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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Julia Friedman
Interviewee
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Leea Pronovost
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml
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Activism (LGBTQ)
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5.4 Oral history of Leea Pronovost, April 8, 2022 SC027-18 1:16:52 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Transgender people -- Civil rights Activism (LGBTQ) Leea Pronovost Julia Friedman mp4 PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.mp4 1:|14(8)|21(14)|30(2)|36(8)|44(3)|54(13)|62(11)|70(6)|77(4)|91(7)|98(1)|104(2)|112(2)|119(11)|127(11)|135(11)|144(1)|155(8)|167(12)|175(1)|181(10)|189(1)|194(8)|201(8)|210(5)|217(6)|227(8)|236(1)|244(11)|252(11)|261(10)|269(2)|276(6)|283(8)|291(14)|299(10)|308(2)|316(11)|324(12)|332(15)|340(3)|345(11)|353(10)|361(7)|367(6)|375(8)|383(1)|390(1)|398(11)|405(14)|417(7)|430(6)|437(7)|444(1)|451(3)|463(2)|473(9)|481(14)|490(11)|500(2)|512(6)|523(11)|534(15)|542(5)|549(13)|558(1)|568(10)|576(1)|582(13)|597(9)|604(6)|611(2)|616(17)|623(6)|631(7)|649(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b85338e1bff43294d1016cc0062ca02f.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and childhood Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Leea Pronovost discusses her experience growing up in a conservative and homophobic household in Springfield, Massachusetts during the 1960s. childhood ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; Springfield (Mass.) ; transgender ; transphobia 309 Time in the Navy Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Leea Pronovost discusses exploring her gender identity through cross-dressing, as well as her time in the Navy, beginning in 1977. Cross-dressing ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; transgender ; transphobia ; United States. Navy 572 Coming out/ Turning towards activism Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Leea Pronovost discusses coming out as a transgender woman in 2006 after a near-death experience. After coming out, Pronovost turns towards activism after noticing the hurdles that transgender people face in terms of access to medical treatment, or lack of protections in the housing or job markets. Activism (LGBTQ) ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender 1098 Activist activities Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbian stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So. Leea Pronovost describes her experiences partnering with a plethora of LGBTQ+ activist organizations. Pronovost collaborated with organizations on the East and West Coasts, in fields and topics such as education, peer support, suicide prevention, prison reform, politics, housing, and gender advocacy. Activism (LGBTQ) ; California. ; Gay-straight alliances in schools ; Greenfield (Mass.) ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; Massachusetts ; New Hampshire ; Oakland (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; PFLAG ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; Transgender Law Center ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Tri Ess (Organization) 3098 Advocating towards inclusivity Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Leea Pronovost discusses her thoughts about inclusivity in society. She hopes that society will become more inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community, but believes that it may take many more decades before society’s acceptance of LGBTQ+ people can happen. She also discusses the Biden administration’s legislative’s initiatives to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Activism (LGBTQ) ; Biden, Joseph R., Jr. ; California ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Vista (Calif.) 3748 West Coast and East Coast LGBTQ+ politics Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Leea Pronovost discusses the similarities and differences between LGBTQ+-related politics on the West and East Coasts. California ; Connecticut River Valley ; Massachusetts ; Menifee (Calif.) ; Northampton (Mass.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Vista (Calif.) 4167 The importance of empowering others / Conclusion of interview Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone, and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Leea Pronovost concludes the interview by summarizing what she has learned throughout her career working as an activist and the importance of intersectionality in LGBTQ+ advocacy. transgender ; transphobia Oral history Leea Pronovost is a transgender activist and has been advocating for transgender and LGBTQ+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Now residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost is a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she works as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chairs the Gender Advocacy Project, and is a grant writer. Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn' ; t exactly a very pleasant childhood, let' ; s put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother' ; s house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written " ; Master." ; And I didn' ; t know that word--I didn' ; t. So, she told me what it was, that it was a " ; Master" ; and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister' ; s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister' ; s name because of what' ; s different than mine. And, uh, it was " ; Miss" ; and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, " ; There' ; s something wrong here." ; And I think, " ; I' ; m supposed to be more like the ' ; Miss.' ; " ; (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that' ; s why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That' ; s one of my earliest memories. After that it didn' ; t get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn' ; t, I ended up joining the Navy. But that' ; s (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn' ; t exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that' ; s how I felt. So, it wasn' ; t an easy time, believe me. But that' ; s pretty much my basic childhood. Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I' ; m sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn' ; t--I didn' ; t even, I don' ; t think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them " ; transsexuals," ; which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that' ; s the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister' ; s clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn' ; t do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn' ; t want " ; my kind" ; there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I' ; m like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, " ; mentally disturbed," ; because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to " ; fix them," ; so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn' ; t, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I' ; m one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we' ; ve come, there' ; s still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that' ; s okay and talk about your years in activism. You' ; ve been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn' ; t start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn' ; t come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn' ; t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there' ; s even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn' ; t understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I' ; ve heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn' ; t even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say " ; No," ; because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that' ; s what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don' ; t have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, " ; I want be like that person." ; Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s me when I grow up." ; But yet, then I find out that they' ; re either the joke or they' ; re, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I' ; m like, " ; Okay, well, that' ; s not me." ; So, I' ; m not like that, but you know, here I am, that' ; s who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn' ; t alone and there' ; s a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we' ; ve been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I' ; ve been around forever (laughs). It' ; s just so something that hasn' ; t been known, that' ; s all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There' ; s some tribes that don' ; t even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn' ; t have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That' ; s really interesting. And I' ; m glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn' ; t say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don' ; t agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they' ; re the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, " ; Hey, they' ; re like me and you know what, they' ; re okay. That' ; s an engineer, that' ; s a medical doctor and that' ; s a lawyer," ; you know? " ; This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it' ; s not so bad." ; So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn' ; t start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can' ; t remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I' ; m here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, " ; Oh, that' ; s the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff," ; but there' ; s so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let' ; s say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I' ; ve worked, I' ; ve had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, " ; Get that thing out of my hospital." ; So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she' ; s permanently disabled, because she didn' ; t receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn' ; t make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they' ; re no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn' ; t know how to deal with this. I didn' ; t know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I' ; d tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop--help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you' ; re talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn' ; t want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I' ; ve never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that' ; s on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that' ; s been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there' ; s a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they' ; re wondering, you know, " ; Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?" ; Um, you know, and, " ; Can she have her name change? Can she get women' ; s clothing? Can be isolated so she' ; s protected away from the general population?" ; All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state' ; s laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year' ; s. So, she was like, " ; No, no, no, no." ; (both laugh) So, of course I' ; ve moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, " ; You know, I' ; m an--I' ; m an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?" ; So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, " ; What can I do to come?" ; (laughs) You know? " ; What can I do when I get out here?" ; (laughs) " ; Where can I go?" ; He' ; s like, " ; Don' ; t worry, we' ; ll put you to work." ; So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, " ; Hey, it' ; s along the lines," ; because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn' ; t too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn' ; t worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don' ; t know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we' ; re remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn' ; t want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I' ; m sure it' ; s at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there' ; s less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that' ; s an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I' ; m a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that' ; s something that people don' ; t see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I' ; ve got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It' ; s usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it' ; s so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it' ; s more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the " ; intersectionality of marginalizations." ; So, you know, that' ; s why that particular day is so important to me, even though it' ; s a somber day. And I' ; m glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I' ; m hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that' ; s what the grant is called, " ; Fight the Hate." ; (laughs) So, you know, it' ; s an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I' ; m actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I' ; m also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I' ; m also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I' ; m, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I' ; m privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don' ; t have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we' ; ve done, there' ; s still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It' ; s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you' ; ve learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn' ; t be able to get their rights. That' ; s what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn' ; t get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they' ; re trying to pick up these supposedly " ; men" ; that dress as " ; women," ; which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it' ; s because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn' ; t make sense. And believe it or not, there' ; s still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I' ; m with another woman, I consider--I' ; m sexually attracted to other women. I' ; m romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There' ; s a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I' ; m not a lesbian because I' ; m a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they' ; re out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there' ; s still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we' ; ve actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I' ; ve looked into is--and I hope I' ; m not premature in saying this. I' ; ve been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I' ; m doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don' ; t think it' ; ll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I' ; m on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there' ; s more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that' ; s my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that' ; s where me, that' ; s my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that' ; s--that' ; s my life--that' ; s my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I' ; m a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it' ; s happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, " ; Hey, we' ; ve got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you." ; Friedman: That' ; s awful. Pronovost: So, they' ; re going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it' ; s so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it' ; s ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They' ; re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don' ; t have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people' ; s HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state' ; s forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA' ; s a national law, It' ; s not a state law (laughs). They shouldn' ; t be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the " ; Don' ; t Say Gay Bill" ; in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida' ; s bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we' ; re going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say " ; You' ; re gay." ; There' ; s another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that' ; s very similar to Texas' ; s bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, " ; Oh, it' ; s become a ' ; popular thing.' ; " ; It' ; s not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that' ; s why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months' ; time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they' ; re--the thing that I' ; m looking at is I' ; m hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that' ; s my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that' ; s more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we' ; ll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don' ; t think it' ; s that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there' ; s certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what' ; s right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there' ; s even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You' ; re looking at very, um, I don' ; t like to use this because I don' ; t like to use somebody' ; s name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don' ; t like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let' ; s take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, " ; Trumping somebody" ; is overcoming is somebody. So that' ; s what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don' ; t like people like me. You know, I' ; ve had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they' ; re having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That' ; s the only thing that they can' ; t change because that' ; s a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, " ; Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max." ; And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that' ; s not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren' ; t, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That' ; s the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there' ; s a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it' ; s mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, " ; granola-ish," ; if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It' ; s very similar. The fight' ; s the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they' ; ve raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag' ; s never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I' ; m hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you' ; ve already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I' ; ve learned so much it' ; s hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I' ; ve had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world' ; s largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- " ; Where where' ; s the donuts and coffee?" ; (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, " ; Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?" ; When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man' ; s field and being a woman trying to make it in a man' ; s field. And, and so I don' ; t--[connection froze]--People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that' ; s what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that' ; s one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can' ; t go out there. I can mention about it, but I can' ; t go out there and say, " ; You know, we need more protections for trans women of color." ; I can say that, but, you know, I don' ; t experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I' ; m not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that' ; s the main thing I' ; ve learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn' ; t just about any one person, it' ; s about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we' ; ve covered so much. (both laugh). I don' ; t know. I don' ; t think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It' ; s a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we' ; ve done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I' ; m just happy to be here. Like I said, that that' ; s my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I' ; m hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you' ; ve been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You' ; re very welcome. And it' ; s my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it' ; s our pleasure (both laugh). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml
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Pronovost, Leea. Interview April 8, 2022
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Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer.
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SC027-18
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LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ rights
Transgender people -- Civil rights
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2022-04-08
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video
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Leea Pronovost
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Julia Friedman
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San Diego (Calif.)
Springfield (Mass.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Leea Pronovost
Activists and activism
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History Department internship
LGBTQIA+ experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Madison Teater
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Theresa Rios
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Las Embajadores de Escondido
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5.4 2022-04-07 Oral history of Theresa Rios, April 7, 2022 SC027-17 00:34:29 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Escondido (Calif.) Hispanic Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Las Embajadores de Escondido Theresa Rios Madison Teater m4a RiosTheresa_MadisonTeater-2022-04-06.m4a 1:|24(4)|43(1)|52(14)|59(1)|66(7)|72(14)|86(14)|107(4)|122(11)|141(8)|159(6)|174(7)|193(3)|205(3)|219(12)|235(1)|249(11)|256(6)|271(5)|289(13)|315(15)|326(1)|337(12)|345(15)|352(7)|367(2)|383(1)|406(3)|433(13)|440(10)|456(13)|472(3)|491(7)|510(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1889cecb528454849ec8fbed1d12c9ea.mp3 Other audio English 68 The Introduction of Theresa Rios / Becoming a librarian Teater: < ; laughs> ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry. Teater: It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know < ; laugh> ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. < ; laughter> ; , it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That's fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said “Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Theresa Rios talks about moving from Arizona to California and how she came to be a librarian in the city of Escondido. Clifton, Arizona ; Escondido ; La Jolla ; librarian ; Palomar College ; Spanish ; Translator Becoming a librarian ; Spanish programs ; Theresa Rios in the Hispanico newspaper ; Translating for the public library 601 The Embajadores Program Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. < ; laughs> ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: < ; laugh> ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” < ; laugh> ; . I mean, I don't mean to it it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons < ; affirmative> ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. < ; affirmative> ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along at the library, and all my life. Theresa Rios talks about starting the Emajadores program, which gave Spanish speakers accessible resources in the library such as tours of the grounds, children's story times, and other elements for women, children, and the elderly. early reading programs ; El Tapatilla ; Embajadores program ; library ; literacy program dual-language learning ; Embajadores Program ; Library learning programs ; Spanish speaker ; Starting reading literacy programs at the library 1196 How to get Involved Teater: < ; laugh> ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. < ; affirmative> ; Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. < ; affirmative> ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and < ; affirmative> ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I have to-- < ; affirmative> ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- < ; affirmative> ; And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved. Theresa rios discusses how Escondido Public Library and other libaries can support non-English speakers and become more accessible and inclusive of people of different backgrounds and speak different languages. classes ; library ; Mexico City ; Spanish speakers ; support Accessibility in Libraries ; Escondido Public Library ; How libraries can be more inclusive to non-English speakers 1659 Connection with children as a librarian Teater: So you're still involved with children's programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That's Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or < ; laugh> ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. < ; affirmative> ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. < ; laugh> ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That's so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. < ; laugh> ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting, that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Theresa Rios talks about how being a children's librarian has effected her and how accomodating her supervisor was for her responsibilites that interfered with work. family ; husband ; librarian ; Mr. Humphrey ; nephew Appreciation as a librarian ; Appreciative employee ; family bonds ; legacy as a librarian Oral History Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. MJ Teater: All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I' ; m interviewing narrator Theresa Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here with me today. Theresa Rios: You' ; re very welcome. Teater: < ; laughs> ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I' ; m going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That' ; s so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I' ; m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program -- a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn' ; t know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let' ; s do this. Let' ; s tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there' ; s a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I' ; m sorry. Teater: It' ; s okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There' ; s a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, " ; The Red Shoes" ; and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you' ; d have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know < ; laugh> ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It' ; s from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there' ; s my boss over here. He' ; s not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there' ; s a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. < ; laughter> ; , it' ; s bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That' ; s fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I' ; ve been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said " ; Theresa! How are you? I haven' ; t seen you in," ; you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I' ; m just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That' ; s, that' ; s great. That' ; s so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children' ; s mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. < ; laughs> ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that' ; s in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught ' ; em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There' ; s a lot of paperwork that have here that I I' ; ve been going through, but you know, it' ; s been so long. It' ; s been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that' ; s okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child' ; s life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn' ; t. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I' ; m not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would' ; ve had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don' ; t know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: < ; laugh> ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, " ; Oh, no, we gotta get this--" ; < ; laugh> ; . I mean, I don' ; t mean to it it' ; s part of growing up it' ; s in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you' ; d have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can' ; t, it' ; s gone right now, but I' ; ll have to get those names if you need ' ; em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don' ; t-- at the time, I don' ; t know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don' ; t wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons < ; affirmative> ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they' ; re the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. < ; affirmative> ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they' ; re young of what' ; s going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn' ; t. And the ones that didn' ; t of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn' ; t want, whenever somebody treated any of ' ; em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it' ; s not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I' ; m still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they' ; ll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they' ; re wrong, I' ; ll tell them if they' ; re hurting, I' ; ll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that' ; s good too. So we get along and that' ; s how I get along at the library, and all my life. Teater: That' ; s Fantastic Rios: I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you? Teater: < ; laugh> ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you' ; re, you' ; re answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. < ; affirmative> ; Although I' ; m fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I' ; m not that good at it. And I I' ; m very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that' ; s married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. < ; affirmative> ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they' ; re having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn' ; t find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can' ; t think of it right now. I mean, it' ; s just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I' ; ve never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and < ; affirmative> ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she' ; s whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can' ; t anymore, I have to-- < ; affirmative> ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn' ; t walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he' ; s on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it' ; s a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can' ; t-- < ; affirmative> ; And, and that' ; s the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I' ; m very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite ' ; em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I' ; m still involved. Teater: So you' ; re still involved with children' ; s programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can' ; t commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they' ; re having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That' ; s Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I' ; m on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I' ; m just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I' ; m Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or < ; laugh> ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. < ; affirmative> ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. < ; laugh> ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn' ; t stay. He would, he wouldn' ; t stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn' ; t, you know, I' ; ve taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don' ; t you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That' ; s so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. < ; laugh> ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can' ; t attend a meeting, that I, or something that I' ; m involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I' ; m saying it' ; s family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It' ; s a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he' ; s my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what' ; s good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can' ; t do it, I can' ; t do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he' ; s a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that' ; s good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I' ; ve did or I' ; ll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I' ; m gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You' ; re so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Teater: Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today. Rios: You' ; re so welcome. Teater: Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day. Rios: You too goodly. Teater: All right. Bye. Bye. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Rios, Theresa. Interview April 7, 2022
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Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning.
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SC027-17
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Latine Americans
Libraries -- Literacy
Public libraries
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2022-04-07
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audio
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Theresa Rios
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Madison Teater
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Escondido (Calif.)
Arizona
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Theresa Rios
Community history
History Department internship
Latine experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Faye A. Jonason
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Leslee K. Roberts
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5.4 Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022. SC027-23 0:38:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Community oral histories CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm United States. Marine Corps Poway (Calif.) Women marines Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans -- United States Telephone operators Leslee K. Roberts Faye A. Jonason mp4 RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.mp4 1:|16(2)|32(7)|45(3)|64(2)|86(17)|113(4)|144(2)|174(4)|195(17)|225(13)|257(15)|284(3)|310(18)|335(4)|374(2)|406(7)|436(16)|459(15)|493(8)|511(16)|545(5)|594(12)|616(5)|639(6)|682(5)|719(11)|736(4)|753(13)|808(4)|852(2)|898(2)|932(5)|953(11)|989(11)|1019(4)|1050(9)|1089(10)|1156(10)|1167(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/73ed728127e92b4e01be2617427312f6.mp4 Other video English 0 Entering the Marine Corps/ Boot camp training Leslee Roberts discusses her decision to join the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. She recounts growing up in Cleveland, OH and how she had originally joined the Sisters of Charity, but that her independent personality made her a difficult fit to become a nun. Her brother who had ambitions to join the Marine Corps later introduced her to a recruiter and she enlisted. Leslee also discusses her boot camp training at Parris Island and the strict grooming rules that were expected of women Marines. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Marine corps ; Nuns ; Parris Island (S.C.) ; Sisters of Charity ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Vietnam War ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 349 Assignment at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses being assigned to Camp Pendleton in 1966 or 1967. She was around twenty-four years old. She worked in the Marine Corps Exchange and trained other Marines due to her previous work experience. It was during this period in which she met her husband. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 510 Working as a switchboard operator Leslee Roberts recounts her work as a switchboard operator in the Marines. She began this work prior to joining the Marines when she worked at the Salvation Army’s hospital. She briefly explains the technology behind the switchboard. She describes the most enjoyable part of the work was interacting with other people and learning about their day-to-day lives. Leslee also describes the Marine Corps uniforms that were worn during the summertime and wintertime. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marine Corps uniforms ; Military uniforms ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Switchboard operator ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 746 Women Marine barracks at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses living at the Women Marine barracks when she was assigned to Camp Pendleton. She describes the experience as unpleasant and lived there for less than a year before moving off base. She explains that the Woman Marine barracks were “squad based” and that Marines had to maintain their quarters to strict regulations. Leslee also briefly describes the social life in the barracks and how rank and rules affected daily life for the Marines. Barracks ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military ; Women Marine barracks 0 1042 Marriage Leslee Roberts describes her marriage to her husband who she met while assigned to Camp Pendleton. Her husband was a Gunnery Sergeant. They moved to Oceanside, CA after getting married and lived in Oceanside for five years before moving to Poway, CA. She explains that she continued to work for the Marine Corps Exchange after getting married. She also recounts the various military regulations that she and her husband had to jump through in order to get married. She explains that due to her low rank and her gender, she had to ask permission to marry her husband from her Commanding Officer. She also explains that she received an honorable discharge once she became pregnant. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marriage ; Military regulations ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Poway (Calif.) ; Pregnancy ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1318 Living in San Diego County Leslee Roberts describes her current life in San Diego County. She has lived in the same house in Poway, CA since 1972. She explains how Poway was a new community and that she enjoyed watching it grow. She recalls participating in events, greeting new citizens in Poway, and watching the construction of various developments and schools. Community center ; Developming community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools 0 1545 Reflecting on the Marine Corps Leslee Roberts reflects on the Marine Corps from a gender lens. She explains that while women were seen as second-class citizens during the Vietnam War, that men and women both enlist for the same reasons. She expresses her how she is glad to see women being granted the same honor and privileges as men in the military in the twenty-first century. Gender ; Marine Corps ; Sexism ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1676 The community of Poway, CA Leslee Roberts continues to reflects on the community of Poway, CA. She recalls the history of Poway’s schools that eventually led to the formation of Poway Unified School District. She also discusses the fight to create a community center and a community pool. Leslee also discusses the complicated relationship between North County and the City of San Diego, such as North County citizens having to abide by San Diego tax laws or relying on San Diego to fix their streets. Community center ; Developing community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; Poway Unified School District ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools ; Taxes 0 Oral history An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the
 ; Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason
 ; and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s
 ; Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral
 ; History Archives. So, thank you for being here.
 ; 
 ; Leslee Roberts: My pleasure.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell
 ; your last name, please.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes,
 ; 
 ; ma’am.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and
 ; how you came to the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a
 ; brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger
 ; than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally
 ; my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not
 ; work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming.
 ; So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like
 ; 
 ; I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while,
 ; and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the
 ; Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked
 ; at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay?
 ; So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me
 ; that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I
 ; said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever
 ; decision I made,
 ; 
 ; within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he
 ; even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too
 ; late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I went to bootcamp!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Where?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What did they train you to do?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of
 ; boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity.
 ; (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality,
 ; take me
 ; 
 ; (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to
 ; have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same.
 ; You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, you’re training―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a
 ; lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching,
 ; learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short.
 ; 
 ; It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar.
 ; But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Hm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you
 ; know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it
 ; up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my
 ; hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (shrugs) So―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I
 ; had choices. I didn’t
 ; 
 ; necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San
 ; Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was
 ; a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You said you were in your twenties.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I was around twenty-four.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They
 ; were eighteen, nineteen—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and
 ; they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person
 ; accou–accountant and Commissary accountant.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people
 ; to work in the Exchange, okay?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And how long did you do that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: For the three years that I was in.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during
 ; that time.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I met my husband.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He also worked
 ; 
 ; in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own
 ; store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and
 ; relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he
 ; finally come over and introduced himself.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist
 ; anymore, does it?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What was that like?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also
 ; did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army (unintelligible). And
 ; um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when
 ; I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office.
 ; 
 ; We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if
 ; someone called in sick, or whatever, so―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How would I go about doing that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a
 ; switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone
 ; within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the
 ; board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug
 ; them into each other.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it
 ; to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah. Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You just plugged them in!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what
 ; 
 ; were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and
 ; while you were doing other―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I always was in uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Which was?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —what kind of uniform?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In
 ; the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Outside, always.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like
 ; to tell us about?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you
 ; could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?”
 ; 
 ; and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience
 ; when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it
 ; was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Their families.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Can you be more specific?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they
 ; do for that?
 ; 
 ; (clears her throat)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military
 ; shopped there ; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we
 ; would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you
 ; were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Um―
 ; 
 ; (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a
 ; question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I didn’t hear the question.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to
 ; ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Where did she live?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of
 ; tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did.
 ; 
 ; I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff
 ; Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and
 ; she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So,
 ; she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How many―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: A great big―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: ―bunks?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you
 ; were judged—you were put in the squad bay according to your rank.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Exactly.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Absolutely.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Regulation.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Junk on the bunk?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And
 ; so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank
 ; was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the
 ; barracks? Did you―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have
 ; you do—picking
 ; 
 ; up around the barracks, and―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Field day?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and
 ; whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like
 ; it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do
 ; you call them, um―
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (inaudible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of
 ; course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent.
 ; 
 ; I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So,
 ; you lived in the–in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: About two years. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And then what did―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide).
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to
 ; share with us?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: As far as the military is concerned?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more
 ; conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release
 ; a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a
 ; 
 ; difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about
 ; it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been,
 ; to help win that war.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You–you appreciated it more?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Much more.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, I did.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And where did you go?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband
 ; who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here,
 ; okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when
 ; we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And how long did you stay there?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there
 ; 
 ; at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in
 ; San Diego. He retired.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Why did you like San Diego?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He liked San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh,
 ; yes. Yes. I liked it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to
 ; work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you
 ; wanted to get married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I–I—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided
 ; 
 ; to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you
 ; could do that.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (chuckles) Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Both you and your husband.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had
 ; to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do.
 ; Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my
 ; responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) And your husband had to do the same thing, right?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for
 ; himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a
 ; bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did,
 ; 
 ; for me. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: He asked permission for you.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Right. We went together.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that
 ; were required?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of
 ; our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if
 ; we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: I see.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Huh.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that’s how I left.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his
 ; house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, until I became―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Pregnant.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. (
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We lived there for two children.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San
 ; Diego area.
 ; 
 ; Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put
 ; in twenty-two years of his life. He continued to have privileges—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Ah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —military privileges.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what did he do?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for
 ; thirty years.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Wonderful!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve
 ; lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Wow! You must like it there.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number
 ; one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area.
 ; So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something
 ; growing) into this huge community.
 ; 
 ; And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think
 ; of any place else.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at
 ; Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: What do you like about the community?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the
 ; community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active
 ; but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So—
 ; I like to swim and do water aerobics, and—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I
 ; said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments,
 ; and so I got to watch
 ; 
 ; it grow.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development.
 ; Was there—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —an event or something?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: No. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was
 ; fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow,
 ; watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools.
 ; I know—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your
 ; house wh—at that time? Was that something that—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Pretty much.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside
 ; of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: That was on my own.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting. Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you
 ; would like to see asked?
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but
 ; seems to be talking about entering something into a document)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Just the fact that she left her close-knit family and friends, and
 ; her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to
 ; enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to
 ; make that monumental decision.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The fire.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Amen! (laughs also)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me?
 ; 
 ; Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the
 ; military has grown since you’ve been here.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we
 ; 
 ; were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said
 ; previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay?
 ; And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men
 ; would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was—it’s
 ; different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They
 ; want the—They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak
 ; for all of them, but yes. I think they—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country
 ; offers their military. So, yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs)
 ; 
 ; Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s
 ; something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think both men
 ; and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them
 ; something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted.
 ; Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs)
 ; whatever their purpose—for their country ; for themselves ; for their family. So,
 ; times have changed.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You’re very welcome.
 ; 
 ; (the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what
 ; Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —San Diego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San
 ; 
 ; Diego.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the
 ; education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: It did!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: just a community—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: It did.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway
 ; U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: That right there tells—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Is key.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, but—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: No, it wasn’t.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: But, did–did they have a school?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns
 ; from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They had one—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: — and one middle school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —one middle school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And they, and they were—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified
 ; school district,—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t considered—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: but they were—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But they—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And then we had (inaudible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves,
 ; okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was
 ; very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only
 ; one main—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay. I’m st—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road
 ; through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of
 ; widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears
 ; her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see
 ; what historical data is there, because based on more—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Now—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: See,
 ; 
 ; now Rancho Bernardo was—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —that is really—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in
 ; (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Seniors.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was more of a senior place.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It was a community planned—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And um, yes.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho
 ; Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the
 ; only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t
 ; been asked to write your history, so I get it.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the
 ; community center,—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, yeah.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: You know? All the things—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what happened with the community center?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it
 ; wa–I guess—it
 ; 
 ; wasn’t—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: The city—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve
 ; been going there for twenty years.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my
 ; mouth real quick—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter
 ; and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They
 ; were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something
 ; besides Poway which we kind of fought for.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the
 ; people wanted at the time.
 ; 
 ; So, these ladies were part of the movement.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh they were—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. Well—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the
 ; thing that–that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in
 ; San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway
 ; is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in
 ; that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we—whereas just down the road
 ; about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa,
 ; 
 ; some of the other ones.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It’s very—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the
 ; San Diego whatever, whatever.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Well, we do too.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my
 ; head around—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Everything.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San
 ; Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High,
 ; went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids
 ; started off at Me–Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever
 ; it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built
 ; 
 ; the high school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Do you?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Carmel Mountain.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we
 ; didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or,
 ; whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students.
 ; Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and
 ; it’s gotten huger, so—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. So—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I
 ; live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected
 ; like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding).
 ; 
 ; Norwood: She is right
 ; 
 ; beneath us.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of
 ; San Diego to fix our streets, to—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: To do whatever.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: To–to do whatever we need—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Right.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, they do take that!
 ; 
 ; Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons
 ; why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, no. I—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more
 ; input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the
 ; school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to
 ; participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it.
 ; Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles
 ; down the road, um, they were totally into, uh,
 ; 
 ; San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady
 ; has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I
 ; knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader”
 ; (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of
 ; recruiting more people and she—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I had a mouth!
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She singlehandedly—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: It’s a good thing!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She–but she s—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She’s still humble about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water
 ; aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody!
 ; 
 ; (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels
 ; welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics.
 ; We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there
 ; is background traffic noise)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I know.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And that’s the summer.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies
 ; but goodies.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In the summertime.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But, she’s—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Look at Doreen,
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And see, that’s where
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Doreen.
 ; 
 ; (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk ; unintelligible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be
 ; organized and get people together?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, but—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for?
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (nodding) Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Still! Still!
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself,
 ; 
 ; my project, my books. She—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t
 ; say no to you.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible).
 ; 
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 ; 
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 ; 
 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 
 ; 
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 ; 
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 ; 
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development.
Identifier
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SC027-23
Subject
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Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Korean War, 1950-1953
Switchboard operators
United States. Marine Corps
Veterans -- United States
Women marines
Date
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2022-11-23
Format
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video
Creator
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Leslee K. Roberts
Contributor
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Faye A. Jonason
Maryellen Cortellini
Terry Norwood
Coverage
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Poway (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Leslee K. Roberts
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Veteran experience
Women's experience
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oral Histories
Description
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Seth Stanley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jennie Ruiz
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.xml
Interview Keyword
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5.4 2023-04-07 Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-029 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Student success Jennie Ruiz Seth Stanley mp4 RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.mp4 1:|40(5)|52(10)|66(9)|77(15)|94(11)|105(8)|118(2)|135(1)|148(7)|166(14)|186(3)|212(2)|223(3)|235(3)|255(3)|273(1)|282(3)|292(4)|304(7)|342(5)|353(8)|368(2)|378(4)|388(3)|399(13)|410(1)|457(10)|468(7)|486(7)|510(1)|519(10)|529(9)|539(3)|549(4)|595(6)|606(1)|621(8)|633(13)|677(3)|690(1)|699(12)|713(1)|723(1)|736(10)|753(7)|764(3)|775(1)|794(6)|817(2)|837(9)|847(10)|860(10)|874(5)|885(2)|895(3)|937(11)|957(9)|968(3)|982(2)|1003(2)|1015(12)|1026(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/514cb50273b20f4b16cea6c5712830f4.mp4 Other video English 1 Introductions Introductions from Seth Stanley and Jennie Ruiz 34 Biographical/Educational Background Ruiz describes her personal and educational background. 85 Work During Education. Ruiz recalls working as a student and how it lead to her career in enabling student success in higher education. 187 Discovering Counseling Career Path Ruiz speaks about her beginnings of counseling as a career path and what led her to California State University San Marcos. 281 Experiences working for Student Success Ruiz recalls experiences supporting student success on campus, work as a peer mentor, the special-ness of the CSUSM student body, her work in the Dean of Students Office. CSUSM ; Student Success ; Student Success Coaching 555 Leadership Style and Experience Ruiz speaks about her leadership roles and leadership style in a university setting. CSUSM ; Faculty ; Leadership ; Staff ; Student Success Coaching 710 Network and Relationships on CSUSM Campus Ruiz details her networking skill and speaks about the relationships she's built at CSUSM CSUSM ; Faculty ; Networking ; relations ; Student Affairs 934 Relationships with Students and Building Rapport Ruiz speaks about her relationships with students on campus, building relationships with students and understanding their needs. CSUSM ; Faculty ; O-Team ; Orientation ; Student Relations ; Students ; Team-building 1162 Initial Experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz speaks to her initial experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center, how she interacted with the CCC in her role overseeing student orientation, and what the center's physical space was initially like. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership 1260 Cross-Cultural Center's Change Over Time Ruiz recalls how the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time, how the space where the CCC was located in relation to other parts of Student Life and Leadership, and the center's move to the Commons Building, work on a collaborative mural, and then the move to the University Student Union building. C3 ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership ; Tukwut Courtyard 1791 Friendship With Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Ruiz describes her friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu, former Associate Director of Multicultural Programs at CSUSM. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; Sara Sheikh ; Sara Sheikh-Arvizu 2080 Favorite Memories From Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz recalls working at the front desk of the Cross-Cultural Center, and remembers a student with significant mental health challenges, who found refuge and friendship at the CCC. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; NSYCH ; Students 2344 How the Cross-Cultural Center Helped Her Develop as a Professional Ruiz speaks to the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on her as a professional, her privilege, and centering voices in programming. Ruiz recalls a workshop with the campus Jewish community. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; intentionality ; Jennie Ruiz ; Privilege 2652 Memories from the Peer Mentoring Program Ruiz recalls some of her experiences with the creation of the Peer Mentoring Program and recalls an overnight retreat. CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; New Students ; Peer Mentoring Program ; Retreats ; Sara Sheikh ; Team Building 2956 Thoughts on the Significance of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz speaks to the importance of having identity-focused university spaces like the Black Student Center, the Latin
/x Center, etc, which champion underrepresented communities and assist with student success. ACE Scholars ; Community ; CSUSM ; Diversity ; EOP ; Equal Opportunity Program ; Identity-Specific Spaces ; Underrepresented 3354 Cross-Cultural Center and the Purpose of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz expands on why identity-specific spaces are necessary and what groups benefit from them. She also goes on to speak about the role the Cross-Cultural Center plays with the expansion of identity-specific spaces. APIDA ; C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Identity Specific Spaces ; Jennie Ruiz ; Kamalayan Alliance ; Pacific Islanders Moving image Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos. Seth Stanley [Interviewer]: This is Seth Stanley. Today I' ; m interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming. Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]: Hi, Seth < ; laughs> ; . SS: To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced your work in higher education? JR: Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go? SS: As long as you want. JR: Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-- SS: Go for it. JR: Background. Um, so I' ; m born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at a session I led about my like, professional journey. But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I' ; m like, thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ' ; cause I' ; m putting the ads up, so I' ; m gonna apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student orientation, ' ; cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um, the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared towards first-year students and student success in academia]. So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean' ; s list one semester. There, grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean' ; s list and I got an invitation to apply for leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center. And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn' ; t quite know what I was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree, and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went to USD [University of San Diego] for my master' ; s in counseling with a specialization in college student development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant. And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in 2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then [named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I' ; ve just held a variety of positions and here I am. < ; laugh> ; . SS: [Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and specifically supporting student success. JR: Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn' ; t want that to be repeated for somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um, and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don' ; t work hard other places but that there' ; s something about our students here. Um, there' ; s a lot of gratitude, there' ; s a lot of understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know, working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There' ; s nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he' ; s been able to be here since when, since he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he' ; s like, " ; You go to college!" ; And I' ; m like, no, I don' ; t go to col-- I' ; m not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he associates college with me. And that' ; s just, he' ; s grown up in that environment. And then my mom also worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here. SS: And, now you' ; re working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us through your experiences as that at the job? JR: In the five weeks I' ; ve been in the position, < ; laugh> ; , um, it' ; s-- it' ; s been, it' ; s been really great. It' ; s actually brought me back to I' ; d say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it' ; s been fun in the short time I' ; ve been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we' ; re gonna be engaging students who are coming in this next year. We' ; re kind of in this two-- two paths right now. It' ; s the finish this semester, but then let' ; s think big and creatively for the incoming class who' ; re gonna be here in fall [20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they' ; re doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in. So, I don' ; t know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um, ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of capture the rest of the students, so don' ; t really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about college. Um, so it' ; s going well. I' ; m really enjoying it. I' ; m able to be creative and think through things and plan, which is something I love to do. SS: So, I know you' ; ve only worked there for, you' ; ve only been working in this position for five weeks, but, um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations and team members? JR: Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ' ; cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven years. So I' ; ve been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it' ; s been interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it' ; s funny, my first day I brought donuts and I said to them, ' ; cause this team right now doesn' ; t have a permanent space. They' ; re literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent location, they can kind of feel that stability. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven' ; t started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I just ask for your grace. But I' ; m as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it' ; s just about the human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don' ; t connect that piece and know what really matters to these people just in life, you' ; re kind of missing the mark. So my goal was, and I told people ' ; cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships. And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there' ; s opportunities. But I, I' ; d say I' ; m very, I' ; m all about personal connections and relationships and being collaborative. But I' ; m also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we can' ; t bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide, make sure people are in the loop. ' ; Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things with humor. But Yeah. SS: Well, sounds like you' ; re the right person for the job. < ; laughter> ; Um, I' ; d like to ask, how have you leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success? JR: Oh gosh. SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: You know, it' ; s-- so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to speak and I' ; m like, okay, because part of me is like, " ; You want me to talk? Oh, that' ; s fine!" ; So I talked a lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation: it' ; s such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life. Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I' ; m asking people to do things when I don' ; t have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this relationship with people so you can-- ' ; cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It' ; s just, " ; I need you to do this. Can you help with this?" ; And so, and I fast forward now, there' ; s one of the colleagues I' ; ve worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I' ; m meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it' ; s just, we laugh now that I' ; m like, talk about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we' ; re gonna be implementing into the program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first coming on board. And so again, it' ; s like " ; It' ; s so fun to work with you again!" ; But, all that to say, it' ; s been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I' ; ve come into this job, the, the reactions I' ; ve gotten from people saying, " ; I' ; m so glad it' ; s you and I can' ; t wait to work with you in this role." ; And that' ; s been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I' ; ve been able to, you know, there' ; s credibility. I' ; m able to connect the coaches with people that they haven' ; t connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I' ; m like, " ; Let me just ask this person directly, like what the answer is." ; They' ; re like, " ; You can just do that?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I just can chat whoever, or text whoever and vice versa." ; So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships is literally how I' ; ve gotten everything done here on this campus. It' ; s, it' ; s been so, so important. So I don' ; t think I answered the question? SS: No, I love that. I love that. I' ; m so glad to see you [indistinguishable]. JR: It' ; s been, it' ; s very sweet. I' ; m like, " ; Thank you!" ; It is very, because especially it' ; s people that I' ; ve worked with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, " ; You don' ; t have to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there' ; s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you' ; re feeling so we can just deal with it." ; And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you' ; re saying things. And I' ; m like, just, " ; I' ; ve been here long enough. Like, just tell me." ; SS: [Indistinguishable] So I' ; d like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and understanding their unique, needs? JR: Yeah. Um, so I' ; ve had the benefit, I mean, since I' ; ve started here to work directly with students. So in my orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I-- it' ; s so hard to describe something that I feel like just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor, but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it' ; s, you know, I' ; m able to kind of feel that out. I feel like I' ; m very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can-- I can tell-- if I know someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there' ; s something going on or what' ; s happening, and I' ; ll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference. You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old-- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ' ; cause I was overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within their life. Whether it' ; s, they' ; ve had very something very difficult happen to them and they' ; re navigating it and how they' ; re acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I' ; m really good about student[s] coming in and being like, " ; What is going on? Like, what' ; s, what' ; s happening?" ; And also good about being like, what we' ; re doing here isn' ; t working. So how do we, let' ; s figure it out. So through the years I' ; ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor joked with me, she' ; s like, " ; I' ; ve never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same sentence, the student, thanks you." ; < ; laugh> ; It' ; s just, it' ; s treating somebody as a human being. ' ; Cause, even if you' ; re making a decision that' ; s difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ' ; Cause I still have a connection with the students who are on orientation team. ' ; Cause my previous position, I was still in the same office and I would, they' ; d be laying down on orientation day and I' ; d just be like, " ; What are you doing?" ; They' ; re like, " ; Oh, sorry Jennie!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Come on," ; < ; laugh> ; " ; Get your, get yourself together. Don' ; t be laying down on the job." ; So. SS: All right. Um, finally we' ; re gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions. JR: I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay. SS: I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you' ; re just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability. JR: Conduit of stability. Oh, that' ; s deep. Okay. SS: Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? JR: Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I imagine you' ; re interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin, SS: Um, I' ; m not sure, she' ; s not one I' ; m interviewing. JR: Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he' ; s like a president of a university now. It' ; s amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started-- because I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in, um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we' ; d go up to C3. So that' ; s how, that' ; s what I remember it as. We' ; d go up to, we' ; d go to C, we' ; d be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that' ; s kind of my initial like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted. SS: This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change? JR: Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year-- and I think the plans had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don' ; t know if you' ; re familiar or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That' ; s where Student Life and Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a community building location for the Center. So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle-- Um and then around the corner through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don' ; t remember the nuances, but I would imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that " ; What does this look like?" ; conversation. So, um, how it' ; s evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember correctly, I don' ; t know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life and Leadership. It' ; s called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I' ; m remembering this correctly. So what ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons 206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that [Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space when it was up there was-- I mean, it was massive. It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don' ; t know what the timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a, program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it' ; s still up in the C3 here in the Student Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn' ; t in as much conversation about because at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role. So I wasn' ; t gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it' ; s just, it' ; s just beautiful. And it' ; s with the balcony. And we' ; ve held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd' ; s [Lai, Director of the CCC] great. He' ; s always willing to host people. Um, so it' ; s done a lot of trainings in there and stuff like that. So, that' ; s kind of how the physical space has evolved. It' ; s gone a long way from this sized office. SS: Thank you for that. JR: Yeah. SS: So many permutations. I love the red couches. JR: The red couches. I mean, that' ; s the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread, the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there. SS: Yeah. [Indistinguishable] JR: Oh, I' ; m sure you did. SS: Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the Cross-Cultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that position? JR: < ; laughs> ; SS: How' ; d that Happen? JR: I don' ; t know. You know, I think, when you' ; re in a-- when you' ; re leading a department right? And somebody leaves, you' ; re kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving while we' ; re doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren' ; t part of other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I' ; m like, that' ; s funny. That' ; s the population I' ; m working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we' ; re really working with the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of-- ' ; Cause I had already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know, " ; Can you just help with this for a little bit?" ; And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency? Um, so it was a fun- SS: Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn' ; t find it. How Long? JR: It was about a semest- I' ; d say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of months in the spring semester of-- oh gosh, I don' ; t know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12, around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ' ; cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So. SS: Perfect. I don' ; t wanna get too sidetracked but, I' ; d like, if you' ; re willing, I' ; d like you to tell me about your friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she? JR: God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships? SS: I' ; m not sure. < ; laughs> ; JR: Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She' ; s like, how was your interview? I' ; m like, it' ; s at three. So I' ; ll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we' ; d all have a chance to meet all the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just peaceful human being. Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she' ; s one of those people in my life, and I tell her all the time, and it' ; s now her and her wife because they' ; re, they' ; re like cup filling people like you, you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I' ; m like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um, not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years after she' ; d gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I said, you are the perfect and only person I would' ; ve wanted to interact with on this day. Because she' ; s so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But-- and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it' ; s just like, there' ; s no laugh like it. Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you' ; re the only person in the room. She has nothing else to distract her. It' ; s a very intentional, like, you' ; re hearing it a, a pattern like purposeful and intentional. She' ; s just a good, good person. So, I remember, ' ; cause I tend to talk a lot and, um, and this isn' ; t fair ' ; cause you' ; re asking me to talk, so there' ; s no, there' ; s no judgment here. But I remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process. So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I' ; ve always taken that with me. But, we' ; ve, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I' ; ve had the privilege to, I was there the day that, they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just one of those people in your life that I' ; m grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and it, I, it' ; s one of those things where I' ; m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because there' ; s days where I' ; m like, what do I bring to you? < ; laughs> ; Because she' ; s just so fantastic. But she would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you' ; re nuts. So she' ; s special. SS: I love that. That' ; s incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That' ; s amazing. I know we' ; re in the little sidetrack here, but- JR: No, it' ; s fine. it' ; s all connected. SS: It' ; s all oral history, its all about people, so. JR: It Is. SS: Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite, just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center? JR: Hmm. < ; laugh> ; . SS: This is a little stumped [one]. JR: No, it' ; s not stumped. I just, there' ; s certain things that it' ; s like, I just immediately remember and I' ; m like, it doesn' ; t have to be super deep, right? SS: Mm-hmm. JR: I remember there was a period of time, I don' ; t know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were ti-- I don' ; t know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love NSYNC. It' ; s a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora. And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, " ; If I am here at my shift, you are hearing NSYNC and boy bands." ; And it just became a thing. They' ; re like, " ; Oh, Jennie' ; s here." ; And I would just play that music. And, it was, that' ; s the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny. They were like, " ; Oh God, Jenny' ; s on shift." ; But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there' ; s a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won' ; t say his name for obvious reasons you' ; ll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him ' ; cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-- SS: Camo? JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the sweetest, kindest person. And I, that' ; s he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would come in there all the time and that' ; s where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him. And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer gratitude. And when I-- when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ' ; cause I was in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within relation to [C3], but it' ; s a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, " ; Thank you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life." ; and I was just like, God, what a gift you just gave me. So, um, I don' ; t know if I would' ; ve had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the case for a lot of students, so. SS: Wow. JR: [Mm-hmm] < ; laugh> ; . SS: Sorry about that. JR: I know it' ; s tough and yeah. Yeah. SS: [indistinguishable] It' ; s remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. < ; laugh> ; JR: NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ' ; cause again, he just exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm. SS: Well on a lighter note! Uh. JR: < ; laugh> ; , I know, sorry take these down. SS: No, no, no. It' ; s perfect. It' ; s perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional? JR: Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the space and I' ; m at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn' ; t want my own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think < ; laughs> ; makes a difference. That I' ; m aware of how my identity impacts those around me. But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some activities-- Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don' ; t remember what the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we' ; re not, we' ; re not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in. Um, ' ; cause why wouldn' ; t have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we' ; re doing it the right way, let' ; s do that. So that was a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and then just--Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with students I probably normally wouldn' ; t have just because they weren' ; t involved in Orientation Team. Like this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women' ; s Center, the Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers ; our staffs would get together on a frequent basis. And there' ; s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I' ; m still in, contact with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna get things done. And it' ; s like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience. SS: Yeah. That' ; s great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this doesn' ; t have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ' ; cause I know you worked a pretty short time over there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a part of necessarily? JR: Hmm. Geez, just so many SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It' ; s one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don' ; t have the resources to continue it, you can only do so much. And so-- but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, " ; You work with new students, can we just do this connection?" ; And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of, we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers, you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was really the, the pieces of how-- why we' ; re serving this particular population because there is an equity gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and stuff like that. Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don' ; t think it was a while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was we had them all come together. So we' ; ve had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had, there' ; s a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can' ; t spend the money on this. And we' ; re like, " ; What are we supposed to do?" ; So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like, internal team-building exercises, but we' ; re like, " ; What the hell are we gonna do?" ; But we figured it out. What' ; s funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff. SS: < ; laughs> ; . JR: So I' ; ve known him forever and it' ; s really cool. And then funny enough we, well it' ; s not funny but, we had to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that' ; s when our car died. So we went back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we' ; re meeting with this loan officer, she' ; s like, where do you work? I told her, she' ; s like, " ; I knew you look familiar!" ; And my husband' ; s always like, " ; I swear to God, she knows people everywhere." ; And she said, " ; I was part of the peer mentoring program" ; and I remembered her ' ; cause she was assigned to, I would say was our best mentor ' ; cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, " ; Can you talk? Can you touch base with your students?" ; But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program and just being like, " ; I remember you!" ; And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren' ; t able to keep it going. So. SS: Yeah. That' ; s cool that you saw your, your one mentor--[indistinguishable] JR: It was so funny that, " ; I know you look familiar!" ; When I said I worked at campus, it was funny. SS: Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources. Yeah, it' ; s definitely challenging. JR: It is. Especially when it' ; s such meaningful work like that. I mean, it' ; s literally to support, but now I' ; m in a space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting. SS: Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students? JR: Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that' ; s such a large umbrella, right? And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there' ; s an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it' ; s about equity, right? And it' ; s interesting having conversations with people who don' ; t quite get it and there' ; s people who make comments sometimes it' ; s like, " ; What about a space for us?" ; And I' ; m like, do you understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their life. That' ; s why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those programs exist because they' ; re-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right? First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from, they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can imagine a student coming here and I' ; ve never really experienced it, but being like, " ; I don' ; t see myself here." ; They' ; re not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They' ; re not gonna feel like going to class because why would they care? I mean, there' ; s some students who inherently they just have this intrinsic motivation and they' ; ll go to school and it' ; s fine. But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That' ; ll just make it that much more just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they' ; re placed in inaccessible areas that people don' ; t necessarily know about. If you do it well and put ' ; em in high traffic areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an issue. So. SS: Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the Cross-Cultural Center that you would' ; ve approached differently if given the chance? JR: Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama < ; laughs> ; , and I wish I would' ; ve come in and I don' ; t know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now about things and haven' ; t gone through when I' ; ve gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in and be able to really help the students to be very-- To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don' ; t know. I think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you' ; re at in life. And I got lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can' ; t think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there' ; s still days where I' ; m like, " ; You wanted me to be in there?" ; But, it worked out. But I think those are the things I can, I can think of. SS: That' ; s good. JR: Yeah. SS: More experience. JR: More experience. It' ; s all, it' ; s all experience. Yes. SS: Well, as we' ; re wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um-- JR: Asian Pacific Islander. SS: Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders. JR: < ; laughs> ; Yes. SS: I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white student center? What' ; s your response to that? JR: < ; laughs> ; That' ; s my response. < ; laughs> ; Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking spaces where they see others like them. SS: [Mm-hmm.] JR: Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it' ; s always going to be met with some dissonance because there' ; s gonna always be people who just don' ; t get it. But the people who are the ones traditionally, and I know there' ; s people who may identify as the same within that center and say, I don' ; t think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development, you get to the point where you' ; re comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to understand that everyone else is in a different space and that' ; s okay. And that some students may be okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to feel safe, then I think that' ; s been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I think the people who ask those questions about, why don' ; t we have this? Why don' ; t we have this? And it' ; s like, I don' ; t-- there' ; s gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don' ; t have an answer for it. They don' ; t have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, " ; Why do you think we need that space?" ; And they don' ; t have any, you know, there' ; s no research to back up the answers that they' ; re hoping to get. It' ; s just, they' ; re there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don' ; t wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I' ; m far from being an expert on how to implement that. But if you don' ; t have the resources and don' ; t have the institutional support, you' ; re only gonna be, you' ; re set up to fail. SS: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It' ; s worth it. JR: Yep. Mm-hmm. SS: To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? JR: I would imagine, I' ; ll say Floyd specifically ' ; cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he' ; s gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the Cross-Cultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing, I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings and that sort of thing. I would imagine there' ; s been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space that, that population tends to spend time. I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ' ; cause they' ; re Kamalayan Alliance, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some people had issues with it. It' ; s kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it' ; s like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected. So, I would imagine-- I know there' ; s some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces and identity centers. And I' ; m sure there' ; s gonna be conversation about what, what is C3' ; s role in that? Um, I don' ; t know the answer I' ; m not privy to those conversations, but I' ; m sure the questions have come up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It' ; s just, I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot of conversations about what is the vision and mission and kind of, where' ; s it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I' ; m sure there' ; s also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus? But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He' ; s [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center] good. He' ; s good. SS: Yea, he is good. JR: He is good. SR: Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and-- JR: This was Fun. < ; laughs> ; . I don' ; t know what I expected, But yeah. SS: Anyway, I' ; m gonna end the recording. JR: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
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Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
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SC027-029
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
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2023-04-07
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video
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Jennie Ruiz
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Moving image
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Jennie Ruiz
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Seth Stanley
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Sheehan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lilian Serrano
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.xml
Interview Keyword
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Alianza Comunitaria
National Latino Research Center
Universidad Popular
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Oral History of Lilian Serrano, April 6, 2022 SC027-16 1:08:13 SC027 CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos Community organization Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County Alianza Comunitaria National Latino Research Center Universidad Popular Lilian Serrano Robert Sheehan Video SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.mp4 1:|23(2)|52(6)|66(5)|83(6)|100(11)|126(9)|138(4)|154(12)|174(1)|195(1)|210(1)|221(8)|234(12)|247(13)|266(4)|285(3)|296(7)|306(6)|322(11)|334(9)|350(4)|370(2)|382(5)|402(7)|438(2)|454(5)|467(11)|479(13)|503(5)|516(12)|530(4)|543(9)|555(9)|569(5)|581(1)|598(7)|611(7)|623(10)|637(1)|648(12)|665(1)|679(6)|691(11)|705(2)|717(8)|731(2)|744(3)|761(12)|774(1)|786(5)|799(5)|816(7)|827(13)|840(9)|857(7)|869(7)|883(1)|897(12)|909(10)|927(6)|943(9)|954(11)|967(16)|979(11)|996(9)|1008(5)|1021(11)|1056(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b6bf87a1a952cb442b90ba8ffd86ee22.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/Living in Tijuana Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It's a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: I'd like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn't live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They're Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there's actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they're paying for them. And that's what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there's three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That's very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn't until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent’s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I've been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don't think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they're like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don't live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Chula Vista ; Oxnard ; Tijuana ; Transnational Families 550 Transition from middle school in Tijuana to high school in Oxnard Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don't have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. < ; laugh> ; I didn't have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that's where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. < ; laugh> ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don't have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn't have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn't have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn't really, I don't think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn't understand the language < ; laugh> ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ‘Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don't remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. ESL ; high school ; Oxnard 879 Experience with bilingual program in high school Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn't have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn't have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I'm pretty sure the school didn't have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that's endemic in American schools? They don't have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I'm not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you're new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that's what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn't have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don't get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. bilingual education ; ESL ; high school ; immigrants ; Spanish 1266 Being in a multi-status family while studying at CSUSM Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. < ; laugh> ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn't have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It's still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. college ; immigration status ; San Marcos ; undocumented 1692 Student Activism and the National Latino Research Center Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ‘Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we're making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn't true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn't know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn't know how Congress works. I didn't know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn’t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. college ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; MEChA ; National Latino Research Center ; San Marcos ; student activism 2125 From student activist to community organizer Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you've helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It's all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that's the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don't know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they're able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there's an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I've been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they're called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven't seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there's a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there's a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we're able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we're able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Alianza Comunitaria ; Border Patrol ; DUI checkpoint ; immigrant rights ; immigrants ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County ; social media ; Universidad Popular 2819 Advocating for Immigrant Rights Sheehan: That's really, really incredible. You said you've seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent < ; laugh> ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don't want the departments coming after me, like, you're saying we're violating the law. That's not true. Yes. But you did at one point. < ; laugh> ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I've been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they're not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there's really no navigation when you're being denied services, because you don't have health insurance. And you're not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don't qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we're very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Alianza Comunitaria ; health care ; immigrants ; immigration status ; legislation ; North County ; Universidad Popular 3294 SB54 California Values Act and Immigration Enforcement Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that's going into effect in May? That's a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. < ; laugh> ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That's the law that I was hinting earlier < ; laugh> ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they’re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They're not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn't get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver's licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it's illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there's still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn't collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. California Sanctuary Law ; California Values Act ; DUI checkpoints ; Escondido ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County 3612 Growing Latino Population, Redistricting in San Diego County, and Conclusion Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you'd like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. < ; laugh> ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we've been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don't know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn't there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you're Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it's changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don't know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you're undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it's almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it's Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They're your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they're your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that's what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don't know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn't make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people's memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. “And how is Trump gonna use this against me?”, right. “How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?” And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Cal State San Marcos ; Escondido ; immigrants ; Latino population ; North County ; redistricting ; San Marcos ; U.S. Census Oral History Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It' ; s a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: I' ; d like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn' ; t live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They' ; re Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there' ; s actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there' ; s nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they' ; re paying for them. And that' ; s what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there' ; s three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That' ; s very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn' ; t until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent' ; s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I' ; ve been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don' ; t think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they' ; re like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don' ; t live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Sheehan: Wow. So what did your parents do for living, Serrano: When now, or < ; laugh> ; ? Sheehan: Well, both when back then and now what do they do? Serrano: So, at the, uh, when, you know, back when I was born my parents had their own business. So, you know, that goes back to the ability to have a visa and actually be able to afford medical services. Also, I mean, giving birth back then, according to what my parents share with me, wasn' ; t as expensive as it is now, right. Affording a medical services wasn' ; t as expense. So my parents were definitely what some folks will consider maybe lower middle class, ' ; cause they had their own small business. A family run business. And so that' ; s what they did for a living. As things start getting more complicated and you know, big corporations start coming in and it was just harder for them to keep up with their small business. That is actually a big part. That and the reality that hit them, that they had three girls aging, almost approaching college time and looking at college tuitions, not being as affordable. That the reality of them having to move the family to the United States to seek better opportunities. That' ; s when they made that tough decision. So, they shut down their business and they moved to, like I said, to Oxnard, California. And Oxnard is a primarily agricultural town. So when they first arrived, my parents went from being business owners to them being farm workers. So my dad actually worked out in the tomato fields. It wasn' ; t for a long time, but he nonetheless, the continue of the years, he continued to do work that indirectly was related to the agricultural field. From packing plants to transportation centers, and warehouse and everything that is involved within the production of fresh produce. And so did my mom. Actually, my mom until not a long time ago worked at packing vegetables. Just different variety of vegetables--tomatoes, avocados, broccoli. I think the list goes on. But my parents were for all my high school and most of my college years, they were considered farm workers. Nowadays as they are a little older--and they just recently moved to San Diego County--my dad is not working right now because of his health condition. And my mom, is uh, she' ; s working at a manufacturing job. Labor work. Sheehan: And what was their small business in Mexico? What did they do? Serrano: Yeah, they had a little store, a little market. It' ; s called abarrotes in Mexico. So, they sell a little bit of everything. You know, fresh produce, meats. Just like any corner convenient little market store that you can think of. That that' ; s what my parents did. That business was actually originally opened by my great-grandparents when they first arrived to Tijuana and it was passed down generations until it was my parents who, once again, had to make the tough decision of shutting it down. Sheehan: So that really must have been a difficult decision to make, to leave all that behind. Serrano: It definitely was. I know that they invested many years of their lives. I mean, my mom grew up in that business. By the time my mom was born that my great grandparents already had the business. So, you know, my mom grew up there. I spent most the first, at least half of my life right there. Anything from having to help clean up the business to sometimes as I was getting older, having to take care of the registry and, you know, like just handling cash, fixing, restocking, everything, right? Like we, we have that in common with my mom where we both, we all grew up in that store. But yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think, you know, like most parents, they did what they had to do. Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don' ; t have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. < ; laugh> ; I didn' ; t have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that' ; s where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. < ; laugh> ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don' ; t have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn' ; t have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn' ; t have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn' ; t really, I don' ; t think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn' ; t understand the language < ; laugh> ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ' ; Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don' ; t remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn' ; t have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn' ; t have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I' ; m pretty sure the school didn' ; t have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that' ; s endemic in American schools? They don' ; t have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I' ; m not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you' ; re new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that' ; s what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn' ; t have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don' ; t get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. Sheehan: So in your opinion, what would be the way that schools could go about helping that education process? Is there a way that someone who has more advanced skills like yourself in math would be able to apply those skills successfully in a high school setting? Serrano: Well, I think for that, it would require for us to really invest in our English learner programs. We know that, unfortunately, our English learner programs tend to be underfunded. Right. They just don' ; t have the resources to really address the need. The need is big. We still have a lot of kids who are U.S. citizens who were born and attend, you know, all the K through 12 in the United States, but that never really reclassify, never really gained that proficiency in English in part, because they don' ; t, um, you know, when they get home, they primarily speak Spanish. And they attend schools who don' ; t have the resources to provide that more one on one that like individual support that a lot of students require. So I really think to address that question, like really the problem is that our schools are underserved. We don' ; t have enough resources. We don' ; t have enough teachers. We don' ; t pay our teachers enough. Like we don' ; t have enough specialized teachers. I still remember, and that was not my experience. But in my last year of high school, the amount of ESL students that we had in my high school was so big that we didn' ; t have enough ESL teachers. So we ended up opening one class with a teacher who had, I think studied two years of Spanish < ; laugh> ; or something like that. So this is somebody that is not proficient in Spanish but ended up having to take an ESL class just because we didn' ; t have enough teachers. And I can imagine, right. That was probably also a tough call for our administrators. But unfortunately, when we don' ; t have, we don' ; t invest in bilingual teachers, when we don' ; t invest in our bilingual programs, that is the result, right. We have students who are not being challenged in the classroom, like I felt I wasn' ; t. But also, students who actually need a lot of support just to catch up with their classmates and are not receiving that, and therefore are staying behind. So we are really underserving our students by doing that, right. Our classroom should be an environment where you should be able to learn basic skills, but also to be pushed and challenged. And we are, at least in my experience in high school, at an ESL program, that was not the case. Sheehan: And do you remember the percentage of kids who graduated from your graduating class? Serrano: < ; laugh> ; No. I don' ; t remember. That was a long time ago. Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. < ; laugh> ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn' ; t have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It' ; s still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. Sheehan: Very interesting. So what did you do for financial support then? Was it just kind of grants and student loans and things like that? Serrano: Yep. < ; laugh> ; So it was grants. It was, um, like I mentioned through camp, I was able to access some scholarships. And then I was able to, or ended up having to, sign up for student loans. Yeah. Sheehan: Mm-hmm, < ; affirmative> ; very much the American experience right now. < ; laugh> ; So you' ; re one of three sisters. You had said your older sister had dropped out of college. Did your younger sister attend Cal State San Marcos or any other college? Serrano: So actually, yes, my older sister that dropping from Cal State San Marcos, just to later on, actually, she was part of the first class of Mira Costa students who graduated with a bachelor' ; s. She has a Bachelor' ; s of Science from Mira Costa College. And that was recent. And my younger sister, she is currently a student at UC Irvine. Sheehan: Wow. So you were the middle daughter and ended up with the first degree. Was that the first degree in your family? Serrano: Yes. Yes, that was the first degree in my family. And yes, I know. I ended up being the middle child as an example, I guess. < ; laugh> ; . Sheehan: And what was your degree in? Serrano: Mine? Sheehan: Yes. Serrano: I ended up doing my bachelor' ; s in human development with my emphasis in health services. Sheehan: And then that led into your current position, or how did you end up where you are now? Serrano: I ended up doing a double major, sorry. I should have--I did a double major in Human Development and Spanish. So I wanted to make sure that I didn' ; t lose my proficiency in the language, but also, I had always really liked literature and, you know, Spanish is my first language, so I felt a lot more comfortable in that language. So I ended up studying both. When I first started at Cal State San Marcos, I knew I had to find my home. ' ; Cause my family was far, far away. Especially because when my parents decided to move the family and overstay their visas, they became undocumented. Right. So even though if they had, you know like their whole lives, they had been moving back and forward and, like I shared, my great grandparents, my grandparents, they were all now, actually at the time I think they were already U.S. citizens. By the time we moved. If not, they were very close to becoming U.S. citizens. My parents only had visas. So when they moved and overstayed, they became undocumented. So something that wasn' ; t thinking of when I picked the college is that because we are in the border now, there was an imaginary line dividing me and my parents. The way that our immigration system defines the border is a hundred miles from the port of entry. So for those of us who live in San Diego County, especially those of us who live in North County, we' ; re very familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints set on the 15 freeway and on the 5, which, you know, are around the areas of Temecula and San Clemente. So my parents, when I first started college, my freshman year, they were still undocumented. So they couldn' ; t risk, and I myself couldn' ; t ask them to risk, their ability to be with my younger sister who at the time was I think, a first grader, by crossing that checkpoint. Because every time an undocumented immigrant drives through that checkpoint, there' ; s a possibility of being arrested and deported. So I, I was not--I knew about the checkpoint, but I didn' ; t understand all the complications that come with it until I had already submitted everything for Cal State San Marcos. I had my orientation day and then I had to have that tough conversation that my parents couldn' ; t drop me off for orientation. They did end up dropping me off for my first day at the dorms. But after that, I was basically on my own. If I wanted to see my parents, I would have to either drive or take the train and me being me, the U.S. citizen crossing that checkpoint versus my parents who were undocumented. So, I forgot what I was saying. < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; That' ; s all right. Serrano: [unclear]. Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ' ; Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we' ; re making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It' ; s not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn' ; t true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn' ; t know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn' ; t know how Congress works. I didn' ; t know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn' ; t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. They were not instituting the protest ' ; cause we were the ones really wanting to do everything, right. But they were there to make sure we were doing it in a safe way. So when I kind of started at Cal State San Marcos, find out we had a MEChA chapter, I knew since like orientation, I' ; m joining this organization ' ; cause they' ; re doing what I wanna be doing. So, it is actually through that, that I met one of my mentors, Arcela Nuñez[-Alvarez] who at the time was the director of the National Latino Research Center and the advisor for MEChA, um, that I actually started getting more involved here locally in North County. So a lot my years as a student at Cal State San Marcos, I really spent getting to know North County and the local immigrant rights movement through MEChA. And also, you know, we also got into some trouble at Cal State San Marcos as we were the biggest organization, student organization that represent Latino and Latinx students. And you know, at the time we were look[ing at a] tuition increase. We still--and until this day--Cal State San Marcos still doesn' ; t have a Chicano Studies department. But back then we had even less Chicano professors. So there was a lot of things that I was seeing in my daily life that it just didn' ; t feel right. Didn' ; t feel that that was something, or an environment in which folks like myself could thrive. And my goal was always to try to, you know, create a world where I wanna live in and create a world where I want other generations--future generations--to live in. So I got involved and I was, you know, I struggled a little bit because I was taking classes and then I was doing all this community work and I never saw the bridge. Right. I never saw like the connection for me. So like, no, this is what I do because that' ; s just what feels right to me. And I' ; m going to class because one day I' ; m gonna have a career, but I still didn' ; t know what, < ; laugh> ; like most college students. So as my college year start--you know, I started approaching the end of my college career, I started seeing that overlap. Right. And I found that overlap initially, actually ended up getting hired as a student assistant. And then later on, I came right after graduation, came in as staff at the National Latino Research Center and in there--which is a department at Cal State San Marcos--I learned a lot about research. But also, I learned how research can be used to really bring attention to issues like that I was seeing. So that' ; s kind of where I started seeing like, Okay, there' ; s an overlap. I can actually do something with this education that I' ; m getting to improve and continue to also use the skills that I learned as an organizer versus an activist. As an organizer in the community. And I can merge both. And I can merge them in a way in which I create the opportunities that I wanna see. Right. And I kind of was able to after graduation and after like a few years of experience working at the NLRC and now, you know, as Universidad Popular, that' ; s what I' ; m doing. I' ; m still continuing to create the spaces and the opportunities that I really wish I had when I was in that position in my life. Right. So for young folks, but also for like our, um, just our immigrant communities in general. Especially in North County, which, once I moved here, I fell in love with this region and also came to find out that this region is severely underserved. If I struggled in Oxnard--like this community is severely underserved. So, I decided that [I' ; d] dedicate my professional career to build resources here in North County. And it was all, you know, it was all as I was trying to merge my worlds into one. < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you' ; ve helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It' ; s all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that' ; s the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don' ; t know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they' ; re able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there' ; s an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I' ; ve been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they' ; re called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven' ; t seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there' ; s a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there' ; s a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we' ; re able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we' ; re able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Sheehan: That' ; s incredible. So there' ; s this whole support system for immigrants in North County that you' ; ve created. Is that something that you' ; ve done in, what was the timeframe on that? Serrano: So when I first kind of joined a group, it was kind of baby. It was barely community members. A lot of them college students, a lot of them Cal State San Marcos students who were going to these checkpoints to start documenting what was happening. Right. And they will just, because they were already there, they will just start texting their family and friends who will then forward that text message to their families and friends. So it was like a tree. And this started back in 2009. I joined the group in 2010, so months after it was first created. And we knew that we needed to reach people faster and also in a more effective way. So, I was able to, as a student, just volunteer my time. And, you know, also as a young person that grew up with technology, trying to figure out how do we use technology to do that, to do exactly that. So at the time--and this is 2009--Facebook had only been around for a few years, and it was barely kind of getting momentum. So we started using Facebook as an organizing tool. We were probably one of the first groups that started using Facebook. You know, later we also used Instagram as an organizing platform to do that. And then also we knew that a lot of community members that we were targeting, like the folks that needed to get this information, were not gonna be able to jump on a Facebook page because at the time they probably didn' ; t have the technology or didn' ; t know how to use it. So we knew that we needed to do something with direct text message. We didn' ; t have resources. This is all volunteer work. We didn' ; t have grants. We didn' ; t have the ability to get donations really. Like, I mean, we were getting donations, but we' ; re not a 501c3, right. There' ; s no real exchange that could happen. So somebody literally just said, " ; I have an old Blackberry that you can have if you want it" ; . And then somebody was kind enough to say, " ; And I can add a new line to my family plan" ; . And then the rest of us just had to say, well, we will pitch in to pay the monthly payment. So we all started literally with an really old Blackberry, um, < ; laugh> ; that we will type the text message and send out and start kind of creating a list. Once we hit the 500 numbers, like, you know, 500 unique phone numbers that we were now texting every weekend, sometimes multiple times in the weekend, it became really hard because a Blackberry is not designed < ; laugh> ; to send more than 500 text message at the same time. It will take us three hours. Literally, one of us will be in the phone for three hours sending text message. And then we decided, okay, that' ; s three hours is ridiculous. We can' ; t be volunteering more than that. So we kind of stop adding new numbers, but the demand, right. Amount of people that every time we send a text message, they will text back, " ; Hey, can you add my cousin? Hey, can you add my neighbor?" ; Or we will be out -- because we were putting this out of pocket and I was a student, a first-generation college student that was signing up for, or getting student loans just to pay rent. I couldn' ; t afford really an extra bill. And, you know, that was a reality for most of the folks that were doing this. Not all of us were college students, but, you know, we' ; re all struggling. We started asking our Facebook friends on our page, " ; Hey, would you all be willing to pitch in to pay the bill?" ; Right. And yes, that response from the community immediately was yes. " ; Where can I meet you to get you five bucks, ten bucks, twenty?" ; So then we started attending community events to collect a donation, but of course, as we are at the community events, people are like, " ; Oh, you' ; re with Alianza Comunitaria. Can I be added to your list?" ; And we had to say, no, we couldn' ; t. So we figured out that we needed an online system, and we did everything car washes, literally hanging out at the swap meet, just collecting donations, asking folks who were receiving our text message, who will send them a text, right. Like, " ; Hey, can you help us? Anything will help." ; And we were able to in 2013 transition to an online system that we have continued to have now for a few years. It continued to be all community funded. Now, as you know, some of us found more stability. We were paid out of pocket to continue this system. And we were able to bring in more and more numbers. So our numbers continue to grow. Every time I look at our list, it' ; s bigger. The last time I looked, it was a little over 8,000, but I don' ; t really know our exact number because people just sign up automatically on it. And our Facebook and Instagram, like I said, we get followers every weekend. Every time there is an alert that needs to go out, we get them and here and there, we will hear from community members who tell us, " ; I' ; ve been following for 10 years" ; . And the amount of trust they have on this network is to the point where we still, we get a lot of messages primarily through our social media, where folks now are sharing with us a lot of very personal information with the hope that we are gonna be able to connect them with resources. Right. So many times, I am the one connecting folks with organizations who are able to provide legal services and/or directing them in the right way to where they can find information about medical or health services. There' ; s a lot of questions around schools for their kids. So it becomes--even though we try not to promote it, ' ; cause it' ; s still volunteer run, so it' ; s capacity. It' ; s an issue. We are part of the North County community, specifically the immigrant community. So they look at us for all sorts of information. So right now, during COVID we had folks who were looking at us for resources. What can we do to help feed our families or to access the vaccine? Like a lot of folks are, um, we had questions around, Will this affect my immigration status? Or I' ; m undocumented. Can I access these resources? So we continue to do that work. And of course, our notification system continues to be up and running and just growing, even though we are trying not to grow it as much. Sheehan: That' ; s really, really incredible. You said you' ; ve seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent < ; laugh> ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don' ; t want the departments coming after me, like, you' ; re saying we' ; re violating the law. That' ; s not true. Yes. But you did at one point. < ; laugh> ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I' ; ve been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they' ; re not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there' ; s really no navigation when you' ; re being denied services, because you don' ; t have health insurance. And you' ; re not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don' ; t qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we' ; re very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Sheehan: And so what are some of the methods that you use to advocate? I know you, before you had mentioned when you were in high school and college, you had organized and been a part of protests. Is that the major way that you help advocate or -- Serrano: No, that' ; s probably the most visible one for the outside world. And definitely we continue to use public protests as a way of getting attention to the issues. But there' ; s many other ways. We ensure that my role has become being the teacher, right. Like the person that is helping community members learn how to tell their stories, because even though we know the experiences exist in the community, right. Like, I witness them sometimes, you know, like folks call me, like, I can' ; t, I need a test or even in my own family, right. My mother-in-law was in a situation a long time ago where she wasn' ; t feeling right, and she needed to get tested. And we couldn' ; t get an appointment. I, myself, I couldn' ; t sign her up anywhere because she didn' ; t have health insurance because she was undocumented. So I' ; m seeing this, I' ; m living through it, but I know that it' ; s hard for our community members to tell that story in a way that other folks are able to understand it and follow along. So I literally had taken the time to first teach folks how the laws are changed, right. Then we also take the time to see which laws need to be changed. Partner with those who have a lot more experience than myself in policy making and, you know, try to come together to create bills that we think might be able to solve the problem. And then have community members learn how to do the advocacy in the legislative process. Which means teaching them how to tell their own personal stories, accompany them to provide that testimony. What there is in a private meeting with legislators at their offices or public hearings. Like anything from public meetings, sorry, public hearings in Sacramento with our state legislators to city councils, right. A lot of times there is things city councils can be doing to improve the lives of folks, but most of us don' ; t know about it or don' ; t know how to communicate with them. I also have helped folks set up meetings or help folks set up meetings. And, at times, especially when some of these meetings are public, media has an interest. So lately that has been one of the skills I' ; ve been developing on how do we better work with media to ensure that the stories of our community members are out there and folks who might not be in our communities are aware of. Because deep in my heart, I know that people, there' ; s a lot of people that cares who just don' ; t know, they just don' ; t know what' ; s happening. So part of the advocacy is really to ensure that everybody knows what' ; s happening and how things can be fixed in a way that it will not take away from U.S. citizens. Because that' ; s not the point. The point is not to take anything away from a U.S. citizen. The point is to ensure that all of us who contribute to our community get access to the same resources. And that is the part of the work that I have been doing in terms of advocacy. And sometimes we don' ; t achieve that in a public protest, but sometimes you do, < ; laugh> ; right. So use the different tools in our toolkit for advocates. Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that' ; s going into effect in May? That' ; s a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. < ; laugh> ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That' ; s the law that I was hinting earlier < ; laugh> ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they' ; re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They' ; re not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn' ; t get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver' ; s licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don' ; t know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it' ; s illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there' ; s still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn' ; t collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you' ; d like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. < ; laugh> ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we' ; ve been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don' ; t know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn' ; t there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you' ; re Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it' ; s changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don' ; t know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you' ; re undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it' ; s almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it' ; s Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They' ; re your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they' ; re your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that' ; s what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don' ; t know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn' ; t make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people' ; s memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. " ; And how is Trump gonna use this against me?" ; , right. " ; How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?" ; And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Sheehan: And so that 45% Latino/Latina is probably on the very low side. Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: So that' ; s an incredible growth in North County. Serrano: Yes. Yes, cities like Escondido are now majority Latino with 52%. Cities like Vista and San Marcos are also very close to the 50% mark. Once again, if we were to account for the under count, it' ; s probably safe to say that they' ; re about half Latino population cities. Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . That is an incredible rate. Serrano: Yeah, it is. Sheehan: All right. And did you have anything else that you would like to share? Serrano: No, I think that' ; s all for me. Sheehan: All right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. Serrano: Yeah, no. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Serrano, Lilian. Interview April 6, 2022
Description
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Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County.
Identifier
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SC027-16
Subject
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California State University San Marcos
Community organization
Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County
Date
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2022-04-06
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video
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Oxnard (Calif.)
San Diego County (Calif.)
Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Lilian Serrano
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Lilian Serrano
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Robert Sheehan
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Latine experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Alexa Clausen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Daniel Flores Rios
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml
Interview Keyword
This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record.
Hanford, CA;Central Valley, CA;farm workers;high school drop out to work as landscape;Ocean Beach, CA;La Jolla, CA;Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper;Mexican immigrant parents;Jennie Rios labored although an amputee;Mexican Revolution about 1915-16;Mesa Community College;Mid-way Adult Education;Kodalith film;San Diego City College photography degree;William (Bill) Dendle, photography department;Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college;Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising;Times-Advocate newspaper.
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017 SC003-01 00:29:54 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Agricultural laborers -- California ; Hanford (Calif.) ; Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.) ; La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.) ; Mexican Americans ; Photojournalists Hanford, CA ; Central Valley, CA ; farm workers ; high school drop out to work as landscape ; Ocean Beach, CA ; La Jolla, CA ; Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper ; Mexican immigrant parents ; Jennie Rios labored although an amputee ; Mexican Revolution about 1915-16 ; Mesa Community College ; Mid-way Adult Education ; Kodalith film ; San Diego City College photography degree ; William (Bill) Dendle, photography department ; Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college ; Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising ; Times-Advocate newspaper. Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen .wav RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30_access.wav 1:|14(13)|26(4)|61(14)|105(9)|117(5)|146(4)|176(12)|222(10)|254(7)|305(16)|329(11)|361(13)|394(2)|421(4)|438(8)|465(8)|490(5)|512(7)|528(8)|548(14)|593(2)|612(6)|633(18)|659(11)|694(9)|707(5)|754(16)|766(4)|799(7)|828(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6530a2ec4e46f4d8911ae22577aa5093.wav Other audio English Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer.
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 ; As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate. Dan Rios: My name is Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939. Alexa Clausen: We have put together some questions. Tell us a little about your childhood, you had told us about leaving the Fresno area. DR: I was born in the Central Valley. My family were all field workers. They picked all sorts of fruits, cotton, stuff like that. The weather was miserable . The winters were freezing cold, the summers were blistering hot, and I never liked the place. So I convinced my mother and father we should move out of there. And in 1953, we moved to San Diego. Settled in Ocean Beach for a little while. Eventually we bought property in Mission Valley, had a house built. Worked with a company in La Jolla doing landscaping, gardening at the age of 14. I quit school in the middle of 8th grade. Never went back there to finish junior high or never even went to high school. I worked in La Jolla for two years for a gardening and landscaping company. AC: Now when you said they came to San Diego, you had other family here? DR: Yes, I had two aunts that lived here. That brought us here. Also had a sister who moved here prior to our moving here. We rented place on the beach, Ocean Beach right on the beach. It's called The Ocean Village, we had a little cabin there. At that point it was my father, my mother, my sister, two brothers and myself. I believe a sister too. The other two sisters had already married and moved out. AC: What did they come to do? What did mom and dad come to do? DR: (laughs) Well they came because I bugged the-- AC: Said get me out of this-- (unintelligible, Clausen and Rios talking over each other) DR: I just hated Hanford. AC: Oh I’m sorry-- DR: I dreaded--I mean we were poor, we weren't dissident, we owned our home , our own car. But it was not a good life, it was a miserable life. And I told my mother once, I said, “I know we are going to be poor the rest of our lives, why do we have to be poor and miserable too.” (laughs) I just hounded her and convinced her that we had to move out of town. And we did in 1953. AC: Right, but they knew there would be work in San Diego? DR: Yes, my brother-in-law had gotten a job with landscaping company in La Jolla and he was pretty sure that both my father and I-- AC: There was room to have you join them. DR: Yes. Right. Yes. AC: Now you know, you’re were still very young here when you’re doing the landscaping. DR: Yes, I was fourteen years old. AC: That’s sure a long cry from getting to be a, you know, quite an well-established photographer, and Lucy (Berk, a local historian who met Dan when she worked as the librarian for Times Advocate) told me also an artist, a photographer as an artist-- DR: Yes. AC: So, let's fast forward your career a little bit here. So here you are, a kid, landscaping and thinking to yourself, well what? I want to buy a camera? What do I have to do? DR: (laughs). Oh, no, no, no. I took to gardening and landscaping like a termite to wood. I loved it. I read a lot of books on it. I was very good, I was excellent at it. I had a natural sense of design, I learned thousands of plant names and fertilizers and insecticides. At the age of 16—at the age of 14, I was working three days a week at the La Jolla Art Center. Three days a week. Three full days a week. And I figured after two years of doing that, that I could take over the contract and work only three days a week making as much money as I was working five days a week. So I talked to Dr. Malone who was the director, and asked him if I could take over the job at 16 years old. And he did not laugh me away as most people would have done. He talked to the Board and they agreed. So I worked three 8-hour days, and then the other two days of the week I worked other jobs. Eventually, I worked six days a week, and I was getting a lot of contracts, a lot of work at 16, 17 years old. So then I called my father to come and help me and my business and got him away from the landscaping company. We did that for about 15 years. AC: Did you have a business name? DR: Dan Rios Complete Garden Service and Landscaping. Had no license, no insurance. (laughs) AC: But you know that was not a big deal then. DR: No it wasn’t. AC: It was simply not a big deal. Most people didn't care, and-- DR: No. Nobody questioned me. I was never stopped by the city, by the police, or anybody. But I was 16 years old, did not have a driver's license. AC: Now that was bad, that was a problem. (laughs) DR: So I went to buy a '55 Chevrolet pickup, I had the financing and everything, but I had no driver's license. So the salesman ordered me to go to National City (California), get a driver's license. AC: Down to the DMV. DR: Yes and got it. I made really, really good money. I remember. between my father and I, say in 1957 - 58 (we were) making $20,000 a year. And I researched and I found out at the time high school teachers were making $5000 a year. AC: Oh yeah you could probably buy a little home for eighteen or seventeen thousand at the time. DR: We bought a piece of land in Mission Valley for $4000. Paid that off and then we had a house built. It was a 2,000 square foot house for $10,000. The payments were $72 a month. I told my mother, “You know in ten years that’s going to be nothing. That’s going to be a drop in the bucket.” AC: And it was true. DR: Yes. Oh yeah. She died living there. She died in 1980. We built the house in '58. AC: So did she work? Did she end up-- DR: No, no, she was--not any more. She did in Hanford. She had an amputated leg and even with that she went out in the fields and pick grapes and picked cotton. And did all kinds of field work. AC: Give me your mother's name. DR: Jennie. Jennie Rios. AC: And father's name? DR: Theodore. AC: Theodore. OK. And were they from that Northern California area? DR: No, no, no. They immigrated separately to the United States during the Mexican Revolution about 1915-16. AC: I’ll be darned. DR: I think my mother was six years old. I think my father was nine years old. AC: Yeah. They came as children. DR: They crossed at El Paso. And they worked themselves--my father worked as a water-boy on the railroad tracks coming to California. My mother's father worked for a construction company building a pipeline. I haven't really researched that. She said the pipe was as big as a diameter that a man sitting on a horse could ride into the pipe. It was that huge. Eventually, the contract ended in Hemet (California). But they came through the San Jacinto Mountains. She remembered the Indians there singing and chanting. AC: There’s a number of Reservations or one or two big ones there. DR: Yes, Saboba. AC: So well we are making our way to your camera, right? So we’ve got you owning your own company, you have your father involved in your business, and you’ve got a house. DR: And a brand-new car. AC: And you are working for the La Jolla Art-- DR: Center. AC: As one of your clients. DR: Then I expanded and I had clients. I was working seven days a week, 12 hours a day. No vacations, no holidays. But it was a lot of fun, there was a lot of money coming in. And for an uneducated kid-- AC: That becomes important. DR: Yes. AC: You could finally enjoy things-- DR: In fact I'll tell you how uneducated I was: I never understood English, I never understood Math. History and other stuff like that, I could understand. When I would do a contract—an estimate, I would do all round numbers, all whole numbers. AC: Okay. DR: At one point I could not subtract 1.99 from 2.00. I had no idea (Clausen and Rios talking over each other) how to move the figures-- AC: Well, you know you were a kid that needed to get money and wanted to leave poverty. DR: Yeah, it was field work and I hated the field work. It was miserable. So even when I had my little business going, I decided--I knew a year in advance what I would be doing. I had so many contracts lined up that it became boring. The work just became boring. So I decided in 1962 to go back to night school and get my high school education. Which I did. I did in three years. I went five nights a week plus Saturdays plus TV shows--TV classes. I think I needed 32 credits to graduate, and I think I graduated with 48 credits. The counselor urged me to be class president, I did not have time for that. So then she bothered me so much, eventually I acquiesced to be Salutatorian for the high school class. AC: Oh nice. DR: When I started, I was in the 30-35% percentile. When I graduated, I was 98 percentile. It just came so easy to me. AC: And boy, you sure did the right thing to get more education. DR: More? Some education. I never had it-- AC: Well, you missed out on your childhood in a way. DR: I never had a childhood. I never had a teenage life. When we were at home working, picking, we would never start school in September. It was November. Middle of November we started. And then holidays--then Thanksgiving came, you were off two weeks, then two or three weeks, Christmas came. And we’d (not) come back until the middle of January. And then we would leave school in May. I never started school and I never ended school. AC: I had gone to the Latino Film Festival—I go every year with my friend. I can’t sit through too many movies but we saw one (film) that was a--that followed some children and their education, still today, and how the parents do yank them out of school and they’ll go to El Centro or wherever and the kids are constantly in flux. They still—happens to them, they—and then, the teachers have to try and test them and place them and it still goes on. DR: Well that was me, that was our family. We had to survive, we had to put food on the table, clothes on our backs. AC: Yeah, yeah. DR: We owned our own home, we owned our own car. There was no bills there. AC: Well that was, that was more than a lot. DR: That’s a whole lot of story, because this house we’re living in now is part of my mother's wedding present. I can go into that if you want to later on. But I never wanted—and when I had my own little business, big family gatherings at the house, we had a nice house in San Diego. A lot of family gatherings and stuff like that. But I was bored with my job 'cause I would get up 5 o’clock in the morning. Six o’clock I was out the door and I wouldn’t get back until five or six o’clock. When I started Adult School, high school, I would get home at 5 o’clock, 5:30, take a shower, have a little snack, and go to school between 6 and 9. And then get home and study until 1-2 o’clock in the morning. I would do that for-- AC: Well see you had the desire, the drive-- DR: Yeah. Five, seven days. And then eventually I stopped working Saturday, used to go to Saturday school. So I graduated and then went to college and I was going to study Civil Engineering. Because it seemed to suit me. I was good in Math, I was good in Science, I was good in Chemistry. AC: Did you start at community college? DR: Yeah. Mesa College. AC: Good school. DR: Yeah. I was there a year and a half, and I took—I was taking pretty heavy classes. I went to take an easy class, a Health Ed. class. Taught by a short, stout, female teacher. No term paper, no mid-term, no quizzes, attendance is good, class participation. The only absolute requirement, concrete--you had to have a hobby at the age of 65 and over. She said, “None of my students going out working 30-40 years, retiring and become the wife or your spouse's pain in the ass,” running the house because she has been for 30-40 years. Chauffer, bookkeeper, cook, shopper, maintenance, raising the kids. She said, “My students will not be a burden to their spouses." AC: (laughs) That is so great. DR: (laughs) You will need a hobby. And I had to prove it. And it does not include rock climbing because at 60-70 years old you’re not going to be doing any rock climbing. So in San Diego, at this here store on University where I went to, they had their camera counter right there where you walked in the front door. I’d often stopped and marveled at all these devices. I had heard about 35-millimeter (cameras), had no idea what it was. I had seen this camera with all these numbers on it. And different colored numbers. I often wondered what it all meant. Because growing up in Hanford we had no money for either film or camera or anything else, there were just no--no extras. So I decided to take a adult (continuing education) class at Mid-way Adult High School in photography. I took it for one semester. Now in college I was carrying a 3.54 average. I got involved in photography, it just overwhelmed me. I could not get enough of it. I just started buying second-hand equipment. AC: I don't know if that Adult School is still there. It was there for years. DR: Probably not. At the time I was going out with a woman who I later married. She was taking an art class and I was taking photography on Wednesdays. I got so involved with photography I started buying used equipment, new equipment when I could afford it. I would buy 100-foot rolls of film and shoot that film in one week. I was just drawn into it. AC: Wow. DR: I was just mesmerized. I couldn't get enough of it, it was like an addict. And so I built a dark room in my mother's garage. At that point I had gotten married. Built the dark room in my mother's garage, I would go in at 4-5 o’clock in the morning, process film. Start printing and proofing and looking at my clock, I would have to be at school at 9 o'clock for a class, 10 o’clock at class-- AC: I tell young people and my son, go ahead and plan and take your classes but you don’t know what’s going to come your way. Like don’t get so, you know worry, worry, where’s the job, where’s my job going to be. I said “Stop!” It may come to you and I can’t wait to tell him about--’cause I see him tomorrow, but don’t wear yourself down with worry, you don’t know the twist and turns in your life. Look at that! DR: Well, my mother had a saying that most students go to college to study to be a potato and they come out a yam. (both laugh) So my grades plummeted. I would not go to school. I would try to bone up for a test. I would not show up for class. That last semester just was a disaster. Ended up getting I think a D average. 2.0 or 1.5, 2.0 average. Then I switched college, I decided, I told my wife "I think I want to do--” One of the people, while I switched colleges to study commercial photography, and I had the fortunate-- AC: You think? DR: I had the pleasure of two teachers, and I talk about it all the time. Civil Engineering is what I really wanted to do but this photography just, as I said, I was just addicted to it. So I enrolled in this college and had Mr. Bill Dendle’s class in photography at City College and Jack Stevens who also taught the upper grades. And I was so fortunate to have Mr. Dendle as a teacher. And he would just--like an addict, just feeding me my poison with the knowledge. Oh god, he was fantastic. My first semester there, I won the Sweepstakes Award and about 30% of the ribbons because we had a photo contest among the students. And the first day of class, about 35-40 people in the class, Mr. Dendle said, “I don't care ; sit on the floor, sit wherever you want. By the end of this week there's gonna be half of you and by the of the month just going to be half of (that). At the year there will be maybe five or seven of you left.” And there were only ten of us left that started. AC: Yeah. Yeah. So he knew you had to have the passion to survive. DR: He was, he was--He had a shelf, it must have been twenty feet long by eight feet high full of photo books. And I would go ask him a question, if I had a problem or had a question, he said, “You know that it is a very good question. It's in the books here, why don't you find out. Look for it and find out the answers.” AC: Interesting. DR: And he would do that to me a lot. AC: So he knew that if you would find it for yourself, it would have more value. DR: Oh yeah. AC: And to remembering and keeping-- DR: And, one day about noon, I’d finished my work in the darkroom and he came out and says, “Are you busy right now?” I said no. At this point I was twenty-nine, no twenty-six. I always felt old in class. Kids were 17-18-19 years old. AC: Yeah. Returning students feel-- DR: I'm twenty-three, twenty-four, I’m feeling ancient. So I never mingled with students, fellow students. So he came out to lunch and says, “What are you doing?” I say, “I just finished my dark room work.” He says, “Grab a camera and load it Kodalith film and go take a picture of the quad.” I’d never heard of Kodalith film, it's a graphics arts film. Normal speed of film is 100, 400. This was 6 and I had no idea what it was. So I went and got a 4 x 5 camera, loaded it. Thought I was going to take it--I got a light meter, took it to the quad and took a light reading. It was like a five-second exposure, wide-open on the camera. So I had to go back to get a tripod, went and took the picture, five-second exposures. Back in and processed the film. And I showed it to him and says “What do you want me to do with this?” He said, “Nothing, throw it away.” I said “Well what was that all about?” He said, “Some day when you're a professional, you will be called upon to do different assignments. You better be prepared for anything that comes up.” AC: Wow. DR: We had what's called the photographers bible. It was a book, maybe 5 x 7, by maybe three inches thick with every film, every chemical, every processing imaginable. And that became my bible. I would study that thing left and right. Another thing, one year for Christmas vacation he asked me, “What are you doing for vacation?” Said not a whole lot. He says, “I want you--look up this doctor at a biology lab during Christmas vacation. Want you to shoot color slide, color negative, black and white and infrared film. Go to the doctor with it and ask him what he wants. So Christmas vacation I went, found him and he was doing an autopsy on a cadaver with about four or five students. And I had a cold that day. And they are tearing up this body apart-- AC: Oh dear god. DR: They’re just carving into him and I am taking pictures all over. And I asked the doctor, “What do you want pictures of?” He said “Dendle said you would just come over, I’ve got no use for you.” (laughs) So I shot all those four types of film. So anyway I learned the man had apparently been an alcoholic. They took out his kidneys and his liver, (unclear) cirrhosis. Little five-foot girl riding her fingers along the tendon from her toes up to his hip and I couldn’t smell anything I had a cold that day. But I found out that your hair grows after you’re dead, because the cadaver's bald and it had quarter-inch fuzz on him. And he mentioned that to the students. Which I didn’t notice. His hair keeps on growing. AC: And you had that-- DR: And the fingernails-- AC: On the photo. Lucky you! DR: Yeah right. So after Christmas break I took it all to Dendle, all the proof sheets and all the negatives and everything. “Here's the—what do you want me to do with them?” He said, “Throw them away, I don't want ‘em! I don’t even want to see them.” But that was another lesson in that you’re going to be called upon to do—you don't know what you will be called upon to do. And his advice to me was curiosity. Never lose your curiosity. It will take you through-- AC: You think about journalism and for newspapers, yeah I mean you could-- DR: But I didn't study for newspapers. AC: No, no, I know-- DR: I studied for commercial photography. AC: But he had instincts that you—he didn’t know where you ended up. AC: So he wanted to give you like the worst-case scenario. DR: Right. yeah he wanted to prepare me for whatever came. So he came to me second semester, I think. He said, “How would you like a job working in a photo studio? They don't pay much, a dollar and half an hour. But you work any hours you want. Yopu work weekends, nights, whatever. You get the use of all the cameras, all their equipment, all their paper, everything.” Which was at the time photography was the second most expensive class in college. The first expensive class was welding. So I took that job for a photographer named Bob Boyd, who was another teacher, another instructor. The man was a phenomenal photographer. He worked for Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising Agency. So I did all his processing, all his pictures. I sent out the color stuff to the labs, but everything else I did. I printed all my stuff, I shot all my assignments in the studio. And like I said, I had just got married. Second--the third semester, Mr. Dendle came up to me and says “How would you like a job on a cruise ship?“ I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “The Director of the Seven Seas College—Seven Seas University? College. They are touring East China, Japan, Vietnam, going down to Australia and up to North Africa for nine months. No pay. Room and Board, but you can take any class you want. Any you're gonna be the ship's photographer. You can take pictures of whatever anyone wants, of anything. You can take classes of anything you want.” AC: Now at this time you had closed down your landscaping (business) or were you still-- DR: No. AC: Did you turn it over to your dad? DR: I had. I gave up most of the contracts. I saved some for my dad to work three--four days a week, three days a week at the most. He was getting ready to retire on Social Security. AC: But for your own income? DR: I worked weekends and in the photo lab. AC: So you are still doing both. DR: Yes. So I had just gotten married and I didn't think it was good to leave my new wife. AC: For nine months. DR: And my stepson. He was five years old. For nine months and with no income. No money coming in. So I didn't do that. But my last year, Bob Boyd who used to do filming, used to do commercials in San Diego, plus professional photography, commercial, helped him out a lot--asked me to go up to Hayward, California with him for a week. Now this is toward the end of the semester. To do a job up there, film developer for a week. So I talked to Mr. Dendle, and he said, “Yeah go ahead, no problem. Your year is completed, get out of here.” So I did. And I completed my classes there and I started looking for work. I had my brochure. I had my—what they call a—my book. They had a name for it. With some of my best photography. AC: Like a portfolio? DR: A brag. Called it a brag book. AC: Oh okay. DR: And I had it, put photos back-to-back in a binder – drill holes and put a All of my best photography was in there. My good photos were back to back in a binder—drill holes and put a spiral backing on it. I went all over town looking for work. Commercial studios, portrait studios, advertising agencies, all over town. And they all said the same thing. Your stuff is really, really good, but you don't have any experience. Go out and get a job for a year and come back. So it was at this time that one of the salesman for a commercial photography sales came in. I asked him if he knew of anyone who wanted a photographer, I says I’m looking for a job. He said, “As a matter of fact, I came from Escondido and they are looking for a photographer in the Escondido newspaper.” AC: Perfect. DR: They got a newspaper in Escondido? (laughs) I had no idea, 'cause I was just San Diego. Had the San Diego Union, Evening Tribune. So on Sunday, we drove up here and got a newspaper from the stand. And they (San Diego Union) had gone letter press and they (Escondido Times-Advocate) were still using virgin paper. No recycled stuff. And It was bright white. And the type was just--and the printing was just amazing. I couldn’t believe it. And the photography! The pictures looked like they were actual photographs. AC: You could cut them out and-- DR: And I was used to the letter press in San Diego and I couldn’t believe they had the offset press over here. Said, “oh my god!” And the town was little, I think the town (Escondido) was maybe only twenty-thousand at the time, 20-25,000. AC: You know this is a great place to stop, are we good to stop? DR: Oh yeah, sure. Sure, yeah. AC: Wonderful. I’m gonna hit stop. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. 
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Title
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Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017.
Description
An account of the resource
Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer.
As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate.
Identifier
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SC003-01
Subject
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Agricultural laborers -- California
Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.)
Mexican Americans
Photojournalists
Date
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2017-03-30
Format
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audio
Creator
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Daniel Flores Rios
Contributor
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Alexa Clausen
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Escondido (Calif.)
Hanford (Calif.)
La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.)
Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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California State University San Marcos
Community history
Latine experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/dea079642a3f09d75884acccad846742.mp4
77ca020582301ba6dafd3e16ac2aec59
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
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Oral history of Thomas Moore, November 3, 2025
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Thomas Moore
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Jason Beyer
Vyanh Vo Felty
Marilyn Huerta
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2025-11-03
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Thomas Moore
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Moving image
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MooreThomas_BeyerJason_2025-11-3
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San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Community history
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Veteran experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f521e4bb2ad98141aead0a88138f8bc3.mp4
15816d5ae97ac30723ce621cfe8ea78e
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Title
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Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
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Oral history of Dora Luevano, November 6, 2025
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Dora Luevano
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Jason Beyer
Vyanh Vo Felty
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2025-11-06
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Dora Luevano
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LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6
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San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Description
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Dora Luevano served as a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. She was stationed at Camp Pendleton during the Vietnam War. Luevano worked in a warehouse and office, processing deceased servicemembers, collecting their personal effects, and writing letters to their family and loved ones. Luevano described her strict upbringing, immigration to the U.S. as a child from El Salvador, and decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. Luevano was forced out of military service for getting married and having a child, and she reflected on the harsh expectations and regulations that affected women in military service. She spoke about her 60-year marriage to her husband, whom she met in the Marine Corps, and their life together after military service. Luevano described how her civilian life was shaped by her upbringing, religion, military service, education, professional career, business ownership, and husband’s recent passing.
Subject
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United States. Marine Corps
Pacific Bell Telephone Company
Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Camp Lejeune (N.C.)
California State University, San Bernardino
Palomar College
Coverage
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Vietnam
San Salvador (El Salvador)
El Salvador
United States
San Francisco (Calif.)
South Carolina
New York (United States)
Fallbrook (Calif.)
Las Vegas (Nev.)
California
Palm Desert (Calif.)
Indio (Calif.)
Palm Springs (Calif.)
Philippines
Vista (Calif.)
Community history
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Veteran experience
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Jason Beyer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Thomas Galyean
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_access.xml
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United States. Army—Veterans;Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975;chicken farm;U.S. Forest Service;El Cariso Hot Shots;Reserve Officers' Training Corps;San Marcos High School (Calif.);University of California, Los Angeles (Calif.);helitack;Loop Fire (Calif.);flight school;Fort Wolters (Texas);Fort Knox (Kentucky);The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam;We Were Soldiers;hunter-killer team;Bell AH-1 Cobra;Pleiku (Vietnam);Phan Rang (Vietnam);Bearcat (Vietnam);napalm;Fort Rucker (Alabama);Fort Hood (Texas);1968 Democratic National Convention;Gray Air Force Base (Texas);Ground-Controlled Approach;Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association;7-17th CAV;University of Virginia;Qui Nhon (Vietnam);My Lai (Vietnam);free-fire zone;return fire;law school;attorney;Fort Polk (Louisiana)
OHMS Object Text
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6.0 Galyean, Thomas. Interview November 12th, 2024. SC027-071 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm United States. Army—Veterans ; Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 ; chicken farm ; U.S. Forest Service ; El Cariso Hot Shots ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; San Marcos High School (Calif.) ; University of California, Los Angeles (Calif.) ; helitack ; Loop Fire (Calif.) ; flight school ; Fort Wolters (Texas) ; Fort Knox (Kentucky) ; The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam ; We Were Soldiers ; hunter-killer team ; Bell AH-1 Cobra ; Pleiku (Vietnam) ; Phan Rang (Vietnam) ; Bearcat (Vietnam) ; napalm ; Fort Rucker (Alabama) ; Fort Hood (Texas) ; 1968 Democratic National Convention ; Gray Air Force Base (Texas) ; Ground-Controlled Approach ; Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association ; 7-17th CAV ; University of Virginia ; Qui Nhon (Vietnam) ; My Lai (Vietnam) ; free-fire zone ; return fire ; law school ; attorney ; Fort Polk (Louisiana) Thomas Galyean Jason Beyer Moving image GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/719f129d05a256f9cb4708d531ea8735.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Personal Background Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He grew up working on his family’s chicken farm in San Marcos. His grandfather and uncle served in the military, and his father worked for Consolidated Aircraft building the B-25. Prior to entering the military, Galyean fought forest fires for the U.S. Forest Service with the El Cariso Hot Shots. U.S. Army ; Vietnam War ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Spanish-American War ; World War I ; World War II ; B-25 ; Consolidated Aircraft ; chicken farm ; U.S. Forest Service ; El Cariso Hot Shots 0 154 Military Enlistment There was compulsory military service for all men physically qualified for combat from Galyean’s high school graduating class of 1964. Galyean enlisted in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps when he enrolled at UCLA, which gave him the military deferment necessary to complete college before entering active duty as a Lieutenant. Galyean says he enlisted in the Army because it had a year-less time commitment than other branches. While on summer break before returning to UCLA, twelve members of the El Cariso Hot Shots died in the Loop Fire. Galyean says that the helitack units who helped save some firefighters inspired his interest in helicopter flight. Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; Army ; Army ROTC ; ROTC ; San Marcos High School ; UCLA ; helitack ; Loop Fire ; U.S. Navy ; U.S. Marines ; U.S. Airforce 0 329 Early Days of Military Service and Training Galyean completed flight school for fixed wing aircraft while in his senior year of college. Once on active duty, Galyean went to the officer basic course at Fort Knox, Kentucky as an Armor. He then began rotary wing flight school at Fort Wolters in Texas. Armor Officer ; basic training ; Second Lieutenant ; training ; Armor ; flight school ; fixed wing ; rotary wing ; platoon ; Fort Wolters ; Texas ; Fort Knox ; Kentucky ; helicopter ; TH-55 ; Howard Hughes ; Hughes Tool Company 0 455 Deployment to Vietnam Galyean references a documentary called The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam. He says he personally experienced most of what was described in the documentary, but his experience with the rules of engagement regarding return fire was different from the documentary. Galyean then describes his general experience of military service in Vietnam as part of an Air Cavalry troop. Galyean describes the organization of his platoon, their typical responsibilities, the Ho Chi Minh Trail, Montagnards, free-fire zones, hunter-killer teams, napalm strikes, capturing enemy POWs, and evacuations. Galyean mentions the film, We Were Soldiers, and says it depicted much of what he experienced. Amazon Prime ; The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam ; Air Cavalry ; light observation helicopter ; OH-6 ; Central Highlands (Vietnam) ; Ho Chi Minh Trail (Vietnam) ; Vietnam ; South Vietnam ; Laos ; Cambodia ; free-fire zone ; Montagnard (Vietnam) ; 4th Infantry ; battalion ; Cobra (AH-1) ; scout (helicopter) ; hunter-killer team ; command and control ; Huey (Bell UH-1 Iroquois) ; F-100 ; Pleiku ; Phan Rang ; Bearcat ; napalm ; We Were Soldiers ; P.O.W. camp 0 1071 Promotions and New Responsibilities Galyean finished his aircraft training at Fort Ruckers, Alabama before beginning a stateside tour at Fort Hood, Texas, where he was assigned a unique responsibility for his first six months. After the 1968 Democratic National Convention, the U.S. President ordered there be developed a response team so the military could suppress riots. Galyean, then a Flight Operations Officer, worked with the Air Force from nearby Gray Air Force Base to organize an immediate response team and coordinate drills. For his second six months at Fort Hood, Galyean was commanding officer of the aviation support detachment for headquarters as part of the 501st Supply and Transport Battalion. Their main responsibility was quickly building temporary runways and landing strips for the Air Force, so that the armored division practically had its own portable airport. They used a Ground-Controlled Approach, which was a radar unit with a small control tower on a trailer used to call down aircraft. Vietnam ; Fort Rucker ; Fort Wolters ; flight school ; Huey ; First Lieutenant ; Fort Hood ; First Armored Division ; 1968 Democratic National Convention ; riot ; Chicago (Ill.) ; National Guard ; United States ; U.S. Air Force ; C-130 ; Gray Air Force Base ; Mechanized Infantry Battalion ; aircraft ; flight operations officer ; Brownsville (Tex.) ; aviation support detachment ; headquarters ; 501st Supply and Transport Battalion ; Deuce-and-a-Half ; pierced steel planking ; Desert Storm ; armored division ; Ground-Controlled Approach ; G.C.A. ; aero rifle platoon ; radar unit ; captain ; commanding officer 0 1565 Air Cavalry Assignment By the time he completed his stateside tour and deployed to Vietnam, Galyean was a Captain assigned to an Air Cavalry troop. He was made commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft throughout the week and conducting maintenance on Sundays. For his last six months in Vietnam, Captain Galyean was an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters. He operated the control center assigning the Air Cavalry squadron and worked in conjunction with attack helicopter companies. At headquarters, he kept track of which units were flyable and ensured that aircraft got their assignments for supplying units. Vietnam ; Table of Organization ; Air Cavalry ; Air Cavalry Squadron ; Air Cavalry troop ; maintenance troop ; Huey Cobra ; Huey ; Cobra ; OH-6 ; gunship ; pilot ; platoon ; rifle platoon ; scout platoon ; light observation helicopter ; Assistant S3 0 1905 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle, and Media Representations of Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Galyean says that his general experience in Vietnam was difficult to adapt to, but he was forced to adapt quickly. He says the wives of American GIs especially struggled. The best writing he read on what it was like as a helicopter pilot in Vietnam are John Steinbeck’s writings as a war correspondent in Vietnam. Galyean again positively references the documentary, The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam. He discusses rules of engagement for return fire. He says scouts often had to shoot first or they would be killed before they found enemy combatants. Vietnam ; We Were Soldiers ; Mel Gibson ; wife ; Facebook ; Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association ; John Steinbeck ; Lady Bird ; Claudia Alta Johnson ; Lyndon B. Johnson ; L.B.J. ; University of Virginia ; Pleiku ; Air Cavalry ; Google ; Amazon Prime ; documentary ; helicopter pilot ; return fire 0 2292 Mechanical Issues with Huey Helicopters and Civilian Casualties in Vietnam Galyean describes some of the mechanical issues that Huey helicopters had. He tells a story from his time as an Assistant S3. He says a Cobras for one of his troops working along a beach had a rocket misfire and injured a little boy’s leg. Galyean says the My Lai massacre’s exposure to the public resulted in a standing order requiring investigations of civilian casualties to ensure whether they were intentional or accidental. Galyean was called upon to investigate the situation, and he says that, at the hospital where the boy was, the mother did not want to see the pilot chastised. Assistant S3 ; 7th Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment ; helicopter ; Cobra ; Huey ; Huey B ; gunship ; rocket pod ; jet ; F-4 ; F-100 ; rotor system ; single rotor ; Qui Nhon ; boy ; My Lai ; Lieutenant William Calley ; civilian ; village ; Kit Carson Scouts ; NVA ; North Vietnamese Army ; platoon ; Lieutenant ; hospital ; Jeep ; Vietcong ; 7-17th CAV 0 2730 Good Luck, Recreation, Comradery, and Communication with Family While in Vietnam For good luck, Galyean prayed often. For off days and days without flying, Galyean recalls relaxing and listening to music with his comrades. Sundays were maintenance days and typically the first or last day of someone’s deployment, so they would throw parties for all the incoming and outgoing GIs. Galyean tells a humorous story about how they once cooked steak and lobster for their dinner. He says everyone he served with was like brothers to him. While in Vietnam, he would write to his wife often. After returning from Vietnam, he has kept in touch with some of the people he served alongside. prayer ; recreation ; music ; maintenance ; party ; 501st Supply Transport Battalion ; commanding officer ; food distribution ; First Armored Division ; Army ; Qui Nhon ; Tuy Hoa ; steak ; lobster ; Mess Sergeant ; friendship ; comradery ; infantrymen ; pilot ; scout ; family ; letter ; Vietnam 0 3030 End of Military Service, Adjusting to Civilian Life, and Joining a Veterans’ Organization Galyean ended his service while at Fort Hood, Texas, from which he drove to Brawley, California, where his wife was living with her parents and working for a car dealership. In the newspaper, he learned of a job opportunity for Imperial County leading the creation of a public employment program for Vietnam veterans. He worked for Imperial County for five months until he started law school in San Diego. Galyean says he was received well upon his return from Vietnam but mentions a fellow pilot with PTSD who committed suicide. He says his wife excelled as an accountant working for her parents’ car dealership, so she had no problem finding similar work elsewhere. Galyean joined the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association and attended their convention in San Diego. He was also involved in writing some of the history of the 7-17th CAV. service ; Fort Hood (Tex.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; newspaper ; law school ; advertisement ; Imperial County (Calif.) ; Public Employment Program ; veteran ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War ; Vietnam veteran ; personnel analyst ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; family ; community ; Navy Marine ; F-4 ; pilot ; car dealer ; high school ; accountant ; Ford ; GM ; Chrysler ; Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association ; convention ; 717th CAV 0 3478 Reflections on Military Service Galyean says it was a godsend that he survived and calls his wife the angel of his life. He thinks it is a natural response that most veterans who have seen combat have some PTSD. He says military service taught him to have faith in the Lord’s will, follow your heart, and defend the U.S. political system. wife ; PTSD ; life lessons ; military service ; war ; veteran ; faith ; attorney ; constitutional system ; government 0 3673 01:01:13 Association with North County San Diego Galyean grew up on his father’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California. After spending time on military bases across the country, he and his wife wanted to return to San Diego. Galyean tells the story of how his father migrated from Arkansas to San Marcos and were employed by Fred Williams, who owned multiple businesses in the city. He says that his family never left San Marcos and all of his siblings still reside there. San Marcos (Calif.) ; chicken farm ; chicken hatchery ; Fort Polk ; Louisiana ; Fort Rucker ; Alabama ; Fort Hood ; Texas ; San Diego County (Calif.) ; John Steinbeck ; Grapes of Wrath ; Arkansas ; Fred Williams ; cottage 0 3808 Final Reflections on Military Service and Veterans Galyean emphasizes that the documentary, The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam, and the movie, We Were Soldiers, are good representations of his military experience. He wishes more people knew that veterans are “just good, ordinary, responsible people.” He says his experience taught him to love your life and work, do what you love, and do it the best you can. movie ; love ; life ; ordinary ; brotherhood ; veteran ; experience ; responsible 0 Oral history Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He served with the 7-17th CAV as commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft. Galyean then served as an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters, ensuring that aircraft received their assignments. Raised on his family’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California, Galyean narrates his family history, his decision to join the U.S. Army, and his interest in helicopter flight. Galyean describes his experience in flight school, including reflections on media representations of military training and the Vietnam War. Galyean describes his unique role while serving stateside, forming a military response team to suppress riots in the wake of the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Galyean meditates on the impact of controversial topics, such as the My Lai massacre, civilian casualties, and the rules of engagement. Galyean reflects on religion, comradery, family, and how the military changed his life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.985 --> 00:00:57.994 My name is Jason Victor Byer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Thomas Galyean. Today's date is Tuesday, November 12, 2024. We are located at the Kellogg Library at California State University San Marcos at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Beyer ; the interviewee, Thomas Galyean ; and Adel Bautista, the camera operator. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name. 00:00:57.994 --> 00:01:00.725 Thomas Earl Galyean. 00:01:00.725 --> 00:01:02.000 Your branch of service. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.635 U.S. Army. 00:01:04.635 --> 00:01:06.484 The highest rank you attained. 00:01:06.484 --> 00:01:08.254 Captain. 00:01:08.254 --> 00:01:11.275 And any war or conflicts you served with. 00:01:11.275 --> 00:01:13.935 The Vietnam War. 00:01:13.935 --> 00:01:21.905 Thank you. So I'll begin by asking you your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:21.905 --> 00:01:24.795 San Diego, California. 00:01:24.795 --> 00:01:30.325 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:30.325 --> 00:02:10.544 the Spanish-American War, World War I, and World War II. And my uncle was a B-25 pilot in World War II. And my father though not in the military worked for Consolidated Aircraft, building the B-25. 00:02:10.544 --> 00:02:15.504 Did you hold any jobs prior to entering the military? 00:02:15.504 --> 00:02:34.835 The only job that I had besides working on the chicken farm I grew up on was—I did fight forest fires with the U.S. Forest Service, while I was in college one summer, with the El Cariso Hot Shots. 00:02:34.835 --> 00:02:42.324 When and why did you choose to join the military? Were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:42.324 --> 00:04:39.805 Actually, I ended up going to, enlisting through Army ROTC because I graduated from San Marcos High School in 1964. And when I graduated, there was compulsory military service. Everybody in my class who was a male who was physically qualified for combat—if they didn't have a deferment for ROTC, Reserve Officer Training Corps, at some college—were instantly drafted. Everybody else in my class who didn't go on a deferment and who was physically qualified were drafted. So, when I enrolled at UCLA, I took Army ROTC, and that gave me the deferment necessary to complete my degree and then be able to go on active duty as a Lieutenant. So, the one job that I had before that was fighting forest fires. And that particular crew, a month-and-a-half after I went back to school, was caught in the Loop Fire. Twelve of 'em burned to death. A thirteenth one died later. But, so, uh—and that could have been my fate had I not returned to UCLA for ROTC. But in the—seeing what happened and working with those guys and the helitack units—a couple of which helped save a couple of them—interested me in helicopter flight, which is what I ultimately did in the Army. 00:04:39.805 --> 00:04:46.915 You say that you entered into the branch known as the Army. Why did you choose that specific branch? 00:04:46.915 --> 00:05:29.584 Well, actually, I had the choice at that point—because UCLA had the ROTC for the Navy and Marines as well as the Air Force—to do any one of 'em. But I at that point picked the Army because, frankly, it had a year-less time commitment. After I was done with the military—'cause it had one year less than the others did—but then when I ended up volunteering for flight—to fly—then my commitment ended up being the same. 00:05:29.584 --> 00:05:34.774 For your early days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:05:34.774 --> 00:17:51.243 First school I had was Armor Officer Basic, because when you graduated as a Second Lieutenant and you were gonna fly, they had already—while I was during my senior year—they had already provided me with fixed wing training. So I learned to fly a fixed wing aircraft. But they then assign you a branch for a combat branch to serve in in the event you don't make it through flight school or—and depending on what branch you ended up with, the type of assignment you got when you got done with a rotary wing flight school. So they assigned me to Armor Officer as an officer in the Armor branch, which meant that as soon as I went on active duty, I went to Officer's basic course at Fort Knox, Kentucky for Armor, where basically they teach you to be a tank platoon leader. And then from there—that was basically a three-month course—then they send you to rotary wing flight school. Now the flight school is in two four-months consecutive portions. The first portion was at Fort Wolters, Texas, and that's where they teach you to fly a helicopter. They used a couple of different aircrafts. The one that I got trained in was what they call the TH-55, which was built by Howard Hughes and Hughes Tool Company, which we then learned to fly in at Fort Wolters, Texas. Now for anybody who really wanted to see what that involved, I just found out here a few months ago that on Amazon Prime there's available a about-an-hour video which is called Personal Experience of Helicopter Pilots in Vietnam (The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam). And it shows all the different trainings you got and then different types of experiences that you would have in Vietnam. And the only one in there that didn't, wasn't exactly what I experienced all the time—and I could identify with everything in that movie—was that we were always allowed to return fire if we were fired upon. Because what we did as an Air Cavalry troop, which is what I was in, you had three platoons: one platoon was a platoon of light observation helicopters—OH-6. The idea was we would be assigned an area, and most of my flights were in the Central Highlands area of Vietnam, along and in the vicinity of the Ho Chi Minh Trail—the western boundary of South Vietnam where it bordered up against Laos and Cambodia—and it was all jungle type of activity areas, so they would assigned to us a free-fire zone, they call it a (unintelligible) area, where we knew there were no friendlies at all. The only indigenous population that could be there in some of the places were what were called Montagnards. They were individual little communities of mountain people that lived in little villages that were built up on stakes. You knew where they were, you stayed away from 'em. They stayed away from everybody. They were the—so when we would go into whatever area they would give, if it moved, we could kill it, because it was the only humans we would see would be the enemy. So the way it would work is they would give us an area to work from—and what I mean by that, there'd be a clearing or an area someplace within about a 10 to 15 minute flight from the area where you're supposed to observe and search, where they would take out a fuel truck and there would be a fuel truck for us to be able to land and refill at. And frequently there would be, depending on whether we were working with the 4th Infantry or a South Vietnamese unit, there'd usually be an extra company to a battalion of soldiers there that were friendly soldiers from where we would work. So the scouts would fly in the area, they would try and find the enemy. And above them would be flying a couple of Cobras. The press called them hunter-killer teams of two scouts and two Cobras. And they'd be on station for a couple hours, and we'd be out there with two sets. So they would come off the search and they'd be replaced immediately on station by another team of two scout light observation helicopters and two Cobras. So what would happen—and then I would have—my infantry platoon would be—fly out and land at the staging area, usually. The only time that didn't happen was if the scouts found something before we got landed. And so once the scouts found something, our command and control ship that would be out there with the hunter-killer team, they'd try and assess as quickly as possible what kind of enemy we were looking at—how big the units were there, what was it gonna take to engage. We'd try and get a first landing zone, a place where we get at least hopefully four helicopters, but a minimum of two. And so what we would do is we would take my Hueys (Bell UH-1 Iroquois) with our infantry platoon, and we'd fly into that area first, and we'd put my infantry platoon, which usually went—it was reduced because at that time we were hard—it was hard to get replacements. 20 to 30 infantrymen we would put on the ground first to secure the landing zone. And then if we needed more troops to engage whatever enemy was found, then we would, with my Huey Platoon, be ferrying in the additional troops that were needed into that landing zone. Meanwhile, as soon as the enemy was found, the scouts, if they could, would throw a smoke grenade in the area they wanted hit the hardest. The Cobras would come in there and spray up the area. We always had the—the CNC (command and control) always had extra radios with the frequencies of the closest artillery unit that was usually on a fire base on hill round. And so, they would be able to immediately call in artillery if needed. There were different points that the artillery units that were out there would have marked. We knew where they were, they knew where they were. We'd give 'em the point to fire, to first start firing, and then we would be able to adjust because we had—we were all trained, but our CNC were trained in how to adjust artillery—and so we would adjust artillery, and our CNC always had available tactical air support jets—F-100s, usually—out of Pleiku, Phan Rang, or Bearcat. Those were the three closest Air Force bases that always had F-100s available for immediate response. So we would call in a fire strike—our command and control—which would come in and shoot up the place wherever we wanted a napalm strike. And then we would bring in the rest of whatever infantrymen we wanted to engage the enemy. And then if you ever saw a movie, We Were Soldiers, that movie depicted a lot of what we did just about every day. But, plus, the one thing they learned, that movie was about the very first Air Cavalry operation. But what we learned at that point, because we were always putting people in where there was no other friendly around before dark, we would withdraw all of the people that we'd put on the ground, because there was a decent chance if we didn't, they wouldn't be there the next day. So that's basically the way we would work. If—once we were on the ground, if we had found a bunch of materiel of the enemy, our infantrymen would burn it or capture some of it. If we captured the enemy—and a lot of times we did—then we would fly the enemy to a P.O.W. camp in Pleiku. Frequently we would end up, if somebody—whether it was the enemy or some of our own soldiers that were—had been wounded, we would fly them to the hospital at Pleiku to evacuate them there. And that's basically the general way we worked from day to day. 00:17:51.243 --> 00:17:55.634 Did you receive any promotions? And if so, could you tell me about them? 00:17:55.634 --> 00:31:45.355 Yeah, well, I was—originally I was a programmed to go to Vietnam directly out of flight school, because for the first five or six years of the war, as soon as a class graduated in Fort Rucker, they immediately went to Vietnam. They had a three-year flight commitment, which meant they would go to Vietnam, come home—if they were still around—for a year, and then go back for a second year in Vietnam. But because of when I graduated from flight school—I mean I was fortunate. I was fortunate because I ended up an extra two months after the first half of flight school because my wife was pregnant and she was about ready to deliver. And the flight surgeons and her doctor at Fort Wolters said it was not safe for us to travel and her to move to Fort Rucker. Since my commitment started at the end of flight school, they said, "We'll just let you join a later class"—which is what happened. So the class that I originally started with, started the second half, about a month before I ended up starting. And as it turned out, two weeks before we graduated from the second part of flight school, which was during our tactics and combat training in a Huey, I got a stateside tour first. So I was—because of the way that it worked, I was a First Lieutenant by the time I got done with flight school. And then I ended up, as a First Lieutenant, going to Fort Hood to the First Armored Division where I was the flight operations officer for the division. Now, I had a very interesting job when I got there because besides being in charge of the flight operations, making sure all the pilots that were at Fort Hood from in the First Armored Division that were between tours of Vietnam got all their flight time, 'cause they still had to fly. But at that point in time, the year—in 1968 there had been riots at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. And so the president had ordered that there be developed a program—because it took so long to get soldiers and National Guard to Chicago for that riot to have an immediate response team. Some teams already set up to where if there was some kind of a riot in the United States that needed to have military control, they didn't run into the problem they had run into at the Chicago Convention of getting them there in time to do a lot of good. So my job was to work with the Air Force there first and organize a situation where we had a Mechanized Infantry Battalion from the First Armored Division on standby to meet with a bunch of Air Force C-130s at Gray Air Force Base—which was right next to Fort Hood, which was where we were—where they could at a moment's notice—they called the drill twice. We did it twice while I was there. Where they would say, we need to scramble like we were going to some place. So, we had it organized, which the—where the Air Force C-130s would come from and marry up with the Mechanized Infantry Battalion of the First Armored Division that was to be used to get 'em over there, load them, take 'em up and fly 'em around for a few hours to make sure, you know, that the timing was such, we could get 'em gone as quickly as possible, you know? (Galyean smiles and laughs.) And so that was kind of a screwy job. Nobody ever had it before. But that was one of the things I got to do. So that, and during that period of time, because for that first six months that I was there, I was the Flight Operations Officer, we'd have—when a Huey got a thousand hours or whatever it was of flight time in Vietnam, they would bring them back to be rebuilt—put in a new engine and do all kinds of rebuild to these aircraft that were still in shape to be rebuilt. And they would fly 'em into Gray Air Force base, take off the tail rotors and the tail boom and the rotors. And they would fly 'em over, put 'em back together there at Gray Air Force Base, and then we would get pilots there who—and we're talking 30 aircraft at a time, 30 or 40—we would just have fly down to Brownsville, which is where they were rebuilt, and then bring them back, and then the next week there'd be a bunch. So that's basically what I was doing the first six months. The second six months that I was there, I was the commanding officer of this aviation support detachment, of which the headquarters was a little part of—which is part of the 501st Supply and Transport Battalion, and the whole mission and ability of that aviation support detachment was—they gave—we had some Deuce-and-a-Halfs with a lot of PSP, pierced steel planking, that we could go out and set up a runway that the Air Force could bring in that would be a portable runway. The theory was when you're in an armored division and you're moving as hopefully you'd be moving like we saw later in Desert Storm, you'd have the ability to take with the armored division its own airport. And we had a little G.C.A. (Ground-Controlled Approach), which was a radar unit that you could call down aircraft through a cloud, you know, and a little control tower that was on a trailer that you could pull. So basically you could have your own airfield with the armored division as it was moving. So that was my job for the second six months. But by the time I was then—I went to Vietnam, I was a captain. I was—I'd had a six month commanding officer experience as a company commander of this aviation support detachment. So when I got to Vietnam for the T.O.R.—the Table of Organization—when they, I got there, they assigned me to an Air Cavalry troop. The Air Cavalry troop being consisted of three Air Cavalry—I mean, the Air Cavalry Squadron had three Air Cavalry troops and a maintenance troop. And so each one of these Air Cavalry troops would be the separate units that would go out and have a certain area to look at and to study. So I was then a Captain, which called for—when I got there, they made me the commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, which consisted of 10 Hueys of which four or five we needed to fly every mission. And then the other two platoons—of the other platoons of Air Cavalry troop were the scout platoon, that had a dozen light observation helicopters with a pilot for each and a door gunner crew chief for each ; and a dozen Huey Cobras, gunships, and the pilots for those. So, like I say, I had the rifle platoon, so what we did was bring in my platoon every day to wherever we were gonna be to secure a landing zone if we needed one to engage the enemy. And then at the end of the day, whatever we'd put in to fight the enemy, we'd take 'em back at the end of the day. And, during the six months that I did that, it was basically, out of a week, we would probably have an average of five days that we would actually fly. Sundays were always a maintenance day, and we could pretty well count on one of the days during Monday through Saturday for some reason, whether we had too many shot down or not enough flyable because it takes a lot of maintenance to keep a helicopter in the air. We used to figure an hour of maintenance times for an hour of flight time for a Huey, and for a Cobra and an OH-6, an hour-and-a-half to two hours of maintenance time for every hour of flight. So, that's what we would do for an average, I'd say, of like five days a week for the six months that I was there in that position. Now, the last half of my time in Vietnam—and I was still as a Captain, which is what I did for the rest of the time—I was in the headquarters. And in the headquarters I was what they called an Assistant S3—S3 being the operations section of the headquarters. And my job was, for part of the time, to man the control center, which meant that we would assign the Air Cavalry squadron—also worked in conjunction with a couple of attack helicopter companies. And our headquarters would get in the assignments for what aircraft in our area needed to be supplied to what units. We'd get the—and we usually would get that by about midnight—then by two or three in the morning, hopefully we would have received from each unit's maintenance how many aircraft they had that were flyable. So we could sit there and we immediately assign what aircraft units were gonna supply what aircraft to what units, you know, to support, so we could get 'em out to where they could fly—take off as soon as the sun came up. And that's basically what I did for the last six months. 00:31:45.355 --> 00:31:56.214 What was the hardest part of military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:31:56.214 --> 00:38:12.885 Oh, I would say just Vietnam in general. The—it was harder probably for my wife. If you ever saw the movie We Were Soldiers by Mel Gibson, that's the only movie I've ever seen that really showed what our wives went through. But it didn't take very long to adjust though, because you had to adjust real fast (laughs). You didn't have much, much choice. The—one of the—people have asked me a lot what it was like to fly over there. And as a matter of fact, somebody had posted and asked on Facebook for some—on the website for the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association—for people to describe what it was like. Well, probably the best thing I've ever read that describes what it was like to fly in a Huey one of the missions like we flew on was something written by John Steinbeck. It turned out that John Steinbeck's wife and Lady Bird (Claudia Alta "Lady Bird" Johnson) were very close friends in college. So L.B.J. (Lyndon B. Johnson) commissioned John Steinbeck to go to Vietnam for a year, do as many things as he could, and send back daily dispatches that went to LBJ. And they got published at some time in a magazine, but ultimately the University of Virginia a few years ago collected all these and published them. And there is a three or four page dispatch that he wrote that describes his experience in flying out of Pleiku on a Air Cavalry operation in which he was flying out of the same exact place that we flew out of, into the same area with an Air Cavalry troop, a couple of years before I was there. So, anybody who wanted to read something, that's all they gotta do is Google: Helicopter, John Steinbeck, and Vietnam. And it'll pop right up and you can read it. That's—now for other means to be able to see what it was like, I saw here a month or two ago on Amazon Prime, they had done a documentary—it's about an hour long—of personal experiences of Vietnam helicopter pilots. All you gotta do is Google that, if you're on Amazon Prime, and it'll come up with this one-hour presentation that goes through the steps of flight school and then what it was like flying there. And I experienced just about everything you can see in that video, except one thing: one of the units evidently said they were not allowed to return fire if they were shot at without specific authority after that. We always had the right—as far as our unit knew—to return fire if fired upon. There was a point in time when they came down and said we couldn't fire until we were fired upon. But that presented a problem for the scouts, because usually the first way they would find the enemy—and when they would find them, the enemy would find them and start shooting at 'em. So if you didn't—if they didn't fire first, well, the usual way that the scouts would do it is if they saw the enemy, they'd target the enemy, shoot to break off, so they could get away. And then the Cobras would come down and rake the area. And then we'd bring in whatever else. So we always had the power to return fire, our unit did. And frequently our scouts had to shoot first or they were dead by the time they found the enemy. But other than that, I think that one hour documentary just about shows everything that guys experienced that—and I could identify with all of it. 00:38:12.885 --> 00:38:20.875 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during deployment? 00:38:20.875 --> 00:45:30.755 During the period of time that I was the Assistant S3, scheduling things and running the operation center during the day when there was an emergency—something had to be done, they'd call in and we'd scramble whatever ship—because we always had standby ships available for emergencies. There was a situation that happened—and frankly the unit I was in, was the only unit that ever had a complete history that was written afterwards, 7-17th CAV (7th Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment), that from which they solicited recollections of actual pilots and crews from the battle plan (Galyean's cellphone rings and he silences it) things of all of the different units in the 7-17th., and it described it a little bit in this. What happened was, you see the rockets that were fired from helicopter from a Cobra or a Huey, when they used the Huey B models for gunships, were from rocket pods that that were developed for jets—for the F-4, the F-100, which is a very solid platform. Now with a Huey and a Cobra—with the type of rotor system they have, which was a single rotor—every time that the rotor is perpendicular to the direction of flight, you get a little (Galyean bounces once in his chair) bump, a little increase lift. And so you're always like this—(Galyean bounces side to side in his chair)—when you're flying. And you—that's that (Galyean points up, twirls his finger, and imitates a helicopter sound) wha, wha, wha, wha, wha that you hear when you hear a Huey go by. And they didn't have for those all of the solid state electoral connections for the firing operations like the jets had. Some of the things had to be soldered as part of making it work for that kind of aircraft. When you do this (Galyean bounces in his seat) to soldered electrical wires, sometimes they become disconnected. And so occasionally what would happen is it would get disconnected and when they would try to fire a rocket, it wouldn't fire. So there was a procedure that we would do when that happened—'cause it would happen from time to time. You'd take that—that Cobra would fly to the nearest Air Force base, where they always had a place that you could, at the Air Force base, that you could land, you could hover over to and sit down, and they would remove the—they had the ability to remove that pod and then disarm it so nobody accidentally got hurt. And so we had this—I got this call that a—one of the Cobras for one of our troops that had been working up north along the beach area had had a misfire on one of these rockets. And that the rocket had hit on the beach near where a little boy was playing, and he got some injury to his leg. So I scrambled a Huey to go out there and pick him up and his mother and take him to the—we were near Qui Nhon at that point—to the hospital at Qui Nhon to tend to his injury. Well this was a couple of years after an incident that happened at a place called My Lai, where an infantry Lieutenant had allowed his unit to shoot up some civilians in a village and they couldn't without really identifying for sure that they were the enemy. And as a result of that incident with this Lieutenant Calley (Lieutenant William Calley) and My Lai, there was a standing order, like the military does from time to time, where somebody screws up, they go to the leaders above that to try to analyze what could that higher leader have done to prepare for—to make sure it doesn't happen again. Did he chastise 'em for not having done whatever they felt they should have done? But at that point in time, then there became a standing order that if there was a civilian casualty as a result of our operation, there would be investigated to make sure as to whether or not it was intentional or whether it was accidental. So I get this call to take, to go investigate—and it just so happened we had in our headquarters at that time, what we call the Kit Carson Scout, that was an NVA (North Vietnamese Army) First Lieutenant who had defected. And as a matter of fact, he'd worked with my platoon on the ground, so I was very familiar with him 'cause I'd been on the ground with him in operations. And so I took this—and we went over to the hospital, which was only less than a half-hour drive in a Jeep. So we went over there to interview the mother. And when we got there and the mother found out why we were there, her comment was, "I know it was a mistake, I know it was an accident, don't chastise the pilot because he might get mad and not come back to help protect us from the Vietcong." So I thought that was kind of a unique experience. 00:45:30.755 --> 00:45:35.355 Was there something that you did for good luck while you were in Vietnam? 00:45:35.355 --> 00:45:40.684 Prayed a lot. 00:45:40.684 --> 00:45:46.885 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:45:46.885 --> 00:48:42.355 Well, when we were off, like on the days we didn't fly for summer or on the Sundays, we'd relax, play music. Because Saturdays—because Sundays were always a down day for maintenance—we would usually on Saturday nights—and on Sundays were usually the day that we had new guys coming in and the old guys going out. When you arrived, you knew if you were living at the end of your tour, the day you already knew when you were going home. And so it was always on Sundays—so we had people leaving and more people coming in. So we had kind of a situation where, what we used to do is if you were one of the one or two or three of the officers who were—or pilots—who were gonna be leaving the follow a week after that, you would throw a party for the guys who were leaving the next day. And so what would you do? You get drunk, and you just have a party. (Galyean laughs) I had kind of a funny situation if we were able to do. Because of when I was in the 501st Supply Transport Battalion, the guy who was the commanding officer of the food distribution for the First Armored Division and I were good friends, because we were in the same battalion, and he had just happened to be responsible for the food distribution for the Army in Qui Nhon in the area that we were. And I was able to call him, and—because he was so close—and he got us a couple of cases of steaks for our party. And that morning—that Saturday morning, since we were able to—we were near a place called Tuy Hoa where there were lobster boats that came in every morning. We flew out and landed on the beach, and our Mess Sergeant went with us with, and we got a bunch of live lobsters that he took back and immediately put in a boiling pot, 'cause they had to be boiled while they were alive. So we—our party that night had steak and lobster (Galyean laughs). But I mean, that was the kind of things you did for recreation, and that was about it in our unit. 00:48:42.355 --> 00:48:52.054 What kind of friendships and camaraderie did you form while serving and with whom? 00:48:52.054 --> 00:49:43.304 Every single one of my infantrymen and the pilots I knew, we were like brothers. There was never any problem when we would have a scout go down and we weren't sure the condition. I had infantrymen volunteering at any time to repel down there to help 'em and help get 'em out. You know, Jason. You're brothers. So— 00:49:43.304 --> 00:49:51.844 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:49:51.844 --> 00:50:30.425 Um—(Galyean laughs)—you really didn't have much time. While I was in Vietnam, I'd write a letter to my wife frequently. But after that, yes. I from time to time have kept in touch with some of the guys, as I have with some of the guys that I was visiting who were burned from that fire when I was in the forest service. But yeah. 00:50:30.425 --> 00:50:39.594 So now we're coming towards your end of service. Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:50:39.594 --> 00:50:43.505 Fort Hood, Texas. And yes, I do remember (Galyean laughs). 00:50:43.505 --> 00:50:47.005 Did you return home or where did you go? 00:50:47.005 --> 00:53:55.625 From there, my wife's parents at the time had moved from the Escondido area. They lived in Brawley. He had a car dealership then, down there. So I went to—we drove back across the—from Fort Hood, Texas to their place. First I picked up a newspaper. I was scheduled to go to law school. So when I got out it was April, and I was scheduled to start law school in the fall. And I just happened to pick up a newspaper and there was an advertisement for somebody at the—to work at the county of Imperial as—and they wanted a vet. And it was because the government, as it turned out, had just passed a law. It was something they called the PEP program, which was a program for—public employment program—for Vietnam vets. And what they were trying to do is get state and local governments to come up with jobs for vets that were coming out of the Vietnam War now, because now we're standing down. We're getting outta Vietnam. And so it just so happened they needed somebody to administer the beginning of their program so—for the county of Imperial. So they hired me as a personnel analyst to go to Sacramento for a weekend to help figure out the rules of how this was gonna work and then start the plan and program for the county of Imperial. So then I was going around to school districts and different city governments and everything, trying to get them to come up with a job, and then the government would pay half of the salary with the idea they would do that for the first year, and then hopefully the public employer would continue in the future. And so I did that from the time that I got out of the Army for the county of Imperial for basically five months until law school started for me in San Diego. 00:53:55.625 --> 00:54:02.275 How were you received by your family and community when you returned back from Vietnam? 00:54:02.275 --> 00:55:00.675 Well, well frankly, because my family was always very supportive, and of course then I was at Fort Hood, so I mean—and when I was in law school, which was—and working for the PEP program and then in law school—I was well received. The only thing that was kind of a real bummer was the other pilot in my unit that had been a Navy Marine F-4 pilot evidently had PTSD so bad that on our contracts final, at the end of the first year, he stuck his head in an oven and killed himself. 00:55:00.675 --> 00:55:06.005 How did you readjust to civilian life? You said you went back to law school? 00:55:06.005 --> 00:56:50.824 Yeah, I went to law school, and let's just say I was highly motivated (laughs). I really worked. And my wife's father had always been a car dealer, and she had while she was in high school worked as an accountant for him—'cause there's a—it's a—car dealerships have an incredibly complex accounting system, particularly since they gotta have parts for just every kind of car, you know,? If you're a Ford, you gotta be able to repair GM, Chrysler, et cetera. So you got a complete inventory and financial accounting for the different parts sections. And she had did that when she was in high school for her dad. So she had no problem while we were, while I was in law school in San Diego. The first car dealership she walked into hired her on the spot to do accounting for them for parts. And so she had no problem adapting really, really quickly, 'cause she got a job doing exactly what she had done while she was in high school and what she did somewhat while I was in Vietnam for her dad. They lived—she lived with her parents. She and my son lived with her parents while I was in Vietnam. 00:56:50.824 --> 00:56:56.000 Did you join any veterans organizations after you returned home? 00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:58.000 Yeah, I did. Eventually when they came up with this Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association, I joined that and went to their convention when it was in San Diego and participated in a couple of activities that they had and was involved in the writing of the history of the 7-17th CAV, because it turned out the guy that replaced me in Vietnam was the one who did all the work to get all of the after-action reports from all of the different units and generated this history. And then he would send it to people before the last edition was published to be able to add to it what their old personal recollections were. So I worked on that with him, but that was about it. 00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:09.585 So we're moving on to reflections. How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:58:09.585 --> 00:59:43.315 My faith. I think it was a godsend that I was—I survived. And my wife, she was—she's the angel of my life. And she's a very spiritual person. I think it—particularly through what I've been going through—appreciate what veterans have gone through since then. And it's—I cannot fathom that there are very many veterans that have seen the things that most veterans who are part of the point of the sword in any of these war activities wouldn't have to some degree some PTSD—would just be human. I'm sure you know. 00:59:43.315 --> 00:59:53.905 What are some life lessons you learned from military service? 00:59:53.905 --> 01:00:21.114 Always do your best and have faith that the Lord's will will be presumed—will occur—if you give it a chance—if you follow your heart. 01:00:21.114 --> 01:00:33.414 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 01:00:33.414 --> 01:01:13.934 I've spent the rest of my life as an attorney. I would say without a doubt, this constitutional system that we have is probably the best governments—governance—system there is, and it's worth defending. 01:01:13.934 --> 01:01:21.184 How did you become associated with the San Diego North County region? 01:01:21.184 --> 01:03:28.000 Well, I grew up in San Marcos on a chicken farm. My dad had a chicken hatchery. And so it wasn't hard when you've been places like Fort Polk, Louisiana ; Fort Rucker, Alabama ; Fort Hood, Texas ; to come home and realize that San Diego County is a good place to come home to. So that's why my wife and I knew that's where we wanted to come back to. Same reason my dad, when he was—my dad settled ultimately in San Marcos because if you ever read John Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, my father and his uncle and cousins, when they lost or were losing their little walnut ranch in Arkansas, came out and were traveling all over picking crops and doing that. And when they got to San Marcos, a guy gave him a job at that point, and he decided, This is where I want to live. And this is where he—so that's—it was a guy's name, was Fred Williams. Fred Williams had a square dance barn, he had the first gas station, and he gave my dad a job there. He had these four little cottages that were adobe cottages. My dad got his mother and three younger siblings here. And we never—he never left and we never left. We came back, as did all of my siblings. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:44.864 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. In conclusion, is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 01:03:44.864 --> 01:04:01.554 No, I think I've probably just about hit—I mean, like I say, all you gotta do is see those two—see that one—those two movies, and you'll understand exactly what I'm talking about. 01:04:01.554 --> 01:04:10.485 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 01:04:10.485 --> 01:05:09.905 There just good, ordinary, responsible people. And they've experienced some things that I think give them an understanding of what our society is worth and what it means to be a part of a brotherhood. They experienced it. 01:05:09.905 --> 01:05:16.914 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 01:05:16.914 --> 01:05:29.000 Love life. Love what you're doing, do what you love, and do it the best that you can. 01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:32.704 Thank you for your time today. 01:05:32.704 --> 01:05:34.204 You got it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Galyean, Thomas. Interview November 12th, 2024.
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Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He served with the 7-17th CAV as commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft. Galyean then served as an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters, ensuring that aircraft received their assignments. Raised on his family’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California, Galyean narrates his family history, his decision to join the U.S. Army, and his interest in helicopter flight. Galyean describes his experience in flight school, including reflections on media representations of military training and the Vietnam War. Galyean describes his unique role while serving stateside, forming a military response team to suppress riots in the wake of the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Galyean meditates on the impact of controversial topics, such as the My Lai massacre, civilian casualties, and the rules of engagement. Galyean reflects on religion, comradery, family, and how the military changed his life.
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SC027-071
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2024-11-12
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video
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Thomas Galyean
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Jason Beyer
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United States. Army—Veterans
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Poultry farms
United States. Forest Service
El Cariso Hotshots (Calif.)
Reserve Officers' Training Corps
San Marcos High School (San Marcos, Calif.)
University of California, Los Angeles
Loop Fire, Calif., 1966
Air pilots—Training of
Fort Wolters (Tex.)
Fort Knox (Ky.)
Bell AH-1 Cobra (Attack helicopter)
Phan Rang (Vietnam)
Bearcat (Vietnam)
Napalm
Fort Rucker (Ala.)
Fort Hood (Tex.)
Democratic National Convention (1968 : Chicago, Ill.)
Gray Air Force Base (Tex.)
Ground-controlled approach (Aeronautics)
Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association
United States. Army. 7th Cavalry Regiment
University of Virginia
My Lai Massacre, Vietnam, 1968
Legal education—United States
Lawyers
Fort Polk (La.)
Ho Chi Minh Trail (Vietnam)
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San Diego (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Texas
California
Kentucky
Vietnam
Tây Nguyên (Vietnam)
Vietnam (Republic : 1954-1975)
Laos
Cambodia
Chicago (Ill.)
Brownsville (Tex.)
Brawley (Calif.)
Escondido (Calif.)
Imperial County (Calif.)
Sacramento (Calif.)
Louisiana
Alabama
Arkansas
Pleiku (Vietnam)
Phan Rang (Vietnam)
Biên Hòa (Vietnam)
Qui Nhon (Vietnam)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
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Thomas Galyean
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
Is Part Of
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San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Community history
San Diego Veterans History
Veteran experience
-
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Title
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Oral Histories
Description
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Jason Beyer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dora Beacham
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.xml
Interview Keyword
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Veteran;California State University San Marcos;United States Marine Corps;Master Sergeant;Operation Enduring Freedom;Camp Fallujah;Iraq
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6.0 Beacham, Dora. Interview November 1st, 2024 SC027-069 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; California State University San Marcos ; United States Marine Corps ; Master Sergeant ; Operation Enduring Freedom ; Camp Fallujah ; Iraq Dora Beacham Jason Beyer Moving image BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/45e2396211b4ed28f7ed29a6dc245346.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 66 Personal Background Dora Ann Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom and reached her highest rank of Master Sergeant E8. She was born in Hondo, Texas. United States Marine Corps ; Master Sergeant ; E8 ; Operation Enduring Freedom ; Hondo (Tex.) ; Army ; babysitting 0 120 Military Enlistment Beacham says she chose to enlist in the U.S. Marine Corps because she was impressed by the uniforms of the service members’ who visited her junior high school. United States Marine Corps ; G.I. Joe ; school ; uniform ; junior high 0 169 Basic Training and First Assignment Beacham completed her basic training at Parris Island, South Carolina. She then went to Norfolk, Virginia for MOS 0411 logistics. She recalls excelling at the male obstacle course during field training. One of her least favorite experiences was taking off her flak jacket after hikes. Her first assignment was Combat Service Support Group 1 at Twentynine Palms, California. There she spent lots of time training in the desert with weapons, vehicles, and equipment. basic training ; Parris Island ; South Carolina ; MOS ; Military Occupational Specialty ; logistics ; Norfolk (Va.) ; bootcamp ; O course ; obstacle course ; field training ; hike ; flak jacket ; Twentynine Palms (Calif.) ; SAW ; M249 Squad Automatic Weapon ; 50 cal. ; M203 grenade launcher ; drill instructor ; Humvee ; grenade ; uniformed victim advocate ; sexual assault 0 412 Promotions Beacham was promoted to Corporal meritoriously. She then picked up Gunnery Sergeant while on recruiting as a Staff Sergeant. She finally reached Master Sergeant while at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. promotion ; Master Sergeant ; Corporal ; meritorious ; Staff Sergeant ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Advanced Infantry Training Battalion ; Marine Corps 0 467 Adapting to Military Life Although many people say bootcamp was the hardest part of adapting to the military lifestyle, Beacham says it was harder after bootcamp because you have to make your own decisions. She says being away from home became easy after a while. bootcamp ; Marine Corps ; home 0 514 Interactions with People During Stateside Service People often made comments about Beacham’s short height of 4’11” and were surprised to learn that she was a Marine. She says that most people showed her respect and thanked her for her service. Marine ; service 0 546 Wartime Service in Iraq for Operation Enduring Freedom Beacham was stationed in Camp Fallujah, Iraq, from January to August of 2004 as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. She worked tireless hours to provide support to individuals and Marines. Operation Enduring Freedom ; Camp Fallujah ; Iraq ; support ; Marines 0 601 Interactions with Local Cultures While Deployed Beacham says she learned a lot and had positive interactions with local cultures during her deployment. cultures ; music ; traditions ; values ; career 0 633 Combat Service Support Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She says her field training helped prepare her for Iraq. Combat Service Support Group 1 ; training ; deploying ; 11th Marine Regiment ; single ; desert ; Iraq 0 693 Friendships and Comradery Beacham formed many strong relationships. Working logistics helped her make connections with people in different roles. One of her most valuable experiences was with the Marines at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion, where there were few women there. Beacham had to learn what they did and do all their logistics. friendship ; comradery ; relationship ; logistics ; supply ; inspection ; MOS ; Marines ; Advanced Infantry Training Battalion ; infantry ; females ; training 0 760 Communication with Family and Friends While Deployed in Iraq Beacham kept in touch with family and friends through email and phone calls. She communicated often with her husband and mother. family ; friends ; communication ; emails ; phone calls ; married ; son ; husband ; mother 0 796 Recreation in the Service While off-duty, Beacham would take walks around the perimeter to make sure everyone stayed safe. For recreation, she watched recorded DVDs, including lots of CSI. She also recalls being at the gym. She says it was funny watching people teach each other how to work out. recreation ; walking ; daylight ; evening ; DVDs ; CSI ; humorous ; Iraq ; runners ; gym ; working out 0 878 About Good Luck Beacham says everything happens for a reason, so she would not have any good luck if she did not have bad luck. luck ; good luck ; bad luck 0 912 End of Military Service Beacham recalls the ceremony held at Camp Pendleton to celebrate her end of military service. She reflected on the significance of her retirement given her personal background. end of service ; Camp Pendleton ; California ; Marine Corps ; retire 0 964 Living in California Beacham and her husband decided to stay in California where her son was already in school. She still visits her family often. home ; husband ; son ; school ; California ; family 0 994 Family, Community, School, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Beacham’s family respects her and often turns to her for support. After retirement, she has spent much of her time doing school and traveling for her son’s athletics. She says the community and lack of structure helped her decompress after years of military service. Her time in school helped her pursue a career as a social worker supporting veterans. family ; community ; Marine Corps ; respectful ; civilian life ; son ; teenage ; boys ; soccer ; mom ; school ; traveling ; Marines ; mindfulness ; empathy ; psychology ; social worker 0 1096 Experience with the G.I. Bill The G.I. Bill was important for Beacham because it gave her an opportunity to get an education and decide who she wanted to be. G.I. Bill ; school ; psychology ; social work ; opportunities ; military 0 1160 Keeping Friendships After Military Service and Joining Veterans Organizations Beacham still keeps friendships. She stays connected mostly through email and phone calls because many people returned home after service. friendships ; Texas ; Idaho ; New York ; Cal State ; California ; email ; phone calls ; veterans organization ; San Marcos (Calif.) 0 1210 How Military Service Changed Beacham's Life As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflects on the limited opportunities she had. Her military service helped her get an education, achieve financial security, and build wealth for future generations. Beacham thinks the values she learned as a Marine have guided her in life, and she has passed those values onto younger family members. reflection ; service ; life ; community ; faith ; family ; Hispanic ; female ; opportunities ; education ; financial security ; pension ; generational wealth ; children ; Marine Corps ; school ; Chapter 35 ; ID card ; commissary ; nieces 0 1355 Life Lessons from Military Service Military service taught Beacham about the powerful impact that an individual can have on somebody else. She saw how the people she influenced would influence others. life lessons ; military service ; Marine Corps ; deployment 0 1451 Message for Future Generations Beacham reflects on how her gender, ethnicity, and race have shaped her identity and who she represents. She wants future generations to know that they can be successful. She believes that her experience in the Marine Corps made her an all-around better person. message ; future generations ; gender ; ethnicity ; race ; background ; Marine Corps ; successful ; family ; children ; grandchildren ; determination ; cultures ; male ; diversity ; mother ; student ; instructor 0 1586 Association with the Campus Community of CSU San Marcos Beacham became associated with the CSUSM campus community through the interviewer, Jason Beyer. She met veterans who help other veterans, which inspired her career as a social worker supporting veterans. CSUSM ; campus community ; community ; service members ; veterans ; Veterans Affairs ; VA ; benefits 0 1661 Bootcamp Story Beacham shares a story from bootcamp. She was nominated “Molly Marine” by her platoon for being the most engaged, supportive, and motivated. bootcamp ; Marine Corps ; awards ; PFT ; Physical Fitness Test ; sharpshooter ; highest shooter ; Molly Marine ; vote ; platoon ; chow hall ; drill instructor ; recruit 0 1772 What More People Should Know About Veterans Beacham wishes more people knew that veterans need assistance, even if sometimes they do not seek it. Veterans may be strong and independent, but they are also vulnerable. veterans ; vulnerable ; assistance ; support ; independent 0 1809 Lesson Learned from Military Experience—Keep a Journal Beacham wishes she had kept a journal while in the service. Although she has plenty of photos and folders, there are many experiences she never wrote down. lessons ; journal ; military experience ; photos ; pictures ; folders ; SPIE rigging ; Special Patrol Insertion/Extraction ; helicopter ; infantrymen ; boat 0 Oral history Master Sergeant Dora Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom. Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She was deployed to Camp Fallujah, Iraq from January to August of 2004. As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflected on how military service shaped her life and provided important opportunities. In this oral history interview, she described her family, education, and life lessons from military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.084 --> 00:01:06.594 My name is Jason Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University of San Marcos. Today I will be doing an oral history and interviewing Dora Ann Beacham. Today's date is November 1, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library of CSUSM at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92069. I am a Marine Corps veteran and graduate of Cal State San Marcos, along with the interviewee, Dora Beacham. Today there are people attending—myself, the interviewee, Adel Bautista is the camera operator, and Marilyn Huerta. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your first, middle, and last name, branch of service, highest rank attained, and the war or conflict you served in. 00:01:06.594 --> 00:01:23.594 Good morning, Jason. My name is Dora Ann Beacham. (Redacted.) I served in the United States Marine Corps. My highest rank was Master Sergeant E8, and I served in the Operation Enduring Freedom. 00:01:23.594 --> 00:01:30.465 Thank you, Dora. So we'll begin with some biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:30.465 --> 00:01:33.344 I was born in Hondo, Texas. 00:01:33.344 --> 00:01:37.355 Does your family have any past military affiliations with the military? 00:01:37.355 --> 00:01:48.015 I had two uncles at the time that were in the Marine Corps—well, one of 'em was in the Marine Corps, the other one was in the Army. And those were the only people that served or family members that served at the time. 00:01:48.015 --> 00:01:53.064 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:53.064 --> 00:02:00.545 I held jobs as far as like babysitting, but no actual formal employments. 00:02:00.545 --> 00:02:08.495 When and why did you choose to join the military? And where were you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:08.495 --> 00:02:30.115 I actually enlisted in the Marine Corps, and the reason that I've always said that I joined the Marine Corps was since I was in junior high, I used to like to play with the G.I. Joe, little miniature (laughs) toys that I had. And that's the reason I joined. But also once I went to talk to a recruiter, it was more about getting an education. 00:02:30.115 --> 00:02:31.835 And which branch did you enter? 00:02:31.835 --> 00:02:33.194 It was the United States Marine Corps. 00:02:33.194 --> 00:02:35.715 And why did you choose that branch? 00:02:35.715 --> 00:02:49.835 The reason I chose it—I have to honestly say when they came into the school, it was the uniform. I mean, I think everybody says that it's the uniform looked so crisp and clean and that was my main reason. 00:02:49.835 --> 00:02:56.664 So for your early days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:02:56.664 --> 00:02:59.004 So prior to the Marine Corps, you're asking? 00:02:59.004 --> 00:03:04.645 Once you went to basic training—well, let's start off. Where did you go to basic training at? 00:03:04.645 --> 00:03:07.465 I went to South Carolina, Parris Island. 00:03:07.465 --> 00:03:13.164 And from Paris Island, what MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) school or training did you have after that? 00:03:13.164 --> 00:03:19.485 I had—my MOS was 0411 logistics, and I was in Norfolk, Virginia. 00:03:19.485 --> 00:03:27.185 What is the most vivid memory, both best and worst parts of your time training or in school? 00:03:27.185 --> 00:04:25.845 Let's see. So I remember it was probably—I would say it is my best. The bootcamp one stands out to me only because I'm, you know, four-foot 11'' and we had to go do the O course (obstacle course), but we did the male's O course 'cause it was during our field training. And I remember the drill instructors telling us, "Hey, so this is how you're gonna do it." So they'd put a recruit on the bottom and you'd step on their back and you'd try to jump up. And of course it was my turn. So I was just being me and determined. So I just hit the wall and jumped over and I didn't need nobody. So after that they took it away. So it was actually the best moment for me, but probably not the girls behind me. So, that was probably my best. As far as the worst, I would have to say, even though I finished my hikes, those are probably the worst 'cause you'd end up at the very end taking off your flak jacket. And once you take off your flak jacket, your back is just like crumbling. But that would probably be the worst. It's just at the very end. 00:04:25.845 --> 00:04:29.035 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:04:29.035 --> 00:05:11.035 My first duty station—and I say it tricked me because I went to Twentynine Palms. It was Combat Service Support Group 1. And during that timeframe, coming straight from bootcamp and doing all that training, going straight to Twentynine Palms, we spent a lot of time in the desert, right in the field. And I was able to—I wouldn't say play with dynamite, but we were able to use dynamite, right? And the M203 grenade launcher, the SAW (M249 Squad Automatic Weapon), the 50 cal.—and this is all we did when we were there in Twentynine Palms is the field time, field time, field time. So, it kind of tricked me because I thought that's all I was gonna do the rest of the time, but it wasn't (laughs). 00:05:11.035 --> 00:05:17.334 Did you recall your instructors while you were at Twentynine Palms? If so, what were they like? 00:05:17.334 --> 00:05:35.925 I don't recall my instructors from Twentynine Palms. I do remember my drill instructors that were there, and that was Sergeant Wilson was our senior, Sergeant Rackey, and then Sergeant Shepherd. 00:05:35.925 --> 00:05:48.014 Do you qualify—did you qualify with equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, weapons? If yes, what was training with that equipment like? 00:05:48.014 --> 00:06:52.675 I think one of the trainings I got was driving a Humvee. That was interesting, being short, but I was able to do that. Obviously I trained with a lot of different weapons when I was in Twentynine Palms. The one that stands out to me the most was the M203 grenade launcher, simply because you put it on your shoulder and the first time it goes off, you're like, Oh my God, that hurt. The second time is worse. So I remember that. I remember training with grenades and having the instructors—if it was too close, they'd like, tackle you and throw you on the ground once you threw it. So I remember those incidents. Other than that, the trainings I went to, instructors training were—I was trained on giving classes and I was also trained on uniformed victim advocate, which was actually servicing service members who were sexually assaulted or any type of victims in that manner for military members. Those are the ones that I recall off the top of my head. 00:06:52.675 --> 00:06:57.524 Did you receive any promotions and could you tell me about them? 00:06:57.524 --> 00:07:47.485 Yes. I received promotions all the way up to Master Sergeant. The one that stands out to me the most at the beginning was Corporal because I got that meritoriously. So to me that was pretty awesome. After that, I got promoted. The other one that stands out to me as being on recruiting as a Staff Sergeant, and I picked up Gunny (Gunnery Sergeant) when I was out there. And the joke was, wow, as soon as the message board came out—my certificate was right after that—is they'd make a joke 'cause I was getting promoted first. And then of course Master Sergeant, that was my favorite promotion and that was because I received it when I was at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. And that was by far the most probably fun but also learning experience that I had in my Marine Corps career. 00:07:47.485 --> 00:07:56.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? Why do you think it was? 00:07:56.105 --> 00:08:34.784 I would have to go back to—not bootcamp. Bootcamp wasn't the hardest, that's what I always heard—but I would have to say that after bootcamp was probably the hardest, when you first start. 'Cause you're so used to getting instructions on what to do. And once you join the Marine Corps, it's like nobody's telling you what to do. You have to make your own decisions. So whether you fall or you succeed, it's on you. So that would probably be the hardest. As far as the easiest, I think being away from home started off being hard, but the more time I served it was probably the easiest part is being away from home. 00:08:34.784 --> 00:08:41.075 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:08:41.075 --> 00:09:06.183 One of the most popular or most eventful I guess one I'd hear was I'd tell somebody I was a Marine and they would kind of like, "You're a Marine?" I'm four-foot 11,'' so being—and petite—so people would always think like, "You're a Marine?" They couldn't believe it. But I think majority of the people that did see me, they always showed me respect and thanked me for my service. That was greatly appreciated. Those were the most common remarks. 00:09:06.183 --> 00:09:14.683 So now we're going to get into wartime service if it's applicable. What wartime conflicts were you a part of? 00:09:14.683 --> 00:09:23.125 I served under Operation Enduring Freedom. I was stationed in Camp Fallujah. 00:09:23.125 --> 00:09:25.174 And that's where, Camp Fallujah? 00:09:25.174 --> 00:09:26.815 Iraq. 00:09:26.815 --> 00:09:29.000 What are your recollections of that experience? 00:09:29.000 --> 00:10:01.195 It was from January 2004 to August of 2004. I would say that it was a lot of hours of working, and we provided a lot of support to the people that—to the individuals and Marines that were out there. A lot of needed support. And so even though we worked tireless hours, I believe it was worth it to make sure that it was for the safety of the Marines that were out there. 00:10:01.195 --> 00:10:07.445 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during deployment? 00:10:07.445 --> 00:10:33.154 The different cultures that I encountered, I think were all positive. I learned a lot, whether it was foods or different music that everybody listened to. Maybe different traditions—and of course values. So I think it was just something positive that I learned throughout my career, interacting and engaging with people of different cultures. 00:10:33.154 --> 00:10:42.565 Were you in combat, combat support, or combat service support roles? Or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant for you? 00:10:42.565 --> 00:11:33.475 No, I—like I said at the beginning, I was at Combat Service Support Group 1 and we did a lot of training out in the field. It was all about deploying and being in the field and preparing me. I also was with the 11th Marine Regiment. We were always in the field then, too. I was the lucky one. I think I was single till I was 29. And so I was—people might think it was a bad thing, but I thought it was a great thing that I was always picked first because I was single, so it was easier to send me. So I spent a lot of time learning a lot of the idea of being or actually training in the field in the desert, which prepared me, I think for Iraq—being out there in the heat and being away from everybody and living in tents and just transitioning from tent to building if necessary. So I think a lot of that prepared me for being out there. 00:11:33.475 --> 00:11:42.485 What kinds of friendships and comradery did you form while serving and with whom? 00:11:42.485 --> 00:12:40.044 I gained a lot of relationships, not only with the peers that were in my job but also that were connected to my job. Since I did logistics, I worked a lot with supply. I had a lot of relationships there. Different inspection teams would come out and inspect us, so I gained relationships, and I was taught a lot about our own MOS. One of the most valuable experiences and teachings that I learned—and interactions—was with—having relationships with Marines that were at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. It was mainly infantry, and there was just a few females there that you could probably count on one hand that were there. And I learned a lot as far as what they do, what they train, and what's needed. I did it—I did all their logistics for them. So it was important to know that they need all those supplies in order to train before they can even deploy it. 00:12:40.044 --> 00:12:47.683 How did you stay in touch with your family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed in Iraq? 00:12:47.683 --> 00:13:16.644 So I did a lot of interactions through the computer. I sent a lot of emails. We were able to make phone calls, so every so often I would be able to make a phone call home. I—at the time I was married and my son was only nine months old, so I was able to communicate with my husband a lot—not with him so much 'cause, you know, he really didn't talk—and with my mother. I think I communicated with her at least once a week to make sure she knew that I was safe. 00:13:16.644 --> 00:13:21.924 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty in Iraq? 00:13:21.924 --> 00:13:55.575 I would say the few times that I was off—well, we were off probably daily for a little bit, whether it was lunch or in the evening before we walked back to our quarters. And I did walking, like, within the wall to make sure that we stayed safe, unless they otherwise stated not to. And it was usually during daylight. During the evening it was a little bit more difficult. So, I would say walking. And I watched a lot of DVDs—recorded DVDs—at night, of CSI (laughs). 00:13:55.575 --> 00:14:01.914 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while deployed in Iraq? 00:14:01.914 --> 00:14:38.315 Um, humorous—I would say being at the gym was probably the most humorous because you had everybody that used to run and stuff like that that wasn't able to would be in the gym working out. So you—the interesting and the funny part is watching everybody that wasn't used to and not knowing how were in there, learning how to work out. 'Cause you know, there were more runners but the gym people actually knew what they were doing and they would show us—Hey, this is how you work this body part. So I would think that was probably the funniest. 00:14:38.315 --> 00:14:45.034 Was there something that you did personally for good luck while deployed in Iraq? 00:14:45.034 --> 00:15:12.445 I wouldn't say that it has to do with Iraq, I would think general in my life, I've always said if it wasn't for bad luck, I would have no luck. So I've always believed in turning my bad luck into something. I believe things happen for a reason. So to me, if it looked like bad luck, it wasn't. It was meant to be and it's gonna turn out later on as something good. There's a reason why that occurred. So even though it could be considered bad luck, it was always my good luck. 00:15:12.445 --> 00:15:24.085 Now we're moving towards the end of service. Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you, and when was your service ended? 00:15:24.085 --> 00:16:04.894 Well, on my last day—I say physical because the actual last day was at home because you take vacation. But on my last physical date, I had my big ceremony, something that I had been waiting for for years. I was on Camp Pendleton, California, on the green grassy lawn that's out there. I had the band come out and play. And I would tell you it—what I remember, it was a day full of gratitude and proud moments of being able to accomplish it. You know, I wasn't—I didn't just join the Marine Corps. I was able to retire, which says a lot for myself and where my background of where I came from. 00:16:04.894 --> 00:16:11.495 Did you return home after service or were you—where were you and where did you go? 00:16:11.495 --> 00:16:34.075 So, we had actually established a home, my husband and I, in California. My son was in school so we decided to stay. However, I did return home and visit family. And I still do—I still return and see them. But we thought it was important to keep our family here in California and have my son continue in the school he was in. 00:16:34.075 --> 00:16:41.174 How were you received by your family and community once you completed your time in the Marine Corps? 00:16:41.174 --> 00:17:07.605 I would say what I've noticed as far—with my family—is they're very accepting, respectful of me, my time and service. In fact, if ever they need something, I'm the person they call. They believe that I'm the person that is gonna find the answer. "She'll find it, she'll figure it out." They have so much confidence that anything they need that I can just look it up or read or learn about it and it'll be there (laughs). 00:17:07.605 --> 00:17:15.845 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or did you go back to school? 00:17:15.845 --> 00:18:16.993 I took a month off is probably what I recall—I don't think I've stopped since then—to join—basically my son played soccer and I was the soccer traveling mom for a bunch of boys age seven to 17 basically. And I traveled all around the states and a couple of countries. I actually joined—started school in August after I retired, which is just a few months afterwards. And I believe that doing that—traveling and meeting different people and having a different type of non-structured life—helped me adjust into the community area, which I think all Marines need, right? We need to like decompress a little bit. And it actually helped, you know, running around with a bunch of teenage boys playing soccer and helping them out. And also I learned a lot at school. You know, I learned mindfulness. I learned empathy and stuff, and psychology, and as far as being a social worker, and I think that helped me a lot—readjust to the community. 00:18:16.993 --> 00:18:20.115 Did the G.I. Bill affect you? 00:18:20.115 --> 00:19:20.394 Oh wow. The G.I. Bill has had like an enormous—it played an enormous amount in my life. Not only was I able to go to school. I think that the G.I. Bill helped me by going to school and learning the different psychology parts and social work parts. It helped me align with the fact of what I wanted to be. Growing up I didn't have that many opportunities. So the option was the military, right? 'Cause we didn't have money to go to school or other things—any type of professional career. So it kind of linked with, you know, what I learned at school to what I wanted to become. And what it taught me was, Hey, I didn't have opportunities, but I took what was available. And there's individuals that may not join the military, but they don't have—they're not aware of other opportunities. And I think the G.I. Bill helped me learn that I wanna help others have other opportunities in whichever manner or whichever path they wanna take. 00:19:20.394 --> 00:19:26.125 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:19:26.125 --> 00:19:54.875 Well, I have plenty of friendships that I keep. They're mainly online because, like you asked, did I go back home? No. But a lot of other individuals that were my friends and colleagues, they did go home. They did go back to Texas or Idaho or New York or wherever it was that they were originally from. And I stayed up in Cal State and California. And there are a few here that I still are in communication with, but mainly through like email and phone calls. 00:19:54.875 --> 00:19:57.434 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:19:57.434 --> 00:20:10.025 Yes, I did. I joined the veterans organization here in San Marcos. And I think that was it. I think that's the only organizations that I've joined so far. 00:20:10.025 --> 00:20:21.855 How was—so now we're moving on to reflections. How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:20:21.855 --> 00:22:35.944 I would have to say, if I start with me being a Hispanic female from a small town who didn't, like I said, didn't have many opportunities, I'm able to have better opportunities for education, financial security. I could tell you that the—my pension that I get actually helped me establish a foundation for the next generation. You know, we talk about generational wealth, and I think it starts with me. And, you know, I'm able to provide that for my son and then hope for his children, right? So I think that's the financial security. But not only that, the Marine Corps brought a lot of structure and values and stuff that you take in and you utilize not only in service but afterwards, whether it is education or whether it is a career path. And I think it provided a lot of value that has made me who I am, who I've become. As far as from my family, like I said, it's—my son has more opportunities than I had. He's able to attend school, he's able to use Chapter 35, what we have for his education. He used his ID card for many years going to the commissary when we were enlisted. And I believe the values and what I learned in the Marine Corps I was able to push onto him. And he has a lot of respect for others, and he doesn't take stuff for granted. I think it's based off what I learned in the service. And as far as for my family outside of that, I think it showed in the fact that I have two nieces that followed my footsteps into the Marine Corps. And I think what I showed them that they saw when they came to visit me and who I was and what I represented, it helped them say, "Hey, that's what I wanna be, that's what I wanna do." And the same thing for my son. My son didn't take the Marine Corps path, but he's like, "No, I need to be successful like my mom and my father"—'cause we're both military. So I think that's the impact that it had in my life, as far as my family. 00:22:35.944 --> 00:22:40.275 What are some of the life lessons you've learned from your military service? 00:22:40.275 --> 00:24:11.214 Hmm, life lessons. I've thought about this a lot, and I would say the most important life lesson that I got from the Marine Corps was how powerful an impact that an individual can have on somebody else. And in the Marine Corps, I recall so many times that I worked with my Marines—young Marines or even my peers—and, you know, we'd be doing a simple task or doing something to help one of the other companies or anything that we were doing, and I'd always have to tell 'em to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Look at what else is occurring. And they were able to do that, and they would even pass it on to somebody else. "You gotta look at the bigger picture." And I think sometimes they knew what that meant and what I was getting at. But the basis of it is that what you're doing now, the task you're doing now, affects the mission, what we're doing, maybe a deployment, but it also affects what you do in the future, right? Like what you're doing now, whether it's a goal, whether it's school, whether it's a task, learning discipline, right? Grit, right? You know, facing adversity? You take that along with you and it's gonna impact the rest of your life, whether it's in the service, out of service—and who you are, what you become, and how will people look at you. And I would say that that was my biggest learning lesson is that the impact that you have on somebody else could affect, you know, them down the road. 00:24:11.214 --> 00:24:20.025 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 00:24:20.025 --> 00:26:26.075 So I'd have to start off with who I am, who I represent. And it has to be with, you know, gender, ethnicity, race, my background, right? And I would have to say that for someone who's looking at joining the service—I say Marine Corps, but you can join any service—and you are gonna gain so many opportunities to not only be successful, but to be accomplished, right? And I will reiterate, it's not just in service, it's afterwards. You know, how successful you can be in the future. How successful your family can be, your children, your grandchildren, right? So I would tell 'em that when you're thinking about this is, you can do it. Like, it's possible. So stay focused and look at, you know, if I can do it and being, you know, four-foot 11'', I think anybody else can do it with a little bit of hard work and determination. And the other part of the legacy—'cause I can't exclude my counterparts—I have to include everybody else that were male—diversity from gender, race, different ethnicities, different cultures—is that the value you gain from the Marine Corps is important for you to be, as far as a citizen of the United States, what you learn here, the values you gain, the friendships that you learn and engage in, is gonna make you that better person, that better citizen, a better father, a better mother, a better student, a better instructor, right? Because I think we teach people throughout our lifetimes, whether we're in a classroom or not. And I would say to everybody else that it's worth it. So the legacy I would like to leave is that for everybody else is that, "Hey, if you're determined and if you set your mind to do something, you can. You just, you know, gotta push through all the adversity sometimes, and the struggles, but it's doable." 00:26:26.075 --> 00:26:30.894 How did you become associated with the CSUSM campus community? 00:26:30.894 --> 00:27:41.704 I would say, the community that we're working with now, how I normally got associated with is through you, Jason. Like a lot of times, you would bring to light that, Hey, this is going on. And it was awesome to hear that there was somebody that was that dedicated to, you know, bringing some light into other service members with events and opportunities that were out there for them to engage with other veterans, right? And I would say a lot of it was through word of mouth. I mean, you weren't the only one. I mean, you for sure were one of the most important ones in my last two years, but I ran into a lot of veterans that were doing some good work and supporting other veterans, and I think that's why I picked also the career path I'm working with is social work and I am gonna work with the VA (Veterans Affairs) here in a couple of days. And I think working with a lot of veterans at CSUSM, I learned that, hey, service members need support no matter which branch of service it is. And it's important for us to be there for them and provide them with—whether we have more knowledge of the benefits that might be beneficial to them. 00:27:41.704 --> 00:27:56.000 So in conclusion, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:27:56.000 --> 00:29:32.644 Okay, I would say that one of the things that stands out to me was I remember being in bootcamp, and there's a lot of awards you get throughout the Marine Corps and bootcamp. You could get like first class PFT (Physical Fitness Test) or sharpshooter, highest shooter, right? And, one of the things that I recall the most is being a Molly Marine. You get voted by your peers on who was the most motivated and who was the one that was most engaged and supportive. And, by my peers and my platoon, I was chosen that—and the reason I bring that up is 'cause I remember this story and it was like funny. We were at the chow hall, and if anybody can remember being in the Marine Corps and leaving the chow hall, you always had the drill instructors yelling at you and like, "Hurry up, eat," you know? "You're done," you know, "You're done recruit." And I was always pushed on by my drill instructor to go in there and get everybody outta the chow hall. We're done, we need to be finished. So I did, right? You know, here I am yelling, and I'm a recruit. And being little, right? And this drill instructor—male drill instructor—came up to me and was like, got in my face, and of course he looked down, right? 'Cause I'm short. He's like, "What are you doing?" And like, just stopped me. And my drill instructor of course jumped in because you know, he didn't realize that I was doing what she had asked. But it was probably, one of the things that I like never told anybody as far as that's concerned. But I think that was one of the events that led me to being nominated as and picked as Molly Marine because of always being out there yelling, motivating, always being engaged and never like backing down from, you know, a task that was there. 00:29:32.644 --> 00:29:37.134 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:29:37.134 --> 00:30:09.315 I would say that, as much as we've gained a lot of physical and mental toughness, that veterans are vulnerable. Veterans do need assistance and sometimes they may not seek it. Sometimes they will refuse to seek assistance. And it's important to continue to engage and look out for them and interact with them because a lot of them won't seek support because we're so used to being independent and strong—strong-minded, strong-willed. 00:30:09.315 --> 00:30:18.815 So last question. In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:30:18.815 --> 00:31:32.154 I think one of the lessons learned—and if I could tell somebody who's just starting off right now—is get a journal. I have plenty of photos of things I did, but as I was going through this and looking at pictures and going through folders—oh my god, I did a lot. There was so many things that I experienced that I didn't write down. And, you know, 15, 20, 30 years from now—hopefully I'm still alive—I won't be able to recall those, and it would've been nice to know that, hey, yeah, you know what? You were out there SPIE (Special Patrol Insertion/Extraction) rigging at the bottom of a rope on a helicopter, right? With a unit of infantrymen because they're like, "Hey, you wanna join us?" Sure, let's go. Or I was on a raft platoon boat out in the middle of the ocean that isn't usually offered, but because I was ordering specific parts for them and I got them the parts at a certain timely manner they needed it, they asked me to join in. And those are just a couple of the instances that I remember of things that I was able to do. And I probably—well, I wish now that I would've recorded them somewhere so I could recall them later and maybe share those stories. 00:31:32.154 --> 00:31:37.654 Thank you for your time today. This concludes our oral history. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Beacham, Dora. Interview November 1st, 2024
Description
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Master Sergeant Dora Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom. Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She was deployed to Camp Fallujah, Iraq from January to August of 2004. As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflected on how military service shaped her life and provided important opportunities. In this oral history interview, she described her family, education, and life lessons from military service.
Identifier
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SC027-069
Date
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2024-11-01
Format
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video
Creator
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Dora Beacham
Contributor
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Jason Beyer
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
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Dora Beacham
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<p><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><span>https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</span></a></p>
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Is Part Of
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San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Subject
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United States. Marine Corps
United States. Marine Corps—Non-commissioned officers
Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2014
Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island
United States. Marine Corps—Military occupational specialties
Victim advocates
United States. Marine Corps. Advanced Infantry Training Battalion
Educational benefits—United States
Women soldiers
United States. Department of Veterans Affairs
Molly Marine (Symbolic figure)
Hispanic Americans
Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Coverage
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Hondo (Tex.)
South Carolina
Norfolk (Va.)
Twentynine Palms (Calif.)
Iraq
California
Texas
Idaho
New York
San Marcos (Calif.)
Fallujah (Iraq)