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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Julia Friedman
Interviewee
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Leea Pronovost
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml
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Activism (LGBTQ)
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5.4 Oral history of Leea Pronovost, April 8, 2022 SC027-18 1:16:52 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Transgender people -- Civil rights Activism (LGBTQ) Leea Pronovost Julia Friedman mp4 PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.mp4 1:|14(8)|21(14)|30(2)|36(8)|44(3)|54(13)|62(11)|70(6)|77(4)|91(7)|98(1)|104(2)|112(2)|119(11)|127(11)|135(11)|144(1)|155(8)|167(12)|175(1)|181(10)|189(1)|194(8)|201(8)|210(5)|217(6)|227(8)|236(1)|244(11)|252(11)|261(10)|269(2)|276(6)|283(8)|291(14)|299(10)|308(2)|316(11)|324(12)|332(15)|340(3)|345(11)|353(10)|361(7)|367(6)|375(8)|383(1)|390(1)|398(11)|405(14)|417(7)|430(6)|437(7)|444(1)|451(3)|463(2)|473(9)|481(14)|490(11)|500(2)|512(6)|523(11)|534(15)|542(5)|549(13)|558(1)|568(10)|576(1)|582(13)|597(9)|604(6)|611(2)|616(17)|623(6)|631(7)|649(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b85338e1bff43294d1016cc0062ca02f.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and childhood Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Leea Pronovost discusses her experience growing up in a conservative and homophobic household in Springfield, Massachusetts during the 1960s. childhood ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; Springfield (Mass.) ; transgender ; transphobia 309 Time in the Navy Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Leea Pronovost discusses exploring her gender identity through cross-dressing, as well as her time in the Navy, beginning in 1977. Cross-dressing ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; transgender ; transphobia ; United States. Navy 572 Coming out/ Turning towards activism Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Leea Pronovost discusses coming out as a transgender woman in 2006 after a near-death experience. After coming out, Pronovost turns towards activism after noticing the hurdles that transgender people face in terms of access to medical treatment, or lack of protections in the housing or job markets. Activism (LGBTQ) ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender 1098 Activist activities Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbian stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So. Leea Pronovost describes her experiences partnering with a plethora of LGBTQ+ activist organizations. Pronovost collaborated with organizations on the East and West Coasts, in fields and topics such as education, peer support, suicide prevention, prison reform, politics, housing, and gender advocacy. Activism (LGBTQ) ; California. ; Gay-straight alliances in schools ; Greenfield (Mass.) ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; Massachusetts ; New Hampshire ; Oakland (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; PFLAG ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; Transgender Law Center ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Tri Ess (Organization) 3098 Advocating towards inclusivity Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Leea Pronovost discusses her thoughts about inclusivity in society. She hopes that society will become more inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community, but believes that it may take many more decades before society’s acceptance of LGBTQ+ people can happen. She also discusses the Biden administration’s legislative’s initiatives to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Activism (LGBTQ) ; Biden, Joseph R., Jr. ; California ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Vista (Calif.) 3748 West Coast and East Coast LGBTQ+ politics Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Leea Pronovost discusses the similarities and differences between LGBTQ+-related politics on the West and East Coasts. California ; Connecticut River Valley ; Massachusetts ; Menifee (Calif.) ; Northampton (Mass.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Vista (Calif.) 4167 The importance of empowering others / Conclusion of interview Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone, and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Leea Pronovost concludes the interview by summarizing what she has learned throughout her career working as an activist and the importance of intersectionality in LGBTQ+ advocacy. transgender ; transphobia Oral history Leea Pronovost is a transgender activist and has been advocating for transgender and LGBTQ+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Now residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost is a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she works as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chairs the Gender Advocacy Project, and is a grant writer. Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn' ; t exactly a very pleasant childhood, let' ; s put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother' ; s house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written " ; Master." ; And I didn' ; t know that word--I didn' ; t. So, she told me what it was, that it was a " ; Master" ; and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister' ; s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister' ; s name because of what' ; s different than mine. And, uh, it was " ; Miss" ; and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, " ; There' ; s something wrong here." ; And I think, " ; I' ; m supposed to be more like the ' ; Miss.' ; " ; (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that' ; s why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That' ; s one of my earliest memories. After that it didn' ; t get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn' ; t, I ended up joining the Navy. But that' ; s (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn' ; t exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that' ; s how I felt. So, it wasn' ; t an easy time, believe me. But that' ; s pretty much my basic childhood. Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I' ; m sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn' ; t--I didn' ; t even, I don' ; t think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them " ; transsexuals," ; which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that' ; s the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister' ; s clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn' ; t do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn' ; t want " ; my kind" ; there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I' ; m like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, " ; mentally disturbed," ; because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to " ; fix them," ; so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn' ; t, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I' ; m one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we' ; ve come, there' ; s still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that' ; s okay and talk about your years in activism. You' ; ve been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn' ; t start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn' ; t come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn' ; t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there' ; s even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn' ; t understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I' ; ve heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn' ; t even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say " ; No," ; because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that' ; s what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don' ; t have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, " ; I want be like that person." ; Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s me when I grow up." ; But yet, then I find out that they' ; re either the joke or they' ; re, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I' ; m like, " ; Okay, well, that' ; s not me." ; So, I' ; m not like that, but you know, here I am, that' ; s who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn' ; t alone and there' ; s a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we' ; ve been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I' ; ve been around forever (laughs). It' ; s just so something that hasn' ; t been known, that' ; s all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There' ; s some tribes that don' ; t even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn' ; t have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That' ; s really interesting. And I' ; m glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn' ; t say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don' ; t agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they' ; re the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, " ; Hey, they' ; re like me and you know what, they' ; re okay. That' ; s an engineer, that' ; s a medical doctor and that' ; s a lawyer," ; you know? " ; This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it' ; s not so bad." ; So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn' ; t start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can' ; t remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I' ; m here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, " ; Oh, that' ; s the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff," ; but there' ; s so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let' ; s say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I' ; ve worked, I' ; ve had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, " ; Get that thing out of my hospital." ; So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she' ; s permanently disabled, because she didn' ; t receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn' ; t make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they' ; re no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn' ; t know how to deal with this. I didn' ; t know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I' ; d tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop--help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you' ; re talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn' ; t want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I' ; ve never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that' ; s on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that' ; s been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there' ; s a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they' ; re wondering, you know, " ; Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?" ; Um, you know, and, " ; Can she have her name change? Can she get women' ; s clothing? Can be isolated so she' ; s protected away from the general population?" ; All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state' ; s laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year' ; s. So, she was like, " ; No, no, no, no." ; (both laugh) So, of course I' ; ve moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, " ; You know, I' ; m an--I' ; m an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?" ; So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, " ; What can I do to come?" ; (laughs) You know? " ; What can I do when I get out here?" ; (laughs) " ; Where can I go?" ; He' ; s like, " ; Don' ; t worry, we' ; ll put you to work." ; So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, " ; Hey, it' ; s along the lines," ; because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn' ; t too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn' ; t worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don' ; t know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we' ; re remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn' ; t want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I' ; m sure it' ; s at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there' ; s less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that' ; s an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I' ; m a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that' ; s something that people don' ; t see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I' ; ve got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It' ; s usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it' ; s so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it' ; s more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the " ; intersectionality of marginalizations." ; So, you know, that' ; s why that particular day is so important to me, even though it' ; s a somber day. And I' ; m glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I' ; m hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that' ; s what the grant is called, " ; Fight the Hate." ; (laughs) So, you know, it' ; s an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I' ; m actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I' ; m also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I' ; m also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I' ; m, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I' ; m privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don' ; t have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we' ; ve done, there' ; s still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It' ; s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you' ; ve learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn' ; t be able to get their rights. That' ; s what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn' ; t get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they' ; re trying to pick up these supposedly " ; men" ; that dress as " ; women," ; which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it' ; s because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn' ; t make sense. And believe it or not, there' ; s still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I' ; m with another woman, I consider--I' ; m sexually attracted to other women. I' ; m romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There' ; s a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I' ; m not a lesbian because I' ; m a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they' ; re out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there' ; s still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we' ; ve actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I' ; ve looked into is--and I hope I' ; m not premature in saying this. I' ; ve been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I' ; m doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don' ; t think it' ; ll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I' ; m on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there' ; s more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that' ; s my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that' ; s where me, that' ; s my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that' ; s--that' ; s my life--that' ; s my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I' ; m a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it' ; s happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, " ; Hey, we' ; ve got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you." ; Friedman: That' ; s awful. Pronovost: So, they' ; re going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it' ; s so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it' ; s ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They' ; re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don' ; t have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people' ; s HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state' ; s forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA' ; s a national law, It' ; s not a state law (laughs). They shouldn' ; t be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the " ; Don' ; t Say Gay Bill" ; in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida' ; s bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we' ; re going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say " ; You' ; re gay." ; There' ; s another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that' ; s very similar to Texas' ; s bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, " ; Oh, it' ; s become a ' ; popular thing.' ; " ; It' ; s not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that' ; s why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months' ; time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they' ; re--the thing that I' ; m looking at is I' ; m hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that' ; s my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that' ; s more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we' ; ll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don' ; t think it' ; s that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there' ; s certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what' ; s right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there' ; s even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You' ; re looking at very, um, I don' ; t like to use this because I don' ; t like to use somebody' ; s name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don' ; t like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let' ; s take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, " ; Trumping somebody" ; is overcoming is somebody. So that' ; s what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don' ; t like people like me. You know, I' ; ve had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they' ; re having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That' ; s the only thing that they can' ; t change because that' ; s a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, " ; Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max." ; And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that' ; s not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren' ; t, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That' ; s the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there' ; s a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it' ; s mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, " ; granola-ish," ; if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It' ; s very similar. The fight' ; s the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they' ; ve raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag' ; s never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I' ; m hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you' ; ve already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I' ; ve learned so much it' ; s hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I' ; ve had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world' ; s largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- " ; Where where' ; s the donuts and coffee?" ; (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, " ; Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?" ; When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man' ; s field and being a woman trying to make it in a man' ; s field. And, and so I don' ; t--[connection froze]--People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that' ; s what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that' ; s one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can' ; t go out there. I can mention about it, but I can' ; t go out there and say, " ; You know, we need more protections for trans women of color." ; I can say that, but, you know, I don' ; t experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I' ; m not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that' ; s the main thing I' ; ve learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn' ; t just about any one person, it' ; s about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we' ; ve covered so much. (both laugh). I don' ; t know. I don' ; t think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It' ; s a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we' ; ve done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I' ; m just happy to be here. Like I said, that that' ; s my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I' ; m hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you' ; ve been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You' ; re very welcome. And it' ; s my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it' ; s our pleasure (both laugh). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml
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Pronovost, Leea. Interview April 8, 2022
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Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer.
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SC027-18
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LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ rights
Transgender people -- Civil rights
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2022-04-08
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video
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Leea Pronovost
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Julia Friedman
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San Diego (Calif.)
Springfield (Mass.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Leea Pronovost
Activists and activism
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History Department internship
LGBTQIA+ experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Madison Teater
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Theresa Rios
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Las Embajadores de Escondido
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5.4 2022-04-07 Oral history of Theresa Rios, April 7, 2022 SC027-17 00:34:29 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Escondido (Calif.) Hispanic Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Las Embajadores de Escondido Theresa Rios Madison Teater m4a RiosTheresa_MadisonTeater-2022-04-06.m4a 1:|24(4)|43(1)|52(14)|59(1)|66(7)|72(14)|86(14)|107(4)|122(11)|141(8)|159(6)|174(7)|193(3)|205(3)|219(12)|235(1)|249(11)|256(6)|271(5)|289(13)|315(15)|326(1)|337(12)|345(15)|352(7)|367(2)|383(1)|406(3)|433(13)|440(10)|456(13)|472(3)|491(7)|510(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1889cecb528454849ec8fbed1d12c9ea.mp3 Other audio English 68 The Introduction of Theresa Rios / Becoming a librarian Teater: < ; laughs> ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry. Teater: It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know < ; laugh> ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. < ; laughter> ; , it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That's fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said “Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Theresa Rios talks about moving from Arizona to California and how she came to be a librarian in the city of Escondido. Clifton, Arizona ; Escondido ; La Jolla ; librarian ; Palomar College ; Spanish ; Translator Becoming a librarian ; Spanish programs ; Theresa Rios in the Hispanico newspaper ; Translating for the public library 601 The Embajadores Program Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. < ; laughs> ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: < ; laugh> ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” < ; laugh> ; . I mean, I don't mean to it it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons < ; affirmative> ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. < ; affirmative> ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along at the library, and all my life. Theresa Rios talks about starting the Emajadores program, which gave Spanish speakers accessible resources in the library such as tours of the grounds, children's story times, and other elements for women, children, and the elderly. early reading programs ; El Tapatilla ; Embajadores program ; library ; literacy program dual-language learning ; Embajadores Program ; Library learning programs ; Spanish speaker ; Starting reading literacy programs at the library 1196 How to get Involved Teater: < ; laugh> ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. < ; affirmative> ; Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. < ; affirmative> ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and < ; affirmative> ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I have to-- < ; affirmative> ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- < ; affirmative> ; And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved. Theresa rios discusses how Escondido Public Library and other libaries can support non-English speakers and become more accessible and inclusive of people of different backgrounds and speak different languages. classes ; library ; Mexico City ; Spanish speakers ; support Accessibility in Libraries ; Escondido Public Library ; How libraries can be more inclusive to non-English speakers 1659 Connection with children as a librarian Teater: So you're still involved with children's programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That's Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or < ; laugh> ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. < ; affirmative> ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. < ; laugh> ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That's so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. < ; laugh> ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting, that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Theresa Rios talks about how being a children's librarian has effected her and how accomodating her supervisor was for her responsibilites that interfered with work. family ; husband ; librarian ; Mr. Humphrey ; nephew Appreciation as a librarian ; Appreciative employee ; family bonds ; legacy as a librarian Oral History Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. MJ Teater: All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I' ; m interviewing narrator Theresa Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here with me today. Theresa Rios: You' ; re very welcome. Teater: < ; laughs> ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I' ; m going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That' ; s so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I' ; m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program -- a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn' ; t know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let' ; s do this. Let' ; s tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there' ; s a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I' ; m sorry. Teater: It' ; s okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There' ; s a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, " ; The Red Shoes" ; and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you' ; d have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know < ; laugh> ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It' ; s from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there' ; s my boss over here. He' ; s not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there' ; s a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. < ; laughter> ; , it' ; s bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That' ; s fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I' ; ve been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said " ; Theresa! How are you? I haven' ; t seen you in," ; you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I' ; m just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That' ; s, that' ; s great. That' ; s so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children' ; s mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. < ; laughs> ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that' ; s in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught ' ; em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There' ; s a lot of paperwork that have here that I I' ; ve been going through, but you know, it' ; s been so long. It' ; s been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that' ; s okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child' ; s life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn' ; t. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I' ; m not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would' ; ve had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don' ; t know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: < ; laugh> ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, " ; Oh, no, we gotta get this--" ; < ; laugh> ; . I mean, I don' ; t mean to it it' ; s part of growing up it' ; s in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you' ; d have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can' ; t, it' ; s gone right now, but I' ; ll have to get those names if you need ' ; em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don' ; t-- at the time, I don' ; t know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don' ; t wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons < ; affirmative> ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they' ; re the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. < ; affirmative> ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they' ; re young of what' ; s going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn' ; t. And the ones that didn' ; t of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn' ; t want, whenever somebody treated any of ' ; em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it' ; s not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I' ; m still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they' ; ll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they' ; re wrong, I' ; ll tell them if they' ; re hurting, I' ; ll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that' ; s good too. So we get along and that' ; s how I get along at the library, and all my life. Teater: That' ; s Fantastic Rios: I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you? Teater: < ; laugh> ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you' ; re, you' ; re answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. < ; affirmative> ; Although I' ; m fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I' ; m not that good at it. And I I' ; m very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that' ; s married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. < ; affirmative> ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they' ; re having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn' ; t find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can' ; t think of it right now. I mean, it' ; s just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I' ; ve never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and < ; affirmative> ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she' ; s whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can' ; t anymore, I have to-- < ; affirmative> ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn' ; t walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he' ; s on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it' ; s a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can' ; t-- < ; affirmative> ; And, and that' ; s the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I' ; m very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite ' ; em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I' ; m still involved. Teater: So you' ; re still involved with children' ; s programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can' ; t commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they' ; re having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That' ; s Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I' ; m on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I' ; m just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I' ; m Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or < ; laugh> ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. < ; affirmative> ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. < ; laugh> ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn' ; t stay. He would, he wouldn' ; t stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn' ; t, you know, I' ; ve taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don' ; t you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That' ; s so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. < ; laugh> ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can' ; t attend a meeting, that I, or something that I' ; m involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I' ; m saying it' ; s family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It' ; s a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he' ; s my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what' ; s good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can' ; t do it, I can' ; t do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he' ; s a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that' ; s good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I' ; ve did or I' ; ll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I' ; m gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You' ; re so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Teater: Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today. Rios: You' ; re so welcome. Teater: Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day. Rios: You too goodly. Teater: All right. Bye. Bye. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Rios, Theresa. Interview April 7, 2022
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Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning.
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SC027-17
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Latine Americans
Libraries -- Literacy
Public libraries
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2022-04-07
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audio
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Theresa Rios
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Madison Teater
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Escondido (Calif.)
Arizona
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Theresa Rios
Community history
History Department internship
Latine experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Faye A. Jonason
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Leslee K. Roberts
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5.4 Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022. SC027-23 0:38:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Community oral histories CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm United States. Marine Corps Poway (Calif.) Women marines Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans -- United States Telephone operators Leslee K. Roberts Faye A. Jonason mp4 RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.mp4 1:|16(2)|32(7)|45(3)|64(2)|86(17)|113(4)|144(2)|174(4)|195(17)|225(13)|257(15)|284(3)|310(18)|335(4)|374(2)|406(7)|436(16)|459(15)|493(8)|511(16)|545(5)|594(12)|616(5)|639(6)|682(5)|719(11)|736(4)|753(13)|808(4)|852(2)|898(2)|932(5)|953(11)|989(11)|1019(4)|1050(9)|1089(10)|1156(10)|1167(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/73ed728127e92b4e01be2617427312f6.mp4 Other video English 0 Entering the Marine Corps/ Boot camp training Leslee Roberts discusses her decision to join the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. She recounts growing up in Cleveland, OH and how she had originally joined the Sisters of Charity, but that her independent personality made her a difficult fit to become a nun. Her brother who had ambitions to join the Marine Corps later introduced her to a recruiter and she enlisted. Leslee also discusses her boot camp training at Parris Island and the strict grooming rules that were expected of women Marines. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Marine corps ; Nuns ; Parris Island (S.C.) ; Sisters of Charity ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Vietnam War ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 349 Assignment at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses being assigned to Camp Pendleton in 1966 or 1967. She was around twenty-four years old. She worked in the Marine Corps Exchange and trained other Marines due to her previous work experience. It was during this period in which she met her husband. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 510 Working as a switchboard operator Leslee Roberts recounts her work as a switchboard operator in the Marines. She began this work prior to joining the Marines when she worked at the Salvation Army’s hospital. She briefly explains the technology behind the switchboard. She describes the most enjoyable part of the work was interacting with other people and learning about their day-to-day lives. Leslee also describes the Marine Corps uniforms that were worn during the summertime and wintertime. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marine Corps uniforms ; Military uniforms ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Switchboard operator ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 746 Women Marine barracks at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses living at the Women Marine barracks when she was assigned to Camp Pendleton. She describes the experience as unpleasant and lived there for less than a year before moving off base. She explains that the Woman Marine barracks were “squad based” and that Marines had to maintain their quarters to strict regulations. Leslee also briefly describes the social life in the barracks and how rank and rules affected daily life for the Marines. Barracks ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military ; Women Marine barracks 0 1042 Marriage Leslee Roberts describes her marriage to her husband who she met while assigned to Camp Pendleton. Her husband was a Gunnery Sergeant. They moved to Oceanside, CA after getting married and lived in Oceanside for five years before moving to Poway, CA. She explains that she continued to work for the Marine Corps Exchange after getting married. She also recounts the various military regulations that she and her husband had to jump through in order to get married. She explains that due to her low rank and her gender, she had to ask permission to marry her husband from her Commanding Officer. She also explains that she received an honorable discharge once she became pregnant. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marriage ; Military regulations ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Poway (Calif.) ; Pregnancy ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1318 Living in San Diego County Leslee Roberts describes her current life in San Diego County. She has lived in the same house in Poway, CA since 1972. She explains how Poway was a new community and that she enjoyed watching it grow. She recalls participating in events, greeting new citizens in Poway, and watching the construction of various developments and schools. Community center ; Developming community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools 0 1545 Reflecting on the Marine Corps Leslee Roberts reflects on the Marine Corps from a gender lens. She explains that while women were seen as second-class citizens during the Vietnam War, that men and women both enlist for the same reasons. She expresses her how she is glad to see women being granted the same honor and privileges as men in the military in the twenty-first century. Gender ; Marine Corps ; Sexism ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1676 The community of Poway, CA Leslee Roberts continues to reflects on the community of Poway, CA. She recalls the history of Poway’s schools that eventually led to the formation of Poway Unified School District. She also discusses the fight to create a community center and a community pool. Leslee also discusses the complicated relationship between North County and the City of San Diego, such as North County citizens having to abide by San Diego tax laws or relying on San Diego to fix their streets. Community center ; Developing community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; Poway Unified School District ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools ; Taxes 0 Oral history An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the
 ; Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason
 ; and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s
 ; Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral
 ; History Archives. So, thank you for being here.
 ; 
 ; Leslee Roberts: My pleasure.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell
 ; your last name, please.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes,
 ; 
 ; ma’am.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and
 ; how you came to the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a
 ; brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger
 ; than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally
 ; my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not
 ; work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming.
 ; So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like
 ; 
 ; I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while,
 ; and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the
 ; Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked
 ; at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay?
 ; So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me
 ; that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I
 ; said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever
 ; decision I made,
 ; 
 ; within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he
 ; even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too
 ; late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I went to bootcamp!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Where?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What did they train you to do?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of
 ; boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity.
 ; (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality,
 ; take me
 ; 
 ; (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to
 ; have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same.
 ; You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, you’re training―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a
 ; lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching,
 ; learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short.
 ; 
 ; It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar.
 ; But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Hm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you
 ; know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it
 ; up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my
 ; hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (shrugs) So―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I
 ; had choices. I didn’t
 ; 
 ; necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San
 ; Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was
 ; a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You said you were in your twenties.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I was around twenty-four.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They
 ; were eighteen, nineteen—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and
 ; they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person
 ; accou–accountant and Commissary accountant.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people
 ; to work in the Exchange, okay?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And how long did you do that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: For the three years that I was in.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during
 ; that time.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I met my husband.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He also worked
 ; 
 ; in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own
 ; store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and
 ; relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he
 ; finally come over and introduced himself.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist
 ; anymore, does it?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What was that like?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also
 ; did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army (unintelligible). And
 ; um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when
 ; I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office.
 ; 
 ; We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if
 ; someone called in sick, or whatever, so―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How would I go about doing that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a
 ; switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone
 ; within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the
 ; board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug
 ; them into each other.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it
 ; to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah. Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You just plugged them in!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what
 ; 
 ; were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and
 ; while you were doing other―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I always was in uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Which was?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —what kind of uniform?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In
 ; the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Outside, always.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like
 ; to tell us about?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you
 ; could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?”
 ; 
 ; and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience
 ; when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it
 ; was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Their families.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Can you be more specific?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they
 ; do for that?
 ; 
 ; (clears her throat)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military
 ; shopped there ; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we
 ; would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you
 ; were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Um―
 ; 
 ; (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a
 ; question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I didn’t hear the question.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to
 ; ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Where did she live?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of
 ; tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did.
 ; 
 ; I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff
 ; Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and
 ; she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So,
 ; she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How many―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: A great big―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: ―bunks?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you
 ; were judged—you were put in the squad bay according to your rank.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Exactly.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Absolutely.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Regulation.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Junk on the bunk?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And
 ; so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank
 ; was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the
 ; barracks? Did you―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have
 ; you do—picking
 ; 
 ; up around the barracks, and―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Field day?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and
 ; whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like
 ; it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do
 ; you call them, um―
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (inaudible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of
 ; course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent.
 ; 
 ; I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So,
 ; you lived in the–in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: About two years. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And then what did―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide).
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to
 ; share with us?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: As far as the military is concerned?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more
 ; conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release
 ; a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a
 ; 
 ; difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about
 ; it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been,
 ; to help win that war.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You–you appreciated it more?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Much more.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, I did.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And where did you go?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband
 ; who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here,
 ; okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when
 ; we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And how long did you stay there?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there
 ; 
 ; at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in
 ; San Diego. He retired.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Why did you like San Diego?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He liked San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh,
 ; yes. Yes. I liked it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to
 ; work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you
 ; wanted to get married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I–I—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided
 ; 
 ; to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you
 ; could do that.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (chuckles) Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Both you and your husband.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had
 ; to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do.
 ; Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my
 ; responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) And your husband had to do the same thing, right?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for
 ; himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a
 ; bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did,
 ; 
 ; for me. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: He asked permission for you.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Right. We went together.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that
 ; were required?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of
 ; our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if
 ; we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: I see.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Huh.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that’s how I left.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his
 ; house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, until I became―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Pregnant.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. (
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We lived there for two children.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San
 ; Diego area.
 ; 
 ; Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put
 ; in twenty-two years of his life. He continued to have privileges—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Ah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —military privileges.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what did he do?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for
 ; thirty years.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Wonderful!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve
 ; lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Wow! You must like it there.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number
 ; one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area.
 ; So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something
 ; growing) into this huge community.
 ; 
 ; And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think
 ; of any place else.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at
 ; Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: What do you like about the community?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the
 ; community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active
 ; but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So—
 ; I like to swim and do water aerobics, and—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I
 ; said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments,
 ; and so I got to watch
 ; 
 ; it grow.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development.
 ; Was there—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —an event or something?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: No. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was
 ; fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow,
 ; watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools.
 ; I know—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your
 ; house wh—at that time? Was that something that—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Pretty much.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside
 ; of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: That was on my own.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting. Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you
 ; would like to see asked?
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but
 ; seems to be talking about entering something into a document)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Just the fact that she left her close-knit family and friends, and
 ; her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to
 ; enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to
 ; make that monumental decision.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The fire.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Amen! (laughs also)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me?
 ; 
 ; Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the
 ; military has grown since you’ve been here.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we
 ; 
 ; were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said
 ; previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay?
 ; And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men
 ; would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was—it’s
 ; different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They
 ; want the—They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak
 ; for all of them, but yes. I think they—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country
 ; offers their military. So, yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs)
 ; 
 ; Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s
 ; something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think both men
 ; and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them
 ; something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted.
 ; Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs)
 ; whatever their purpose—for their country ; for themselves ; for their family. So,
 ; times have changed.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You’re very welcome.
 ; 
 ; (the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what
 ; Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —San Diego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San
 ; 
 ; Diego.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the
 ; education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: It did!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: just a community—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: It did.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway
 ; U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: That right there tells—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Is key.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, but—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: No, it wasn’t.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: But, did–did they have a school?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns
 ; from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They had one—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: — and one middle school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —one middle school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And they, and they were—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified
 ; school district,—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t considered—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: but they were—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But they—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And then we had (inaudible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves,
 ; okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was
 ; very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only
 ; one main—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay. I’m st—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road
 ; through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of
 ; widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears
 ; her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see
 ; what historical data is there, because based on more—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Now—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: See,
 ; 
 ; now Rancho Bernardo was—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —that is really—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in
 ; (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Seniors.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was more of a senior place.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It was a community planned—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And um, yes.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho
 ; Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the
 ; only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t
 ; been asked to write your history, so I get it.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the
 ; community center,—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, yeah.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: You know? All the things—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what happened with the community center?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it
 ; wa–I guess—it
 ; 
 ; wasn’t—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: The city—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve
 ; been going there for twenty years.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my
 ; mouth real quick—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter
 ; and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They
 ; were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something
 ; besides Poway which we kind of fought for.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the
 ; people wanted at the time.
 ; 
 ; So, these ladies were part of the movement.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh they were—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. Well—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the
 ; thing that–that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in
 ; San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway
 ; is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in
 ; that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we—whereas just down the road
 ; about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa,
 ; 
 ; some of the other ones.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It’s very—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the
 ; San Diego whatever, whatever.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Well, we do too.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my
 ; head around—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Everything.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San
 ; Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High,
 ; went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids
 ; started off at Me–Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever
 ; it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built
 ; 
 ; the high school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Do you?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Carmel Mountain.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we
 ; didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or,
 ; whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students.
 ; Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and
 ; it’s gotten huger, so—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. So—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I
 ; live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected
 ; like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding).
 ; 
 ; Norwood: She is right
 ; 
 ; beneath us.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of
 ; San Diego to fix our streets, to—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: To do whatever.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: To–to do whatever we need—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Right.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, they do take that!
 ; 
 ; Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons
 ; why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, no. I—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more
 ; input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the
 ; school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to
 ; participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it.
 ; Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles
 ; down the road, um, they were totally into, uh,
 ; 
 ; San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady
 ; has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I
 ; knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader”
 ; (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of
 ; recruiting more people and she—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I had a mouth!
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She singlehandedly—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: It’s a good thing!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She–but she s—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She’s still humble about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water
 ; aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody!
 ; 
 ; (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels
 ; welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics.
 ; We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there
 ; is background traffic noise)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I know.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And that’s the summer.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies
 ; but goodies.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In the summertime.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But, she’s—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Look at Doreen,
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And see, that’s where
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Doreen.
 ; 
 ; (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk ; unintelligible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be
 ; organized and get people together?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, but—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for?
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (nodding) Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Still! Still!
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself,
 ; 
 ; my project, my books. She—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t
 ; say no to you.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible).
 ; 
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 ; 
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 ; 
 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 
 ; 
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 ; 
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 ; 
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development.
Identifier
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SC027-23
Subject
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Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Korean War, 1950-1953
Switchboard operators
United States. Marine Corps
Veterans -- United States
Women marines
Date
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2022-11-23
Format
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video
Creator
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Leslee K. Roberts
Contributor
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Faye A. Jonason
Maryellen Cortellini
Terry Norwood
Coverage
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Poway (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Leslee K. Roberts
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Veteran experience
Women's experience
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oral Histories
Description
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Seth Stanley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jennie Ruiz
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.xml
Interview Keyword
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5.4 2023-04-07 Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-029 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Student success Jennie Ruiz Seth Stanley mp4 RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.mp4 1:|40(5)|52(10)|66(9)|77(15)|94(11)|105(8)|118(2)|135(1)|148(7)|166(14)|186(3)|212(2)|223(3)|235(3)|255(3)|273(1)|282(3)|292(4)|304(7)|342(5)|353(8)|368(2)|378(4)|388(3)|399(13)|410(1)|457(10)|468(7)|486(7)|510(1)|519(10)|529(9)|539(3)|549(4)|595(6)|606(1)|621(8)|633(13)|677(3)|690(1)|699(12)|713(1)|723(1)|736(10)|753(7)|764(3)|775(1)|794(6)|817(2)|837(9)|847(10)|860(10)|874(5)|885(2)|895(3)|937(11)|957(9)|968(3)|982(2)|1003(2)|1015(12)|1026(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/514cb50273b20f4b16cea6c5712830f4.mp4 Other video English 1 Introductions Introductions from Seth Stanley and Jennie Ruiz 34 Biographical/Educational Background Ruiz describes her personal and educational background. 85 Work During Education. Ruiz recalls working as a student and how it lead to her career in enabling student success in higher education. 187 Discovering Counseling Career Path Ruiz speaks about her beginnings of counseling as a career path and what led her to California State University San Marcos. 281 Experiences working for Student Success Ruiz recalls experiences supporting student success on campus, work as a peer mentor, the special-ness of the CSUSM student body, her work in the Dean of Students Office. CSUSM ; Student Success ; Student Success Coaching 555 Leadership Style and Experience Ruiz speaks about her leadership roles and leadership style in a university setting. CSUSM ; Faculty ; Leadership ; Staff ; Student Success Coaching 710 Network and Relationships on CSUSM Campus Ruiz details her networking skill and speaks about the relationships she's built at CSUSM CSUSM ; Faculty ; Networking ; relations ; Student Affairs 934 Relationships with Students and Building Rapport Ruiz speaks about her relationships with students on campus, building relationships with students and understanding their needs. CSUSM ; Faculty ; O-Team ; Orientation ; Student Relations ; Students ; Team-building 1162 Initial Experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz speaks to her initial experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center, how she interacted with the CCC in her role overseeing student orientation, and what the center's physical space was initially like. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership 1260 Cross-Cultural Center's Change Over Time Ruiz recalls how the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time, how the space where the CCC was located in relation to other parts of Student Life and Leadership, and the center's move to the Commons Building, work on a collaborative mural, and then the move to the University Student Union building. C3 ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership ; Tukwut Courtyard 1791 Friendship With Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Ruiz describes her friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu, former Associate Director of Multicultural Programs at CSUSM. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; Sara Sheikh ; Sara Sheikh-Arvizu 2080 Favorite Memories From Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz recalls working at the front desk of the Cross-Cultural Center, and remembers a student with significant mental health challenges, who found refuge and friendship at the CCC. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; NSYCH ; Students 2344 How the Cross-Cultural Center Helped Her Develop as a Professional Ruiz speaks to the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on her as a professional, her privilege, and centering voices in programming. Ruiz recalls a workshop with the campus Jewish community. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; intentionality ; Jennie Ruiz ; Privilege 2652 Memories from the Peer Mentoring Program Ruiz recalls some of her experiences with the creation of the Peer Mentoring Program and recalls an overnight retreat. CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; New Students ; Peer Mentoring Program ; Retreats ; Sara Sheikh ; Team Building 2956 Thoughts on the Significance of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz speaks to the importance of having identity-focused university spaces like the Black Student Center, the Latin
/x Center, etc, which champion underrepresented communities and assist with student success. ACE Scholars ; Community ; CSUSM ; Diversity ; EOP ; Equal Opportunity Program ; Identity-Specific Spaces ; Underrepresented 3354 Cross-Cultural Center and the Purpose of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz expands on why identity-specific spaces are necessary and what groups benefit from them. She also goes on to speak about the role the Cross-Cultural Center plays with the expansion of identity-specific spaces. APIDA ; C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Identity Specific Spaces ; Jennie Ruiz ; Kamalayan Alliance ; Pacific Islanders Moving image Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos. Seth Stanley [Interviewer]: This is Seth Stanley. Today I' ; m interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming. Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]: Hi, Seth < ; laughs> ; . SS: To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced your work in higher education? JR: Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go? SS: As long as you want. JR: Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-- SS: Go for it. JR: Background. Um, so I' ; m born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at a session I led about my like, professional journey. But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I' ; m like, thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ' ; cause I' ; m putting the ads up, so I' ; m gonna apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student orientation, ' ; cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um, the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared towards first-year students and student success in academia]. So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean' ; s list one semester. There, grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean' ; s list and I got an invitation to apply for leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center. And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn' ; t quite know what I was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree, and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went to USD [University of San Diego] for my master' ; s in counseling with a specialization in college student development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant. And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in 2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then [named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I' ; ve just held a variety of positions and here I am. < ; laugh> ; . SS: [Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and specifically supporting student success. JR: Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn' ; t want that to be repeated for somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um, and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don' ; t work hard other places but that there' ; s something about our students here. Um, there' ; s a lot of gratitude, there' ; s a lot of understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know, working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There' ; s nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he' ; s been able to be here since when, since he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he' ; s like, " ; You go to college!" ; And I' ; m like, no, I don' ; t go to col-- I' ; m not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he associates college with me. And that' ; s just, he' ; s grown up in that environment. And then my mom also worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here. SS: And, now you' ; re working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us through your experiences as that at the job? JR: In the five weeks I' ; ve been in the position, < ; laugh> ; , um, it' ; s-- it' ; s been, it' ; s been really great. It' ; s actually brought me back to I' ; d say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it' ; s been fun in the short time I' ; ve been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we' ; re gonna be engaging students who are coming in this next year. We' ; re kind of in this two-- two paths right now. It' ; s the finish this semester, but then let' ; s think big and creatively for the incoming class who' ; re gonna be here in fall [20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they' ; re doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in. So, I don' ; t know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um, ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of capture the rest of the students, so don' ; t really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about college. Um, so it' ; s going well. I' ; m really enjoying it. I' ; m able to be creative and think through things and plan, which is something I love to do. SS: So, I know you' ; ve only worked there for, you' ; ve only been working in this position for five weeks, but, um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations and team members? JR: Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ' ; cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven years. So I' ; ve been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it' ; s been interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it' ; s funny, my first day I brought donuts and I said to them, ' ; cause this team right now doesn' ; t have a permanent space. They' ; re literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent location, they can kind of feel that stability. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven' ; t started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I just ask for your grace. But I' ; m as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it' ; s just about the human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don' ; t connect that piece and know what really matters to these people just in life, you' ; re kind of missing the mark. So my goal was, and I told people ' ; cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships. And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there' ; s opportunities. But I, I' ; d say I' ; m very, I' ; m all about personal connections and relationships and being collaborative. But I' ; m also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we can' ; t bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide, make sure people are in the loop. ' ; Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things with humor. But Yeah. SS: Well, sounds like you' ; re the right person for the job. < ; laughter> ; Um, I' ; d like to ask, how have you leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success? JR: Oh gosh. SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: You know, it' ; s-- so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to speak and I' ; m like, okay, because part of me is like, " ; You want me to talk? Oh, that' ; s fine!" ; So I talked a lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation: it' ; s such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life. Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I' ; m asking people to do things when I don' ; t have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this relationship with people so you can-- ' ; cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It' ; s just, " ; I need you to do this. Can you help with this?" ; And so, and I fast forward now, there' ; s one of the colleagues I' ; ve worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I' ; m meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it' ; s just, we laugh now that I' ; m like, talk about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we' ; re gonna be implementing into the program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first coming on board. And so again, it' ; s like " ; It' ; s so fun to work with you again!" ; But, all that to say, it' ; s been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I' ; ve come into this job, the, the reactions I' ; ve gotten from people saying, " ; I' ; m so glad it' ; s you and I can' ; t wait to work with you in this role." ; And that' ; s been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I' ; ve been able to, you know, there' ; s credibility. I' ; m able to connect the coaches with people that they haven' ; t connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I' ; m like, " ; Let me just ask this person directly, like what the answer is." ; They' ; re like, " ; You can just do that?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I just can chat whoever, or text whoever and vice versa." ; So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships is literally how I' ; ve gotten everything done here on this campus. It' ; s, it' ; s been so, so important. So I don' ; t think I answered the question? SS: No, I love that. I love that. I' ; m so glad to see you [indistinguishable]. JR: It' ; s been, it' ; s very sweet. I' ; m like, " ; Thank you!" ; It is very, because especially it' ; s people that I' ; ve worked with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, " ; You don' ; t have to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there' ; s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you' ; re feeling so we can just deal with it." ; And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you' ; re saying things. And I' ; m like, just, " ; I' ; ve been here long enough. Like, just tell me." ; SS: [Indistinguishable] So I' ; d like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and understanding their unique, needs? JR: Yeah. Um, so I' ; ve had the benefit, I mean, since I' ; ve started here to work directly with students. So in my orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I-- it' ; s so hard to describe something that I feel like just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor, but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it' ; s, you know, I' ; m able to kind of feel that out. I feel like I' ; m very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can-- I can tell-- if I know someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there' ; s something going on or what' ; s happening, and I' ; ll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference. You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old-- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ' ; cause I was overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within their life. Whether it' ; s, they' ; ve had very something very difficult happen to them and they' ; re navigating it and how they' ; re acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I' ; m really good about student[s] coming in and being like, " ; What is going on? Like, what' ; s, what' ; s happening?" ; And also good about being like, what we' ; re doing here isn' ; t working. So how do we, let' ; s figure it out. So through the years I' ; ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor joked with me, she' ; s like, " ; I' ; ve never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same sentence, the student, thanks you." ; < ; laugh> ; It' ; s just, it' ; s treating somebody as a human being. ' ; Cause, even if you' ; re making a decision that' ; s difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ' ; Cause I still have a connection with the students who are on orientation team. ' ; Cause my previous position, I was still in the same office and I would, they' ; d be laying down on orientation day and I' ; d just be like, " ; What are you doing?" ; They' ; re like, " ; Oh, sorry Jennie!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Come on," ; < ; laugh> ; " ; Get your, get yourself together. Don' ; t be laying down on the job." ; So. SS: All right. Um, finally we' ; re gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions. JR: I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay. SS: I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you' ; re just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability. JR: Conduit of stability. Oh, that' ; s deep. Okay. SS: Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? JR: Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I imagine you' ; re interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin, SS: Um, I' ; m not sure, she' ; s not one I' ; m interviewing. JR: Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he' ; s like a president of a university now. It' ; s amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started-- because I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in, um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we' ; d go up to C3. So that' ; s how, that' ; s what I remember it as. We' ; d go up to, we' ; d go to C, we' ; d be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that' ; s kind of my initial like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted. SS: This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change? JR: Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year-- and I think the plans had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don' ; t know if you' ; re familiar or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That' ; s where Student Life and Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a community building location for the Center. So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle-- Um and then around the corner through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don' ; t remember the nuances, but I would imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that " ; What does this look like?" ; conversation. So, um, how it' ; s evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember correctly, I don' ; t know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life and Leadership. It' ; s called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I' ; m remembering this correctly. So what ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons 206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that [Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space when it was up there was-- I mean, it was massive. It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don' ; t know what the timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a, program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it' ; s still up in the C3 here in the Student Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn' ; t in as much conversation about because at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role. So I wasn' ; t gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it' ; s just, it' ; s just beautiful. And it' ; s with the balcony. And we' ; ve held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd' ; s [Lai, Director of the CCC] great. He' ; s always willing to host people. Um, so it' ; s done a lot of trainings in there and stuff like that. So, that' ; s kind of how the physical space has evolved. It' ; s gone a long way from this sized office. SS: Thank you for that. JR: Yeah. SS: So many permutations. I love the red couches. JR: The red couches. I mean, that' ; s the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread, the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there. SS: Yeah. [Indistinguishable] JR: Oh, I' ; m sure you did. SS: Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the Cross-Cultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that position? JR: < ; laughs> ; SS: How' ; d that Happen? JR: I don' ; t know. You know, I think, when you' ; re in a-- when you' ; re leading a department right? And somebody leaves, you' ; re kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving while we' ; re doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren' ; t part of other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I' ; m like, that' ; s funny. That' ; s the population I' ; m working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we' ; re really working with the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of-- ' ; Cause I had already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know, " ; Can you just help with this for a little bit?" ; And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency? Um, so it was a fun- SS: Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn' ; t find it. How Long? JR: It was about a semest- I' ; d say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of months in the spring semester of-- oh gosh, I don' ; t know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12, around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ' ; cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So. SS: Perfect. I don' ; t wanna get too sidetracked but, I' ; d like, if you' ; re willing, I' ; d like you to tell me about your friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she? JR: God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships? SS: I' ; m not sure. < ; laughs> ; JR: Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She' ; s like, how was your interview? I' ; m like, it' ; s at three. So I' ; ll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we' ; d all have a chance to meet all the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just peaceful human being. Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she' ; s one of those people in my life, and I tell her all the time, and it' ; s now her and her wife because they' ; re, they' ; re like cup filling people like you, you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I' ; m like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um, not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years after she' ; d gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I said, you are the perfect and only person I would' ; ve wanted to interact with on this day. Because she' ; s so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But-- and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it' ; s just like, there' ; s no laugh like it. Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you' ; re the only person in the room. She has nothing else to distract her. It' ; s a very intentional, like, you' ; re hearing it a, a pattern like purposeful and intentional. She' ; s just a good, good person. So, I remember, ' ; cause I tend to talk a lot and, um, and this isn' ; t fair ' ; cause you' ; re asking me to talk, so there' ; s no, there' ; s no judgment here. But I remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process. So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I' ; ve always taken that with me. But, we' ; ve, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I' ; ve had the privilege to, I was there the day that, they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just one of those people in your life that I' ; m grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and it, I, it' ; s one of those things where I' ; m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because there' ; s days where I' ; m like, what do I bring to you? < ; laughs> ; Because she' ; s just so fantastic. But she would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you' ; re nuts. So she' ; s special. SS: I love that. That' ; s incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That' ; s amazing. I know we' ; re in the little sidetrack here, but- JR: No, it' ; s fine. it' ; s all connected. SS: It' ; s all oral history, its all about people, so. JR: It Is. SS: Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite, just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center? JR: Hmm. < ; laugh> ; . SS: This is a little stumped [one]. JR: No, it' ; s not stumped. I just, there' ; s certain things that it' ; s like, I just immediately remember and I' ; m like, it doesn' ; t have to be super deep, right? SS: Mm-hmm. JR: I remember there was a period of time, I don' ; t know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were ti-- I don' ; t know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love NSYNC. It' ; s a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora. And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, " ; If I am here at my shift, you are hearing NSYNC and boy bands." ; And it just became a thing. They' ; re like, " ; Oh, Jennie' ; s here." ; And I would just play that music. And, it was, that' ; s the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny. They were like, " ; Oh God, Jenny' ; s on shift." ; But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there' ; s a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won' ; t say his name for obvious reasons you' ; ll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him ' ; cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-- SS: Camo? JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the sweetest, kindest person. And I, that' ; s he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would come in there all the time and that' ; s where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him. And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer gratitude. And when I-- when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ' ; cause I was in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within relation to [C3], but it' ; s a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, " ; Thank you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life." ; and I was just like, God, what a gift you just gave me. So, um, I don' ; t know if I would' ; ve had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the case for a lot of students, so. SS: Wow. JR: [Mm-hmm] < ; laugh> ; . SS: Sorry about that. JR: I know it' ; s tough and yeah. Yeah. SS: [indistinguishable] It' ; s remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. < ; laugh> ; JR: NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ' ; cause again, he just exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm. SS: Well on a lighter note! Uh. JR: < ; laugh> ; , I know, sorry take these down. SS: No, no, no. It' ; s perfect. It' ; s perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional? JR: Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the space and I' ; m at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn' ; t want my own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think < ; laughs> ; makes a difference. That I' ; m aware of how my identity impacts those around me. But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some activities-- Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don' ; t remember what the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we' ; re not, we' ; re not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in. Um, ' ; cause why wouldn' ; t have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we' ; re doing it the right way, let' ; s do that. So that was a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and then just--Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with students I probably normally wouldn' ; t have just because they weren' ; t involved in Orientation Team. Like this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women' ; s Center, the Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers ; our staffs would get together on a frequent basis. And there' ; s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I' ; m still in, contact with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna get things done. And it' ; s like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience. SS: Yeah. That' ; s great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this doesn' ; t have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ' ; cause I know you worked a pretty short time over there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a part of necessarily? JR: Hmm. Geez, just so many SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It' ; s one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don' ; t have the resources to continue it, you can only do so much. And so-- but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, " ; You work with new students, can we just do this connection?" ; And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of, we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers, you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was really the, the pieces of how-- why we' ; re serving this particular population because there is an equity gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and stuff like that. Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don' ; t think it was a while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was we had them all come together. So we' ; ve had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had, there' ; s a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can' ; t spend the money on this. And we' ; re like, " ; What are we supposed to do?" ; So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like, internal team-building exercises, but we' ; re like, " ; What the hell are we gonna do?" ; But we figured it out. What' ; s funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff. SS: < ; laughs> ; . JR: So I' ; ve known him forever and it' ; s really cool. And then funny enough we, well it' ; s not funny but, we had to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that' ; s when our car died. So we went back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we' ; re meeting with this loan officer, she' ; s like, where do you work? I told her, she' ; s like, " ; I knew you look familiar!" ; And my husband' ; s always like, " ; I swear to God, she knows people everywhere." ; And she said, " ; I was part of the peer mentoring program" ; and I remembered her ' ; cause she was assigned to, I would say was our best mentor ' ; cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, " ; Can you talk? Can you touch base with your students?" ; But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program and just being like, " ; I remember you!" ; And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren' ; t able to keep it going. So. SS: Yeah. That' ; s cool that you saw your, your one mentor--[indistinguishable] JR: It was so funny that, " ; I know you look familiar!" ; When I said I worked at campus, it was funny. SS: Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources. Yeah, it' ; s definitely challenging. JR: It is. Especially when it' ; s such meaningful work like that. I mean, it' ; s literally to support, but now I' ; m in a space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting. SS: Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students? JR: Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that' ; s such a large umbrella, right? And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there' ; s an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it' ; s about equity, right? And it' ; s interesting having conversations with people who don' ; t quite get it and there' ; s people who make comments sometimes it' ; s like, " ; What about a space for us?" ; And I' ; m like, do you understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their life. That' ; s why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those programs exist because they' ; re-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right? First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from, they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can imagine a student coming here and I' ; ve never really experienced it, but being like, " ; I don' ; t see myself here." ; They' ; re not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They' ; re not gonna feel like going to class because why would they care? I mean, there' ; s some students who inherently they just have this intrinsic motivation and they' ; ll go to school and it' ; s fine. But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That' ; ll just make it that much more just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they' ; re placed in inaccessible areas that people don' ; t necessarily know about. If you do it well and put ' ; em in high traffic areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an issue. So. SS: Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the Cross-Cultural Center that you would' ; ve approached differently if given the chance? JR: Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama < ; laughs> ; , and I wish I would' ; ve come in and I don' ; t know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now about things and haven' ; t gone through when I' ; ve gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in and be able to really help the students to be very-- To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don' ; t know. I think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you' ; re at in life. And I got lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can' ; t think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there' ; s still days where I' ; m like, " ; You wanted me to be in there?" ; But, it worked out. But I think those are the things I can, I can think of. SS: That' ; s good. JR: Yeah. SS: More experience. JR: More experience. It' ; s all, it' ; s all experience. Yes. SS: Well, as we' ; re wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um-- JR: Asian Pacific Islander. SS: Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders. JR: < ; laughs> ; Yes. SS: I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white student center? What' ; s your response to that? JR: < ; laughs> ; That' ; s my response. < ; laughs> ; Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking spaces where they see others like them. SS: [Mm-hmm.] JR: Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it' ; s always going to be met with some dissonance because there' ; s gonna always be people who just don' ; t get it. But the people who are the ones traditionally, and I know there' ; s people who may identify as the same within that center and say, I don' ; t think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development, you get to the point where you' ; re comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to understand that everyone else is in a different space and that' ; s okay. And that some students may be okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to feel safe, then I think that' ; s been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I think the people who ask those questions about, why don' ; t we have this? Why don' ; t we have this? And it' ; s like, I don' ; t-- there' ; s gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don' ; t have an answer for it. They don' ; t have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, " ; Why do you think we need that space?" ; And they don' ; t have any, you know, there' ; s no research to back up the answers that they' ; re hoping to get. It' ; s just, they' ; re there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don' ; t wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I' ; m far from being an expert on how to implement that. But if you don' ; t have the resources and don' ; t have the institutional support, you' ; re only gonna be, you' ; re set up to fail. SS: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It' ; s worth it. JR: Yep. Mm-hmm. SS: To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? JR: I would imagine, I' ; ll say Floyd specifically ' ; cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he' ; s gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the Cross-Cultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing, I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings and that sort of thing. I would imagine there' ; s been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space that, that population tends to spend time. I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ' ; cause they' ; re Kamalayan Alliance, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some people had issues with it. It' ; s kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it' ; s like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected. So, I would imagine-- I know there' ; s some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces and identity centers. And I' ; m sure there' ; s gonna be conversation about what, what is C3' ; s role in that? Um, I don' ; t know the answer I' ; m not privy to those conversations, but I' ; m sure the questions have come up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It' ; s just, I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot of conversations about what is the vision and mission and kind of, where' ; s it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I' ; m sure there' ; s also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus? But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He' ; s [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center] good. He' ; s good. SS: Yea, he is good. JR: He is good. SR: Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and-- JR: This was Fun. < ; laughs> ; . I don' ; t know what I expected, But yeah. SS: Anyway, I' ; m gonna end the recording. JR: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
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Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
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SC027-029
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
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2023-04-07
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video
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Jennie Ruiz
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Moving image
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Jennie Ruiz
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Seth Stanley
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Sheehan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lilian Serrano
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.xml
Interview Keyword
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Alianza Comunitaria
National Latino Research Center
Universidad Popular
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Oral History of Lilian Serrano, April 6, 2022 SC027-16 1:08:13 SC027 CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos Community organization Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County Alianza Comunitaria National Latino Research Center Universidad Popular Lilian Serrano Robert Sheehan Video SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.mp4 1:|23(2)|52(6)|66(5)|83(6)|100(11)|126(9)|138(4)|154(12)|174(1)|195(1)|210(1)|221(8)|234(12)|247(13)|266(4)|285(3)|296(7)|306(6)|322(11)|334(9)|350(4)|370(2)|382(5)|402(7)|438(2)|454(5)|467(11)|479(13)|503(5)|516(12)|530(4)|543(9)|555(9)|569(5)|581(1)|598(7)|611(7)|623(10)|637(1)|648(12)|665(1)|679(6)|691(11)|705(2)|717(8)|731(2)|744(3)|761(12)|774(1)|786(5)|799(5)|816(7)|827(13)|840(9)|857(7)|869(7)|883(1)|897(12)|909(10)|927(6)|943(9)|954(11)|967(16)|979(11)|996(9)|1008(5)|1021(11)|1056(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b6bf87a1a952cb442b90ba8ffd86ee22.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/Living in Tijuana Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It's a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: I'd like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn't live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They're Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there's actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they're paying for them. And that's what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there's three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That's very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn't until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent’s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I've been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don't think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they're like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don't live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Chula Vista ; Oxnard ; Tijuana ; Transnational Families 550 Transition from middle school in Tijuana to high school in Oxnard Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don't have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. < ; laugh> ; I didn't have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that's where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. < ; laugh> ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don't have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn't have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn't have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn't really, I don't think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn't understand the language < ; laugh> ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ‘Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don't remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. ESL ; high school ; Oxnard 879 Experience with bilingual program in high school Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn't have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn't have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I'm pretty sure the school didn't have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that's endemic in American schools? They don't have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I'm not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you're new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that's what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn't have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don't get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. bilingual education ; ESL ; high school ; immigrants ; Spanish 1266 Being in a multi-status family while studying at CSUSM Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. < ; laugh> ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn't have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It's still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. college ; immigration status ; San Marcos ; undocumented 1692 Student Activism and the National Latino Research Center Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ‘Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we're making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn't true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn't know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn't know how Congress works. I didn't know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn’t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. college ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; MEChA ; National Latino Research Center ; San Marcos ; student activism 2125 From student activist to community organizer Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you've helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It's all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that's the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don't know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they're able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there's an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I've been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they're called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven't seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there's a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there's a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we're able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we're able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Alianza Comunitaria ; Border Patrol ; DUI checkpoint ; immigrant rights ; immigrants ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County ; social media ; Universidad Popular 2819 Advocating for Immigrant Rights Sheehan: That's really, really incredible. You said you've seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent < ; laugh> ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don't want the departments coming after me, like, you're saying we're violating the law. That's not true. Yes. But you did at one point. < ; laugh> ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I've been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they're not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there's really no navigation when you're being denied services, because you don't have health insurance. And you're not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don't qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we're very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Alianza Comunitaria ; health care ; immigrants ; immigration status ; legislation ; North County ; Universidad Popular 3294 SB54 California Values Act and Immigration Enforcement Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that's going into effect in May? That's a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. < ; laugh> ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That's the law that I was hinting earlier < ; laugh> ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they’re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They're not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn't get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver's licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it's illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there's still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn't collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. California Sanctuary Law ; California Values Act ; DUI checkpoints ; Escondido ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County 3612 Growing Latino Population, Redistricting in San Diego County, and Conclusion Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you'd like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. < ; laugh> ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we've been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don't know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn't there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you're Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it's changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don't know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you're undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it's almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it's Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They're your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they're your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that's what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don't know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn't make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people's memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. “And how is Trump gonna use this against me?”, right. “How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?” And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Cal State San Marcos ; Escondido ; immigrants ; Latino population ; North County ; redistricting ; San Marcos ; U.S. Census Oral History Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It' ; s a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: I' ; d like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn' ; t live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They' ; re Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there' ; s actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there' ; s nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they' ; re paying for them. And that' ; s what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there' ; s three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That' ; s very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn' ; t until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent' ; s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I' ; ve been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don' ; t think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they' ; re like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don' ; t live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Sheehan: Wow. So what did your parents do for living, Serrano: When now, or < ; laugh> ; ? Sheehan: Well, both when back then and now what do they do? Serrano: So, at the, uh, when, you know, back when I was born my parents had their own business. So, you know, that goes back to the ability to have a visa and actually be able to afford medical services. Also, I mean, giving birth back then, according to what my parents share with me, wasn' ; t as expensive as it is now, right. Affording a medical services wasn' ; t as expense. So my parents were definitely what some folks will consider maybe lower middle class, ' ; cause they had their own small business. A family run business. And so that' ; s what they did for a living. As things start getting more complicated and you know, big corporations start coming in and it was just harder for them to keep up with their small business. That is actually a big part. That and the reality that hit them, that they had three girls aging, almost approaching college time and looking at college tuitions, not being as affordable. That the reality of them having to move the family to the United States to seek better opportunities. That' ; s when they made that tough decision. So, they shut down their business and they moved to, like I said, to Oxnard, California. And Oxnard is a primarily agricultural town. So when they first arrived, my parents went from being business owners to them being farm workers. So my dad actually worked out in the tomato fields. It wasn' ; t for a long time, but he nonetheless, the continue of the years, he continued to do work that indirectly was related to the agricultural field. From packing plants to transportation centers, and warehouse and everything that is involved within the production of fresh produce. And so did my mom. Actually, my mom until not a long time ago worked at packing vegetables. Just different variety of vegetables--tomatoes, avocados, broccoli. I think the list goes on. But my parents were for all my high school and most of my college years, they were considered farm workers. Nowadays as they are a little older--and they just recently moved to San Diego County--my dad is not working right now because of his health condition. And my mom, is uh, she' ; s working at a manufacturing job. Labor work. Sheehan: And what was their small business in Mexico? What did they do? Serrano: Yeah, they had a little store, a little market. It' ; s called abarrotes in Mexico. So, they sell a little bit of everything. You know, fresh produce, meats. Just like any corner convenient little market store that you can think of. That that' ; s what my parents did. That business was actually originally opened by my great-grandparents when they first arrived to Tijuana and it was passed down generations until it was my parents who, once again, had to make the tough decision of shutting it down. Sheehan: So that really must have been a difficult decision to make, to leave all that behind. Serrano: It definitely was. I know that they invested many years of their lives. I mean, my mom grew up in that business. By the time my mom was born that my great grandparents already had the business. So, you know, my mom grew up there. I spent most the first, at least half of my life right there. Anything from having to help clean up the business to sometimes as I was getting older, having to take care of the registry and, you know, like just handling cash, fixing, restocking, everything, right? Like we, we have that in common with my mom where we both, we all grew up in that store. But yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think, you know, like most parents, they did what they had to do. Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don' ; t have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. < ; laugh> ; I didn' ; t have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that' ; s where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. < ; laugh> ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don' ; t have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn' ; t have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn' ; t have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn' ; t really, I don' ; t think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn' ; t understand the language < ; laugh> ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ' ; Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don' ; t remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn' ; t have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn' ; t have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I' ; m pretty sure the school didn' ; t have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that' ; s endemic in American schools? They don' ; t have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I' ; m not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you' ; re new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that' ; s what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn' ; t have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don' ; t get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. Sheehan: So in your opinion, what would be the way that schools could go about helping that education process? Is there a way that someone who has more advanced skills like yourself in math would be able to apply those skills successfully in a high school setting? Serrano: Well, I think for that, it would require for us to really invest in our English learner programs. We know that, unfortunately, our English learner programs tend to be underfunded. Right. They just don' ; t have the resources to really address the need. The need is big. We still have a lot of kids who are U.S. citizens who were born and attend, you know, all the K through 12 in the United States, but that never really reclassify, never really gained that proficiency in English in part, because they don' ; t, um, you know, when they get home, they primarily speak Spanish. And they attend schools who don' ; t have the resources to provide that more one on one that like individual support that a lot of students require. So I really think to address that question, like really the problem is that our schools are underserved. We don' ; t have enough resources. We don' ; t have enough teachers. We don' ; t pay our teachers enough. Like we don' ; t have enough specialized teachers. I still remember, and that was not my experience. But in my last year of high school, the amount of ESL students that we had in my high school was so big that we didn' ; t have enough ESL teachers. So we ended up opening one class with a teacher who had, I think studied two years of Spanish < ; laugh> ; or something like that. So this is somebody that is not proficient in Spanish but ended up having to take an ESL class just because we didn' ; t have enough teachers. And I can imagine, right. That was probably also a tough call for our administrators. But unfortunately, when we don' ; t have, we don' ; t invest in bilingual teachers, when we don' ; t invest in our bilingual programs, that is the result, right. We have students who are not being challenged in the classroom, like I felt I wasn' ; t. But also, students who actually need a lot of support just to catch up with their classmates and are not receiving that, and therefore are staying behind. So we are really underserving our students by doing that, right. Our classroom should be an environment where you should be able to learn basic skills, but also to be pushed and challenged. And we are, at least in my experience in high school, at an ESL program, that was not the case. Sheehan: And do you remember the percentage of kids who graduated from your graduating class? Serrano: < ; laugh> ; No. I don' ; t remember. That was a long time ago. Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. < ; laugh> ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn' ; t have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It' ; s still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. Sheehan: Very interesting. So what did you do for financial support then? Was it just kind of grants and student loans and things like that? Serrano: Yep. < ; laugh> ; So it was grants. It was, um, like I mentioned through camp, I was able to access some scholarships. And then I was able to, or ended up having to, sign up for student loans. Yeah. Sheehan: Mm-hmm, < ; affirmative> ; very much the American experience right now. < ; laugh> ; So you' ; re one of three sisters. You had said your older sister had dropped out of college. Did your younger sister attend Cal State San Marcos or any other college? Serrano: So actually, yes, my older sister that dropping from Cal State San Marcos, just to later on, actually, she was part of the first class of Mira Costa students who graduated with a bachelor' ; s. She has a Bachelor' ; s of Science from Mira Costa College. And that was recent. And my younger sister, she is currently a student at UC Irvine. Sheehan: Wow. So you were the middle daughter and ended up with the first degree. Was that the first degree in your family? Serrano: Yes. Yes, that was the first degree in my family. And yes, I know. I ended up being the middle child as an example, I guess. < ; laugh> ; . Sheehan: And what was your degree in? Serrano: Mine? Sheehan: Yes. Serrano: I ended up doing my bachelor' ; s in human development with my emphasis in health services. Sheehan: And then that led into your current position, or how did you end up where you are now? Serrano: I ended up doing a double major, sorry. I should have--I did a double major in Human Development and Spanish. So I wanted to make sure that I didn' ; t lose my proficiency in the language, but also, I had always really liked literature and, you know, Spanish is my first language, so I felt a lot more comfortable in that language. So I ended up studying both. When I first started at Cal State San Marcos, I knew I had to find my home. ' ; Cause my family was far, far away. Especially because when my parents decided to move the family and overstay their visas, they became undocumented. Right. So even though if they had, you know like their whole lives, they had been moving back and forward and, like I shared, my great grandparents, my grandparents, they were all now, actually at the time I think they were already U.S. citizens. By the time we moved. If not, they were very close to becoming U.S. citizens. My parents only had visas. So when they moved and overstayed, they became undocumented. So something that wasn' ; t thinking of when I picked the college is that because we are in the border now, there was an imaginary line dividing me and my parents. The way that our immigration system defines the border is a hundred miles from the port of entry. So for those of us who live in San Diego County, especially those of us who live in North County, we' ; re very familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints set on the 15 freeway and on the 5, which, you know, are around the areas of Temecula and San Clemente. So my parents, when I first started college, my freshman year, they were still undocumented. So they couldn' ; t risk, and I myself couldn' ; t ask them to risk, their ability to be with my younger sister who at the time was I think, a first grader, by crossing that checkpoint. Because every time an undocumented immigrant drives through that checkpoint, there' ; s a possibility of being arrested and deported. So I, I was not--I knew about the checkpoint, but I didn' ; t understand all the complications that come with it until I had already submitted everything for Cal State San Marcos. I had my orientation day and then I had to have that tough conversation that my parents couldn' ; t drop me off for orientation. They did end up dropping me off for my first day at the dorms. But after that, I was basically on my own. If I wanted to see my parents, I would have to either drive or take the train and me being me, the U.S. citizen crossing that checkpoint versus my parents who were undocumented. So, I forgot what I was saying. < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; That' ; s all right. Serrano: [unclear]. Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ' ; Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we' ; re making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It' ; s not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn' ; t true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn' ; t know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn' ; t know how Congress works. I didn' ; t know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn' ; t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. They were not instituting the protest ' ; cause we were the ones really wanting to do everything, right. But they were there to make sure we were doing it in a safe way. So when I kind of started at Cal State San Marcos, find out we had a MEChA chapter, I knew since like orientation, I' ; m joining this organization ' ; cause they' ; re doing what I wanna be doing. So, it is actually through that, that I met one of my mentors, Arcela Nuñez[-Alvarez] who at the time was the director of the National Latino Research Center and the advisor for MEChA, um, that I actually started getting more involved here locally in North County. So a lot my years as a student at Cal State San Marcos, I really spent getting to know North County and the local immigrant rights movement through MEChA. And also, you know, we also got into some trouble at Cal State San Marcos as we were the biggest organization, student organization that represent Latino and Latinx students. And you know, at the time we were look[ing at a] tuition increase. We still--and until this day--Cal State San Marcos still doesn' ; t have a Chicano Studies department. But back then we had even less Chicano professors. So there was a lot of things that I was seeing in my daily life that it just didn' ; t feel right. Didn' ; t feel that that was something, or an environment in which folks like myself could thrive. And my goal was always to try to, you know, create a world where I wanna live in and create a world where I want other generations--future generations--to live in. So I got involved and I was, you know, I struggled a little bit because I was taking classes and then I was doing all this community work and I never saw the bridge. Right. I never saw like the connection for me. So like, no, this is what I do because that' ; s just what feels right to me. And I' ; m going to class because one day I' ; m gonna have a career, but I still didn' ; t know what, < ; laugh> ; like most college students. So as my college year start--you know, I started approaching the end of my college career, I started seeing that overlap. Right. And I found that overlap initially, actually ended up getting hired as a student assistant. And then later on, I came right after graduation, came in as staff at the National Latino Research Center and in there--which is a department at Cal State San Marcos--I learned a lot about research. But also, I learned how research can be used to really bring attention to issues like that I was seeing. So that' ; s kind of where I started seeing like, Okay, there' ; s an overlap. I can actually do something with this education that I' ; m getting to improve and continue to also use the skills that I learned as an organizer versus an activist. As an organizer in the community. And I can merge both. And I can merge them in a way in which I create the opportunities that I wanna see. Right. And I kind of was able to after graduation and after like a few years of experience working at the NLRC and now, you know, as Universidad Popular, that' ; s what I' ; m doing. I' ; m still continuing to create the spaces and the opportunities that I really wish I had when I was in that position in my life. Right. So for young folks, but also for like our, um, just our immigrant communities in general. Especially in North County, which, once I moved here, I fell in love with this region and also came to find out that this region is severely underserved. If I struggled in Oxnard--like this community is severely underserved. So, I decided that [I' ; d] dedicate my professional career to build resources here in North County. And it was all, you know, it was all as I was trying to merge my worlds into one. < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you' ; ve helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It' ; s all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that' ; s the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don' ; t know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they' ; re able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there' ; s an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I' ; ve been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they' ; re called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven' ; t seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there' ; s a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there' ; s a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we' ; re able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we' ; re able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Sheehan: That' ; s incredible. So there' ; s this whole support system for immigrants in North County that you' ; ve created. Is that something that you' ; ve done in, what was the timeframe on that? Serrano: So when I first kind of joined a group, it was kind of baby. It was barely community members. A lot of them college students, a lot of them Cal State San Marcos students who were going to these checkpoints to start documenting what was happening. Right. And they will just, because they were already there, they will just start texting their family and friends who will then forward that text message to their families and friends. So it was like a tree. And this started back in 2009. I joined the group in 2010, so months after it was first created. And we knew that we needed to reach people faster and also in a more effective way. So, I was able to, as a student, just volunteer my time. And, you know, also as a young person that grew up with technology, trying to figure out how do we use technology to do that, to do exactly that. So at the time--and this is 2009--Facebook had only been around for a few years, and it was barely kind of getting momentum. So we started using Facebook as an organizing tool. We were probably one of the first groups that started using Facebook. You know, later we also used Instagram as an organizing platform to do that. And then also we knew that a lot of community members that we were targeting, like the folks that needed to get this information, were not gonna be able to jump on a Facebook page because at the time they probably didn' ; t have the technology or didn' ; t know how to use it. So we knew that we needed to do something with direct text message. We didn' ; t have resources. This is all volunteer work. We didn' ; t have grants. We didn' ; t have the ability to get donations really. Like, I mean, we were getting donations, but we' ; re not a 501c3, right. There' ; s no real exchange that could happen. So somebody literally just said, " ; I have an old Blackberry that you can have if you want it" ; . And then somebody was kind enough to say, " ; And I can add a new line to my family plan" ; . And then the rest of us just had to say, well, we will pitch in to pay the monthly payment. So we all started literally with an really old Blackberry, um, < ; laugh> ; that we will type the text message and send out and start kind of creating a list. Once we hit the 500 numbers, like, you know, 500 unique phone numbers that we were now texting every weekend, sometimes multiple times in the weekend, it became really hard because a Blackberry is not designed < ; laugh> ; to send more than 500 text message at the same time. It will take us three hours. Literally, one of us will be in the phone for three hours sending text message. And then we decided, okay, that' ; s three hours is ridiculous. We can' ; t be volunteering more than that. So we kind of stop adding new numbers, but the demand, right. Amount of people that every time we send a text message, they will text back, " ; Hey, can you add my cousin? Hey, can you add my neighbor?" ; Or we will be out -- because we were putting this out of pocket and I was a student, a first-generation college student that was signing up for, or getting student loans just to pay rent. I couldn' ; t afford really an extra bill. And, you know, that was a reality for most of the folks that were doing this. Not all of us were college students, but, you know, we' ; re all struggling. We started asking our Facebook friends on our page, " ; Hey, would you all be willing to pitch in to pay the bill?" ; Right. And yes, that response from the community immediately was yes. " ; Where can I meet you to get you five bucks, ten bucks, twenty?" ; So then we started attending community events to collect a donation, but of course, as we are at the community events, people are like, " ; Oh, you' ; re with Alianza Comunitaria. Can I be added to your list?" ; And we had to say, no, we couldn' ; t. So we figured out that we needed an online system, and we did everything car washes, literally hanging out at the swap meet, just collecting donations, asking folks who were receiving our text message, who will send them a text, right. Like, " ; Hey, can you help us? Anything will help." ; And we were able to in 2013 transition to an online system that we have continued to have now for a few years. It continued to be all community funded. Now, as you know, some of us found more stability. We were paid out of pocket to continue this system. And we were able to bring in more and more numbers. So our numbers continue to grow. Every time I look at our list, it' ; s bigger. The last time I looked, it was a little over 8,000, but I don' ; t really know our exact number because people just sign up automatically on it. And our Facebook and Instagram, like I said, we get followers every weekend. Every time there is an alert that needs to go out, we get them and here and there, we will hear from community members who tell us, " ; I' ; ve been following for 10 years" ; . And the amount of trust they have on this network is to the point where we still, we get a lot of messages primarily through our social media, where folks now are sharing with us a lot of very personal information with the hope that we are gonna be able to connect them with resources. Right. So many times, I am the one connecting folks with organizations who are able to provide legal services and/or directing them in the right way to where they can find information about medical or health services. There' ; s a lot of questions around schools for their kids. So it becomes--even though we try not to promote it, ' ; cause it' ; s still volunteer run, so it' ; s capacity. It' ; s an issue. We are part of the North County community, specifically the immigrant community. So they look at us for all sorts of information. So right now, during COVID we had folks who were looking at us for resources. What can we do to help feed our families or to access the vaccine? Like a lot of folks are, um, we had questions around, Will this affect my immigration status? Or I' ; m undocumented. Can I access these resources? So we continue to do that work. And of course, our notification system continues to be up and running and just growing, even though we are trying not to grow it as much. Sheehan: That' ; s really, really incredible. You said you' ; ve seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent < ; laugh> ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don' ; t want the departments coming after me, like, you' ; re saying we' ; re violating the law. That' ; s not true. Yes. But you did at one point. < ; laugh> ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I' ; ve been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they' ; re not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there' ; s really no navigation when you' ; re being denied services, because you don' ; t have health insurance. And you' ; re not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don' ; t qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we' ; re very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Sheehan: And so what are some of the methods that you use to advocate? I know you, before you had mentioned when you were in high school and college, you had organized and been a part of protests. Is that the major way that you help advocate or -- Serrano: No, that' ; s probably the most visible one for the outside world. And definitely we continue to use public protests as a way of getting attention to the issues. But there' ; s many other ways. We ensure that my role has become being the teacher, right. Like the person that is helping community members learn how to tell their stories, because even though we know the experiences exist in the community, right. Like, I witness them sometimes, you know, like folks call me, like, I can' ; t, I need a test or even in my own family, right. My mother-in-law was in a situation a long time ago where she wasn' ; t feeling right, and she needed to get tested. And we couldn' ; t get an appointment. I, myself, I couldn' ; t sign her up anywhere because she didn' ; t have health insurance because she was undocumented. So I' ; m seeing this, I' ; m living through it, but I know that it' ; s hard for our community members to tell that story in a way that other folks are able to understand it and follow along. So I literally had taken the time to first teach folks how the laws are changed, right. Then we also take the time to see which laws need to be changed. Partner with those who have a lot more experience than myself in policy making and, you know, try to come together to create bills that we think might be able to solve the problem. And then have community members learn how to do the advocacy in the legislative process. Which means teaching them how to tell their own personal stories, accompany them to provide that testimony. What there is in a private meeting with legislators at their offices or public hearings. Like anything from public meetings, sorry, public hearings in Sacramento with our state legislators to city councils, right. A lot of times there is things city councils can be doing to improve the lives of folks, but most of us don' ; t know about it or don' ; t know how to communicate with them. I also have helped folks set up meetings or help folks set up meetings. And, at times, especially when some of these meetings are public, media has an interest. So lately that has been one of the skills I' ; ve been developing on how do we better work with media to ensure that the stories of our community members are out there and folks who might not be in our communities are aware of. Because deep in my heart, I know that people, there' ; s a lot of people that cares who just don' ; t know, they just don' ; t know what' ; s happening. So part of the advocacy is really to ensure that everybody knows what' ; s happening and how things can be fixed in a way that it will not take away from U.S. citizens. Because that' ; s not the point. The point is not to take anything away from a U.S. citizen. The point is to ensure that all of us who contribute to our community get access to the same resources. And that is the part of the work that I have been doing in terms of advocacy. And sometimes we don' ; t achieve that in a public protest, but sometimes you do, < ; laugh> ; right. So use the different tools in our toolkit for advocates. Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that' ; s going into effect in May? That' ; s a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. < ; laugh> ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That' ; s the law that I was hinting earlier < ; laugh> ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they' ; re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They' ; re not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn' ; t get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver' ; s licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don' ; t know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it' ; s illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there' ; s still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn' ; t collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you' ; d like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. < ; laugh> ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we' ; ve been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don' ; t know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn' ; t there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you' ; re Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it' ; s changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don' ; t know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you' ; re undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it' ; s almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it' ; s Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They' ; re your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they' ; re your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that' ; s what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don' ; t know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn' ; t make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people' ; s memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. " ; And how is Trump gonna use this against me?" ; , right. " ; How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?" ; And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Sheehan: And so that 45% Latino/Latina is probably on the very low side. Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: So that' ; s an incredible growth in North County. Serrano: Yes. Yes, cities like Escondido are now majority Latino with 52%. Cities like Vista and San Marcos are also very close to the 50% mark. Once again, if we were to account for the under count, it' ; s probably safe to say that they' ; re about half Latino population cities. Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . That is an incredible rate. Serrano: Yeah, it is. Sheehan: All right. And did you have anything else that you would like to share? Serrano: No, I think that' ; s all for me. Sheehan: All right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. Serrano: Yeah, no. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Serrano, Lilian. Interview April 6, 2022
Description
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Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County.
Identifier
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SC027-16
Subject
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California State University San Marcos
Community organization
Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County
Date
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2022-04-06
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video
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Oxnard (Calif.)
San Diego County (Calif.)
Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Lilian Serrano
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Lilian Serrano
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Robert Sheehan
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Latine experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Alexa Clausen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Daniel Flores Rios
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml
Interview Keyword
This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record.
Hanford, CA;Central Valley, CA;farm workers;high school drop out to work as landscape;Ocean Beach, CA;La Jolla, CA;Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper;Mexican immigrant parents;Jennie Rios labored although an amputee;Mexican Revolution about 1915-16;Mesa Community College;Mid-way Adult Education;Kodalith film;San Diego City College photography degree;William (Bill) Dendle, photography department;Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college;Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising;Times-Advocate newspaper.
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017 SC003-01 00:29:54 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Agricultural laborers -- California ; Hanford (Calif.) ; Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.) ; La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.) ; Mexican Americans ; Photojournalists Hanford, CA ; Central Valley, CA ; farm workers ; high school drop out to work as landscape ; Ocean Beach, CA ; La Jolla, CA ; Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper ; Mexican immigrant parents ; Jennie Rios labored although an amputee ; Mexican Revolution about 1915-16 ; Mesa Community College ; Mid-way Adult Education ; Kodalith film ; San Diego City College photography degree ; William (Bill) Dendle, photography department ; Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college ; Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising ; Times-Advocate newspaper. Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen .wav RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30_access.wav 1:|14(13)|26(4)|61(14)|105(9)|117(5)|146(4)|176(12)|222(10)|254(7)|305(16)|329(11)|361(13)|394(2)|421(4)|438(8)|465(8)|490(5)|512(7)|528(8)|548(14)|593(2)|612(6)|633(18)|659(11)|694(9)|707(5)|754(16)|766(4)|799(7)|828(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6530a2ec4e46f4d8911ae22577aa5093.wav Other audio English Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer.
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 ; As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate. Dan Rios: My name is Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939. Alexa Clausen: We have put together some questions. Tell us a little about your childhood, you had told us about leaving the Fresno area. DR: I was born in the Central Valley. My family were all field workers. They picked all sorts of fruits, cotton, stuff like that. The weather was miserable . The winters were freezing cold, the summers were blistering hot, and I never liked the place. So I convinced my mother and father we should move out of there. And in 1953, we moved to San Diego. Settled in Ocean Beach for a little while. Eventually we bought property in Mission Valley, had a house built. Worked with a company in La Jolla doing landscaping, gardening at the age of 14. I quit school in the middle of 8th grade. Never went back there to finish junior high or never even went to high school. I worked in La Jolla for two years for a gardening and landscaping company. AC: Now when you said they came to San Diego, you had other family here? DR: Yes, I had two aunts that lived here. That brought us here. Also had a sister who moved here prior to our moving here. We rented place on the beach, Ocean Beach right on the beach. It's called The Ocean Village, we had a little cabin there. At that point it was my father, my mother, my sister, two brothers and myself. I believe a sister too. The other two sisters had already married and moved out. AC: What did they come to do? What did mom and dad come to do? DR: (laughs) Well they came because I bugged the-- AC: Said get me out of this-- (unintelligible, Clausen and Rios talking over each other) DR: I just hated Hanford. AC: Oh I’m sorry-- DR: I dreaded--I mean we were poor, we weren't dissident, we owned our home , our own car. But it was not a good life, it was a miserable life. And I told my mother once, I said, “I know we are going to be poor the rest of our lives, why do we have to be poor and miserable too.” (laughs) I just hounded her and convinced her that we had to move out of town. And we did in 1953. AC: Right, but they knew there would be work in San Diego? DR: Yes, my brother-in-law had gotten a job with landscaping company in La Jolla and he was pretty sure that both my father and I-- AC: There was room to have you join them. DR: Yes. Right. Yes. AC: Now you know, you’re were still very young here when you’re doing the landscaping. DR: Yes, I was fourteen years old. AC: That’s sure a long cry from getting to be a, you know, quite an well-established photographer, and Lucy (Berk, a local historian who met Dan when she worked as the librarian for Times Advocate) told me also an artist, a photographer as an artist-- DR: Yes. AC: So, let's fast forward your career a little bit here. So here you are, a kid, landscaping and thinking to yourself, well what? I want to buy a camera? What do I have to do? DR: (laughs). Oh, no, no, no. I took to gardening and landscaping like a termite to wood. I loved it. I read a lot of books on it. I was very good, I was excellent at it. I had a natural sense of design, I learned thousands of plant names and fertilizers and insecticides. At the age of 16—at the age of 14, I was working three days a week at the La Jolla Art Center. Three days a week. Three full days a week. And I figured after two years of doing that, that I could take over the contract and work only three days a week making as much money as I was working five days a week. So I talked to Dr. Malone who was the director, and asked him if I could take over the job at 16 years old. And he did not laugh me away as most people would have done. He talked to the Board and they agreed. So I worked three 8-hour days, and then the other two days of the week I worked other jobs. Eventually, I worked six days a week, and I was getting a lot of contracts, a lot of work at 16, 17 years old. So then I called my father to come and help me and my business and got him away from the landscaping company. We did that for about 15 years. AC: Did you have a business name? DR: Dan Rios Complete Garden Service and Landscaping. Had no license, no insurance. (laughs) AC: But you know that was not a big deal then. DR: No it wasn’t. AC: It was simply not a big deal. Most people didn't care, and-- DR: No. Nobody questioned me. I was never stopped by the city, by the police, or anybody. But I was 16 years old, did not have a driver's license. AC: Now that was bad, that was a problem. (laughs) DR: So I went to buy a '55 Chevrolet pickup, I had the financing and everything, but I had no driver's license. So the salesman ordered me to go to National City (California), get a driver's license. AC: Down to the DMV. DR: Yes and got it. I made really, really good money. I remember. between my father and I, say in 1957 - 58 (we were) making $20,000 a year. And I researched and I found out at the time high school teachers were making $5000 a year. AC: Oh yeah you could probably buy a little home for eighteen or seventeen thousand at the time. DR: We bought a piece of land in Mission Valley for $4000. Paid that off and then we had a house built. It was a 2,000 square foot house for $10,000. The payments were $72 a month. I told my mother, “You know in ten years that’s going to be nothing. That’s going to be a drop in the bucket.” AC: And it was true. DR: Yes. Oh yeah. She died living there. She died in 1980. We built the house in '58. AC: So did she work? Did she end up-- DR: No, no, she was--not any more. She did in Hanford. She had an amputated leg and even with that she went out in the fields and pick grapes and picked cotton. And did all kinds of field work. AC: Give me your mother's name. DR: Jennie. Jennie Rios. AC: And father's name? DR: Theodore. AC: Theodore. OK. And were they from that Northern California area? DR: No, no, no. They immigrated separately to the United States during the Mexican Revolution about 1915-16. AC: I’ll be darned. DR: I think my mother was six years old. I think my father was nine years old. AC: Yeah. They came as children. DR: They crossed at El Paso. And they worked themselves--my father worked as a water-boy on the railroad tracks coming to California. My mother's father worked for a construction company building a pipeline. I haven't really researched that. She said the pipe was as big as a diameter that a man sitting on a horse could ride into the pipe. It was that huge. Eventually, the contract ended in Hemet (California). But they came through the San Jacinto Mountains. She remembered the Indians there singing and chanting. AC: There’s a number of Reservations or one or two big ones there. DR: Yes, Saboba. AC: So well we are making our way to your camera, right? So we’ve got you owning your own company, you have your father involved in your business, and you’ve got a house. DR: And a brand-new car. AC: And you are working for the La Jolla Art-- DR: Center. AC: As one of your clients. DR: Then I expanded and I had clients. I was working seven days a week, 12 hours a day. No vacations, no holidays. But it was a lot of fun, there was a lot of money coming in. And for an uneducated kid-- AC: That becomes important. DR: Yes. AC: You could finally enjoy things-- DR: In fact I'll tell you how uneducated I was: I never understood English, I never understood Math. History and other stuff like that, I could understand. When I would do a contract—an estimate, I would do all round numbers, all whole numbers. AC: Okay. DR: At one point I could not subtract 1.99 from 2.00. I had no idea (Clausen and Rios talking over each other) how to move the figures-- AC: Well, you know you were a kid that needed to get money and wanted to leave poverty. DR: Yeah, it was field work and I hated the field work. It was miserable. So even when I had my little business going, I decided--I knew a year in advance what I would be doing. I had so many contracts lined up that it became boring. The work just became boring. So I decided in 1962 to go back to night school and get my high school education. Which I did. I did in three years. I went five nights a week plus Saturdays plus TV shows--TV classes. I think I needed 32 credits to graduate, and I think I graduated with 48 credits. The counselor urged me to be class president, I did not have time for that. So then she bothered me so much, eventually I acquiesced to be Salutatorian for the high school class. AC: Oh nice. DR: When I started, I was in the 30-35% percentile. When I graduated, I was 98 percentile. It just came so easy to me. AC: And boy, you sure did the right thing to get more education. DR: More? Some education. I never had it-- AC: Well, you missed out on your childhood in a way. DR: I never had a childhood. I never had a teenage life. When we were at home working, picking, we would never start school in September. It was November. Middle of November we started. And then holidays--then Thanksgiving came, you were off two weeks, then two or three weeks, Christmas came. And we’d (not) come back until the middle of January. And then we would leave school in May. I never started school and I never ended school. AC: I had gone to the Latino Film Festival—I go every year with my friend. I can’t sit through too many movies but we saw one (film) that was a--that followed some children and their education, still today, and how the parents do yank them out of school and they’ll go to El Centro or wherever and the kids are constantly in flux. They still—happens to them, they—and then, the teachers have to try and test them and place them and it still goes on. DR: Well that was me, that was our family. We had to survive, we had to put food on the table, clothes on our backs. AC: Yeah, yeah. DR: We owned our own home, we owned our own car. There was no bills there. AC: Well that was, that was more than a lot. DR: That’s a whole lot of story, because this house we’re living in now is part of my mother's wedding present. I can go into that if you want to later on. But I never wanted—and when I had my own little business, big family gatherings at the house, we had a nice house in San Diego. A lot of family gatherings and stuff like that. But I was bored with my job 'cause I would get up 5 o’clock in the morning. Six o’clock I was out the door and I wouldn’t get back until five or six o’clock. When I started Adult School, high school, I would get home at 5 o’clock, 5:30, take a shower, have a little snack, and go to school between 6 and 9. And then get home and study until 1-2 o’clock in the morning. I would do that for-- AC: Well see you had the desire, the drive-- DR: Yeah. Five, seven days. And then eventually I stopped working Saturday, used to go to Saturday school. So I graduated and then went to college and I was going to study Civil Engineering. Because it seemed to suit me. I was good in Math, I was good in Science, I was good in Chemistry. AC: Did you start at community college? DR: Yeah. Mesa College. AC: Good school. DR: Yeah. I was there a year and a half, and I took—I was taking pretty heavy classes. I went to take an easy class, a Health Ed. class. Taught by a short, stout, female teacher. No term paper, no mid-term, no quizzes, attendance is good, class participation. The only absolute requirement, concrete--you had to have a hobby at the age of 65 and over. She said, “None of my students going out working 30-40 years, retiring and become the wife or your spouse's pain in the ass,” running the house because she has been for 30-40 years. Chauffer, bookkeeper, cook, shopper, maintenance, raising the kids. She said, “My students will not be a burden to their spouses." AC: (laughs) That is so great. DR: (laughs) You will need a hobby. And I had to prove it. And it does not include rock climbing because at 60-70 years old you’re not going to be doing any rock climbing. So in San Diego, at this here store on University where I went to, they had their camera counter right there where you walked in the front door. I’d often stopped and marveled at all these devices. I had heard about 35-millimeter (cameras), had no idea what it was. I had seen this camera with all these numbers on it. And different colored numbers. I often wondered what it all meant. Because growing up in Hanford we had no money for either film or camera or anything else, there were just no--no extras. So I decided to take a adult (continuing education) class at Mid-way Adult High School in photography. I took it for one semester. Now in college I was carrying a 3.54 average. I got involved in photography, it just overwhelmed me. I could not get enough of it. I just started buying second-hand equipment. AC: I don't know if that Adult School is still there. It was there for years. DR: Probably not. At the time I was going out with a woman who I later married. She was taking an art class and I was taking photography on Wednesdays. I got so involved with photography I started buying used equipment, new equipment when I could afford it. I would buy 100-foot rolls of film and shoot that film in one week. I was just drawn into it. AC: Wow. DR: I was just mesmerized. I couldn't get enough of it, it was like an addict. And so I built a dark room in my mother's garage. At that point I had gotten married. Built the dark room in my mother's garage, I would go in at 4-5 o’clock in the morning, process film. Start printing and proofing and looking at my clock, I would have to be at school at 9 o'clock for a class, 10 o’clock at class-- AC: I tell young people and my son, go ahead and plan and take your classes but you don’t know what’s going to come your way. Like don’t get so, you know worry, worry, where’s the job, where’s my job going to be. I said “Stop!” It may come to you and I can’t wait to tell him about--’cause I see him tomorrow, but don’t wear yourself down with worry, you don’t know the twist and turns in your life. Look at that! DR: Well, my mother had a saying that most students go to college to study to be a potato and they come out a yam. (both laugh) So my grades plummeted. I would not go to school. I would try to bone up for a test. I would not show up for class. That last semester just was a disaster. Ended up getting I think a D average. 2.0 or 1.5, 2.0 average. Then I switched college, I decided, I told my wife "I think I want to do--” One of the people, while I switched colleges to study commercial photography, and I had the fortunate-- AC: You think? DR: I had the pleasure of two teachers, and I talk about it all the time. Civil Engineering is what I really wanted to do but this photography just, as I said, I was just addicted to it. So I enrolled in this college and had Mr. Bill Dendle’s class in photography at City College and Jack Stevens who also taught the upper grades. And I was so fortunate to have Mr. Dendle as a teacher. And he would just--like an addict, just feeding me my poison with the knowledge. Oh god, he was fantastic. My first semester there, I won the Sweepstakes Award and about 30% of the ribbons because we had a photo contest among the students. And the first day of class, about 35-40 people in the class, Mr. Dendle said, “I don't care ; sit on the floor, sit wherever you want. By the end of this week there's gonna be half of you and by the of the month just going to be half of (that). At the year there will be maybe five or seven of you left.” And there were only ten of us left that started. AC: Yeah. Yeah. So he knew you had to have the passion to survive. DR: He was, he was--He had a shelf, it must have been twenty feet long by eight feet high full of photo books. And I would go ask him a question, if I had a problem or had a question, he said, “You know that it is a very good question. It's in the books here, why don't you find out. Look for it and find out the answers.” AC: Interesting. DR: And he would do that to me a lot. AC: So he knew that if you would find it for yourself, it would have more value. DR: Oh yeah. AC: And to remembering and keeping-- DR: And, one day about noon, I’d finished my work in the darkroom and he came out and says, “Are you busy right now?” I said no. At this point I was twenty-nine, no twenty-six. I always felt old in class. Kids were 17-18-19 years old. AC: Yeah. Returning students feel-- DR: I'm twenty-three, twenty-four, I’m feeling ancient. So I never mingled with students, fellow students. So he came out to lunch and says, “What are you doing?” I say, “I just finished my dark room work.” He says, “Grab a camera and load it Kodalith film and go take a picture of the quad.” I’d never heard of Kodalith film, it's a graphics arts film. Normal speed of film is 100, 400. This was 6 and I had no idea what it was. So I went and got a 4 x 5 camera, loaded it. Thought I was going to take it--I got a light meter, took it to the quad and took a light reading. It was like a five-second exposure, wide-open on the camera. So I had to go back to get a tripod, went and took the picture, five-second exposures. Back in and processed the film. And I showed it to him and says “What do you want me to do with this?” He said, “Nothing, throw it away.” I said “Well what was that all about?” He said, “Some day when you're a professional, you will be called upon to do different assignments. You better be prepared for anything that comes up.” AC: Wow. DR: We had what's called the photographers bible. It was a book, maybe 5 x 7, by maybe three inches thick with every film, every chemical, every processing imaginable. And that became my bible. I would study that thing left and right. Another thing, one year for Christmas vacation he asked me, “What are you doing for vacation?” Said not a whole lot. He says, “I want you--look up this doctor at a biology lab during Christmas vacation. Want you to shoot color slide, color negative, black and white and infrared film. Go to the doctor with it and ask him what he wants. So Christmas vacation I went, found him and he was doing an autopsy on a cadaver with about four or five students. And I had a cold that day. And they are tearing up this body apart-- AC: Oh dear god. DR: They’re just carving into him and I am taking pictures all over. And I asked the doctor, “What do you want pictures of?” He said “Dendle said you would just come over, I’ve got no use for you.” (laughs) So I shot all those four types of film. So anyway I learned the man had apparently been an alcoholic. They took out his kidneys and his liver, (unclear) cirrhosis. Little five-foot girl riding her fingers along the tendon from her toes up to his hip and I couldn’t smell anything I had a cold that day. But I found out that your hair grows after you’re dead, because the cadaver's bald and it had quarter-inch fuzz on him. And he mentioned that to the students. Which I didn’t notice. His hair keeps on growing. AC: And you had that-- DR: And the fingernails-- AC: On the photo. Lucky you! DR: Yeah right. So after Christmas break I took it all to Dendle, all the proof sheets and all the negatives and everything. “Here's the—what do you want me to do with them?” He said, “Throw them away, I don't want ‘em! I don’t even want to see them.” But that was another lesson in that you’re going to be called upon to do—you don't know what you will be called upon to do. And his advice to me was curiosity. Never lose your curiosity. It will take you through-- AC: You think about journalism and for newspapers, yeah I mean you could-- DR: But I didn't study for newspapers. AC: No, no, I know-- DR: I studied for commercial photography. AC: But he had instincts that you—he didn’t know where you ended up. AC: So he wanted to give you like the worst-case scenario. DR: Right. yeah he wanted to prepare me for whatever came. So he came to me second semester, I think. He said, “How would you like a job working in a photo studio? They don't pay much, a dollar and half an hour. But you work any hours you want. Yopu work weekends, nights, whatever. You get the use of all the cameras, all their equipment, all their paper, everything.” Which was at the time photography was the second most expensive class in college. The first expensive class was welding. So I took that job for a photographer named Bob Boyd, who was another teacher, another instructor. The man was a phenomenal photographer. He worked for Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising Agency. So I did all his processing, all his pictures. I sent out the color stuff to the labs, but everything else I did. I printed all my stuff, I shot all my assignments in the studio. And like I said, I had just got married. Second--the third semester, Mr. Dendle came up to me and says “How would you like a job on a cruise ship?“ I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “The Director of the Seven Seas College—Seven Seas University? College. They are touring East China, Japan, Vietnam, going down to Australia and up to North Africa for nine months. No pay. Room and Board, but you can take any class you want. Any you're gonna be the ship's photographer. You can take pictures of whatever anyone wants, of anything. You can take classes of anything you want.” AC: Now at this time you had closed down your landscaping (business) or were you still-- DR: No. AC: Did you turn it over to your dad? DR: I had. I gave up most of the contracts. I saved some for my dad to work three--four days a week, three days a week at the most. He was getting ready to retire on Social Security. AC: But for your own income? DR: I worked weekends and in the photo lab. AC: So you are still doing both. DR: Yes. So I had just gotten married and I didn't think it was good to leave my new wife. AC: For nine months. DR: And my stepson. He was five years old. For nine months and with no income. No money coming in. So I didn't do that. But my last year, Bob Boyd who used to do filming, used to do commercials in San Diego, plus professional photography, commercial, helped him out a lot--asked me to go up to Hayward, California with him for a week. Now this is toward the end of the semester. To do a job up there, film developer for a week. So I talked to Mr. Dendle, and he said, “Yeah go ahead, no problem. Your year is completed, get out of here.” So I did. And I completed my classes there and I started looking for work. I had my brochure. I had my—what they call a—my book. They had a name for it. With some of my best photography. AC: Like a portfolio? DR: A brag. Called it a brag book. AC: Oh okay. DR: And I had it, put photos back-to-back in a binder – drill holes and put a All of my best photography was in there. My good photos were back to back in a binder—drill holes and put a spiral backing on it. I went all over town looking for work. Commercial studios, portrait studios, advertising agencies, all over town. And they all said the same thing. Your stuff is really, really good, but you don't have any experience. Go out and get a job for a year and come back. So it was at this time that one of the salesman for a commercial photography sales came in. I asked him if he knew of anyone who wanted a photographer, I says I’m looking for a job. He said, “As a matter of fact, I came from Escondido and they are looking for a photographer in the Escondido newspaper.” AC: Perfect. DR: They got a newspaper in Escondido? (laughs) I had no idea, 'cause I was just San Diego. Had the San Diego Union, Evening Tribune. So on Sunday, we drove up here and got a newspaper from the stand. And they (San Diego Union) had gone letter press and they (Escondido Times-Advocate) were still using virgin paper. No recycled stuff. And It was bright white. And the type was just--and the printing was just amazing. I couldn’t believe it. And the photography! The pictures looked like they were actual photographs. AC: You could cut them out and-- DR: And I was used to the letter press in San Diego and I couldn’t believe they had the offset press over here. Said, “oh my god!” And the town was little, I think the town (Escondido) was maybe only twenty-thousand at the time, 20-25,000. AC: You know this is a great place to stop, are we good to stop? DR: Oh yeah, sure. Sure, yeah. AC: Wonderful. I’m gonna hit stop. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. 
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Title
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Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017.
Description
An account of the resource
Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer.
As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate.
Identifier
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SC003-01
Subject
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Agricultural laborers -- California
Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.)
Mexican Americans
Photojournalists
Date
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2017-03-30
Format
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audio
Creator
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Daniel Flores Rios
Contributor
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Alexa Clausen
Coverage
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Escondido (Calif.)
Hanford (Calif.)
La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.)
Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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California State University San Marcos
Community history
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-
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Jennifer Ho
Interviewee
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Dennis "Dizzy" Doan
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.xml
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Vietnamese American identity;tattoo artistry;philanthropy;immigration;community
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6.0 Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023. SC027-110 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity ; tattoo artistry ; philanthropy ; immigration ; community Dennis "Dizzy" Doan Jennifer Ho moving image DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/30cd38c20fdc6dece2f45114880a90f4.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Dennis “Dizzy” Doan, March 6, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 27 Growing up and family life Dennis talks about his childhood growing up in Linda Vista (San Diego), and describes his family, including his brother’s significant role in his upbringing. Saginaw, Michigan ; Saigon ; Danang, Vietnam ; Orange County ; Section 8 housing ; Kung Fu ; Chinese lion dancing ; City Heights ; Mira Mesa ; Pho Hoa ; Pho Hoa Hiep ; Vien Dong ; Thuan Phat ; Rite Aid ; Thrifty ; University of San Diego ; Kearny High Schol ; Scripps Ranch High School ; Montomery Middle School ; Taft Middle School ; Sharp Hospital 0 1031 Mom and brother Dennis talks about the departure of his mother and his brother when he was young, and why they left, as well as the effect their departure had on him. alcoholism ; Washington, D.C. ; hunger ; Costco ; KFC 0 1596 Life lessons and starting out as a tattoo artist In this segment, Dennis shares the lesson he has learned about dependency, and how it has carried him through a successful career. He reflects on early days of learning how to run a business. Dennis shares the story of how he became a tattoo artist, first as a teenager working from his home and then as a business partner before opening his own studio. business venture ; U.S. Marshalls ; Mission Valley Mall ; Michael's ; Louis Vuitton ; Criagslist ; MySpace ; Baby Bash ; Peckerwoods ; Aryan Brotherhood ; Linda Vista ; Kearny Mesa ; Clairemont Mesa Boulevard ; Absolute Tattoo ; Chula Vista ; City Heights, Asian Business Center ; Black Lotus 0 2923 Black Lotus Tattoo & ; Social Club Dennis talks about his third and current shop, Black Lotus. health inspectors 0 3031 Education and career goals In this segment, Dennis discusses his time in grade school and at San Diego State University, and his career objectives at the time. AP English ; Emily Walker ; Asian Studies ; the Philippines 0 3486 Family and community responses Dennis talks about his family’s reaction to him dropping out of school and becoming a tattoo artist. He shares the story of how they found out he had tattoos. He also talks about the response from the Vietnamese community and tattooing community. Vietnamese Boy Scouts ; Vietnamese lion dancing ; Asian tattoo artists 0 3799 Hate is a Virus Dennis talks about “Hate is a Virus,” the project that brought him a windfall of attention during Covid. Covid-19 ; Pennsylvania ; Temple University 0 4195 Vietnam and relationship with Mom Dennis discusses his past trips to Vietnam and the first time his mom saw his tattoos. He talks about his relationship with her and with his family. Taipei ; traditional Vietnamese family 0 4563 Vietnamese identity Dennis talks about whether he identifies as a Vietnamese or American person, and how this is influenced by where someone grows up. He also talks about how people see him. Orange County ; Napa Valley ; San Jose ; Montana ; Filipinos ; Tagalog ; Chinese ; City Heights ; Chinese lion dance ; Tet 0 4767 Ambition and fatherly relationship Dennis talks about the time of day he is most productive. He discusses his motivation and ambition, and how his mother is similar. He also talks about his relationship with his father and how it has evolved through the years. Mira Mesa ; lion dance ; Vietnamese Student Association ; University of California San Diego 0 5583 Asian and Black community relationships Dennis discusses the relationship between the Asian and Black communities. He also talks about his foundation’s service to people of any race, and the competition for funding between Vietnamese-serving non-profits. George Floyd ; non-profit organizations ; City Heights ; Orange County ; San Diego ; Utah 0 6028 The Doan Foundation The Doan Foundation
 ; Dennis talks about the Doan Foundation, including how he got it started, its accomplishments and his vision for its future. 
 ; Thao Ha ; educational scholarships ; Multicultural Fair ; Linda Vista ; Convoy district ; Asian Pacific Islander Coalition ; Cross Street Chicken and Beer ; Nguyet Pham ; Viet Vote ; Oceanside Southern California API Festival ; Ronald McDonald House Charities 0 7006 Changes in the tattoo industry Dennis talks about how the tattoo industry has evolved. He discusses changes in technical skills, opportunity and exposure. He also discusses the role of apprenticeships. tattoo technology ; portfolio ; YouTube ; mentoring ; U.S. Navy 0 7378 Values and mentorship Dennis discusses his values as a mentor, as well as how he stays focused and grounded in all of his ventures. He also talks about how he declines customer ideas for bad tattoos. growth ; problem solving ; tattoo styles ; time management ; customer service 0 7853 Speaking truth and meeting expectations Dennis talks about speaking with openness and truth, including the mental process involved in writing his memoir. He discusses his need to meet the high expectations he has for himself and how that was instilled in him by his brother. philanthropy ; writing ; community 0 8453 Work ethic, culture and the future Dennis talks about his consistent work ethic, the pride he feels in creating his non-profit, and the difficulty of maintaining one’s culture. He talks about his new granddaughter and what he wants for her future. financial education ; language loss ; diversity ; Balboa Park ; AAPI movement ; Black pride 0 9013 Jobs and careers for students Dennis shares his vision of creating a career fair in which students learn about careers that are not normally discussed. He also talks about his brother’s work at the Linda Vista Public Library and reminisces on minimum wage in the mid-1990s. employment and careers ; libraries 0 Oral history Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 All right. (Claps.) Today is March 6th, 2023. This is Jennifer Ho, and I’m interviewing Dennis “Dizzy” Đoàn (Dennis “Dizzy” Doan) for the Children of Refugees, the Vietnamese American Oral History Project. Thanks for being with me today, Dennis. How are you doing? (both laugh) All right. Let’s just start. (both laugh) Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:31.000 I was born in 1990, in Saginaw, Michigan. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.000 And what brought your family to Michigan? 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:55.000 Um, my uncle at the time, my uncle was just coming over here from Việt Nam (Vietnam). He had worked for Vietnamese Intelligence in the past. He was my dad’s oldest brother. And I guess my family finally made the leap. Because they stayed there during the aftermath of the war, which it was really surprising for me to learn that, because a lot of people left during the war, immediately after. But my grandma was a Vietnam War nurse. So, my dad’s whole family from Đà Nẵng (Da Nang) eventually went to Sài Gòn (Saigon) to pretty much be close to my mom’s family because my mom is from Saigon. So, I guess things were more peaceful there. Because they were pretty much getting hunted up there in Da Nang. My dad’s dad was a police captain for the South, who often went to the North to infiltrate their military. So, he was in prison pretty much most of his life. So, my dad was raised by his stepdad. So, it’s a crazy family timeline because my dad has like four stepdads and he’s the middle child. So, all his siblings after, they’re the only ones who have the same dad, who I grew up thinking was my paternal grandfather. But I found out he wasn’t later. So— 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.000 When did you find out? 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:40.000 I—Well, I grew up knowing I had a ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather) and I had two ông nộis (ong noi, paternal grandfathers, Vietlish), but I didn’t know why, you know what I mean? There was ong noi Chan (note: spelling is unknown) , which was—We went to go see him like once in a blue moon. He lived in Orange County. But my regular ong noi, who I refer to as he basically raised me, you know, and that was my dad’s stepdad. But I didn’t know that until later on. And I was like “Okay. So, that’s why I have two grandpas on dad’s side.” Because, you know, my dad was pretty much estranged from his real father. But we still, you know, we still went to go see him and visit and see if he was okay and what not. Because he came over here later, like ’94, ’95 or something. Yeah. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:46.000 Okay. How did you find out about your two ong nois? 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.000 Well, just eavesdropping— (laughs) 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.000 Oh really? 00:02:48.000 --> 00:03:13.000 —on the family. No, because my brother—I mean, my brother was there for all that. He’s twelve years older than me. So, he was twelve when they came here to America. So, listening to him talk to my mom, here and there, I finally kind of put two and two together. As I grew up, I understood more of like the dynamic of, you know, marriage and things like that. Divorce, separation. Yeah. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, tell me about your family and the people who raised you. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:04:13.000 My parents—Well, my brother actually was the one who pretty much raised me. Because my parents were always working. When they first came here, my mom worked as a seamstress for a little bit. And then went on to do nails like every other Vietnamese mom. My dad was going to school for a little bit to learn enough English just to get around, and then from there he went on to work as, it was like doing assembly line stuff for a hardware company, which he’s still there today. Yeah. But they were gone usually from eight to eight every day. So, my brother would be back and forth. Sometimes, he would have to take me to work with him. Sometimes, he’d take me to school with him. But, yeah, it was pretty much me and him for most of my life until he left when I was about twelve years old to go to medical school. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:17.000 Wow. Okay. So, was this in Michigan? Or in San Diego? 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:24.000 No, it was in San Diego. Yeah, we came to San Diego in, I think, like 1991, right after I was born. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.000 Oh. Okay. So, you were just a baby. 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:45.000 Yeah, because my grandma had a sister in here, and then she had family in Orange County as well. So, they decided to come here because the climate was a lot more similar to Vietnam, and, you know, Michigan’s crazy. It has crazy weather. So, yeah. So, that’s why they over here and settled here. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.000 Okay. Have you been to Michigan? 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.000 Nope. (chuckles) 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.000 Okay. Okay. I was going to ask you how you think you would have been different if you were raised there. 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Well, I hear stories. I mean, my brother and my cousin, they were the only minorities at their whole school. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Yeah. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000 Like the only minorities, period. 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Period. Yeah. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000 Oh, wow! Okay. Was it like— 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:08.000 Everyone else was white. Yeah, and some Blacks, some Black people. But that’s it. 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.000 Okay. Was it like a suburb, suburban area? 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.000 I don’t know. I don’t know. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Okay. You were a baby, so— 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.000 Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:23.000 —okay. Okay. Cool. So, you were raised primarily by your brother because your parents were at work a lot. 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Yes. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Can you tell me more about your childhood? Like what did you do for fun? What did you eat? Who prepared your meals? Who were your friends? Like what comes to mind when you think about your childhood? 00:05:35.000 --> 00:07:14.000 Um, my childhood was, I think it was good. Because I was surrounded by a lot of family, in regards to - I had a lot of cousins that came here from Vietnam. They ended up living with us for a while. And I had cousins from France that would come every summer and hang out. It was very diversified, you know. My friends—I had Mexican friends, Black friends, white friends, whatever. Because when you’re young, you don’t really think about, you know, differentiation in that regard, you know. Um, but pretty much I was either playing outside or I was in the house building something with cardboard boxes, you know. We were poor so we didn’t have too much. I guess at the time I didn’t realize how poor we were. But you don’t really have anything to compare that to. So, we appreciate it regardless, you know. Because they would take me to—After I’d get a shot, my dad would take me to go to like the 99-cent store or something, to get a toy, and I’d be like “Oh, wow!” But it was cool. I feel like back then, I guess society looked out for each other a lot more. Everyone in my apartment complex kind of looked after each other’s kids. You know, when all the kids were playing outside, there was always a parent that was kind of monitoring them. Whenever I didn’t have a key to get into the house, I would just go downstairs to the manager’s office, and they would just come up and open it for me. We could leave our doors unlocked. It was more of a community. Nowadays, everyone’s kind of scared of everything and, you know, parents are overprotective because, you know, everything going on in the world. So, yeah. Things were a lot different, I guess you could say. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:25.000 Okay. I want to hear more about your apartment complex. Like that’s a really—It sounds like a really tight-knit community. So, how did you—Were they other Vietnamese people? Or— 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:48.000 No. It was everybody. I mean, the only thing everyone had in common was we were all pretty—on Section 8. Pretty much, you know. So, we looked out for each other. Yeah, so a little bit of everybody. People would—I had kids come to my house and I’d go to their house. There was no like judgment, nothing within like our little community, you know. It’s like a big melting pot, pretty much. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.000 That’s nice. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:56.000 Yeah. So, what else? I was going to talk about something else. (chuckles) 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.000 Um, your neighbors, community, looking out for each other. 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:11.000 Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we used to play outside. I’d play football and whatnot. My brother would only let me play outside for one hour a day. So, I had to, you know, make the best of it. (chuckles) 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.000 Why did he only let you play outside for an hour? 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:27.000 Well, he was a little more strict than my parents even were. Because they wanted me to focus on my homework, studying. I didn’t get to watch TV for more than an hour a day. And I didn’t get to play outside for more than one hour a day. Yeah. (laughs) 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Wow. Okay. 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:46.000 Yep. It was pretty wild, like the way that he basically molded me. I mean, it’s good. Looking back on it, it helped me develop into who I am discipline-wise. At the time, you know, I hated it. So— 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Yeah. Of course. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:52.000 Yeah. But I’d always try to get around it. You remember how the TVs back then were like glass? 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.000 Yeah. 00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:06.000 With a giant tube? So, whenever he was gone, I’d always try to sneak in like some cartoons or something, and he’d always come home and he’d be like, “Oh, you were watching TV, huh?” And I’d be like, “No.” But, you know, there’s like static on there. The whole thing is hot. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.000 It’s warm. Mm-hmm. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:28.000 But when you’re little, you don’t think about that. So, he knows. I was like, “Man, this guy knows everything.” So, when I played outside too, if I’m sweating or whatever, he’ll know. But yeah. He was just—he wanted me on the right path, I guess you could say. He didn’t want me to get the wrong influences around me. Yeah. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:35.000 So, it sounds like your brother might have had some of that kind of fear, I guess you could say, that we have today as parents. 00:09:35.000 --> 00:10:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s because he had two worlds to compare to each other, like his life in Vietnam versus life here. And he’s seen like the worst in humanity in both places, you know? So, he just wanted to protect me from that. He used to teach Kung Fu, and Chinese Lion Dancing at the library, because he worked there, and he also ran that program for them. And he would never allow any of his students to cuss around me. And they couldn’t talk about like bad things, all those types. So, he’s very, very protective, you know. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.000 Wow! 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.000 Yeah. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.000 Um, and what neighborhood did you grow up in, in San Diego? 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:20.000 I grew up in Linda Vista. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:20.000 In Linda Vista. Okay. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:45.000 So, at the time, in the early ‘90s, that’s where like all the Vietnamese people were. Pretty much. It was like its own little community. There’s the Vietnamese market there. The first Vietnamese restaurants were there. There and City Heights were kind of blooming at the same time. And it’s only later that it started to work its way up to Mira Mesa. Yeah. 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Okay. So, tell me like what are some of the places you would go in Linda Vista? Like what restaurants would you go to or what little shops or like playgrounds? 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:05.000 There’s Phở Hòa (Pho Hoa). We used to go there a lot. I used to go to the thrift store a lot, which is not there anymore. 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.000 Is the phở (pho) place there still? 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.000 The pho place is still there. My dad’s friend actually owns it now . 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.000 Okay. So, a different ownership. 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:24.000 Yeah. Yeah. There’s a place called Phở Hòa Hiểp (Pho Hoa Hiep). That’s still there. Viễn Đông Supermarket (Vien Dong Supermarket), which is now Thuận Phát Supermarket (Thuan Phat Supermarket) is there. Yeah. And then Rite-Aid used to be Thrifty. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:25.000 Right! 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000 And there’s a bunch of little Vietnamese gift shops there, to buy like cheap clothes and whatnot. But we were at the thrift store a lot. I remember that. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.000 Okay. Why was that? 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.000 That’s where we got all the clothes and everything. Yep. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.000 Okay. The thrift store’s not there anymore, you said. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:54.000 No. It’s not. It’s—I don’t know what it is now, actually. There’s a supermarket in front of it, and then I think it’s like some type of freaking—they’re turning it into some type of plaza or something. It was a big, big thrift store. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Is it in the same shopping center as the Vien Dong was? 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.000 No. It’s like kind of across the street. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.000 Okay. 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:08.000 On the side. I know they’re building apartments over there now, too. They’re gentrifying the whole area because it’s close to USD (University of San Diego) . 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:09.000 Okay. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:15.000 So, you know, prices are skyrocketing. It used to be like the ghetto. Now, there’s homes that are selling for 1.2 mill. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Wow. In Linda Vista. That’s hard to imagine. And does your dad still live there? 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.000 No, he lives in Mira Mesa now. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.000 Okay. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:58.000 Yeah. Well, when I was—Until the age of four, I was growing up in like the really bad side of Linda Vista. But my mom got so tired of it. I remember she and I ended up walking around the whole neighborhood and then we walked like an hour, forty-five minutes to an hour, towards the other direction, like the beginning of Linda Vista on the other end. And she finally found an apartment complex that she thought was okay. And that’s the one that I’m referring to when I talk about the community and everything. 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:02.000 Okay. Is that apartment building still there? 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:03.000 Yeah. It’s still there. It’s called Mesa Vista. 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.000 Mesa Vista. 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:06.000 Yeah. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.000 Okay. Do you know if any of your old neighbors still live there? 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.000 Mmm, one of them do, that I know of. She’s my client, too, so— 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:14.000 Oh, okay. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:15.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.000 Is that how she found you? Or was it a coincidence? 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:53.000 So, I lived there for a while. I lived there until I was maybe, I think, seventeen, seventeen or eighteen. And I moved. I moved to Mira Mesa, and then I eventually came back again. So, that’s when I met that neighbor. Because my car actually got hit behind her house, or her apartment. So, when my car got hit, she contacted one of my friends that lived in the apartment. And they contacted me. And then that whole thing got resolved. But that’s how I met her. And, you know, it’s been cool since. She’s been my client ever since. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.000 Okay. Good. 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.000 Yeah. Everything kind of connects. It’s weird. 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed that too. Okay. And where did you go to high school? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.000 Kearny High School. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:11.000 Okay. Any good memories there? Or any memories at all? Did you do okay? 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:17.000 I wasn’t supposed to go there. My brother was actually really adamant on me going to Scripps. 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Scripps? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Ranch. Scripps Ranch. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.000 Oh. Okay. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Yeah. Because he went there. He was the first full graduating class of Scripps Ranch. Back then, they used to, you know, bus them from Linda Vista up to there. Because they had like their magnet program and all that. But I don’t know. I just—It wasn’t for me. Freshmen year of—huh? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:38.000 What wasn’t for you? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Just like traveling back and forth. You know, yeah. And I was already—I felt like I was distancing myself from my neighborhood when I moved to the other side of Linda Vista, you know? If I was to go to school in a totally different area, then it would be worse. It was kind of a weird dynamic. Because you had the really hood-hood kids on one side and, you know, you had to earn your respect from those kids if you were like anywhere else in the area. You know what I mean? 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.000 So, you were one of those hood-hood kids and then you left. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:28.000 Yes. Yes. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Okay. So, did people look at you differently after you left? 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:39.000 Yes. So, when I went to middle school, I had to go back to that neighborhood. Yeah. Because it was on the other side, by Vien Dong and stuff. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Okay. What’s the name of that school? 00:15:41.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Montgomery Middle School. Mm-hmm. So, I had to—you know, I would to go to my cousin’s house who lived nearby in the morning. I would walk to school, and then after school, I walked to my cousin’s and then I’d get picked up and go home. Yeah. Because if I was to walk home, it’d take me an hour. Right? So, I’d have to wait for my dad to pick me up. But yeah. It was different. Yeah. I kept going back and forth, mentally, in terms of how, like survival mode versus non-survival mode. Because when I went to school in the nice area, the elementary school there, everything was great. There was a mixture of kids and everything. And then I’d go to this school and there was nothing but gangs and, you know, it’s like all minorities. There’s no balance of anything. And the teachers, they didn’t really care because they were kind of fed up with everything. There was, there were girls that were twelve years old, pregnant. All kinds of stuff. Yeah. So, it was a different shift. 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:44.000 Okay. So, I’m kind of—Was there a middle school in your new area? Is that why you had to go to Montgomery? 00:16:44.000 --> 00:17:06.000 I lived in a weird—like there was weird boundaries. So, I couldn’t—There was a school in Clairemont called Taft that was, you know, zoned differently or something. So, all the people that lived kind of like by Sharp Hospital or something would go to Taft, but my side had to go to Montgomery. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:11.000 Okay. I was going to say I’m kind of surprised that your mom left that neighborhood only for you to have to come back to school. 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:22.000 Yeah. Well, my mom actually left when I was twelve, too. So, that changed the whole dynamic of everything as well. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Okay. So, your brother left and then she left. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Yep. They both kind of left at the same time. 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Okay. Was that related? 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:44.000 No. Well, yes and no. My dad was an alcoholic for most of my life. So, I guess, well, my brother had to leave because he went to medical school. And then my mom left soon after that because she was just fed up, you know. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 With? 00:17:45.000 --> 00:19:20.000 With my dad’s alcoholism and, you know, verbally abusiveness and physical. And I guess she thought at the time that I was finally old enough to understand or something? So, you know, yeah, I remember because she usually stays home on Mondays. So, there was one Monday I walked home from school. And she usually cooks me like some random dish on Mondays so when I get home, I could eat it. And she’ll go do her errands or something. But that day I walked in, and I didn’t see anybody. So, I was like “What’s going on?” So, I went to her room, and I didn’t see anyone there. And I went to her closet. And I didn’t see any of her clothes. So, I was like, “Okay, maybe she went to Vietnam and forgot to tell me or something.” So, I walked to—I tried calling her and she wouldn’t pick up. And I walked to her best friend’s house which was in the same apartment complex as well, about like three, four doors down. And she opened the door, and I asked her. I’m like “Oh, where’s my mom?” And she’s like “Oh, I don’t know. I haven’t heard from her.” I’m like “Okay.” So, I went back, and I called my brother. I’m like, “Dude, where’s mom?” And he was like “I don’t know. What happened?” And I was like “I don’t know. No one’s here. And all her stuff is gone.” And he was like “Okay.” So, I was just sitting there, not knowing what was going on. And then, of course, my dad went drinking that night, right? So, when he came back, I was kind of freaking out because, you know, he was going to get mad and then go crazy. But, you know, he was so drunk when he got back, he didn’t even realize she was gone, ‘til the next morning. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.000 Wow. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Yeah. Yep. So, next morning, I talked to him. He was like “Where’s your mom?” And I’m like “I have no clue.” But she didn’t contact me until maybe three weeks later to tell me that she moved to Washington, D.C., or something—I think it was D.C. at the time, yeah. And then she asked me to come with her or to go over there. And in my mind, that would have been the easier thing to do because, you know, my dad’s great but he has no clue what he’s doing when it comes to being like a single parent, you know. Because I was with my mom most of the time. So, I told her, I’m like “I want to, but I don’t think I can. Because if I do, like dad’s not going to have anything left and then he’s just going to, you know, that’s going to be the end for him, you know what I mean?” So, I’m like “I’ll just take it, and I’ll stay.” So, I stayed and, you know, he was going through his depression for a while. Like at that age, you know, he would go to work, come back, drink. He would just do the same thing every day. He barely ate —He would eat like a little bit of pho every night, some chips or something. And then just drink, you know. And when I’d get home—It came out on paper they weren’t separated or anything. So, you know, we were still paying like full amount of rent or whatnot, with the Section 8. I had to lie to my grandparents and my whole family. I had to tell them that my mom went to go work somewhere else for, temporarily, to get money or something. So, I had to lie to them for like six, seven years. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:21:00.000 Wow! To your ong noi and bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother)? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Mm-hmm. So, that’s how long my dad tried to hide it. My grandma wasn’t dumb though. She was still—she was only like seventy at the time. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 And they were nearby? 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:42.000 They were—At the time, they were. They eventually moved back to Orange County. But they knew. Because my mom was close to them, too, you know. And she talked to them eventually. But my dad’s youngest sister was the one who knew like everything because my mom was really close to her. And she was the one housing my brother while he was in medical school, as well. So, you know, he was working. He was doing what he could. You know, he would give me maybe like twenty bucks a week or something. Because he wasn’t—He didn’t cook anymore. He didn’t do anything, you know. So, most of those days were spent me coming home from school and he would be like just “Oh, just find something to eat.” And I’m like “Okay.” (chuckles) 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.000 What would you find? 00:21:45.000 --> 00:23:04.000 Nothing. I just—Just whatever. It’s like I used to, you know—Me and my friend would go to like the—I knew that KFC threw out their food at night, at the end of the night. So, I had a friend that worked there, so she would give me some of the food. And I used to steal food from 7-11 all the time. I used to just go to my cousin’s house and act like everything’s cool. I didn’t want to make my dad look bad either. So, I couldn’t, you know, scavenge all their food. But my aunt eventually—My dad’s sister eventually like caught on. And every time I’d go up there to see my brother for the weekend, she would just go to Costco and just buy me a bunch of stuff so I could take it home. And, you know, she was the only one that really like knew what was going on. Because my mom would tell her everything was cool. Every day—I mean, she was calling me pretty often and she would be like “Oh, did you eat today?” And I’d be like “yeah, I did.” Or whatever. But yeah. It was an interesting time. Because I couldn’t—I was trying not to make anyone look bad, you know what I mean? But I was suffering while I was doing it, you know. Because when I would go to my cousin’s house in the morning, I was so hungry, but I couldn’t eat too much or else they would know something’s going on. But yeah, I couldn’t say anything. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.000 That’s a lot for a twelve-year-old to carry. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:10.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.000 So, how did this affect your schooling? Like I bet you were hungry when you went to school. 00:23:15.000 --> 00:24:04.000 Well, I used to take—Well, I had a free lunch. So, I would go there for a lunch, breakfast. Sometimes, I would take the food home with me. And people would give me food if they weren’t eating it or whatever. I’d put it in my backpack and just save it for later, you know. But I don’t think it affected me as much because most of the kids around me were going through similar things. You know what I mean? Like I had a friend—me and him, whenever we could find like fifty cents, we would put it together, get one like of those chicken snacker at KFC. At that time, it was a dollar. So, we’d get that, and we’d split it or something, you know. But yeah, we were going through the same things. So, maybe I didn’t feel like it was as significant because of that. But now, looking back, obviously you’re like “Oh. That was pretty bad.” (chuckles) 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.000 Yeah. It didn’t hit you until later. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.000 Uh-huh. Yeah. Because there was nothing to compare it to. You know what I mean? 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. It was just your life. 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.000 Yeah. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.000 So, have you like worked through all of that, like emotionally? 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.000 I think so. 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:20.000 Have you been to therapy? 00:24:20.000 --> 00:25:03.000 It took me a long time to get over the whole not having mom around thing. I was—It was kind of like a self-therapy that I went through. I was with a lot of different women in my life because, you know, I tried to fill that void. But there was, you know, at one point, I was like okay. I need—I had to analyze what was really going on. I had to analyze what I wanted and what I needed and why I needed it, you know? And, yeah, as I grew up and my career bloomed and I had something else to focus on, I was able to reflect more on it and kind of dissect it and kind of finally make peace with it, you know what I mean? 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:04.000 Have you made peace with it? 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:22.000 Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I started writing my book and everything. It’s finally time to like go back and kind of pinpoint those things and analyze it while I’m writing so that, you know, the next person who’s going through the same thing can, you know, take something from it. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.000 Yeah. Is there anybody that’s helping you analyze? 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.000 Mmm, no. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Okay. It’s just you with your thoughts. 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000 I have a crazy brain. So— (chuckles) 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.000 Okay. Tell me more about that. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:26:22.000 Just I just feel like I met so many different people as a tattoo artist. And I’ve helped them through so much. And I’ve also learned a lot through them and their mistakes as well. So, I’ve lived through everyone else’s mistakes as well as my own. And I’ve gained the knowledge through all of it as well. You know what I mean? So, I don’t know. I have a weird way of reading people, certain scenarios, things. I’m very content with—I don’t know how to explain this. I’m very content with my thoughts now. I’m very content with how things are. And I’m ready to basically proceed to the next thing, you know what I mean? 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:32.000 Yeah. Okay. Wow. That’s quite a journey. So, you were in survival mode before. Do you ever feel like you’re in survival mode now? 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:35.000 I think it’s just—You mean like financially? Or— 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.000 I don’t know. Anything. 00:26:36.000 --> 00:28:12.000 Oh, okay. Well, you know what. I learned at a very early age that I can’t depend on anybody. It’s good and it’s bad, you know. I’m not good at delegating. I’m not good at trusting people to do certain things with other responsibilities. So, I put all that pressure on myself. And, you know, if let’s say we want to start a business venture, I would have to know every micro detail about that business, how to run it from the taxes to the promo to the just every day, daily operations. I want to know everything. So, it’s a lot of pressure because I have to know so much that I just can’t focus on, you know, growing a company or something. So, it definitely takes longer to excel in multiple aspects of something rather than just to focus on specializing in that, you know. But it’s worth it in the end because no one can stop you, you know. If everyone were to leave—Like say you had twenty employees and they all leave, you’ll still be able to run it yourself. Versus you depending on all twenty of those people to do, to delegate something to. Whenever one piece of the puzzle is missing, you’re in panic mode, you know. So, I’ve made it a point not to put myself in that position ever again. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think just recently I figured that out. Maybe, I don’t know, five, six years ago. Yeah. 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.000 And it seems like it has worked well for you. Your business seems to be successful. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:47.000 Yeah, yeah. I’m content. I’m running things the way I want it. I had a business partner before. But I learned—That was like the last straw, where I learned that I have to do things myself, you know. Because when you don’t know where the money’s going, when you don’t know how to do one thing or another, you know, you get taken advantage of in one way or another. So, you gotta look out for yourself in that aspect. 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000 Okay. Did you get taken advantage of by your partner? 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:54.000 Mmm, in a sense. In a sense. But I made up for it, you know what I mean? 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.000 What do you mean you made up for it? 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:58.000 Well, when you’re really young and you don’t know which direction to go —I met him when I was nineteen. So, when you’re really young, you don’t know which direction to go. You kind of look, you know, you look to someone older who has experience to kind of guide you through that, you know. And sometimes you get too dependent on that person. And you end up losing sight of the amount of work one person is doing versus another. And then, if you don’t say anything, it just keeps going and going. But in your mind, you want to be loyal, and you want to be a good business partner. So, you just stay quiet, and you ride it through and hope that things will balance out eventually. But then, there comes a point where you’re working yourself to the ground and you can see that things aren’t balanced, where you gotta cut it off, you know, however painful that may be. In the long run, it’s the better option, you know, for you and for whoever is working for you. 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.000 And has it been better for you after all? 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:23.000 Yeah. Yeah. Things are a lot smoother. I mean it’s always better to have one perspective and one goal, or one person’s goal, rather than multiple people, you know what I mean? It gets confusing for the business and for the people who work for the business, and the customers, you know. 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:29.000 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that singular vision is really important, so you all know exactly where you’re headed. 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:34.000 And at least if you make a mistake and you fail, you know that it’s your failure. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000 Mm-hmm. Can’t blame anyone else. 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000 Yeah. Mm-hmm. 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:45.000 Mmm. Okay. Um, okay. There’s so, like there’s so much I want to ask you. 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.000 I know. My life is a roller coaster. So, it’s everywhere. 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.000 Yeah. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000 Yeah. 00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:34.000 I want to hear about your path to your career as a tattoo artist. I know you have a new, newish non-profit venture. And I want to know about that as well. But tell me about how you became a tattoo artist. 00:31:34.000 --> 01:31:05.000 Okay. So, this is going to be a long story. 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:07.000 Okay. 01:31:07.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Um, so, you know, I grew up in like a semi-ghetto neighborhood. So, there’s a lot of guys with tattoos and whatnot walking around. And my brother’s, some of my brother’s friends have tattoos. He had none though. But, you know, they were still considered very taboo within our community at the time. Because even though we were—the Vietnamese community was in San Diego, it was still nothing but Vietnamese people there. So, they spoke Vietnamese. They had the same values, tradition, and perceptions. So, we were always taught, “Oh, this guy has tattoos. He’s no good. Probably just got out of jail,” or whatever. Things changed as I got older because we were dipping into the 2000s. And I was like, “What the heck. Like I like that. Why can’t I do it, you know?” So, when I was—Actually, when I was twelve years old, again, I decided I was going to try to give myself a tattoo (chuckles). So, I went to Michael’s. I think I went with my mom to Mission Valley Mall. I took myself to Michael’s. And I got, I just got a sewing needle and some green acrylic paint. Because I thought tattoo ink was green at the time. Remember it used to fade green? 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Yeah. Yeah. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:42.000 So, I got some dark green acrylic paint. And what else did I get? I think that’s it. I got some other solution to make that paint thinner. But I just used that, and I just carved right into me. 01:32:42.000 --> 01:32:46.000 Into yourself. Wow. What did you carve into yourself, if I may ask? 01:32:46.000 --> 01:34:45.000 Um, it was a really light Louis Vuitton logo for the “LV.” Linda Vista. Like monogram, yeah. So, that was dumb. But I did that. It was so light, though. My parents didn’t even notice it, you know. But then fast forward, when I started hanging out with like gangsters, when I was about fifteen years old, I hung out with this older guy named Đăng (Dang) who’s in Vietnam now. Because he was—The U.S. Marshals were looking for him. So, he left. But he was tattooing out of his house. He used to work at a shop. He had gotten out of prison doing like seven to ten years or something. But I used to hang out at his house a lot and my friends were there all the time. And, you know, of course I want a tattoo. So, I asked him. I wanted my back done and I was like “How much would you charge me to get my back done?” And he said “Seven hundred dollars” which is not a lot. But being fifteen years old, it’s a lot of money, you know. So, I was like, “Aw, man. I can’t afford that.” But all my friends got tattooed by him. So, I was like, “You know, I’ll just wait a little bit.” So, I had a friend from Afghanistan that came when I was in fifth grade. And we were good friends. He lived in the same apartment complex. And he used to be able to make anything, even at the age of ten, eleven. Like he made like fans, all kinds of like all the electrical stuff. Like I always messed around with him. But I asked him how I can make a tattoo machine. So, this was before like YouTube taught this stuff and everything. And he was just like “Oh, we’re just going to make a motor for you.” And I’m like “All right.” So, he made me a motor out of like a RC car, and I put one of those pink erasers from the pencils on there. And we got some guitar string and a sewing needle. And we used the shaft of like a Bic pen. And we had a tattoo machine. 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:48.000 Wow! It worked? 01:34:48.000 --> 01:34:50.000 Yeah. Yeah, it worked. 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:52.000 Who did you test it on? 01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:53.000 Uh, myself. 01:34:53.000 --> 01:34:54.000 Oh, wow! Again. 01:34:54.000 --> 01:35:41.000 Yeah. So, I did my thighs. And then, when I decided to dive deep into it, I told my cousin who was already eighteen, I was like “Okay, I need to find like a tattoo kit or something.” You know? I thought at the time, I think eBay was the only one that sold them from China. So, it was going to be like the worst quality. But it came with like a bunch of little inks and stuff. And so, I waited for a while. I got it. And I had no clue what I was doing. There was like a DVD that came with it or something. So, I watched a little bit of that. But I couldn’t really know until I used it. So, my cousin from France was actually visiting me that summer. And he’s like “Just test it on me.” So, I said, “Okay.” So, I did it. I did this Chinese symbol for energy on his chest, which still looks good today, actually. 01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:43.000 Oh, really? That’s cool. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:37:11.000 Yeah. But I knew nothing about needles. You know, there’s different sizes, configurations, whatever. But in my mind, I’m like “Oh. It has to be like drawing with a pen.” So, all I used was the smallest needles (pinches his right thumb and forefinger together to indicate something very tiny). And, you know, I even did like a whole back piece with this tiny, little needle, when—And then, later on, I realized there were bigger needles that I could shade with that are—that’d make it a lot faster. Yeah. But I didn’t know. I had this whole box of like a variety of them that came with the kit. So, I was just trying them all. I didn’t look at the size. I didn’t know anything about sizes. So, I just eyeballed it. (pinches his fingers and looks down, indicating eyeballing something) And looked and did it. Yeah. But I never intended to do it for money. I was doing it for fun. But then when I started to actually need money, I had a friend named Jamie. She was the one who pushed me to start charging people. She was like “Oh, you’re good. You might as well do it.” Because there weren’t that many Asian tattoo artists in the neighborhood, anyway, you know. So, it was illegal, obviously. Because I was underaged too. But I was tattooing, you know, just my friends pretty much. So, I would have her park outside my apartment complex because I didn’t want to park it inside. And I’d have someone go out there, walk them to my apartment where they’d come in, and my whole room I set up like a studio. I literally didn’t have a bed in there. I took it out. And I put a massage table in there. And that’s what I slept on. 01:37:11.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Wow. 01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:13.000 Yeah. 01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:16.000 Oh, my goodness. And this was in the place you were living in with your dad? 01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:22.000 Mm-hmm. Just me and him. He didn’t know I was tattooing for like three years. 01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:23.000 How did you hide it from him? 01:37:23.000 --> 01:37:59.000 Well, he was barely home. So, he was barely home and at the time I was also cutting hair. I was cutting hair and I was fixing cars. I was doing whatever I could because, obviously, being a teenager in the 2000s, you couldn’t do anything with no money, you know. You couldn’t go to movies. You couldn’t, you know, buy clothes. It was like a popularity contest all the time, you know. So, you always felt that constant pressure to get the next best thing or get the nice clothes or else no girls are going to like you. So, I had to do something. You know? Couldn’t get a job, really. 01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:01.000 Yeah. How old were you? 01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:05.000 I was like fifteen. I got arrested a few times. 01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:07.000 For tattooing? 01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:23.000 Um, no. (laughs) I had—I got arrested for like shoplifting once ; suspicion of auto theft once. But I never—Nothing ever came from it. Just my parents got in trouble if anything, you know. Paying fines and stuff. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:38:24.000 Okay. 01:38:24.000 --> 01:39:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. So, after that, I tattooed for a little bit, built some notoriety in my given area. I tattooed mostly Asians and Mexicans because that’s pretty much who I grew up with. I was ready to get rid of those Chinese tattoo machines and go to something better. So, I needed to find something more professional. But you couldn’t buy those unless you were working at a tattoo shop. So, we had to look on Craigslist and all that. And I found somebody that was selling something. And I contacted him to ask if it was still available. And I did this on MySpace, because he linked his MySpace. And it was a tattoo artist. And he told me that he had already sold those, but he was looking at my work and saw I did Asian art. And he needed Asian artists at his tattoo shop. So, I’m like “Okay. Like that’s cool!” And I wanted to learn the right way. I’m like “Are you like taking apprenticeships right now?” And he was like “No. We just need like an artist.” Literally, to draw for them to tattoo. 01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:33.000 Oh! 01:39:33.000 --> 01:41:21.000 I’m like “Ehhh, I don’t know, man.” Because I had gotten an offer, maybe when I was sixteen, to draw for Baby Bash, the singer rapper. He was doing a shoe line and he wanted to do some Asian designs for the shoes. And I rejected that because I was so young. I couldn’t go to Or—It was in Orange County. I couldn’t just go to Orange County and do it, you know? So, I rejected that. And this time, with this guy, I was just like, “Mmm, I mean, we can try it out.” You know what I mean? But I was about to go to San Diego State already. So, the summer before San Diego State, you know, I met up with him and his business partner. And they didn’t even have a shop yet, okay? So, it was kind of sketchy. But they lived over there like towards, you know, La Mesa or something in San Diego. And I went to this guy’s apartment. And they were just in the house kind of setting up everything because they were about to move into the shop. And it wasn’t really like a shop-shop, either. It was like a small like medical studio, in Hillcrest. And it was literally just a small room, like three hundred square feet. And both of these guys were trying to work in there. So, it was two Caucasian guys, okay. The first time I met them, they were telling me, yeah, you know, they need some designs because they do a lot of designs for different clubs or whatever. And I’m like, “What kind of clubs are you talking about?” He was like, “Oh, like motorcycle clubs and stuff.” And I’m like “Okay.” I’m like, “What kind of motorcycle club?” And then he gave me all these references, and everything was a woodpecker. Right? You ever heard of the Pecker Woods? 01:41:21.000 --> 01:41:22.000 No. 01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:23.000 Like the Aryan brotherhood? 01:41:23.000 --> 01:41:24.000 Oh really? 01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:31.000 Yeah. So, anyway. It was like skinhead, Aryan brotherhood, whatever, right? 01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:32.000 I’ve heard of Aryan brotherhood. 01:41:32.000 --> 01:47:06.000 Yeah. So, they were in the Aryan brotherhood when they were inside. They were both locked up for ten years before they came out. That’s how they met, in prison, right? So, they came out and decided to do the shop together. And, you know, I was the only guy there. And I didn’t care. It was like I just needed an opportunity, you know. And they were nice to me. They had no problem with me, I guess, because I’m Asian or something. But, you know, you can hear the racism, them towards other people. And, you know, my time there was interesting because they didn’t let me tattoo yet, because technically I was an artist, you know. They didn’t need me until they went to a convention in Vegas, and they wanted me to, basically, make money for them while they were gone. So, that’s when I was able to start tattooing. They didn’t even have their own furniture or anything. They actually used my stuff. Because I had already—I had everything already set up in my room. So, I just transferred it over, you know. But I treated that place like my own. I painted the walls by myself. I decorated myself, organized it, always cleaned up after them. I treated myself as an apprentice, but I really wasn’t. I was just trying to like, you know, pitch in, pretty much. But yeah. It was interesting because I was covering up a lot of swastikas. I met a lot of ‘em. (chuckles) But they all loved me. So, I don’t know. It was weird. It was just a weird dynamic. And, you know, if you know anything about like the prison life, you know most people in there, it’s very trapped lives in there. Obviously, they all have to stick to their own people. When they’re out here, it’s different. You know what I mean? They can be friends. They can be best friends, and one guy could be black, and one guy could be white. But in there, you can’t. So—Yeah. So, yeah. I did a lot of that. But when these two guys came back from their convention in Vegas, they had some problems, I guess. I already knew there was going to be problems because one guy did all the line work for the tattoos and one guy did all the shading. So, you already know, it takes more to do shading than line work. But they always split it 50/50. So, you already knew that wasn’t going to work out. And then the guy that did the line work, he wasn’t as good as the other guy. But he was more disciplined, right? He was more of a businessman. And the shading guy, he was phenomenal, like his work. Me studying his work is what —my observing of it is what inspired me to tattoo the way I tattoo. You know what I mean? Because he could freehand anything. Like he literally tattooed himself in prison, like his whole arm. And it is perfectly symmetrical. Yeah. It’s pretty crazy. The other guy, though, he was like, he was hit or miss. But he was, you know, a normal dude. More normal. They eventually parted ways. And so, it was just me. And his name is Willis. So, it was just me and Willis left, right? So, it was just me and Willis left and, you know, he was cool. We basically took turns working. I became like, technically, his business partner. But I wasn’t. I mean, I gave 50% of everything I made. I started to get a lot of clients. And then, eventually, he got back on drugs, smoking, all that and kind of went downhill. And I ended up being the only one there, all the time. And I didn’t care. I got to work, you know. So, I kept doing that until he got—I guess, he felt he was spiraling. So, I had met my former business partner at that time. And he used to come hang out which is—It’s ironic, because he was a correctional officer before. Right? And his friend was Willis’s parole officer. So, this whole weird dynamic going on in my world. But anyway, he gave me the idea that we should leave. So, I was like I thought about it and I’m like “Yeah…” But, you know, I’m a loyal person. So, I said, “I don’t know. Let’s give him a chance. Whatever.” And I forgot what happened but there was one night he came in drunk or something, the—Willis came in drunk. And I was like, “You know what. I’m done.” So, we took all our stuff and we just left. Well, all my stuff, and just left. I didn’t care that I didn’t have another shop to go to or anything. I just stopped tattooing for a little bit. And we just kept rolling around, looking for real estate to, you know, to lease. It was super hard because I wanted it to be in my neighborhood in Linda Vista or Kearny Mesa. But no one would allow me to open there. Because it was a “family oriented” (makes quotation gestures with his fingers) neighborhood, right? The only tattoo shop there was on Clairemont (Mesa Blvd.) which is “Absolute Tattoo” and they’ve been there since the ‘80s or something. So, I looked everywhere. I looked at Chula Vista. I looked more north. And then, just no luck. So, we ended up having to go to City Heights, which I did not want to be there because I felt like it didn’t allow me the space to grow. It was more like purely a starter business. I wanted it to be somewhere where it had the potential to last, you know, forever in that location. You know what I mean? The only place that was available in City Heights was a three-story building, the Chinese looking one. You know what I’m talking about? 01:47:06.000 --> 01:47:08.000 Oh, what? The grocery store. 01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:13.000 Mmm, on 47th and El Cajon. AB—it’s like Asian Business Center. 01:47:13.000 --> 01:47:15.000 Oh! Really! 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:16.000 So, I was on the second floor. 01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:19.000 Oh, I didn’t know your shop was there. Okay. 01:47:19.000 --> 01:48:14.000 So, it was owned by an Italian guy. The building was built by Vietnamese people. Owned by an Italian guy with a Chinese wife, okay? So, he knew that we needed it, obviously, because my business partner at the time had like really bad credit. And I was only like nineteen. I had no credit, you know. So, he knew that we needed the spot. So, he overcharged us, obviously. So, the walls were crooked. The floors, the concrete on the floor was so bad that it was like peeling off. Yeah. It was like soft concrete. It was so weird. But yeah. It was really weird. It was a really weird spot. We had like this giant hallway (indicates a narrow pathway with both hands), I mean long hallway that went super deep in and then you’ve got this little space (gestures space opening wider with his arms). So, that hallway was useless. But that was like two-hundred-square-feet of hallway, you know. But we stayed there for a good, maybe, five years. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:16.000 Oh. That’s a long time. 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:42.000 Yeah. Well, every two years from that point—so, 2010, we opened that shop. And I got like a few apprentices. I ended up getting like five or six artists there. So, after that, I left. And I went to open a private studio across the street for myself. So, I worked there by myself for a little bit. And then, two years after that is when I opened Black Lotus now. 01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:43.000 Okay. Okay. 01:48:43.000 --> 01:49:33.000 Yeah. So, I’ve been there since 2014. So, that’s my third shop, Black Lotus. So, long story short, you know, I’ve had a lot of apprentices. I’ve had a lot of artists work for me. You know, people come and go. Some have gone on to open their own shops. And some just don’t tattoo anymore, you know. A lot of them have had a problem with a business partner and left. And so, we were down to almost nothing. Like literally every—I felt like when I was able to be there with my guys—because I was the one doing the tattoos—they were more in tune with everything. Everyone was happier, all that. But as soon as I left whatever shop that was, everything would just go haywire, you know. My business partner wasn’t a tattoo artist. He was just in management, pretty much. 01:49:33.000 --> 01:49:46.000 Okay. It sounds—There was—I didn’t hear a huge jump from when you went from apprentice, to like, business owner and professional. 01:49:46.000 --> 01:49:49.000 Yeah. It wasn’t long. It was like a year. Maybe a year, yeah. 01:49:49.000 --> 01:49:51.000 Okay. So, was there any— 01:49:51.000 --> 01:49:53.000 But I wasn’t an apprentice, though. That’s the weird thing. 01:49:53.000 --> 01:49:54.000 Right. You were actually an equal. 01:49:54.000 --> 01:50:09.000 If I had really done it, yeah. Because even the health inspector was surprised, and was like, “How old are you?” Because they just wanted to license me so I could start working right away. And I was only like eighteen. She even said I was probably the youngest registered tattoo artist in history. 01:50:09.000 --> 01:50:10.000 Wow! 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:14.000 Yeah. Because of that, though. Not in a good way, you know what I mean? 01:50:14.000 --> 01:50:15.000 Yeah. 01:50:15.000 --> 01:50:26.000 But I met her again recently because they used our facility to teach their inspectors how to like inspect, pretty much. So, that was cool. 01:50:26.000 --> 01:50:31.000 That is cool! That’s where your attention to detail with every little thing comes. 01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:36.000 Yeah. And I was actually trying to go for pre-med when I was in school too. Yeah. 01:50:36.000 --> 01:50:40.000 Okay. I was going to ask how this interfered with your time at San Diego State. 01:50:40.000 --> 01:52:11.000 Um, it—I don’t know. I was actually really bored at San Diego State, you know. Yeah. I messed around a lot during my sophomore and junior years of high school. I missed a lot of school, like ninety days each year because I was tattooing at home. You know, I needed money more than I needed to go to school. And, of course, no one cared if I go or not because, you know, my dad didn’t really understand the dynamic of everything when it comes to school, how it’s illegal to ditch. Yeah. So, a lot of time, I just stayed home. If it was sunny, I would walk to school. If it wasn’t, I would just stay home. And no one was there to say anything to me about it, you know. So, I had to motivate myself to get my head back in the game when I was a senior. And then, it was frustrating because I had to retake a few classes which—It was really weird because I had—I was in AP English as a senior with a woman named Ms. Walker (Emily Walker) . She was—Everyone said she was so mean, but she was super nice to me. But I was a senior, taking AP English with her while I was taking sophomore English with her as well. So, she was like, “Why are you here?” And I’m like “I don’t know.” So, she just made me a TA. So did all my other teachers, like the Chemistry teacher. Because they knew I knew what I was doing. I just wasn’t there, you know. So, I had to take half the semester over with those classes. But yeah. That was cool. She even gave me a hundred bucks when I graduated. (smiles and nods) 01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:14.000 That’s nice. That’s really sweet. 01:52:14.000 --> 01:52:32.000 So, I ended up graduating with honors from high school. I had a few full-ride offers, like CSU Long Beach, San Diego State. I really wanted to go to UCSD, but they didn’t accept me for some reason, you know. My brother went there. That’s why. 01:52:32.000 --> 01:52:34.000 That’s why you wanted to go? 01:52:34.000 --> 01:54:47.000 Yeah. I think a lot of things I wanted to do was motivated by him at that time in my life. So, they didn’t accept me, and I had a choice between, you know, going to school far away or staying here. And in my mind, though, the way I thought of it was would I rather be mediocre at a like, you know, A-tier school or would I rather stand out at a okay school. (laughs) No offense. But that’s the problem. When I went to San Diego State, I was really bored. I felt like I knew too much already about what I wanted to get into, and the classes I took were just, you know, unnecessary. I took a course on Asian Studies at San Diego State and literally the whole semester was spent on watching movies and videos on kids in the Philippines. And we spent maybe, I don’t know, maybe two weeks on all the other countries. (chuckles) So, I was like, “What the heck.” So, maybe three weeks into that class, I just tattooed one of my classmates and told him to just do all the work for me. And I passed it, right. But I took an art history class. That was kind of weird. We were just studying cave paintings all the time. Yeah. I didn’t know what the real world like application was to that, besides people that are really interested in like cave paintings. But as soon as I was in there for maybe three to four weeks, I was done. I had a Chemistry class where there was something to solve that the teacher wrote on the board and for some reason no one could figure it out. So, at the end of class, I raised my hand, and I was like, “Can you like show us what you’re trying to do?” And they couldn’t figure it out either. So, at that point, I was like I’m done with this class, you know. Because most of them are grad students trying to finish their thing. So, I don’t hold it against them. But that was not good. (chuckles) 01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:48.000 Right. 01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:57.000 Yeah. So, I went there for like a year-and-a-half, two years. And then I just didn’t go back. Yeah. They even had —They even made me pay back money because I got the scholarship money. 01:54:57.000 --> 01:55:03.000 Financial aid, yeah. What was your intention with going to college, like— 01:55:03.000 --> 01:55:05.000 I was trying to be a plastic surgeon. 01:55:05.000 --> 01:55:07.000 Oh, okay. Okay. 01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Big undertaking (laughs). 01:55:09.000 --> 01:55:11.000 Yeah. So, you were going to go to med school then at some point. 01:55:11.000 --> 01:56:08.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even at the age of, you know, ten, eleven, I was already trying to read my brother’s like biochem books and all that. Just to feel like a smart kid. But, you know, eventually I caught on. I took some athletic training classes. In high school, I knew about the human anatomy. I knew everything already to prepare me for that, you know. And I was really interested in helping people. I mean, it helps me a lot in my daily tattoo job too. Because I know when someone’s body reacts a certain way, I know exactly what it is. Even my—the people that work in my shop, every time they get sick, they’ll call me. Like “What do I do? What do I take?” So, it’s funny how it all applies to your life now, you know. Mm-hmm. But yeah. I definitely tried to groom myself to get there. 01:56:08.000 --> 01:56:24.000 Okay. Okay. I have so many follow-up questions. I’ll try to stay on topic. So, tell me how your dad reacted when he found out that you were tattooing and how does he feel about it now? Like how has that evolved? 01:56:24.000 --> 01:58:30.000 Well, they didn’t know I dropped out. I mean, I was already past eighteen, so. When I would come home earlier, then he’d be like “Why are you home so early?” you know. I just told him that I was taking a break from school to focus on my job. He—They thought I worked at some graphic design firm or something. Because I do graphic design, too. So, he thought I was just doing that. I had to have him co-sign my first shop, though, because I didn’t have credit, you know. So, it was just like—I know that was big for him because, you know, I was a knucklehead at the time. So, he probably didn’t trust me, thought I was going to mess him up. But I had him put his name on that and I’m like, “Just trust me. I got it, you know.” So, it wasn’t until I opened like my third shop ‘til he took it seriously. Yeah. Because my parents were asking me constantly, “Well, when are you going back to school? When are you going back to school?” I’m like, “I’m not going back, dude. I have like three businesses, you know.” But I knew they were okay with it when they started asking me for stuff, (laughs) like “Can you pay for this?” or, you know, “Buy me this.” My brother was kind of —He knew I went through a lot trying to like catch up with him or—it’s because my parents were kind of there for him throughout his whole like childhood. And when he went to medical school, everyone supported him. My aunt, you know, took care of him and everything. But when it came time for me, like no one was there for me, you know? So, we had a different struggle. Although he lived like a really bad life in Vietnam with my parents, and then, you know, came over here to become a success, I had like a different set of problems I dealt with, you know, even being born in America, you know. You can’t compare the two because they’re so dramatically different. But he knew. So, he told me, just do whatever makes me happy. He was like, “As long as you’re a good person, that’s all that matters.” Because he knew I had the pressure on me to do, you know, be a doctor or lawyer or whatever it may have been. 01:58:30.000 --> 01:58:31.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:58:31.000 --> 01:58:35.000 And he found out I was tattooing when I was like sixteen, so— 01:58:35.000 --> 01:58:37.000 How did he find out? 01:58:37.000 --> 01:59:31.000 Um, I slept at his house, and I made the mistake of wearing a T-shirt. And I already had—Keep in mind, at the age of fifteen, I already had both my legs tattooed, like most of my body, and then both half-sleeves done. (laughs) So, I was sleeping with a short-sleeved shirt, and I had like my arm up or something. And then he—we went to go eat the next day and he was like “Man, I could have swore I saw a tattoo on your arm or something.” And I’m like “No. What are you talking about?” And he lifted up, I think, the wrong arm because I didn’t have one on the other side. And he was like “What the heck?” So, then later on, he does it again while I’m in the car with him, and he’s like “I know I saw a tattoo.” And then he lifted up the right arm and he’s like “When the heck did you get that?” And I’m like “Uh, I started tattooing on the side to make money and stuff.” And he’s like “Okay.” And he was just telling me like “Be careful.” Whatever. And that’s it. Kind of just end of story, you know. 01:59:31.000 --> 01:59:32.000 Okay. 01:59:32.000 --> 01:59:34.000 Yeah. 01:59:34.000 --> 01:59:44.000 How has the Vietnamese community reacted? And Vietnamese American? I assume it’s somewhat different. 01:59:44.000 --> 02:01:22.000 It’s been interesting because I’m really—I’m very proper, you know. I’m very respectful to the elders. I’ve been involved with the community for so long because I was—I helped like the Vietnamese Boy Scouts out most of my life. I was in like Vietnamese Lion dancing. I’ve attended, you know, all the festivals, restaurant grand openings. And I have a lot of family, you know. So, I guess my family doesn’t, never took offense to me tattooing or anything. They always, eventually, like made a joke out of it. Like “Oh, tattoo a fly on me,” or something, you know. But they never looked down on it or anything. My parents have a lot of siblings. They have ten each. So, there’s a lot of family. They all know what I do and what I’m doing with it. So, I think they’re okay with that. Even my family that came here recently from Vietnam, they’re, you know, pretty accepting of everything. But I don’t know. I guess society as a whole, when you’re talking about Vietnamese people, they’re still judgmental, obviously. I’ve been to events where, you know, I could be donating like a few thousand dollars, and I’ll sit down at the table with people I don’t know, and they won’t say a word to me. They won’t talk to me or anything until after they realize who I am or what I’ve done. And then all of a sudden, it’s “Oh. Can I take a picture with you?” or “Can you help me with this?” but yeah. Unfortunately, that’s the way it is but it’s up to us to change it, you know. 02:01:22.000 --> 02:01:27.000 Okay. And what about the tattooing community? 02:01:27.000 --> 02:01:28.000 Tattooing community? 02:01:28.000 --> 02:01:29.000 Yeah. 02:01:29.000 --> 02:02:27.000 Kind of the same thing, because I didn’t have a formal apprenticeship. I taught myself how to tattoo. At the time, when I was starting out, it was still very—Tattooing was very—It’s a tight-knit community, I guess you could say. The only way you learn is if you learn from like this guy that passed it down to that guy. It was—There wasn’t public information out about it because they didn’t want it to get bigger. And there weren’t that many clients at the time either. Because there was no shows out or anything. So, you take what you can get. And they didn’t want competition, you know. I got in at the right time when it was blowing up. So, I kind of like took all the customers from San Diego, especially the Asian customers. So, you know, I got a lot of hate, even with the Asian tattoo artists in San Diego. There’s only like two or three of them. 02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:31.000 Two or three Asian tattoo artists? Asian or Vietnamese? 02:02:31.000 --> 02:02:32.000 At the time. Asian. 02:02:32.000 --> 02:02:33.000 Oh, wow! 02:02:33.000 --> 02:03:19.000 There weren’t that many. But, obviously, I was impeding on their business, too. And I was young, and I was hungry. So, they were saying “Who the heck is this kid?” That guy I used to hang out with, too, when I was fifteen, he reached out to me when I was about seventeen years old and asked me to work for him. And I said no. Because I didn’t want to tattoo the same way and kind of repeat the same things. So, that’s why I decided that. He was like “Oh, why do you want to work for white dudes, you know.” (shrugs his shoulders) I just wanted to do something different, you know. I wanted to run things different. I wanted people to look at me different. I didn’t want to just be another Asian tattoo artist in San Diego. I wanted to be more and do more, you know. 02:03:19.000 --> 02:03:38.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. When did you—I think—So, I was looking back, and I was trying to remember when I first heard about you. And it was when you did the art with the girl and the nón lá (non la, Vietnamese conical leaf hat) thing. 02:03:38.000 --> 02:03:43.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I call it the Model Minority. But a lot of people refer to it as “Hate is a Virus.” 02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:48.000 Yes! Hate is a Vi—Okay. Yes. Okay. So, how—can you tell me how that got started as a project? 02:03:48.000 --> 02:06:52.000 Mmm, that was an accident. Actually. Mm-hmm. So, during Covid, I didn’t think it would last as long as it did, the lockdowns. So, you know, they closed —They made me close my shop down for, I think it was seven months or something. It was pretty crazy, which is weird because they left the nail shops open, but not me. (laughs) I was even trying to be innovative and industrious. And I was going to convert the whole outside of my shop into like an outdoor setting, like with tents, canopy, cover, air conditioning vent, everything. But they were like, “No.” (chuckles) But, so we had to stay home. SoI didn’t know what I was doing with myself, and I heard about, you know, all the xenophobia stuff. So, I sat down. I was looking at Instagram and I saw an organization called “Hate is a Virus.” So, I wanted to help them in a way, help kind of amplify the message. And I just sat down and started drawing something. And I don’t usually finish my drawings either because I’m always just prepping for tattoos, you know. But I finally had time to just do whatever I wanted. So, I drawed a little sketch of it and I posted it, and everyone reacted pretty crazy. So, I decided to finish it. And I put it out there, and it kind of like blew up. And I wasn’t planning or intending to do anything with it, like make clothing or any of that. But one of my friends, who I actually just met with before this, he’s the one that—him and my wife were like “Oh, you need to make T-shirts out of this or something.” I’m like “Ehh, I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now,” because my shop was—We were going to be closed for a long time. So, I needed to use my own savings to pay for this. So, I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now. It’s just going to be, it’s going to be a waste, you know. You don’t know if people are going to buy it.” And then my friend, he’s a pretty successful businessman. He trapped me and he ordered fifteen hundred shirts, right. Mm hmm. So, he ordered fifteen hundred shirts and he told me, he was just like “Oh, just pay me later.” And I was like “Okay.” That’s like $10,000, right. So, I was like “Okay, now I gotta sell this,” right? I’m pretty persistent and I’m pretty—when I put my mind to something, I’ll do it. I’ll be able to do it. So, I just started cranking out, you know. I had to create the website right away. Get all the analytics in there right away. And just start cranking ‘em out. So, I got all the pre-orders as soon as that happened. It was like a few thousand. I had at least like a thousand-some sales that first run. You know, we were selling them for 30 bucks each and I was donating 10% to Hate is a Virus. So, I mean, that’s a lot of money, right? (chuckles) 02:06:52.000 --> 02:06:54.000 Yeah. It is. 02:06:54.000 --> 02:08:11.000 So, after that happened, things kind of died down. And I was like “whatever,” you know. I still had like a few shirts left, maybe like three hundred shirts left or something. And I was able to open up the shop again and, you know, things were normal. And then the next year, it blew up again. But I didn’t do anything. It just—Somebody had shared it again. And then that is the year that it blew up like all around the world. So, yeah, one day I just woke up. I’m like “What the heck is going on? Like there’s so many people on my page right now.” So, it reached like Vietnamese celebrities. It reached like, you know, even my client came in one day and she was like “Oh my god, my surgeon just posted up your freaking thing.” I was like “What the heck.” It was some random Indian guy I don’t know, you know. So, there was—Facebook posted it. Instagram posted it. PBS. It was used in protests. It was used on covers of magazines. It was used for—I think it’s in some building at the—What’s that university in Pennsylvania? 02:08:11.000 --> 02:08:13.000 Penn State? 02:08:13.000 --> 02:08:14.000 Temple? Is it Temple? 02:08:14.000 --> 02:08:15.000 Oh, Temp—There’s—Yeah. There is Temple University. 02:08:15.000 --> 02:08:42.000 Yeah, I think it was Temple University. Yeah. It was used in a lot of things. And I was like “What the heck is going on?” you know. And to me, I mean, everything I draw I’m kind of like “Okay, whatever,” you know? I don’t really like admire it the same way that people can. Because just like when I cook, I don’t really like eating my cooking. Because I’m so tired of looking at it, you know. But yeah. It meant a lot to a lot of people. And I’m glad. 02:08:42.000 --> 02:08:44.000 Okay. 02:08:44.000 --> 02:09:55.000 Yeah. So, it opened, definitely opened the doors for me in the sense where there are different people who approach me now to have interviews and everything than just tattoo enthusiasts. You know what I mean? I feel like if I was just a tattoo artist and people only knew me with that, as that person with that title, in your mind you tend to already assume I look a certain way, do certain things, live a certain way. But this kind of changed everything for people. You know what I mean? I did news interviews with like Vietnamese news channels, you know, which is—It must have been weird for her viewers because they’ve probably never seen anybody like me on there. But, you know, it definitely shifts perspectives in a good way. Yeah. Very interesting though. My parents were scared I was going to say something wrong. They were like “Don’t talk politics.” I’m like— (shrugs his shoulders). She did try to trap me into talking about politics. But I didn’t do it. 02:09:55.000 --> 02:10:08.000 You didn’t fall for it. Okay, yeah. Okay. So, speaking of Vietnam, how often do you go back? 02:10:08.000 --> 02:10:12.000 Mmm, I’ve been there twice. But I haven’t been there since ’09. 02:10:12.000 --> 02:10:13.000 Oh. It’s been a while. 02:10:13.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Mm-hmm. The first time I went there was scary because I went there in ’05 the first time. And that was my first time ever on an airplane. I was supposed to go with my brother, but we didn’t make the decision until last minute. He bought me a ticket, you know. So, he was able to get me—He was going with his soccer team because he used to play for the Vietnamese league that played with like the Vietnamese soccer team. So, he got me a flight at the same time, but it wasn’t the same flight. And I flew by myself. My first time ever on an airplane. I was flying to Vietnam, right? So, I was like “Okay. I don’t know what I’m doing but—” You know, I flew to Taipei. I didn’t speak their language. I was just kind of like wandering around, trying to look for whatever. Taipei to Vietnam and then I go through customs and they kind of take me back because I had—At the time, I had the map of Vietnam on my arm tattooed with three stripes. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Oh. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:11:25.000 Yeah, and it was hot, so I was wearing a tank top. So, they kind of, you know, grilled me for that. But then my brother got there, and his friend knew the customs agent, so they let me go. But yeah. That was interesting. 02:11:25.000 --> 02:11:30.000 How did you feel like throughout this whole flight experience? Like what was going through your mind? 02:11:30.000 --> 02:11:42.000 I don’t remember. I kind of just like shut it off. I was listening to the same music. There wasn’t that much to listen to at the time. I don’t think they had a lot of movies on there at the time either. 02:11:42.000 --> 02:11:43.000 In ’05. No, I don’t think so. 02:11:43.000 --> 02:11:56.000 Yeah. So, you know, I was just trying to mind my own business and, you know, do that. I was just more scared if I was going to survive the flight or not. (laughs) Because I’d never been on a plane. So— 02:11:56.000 --> 02:11:59.000 Yeah. That’s a really long flight for a first time. 02:11:59.000 --> 02:12:05.000 Yep. Yep. I was adventurous back then, so— 02:12:05.000 --> 02:12:06.000 Wait. Say that again? 02:12:06.000 --> 02:12:08.000 I said I was adventurous back then, though, so— 02:12:08.000 --> 02:12:09.000 Oh, adventurous. 02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:11.000 I was more curious than anything. 02:12:11.000 --> 02:12:15.000 Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. And how did the second time go? 02:12:15.000 --> 02:13:15.000 The second time was chill, easy. I flew—The second time there, I met my mom there. My mom had flown over there too. So, me and my brother and my mom. That’s when she found out about all my tattoos. Mm-hmm. Because we went to a spa. I didn’t know it was like a co-ed thing. So, me and my brother, we checked in in one area and my sister-in-law and my mom was in another. So, I’m like “Okay, whatever.” So, I told my brother, I’m like “Dude, Mom is going to see all my tattoos.” And he’s like “No she’s not.” And I’m like “All right.” (shrugs his shoulders) I was wearing like—you know, they have white shorts over there. So, at the end, after we go through everything, we walked to our room for the massage, and I see my mom. I’m like “Oh, shit.” So, she sees me, and she doesn’t say a word to me. And I was like “That’s it.” She like didn’t mention it. She already knew I was doing tattoos. But she didn’t know how many I had ; you know. But yeah. 02:13:15.000 --> 02:13:16.000 Did she follow up on it later? 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:17.000 No. 02:13:17.000 --> 02:13:18.000 She never? 02:13:18.000 --> 02:13:30.000 No. She cried one time when she was talking to somebody about it in front of me, though, like “Oh, I can’t believe he got his neck tattooed.” And all that. She’s like “Let me just pay for you to get it lasered off.” I’m like “No. It’s okay.” Because in her mind I think she thinks that if she was here, I wouldn’t have become this person or whatever it may be, you know. That I would have taken a different path if she was around. But I don’t regret anything that happened to me in my life, you know. I think everything happens for a reason and she needed to go in order for me to be this. Like how I am now. You know what I mean? If they had tried to shelter me my whole life, it would have—I don’t know. Maybe I would be in school right now, unhappy with what I was doing. Right? Because if I had gone to another school in another state or something, I probably would have stayed, right, and finished. But, then what? I don’t know. But I’m glad that I did try to make it work, before I gave up on it. Rather than now saying “Oh, what if this happened,” right? 02:13:30.000 --> 02:14:40.000 Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want those kinds of regrets. Why not at least try it? Have you ever talked to your mom about her leaving? 02:14:40.000 --> 02:15:22.000 No. She doesn’t—She—My family doesn’t talk about anything. We don’t even give each other hugs. It’s very like a super traditional Vietnamese family. It’s just barely—I mean, my dad like hugs my wife and stuff and the kids and all that. But I’m—I don’t know. I guess we’re cold in that sense. It’s just the way it is, you know. It’s just more of the women in the family that do the hugging and kissing and stuff. Which is funny because my dad’s — all his siblings, his sisters, they’re like so loving. And they’re so like nurturing and everything. And my mom’s family is super like that too. They’re very tight knit, you know. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Okay. What’s your relationship with your family like now? 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:58.000 Um, it’s good. I mean I barely—I don’t really see my cousins too much anymore even though they’re like right down the street. Because I’m just so busy, you know. I think they get offended sometimes that I am that busy. But I know that what I’m doing is, you know, to set myself up for more time later. So, it’s okay. You know, they’ll understand, eventually. But I’m still close to all my cousins. Like they can contact me anytime, even my cousins from France, Australia. I speak to them on a regular basis. Yeah. 02:15:58.000 --> 02:16:00.000 That’s nice. Okay. 02:16:00.000 --> 02:16:03.000 There’s a lot. They’re all over the world, so— 02:16:03.000 --> 02:16:17.000 Mm-hmm. Cool. (pause) I want to go back to the Vietnamese American community. 02:16:17.000 --> 02:16:18.000 Okay. 02:16:18.000 --> 02:16:23.000 Do you (sighs)… Gosh… 02:16:23.000 --> 02:16:25.000 (chuckles) Trying to phrase it. 02:16:25.000 --> 02:16:34.000 Yeah! There’s just so much. And I feel like this is a really important part of this project, is to talk about identity and our relationship to the community. 02:16:34.000 --> 02:16:43.000 I guess what you want to ask—the question that I think a lot about too—is whether you identify as American or Vietnamese? Right? 02:16:43.000 --> 02:16:44.000 Mmm. Tell me. 02:16:44.000 --> 02:17:50.000 Um, I consider myself Vietnamese, honestly. I don’t know about the American. I mean, I should be the most American Vietnamese American ever, being born in Michigan. But I guess it depends. Because I grew up in the United States, but I grew up around immigrants. So, are you truly a Vietnamese American when you’re surrounded by nothing but your own people? Just like in Orange County, you can survive being a Vietnamese person without knowing any English in Orange County. So, you know, I mean the rules of the land apply, but do the social and, you know, the cultural rules apply? No. So, it’s a weird—I guess it just depends. Because a Vietnamese kid in, I don’t know, Napa Valley or something is going to be more Vietnamese American than, say, me, you know. A Vietnamese person in San Jose versus, I don’t know, freaking Montana or something is going to be different as well. 02:17:50.000 --> 02:17:51.000 Yeah. 02:17:51.000 --> 02:17:53.000 Yeah. 02:17:53.000 --> 02:17:58.000 How do you think the Vietnamese community sees you, like Vietnamese Vietnamese? 02:17:58.000 --> 02:18:02.000 I think they see me as a reflection of themselves. 02:18:02.000 --> 02:18:03.000 Okay. Tell me more. 02:18:03.000 --> 02:19:02.000 Like I feel like—Okay. So, here’s an example. People think I’m Filipino, often, right? So, I always see like, you know, older Filipino women and, you know, working or something. And they ask me, “Oh, are you Filipino?” Or they’ll speak to me in Tagalog. I’m like “No. I’m not.” And then, you know, Chinese people might speak to me in Chinese and think I’m Chinese. And I’m like “No. I’m not.” And Vietnamese people the same thing. But it’s like, I feel like the true Vietnamese people see me as one of them and the Vietnamese—I’m a chameleon. So, it’s hard. Because I can fit in with both. Because when I was growing up, I grew up with, you know, the City Heights Vietnamese guys who like some of them just came over here. Some of them have only been here for like five, six years. But I also grew up with some guys from Mira Mesa that have been, their families have been here for a while. So, they’re more like Americanized. So, I don’t know. That’s kind of a hard one. 02:19:02.000 --> 02:19:03.000 Yeah. 02:19:03.000 --> 02:19:27.000 I guess I can adjust and adapt to both, you know. Because I’m super Vietnamese in the sense where I’m participating in like, you know, the Boys Scouts stuff, the Chinese Lion Dance during Tết (Tet, Vietnamese new year) stuff. And I’m always involved with like the Tet Festival and everything. But I’m Vietnamese American as a scholar, you know. 02:19:27.000 --> 02:19:44.000 When do you feel the most like yourself? When do you feel the most at home and comfortable? Like when are you, you? Like, it might be place, certain people, setting, after a certain experience. 02:19:44.000 --> 02:19:49.000 I don’t know. I guess I feel most like myself at like 1, 2 a.m. It doesn’t matter where it’s at. 02:19:49.000 --> 02:19:51.000 Okay. Why 1 or 2 a.m.? 02:19:51.000 --> 02:20:42.000 I don’t know. That’s always been my time, where I am most productive and at my peak. I don’t understand why. Ever since I was little, it’s been like that. Yeah. Like just last night, I was writing this—I have an article coming out and I finished that like at 2 in the morning. But I just had that last piece, and I’ve been waiting like two or three days to kind of get my mind in the space to write it. And I just knocked it out at 1 a.m., 2 a.m. (chuckles) Even when I tattooed, when I was tattooing at home, you know, I was trying to hide it. So, I had people come at, you know, midnight or 1 a.m. to tattoo them. Yeah. Because I couldn’t do it in the daytime all the time, because I had school. So, that’s always been like my time. My worst and my best. 02:20:42.000 --> 02:20:43.000 Why worst? 02:20:43.000 --> 02:21:38.000 Um, because, you know, late at night is when you’re alone and you have to deal with your own thoughts. And, you know, think about the past, present, future. That’s when all the pressure comes. And you’re still awake while everybody else is, you know, at peace. Yeah. But I think that that’s helped me grow more than anything. My ability to—A lot of people look at, um—Like I answered this question last night in the article, speaking about what do I do when I get overwhelmed. And those moments are usually when I get the most overwhelmed, I see them more as challenges rather than like problems, you know, like personal problems. Because I feel like if I can go over those humps, it will prepare me for the next one and the next one. It kind of callouses you and prepares you for anything the world brings at you, you know. 02:21:38.000 --> 02:21:39.000 Okay. 02:21:39.000 --> 02:21:41.000 Yeah. 02:21:41.000 --> 02:21:58.000 It sounds to me like you are very much identified with your work, and I don’t necessarily mean your career. But like you like to produce. You’re an action-oriented person. Would you say that’s true? 02:21:58.000 --> 02:22:44.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, anything—No one can stop me when I have my head or my heart set on doing something. I’ll tell you that. And no one can tell me no. If I know what I’m going to do, I will. And it doesn’t matter how I do it. But I always get there. You know? And I can guarantee that I never put my foot through the door unless I know it’s going to happen. It’s going to work. You know. Because I’m a very careful person. So, I’m not going to waste my time. Or I’m not going to waste any time, any years, or any people’s time unless it’s something that I’m not 110% invested in, or understands, you know. 02:22:44.000 --> 02:22:55.000 Uh-huh. Okay. That’s—I respect that. That’s like my mom, honestly. There’s nothing she cannot do. And if she decides she’s going to do it, then it’s happening. Like nothing will stop her. 02:22:55.000 --> 02:22:57.000 It’s a Vietnamese work ethic. That’s my mom, too, though. 02:22:57.000 --> 02:22:58.000 Yeah? 02:22:58.000 --> 02:26:13.000 Yeah. She’ll work ‘til—I mean she’s still doing nails now. She’s like 67 years old. And she—I remember I used to have to walk her home like when I was six, seven years old. Because, well, she worked maybe like five, six blocks away. So, me and my brother sometimes would have to go get her and walk her home. Because my dad—She didn’t drive. And my dad was like drinking somewhere, I don’t know. So, she would call us. We’d have to go get her, walk her home and all that. And when my brother left, I would have to do it myself. I would have to like skip Halloweens and everything just to do that for her, too. And, you know, she did that every day. She walked to work every day, walked home. And on Fridays, she would clean the house by herself. Clean the bathroom. I would help her. And there was this one night I’ll never forget. I think I was like eight years old. She was sitting on the bed after she got done cleaning the mirrors, and she was like “Oh, I’m so like dizzy.” And I was like “What the heck?” And I thought she was messing around, and she was just laying there on the bed. And I was like “What’s going on?” And I thought she was kidding or faking it. So, I started jumping on the—I was a kid, and I was jumping the bed, and I was like “Wake up, mom” or whatever. And she wouldn’t wake up. And I don’t know what got into me but like automatically I just had that instinct to help her. So, I went to go get some eucalyptus oil or something and I put it in her nose, and some on her stomach. And all of a sudden, she woke up. So, like she was so tired that she like passed out, you know what I mean. And that’s not the first time. She got sick so many times. And she got the flu really bad once when I was about ten years old. And she needed to go to the hospital. And I was scared. I was so young. So, she told me to call—Or she told me to call my brother. At the time, he just had a pager, and he was in the mountains. So, he couldn’t get it. So, I was like “What do I do?” So, I had to call 9-1-1, right? So, I called 9-1-1 and I told them everything. I talked to them for like ten, fifteen minutes. And then my dad came home. And he was drunk, of course. So, he was mad that it was going to be inconvenient for him to go to the hospital or pay for the ambulance or whatever it may have been. So, yeah. So, I was just in the car with him, going there. And he was more worried about him getting a DUI than anything. But yeah. She was pretty bad. She was really sick. She came home, I think, a day after that and it got worse again. So, my brother luckily was at home by the time that he took her. But that was kind of when my brother got fed up with my dad and his stuff. And he wrote him this long letter. I remember seeing it. It was in Vietnamese, basically telling him if he doesn’t get his act together, then my brother is going to take me away. You know what I mean? So, I guess he took that seriously because, you know, it was better for a little bit. But then it got worse again. And that’s when me and my dad started bumping heads, like crazy. 02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:15.000 And how old were you-ish? 02:26:15.000 --> 02:26:53.000 Like eleven, twelve. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I fought my dad when I was twelve. Yeah. And he was so out of it, he didn’t—he doesn’t even remember any of it. Except for like the next day he kind of like with what my mom told him or something. But I remember that night, me and my mom went to my aunt’s house, and she was just talking to her about how she thinks I was like so fed up and I couldn’t take any more and just went crazy, you know, ‘cause I was sick that day and he wasn’t there, you know. So, yeah. That’s when everything changed between me and my dad after that day. 02:26:53.000 --> 02:26:55.000 What do you mean it changed? 02:26:55.000 --> 02:27:46.000 He just looked at me different. I looked at him different, you know. I saw him as more of an enemy than anything, and he didn’t see me as his son anymore. So, I don’t know. Even when I got arrested that one time, he was just like “Oh, just let him, you know, go to jail.” And all that. But, even after my mom left—that’s why I said when my mom did leave, it was very—it took a lot for me to stay because of all that history, you know, which sucks because when I was younger, I remember he was great. He was the one at home taking care of me everyday and—Because that’s when not a lot of his friends were over here yet, you know. My uncles weren’t here yet. And when he got back on that cycle of nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing) all the time, it just, it got bad. 02:27:46.000 --> 02:27:47.000 Did it ever get better? 02:27:47.000 --> 02:27:48.000 Yeah. It’s better now. 02:27:48.000 --> 02:27:49.000 Okay. 02:27:49.000 --> 02:28:39.000 I mean, honestly, that fight between me and my dad was the best and the worst thing that could happen, you know. Because he finally—I feel bad about it to this day, and I feel guilty because, you know, the way we see our parents is like you’re supposed to respect them and all of the above. But, you know, there comes a point where you just have to cut it. So, yeah, I think it was—it gave him a reality check that, you know, he’s not invincible and he’s not going to keep doing the same thing over and over without nothing happening. So, me getting in that fight with him, my mom leaving, everything at the same time kind of, it just piled up, you know. He started to drink a lot less. And, you know, when I say something he like listens to me now. (laughs) 02:28:39.000 --> 02:28:41.000 Yeah. That’s something. 02:28:41.000 --> 02:29:26.000 Because I’m rational. At the end of the day, you know, like my parents have always told me that even though my brother’s like a doctor and everything, they always tell me like I have the most potential, because I kind of, I raised myself, you know. So, whenever they need something, they ask me. Whenever they need something to get done, they ask me. My dad was diagnosed with cancer two or three years ago, and I kind of guided him through that whole thing. He's in remission now today. But yeah, that was an interesting time too. It made me realize like how precious time really is, you know. He didn’t want to come up to Temecula to live with me, so he stayed in Mira Mesa. But I try to see him once a week or so. 02:29:26.000 --> 02:29:28.000 You come down to Mira Mesa? 02:29:28.000 --> 02:29:31.000 Yeah. So, on the way home, I’ll like stop by there or something. 02:29:31.000 --> 02:29:33.000 Okay. 02:29:33.000 --> 02:29:40.000 Mm-hmm. But, you know, it is weird. As your parents get older, they always want to see you. And, you know, when you’re young, you’re just kind of like passing by all the time. 02:29:40.000 --> 02:29:41.000 Yeah. 02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Mm-hmm. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:51.000 Yeah. I feel like that’s the difference between being a kid and being an adult, is when you realize how important that relationship is, even if it’s difficult. 02:29:51.000 --> 02:30:46.000 Yeah. And like it or not, you are a reflection of some of those characteristics that your parents hold. I mean, me and my dad, we’re like—Okay, I’m stubborn like my mom. I’m determined all the time like my mom. And, you know, I don’t take no like an answer for her. But I’m also like calm in a way like my dad. I’m always nice, smiling. He’s a very—He was great with like paperwork. He kept all the bills organized and everything. And that kind of helps me with the whole OCD thing. But yeah, he’s always been good in that regard. But my mom was really bad at spending money. I didn’t get that from her. And my dad was the opposite, you know. So, I believe I took on the best qualities of both of them. Yeah. Hopefully. (laughs) 02:30:46.000 --> 02:30:50.000 I assume they never said they’re proud of you. 02:30:50.000 --> 02:31:50.000 No. That’s not—It took me a—Like I had to pull teeth to get my dad to even come to my graduation, my high school graduation. So—Because they’re just so used to it. You know, my brother, he ran the Lion Dance group for so long and he never came out to his show. He—It was always me showing up to his stuff. Like he’s done—he used to sing. He used to do theater stuff for VSA (Vietnamese Student Association) at UCSD (University of California, San Diego). They’ve never been to any of that, you know. But now I feel like my dad is more in tune. Every time I have like a TV interview or something, he wants to watch it or share it with his friends or whatever. So, he’s finally at a point where he’s like “Okay, cool.” But, yeah, they never—I don’t know. Maybe they were just so used to me and my brother doing crazy things that they’re not fazed by it. (laughs) You know what I mean? 02:31:50.000 --> 02:32:02.000 Do you—So, I did like some theater type stuff when I was a kid. And my parents didn’t come to that either. And I don’t know—Do you think on some—Is that a Vietnamese thing? Is that an Asian thing? Like for parents to not— 02:32:02.000 --> 02:33:03.000 I think it’s an Asian thing. Because I got A’s all my life. That doesn’t mean—I didn’t get awarded for any of that. It’s an expectation. You know what I mean? But it’s because they—especially for Vietnamese parents who just came over here, they expect everything to be easier than it is over there. But they don’t really have a true sense of a comparison. Because they’re not—They didn’t go through this, you know? They only went through that. So, you know, they’re just basing it on what they hear and, you know, overall like the—they’re comparing a way of life to a way of living, I guess you could say. I don’t know. Like a new way of living. But it’s definitely very different. The, what do you call it? The social temperature is different. Everything is different here. 02:33:03.000 --> 02:33:15.000 Do you have any thoughts on the social relationship between the Asian community and the Black community? 02:33:15.000 --> 02:33:16.000 Do I have what? 02:33:16.000 --> 02:33:21.000 Do you have any thoughts on that, observations? I’m leaving it open-ended. 02:33:21.000 --> 02:36:52.000 Okay. Well, I’ve been —I’ve heard a lot of things, but I haven’t experienced. I know that they, the Asian community, wanted to support the Black community during the whole George Floyd thing. I even got asked to speak at a George Floyd event which I did not accept. But—Because I didn’t think it was proper for me to—It had nothing to do with me, you know? But I’ve worked with a lot of, you know, Black non-profits and stuff. And they’re great. We support each other and everything. I guess it just depends on which area you’re in. You know? I don’t think they should be going against each other. I don’t—But I also hear that they’re not supporting our movement as much as we supported theirs. But I don’t think that applies to every city or anything. I think they just—Whatever is popular on the news today. And if—you know, we’re going to take what we can get. And if people were only reporting on Black on Asian crime or Asian on Black crime or whatever, that’s all we’re going to hear. I don’t necessarily—I don’t know. I think it’s—I don’t think it should be a conversation that includes only Asians and Blacks but Hispanics and everyone as well, you know what I mean? I think whenever there’s a problem, we should all get together and figure it out. Whether—Even—The white community suffers from the same, you know, poverty and everything as we do. Some of them do, right? So, why is it fair to exclude them when it comes to things like that. When it comes to fighting for like, you know, your healthcare and taxes and all that. Why is it like that? That’s why in my non-profit, I try not to—I didn’t want to exclude anybody. It’s not just for Asians or just for Blacks or Hispanics. It’s for everybody. I’m not going to say no to a white kid just because he’s not a minority. It doesn’t make sense, right? Because then they’ll become the new minority, right? So, that’s what I truly believe. It bothers me that every time, a lot of times, when people refer to my non-profit, they refer to it as, kind of like what you said earlier. Like they refer to what they want it to be. So, they would say like, “Oh. It’s an Asian non-profit.” Or it’s a non-profit for Hispanics on the border or something. And why does it have to be that, though, you know? It’s more like a headline thing than what it really means. So, yeah, at the end of the day, I don’t know, we should all stick together somehow. It’s hard because it’s so competitive in a way, I guess. Even with Asians. Asian non-profits I’ve worked with in the past, they’re oddly competitive when they are working towards the same goal, which is weird. 02:36:52.000 --> 02:36:59.000 I’ve heard that even just about Vietnamese non-profits, like down in the City Heights area, that I’m talking to. There’s so much like in-fighting. 02:36:59.000 --> 02:37:20.000 Yeah. But you know what’s weird? The non-profits that I work with, the community partners that support me the most, they’re all in Orange County. And they barely even know me, you know what I mean? But they share my stuff. They help me out. They work with each other. Everything is kind of like— 02:37:20.000 --> 02:37:21.000 Is it—Is that a coincidence? 02:37:21.000 --> 02:37:48.000 I don’t know. It’s weird because you think they’d be more competitive. Because there’s nothing but Asians up there, right? I don’t know. Maybe it’s competition to stand out in San Diego. Right? Because there’s so few that any time a new one pops up, you know they’re like oh, they’re going to take care of everybody. You know what I mean? But as long as everyone does a different thing, they can do whatever they want. If you’re going for the same goal, you might as well just like (makes a coming together upward sweep with his hands) unite. (chuckles) 02:37:48.000 --> 02:37:56.000 Yeah. I agree. That’s how I feel about all the different like storytelling type initiatives. Like they’re all good. We need more if anything. 02:37:56.000 --> 02:40:00.000 You need a different approach and you just—you can have different approaches for your audience. And you’ll attract different audiences. You know? But like yeah. I mean there’s a lot of podcasts that focus on one people and one people alone. And that’s great but you’re limiting yourself to other stories that could change your perspective like that. I’m a very open like—I try to be as well-rounded as possible. I try to understand everybody, where they come from, their values. I’m not—I don’t know. I used to be all about Viet pride ‘til I die type of deal. I used to hang out with nothing but Vietnamese gangsters. We used to, you know, pick on people that weren’t Vietnamese and hate on people that weren’t and, you know, protect our own. All the guys that just came here from Vietnam I would like take care of them. But as I grew up, I realized we all need each other, you know. Whether you’re Vietnamese or not. My wife, her family is—I’m like the only Asian in-law. You know? She’s Laotian, but all her brothers and sisters are married to non-Asians pretty much. And ironically, I’m the only Asian. So, that was like kind of weird for me. It was like “Whoa. This is different.” You know? Because my family is primarily, you know—my sister-in-law is Vietnamese, all my cousins. Well, I have one cousin that his wife is French. But same thing, you know? (chuckles) So, there’s pretty much just French and Vietnamese people. Yeah. And then I have a Black cousin that was adopted by my aunt in France back then. So, my family has always been pretty like essentially an open book. Accept anyone, you know. We don’t have nothing to hide. We love when new people come around so we can share like our food, culture, all that. Yeah. 02:40:00.000 --> 02:40:02.000 That’s nice. 02:40:02.000 --> 02:40:18.000 Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we grew up, especially in San Diego, we grew up in a melting pot. So, it’s not like we’re in freaking Utah or something. Then that’s like a different ballgame. Um, but yeah. We’re lucky. Pretty soon, I’m pretty sure every state will be similar. 02:40:18.000 --> 02:40:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. 02:40:20.000 --> 02:40:23.000 Yeah. (nods) 02:40:23.000 --> 02:40:24.000 Okay. Thank you for sharing. 02:40:24.000 --> 02:40:25.000 What else? (laughs) 02:40:25.000 --> 02:40:27.000 Um, I have more questions. How are you feeling energy-wise? 02:40:27.000 --> 02:40:28.000 No, I’m good. I’m good. Yeah. 02:40:28.000 --> 02:40:36.000 You’re good? Okay. Tell me about the non-profit (The Doan Foundation). 02:40:36.000 --> 02:40:43.000 Okay. So, it started—I started it August of 2022. 02:40:43.000 --> 02:40:44.000 Oh. It’s really new. 02:40:44.000 --> 02:45:55.000 Mm-hmm. So, I kept replaying something my dad told me when I was just—I think I was just taking him out to eat. And he—Obviously, my brother’s successful. I guess I’m successful now too. So, you know, he was just telling me like he’s glad that me and my brother have figured out that we made something of ourselves. Because, you know, he had cancer at the time. So, he was just like, you know, “If I pass away, like I wish I had something to give you guys, but I don’t.” And, you know, my dad has been struggling—Like he’s been working for, what, since 1993, pretty much the same company and, you know, getting paid through retirement. With all that hard work, he’s just making like $1,000 a month. How are you going to live on that, right? So, you know, he’s frustrated with that. He’s like “What am I going to do with this. Like I can’t even afford rent with this amount, you know.” And he just was venting to me. So, I realized like—It made me reflect on why our families came here in the first place, to give their kids a better life which he succeeded in. You know what I mean? You know, so, I told myself, you know, it’s pretty amazing that a family that came over here with literally nothing and grew up on freaking welfare and Section 8 and eating government cheese and, you know, cereal box samples, can get to a place like this. So, I wanted to create an organization where I could, I guess, motivate other kids who were in the same position as I was to do more. Or motivate their parents to realize that they can give that to their children just through, you know, being persistent and giving them a stable environment to grow up in. So, at first, I just wanted to do some scholarships. Because I was donating money yearly to just random non-profits. But I caught myself thinking about where this money was actually going, and I just—(shrugs shoulders) You don’t know, right? So, I was like “Okay, I got to do it myself.” And that’s my problem. Every time I have an idea, I just implement it immediately. So, I told my wife one night, it was like “You know what? I’m going to start a non-profit.” And she was like “Okay.” She’s not surprised anymore until like I actually do it. And the next day I did it. So, I put in the paperwork and everything. And then I just got going. I wasn’t going to do anything big. It was just going to be me pretty much funding it. Every year maybe some donor or something will want to. But I wasn’t trying to promote it or make it big or anything. But one of my friends, one of my older friends, he’s been working in the sector for over thirty years. So, he was like “You need help with anything, let me know. Just ask me, you know.” So, I have too much pride. So, I like, like I said, I like learning everything myself before I even ask the question. I don’t want to sound stupid ; you know. So, when I did need some confirmation on things, I finally called him. I told him what’s going on. I showed him the website. He looked at everything and he’s like “Dude, everything looks good.” He’s like “What do you need help with?” I’m like “I don’t know. You need to tell me.” Anyway, it’s been like that for a while, and I was telling him like “I just want to give away a few scholarships and then just go from there and build it up slowly.” He’s like “Then why do it at all?” So, at that point, I was like that’s true. I’m not known as the guy to go soft on anything, you know? I’m very all or nothing. So, I was like “alright.” So, he made the offer. So, I made him my chair, or I was going to make him my chair, okay? And then, he introduced me to a few people. And that’s when I met Thảo (Thao). So, Thảo Hà (Thao Ha). And it took a while, like four dinners, but she finally said she wanted to be a part of it, and she wanted to be chair. So, she became chair and then my other friend, he’s vice-chair and so forth. So, now that I have other people involved, now I have to go all in, right? So, I had to navigate my way strategically. There’s a lot of grants and stuff that aren’t available to non-profits that have been established under a year. So, I found out that the hard way after looking a lot. So, I had to rely on individual donors. So, I didn’t realize how many people I knew or how many businesses I know. And I kind of reached out to everybody. And we’ve raised like over $30,000 so far. It’s only been about six months. Yeah. And I funded ten scholarships already. 02:45:55.000 --> 02:45:56.000 Oh, my goodness! 02:45:56.000 --> 02:47:27.000 And I’m getting—The kids are going to get chosen on April 1st. Yeah. So, at the moment, I’m just focusing on southern California because I don’t feel—I would love to do all of California. But it just makes things less, I guess you could say, personal. I want to do more of like the kids in your backyard, kind of deal, you know. I respect organizations that are trying to solve global problems like world hunger. But I don’t feel like there’s an immediate resolution to that, you know. I wanted to do something that would affect these teenagers immediately, so they could like move on and take the next step. It’s more like a—It’s a pedestal. That’s what the “foundation” in Foundation stands for. Like you being the foundation for their futures. It’s not a family Foundation, you know. Because people use the terms interchangeably. So, sometimes people get confused. But, yeah, that’s what I mean when I say “foundation.” And yeah, I mean, hopefully we can do crazy things. I’m a guy with really crazy ideas. So, we’ll see what happens. But I really want to do something that’s related to the arts but includes every culture you can think of in one, you know. Have you ever been to the Multicultural Fair? In San Diego? In Linda Vista? 02:47:27.000 --> 02:47:28.000 No. 02:47:28.000 --> 02:47:43.000 They have it once a year. But it’s just like a little street fair thing. It’s very, really small. When I was young, I used to think it was huge. But, you know, it’s just food and some stuff. But I want to do that like on steroids. In the Convoy district somehow. 02:47:43.000 --> 02:47:46.000 Like in a multicultural fair? 02:47:46.000 --> 02:48:13.000 Mm-hmm. I want there to be like—I want them to shut down the streets and have a stage there for all different performers, every culture, all the food, different foods you can think of and all that. And kids could come and enjoy it, probably like during Christmas time or something, you know? But I want to do something like that for the city in the near future. (chuckles) But it’s a crazy undertaking. 02:48:13.000 --> 03:47:16.000 Have you spoken to the API (Asian Pacific Islander) Coalition? 03:47:16.000 --> 03:47:18.000 Mmm, I don’t think so. 03:47:18.000 --> 03:47:23.000 Okay. I can connect you if you want to but it’s basically the San Diego Asian API. 03:47:23.000 --> 03:48:38.000 Okay. There’s so many in San Diego that are named like different that are similar. But Nam from the Convoy district just sponsored our event. So, I know he is connected with that area. 03:48:38.000 --> 03:48:40.000 Okay. 03:48:40.000 --> 03:48:47.000 So, I don’t know. I’ll figure it out. But I’m trying to get everyone together to do something basically. I think it should be good. 03:48:47.000 --> 03:48:49.000 Is it Nam from Viet Vote? 03:48:49.000 --> 03:48:54.000 I don’t know. He owns Cross Street Chicken and Beer. 03:48:54.000 --> 03:48:58.000 Oh, okay. Maybe not the same. I don’t know. Okay. I mean that’s a common name, so— 03:48:58.000 --> 03:49:00.000 But my friend Nguyet was in Viet Vote. 03:49:00.000 --> 03:49:01.000 Who? 03:49:01.000 --> 03:49:04.000 Nguyệt (Nguyet). You don’t know Nguyệt Phạm (Nguyet Pham) ? 03:49:04.000 --> 03:49:16.000 I’ve never heard of him. Um, there’s also the—Well, we can talk about this more offline. But there’s also the Oceanside Southern California API Festival coming up next month. I’m on the planning committee for that. 03:49:16.000 --> 03:49:17.000 Sick. 03:49:17.000 --> 03:49:22.000 So, there’s always opportunities to talk to event planners. 03:49:22.000 --> 03:50:55.000 Yeah. I like to go to different—I mean, I would love to have the time. But I like going to all these different events just to see what’s going on, you know what I mean? Where people are doing different—turnout, how people absorb it. I have—I’ve been to a lot of different types of charity events from different cultures. And different initiatives, whether it comes to health or whatever. And it’s all really, really different. For say the really Vietnamese charities, super unorganized. But they always meet their goal. Right? Because everyone knows that they’re there to give money and eat and dance, whatever, sing or whatever. You know, I’ve been to a Japanese one. It was a little more strict, a little more Americanized. It was just too professional in a way. You know what I mean? There was no personal touch to it, like a sense of family. And then, you know, I’ve been to events. The events are different here and Orange County too, very different vibe. And I’m about to go to one hosted by the Ronald McDonald House Charities, which is going to be like the most off-the-wall one that I’m going to be going to. Because it’s super different, you know. There’s this one side for medical purpose for kids, and— 03:50:55.000 --> 03:50:57.000 I used to be a camp counselor for them. 03:50:57.000 --> 03:51:36.000 Yeah. And their organization has been there for forever. And they were super cool with me when I did the toy drive thing with them over Christmas. And you can feel peoples like intentions or ingenuity, you know. When I walked in there, no one talked to me different, anything, you know. We had a full conversation. They were the ones who I talked to a lot about—Because I have a problem with exploitation of—You know, on social media you see those videos where somebody will give like homeless people money and all that. 03:51:36.000 --> 03:51:37.000 Yeah. They’re filming themselves giving. 03:51:37.000 --> 03:52:45.000 Yeah. I don’t like that. But I understand now because of those women at the Ronald McDonald Foundation. Because I told them, when they told me to take a picture in front of the sign or whatever, I’m like “Ah, I don’t need to.” You know? Like it’s not important to me. And she’s like “You have to.” Like why? And she’s like “Because you have to show other people and lead by example. And if you don’t show them, give them the visual on this, then they’re not going to want to give to me or you.” You know what I mean? So, people need that motivator in order to do it. Because there will always be more people inspired by it than are disgusted by it, I guess you could say. So, at that point, I was like “Oh, okay, I’ll take a picture.” (both laugh). Yeah. But, um, yeah, it gave me a different perspective, you know? Because I give people money all the time. But I don’t, you know—I’m not going to write on Facebook like “Oh yeah. It was a good day. I gave this person $100.” Whatever, you know. Yeah, I hate that. (laughs) I hate it a lot. So, where were we going with that? 03:52:45.000 --> 03:52:49.000 Uh, we were talking about—You were telling me about the Foundation. 03:52:49.000 --> 03:54:21.000 The Foundation. Okay. So, yeah, I mean I’ve already had people try to ask me to implement programs at local elementary, middle schools. But I haven’t the slightest clue how—that’s not my field. You know what I mean? I’m sure I can make it happen. But at the moment, I just want to focus on teenagers because that’s what I know. What are—The life that they’re going through, the struggles and everything, I can relate to that most because I was—you know, that wasn’t too long ago for me. Versus I don’t know how the curriculum is in middle schools now. I don’t know how to deal with kids that age. Um, yeah. I was like crazy when I was that age. So, I don’t know. But I do want an, when I do expand, you know, education committee and all that. Hopefully we get there. You know, I’ve always had this weird—Like I guess I second guess myself a lot with, you know, whether—I second guessed whether the organization was going to get anywhere. Or whether people were confused? Or dissuaded by the name? Or the—how the mission wasn’t as romantic as these other ones, whatever. But now I’m finally content with the fact that I’m doing what I know is right and what I’m leaving and, you know, just hope that people are on the same page as me, you know. 03:54:21.000 --> 03:54:25.000 Do you feel like you’ve found your people? Who understand the Foundation? 03:54:25.000 --> 03:54:58.000 Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s the first year and you never know. Of course, everyone’s going to support you. I mean, that’s not true actually. But people want to support you on that first year. And if you do well, then they’ll keep doing it. If you mess up, then you’ll never see them again. So, I mean, it’s been six months and I’ve done okay. So, we’ll see what happens. But anyone that knows me knows that they can trust me and knows that if I do something, it’s going to be the right way. You know what I mean? 03:54:58.000 --> 03:55:02.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that too. I’m sure you just have to decide and then you’ll just make it happen. 03:55:02.000 --> 03:55:16.000 Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, everyone came together for this and, you know, most people are donating like DJ services, photography, whatever. So, there’s a lot of community getting together for this which is cool. 03:55:16.000 --> 03:55:24.000 That’s great. And the scholarships. Tell me more. Like are these like scholarships for the teenagers to go to college to study art? Or— 03:55:24.000 --> 03:56:45.000 My scholarships actually can be used for like barber school if they want. Yeah. Or any type of technical school. Because a lot of the kids in these neighborhoods, sometimes they don’t have the option or the time to, you know, put all their focus into their studies in high school. Sometimes they have to start working at fifteen, sixteen years old because they’ve got to take care of their family. Or they might need like a $500 scholarship to get an airplane to fly to South Carolina where they’ll be going to school. You know? They might not be able to afford that. Or they might have to help their parents with the one last phone bill or something before they can go off and do their thing. You know? So, that’s what a lot of other scholarship funds, programs, they don’t think about. They don’t think about these other jobs that—like becoming a barber, you know. No one thinks about that. But, you know, you go through a little bit of school and it’ll provide you something to, you know, a tool to use for the rest of your life. Where you can always go back to it if you want to and it can be a very prosperous career if you put your head into it, yeah, just like doing nails. I mean there’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist but, you know— 03:56:45.000 --> 03:56:49.000 Oh. There’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist. I never thought about that. 03:56:49.000 --> 03:57:42.000 Well, technically no. There are here and there. They’re trying to pop up. But they’re very frowned upon. Because it’s literally like a few weeks course or something. And you’ve got to pay a lot of money for it and what do you really learn, you know? I wouldn’t say they hazed apprentices back then, but it was much more difficult. And the caliber that you had to reach was a lot higher than it is now. You know what I mean? Very hard to get into the industry back then, but easy to stand out. And now it’s easy to get in, hard to stand out. Because everyone’s trying to get into it. I’m just lucky I’m like grandfathered in, at this point. I was like the last generation of like the original, like old dudes. Yeah. 03:57:42.000 --> 03:57:43.000 Does that mean you’re an old dude? 03:57:43.000 --> 03:58:16.000 No. (Ho laughs) But most of them were. I was so young. That’s what gave me the advantage. You know, I had more time to grow. A lot of those guys now that had tattooed in the ‘90s, early 2000s, they kind of—they never changed their ways. They never caught up with the times. They’re just so stuck in their old ways and they’re so stubborn that, you know, they just inevitably—their careers just take a dive. 03:58:16.000 --> 03:58:20.000 When you say, “stuck in their old ways,” do you mean like in terms of like technical skills? 03:58:20.000 --> 03:59:48.000 Mm-hmm. That, technology has changed. The tools have changed. You know, you’re not going to catch a 60-year-old tattoo artist posting on social media every day, right? Yeah. I mean that’s where your portfolio is. That’s where everything is now. You’ve got to interact with your customers. If you’re rude or something, it’s going to immediately go on Yelp. And it’s hard. It is really hard for them. Yeah, I have guys I looked up to back then that they’re just—they still—they’re actually tattooing worse now than they used to because, you know, I feel like they’re trying to catch up to these younger guys, their styles and everything, that they just end up losing their own style. And I don’t know, it sucks. But that’s just the way it is now. Either you survive, or you don’t. You know what I mean? But I guess the older guys, their hustler’s mentality was a lot more prominent than the kids now. I don’t think the kids that are getting into it—They’re not built as hard as the tattoo artists that grew up back then. That’s why they’re able to stay in the industry for so long, you know. A lot of kids now, it’s so easy for them to learn how to do it on YouTube, whatever. And then they’ll just give up if they get bored or something. They never really stick with it. 03:59:48.000 --> 03:59:49.000 Okay. 03:59:49.000 --> 04:00:29.000 And then, another thing is back then you didn’t really have any tattoo artists that were like art students in college or something. And now, you have people just graduating out of college and they’re like crazy phenomenal because, you know, they went to art school rather than tattoo school underground somewhere in the basement. Yeah. So, they were frowned upon for a while too. Because it’s like the same thing with the military when people that graduate and become automatically like officers in the Navy or something. And you’ve got other guys who have been there since they were 18 years old and working their way up. Same deal. I mean, I don’t really care. Like if you’re talented, you’re talented. I’ll teach you, you know? 04:00:29.000 --> 04:00:30.000 Okay. 04:00:30.000 --> 04:00:31.000 Yeah. 04:00:31.000 --> 04:00:33.000 So, do you like providing mentorship? 04:00:33.000 --> 04:01:19.000 Um, I did for a while. I just took on my last apprentice. She just got done two months ago. I’m not going to teach anyone else for a while. Yeah. Because it takes up a lot of my time and I don’t feel like it’s fair to take someone on if I don’t have the time to do it. Or my full attention, you know. Yeah. And a lot of people are going—they’re like charging to teach people now. Whereas before, you just earned it. It’s free. They just had to put in the work, like throw out the trash and all that. It's like a full-ride scholarship. But then now, yeah, a lot of artists are charging for apprenticeships which I still don’t agree with that, you know. Yeah. 04:01:19.000 --> 04:01:26.000 So, then, if somebody wanted to become a tattoo artist, really all they need to do is find a mentor who will let them apprentice. 04:01:26.000 --> 04:02:17.000 Yep. And before, it was like one in a million. Now, as long as you have money, you just pay somebody, and they’ll teach you. You know, so it makes—it dilutes the industry a little bit. But I believe if you’re going to—you know, if your work is good enough, you’re always going to stand out. Right? Yeah, but people like Photoshopping fake tattoos online and stuff now too. So, it makes it really weird. Yeah, so people have a unrealistic expectation sometimes of how a tattoo should look, how it should be done. They watch these shows, and they think that’s exactly how it’s going to be. Or the drama and all that. But, I don’t know. I guess the good thing is society doesn’t frown on it anymore, even in Asia. I heard Vietnam has a bunch of tattoo shops now. 04:02:17.000 --> 04:02:19.000 Yeah. I’ve heard that too. 04:02:19.000 --> 04:02:38.000 Yeah. So, that’s a good thing for the industry itself. Because before it was nothing but—people just looked at it as bikers, gangsters, and basically all the bad people in the world was a tattooed people, you know. 04:02:38.000 --> 04:02:41.000 Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds very different now. 04:02:41.000 --> 04:02:44.000 Mm-hmm. Even you have tattoos. (laughs) 04:02:44.000 --> 04:02:57.000 Even I do! Um, okay (pause) I have like six more questions. But like we’ve been sitting here a while, so I don’t want to wear you out completely. 04:02:57.000 --> 04:02:58.000 What’s the questions? 04:02:58.000 --> 04:03:20.000 Tell me—I want to know how you’ve grown. Like what are some big lessons you’ve learned? And I don’t necessarily mean from childhood to adulthood. But it could be within the last week, or within the last decade. Like how have you grown? You’ve grown a lot because of what you went through as a kid, but — 04:03:20.000 --> 04:05:33.000 I don’t know. That’s a hard question. I guess I’ve learned not to expect anything from anybody, you know. For example, okay, let’s say you’re my apprentice today. You’re my student, okay? Let’s say I help you grow. I help you, you know, establish this career for yourself that’s going to help you out for the rest of your life. And you’re doing that with me. I’m helping you for two years and then you’re finally done, right? My—Most people would say, “Oh, oh you owe me. I did this for you. And, you know, you’ve got to work for me for this amount of years and I’m going to ruin you if you leave.” All that stuff. But that’s not me. You know, I was able to see that from a third person point of view while seeing my business partner think that way of my employees, you know. So, I’m glad that I was able to see that because, basically, you know, people grow, and people move on. You can’t expect somebody to be there no matter what. And, basically, it’d be detrimental to their own success just because they feel they owe you something? It doesn’t make sense. So, I’m glad I learned that early on because that’s helped me a lot in dealing with artists that work for me and respecting them and understanding that nothing is forever, you know. And you’ve always got to be ready for them to grow. And that’s fine. And you should be there to help them grow rather than, you know, rather than step down on them. And, you know, as long as you put that energy out there, everything goes good, you know. And people don’t want to stay because they’re forced to. They want to stay because they want to, right? That applies to everything, relationships, you know, everything. 04:05:33.000 --> 04:05:50.000 I guess, when you’re talking throughout this whole time, and when I met you, I get a sense of contentment as you said, but also confidence in your future, because of these bricks that you’re laying out. Like you seem very confident that everything will turn out the way it should. 04:05:50.000 --> 04:05:51.000 Yes. 04:05:51.000 --> 04:05:54.000 Does that feel right to you? Or do you still doubt? 04:05:54.000 --> 04:08:43.000 Mmm, yes and no. But even if I doubt myself, I’m a problem solver. So, I don’t—My wife always tells me like “Oh, you won’t tell me what you’re going through.” Or whatever. I’d say because if I don’t have a solution, then there’s no point in talking about it. Because talking about it is not going to make me come to the solution. I’d rather use the time worrying about it to come up with a way to solve it. You know, I’m very–I’m good at compartmentalizing my thoughts. So, that’s why I can work on like thirty things at the same time and I’m fine. Whereas other people would go freaking crazy, right. But I’m used to that because I’ve always been so interested in so many things. And I’ve always told people as a tattoo artist, it was really hard for me to be good at the beginning stages because I was trying to do everything. Because the artists now, they specialize in one thing and one thing only. Like, you know, one guy might be a portrait artist, but he might suck with line work or something. One guy might do American traditional tattoos and he sucks at shading. One guy does Asian work, and he has no clue how to do like very fine line stuff. And, you know, that path for them was the correct path for them. And it might have only taken them a year or two, whatever, if that’s all they were doing. Whereas me, I was trying to do lettering, Chicano work, Asian work, realism. I was trying to do all of it at the same time in a parallel fashion, so, it took me a lot longer to master all of them at the same time. That’s the same way I am for business, like trying to navigate my tattoo business. Trying to navigate my clothing line. Helping my wife with her beauty line. Doing a non-profit. (laughs) And, yeah, doing everything else too. So, it’s definitely crazy. But, you know, I encounter problems here and there and little hiccups. But I work through it. I solve it, you know. There’s no point in—I just feel like people waste too much time worrying about things that haven’t happened or may not ever happen. Yeah. There’s no time, basically. Time is the most precious thing that you have. You can’t get it back. You can’t make more of it. Yep. So, people ask me why I stay up so late every day. Why I wake up so early. Why I’m doing so much. And honestly, it’s because I’m already—I’m turning 33. So, I only have maybe, I don’t know, fifteen years before my business dies down a little bit, maybe popularity. So, I have to make my mark now to buy myself more years. You know what I mean? 04:08:43.000 --> 04:08:47.000 Yeah. Yeah, you’re investing in future you, it sounds like. 04:08:47.000 --> 04:08:48.000 Yep. 04:08:48.000 --> 04:09:09.000 Okay. Going back to the styles of art, is there any style or anything that you wish you could do more of? I mean, I’ve seen what you get a lot of. 04:09:09.000 --> 04:09:10.000 Mmm, not really. I mean, I like to do everything. That’s the problem. That’s why my waiting list is so long. I take on every project that comes to me. It’s really rare where I’ll say “Aw, I can’t do it.” 04:09:10.000 --> 04:09:12.000 Why would you say no to someone? 04:09:12.000 --> 04:10:13.000 If it’s like a dumb idea, or one that—Like I had a guy come in one time. And—it was a white guy—he had a consultation with me. He wanted a Buddha tattooed on him, right? And he was wearing like a cross necklace, so I knew he wasn’t Buddhist. But he wanted a Buddha tattoo on him, and I asked him where he wanted it. And he said on his leg. And I’m like “You can’t get it on your leg. It’s like disrespectful.” And he said he wanted bud leaves like around it, like marijuana leaves. And I’m like “Okay.” (laughs) Like that makes no sense. And I’m like “I don’t know if I’m the right guy for you, for that.” But, yeah, usually, you know, it’s hard because if you say no, then you’re rejecting a customer. And if you say yes, then you’re going against your own like morals. So, the only thing I can do is drive them away with my price. So, I told him I was going to charge him like $3,000 or something. And he said no. That’s it. 04:10:13.000 --> 04:10:14.000 Okay. 04:10:14.000 --> 04:10:25.000 So, it doesn't make me the bad guy. But that’s how you turn those things. But yeah. Ideas like that. Or people want to get each other’s names and they’ve only been together for like a week. I don’t do those. 04:10:25.000 --> 04:10:26.000 Do people ask you for that? 04:10:26.000 --> 04:10:43.000 Yeah. Yeah. But I usually make them wait, wait about two years. And I’ll give them like a ridiculous price too, you know. For them to think about it a second time. Usually, they break up within the next few months. (Ho laughs) Yeah. It happens a lot. 04:10:43.000 --> 04:10:44.000 Oh my god. 04:10:44.000 --> 04:10:48.000 Yep. That’s why we don’t take walk-ins. Because people make those irrational decisions, you know. 04:10:48.000 --> 04:10:51.000 Mmm. Okay. Yeah. 04:10:51.000 --> 04:10:53.000 (chuckles) We’re responsible. 04:10:53.000 --> 04:11:09.000 Right. This is going to be a weird question. But you’re pretty open about your past. And you’re writing this memoir. It’s going to be published. 04:11:09.000 --> 04:11:10.000 Yeah. 04:11:10.000 --> 04:11:16.000 And your family knows that you share all this info. 04:11:16.000 --> 04:13:20.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t know if they’re even interested. That’s the weird thing. I mean, they know that I do interviews and articles and stuff. But they’re just kind of like—Like I said. It’s nothing new to them. In their brain, they’re just like “Oh, yeah. He’s doing that. That’s cool.” You know. I guess they just don’t get excited about anything. So, I don’t even know. I don’t think my brother knows I’m writing a book. But I actually don’t want my family to read my book because it’s going to—I mean, I know what it’s about. I know how it’s going to affect them. But they don’t know that yet. And like if they read it, it’s going to mess them up, you know. Because it’s not like a blame game, type of calling people out thing. It’s just–it’s the truth, you know. And I’ve never told the truth in a very raw way, like I’m going to do in there. I’ve always kind of like made it more from a broad statement or gave people little details here and there. But that thing—what I’m writing is pretty much uncut, all the way. Yeah. It was pretty crazy to write it. Because I haven’t—Some of the thoughts that I wrote about in there, I haven’t thought about it for, you know, twenty or thirty years. Not thirty years, but twenty, twenty-five years or so. So, it was weird. I even had to stop midway because it was too much for me. Like overwhelming wise. So, I stopped. I haven’t written in it. I haven’t written for about eight months. Yeah. I had my editor edit what I have so far, though. And I haven’t even looked at that yet. I’m just kind of like—I’m all over the place right now. But I feel like when the time is right, I’m going to sit down and finish it, you know. Because the half-book that I wrote which is already 35,000 words or something, I wrote all that within like two weeks. And that’s it. Yeah. So, whenever I get that urge again to do it, I’m pretty sure I’m just going to knock it out. 04:13:20.000 --> 04:13:24.000 So, what gives you that urge, that motivation? 04:13:24.000 --> 04:14:34.000 I don’t know. That’s the weird thing. Yeah. I just kind of know when the time is right, you know. Yeah, it’s weird. I guess when everything else kind of settles down, I’ll be able to focus my thoughts more on that. Because right now, I’m doing like these news interview articles in—and it’s all kind of similar themed. So, I’m having to use my words and my energy to do those interviews. And then, by the time I’m ready to write my book, I can’t really—you know, I don’t want to keep repeating because I get bored easily. So, if I keep repeating that same thought like all week, I’ll be like when I’m writing it, I’m going to feel bored. Therefore, I feel like my reader is going to feel bored. But, I mean, I know that’s not the case. Because the reader has never read it before. But, you know, that’s like me making freaking boiled eggs every day for three days, you know. It’s—If I’m not interested in it, I’m not going to want to make it interesting or sound interesting. And I end up going back and changing everything anyway. I’m very hard on myself. 04:14:34.000 --> 04:14:36.000 Well, yeah. Yeah. You are. 04:14:36.000 --> 04:15:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I’m super particular. So, everything has to be perfect or close to perfect, pretty much. Because people—growing up, people always expected the worst from me, you know what I mean? Or the minimum, because of what I went through. So, now everything that I do has to go above and beyond what people expect. Right? And that’s that pressure, especially the pressure that your parents kind of—They kind of like instill that in you, growing up here in America. So, yeah. 04:15:11.000 --> 04:15:30.000 You do a lot of giving. Like you do things for your community. You give money. You do interviews like this or with the news outlets or whatever. Your work with the Model Minority Project. You really give a lot of yourself. 04:15:30.000 --> 04:15:32.000 Yeah. I try. 04:15:32.000 --> 04:15:34.000 And you expect a lot of yourself. 04:15:34.000 --> 04:16:18.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have my brother to thank for that. He was—He’s tried to be as well-rounded his whole life and tried to show me like who I should be, what I should do, what I should strive to be, you know what I mean? And although I am—the way I grew up is totally different from him, I still kind of—I’m in the same place now. You know, it’s weird. This guy used to make me study the dictionary every day, right? And so, I would have to learn two words from the dictionary and remember it. And I would have to tell him what they were every night. And if I forgot, then he would kick me out of the house, at like six, seven years old. 04:16:18.000 --> 04:16:20.000 Wow! Would you ever forget? 04:16:20.000 --> 04:16:47.000 I forgot once. But then I remembered after I was outside for like two hours. Yeah. (laughs) So, he would do that. I would never want to ask him for help on homework because every time I had one problem, he would create twenty more problems to make sure I would never have that problem again. So, yeah. (laughs) So, that’s what I did. So, perfection is what I always strive for pretty much. Mm-hmm. 04:16:47.000 --> 04:16:49.000 And do you feel like you accomplish it? 04:16:49.000 --> 04:19:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. Who really knows. You know what I mean? That’s a hard one. I think I’ve–I’m the best in—I don’t know how to explain this. I guess I made the best of what I had, to its maximum potential. Yeah. And now I’m in a place where I can expand on that, you know. For so long, I only dealt with my own people, friends, community, and the tattoo community. And I wasn’t able to break through the walls of like everybody else. And now, I’m finally like there. So, it can only go up from here, I guess. But in a different way. I knew I couldn’t get to everybody by being a tattoo artist or purely a tattoo artist. Having people see me as an artist, though, it expanded the audience a little more. And now that the non-profit is in the picture, it’s going to—things are going to be different for the better, you know. I’m able to amplify the voices of kids. I’m able to bring attention to how important like cultural, our cultural arts are, and kind of give hope in a time where everyone is just thinking about nothing but negativity and all the craziness going on in the world, you know. Like I never put anything out there that’s negative. I don’t post like negative quotes online or shame anybody or anything. That’s just not who I am. I believe the best revenge is kindness. You know, it doesn’t matter how society looks at you. It’s not your job to force them to respect you or any of that. It is your job to change the, I guess, the perspective. Change the taboos. Yeah. I think that was about it. (laughs) 04:19:04.000 --> 04:19:06.000 Okay. Okay. 04:19:06.000 --> 04:19:08.000 What else you got? 04:19:08.000 --> 04:19:30.000 Okay. So, three more questions. I’m not making any more notes because I keep thinking of things. Actually, four questions. Okay, then I’m done. What do people not know about you? You’re so open about everything. What’s something we don’t know yet. 04:19:30.000 --> 04:19:32.000 Mmm. I don’t know. 04:19:32.000 --> 04:19:34.000 (laughs) You’re like “I can’t share for a reason.” 04:19:34.000 --> 04:20:53.000 Well, one thing people don’t know really—Most people that look the most put together or they look like they know what they’re doing, usually don’t know what they’re doing, you know. I—When I get into—Obviously, you can’t—You can study, you know, airplanes all day. Like you can know every part on a airplane. You can do simulations. You can do all that. But that doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to fly the airplane. You got to—You don’t know until you get on. That’s the same thing in business or life, everything else, you know. I guess everything that I talk about, I’ve done already rather than I’m going to do, you know. I rarely talk about like “Oh, yeah. You know, I’m going to go—I’m going to buy a Ferrari next year.” Or something. Like everything that I try to teach people in order to help them is stuff that I’ve already been through, you know. And I’ve—Mistakes I’ve already made or what not. I’m not going to sell somebody something that, you know, I didn’t buy myself. But yeah. I think that’s my biggest secret. You just—You don’t know what you’re getting into until you do it. Most of the time when I get into something, I have no clue what I’m doing, you know. You just kind of figure it out along the way. 04:20:53.000 --> 04:21:01.000 Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s a good segue into my next question. What is next for you? What haven’t you done that you want to do? 04:21:01.000 --> 04:21:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s anything— 04:21:04.000 --> 04:21:06.000 Even just like—Really? 04:21:06.000 --> 04:21:10.000 Yeah. I don’t think there’s anything that I want. I mean, I want to do like crazy stuff. So— 04:21:10.000 --> 04:21:13.000 Tell me. Like even just like a vacation that you haven’t taken yet. 04:21:13.000 --> 04:21:15.000 I’m not really into vacations. 04:21:15.000 --> 04:21:16.000 Okay. You’re a workaholic. 04:21:16.000 --> 04:22:07.000 Because they—I feel like they put me further behind. And that stresses me out even more when I get back. That’s the problem. I’ll take a vacation for two, three days but if I do a week, then I have a week of people to respond to, too many projects to do. And it just, it makes me, it messes up my rhythm. You know what I mean? Like I can’t stop my momentum when I have it. Well, I have it all the time, but when I do have it like in a great amount, I can’t just “Oh, I’m going to take three days and not do anything and come back.” It actually makes me—It messes up my mind. It makes me like depressed. It—I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. When I’m home for more than two days, I feel like I didn’t do anything, I’m useless and all that. That’s crazy. 04:22:07.000 --> 04:22:09.000 Do you ever rest then? 04:22:09.000 --> 04:22:40.000 I do. I mean I’m a very—I’m more keen on consistency than, you know—I’ll do like four or five days—I mean four or five days—four or five hours of sleep every day. That’s all I really need. And then I’ll go through my routine, you know. I mean my routine might not be the same every day. Obviously, I have different tattoos every day. Sometimes, I’ll have five, ten minutes here and there and I’ll try and do my other like microtasks in between. But I always get everything done. So— 04:22:40.000 --> 04:22:48.000 Okay. Okay. Two more questions. What are you the most proud of that you’ve done? 04:22:48.000 --> 04:25:02.000 Mmm, it’s probably establishing my non-profit. Because it’s—I, when I started tattooing, it was purely about my survival. I needed money, you know. And as I was able to make money off of it—you know, as your early twenties, you really don’t know what your purpose is. You don’t think about, you know, the 401k and all that. And you’re not taught that in the neighborhood either. You’re not taught how to spend your money, how to invest. I used all my financial aid on like car parts, okay. It’s like $7,000 worth. And I don’t even have that car anymore. But it was dumb. But no one told me it was dumb, right? So, I kept trying to find a purpose. And that purpose always changed. I mean, you know, it could have been like nice cars which I got, and I got bored of. It didn’t make me happy. It could have been like buying the most expensive food. I’ve tried all of it, didn’t make me happy. It became, you know, teaching others how to make a career for themselves. And that was–that made me happy. So, I was just like “Okay. What do I do when tattooing itself is not enough?” So, that’s when I needed another purpose. And that purpose was building other people like me, basically, yeah, to hopefully come together. And, you know, by me giving to them hopefully they do the same in return for the next generation after them. Because every—we’re losing our—I think we’re losing our culture right now. I think that the kids are just too lazy and uninterested. And parents are feeding into it, I guess you could say. I see more and more the parents are having to learn how to speak English to communicate with their kids, rather than their kids having to learn Vietnamese to communicate with their parents, right? 04:25:02.000 --> 04:25:03.000 Okay, yes. 04:25:03.000 --> 04:26:47.000 And even my cousin. My cousin came here—he’s my age—he came here when he was 12 from Vietnam. He doesn’t even understand Vietnamese today. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he lives in Chula Vista. It’s not like, you know—he’s not in the Midwest or anything. So, yeah, we’re losing it. My Lion dance group disbanded because the kids just—they won’t want to do it anymore. They’re not interested in it anymore. But yeah. It’s like a epidemic, right now, pretty much. Especially in San Diego, you know, where, you know, there’s a mix. There’s a lot of Asians here but there is not predominantly Asian. We’re suffering a lot from it. I feel like a lot of non-profits are going through it, though. Because I have a client who runs a dance, a little dance non-profit company for, you know, young kids at Balboa Park. And she tells me every year there’s less and less people. And the less people there are, the less board members are there going to be because of the parents. And then no parents means there’s not a lot of programs which means no donors for programs because they don’t have it. And then eventually it just evaporates. You know what I mean? But, I mean, the good thing is—the good thing that came from this AAPI movement is we came together. We established a new cycle of initiatives that will last, you know, for how long. I don’t know how long it’s going to last. I guess as long as this is a problem for us, which is going to be forever. But you know people forget. And then people move on. And then something else has to happen. And it just starts all over again. It’s just like war, you know. 04:26:47.000 --> 04:26:51.000 That’s a good analogy. 04:26:51.000 --> 04:27:16.000 Mm-hmm. So, when does it really stop? And I don’t like the fact that some non-profits that I’ve seen, they just try to create more problems to solve when, you know, they run out of funding or something. I don’t know. It’s weird. I’m always torn with that. Like what does an organization do when everything is solved? Right? (laughs) 04:27:16.000 --> 04:27:17.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. 04:27:17.000 --> 04:27:20.000 It’s like what’s a military contract going to do when the war is over? 04:27:20.000 --> 04:27:23.000 Right. In peace time. Yeah. 04:27:23.000 --> 04:27:43.000 Yeah. So, it’s a very great thing but I feel like some people take advantage of it and those people make it look bad for everybody else. Right? Just like with tattoo artists. Some guys are knuckleheads and make everyone else look bad. Yeah. So, that’s why I always—I get pulled over walking all the time. (laughs) 04:27:43.000 --> 04:27:44.000 Because of the way you look. 04:27:44.000 --> 04:28:07.000 Yep. Yep. But that’s okay. Because I’m always polite. Whatever. I never give them a hard time. And I would pull myself over if I looked like this. You know, right? So, that’s how it’s going to be for a while ‘til things change, ‘til I like make a big donation to the police or something. (both laughs) That’s how it all works. 04:28:07.000 --> 04:28:27.000 So, you mentioned the kids losing the culture. That’s a good segue into my last question. So, you have a new granddaughter. What do you want for her in terms of this world she lives in, and also community and culture? 04:28:27.000 --> 04:29:56.000 Well, interestingly, she’s Black and Asian. So, she’s going to have a very interesting, you know, take on the world. I want her to absorb both cultures, obviously. And celebrate it. And, I mean, my wife is pretty Americanized. But she still has her, you know, Asian cooking roots, traditions. Even though she’s the one that was born here in her family, and the youngest, she’s the only one who knows how to do like the traditional stuff, which is weird. And me too. I’m the only one who cúngs (cungs, ancestor worship rituals, Vietlish) and stuff. And my brother’s the one who was born in Vietnam. So, I mean we can obviously like teach her those things. Have her grow up in that environment. And then my stepdaughter’s boyfriend’s mom, she’s very, you know, she’s a very proud Black woman as well. I’m sure she’ll teach her everything she needs to know about what to look out for and all that. So, yeah, it should be interesting. I just want—I mean, she’s in this area. So, it’s not that bad. I mean, we’re really accepting. Everyone here is pretty much mixed now. And everyone respects each other. I mean, we respect each other’s food, cultures, all that. We celebrate it here. So, I don’t think it’s too crazy down here. As long as she doesn’t go to anywhere else, we're good. 04:29:56.000 --> 04:29:59.000 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 04:29:59.000 --> 04:30:07.000 Yeah. But I want her to be aware who she is, where she comes from. Yeah. So— 04:30:07.000 --> 04:30:13.000 Is there anything I should have asked that I didn’t ask? Or is there anything else that you want to say? 04:30:13.000 --> 04:30:38.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I think we covered everything. What else? Oh, in regards to the kids now not being motivated by culture and stuff. Well, I feel like for the longest time, you know, there’s teachers—Asian teachers look a certain way. Parents— 04:30:38.000 --> 04:30:40.000 You mean like schoolteachers? 04:30:40.000 --> 04:32:32.000 Yeah. Parents look a certain way, have a certain way of thinking, whatever. And I look different. Okay? So, I feel like they may absorb it differently coming from me. Because I knew when I was in my Lion’s Dance group, all the kids, you know, they thought they were so cool because I’m tatted and everything. And I was doing this thing with them, you know. And I was older than them and they looked up to that, right? So, I feel like it’s the same way with, you know, if I go to the high school auditorium and speak to the kids. They’re going to take it differently than if some, you know, let’s say like an Asian engineer or something came and talked to them, right? Because they can’t connect with those people. People who have taken a different path, pretty much. Because most of these kids that I’m trying to help, they’ve never thought about college in their life. Because they never thought it was an option. Nor did they think any of these careers that I’m trying to make them aware of exist either, you know. So, we want to do a career workshop sometime in the future where there would be let’s say a station on photography, and one on graphic design, one on barbering, one on, I don’t know, fashion or something. So, we want to make all that available so that these kids understand what they’re getting into before they go into it. Because half of the time, when you check off that major box for college, you don’t know what you’re about to do. Right? And you might go to school for, you know, four years to be a graphic designer and realize like there’s no jobs in it, or you hate it. All right? So, it’s good to have insight into that before you sign up and spend all your money on that. 04:32:32.000 --> 04:32:35.000 Yeah. So, you want to do like a career fair type of thing, you said? 04:32:35.000 --> 04:32:41.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want to do that like once every season or something. Yeah. 04:32:41.000 --> 04:32:44.000 Like tailored towards teenagers. 04:32:44.000 --> 04:32:51.000 The arts only. Yeah, so high school seniors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don’t know how I’m doing it yet, but we’ll see. 04:32:51.000 --> 04:32:52.000 I’m sure you’ll find a way. 04:32:52.000 --> 04:33:00.000 Um, Thao said there’s a lot of libraries and stuff that offer their space or something. So, I’m like “Alright.” We’ll see. 04:33:00.000 --> 04:33:01.000 Yeah. Okay. 04:33:01.000 --> 04:33:13.000 Yeah. It’s just, I need someone to talk to them. But I’ve got to feel people out because if they’re not ready to see somebody like me when I approach them, then it’s very interesting where it ends up. (laughs) 04:33:13.000 --> 04:33:16.000 Well, I have connections in the library world— 04:33:16.000 --> 04:33:17.000 Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. I’ll let you know. 04:33:17.000 --> 04:33:20.000 —being a librarian. So— 04:33:20.000 --> 04:33:24.000 Yeah. My brother worked at the Linda Vista Library for twelve years. 04:33:24.000 --> 04:33:25.000 That’s awesome. 04:33:25.000 --> 04:33:35.000 Mm-hmm. I used to go there all the time with him. Because I had to go to work with him. And I used to sit there and just read books all day as a kid. Yeah. That’s why I don’t read now. (laughs) 04:33:35.000 --> 04:33:36.000 (laughs) You had enough! 04:33:36.000 --> 04:33:40.000 Yeah. I hate reading, but I’m writing a book which is ironic— 04:33:40.000 --> 04:33:41.000 Yeah, very ironic. 04:33:41.000 --> 04:33:55.000 —but I like to read things that are relevant to—more like non-fiction, like the news or something. I’m not really a fantasy guy. Because I don’t like living in a fantasy. (both laugh) 04:33:55.000 --> 04:33:57.000 Is the Linda Vista Library still there? 04:33:57.000 --> 04:33:58.000 Mm-hmm. 04:33:58.000 --> 04:34:00.000 Do you think about your time there every time you drive by? 04:34:00.000 --> 04:34:03.000 I volunteered there when I was thirteen for like a year. 04:34:03.000 --> 04:34:04.000 Cool. 04:34:04.000 --> 04:34:15.000 I was trying to work there, but they didn’t want to hire me. It’s a city job. So, it’s like they couldn’t hire anyone under a certain age anymore, I think, at the time. 04:34:15.000 --> 04:34:16.000 Okay. I think it’s sixteen. 04:34:16.000 --> 04:34:27.000 Yeah. Because when my brother was working there in the ‘90s, I think like ’94, ’95, he was getting paid a lot, like $12 an hour. At sixteen years old. 04:34:27.000 --> 04:34:28.000 That’s good. 04:34:28.000 --> 04:34:29.000 Yeah. That’s ridiculous. 04:34:29.000 --> 04:34:34.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was making $5.75 when I was sixteen. 04:34:34.000 --> 04:34:35.000 Oh, yeah? 04:34:35.000 --> 04:34:38.000 Yeah. That was in the mid-90s, I think. Yeah. 04:34:38.000 --> 05:34:37.000 Yeah. That was crazy. He only worked maybe three days a week. And that was enough for him to go on dates and stuff. So, yeah. That’s my life. 05:34:37.000 --> 05:34:49.000 Okay. Is there anything else you want to add before we— 05:34:49.000 --> 05:34:52.000 I think that’s it that I can think of. 05:34:52.000 --> 05:34:56.000 Okay. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts. 05:34:56.000 --> 05:34:57.000 No worries. 05:34:57.000 --> 05:35:00.000 And doing this for the community. All right. 05:35:00.000 --> 05:35:05.000 So, what’s next? You’re going to get a few on there and build a website? 05:35:05.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yes. We are going to—(recording ends). NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023.
Description
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Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
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SC027-110
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2023-03-06
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video
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Dennis Doan
Contributor
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Jennifer Ho
Subject
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Tattoo artists; Philanthropy
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San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a>
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Dennis Doan
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Amy Vo
Interviewee
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Jennifer Ho
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml
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Vietnamese American identity
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6.0 Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022. SC027-109 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity immigration community Jennifer Ho Amy Vo moving image HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/65ce467b74a97eb8dd1a08baae44c2fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Jennifer Ho, November 16, 2022, by Amy Vo. 0 29 Childhood and family In this segment, Jenn talks about her childhood and family life, first in the Chicago suburbs and then in San Diego. She also shares her family’s migration stories and how her parents met. Hinsdale, Illinois ; Chicago ; office cleaning ; Vietnam ; grandparents ; San Diego ; Pensacola, Florida ; Pepperidge Farms ; Arizona ; Midwest 0 817 Vietnamese culture and community Jenn talks about her relationships to the Vietnamese communities in Chicago and in San Diego, and how her identity as a Vietnamese American has changed over time. Uptown ; Chicago ; Tet ; Vietnamese language ; Asian American identity ; Vietnamese American identity ; immigrant families ; political values 0 1628 Relationships and silences Jenn reflects on her relationship with her parents and the silences within her family. She also speculates on how she would feel about a future trip to Vietnam. ancestral inheritance ; storytelling ; family narratives 0 2223 Vietnamese identity and personal evolution Jenn speculates on her parents identities as Americans and how they may have changed since coming to the U.S. She also reflects on what makes a person Vietnamese or not. entrepreneurship ; American dream ; immigrant women ; culture and identity 0 2534 Childhood dreams and motherly influence Jenn shares her childhood dreams, and reflects on how her younger self would see her today. She also talks about the traits inherited from her mother. Hollywood ; Sandra Bullock ; libraries ; service ; mentorship 0 3114 Grandparents and language Jenn talks about her relationship with her grandparents and the love they had for each other. She also talks about their community in San Diego and the final days of their lives. Additionally, she talks about her Vietnamese language ability compared with her brother’s language ability. memory loss ; Chicago ; Thailand ; Vietnamese language ; City Heights ; Little Saigon ; Somalians ; Ethiopians ; Latinos ; community 0 3849 Food Jenn talks about her favorite Vietnamese food. She also talks about family mealtimes and how they were affected by her parents’ work schedule. Bo kho ; curry ; IndoMie ; Kung Fu Noodles ; banh xeo ; Pho Xe Lua ; banh cuon ; Thai chilies ; Taco Bell ; Laughing Cow ; Spam ; liverwurst ; pate 0 Oral history Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States.
 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 This is Amy Vo interviewing Jennifer Ho for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 16th at 12:15 p.m. Eastern time, and we are meeting via Zoom. Hi Jenn! 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.000 Hey Amy. (both chuckle) 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:41.000 I thought I’d start with your childhood and ask you about where you grew up and what you were like as a kid, or how you remember you were like. (laughs) 00:00:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000 Okay. I was born in Hinsdale, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, in 1982. And what I was like as a kid. I was pretty—I was an indoor kid. Just read a lot of books. Didn’t do anything athletic. Pretty quiet. Yeah, just kind of a nerdy kid, you know. But with that said, not great at school. I was really good at like reading and writing but, you know, didn’t do great in P.E. or math or science or anything that didn’t have to do with like reading a lot. (laughs) So, yeah, I did get detention a lot because I didn’t like to do my homework. I could have done it, but I was kind of lazy, so my parents didn’t like that. And I think if you asked them, I was pretty rebellious, especially as I got into middle and high school. I mean, (chuckles) like any normal kid, I wanted to hang out and go out with my friends. But they kind of wanted me to be at home all the time, which I was fine with when I was younger. But, you know, they were scared of the world and scared of things happening to me. So, they kind of just wanted me to stay home a lot. So, I was “rebellious” in the sense that I wanted to go hang out with my friends and not do anything wild or crazy. Like we just wanted to, you know, watch TV together at someone’s house or play in the park or whatever. So, yeah, kind of nerdy but also, I guess, rebellious, if you were to ask them. They were just always worried about everything, especially my dad. So that’s how I would describe myself. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:03:02.000 That was part of another question I had, like how your family saw you as you were growing up. And I was wondering like if you could tell me about your family and the people who raised you and like why you think they saw you that way, I guess. 00:03:02.000 --> 00:07:04.000 Yeah, sure. So, something that they told me a lot in Vietnamese was “This is not how a good Vietnamese girl is supposed to be.” So, I was not a very good Vietnamese girl by their standards. So, I was raised by my mom and dad. My mom was the breadwinner. And they were married until I was 19, and then they got divorced. So, I had my dad’s parents around a lot of the time. My parents worked a lot. My mom owned—She owned a series of businesses throughout my childhood. But the main one was she owned an office cleaning business. So, at night, she and my dad would go to different office buildings in the San Diego area and clean them. They were custodians. And so, it was their business, but it was really my mom who did all the hard work. And my dad just kind of did what she told him to do. So, she was really the boss at work and in life. And so, since my parents worked so much, my grandparents looked after us a lot. And my grandma and my dad and his two brothers came over—came to the U.S. in 1975, August of 1975. And my grandfather was planning to go with them, and the story goes—And it’s kind of fuzzy in my head and I don’t know if this—how accurate this is. But the story is that he was all set to go with them to the U.S. But he, at the last minute, decided to stay in Việt Nam (Vietnam). And this is because he was a pretty high-ranking person in the military. And he just couldn’t leave his men behind. So, he actually didn’t end up coming until I was seven years old which is when I first met him. And that was in 1989, when I was seven. So, after he came, he moved in with us and was part of our lives and looked after my brother and me while my parents were at work. And my mom’s parents had passed away a long time ago. My—Her father had never really been a part of their lives in Vietnam. He was not a great father figure, not a great husband at all, from what I understand. So, he was never part of my mom’s life. But her mother—My mom immigrated here ; I don’t know what year. But she came here with her mother and three of her sisters and one of her cousins. But she passed away, my grandmother passed away when I was, I want to say, four years old. And my mom was pregnant with my brother. And she didn’t get to say goodbye, because she was pregnant. And my—her sisters didn’t want to tell her that their mom passed away. Because they didn’t want the grief to affect the baby. So, that’s how the story goes anyway. And I say that because my parents don’t really talk about anything from their past or any of their memories or anything. So, we—my brother and I—have kind of like clobbered together these little bits and pieces about them. So, we don’t really know, except for the little bit that they tell us. So, yeah, that’s who raised me. I mean my grandparents, I think, thought I was a great kid because I read books all the time, which, you know, to them is the mark of a smart person. I don’t know. But, yeah, but my parents thought I was a very naughty little girl. (both laugh) So, yeah. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:24.000 I like hearing about your different parents’ and grandparents’ stories and how they came here. Can you talk more about how your parents met? And then—Because you said you were born in Illinois. But then, when you moved to San Diego, I’d like to hear about that too. 00:07:24.000 --> 00:11:03.000 Sure. So, my parents met in Florida. They had immigrated here separately. Didn’t know each other. And when they first came to the U.S., they both arrived in Florida. So, the story goes, they were—their mothers were taking ESL classes together at the community college, I think—I’m assuming it was the community college ; I don’t know—in Pensacola, Florida. And I don’t really know what happened but I, from what I understand, it was like “Oh. You have a daughter? Oh, I have a son. They should meet.” (both laugh) So, that’s how my parents met. And—Oh, you asked about how they–I think you asked about how they came to the U.S. My mom’s oldest sister, my Dì Hai (Di Hai, second aunt) she was a translator at the embassy in Vietnam. So, I think she just kind of like knew people and she was able to get her siblings on a helicopter. They didn’t know that they were going until the night before. So, it was like “Okay. Pack your bags. We’re outta here first thing in the morning.” And my mom has three—My mom technically has four sisters. She’s the second to youngest. But her youngest sister was given up for adoption when she was a baby because my—their family was just so poor, and my grandmother just couldn’t afford to take care of another person. And the grandfather, my grandfather, was just not really in the picture. He kind of came and went. So, she was doing—she was raising these four girls on a single person’s income, basically, in Vietnam. So, when she got pregnant again by my grandfather—and he wasn’t around, of course—she just kind of had to give the baby to, I guess, to a family friend. And they’re still in touch with that sister who still lives in Vietnam. But I’ve never met her. I wouldn’t know her if I saw her on the street. And my mom also said she wouldn’t know her sister if she saw her on the street. But they’re still technically in touch. One of my aunts converses with her regularly. So, that’s how they came here. There was a point to telling you about that sister. So, since there were technically five girls—yeah, my mom and her four sisters—there were technically five girls in the family. But since one of them was with her adoptive family, I don’t think it was actually ever a formal adoption. It was more like “Here. Take care of my child,” you know. So, since that sister wasn’t really in the picture, one of my mom’s cousins kind of took the place of that sister, so—when they all came here. So, that’s what I mean when my mom—when I say my mom came here with her three sisters, her cousin, and her mother. And then my dad, I don’t know his migration story. He came—his father was in the military and pretty high ranking, from what I understand. So, I’m assuming that’s how they managed to get passage here. But both of my parents came on helicopters. They weren’t boat people, so to speak. So, I think they were pretty privileged in that sense. 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:16.000 Yeah. So, after Florida, did they—or did they get married in Florida and then move to Illinois? Or how is their story like in America and moving around? 00:11:16.000 --> 00:13:26.000 Yeah. So, they got married, I want to say, in Florida. And the sad thing is I don’t really know because my parents’ marriage was so miserable from the start. And my childhood is just so full of them fighting all the time. So, it’s not like their wedding was any kind of happy memory that they talked about. So, I think they got married in Florida. And then they moved to the Chicago suburbs. And, I want to say they—So, my mom used to work for Pepperidge Farms. You know, they make the cookies. And she still—she gets a pension from them now, actually, which is kind of funny and I don’t know why. But she worked for Pepperidge Farm in the Chicago suburbs. And I think that’s why they moved there. And they moved there with my mom’s—or they moved there with my dad and his siblings and his mother. So, basically, she—it was her moving her in-laws and her husband all the way to Illinois. And then, meanwhile, my mom’s family had kind of scattered a little bit, but mostly went to the west coast. One of my aunt’s, my Dì Tư (Di Tu, fourth aunt) moved to Arizona. And then, I think the rest of them went to San Diego. And then, so obviously the weather in southern California is far superior to the weather in the Midwest. So, eventually, when I was four years old and my brother was one, we all joined them in San Diego. And by then, my Di Tu, I think, had also come to San Diego. And this is all very fuzzy, and I would hate for somebody to write all this as fact. Because like I said, we don’t really talk about any of this personal history in my family. So, again, this is just like little bits of information that I’ve gathered. So—But I’m pretty sure that that’s what happened. That’s the chain of events. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:31.000 Yeah. That’s impressive, though, that you’re able to piece it together. (both laugh) 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:37.000 I mean after forty years of cobbling information together yeah, that’s what I’ve come up with. 00:13:37.000 --> 00:14:06.000 Yeah. So, I guess you may not have much memory of Illinois when you were like a toddler. But I was wondering like if you did, do you remember about how your parents or family members immersed you in Vietnamese culture? And you can talk more about that when you were more like aware of things in San Diego too. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.000 Okay. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:14.000 But I was also curious if you have any memories of things in the Chicago suburbs. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:40.000 Sure. I don’t really have a lot of memories in the Chicago suburbs or the Chicago area because I was so little. But the cool thing is that after grad school I moved to Chicago. And I was kind of able to revisit the areas that my family frequented. When I moved to Chicago, one of the neighborhoods that I lived in was Uptown, Chicago, which is traditionally a landing pad for immigrant communities. And, most recently, it’s been the Vietnamese community. So, if you go to Uptown, there’s a lot of Vietnamese shops and restaurants and people. And the neighborhood’s getting gentrified. So, a lot of the Vietnamese families are getting pushed out into more western neighborhoods, including the suburbs. But it’s still known as a Vietnamese area. So, when my mom and my brother came to visit me in Chicago, we kind of wandered around. And my mom was like “I remember this neighborhood. This is where we went to go grocery shopping. Your grandmother always wanted to come here and, you know, get her groceries and her jewelry and her things from this area.” So, I don’t have actual memories from when I was a kid, but it was nice to know that my mom had memories there— 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah. 00:15:41.000 --> 00:19:26.000 —So, that was cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That made me really happy. And then as a kid in San Diego—There’s a lot of Vietnamese people in San Diego. So, I—like we did Vietnamese things. But nothing was ever explained to me. Like we celebrated Tết (Tet, lunar new year) every year. We would go to, you know—we would go grocery shopping or go to cultural events or jewelry stores. My grandma loved jewelry, so I have to keep bringing that up. It wasn’t all real jewelry. There was like a lot of like fake costume jewelry. But she was very glamorous. And so, I always, when I think of her, I think of like the way she would take forever to get ready. Because she just always looked very put together and beautiful, and jewelry was part of that. So, anyway, so she likes jewelry. What else? So, yeah. Nothing was really explained to me as a kid. And I have a lot of memories of trying to speak Vietnamese and just being made fun of by my family, like every time. And memory is kind of tricky. So, maybe it’s just those select few times that it happened that stand out in my head. But I never really held on to the language, speaking-wise, as much as I should have. And I still don’t really try because I still hear like my grandma’s voice in my head making fun of me, like speaking Vietnamese like the robot would. Because, you know, Vietnamese is so tonal (makes an up and down wave-like motion with her right hand) and everything goes up and down. So, she would just, she would kind of make fun of me by saying, speaking sentences in like a very monotone voice (speaks very monotone), you know, which I can kind of laugh at now. But it still affects my confidence, speaking-wise. So, I don’t know how I got on that. But yeah. So, in terms of like Vietnamese community and culture, like my parents had Vietnamese friends and not a whole lot of extended family. That sounds weird to say because my mom has three sisters here, and my dad has two brothers that were nearby. But there weren’t like a lot of little cousins that I hung out with. I, to this day, I only have like—I only have four cousins total on each side, and, yeah, so not a lot of people to hang out with that were family. So, yeah, I guess I kind of always knew that I was a Vietnamese person but didn’t really start to want to connect until pretty recently, like maybe in the past decade or so, since I moved to Chicago and was in Uptown and kind of started to see myself through this lens of being an Asian American person and being a Vietnamese American person. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I found myself removed from being in southern California amongst so many Asian people. And then suddenly being in the Midwest, being surrounded by white and Black people and not seeing faces like mine. And that’s when I started to connect to being Vietnamese. But before that, I was just kind of —It wasn’t something that I thought a lot about. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah. That’s really interesting, and I think segues into another question I had which is about how do you identify yourself? And how has that changed over time? And I was also wondering about like the friends you had in San Diego and like who you surrounded yourself with and whether or not that influenced how you saw yourself or identified. 00:19:54.000 --> 00:22:20.000 Okay. Sure. So, I identify myself as a straight, cis-gendered, Vietnamese American person. I always say Vietnamese American because I feel like if you don’t have some kind of—what’s it called, that part of speech—you know, the adjective next to American. Then people assume you’re white. I mean, Vietnamese people do that too, you know. They think of American people as white people. So, I always say Vietnamese American. And I feel like the friends that I had growing up—and this only occurred to me recently as I looked back, as I reflected—but the friends that I had growing up, and definitely the friends that I have today, are all like “hyphenated” (gestures air quotes with hands) American. Like they all come, for the most part, they all come from immigrant families, whether they’re Vietnamese or Asian or not. Like they’re almost always children of immigrants. So—and I just, I think that part of our selves that’s kind of American but very not American so to speak, that really shapes the way that we see the world and the way we interact with the world. So, I’ve just always felt more of a kinship for people who are from immigrant families. And, yeah, as an adult, that’s definitely true. Yeah. I don’t necessarily have—As a kid, I didn’t have a lot of Asian American friends, even though my neighborhood was very—it was white and Asian. But as an adult, I kind of seek out people who are Asian American, because I feel like the—I don’t know. Even though Asian Americans are not a monolith, by any means, I think the way the world lumps us together creates solidarity and community. And I find a lot of comfort in that as an adult. So, yeah. I think just my sense of being is the healthiest when I’m around people who can identify with what I’ve gone through and vice versa. We just—I feel like we just understand each other better. Does that answer your question? (chuckles) 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Yeah. I had a complicated question. Because it’s just like it’s about identity but also about community. And like I think they are intertwined. And so, you did answer the question. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.000 Okay. Cool. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:23:13.000 So, what would you say your relationship is to the Vietnamese American community now? And you had mentioned earlier about how it really struck you like moving to the Midwest and not seeing as many people like you. And so, I could see how that was like a turning point and perhaps how it evolved over time. But if you can talk about that, like how you feel like your relationship has been over time. 00:23:13.000 --> 00:26:49.000 Sure. I would say that it’s complicated, my relationship with the Vietnamese American community. I think probably anyone would agree with this. A Vietnamese person is not the same thing as a Vietnamese American person. You could probably say that about anybody from any culture, country in the world. Not to say that all Vietnamese people are the same as each other or all Vietnamese Americans are the same. But there is quite a rift in our—I’ll just say it—our political values. So, as a Vietnamese American person—and just an American person of color, in general—I am pretty liberal and leftist in my values and my thinking. But Vietnamese people from Vietnam are often on the other side. I think I read this somewhere. I think it’s true that Vietnamese Americans, statistically speaking, are the largest group of Asian Americans that voted for Donald Trump. And that’s because of our, I’ll just say, our childhood—or our trauma with the war and communism and nationalism. So, that history has, you know, carried forth through today. So, I don’t like that, and I see that in my own family. But I also—yeah, I don’t like to judge people or keep people or not keep people in my life due to political values. You know, I really feel like we’re more alike than the same in that we all just want to, you know, take care of our families and have a comfortable income. Like everybody wants those things. Every human wants those things. So, I don’t like seeing that in my community and in the people that I love. Not to say that my parents have those values necessarily. So, (coughs) excuse me. So, I would say that I’m proud of my parents. I’m proud of the way that they’ve come through on the other side in terms of their struggle, not to say that there haven’t been any struggles or there still isn’t trauma. And I’m proud of my–the Vietnamese American community for, in a lot of ways, holding on to our culture. You know, I can’t speak as a person from Vietnam, but I still see that Vietnamese people are very proud of their culture and their history. And I wish I saw it in my own parents. But I like hearing about Vietnamese people who like to talk about what they’ve gone through and will share that with their children. Like your parents, like that’s really cool that your dad will tell you everything and share his feelings. So, that’s really awesome. So, yeah. I’m definitely not ashamed of being Vietnamese American, but in terms of what it means to be a Vietnamese American, I don’t know. I feel close to my culture but at the same time I’m not really. Yeah. That’s something that I’m still thinking about, as you can tell. I don’t know how I feel about it. But I definitely don’t try to hide it, for what it’s worth. 00:26:49.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Yeah. That makes sense, though. I feel like I have the same kind of feelings, too, about myself within a larger culture and like a larger culture that does have rifts in it, generational ones usually. 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.000 Yeah. Absolutely. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:28:32.000 So, I guess like this is kind of related. Like after thinking about and, for you, piecing together your family’s migration story, like how do you think—Or maybe it’s a little harder since they’ve never like directly told you a actual narrative about it. But like as they get further from that time in their lives and like do you see that—Well, I guess, how does like their culture and their identities as being from Vietnam, like how, does that stay intact and how does that change? And how do those narratives change, I guess? Like have you noticed when they do say something maybe offhandedly, like their comments changing or like—I guess I’m asking for you to reflect on those stories and like what you perceive your family’s narratives to be, like and how much that feels a part of your life and your story, I guess? That’s a little complicated. (chuckles) 00:28:32.000 --> 00:31:14.000 No. It is complicated but I think that’s a really cool question. So, it does feel like my story because in the larger sense of like spirituality and the universe, I do feel like we inherit stories and trauma and success and happiness and all those things from our ancestors, even if we are not aware of it. But in the direct sense, yeah. Just because I can’t speak to my family’s story, I just don’t—yeah, I don’t know. Like I—Like the times that they have told me these bits and pieces, it was only the result of someone, usually my brother who is really good about this. He’ll ask really direct questions, like questions that you and I talk about for our oral history interviews. Like he’ll say like—Like he asked my aunts, because we were all at Thanksgiving dinner—this was like ten years ago or something. But he was—he asked like “how did you get to go to Vietnam? Like logistics were involved? Like how did you and not other people get seats on this helicopter?” So, that’s how I know about my aunt working at the embassy, being a translator. Because he—If you ask my, anyone in my family, like (talks in a lower, comical voice) “What was it like to be a kid in Vietnam?” they’re not going to know. Like they’ll just be like “It was fine.” Like that’ll be their answer. (both laugh) So, you really have to get down to the nitty gritty and ask these very specific questions. And I haven’t really done that with them. And I think part of the reason is because they—And I don’t really want to talk about this on the record. So, I’ll just say they—I didn’t have a great childhood, a lot of which is probably due to their trauma and passing it along to me in ways they didn’t intend. So, I don’t feel a strong emotional connection to them. And part of me doesn’t really want to talk to them about it. So, yeah, I feel like I could ask more, and I could learn more about them and about myself. But there’s just already such a rift there between us that I just have kind of given up on them in that sense. I see them every weekend and we’re fine. But I don’t have that sense of closeness to them to where I could approach those topics with them. 00:31:14.000 --> 00:32:28.000 Yeah. I think that like we talk about family narratives and stuff. But part of why we work on this project is to hear about the overarching narratives that happen in the community. And, like you said, those stories are part of like you, and like inherited in a like physiological way even. But like knowing that there’s a greater pattern among other people as well, outside of your family, I feel like is another way to get in touch with, you know, our culture and our history as Vietnamese people, Vietnamese American people. So, I was wondering have you ever thought about, or have you ever been back to, Vietnam? And like if you haven’t, has it ever crossed your mind? Or like is it something that you’d want to do? And like your thoughts around that and how you would go about it. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:36:54.000 So, I’ve never been to Vietnam. We—my mom and my brother and I were tentatively planning to go in 2020 and that was—that didn’t happen. I would like to go, partially as a tourist because I’m just interested in seeing other places, and partially to see where my parents grew up. But I don’t think I don’t think even they want to see where they grew up. Like they just are not, from what I can tell and I could be totally wrong on this, but they just aren’t connected to their past. Like I know that if we go, I’m not going to hear stories about anything unless I ask really pointed questions. And I kind of feel like if my mom wanted to share, she would have. So, I could—If and when I go with my mom and my brother, I know that I can be like “Okay, mom. Where’s the house where you grew up? And who was your best friend? And was there a swing set you played on?” I’m just making things up. And I could ask these direct, pointed questions—my brother definitely could. But I kind of feel like she—because she was such an unhappy kid, from what I understand anyway—I just don’t really want to go there. I feel like I should go there, but I mean I don’t want to go there mentally or emotionally. I don’t mean to Vietnam. Yeah, I don’t know if I want to put her through that, and I don’t know if I want to put myself through that. But I am still curious, and I’m still interested. And I think if she really put her foot down and was like “Okay. We’re going this year. We’re buying the tickets,” then I would go. But it’s just not really a priority for me. I feel like I ought to go and if my parents pass away—I mean, of course they’re going to pass away one day—but if I don’t go with them before they pass away, I think I might regret it. But I just don’t know if I’m ready. And I also don’t want to be disappointed by their lack of reflection or storytelling or any kind of information sharing. And I have a feeling, knowing them, that that’s how it would be. My dad actually went to Vietnam with his new wife last year. (clears throat) Excuse me. And I asked him how it went, and he was like “It was fine. It was good.” (Vo laughs and Ho shakes her head and furrows her brow) And like he—I know he visited some people. He visited like one of his aunts and some of his cousins that he like knew as a kid. He showed me some pictures. But when I tried—I actually tried to ask him specific questions. I don’t remember what I asked him. But I got nothing out of it. Like he didn’t have any kind of reflection to share with me. And I think that part of them—if it ever existed—that reflective, I don’t know, muscle, that sense of wanting to know yourself or get in touch with your feelings, if they ever had that it’s atrophied. Like they just don’t think about the past. They don’t reflect on it, except to maybe think about, I don’t know, regrets or not having money or direct, today-related things like that. But they just don’t think about their pasts. So, going back to your question, yeah. I’d go to Vietnam, but I don’t know. I’m just not—I would really have to check myself so that I don’t have high expectations. Because I’m pretty sure they would not be met which is a horrible attitude (laughs) but, you know, just keepin’ it real. I just don’t think that I would get a lot out of it. Or I’d have to really prepare somehow, and I don’t know how I would do that. So, yeah. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.000 Yeah. I mean I feel like that’s being realistic. (both laugh) You know your parents. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:50.000 I guess that makes me curious about what they’re like and how they keep in touch with like their identities as Vietnamese people and like how they see themselves in America. Because like I feel like thinking about their past, that’s so intertwined with like their origins as being from Vietnam. So, like trying to disconnect from that, I wonder like how do they—like from what you can tell, like how do they feel as Americans and as being Vietnamese in America? 00:37:50.000 --> 00:41:52.000 That’s a good question. You know, I’m not sure. I feel like my—there’s a lot of really good—mmm, how do I say this? So, my mom and her sisters are all really tough, independent, strong women. And my grandmother was the same way, their mom. There, definitely the thing that I appreciate most about my mom is that she’s like crazy hardworking and there’s nothing she cannot do if she decides she wants to do it. So, she’s always been very strong-willed and independent and entrepreneurial. So, I think—And her sisters are the same way. So, I think as it relates to your question and their identities as Vietnamese Americans, I think there’s a sense of pride in the lives that they’ve built for themselves, in that they haven’t really had to ever—And I’m not, definitely not, judging anyone who does this because I kind of get it—But they’ve never had to be in a relationship for the sake of being taken care of. They’ve never married for money which I kind of see a lot of immigrant women doing which, again, I get it, you know. It’s expensive. And, I mean, buying a home is expensive and taking care of yourself and your kids, that’s not easy. So, definitely don’t judge people for doing that. But my mom and her sisters have never had to do that. So, I think that this American dream as we call it, which is BS in a lot of ways, has really worked out for them. And I’m very proud of them for doing that. My dad’s side is—I don’t know, my dad wasn’t the breadwinner. And he was taken care of by my mom while they were married. So, he’s not built the same way as they are. That’s all I’ll say. (chuckles) But in terms of carrying their heritage, all of them, as Vietnamese Americans, you know, I don’t know. All my—My parents and aunts and uncles all speak Vietnamese and eat Vietnamese food and celebrate all of the traditional holidays. But, you know, I’m not sure what it is about them that makes them specifically Vietnamese, other than those things, which you could say about, you know, a Polish person or a, you know, anybody else from another culture and country. So, I don’t know. That’s a question that I think about a lot, too, for them and for myself and my brother. Like what is it that makes us Vietnamese? Or what makes us special? I don’t really know. And I don’t want to just pin everything on food and holidays. Because that’s kind of just like anybody can cook food and anybody can celebrate a holiday. So, what is it about Vietnamese people or, you know, what is it that makes the culture unique or special or is a marking of that specific culture? I don’t know. This will be a good question to ask them. But I don’t know if they would be willing to answer that (both laugh) either. Yeah. I’m not sure. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that. That was my long-winded way of saying I have no idea. 00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Well, that’s a hard question and like you can’t really pinpoint like a specific thing. But like—So, and then it’s hard to think about like big picture kind of things, too. But I thought I’d ask and see if you had any—what your thoughts were. (laughs) 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.000 Cool, cool. I’m glad you asked. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:41.000 I’m going to switch gears a little bit and ask about if you had any goals or dreams for when you grew up, as you were growing up. Like what did you think about adulthood being like and what you envisioned yourself being? Like what did you want when you were growing up? And like how would your younger self feel about where you are now? 00:42:41.000 --> 00:45:28.000 That’s a good question. When I was a child, I wanted to be a movie star. (both laugh) I literally wanted to be a movie star. And I was obsessed with movies and Hollywood, and I would go to the movies and see like the, you know, the big posters (indicates a large square item with hands) on the wall with Sandra Bullock or whoever. And I’d be like “Yeah. That’s going to be me one day.” (furrows brow and shakes head) I don’t know. I don’t know where that came from, honestly. Because that sounds like a complete nightmare to me now. So, then as I grew up, I wanted to—I’ve had so many different careers before I landed on being an archivist. But they were always in the vein of like being of service to people. So, I wanted to be—I wanted to work in hospitality for a long time, in hotels, which I did for quite a long time. And then social work. And then I wanted to teach. So, they were all professions where you have to give in some way to people. And I think being a librarian and an archivist is not any different from that. So–and I think there’s so many ways in which I’m like my mom, fortunately and unfortunately. But that’s one of them. She’s always kind of dedicated herself to helping people. So, what would my childhood self think of what I do now? I don’t know! You know, I never really thought of—I mean, there was a brief period of time where I thought about, you know, being married and what my kids’ names would be. But that didn’t really last long, I think, partially because my parents’ marriage was so miserable. I just—That kind of—That dream just kind of fizzled out. I’m not opposed to any of that now but, you know, I’m forty and I’m single and have no kids which I’m very, definitely okay with, no joke. But it’s not a priority at this point. So, yeah, I think—I don’t know. I didn’t really think about myself in like career terms when I was a kid. But I did love the library. And I did go—My dad took me to the library all the time. And if he couldn’t take me, then one of my uncles would take me. So, I always had very positive associations with the library. Never thought of it as a career or anything when I was a kid. So, I guess, I don’t know. I guess now that I think about it, maybe I would have thought my adult self is pretty cool for being a librarian, I hope. But yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if that answers the question, but— 00:45:28.000 --> 00:46:08.000 No, it does. I guess I was—Like when you were mentioning the different careers that you’ve been in, that made me wonder about like—and you mentioned that your mom is also a very giving person who wants to be of help in service to others. I wanted to ask more about that part of you, and like when you first—Or like is there a moment when you first started to think “Oh. This is—I really like doing this and like helping other people.” And like how that—And like how you came to know that part of yourself? 00:46:08.000 --> 00:47:39.000 Hhmmm. That’s a good question. I don’t think there was a specific moment, honestly. I think part of it might stem from being a people pleaser as a kid which might have been a, I don’t know, like a self-preservation mechanism because, you know, my parents were very controlling and demanding. So, I think that may be part of it. So, being a people pleaser and then going into a service profession where you have to help people and meet their needs, like there might be some kind of psychological connection there. But I hope that’s not the only reason that I do what I do. So, yeah. I don’t think there was a specific moment. I just kind of—It’s just always felt right to me to give in some way. And as an adult, especially in the last few years, I’ve learned how to, you know, create boundaries and, you know, pay attention to my own needs and not the needs of the people around me so much. So, that’s helped me become a healthy adult. But yeah. This is just always what’s felt natural to me after I decided I wasn’t going to be a movie star. (both laugh) 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:45.000 I wonder what that would have been like if you pursued that. (laughs) 00:47:45.000 --> 00:48:19.000 Yeah. I don’t know, man. I don’t think I would have been successful. I definitely would have been a brat. Like, you know, being one of those people who, you know, everyone says “Yes” to you. Like, I don’t know. I’m thinking of ultra famous people where people are at your beck and call. I don’t think I would have turned out to be a very nice person if I had people like, you know, fawning all around me and trying to meet my every need. So, maybe it’s a good thing that didn’t happen. 00:48:19.000 --> 00:49:00.000 To go in the same vein of like your path, and I don’t mean just like career path either, but I was wondering as you were growing up and going through school and your work and everything and just going through life, if you had any influential mentors or teachers, and like influential people in that way like outside of your family who really made a difference in your life? And like how you saw yourself or how you saw yourself as a person, I guess. I feel like sometimes there are people like that. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:51:50.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. I know it’s very cliché, but my mom is a very influential figure, as she would be for any person. But she’s, specifically, she’s just so tough and super strong-willed and some would say stubborn, which is not a positive trait. But I just really appreciate that about her. And so, I can see myself in her in that like if I decide to do something, like, it’s happening. I’m making it happen regardless of any perceived obstacles. Like I’ve never really said “Oh, what if it doesn’t work out.” Like I don’t really even think about that. And I think that comes from her. And her mother, from what I understand, was very much the same. Like they didn’t have a great relationship growing up. But my grandmother was very entrepreneurial too, and she had all these kids to take care of. But she was just—you know, she hustled. And she like opened businesses and had all these different like streams of income in order to bring in money to feed her kids. So, I just really appreciate and respect that from my mom’s side. In terms of other mentors, you know, I—Yeah, I had some really good teachers growing up, in grade school, who were always interested in what I had to say and what my thoughts were. And I got attention from them in ways that I didn’t at home, you know. Like they actually validated my feelings and my thoughts and my work, so really good teachers. You know, I think every person in my life that’s had some kind of mentorship role has been someone who validates me. And I think I say that because my family just didn’t. You know, we don’t do that. They were never like “Oh, you do such a great job,” or “I’m proud of you,” or “I care about you,” or “You’re great!” Like I never got that at home, ever! So, even like up ‘til today, like I have people at work that I look up to. And it’s just the same thing. Like they’ll tell me that I’m doing a great job, or they really liked this aspect of this project. Or just—they’ll have all these affirming words. And that’s something that I really need, unfortunately. So, yeah, in terms of mentors, like there’s lots of people that come to mind. But it’s always—they are always people who provide that for me. 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.000 Yeah. 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Yeah. 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:33.000 You also talked about your grandparents raising you when you were growing up. So, I was wondering about like their influence in your life. Like what kind of time did they spend with you? Or were they just like in the same room at the same time? Or in the same building? (laughs) And like—And then I wanted to ask about mealtimes and like who did the cooking and stuff like that. But you can start with I want to know more about growing up in a multi-generational home with your grandparents. 00:52:33.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Sure. Yeah. So, my grandparents that I grew up with were my dad’s parents. And they were really loving and caring in the way I feel like only grandparents are. So, I definitely didn’t get the same criticism from them that I did from my parents. I didn’t really get a lot of praise either. But, you know, at least I wasn’t criticized. So, yeah, my grandparents didn’t really share a lot of their stories with me either. Definitely not the kind of grandparents who were like “Oh, let me tell you about when I was a kid.” Like there wasn’t any of that. They passed away in 2019, just one month apart from each other. And it was really wild because they—my grandfather was—he had, I don’t think it was Alzheimer's. I think it was just short-term memory loss, not just, but not to the extent where he was actually like diagnosed as dementia or Alzheimer’s. So, and after a while, he just couldn’t really take care of himself. And my dad was not in a situation where he could have my grandfather move in. And my uncle—he just—none of my dad, or then neither of his brothers could take care of him. So, he went to a nursing home. But he was visited often. They did not ignore him. I just wanted to state that for the record. (Vo chuckles) So, he was in this home for like a year, I want to say. I was living in Chicago at the time. So, that’s kind of fuzzy. But my grandma was okay. And she was pretty sharp up until like maybe the week before she passed. And so, anyway, I say all this because he—They were not living together and my family didn’t tell my grandmother that my grandfather had passed. But somehow, a month after he passed, she did too. And they weren’t together. But I guess somehow you just know. And I think that’s really beautiful. So, in terms of how they raised me, sorry, I keep going back and forth. (laughs) 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:04.000 No. That’s okay. 00:55:04.000 --> 00:58:00.000 Yeah, they were great. When I got my master’s degree, my grandpa was really happy about that. So, he told me I was number one. That was it. He’s like “You, number one.” He said it in English. But, yeah, they didn’t say much else, but I could tell he was really proud of me. So, yeah, my parents, when I was a kid, my parents worked a lot. And so, my grandma was always there taking care of us or my grandpa. And, you know, they didn’t really play a lot with us or interact a lot with us. But they were just always there, you know. My brother and I would play with each other, or we might have a friend over or play video games. He would play video games, and I would be reading a book or whatever. So, not a ton of interaction, but they were definitely around which I appreciate now. And, yeah, my grandma, a couple years before—(coughs) sorry, I’m not used to talking so much. A couple of years before they started to get ill, my grandma told my brother a story about how she—my grandfather was, I guess, in Thailand with the military doing something. And he was like in a prison there, for some reason. I still don’t know. So, my grandma had to like find passage to Thailand which isn’t technically that far. But you can’t just like stroll on over, you know. So, oh my gosh. I’d have to ask my brother what the details of the story are. And I think I’ll do that if I interview him. But basically, she just told the story about how it took like a whole week for her to get to my grandpa. And all she wanted to do was like bring him supplies, like socks and medicine and that kind of thing. But she had to like talk to all these different people and like pay people to like let her cross and like bribe them and that kind of thing. And my grandmother was actually pretty well off in Vietnam. Like she had some money. And then my grandfather was pretty high ranking. So, they were not—they were relatively privileged, unlike my mom’s family. But even with all that privilege, it was still quite an obstacle to get—to find him and get him these supplies. So, and the reason I bring it up was because that’s the one memory that I have of her telling a story. And it was because—And it was just, you know, her wanting to get to her husband so she could care for him in some way. So, that really stands out, that love that they had for each other. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:03.000 Yeah. That’s really sweet. 00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.000 Yeah. It is. 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:44.000 So, the conversations that you did have, were they mostly in Vietnamese? And like what kind of conversation—I mean, it sounded like, because she was able to talk about her story with you, that you were able to talk with one another. But I was wondering about like if there were any language barriers. Or—Because you also talked about not feeling comfortable speaking Vietnamese with them. So, what was that like as a component of your relationship with them? 00:58:44.000 --> 01:01:01.000 So, my brother is actually really good about trying to speak Vietnamese. Like his Vietnamese also isn’t great. But he tries really hard, unlike me. So, when I say that she told the story, she was really telling him the story. And she only told him a story because he asked in Vietnamese. So, yeah, I could understand most of the story which was told only in Vietnamese. And my comprehension is actually pretty decent. But I have never really been able to converse with my grandparents other than, you know, “How are you?” “I’m hungry,” you know, like the things that you need to be able to communicate. Yeah, my dad was always around—or not always around. But, as an adult, when I visited my grandparents, my dad was always around. Like he would take us to visit them. And he speaks both English and Vietnamese. So, he always just kind of translated for me. So, yeah, I can’t really—I was never really able to communicate with my grandparents much at all. But they were able to communicate with me. So, I guess I’m the lucky one. But yeah, my brother—Yeah, everything that I know is because my brother is willing to put forth that effort. He doesn’t have that trauma the way I do. So—I can speak–or I actually read and write to a certain degree, like I don’t know, maybe to a third-grade level or something. But I can. And my brother doesn’t have that ability, ironically. So, yeah. Everything my grandparents said to us was in Vietnamese. They could speak, you know, okay-ish English. But they didn’t really. They were able to, you know, get around, go to the grocery store, like American grocery stores and talk to American people in English, to a certain extent. So, they were okay. But in the family, they only spoke Vietnamese. So, yeah, not a lot of communication with my grandparents. 01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:32.000 Yeah. What were they like? Or I’m guessing—what was their community like? Do you remember like growing up and them seeing other people that were their friends or family? And like how often did they get out of the house and like those kind of interpersonal things? And like did they ever take you places to meet those people and go to events and things? 01:01:32.000 --> 01:03:40.000 Yeah. So, my grandparents—everyone on my dad’s side, actually including my dad, they’re all very social people. My mom’s side is more introverted and quiet. But my dad’s side is pretty, pretty social and extroverted. So, my grandparents definitely had their own community of Vietnamese people. They had their friends. All the people in their lives, in terms of like, I don’t know, service people, like their doctors, dentists, etc. were all Vietnamese. And they lived in San Diego on—they lived in City Heights, which is Little Saigon in San Diego, basically. Just like Uptown in Chicago, City Heights is traditionally, you know, a landing pad for immigrant people. But it’s mostly Vietnamese people now. And there’s also Somalians, and Ethiopians, and a lot of Latino folks. So, it’s really a melting pot for, you know, all these different like crosswalks and intersections of life. But a lot of immigrant people and a lot of Vietnamese people. So, they lived in that area, and they definitely had a community. Like I didn’t really like socialize like, you know, like (laughs) go to the bars with them or anything. And I know you weren’t asking that. (Vo laughs) But there were always Vietnamese people around and they had their friends. And they had siblings who were in San Diego. So, yeah. They were always very connected. And so, I felt connected when they were alive. And I still feel connected to Vietnamese people, although I don’t know how I’ll—if that will still be true after my gran—after my parents pass away. And I know you didn’t ask that. But that’s where my mind went, so yeah. They were always connected with the Vietnamese Vietnamese community. And they were older when they came here. So, they definitely held on to that, to their culture and their heritage really well. 01:03:40.000 --> 01:04:04.000 Yeah. I’m always so like impressed or like happy for older folks who are able to like stay engaged in that way, with like people around them and like their wider community. Because I feel like that’s really healthy and like—And so, I can see why they lived so long. 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:09.000 Yeah. That’s a good point actually. I never thought about that. Yeah. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:18.000 Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about your favorite dish, since I really liked it when you asked me that question. (chuckles) 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:19.000 Okay. 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:53.000 What’s your favorite meal to eat? What’s your favorite Vietnamese dish? What’s your favorite snack? And then like what’s the thing that you’re able to cook yourself that you like feel—Like for me, at least, whenever I have guests or visitors over, I’m like “Oh. I’m going to make bò kho (bo kho) for them to eat. Because I make it pretty well. So, like what’s that for you? What’s your favorite thing to eat? 01:04:53.000 --> 01:06:03.000 My favorite thing to eat, Vietnamese-wise, is—Well, probably anything-wise, is Vietnamese curry. My mom makes it the best, of course. And so, I’m vegetarian. So, she makes it for me with just like, you know, the typical things like tofu, and taro, and carrots. And, I don’t know, whatever she puts in it, it’s always good. I don’t even know. And I feel like Vietnamese curry is so hard to find that whenever I go to a Vietnamese restaurant and I see curry on the menu, like that’s what I’m getting. Period. If it’s vegetarian, then that’s my default order. And I feel like it’s always good. It’s like pizza, like you can’t really go wrong. Even if it’s bad, it’s still good. So, I don’t really cook Vietnamese food, unless you count—which this shouldn’t count—the noodles in the packet. It’s not ramen. I don’t even know what the name is. But— 01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:04.000 Is it IndoMie? 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:57.000 It’s not IndoMie. It’s a Vietnamese, or it’s in Vietnamese. And it’s been around forever. And even when I wasn’t vegetarian, I would get—My dad liked the onion flavor. And he would always eat that. So, sometimes I make that at home for like just a comfort food meal. There’s like a little packet of seasoning. And then there’s the oil packet. And then my dad would always add things like sliced onions, and like lettuce leaves, and just things to like bulk it up. So, that’s one of my favorite things to make at home. But I would never give that to a guest. (both laugh) It would be so embarrassing. I think it’s called Kung Fu. (looks to her right and seems to be looking something up on the computer) Kung Fu noodles. Oh, is it okay to Google it during the—? Yeah. It’s fine. (Vo laughs) It’s our project. Kung Fu noodles. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:03.000 Yeah. I want to know what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever had it. 01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:16.000 Yes. This is it. Onion flavor. I’ll share my screen. I hope it’s okay. Onion…This, oh my god. This is it. Okay. Um, I’m going to share real quick. 01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:21.000 Okay. 01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:23.000 (Shares screen and the image is of a package of noodles called “Kung-Fu” on the Amazon website) Can you see that? 01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.000 It’s loading. Wow! I’ve never seen it! 01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:46.000 Oh, really? Okay. Well, we’ll—if we see each other at SAA next summer, I’ll bring you a packet. It’s really delicious, although that might just be my childhood nostalgia. (Screen sharing stops) Saying that, it probably isn’t even that great. But it’s the onion flavor. And I guess it’s not Vietnamese. It says “Mì Hành” (Mi Hanh) something. 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000 Yeah, there’s Vietnamese on it. 01:07:48.000 --> 01:08:03.000 On it, so yeah. That’s kind of Vietnamese. So, yeah, that’s what I make at home more often than I care to admit. But I don’t really cook Vietnamese food. And I feel like it’s so labor intensive. I mean— 01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:42.000 I know. Yeah. I get that. Especially like the more popular or well-known dishes, like even making bánh xèo (banh xeo) is like, do I want to go through frying each pancake or whatever? HO: Yeah. It takes forever. My mom will make banh xeo for us kind of often. But she—and when I say “us,” I mean me and her. But like she can’t sit and relax and enjoy it with me. Like she’s just standing there the whole time and cooking and then she’ll like sneak in bites. So, that kind of sucks. 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:49.000 I also wanted to ask, when you eat curry, do you eat it with rice or with bread? Because sometimes—or with noodles? Like rice noodles. 01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:50.000 I like it with noodles. 01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:51.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:08:51.000 --> 01:09:02.000 Yeah. That’s my favorite. I will eat it with French bread if the bread is toasted. Rice is good too. I mean rice goes with everything. So, yeah, out of the three, I would pick noodles. But they’re all winners. 01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:11.000 Okay. I was wondering because I know I’ve had all three. But I feel like everyone would have their preference. (laughs) 01:09:11.000 --> 01:10:23.000 Yeah. Definitely. Noodles are my preference, period, in life. So— And then food-wise. Okay. (holds head in her hands) I have to say, in Chicago, there was this restaurant called Phở Xe Lửa (Pho Xe Lua), and some people call it “PXL” for short. And they had—The lady that ran it, or who owned it, trained with Vietnamese monks. So, there was a really extensive vegetarian menu. And I loved that place for that reason. Everything was so good. And the thing that I would get the most there was a—(whispers to herself, scratching her head) oh god—it was not bánh ướt (banh uot), but something just like it. So, like I guess white people now call them rice rolls. But just the flat rice layers that are—Oh, there’s a name for it. What is it? And they’re just kind of rolled up and they’re just—you just put the nước mắm (nuoc mam) on them, and they get really soggy, and you eat them with chả lụa (cha lua) and all the veggies. I’m kicking myself because I can’t remember the name. 01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:25.000 Is it—It’s—is it bánh cuốn (banh cuon)? 01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:26.000 Yes! 01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.000 Oh, okay. 01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:29.000 Yes. Banh cuon. Yes. That’s it. 01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:31.000 Yeah. I love banh cuon. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:38.000 Yeah. (Vo laughs) It’s always—Yeah. I like wet foods. So that one always hits the spot. 01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:47.000 Yeah. I always think of it as like a brunch meal too. I don’t know if that’s just how–when we would eat it, like for brunch on the weekend. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:49.000 Oh! Interesting. Okay. 01:10:49.000 --> 01:11:11.000 Yeah. Banh cuon. Yeah. Well, I guess, do you have any other thoughts about food? (both laugh) Or like mealtimes or cooking or like any things that your family did together with food? 01:11:11.000 --> 01:13:26.000 Um, I think the thing that stands out to me most in terms of family mealtime is that for a long time my mom owned a little chain of stores at the mall. So, she sold like formal wear for children for like weddings, or quinceañeras, or just, you know, little tuxedos and dresses for little kids. So, that kept her very busy, and my dad, it kept him very busy too. And so, for a long time we would just go to the grocery store once a week and buy like frozen meals to pop in the microwave to eat at home because they were too busy to cook. My mom was too busy to cook. So, yeah, my mom talked about that not long ago and like expressed how much she regretted that she had to put us through that, which was nice of her to acknowledge. And I don’t think it was the worst thing. Like I get it. She was busy. So, but yeah, that stands out to me a lot. So, I think that’s it. Yeah, my grandma cooked, but not often. And she would make soup a lot. Like she would make phở (pho)and other soupy, noodley things. And what I remember about her is two things. She would always, whether it was at home or a restaurant, she would get like the fresh chili peppers, (indicates something about two inches long with her right thumb and forefinger) the red ones—like I think they were Thai chilis—and she would slice them up into little slices. They were fresh and she would slice them up and add them to her soup. She liked hot food, like spicy food. So, she—if we were at home, she had those ready. And then if we were at a restaurant, she would request them. And then—And she would always either have scissors or—No! She always had scissors at home, and if we were going out to a restaurant, she would keep scissors in her purse so that she could cut the noodles in the restaurant which I always thought really embarrassing. But now, as an adult, I’m like yeah. You’ve got to take care of your own needs. So, that’s awesome. (both laugh) 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:53.000 I think people also don’t get like scissors are actually a very important part of eating in that way. Like I’ve done—I’ve cut things like in the kitchen or while I’m eating, with scissors. And other people who aren’t like Vietnamese or Asian even like are like confused, or aren’t used to it, I guess. Yeah. 01:13:53.000 --> 01:14:05.000 Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I’ve never actually done that myself. I don’t have kitchen scissors. But I definitely appreciate how handy they are. So,— 01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:58.000 I like that story about your grandma. Thank you. (both laugh) Can I ask another—one more question—about like are there foods?—because, for me, I’ve experienced this where they’re American foods that kids love but like, for me, it was very foreign. And so, it was like an experience that I sought out. I was like “I want to try this American food.” Yeah, is—Do you have experiences like that? Like growing up with eating a certain type of food but then like your peers experience like different types of food. And then you don’t know, like you aren’t able to connect to that. Or like then you’re like “I want to try that.” Or—Does that question make sense? 01:14:58.000 --> 01:17:17.000 Yes. It makes sense. I’m trying to think of an answer. That’s a good question. I, you know, I think–I don’t think I have a lot of that because my parents worked so much and we always had that frozen food stuff. So, I, you know, ate like lasagna or Marie Callendar’s or those things. And then sometimes like McDonalds and that kind of stuff too. The only answer I can think of is when my dad—was it my dad? I can’t—I think it was actually my best friend in high school. Her name was Lisa. She was white. And she—we got these passes to go off campus for lunch. So, it felt like, you know, the big time, right? Like you were allowed to go off campus for lunch as long as you come back. So, I think on one of our first times doing that, we went to Taco Bell. And I had never been to Taco Bell before. I don’t remember what we got but I remember loving it and wanting to go there as much as I could after that. Like I had never given it a second thought. But then it’s like the world opened up before me. So, yeah, so then I took my dad and my brother there, and they loved it too! (both laugh) Um, that’s all I can think of. Yeah. I feel like we went out to eat a lot, my family and I did, because my parents were just so busy. So, we didn’t really have another choice. And then my grandma, I guess she could have cooked. But she didn’t really cook much, and I don’t know why. I’m sure she would have, but I don’t know why she didn’t cook that much because you think of a grandmother like always cooking, right? But I don’t really have memories of her cooking for us. She also didn’t really get along with my mom. So, that might have had something to do with it (shrugs) looking back. Maybe my mom didn’t want her to or something. But yeah, food-wise, I feel like we were—yeah, my parents always preferred Vietnamese food first. But we were—I feel like we were pretty adventurous compared to other immigrant families just because we didn’t really have a choice. So, yeah. 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:38.000 Yeah. That makes sense. Because I was thinking of like cheese kind of based things, because a lot of people in my family don’t eat cheese, because it’s like not really part of Vietnamese cuisine. So, like if there’s cheese, they won’t eat it. Um, my dad— 01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:40.000 Even Laughing Cow? 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:54.000 —yeah. My dad loves cheese, though. So, I was wondering if there’s stuff like that that influenced your experiences of like things that are American that you didn’t eat ‘til later. 01:17:54.000 --> 01:18:13.000 My dad—I don’t think this counts—but my dad really liked liverwurst, like paté. But it was always like the—what brand was it? It was like an American brand. It wasn’t Asian or Vietnamese at all. And he would eat that a lot. And he liked Spam a lot too. 01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000 Oh, yes. (laughs) 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:40.000 Of course. And he would just take whatever ingredients and like put them all in a baguette. And the Laughing Cow, of course. Yeah. I don’t know. Nothing stands out other than those things. So, after I found out what liverwurst is, I stopped eating it. (Vo laughs) Even before I was vegetarian. I was like “Nope. Not eating that anymore.” It was really good though. (chuckles) 01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:45.000 I know. I remember—I know this is your interview, but— 01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:47.000 That’s okay, no. (shakes head) 01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:55.000 When I was a kid, we loved eating paté on like toast. And my brother called it quẹt quẹt (quet quet) because you kind of like smear it. (motions smearing with her right hand) 01:18:55.000 --> 01:18:58.000 Oh. (laughs) 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:12.000 And then like we had friends over, and we were like “You want a snack?” And then we—and my mom told them what it was, and they were like “Oh my god! Don’t want it.” But yeah. 01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:14.000 Was that embarrassing? 01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:35.000 I don’t know. I was just like—I guess it was a little embarrassing, but since I still think about it (both laugh) from time to time. But yeah, well was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we wrap up? 01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:40.000 Mmm, no, nothing comes to mind. This was a good interview. Thank you. 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:44.000 Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. 01:19:44.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Of course. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.
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Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022.
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Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States.
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SC027-109
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2022-11-16
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video
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Jennifer Ho
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Amy Vo
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity
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Chicago (Ill.); San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
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Jennifer Ho
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Amy Vo
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml
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Vietnamese American identity
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6.0 Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022. SC027-108 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity community immigration Vietnam Amy Vo Jennifer Ho moving image VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2400e2e5d03836344481cb1337ea99f1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Amy Vo, November 10, 2022, by Jennifer Ho. 0 37 Migration, childhood and community Amy talks about her childhood spent in the U.S. and overseas, and the Vietnamese communities in these regions. She also shares her parents’ migration stories. Tulsa ; Saint Francis Hospital ; Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City ; Vinh Long ; Hanoi ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese community ; Brunei ; refugee camps ; political division ; communism ; Krispy Kreme ; New York ; Chino Hills ; La Brea ; petroleum engineering ; Unocal ; Chevron ; San Jose ; Louisiana ; Dallas ; Alabama ; conservative community ; Republican ; Singapore ; Islam ; Islam/Muslim ; Chinese Buddhist ; Bangkok, Thailand ; employee resource groups ; Princetonians ; LGBTQIA ; New Jersey ; Philadelphia ; Los Angeles ; Japanese ; Chinese 0 2139 Vietnamese identity Amy reflects on her Vietnamese identity and how it was influenced by her time overseas as well as her life at home. Japanese, Taiwanese, Indian, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, British 0 2508 Mom's cooking Amy shares her childhood memories of her mother’s cooking and the ways in which her mom has been expanding her culinary skillset. She talks about how her mom teaches people to cook, and her favorite thing her mom makes. accountant ; NHK ; meals ; Korean food ; Japanese food ; Asian food ; Italian food ; cha gio ; bun rieu ; curry 0 3120 Grandparents and language Amy talks about her grandparents on both sides, and her relationships with them. She also addresses language and how it limits her ability to interact with Vietnamese people. ba ngoai ; ba noi ; Tulsa ; Dallas ; Japanese occupation ; Vietnamese language ; KFC ; language fluency ; language loss 0 4059 What does it mean to be a Vietnamese person? In this section, Amy reflects on how her parents indirectly taught her about Vietnamese heritage, including traditions and communication styles. Religion ; tradition ; communication 0 Oral history Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people.
 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:29.000 This is Jennifer Ho interviewing Amy Vo for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 10, 2022, 10:36 a.m. Pacific Time and we are meeting via Zoom. Thanks for being here with me today, Amy. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Thanks, Jenn. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 Yeah, all right. So, let’s just get into it. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:45.000 I was born (redacted), 1988, in Tulsa, Oklahoma in Saint Francis Hospital. (chuckles) 00:00:45.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Okay. All right. Cool! And tell me about your parents. Where did they come from? And tell me about their migration story. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:37.000 Um, I guess generally I broadly know that my parents both grew up in Sài Gòn (Saigon). So, and my dad also spent some time in the country outside of Saigon in Vĩnh Long (Vinh Long). And my mom’s family originally came from the north, like a couple of hours outside of Hà Nội (Hanoi). And they had to move down. I only learned this recently, actually, like a few months ago, that my mom’s family moved down, I think in the ‘50s or ‘60s. And like if they hadn’t, then her father would have been killed, which is kind of crazy to learn. And I feel like that happens a lot in our family where we learn these like really fundamental or like huge details. I wouldn’t even call them details. They’re like really big events in like our family history that aren’t even talked about or mentioned until, you know, I’m 34, so like 34 years later. Yeah. But–but then they spent most of their like childhoods and, I guess, young adulthoods in Saigon. My mom left maybe when she was in her early twenties, I think, or maybe when she was twenty or late teens. 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.000 She left Việt Nam (Vietnam) to come to the U.S.? 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:53.000 Yeah. She left like the day that Saigon fell in ’75. And my dad left later, in ’78 or ’79. 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.000 Okay. Did they already know each other in Vietnam? 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:19.000 No! They happened to meet each other in Tulsa, because they both started going to college at the University of Tulsa. And I think, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s my–my aunt, one of my mom’s younger sisters, who knew my dad somehow. And that’s how they met, through her. 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Okay. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:48.000 Yeah. Yeah. I mean the–I–I think the Vietnamese community was pretty small in–in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or like growing actually because I heard that there are a lot of Vietnamese people who are still there now. But I imagine it’s like a smaller community on campus which is like where they mostly met people. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:59.000 Okay. When they came to the U.S., did they land directly in Tulsa or were there like a few stops along the way? Did they stay in a camp somewhere? 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:50.000 (nods) Yeah. I’m not a hundred percent sure about my mom. I know she did stay in a camp somewhere, but I don’t remember where it was. And my dad had quite a journey between leaving Vietnam and coming to Tulsa. And he started writing about it recently. And like what I knew before was that he went to Brunei. But I don’t think that’s where his–the camp was that he stayed at. But, um, I’m not sure. And I know that before they came to Tulsa, at least for my dad, his older sister was already in Arkansas. So, yeah. I’m not sure about like the timeline at all. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:10.000 Okay. Okay. That’s very interesting. If we could back track for a moment, and–and if you want to share, do you know why your mom’s family had to move around? You said your grandfather might have been killed. (Vo nods) Do you know anything about that, that you would want to share? 00:05:10.000 --> 00:06:13.000 Um, from what I understand, it had to do with politics because the north was more communist and I think—I know that when they went to the south, like my uncles joined the military in south Vietnam and then maybe some other family members were working with the government, or in the government, because that was part of why they–my mom was able to leave by, I think, helicopter like the day that Saigon fell. So, I think that was part of it. Yeah. And–and then my understanding of history is fuzzy too, because I know like ‘50s and ‘60s there are already like things happening in the country leading up to the–the war and America joining in that, in conflict with the— I don’t know. 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:20.000 Okay. Okay. Has your mom said anything about the journey? 00:06:20.000 --> 00:09:44.000 She is not a storyteller the way that my dad is. My dad likes telling stories and when we were young like, you know, elementary school age before middle school, he would tell us stories about growing up and his childhood. And so, I always felt like I knew more about my dad. And then my mom kind of thinks— It’s interesting, because maybe the past few years, I started calling my mom almost every morning on my way to work or on my way home from work to talk to her. And then she would tell me stories like that, which is why I think she told me about like why her family left the north. Because she will start like reminiscing. But before that if we were talking and I–my brother and I would ask a question, she’s like “I don’t really remember a lot” or something or say something like that which is why I thought she didn’t have a lot of stories. But she obviously does. Like when she gets into the—when something sparks her memory, she’ll think and talk about it at length. But when you ask her like a more general question, maybe, she’ll have more trouble just thinking of a memory. But then lately she’ll–she’ll talk more about the day that she left and she’ll— Two of the things she always mentions about leaving Vietnam is how it’s related to food. Like her cousin had really severe asthma. And then she’ll say, “It was miraculous. Like the soldiers gave us a can of tuna and he ate it. And then his asthma was gone!” And–or something like that. And then also she said that when they first came to America, they were handing out donuts and she didn’t know—or they were handing out these baked goods, which were donuts. But she didn’t know what they were. And then she asked like “What are these?” Because they were amazing. And she learned about donuts and I was like “That makes so much sense.” She only told us that memory in the past few years. So, it makes so much sense now to me why she loves donuts so much. Like she’s so–she’s so like passionate about Krispy Kreme donuts and like she’ll buy a dozen or half dozen donuts and she’s the type of person who’ll only eat like this much of the donut (indicates a small pinch with her right hand) and she’ll cut a little slice (indicates cutting slices with her hand) off of a donut and eat it throughout the day. (both laugh) But, yeah, she does have like stories like that. But I’ve only started to learn more about those stories that she has because of the—I don’t know—just the way she is about sharing and memory, I think. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:51.000 So, why do you think she’s recently started opening up about her background and her–her life? 00:09:51.000 --> 00:11:15.000 I think part of it is like for a while it would take me like forty minutes to drive home from work when I was commuting to New York, like the forty minute, thirty minutes to get home from the train station. And then now I have like about forty minutes of driving and walking to work and that’s a lot of time. And–and she will sometimes just talk. And also, I think being older now we’re at a different place in our relationship, as well. I had to—Someone asked me like what my relationship was like with my mother growing up and I was—I thought that was an interesting question. Because it’s like she was my mom, but we didn’t share things with each other like thoughts and feelings. (laughs). But I don’t know how it’s different now, like how–how and why that changes as you get older. I’m still thinking about that. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. And what about your dad? You said he’s kind of a storyteller. Has he said anything about his journey? 00:11:28.000 --> 00:14:04.000 He says a lot of stuff. (laughs) And I think, you know, like with a lot of things you kind of start shaping the narrative as–as you keep telling it over and over. So, even when we were young, he told us about going to Brunei and he left on a boat with a bunch of other people and how he–he had to—like, they were running out of water and food. And he jumped off the boat with two other people to swim to shore to kind of–to get help or to like see if they could land there or anchor there. And then like now that I’m saying it, like I was maybe nine or so. So, my brother would have been like six, seven. But he would tell us about how those two other people who jumped in with him probably were eaten by sharks because they were never found again, after they jumped off the ship to swim to shore and also that when he got to shore, he got really sick and was put in a jail. And like–like those were the details he told us as children. But then–then when he started writing his memoir, there were so many more details to it like that I never thought of but are, I guess, are obvious. Like how far the swim was from the boat to shore. Like he said it took him almost all day, or like all afternoon and other details like that. So, I think—So, I feel like he’s a storyteller. He likes writing and he likes writing poetry. And he’s shared it with us, and he feels comfortable sharing it—like what he’s written—with other people too. (gray cat jumps on her lap) So, I think that’s part of his personality, which is interesting. Because it’s interesting to think about what people choose to share with you or–and others. Yeah. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:10.000 Are you and your siblings pretty receptive to what he shares? 00:14:10.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Yeah. We get really—We’re really supportive of him sharing, because like it’s part of our family history and our father’s–our dad’s story. My dad ge–or my brother, he gets very into it and he’ll ask a ton of questions. And I always think his questions are obnoxious but (laughs) it’s just like it’s because he’s like curious and he wants to connect to the person sharing in that way, which I guess I’ve just realized now, saying that out loud (laughs). But, yeah. I wish that he would—my dad—would keep writing his memoir and kind of like keep continue sharing it with us. But he also works a lot. So, sometimes his priority—or not sometimes—all the time his priority is working. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Yeah. Sure. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so let’s talk more about you. You were born in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Were you —Tell me about your siblings. How many of you are there? What order you were born in? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:39.000 I’m the oldest and then I have a younger brother. He is three years younger than me. So, after Tulsa, we moved to California. I always forget which city, but I think it’s Chino Hills or La Brea in southern California, when I was two, I guess, and then my brother came along. And we were in California for a couple more years. We moved when I was six, so when he was three. But it was nice being a big sister, I guess, (chuckles) sometimes. Yeah. 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:46.000 Why did you move from Tulsa to California? 00:16:46.000 --> 00:17:29.000 My dad, when I was still like one or two, he was study–or he was in a doctoral program studying petroleum engineering. And so he got a job after he graduated, I think. And so, he worked for Unocal at the time before—I mean, years later they merged or Chevron bought them–bought them or whatever that—however that goes. But that was the reason why we moved a lot was because of his job. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.000 Okay. Is he still in that line of work today? 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:58.000 Yes. He is. He is almost, well, he should be retiring soon. But he says that every year, that he’s retiring soon. But he’s been with the same company for–since then, since–since Oklahoma or California, I guess. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.000 Oh, wow! 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000 Since California. 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:41.000 Okay, that's great. Okay. So, where did you—So, I guess two questions. And you can answer them together if you want to. But after—How long did you live in California? And then also I’m curious about your–your childhood in these different places, if there was a Vietnamese community. You mentioned briefly that there was a Vietnamese community in Tulsa. But also, I wanted to hear about in California and then the other places you grew up and what your relationship–or your family’s relationship to the community was like. 00:18:41.000 --> 00:35:26.000 Yeah. I think it was in California we lived further away—I think a big part of community, at least in our family, is being close to family. Since our extended family is so large. So, in California, I remember that my grandmothers, both of them were alive while we were growing up but we never met our grandfathers. Or there was one grandfather we did meet, but—or I met—but I was too young to remember. Like family would have to visit us in California because of where we lived. I think most people lived up in San Jose or—Yeah. I think it’s mostly San Jose. We have one family member in Chino Hills and there’s like a complicated history with that, too. For me, community is really linked to family because those are the main links that we had with like the Vietnamese community rather than friends even. Even now I think my parents like a lot of their social lives revolve around family rather than like friends or the wider community. But family can be really huge since it’s like they can keep like they can keep straight in their heads all of their cousins and their cousin’s cousins and stuff like that. So, it’s always–it always feels much bigger than it sounds, I guess. And then like in California we didn’t live near family. They live in San Jose and I think that was a few hours away. But they did visit sometimes. And a lot of the time family who were still in Tulsa would visit—or not a lot of the time, but like sometimes they would visit, especially when my brother was born. My grandmothers came to visit and help out with the baby and to watch me. And–and so we were in California for only about three and a half or four years and we moved to Louisiana which feels really far away from much community. But apparently there was a Vietnamese community in the area. Because at my school—the elementary school that I went to—there was another Vo family. And they had a lot of kids and my mom always talks about how she would meet someone at school and they’d be like “Are all those kids yours?” because they also had the same last name. But like I never—They weren’t in my class. I think they were younger or older. And–and then I did have friends, but there’s like one or two friends who I played with on the playground. And I went to someone’s house like once or twice. But I feel like growing up we were always very, I don’t want to say insular, but we were always like very centered in our family, our immediate family and our extended family. I had cousins who were around my age, like the same age as me or like between one and three or–one and three years younger or so. And they would visit a lot too. So, we had a few family vacations where they’d drive from Dallas because by that time, when I was like six, people started moving down from Tulsa to Dallas in like the suburbs around Dallas. And so like the–the cousins on my mom’s side of the family were closer in age to me. The oldest cousin was maybe five years older than me. Whereas on my dad’s side, he was the youngest of like nine or ten kids. So, the oldest cousin on that side was like only eight or ten years younger than my dad, (chuckles) so a lot older than me. So, we were always—my brother and I were always closer with my maternal cousins. And I was trying to say that we sometimes went on summer vacation like–like long road trips to Alabama to the beach. And we did that a couple times. So, I think then when we moved overseas it was a lot harder to have community like in the way that we did with our families. We would see our relatives every summer and like spend two or almost three months with them. So, they were still a big part of our lives but for the rest of the year, it’s like very different. So, we first moved to Indonesia when I was nine and since my dad worked and works for a petroleum engineering–or like in the petroleum industry, a lot of people are very conservative and white and Republican and Christian. So, the first place we moved to was also really small and the majority of the expat community was that type of person—so, like everyone in my class and the classes were very small. There was like one year where the eighth-grade class was only three students. And then after eighth grade, you had either move or send your kids to boarding school in Singapore. And that was why we moved when I was in eighth grade, because my parents didn’t want me to go to boarding school and be on my own, which I am grateful for. But that was a very difficult move. But I feel like there was no community in–in Indonesia. I did have friends that I saw, and I went to their houses. But I think it’s–I always think it’s interesting how— (camera freezes) Um, so in Indonesia, I think since we didn’t have community in that way, I think that was why my parents were looking for Buddhist temple for us to go to which I think was really interesting because that was the only place that we lived where they did that. And I feel like that’s part of–that must have been part of them seeking to find connection in some way. So, Indonesia is like a predominantly Muslim country, but there’s like a small ethnic minority of Chinese Buddhists. And so, we did find a temple and we went there several times. And I remember we tried one place first. And these experiences were really strange as a little kid. Because like you go somewhere and you’re like “I don’t know what’s happening.” And then also like with these kind of religious things, my parents didn’t really explain them to me. They were just like “We’re doing this,” and no reason why or like they tell–tell me to hold the incense and pray or whatever. But then I didn’t know what praying was, kind of, like just think of things that I want. (laughs) But like at the time, especially when I was like eleven and twelve, I would start praying a lot. This is—I’ve got kind of getting off track a little. But like it’d be very concerning to me to like pray for the health and safety of my family. But anyway, I think that was why we started going to temple was to find some kind of connection to some part of our culture in a–in a different country and in a different country among so many like white Christians. And when we moved again, it was to Bangkok, Thailand although we lived in like a suburb which was another ex–expat community. And there were lots of different types of people because it was a much bigger place. Like I mentioned the other—and Indonesia is very, very small. And so, moving to Bangkok is like the school was a lot bigger. The community was a lot bigger and the people who lived in the community weren’t just people who had kids going to the school there. And there were more—I guess that was the same with the oth–with living in Indonesia but you don’t—I don’t know. Anyway, it was a lot bigger, and Thailand is a Buddhist country. So, like there were more opportunities to kind of connect to like broadly Southeast Asian culture. And we also didn’t go to temple anymore (laughs) which is really interesting. I don’t—I think when my dad did work with people who were Vietnamese, he would always invite them over for dinner and stuff like that. But then that didn’t happen too often. But also living in Thailand, we were a lot closer to Vietnam and Bangkok is a more attractive destination to visit. So, like we still had family who were in, I guess, Hồ Chí Minh City (Ho Chi Minh City). And we were able to—First we went to see them. So, like soon after we moved to Thailand, we went to see them. So, I think that’s where the–the lines of like community intersecting with family were being like—family being a big part of community comes back again. And then they also came to visit us in Thailand. Yeah. I think—And then for myself like I’ve only been more interested in reconnecting with my Vietnamese-ness, I guess. Especially now that I’m like in the northeast where it feels like there aren’t a lot of Vietnamese people. So, like I joined an employee—like a staff group, I guess, at work. They have like different—They’re kind of identity based because there’s like a women’s—they call them ERGs, which are Employee Resource Groups. There’s like a women’s group and an LGBTQIA group. And then there’s a south Asian, I think, and a Princetonians of color group and there’s also an Asian staff group. So, I joined them and like I recently organized a tour of the library and special collections. And I got to meet some other people who are Vietnamese which was really exciting and like learning about—like one of them grew up in New Jersey. So, I was like fascinated by that. (laughs) And it does sound like a lot of the time like the communities kind of center around a church or something. And then it sounds like they’re not like in my immediate area. There’s like different little communities in other areas around New Jersey. And I know there’s like a big—there’s kind of like a little Saigon in Philadelphia. And when my parents came to visit us one time, we went to visit Philly and go there. But I haven’t been back. Philadelphia is like an hour and fifteen minutes from where I am. So, it’s not a short drive. Yeah. But I feel like building and finding community is really hard when it’s not—I don’t know. Like if I were—Like my brother lives in Los Angeles. Like he could just go to like different parts of Los Angeles to find like cultural or community activities to join. But I feel like it’s not quite the same as when we were in Indonesia and like were really isolated and felt really different. But it’s still kind of close. (chuckles) Yeah. And it’s also weird being an expat in anoth–in an overseas country when you’re an American. And then you’re in an Asian country as an Asian person or—and people don’t get that. They like–they think you’re either like from, you say—If you say you’re—I remember like when I moved–first moved to Thailand, I–we had to introduce ourselves. And I said I was American. And then someone was like retorted and said I wasn’t because, you know, I’m not white. And like—so, that experience is really interesting, too, because people who are Thai think that I’m Japanese or Chinese or something else that I’m not. And then, you know, other people think I’m Thai or like if I tell someone I grew up in Thailand, they’ll think I’m Thai and stuff like that. So, it’s really weird. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:38.000 Mmm. That is–yeah–that’s a weird experience that I think a lot of people like us can relate to but that needs to be spoken about more. So, I’m glad you brought that up. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.000 Yeah. 00:35:39.000 --> 00:36:44.000 So, you said that you’re–you’re like–you’re getting in touch with your Vietnamese-ness, and I like the way you put that. How did you feel as a kid–as a kid like in all these different places. Like how did you–how did you identify yourself then? Like, you know, whether consciously or not. Like what did you perceive yourself as? And how–and related to that, I’m more interested in how you thought about your own identity? But I’m also curious about if your parents, intentionally or not, kind of tried to sway your identity one way or the other. Like how much did they try to hold on to–hold on to this heritage? And–and in what specific ways if I can ask? Like I guess obvious examples would be like, you know, taking you to the temple and praying. But–but what other ways did they–did they hold on to identity? And then in what ways did they just kind of like “eh,” like let you be American so to speak. (Vo laughs) 00:36:44.000 --> 00:38:41.000 Yeah. That’s a really good question. And I don’t even know if I remember like what I thought of myself as. I really do think, though—Because like it was a while ago, and I’m guessing that because I introduced myself as being American (chuckles) like that’s what I kind of thought of myself as. And I do also remember like other Asian students who were at the international school with me asking like what ethnicity I was. And like then I would say I was Vietnamese, but I think it’s weird living overseas because your nationality kind of matters, I guess in a weird way, like legally as well. But like how you can connect to other people because of what–whatever shared cultural touchpoints there are. Because I went to a school, and I didn’t realize this until later. But because, um, but because my dad’s company paid for us, paid for our tuition and a lot of other American kids’ dads or moms or guardians or whatever, like their jobs would pay for tuition too. Tuition was really high so like a lot of the Thai kids who went to school with us were really wealthy. And like I think that was a really—now I’m getting off topic again because (chuckles and twirls her right pointer finger in the air) — 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.000 That’s okay. That’s all right. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:41:48.000 So, going back though is like I think I really thought of myself as American because we kind of—at least at that school, like the cliques and the groups of the way that kids kind of group each other is mostly by nationality and language. So, there were always a lot of–there were–there’s like the Japanese kids, the Taiwanese kids, the Indian kids, and like–and then the American kids which also included Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand and British kids. So, it was like that was a weird mix because I feel like things, you know, like nationality and language have some sep–like some ways that they intersect in interesting ways, I guess. But then, um, but then like my mom still today would be like she used the word American as an interchangeable word with white. Like she’ll say, “They’re American.” But she actually means they’re white because, you know, we’re also American but when we lived overseas it was like that was–she would–we would identify as being Americans, I guess. It’s very weird like how it changed from the context of where we were. And I think that the only thing that was really Vietnamese about us was like the food that we ate, because at home my parents didn’t make us speak Vietnamese or like they didn’t punish us if we only spoke English. Because we would only respond in English. So, I think they gave up on that. But they still, you know, would use a mix of English and Vietnamese with us. And I think that, yeah, I don’t want to just think of identity as just being language and food and religion. But those are the big things that I think about, I think, when I think of my identity. And I know there all the–a lot of others, little things as well that show up in other, more subtle ways, I guess. But those are the big things that—the bigger, obvious things that I can think of. 00:41:48.000 --> 00:42:17.000 Okay. Okay. (Vo laughs) Thank you for that. Tell us—So, you mentioned food. Tell me what mealtimes were like in your family. Like who did the–the cooking and the cleaning and were your parents or your mom—Well, I don’t want to assume anything but were your parents (Vo laughs) like open to different types of food? Yeah. What do you think of when you think about your childhood and eating? 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:49.000 I think I was really lucky (chuckles) because like my mom was the cook in the family. So, after my dad finished his Ph.D., my mom stopped working. She used to be an accountant and supported the family and supported my dad through school. But then he got a full-time job and that became like he became the primary—what’s the word—the primary— 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:50.000 Breadwinner? 00:42:50.000 --> 00:44:12.000 Yeah. (chuckles) And so she spent a lot of time cooking for us. And I feel really lucky because like I definitely couldn’t like make the kind of meals that she did. Because like she always had two or three dishes at the table even if—and then she’ll, you know, like talking to her now, she’ll say like “It’s really easy to just, you know, sauté some vegetables with—and then focus on a bigger dish.” But like that’s a lot of time. And she had like a repertoire of foods that she’d always make but then like she always like try–she still likes trying to make new dishes and lately she’s—well, not lately but like over the past five or so years, my parents have both been really into the k-dramas. So, like she’s been cooking a lot of, and trying out a lot of Korean dishes. And like before that she tried out a lot of Japanese dishes because she loves watching cooking shows on NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corporation) and stuff like that. And even— 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.000 What’s NHK? 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:22.000 It’s—I don’t know what it stands for but it’s like the Japanese channel on TV. 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:23.000 Oh. 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:43.000 And they have like an English language version, so like an international version as well. And that plays in the U.S. too. But I think like in Japan like NHK is the big broadcasting corporation. 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.000 Okay. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.000 I guess it maybe, maybe analogous to like the BBC or something. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:49.000 Okay. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:47:24.000 I don’t know. Yeah. But they played that on US t–US television and my mom likes the cooking shows. And I think she–she definitely likes more east Asian and southeast Asian cuisine. But she’s also tried cooking like Italian food and other like “American” foods. I remember this chick–this really gross chicken salad she tried making that had like potato chips on it. I think that’s the only thing that she ever made that I really didn’t like that she tried making. But yeah, she’s always—And like that’s the way that she–that’s her–that’s the way she shows her care. And even not just for her family but like for guests and stuff. Like the way that she puts so much care and attention to her cooking and meal planning, I feel like has really affected how I also, you know, show care to people now too. Because she really goes all out! (chuckles) Like during visits not even like several days of visiting but even just like one meal visit, she’ll cook a lot of food. And mealtimes were—I really liked the meals that I grew up having with my family. Because we’d like all sit down and there would be several dishes to eat and it would always be delicious. (chuckles) Yeah. My brother was a picky eater growing up but I don’t remember him being picky at home, just at restaurants. When we’d go to a restaurant, we’d have to stop at a fast-food chain if there was one and get him French fries and chicken nuggets or whatever. But I don’t remember that being an issue at home. So, I–my mom knew how to cook for a picky eater. (laughs) 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.000 That’s awesome. It sounds like she’s an amazing cook. 00:47:27.000 --> 00:48:21.000 She is! Like it’s funny because of the way she is when you want—And because her food is so good, we’ll want to learn how to cook from her. But her impulse is just to make it without showing you how to. My brother always tells the story now about how his–his partner wanted to learn how to make chả giò (cha gio, egg rolls) and–but then she got home late from work. And when they got—And my mom was—But first like she wanted to learn how to make it and my mom said she would show Shannon how to make it. But then when Shannon got home from work, my mom already made them, because she (laughs) because, I don’t know. 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.000 Yeah. It’s sounds like your mom is similar to my mom, and I would describe my mom as maybe impatient? 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:58.000 Yeah. Maybe that’s the—She is impatient. And also, I think she would dismiss any like, any—not criticism but like if–but when Shannon came home and was like “Oh, I wanted to learn how to make this with you.” I think my mom would be like “You’re coming home so late. You’re tired. So, I made them.” Like, “I did it for you!” (both laugh) 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:09.000 That's nice. What’s your favorite thing that your mom makes? Like if you were having a birthday dinner, and she was like “I’ll make you whatever you want.” What would you ask for? 00:49:09.000 --> 00:50:10.000 Every time I go home, I ask for bún riêu (bun rieu) because my mom’s bun rieu is really good. I tried making it once and I think I even–she even—So, she loves cooking and I guess she loves me so much that I’ll ask for a modified recipe, and she’ll write one for me. I know a lot of people —like I feel like a lot of people with, you know, immigrant parents who cook will like–they’ll–their response is like “There’s no recipe. I just use my, you know, my intuition.” But my mom—maybe it’s my luck that she also likes recording things. So, she also has like written up almost or like the majority of her recipes or like the ones that we really like. 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.000 Wow! 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:35.000 Yeah. And this was like early 2000 so there was a lot of clip art in the Word documents. And she printed them out and put them in books or binders for us. But like when I wanted a vegetarian version of bun rieu she wrote one for me. (laughs) 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:36.000 Oh! 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.000 Yeah. 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.000 That’s amazing! I’ve never heard of that from an Asian mother. (laughs) So, you are— 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.000 I know! 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.000 —really lucky! 00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000 Yeah. She—I feel like that and also like she loves taking photos and for a long time she–and still now, she like has a bunch of photo albums. And like she’s still working through them because, you know, now we take photos like–like it’s nothing. (laughs) So, I think that–that’s slowed her down a lot because now she takes so many pictures. But yeah. I would say that’s my favorite dish. I know that when I was younger, chicken curry was my favorite because my family would tease me a lot about how I would lick the bowl clean because I loved it so much. (laughs) But it’s really hard to pick one dish because she’s really great at cooking. 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Mmm. That’s cool. Yeah. Curry is my favorite Vietnamese thing. But only the way my mom makes it. So— 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:00.000 Yeah. Yeah! (laughs) 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:24.000 So, you mentioned—I guess I want to back track again. You mentioned briefly about your grandparents. Can you tell me more about them and anything that you know about them and where they lived during your life? And how often you–you saw them? I think you said you didn’t really see them. But anything you wanted to add about them? 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Yeah. I did see my grandmothers every summer when we visited the United States. 00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:34.000 Where did they live? 00:52:34.000 --> 00:58:10.000 For the two—Um, my bà ngoại (ba ngoai, maternal grandmother) lived in Tulsa. She lived with her son and her daughter. And then my bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother) lived in Dallas or like around Dallas. And she lived with one of my aunts. I don’t remember which number she is. My dad has a lot of sisters. He has two brothers. That’s easy to remember. And then the rest are sisters. And I re–never met my grandfathers. One of–My dad’s dad, my ông nội (ong noi, paternal grandfather), lived–or never got to leave Vietnam. He died in Vietnam. And my dad has talked about like how the last time he saw him was like before he left Vietnam. So, that was—I think there’s—Well, I can’t speak to that, how my dad feels about that. I think he feels, you know, sad about it. And he’s written a poem about it. (laughs) So, I feel like there’s some kind of–there’s a little resolution there because he’s able to talk about it. But, you know, it’s like a–a–I wouldn’t call it a regret, but like a weight maybe. And my–my ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather), I think he was in California and that’s where he’s–he was–I don’t know. I think he was cremated and he’s in Tulsa, though. I don’t remember the timeline or what happened with him. But he did make it to America for a little while. I think he might have died in ’90 or something. And then–But then my grandmothers, they–they lived until 2013, I think. They actually died a week apart and I was in grad school at the time. Like one grandmother was 90 or 91, my–my ba noi. And then ba ngoai was in her late 80s. It’s kind of crazy how they both passed around the same time. So, I think what my paren—My parents do đám giỗ (dam gio, death anniversary) every year for them, and also my uncle who passed, and also my grandfathers. So, I do–we do think about them a lot or continue to. But I do know that my ba noi was in—I think she was born—if she was 90, then she was like born in the ‘20s. And my dad had once or twice mentioned that she lived in, during, you know, like the Japanese occupation. So, she—But she never—And I was never really able to talk to either of my grandmothers. Because my Vietnamese is really bad (laughs). I’m able to understand basic things that they would say to me, but then more complicated things were difficult. And I think it was—Since they did live until their–until 2013, that was when I started to be more interested in my cultural heritage. And I tried learning Vietnamese on my own. And that’s been a struggle. (laughs) But like in their last year or so, I wrote them letters in Vietnamese, and I feel glad that I was able to connect with them in that way before they were gone. Because I wasn’t really able to, you know, before that. And I feel like as kids I took them for–as a kid, I took them for granted. They were just always around. They didn’t really do a lot. At least my ba ngoai didn’t do a lot. I think it was hard for her because she—Like ba noi had some many family members around, like her daughters, her grandchildren. And she seemed to have a more active social life. But then being in Tulsa, I think it was harder for ba ngoai to have an active social life and community. And so, she was home a lot. And–and we were home a lot too, but we were kids and just wanted to have fun doing kid stuff. Yeah. 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:25.000 Did you ever get any kind of sense from them about–about how they felt about being in the U.S. and about leaving Vietnam? 00:58:25.000 --> 01:01:30.000 No. Not at all. (chuckles) Like–like my communication skills were really limited. And then also I, since we were only–we saw them like two, a few weeks out of the year, too. So, like that also made it harder to–to connect with them, I think. Because during the summer, it was like always so exciting to get to back to the States and see my cousins who I was really close to. And so, my—And also like when we were in Indonesia, there weren’t—the only fast-food place was a KFC in the city. And like we’d be so excited to eat junk food and like do American type things, like go to the movies and watch TV, that it was never important to me. And I regret that like now. To talk to them or try to talk to them. So, most of our conversations were like about eating, like “Did you have lunch yet?” And it’s funny how my ba ngoai would–we would have like junk food for lunch and then she’d ask if we ate, and we’d say we’d had Wendy’s or something. And she’d say “That’s not really lunch. You have to have like a meal with rice to like, you know—” (chuckles) So, like conversations are limited to food and like I think that’s part of like how food is such a big part of being Vietnamese. Because like there’s so many conversations and like questions about food. (laughs) Like “did you eat yet?” and then like comments about food and how much you’re eating, and what you look like— (laughs) and stuff like that. But yeah. Yeah, my Vietnamese was very bad, and I think that part of it was because we lived away from our relatives and from community. And I think maybe my other–my other relatives thought that we weren’t as Vietnamese for not being able to speak Vietnamese. I think a lot of people like have that experience among their family members. (laughs) 01:01:30.000 --> 01:02:03.000 Yeah. Did your—I have so many, full of questions related to what you just said (both are laughing) so I’m trying to pick one. So, do you feel like your–your Vietnamese language ability—Or how does your–how does your level of language ability affect your interactions with other Vietnamese people, whether they’re Vietnamese American like us or like people like from Vietnam? Like how–how does that play into how you perceive yourself and how you think they perceive you? 01:02:03.000 --> 01:04:05.000 Yeah. That’s a really big question. (Both chuckle) I talked to someone recently who was saying that she grew up in Vietnam until she was like ten and then came to the United States. And so, Eng–English is her second language but being an adult now like I’m guessing in her forties or—that she’s lost a lot of that Vietnamese language. And I felt a lot of like regret from her about that because I think it’s such an integral part of being, you know, of saying that you’re from somewhere or that you’re from some part of some culture. And people make a big deal out of it, too. Like–like my cousins who are definitely like fluent or more fluent than I am and like they’ll always tease me about it. And then–and then I join in sometimes too, because my brother’s Vietnamese is worse now, about like, you know, pronunciation and stuff. And I feel like, I don’t know. It’s not cool. (laughs) Like I know that I join in on it sometimes too but like language isn’t part of—it’s only a little part of it, I guess, of who you are. And, um, I forgot the rest of your question. 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:20.000 Oh, that’s okay. It was a long question. It was just related to language and how people see you and how you see yourself. And then also how it affects your interactions with other Vietnamese people. 01:04:20.000 --> 01:06:52.000 Right. There was a day recently where I met Vietnamese people in the area. It was that work event. And we were talking because there was another Vietnamese person there. And we were talking about surnames. And I said my surname, but I said it the American way. And he corrected me. (laughs) And so like–like it’s funny but it’s also like–it also feels another way. Like, I don’t know. Maybe I haven’t–I’m still struggling with that question. I think it’s something that may never be resolved. Because I feel like I’ve lost a lot from not having that language. And I feel like it probably was my first language, you know, before I went to school. And then like even my cousin who is only three months older than me, when she started school, she had to be in an ESL program, because they only spoke Vietnamese at home. And I feel like, yeah, I don’t know. I feel like I’ve lost a lot by losing my language. And I think that’s why that other person I met feels that way too. Like you lose something from losing language. And it makes me feel a little emotional. Yeah. Like even though I’ve never been fluent except, you know, at a toddler age fluency (laughs) it still feels like a loss and—Because you—like I mentioned, I never was able to have conversations with my elders, my grandmothers. And I think that’s—And like that’s something you can never get back. 01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:04.000 Yeah. Thank you for answering. And even though it was emotional, I appreciate that. It’s something I think about a lot, so I felt like I had to ask you. 01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:07.000 Yeah. 01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:35.000 Okay. Let me just ask one more question, since I think we’ve been talking for a while. I say that and I–I’m trying to choose a question (laughs) because I just–I still have so many. I’m sorry. We’ll have to cut this part. (Both laugh) 01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:39.000 Okay. 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:56.000 Do you–Do your–Did your parents ever talk to you about what it means to be a Vietnamese person? 01:07:56.000 --> 01:10:52.000 Not really. Like not directly. A lot of what they taught me about it is like–it’s like how I mentioned we’d go to temple or like go to some kind of ceremony and they’d tell me what to do, but not explain it. (chuckles) I feel like the explanation part would really fill out what it is to be Vietnamese. But at the same time, you don’t really need it, I guess, because I don’t know. Like even not knowing what it is that I’m doing (laughs) or understanding why it is I do things, it’s like coming from them and it’s coming from like generations of people before them. So, it feels Vietnamese. (laughs) Like they’ve never—I guess I’ve had some moments, not with them, but like with other relatives who–who going back to the language thing like I think like because there were times because they didn’t have—or didn’t know words or didn’t know how to say something, they’d ask me like—Or maybe even with food, I don’t know. Like little things. They’d ask me if I—like how American I was versus how Vietnamese I was. And that’s like—But that was never something my parents would say. So, I feel like their instruction (laughs) has been very indirect. And I feel like–I feel like I’m the type of person that, with a lot of things, I feel like I’ve missed things when people are indirect. Like I feel so complicated when someone says or does something and they have layers of intention behind that, and then I didn’t–I don’t think about it. And I didn’t realize like that’s what they meant. But I hope that like in some subconscious way (chuckles) I–I know that’s what they meant by, I don’t know, not sure if that makes sense. 01:10:52.000 --> 01:11:10.000 Do you mean that like when people are indirect about their intentions when they’re communicating them? That’s–that’s related to being Vietnamese. (Vo laughs) Because we just–we just do things because it’s traditional. Like is that possibly where you were going? 01:11:10.000 --> 01:13:18.000 That’s part of it. I guess part of what I’m thinking is like in social interactions my mom will sometimes explain why or why not she will say or not say something to someone else. And I feel like seeing the level of nuance in like that type of communication, I’m like—It makes me feel like being indirect and like implying something. Like that mode of communication is a little Vietnamese, maybe. But–and that’s why I’ve never really received like a direct like “This is what it means to be Vietnamese. Like we do things this way.” But also, I wonder like how much of it is just like individual quirks. Because my cousin says Vietnamese people are always late. But my parents are always early. (chuckles) So, I thought like being early was being Vietnamese. (laughs) But–but that might just be my parents who are very on time and like my dad will be ready to go something thirty minutes early. And I think that’s his anxiety. (laughs) Yeah. That’s what I mean. Like you get hints like that. But sometimes it’s hard to know. Like what it means or like yeah. I don’t know if that makes sense. 01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Yeah. I–Well I mean it was a complicated question and it’s not something that’s easily defined, I don’t think, by anybody. So, I appreciate your thoughts on it. So, thank you. Okay. So, let’s wrap up this conversation and then in our next conversations we’ll talk more about–we’ll continue to talk about community and identity but also about your adulthood. (Both laugh) 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Okay. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:48.000 Okay. 01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:49.000 Well, thank you, Jenn. 01:13:49.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yeah. Thanks Amy. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.
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Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022.
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Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people.
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SC027-108
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2022-11-10
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video
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Amy Vo
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Jennifer H
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity
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Indonesia; Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam); Vinh Long (Province); Hanoi (Vietnam); Saigon (Vietnam)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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Oral History
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Jennifer Ho
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Hac Tran
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml
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Chicago
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6.0 Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. SC027-107 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Chicago Vietnam immigration community Vietnamese American identity Hac Tran Jennifer Ho moving image TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b8ef81b80a4c8239d06fed2bf8486bf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Hac Tran on April 25, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 26 Childhood and Vietnamese community Hac talks about his childhood in Chicago and his early connection to the Vietnamese American community. He speaks of his parents’ involvement in the community and shares their backgrounds and migration stories. Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Argyle ; Uptown ; Chicago ; diaspora ; Tet ; Nam Dinh ; Hanoi ; Hai Duong ; Hai Phong ; French colonialism ; Da Lat ; Saigon ; Wake Island ; Trinity Christian College ; Palos Heights ; Milwaukee ; Chinatown ; Oak Park ; Mimosa Café 0 629 Restaurant life Hac talks about Mimosa Café, the restaurant his parents opened in the 1980s, and shares his memories there. He also talks about his recent visit to the restaurant, and reflects on his parents motivation to open the restaurant. Red hots ; Wheaton North High School ; Head Start ; Glendale Heights ; Vietnamese community ; restaurant kid ; Nam Dinh ; pho 0 1095 Family relationships Hac talks about his relationships with his immediate and extended family. Milwaukee ; Glendale Heights ; cousins ; California ; Texas 0 1291 Asia on Argyle, Vietnamese identity and media representation Hac reflects on his long relationship with the Argyle community, as well as his Vietnamese identity and how it has evolved through the years. He talks about the media and books that have impacted him personally. Lunar new year ; DePaul University ; Christopher House ; Uptown ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Texas ; media representation ; racism ; Jet Li ; Trinh Cong Son ; Bob Dylan ; Joan Baez ; Khanh Ly ; nhac vang ; Bolero music ; nhac trinh ; Modern Talking ; New Wave ; Andrew X. Pham ; Catfish and Mandala 0 2060 Argyle shops and restaurants Hac talks about the businesses on Argyle. He mentions some of his favorite meals at local restaurants. Tai Nam ; Double Happiness ; Hong Kee ; Vietnamese Chinese ; Teochew ; Jennifer Pham ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Nha Hang Viet Nam ; Da Nang Kitchen ; Quang Nam ; Mi Quang ; Pho 777 ; Hanoi ; Café Hoang ; Hue 0 2324 Life plans, Vietnam and culture Hac talks about his community ambassador role in the Uptown neighborhood, and why he didn’t expect to be working here as an adult. He describes his time living and working in Vietnam and the plans he had at the time. He also talks about the idea of moving back to Vietnam, and how culture evolves. Argyle ; Budapest ; Hungary ; Texas ; non-governmental organization ; Save the Children ; Quang Nam ; Le Ly Hayslip ; gentrification ; culture 0 2652 Vietnamese American identity Hac reflects on what makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American. food ; Prague ; Little Saigon ; diaspora ; cultural events ; place-based lived experiences ; Double Happiness ; cultural corridors ; identity 0 2974 Similarities, differences and how we see ourselves Hac talks about the ways he is similar and different from other Vietnamese Americans, how he is seen by people in the community and how he sees himself. He also talks about his parents ideas of how to maintain Vietnamese identity. Viet kieu ; Southern California ; Orange County ; Sup Dawk ; boundaries ; expectations ; HAIBAYO ; Vietnamese language 0 3866 Vietnamese communities around the world Hac talks about interesting Vietnamese diasporic communities he has visited abroad. Little Saigon ; San Jose ; Budapest ; Czech Republic ; Prague ; Paris ; Chinatown ; Eastern Europe 0 4117 Partnership and passion Hac talks about his business partner and friend, Jenny Pham, and what keeps them motivated to do community heritage work. Jennifer Pham ; Da Lat ; Chinh tri Kinh doanh ; Nguyen Van Tam ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Hue ; Lac Nhan ; Axis Labs ; HAIBAYO ; Tong wars ; Chinatown ; Hip Sing ; San Francisco ; New York ; ethnic Chinese ; Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy ; CVS ; cultural legacy ; erasure ; Chicago Transit Authority ; Hoan Huynh 0 4812 Impact of time in Vietnam, and how we build connections Hac reflects on his time spent in Vietnam and how it affected him. He speaks of meeting family members for the first time, and of how it solidified his sense of personal identity as well as his career plans. He discusses how connections are built in Vietnam versus in the U.S. Agent Orange ; south Vietnamese ; collective bonds ; community 0 5393 Asian and Black community relations Hac reflects on the relationships between the Asian and Black communities. He talks about the email he sent to his family regarding this division, and how his parents passed down a love for humanity. racism ; colorism ; Black community ; Black Lives Matter 0 5728 Next steps and finite time Hac talks about what is next for him, and also about a recent health scare from his father that made him realize their time together is limited. community work ; Chicago ; inherent trauma ; reconciliation 0 Oral history Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally.
 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Okay. Today is April 25th, 2023. I’m Jenn Ho, and I’m here with Trần Qúy Hạc (Tran Quy Hac), interviewing him for the Children of Refugees Vietnamese American Oral History Project, and we are in Chicago, Illinois. Thanks for being with me today, Hac. How are you? 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Oh, yeah. I’m doing well. Thank you for this opportunity to, you know, speak and share my family’s history. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Yeah, my pleasure. Okay, so let’s start from the beginning of your life. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:49.000 I was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1985 at Michael Reese Hospital which is in Bronzeville. Yeah. So, I was born in Chicago. My parents came here ten years prior. So, I was―I have an older sister, born in 1984. They’ve tried to have children before but, you know, a lot of miscarriages. So, my sister and I were kind of like miracle babies, I guess, after multiple miscarriages, for my mother. But, yeah, I was born and raised a little bit in Chicago. I’ve moved to the Chicagoland. Always been connected to―especially, you know, the Vietnamese American community here in Chicago, which was where we are now in Argyle Street which is now called Asia on Argyle. But, you know, growing up we always called it just Argyle or in Vietnamese you would say “Ahgai.” So, my parents were part of the Vietnamese Association of Illinois (VAI), in the early days. My mom worked there as a secretary years, years ago like in the late ‘70s and my dad was part of the board throughout the ‘90s. So, you know, I–we were always like engaged with the Vietnamese community within Chicago since my parents came here. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Okay. Thank you for that–that context. 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.000 Yeah. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.000 So, you’ve really always been immersed in the Vietnamese American community? 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.000 Yeah. 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:04.000 How did you feel about that as a child? Were you really into it? Or did you–did you embrace it or–or no? 00:02:04.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Yeah. I–from my memory, I would say like, yeah, I did embrace it in the sense that, you know, when you’re young, you have friends. So, there was like a lot of other kids our age. So, it’s like, you know, you–you build those friendships. It’s more about “Hey, I want to see my friend” and like be part of this, you know, this community of youth. It didn’t really click until later, you know, the idea of like being immersed within one’s diaspora and one’s culture. Because over the years growing up, you know, like you are part of it, but then you go to school. You kind of integrate into, you know, the larger American dominant society. So you do–I did like I felt like I did lose touch with my community and my culture for some period of time, like in my teen years up until college. But, yeah, as a kid, I was involved not only with the community but we were every like Tết (Tet) and like Lunar New Year like my mom and her friends organize the dance troupe of like all the youth. So, we were―every year we were like performing as kids, and like just in the youth programs and stuff with VAI and the larger Vietnamese community. So, but yeah, I think I embraced it because it was more so like connection between like other kids your age. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Yeah. Like it’s so— 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 That just happened to be, you know— 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.000 Yeah. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.000 —we were all so embedded within Vietnamese culture and–and things like that. 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:41.000 Yeah. Would you say that your parents were involved because they–because they wanted to make sure that you held on to your sense of culture? Or was it really more for them or maybe a little bit of both? 00:03:41.000 --> 00:05:13.000 I think it’s both, because, you know, growing up I would hear it, you know, you can’t like mất gốc (mat goc, to lose your roots). You shouldn’t lose your roots. Like I would always consistently hear that from my parents, especially when they—you know, I would like prefer to speak English to them or something like that. And obviously also I believe it’s part of, you know—especially as refugees, right? They came in 1975. My dad always thought he was going to go back. Um, like oh, I—he didn’t—you never really know the future. So when he left the U.S., like for the U.S., or he left Việt Nam (Vietnam), rather — he didn’t really know where he was going — there was always like the desire of home, and returning home. So, I think for them like to have that shared kind of experience collectively with other people who have gotten through the same thing in building community, it’s, in part, I think for them, too, to, you know, maintain what this idea or this notion of home is. And obviously, you know, like when you have a family or–and–kids, you want to pass that culture down to your child. And I think for my parents, it’s—I mean, for many refugees, right? Like, within this–this time—it’s like, a lot of it’s like they’re forced to leave all they knew. So, like you’re in this strange new land and you see that with like throughout the generations with people. Like people like come and they always find their community. So, I think like for them it’s important and like to pass on to your children is–is probably the reason why. Yeah. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I definitely want to talk more about you because this interview is about you. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000 Yeah. 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.000 But obviously we’re not who we are without our parents. So, let’s talk about them for a little bit. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Okay. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:34.000 Do your–do your parents talk a lot about their–their children–uh, their childhood and, you know, their experiences growing up? And I’m talking about like pre-war before— 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Yeah. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:40.000 —all of that stuff, like who they were as–as people. Like are they open to sharing that stuff? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:10:29.000 Yeah. Surprisingly, I hear a lot of people, you know, peers my age, like they don’t know anything about their parent’s family because they don’t want to share it. Either it’s too traumatic or like it’s the past to be buried. But, yeah, like luckily for me I, you know, my–both my parents shared a lot of their history, like their childhood and up until leaving Vietnam. So, like both of my parents are originally from the north. My father is from Nam Định (Nam Dinh) which is a small province like, I believe, it’s like east, southeast maybe. I’m not exactly sure geographically. But it’s not far from Hà Nội (Hanoi). And then my mom’s side of the family—her father’s from Hải Dương (Hai Duong) which is near Hải Phòng (Hai Phong), around there. And my grandmother on my mom’s side is from Hanoi. So, they were--they grew up pre-1954, you know, when there was like still French colonialism. They lived in the north. Like my father was like—his family, I believe his father died young when he was young. Both my—my dad was kind of like an orphan. So, he moved around from different relatives’ houses and stuff. And then my mom’s side of the family—they were kind of like wealthy. So that’s why in 1954 my mom’s side of the family left. They were not Christian or Catholic or anything. So their circumstances for leaving the north for the south in 1954 were drastically different. My father just left with his younger brother, and, yeah. He went south and they lived in Sài Gòn (Saigon). Up until 1975, my father was part of the military a little bit but he went to Đà Lạt (Da Lat) to tea–or to study. He also had connections to the U.S. Embassy teaching English. So, that’s how he kind of got out in ’75. At that point, he was just him because his brother had passed during the war. And then my mom’s side of the family—my grandfather was a very wealthy banker in Saigon. So, she was like what–what you would say is like probably like the one percent of here. So they were–she was very privileged. So, they got out like April 30th through his connections. And then my parents met each other actually initially on Wake Island. So, my dad, I bel—yeah, my dad went to Guam first, and then went to Wake Island which is, I believe, it’s a Pacific island under U.S. military--I think it’s a military base or something. But in the refugee camp there my father was teaching English to other refugees and my mother was his like assistant. So, they had connected there. And then, through sponsorships my father was sponsored through Trinity Christian College in Palos Heights on the southwest side. It’s a suburb southwest of the city. And then my mother’s side was sponsored by a Lutheran church to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So, my dad--you know, they lost touch after leaving Wake Island. But they reconnected actually here on Argyle Street, in probably like ’76-’77 or something like that, I’m not sure the exact year. But the story goes that back then it was not like you see now where there’s, you know, there’s a lot of commerce and businesses. Like where Vietnamese people met was like peoples’ houses. So, there was my dad’s friend. He lived like right at–right over here at Sheridan and Argyle, right across the street from where we’re from, actually. Um, and that year my mother—it was like the winter storm of, I believe, seventy-something and her and her friends from Milwaukee were going to go down to Chinatown. But it was like too much snow. And her friend had heard, “Hey, there’s like actually like someone who sells phở (pho, noodle soup) out of their house.” That’s closer. You know, if you want to go to Chicago, but it’s still like an Asian community. So, they decided to go there. They went there, ate pho, and there was also like mahjong, you know, in the houses. So, the story goes that, you know, my mom actually had to go—her and her friends left, actually, and she needed to go to the bathroom. So, she went back up. And then like the person leaving the bathroom, I believe, was like my dad. And then they met each other again. And through that he like just wrote down his phone number. And then, you know, a back and forth a lot like from my dad drove a lot to Milwaukee and, you know, eventually they got married and then my mom moved down here. Um, so that’s where kind of, I guess, my origin story starts in Chicago. And then like, yeah. Their–their story is, you know, my dad was an auditor for the state of Illinois. They worked with the VAI like I said previously. But like in the very early ‘80s, they decided to open a restaurant. But it wasn’t actually in this area. They opened it kind of on the west side of the city, pretty far west, like close to Oak Park. 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.000 What was it called? 00:10:31.000 --> 00:12:15.000 It was called Mimosa Cafe. At first it was like a Red Hots joint. Like my dad was selling burgers, hot dogs, things like that. And then he decided to add like simple items that were like fried rice, egg rolls onto the menu. And a lot of people really started buying that so he decided eventually to kind of pivot to just open like a Vietnamese restaurant. So it was called Mimosa Cafe. It was like, you know, those like hot dogs’ places are tiny. So, like there was like lines out the door. But then he moved the restaurant to Oak Park off of like Harlem, near the green line. But unfortunately there was like, you know—The economy was bad. He moved completely to another area, lost business. It survived like, five or six years after that, but eventually, you know, he had to shutter the business. And then we—that’s when we moved out to the suburbs. He got a job—a teaching job—at Wheaton North High School. And then, my mom eventually got into social work at Head Start. And then I grew up out in Glendale Heights which—surprisingly, there’s a lot of Vietnamese people out there. There’s a few churches. Not far from there is like a Vietnamese Buddhist temple. So, there’s actually like a large Vietnamese community. And so, I grew up–I grew up with like in–in grade school, high school, with like a lot of Vietnamese kids around me. So, not only was I connected here to Argyle and like VAI and like that youth program of Chicago, but where we lived, like, my kindergarten classroom was like three Tran students—me, Steven, and another Tran, you know. So, it was like, (chuckles) you know, we–I grew up surrounded by that, that culture. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.000 Yeah. Okay. What years was Mimosa Café open? 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.000 (sighs) Whooo. I should–I should know this precisely. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000 You were–you were around though. You were— 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.000 Uh, they opened before I was born. 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 Oh, okay. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:31.000 So, I believe it was like probably like ’80. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000 Okay. 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.000 And then it was like a ten-year period, like from the–from 1980 to 1990, I would say. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000 Okay. 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.000 Yeah. So, they even had it like a restaurant before my sister was born— 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.000 Okay. So, do you have memories of–of being in–in the restaurant? 00:12:46.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Yeah, I do. Um, the–the second restaurant, though. The first one I wasn’t around for that. So, I think, yeah. So, I just remember the one like on Harlem Avenue, over in Oak Park, right at the cusp of the city, just like sitting in the back, like on the milk crates and eating egg rolls and like, you know, his workers like prepping all the food. And there was this one booth that I remember specifically. It was like kind of near to the kitchen entrance, and me and my sister would like, would be those little kids, you know, when you go into a restaurant, you see those little kids coloring and stuff. We were those kids in the back. And it was interesting because like a few years ago—the building still exists. Now, it’s like actually surpri–like funny. It’s like a Red Hots, a gyros hot dog place now. That person bought the building after, you know, my dad shuttered his business. So, we went—actually, my sister and I—went there and it was like–it was weird. Like that was the first time I’d been in there since, like, 1990, I guess. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.000 How did you feel? Tell me. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:49.000 I felt like–I don’t–somewhat emotional, you know. Like, you know, I was going with my sister and this was like kind of our humble beginnings as children, you know and like my parents’ journey of trying to succeed in this country. And I didn’t have, like, true vivid memories because I was so young. I don’t even know if I could put it into words but I felt like–I don’t–it felt–it felt strange. Like there was a kind of out-of-body experience, like whoa, like this is like the past and the present. And like I never really thought about this place, you know. But looking at old photos and stuff, there’s like birthdays every year. We always would have it there. And like all the Vietnamese community would come for our birthdays. So, it was like looking at that and like realizing how far we’ve come since that moment. Yeah, it made it—I would say, yeah. Um, I can’t think of the words right now. 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Okay. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 Yeah. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.000 Sometimes there are no words. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.000 Yeah. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:59.000 So, um, did you and your sister go out there with the purpose of like visiting the (Tran coughs) shop and is that what you were–you set out to do that day? 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:29.000 I don’t think so. We were like thrifting. You know, like—and going to like–like shopping arou—like we stopped by Oak Park for something. I can’t remember what. But then we were like—I’m like “Hey, let’s just–do you want to go in and eat here?” So, we would–we ate but the food was not that great (chuckles). But–but it was more so like, you know, we wanted to like sit down in there and like see it. But, yeah, it wasn’t intentional. It just happened that we drove past it. Like, I’ve driven past it, like actually many times with never like I’m going to go in and see it. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Yeah. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.000 Yeah. 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Okay. Can I ask why–why did your parents decide to open a restaurant? 00:15:36.000 --> 00:17:28.000 I think it was more my father’s dream. Like he always wanted to probably be self-sufficient, and like, you know, have something of his own, to open a business. And he also like really enjoyed cooking. Like he was never like officially trained chef or anything. But like growing up in the north, um, he told me a story. Like, you know, pho actually is from Nam Dinh. The origin of pho, that dish is from his village or from that province. And like growing up, he was like - I guess he worked for like a family friend after his, you know, parents passed. Like his aunt sent him here. This guy who had a pho shop and like he learned that craft from Nam Dinh. So, he cooks, you know, like I think through that like he always like—and being alone, you know, throughout his like kind of formative years going to the south. Like he always had to cook for himself and stuff. So, I think like for him it was more—obviously, one, you want to open a business and try to be successful to probably build for your family. But there was also like this idea, I think, like he’s mentioned before where, you know, it’s–it’s like owning something of his own and like the passion for cooking. Yeah. And my mom is actually—I don’t think she ever really enjoyed the–the restaurant industry. But she like loves cooking. (siren sounds in background) So, it’s like growing up I just remember, you know, a lot of like gender roles within, you know, Vietnamese culture. It’s very patriarchal. But growing up, I would always see my dad in the kitchen with my mom, you know. And that’s like something you don’t really see in Vietnamese families. But he was like—you know, they were cooking together. So, I think like for me that - seeing that - was also like kind of was a segue into my enjoyment of food and–and like kind of food ethnography and food history and things like that. 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Mm-hmm. That’s really cool. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.000 Yeah. (clears his throat) 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:44.000 Something I’ve noticed as a theme in just talking to other Vietnamese people or to people of our generation is that parents always were very self-sufficient and very entrepreneurial. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 (sniffles) Yeah. 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.000 So, it sounds like that’s–that’s your dad. 00:17:47.000 --> 00:18:15.000 Yeah. Even though he like he didn’t succeed I think there’s that still that–that urge to try at least, you know. Like you–you can’t really tell the future of what’s successful or not. Like this block itself, there’s not really any small pop–mom–and shop restaurants from the early ‘90s that exist anymore, you know. So, people like, yeah, it’s that–that drive for–for entrepreneurship and to be self-sufficient, I think. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:30.000 Yeah. Um, okay. So, let’s talk about you. Um, tell me about your family–your family and the people who raised you. I mean you’ve talked about mom and dad but were there any other family members around? 00:18:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. So, like (clears his throat) my father’s side of the family—he’s the only one actually that came to the U.S. So his entire family, all relatives like remained in–mostly in the north. So, I never really knew my dad’s family growing up at all until like later down the year, like years later I went to study abroad in Vietnam and like met them in the north. But like yeah. The people that raised me were, you know, like my mom, my dad, my grandmother. So, my–my mom’s dad died the year that I was born. So, I have two other cousins born like a month after me. Um, so we had—my mom is the oldest of eight. So, initially all of them lived in Milwaukee. But over the years, you know, growing up I remember like a big, close-knit family. Like I had eight aunts and uncles. There was eight of them, and then I had cousins. And those are like beyond my sister and I. Like we had like our cousins. Like those are all like our brothers and sisters. We grew up together. There’s three of them from Milwaukee. Two of them live here now. So, like—and that was like — growing up was—I just remember a lot of—it was a very busy household with a lot of different people always cooking. And like in the ‘90s my grandmother sponsored two of her younger brothers — so, my great uncles — over and they both lived in Glendale Heights near me. So, we would always be surrounded by aunts and uncles and my—I guess they would consider it like second cousins, my—but, you know, in Vietnamese it’s like just your uncle, your parent’s cousin or whatever. So, there was always people around. Um, and that like—I think like in–in many ways that— (coughs) I guess, what am I trying to say? I mean, yeah. It was like a loving environment, in the sense that there are a lot of different types of people, that grew up with you. Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000 That’s nice. Are you still close to these cousins? 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:59.000 Yeah. Um, so there is my sister and I. There is like seven of us in that–in our generation (clears throat) like between like now approaching forties I guess. I think some of them are forty already. But like we all like kind of grew up together and we’re still really close. Two of them live here. One lives in Cali and the other two live in Texas. 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:05.000 It sounds like—Are—I think I’ve met your sister one time a long time ago. You were—you guys are pretty close, aren’t you? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Yeah. (sniffles) 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 That’s nice. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:31.000 Yeah. I’m mean that we are close but we, you know— I–I feel like (clears his throat) there’s also with any siblinghood there’s challenges and, you know, dealing with like inherited traumas and things like that that create conflicts. So, yeah. But we are like despite those things, you know, we are close. Yeah. 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:40.000 That’s great. You–so you’ve known–you’ve known this area, Argyle, your whole life. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.000 I mean, there was years where I didn’t really (clears throat) come here. 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.000 Okay. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:23:41.000 It was probably like high school. Like after I got older I–I wasn’t really part of those dance troupes. Like we would always come here for like Lunar New Year. Um, but as like those like teen years, like I didn’t really—you know, I was hangin’ out with my friends, doing other things. So, I like kind of wasn’t part of the community those years. It wasn’t really until like I returned. So, yeah. During my childhood, I was like really embedded with the community but then the teen years I kind of did my own thing. But I went to DePaul University. So, I moved back to Chicago for college. And through that, like I think there was like—a lot of it during that time was like somewhat of an identity crisis. Like what is—who am—like, you know, who am I? Like am I more Vietnamese or am I like more American? Like kind of, you know, those struggles that a lot of other people in our generation kind of deal with. And beyond our diaspora as well. So, you know, I was questioning like—So, I took a–a bunch of like Asian American classes. I would always like come here. I actually worked from like my freshmen year, sophomore and junior year, I worked at Christopher House which is in Uptown, like with youth. So, we did like a lot of youth development work, one-on-one stuff, like reading skills like that. So, I was like right next—and that’s like right on Leland just south of here. So, I would always, through that, like, you know, Asian American classes, my work, and I started volunteering at like VAI and CMAA (Chinese Mutual Aid Association) in the youth program and as a ESL instructor. So, like through that like I like try to reconnect with this area. Um, but yeah. I think that didn’t really even like kind of answer my questions of what my identity is. So, I decided my junior year to like study abroad in Vietnam. Um, and then my cousin from Texas, one of the ones (something begins to beep)—Oh, can I turn this off? 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000 Yeah, of course. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:24:33.000 Yeah, like the idea of like identity, right? Not really confident of who you are. So, I studied abroad and tried to like—Am I more Vietnamese than I realize? Like, I mean, throughout the years like–like, I’m, you know, Vietnamese American. It’s not like black and white. Like identities are so fluid and vast that it, you know, it’s hard to pinpoint in right or wrong, or this kind of dichotomy of identities, you know. So, I was like comfortable in my own skin of like who I am. And the–it–and not defining, you know. Like the Viet–the Vietnamese American experience is so diverse, right? There’s so many different like ways of thought and how we are. So, just being comfortable. Yeah, I’m a Vietnamese American and understanding and realizing like there are many different types of Vietnamese American people and lived experiences as well. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:59.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. I’m really happy you brought that up because like half my questions are about identity and how we define ourselves. Um, I have to say I’m surprised that growing up amongst a bunch of Vietnamese Vietnamese people and Vietnamese Americans, that you–that you are questioning your identity. That surprises me. 00:24:59.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Yeah. I think like that’s the power of media and the power of—I mean, even though like I’m surrounded by the Vietnamese American community, it wasn’t like—and my family—you know, my family, I would say, I’m there every day. But, you know, especially like the challenge and cultural gaps that you have with your parents of that–that generation. There’s challenges and there’s like—you’re going to butt heads, you know. I didn’t understand these like really kind of more traditional conservative ways of, like, thought. And I’m like, that created conflict. So, even though, you know, you do have family around and community, there’s these—if you peel back the layers like there’s always like, you know, a lot of kind of conflict that exists, whatever that structure may be of conflict. So, I think like you know like saying that, you know you, despite having that–that connection and proximity to culture, in every day like when you go to school, it’s—I mean, there are Vietnamese kids but like there’s many more people. And also like we lived in a suburb that was adjacent to like, you know, a all-white, rich suburb. So, we went to school with kids like that and then you—as a kid you hear like, you know, racist things at that time. Like all that, you know, the kids that will say “ching chong” type of stuff, you know? And also the media just influencing your thought of like your identity, and self—rather like, self-worth, you know. So, there’s like–I feel like there’s a lot of different types of influencing factors of what makes up identity and what really crafted my understanding of like what I am, you know, and like challenging that throughout my youth or feeling like I don’t know what it is, I think. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:26.000 Were—I have two questions. What role did your parents play in helping you figure this out? And by that, I mean like directly. Like, would you ask them a lot of questions? And would they be open to like answering them? Like, is this—were you able to talk to them about this kind of identity searching stuff? 00:27:26.000 --> 00:30:01.000 No. I didn’t. There was like really no question or no communication about that.Like I think like my relationship with my parents –like we were―I don’t know if it was like–it’s really close in the sense where I emotionally share my feelings and my challenges. Because I think like that’s the divide, right? Like just ‘cuz you’re in the same room with someone and next to them doesn’t mean you’re like interacting in a very deep meaningful way. Um, so growing up I never really engaged in that level ever with my parents. It was more like “Hey, you know, you’ve got to, like—” There is a lot of challenges and expectations of success and whatever that success might look like. But, no, I never–I never sought out like seeking my parent’s advice in terms of this. And I’m sure like as I get older now, you know I think about, like, maybe I should have, ‘cuz they themselves are going through probably a similar kind of identity crisis for their children. Because like if you’re in Vietnam and you stayed in Vietnam, you raised your kids this way. But now you’re faced with this completely different culture where your kids are no longer what you expected them to be. And that in a way leads to so many different challenges, you know. But like I think over the years my parents probably adapted themselves. And the expectation of, like, I’m never going to raise a Vietnamese kid like they exist in Vietnam, as a Vietnamese American kid, you know. So, yeah, but no, I never really sought that out. I don’t really actually—sought that out—like I kind of looked in and just found external ways to like understand either through books or media. Yeah, growing up I had Asian American friends like in high school that are still my best friends today. But we never–I don’t think we ever really talked about like the identity issue, right? Like are we Asian American? We just kind of lived it together through our common interests and maybe like our common struggles with–that drew us together. I don’t know. But um, yeah. I think it was more like just seeking ways to search for my identity externally either through reading or education or through experiential learning and like living abroad or something, you know. (sniffles) 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Okay. Thank you for that. You’ve mentioned media and external sources a few times. Were there any, like, you know fictional or real-life heroes that you kind of looked up to or felt a strong connection to? Or any like favorite books or musicians or anything that really like gave you a sense of strength and power? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah. I guess like real-life heroes, not really. It’s like, right, we talk about the representation of the Asian man in media. It’s like all kung-fu, even though like that’s the case, I did love Jet Li. Like his movies were bad ass, you know. So, me and my cousin would watch, you know, martial arts movies and like–like, yeah, hell yeah. Like this dude’s cool as hell, you know? But yeah, and then you see the larger dominant media and society depicting it. So, that influences like all your “I’m unworthy” type of thoughts, you know, that slowly start growing in your head. Um, music―I have like a weird history with music. Like–like I grew up just listening to like a lot of actually pre-war Vietnamese music and I still love it today. Like there’s–there’s a guy named Trịnh Công Sơn (Trinh Cong Son) who was considered the Bob Dylan of Vietnam. I think Joan Baez said that about him. And he always sang with Khánh Ly (Khanh Ly) and like that duo who was like pre-war. So, that type of music I think it’s called like nhạc vàng (nhac vang, yellow music, more commonly known as Bolero music.) (Note: Son and Ly are usually categorized as Nhạc Trịnh [Nhac Trinh]). My parents loved that so I would always listen to it. And I still love it today. But then like, yeah, my older cousins would listen to weird Euro-dance like, you know, Modern Talking. What did―it’s funny, because it’s like–there’s a documentary coming called “New Wave.” So, it was like a lot of that music that Vietnamese called New Wave but it’s like Euro-Pop, Euro-Trance, or whatever. So, I listened to a lot of that. So, even though it wasn’t Vietnamese, I think like a lot of Vietnamese people listened to that. And like even today, when you like―I hear Modern Talking like (sings) “You’re my heart. You’re my soul. Nah-nah-nah,” like on the block, it’s like all instant like “Yo!” Like that’s like, it sparks some type of, you know, realization or connection to someone else which is― yeah, I don’t know how–why my cousins listened to it, but they did. But I guess like maybe a lot of Vietnamese American in that generation did because now there’s a documentary being made about it, you know. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 Yeah. I heard about that. It’s really cool. 00:32:40.000 --> 00:33:21.000 Yeah. Books, I think, more identity-wise, Catfish and Mandala (by Andrew X. Pham) was one of the first books that I really kind of―because it talked about–he biked through Vietnam, right? Like he talks about like–it was a page turner. It’s like a memoir and it really resonated with what I was going through at that time. It’s like wow! Like I want to seek—you know, that book didn’t tell you what to think. It was just sharing his experience and I wanted to―in many ways—live that experience too (siren sounds in background), to search and find what any resolution to what challenge of identity I had at the time. Yeah. So, yeah, that book I think. 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.000 That was a really good book. I had it for years on my bookshelf before I had the courage to read it. 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:33.000 Yeah. I should re-read it. I haven’t opened it since that one time I read it. 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:43.000 The part that sticks out in my head is the part where he says that he was looking at some like muck on the ground or like trash or something and he just felt really ashamed of his country. 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Oh, wow! 00:33:45.000 --> 00:34:20.000 And, I remember that sticking out to me because I was never proud of my identity at all. So, I’m still working on that honestly. This is your interview, not mine. (both laugh) Um, okay. I really–I really want to go to your study abroad experience. But first, I want to go back to–to this area in your childhood. So, tell me like were there any businesses or organizations on Argyle or–or Uptown–that stick out in your head and what were their names and why were they important to you? Um, and also any like memories that you can share with us. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Yeah. Yeah. I―so, like I said, I don’t think there’s many businesses that still exist. There are a few, like the grocery stores are still here, like Việt Hoa (Viet Hoa) is still here. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000 How long has― 00:34:33.000 --> 00:36:45.000 I think they’ve been here since like the early—like the ‘80s. Like mid ‘80s until now. So, it’s like forty–forty years plus. Tại Nam (Tai Nam) I think came a little later. Um, but Double Happiness and Hong Kee, so those are all like Chinese restaurants, you know? And those are the ones that kind of have been here the longest and that have sustained over the generations. But Double Happiness is―they’re also refugees from Vietnam, but they’re like Vietnamese Chinese, Teochew Chinese. So, I have like a lot of memories there like going as a kid. The menu it is the same menu from when we–I ate there as a kid. They just photocopied it, whited out the price over, you know, because of inflation. And like now it’s eleven dollars a bowl versus back then it was, like, four. But, it’s still the―it’s like a photocopy and I just remember going in there with my parents and, you know, their friends and their kids, just like having like an ice cold soy milk, eating the dried noodles and just like― And back then, from what I remember like, um, my business partner who is Jennifer Phạm (Jennifer Pham)–her–she grew up here too. And like when we talk about Argyle and our memories of Argyle in the past it’s like—it was so much―like the memory is that the area was so much more bustling. There was so―it was like crowded full of Vietnamese people whereas you see now it’s like almost desolate, you know? And that–that’s for many reasons, I think. But like, yeah. I mean like the memories of–of that was like in–in the VAI, Vietnamese Association of Illinois, used to be just north of Argyle on Broadway in this older building. They moved since then. But it was on the second floor, just like a lot of memories there. Um, like for the new year, giving speeches in Vietnamese to like the elders, just playing and running around the rooms, like with other kids. Yeah, it was just like―yeah, those are fond memories. Like you don’t have any worries, you know. And you just like had fun and like ate food. It was―yeah. I mean those memories stick out to me, I would say. 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:52.000 What–what–what would you order to eat at these restaurants, like then and now? Like what are your favorite few things? Like if you had so―like a total― 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 That–at that restaurant? 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.000 Yeah, or anywhere else? Like you and I went to Nhà Hàng (Việt Nam) (Nha Hang Vietnam) the other day. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000 Oh, okay. Yeah. 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000 So, anywhere at anytime. 00:36:59.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Well, I still love that noodle place. Like I used to eat there like on a regular―and I get the same thing but it’s the same recipe too. So, basically, it’s just like dried egg noodles with like seafood, pork, garlic oil. You throw in your sauces how you want to dress it. And then there’s a bowl of soup on the side. So, that’s one of my favorite meals on Argyle. I love, currently, today, yeah like there’s–there’s like different, restaurants that specialize in different things, even though like, you know, if you walked into a restaurant, there’s like 95 things on the menu. But if you are, you know, if you live here you kind of know what’s good, what restaurant does what well. So like, yeah. Đà Nẵng Kitchen (Da Nang Kitchen), the husband is from Da Nang, like Quảng Nam (Quang Nam), which is center region. So, they do like a lot of like stuff that you don’t seen on other menus like Mì Quảng (Mi Quang), which is like kind of a turmeric rice noodle, seafood, kind of more condensed broth. That’s really good there. For triple s―if you want northern food, Pho 777, his wife is from Hanoi or that region, and she’s brought a lot of northern Vietnamese dishes that are spectacular that you often don’t see actually in restaurants in the U.S. because it’s more southern food. Um, Café Hòang (Cafe Hoang) has really great bún bò Huế (bun bo Hue). They’re from Huế (Hue), which is like that spicy, you know, beef noodle soup that’s really good. So, yeah, like there–there’s a lot of things. Like when I’m craving something, that’s―you know, I’ll know where to go. Um, and like, yeah. When we ate where we ate, Nha Hang Vietnam, they do a lot of like really good southern style food which is nice. Yeah. Then what el―yeah. (both chuckle) 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.000 Are you here often? Are you in the area often? 00:38:46.000 --> 00:41:37.000 I am, yeah. Since I started this ambassador position―it’s a community ambassador job through the city and through the Chamber. Like I’m here like probably every work day. Like Monday through Friday for parts of the day. But, yeah. I’m always around Argyle. Which is nice, but you know like I never really thought―like literally after college, like I actually moved to Vietnam. So, I studied abroad in Vietnam the year after I studied in Budapest and Hungary. And then I came back, graduated, and then I’m like “Alright, I’m moving to Vietnam.” So, I moved with my two cousins from Texas and we lived there for like three-some years. And I never thought I was going to actually do any type of work in Chicago, let alone like this community. What I wanted to do was like international work, right? Like kind of relief work. I wanted to move back to Vietnam and do like more large-scale, non-governmental organization work. Because my uncle, one of my mom’s younger brothers, like he did a lot of relief work. And he also like moved to Vietnam and worked at Save the Children. He was the country director of Save the Children for a few years and we overlapped and actually he was able to get me an internship. So, I did like non-governmental work in Vietnam. I moved to Hội An (Hoi An), which is also in Quang Nam in central Vietnam and I worked for Lệ Lý Hayslip (Le Ly Hayslip). She is the author and there’s a movie that Oliver Stone did about her. It’s called like “What hea–Heaven and Earth” I think it’s called? So, she has an organization there and I worked for her for like a year. So, I’ve always thought like “Hey, I’m going to go back.” The only reason I came back to Chicago really was to go to grad school, to do like urban planning. But I did international planning, with the intention of like going back to Vietnam or living abroad. But it was like during that research and like during those years I worked in Uptown, and like a lot of my research pivoted to more local things and like more so like, um, research on Argyle. You know, like through the lens of urban planning it’s like cultural preservation of a community. You know, I saw that, you know, there’s a lot of gentrification happening. We’re right next to the lake. You know, property values are increased like―and I remember just coming back here and it’s just like this is–doesn’t feel like Argyle of my youth. You know, like I said earlier, like it just felt busy. People came here all the time. And it just didn’t feel that, and there was a lot of closures, a lot of, you know, different things. So, eventually, you know, like I got involved and did a lot of different things, post-graduation, for Argyle. And that’s what like really made me want to stay in this community. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:49.000 I saw a pattern, when you were talking just now, that you wanted to go back to Vietnam, and also your dad did, too, at some point. (Tran coughs) But neither it―I’m assuming your dad never went back to live. 00:41:49.000 --> 00:44:12.000 To live, no. But he did, when I lived there, he came to visit. Um, but he never―he even, yeah, growing up like even his later years, he always said like “I want return and live there.” But it never happened, you know. I still have a desire to like, you know, go back to Vietnam and like, maybe not live forever, because I don’t think there’s like―I mean this idea of impermanence is probably the only permanent thing. Like I would like to return to Vietnam and live again. I think it’s a different―I think for Vietnamese Americans to return to Vietnam and like live there, it’s a–it’s a–it’s a different experience in understanding your identity as just a Vietnamese American. Like it’s like–it’s–it’s in touch with your culture. But that culture has also progressed, you know? Like I think like the idea of―And there’s so many different waves of like immigration, of like refugees in the ‘90s. Up until now, there’s still Vietnamese people coming here. So, this idea of the Vietnamese American experience is always changing and always fluid. But the ones that, I think that first wave of people, like held on to a–a culture of Vietnam that is, in many ways, no longer, um, present in Vietnam today. It’s been forty, fifty years. That culture evolves and changes. So, like the idea of like going there, it’s like experiencing something new but familiar, you know, and that’s, like, exciting. But also, like realizing “Hey, I’m not–this is–I’m not from here, and I’m not―” Like I think for me it’s no longer the seeking out affirmation of identity but just living and learning and realizing that I–I have many friendships with like Vietnamese people in Vietnam and like realizing like we are―we had different lived experiences. But there is that–that common sort of like Vietnamese culture that always exists that is a bond, you know. So, I feel like that like going back was more about like learning and sustaining friendships and embracing something new. 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:36.000 Thank you. Um, you mentioned a common thread. This is a question I ask myself a lot as someone who is still trying to figure out the identity piece of myself. Like what, in your mind, what are those threads that make us–that make us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:43.000 What makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000 That’s a hard question, I know. 00:44:44.000 --> 00:48:27.000 Yeah, that’s really hard. Um, yeah. Man. Well, I know for one, right? Like regardless of like whatever Vietnamese American experience there may be, or Vietnamese experience, like this is like cliché and lame, I think. But like literally like the easiest thing to say is food, right? I mean–I’ve think that transcends the Vietnamese culture too. I think like you―the easiest way to connect and relate to someone is over a meal, right? Like it’s–it is that. Um, and that’s the thing. Like everywhere I go in the U.S. or even the world, I always go to like Little Saigon or Viet Town or whatever it is. I remember in Prague, like I sought out like the Vietnamese area. So, it’s like always like I don’t know if it’s like food, but maybe that’s just like a metaphor for something larger, like the seeking of–of home, of–of ― And that’s the weird thing. Like I’m comfortable in my own skin yet you go and you seek a diaspora of your culture as if it’s―you’re missing something, you know? But, or maybe it’s just familiarity, I don’t know. It’s always like I want like a bowl of pho or a bánh mì (banh mi, a sandwich) or even something beyond, you know, those two common dishes like everywhere you go. So, I think food is like something that really kind of connects people. But like also maybe it’s that–that thing I’m alluding to like searching, even though you may be confident of your identity, it’s― I don’t know if we’re lost, you know? Especially if people within that like the refugee diaspora. Like you could be comfortable and get to a point of like “I am Vietnamese American.” But maybe there’s always something you’re searching for, um, that’s like subconscious. I don’t know. And I think that’s―and I do see that a little bit with like the people I work with on this block, right? Even with my–my business partner. It’s like “Hey, we want to create cultural events and things.” But, you know, because like the–the fear, the reason why I stayed here was like, it’s almost the fear of, like, erasure. Right. It’s like the fear of like―I mean you see half this block. It’s like, empty. So, it’s like if once this is erased, if it is, maybe part of your identity is gone too. I don’t know. I think I’m going on a tangent, but I― Yeah. Because like I–even though like, you know, a place doesn’t officially make who you are but those like lived experiences in the space, the public realm, the physical realm, it’s strong. Like there is like ― right? It evokes memories and memories is like what like you asked me earlier, like if― I’m going to be real sad when Double Happiness closes. Because that―I don’t know if the kids will take over. Like those are like—and memories fade. So, it’s like if this–if this place is like―and I think that’s why cultural preservation and, like, efforts to kind of sustain cultural corridors is vital, because place matters and it–it’s part of your identity. And I think like yeah, wherever I go it’s like finding that slice of home, you know. Yeah. I don’t know. 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:34.000 Yeah. I think I know what you’re talking about. Like my, um―actually this is your interview. We’ll talk― 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:37.000 Oh no. Go ahead. I do want to hear. 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000 You do? Okay. So, I was born in the Chicago suburbs. 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.000 Oh, okay. 00:48:41.000 --> 00:49:17.000 And so my–my parents lived in the suburbs, and my–my bà ngoại (ba ngoai) lived with them. And so, she always wanted to come here to Argyle to go grocery shopping. I have no memory of that because I was like four when we left,to go to San Diego. But when I came back, knowing that she had been here just felt like a connection to her, you know? (starts to cry) Yeah, it just felt–I’ve just felt like a connection to her, even though I had never seen her on this block or, anything like I was there with her, so― 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000 Yeah. That’s the power of place, and knowing, right? 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000 Yeah. Our identity is built on place. It really is. I mean this whole project is–is about place. 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.000 Yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.000 Vietnamese–Vietnam and America. So, yeah. I get you. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.000 Thanks for sharing that. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:50:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I (pause) definitely have follow-up questions but I don’t know where to go with them. You mentioned that Vietnamese Americans are a monolith. I mean, not a monolith, sorry. (both chuckle) So, and we talked about like what’s a common thread, which is really hard to answer. But thank you for doing a good job with that. Um, how do you find yourself different from other Vietnamese Americans? And I don’t mean better or worse. Just different. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:52:48.000 No, I think there are a lot of differences. I think like, you know, like I’ve–I have a lot of Vietnamese American friends that lived in Vietnam with me, right? So, we–and we had that shared experience of like Việt Kiều (Viet Kieu, overseas Vietnamese, or the Vietnamese diaspora) living in Vietnam. But we were different as well. Like they grew up in larger diasporas of Vietnamese community, like SoCal or Orange County, you know. And I think like being—the difference might be—number one—like you know, language. The embracing of like what is considered the dominant idea of Vietnamese American culture. Yeah, I feel like—dang, this is hard to explain. Like the difference lies in (sighs)—See the thi–, the idea is like, “what is Vietnamese?” To me it’s like–it’s hard to even like grasp, right? Like and it’s like almost like if you start identifying things it becomes like oh this stereotypical thing. Um, but I don’t know. There’s a guy on Instagram, Sup Dawk. He always like shows like Chú Hài (Chu Hai), like those like—That’s like real Vietnamese, like karaoke, you know. Those are like, you know, it’s kind of stereotypical Vietnamese. Like I feel like, I mean, if–if you want to point to something like, I mean, yeah, you see it in Vietnam all over. And like Vietnamese American communities like nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing), you know. In a way, those represent community in a way, right? I think like–I think the heart of it is like is collectivism of shared experience and shared identity. And where I think I differ oftentimes and that–that’s why I think, even today like working in this community like the difference it boils down to like this idea of like–of more individualistic kind of outlook on life. Even though I’m part of a community and I engage in community, but like there are certain boundaries that I draw within my own identity. And I think that’s not a very “Vietnamese” thing, I would say. I think that’s, I think, more of a western concept. Um, so I mean I don’t even know where I’m getting at, maybe like the idea of a more collective experience versus a more kind of insular approach to life and straddling those two kind of thoughts. 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.000 Tell me more about having boundaries around your identity. 00:52:53.000 --> 00:54:02.000 You know, like just like simple things like I’m on the block I used to work at—Southeast Asia Center—as a case worker, or a social service case worker. So, I had a lot of Vietnamese clients, like of many generations. And like the other day I ran into one of my clients. He is an older gentleman, like former Viet–South Vietnam vet. (clears throat) And he knows I used to work for the—like just boundaries like asking like “Oh, oh, you–you make more better money now” type of like “Oh, you look like fatter now.” It’s like that ease of that generation and how I—because I may be born here and have inherited, you know, different cultural learnings, that’s a little weird to me. And like “No. I’m not going to tell you how much I make.” And like it’s like, you know, so, it’s like kind of like navigating that, those like minor hiccups or maybe conflicts on a daily–or when you interact with like different generations. 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.000 Okay. 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:41.000 The expectation of what it is to be Vietnamese or you lose your roots, you know. It’s like I think a certain generation is going to say “Oh, you mat goc,” or you—all that stuff. But like have we really? Like have we lost our roots? Maybe we just have a different identity, you know, rather than like having this one monolith mold of what it is to be Vietnamese. I think it’s—for any ident–for any culture, any race. Like there’s no one. That’s–I think that’s dangerous, right? But yeah. I don’t know if that answers the question. 00:54:41.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Yeah. It absolutely did. Thank you. How do—This is going to be another tough one. I’m sorry. How do people in the Vietnamese American community see you? 00:55:02.000 --> 00:56:10.000 I don’t know how they see me. I can–I feel like I have a perception of how they perceive me. I don’t fully know, right? I don’t think like we can fully know how they see you. I think it varies between like what are, you know, the generations and the subcultures of Vietnamese people. I think for the peop–like the younger generation here and then especially with the work like kind of like activating space and doing like creative projects I think like, not only the Vietnamese American youth or people in my generation but like, you know, other Asian Americans, look at like me and my business partner who have HAIBAYÔ (HAIBAYO) as like kind of, you know, creative—maintaining not only Vietnamese culture but like Vietnamese American culture and treating experiences that are lived, not of the past but like it’s currently going on. But, wait. The question was, how do you think people view you, right? 00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000 Mm-hmm. 00:56:11.000 --> 00:59:25.000 I really don’t know. Like I think like there’s a sense of—when I see the older generation of people—it varies. Like I think there’s some people—My perception, and maybe it’s clouded of, you know, oftentimes like self-doubt and like my own insecurities of things, anxiety, whatever. I might feel like “Oh, they’re like—maybe they think I’m not Vietnamese enough.” You know, maybe they like, you know, I’m not doing the same things they’re doing. You know, I’m not like—And even you often don’t see many like—I think in the Vietnamese diaspora of the older generation of success of a younger person is like, right, you–you’ve heard that “oh, if you’re a doctor or lawyer…like how are you going to make money?” Like I haven’t followed that path and like none of my cousins and like a lot of people—and that’s the thing too. Like a lot of Vietnamese Americans that I connect with don’t follow that path. So, I think like even within —there’s a divide between like the people that don’t follow that trajectory of like just making money and more people who follow more creative pathways to like their own career. I think I resonate more with that subculture anyway. So, like I’m surrounded by those people and a lot of them are Vietnamese American. So, like with those people like I feel like there’s just common understanding because like we— But sometimes when I’m in circles where there’s like “Hey, I’m like doctor, accountant…” like there’s not much of a connect beyond the surface level things, right? Oh like food, small talk, things like that. But I think it’s like, that’s the difference within this generation. But yeah. With an older generation of Vietnamese American, like I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I hear compliments. Sometimes I–I hear people say like “You, you’re not even Viet—” like, you know. So, it varies. But what I—my perception it’s–it’s a whole gamut of like how people view you. And you can’t control that ultimately, you know. I can’t control if they view me that way and–and is it even worth it to–to make me lose sleep. Sometimes, you know, those who matter don’t mind and those who mind don’t matter, I guess. But, yeah, you can’t—for me, I don’t really—yeah, I don’t know. Like I used to like really care about that in terms of like—or not care, but like it would eat me up. Like yeah, like, fuck, am I Vietnamese enough for this person? But like everyone has a different opinion. It’s like a bowl of pho. What’s good pho? You know? I recently made like more northern pho and gave it to southern people. They hate it! Because it’s too salty. It’s— pho is supposed to be sweet for southerners, you know? So, it’s a challenge, yeah. Like I used to let it like really eat–eat away at me but at this point like you can only live your most authentic self, whatever that may be. Yeah. 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:35.000 What about your parents? Did they ever try to instill some sense of what–what you should be as a person or as a Vietnamese person? 00:59:35.000 --> 01:01:38.000 Yeah. I think like number one where it was like language, I would say. Um, and that—my Vietnamese has like only gotten better because I lived in Vietnam and like I worked in community. But like—and also I made an effort to try to practice it more. But like I didn’t really—like in my teen years, I never even really spoke Vietnamese. And like at that age I never would engage with people. Like my people our age, like I would just speak English. I still speak English with my cousins, you know? Um, but yeah. There was always that kind of language aspect. Um, just like weird customs—not weird but it’s like customs that could be conflicting with like, you know, things here. I don’t know. But it—I don’t feel like—I think both my sister and I were—we pushed the envelope. Like we challenged them a lot in terms of like— surprisingly, they were old, of a older generation. Like the gap between my father and me is like 50 years and then my mom is like in her 70s. So, they’re like a little older than, you know, some other Vietnamese folks. So, I think as someone of that generation to come here, like you would imagine them being extremely traditional. And they–they in some ways they are. But I think like that relationship and of realizing too like “Hey.” I don’t know. I’ve never talked to them about this. But maybe like they’ve accepted like “Hey, this is like who my–who my kids are.” And like you can instill and try to push for certain preserv–preservation of certain cultural customs here and there. But also realizing that maybe, yeah, maybe like you can’t fully pass everything down —I think. I mean, yeah. That’s how I feel. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:48.000 Okay. Last question on this topic. How do you see yourself? 01:01:48.000 --> 01:03:57.000 How do I see myself? I guess in the realm of identity, of culture, if we’re talking about Vietnamese American, yeah, I–I feel like I’m one of many identities of what Vietnamese American is, and it’s always evolving. I see myself as— I don’t like to say like certain things, like about—you know, like toot my own horn but like I feel like I am becoming one of the community leaders of this area. I take like—you know, I’m honored to do that, to be one of many who are, you know, stepping up in this second generation and trying to preserve culture but also like creating new and fresh things that tie to a culture. So, like, yeah. I view myself as someone who cares about, you know, this–this specific community of Argyle and the Vietnamese community here in Chicago. Because it’s not big. It’s not, you know? And it ties back to self, of home. Like how can I sustain it so that part of me is not gone? Um, but yeah. I don’t know. Like I don’t–I don’t really think about—or I haven’t for a long time thought about—what it means as my identity of Vietnamese American. I haven’t—it’s been a while actually. I think I would say that I’m more confident in–in the cultural, whatever those cultural components that I–that I hold onto and that I value. I’m more confident in that now than I was like 20 years ago. Um, but yeah. I don’t—That’s–that’s a hard question. (starts to chuckle, and Ho joins in) 01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:03.000 That’s good that you haven’t really thought about it. In my mind, that’s —it sounds like you found peace then within yourself. 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:16.000 Yeah. I think––yeah, I do feel that I’m at more at peace in terms of that–that realm of identity than I was before. 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:25.000 Um, so you mentioned that you, everywhere you go, you look for Little Saigon or whatever, wherever the diaspora is. 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:26.000 Yeah. 01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:42.000 So, we’re talking about place now. Um, what are some–what are some places, what are some cities where–where the–where you find that the community is really interesting or exceptional in some way? 01:04:42.000 --> 01:08:37.000 Yeah. Let me think. Okay. I have to think back at all those Little Saigons I’ve been to. Well, I mean the obvious is probably like foodwise and like just the level of like claiming space and calling the space home. I feel like the bigger areas where there’s more Vietnamese people, there’s just so much diversity and food experience that you can get, right? I’ve been at L.A. a few times but I always like go and visit my friends that live down there and like, it feels like in a way —and that’s why I think Little Saigons are created. It’s like Vietnam in many ways or whatever that Vietnam may be. So, it’s like a sense of ease. So, like San Jose is huge too. I’ve been there a few times. But I think like the most–the ones that stand out in my mind and that what’s most interesting actually might be probably like eastern Europe because it’s a different diaspora. And it’s a different migration pattern than the Little Saigon or, you know, Saigon whatever. Because there I don’t think they don’t call it Little Saigon. It’s more the northern folk that went to the former eastern bloc and lived there and created community there. So, it’s like a completely different experience. But there’s still like this idea–like I remember like in Budapest too when I was living there. Like I sought out Vietnamese people. And it was a completely different identity than my own, right, than my parents. They fought –these are people that I guess in a way won the war, right? They’re not the ones that fled because of like the collapse of Saigon. They went for economic opportunity or they were part of like the communist government back then or as diplomats. But they built their community there. So, I think those are interesting. Like it–it doesn’t resonate or there’s no strong tie to my own experience and my family’s experience. But there is still like this weird human connection of being Vietnamese. Even the politically—it’s so different, right? And I remember like hung out with like a bunch of like, you know, northern Vietnamese people. This was after I studied abroad in Vietnam, too. So, in a way I was more open to that, you know? But I–I think like east, like Czech Republic, like Prague, was interesting. Budapest’s Vietnamese community was interesting. But I also like find Paris really interesting, because that’s like a lot of Vietnamese people there are like—probably went there even before ’75, you know. So, it’s like this understanding of identity of are they more French or are they more—? and like the food is different, you know. So, I found that to be the historical layers of–of migration and also identity within those communities differ. But there’s always this wanting to go there and eating the food and learning about the Vietnamese community despite all of that. I mean, yeah. Those are—I’m trying to—there’s no–there’s—I was in Mexico recently but there’s no Vietnamese town. But I went to Chinatown though which is interesting. But yeah. I would really be interested in seeing more Viet towns. I mean I think mostly it’s in the U.S., you know, like the places where people went. But eastern Europe was interesting. 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:59.000 Um, hmm. Okay. Um, who are some of the community leaders around here that people should know about. And actually, I wanted to talk about Jenny Pham and how–how did you two initially meet? 01:08:59.000 --> 01:14:02.000 Our parents are friends. So, they knew each other. So, my dad—So, there’s like a whole group of people who graduated from this program in Da Lat. It’s like a college in Da Lat, Vietnam. It’s called Chính trị, Kinh doanh (Chinh tri, Kinh doanh), so it’s like political and business major at Da Lat University. So, my dad —that group kind of met because they all are like alumni. (coughs) And her mom—sorry, excuse me—her mom was an alumni. My father was an alumni. (sniffles) And also there was another gentleman. His name is Tâm. Nguyễn Văn Tâm (Nguyen Van Tam). He is a community leader here. He actually works with me as an Ambassador Program. But he worked for many, many years at Vietnamese Association of Illinois. And now he’s at CMAA. But he’s like in his 80s. So, he’s like been a community leader consistently for the last–since he’s come here since the early 80s. But yeah. Like me and Jennifer, our parents know each other through that circle. We used to play piano together. There was a Vietnamese lady from Hue. Her name was like Cô Lạc Nhân (Co Lac Nhan). And she lived, surprisingly funny, on Mozart Avenue. And she had like 50 Vietnamese students, piano students. So, like through that too, like there was that community. So, I played piano with her and her brother. And she was like part of Viet — like just the same circle of growing up. But she’s a little older than me. So. then I hung out more with her brother at the time we were younger. (sniffles) Um, but that’s how I know her. And then we—actually we never really kept in touch. Like we would always know that we’re around. Like I ran into her like in Chicago like a few times here and there. But it wasn’t until like mid-2010s, 2015-16 or whatever where we reconnected. I was actually—I started another organization with a former friend who was also part of this community. She’s Tam’s— Chú Tam’s (Chu Tam’s) daughter. So, she was like, you know, grew up with us and so she’s younger than us a little. But her and I along with another few people actually started Axis Lab. But there was like challenges in working together. Um, just differences on vision. I think they still exist but I don’t know how functional they are. But her and I are co-founders of that. I eventually left. And then Jennifer was part of it but then she left as well. And her and I reconnected. We connected like prior to Axis Lab. Like we invited Jennifer in through that like kind of like that relationship was forged again and that friendship. And then after we both left like we connected. Hey, we wanted to like do something again on Argyle like maybe a year after. And that’s how HAIBAYO initially started. And I think you’ve been to a few—like it was really like more of like, Hey, you know, a lot of what Axis Lab did was really beautiful, right? It was like really curated, well thought out. But sometimes it’s a challenge working with–with pe—you know. Not everyone can work together. Um, but like, yeah. We started HAIBAYO and just kind of wanted to make it like a fun party. But also, that had culture, right? Like there was like food. We always had a food vendor. And we worked with the business on this block. Like at each different event it was always a different food restaurateur. (sniffles) And like I think you–like when you had Lawrence and Argyle you were at one or two of those events. You know, like so like building those networks and curating something that was within the younger or second generation Asian American identity yet also kind of honoring the past. That’s how we, yeah–that’s how we–I reconnected with her. And she–her father I think was like the first Vietnamese business owner on this block. Because this area used to be, prior to the fall of Saigon and a lot of influx of refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, this area used to be more Chinese. So, there was a–I think it was like after the Tong Wars, you know, like with the Chinese Chinatown Tongs. Like Chinatown on the south side is run by like one Tong which is now like more of an association rather than, you know, its checkered past. And then here it’s Hip Sing which has like connections to San Francisco and New York. So, they actually came here first and bought up all the land and buildings. This was like kind of a, what urban planners like to say blighted, right? A blighted area. And people just started coming here after, you know, the war, and it became more southeast Asian and more Vietnamese even though there’s still a lot of Chinese. And a lot of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam came here, as well. So, I don’t even know where I’m getting. But anyhow like I think like, yeah. I forgot where I–what direction I’m going in. 01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:07.000 Um, we were talking about Jenny’s family’s business. 01:14:07.000 --> 01:15:02.000 Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. He was like the first Vietnamese business because it was mostly Chinese businesses, and she is still part of—And that pharmacy (Mini Thương Xá Pharmacy, Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy) is still here. And I think, I don’t want to speak for her. But she does––one thing she tells me, and often, and she does say it and she shares with other people like her–she herself didn’t think she was going to stay here either. But she said that there was a moment in the past where her dad was thinking about retiring and selling this pharmacy, this family pharmacy, to like CVS. And that sparked something in her that brought her back here. And through that and, you know, she has her own journey and her own story which I’m not going to say for her. But that one thing like, through that, I think that allowed us to reconnect. (clears throat and sniffles) 01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:22.000 You’ve talked about this a little bit. But what do you think it is that–that keeps us doing what you were doing. And I guess when I say “us” I mean people like you and–and her. Um, is it obligation? Is it, um, you’ve mentioned fear of erasure? 01:15:22.000 --> 01:19:54.000 I think it’s more like for a lot–I’ll speak independent for me. Like I’ve said in many past interviews with folks that it’s like carrying on the cultural legacy of our parents. And to a certain degree, I still believe that but a lot of this work I think too is for one’s self and for others like us, um, of like a younger generation. Because we can’t move backward. We can only move forward. And you can never forget where you come from either. So like honoring those past histories but also thinking about the now and the challenges that exist now. And yeah. Are we going to exist? We’ll always exist as independently into the future regardless of the spaces here or not. But is that value of like that fear of erasure of–of displacement of like, you know. Like I could just go to a Vietnamese restaurant but like there’s something else about when you–you go to a corridor or a larger community that is your diaspora and you have those connections and you have like—That’s why like Chinatowns, Little Saigons are important, right? And the cultural preservation of these cultural districts is vital because of like—it is identity. It is community and–and it’s okay to have like ethnic enclaves in cities. I don’t—A lot of people say like “Oh, I don’t want to be, you know, labelled as like just living in a Chinatown.” But those are like—it–there’s a beauty in having that space and honoring and carrying on those cultural legacies and also evolving, adapting to what it is that is your identity. I think like we did get a large grant to open up a cultural events space and that’s gonna—It’s not gonna be like—It’s going to be our own experience because our visions and our experience will, you know, will define that space, you know. So, it is–it’s Vietnamese American, and we really want to push like the history of Argyle storytelling and highlighting other people. But yeah, as I think it’s important, right? Especially for this community right now. There’s so many vacancies and like, how do we mobilize now because there’s so many external forces that are going to impact this area in a negative way, right? The–there’s—for years there was this Streetscape project that took two to three years that impacted local businesses. The CTA (Chicago Transit Authority, or in this instance, specifically the “el” or elevated train) is getting fixed right now. You know, obviously like it’s good to have like infrastructure that is ADA accessible. But also a lot of small businesses are hurt. There’s been like nine closures since the pandemic and this train system, or this train construction happened during that time. So, yeah. They’re like—So now is the time of like, how do we connect with other community leaders? And collectively like start envisioning and identifying the challenges and the opportunities and things like that to sustain this cultural legacy of this area. And the good thing is like the governor of this state in 2021 passed a bill saying like certain areas, geographic areas could be culture districts. So, I don’t know what that looks like on a hyperlocal level, but that is a law in the state of Illinois. Um, but I’m very excited about the future. Even though like now is like—I think there’s so much opportunity right now. This district elected the first Vietnamese American politician. He’s a friend of ours, Hoàn Huỳnh (Hoan Huynh). So, we work like with him like being connected to like CMAA, Chinese Mutual Aid Association. They were founded by a Vietnamese Chinese man, refugee, but have evolved and like done a lot of different really cool, innovative things for this area. So, just having like—And then there’s a–the alderperson is a Filipina–queer Filipina American woman that, you know— How do we kind of convene and really think about strategically carrying on this—or preserving this—culture in this district. Um, I think it’s–it’s critical, you know? 01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:56.000 So, you plan to stick around for a while and be part of the—. 01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:59.000 Yeah. I have. I plan to. 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:11.000 That’s great. What is the definition of cultural district? Like how did they define it when they—or–or do you know? 01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:12.000 No. I need to look up that. 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:25.000 Okay. (both laugh). No worries. Um, okay. So, I–so you’ve been–you’ve been back–you’ve been to Vietnam many times, it sounds like. 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:26.000 No. I’ve only been there twice, actually. 01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:28.000 Oh really! 01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:41.000 Yeah. But, um, the first time was like study abroad. Then I went before and stayed after a little just to travel. So, that was like eight months or so, six–seven months. And then I moved back for like three years. 01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:42.000 Okay. 01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:50.000 But that was like twenty-eight to twenty-eleven, 2008 to 2011. So, I actually haven’t been back to Vietnam in thirteen years, or twelve years at this point. 01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:52.000 Okay. 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:53.000 Um, and it’s changed probably drastically. 01:20:53.000 --> 01:20:54.000 I’m sure. 01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:55.000 Yeah. 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:58.000 Yeah. Um, how are you doing on like energy right now? 01:20:58.000 --> 01:20:59.000 Oh, I’m good. 01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:00.000 You’re good? 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:01.000 Yeah. 01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:03.000 What time is it? What time is it? 01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:04.000 12:16. 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:20.000 Okay. Cool. Um, so I want to–I want to ask like how— I’m sure every time you go–both times you’ve gone to Vietnam, you’ve come back changed in some way, affected in some way. 01:21:20.000 --> 01:21:21.000 Yeah, I would say so. 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:24.000 Can you–can you talk a bit about–about that? 01:21:24.000 --> 01:22:43.000 Yeah. I think the first time I went was— The reason why I went was like, you know, it tied to like that–the idea of identity. Um, also it was beyond just identity, right? Like for me, to go to Vietnam was also to–to learn about my dad’s—like it–it was not intentional. But I–what happened when I was there is that I met his family. (sniffles) You know, I met his brother. I met his older sister, and I met his entire family that he—really I never knew about in my entire life. And like to forge those relationships—it was like odd at first because like I didn’t know them. But they were so generous and close, right? Um, or o–being open to like this level of closeness. So, I found that really, for me, like really heartwarming to have this–this family in this faraway space that I’ve never met and like forging those relationships and creating lived experiences with them. So, that was like a very personal like family thing that I was buil–was able to build. Um, but yeah. I think like — Could you repeat the question one more time? 01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:47.000 Yeah. How did your trips there affect you? 01:22:47.000 --> 01:27:31.000 Oh, okay. Um, so yeah. On a personal level—family, it affected me that way. Identity-wise, it really, really like—There was a lot of things that I realized about my identity that I wasn’t like—I was searching like, am I Vietnamese, right? And I think like that became clearer—is that you could still embrace certain cultural customs and traditions and still be whatever you are. So, I think I–it–those years in Vietnam allowed me see like hey, you know, there are certain instances that I experienced that how I am, like a little more western. Um, and that–and I’m fine with that. So, like it solidified my own identity, as being like Vietnamese American, whatever that may mean. But also I think career-wise it really—like I worked in like different realms of like non-profit and like non-governmental in Vietnam. Um, and I think that kind of really solidified like my passion for working with community and building something with others. I saw a lot of poverty. I’ve seen things that like I never thought I would see, you know? Like going into the very rural areas and seeing poverty and lack of access and lack of resource was like eye-opening. I remember like driving up to the mountains in Da Nang and we were working with a family who the father was a south Vietnamese—he fought for the south. And his two sons who are like twenty—They were older than me at the time. Like I think I was like in my twenties. But they were like approaching thirty. They were like two brothers and they had like Agent Orange. And like because of his alliances with the south Vietnamese like they get nothing from the government. So, to see that this like completely different trajectory of like what it is to be Vietnamese from this place of war. Also like, you know, it humbled me, my–like myself in terms of how lucky I am to exist where I exist today. Because like I could have been completely different. And to see that in Vietnam, especially then my second time around, that’s where I worked. Like I worked with street youth. I worked—like it was things that you, living here I never thought. I mean there’s poverty here, right? There’s so many issues that exist in this country, with like any country. But like, yeah, that was—that impacted me in terms of like wanting to follow a certain path that is, you know, not about money. Because money doesn’t ultimately matter, you know, when— And also another thing I learned too is like, you know, despite—and this—I don’t like saying this. But there is a sense of like this human connection. In Vietnamese, they say like—and that’s where it’s interesting when I go back and talk about like this idea of like more individualistic and which I think there are the certain boundaries that I draw for myself and my identity. But like a lot of it too, like what I really found beautiful about Vietnam like they say like, “sống với tình cảm (song voi tinh cam),” like to live with like, you know, tinh cam, I think that means like–like emotion or human connection or something. And I think that’s very real, and I experienced in Vietnam. You can become friends with someone that you’re just sitting outside and having a coffee. I became friends with people because of that openness. And you learn about that person, and you forge whatever relationship you want to forge with them. And I do feel like I miss that especially when I came back to the states. Like I missed that human connection, you know. I felt very alienated here. And then, you know, over time now I don’t feel that. I feel like those kind of cultural, collective community bonds that exist within the Vietnamese culture happens here, right? Like it’s—despite like how much that I don’t know how people look at me, but like interacting with them and having that sense of community is like, it–in many w–yeah, it makes you feel part of something, you know. To feel accepted and to feel, yeah, to be part of something is important. So I think like those are the takeaways that I’ve—the key ones for me in my life from my experience in Vietnam, I would say. 01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:58.000 That’s great. Yeah. I feel like when I–when I came here, the community was very open and welcoming. So, I think that you and the people here have everything to do with that, that just sharing that openness. So, I definitely see that. Are there any questions about yourself, your identity that you’re still asking? 01:27:58.000 --> 01:29:09.000 Mmm. I don’t think so. I think I’m—I don’t question it. What I realize is that, yeah, like my identity will evolve to s—you know, like, and that’s the evolution of who we are is based off of different types of experiences. Like I don’t know like where we’ll be and how I’ll feel about myself and my identity of being Vietnamese American in a year or two years from now if, you know, when we open up space. There’s more—I don’t know, like, what I’ll be then. So, I think like it’s not more about questioning but it’s more about curiosity and being open to like letting life impact you. You have to take the good and the bad, I guess, and how that will change you and who you are. Yeah, because I feel like there’s going to be really great things for this community if we work together collect— (at this point, his phone rings) oh. 01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:10.000 Is that the alarm? 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. If we work together and yeah, you–we change, you know. Like once you’re pushed onto like a larger stage of this community and building community, you embrace that change and you embrace that evolved identity of yourself. I don’t know. (laughs) 01:29:32.000 --> 01:29:53.000 No, that’s great. Thank you. I have two more questions. I know we’re super low on time. So, I’ll just ask them real quick. Um, what do you—so, there’s a–there’s a very contentious, often contentious relationship between the Black community and the Asian American community. 01:29:53.000 --> 01:29:55.000 Yeah. 01:29:55.000 --> 01:29:58.000 And I wanted to get your thoughts on that. 01:29:58.000 --> 01:34:05.000 Yeah. I mean I—you know when especially—that there is, right? I remember when a lot of that—it was a few years ago—I mean that’s still—I mean these issues happen today. I believe that, you know, there is a–an entire distrust and a gap or a lack of understanding between the Black and Asian community. And I think a lot of it, from the Asian perspective, is perpetuated within—I don’t know if it’s racism. I’ve seen it in Vietnam in the sense where oftentimes like this idea and this larger kind of idea of color, colorism, influences and–and–and makes way into someone’s mind of value of the human, right? Like in Vietnam if you work in the fields, you’re darker and you’re poor. And I think a lot of that has influenced certain people and like this cultural understanding of colorism of class and human worth which is—when you assess it, I mean, it’s fucked up. I think like—and also like the struggle of the Black community here it’s—for me, as an Asian American and Vietnamese American as much as there’s been trauma and hardship from our diaspora, there’s—like to be enslaved by white people for 400+ years and to suddenly be expected to—and that have no resources and still feel the racism, like to me I think that is atr–outrageous. And I think there needs to be more understanding from—like for us, like especially if our parents and the older generation hold onto these ideas of what they view as certain, you know, negative stereotypes of Black people, it’s our responsibility, if we don’t believe that, you break those barriers and talk to our parents, um, and talk to like those–the elders. Because it’s not okay. Like I think we can’t sit here and talk about like our trauma and our struggles and hope that the larger dominant racist society accepts us without doing the same to other communities of color. And there are similar threads but it’s incomparable in terms of like what Black people have experienced in this country versus like Vietnamese people. And I don’t want to play “oppression Olympics” but that is true, right? Like Vietnamese people weren’t slave–enslaved for 400 years here. Yeah, we were forced from our land politically, but we weren’t stripped from our land and viewed as not human. So, I think like it’s important for our generation and I think a lot of younger generations are—who live here and like, you know, when you live in America you’re embraced and you’re surrounded by other cultures and you learn and you expand and you grow. I think that’s critical in terms of like this idea of like, you know, the—of justice and equity. Um, a lot of younger generations even like after like Gen Z Asian Americans are way more open-minded than previous generations. But it’s–it’s going to take a lot of collective effort. But it does start with yourself and really challenging your beliefs. A lot of—I’ve talked to like other Asian Americans who don’t—like they just inherit this racist ideology from their parents, and they view Black people this way or this or that way. It’s like, yeah, you have to—you know, you have conversations, and you try to critically analyze why they think the why they do. And sometimes they just don’t care and that’s—but it does start with conversation and challenging those really kind of toxic, deadly beliefs. 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:09.000 You mentioned having conversations with elders. Have you been able to do that? 01:34:09.000 --> 01:35:28.000 Yeah. Actually like a few years ago, I sent an email to like, my whole family, like all the elders about like Asians and like how—and Black Lives Matter. (sniffles) And there’s some people that didn’t respond because I think they probably hold on to those—I don’t know. But that–there’s family members that—I’m lucky enough that most of my family members actually are pretty liberal even in that generation. But there’s some that are, you know, that voted for Trump and that have consistently voted not in their own interests unless it’s just about money. I don’t know. But yeah. Like I sent an email and my father like wrote a whole thing and shared stuff like about Black Lives Matter. So, like that was like really—like I think I’m lucky because my mom and my dad like—my dad was an educator, I would say. Like that’s where I think he views himself even though he has like done different things. And my mom has been like a case–like a social worker working with youth and tons of immigrant families from like all over the world. So, like they inherited a lot more love for humanity and understanding and breaking down those barriers. And I think my sister and I inherited that, you know. 01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:43.000 That’s great. That’s awesome. Um, okay. So, I want to ask what’s next for you. But also, since we’re running low on time also if there’s anything else that you want to say. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:36:52.000 Mmm, what’s next for me? I think this is a new beginning. Um, not a new beginning because I’m–I think like there’s so many new doors opening not only for me but like for me as an individual that’s part of this community, this Vietnamese American community in Chicago. I think there’s so many exciting—I mean there’s going to be a lot of work and a lot of challenges. But I think the pathways to like really –I wouldn’t say elevate but like really solidifying and making this community stronger is–is endless and boundless. So, I’m excited about that and I think that’s my role in–as one segment of the–the larger collective and that is exciting. So, and that’s I think next steps. Um, (coughs) do I want to say anything else? Mmm… 01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:57.000 It could also be, um, anything about your parents you want to share. 01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:58.000 Oh, okay. 01:36:58.000 --> 01:36:59.000 I mean anything— 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:01.000 Oh. It could be anything. 01:37:01.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Oh, yeah, anything at all. Um, but if you wanted to like share a memory that maybe your dad told you about or something just so that it’s stated so that when you’re gone one day, it’ll be— 01:37:12.000 --> 01:38:18.000 I think like I was—this–earlier this year, I was faced with something very scary. I don’t know if I really mentioned it earlier in this interview. But there is this like emotional disconnect with my parents. Like even though I love them, there’s—it’s a challenge for me to like share how fully I feel. And like my father was actually like struck by a vehicle in January. And like the police came and said—I woke up to my mom crying. Like we thought he died. So, like I think like it’s important—it is a challenge and there’s inherited trauma of–of–of all of us, of Vietnamese American. Our parents come from war. Our parents come from things that we can’t even imagine. And there is things that—I’m not saying that inherent trauma is right, the way they raised us. They were trying to figure out their own way. So, like it was eye opening to me that—to see that my dad could have died in the short time I have left with him. It’s too—Oh man. I feel like I’m going to cry. 01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:23.000 That’s okay. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:39:22.000 It’s like (sighs) yeah, like really—as hard as it may be, like try to understand your parents and like break down those barriers before it’s too late. Because I’m lucky that he’s still alive and my mom’s still here. But I don’t want to have regrets, you know. And I understand like it’s—we all have—like I feel like there’s the way I was raised, it’s–it’s inherited that they contributed to like mental health and like end of the—like there’s something like once you’re gone, you’re gone. And if you don’t say what you need to say or reconcile what you need to reconcile, you’ll never have a chance. So, I think like I’m trying to figure that out and work on that. Because like that was–that was hard. And it’s like still like a path towards healing right now. But yeah. I want to just end at that. 01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:36.000 Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you for taking the time to sit down with me and chat with me. This–this project is–um, a big part of it is–is for a path towards healing for our generation. 01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:37.000 Yeah. 01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:41.000 Because we do have a whole lot of inherited trauma that we’ve been given. So— 01:39:41.000 --> 00:00:00.000 No, thank you for the opportunity to, you know, share and just speak. 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Dublin Core
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Title
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Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally.
Identifier
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SC027-107
Date
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2023-04-25
Format
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video
Creator
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Hac Tran
Contributor
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Jennifer Ho
Subject
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage
Coverage
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Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a>
Rights Holder
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Hac Tran
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees