you try to do something similar with your portraiture, especially? Or do you utilize the backgrounds, uh, in a way that would be maybe different from how--? Northington: I would say it's both and it all depends on the intent of that photo. So, if the intent of that photo includes the background, then I'll make the black background a little more apparent and then if it doesn't, then you kind of shoot an aperture mode to, you know, to fizzle out the background, you know? And that's like a new app on everybody's phone, everybody's shooting in portrait mode on their, on their iPhone and it'll fuzz out the background, you know? So that's, if that's necessary for what I'm trying to get across then yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: If not, I'll really include the background, you know? Specifically with the photos you've seen with the sunlight actually being included in the background though, it's ninety-three million miles away so they say. Visintainer: Alright. Um, I think we've already covered a little bit about your instruction with tutoring, or tutoring that you had as well as your background in art. So, I kind of wanted to move on and ask you kind of in a reverse question, have you taken on any students or mentees yourself? Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Or in, so what advice did you give them? Northington: The same advice I get. And you know, one of the bigger things that probably the number one piece of advice I got from Nancy diBenedetto is just keep taking pictures. You have to make all the mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over. And then next year and I take ten thousand more pictures. I'm comparing my pictures now to my pictures, you know? And that's an easier fix and it allows you to grow within yourself versus I'm going to compare my pictures to somebody that's already in the magazine shooting for Getty Photos. You don't want to, you know, that's a big jump and you may never get there. And then understanding how much equipment plays a role. You could shoot with a, you know, a Polaroid camera from some convenience store that you got from CVS versus shooting with a $10,000 camera, you know, from Best Buy. That same person is going to produce a different quality of photo just from the equipment alone. So, learning that, you know, uh, learning, setting the background, and implanting the person versus trying to take the person and implant the background, you know? That was a big thing I learned too. So, that's something I teach some people. I have about four or five right now, just picked up a new guy, Shamar. So, I got about four or five students here at school that I kind of help out and assist with all the things that I've been told. And then I try to help them just develop their own way, you know? Don't take pictures like me, take pictures like you, you know? Don't become a copycat. You see what you saw in it. And I'll just try to help with, you know, technical things, things that may stand out to make this possibly not as good of a picture. But I can't help you with what you saw, what you see, what you want to produce. I don't want to touch that because that's for you. Visintainer: Okay. There were a couple things I wanted to come back to. Um, one of them is you mentioned you got to make the same mistakes over and over and over. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some mistakes in photography that you made over and over and over before realizing--? Northington: Lighting. Visintainer: Lighting? Northington: Lighting. Uh, there's so many small things. There may be twenty-five or thirty things you have to do before you take a picture. And if you forget one of them, you'll be mad once you go to editing, you know? You walk outside, the sunlight is in one space in the sky. If you forget that and throw it out of your mind, then you're going to have a bunch of dark shadows on everybody's face. So, unless that was what you was exactly trying to do, then you kind of threw a lot of your pictures off. You want the light on them, you know. Learning the red, the orange and the blue and the white lights, you know, using the application on your actual camera, the white balance, you know, that's something that I didn't even pay attention to. Even though Nancy taught us in class, I spent a lot of months not using my white balance and you'll get a yellowish undertone to people's skin and the colors scheme will be off. And now in editing, you have to go through and try to mute all that yellowish and greenish because you didn't do a proper white balance, you know? So stuff like that, I had to waste a bunch of photos and SD cards because I didn't, you know, take that into account. So where are my light source come from? Having enough light for the individual. Focus--my focus points, you know, the different variations you could, adjust your camera to, you know? Shooting in portrait or shooting in, you know, a fast pace or a slow pace. Understanding that, uh, your camera only captures so much depending on the lens. So, if I have a $700 lens, I could do a little bit more than that standard lens you come with, but I have a $2,000 lens I can do even a little bit more. It allows for even more mistakes because that vibration control works a lot better in the $2,000 lens than it does in that standard lens you get. So, understanding all of those things before I even take the photo. Using a tripod to take photos versus handheld, because nobody can sit still, you have a heartbeat, your body can’t sit still. You have to hold your breath and pause everything. You know, that’s just like, you know? Anybody that does weaponry, you learn the same thing. When you have to shoot a rifle on a range, you have to hold your breath, squeeze in between your breath, because that’s the only still you’re going to get. It’s the same thing. I think that’s what you call it, “shooting with the camera,” cause yeah, it’s some of the same techniques. So, anybody that shoots rifles, it’s kind of the similar techniques. For putting it’s a similar technique. So, shooting free throws, similar technique, you know, those positions, you have to pause that breath. So, all of those things at once before you even take the picture, if you rush through it, you just wasted some time. I had to do it. And then I look back at my photos from the beginning. Because I even have a book that's not out for anybody to see because it's a book of mistakes, you know? And I keep it and I have it in my room and I look at it from time to time. I can't--this is where it started, you know? A lot of blown out pictures because it's too much light, a lot of yellow skin because no white balance, a lot of blurry pictures because my arm is moving too much. And I have to keep it to look at my mistakes to remind myself, to keep all of these things in mind before I shoot the picture. So, you know, that’s, it’s a part of it and it’s--it's needed. Visintainer: Yeah. Do you keep all of your photos that you take? Northington: Yes. So, I have quite a few hard drives so, and the only thing I don't like is they usually last, you know, four or five years and you got to switch them up again. Don't like that, but you know, because you have to keep paying for that over and over and over, but yeah, you should. I would tell people to keep them all because if you get rid of your mistakes, you can't see them. It's hard to improve like that. So, unless you’re always going to have a teacher right ahead of you constantly doing, you know. So it’s hard to self-improve without a constant teacher or a constant reminder of the things you need to work on. So, and I would employ people to do that on their own by always having a teacher because you’re being guided a little too much. Take your own steps. So. Jake Nortington explains different photography techniques, such as adding layers and defined backgrounds. Northington also discusses mentoring students and the advice he lends to them about creating art and photography. He stresses the importance of making mistakes and learning from one’s mistakes to his student mentees. Art ; Drawing ; Mentoring ; Photography ; Photography--Techniques ; Students 1005 Selecting photography subjects Visintainer: I think that's good advice. There was another thing I wanted to come back to and that was, you mentioned importing your subjects into your backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: And forgive me if I'm not phrasing exactly how you did. And I thought that was really interesting because you do portraiture, you go out, you look for people that I assume that are, that you want to have that are subjects. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of how you choose your subjects. Northington: (laughs) Yeah. Visintainer: And then I guess the follow up, you know, beyond the process of how you choose your subjects, then how do you insert them into the backgrounds? Do you choose your backgrounds and look for a subject or, what do you do? Northington: I don’t even decide, it decides itself. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, just being a student, you have to walk around campus, you take enough classes, you’ll go into every building on campus. So, been here almost four years now. So, I’ve been in every building. As I’m always walking, I’m seeing these scenes, making mental notes. I want a picture right there. I want a picture right there. Mental note--it just built this bridge across the street. I need a picture right there from the bridge. So, you know, and there's a lot of tall buildings here. So, it gives for a lot of angles. A lot of birds-eye-views and worms-eye-views. So, it is a lot, it's enough layers here, even in a compact campus. So, all of those backgrounds are constantly piling up. So now I have all these backgrounds. Northington: Now it's about the people. Who do I want to use for the next photo? It's all that random, you know, but I don't want anybody too excited. I prefer a person who is on the edge of saying “No,” but they'll do it anyway. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's what I want. I don't want somebody that, “Oh, I take a thousand pictures for social media every day.” No, they usually are too excited, too much to calm down. That's just been what I've seen just from taking pictures for three years. People that are over excited to take photos, it's usually for me. Other people may be different, but for me it's more difficult to get them to the look, the feel and the expression that I need for the photo. And that photo shoot would last two hours. When I could have got the picture in seven minutes with a person that's more calm and mundane and melancholy. We can get the photo in seven minutes and then now I can spend thirty minutes getting a bunch of photos to use for later. So that's more conducive for me. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, and I particularly want people who have never seen. So, the invisible people is what I want. Melancholy, invisible. That's the people I want: the unseen. You know, people walk around every day and pretend like homeless people are not standing on the street with a sign asking for water or food. Yet, they're walking a dog, picking up behind a dog, feeding the dog and walk right past a homeless human being, you know? So, we see this every day in society. So, the unseen get no support, no help, you know? They don't get to smile. They don't get to feel good about themselves, you know? We can change that. So that's a part of the social activism of my work. I want the people who are less recognized, the people who may then have such a good time in middle school or high school, got picked on. Maybe wasn't as tall as everybody else. Not as muscular, not as attractive, not as whatever, you know, " ; -ism” you want to use. Those people should be recognized, because everybody should be included. So, there’s no popularity contest with my photos. I’ve turned down more people than most. Because people that ask me to take their photos, it's probably ninety-seven percent time, it's a “No.” I say “no” every week. So (laughs). Visintainer: When do you say “yes” when somebody asks you to? Northington: If it's like a social, like, situation as I'm graduating? Okay. That's a necessary-- to capture this moment. You know, [if] I'm having a birthday party, you know, something like that. People celebrate different, you know, different holidays and stuff like that. So, those are understood situations. But when it's like, “Oh, can you take pictures of me? Can you take?”-- because it's a lot of that. You know, people are doing that with phones every day. But when they find out somebody has a camera and oh, you take pictures a little, you know, on a little higher level than a camera phone. “Oh, can you get these pictures of me for this or for this?” you know, I get some of the same people over and over and over. Even after I’ve taken pictures for them, they’ll keep coming back for more and more and more. No, no, no. That’s enough. You have a phone on your camera. That’s enough. You know, because I believe you’ve already accomplished what we needed to with the photos. You feel good about yourself, you know? And you’re walking around elevated. Good. We made it happen. That's so that's enough for me. So, I don't need to entertain that anymore. So, we trying to pick up the people who feel a little, you know, more lowly about themselves. Pick those people up. Jake Northington describes his process of choosing his portraiture subjects. He explains that he prefers for his subjects to be individuals who are rarely seen. Northington’s photography aims to capture the “invisible” or unsupported people in society. He hopes that his photography is a form of activism, which can bring awareness to the “unseen” individuals in our community, such as the homeless. Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects & ; Themes / Portraits 1306 Black representation in art and media Visintainer: So, one of the things that I think separates beyond skill level, obviously that separates art and photography from say more commercial enterprises, like, you know, capturing a wedding or something like that is a philosophy or a thought process-- Northington: (both talking at once) Yes. Visintainer: (both talking at once) --behind the production of the art. And you've talked a little bit about, um, about how you want to make sure that the people that are unseen are seen. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: But I was curious if there's other philosophies that you take into the production of your art as well? Northington: Yes. My photography is particularly for Black people. So, it does two things. It’s force feeds Black images, Black positive images into everybody’s purview. I’m going to force feed it. There’s something—this comes back to just being a kid and I will walk in Walmart with everybody else that goes to Walmart since they’re billions and billions of dollars every year. You walk in Walmart and, and maybe you just need a picture frame because you and your family just had a family reunion or your grandmother’s birthday was celebrated, and you go pick up this picture frame and the family in the picture frame stock photo never looks like me. Ever. So, that's the standard. And then, you know, you play soccer, or me? I played tennis growing up and we win a little trophy and the figurine on top of the trophy is never me. It's never my people. And then let's say you fall in love with somebody, you get married and you go to the place to order your wedding cake. And you have to specially order the Black figurines and you wait a few weeks for it to come in the mail because everything in the store that's standard is not me. It's not my people. So, you can go across all media, all aspects of society. And the standard is one group. Everybody else becomes, you know? Well, they get to choose if they include you or not. So, what's happened for many commercials, many movies? We have this idea of the token, we'll insert one, you know, non-white person that could be anybody, you know? They may insert one Asian, one Latino, or one Black person, Disney movies do it all the time. Disney TV shows do it all the time. If you've ever seen South Park, they have a character called Token and he has a big “T” on his t-shirt and it's a Black kid that lives in South Park, Colorado amongst all of the other white kids. You know? This is a real thing in life and in a place particularly like San Marcos, this is not a Black city. It's not a Black area, you know? So, we have a lot of Black students here who were the one in their entire group of friends and, you know, sports, anything, they were involved in. So they're not the standard. So going back to Walmart, let me go get, you know, some stuff, some products for my hair. And there's an aisle called an “ethnic hair aisle” in Walmart. One aisle, two or three shells with hair products that's supposed to be for me. And then there's one, two, three, four, five whole aisles for the “standard” people. So, you know, the photography or the standard of people can be influenced by these things. So, you can learn to understand that you're not included by growing up like that. And those are just a few aspects, you know? Cartoons, whatever--toys, everything. A lot of little Black girls were getting little baby doll toys or Barbies or whatever. And it doesn't look like them. So, these things can help pull away at yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you view your skin, your hair, you know, your people in America. It could pull away and produce these negative aspects. And then you see yourself in film and you're always a drug dealer, a crack head, a prostitute, on welfare. Forever. So much so that a movie like the Marvel Black Panther movie makes a billion dollars and it automatically changes so many people's view. And it automatically brings up the feeling of a group of Black people. Or, 2008, when Barack Obama comes into office, you see the spiritual uplift of a bunch of Black people because of representation. And then he has so many books out between him and his wife. They produce different books. There's so much photography of them. There's so many art pieces that were made because they came into the office, you know? There's a there's a professional painter that did a huge piece on Michelle Obama. That's famous all throughout social media, just for the representation. So, propaganda can be positive or negative. So, I'll take my photography to create some more, just add to the positive end. So, I feel like anybody can do that. If you have a camera phone in your hand, everybody can do that. So, I just choose to be on the more positive end because all of my life has only been negative for my people through film, photography, or otherwise, you know? Just pull up any school website and look at the photos they use for the school website. I almost never see my people in any realm, any aspect. Just Google any business, you know? There became a trend that you would only see Black people in McDonald's commercials and Cadillac commercials. And that's been the trend for like thirty years. And then, you know, Black History Month comes up and then you'll see somebody get inputted somewhere else, you know? Or like, the NBA is like eighty, eighty-five percent Black, but then during Black History Month, they have NBA Black history t-shirts that everybody in the NBA has to wear. So, you'll get that one time and then everything else is standard, you know, stuff like that. So, that's the way I look at it. I see it that way. I go, “Okay, how can we improve this?” I can put out more positive Black images. So, I will. So, I go look for people who may be down on themself, who may be just, “I'm just going to hide in the shadows,” or, “I'm unseen,” you know? That's the people I would prefer if I--if they're willing to be a part of it. And then just, you know, gradually go up and up and up. And then when we get too far to somebody’s just over-- “Okay, it's enough.” So, I'm just trying to get that aspect. That's not really, picked out and use and you know, uh, it could be commercial art. It could be just, you know? Fine art, any way you want to take it, but these things are going to last forever. So that's kind of the thought process behind the book. The photo books. They last forever. You can look back at this when you have kids and the grandkids and this event happened, you know? It happened. You have these yearbooks in high school. People always look back at the yearbooks, you know? A lot of grandmothers used to have this big photo album on a coffee table and you come to your grandmother's house and look at all these photos, you know? So, since those were a part of my life, this was a part of the process. Like, okay, I could put all that together and let's just tell a story with this book. And then, I use the book and find a social issue that affects Black people. So, and let's try to correct that social issue through photography, using the Black students here and then give them these photos. And I gave many of them the books that are in the books. Now they get to say they've been a part of this. They get to know. Their family gets to know. So, these pictures get to now reverberate through the Black community. Much like if you saw, you know, Michelle and Barack Obama walk across the stage 2008. So, it gives some type of spiritual upliftment. You feel proud of yourself and who you are, versus comparing yourself to the stock photo in the picture frame at Walmart. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you talked a little bit about representation right now, and then we've talked in the past about representation. And this is not necessarily a photography-related question, but I was curious, as a person of color, when you're out in the world and you don't see representation all around you, what are the kind of the kind of self-care approaches that you take to remain positive in an environment where there's an absence? Northington: Well, just the phrase you just use that I don’t use myself. “Person of color” is not in identifiable nomenclature for me or how I use for my people. You have notion such as “African American.” That’s not--that’s not for me to use. That’s for other people. That’s only been around nineteen years. U.S. census in a year 2000 added “African American” as an identifying, you know, political term to be used. That didn’t exist before then. So, I did a project in the library about that, you know, that we did here. And I showed how the nomenclature of Black people have changed since 1790 census to today. So, there’s been, you know, quite a few terms and phrases. So, the phrase that is currently used now is “people of color.” I don’t use that because you kind of amalgamate everybody into a group and that can be good in certain aspects. But for me, that adds more negative-- Visintainer: Okay. Northington: --For Black people, because we get away from talking about Black issues, and Black people by calling all issues of non-whites people of color issues. So, and a lot of these things need to be particular because people of color don't get kicked out of high school for their hair. People of color are not being murdered at this such high rate by the police on TV. So that's why I can't use a term like that or a phrase like that. But I do understand why people use it and then it gets, you know, it gets, you used a lot, but I--I can't use those terms because what affects Black people particularly is not a people of color issue, you know? People of color in hair that's, you know, it's such a different thing. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: --You know, just try to keep it a little more positive. And, uh, so, going back to your question. I would say, the women's book in particular, the main issue was like, I just brought up, the hair. So, there's black kids getting kicked out of school by the thousands every single year, just for having their natural hair, because my hair grows as my hair is supposed to. Your hair grows as it's supposed to. How can this now be a factor in who can be in school and who can't? And who's unkept and who's not, you know? So, we have Supreme Court rulings on this. Many states have their own state's law and federal law doesn't include, you know, the Constitution has nothing about hair in it, you know? Because that was the standard of one group of people. So, hair wasn't an issue. So, we have a lot of state Supreme Court ruling and that led me to the focus of the first book I did on natural hair. So, in 2016, they had an Eleven Circuit Court Supreme Court ruling said employers could in fact discriminate against natural hairstyles. If they see it to be unfit, unkept, unprofessional. So, to even be allowed to do that legally, that’s not a people of color issue, you know, that’s Black-specific. So, I had to dive into that with the book. So, I went around campus and uh, just would just keep my eyes open for any Black people who just walked around freely with natural hairstyles, their natural hair all the way out, you know? Who may not believe in that “I'm going to be clean cut because society told me to,” you know, my hair has to be cut off. Yet, I sit in class and see all these other races of people who get to enjoy their hair being as long as they choose to. And they're not assumed to be violent or thug or unkept, you know? So, you could walk around with a ponytail and it wouldn't be seen as anything other than hip. But I let my hair grow, and now society makes a direct connection from me and my natural hair to 1966 Black Panther Party. Just my natural hair alone, I get directly, “Oh, you like a Black Panther?” Why would they do that? You know why? Because the photography that existed in 1966, taking pictures of Black people in Black social movements, they all look like this with their natural hair, the men and the women have the same natural hair. So now, America, hasn't seen that since the sixties, thousands upon thousands. So, you had about twenty-five to twenty-eight million Black people at that point. And for a lot of them to just be walking around naturally, completely, like this, that's a different thing. Because it's like, this group is very different than this group. And it's almost like a highlighter, a notify, you know? And at this point, as you go to the “people of color” term, the term that was used at this point was “Afro-American.” It’s in literature. It’s all over the place at this time. It’s in movies, everywhere. Interviews everything. Because it notified the hair. Afro-American. Well, that since passed and a lot of people went into different hairstyles and different things have changed. So much so that when now I exist, the only correlation is 1966 through the sixties and early seventies is Black Panther Party. So, I get that every day. Can I help change that? Yes. With the book, with the pictures. Particularly discussing hair and how my hair has to always be political. My hair has to always have a law. My hair has to always fit into the scheme of the society as they make the rules. So, we had to fully discuss this hair regulation policy, because it doesn't just exist with that one employer for that one Supreme Court rule in an Eleven Circuit Court. This happens at every, it happens here. It happens when I go to job interviews, you know, I've been asked to cut my hair before and I just didn't work at that place, you know? It's a little different for me. What if I wanted to get a job that requires hats like an officer or, you know, a firefighter, baseball player. The hats are not made for me and my hair. That hats are made for the “standard” American. You know, if your hair lays down in a particular pattern, then a hat doesn't change anything as far as your hair. Well, if I were a size seven hat with my hair low, that changes with my hair longer. It may not change as much as you because your hair would press down and it wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't be messed up. Anything like that. Well, it's different for me or if I'm the only sector of society, that's going to have such a significant difference in that manner. The rules didn't change for me and for Black people. So, just trying to help point out some of these things, you know, with the books and with the photography. So, that’s why I said it can work in both ways. You’re uplifting Black people and then you’re throwing it in the face of everybody else. “Hey, this is who we are. This is what we look like. I'm born this way,” you know? So, this is supposed to be the era of “inclusion.” That's one of the newest words being used in the last two or three summers. “Inclusivity.” “Equity.” And all of these things. Those sound good. And you know, people may have the best intent. But how inclusive are you? If you're asking me to cut my hair, how inclusive are you? If you accept Black people, when their hair is straight, you know, processed. You accept that version. But that same Black woman, if she comes with a hair natural, it's a problem. So much is a problem that many Black women get unrecognized when they come to work one week with their hair pressed and they come to work two or three months later with their hair like mine. “Oh, I thought we had a new coworker. I didn't recognize you.” You know, this happens every day. If I cut my hair right now, I guarantee you, I come to school next semester. Some people will—" ; Oh, I didn't realize that was you.” Because my face changed (laughs) due to my hair. You know, so, uh, being that our hair has seen is so negative and the negativity comes from the connection to the Black Power Movement throughout the sixties and seventies. So, one of the things, one of the greatest things is our bodies need to be seen as human and as positive. So, the photography about the hair includes that as well, you know? See us happy, we're on campus, we're students, you know, we're coworkers. You need to get used to seeing us in our natural form, how we are. So, the people who may hate or have a disdain for those images, that's a part of them seeing this as well. So, this is what it would do to people who are not Black and then uplift the people who are Black. So, we can kind of, you know, create some social change. So, you could be a little more uncomfortable with seeing a person that looks like me, because you’ve seen it. So, if I'm in a commercial, if I'm in that standard photo at Walmart, if I'm on the school website, you know. If my sister's here, my mother's on this. And we see Black people in films that are also teachers, that also work in the library, that also police officers. So, it becomes accepted. And now I don't have such a, you know, a shocking response. When I see a person like me. There's so many people are shocked by me walking around school. I'm in elevators, going up steps with people. And I keep getting that. The startled response from so many students just because of my hair, that's it. So, we can help change some of these things. Visintainer: Um, to come back a little bit to people that are unseen. So, if you're looking for people that are on the verge of not being interested in being photographed and you're looking for people that are generally unseen. How do you go about convincing people to be seen? Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: If they're used to not being seen (Northington laughs), and maybe comfortable not being seen. Or maybe they're uncomfortable with it, but that's kind of what they expect? Northington: So, I mean, that becomes the work. So, it can't be easy. You know, if you want to do something easy, then I'll just take pictures of people who want to, you know? And then for me, that's not the right energy to go about it or to make the change. They want to be seen. Okay. Yeah. You know, then they're already showing themselves. So, it's not, to me, that's not a fix. So, now when dealing with a person that may be more reluctant to do that. It's not that I want to convince them. It's that I sit down and have the conversation. Let's think about ten years from now. If you make this decision, how will this affect you for ten years and ten years looking back, you know? Would you have been proud of this? You know, then I tell them my purpose for doing it, you know? Similar to some of these responses. Look at commercials, look at magazines. What do you involve yourself in on a daily basis? If you’re watching your social media, what do the ads look like? What are your favorite films? What’s your favorite music? So, look at the—already imagery of yourself. If you had the opportunity to make it positive, because, you know, there’s so much talk about these people do this to us. This group oppresses us this way. Those are true. So, what if I’m giving one small opportunity to go against that. To improve it? If my son, my daughter, my granddaughter, my great-granddaughter was able to see this great imagery of, you know, their great-grandfather or something. It uplifts them as a child. So, I can start that off from the beginning. And you are already fighting against some of the negativities against you from the beginning. So, what happens today? A lot of Black people are looking back to pictures of the Harlem Renaissance. Looking back at those, you know, Gordon Parks photos. This the, uh, what is this? Another woman, uh, [Carrie] Mae Weems, she--her photos as well. So, you have something to look back to something, to aspire to. All these images of Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. All these images of Jay-Z and Beyonce, all these, you know, you have these images to look forward to, to uplift you. You may even make some type of connection, and you can see a little bit of yourself in it, because it represents you a lot more than looking at the, uh, the Statue of Liberty or the Mount Rushmore, you know? Those are like things that are unattached to your culture or to your soul in a way, if you would see own people, you know, we have the Caesar Chavez statue on campus. Everybody probably generally understands that that's okay, it's a mark on the campus. What Caesar Chavez stands for, you know, the rights of migrant workers and all of those things. But then I would say there's another aspect of people who look at that in a different way than even I do. But in other peoples they see more self-representation, more our people work for something. And then there's a different connection. So, we can do that with statues. With imagery. So, I explain this to some of these people and then they make a decision off of that. Then some of them go, “Okay, you know what? I do want to do this.” And then they may have already told themselves they want to be seen, but they don't get the opportunity. They want to be included, but they don't get the opportunity, and they don't have the persona or the, you know, or the personality to kind of say, “Hey, you know, I like to take pictures and do this.” So, I get to now become the conduit for that. And then some of the people go, “No, that's not my arena.” And then I have to take that. But I'd rather deal with it in that way than the person screaming. “Take pictures of me, take pictures of me.” So that's kind of how it goes. Jake Northington talks about the importance of Black representation in real life, in art, and in the media. He explains how there is a lack of Black representation in all aspects of life, such as commercial art, natural hair and hair products, the wedding business, sports, and film and television. Northington also describes how he views his photography and the importance of documenting the Black community and social issues. Additionally, he discusses the politics behind Black hair and the term, “person of color.” American black history ; Anti-Black racism ; Black Hair ; Black people in art--Photography ; Black representation in art ; Black representation in media ; Obama, Barack ; Obama, Michelle ; Photography ; Racial discrimination, 2656 Personal philosophy of art/ Commerical art vs. personal art Visintainer: Thank you. Have you seen your kind of personal philosophy in relation to your art evolve over time? Northington: Yes. Yes. Uh, but the first idea of doing it from the hair perspective opened up so many other lanes, because then it goes, this is happening against Black people in society. So, let me walk down that and see how I can place that in images to where people can see the image and I don't have to put words on the paper, you know? Tell the story without putting the words on the paper. And then it opens up another lane, another lane. So, I would say the involvement, the evolving of it comes from the first stance of looking at the hair situation. The involvement came from that, and then it's just, this is happening, this is happening. Also, I'm in sociology classes, you know, I'm in a Black feminist thought class. Talk about Dr. Walkington. And I'm in a Black communities class. Talk about Dr. Muhammad. So, we're talking about the aspects of Black immigration, the aspects of over sexual sexualizing Black women, you know? Things like this, more avenues. Now I can use that in the photography and help try to curve some of those negativities. So, it just continues to just go out and go out and go out. And more ideas are just constantly popping up. So, that would add to the evolving measure. And then these are open doors for me to take photography of so many other people, you know? So once the photos get posted online or other people post the photo, I took it in and tagged. Then now I'll get a message saying, “Hey, can you take pictures of me at my birthdays coming up? I have my 22nd birthday. Me and my friends, can you come take--” then that'll happen. And then from that, I had two different companies go, “Oh, hey, we have an event, uh, company that we constantly do events, ten or twenty a year. Are you available to take events for our-- take photos for our events?” So, I have one company I've been taking event photos for three years and another one for a year. And then, so it just keeps going and going and going. And then that adds for a lot of practice. Because I'm getting different lighting situations, indoor, outdoor, overhangs, you know, candlelit lights, you know? So everything's a little different. So, it allows for a lot of practice to do the actual photography that I'm passionate in. So, that's kind of some of the involvement. Visintainer: Okay. So, you've got a commercial aspect to what you're doing then. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And you talk a little bit about how you utilize that to grow your personal art. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some of the things that don't translate when you're doing commercial photography to your artistic side? Northington: Um, we're not really attacking any particular social issue when we're doing commercial art, so it's more, “Let’s enjoy life.” The commercial art becomes more about enjoying life. Like, okay, it's the time to fight against, you know, injustices, it's the time to sit down and do your work and it's the time to enjoy life. So, and the commercial art tends to just, you know, live in that arena. Let's enjoy life, let's have fun. But that also still becomes a correction because it used to be illegal for Black people to get together and hang out, you know? You have the slave codes of Virginia, 1684, they have slave codes and you can’t congregate, you know? South Carolina has some of the same slave codes and many of these things were supposed to be overturned and go out the window after the Civil War. Well, you know, those people still had jobs. So, whether the law changed or not, they still had jobs. So, they still kind of continue some of these practices. And this is where we see like a stop-and-frisk comes into play to where New York City police are growing up, stopping-and frisking can five or six Black dudes standing together. So, we can't even be together, you know? There used to be a time where you could buy a house and have a party. Well, since I've been in California, those things seem to be illegal. You can't even have a party at your apartment. Can't have a party at your house. You can't even congregate and have fun. So now people are forced to go rent out, you know, spaces and hotels and ballrooms. You got to rent out of space, pay a few thousand dollars to get people, to show up and party and have fun and then still pay for parking and all these things. It wasn't like this in the nineties. In the nineties, you lived in a place that you pay rent. You can have a party. Well, those things are like illegal now. People just call the cops. You go, no partying allowed. You know, this is even on some paperwork when you go get an apartment: no parties. Some paperwork, for Homeowners Association of that house: no parties. So, I’m an adult, I’m a human, I can't party. Because I choose to. I have to go to a club. I have to rent out a ballroom, you know? So, for Black people in particular, we need to be able to enjoy life as well with all of these stressors, you need to be able to enjoy life. So, even though this is commercial art, for some of these companies, these people are having fun and are having fun together, which is something that's not promoted. They'll show us fighting together, but not so much of us having fun together. So, there's no balance of that. So, in that aspect of thinking, I get to help provide some balance to showing Black people, enjoying each other, having fun. And then go back home to their kids, their wives, their husbands, and their jobs and school and all of that. But they come together and congregate to have fun and we never get to see it. So. Jake Northington discusses how his classes on sociology and Black feminism have further developed his personal philosophy on art and photography. He also explains the differences between his commercial art and his personal art. His commercial art encapsulates the philosophy of enjoying life. Due to stop-and-frisk policies and house party break-ups by the police, Northington understands the importance of capturing the Black community’s celebrations through photography. Activism & ; Advocacy ; African Americans--California--San Diego County--History ; American black history ; California State University San Marcos ; Commercial photography ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students 3004 Working with Black community organizations Visintainer: When it comes to your subjects for your photography, um, are there anything that you look for in particular? You've mentioned that you look for people that are--I guess maybe, you've already answered this. That you look for people that are unseen. You look for people that are reticent, to be photographed. But are there anything else that you look for in your subjects? Northington: Yes. I also look for Black community organizations or Black on-campus organizations. So, I've taken pictures for the Black faculty and staff, you know, because they have to have it. You should have photos out there. The Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, you know? There's a Black fraternity here, Omega Psi Phi. Black sorority here, Sigma Gamma Rho. And I've taken pictures for all of them because they should have the photos out there, you know? If we're not seen on campus and people pretend like we're not here. So, we're supposedly like 2.1, 2.2 percent of this campus. And you know, and that seems to be the trend all throughout the CSU, you know? There's maybe two: Dominguez Hills and Cal State Long Beach in L.A. They're in a particular area where there's a high concentration of Black people right there in L.A. So, they have a little higher of a number. The rest of the CSU is right around two percent, three percent. So, with that, we're not so much in a propaganda photography in videos at those campuses. Knowing that coming in, I want to particularly take pictures of these Black groups. So, I'll offer my services to all of these Black groups and take pictures of any events that they're doing, any tabling that they're doing and stuff like. So, I have done that here and that's a part of the focus, too. So, to make sure they're supported in that way and, you know, and they can continue on because other than that--because you do an event here and the process is you go to office communication or go to a newspaper you can request photographers to come. And then sometimes they come and they stay for two minutes, take one or two pictures and they leave. And then for me that's not enough, you know? They did their job, they did what they were supposed to do. They got the one or two pictures they're supposed to get and they left. So, they did what they're supposed to do. But for me, that's not enough. For us, it's not enough. Because we're not being represented properly. So, we need to change that. So, when they do their events and sometimes, you know, these different Black organizations ask me to come do the photography, I'll go do it. No charge, just do the event, edit the photos, put them out there. Even make some little slideshows of them and stuff like this. So, and that's led to me doing the old people's luncheon, some Halloween parties, and stuff like that on campus for even other organizations that are not Black particular. But this stuff now lasts forever. , it's amazing. This is 2019, but if somebody's not here, particularly taking pictures of Black people, none of this happened. Everybody's living off memories, you know? That's stuff that was done for people that graduated in [19]79 or [19]82 as a Black group of people. They're talking about the memories of what we went through in four or five years of college. How is that still a thing? Because if nobody's pointing them out and going, “We need to capture this on video on film,” that this happened, they did this, they did this, they did this, you know? The biggest thing here was when we got the Black students in the spring of 2017, and then you have three students who really made the biggest push. So, the ASI [Associated Students Incorporated (student government)] President at that time was Tiffany Boyd. Then you have Jamaéla Johnson and then you have Akilah Green. All three of them were ASI and they made a huge push for us to get the Black Student Center as we needed. And this was a time that all of these Black people were being shot on TV. And, so, this was a very important need for Black students on campus. So, with those three people, we had to make sure they got recognized. So, I took pictures of them. They came for the grand opening. I hope one day that their names and pictures are on the wall in the Center to get their proper due. If that didn't happen, and there's no pictures, it all goes away and there's a history forgotten. So, the photos become documentary automatically. Any photos of Black people almost automatically become a documentary and historical reference points. So that’s another point of keeping all of my photos. When you ask if I keep them. I just get to look back, you know? Even now I’ll look back three years ago when this person was a freshman or whatever. And, you know, it’s like, “Hey, remember this picture, remember this BSU [Black Student Union] meeting, or remember this event,” you know? So. Jake Northington describes his experience photographing Black community organizations and Black on-campus organizations. He explains the importance of documenting Black organizations and individuals in order to help them be better recognized and preserve their history. While a student at CSUSM, Northington has photographed Black faculty and staff, the Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, the Black fraternity, Omega Psi Phi, and the Black sorority, Sigma Gamma Rho. Northington also explains that although Black students make up about 2.1 or 2.2 % of CSUSM’s student population, they often feel invisible. He hopes his photography will bring more visibility to his community. Associated Students Incorporated ; Black people in art--Photography ; Black Student Center ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; Omega Psi Phi Fraternity ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority ; Students 3285 Giving guidance to subjects Visintainer: When you're taking your photographs, what guidance do you give your subjects? Northington: To be calm, to try to, like, take away the stress that they have, you know? Because it's almost exercise when you asked about some exercising, some positive things to kind of--because this, this also helps me, you know? This has becomes a tool of, uh, I mean, some people will call it a yoga, mental yoga, or a relaxation technique. Because just being able to take a picture of Black people and it makes them feel good. It makes me feel good. So, you know, you get to keep pushing that positive energy back into Black people. Because they need it just as much as anybody. So, if nobody's going to be particular to help pull up Black people, I'm not going to sit around and fuss about it. What aspect can I add to it? So, I'll continue to do that. So, it can help them as well, you know? Especially those people who are more quiet and shy and then they go, “Oh, this person wanted to put me in their book or wanted to put me in their video,” and that can help change them and, and it help them grow and help them feel good about themselves so I could help them. They could help me. So that's the way I take it. Jake Northington discusses the guidance he provides to his subjects. Specifically, he stresses the importance of staying calm during their photography sessions. Northington also aims to “push positivity” onto his subjects. Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects & ; Themes / Portraits 3382 Satisfying moments in Northington’s work Visintainer: Can you tell me about a particularly satisfying moment in your photography? (Northington laughs) Something that really, really made you, you know--I think you get a lot of joy out of it in general. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: But something that really made you go “Well, I'm so happy to be doing what I'm doing?” Northington: Uh, well, a lot of these photos in the books, especially the Black women's book, I printed out maybe seventy, eighty of these photos on a large canvas of like twenty-four by thirty-six. And I did a thing last year where I printed all these out on steel frames and some of them were on canvas and I gave these out to people or gave them to their mothers and to their grandmothers. And that was probably the most satisfying thing because you don't normally see people from a socioeconomic deprivation to be, to make a jump, to have something that may be considered expensive artwork of their own in their house. So, imagine walking in your house and having your own huge portrait on metal, on steel, on the wall, and every time your family comes over, “Look, this is my daughter in college. Look, this is my son in college.” And they had the picture taken by somebody on campus. When you would normally have to have enough income enough, you know, throw away money, to go pay for this. And it cost you three or 400 bucks. So, because it cost about 200 bucks for the photo. And then now for the photo photographer services, you might spend 500 dollars for something like that. Just for that joy. Well, I just give it to them and then they got that joy anyway. And they were sitting around talking about it. This one girl had her mother, her father, and her grandparents and her brothers and sisters at this event done by the Black SistaHood. It's another Black organization on campus. And we did a natural hair event last year to particularly talk about our natural hair and how we treated and things we can do to improve, you know. So, and that was a part of it. So, I printed out these huge photos. So, when people walked in, they had a line of all these huge photos of Black men and women in their natural hair, smiling, loving it. And I handed out a lot of these photos at that event and these people with their family and they just loving, they posting it online and everything like. So that right there would probably be the peak, that right there. Jake Northington discusses a few satisfying moments in his work, including gifting photographs on steel frames to mothers and grandmothers of the participants from the Black women’s book, and contributing his own photographs of Black men and women in their natural hair to a natural hair event on campus. Black hair ; Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects & ; Themes / Portraits 3524 The most difficult part of the photography process Visintainer: That's cool. What's the most difficult part of the process of photography or creating art for you? Northington: Uh, impatient people (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Yeah, or people that you're trying to communicate with a person to do what you see in your head. That's always difficult, you know? It's almost like telling somebody to draw something out of your head. That's the way I look at it. It's almost that difficult sometimes because you know, people want to sit and stand like, “Okay, roll your shoulders back.” And then they do the same thing. Okay. “Chin down,” Because this is how people take pictures. “Okay, we're going to take your picture.” Okay. “Stand there.” And then people do this, uh, you have to put your chin down, then they do this. Okay. (Visintainer laughs) You know? And then I'm like, “Alright, one millimeter, two millimeters to the left, to the right.” You know, all right. “Don't look at the camera,” and then I'll take the picture. Or when I get ready to take the picture. Okay, “One, two, three,” and then they pop the same pose. Okay. Well, no, we already posed you. Sit still, “All right, let's go.” You know, and people have a--he did it. Shamar did it. He, you know, keep ticking his head to the left when it’s ready. All one, two, three. And then, you know, and I came to find out, a lot of people have a tick like that. Because people get used to taking photos. So, they have like a go-to pose. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So that go-to pose becomes a difficult thing a lot of times. So, that, and I never like it when, if people are not satisfied with the photo. So, there’s some photos that I put in the books that I really love and other people love them, you know, from the studios and everything. But then that person in the photo didn’t particularly like that one. So, we’ll take thirty or forty and I’ll ask them to choose. And then I’ll tell them the one I like. “You pick two or three and I’ll tell you one I like.” Hopefully they’re the same, but in some cases it’s not the same. And then they’re not as satisfied as I am. So, I don’t like that part either. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: But, it's a part of the process. So. Jake Northington discusses the difficulty with communicating with subjects during photography shoots. Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; Photography & ; the creative process ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects & ; Themes / Portraits ; Photography--Techniques 3645 Northington’s books Visintainer: Um, so you published two books of photography. The first book was inspired by the question of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: The representation of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Uh, what was the second book’s (unintelligible)? Northington: The second book is of Black men. So, the negative characterizing of Black men has always been thugs and criminals. Well, we have all these Black men here on this campus going to school that are not student athletes. They're students, you know? So, they need to be recognized as being students. So, there's plenty of Black men that have graduated from college. That's not what you see on TV. You don't see a college graduate Black man on TV, in a commercial that we know that's what it is. The representation is always a sport, you know? (laughs) Music, you know? It's pretty, after that, it gets thin, you know? So, uh, you can be a comedian, it's entertainment, and it's entertainment-based mostly, you know? And if that's the eighty percent, the ninety percent, maybe even a hundred percent of what you're going to encompass, it's hard to see them as anything else. So, this determines a lot of how we treat people. If I only see Black men represented that way, but then I go home, nobody's --and my home's Black. I'm not Black. I live in a community that's not Black. And my only visual of Black men is all this negative stuff. That's going to play on my comfortability or how I treat them. So now I come to Cal State San Marcos, I get in the elevator and I see a dude like this. I may be a little disheveled. So, if we can change some of those things, because we can, and put out the positive imagery of Black men, then these things can start to, you know, disappear. So, with that in mind, when I did the book for the Black man, again, I want people with all different hairstyles or all different natural hairstyles. But I told them not to smile because I need you to be able to be accepted for having a straight, comfortable face. I'm just sitting in a class like this, or I'm just in my Uber, or I'm just, you know, at the ATM machine. You shouldn't have to smile, dance, and entertain to be accepted. And those are aspects of vaudeville, ragtime, USA, you know? You can be accepted by this society, entertaining people as a Black man, but can you be accepted when you don't entertain? When you just live life? And that's why we have these, social things that are happening such as barbecuing while Black, driving while Black, shopping while Black. These things occur so much because of how other people view Black men, Black women, Black children. And then you're already castigated and put into the box of criminal or not American, but other American. So, you viewed a certain way. Therefore, you're treated a certain way. And then this causes stress on both ends. So now the stress is building up on us and then the stress is building up on anybody on the other side. And then now it clashes when you get to a campus, when you get to a work environment and you have this wall up on both sides. Well, that doesn't make well for society. And it doesn’t do well for people’s mental health and spiritual health, especially the people on the end receiving all the negativity. So, we can help change some of these things. So, if I'm not the one causing the racism on myself, I'm not the one that needs to make the correction. So, the people viewing this and see these Black men, not smiling, being themselves, looking like me, looking like him, looking like all different aspects of Black men. And you get to view this in a book. They're all students, they're all at this university. They all go unseen. So, let’s put this out here. So now when you see this, it forms now, “Okay, this is a little different than the rapper I saw on TV. This is a little different than the guys I see being chased by the cops.” So, I have to give you another element. So, it allows for some change, but people still have to make that choice themselves. So, that's the point for that one. Visintainer: And then you have a third book you're working on? Northington: Yes. And then the third book of this series, this is a series of books. The third book is called, “WE ARE,” and it's going to show the Black men and Black women together on campus doing regular life, you know? Studying, having fun, telling jokes, you know? Walking to their cars, walking to class, you know? Hanging out in the library, all different things, eating together, congregating, just enjoying each other's company. Because again, that's something we don't see propagated by the country, you know? There's a select few, you'll get, you know? If there's a people of color seminar, you know? There's an African American scholarship, then you'll see the commercial art for that be Black people smiling. So, it's not, it doesn't change the standard. That's a particular thing for a particular group of people. And it, you know, it's almost commodified in that way. I want to include us in the standard. So, including us in the standard becomes the change. So, I would look at it in that, in that realm. Visintainer: Do you have a, um, do you have a project after your next project? Are (unintelligible)? Northington: Yes. So as soon as I made the second book, I automatically thought I could just do a bunch of series. So, with this third book completing this series-- also, I did mention before, I think, I maybe told you on the side--all three books, I envisioned them already before I did them. So, I said, “I'm going to make another element to this.” So, the books have the photography and I have a passage in the front of the book that explains the purpose of the book. And then every book has its own title, which I explained on the first page. Then the final page of every book has the thank yous of everybody that we included that gave you the energy to the book. And the thank yous are translated into a different African language. So, with each book, you're going to learn a little bit of a different African language. Now, all three titles of the book in a series complete one sentence. So, the first book is called, “Solar Amalgamations.” The second book is called, “HUEMAN.” And the third book is called, “WE ARE.” And the whole sentence is rearranged: “We are solar amalgamations.” Well, “We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.” And that generally means, “We are stars,” you know? We're carbon-based human beings. So, this is the carbon-based world. So, and then the human part, I spell “H-U-E-M-A-N” you know? Denoting the shade or the “hue.” Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, “We are human solar amalgamations.” And that completes that trio. After that, there's another book series I'm doing on older Black people that work on campus and things like this. So, I'm particularly looking for fifty [years old] and up, you know? So, and then another series is going to be on Black families and it's going to go on and on and on and on and keep going with that. So, this sparked just a different--and I can, I think I'm going to do this by just (unintelligible), and I'll be able to keep adding more series. So, and that's what that's going to do. So, and then this third book should be out. I want it to be done now, but people’s schedules, it's always tough. The more people that are in the photos, it gets tougher. So, it was a little easier to do the first two books because it was individuals. And then I could put it together in a week or something after I got all the photos, I spent one week putting the whole book together. But we groups. So, these photos are going to be done in groups. It's going be at least two people in every photo. And I’m trying to get some photos of six and seven and twelve people, you know? To add to that, the aspect of us together, “WE ARE,” that's the title. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, it should show us together. So, it may take a little longer than I thought and it may not come out into the spring. So. Visintaier: That’s a lot of scheduling direct. Northington: Yeah, yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: And I have to be the most free because I have to work with everybody else's schedule. So Jake Northington describes the themes of his three books. His first book, “Solar Amalgamations,” illustrates the representation of hair. His second book, “HUEMAN,” tackles representing Black men in a positive light. His third book, “WE ARE,” represents Black men and women congregating together on CSUSM’s campus. Together, the book series creates the sentence, “We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.” At the time of the interview, Northington was planning two other book series on older Black individuals who work on campus and on Black families. African American men ; Anti-Black racism ; Art books collection ; Black men ; Black representation in media ; Books ; Classification--Books--Photography ; Modern photography books ; Photography ; Racial discrimination 4150 Recent art projects and exhibitions Visintainer: I think that's all of the questions that I had. Northington: Okay. Visintainer: Was there anything that I should have asked you about that I didn't? Northington: The recent recognition that's happening that never happened. I've been here going on my fourth year, as I said. And when I spoke about people being invisible, that includes me as well. So, I had to sit back and watch my fellow students that are in class with me, get their work recognized every year, every semester, over and over, you know? People that ask for my help or people that I ask for help. We're all in the same class. And you know, there's a nursing program, they all go to the same classes. There’s sociology, they all-- same thing with art. We're all in the same classes, especially in my student discipline, art and technology, we're all in the same classes. So, to see some of those students get their work put out or get recognized or see their work, you know, in different areas on campus or whatever I say, “Okay, this is how this works.” So, it doesn't stop. It doesn't turn off. So now, you know, you just come here and then you see the work in the, in the art-- it all just linked up. The students in the art department that put on the exhibit, the art juncture, you know, they reached out because a few of my art professors let them know. So, all of those pieces kind of came together at once. So, you know, I did old people's luncheon, I did photography for them, did their programs and all these other things. This all happened in one month. That part, the school newspaper reached out to me and did an interview and they put it in a newspaper and they posted my photos. Another group of people for Art Equals Opportunity that they work in a--in the San Diego area using art to help students, you know, learn the lessons of English, you know, history, science, and everything. But using the conduit of art, they posted me on their website. All of this happened in the same month. And then you walk in, you know? And your coworker sees the work and then we meet to do this. And all, all of this just happened at once. That's just that. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Then the last, last week I submitted some of these photos to, ah, Lycoming College. It’s in, uh, Pennsylvania. It’s in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And there was this huge national search for all Black art for their exhibit called “Blurred Expectations.” That’s open now. It just opened today. Everybody across the country submitted. Somebody that knew me said, “Hey, you should submit your stuff to this.” I submitted it. Boom, immediately. They was like, “Yes, it’s in.” So, once this exhibit ended here, the very next day, I had to take it down and ship it. Visintaier: Yeah. Northington: Uh, to Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And it’s up right now in their exhibit. And then ASI, the ASI student government here, just accepted one of my pieces for that art project. So, within two months, this semester, all of the work I've been doing for years, you know? Some of this book is 2017. This book is 2018., you know? And I'm currently doing--so these things are year, two years old, after I watch all of my, you know, fellow students be recognized. All of mine is coming right here in two months. So that's, you know, that's been a big change. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, congratulations. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: How long is the exhibition in Virginia up for? Northington: Until the beginning of February. So, they got a couple of months. Yeah. I think it’s right at two and a half months. Something like that. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: No, the end of November. All of December. All of January. Yeah. So, it's right at like two and a half months. Think they got like eight week-- Visintainer: (both talking at once) Is there going to— Northington: (both talking at once) --be six week, ten weeks, something like that. Visintainer: Is there going to be a digital component to it? Northington: Well, they've been posting videos and uh, you know, tagging all of the artists in it and everything like that. And they made--they made a social media page, they made an Instagram page. So that's how everybody's keeping up who's not in their area at that school. And it's like a huge four-year private institution. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: That costs like ten times as much as this school to go to. So, it’s-- and it was a national search. So, it's-- it is, it is good to add to, ah, you know, to a resume for something like that. So, I mean (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: You know, it's like on my way out the door, I have all these résumé items now that didn't exist before, you know? Even though I've done so much work on this campus going unrecognized, but it's now, it's now all happening right now at the perfect time. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: I can appreciate that. So, uh, and I also wanted to mention all the supporters that helped over this time. So, Miss Ariel Stevenson from the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Uh, Mrs. Marilyn McWilliams, Office of Inclusive Excellence, Dr. Sharon Elise, you know? These are people who supported me from the beginning to now. No holds barred, you know? They even got a little flack, you know, at times, because I'm not as accepted as everybody else. So, you know, they've asked me to do different projects on campus. They supported, they came to all of the events, you know? We established another club on campus: The Black SistaHood to encompass all these elements I spoke about, about photography, my photography, Black-specific, and how it assist in helping us get through this society and try to make some things positive where we turn that into a student club and organization. So, that's why I have this. That's why wore this sweater for this interview. So no, and this is more pushing love for people, you know? Loving each other, breaking through some of these stereotypes and turning these negatives into positives and becoming, you know, great people in life. So, and a lot of that's going to be exemplified in the third book, in the, “WE ARE” book, you know? So, uh, been a part of Black Student Union since I've been here, you know? Some--there was some people in the sorority, Black sorority and Black fraternity, Sigma Gamma and Omega Psi Phi, a few, there's a few individuals that supported me and helped as well. And then the Black Student Center itself has been the hub for all of this. So once that was established and created, it allowed me a centered space because before I had to walk around the entire campus, like loop every building and hang out during every U-hour, whether I had class or not. And just try to like find people. So that's what I had to do before. And it's like the people out here right now, “Are you registered to vote? Are you registered to vote?” I was one of those people. With my camera and no book because the book is not made yet. So, I'm out here with a printed sheet of paper. “Hey, would you like to take a photo for my project?” And this-- and that was not as, you know, as presenting, you know, as to walk up with an already made book. So, once I got the first book, I got more yeses. Once I had two books, I got--you know, so the yeses come a lot easier. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, having the, the Black Student Center here, I get the crowd now. So now I have more people to choose from and it's just so much easier to do it now than it was, you know, in 2016, when I started the first book. So, it's a lot easier now. So, that may--that may be it. And uh, as long as you using the terminology " ; Black,” because I don't, I don't use “African American” or “people of color.” Northington talks about feeling invisible among his own classmates at CSUSM. At the time of the interview, however, Northington began receiving recognition for his work, and he discusses being invited to events, working with Associated Students, Inc (ASI), and exhibiting his work at Lycoming College. Art exhibitions ; Associated Students Incorporated ; Black Student Center ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; Lycoming College, Williamsport, Pa. ; Omega Psi Phi Fraternity ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority ; students ; The Black SistaHood 4588 Conclusion/ Current CSUSM projects Visintainer: Yeah Northington: So, while y'all printing this, any, any printing that has to be done uh-- Vistintainer: I'll, I'll send you any verbiage that we do. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And then that way you can look it over and-- Northington: Okay, okay. Visintainer: Correct me, if I'm making a mistake. Northington: (laughs) Well, you know, it's not a mistake for other people, but for me that, you know, it just doesn't work for me. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, that might be it. And then shout out to the, the people who are coming behind me, you know, Shamar. We got (unintelligible) Williams. She's been working with me the most here. So, she's a senior now and she's in my same major field: visual performing arts. And she's helped a lot over the last year because I've been just forcing her and pushing her to do her photos, to do her artwork, you know? And then as I mentioned with Gordon Parks, this isn't one element, like I told you before, the photo is just one thing that I've done on this campus. So, I make these shirts, I make these logos, these designs, you know? So, all of the BSU gear you've seen, all of the Black Student Center gear you've seen for the most part, all the Black SistaHood, Black Brotherhood, you know, Transitions Collective. I did some logos for them. Project Rebound, I'm designing a logo for them right now. So, there's so many elements to the artwork that I produced on campus. So, and I've done about four or five, like a components--we just saw the art exhibit. But then I already did two exhibits here in the library and we're working on the third with the art department right now on sustainability. So, I have an art project, uh, a water art project that's going to be in sustainability, you know? If that happens in the spring, that's still talking about that. I did a sustainability project with ASI about straws. And this was right before they banned straws on this campus. We were trying to make a push to get rid of straws and how this affected the aquatic life. And we, you know, we created like a sea turtle with a straw in his mouth and shows how this kind of messes them up. So, uh, spent a lot of things like that on campus. So, I just want to make sure it's not just photography. Visintainer: Sure. Northington: I would say it's art and I'm sure you understand that it's art and, but this part is the photography, but there's so much more that I've been a part of on campus than that. And now I want the next group of people like Shamar to come along and continue it. Because if I--you know, once I leave it's over, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't end. It should be fifteen, twenty more people. So, I try to do my part and help them learn the right avenues, meet some people, you know? That's why I asked them to come and be here and to see a different process, you know? " ; Okay, this is where I started. And then I could do this, this, this, this, this.” They can do the same thing I'm doing, you know? It's not, it's not that special. You have to do the work, you know? You have your vision, you have what, your passion and then you need to do the work. And you'll get everything that you want out of it. So. And that's, that's probably all I got right there. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: Well, thank you, Jake. Northington: (both talking at once) No problem. Visintainer: (talking at once) I really appreciate you coming by and chatting with us. Northington: Make sure we see, uh- Visintainer: Yes. Northington: The women that I love. And then the men’s book. And the third book will be coming soon. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Alright. Visintainer: Thank you, sir. Jake Northington concludes the interview by acknowledging his mentees. He also discusses other projects he is involved with on campus, such as designing shirts and logos for Black student organizations, curating exhibits in the library, and working on sustainability initiatives with ASI and the art department. Associated Students Incorporated ; Black Brotherhood ; Black Student Center ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; Photography ; Project Rebound ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students ; Sustainability ; The Black SistaHood ; Transitions Collective Oral history Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. In this interview, Jake discusses his artistic influences, the importance of Black representation in his photography, and his involvement in CSUSM’s Black Student Center and the Black SistaHood. Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer and I' ; m interviewing Jake Northington as part of the Cal State San Marcos University Archive' ; s Oral History Project. The interview took place on Friday, November 22nd, 2019 at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. Jake, thank you very much for talking with us today. I thought we' ; d start off by talking about some of your formative years, especially how they relate to your passion for photography. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your childhood and early adult life. And I wanted to start off just by asking, where were you born? Jake Northington: That I don' ; t know the answer to. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I grew up as an orphan and I lived in many cities, many states. Uh, I' ; ve seen a couple of birth certificates. So, not really sure, but, I grew up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That' ; s why I grew up. Visintainer: So you grew up in East St. Louis. Was there any ways in which your childhood or your upbringing influenced your photography? Northington: Uh, yes. I would say yes. You know, uh, if you' ; ve ever heard of a guy by the name of Gordon Parks. So throughout the fifties and sixties, he photographed the civil rights movement and a lot of activists socially. So, seeing those type of pictures and watching movies produced by Spike Lee and other people through Black films, they would use a lot of still shots to enter into the movie or to exit out of the movie. So, the beginning and the ending to bookcase the movies, they would show a lot of still shots from Gordon Parks. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: You know, so that was probably the first time I saw images like that and the images Gordon Parks takes in particular of Black people living everyday life, you know? So, and that introduced me to other photographers that particularly took pictures of Black people that you would never see that I wouldn' ; t see in magazines or on TV or anything like that. So. Visintainer: And when you say he took pictures of Black people living everyday life, are there any images that you recall that really stand out to you? Northington: Yes. Uh, he has a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King smiling together at a banquet function. And it is like [19]66 or [19]67. And these are two people that have polarizing views of what Black people should do in America socially. So, you have one guy who wants to fully work with the system and you have one guy who wants to fully oppose the system. So, you have two different dynamics at play from the same, uh, atmosphere from the same starting point growing up at the same time yet they have two different ways of going about it. And then you see these people cordial and friendly. So that' ; s an amazing picture for people in the Black community to see that you can have opposing views and still work for the same progression of your people. So. Visintainer: Okay. Thank you. Did he take pictures as well of less famous Black people? Northington: Yes. Yes, because that' ; s, again, the start. So, from the research, it seems that he took a lot of pictures of jazz musicians. He even did short films himself, you know? So it was all encompassing. He became more famous for the photography, but he also did films. I believe he wrote a book as well. And, uh, so it' ; s, it' ; s a little, you know, all-encompassing to produce an entire artwork with the varying degrees and various wrinkles. So, it' ; s not just one avenue and that' ; s kind of the way I take my artwork, because photography' ; s just one element of it. I didn' ; t start off taking pictures. I started off drawing pictures. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I draw still and that' ; s still the basis of it all is drawing. So, I would consider taking pictures, just drawing with the camera. Visintainer: Alright. So when did you make the transition from drawing into photography? Northington: Just three years ago, in one class here at this school. I took a--it' ; s a digital photography class taught by Nancy diBenedetto. She' ; s in the Navy and she was an adjunct professor at that moment. I don' ; t know if that may be in her second or third year teaching here. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, in, uh, she thought I took pretty good pictures. So she gave me a few pointers. She kind of showed us a lot of stuff in the class. You know, we did so many field trips to go to different arenas. We went to farms, we went to parks and, you know, on campus and she put us everywhere. And then we went to see an photography exhibit downtown at Balboa Park they had a photography exhibit and the whole class had to go there. So, to see the photos you take and then be able to compare them to professional photography. It gives you, you know, something to look for or it allows you to see things you could correct yourself, you know? So, and that' ; s how I kind of see photography, you making your own corrections, you know? And then if you' ; re satisfied, then it' ; s a good photo for you. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Because they can all be looked at so differently. So, that' ; s how hard is. Visintainer: Was it intimidating when you first started out comparing yourself to people in exhibitions? Northington: Not at all, not at all because I' ; m a person that always went to art museums. I went to plenty of exhibitions prior to this class, you know? Art is my whole world. So, I see everything as art: cars, clothes, shoes, a pencil, you know? I used to play with my mechanical pencils and take them apart, put them back together to see how it was put together, why they chose these colors, why they have the writing on it, you know? And for me, all of that is art because somebody with an artistic mind had to design your mechanical pencil, your eraser, your--your steering wheel on your car. So, it all plays a part. So, I wouldn' ; t consider my stuff in a comparison measure to be less than it' ; s just, this is the way I see it. That' ; s the way they see it. There' ; s two different eyes behind the camera. So, I wouldn' ; t do that, but I' ; d look at their work and see like, " ; Okay, there' ; s more clarity here, there' ; s more depth." ; There' ; s more layers to their photography versus me taking a picture of a person. And there' ; s just a wall in the background. There' ; s no layers. So, I would be able to get some type of a scope of these are other things that are possible with the photos and then talking about the mood of the person. Can I really see the mood? I got more of that from watching modeling shows, you know? Of how your eyes can give away a smile or your eyes can give away a frown without the facial expression. So, then I have to input that into the photo. And now I' ; m trying to communicate that with the person in the photo to get the look I' ; m looking for. So, you know, it' ; s a little bit of elements all over the place to put it all together. Visintainer: Okay. And do you started off with drawing, so I' ; m assuming that your experience and your learning as you started off with drawing, transferred into photography pretty well as well, but I was curious, were there any specific lessons or techniques that you took from your background in drawing and art that transferred directly into photography? Northington: Yes. The biggest thing I would say is filling up the space. So, before I started taking pictures, I would see a lot of people take pictures on social media and all these other things. I' ; m not a picture person myself. So, I don' ; t just sit down and take pictures of myself or other people. I didn' ; t-- I never did that, but I would do it mentally. So, you know, and you would see a picture or a background mentally before I even had the camera. So, I' ; m already doing it in my head. And then, uh, you know, people would, most people do it. They go, " ; Oh, that' ; s a nice sunset." ; Or, " ; Look at those mountains." ; You' ; re taking a visual picture in your head, you know, and this is why they can sell their painting at Marshalls. You go to Marshalls and you pick up the painting of the canvas of the Carlsbad beach area or the pier in Oceanside. You can sell that because it' ; s a nice visual and you just capture that. And then, uh, I think everybody does that to a different degree. So again, picking up the camera, I' ; ve already had that exercise in my mind. So, from drawing, I got filling up the picture because I started drawing cartoons. So now I come in class and I' ; m taking art class. The professor would say, " ; You have to fill up the background, it' ; s empty," ; you know? You make it too one-dimensional or two-dimensional with no layers. You want to make it pop. You want to make it stand out. You want--so you need to add three, four, five, ten dimensions, whatever. Keep adding layers. So, filling up the whole sheet of paper and making an entire scene is what I took over to the photography side from, from drawing. Visintainer: Okay. And that' ; s interesting. And when you mentioned cartoons, especially, so when I think of cartoons, I think of panels. Northington: Yes. Vistintainer: And I think of you know, word balloons and things that do fill up a panel there. Um, but oftentimes there' ; s real kind of blank or not defined backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Do you try to do something similar with your portraiture, especially? Or do you utilize the backgrounds, uh, in a way that would be maybe different from how--? Northington: I would say it' ; s both and it all depends on the intent of that photo. So, if the intent of that photo includes the background, then I' ; ll make the black background a little more apparent and then if it doesn' ; t, then you kind of shoot an aperture mode to, you know, to fizzle out the background, you know? And that' ; s like a new app on everybody' ; s phone, everybody' ; s shooting in portrait mode on their, on their iPhone and it' ; ll fuzz out the background, you know? So that' ; s, if that' ; s necessary for what I' ; m trying to get across then yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: If not, I' ; ll really include the background, you know? Specifically with the photos you' ; ve seen with the sunlight actually being included in the background though, it' ; s ninety-three million miles away so they say. Visintainer: Alright. Um, I think we' ; ve already covered a little bit about your instruction with tutoring, or tutoring that you had as well as your background in art. So, I kind of wanted to move on and ask you kind of in a reverse question, have you taken on any students or mentees yourself? Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Or in, so what advice did you give them? Northington: The same advice I get. And you know, one of the bigger things that probably the number one piece of advice I got from Nancy diBenedetto is just keep taking pictures. You have to make all the mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over. And then next year and I take ten thousand more pictures. I' ; m comparing my pictures now to my pictures, you know? And that' ; s an easier fix and it allows you to grow within yourself versus I' ; m going to compare my pictures to somebody that' ; s already in the magazine shooting for Getty Photos. You don' ; t want to, you know, that' ; s a big jump and you may never get there. And then understanding how much equipment plays a role. You could shoot with a, you know, a Polaroid camera from some convenience store that you got from CVS versus shooting with a $10,000 camera, you know, from Best Buy. That same person is going to produce a different quality of photo just from the equipment alone. So, learning that, you know, uh, learning, setting the background, and implanting the person versus trying to take the person and implant the background, you know? That was a big thing I learned too. So, that' ; s something I teach some people. I have about four or five right now, just picked up a new guy, Shamar. So, I got about four or five students here at school that I kind of help out and assist with all the things that I' ; ve been told. And then I try to help them just develop their own way, you know? Don' ; t take pictures like me, take pictures like you, you know? Don' ; t become a copycat. You see what you saw in it. And I' ; ll just try to help with, you know, technical things, things that may stand out to make this possibly not as good of a picture. But I can' ; t help you with what you saw, what you see, what you want to produce. I don' ; t want to touch that because that' ; s for you. Visintainer: Okay. There were a couple things I wanted to come back to. Um, one of them is you mentioned you got to make the same mistakes over and over and over. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some mistakes in photography that you made over and over and over before realizing--? Northington: Lighting. Visintainer: Lighting? Northington: Lighting. Uh, there' ; s so many small things. There may be twenty-five or thirty things you have to do before you take a picture. And if you forget one of them, you' ; ll be mad once you go to editing, you know? You walk outside, the sunlight is in one space in the sky. If you forget that and throw it out of your mind, then you' ; re going to have a bunch of dark shadows on everybody' ; s face. So, unless that was what you was exactly trying to do, then you kind of threw a lot of your pictures off. You want the light on them, you know. Learning the red, the orange and the blue and the white lights, you know, using the application on your actual camera, the white balance, you know, that' ; s something that I didn' ; t even pay attention to. Even though Nancy taught us in class, I spent a lot of months not using my white balance and you' ; ll get a yellowish undertone to people' ; s skin and the colors scheme will be off. And now in editing, you have to go through and try to mute all that yellowish and greenish because you didn' ; t do a proper white balance, you know? So stuff like that, I had to waste a bunch of photos and SD cards because I didn' ; t, you know, take that into account. So where are my light source come from? Having enough light for the individual. Focus--my focus points, you know, the different variations you could, adjust your camera to, you know? Shooting in portrait or shooting in, you know, a fast pace or a slow pace. Understanding that, uh, your camera only captures so much depending on the lens. So, if I have a $700 lens, I could do a little bit more than that standard lens you come with, but I have a $2,000 lens I can do even a little bit more. It allows for even more mistakes because that vibration control works a lot better in the $2,000 lens than it does in that standard lens you get. So, understanding all of those things before I even take the photo. Using a tripod to take photos versus handheld, because nobody can sit still, you have a heartbeat, your body can' ; t sit still. You have to hold your breath and pause everything. You know, that' ; s just like, you know? Anybody that does weaponry, you learn the same thing. When you have to shoot a rifle on a range, you have to hold your breath, squeeze in between your breath, because that' ; s the only still you' ; re going to get. It' ; s the same thing. I think that' ; s what you call it, " ; shooting with the camera," ; cause yeah, it' ; s some of the same techniques. So, anybody that shoots rifles, it' ; s kind of the similar techniques. For putting it' ; s a similar technique. So, shooting free throws, similar technique, you know, those positions, you have to pause that breath. So, all of those things at once before you even take the picture, if you rush through it, you just wasted some time. I had to do it. And then I look back at my photos from the beginning. Because I even have a book that' ; s not out for anybody to see because it' ; s a book of mistakes, you know? And I keep it and I have it in my room and I look at it from time to time. I can' ; t--this is where it started, you know? A lot of blown out pictures because it' ; s too much light, a lot of yellow skin because no white balance, a lot of blurry pictures because my arm is moving too much. And I have to keep it to look at my mistakes to remind myself, to keep all of these things in mind before I shoot the picture. So, you know, that' ; s, it' ; s a part of it and it' ; s--it' ; s needed. Visintainer: Yeah. Do you keep all of your photos that you take? Northington: Yes. So, I have quite a few hard drives so, and the only thing I don' ; t like is they usually last, you know, four or five years and you got to switch them up again. Don' ; t like that, but you know, because you have to keep paying for that over and over and over, but yeah, you should. I would tell people to keep them all because if you get rid of your mistakes, you can' ; t see them. It' ; s hard to improve like that. So, unless you' ; re always going to have a teacher right ahead of you constantly doing, you know. So it' ; s hard to self-improve without a constant teacher or a constant reminder of the things you need to work on. So, and I would employ people to do that on their own by always having a teacher because you' ; re being guided a little too much. Take your own steps. So. Visintainer: I think that' ; s good advice. There was another thing I wanted to come back to and that was, you mentioned importing your subjects into your backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: And forgive me if I' ; m not phrasing exactly how you did. And I thought that was really interesting because you do portraiture, you go out, you look for people that I assume that are, that you want to have that are subjects. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of how you choose your subjects. Northington: (laughs) Yeah. Visintainer: And then I guess the follow up, you know, beyond the process of how you choose your subjects, then how do you insert them into the backgrounds? Do you choose your backgrounds and look for a subject or, what do you do? Northington: I don' ; t even decide, it decides itself. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, just being a student, you have to walk around campus, you take enough classes, you' ; ll go into every building on campus. So, been here almost four years now. So, I' ; ve been in every building. As I' ; m always walking, I' ; m seeing these scenes, making mental notes. I want a picture right there. I want a picture right there. Mental note--it just built this bridge across the street. I need a picture right there from the bridge. So, you know, and there' ; s a lot of tall buildings here. So, it gives for a lot of angles. A lot of birds-eye-views and worms-eye-views. So, it is a lot, it' ; s enough layers here, even in a compact campus. So, all of those backgrounds are constantly piling up. So now I have all these backgrounds. Now it' ; s about the people. Who do I want to use for the next photo? It' ; s all that random, you know, but I don' ; t want anybody too excited. I prefer a person who is on the edge of saying " ; No," ; but they' ; ll do it anyway. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That' ; s what I want. I don' ; t want somebody that, " ; Oh, I take a thousand pictures for social media every day." ; No, they usually are too excited, too much to calm down. That' ; s just been what I' ; ve seen just from taking pictures for three years. People that are over excited to take photos, it' ; s usually for me. Other people may be different, but for me it' ; s more difficult to get them to the look, the feel and the expression that I need for the photo. And that photo shoot would last two hours. When I could have got the picture in seven minutes with a person that' ; s more calm and mundane and melancholy. We can get the photo in seven minutes and then now I can spend thirty minutes getting a bunch of photos to use for later. So that' ; s more conducive for me. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, and I particularly want people who have never seen. So, the invisible people is what I want. Melancholy, invisible. That' ; s the people I want: the unseen. You know, people walk around every day and pretend like homeless people are not standing on the street with a sign asking for water or food. Yet, they' ; re walking a dog, picking up behind a dog, feeding the dog and walk right past a homeless human being, you know? So, we see this every day in society. So, the unseen get no support, no help, you know? They don' ; t get to smile. They don' ; t get to feel good about themselves, you know? We can change that. So that' ; s a part of the social activism of my work. I want the people who are less recognized, the people who may then have such a good time in middle school or high school, got picked on. Maybe wasn' ; t as tall as everybody else. Not as muscular, not as attractive, not as whatever, you know, " ; -ism" ; you want to use. Those people should be recognized, because everybody should be included. So, there' ; s no popularity contest with my photos. I' ; ve turned down more people than most. Because people that ask me to take their photos, it' ; s probably ninety-seven percent time, it' ; s a " ; No." ; I say " ; no" ; every week. So (laughs). Visintainer: When do you say " ; yes" ; when somebody asks you to? Northington: If it' ; s like a social, like, situation as I' ; m graduating? Okay. That' ; s a necessary-- to capture this moment. You know, [if] I' ; m having a birthday party, you know, something like that. People celebrate different, you know, different holidays and stuff like that. So, those are understood situations. But when it' ; s like, " ; Oh, can you take pictures of me? Can you take?" ; -- because it' ; s a lot of that. You know, people are doing that with phones every day. But when they find out somebody has a camera and oh, you take pictures a little, you know, on a little higher level than a camera phone. " ; Oh, can you get these pictures of me for this or for this?" ; you know, I get some of the same people over and over and over. Even after I' ; ve taken pictures for them, they' ; ll keep coming back for more and more and more. No, no, no. That' ; s enough. You have a phone on your camera. That' ; s enough. You know, because I believe you' ; ve already accomplished what we needed to with the photos. You feel good about yourself, you know? And you' ; re walking around elevated. Good. We made it happen. That' ; s so that' ; s enough for me. So, I don' ; t need to entertain that anymore. So, we trying to pick up the people who feel a little, you know, more lowly about themselves. Pick those people up. Visintainer: So, one of the things that I think separates beyond skill level, obviously that separates art and photography from say more commercial enterprises, like, you know, capturing a wedding or something like that is a philosophy or a thought process-- Northington: (both talking at once) Yes. Visintainer: (both talking at once) --behind the production of the art. And you' ; ve talked a little bit about, um, about how you want to make sure that the people that are unseen are seen. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: But I was curious if there' ; s other philosophies that you take into the production of your art as well? Northington: Yes. My photography is particularly for Black people. So, it does two things. It' ; s force feeds Black images, Black positive images into everybody' ; s purview. I' ; m going to force feed it. There' ; s something--this comes back to just being a kid and I will walk in Walmart with everybody else that goes to Walmart since they' ; re billions and billions of dollars every year. You walk in Walmart and, and maybe you just need a picture frame because you and your family just had a family reunion or your grandmother' ; s birthday was celebrated, and you go pick up this picture frame and the family in the picture frame stock photo never looks like me. Ever. So, that' ; s the standard. And then, you know, you play soccer, or me? I played tennis growing up and we win a little trophy and the figurine on top of the trophy is never me. It' ; s never my people. And then let' ; s say you fall in love with somebody, you get married and you go to the place to order your wedding cake. And you have to specially order the Black figurines and you wait a few weeks for it to come in the mail because everything in the store that' ; s standard is not me. It' ; s not my people. So, you can go across all media, all aspects of society. And the standard is one group. Everybody else becomes, you know? Well, they get to choose if they include you or not. So, what' ; s happened for many commercials, many movies? We have this idea of the token, we' ; ll insert one, you know, non-white person that could be anybody, you know? They may insert one Asian, one Latino, or one Black person, Disney movies do it all the time. Disney TV shows do it all the time. If you' ; ve ever seen South Park, they have a character called Token and he has a big " ; T" ; on his t-shirt and it' ; s a Black kid that lives in South Park, Colorado amongst all of the other white kids. You know? This is a real thing in life and in a place particularly like San Marcos, this is not a Black city. It' ; s not a Black area, you know? So, we have a lot of Black students here who were the one in their entire group of friends and, you know, sports, anything, they were involved in. So they' ; re not the standard. So going back to Walmart, let me go get, you know, some stuff, some products for my hair. And there' ; s an aisle called an " ; ethnic hair aisle" ; in Walmart. One aisle, two or three shells with hair products that' ; s supposed to be for me. And then there' ; s one, two, three, four, five whole aisles for the " ; standard" ; people. So, you know, the photography or the standard of people can be influenced by these things. So, you can learn to understand that you' ; re not included by growing up like that. And those are just a few aspects, you know? Cartoons, whatever--toys, everything. A lot of little Black girls were getting little baby doll toys or Barbies or whatever. And it doesn' ; t look like them. So, these things can help pull away at yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you view your skin, your hair, you know, your people in America. It could pull away and produce these negative aspects. And then you see yourself in film and you' ; re always a drug dealer, a crack head, a prostitute, on welfare. Forever. So much so that a movie like the Marvel Black Panther movie makes a billion dollars and it automatically changes so many people' ; s view. And it automatically brings up the feeling of a group of Black people. Or, 2008, when Barack Obama comes into office, you see the spiritual uplift of a bunch of Black people because of representation. And then he has so many books out between him and his wife. They produce different books. There' ; s so much photography of them. There' ; s so many art pieces that were made because they came into the office, you know? There' ; s a there' ; s a professional painter that did a huge piece on Michelle Obama. That' ; s famous all throughout social media, just for the representation. So, propaganda can be positive or negative. So, I' ; ll take my photography to create some more, just add to the positive end. So, I feel like anybody can do that. If you have a camera phone in your hand, everybody can do that. So, I just choose to be on the more positive end because all of my life has only been negative for my people through film, photography, or otherwise, you know? Just pull up any school website and look at the photos they use for the school website. I almost never see my people in any realm, any aspect. Just Google any business, you know? There became a trend that you would only see Black people in McDonald' ; s commercials and Cadillac commercials. And that' ; s been the trend for like thirty years. And then, you know, Black History Month comes up and then you' ; ll see somebody get inputted somewhere else, you know? Or like, the NBA is like eighty, eighty-five percent Black, but then during Black History Month, they have NBA Black history t-shirts that everybody in the NBA has to wear. So, you' ; ll get that one time and then everything else is standard, you know, stuff like that. So, that' ; s the way I look at it. I see it that way. I go, " ; Okay, how can we improve this?" ; I can put out more positive Black images. So, I will. So, I go look for people who may be down on themself, who may be just, " ; I' ; m just going to hide in the shadows," ; or, " ; I' ; m unseen," ; you know? That' ; s the people I would prefer if I--if they' ; re willing to be a part of it. And then just, you know, gradually go up and up and up. And then when we get too far to somebody' ; s just over-- " ; Okay, it' ; s enough." ; So, I' ; m just trying to get that aspect. That' ; s not really, picked out and use and you know, uh, it could be commercial art. It could be just, you know? Fine art, any way you want to take it, but these things are going to last forever. So that' ; s kind of the thought process behind the book. The photo books. They last forever. You can look back at this when you have kids and the grandkids and this event happened, you know? It happened. You have these yearbooks in high school. People always look back at the yearbooks, you know? A lot of grandmothers used to have this big photo album on a coffee table and you come to your grandmother' ; s house and look at all these photos, you know? So, since those were a part of my life, this was a part of the process. Like, okay, I could put all that together and let' ; s just tell a story with this book. And then, I use the book and find a social issue that affects Black people. So, and let' ; s try to correct that social issue through photography, using the Black students here and then give them these photos. And I gave many of them the books that are in the books. Now they get to say they' ; ve been a part of this. They get to know. Their family gets to know. So, these pictures get to now reverberate through the Black community. Much like if you saw, you know, Michelle and Barack Obama walk across the stage 2008. So, it gives some type of spiritual upliftment. You feel proud of yourself and who you are, versus comparing yourself to the stock photo in the picture frame at Walmart. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you talked a little bit about representation right now, and then we' ; ve talked in the past about representation. And this is not necessarily a photography-related question, but I was curious, as a person of color, when you' ; re out in the world and you don' ; t see representation all around you, what are the kind of the kind of self-care approaches that you take to remain positive in an environment where there' ; s an absence? Northington: Well, just the phrase you just use that I don' ; t use myself. " ; Person of color" ; is not in identifiable nomenclature for me or how I use for my people. You have notion such as " ; African American." ; That' ; s not--that' ; s not for me to use. That' ; s for other people. That' ; s only been around nineteen years. U.S. census in a year 2000 added " ; African American" ; as an identifying, you know, political term to be used. That didn' ; t exist before then. So, I did a project in the library about that, you know, that we did here. And I showed how the nomenclature of Black people have changed since 1790 census to today. So, there' ; s been, you know, quite a few terms and phrases. So, the phrase that is currently used now is " ; people of color." ; I don' ; t use that because you kind of amalgamate everybody into a group and that can be good in certain aspects. But for me, that adds more negative-- Visintainer: Okay. Northington: --For Black people, because we get away from talking about Black issues, and Black people by calling all issues of non-whites people of color issues. So, and a lot of these things need to be particular because people of color don' ; t get kicked out of high school for their hair. People of color are not being murdered at this such high rate by the police on TV. So that' ; s why I can' ; t use a term like that or a phrase like that. But I do understand why people use it and then it gets, you know, it gets, you used a lot, but I--I can' ; t use those terms because what affects Black people particularly is not a people of color issue, you know? People of color in hair that' ; s, you know, it' ; s such a different thing. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: --You know, just try to keep it a little more positive. And, uh, so, going back to your question. I would say, the women' ; s book in particular, the main issue was like, I just brought up, the hair. So, there' ; s black kids getting kicked out of school by the thousands every single year, just for having their natural hair, because my hair grows as my hair is supposed to. Your hair grows as it' ; s supposed to. How can this now be a factor in who can be in school and who can' ; t? And who' ; s unkept and who' ; s not, you know? So, we have Supreme Court rulings on this. Many states have their own state' ; s law and federal law doesn' ; t include, you know, the Constitution has nothing about hair in it, you know? Because that was the standard of one group of people. So, hair wasn' ; t an issue. So, we have a lot of state Supreme Court ruling and that led me to the focus of the first book I did on natural hair. So, in 2016, they had an Eleven Circuit Court Supreme Court ruling said employers could in fact discriminate against natural hairstyles. If they see it to be unfit, unkept, unprofessional. So, to even be allowed to do that legally, that' ; s not a people of color issue, you know, that' ; s Black-specific. So, I had to dive into that with the book. So, I went around campus and uh, just would just keep my eyes open for any Black people who just walked around freely with natural hairstyles, their natural hair all the way out, you know? Who may not believe in that " ; I' ; m going to be clean cut because society told me to," ; you know, my hair has to be cut off. Yet, I sit in class and see all these other races of people who get to enjoy their hair being as long as they choose to. And they' ; re not assumed to be violent or thug or unkept, you know? So, you could walk around with a ponytail and it wouldn' ; t be seen as anything other than hip. But I let my hair grow, and now society makes a direct connection from me and my natural hair to 1966 Black Panther Party. Just my natural hair alone, I get directly, " ; Oh, you like a Black Panther?" ; Why would they do that? You know why? Because the photography that existed in 1966, taking pictures of Black people in Black social movements, they all look like this with their natural hair, the men and the women have the same natural hair. So now, America, hasn' ; t seen that since the sixties, thousands upon thousands. So, you had about twenty-five to twenty-eight million Black people at that point. And for a lot of them to just be walking around naturally, completely, like this, that' ; s a different thing. Because it' ; s like, this group is very different than this group. And it' ; s almost like a highlighter, a notify, you know? And at this point, as you go to the " ; people of color" ; term, the term that was used at this point was " ; Afro-American." ; It' ; s in literature. It' ; s all over the place at this time. It' ; s in movies, everywhere. Interviews everything. Because it notified the hair. Afro-American. Well, that since passed and a lot of people went into different hairstyles and different things have changed. So much so that when now I exist, the only correlation is 1966 through the sixties and early seventies is Black Panther Party. So, I get that every day. Can I help change that? Yes. With the book, with the pictures. Particularly discussing hair and how my hair has to always be political. My hair has to always have a law. My hair has to always fit into the scheme of the society as they make the rules. So, we had to fully discuss this hair regulation policy, because it doesn' ; t just exist with that one employer for that one Supreme Court rule in an Eleven Circuit Court. This happens at every, it happens here. It happens when I go to job interviews, you know, I' ; ve been asked to cut my hair before and I just didn' ; t work at that place, you know? It' ; s a little different for me. What if I wanted to get a job that requires hats like an officer or, you know, a firefighter, baseball player. The hats are not made for me and my hair. That hats are made for the " ; standard" ; American. You know, if your hair lays down in a particular pattern, then a hat doesn' ; t change anything as far as your hair. Well, if I were a size seven hat with my hair low, that changes with my hair longer. It may not change as much as you because your hair would press down and it wouldn' ; t be, you know, wouldn' ; t be messed up. Anything like that. Well, it' ; s different for me or if I' ; m the only sector of society, that' ; s going to have such a significant difference in that manner. The rules didn' ; t change for me and for Black people. So, just trying to help point out some of these things, you know, with the books and with the photography. So, that' ; s why I said it can work in both ways. You' ; re uplifting Black people and then you' ; re throwing it in the face of everybody else. " ; Hey, this is who we are. This is what we look like. I' ; m born this way," ; you know? So, this is supposed to be the era of " ; inclusion." ; That' ; s one of the newest words being used in the last two or three summers. " ; Inclusivity." ; " ; Equity." ; And all of these things. Those sound good. And you know, people may have the best intent. But how inclusive are you? If you' ; re asking me to cut my hair, how inclusive are you? If you accept Black people, when their hair is straight, you know, processed. You accept that version. But that same Black woman, if she comes with a hair natural, it' ; s a problem. So much is a problem that many Black women get unrecognized when they come to work one week with their hair pressed and they come to work two or three months later with their hair like mine. " ; Oh, I thought we had a new coworker. I didn' ; t recognize you." ; You know, this happens every day. If I cut my hair right now, I guarantee you, I come to school next semester. Some people will--" ; Oh, I didn' ; t realize that was you." ; Because my face changed (laughs) due to my hair. You know, so, uh, being that our hair has seen is so negative and the negativity comes from the connection to the Black Power Movement throughout the sixties and seventies. So, one of the things, one of the greatest things is our bodies need to be seen as human and as positive. So, the photography about the hair includes that as well, you know? See us happy, we' ; re on campus, we' ; re students, you know, we' ; re coworkers. You need to get used to seeing us in our natural form, how we are. So, the people who may hate or have a disdain for those images, that' ; s a part of them seeing this as well. So, this is what it would do to people who are not Black and then uplift the people who are Black. So, we can kind of, you know, create some social change. So, you could be a little more uncomfortable with seeing a person that looks like me, because you' ; ve seen it. So, if I' ; m in a commercial, if I' ; m in that standard photo at Walmart, if I' ; m on the school website, you know. If my sister' ; s here, my mother' ; s on this. And we see Black people in films that are also teachers, that also work in the library, that also police officers. So, it becomes accepted. And now I don' ; t have such a, you know, a shocking response. When I see a person like me. There' ; s so many people are shocked by me walking around school. I' ; m in elevators, going up steps with people. And I keep getting that. The startled response from so many students just because of my hair, that' ; s it. So, we can help change some of these things. Visintainer: Um, to come back a little bit to people that are unseen. So, if you' ; re looking for people that are on the verge of not being interested in being photographed and you' ; re looking for people that are generally unseen. How do you go about convincing people to be seen? Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: If they' ; re used to not being seen (Northington laughs), and maybe comfortable not being seen. Or maybe they' ; re uncomfortable with it, but that' ; s kind of what they expect? Northington: So, I mean, that becomes the work. So, it can' ; t be easy. You know, if you want to do something easy, then I' ; ll just take pictures of people who want to, you know? And then for me, that' ; s not the right energy to go about it or to make the change. They want to be seen. Okay. Yeah. You know, then they' ; re already showing themselves. So, it' ; s not, to me, that' ; s not a fix. So, now when dealing with a person that may be more reluctant to do that. It' ; s not that I want to convince them. It' ; s that I sit down and have the conversation. Let' ; s think about ten years from now. If you make this decision, how will this affect you for ten years and ten years looking back, you know? Would you have been proud of this? You know, then I tell them my purpose for doing it, you know? Similar to some of these responses. Look at commercials, look at magazines. What do you involve yourself in on a daily basis? If you' ; re watching your social media, what do the ads look like? What are your favorite films? What' ; s your favorite music? So, look at the--already imagery of yourself. If you had the opportunity to make it positive, because, you know, there' ; s so much talk about these people do this to us. This group oppresses us this way. Those are true. So, what if I' ; m giving one small opportunity to go against that. To improve it? If my son, my daughter, my granddaughter, my great-granddaughter was able to see this great imagery of, you know, their great-grandfather or something. It uplifts them as a child. So, I can start that off from the beginning. And you are already fighting against some of the negativities against you from the beginning. So, what happens today? A lot of Black people are looking back to pictures of the Harlem Renaissance. Looking back at those, you know, Gordon Parks photos. This the, uh, what is this? Another woman, uh, [Carrie] Mae Weems, she--her photos as well. So, you have something to look back to something, to aspire to. All these images of Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. All these images of Jay-Z and Beyonce, all these, you know, you have these images to look forward to, to uplift you. You may even make some type of connection, and you can see a little bit of yourself in it, because it represents you a lot more than looking at the, uh, the Statue of Liberty or the Mount Rushmore, you know? Those are like things that are unattached to your culture or to your soul in a way, if you would see own people, you know, we have the Caesar Chavez statue on campus. Everybody probably generally understands that that' ; s okay, it' ; s a mark on the campus. What Caesar Chavez stands for, you know, the rights of migrant workers and all of those things. But then I would say there' ; s another aspect of people who look at that in a different way than even I do. But in other peoples they see more self-representation, more our people work for something. And then there' ; s a different connection. So, we can do that with statues. With imagery. So, I explain this to some of these people and then they make a decision off of that. Then some of them go, " ; Okay, you know what? I do want to do this." ; And then they may have already told themselves they want to be seen, but they don' ; t get the opportunity. They want to be included, but they don' ; t get the opportunity, and they don' ; t have the persona or the, you know, or the personality to kind of say, " ; Hey, you know, I like to take pictures and do this." ; So, I get to now become the conduit for that. And then some of the people go, " ; No, that' ; s not my arena." ; And then I have to take that. But I' ; d rather deal with it in that way than the person screaming. " ; Take pictures of me, take pictures of me." ; So that' ; s kind of how it goes. Visintainer: Thank you. Have you seen your kind of personal philosophy in relation to your art evolve over time? Northington: Yes. Yes. Uh, but the first idea of doing it from the hair perspective opened up so many other lanes, because then it goes, this is happening against Black people in society. So, let me walk down that and see how I can place that in images to where people can see the image and I don' ; t have to put words on the paper, you know? Tell the story without putting the words on the paper. And then it opens up another lane, another lane. So, I would say the involvement, the evolving of it comes from the first stance of looking at the hair situation. The involvement came from that, and then it' ; s just, this is happening, this is happening. Also, I' ; m in sociology classes, you know, I' ; m in a Black feminist thought class. Talk about Dr. Walkington. And I' ; m in a Black communities class. Talk about Dr. Muhammad. So, we' ; re talking about the aspects of Black immigration, the aspects of over sexual sexualizing Black women, you know? Things like this, more avenues. Now I can use that in the photography and help try to curve some of those negativities. So, it just continues to just go out and go out and go out. And more ideas are just constantly popping up. So, that would add to the evolving measure. And then these are open doors for me to take photography of so many other people, you know? So once the photos get posted online or other people post the photo, I took it in and tagged. Then now I' ; ll get a message saying, " ; Hey, can you take pictures of me at my birthdays coming up? I have my 22nd birthday. Me and my friends, can you come take--" ; then that' ; ll happen. And then from that, I had two different companies go, " ; Oh, hey, we have an event, uh, company that we constantly do events, ten or twenty a year. Are you available to take events for our-- take photos for our events?" ; So, I have one company I' ; ve been taking event photos for three years and another one for a year. And then, so it just keeps going and going and going. And then that adds for a lot of practice. Because I' ; m getting different lighting situations, indoor, outdoor, overhangs, you know, candlelit lights, you know? So everything' ; s a little different. So, it allows for a lot of practice to do the actual photography that I' ; m passionate in. So, that' ; s kind of some of the involvement. Visintainer: Okay. So, you' ; ve got a commercial aspect to what you' ; re doing then. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And you talk a little bit about how you utilize that to grow your personal art. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some of the things that don' ; t translate when you' ; re doing commercial photography to your artistic side? Northington: Um, we' ; re not really attacking any particular social issue when we' ; re doing commercial art, so it' ; s more, " ; Let' ; s enjoy life." ; The commercial art becomes more about enjoying life. Like, okay, it' ; s the time to fight against, you know, injustices, it' ; s the time to sit down and do your work and it' ; s the time to enjoy life. So, and the commercial art tends to just, you know, live in that arena. Let' ; s enjoy life, let' ; s have fun. But that also still becomes a correction because it used to be illegal for Black people to get together and hang out, you know? You have the slave codes of Virginia, 1684, they have slave codes and you can' ; t congregate, you know? South Carolina has some of the same slave codes and many of these things were supposed to be overturned and go out the window after the Civil War. Well, you know, those people still had jobs. So, whether the law changed or not, they still had jobs. So, they still kind of continue some of these practices. And this is where we see like a stop-and-frisk comes into play to where New York City police are growing up, stopping-and frisking can five or six Black dudes standing together. So, we can' ; t even be together, you know? There used to be a time where you could buy a house and have a party. Well, since I' ; ve been in California, those things seem to be illegal. You can' ; t even have a party at your apartment. Can' ; t have a party at your house. You can' ; t even congregate and have fun. So now people are forced to go rent out, you know, spaces and hotels and ballrooms. You got to rent out of space, pay a few thousand dollars to get people, to show up and party and have fun and then still pay for parking and all these things. It wasn' ; t like this in the nineties. In the nineties, you lived in a place that you pay rent. You can have a party. Well, those things are like illegal now. People just call the cops. You go, no partying allowed. You know, this is even on some paperwork when you go get an apartment: no parties. Some paperwork, for Homeowners Association of that house: no parties. So, I' ; m an adult, I' ; m a human, I can' ; t party. Because I choose to. I have to go to a club. I have to rent out a ballroom, you know? So, for Black people in particular, we need to be able to enjoy life as well with all of these stressors, you need to be able to enjoy life. So, even though this is commercial art, for some of these companies, these people are having fun and are having fun together, which is something that' ; s not promoted. They' ; ll show us fighting together, but not so much of us having fun together. So, there' ; s no balance of that. So, in that aspect of thinking, I get to help provide some balance to showing Black people, enjoying each other, having fun. And then go back home to their kids, their wives, their husbands, and their jobs and school and all of that. But they come together and congregate to have fun and we never get to see it. So. Visintainer: When it comes to your subjects for your photography, um, are there anything that you look for in particular? You' ; ve mentioned that you look for people that are--I guess maybe, you' ; ve already answered this. That you look for people that are unseen. You look for people that are reticent, to be photographed. But are there anything else that you look for in your subjects? Northington: Yes. I also look for Black community organizations or Black on-campus organizations. So, I' ; ve taken pictures for the Black faculty and staff, you know, because they have to have it. You should have photos out there. The Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, you know? There' ; s a Black fraternity here, Omega Psi Phi. Black sorority here, Sigma Gamma Rho. And I' ; ve taken pictures for all of them because they should have the photos out there, you know? If we' ; re not seen on campus and people pretend like we' ; re not here. So, we' ; re supposedly like 2.1, 2.2 percent of this campus. And you know, and that seems to be the trend all throughout the CSU, you know? There' ; s maybe two: Dominguez Hills and Cal State Long Beach in L.A. They' ; re in a particular area where there' ; s a high concentration of Black people right there in L.A. So, they have a little higher of a number. The rest of the CSU is right around two percent, three percent. So, with that, we' ; re not so much in a propaganda photography in videos at those campuses. Knowing that coming in, I want to particularly take pictures of these Black groups. So, I' ; ll offer my services to all of these Black groups and take pictures of any events that they' ; re doing, any tabling that they' ; re doing and stuff like. So, I have done that here and that' ; s a part of the focus, too. So, to make sure they' ; re supported in that way and, you know, and they can continue on because other than that--because you do an event here and the process is you go to office communication or go to a newspaper you can request photographers to come. And then sometimes they come and they stay for two minutes, take one or two pictures and they leave. And then for me that' ; s not enough, you know? They did their job, they did what they were supposed to do. They got the one or two pictures they' ; re supposed to get and they left. So, they did what they' ; re supposed to do. But for me, that' ; s not enough. For us, it' ; s not enough. Because we' ; re not being represented properly. So, we need to change that. So, when they do their events and sometimes, you know, these different Black organizations ask me to come do the photography, I' ; ll go do it. No charge, just do the event, edit the photos, put them out there. Even make some little slideshows of them and stuff like this. So, and that' ; s led to me doing the old people' ; s luncheon, some Halloween parties, and stuff like that on campus for even other organizations that are not Black particular. But this stuff now lasts forever. , it' ; s amazing. This is 2019, but if somebody' ; s not here, particularly taking pictures of Black people, none of this happened. Everybody' ; s living off memories, you know? That' ; s stuff that was done for people that graduated in [19]79 or [19]82 as a Black group of people. They' ; re talking about the memories of what we went through in four or five years of college. How is that still a thing? Because if nobody' ; s pointing them out and going, " ; We need to capture this on video on film," ; that this happened, they did this, they did this, they did this, you know? The biggest thing here was when we got the Black students in the spring of 2017, and then you have three students who really made the biggest push. So, the ASI [Associated Students Incorporated (student government)] President at that time was Tiffany Boyd. Then you have Jamaéla Johnson and then you have Akilah Green. All three of them were ASI and they made a huge push for us to get the Black Student Center as we needed. And this was a time that all of these Black people were being shot on TV. And, so, this was a very important need for Black students on campus. So, with those three people, we had to make sure they got recognized. So, I took pictures of them. They came for the grand opening. I hope one day that their names and pictures are on the wall in the Center to get their proper due. If that didn' ; t happen, and there' ; s no pictures, it all goes away and there' ; s a history forgotten. So, the photos become documentary automatically. Any photos of Black people almost automatically become a documentary and historical reference points. So that' ; s another point of keeping all of my photos. When you ask if I keep them. I just get to look back, you know? Even now I' ; ll look back three years ago when this person was a freshman or whatever. And, you know, it' ; s like, " ; Hey, remember this picture, remember this BSU [Black Student Union] meeting, or remember this event," ; you know? So. Visintainer: When you' ; re taking your photographs, what guidance do you give your subjects? Northington: To be calm, to try to, like, take away the stress that they have, you know? Because it' ; s almost exercise when you asked about some exercising, some positive things to kind of--because this, this also helps me, you know? This has becomes a tool of, uh, I mean, some people will call it a yoga, mental yoga, or a relaxation technique. Because just being able to take a picture of Black people and it makes them feel good. It makes me feel good. So, you know, you get to keep pushing that positive energy back into Black people. Because they need it just as much as anybody. So, if nobody' ; s going to be particular to help pull up Black people, I' ; m not going to sit around and fuss about it. What aspect can I add to it? So, I' ; ll continue to do that. So, it can help them as well, you know? Especially those people who are more quiet and shy and then they go, " ; Oh, this person wanted to put me in their book or wanted to put me in their video," ; and that can help change them and, and it help them grow and help them feel good about themselves so I could help them. They could help me. So that' ; s the way I take it. Visintainer: Can you tell me about a particularly satisfying moment in your photography? (Northington laughs) Something that really, really made you, you know--I think you get a lot of joy out of it in general. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: But something that really made you go " ; Well, I' ; m so happy to be doing what I' ; m doing?" ; Northington: Uh, well, a lot of these photos in the books, especially the Black women' ; s book, I printed out maybe seventy, eighty of these photos on a large canvas of like twenty-four by thirty-six. And I did a thing last year where I printed all these out on steel frames and some of them were on canvas and I gave these out to people or gave them to their mothers and to their grandmothers. And that was probably the most satisfying thing because you don' ; t normally see people from a socioeconomic deprivation to be, to make a jump, to have something that may be considered expensive artwork of their own in their house. So, imagine walking in your house and having your own huge portrait on metal, on steel, on the wall, and every time your family comes over, " ; Look, this is my daughter in college. Look, this is my son in college." ; And they had the picture taken by somebody on campus. When you would normally have to have enough income enough, you know, throw away money, to go pay for this. And it cost you three or 400 bucks. So, because it cost about 200 bucks for the photo. And then now for the photo photographer services, you might spend 500 dollars for something like that. Just for that joy. Well, I just give it to them and then they got that joy anyway. And they were sitting around talking about it. This one girl had her mother, her father, and her grandparents and her brothers and sisters at this event done by the Black SistaHood. It' ; s another Black organization on campus. And we did a natural hair event last year to particularly talk about our natural hair and how we treated and things we can do to improve, you know. So, and that was a part of it. So, I printed out these huge photos. So, when people walked in, they had a line of all these huge photos of Black men and women in their natural hair, smiling, loving it. And I handed out a lot of these photos at that event and these people with their family and they just loving, they posting it online and everything like. So that right there would probably be the peak, that right there. Visintainer: That' ; s cool. What' ; s the most difficult part of the process of photography or creating art for you? Northington: Uh, impatient people (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Yeah, or people that you' ; re trying to communicate with a person to do what you see in your head. That' ; s always difficult, you know? It' ; s almost like telling somebody to draw something out of your head. That' ; s the way I look at it. It' ; s almost that difficult sometimes because you know, people want to sit and stand like, " ; Okay, roll your shoulders back." ; And then they do the same thing. Okay. " ; Chin down," ; Because this is how people take pictures. " ; Okay, we' ; re going to take your picture." ; Okay. " ; Stand there." ; And then people do this, uh, you have to put your chin down, then they do this. Okay. (Visintainer laughs) You know? And then I' ; m like, " ; Alright, one millimeter, two millimeters to the left, to the right." ; You know, all right. " ; Don' ; t look at the camera," ; and then I' ; ll take the picture. Or when I get ready to take the picture. Okay, " ; One, two, three," ; and then they pop the same pose. Okay. Well, no, we already posed you. Sit still, " ; All right, let' ; s go." ; You know, and people have a--he did it. Shamar did it. He, you know, keep ticking his head to the left when it' ; s ready. All one, two, three. And then, you know, and I came to find out, a lot of people have a tick like that. Because people get used to taking photos. So, they have like a go-to pose. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So that go-to pose becomes a difficult thing a lot of times. So, that, and I never like it when, if people are not satisfied with the photo. So, there' ; s some photos that I put in the books that I really love and other people love them, you know, from the studios and everything. But then that person in the photo didn' ; t particularly like that one. So, we' ; ll take thirty or forty and I' ; ll ask them to choose. And then I' ; ll tell them the one I like. " ; You pick two or three and I' ; ll tell you one I like." ; Hopefully they' ; re the same, but in some cases it' ; s not the same. And then they' ; re not as satisfied as I am. So, I don' ; t like that part either. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: But, it' ; s a part of the process. So. Visintainer: Um, so you published two books of photography. The first book was inspired by the question of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: The representation of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Uh, what was the second book' ; s (unintelligible)? Northington: The second book is of Black men. So, the negative characterizing of Black men has always been thugs and criminals. Well, we have all these Black men here on this campus going to school that are not student athletes. They' ; re students, you know? So, they need to be recognized as being students. So, there' ; s plenty of Black men that have graduated from college. That' ; s not what you see on TV. You don' ; t see a college graduate Black man on TV, in a commercial that we know that' ; s what it is. The representation is always a sport, you know? (laughs) Music, you know? It' ; s pretty, after that, it gets thin, you know? So, uh, you can be a comedian, it' ; s entertainment, and it' ; s entertainment-based mostly, you know? And if that' ; s the eighty percent, the ninety percent, maybe even a hundred percent of what you' ; re going to encompass, it' ; s hard to see them as anything else. So, this determines a lot of how we treat people. If I only see Black men represented that way, but then I go home, nobody' ; s --and my home' ; s Black. I' ; m not Black. I live in a community that' ; s not Black. And my only visual of Black men is all this negative stuff. That' ; s going to play on my comfortability or how I treat them. So now I come to Cal State San Marcos, I get in the elevator and I see a dude like this. I may be a little disheveled. So, if we can change some of those things, because we can, and put out the positive imagery of Black men, then these things can start to, you know, disappear. So, with that in mind, when I did the book for the Black man, again, I want people with all different hairstyles or all different natural hairstyles. But I told them not to smile because I need you to be able to be accepted for having a straight, comfortable face. I' ; m just sitting in a class like this, or I' ; m just in my Uber, or I' ; m just, you know, at the ATM machine. You shouldn' ; t have to smile, dance, and entertain to be accepted. And those are aspects of vaudeville, ragtime, USA, you know? You can be accepted by this society, entertaining people as a Black man, but can you be accepted when you don' ; t entertain? When you just live life? And that' ; s why we have these, social things that are happening such as barbecuing while Black, driving while Black, shopping while Black. These things occur so much because of how other people view Black men, Black women, Black children. And then you' ; re already castigated and put into the box of criminal or not American, but other American. So, you viewed a certain way. Therefore, you' ; re treated a certain way. And then this causes stress on both ends. So now the stress is building up on us and then the stress is building up on anybody on the other side. And then now it clashes when you get to a campus, when you get to a work environment and you have this wall up on both sides. Well, that doesn' ; t make well for society. And it doesn' ; t do well for people' ; s mental health and spiritual health, especially the people on the end receiving all the negativity. So, we can help change some of these things. So, if I' ; m not the one causing the racism on myself, I' ; m not the one that needs to make the correction. So, the people viewing this and see these Black men, not smiling, being themselves, looking like me, looking like him, looking like all different aspects of Black men. And you get to view this in a book. They' ; re all students, they' ; re all at this university. They all go unseen. So, let' ; s put this out here. So now when you see this, it forms now, " ; Okay, this is a little different than the rapper I saw on TV. This is a little different than the guys I see being chased by the cops." ; So, I have to give you another element. So, it allows for some change, but people still have to make that choice themselves. So, that' ; s the point for that one. Visintainer: And then you have a third book you' ; re working on? Northington: Yes. And then the third book of this series, this is a series of books. The third book is called, " ; WE ARE," ; and it' ; s going to show the Black men and Black women together on campus doing regular life, you know? Studying, having fun, telling jokes, you know? Walking to their cars, walking to class, you know? Hanging out in the library, all different things, eating together, congregating, just enjoying each other' ; s company. Because again, that' ; s something we don' ; t see propagated by the country, you know? There' ; s a select few, you' ; ll get, you know? If there' ; s a people of color seminar, you know? There' ; s an African American scholarship, then you' ; ll see the commercial art for that be Black people smiling. So, it' ; s not, it doesn' ; t change the standard. That' ; s a particular thing for a particular group of people. And it, you know, it' ; s almost commodified in that way. I want to include us in the standard. So, including us in the standard becomes the change. So, I would look at it in that, in that realm. Visintainer: Do you have a, um, do you have a project after your next project? Are (unintelligible)? Northington: Yes. So as soon as I made the second book, I automatically thought I could just do a bunch of series. So, with this third book completing this series-- also, I did mention before, I think, I maybe told you on the side--all three books, I envisioned them already before I did them. So, I said, " ; I' ; m going to make another element to this." ; So, the books have the photography and I have a passage in the front of the book that explains the purpose of the book. And then every book has its own title, which I explained on the first page. Then the final page of every book has the thank yous of everybody that we included that gave you the energy to the book. And the thank yous are translated into a different African language. So, with each book, you' ; re going to learn a little bit of a different African language. Now, all three titles of the book in a series complete one sentence. So, the first book is called, " ; Solar Amalgamations." ; The second book is called, " ; HUEMAN." ; And the third book is called, " ; WE ARE." ; And the whole sentence is rearranged: " ; We are solar amalgamations." ; Well, " ; We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations." ; And that generally means, " ; We are stars," ; you know? We' ; re carbon-based human beings. So, this is the carbon-based world. So, and then the human part, I spell " ; H-U-E-M-A-N" ; you know? Denoting the shade or the " ; hue." ; Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, " ; We are human solar amalgamations." ; And that completes that trio. After that, there' ; s another book series I' ; m doing on older Black people that work on campus and things like this. So, I' ; m particularly looking for fifty [years old] and up, you know? So, and then another series is going to be on Black families and it' ; s going to go on and on and on and on and keep going with that. So, this sparked just a different--and I can, I think I' ; m going to do this by just (unintelligible), and I' ; ll be able to keep adding more series. So, and that' ; s what that' ; s going to do. So, and then this third book should be out. I want it to be done now, but people' ; s schedules, it' ; s always tough. The more people that are in the photos, it gets tougher. So, it was a little easier to do the first two books because it was individuals. And then I could put it together in a week or something after I got all the photos, I spent one week putting the whole book together. But we groups. So, these photos are going to be done in groups. It' ; s going be at least two people in every photo. And I' ; m trying to get some photos of six and seven and twelve people, you know? To add to that, the aspect of us together, " ; WE ARE," ; that' ; s the title. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, it should show us together. So, it may take a little longer than I thought and it may not come out into the spring. So. Visintaier: That' ; s a lot of scheduling direct. Northington: Yeah, yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: And I have to be the most free because I have to work with everybody else' ; s schedule. So Visintainer: I think that' ; s all of the questions that I had. Northington: Okay. Visintainer: Was there anything that I should have asked you about that I didn' ; t? Northington: The recent recognition that' ; s happening that never happened. I' ; ve been here going on my fourth year, as I said. And when I spoke about people being invisible, that includes me as well. So, I had to sit back and watch my fellow students that are in class with me, get their work recognized every year, every semester, over and over, you know? People that ask for my help or people that I ask for help. We' ; re all in the same class. And you know, there' ; s a nursing program, they all go to the same classes. There' ; s sociology, they all-- same thing with art. We' ; re all in the same classes, especially in my student discipline, art and technology, we' ; re all in the same classes. So, to see some of those students get their work put out or get recognized or see their work, you know, in different areas on campus or whatever I say, " ; Okay, this is how this works." ; So, it doesn' ; t stop. It doesn' ; t turn off. So now, you know, you just come here and then you see the work in the, in the art-- it all just linked up. The students in the art department that put on the exhibit, the art juncture, you know, they reached out because a few of my art professors let them know. So, all of those pieces kind of came together at once. So, you know, I did old people' ; s luncheon, I did photography for them, did their programs and all these other things. This all happened in one month. That part, the school newspaper reached out to me and did an interview and they put it in a newspaper and they posted my photos. Another group of people for Art Equals Opportunity that they work in a--in the San Diego area using art to help students, you know, learn the lessons of English, you know, history, science, and everything. But using the conduit of art, they posted me on their website. All of this happened in the same month. And then you walk in, you know? And your coworker sees the work and then we meet to do this. And all, all of this just happened at once. That' ; s just that. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Then the last, last week I submitted some of these photos to, ah, Lycoming College. It' ; s in, uh, Pennsylvania. It' ; s in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And there was this huge national search for all Black art for their exhibit called " ; Blurred Expectations." ; That' ; s open now. It just opened today. Everybody across the country submitted. Somebody that knew me said, " ; Hey, you should submit your stuff to this." ; I submitted it. Boom, immediately. They was like, " ; Yes, it' ; s in." ; So, once this exhibit ended here, the very next day, I had to take it down and ship it. Visintaier: Yeah. Northington: Uh, to Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And it' ; s up right now in their exhibit. And then ASI, the ASI student government here, just accepted one of my pieces for that art project. So, within two months, this semester, all of the work I' ; ve been doing for years, you know? Some of this book is 2017. This book is 2018., you know? And I' ; m currently doing--so these things are year, two years old, after I watch all of my, you know, fellow students be recognized. All of mine is coming right here in two months. So that' ; s, you know, that' ; s been a big change. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, congratulations. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: How long is the exhibition in Virginia up for? Northington: Until the beginning of February. So, they got a couple of months. Yeah. I think it' ; s right at two and a half months. Something like that. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: No, the end of November. All of December. All of January. Yeah. So, it' ; s right at like two and a half months. Think they got like eight week-- Visintainer: (both talking at once) Is there going to-- Northington: (both talking at once) --be six week, ten weeks, something like that. Visintainer: Is there going to be a digital component to it? Northington: Well, they' ; ve been posting videos and uh, you know, tagging all of the artists in it and everything like that. And they made--they made a social media page, they made an Instagram page. So that' ; s how everybody' ; s keeping up who' ; s not in their area at that school. And it' ; s like a huge four-year private institution. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: That costs like ten times as much as this school to go to. So, it' ; s-- and it was a national search. So, it' ; s-- it is, it is good to add to, ah, you know, to a resume for something like that. So, I mean (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: You know, it' ; s like on my way out the door, I have all these résumé items now that didn' ; t exist before, you know? Even though I' ; ve done so much work on this campus going unrecognized, but it' ; s now, it' ; s now all happening right now at the perfect time. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: I can appreciate that. So, uh, and I also wanted to mention all the supporters that helped over this time. So, Miss Ariel Stevenson from the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Uh, Mrs. Marilyn McWilliams, Office of Inclusive Excellence, Dr. Sharon Elise, you know? These are people who supported me from the beginning to now. No holds barred, you know? They even got a little flack, you know, at times, because I' ; m not as accepted as everybody else. So, you know, they' ; ve asked me to do different projects on campus. They supported, they came to all of the events, you know? We established another club on campus: The Black SistaHood to encompass all these elements I spoke about, about photography, my photography, Black-specific, and how it assist in helping us get through this society and try to make some things positive where we turn that into a student club and organization. So, that' ; s why I have this. That' ; s why wore this sweater for this interview. So no, and this is more pushing love for people, you know? Loving each other, breaking through some of these stereotypes and turning these negatives into positives and becoming, you know, great people in life. So, and a lot of that' ; s going to be exemplified in the third book, in the, " ; WE ARE" ; book, you know? So, uh, been a part of Black Student Union since I' ; ve been here, you know? Some--there was some people in the sorority, Black sorority and Black fraternity, Sigma Gamma and Omega Psi Phi, a few, there' ; s a few individuals that supported me and helped as well. And then the Black Student Center itself has been the hub for all of this. So once that was established and created, it allowed me a centered space because before I had to walk around the entire campus, like loop every building and hang out during every U-hour, whether I had class or not. And just try to like find people. So that' ; s what I had to do before. And it' ; s like the people out here right now, " ; Are you registered to vote? Are you registered to vote?" ; I was one of those people. With my camera and no book because the book is not made yet. So, I' ; m out here with a printed sheet of paper. " ; Hey, would you like to take a photo for my project?" ; And this-- and that was not as, you know, as presenting, you know, as to walk up with an already made book. So, once I got the first book, I got more yeses. Once I had two books, I got--you know, so the yeses come a lot easier. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, having the, the Black Student Center here, I get the crowd now. So now I have more people to choose from and it' ; s just so much easier to do it now than it was, you know, in 2016, when I started the first book. So, it' ; s a lot easier now. So, that may--that may be it. And uh, as long as you using the terminology " ; Black," ; because I don' ; t, I don' ; t use " ; African American" ; or " ; people of color." ; Visintainer: Yeah Northington: So, while y' ; all printing this, any, any printing that has to be done uh-- Vistintainer: I' ; ll, I' ; ll send you any verbiage that we do. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And then that way you can look it over and-- Northington: Okay, okay. Visintainer: Correct me, if I' ; m making a mistake. Northington: (laughs) Well, you know, it' ; s not a mistake for other people, but for me that, you know, it just doesn' ; t work for me. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, that might be it. And then shout out to the, the people who are coming behind me, you know, Shamar. We got (unintelligible) Williams. She' ; s been working with me the most here. So, she' ; s a senior now and she' ; s in my same major field: visual performing arts. And she' ; s helped a lot over the last year because I' ; ve been just forcing her and pushing her to do her photos, to do her artwork, you know? And then as I mentioned with Gordon Parks, this isn' ; t one element, like I told you before, the photo is just one thing that I' ; ve done on this campus. So, I make these shirts, I make these logos, these designs, you know? So, all of the BSU gear you' ; ve seen, all of the Black Student Center gear you' ; ve seen for the most part, all the Black SistaHood, Black Brotherhood, you know, Transitions Collective. I did some logos for them. Project Rebound, I' ; m designing a logo for them right now. So, there' ; s so many elements to the artwork that I produced on campus. So, and I' ; ve done about four or five, like a components--we just saw the art exhibit. But then I already did two exhibits here in the library and we' ; re working on the third with the art department right now on sustainability. So, I have an art project, uh, a water art project that' ; s going to be in sustainability, you know? If that happens in the spring, that' ; s still talking about that. I did a sustainability project with ASI about straws. And this was right before they banned straws on this campus. We were trying to make a push to get rid of straws and how this affected the aquatic life. And we, you know, we created like a sea turtle with a straw in his mouth and shows how this kind of messes them up. So, uh, spent a lot of things like that on campus. So, I just want to make sure it' ; s not just photography. Visintainer: Sure. Northington: I would say it' ; s art and I' ; m sure you understand that it' ; s art and, but this part is the photography, but there' ; s so much more that I' ; ve been a part of on campus than that. And now I want the next group of people like Shamar to come along and continue it. Because if I--you know, once I leave it' ; s over, it shouldn' ; t be, it shouldn' ; t end. It should be fifteen, twenty more people. So, I try to do my part and help them learn the right avenues, meet some people, you know? That' ; s why I asked them to come and be here and to see a different process, you know? " ; Okay, this is where I started. And then I could do this, this, this, this, this." ; They can do the same thing I' ; m doing, you know? It' ; s not, it' ; s not that special. You have to do the work, you know? You have your vision, you have what, your passion and then you need to do the work. And you' ; ll get everything that you want out of it. So. And that' ; s, that' ; s probably all I got right there. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: Well, thank you, Jake. Northington: (both talking at once) No problem. Visintainer: (talking at once) I really appreciate you coming by and chatting with us. Northington: Make sure we see, uh- Visintainer: Yes. Northington: The women that I love. And then the men' ; s book. And the third book will be coming soon. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Alright. Visintainer: Thank you, sir. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you have questions regarding usage of this oral history. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.xml NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.xml
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Northington, Jake. Interview November 22, 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. In this interview, Jake discusses his artistic influences, the importance of Black representation in his photography, and his involvement in CSUSM’s Black Student Center and the Black SistaHood.
Identifier
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SC027-13
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Artists, Black
California State University San Marcos -- Black Student Center
California State University San Marcos -- Students
Portrait photography
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2019-11-22
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video
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East Saint Louis (Ill.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Jake Northington
Creator
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Jake Northington
Contributor
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Sean Visintainer
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Activists and activism
Art and artists
Black experience
CSUSM history
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Riccardo Savo
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dinah Poellnitz
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml
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5.4 SC027 Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. SC027-025 1:06:11 SC027 California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Dinah Poellnitz Riccardo Savo Audio PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05 1:|12(18)|22(4)|33(2)|44(5)|57(13)|67(4)|77(15)|88(4)|102(14)|114(6)|130(6)|140(4)|150(11)|161(15)|173(4)|183(11)|196(7)|209(3)|220(15)|233(1)|245(3)|255(12)|265(16)|277(11)|287(10)|298(7)|310(4)|320(3)|333(12)|343(18)|354(1)|366(9)|376(1)|386(1)|397(2)|407(17)|424(2)|432(13)|442(5)|454(1)|463(7)|474(1)|485(3)|497(13)|508(2)|518(4)|531(5)|542(11)|553(12)|567(11)|578(4)|595(10)|605(12)|616(9)|627(5)|638(15)|648(10)|660(4)|668(10)|680(5)|690(5)|701(13)|710(8)|722(3)|736(6)|750(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4344d88bc2e671e3ad4b1f4ea85cfba8.wav Other audio English 40 Interest in Art and How Art Relates to Community Engagement Poellnitz discusses how she initially was exposed to art at the age of 11, where she began to take up drawing through a family friend. drafting material ; drawing ; North County ; Oceanside 216 High School and the 1990s Dinah Poellnitz describes how her interest in art coincided with the development and mainstreaming of hip-hip during the 1990s. She mentions how she was drawn to the expressionist element that art represented. dance ; hip-hop ; Oceanside,CA ; Vista,CA 246 Self-Engagement with Art Dinah Poellnitz elaborates on how her interest in fashion and making her own dresses instilled her creativity in making art with intention. She mentions her time at Santa Monica College where she got to see firsthand how art could be used as a language to communicate, organize, and protest. art intentionality ; fashion ; Santa Monica College ; Soul Train 508 Art History and University of California, Riverside Dinah Poellnitz discusses how her networking in college at both Santa Monica College and UC Riverside helped to expose her to the business part of art. Poellnitz decided to double major in art history and art administration to learn what it means to operate a studio gallery and exhibit. Amy Goodman ; Intentionality ; Politics ; Santa Monica College 606 Getting a Job in the Art Industry Dinah Poellnitz discusses more broadly how she transitioned from her initial job positions in Los Angeles, CA to San Diego's North County. Beginning with the Oceanside Museum of Art, Poellnitz's experience in volunteering with youth led to learning about civic engagement and city planning. Primarily, she focuses on the challenges and inequities that she observed amongst Black children who had no prior engagement with art materials and what it means to be an artist. Hill Street Country Club ; inequity ; Los Angeles ; North County ; Oceanside Museum of Art ; Vista, CA 1196 Artist Networking in San Diego and Oceanside Dinah Poellnitz mentions how her idea to create the Hill Street Country Club came from the contacts that she developed with other local artists in Oceanside. In particular, she recalls an instance she met the owner of the Link-Soul art space, Jeff Cunningham, who provided her with the opportunity to create a space of her own. Art Exhibitions ; Link-Soul ; Oceanside Education Department ; Oceanside Museum of Art 1546 The Networking and Structuring of the Hill Street Country Club Dinah Poellnitz elaborate on the two primary contacts that assisted in her founding of the Hill Street County Club. Jeff Cunningham ; Julia Fister ; Studio Ace Art Gallery 1652 Hill Street Country Club Art Exhibit and Activism Dinah Poellnitz discusses the challenges in funding that came in comparison to other local exhibits in the North County. Specifically, Poellnitz elaborates on how the Hill Street Country Club's artists all share similar outlooks on the art industry and how their work is a critique of social inequities. autonomy ; inequity ; microaggression ; social impact 2017 Hill Street Country Club and the Pandemic Dinah Poellnitz provides insight to how Hill Street Country Club had to adapt to the changes brought on by the 2020 pandemic and remain open despite other exhibits closing their doors. 2020 pandemic ; mental health 2222 The Economic Hardships of the Pandemic within the Art Community Dinah Poellnitz offers an insight on the effects that the traumatic events of police brutality had on those within the Black art community. Poellnitz reflects on the general mood and tone of the Oceanside community during the initial months of the pandemic. community conversations ; empathy ; liberation ; resources ; solidarity 2448 Changes in both Activism and Structure Dinah Poellnitz briefly mentions how Hill Street had to evolve over the course of the pandemic, providing the creative space to assist in the mental health crisis that developed over the course of 2020. group therapy ; Oceanside Unified School District ; The Social 2724 Oceanside Unified School District and Group Therapy for Middle School Children Dinah Poellnitz goes into detail discussing how Hill Street offered children from Jefferson Middle School group therapy sessions to handle with the stress from the pandemic. She elaborates on the lengths that Hill Street had to change to adhere to COVID protocols with social distancing and interaction. cohorts ; COVID-19 ; Jefferson Middle School ; social camp 3065 The Community Reception to Hill Street's Restructuring and Outreach Dinah Poellnitz describes how Hill Street became a model of inspiration during the pandemic for other exhibits to follow. She offers the reception that Hill Street received from the local community for their initiatives with the Oceanside Unified School District. budget ; gallery space ; impact ; influence 3512 The Future of the Hill Street County Club Dinah Poellnitz provides the vision that she hopes for the Hill Street Country Club, primarily the creation of a Community School. While much of this vision has not been enacted, Poellnitz offers some of the challenges that would come in the face of creating a K-12 community school. bigger institution ; community school ; organizations ; partnerships wav Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Video briefly discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I' ; m interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you' ; re not able to have the video, so we' ; ll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that' ; s like a childhood memory question for me. I' ; m from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom' ; s from the South. She' ; s from Louisiana and you know, my mom' ; s about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there' ; s a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there' ; s a, there' ; s... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. < ; laughter> ; Savo: That' ; s awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor' ; s in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can' ; t if that, if art club' ; s about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don' ; t have time for that. That' ; s real. I was just like, I don' ; t even, I' ; m not even curious to learn that. I don' ; t wanna do that. Cause that' ; s what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that' ; s kind of like that, that' ; s a habit. Um, yeah, ' ; cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There' ; s like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don' ; t wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don' ; t wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that' ; s when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that' ; s when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I' ; m a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it' ; s just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I' ; m just like, hmm, I don' ; t know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it' ; s a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don' ; t like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hip-hop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. < ; laughs> ; I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative ' ; cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn' ; t know what I was gonna do. I didn' ; t know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, " ; Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it." ; ' ; Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it' ; s a great gallery in Oceanside and you don' ; t really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn' ; t have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the< ; inaudible> ; was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very < ; inaudible> ; in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I' ; m gonna lean a little heavy. Like now that I' ; m back in Vista, I' ; m gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that' ; s when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn' ; t know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what' ; s possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, " ; okay, why don' ; t we have public art again." ; And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it' ; s not, political is a message, it' ; s political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn' ; t even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn' ; t like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn' ; t know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that' ; s how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn' ; t have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn' ; t have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I' ; m sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You' ; re just like, dang, kids don' ; t have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who' ; s just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me ' ; cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that' ; s in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I' ; m like, art is involved in literally your whole life. You just don' ; t know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don' ; t know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn' ; t just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it' ; s just, we didn' ; t, Oceanside didn' ; t have an infrastructure for art. Like we' ; ve made a lot of improvement, but we didn' ; t have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren' ; t funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn' ; t engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, ' ; cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It' ; s owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there' ; s a lot there. There' ; s also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn' ; t get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I' ; m like, " ; you need an education department. It' ; s necessary." ; We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we' ; re like, " ; Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?" ; And they' ; re like, no. And then we' ; re asked like, " ; Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?" ; " ; Uh, not right now. No." ; And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you' ; re gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you' ; re taking up the city' ; s name and you' ; re having fifth graders come in and you' ; re getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that' ; s just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called " ; Open to the Public" ; and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, ' ; cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it' ; s not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it' ; s like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don' ; t have it. It was like, " ; I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?" ; And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn' ; t afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, ' ; cause we weren' ; t really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don' ; t know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one' ; s ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don' ; t know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. ' ; Cause I didn' ; t know that there' ; s so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that' ; s involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret' ; s mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it' ; s focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she' ; s in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That' ; s where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that' ; s different, that' ; s more authentic and doesn' ; t have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it' ; s natural. It' ; s interesting ' ; cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That' ; s awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it' ; s not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it' ; s so funny cause every time I get asked like, " ; oh are you an artist too?" ; Like," ; yeah, I' ; m an artist, I make work, but I don' ; t make it anymore." ; I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it' ; s, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you' ; re not respected with pay whatsoever, ' ; cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn' ; t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there' ; s, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn' ; t see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there' ; s uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you' ; re like Black and people don' ; t even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You' ; re like, you' ; re dealing with so many microaggressions, you' ; re dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it' ; s okay if you' ; re racist, I get it. You' ; re not me. You don' ; t have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I' ; m gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I' ; m always gonna speak up for what I-- what you did. And I' ; m gonna not call you out, but I' ; m just gonna call you in and say like, " ; hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?" ; And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they' ; re not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don' ; t work for anyone and I don' ; t have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I' ; m trying to get paid, I' ; m dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I' ; m like, I just don' ; t like people being in pain. I' ; m an empathetic person. I, I don' ; t know, I' ; m pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I' ; m gonna use it. I' ; m not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they' ; re pointing out problems and they' ; re doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it' ; s very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it' ; s critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it' ; s not just yourself. It' ; s like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it' ; s a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it' ; s opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it' ; s become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,-Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, " ; we really never stopped working during the pandemic." ; I was like, we didn' ; t, we couldn' ; t afford to. We' ; re vulnerable. We don' ; t have board members with money. We don' ; t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we' ; re doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That' ; s just reality. Like, you gotta think money. And it' ; s, that' ; s just how it works. It' ; s an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn' ; t wanna get Covid. So, I don' ; t know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now--Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I' ; m the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I' ; ve been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don' ; t see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who' ; s not taking care of us, we know who doesn' ; t protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. < ; laughs> ; You know, like checked on us. And I was like, " ; Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting." ; And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like " ; I hope this isn' ; t discourage her." ; Or maybe I' ; m just thinking that in my head, I don' ; t know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don' ; t know. I was just adapting. I think that' ; s what you do when you' ; re in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you' ; ve, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there' ; s this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, " ; The Social," ; and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it' ; s like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they' ; re still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That' ; s kind of traumatic. And then we' ; re asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, " ; The Social," ; with the therapist for young people. And now we' ; re gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we' ; re now like, we created a program that' ; s gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with < ; inaudible> ; Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who' ; s from Puerto Rico. And they' ; re working about all these social issues and we' ; re coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we' ; re all living through this. It' ; s not just Puerto Rico, you know, it' ; s everywhere. We' ; re all surviving. I' ; ve been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I' ; m excited about that' ; s gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I' ; m just like, " ; You guys are making this process way too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family." ; Not everyone' ; s out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we' ; re-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don' ; t normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you' ; re gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs < ; inaudible> ; . Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I' ; m really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they' ; re coming, they' ; re gonna go back in the summer. They' ; re gonna start back in the summer and we' ; re gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we' ; re returning to that program in the summer. And we' ; ll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I' ; m also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it' ; s a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it' ; s so interesting ' ; cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner' ; s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn' ; t be in the space with them. We' ; ll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with " ; The Social," ; " ; The Social" ; was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don' ; t show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist' ; s talks on Zoom. We had like -- what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn' ; t see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That' ; s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and ' ; cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn' ; t just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don' ; t know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the-- < ; Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other> ; I' ; m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, " ; oh, you' ; re here now. I' ; m like, yes." ; And then just we love everything that you' ; re, like, people from the arts commission knows what we' ; re doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It' ; s wild. And it' ; s like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he' ; s like, " ; you can' ; t be mad if people are copying. Isn' ; t that what you want?" ; I was like, " ; Oh yeah, that' ; s how that works, huh?" ; Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn' ; t think about it like that. And he' ; s like, " ; Yeah you just keep doing what you' ; re doing. If they wanna do what you' ; re doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they' ; re willing to go." ; And you know, that' ; s, that' ; s been like the best advice I' ; ve ever had doing this work. Because it' ; s true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who' ; s quiet and not doing anything ' ; cause they' ; re scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it' ; s because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there' ; s always gonna be resistance. There' ; s always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That' ; s gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I' ; ve just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we' ; re at a point where I' ; m kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I' ; m exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there' ; s also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we' ; re in because of the work that we' ; ve done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I' ; m hyper aware and I' ; m being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I' ; m being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I' ; m learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it' ; s also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I' ; ve just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don' ; t have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it' ; s like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we' ; re strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that' ; s a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don' ; t share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like " ; Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?" ; I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you' ; re making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there' ; s gonna be some hardship ' ; cause I won' ; t be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I' ; m highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I' ; m honest with myself. So it' ; s easier for me to commit, but because I' ; m honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you' ; re heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you' ; re here, you always can find a solution. And because that' ; s what' ; s worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they' ; re like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach ' ; em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It' ; s like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art practice. I don' ; t know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you' ; ve given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad' ; s. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you' ; ve been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can' ; t adapt. So, when they can' ; t adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don' ; t, we don' ; t follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we' ; ve been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. < ; laughs> ; Savo: Oh, absolutely < ; laughs> ; Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative ' ; cause we' ; ve had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don' ; t have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don' ; t know, that' ; s the civic identity for me. You know, that' ; s part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I' ; m just curious about the age groups. Something I' ; m actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Poellnitz: I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know. That' ; s a lot of years. < ; laughs> ; Savo: It' ; s a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It' ; s a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it' ; s already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we' ; re all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That' ; s awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don' ; t think so. You' ; re fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it' ; s great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I' ; m from the South Bay, so I wouldn' ; t know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-025
Subject
The topic of the resource
Art -- Study and teaching
Art galleries -- nonprofit
Artists, Black
Community engagement
COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts
COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside
Women artists
Date
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2023-04-05
Format
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audio
Creator
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Dinah Poellnitz
Contributor
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Riccardo Savo
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Los Angeles (Calif.)
Oceanside (Calif.)
Vista (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Dinah Poellnitz
Activists and activism
Art and artists
Black experience
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience