5 10 91 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Glen Brodowsky OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Brodowsky, Glen. Interview June 14th, 2024. SC027-090 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm CSUSM ; marketing department ; intercultural marketing ; Alexander Gonzalez, Karen Haynes, Ellen Neufeldt ; Craven Hall/Administrative Building ; Jewish Faculty and Staff Association ; cross-cultural marketing ; Faculty Senate Glen Brodowsky Sean Visintainer Sound BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2a4f9d867903cbe2aba28d8139361fc2.m4a Other audio English 0 Intorduction Oral history interview of Dr. Glen Brodowsky, June 14th, 2024, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 33 Background and Education Dr. Brodowsky discusses how his educational background including his fluency in Mandarin and how he found himself working in higher education. Chinese studies ; Higher education ; Marketing ; CSUSM ; University of Buffalo 0 203 First Impressions of Cal State San Marcos Brodowsky talks about his first impressions of CSUSM during his interview process. The campus was built on an old poultry farm and Hollandia dairy was nearby so the campus felt very rural. Prohoroff Poultry farm ; CSUSM ; Campus architecture 0 637 Designing Cal State San Marcos' Expansion Brodowsky discusses his work on the design committee for expanding CSUSM. CSUSM ; Markstein Hall ; Construction ; design ; architecture 0 1269 How CSUSM Differed from other Colleges Brodowsky talks about how Cal State San Marcos' culture and attitude towards faculty participation differed from some other, older and well established colleges. Faculty participation ; Committees ; education ; Marketing 0 1769 Changing Policies at CSUSM Brodowsky discusses his efforts at changing policies at Cal State San Marcos and the effects that those changes had on the school. Policy ; education ; CSUSM ; standards 0 2110 Living on Campus Brodowsky talks about his time living in the dorms at CSUSM while he was a full professor. Dorm life ; education ; student life ; CSUSM 0 2328 Jewish Associations on Campus Brodowsky talks about his involvement with the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association as well as other Jewish association on campus. Chabad ; Hillel ; Jewish Faculty Association ; Religion ; Outreach 0 2679 Navigating New University Administrations Brodowsky explains his thoughts on working with different University Presidents over the course of his career at CSUSM and how he navigated professional relationships with administrations, faculty, and staff. University Presidents ; Alex Gonzalex ; Karen Haynes ; Ellen Neufeldt 0 3424 Teaching Internationally Brodowsky discusses his time teaching internationally in Copenhagen, Ecuador, Shanghai, and Taiwan. Fulbright ; international teaching ; Ecuador ; Copenhagen ; Shanghai ; Taiwan 0 3919 Cross-cultural Marketing and Research Interests Brodowsky talks about his research interests in international marketing as well as his thought on how to make products successful in different cultures. Taiwan ; China ; United States ; Marketing ; Internationality 0 4912 Teaching is Performing Brodowsky discusses his career as a teacher and how he felt that teaching was his chance to express himself as a performer to get students interested in Marketing. education ; Marketing ; acting 0 Oral history Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:04.794 --> 00:00:17.635 This is Sean Visintainer with California State University San Marcos. Today is June 14th, 2024, and I'm interviewing Dr. Glen Brodowsky, professor of Marketing. Dr. Brodowsky, thank you for joining us today. 00:00:17.635 --> 00:00:19.394 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:00:19.394 --> 00:00:33.914 Well, thank you. And, I wanted to start off just talking about the university, kind of the early days when you came to the university and so I wanted to ask you about your journey into higher education, and just how you decided to become a professor. 00:00:33.914 --> 00:02:45.235 Well, I, my original plan was to--I was a,-- majored in Chinese studies and I spoke Mandarin early into my twenties, and I thought I'd have a phenomenal career in international business and then retire into higher education. Well, it didn't work out quite that way. It came out to be the reverse where I had--couldn't find a, a business career. I stayed on and did my PhD at University of Buffalo, and it was a bad market year, and there were no jobs. I didn't get a job. And then I got this phone call in the spring, well, after the market was over from then, the dean of a place called Cal State San Marcos. And I said, are you still on the record? Well, maybe, yeah, maybe. would you be able to come out for an interview next week? Let me check my calendar. Yeah, I think I could come. So I came out here on April 15th, tax day of 1996, desperate for a job but didn't wanna let on. And by the end of the day, I had the job. And so here I was coming and they were apologizing, saying, the salary is not very high. And, I said, listen, you'll pay me to come here and teach, where do I sign? and I was very, very grateful to have that opportunity, 'cause it wasn't guaranteed at that time. And, things happened during my first year. The death of my partner happened the first year. Lots of crazy stuff. Moving across country, finishing a PhD program, defending, taking care of a cancer patient, burying him all within one year. That was my first year here, but the people who were around me, in the college of business, were very, very supportive and were with me throughout that whole process. And you don't forget things like that. I mean, I don't know if I would've been treated that well anywhere else in the world. So, I was very grateful to be here, have been grateful to be here for many years, and I'm grateful that I've had 28 wonderful years here at the Cal State San Marcos. 00:02:45.235 --> 00:02:50.104 Yeah. So, you said that you were kind of headhunted, they found you and contacted you. 00:02:50.104 --> 00:03:20.794 Well, they found me, I guess my advisor sent out a bunch of letters and, and they called me and said, oh, sure. I saying, where's that? I've never heard of it. I mean, it was, who knew? But then I said, near San Diego. And I thought, well, that doesn't sound half bad, you know? 'cause 'cause I was in Buffalo at the time, and it was winter. So, it sounded very attractive. And then, so that was it. And that, the rest is, -- 28 years later here I sit on a very, very different campus than I started out on. 00:03:20.794 --> 00:03:27.715 Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about the campus, but I guess I wanted to ask you first, like, what were your first impressions when you visited for that interview? 00:03:27.715 --> 00:04:20.995 Well, they brought me in the back way of what was then Craven Hall, and now the Administrator Building. They brought me through this blue hallway, through this labyrinth. I didn't know where they were taking me into the bowels of this building. I thought, there were lots of staircases, very few buildings, or three buildings, like 10 staircases. And I thought, what is, this does not look like a college campus. What am I, what am I getting myself into? didn't seem like much, but they had this diorama and say, in 2025, this is what we're gonna look like. And we don't look quite exactly like that. But we've grown certainly to that level. So, but it seemed kind of a bit of a pipe dream at the time because it was so new and lots of dirt and lots of staircases and, and on a windy day, you can tell that we were built on a chicken ranch. 00:04:20.995 --> 00:04:23.274 Yeah. Yeah. How could you tell? 00:04:23.274 --> 00:04:26.444 Well, the wind would, carry a certain . 00:04:26.444 --> 00:04:28.285 So, so the ranch was still in existence? 00:04:28.285 --> 00:04:48.634 Very fresh, very fresh in our minds. Yeah. There was a Hollandia dairy, which was across the freeway. So, this was the country. There was nothing here. There's very, very-- that whole shopping center was--none of the apartments were there, nothing. It was just really very open. 00:04:48.634 --> 00:04:52.605 Yeah. Was how, how big was San Marcos at the time? 00:04:52.605 --> 00:05:19.105 I think it was about 40,000 people at the time. It was very small. I chose to live in San Marcos for the first, I think, until 2003. So seven years. I lived on San Marcos Boulevard. I had an apartment at the Benchmark Apartments, and then I bought my first condor across the street, which is, the ones right next to the Home Depot, which didn't exist when I got here. So, the Home Depot, that is. 00:05:19.105 --> 00:05:21.435 And I'm sure traffic wasn't as bad on San Marcos (inaudible). 00:05:21.435 --> 00:05:41.504 Well, San Marcos was, the only thing that was bad was that, that bridge getting onto the campus was only two lanes. and so it could take a good 20 minutes to get onto and off campus, even though we were small. And then it took several years to build that bridge. So it was always tricky getting onto and off of our campus. 00:05:41.504 --> 00:05:45.365 And where did you start teaching? Like what, what building were you in? 00:05:45.365 --> 00:06:02.845 Well, my office was on the second floor of what was then Craven Hall for 10 years in a windowless office across from the men's room and my first class was in, what is, I guess it's ACD on the second floor. 00:06:02.845 --> 00:06:08.884 Was the, was the College of Business, was it all located? 00:06:08.884 --> 00:06:13.475 We were all located on the second floor of Craven Hall. 00:06:13.475 --> 00:06:19.754 Okay. Interesting. Interesting. So how have you seen the campus change over the years? 00:06:19.754 --> 00:07:28.875 Well, I mean, the first thing that came up was University Hall. Which we apparently had the option on, and we passed on. And, so that came up. And then I remember saying to President Gonzalez, to whom I was a consultant on a few projects, when we built the track and field of the Mangrum track--Mrs. Mangrum, her family did that for us-- He said, we have a track. We look like a real campus now. And I said to him, Alex, build me a library, and then we can talk. Because at that time, the library was also located in Craven Hall. And that was on the third and fourth floors. And it was this black area. It was--this walls were black and there were pipes, and it was weird. We were all in that same building. It's kind of where the Cougar Central used to be the library. And then, I ran into Alex Gonzalez a number of years later at what was the new Ralph's across the way. And we were looking out across the campus, and here was Kellogg Library. And I said, Alex, you made good on the promise. you've done good. You built me a library. Now we're a real campus. 00:07:28.875 --> 00:07:29.274 Yeah. 00:07:29.274 --> 00:07:31.644 I didn't, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. 00:07:31.644 --> 00:08:25.035 And, and really, the whole campus, really center of the campus moved here upon the opening this plaza out here, because we used to be centered at the dome. The dome was the major gathering place in the early years. This was all just, nothing. It was an empty lot. So, you saw this huge migration of the campus towards this, what is now the center of the campus, which is kind of this Kellogg terrace. And, and then later on came, the Student Union and the, the new building for SBSB and the new Science (Hall) too. that all came much later on, but the ca--and now with the housing going down the hill, it's like what used to be the center of campus is like this little outpost up there, which is the dome. Which is where the Bookstore is. But no, you don't see much going on there. 00:08:25.035 --> 00:08:29.584 Yeah. So what was, you said it was kind of the center of campus and activity. What was happening there? 00:08:29.584 --> 00:08:49.553 Well we would have lunch there. We had, we had meetings there, we had events there. the (Academic) Senate used to meet in that building. So that was kind of the building that was, the facility, and now it's kind of, it's just kind of, kind of an appendage. It, it really has lost its centrality to the campus. 00:08:49.553 --> 00:08:57.085 Yeah. Yeah. You also mentioned the University Hall. You mentioned it was passed on, and I was just curious what you meant by that. 00:08:57.085 --> 00:09:20.544 The dean at the time, who was my very, very good friend, who was a mentor of mine, who lives in Chicago as well, she's 85, and she's amazing, was the dean at the time. And she didn't really like what she saw in the plans for the building, how it was set up. So she decided that we would wait for something to come, the next building phase. So we stayed in Craven Hall until 2006. 00:09:20.544 --> 00:09:21.040 Wow. 00:09:21.040 --> 00:10:37.764 So, and we're very pleased with Markstein Hall. I think it's a great facility and, world class in terms of classrooms. I was on the, on the committee that designed the building. So I remember taking the architects around to U Hall (University Hall) and other places saying, see, this classroom, don't do this. don't set it up like this. This does not work. This is too wide and too shallow, or, and then I remember, we had all these vendors sending us chairs, and I was having a butt, testing, lab in the buildings, because I short people and tall people and fat people and thin people trying out all these different chairs to go into the different rooms in Markstein. So, there's things that I could look at that are designed into that building and--said, that was my idea to that. And it was nice. Like, we have these benches that are throughout the second and third floors, along the hallways where the students could actually sit outside the classroom while they're waiting, because when we were in the Administrative Building, there's no place for students to sit. So they'd sit on the floor, it's like, we could put a bench there. It would be kind of a nice thing. Welcoming. 00:10:37.764 --> 00:10:41.595 Yeah. How, how long was that process of, uh. 00:10:41.595 --> 00:10:42.315 The planning. 00:10:42.315 --> 00:10:46.174 The planning, and especially like the involvement of the committee with the architecture? 00:10:46.174 --> 00:11:51.205 I think we started planning probably around 2002, 2003. It was a multi-year plan, and then we planned, the office space and how we'd maximize the number of windows. And if you go into that building, you'll notice that, on--it's actually two buildings. It's a class from one, which is three stories and the office one, which is four. And the hallways are quite wide on one side, but on the office area, it's like you feel like you're inside of a train, there's narrow, narrow passageways. And that was done so that we could maximize square footage for offices and classrooms. The state allocates a certain number of square feet, no matter what you--how you use them. And so, people will sit at the halls, feel very narrow and closed in. And warren like, but that's because we've maximized the number of window offices. So, we just had to create it because you, there, there are mandates on how much space a faculty office can have and how much, classroom space has to be available relative to office space. 00:11:51.205 --> 00:12:03.065 Okay. That's really interesting. And I think it probably explains why a lot of academic buildings look the way that they do. Huh. Very interesting. Thank you. Who was involved on that, committee. 00:12:03.065 --> 00:12:50.965 At the time? This man named Russ Decker and Diane Malone. They were from, Building Planning and Design, BPD, and then the Dean, and Regina Eisenbach was on the committee, and Ben Cherry was on the committee, and a couple of other people. But that's off the top of my head--it was a real fun committee to be on. And one of the arguments is that I really want to-- I, I'm looking at these windows in your door. And I really wanted that in the building because I thought it would be nice for you to look out. And I see that most people cover those, and they don't like them. They feel it's a violation of privacy. But I just thought--I liked that idea. That was one I was shot down on. I'm still, annoyed about that because I really wanted one of those. 00:12:50.965 --> 00:13:00.924 Well, so you ran into, you ran into headwinds there. What were--you mentioned that the seat testing was one of the things that you were involved in. What were some of the other things that you had an impact on the design? 00:13:00.924 --> 00:14:41.485 You know, one of the things I hate in academic buildings, or if you go to other campuses, is students stick things on walls and it ruins the paint, and it just, it looks tacky. So, there, if you go through, Craven Hall you'll see on the doors and along the walls, there are these metal strips that you could stick some-- they just-- and, that's, that was one of those things I requested, so that you could always put signs up and take them down without any tape. And, and you can remove things easily. And also you could--so that they're all tension bars. And that's one of the things that I have, that I requested because I just don't like scotch tape on paint. It's just hard to maintain. One of the things about this campus, and I've been on many campuses in my life, it's remarkably well maintained. It doesn't look tacky. It's not, it, it's aging quite well. it's immaculate. when I bring--I oftentimes walk around--I used to always work on Saturdays and Sundays until about eight, nine years ago. I said, I've been here long enough, I could take off the weekend. But I oftentimes find myself walking around campus on Saturday or Sunday. And I'd see people around my age with a teenager and, oh, these must be parents. And I give 'em a little tour, and they always remark how clean things are and how neat things, very, very tidy place. and it, it feels very safe, and, not, not--It doesn't feel like it's been overrun by lots of students. And the parents like that. I don't know if the students like that, but I just thought as an older person's, like, you have to have respect for the property. Keep it nice. 00:14:41.485 --> 00:14:48.125 Yeah. What, so what do you think has been the reasons why it's been maintained so well, or aged well? 00:14:48.125 --> 00:15:43.754 I think maintenance is great on the campus. I think the staff keep beautifully. The gardening is incredible. The bougainvillea are there because of a man named Bernie Hinton, who is a founding faculty. And, I didn't always agree with him on things, but, when you drive up campus drive, you see those beautiful bougainvillea, it's makes a real, I mean--the buildings are large, beige, institutional buildings. There's not much you could do with them. They're not--it's just not, Louis Sullivan type of you, or, an Ivy League school campus. But the grounds are very well maintained. And, it just--it doesn't look--it looks new. It still looks new, and some would say a little bit sterile, but I like that. That's fine. It's always, in good shape. 00:15:43.754 --> 00:15:46.254 And the grounds do a lot, I think, to soften the buildings. 00:15:46.254 --> 00:16:16.000 I mean, the setting is gorgeous. I mean, you can't--it's just kind of nestled into this hill. The logo is reflective of that. I actually introduced the logo. I helped design the logo. You know, of course we've cut down some of the hills behind the campus with our mining and quarry operation. But it's just really set nicely into the hillside. And then you look at it, this magnificent vista and, the library, this eleven sided building has great views. 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:17.000 Yes. 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:18.884 Just really lovely. 00:16:18.884 --> 00:16:23.325 Yeah. could we talk about the process of designing the logo? 00:16:23.325 --> 00:18:05.000 Yeah. We had the original logo, which is kind of the keystone that you'll see right across on Science Hall One that was the original logo with a globe in it. Because that's where the-- the founder circle is there. And it's really nice. But it's kind of, it'd be great--better in Pennsylvania with a keystone type of thing. And so we wanted something a little bit softer, a little bit more evocative of the landscape. And so I was on a committee with a men named Rick Moore, who was the Director of Marketing back then. We came up with a style manual and we came up with this, logo, which looks like, the two hills, with the, with the campus nestled on it. And then people--a lot of people didn't like it 'cause if you turned it on its side, it resembled Demi Moore on the cover of Vanity Fair, when she was pregnant, and they noticed that. But I remember, I was given the honor of unveiling this to the entire campus, and I said, and here it is. And I went like this (gestures). And, then I said--and I showed you on the--on the front of my personal action file. I said, you could use it on your own file for personal promotion. And you could use it like this and that. And it was--people still remember that day when I was--I introduced the logo. And, if you still listen to the answering--then you get the, recording--"The first of a new generation of California State Universities,"--that was me as well. 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.000 Nice. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:15.000 So I was on this marketing committee--little things like that,--I mean, I--I'll remember, doing that. And it's like, yeah, I did that. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000 Yeah. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:30.265 But it--and so that logo has lasted. I mean, I think it's, we probably unveiled it around 1998. Maybe it's in need of an update, but that's the one that we have. 00:18:30.265 --> 00:18:44.194 Okay. So, I'm--I wanna circle back a little bit to you saying like that there's kind of this intersection with like the University Marketing and marketing, and then you as a Marketing professor. So were you tapped oftentimes to. 00:18:44.194 --> 00:19:06.674 Oftentimes, yes. Often there were other Marketing professors, but I was high profile and willing to do it. So I always came in--I always had something, to offer that way. And I came in for the local design. I came in for, the, I think the 10th year reunion branding that, a lot of the branding that we did on the campus I was involved in. 00:19:06.674 --> 00:19:18.894 Okay. And does that come back to--does that come back to kind of the campus being small? I hear from a lot of people. Oh, I wore many hats, so, I had to-- 00:19:18.894 --> 00:20:36.625 We did. and the thing is, I got--I talked to Alex Gonzalez once, this is how I became a consultant. I said, in this system, they're always hiring these special consultants with hundreds of thousands of dollars to do--I said, you got go down the elevator two floors. You got 10 people with PhDs in marketing. Why don't you ask us? You give me five grand, I'll do the whole thing for you. You know what I mean? And I mean, I thought, why do you have all this, all these PhDs sitting around and you're hiring these external people? This is a great way to get people to feel more ownership of the campus, because we're actually involved in building it. Well, in the early days on this campus, we had no choice. We had very few resources and, we all knew each other. We were all pretty much based in, if not Craven Hall, we had offices across the hall in, Science One. That was where the library, which was in Craven Hall. So, you couldn't help but bump into all of your colleagues. Now, there are people, I find out they've been here for, you've been here for years, I've never met you. That wouldn't have happened back then. I I saw in the archives, the original, campus directory and had like 15 phone numbers on it. 00:20:36.625 --> 00:20:37.954 Yeah. 00:20:37.954 --> 00:20:46.585 That's how small it was. I mean, that was when we were over at Cal State Jeromes (nickname for Cal State San Marcos' initial location). I didn't come then, I came in (19)96. So we already had Craven Hall. 00:20:46.585 --> 00:21:08.545 Yeah. Okay. This kind of dovetails to a line of questioning I wanted to get into. And--I--so I read a--oh, I'm sorry. I don't have any water in there for you--but, yeah. so I read a University of Buffalo Alumni profile, 00:21:08.545 --> 00:21:09.000 About where? 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:20.005 About you. And you mentioned, that you found a much different academic experience here at CSUSM than you did at University of Buffalo or the University of Chicago. And I was just wondering if you could expand upon what the difference is were there. 00:21:20.005 --> 00:22:50.733 When we become a faculty member, as a new assistant professor, anywhere. At a campus that's been around for a hundred, two hundred years--and it's pretty well all baked in. Most of the leadership on campus, most of the committee work, most of the--most of the decision making is done by crusty old faculty who've been there for a hundred years. And you're told, go into your office, publish six articles, get tenure, and keep your mouth shut, and teach your classes. And that's it. That was not viable at a place like this. I mean, there's all hands on deck. I mean, there was two marketing professors. So we had to develop all the curriculum. So it was all--I was on a committee with, David Borsky and Jackie Fishman and Michael McDuffie. We were doing all the academic policies on the campus and approving all the curriculum. I was the assistant professors. They were also, in the first couple of years we were all, young people. That kind of work is not done by junior people on campuses. This is done by the senior people. Finally, after like, I don't know, about 15 years, this Provost said, ah, now that we've got this critical mass, we don't have to count on all the assistant professors anymore. We can have all the associates and fulls (full professors) do this. Thank you very much. Now that I still get to do it because I have to protect these other people from doing it. 00:22:50.733 --> 00:22:52.255 Yes. 00:22:52.255 --> 00:23:19.634 And it's like, I was always, pressed into service on things. And that was great for--as you could probably tell, I'm not a shy person. And I'm very--I jump in with both feet. I don't know if I would've been tolerated at other campuses with, ideas and wanting to be part of things. I think I would've been the wrong match. Because I can't keep my mouth shut. 00:23:19.634 --> 00:23:22.174 So it's a good, so it was a good environment in those days-- 00:23:22.174 --> 00:25:43.805 It was a great environment for me and when I hire people, it's like, it's still not that solidified. That there's still room to grow. And, if you think you're gonna come here and hide out for six years before we call on you to do things, you've got another thing coming. So I'm telling people in the second and third year, now it's time to step up to do this, and mentor them through the process. I'm a bad example 'cause I did too much early on. But I still think that that spirit of faculty leadership is still much a part of our DNA on this campus. Although, again, as we've gotten bigger over the years--the other thing is, there were people in those days who were the senior people when I came in, who were the-- had the Union and the this, and the faculty who were, they came here mid career, and they were probably at the time in their late thirties, early forties. And so they were the big movers and the shakers. And I thought, someday I'll be one of-- now I'm one of the old people on campus, one of the old timers. You know, how the hell did that happen? But it--and those people who I thought, how--what would the place be like when they're not here anymore? They've gone on, they've retired, they're fine, we're still fine. And it was a great lesson to me. I had given up my office to some-- a new faculty member. I went into the department chair's office and she found a personalized pen with somebody's name on it of a very dear friend of mine who had retired. She said, I don't know who this is. How do you not know who that is? She built this damn place. And I realized that someday that somebody's gonna find my name on something and they'll say, who was he? Even though it seems, I'm pretty high profile around here, but there will be people--there are people on this campus, most of the people on this campus who have never known the campus without Glen Brodowsky's name associated with it. But starting next fall, there'll be people in a post Glen Brodowsky era who won't know. And you know what? It's okay. It's okay. the campus is bigger than all of us. 00:25:43.805 --> 00:25:52.525 Yeah. Yeah. That's a really interesting sentiment. And so you feel okay about moving on, then? 00:25:52.525 --> 00:26:18.815 You have to be able to let go. One of the things I think I've been very successful in doing is hiring the next generation of faculty. I was hired by faculty who were here 30 years ago, 35 years ago. I've hired faculty that will be here 30 years from now. So I'm connected to the campus for 60 years. That's a pretty amazing thing. 00:26:18.815 --> 00:26:31.105 That is. What do you look for when you're thinking about, I don't wanna say succession planning, but when you're looking towards, bringing people in that will continue to build upon what you built? 00:26:31.105 --> 00:28:29.664 Well, first of all, I'm in the process of-- I haven't even started working at Roosevelt (University) yet, but I'm already in a hiring process for new faculty members. Because they need them. Hiring faculty is the most important thing that you can do as a faculty member. It's the most important thing. Because, it's an awful lot of work. Takes an awful lot of time. And I'm not hiring somebody who I want here for two years. I want somebody for the next 20 years . So it's, will they be happy here? Will they find that this is the right speed for them? People who are looking for a tier one, I just wanna do my research, keep my head down and do my thing and be an independent contractor. They're not gonna be happy here. People who really wanna do a lot of development into programs and initiatives and be involved, they're gonna love it. There're faculty members, they got great records, but I didn't wanna hire them 'cause I knew they'd be miserable here. And who wants to, who wants a miserable colleague? So also, it's like adopting a pet, it's a lifetime commitment. How's I see it. It's not like, oh, I'm tired of it, I'm gonna just give 'em away. No, it's a lifetime commitment and faculty are like that. And so, I've seen people who have been not happy here and they've moved on, and I thought that was the right move for them. And other people who have left and come back. And so there's a kind of a type of person I look for who's just really kind of outgoing and roll up their sleeves. And I want to develop this program and that program and have ideas. Not like, okay, which textbook am I gonna use? And to give my marching orders, and I'll just do my thing. That's not the kind of person that I think of as Cal State San Marcos type. 00:28:29.664 --> 00:28:37.835 Yeah. That makes sense to me. Knowing the faculty that I've interacted with here, it's--I think it fits it pretty well. 00:28:37.835 --> 00:28:57.815 There's someone who I'll point to who are young faculty (unintelligible). She's perfect for this place and this place is perfect for her, and she's going just be great. Because she's gonna be happy here after 20 years, you know? And, life is very short, so if you've gotta do a job, you might as well have one that you like. 00:28:57.815 --> 00:29:21.775 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You mentioned that, you've kind of talked a lot about kind of this need almost to have folks that are, able to really dive into things. And, I'm putting words in your mouth a little bit, but be a little self-directed in the way that. 00:29:21.775 --> 00:29:22.634 Yes. Yes. Yes 00:29:22.634 --> 00:29:44.924 Yeah. And so you've talked as well about--and kind of circling back to some things that I found about you, and doing research for this interview about--you've mentioned that when you came here, everything was a new initiative, and that you were involved in policy making. and so I was curious as to what some of these changes that you helped implement and what some of the policy making that you were involved with was? 00:29:44.924 --> 00:31:37.234 My first one was a famous one. We had this system called Banner, which runs all the enrollment stuff. We had these courses and we had prerequisites. And there was no way every enforcing prerequisites. And so everything was an exception. And, I didn't take the prerequisite, I want to take the advanced course. And finally I said, can we find a way to code this in so that, they're prevented from enrolling if they don't have the prerequisite? And we found a way to do it. But I remember putting up a sign saying, as of next fall, all prerequisites will be enforced for all College of Business courses, there will be no exceptions made. Not even for you. And I got emails! I was Department Chair of the program for te-- you were preventing me from getting my education, and you're standing in my way and, you're disadvantaging me. And this is so unfair. And the bitching the and the moaning that went on for about a semester or two until the next crop of students came in. And of course you enforce prerequisite. That's how it's done here. And it became part of the culture. this is how it's done. And it was to the good-- to the--because it increases the likelihood that you'll actually pass the course if you've got the background. Yeah. So, it was, there's a lot of pushback. But then once things become normalized, then I, I learned that things will take a, a couple of cycles to kind of get the kinks out. But once it did, now we enforce prerequisites, period. I haven't had anyone in years ask me if they can come in without the prerequisites. 'cause it's just not, not even thinkable anymore. 00:31:37.234 --> 00:31:46.505 Yeah. So, the students obviously that had to adjust and some of them weren't happy about it. Did you run into any pushback from faculty or from advisors? 00:31:46.505 --> 00:33:13.000 No, they were happy with that. I mean, this is a good thing. Just every policy that we put into place over the years and hundreds of them I've seen, on the statewide level too. One of the things that faculty do is before we pass anything, we try to say, well, what about this contingency? What about that contingency? And we try to bake it all in at once. And I finally said, you know what, it's not gonna be right the first time. We're gonna come up with a what if set. We're gonna get an exception in two years, and we're gonna have to revisit the policy. Because something's gonna come up that we didn't anticipate. And it always has happened. So one of the things that I've tried to implement over the years is whenever we have a policy, we put in a clause that says, and this policy will be reviewed in three years and updated. So we'll go back and say, is there anything that we missed? Because, who could have anticipated, the internet, who could have anticipated ChatGPT. What happens to things like who owns, intellectual property in the age of Chegg and Coursera. I mean, how do we, we, the law has not caught up to the technology. So you can't make, ironclad policies. They're going to change. And so why not just build that into the system to say it's time to look at the promotion and tenure policy. 00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:14.000 Yeah. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:34:33.735 It's time to look into the--into this. And we just had a big discussion about the promotion and tenure policy this year, about people coming in with service credit and can you go out for early tenure, and how does that work? Well, we had to really think about it. And then we said, okay, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to grandfather some people in and then move forward, because, if you're coming under one set of rules. Like, with the prerequisites, you think, well, I'm entitled to that. Well, yeah, but that's gonna, that's gonna end and we're gonna have to have some transition. You don't see that when you first start out, but you see that after 5, 10, 15, 20 years of, oh yeah, we're back to this conversation. We had this conversation 15 years ago and yeah, we knew this would come back to bite us in the ass. And sure enough, here it is, and so-- but faculty have this, well, what about this? Because faculty like to just talk about things. It's like, okay, it's not gonna be perfect. Let's send it up the food chain and see what we get and then we'll come back around the next time. Kinda like sending a paper up for review and said, when I first tried to get something published, I had no idea and I wanted it to be perfect. I said, no, you leave a little something for the reviewer to pick on this, then they'll have something to say. You know? 00:34:33.735 --> 00:34:48.094 Yeah. That's wise. And, I think it's smart, to revisit policy as well. I think that's a really good point. Just to circle back and give things in an occasional refresher and to build that process into the actual design of things. 00:34:48.094 --> 00:35:10.855 That's normal. It's normal. And it takes some of the do or die attitude away if you don't get this right. You know? We'll, it's like raising kids. It's like, assume that you need a fund for the, education, the fund for the therapy. Because you could just screw it up. So be prepared. 00:35:10.855 --> 00:35:24.614 Yep. Well, thank you. I wanted to ask you as well, kind of, kind of along those early days, in 2005, you were involved in CSUSM's. Faculty and residence program. 00:35:24.614 --> 00:35:25.139 Yeah. 00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:30.284 And so this is pretty wild. I had not encountered something exactly like this. 00:35:30.284 --> 00:35:30.295 I lived on campus. 00:35:30.295 --> 00:35:37.385 Yes. That's what I wanted to ask you about. So could you talk about the program as a whole and then why faculty members lived on campus? 00:35:37.385 --> 00:36:20.364 Yeah, they would have one university faculty living in the University Village apartments. There's an apartment there. And I had, at that time, I had an apartment, I had my condo here. And I also had met my partner. So we were down in San Diego. Then we had this apartment. I was here four or five nights a week living on campus with the students. My goal was to, have some programming for them, get to know them, maybe. I took a couple students to the symphony and to the theater. Just to kind of bring the quad down there and them up there. And then the second year, there was a wonderful woman who founded our nursing school, Judy Papenhausen. 00:36:20.364 --> 00:36:20.485 Okay 00:36:20.485 --> 00:36:21.000 She-- have you ever heard of her? 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:22.414 I haven't. 00:36:22.414 --> 00:38:04.344 She retired from Cal State LA and in her seventies came down to Cal State San Marco to build the fa--the nursing school that she always dreamt of. And she was a kind of a tough ole gal, you know? Been around a long time. And she'd been living in a--she had like this camper that she was living in. I said, well, Judy, I said, there's a two bedroom from apartment over there. Why don't you come and shack up with me? So she moved in and we had this two bedroom apartment. And Karen Haynes was like, oh God, Glenn, and Judy are shacking up on campus. Out of wedlock and the whole thing. She's a lesbian, I'm a gay man. It was a big joke. But, and--it was an--it was a nice-- I lived on campus, you know . And, I don't think I did as much with the, as I thought I could have. I don't know. It just, I know one night that there was--they woke me up, but I came out to the hallway and my door closed behind me, and I--they put peanut butter all over the handle. I couldn't open the door. I came into the executive committee meetings. I said to Karen, I said, I don't know what's--they're putting peanut butter on my door and locking me out in the middle of the night. I said, when I went to school, we just did drugs and had sex. What's wrong with these kids? And she's like, oh God, I think people know we made a bad choice here. But it was, it was a fun thing to do and I was the second person to do it, and Scott Greenwood did it first, and I think he was probably more successful. 00:38:04.344 --> 00:38:09.387 Okay. So what was the, like, what was the goal of having the--what was the University's goal in having a professor live in the dorms? 00:38:09.387 --> 00:38:17.764 I think just to kind of join the academic and the student affairs element of it and have, have an adult presence there. 00:38:17.764 --> 00:38:22.204 And do you think it was--so you said maybe, Scott was a little more successful than you were. 00:38:22.204 --> 00:38:44.355 I think he was more involved in it. I think he was--had his wife there, and so they were like dorm parents and things like that. And, I did work a lot with the RAs now that was kind of nice. So I enjoyed it. I did it for about a year and a half, and I said, it's time for somebody else. And I think that--I don't know if anybody else did it after I did it, it was a short-lived program. 00:38:44.355 --> 00:38:47.000 Okay. Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask you was if it, if it continued on or not. 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:48.000 Yeah, no it didn't 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:53.525 Okay. I wanted to ask you as well about the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association. 00:38:53.525 --> 00:41:02.945 I got involved in that a couple years ago. And, the first thing I tried to do is I said, let's have, a dinner at my house. Our Friday night, which is Shabbat, I said, and I'll have a, a nice spread. Everybody will come and we'll have a social event. Well, it's too Jewish. What about people who aren't,-- it's the Jewish-- I said, it's Friday night at my house. We'll have candles and wine. That's it. People may be offended. I said, why? I mean this--the Jewish faculty here are split this. Some people are just very, very, culturally--or just they identify as Jewish, but want no part of the religion. And they're very progressive. And then there are people like me who are a little bit more conservative and are more religiously oriented. So we had our first--we raised a little bit of money over the years. We had to spend it. And I decided that I was gonna have an interfaith Passover Seder. And we did it last year. And all the faculty, they wanted this, they wanted that, anything but Jewish things, they just wanted all this political stuff. And I said, we're gonna do this. Had the meal, had the whole thing, and none of the faculty and staff showed up. This one was too busy. This one had foot surgery that--So they all want to have their input on it, but nobody wanted to do any of the work. So here I am schlepping food and cooking food and doing all this stuff. And I said, there doesn't really seem to be very much will for this to happen. but I stuck with it for two or three years and, it was the only event that we ever had was that Seder. And, the Provost was there and the Vice Presidents for all the other-- couple of faculty, a couple deans. I had seating for 50 people, 10 people showed up. We had a little circle. We had a very nice Seder. And then I was taking all this food to this homeless shelters around trying to get rid of this food, you know? At night, because, everybody was--everybody wanted to say what they wanted, but nobody was willing to do anything. 00:41:02.945 --> 00:41:06.965 Is there--so you-- there's about 50 Jewish faculty and staff on campus? 00:41:06.965 --> 00:41:11.474 I don't even think there's that much. I think there's maybe 15. It's a very small number. 00:41:11.474 --> 00:41:17.364 Yeah. Yeah. So is there, is there, other than the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association are there like--. 00:41:17.364 --> 00:42:06.675 Hillel is active now. And Chabad is active. Chabad is right here in San Marcos. And, Chabad are very, very conservative religious organization. But they are serving a purpose. The students are going there, they outreach, the students, students go there. And then they (say) we don't want Chabad here. They're too religious, but they're the ones who are serving the students. And I think they're doing a great job. And now Hillel has become much more active on campus, especially with the recent, protests. My husband as of today, is on the board of Hillel. So he's involved with that. It's a good organization. So there are not that many Jews on this campus. Maybe there's a hundred. 00:42:06.675 --> 00:42:10.144 What is the, what is the mission of Hillel? I'm not, familiar. 00:42:10.144 --> 00:42:13.224 Hillel is a Jewish student organization. 00:42:13.224 --> 00:42:15.045 Oh, okay. It's a student organization. Okay very cool. 00:42:15.045 --> 00:42:54.614 Student organization. It's, international. It's--most campuses have it. There's usually Hillel House on campus, and they have social, and they have--and also like at UCSD, they have a big facility. UCSD is a pretty rough place right now with the,with protests. And Jewish students don't feel very safe on campus. They're being harassed and so they hang out at the Hillel Center and we try to provide a safe space for them just to feel, that it's--that they're not, on display so much and they can just kind of breathe. 00:42:54.614 --> 00:42:59.735 Yeah. Those, I mean, student identity and inclusion spaces are really important for people to 00:42:59.735 --> 00:42:59.744 They're important! 00:42:59.744 --> 00:43:00.764 Get a break from the larger-- 00:43:00.764 --> 00:43:34.925 Yes. Yes. I am-- I was never into having, these--we have separate graduations for different--I am--I'm much more integrated into everything. I'm much more like one graduation. We all wear the same stupid robe in the same hat. We're all the same. So I'm not really a big proponent of these, designated spaces, but I understand their importance. And Hillel's an international organization, and they have programming and, support services for Jewish students. 00:43:34.925 --> 00:43:40.385 Has there been any talk on campus here of having like a Jewish student center or anything like that? 00:43:40.385 --> 00:43:59.775 No. It's too small. And the Hillel--Chabad house is right down the street and they open their home on Friday nights for everybody. And I think it's wonderful. They're the ones with the black hats and the wigs and the (unintelligible). You know, I went to my period of working with Chabad, I don't know if you were here-- Yes. With the shooting at Chabad. 00:43:59.775 --> 00:44:01.585 Yeah. Yeah. 00:44:01.585 --> 00:44:03.565 I was on my way there that day. 00:44:03.565 --> 00:44:03.985 Oh my gosh! 00:44:03.985 --> 00:44:39.695 When it happened. Because I was doing some work with them. So I know that rabbi quite well. Yeah. He turned out to be a convicted felon. He went to jail. And so, I went from, thinking, oh, my whole life that I was--and I was born in Crown Heights, which is where the headquarters is in Brooklyn with all the black hats. And I'm not one of those people. I always felt like, oh, I'll never be good enough to be one of those very pious Jews. And then I found out that, after that I said, well, maybe not quite up to stuff for me. Yeah. So, it was interesting. 00:44:39.695 --> 00:44:47.764 Thank you. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the consultant to the President that you did as well. 00:44:47.764 --> 00:45:33.465 At that time, I was consulting on the logo and also the budget. There was a budget discussion and the President wanted to get the faculties feeling on budget issues. And so I did a number of focus groups with faculty about the process. This is with President Gonzalez. And basically what I found,--I said--was, that they wanted the Presidents to take a more active role. They were not trying to say don't do it. They said, we wanna see some leadership. So I sat in the President's office, says Alex they're were looking to you for leadership and direction. Don't fuck it up. 00:45:33.465 --> 00:45:43.724 So what was--so, Gonzalez was the second President after Stacey, then Karen Haynes comes in. What do you--were you here when Stacey was here? 00:45:43.724 --> 00:45:47.304 Oh yes. I remember. I remember Dr. Stacy. He just passed away. 00:45:47.304 --> 00:45:54.625 Yes. Yeah. So what do you think like the differences between them were. 00:45:54.625 --> 00:47:20.914 You know, very few people liked Alex. He was not light. And he was considered, the Chancellor's guy. He was, I remember, one of the things, he was, the interim President after Stacy, and then, Charlie Reed, who nobody liked except I liked him. Appointed him the President, and they were having the installation of the appointed no search President, which I dubbed the Coronation . So we were all going to the coronation. And that was the term that we used. That was my word 'cause I remembered that from Mr. Rogers, with the king and the queen. They had the world coronation. and I, and Alex was never quite comfortable in his own skin. He was, quite--lemme tell you a story about Alex. So, I saw him at a dinner at the Chancellor's office once. And, I said, Alex, thank you for everything he did on our campus. He left it in great shape. And Karen has taken it in a new direction. He said, yeah, but those two buildings that she opened up, I got the funding for. It's like-- I told Karen that. She said, yeah, that sounds like Alex. It's like he was not able to be gracious in terms of just, he was trying too hard. 00:47:20.914 --> 00:51:32.474 And I looked-- worked very well with him, and I liked him, and I could sit in (unintelligible). They're looking for leadership. Don't fuck it up, Alex. I said that to him. Karen was--Karen was a force of nature. She was, a huge personality. Everything with Karen was somewhat formal. Even though she was very folksy. Everything was very scripted. Everything was very planned to the letter. And then I came along and, I remember, she always had these outfits that she like, remember those? Monochromatic, one color, the earrings the dress the purse. She used to change her purse every night to match her--And she had these sea foam green shoes on and this matching two piece outfit in the same color. And she was at McMahan house. I said, Karen, I said, I have the same pair of shoes that I've been looking for, the perfect outfit, and only you could find it. And she--she had a huge personality. She was very good with the donors. Some of them. She built a lot. She was the right woman at the right time. She was very senior. She was respected at the Chancellor's office. She had a lot of gravitas. And so I think for that huge growth spurt, she was the ideal person. And I liked working with her. I remember she had this thing over at the reading room here about health--health--allied health careers, and all these people from around the county talking about Allied Health at PalomarCollege. And, not medical school, not nursing, but other things. So she asked me to give a little talk. And I said, I think that you have to start really young with students. I thought first time I played a doctor was in elementary school, So she used to use me as kind of a, an MC type of, she would never appoint me to a real position. I was--but I was like, this spice that she had it sometimes if you use it the right way and sparingly, it was the right accent piece. And we--I understood my place. She surrounded herself with, a lot of good looking young gay men. She liked that. I wasn't good looking enough that that coterie of boys that she had around her. But she liked me and she was--I liked her. I think she was a great President for the time. And Ellen Neufeldt, Boy, talk about a baptism of fire. She comes here and then we had a crisis. We had a scandal, and then boom into pandemic mode. And yet she's really come through all that. She's a very strong President. Very different style than Ellen--than Karen. Much more folksy, much more down to earth in ways. And I've worked really well with her as well. Probably worked more closely with Ellen than I did with any of them 'cause I was chair of the Senate . And I always felt, to be very accessible and very open to ideas. And so, I know if other people have other things to say, but I have--I never felt like I--like I worked for the administration. There was a time when I didn't get the Brakebill Award (Distinguished Professor Award at CSUSM) once, and my colleague got it. And Rather than be bitter, I threw a party at my house for 60 people. And I called and baked, and I invited the President and the Provost at the time. 00:51:32.474 --> 00:53:49.355 And they both came to my house. It was Karen Haynes and Emily Cutrer. And they said, this is the first time we've been invited to a faculty's home. I said, wow. That's telling. I have all these people here. I'm giving them a tour of my house, which is very dicey, you know. And, I was up in my bedroom. I said, I just wanna tell you, I don't work for you. You're not my boss. I work for the state of California and I serve the students and the taxpayers. You have a different job on that campus in that we serve different functions, but we all have the same boss. I don't work for you. And they said, we wish more faculty thought of it that way. So I never looked at them as like, that's my boss, you know? They're partners and they have a different role. They have a different perspective and a different viewpoint. Vantage point. And so I've worked with every President. I've no problem walking into the President's office or the dean's office, or the provost office is saying, we need to get this done, or this is pure bullshit, we need to fix this. And I was never afraid. And I don't know, people say, I'm privileged. I'm a white male. I could get away with that I could never do when I was a black woman. I don't, I don't know if that's a joke. I--it's just that's my style and it served me well here. And it--well, I got in trouble a couple times, but we won't talk about those But, I, think if you comment things from a--always assumed that everybody has good intentions, that even though I think what the President or the provost is doing is completely boneheaded that I--or the board of trustees god help us. They do crazy things. I think their intentions are good. Now. How we get it done may be impossible. But if you start with, I don't think that they're out to make it worse. And we all cop to that. We're all trying to make it better. We have different ideas about how to get there, but if we can always assume that we're all coming at it with positive intentions, I think that, that solves a lot of problems. 00:53:49.355 --> 00:53:53.204 Yeah. And it sounds like you've had good relationships with all of the Presidents that you worked with. 00:53:53.204 --> 00:54:09.514 All of them, I've worked with I dunno, ten deans? I could rank order them if you want, but I won't. But there've been, good ones there have been bad ones, but there's been none that I couldn't work with them. I'm gonna be myself. 00:54:09.514 --> 00:54:12.965 Yeah. 00:54:12.965 --> 00:54:13.594 I am. 00:54:13.594 --> 00:54:15.304 Yeah. Yeah. 00:54:15.304 --> 00:54:45.795 So it's been--what a ride. I mean, who gets to build a place? Who gets to sit here and look at this? Oh, yeah. Well, we did that. I remember when that wasn't there. Or, the day we opened the library, my god, Karen Hayes was standing outside the library and Alex built the library. He got credit for that, and I said to Karen, I said, you know what? This is my baby. This is my life's work right here. Take care of it. 00:54:45.795 --> 00:55:01.605 Yeah. I don't know where to, where to go with that, but it's a wonderful-- 00:55:01.605 --> 00:55:16.155 That's how I feel. I mean, I'm leaving with--I couldn't have had a better career. Could not have had a better--couldn't have planned it better. 00:55:16.155 --> 00:55:31.000 So, a lot of this that you've talked about, a lot of this, kind of need to take initiative and need to, wear many hats, really has given you a skillset now where you can go, back to Chicago and, and be a dean there. 00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:32.000 Yeah. 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.894 And so in that way, it's been, it's been a really good environment for you to-- 00:55:34.894 --> 00:55:40.835 The President said that you built the campus, you know how to do that. 00:55:40.835 --> 00:57:04.000 Yeah. I've had a nice research career. I've done my research, done a lot of research. I've taught a lot I've taught all over the world, you know? One of the things I say to new faculty is, you can do great research. You can do great teaching, you can do great service. You have to do all three. You don't have to do all three every day. Every week or even every semester. There are times when you should be really focusing on your research. You got a great project, you gotta get tenure, you gotta get this done. But then, once that's done, maybe you should be developing some new curriculum or being on a committee, or, chairing a--I was in--I was president of a professional organization for a couple of years. I mean, so you do different things, at different times. And so there's always something new about the career. You know, I spent 17 years traveling around the world teaching. 14 years on statewide academic center. I published 30 articles, and then I just published two books, but I didn't do everything at the same time. You know. 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:11.315 Let's, talk about your guest teaching. So you've taught in Taiwan multiple times. You've taught in-- 00:57:11.315 --> 00:57:13.534 I'm supposed to be there now. I had to give it up. 00:57:13.534 --> 00:57:14.454 Oh, I'm sorry. 00:57:14.454 --> 00:57:19.255 That's, that's my-- Taiwan, Copenhagen-- 00:57:19.255 --> 00:57:19.264 Ecuador. 00:57:19.264 --> 00:57:39.014 Ecuador to Shanghai. Taiwan started as a Fulbright. I looked at the Fulbright. I said, that one has my name on it. 'cause I had lived in Taiwan. I got it and I spent five months there, and I reconnected with some old friends of mine who I knew in the eighties (1980s). 00:57:39.014 --> 00:57:39.718 Nice. 00:57:39.718 --> 00:58:21.000 Who now is like, this woman is like my sister. I've known her literally for 40 years. And we've never--we don't speak any English. It's all Chinese. And they liked me, and they started inviting me back every year. So I got invited back every year through this year. I was supposed to be there now teaching, but I said, I've gotta start a dean's position. I've gotta move. I've gotta finish-- I just couldn't do. And it, 17, 18 times doing the same thing. It's--I think at a certain point it's time to say it's been terrific, but they'll move on. 00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:23.000 Yeah. 00:58:23.000 --> 00:59:36.855 But that was great. That was just like--kept up my Mandarin and I kept up my friendships and I loved Taiwan. I'm like a local there. And then somebody suggested I try Copenhagen Business School. So I applied. Got it. And there was like this group of us that would come in every summer for 10 years. We'd all fly in from all over the world. We'd hang out, rent apartments together, have parties go out to dinner. It was like summer camp. And, so I'd have everybody over and I'd cook and I'd bake and we'd travel on the weekends. It was great. And then right before COVID, I was getting a little bit tired of it. And then the guy who I used to call my summer husband, because we had--we shared an apartment. They didn't invite him back. At the last minute. They invited everybody else, and they didn't even send them a no thank you. They just didn't. And I thought that was kind of rotten. And I thought, God, if that happens to me, and it could, because I'd seen them do it. That would really ruin it for me. I would--I'd feel really awful if like, we were not invited back. 00:59:36.855 --> 00:59:36.864 Yeah. 00:59:36.864 --> 01:00:35.255 And I was only going back for the 11th year because we had the apartment. And when he got canned, a lovely man, he's at University of Oregon, one of the campuses up near Redford. Southern Oregon. I said, I don't need the apartment. I don't need to go back. I've done it 10 times. There's nothing new here. I had a new book coming out. My parents were getting older, so I said, I'm not gonna go back. And they said, oh my God, how are we gonna replace you? We-- you were a brilliant teacher, and we would love to have, but we understand that you have older parents. So I got outta that one, and COVID happened, and the whole program went online, and it's never been the same since. And the esprit de corp, is not there. Everybody's kind of on their own way. I got out at the right time. 01:00:35.255 --> 01:00:35.264 Yeah. 01:00:35.264 --> 01:00:50.073 Ecuador came to me, out of the blue. Would you like to teach a course in Ecuador in international marketing research? Sure. What the hell? I get an invitation like that. Why not? 01:00:50.073 --> 01:00:51.914 Yeah. 01:00:51.914 --> 01:01:48.335 So I went and I drove this poor woman crazy. She ran the place and she told her I was crazy until I got there. And I had a very successful course. And I got invited back four more times over the years. But the first--you never know if you're gonna get invited back. So I flew my partner down. We went to the Galápagos, whatever money I made down there, it went--yeah. I'm in South America, Ecuador, I may never be here again. Let's blow the money on the Galápagos. Fabulous. Next year. I went to the jungle. I went to the Amazon, I went to Machu Picchu, loved it. I got another sabbatical, and I applied to be at the China European International Business School, CEIBS. Shanghai, four weeks, 25 grand. The most prestigious that I could get. I hated it. They hated me. The most lucrative one didn't last. 01:01:48.335 --> 01:01:48.344 So-- 01:01:48.344 --> 01:01:50.000 So you win some, you lose some-- 01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:51.000 Yeah. 01:01:51.000 --> 01:03:31.724 But, you know, three out of four, where I was invited back multiple years and never was not invited back. I mean, it's--I was--and so that was about almost 20 years of my life where I was doing international work. Which is what I wanted to do. I had a beachhead in Asia. I had one in South America. I had one in Europe. Plus I was gonna Mexico. I was going to Germany, all that. But I mean, I was really an international lecturer all on my own. and it was great for about 17 years. And then COVID happened. I thought, I don't have to fly internationally. I did. It was great. And I made the most of it. And that was a big chapter of my life that's --it's kind of behind me. But boy, it was great. And sure. How could, how could you be somebody who teaches international marketing, cross-cultural marketing, doing it, sitting in California. So I, I did it. And I was able to do it and get away in the middle of the semester and schedule things and go away for four or five weeks at a time. They never missed me. I was, the department chair, was running meetings on Zoom at three o'clock in the morning, whatever I was doing, they let me get away with this. I can't believe it and yet, I never didn't do my job. I never--I was a reliable vote on everything and whatever. So, boy was I lucky. 01:03:31.724 --> 01:03:44.045 So what was the biggest--what was the biggest adjustment in teaching when you teach overseas as opposed to here. 01:03:44.045 --> 01:03:46.228 I do it exactly the same way. 01:03:46.228 --> 01:03:46.720 Yeah. 01:03:46.720 --> 01:04:36.625 I mean, even when I did it in Ecuador, I had a simultaneous translator who turned out to be a good buddy of mine. We've been friends for years now. we've worked on some projects together. So that was a little bit--learning to pace myself so that he was simultaneously translating. That was not that bad. I just never adjusted to the program. And in Shanghai, it just . They evaluated me after the third day, and it was not good. And it was too heterogeneous a course, class. It's just--at the time-- it just didn't work. I'm sorry, it didn't, but Taiwan was easy. Taiwan was, now during COVID, I taught in Taiwan, I had eight hour classes. 01:04:36.625 --> 01:04:37.505 Wow. 01:04:37.505 --> 01:05:19.204 00 PM in front of my computer till two, three o'clock in the morning, drinking coffee here in California. But I--I've been teaching international students since I was in college. I tell the same jokes. I'm used to a non-English speaking audience. I'm used to talking to people in a way that they can understand. I speak slowly. I give lots of examples. I've had the same response from students wherever I've gone. 01:05:19.204 --> 01:05:24.764 Could you talk about cross-cultural marketing and what--for a layman like myself, what is-- 01:05:24.764 --> 01:09:11.000 Interestingly enough, the first book I did was about cross-cultural international marketing, comparing Germany and France and France and China and all these kind of--how is marketing different? How do people consume products differently? How do they use products differently? A lot of my marketing was about time, how do people conceive of time differently in different places? And it is very different. And it feels different whether, in certain places things are very linear. You do A and then B and C and D and other places, everything's going on all at once. It doesn't make any sense. It could be very disconcerting. And so a lot of the earlier work was about comparing things on the national level . And then what I realized is that culture--countries are not cultures. Countries are multidimensional. So the second book was more about intercultural marketing, let's say taking Southern California and looking at dividing that up between the Latino culture. that if you're looking at the Asian culture in San Diego, it really is not Chinese. It's Vietnamese and Filipino. Okay. If you go to LA and San Francisco there is a Japanese culture there, you've got hip hop culture, you've got--Latino culture is not a monolith theater. You've got here. It's all Mexicans. In New York, it's Puerto Ricans and Ecuadorians and in Florida it's Cubans. They all speak Spanish, but music's different. The food's different. Some of the things are similar. I mean, it tends to be Catholic and family oriented and male dominated. There's certain kind of Latin things. But then even within that, you've got first generation Latinos who just came here, and their parents are different. They consume differently. They speak differently. They see the world differently. So the cross-cultural marketing, some of it I think of doing, in terms of, you could look at things in terms of cross-cultural differences, which are interesting, where you need to change the product or the price, or the color or whatever it is. And other things, you don't have to change everything. There's certain things that will go cross cultures. And so if you can find similarities, well, we could have one product for two groups of people. That saves us a lot of money. That's a lot more profitable. So I'm as interested in looking at cross national differences as I am looking at international differences. And even if you look at things like-- then you have segments that are--you find all over the world. So diaspora marketing. So you find Indian populations all over the world. You find, Hasidic Jews all over the world. They have more in common with one another than anyone who lives within this 400 mile radius of where they live. But that--there's similarities there. So how do we serve those communities that you--or you look at the, businessmen okay. Who are traveling through international airports. They're shopping in Sky Mall. They're buying stuff. They're buying Fendi and Courvoisier at the duty free. They're buying gifts for their wives when they're coming home. They're buying gifts for their mistresses when they're going. So there's a lot going on. And they all carry the same kind of briefcases and wear the same kind of shoes. And yet they may come from 10 different countries. And then the ultra wealthy. I mean, some of the wealthiest people in the world live in the poorest countries. They own them. 01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:13.000 Yeah. 01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:45.844 Okay. So how--so that's another segment. So you can set with market based upon wealth, and that's--that goes across countries. And then there are also things that are very national. There are things that are very American that are very different in things that are very Canadian. Believe it or not, there are differences there. Don't ever tell 'em-- a Canadian, that they're just like Americans. We're just like--Americans are just like us. We're just nicer. You know, you have to look at it from their perspective. It is a different culture. 01:09:45.844 --> 01:09:45.854 Yeah. 01:09:45.854 --> 01:11:00.375 It may be subtle. So, in my book, first book, I had a lot of the more classic, scholars from going back for the past 70 years, who've done work on international marketing, international negotiations. All these different models that we've used to try to understand these differences, none of are terribly perfect. None of 'em are perfect at all. And then the second one is says, what about the African American market? What about hiphop? Hiphop is now a multinational--it's not just an American thing, and it's not just a Black thing. It's kind of the music of the oppressed and the under classes. But then American Blacks' think it's a Black thing, but then you go around the coun--, the world. And it's like, no, there are people--there are more non-Black people who are fans of hip hop than there are Black people. But is it still a Black--isn't it our thing? When the music of the counterculture becomes the mainstream does it lose its authenticity? These are interesting questions. And that's some of the work that I do. 01:11:00.375 --> 01:11:42.324 Okay. That is really interesting. And you talked a lot about intercultural--I'm trying to wrap my head around it as I just got like a very beginner seminar in it. so you talk a lot about the kind of the intercultural, connections that you can make across cultures. I'm interested to know, I guess, how marketing--how you can look at marketing, and implement marketing across cultures when there are structures in place that maybe function very differently. Like we look at marketing, I assume, I'm making an assumption here. We look at marketing very differently than maybe somebody in, China does. 01:11:42.324 --> 01:12:07.104 Absolutely. Well, they're not--Here's one of the things that's very interesting. I'll use Taiwan as an example. Taiwan makes great products. Fabulous products. Their phones are the best phones in the world. And yet they're the shittiest marketers on Earth. They don't know how to market because they view marketing and the Chinese, to an extent do as well, as expense. 01:12:07.104 --> 01:12:07.824 Okay. 01:12:07.824 --> 01:12:16.104 Okay? Branding is not important. Branding is--it's--they--they're much more engineering driven. Okay. 01:12:16.104 --> 01:13:59.364 Whereas a company like Apple or Samsung, they make their products sexy. The HTC phone is, every bit as good, if not superior to the Samsung. But HTC is not a sexy brand. Samsung invested billions of dollars in marketing and in brand building. In making it something where I want a Samsung. The Chinese to their-- the Chinese and the Taiwanese, their mindset is a little different. It's like, we just wanna make it cheap and efficient. We wanna make our profit on having good quality and selling a lot. So they don't really have exclusive brands. Now, Huawei is doing something a little bit different. Huawei is, now you'll go around the world and you'll see Huawei in airports, and they're spending billions of dollars on marketing, and they're gonna become the next Samsung. But certainly the Japanese and the--and the Koreans are very similar 'cause they were much more export oriented. They really kind of understood that we have a small market at home and we have to make our products desirable in the West. China, not so much. They've got 1.3 billion people there. So just in terms of what they've-- Taiwanese just do not invest in marketing. They do not invest in branding. They don't care. They invest in technology. They are the world's best OEM. They will make the best components. You can't build a bicycle or a saxophone or a computer without a Taiwanese component. 01:13:59.364 --> 01:14:01.625 I'm sorry, what's an OEM? Just to clarify. 01:14:01.625 --> 01:14:04.454 Original equipment manager. So they make the components. 01:14:04.454 --> 01:14:05.574 Okay. 01:14:05.574 --> 01:14:32.494 They said, we wanna become an OBM, original brand manufacturer. Well fine invest in branding. Spend this much money on your branding as you're doing your R&D. Oh, we couldn't do that. We just want people to write--It's like. So there--and look, you need somebody who makes good components. So let's brand Taiwan as like Taiwan inside, like Intel inside. 01:14:32.494 --> 01:14:35.104 Yeah. 01:14:35.104 --> 01:14:37.164 They're not willing to spend the money. 01:14:37.164 --> 01:14:38.539 So how, as-- I mean as a marketer- 01:14:38.539 --> 01:14:39.000 Frustrating 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:45.000 how do you market the importance of marketing to people that don't-- 01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:46.000 Very slowly. 01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:49.000 Yeah. 01:14:49.000 --> 01:15:01.989 But yeah. And look, Levi's. McDonald's. Coca-Cola. IBM, it's all branding. The products are not--I mean, nobody thinks that McDonald's is good. 01:15:01.989 --> 01:15:08.594 Yep. It's not a good product. Marlboro, if you, if you use it correctly, you will die. 01:15:08.594 --> 01:15:08.604 Yeah. 01:15:08.604 --> 01:15:16.385 But my God, the Marlboro man, everyone wants to be that rugged individual. 01:15:16.385 --> 01:15:17.284 Yeah. 01:15:17.284 --> 01:15:21.784 That's what they want to be. 01:15:21.784 --> 01:15:30.414 Yep. That's very-- that's very interesting. So, and I do wanna be mindful of your time. How are you on time? 01:15:30.414 --> 01:15:37.864 Fine. I'm just--I'm realizing that hopefully I didn't leave my wallet where I think it's. 01:15:37.864 --> 01:15:58.824 Okay. let me ask you a little bit about marketing. About-- I'm gonna ask you to forecast a little bit. Obviously we're seeing huge technological changes and we really have been since the advent of the internet. But--so I guess my first question is, how has marketing changed since, the advent of the Internet? 01:15:58.824 --> 01:18:34.000 It's completely data driven. Completely. There (is) more data than ever there's no shortage of data. We need people who could interpret data and extract information. What does it mean? What does it tell us? So there'll be jobs and data analysis. Students don't have a good grasp on that. Those who can take information and say, well, what this means is this. Not, here's this number. 30% do this, 20% do-- That's nice. But what could we say with that? What can we conclude. Those skills are, are lacking. I think, also the old kind of-- the company tells you what it wants to tell you about its products is gone. It--it's all C to C it's all consumer to consumer. It's all word of mouth. I mean, they always said word of mouth is the strongest marketing before the internet. Now it's like on steroids, because, you're gonna go to Yelp, you're gonna go to TripAdvisor. You wanna see what other travelers say, okay. You know, the commercial doesn't tell you. It's the reviews that tell you that's the first thing that you go to. So, there was a wonderful thing I heard from a person from Marriott who was sitting with me through a number of musicals. You're no longer a brand manager. You're a brand steward. You were--and you have to work with consumers. And you have to understand your customers so that they become your ambassadors. You have to create, evangelists for your brand. Who will tell their friends and rave about it. 'cause they'll also complain about it a lot more. So--and they'll destroy you. So, it's not just how do we craft a message? How do we convince people something that's-- it's not that. It's how do we get people excited about what we're doing so that they'll tell everybody else? So I think the two biggest trends are data. Data, and data and so you got Teradata down, (and) down the road, so-- and what Teradata does is it takes all these data from what you've done. So, you know how, you look at the upgrade list when you're trying to get onto the flight? It's like--and there's like--so like six seats in first class. And I'm always the seventh person so I never get the seat. Sometimes I do, but how do they figure out who gets the seat? 01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:36.000 Yeah. Yeah. 01:18:36.000 --> 01:19:12.614 You know, but there's a lot of information. How many miles do you have? How often do you fly? How many upgrades? There's a whole thing of algorithms that, that they take these enormous amounts of data that we hit--that we have about every customer. And then how do we look at it so that we could make decisions to say, well, it's not rewarding you as a customer, but rewarding the right customer. 'cause that's the customer that's going to become the sustainable customer. You know, customers are an investment. 01:19:12.614 --> 01:19:12.625 Interesting. 01:19:12.625 --> 01:20:01.000 You wanna reward those that are gonna--everybody likes to get something for free, but which one gets it for free? What benefits the company the most? Also, and that could also be where's the goodwill? I mean, how do we, how are we good corporate citizens? You can't get away with the things you've got whether 50 years ago 'cause everybody's gonna read about you. So, do we sponsor,--if we're gonna support Donald Trump, what's that gonna cost us in terms of some of our customers? So we--if we do support Donald Trump with our marketing, is it gonna get us more customers? I talk about this a lot in classes talking about politics. Please it's the biggest marketing campaign every four years as a Presidential election. Why do you vote for this guy? 01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:02.000 Yeah. 01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:18.515 And frankly, very few people are indifferent to Donald Trump. They either absolutely love him and think he's the second coming, or they think he's the devil incarnate. There's not anybody that goes, well, if we get him, it doesn't matter. 01:20:18.515 --> 01:20:19.465 Yeah. 01:20:19.465 --> 01:20:29.095 Nobody feels that strongly about Biden. I don't get the, we gotta get this guy. He's so great. 01:20:29.095 --> 01:20:32.435 So from a marketing perspective, how do you, how do you market him.? 01:20:32.435 --> 01:21:02.734 Donald Trump is a brilliant marketer. He's a brilliant marketer. He knows how to resonate with his audience to say, you have this problem. I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna fix it. I'm going to kick ass and take names. Well, some people will just say, yes, you're right. You shall lead us. And other people are shivering in their boots. But nobody's indifferent. 01:21:02.734 --> 01:21:09.314 Yeah. And then you have somebody, a candidate like Biden. How does--how do you market Biden? 01:21:09.314 --> 01:21:24.795 Well, I mean, he was marketed as kind of the anti-Trump, you know? He was calmer. He was supposed to just keep things even keeled. If it's too chaotic, here's an alternative. I'll just keep (inaudible). 01:21:24.795 --> 01:21:28.324 Yeah. So it kind of, it kind of comes back to Trump. 01:21:28.324 --> 01:21:49.114 Yeah. Exactly. But it-- you can't not talk about. I always turn on CNN, which is an anti-Trump, station, and I always count how many seconds go by before I heard the name Trump. And it's usually about six. 24 hours a day. You can't buy coverage like that. 01:21:49.114 --> 01:21:51.444 Yeah. Yeah. 01:21:51.444 --> 01:21:52.564 Yeah. 01:21:52.564 --> 01:22:02.225 Yep. I wanted to ask you a little bit about teaching and, just kind of the--kind of wrapping up-- 01:22:02.225 --> 01:22:58.505 I'm a frustrated actor, I was not good enough to be a--I love to perform. I like to be in front of a group. I like to be the center of attention. I feel like Phil Donahue or (inaudible) running around a room and getting everybody excited and talking and participating. It's the most fun I can have with all my clothes on. on the worst days of my life in my career, and those are the best teaching days. 'cause when something's really bothering me and I'm all pent up and I can walk into a room and become this other character. And everything outside melts away. And Dr. B is this much nicer version of me. Based upon my life. Not really, but, an exaggerated version of me. 01:22:58.505 --> 01:23:02.005 How is it an exaggerated version or a nicer version of you? 01:23:02.005 --> 01:24:14.604 Well, I can't say the F word as much. I don't know. It's just, I'm having fun. I'm not stuck in my own, what's-- my best days are--I've had a bad customer experience. Another comment--I would tell you everything went wrong in the store. And related to you--in real life. I just--I remember once, this is after my partner died, the first year I was teaching at UC Riverside, I taught there for a couple years as an adjunct. And I walked down into this auditorium and I'm walking down and my face is long and the weight of the world on my shoulder. I was widowed. And I turned around to the classroom and it was different. It all went away. And I was fully present in this moment. Talking about interesting stuff. 01:24:14.604 --> 01:24:15.795 Yeah. 01:24:15.795 --> 01:25:07.000 Asking them interesting questions, getting them to talk, getting them to think. Yeah. Why did they package it that way? Why did they price it that way? Why do they have that in the commercial? What are they trying to say? What's going on? What's the message? One thing, the fun thing about teaching marketing is, not everyone's gonna be an accountant. Not everybody's well you know-- not every-you can take an English class, you might not be an ex(pert), you are always gonna be a customer. You're always gonna be involved in marketing transactions. So even if you never become a marketer, okay, you are being marketed to 24 hours a day. Wouldn't you like to be a more active participant in that? Wouldn't you like to know what's going on? 01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:08.000 Yeah. 01:25:08.000 --> 01:25:11.064 I would. 01:25:11.064 --> 01:25:15.145 So you have a built-in, level of engagement then? 01:25:15.145 --> 01:26:17.664 Yes. Yes. I mean, I talk about this, I talk about toilet paper, I talk about tampons, I talk about, I talk about cars. I talk about, gas mileage and going to Costco. I had a group of students--I got to teach this group of Italian students this past semester and they'd never been to a Costco. And it was a three hour class. And I showed a video about distribution, and we talked about pizza. I said, well, it's 6:30. I got an idea. Let's take a field trip. And we all went to Costco. It's like 10 students, five Americans, five Italians. And we went around Costco and we looked at everything and I said, let's try the pizza. 'cause they're all Italians. And we got the pizza. We got them to rate pizza. But it's like, this is how--this is where people shop in America. They shop in one of 3, 4 places. They either go to Target, Walmart, Costco, or Amazon. I'd say that covers about 80% of where people shop. 01:26:17.664 --> 01:26:20.104 Yeah. 01:26:20.104 --> 01:26:32.265 And they go, this is different. The places the size of an air airport hangar, you don't have that in Italy. 01:26:32.265 --> 01:26:38.005 How has your-- has your teaching evolved over time? Have you changed your approaches or--? 01:26:38.005 --> 01:27:27.284 I use a lot more simulations. A lot more technology. I'm more comfortable letting them work in groups, especially with the long classes in Taiwan, it's eight hours. So I'll give a two hour lecture in the morning, and we'll take a break, and then maybe we will break up and do a case study. And I'll walk around to different groups, and then we'll go to lunch and they'll come back and they'll work on the simulation. So it doesn't all have to be about me. I used to think I was-- I had to be on, if it was the 90 minute class, I had to be actively engaged at teaching. And, I think I've gotten more comfortable with letting them learn. You know. 01:27:27.284 --> 01:27:38.354 Yeah. Kind of talking about students and letting them learn. Have you seen our student body evolve over time? 01:27:38.354 --> 01:28:09.175 I think post COVID, there's been some--there's been some real loss of social skills, real loss of engagement. I see that also among the faculty, people not knowing how to behave. People don't know how to engage with people anymore. I mean, I think COVID was a real eyeopener about how fragile our systems, our social systems or our educational systems, our financial systems, our logistics systems, everything broke down. 01:28:09.175 --> 01:28:11.154 Things are still breaking down. 01:28:11.154 --> 01:28:29.994 They are still not back where they were. No, they're not. When you turn off a faucet and it doesn't just come back on when you open the spigot. So, yeah. There's a lack of engagement. 01:28:29.994 --> 01:28:41.354 Yep. I just wanted to ask you about your--just to wrap up, I wanted to ask you about faculty Senate, and--so you're chair. 01:28:41.354 --> 01:30:01.015 Yes, I loved it. I was afraid. I thought, I've been asked to do it many times throughout my career, and I said, no 'cause I prefer to be on the committee, not in charge of the committee. Because he could be speak more freely, but--and I wasn't planning to do it. And I ran a couple years ago and I lost. I said, well, the hell with it. And then I was asked to do it, and I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. I promised the provost that if I got through an entire year of running the Senate with no drama in meetings, no fighting, no screaming, no-- that I got a steak dinner. And it was pretty rough year. Lots of stuff going on with GE and things like that. And we got through it and it worked. So I'm hoping I'll get a steak before I leave. I loved it. I really loved it. I also realized that, I had a really good team in place who were like, the detail people. I'm not the detail person, so I was like, I don't have to read everything. They're gonna read it and I'll find the mistakes. And I just--my job was just to--it's just to be the master of ceremonies and keep things moving. I loved it. I thought it was the easiest year of my career. 01:30:01.015 --> 01:30:01.024 Nice. 01:30:01.024 --> 01:30:16.675 And people told me, oh, it's awful. It's miserable. And why would you do this to yourself and they, you know, they said why would you do this to, it's a miserable, thankless position. And I loved it. And the people who I thought would be difficult, I found a way to work with them. 01:30:16.675 --> 01:30:21.327 Yeah. That's good. What was the maybe the biggest accomplishment of Faculty Senate this year? 01:30:21.327 --> 01:30:31.795 Getting us organized to deal with the changes to, GE. 01:30:31.795 --> 01:30:32.835 They're gonna be big. 01:30:32.835 --> 01:31:44.375 Like, and I've been (inaudible) saying this for two years and kicked and screamed--it's going to happen. It's going to happen. I know how things are. And then, no, we could push back and I say, if we had taken the time, instead of pushing back and getting organized, things would be a lot easier. But at least I got everybody's seizures on this committee for the summer. They're meeting, I was able to hand it off, to be able to leave. I mean, and I let the provost knowing and the President('s) office knew before the announcement, at least a month before. And I was determined to not leave anything half done. So getting things sewn up or ready to be passed on, I think goes back to, I could leave the College of Business 'cause I could point to a dozen faculty members that I hired that're gonna be much better at doing it than I am now, or have been. That I didn't leave a mess for anybody. I left it how I found it, but better. 01:31:44.375 --> 01:31:45.414 That's good. 01:31:45.414 --> 01:31:56.000 And that's--people are not gonna open drawers and say, oh, he left this mess. Oh my God, what I do, he's gone. You have to plan the succession. 01:31:56.000 --> 01:31:57.000 Yeah. 01:31:57.000 --> 01:31:58.795 And so there's a lot of talent around here. 01:31:58.795 --> 01:32:05.604 And you leave next week? 01:32:05.604 --> 01:32:05.614 Mm-hmm. 01:32:05.614 --> 01:32:06.283 Well, Congratulations on your new position. 01:32:06.283 --> 01:32:10.965 And may God have mercy on my soul. 01:32:10.965 --> 01:32:14.038 What are you looking forward to about it? 01:32:14.038 --> 01:32:15.131 Being in Chicago. 01:32:15.131 --> 01:32:17.036 Yeah. 01:32:17.036 --> 01:32:20.845 And walking to work. 01:32:20.845 --> 01:32:23.784 Well all right. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I didn't? 01:32:23.784 --> 01:32:24.423 No. 01:32:24.423 --> 01:32:27.370 Alright. Well thank you Dr. Brodowsky. I appreciate it. 01:32:27.370 --> 01:32:28.255 My name is Glen. 01:32:28.255 --> 01:32:33.755 Thank you Glen. I appreciate you spending time with us today. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brodowsky, Glen. Interview June 14th, 2024. Description An account of the resource Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-090 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Administrative Building California State University San Marcos. Faculty Senate California State University San Marcos. Jewish Faculty and Staff Association California State University San Marcos. Marketing Department Cross-cultural marketing Gonzalez, Alexander Haynes, Karen S. Intercultural marketing Neufeldt, Ellen California State University San Marcos--Faculty Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-06-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Glen Brodowsky Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brodowsky, Glen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Visintainer, Sean Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> CSUSM history Jewish experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Albert F. Toro OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran United States Army;Vietnam;Chilean American Veterans;Sergeant OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 SC027-073 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Army ; Vietnam ; Chilean American Veterans ; Sergeant Albert F. Toro Jason Beyer Moving Image ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/149798808a6a331fca4bb254ae05fe7e.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 62 Military Background and Upbringing Albert F. Toro served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War and attained his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. He was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. U.S. Army ; E5 Sergeant ; Vietnam War ; Santiago (Chile) ; junior college ; draft ; conscription 0 113 Military Conscription Toro was working and attending junior college when he received notice to register for military service. He was presented with the choice to either serve or leave the country. Toro wanted to finish college and build a life for himself in the United States, so he was drafted into the U.S. Army. Around 1967, he was inducted into the Armed Services without the opportunity to defer. U.S. Army ; draft ; conscription ; Vietnam War ; Armed Forces ; college ; deferment ; register ; induction ; physical ; Federal Bureau of Investigation ; U.S. Air Force ; high school 0 340 Military Training and Promotions Toro trained as infantry at Fort Ord. Frequent rain and long walks made training physically challenging. He received on-the-job training as a supplier while in advanced individual training. He recalls how his battalion commander, Captain Cunning, was a kind man who mentored him. Toro became an armorer and was awarded for his outstanding service. infantry ; rain ; meningitis ; battalion ; barracks ; base camp ; training ; post exchange ; platoon ; advanced individual training ; basic training ; on-the-job training ; supplier ; Captain Cunning ; commander ; officer ; armorer ; M14 rifle ; M16 rifle ; Military Operational Standard ; corporal ; sergeant ; Private First Class ; Fort Ord (Calif.) ; Highway 1 (Calif.) ; Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) 0 642 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Toro describes how difficult it was to sacrifice his independence as he adapted to the military lifestyle. Additionally, it was difficult to become independent again after years of depending on others in the service. military lifestyle ; draft ; Vietnam ; civilian ; Armed Forces ; U.S. Army 0 752 Interactions with People During Stateside Service After his on-the-job-training, Toro became permanent cadre and stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the training unit that he was assigned to. Toro describes the camaraderie among cadre at Fort Ord as some of his favorite experiences during stateside military service. on-the-job training ; cadre ; camaraderie ; sergeant ; lieutenant ; Vietnam ; Fort Ord (Calif.) 0 828 Deployment to Vietnam In January of 1968, Toro was deployed to Tan Son Nhut, located near Saigon, Vietnam. He remembers the gigantic base camp, its large barracks, and the mosquito nets that surrounded the buildings. Toro recalls being attacked on his first night in Vietnam, hiding in a concrete bunker. Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; Expiration Term of Service ; Vietnam ; Vietnam ; base camp ; Armed Forces ; Bearcat ; mosquitoes ; culvert 0 967 Interactions with Local Cultures and People in Vietnam The only frequent interactions Toro had with local Vietnamese people were the kitchen police who served food for American armed forces. After his time at Tan Son Nhut, Toro served for six months at Củ Chi Base Camp as part of the supply unit providing food, weapons, and equipment to the field. kitchen police ; Vietnam ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; 25th Infantry Division ; Viet Cong ; artillery supply ; supplier ; artillery unit ; supply unit ; battery ; service ; sorties ; base camp ; battalion 0 1105 Sleeping Arrangements in Vietnam Toro describes sleeping arrangements in Vietnam and his experience repairing a flooded hooch during a storm. sleeping arrangements ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; storm ; hooch ; post exchange 0 1161 Experiences with Wild Animals in Vietnam Fumigation, traps, and mosquito nets helped prevent any negative experiences Toro had with wild animals. However, heavy rain would cause problems for housing. wild animals ; viper ; fumigation ; rats ; mosquito nets ; tents ; rain ; Vietnam 0 1252 Supplying Artillery Units in Vietnam As a Supply NCO, Toro supplied artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. combat ; combat service ; combat service support ; supply ; artillery ; ammunition ; food ; battalion ; clerics ; ammo dump ; Howitzers ; sorties ; convoys ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Supply NCO ; Non-Commissioned Officer 0 1347 Recreation in Vietnam Although Toro says there were “no weekends” in Vietnam, he does describe moments of respite, including barbecues and film nights. recreation ; Vietnam ; war ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; barbecue ; cooking ; conexes ; projector ; movies ; The Green Berets ; John Wayne 0 1431 Stories of Camaraderie and Supplying Artillery in Vietnam Toro was mentored by Sergeant Johnson, who took him under his wing as a clerk. While in Cần Thơ as part of his ammunition supply work, he would make trips to get ammunition from the South Vietnamese army. Toro recalls humorous interactions with the South Vietnamese army, specifically what he had to do in order to receive the ammunition. Toro was grateful to supply ammunition because it kept him from being sent to the field. However, he does recall the fear of landmines and seeing exploded civilian buses. Sergeant ; Chile ; Armed Forces ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; ammunition ; clerk ; Vietnamese ; English ; Howitzers ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; South Vietnam ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) ; ammo dump ; office ; officer ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; sorties ; convoys ; artillery unit ; helicopter ; roads ; landmines ; rice paddies ; buffalo ; civilians ; buses ; farmers ; Charlie Battery ; rubber plantation ; French ; base camp 0 1734 Communication with Family Since Toro made the decision to stay in the U.S. and join the military instead of returning to Chile, his family was upset. The long period of separation was especially hard on his parents. family ; friends ; communication ; parents ; Chile ; South America 0 1762 Treating Others with Respect as a Sergeant As a Sergeant, Toro wanted to treat the guard duty he was in charge of with respect. When guards were in foxholes, Toro would bring them food, help them stay awake, and try to keep them comfortable. Sergeant ; guard duty ; respect ; friend ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; platoon ; foxhole ; shelter ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; trust 0 1838 Unusual Event Experienced in Vietnam Toro tells a story about guarding an airfield in Cần Thơ. A soldier reported from a 30-foot tall tower that he was afraid, and Toro went to support him. Rain was flooding the area. Toro almost got washed off into barbed wire and nearly lost his weapon. By the time he reached the top of the tower, Toro and the guard were fired upon by snipers. The guard panicked and jumped off the tower but did not break any bones. guard ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Cobra helicopters ; Bell AH-1 Cobra ; jungle ; towers ; rain ; Jeep ; barbed wire ; sniper fire ; M16 ; .45 caliber handgun ; sandbags 0 1982 Sleeping in the Deuce-and-a-Half in Vietnam According to Toro, U.S. armed forces slept in tents at base camp in Cần Thơ and hoped to eventually build hooches. Heavy rains and mosquitoes made sleeping in the tents difficult. So Toro spent three months sleeping in his M35 2½-ton cargo truck, commonly referred to as a Deuce-and-a-Half. Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; hooch ; mosquito nets ; mosquitoes ; sleeping arrangements 0 2097 End of Military Service Before ending his service, Toro had “two weeks off” on guard duty in Cần Thơ. He recalls spending most of the day in base camp, occasionally visiting an enlisted club that served food. He avoided leaving base camp or exposing himself too much because he wanted to make it back home alive. guard duty ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; enlisted club ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; base camp 0 2218 Returning to the U.S., Visiting Family in Chile, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Toro returned to the U.S. in the San Francisco bay area. He then spent months in Chile with his family before returning back to Los Angeles. Using the G.I. Bill, he was able to complete college and start his career in the aerospace industry in defense. San Francisco (Calif.) ; U.S. Air Force ; Expiration Term of Service ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Chile ; United States ; G.I. ; college ; South America ; family ; aerospace industry ; defense industry 0 2402 Camaraderie During Service and Inability to Reconnect with Friends after Service While working at TRW in Torrance, California, he ran into a fellow Vietnam veteran. The moment was memorable because Toro had lost contact with most of his Vietnam comrades. Toro had hoped to reconnect with the fellow veteran, but the interaction was cold and brief. Despite this, he says the comradery in Vietnam was strong. Toro tells a story about he and his comrades building a makeshift bar using ammunition boxes, plywood, and plastic roofing. Vietnam ; Torrance (Calif.) ; refineries ; gas station ; TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.) ; defense contracts ; mechanic ; motor pool ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Tet Offensive ; camaraderie ; ammunition ; bar ; Howitzers ; plywood ; roofing ; C-rations ; artillery 0 2603 Vietnam Veterans’ Feelings of Ostracization After Service Toro describes the feelings of ostracization he experienced in the U.S. as a Vietnam veteran. He was especially upset that the “amazing people” he served alongside were often ridiculed. Toro tells a story about a group of long range patrols who had a monkey as a guard animal. Toro says he started to feel prouder of his military service once the attitude toward Vietnam veterans changed and they were better recognized for their service. Vietnam ; ostracization ; Travis Air Force Base ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; U.S. Army ; veterans ; infantry ; baboon ; monkey ; dog ; long-range reconnaissance patrol ; search and destroy ; Viet Cong ; the 25th Infantry division ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; My Lai ; massacre ; recognition ; baby killer 0 2907 Life Lessons from Military Service Toro says friendship was a life lesson he learned in military service. He describes how some of the less fortunate people in his training unit at Fort Ord had chosen military service as an alternative to jail. These were often teenagers. friendship ; discipline ; Fort Ord ; Category IV ; Cat 4 ; teenager ; military service ; jail teenager 0 2960 Message for Future Generations Toro says that if he learned one thing, it is that you have to survive in war. You cannot count on anyone else. survive ; survival ; risk 0 3026 Association with the San Marcos Community Toro became associated with the San Marcos community through his neighbor, Jason Beyer, the oral history interviewer. San Marcos (Calif.) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; interview 0 3051 Comradery and Recreation during Military Service Although he struggles to remember the names of friends he made, Toro reminisces on the comradery he experienced during service, including recreational activities like gambling that he chose not to participate in. basic training ; friends ; interviewer ; Fort Ord ; Vietnam ; hooch ; gambling ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; beer ; comradery ; cooks 0 3138 What More People Should Know About Veterans Toro wants more people to know about what veterans went through. He speaks about their lack of freedom, and how many people were not cut out for military service but nonetheless served. freedom ; soldier ; pacifist ; danger ; bravery ; military service 0 3235 Learning How to Become Independent After Military Service Toro describes how difficult it was to adapt to civilian life as an independent person. Since he was in his mid-twenties when he entered the military, he says that younger enlistees and conscripts would have a more difficult time readjusting than he did. independence ; dependence ; meals ; conflict ; military draft ; young people ; U.S. Armed Forces ; Expiration Term of Service 0 Oral history Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.785 --> 00:00:58.000 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Albert F Toro. Today's date is Friday, November 15th, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library at CSUSM, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Beyer, interviewee Albert F Toro, camera operator Adel Bautista, Marilyn Huerta, and Kathy Toro. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name—first, middle, and last name. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:02.865 Albert ; and middle initial, F ; and last name, Toro. 00:01:02.865 --> 00:01:04.245 The branch of service you were in? 00:01:04.245 --> 00:01:06.314 US Army. 00:01:06.314 --> 00:01:08.405 What was your highest rank attained? 00:01:08.405 --> 00:01:10.325 E5 Sergeant. 00:01:10.325 --> 00:01:12.394 And the war or conflicts you served in? 00:01:12.394 --> 00:01:14.424 The Vietnam conflict. 00:01:14.424 --> 00:01:22.135 So, I'm gonna begin by starting with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:22.135 --> 00:01:26.644 I was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. 00:01:26.644 --> 00:01:28.325 What was life like in Chile? 00:01:28.325 --> 00:01:32.405 Beautiful. I had a nice upbringing. 00:01:32.405 --> 00:01:36.000 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.495 No. 00:01:39.495 --> 00:01:44.034 Did you hold any jobs before you entered the military service? 00:01:44.034 --> 00:01:53.814 I was going to college at junior college, and I was drafted outta junior college. 00:01:53.814 --> 00:01:58.385 So you were drafted—could you tell me how you were drafted into the US Army? 00:01:58.385 --> 00:04:14.000 Well, at the event to come to the United States, and some of the forms that you fill out there is a little strip about an inch by 12 inches wide. And it says, "Upon the age of 18, you must register to the military service of the United States." And, so I sort of—you know—with time, I guess—I was working, going to college—and I never did have the intention not to register—that's a completely—disregard that fact. So around 1967, about—I think about three years later—I was notified a friendly with the—it was a letter in my apartment from the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation)—(Toro laughs)—saying that you have to register within a week. A couple weeks later—I registered—but a couple weeks later, I was called in for a physical for the—that was about—in September, I think I received the notice. And in December of 1966, I got the—I was inducted. I had a physical and I was inducted in the Armed Forces. And even though going to junior college—I guess—I didn't have the opportunity to defer. I was taking so many units and I was working at the same time. So I—at that time, I think the minimum requirement was 14 units for college, and I have 12. And, so I said—they gave me a choice, either serve or leave the country. So, you know, my ambitions were, you know, to serve—and not only that, because I wanna finish school and fill—you know, fulfill my dream to, you know, become a productive person in this country and also to be able to finish my college. So I—two years, I said, it's gonna be not too bad. And that was the way I started in the Armed Forces. I mean—I guess—the way I was drafted. Do I have to elaborate on that? 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:19.204 Did you have a choice in the branch of service that you joined? 00:04:19.204 --> 00:04:57.105 I did originally. I want to tell you something, that I heard so much about the Air Force, and I like electronics so much that I say, well, that'd be a big good a chance to—what do you call it—probably if I get drafted sometime in the future. That was my thought. So I applied to the Air Force—I remember that—but I never got a called. And they tell you, finish your high (school), finish your college, and then we'll talk. But that was kinda—I guess the Army had to step forward on me, you know, just—I got drafted and my choice—the only choice they gave me was Army. 00:04:57.105 --> 00:05:01.644 How did it make you feel that you were drafted. 00:05:01.644 --> 00:05:40.985 Because of my age, I feel a little—and also my school—I said, this is gonna have to be postponed for, you know, two years. And I wasn't that young, you know, I was 25. So I said, I'll be 27. And then when I said, probably when I come back to to school I'm gonna have to probably take again all the subjects that I was taking in college. And that happened, 'cause when I came back, I had to retake almost everything. And I lost another two years. But, you know, I don't have no regrets with—you know, I guess. 00:05:40.985 --> 00:05:47.685 For your early days of service during bootcamp, what type of training did you receive? 00:05:47.685 --> 00:06:58.235 I was infantry. So we did a lot of big walks. We did a lot of firing. A lot of, uh—what do you call—and the—Fort Ord was kind of tough because we had a lot of rain. So almost all our training was in the rain. At that time, that year it was really—it really rained the whole year long. Plus we had a meningitis issue, so our battalions—what they call, they were—we were located up in the new barracks—Fort Ord—and that was in the east side of what you call the base camp. The old barracks were right down by the Highway 1, the bottom of Monterey Peninsula. We were up on top and we were all restricted for the full training. To go to the movies, we have to go only—we were allowed to go all together—or whatever activities, PX (post exchange) and all that. We were all allowed to get as a platoon, you know, as a group. So we weren't restricted until AIT, the advanced individual training. But it was, you know, it was a lot of work (laughs). 00:06:58.235 --> 00:07:08.000 What is your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training and in school? 00:07:08.000 --> 00:08:26.415 On the training, the best part is when I left basic training. Basic training was, you know, it was hard. I mean, I'm 25 years old and you have a lot of young people, but I did fairly well. I could run, I could do all the stuff. And there I have some issues—you know, physical issues—but, I overcame those. And—but the most rewarding thing that I ever got—(long pause, Toro starts crying)—was in—it was in basic AIT, I had a lucky time to end up with an advance of a—I was in the on-the-job training as a supplier, and I was supposed to be in there for, I think it was about six or eight weeks—and I run into a very kind man, which was our battalion commander. He was named Captain Cunning, and he was like a father to me. And he helped me a lot with my career too. And he acknowledged my—you know—that I was capable to do the job and rewarded me with that. 00:08:26.415 --> 00:08:28.975 So he was one of your instructors? 00:08:28.975 --> 00:09:29.625 He was actually the—he was my commander. He was actually the commander because we were in an AIT unit. I was in a basic—I was in a AIT unit infantry. So we were training troops, and he was in charge of that unit, which was a platoon. It was—we have four platoons in that—I forget the name of it—I think it was "C-1-2" or something like that—that was the AIT. So we trained infantry people. They were ready to, you know, ready to go to the—and fight. So we trained—that was the last echelon on the training and forward the AIT events, individual training. So you will be preparing yourself to go to whatever the commitment was. But he was very—for being an officer for, you know, infantry—it was really a—what do you call—sort of thrown off because—so he wasn't—he was a tough man, but he was also kind. 00:09:29.625 --> 00:09:35.195 Did you qualify with any equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, or weapons? 00:09:35.195 --> 00:10:10.904 Well, I became a—in fact, I became an armorer, and I got awarded for being an outstanding armorer, taking care of the weapons on the company. There were 250—I think about 250, I guess, M14s (M14 rifle)—we trained with the M14 at that time. We didn't have the M16 (M16 rifle)—I guess it was not available in the 60s. And all need time to qualify. If you qualify an inventory, that is the only time that you could touch the M16. We qualified use of the M16. 00:10:10.904 --> 00:10:13.000 Did you receive any promotions? 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:42.553 Yeah. I was promoted to E4 Sergeant. I mean, actually it was—they promoted me to it because of the—it was the infantry and by MOS, which is my Military Operational Standard—was supplied, I could not be a corporal or a sergeant. So they make me a PFC-4 (Private First Class), but they gave me an acting jack. They gave me the two stripes of a corporal for that because of the training unit. 00:10:42.553 --> 00:10:49.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:49.105 --> 00:11:34.784 Well being spoiled, it was tough. You know, when you—because I was already 25, so I have my ways and you're pretty—you know, kind of independent. And I never thought that I was gonna be drafted. I was more like a civilian. So it was kind of hard. I feel a little like in confinement for me, for a while. I mean, especially when I was in Vietnam, because, you know, a long time for serving and—you know, it's difficult for a person like a civilian. They all of a sudden—they throw you in that—and I've always being pretty "I want to do my things my way." So it was tough. It was tough. But I followed, you know, the suit. I didn't fight it. 00:11:34.784 --> 00:11:42.514 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to. 00:11:42.514 --> 00:12:32.475 I just, become a civilian later on. But you get pretty much—you know, I think it is funny that even though being 25 and having my own things as a civilian, to end up for two years in the Armed Forces—and at the end, you depend a lot. That's another thing that I forgot to tell you, that sort of, you can—you start thinking still that someone is backing you up. Because when you're in the Army, you're following. You're not making your own decisions, really. You are more a follower. So, and then it gets difficult. Yeah, I'm a civilian now, and what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna get my four square meals a day, you know? So then you start thinking, and you have to get out of the mood. But yeah. 00:12:32.475 --> 00:12:40.034 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:12:40.034 --> 00:13:48.835 Well, the best—I think it was the—I guess, life, you know, as I became a—like I mentioned, when I was in the OJT (on-the-job training)—after my OJT, which is six weeks, I became permanent cadre. So I stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the—in the training unit that I was assigned to do my on-the-job training. And that's what I found—there was a lot of—you know, I think the people—I guess since you are cadre, you are in a different position than if you are a trainee. So there was a lot of camaraderie in there in the—among the—what do you call the cadre—the sergeants, the lieutenants. And there was a lot of like—you know, we could kid around. Instead of—when you're a trainee—when you're in training, you know, the officers and all that, they want some respect. So that become a little more lax. It was fun. I think I enjoyed the—Fort Ord was fun. I mean, not too much as when I—I guess when I went to Vietnam, that was a little tougher. Yeah. 00:13:48.835 --> 00:13:52.274 What war conflicts were you a part of? 00:13:52.274 --> 00:16:07.794 Well, in January of 1968, I end up in Tan Son Nhut, that is at Saigon. That was my starting at Vietnam. I forgot the term they used. I think it's ETS (Expiration Term of Service)—I think is the end of the term of service. But this is when I got—we got in Vietnam after a long trip, we end up in Tan Son Nhut, which is in Saigon, and we end up in the processing base in there. I think it's called Bearcat—I think it was called. And that's where they process all the Armed Forces. Basically it was mostly—I saw Army people. And we arrived sort of late in the evening. I don't remember having shower. I think that they took us to the barracks. I never forget that. And it was a gigantic base camp with all the—you know, these big barracks that they were two tier buildings. Usually they were made outta wood, and they get—because of mosquitoes they were surrounded by mosquito net mesh. And usually these barracks have a long haul, and they got all the bunkers, you know, lined up. You got probably here, probably downstairs, there were like 50 people. And upstairs, there was a two story. And I end up right underneath in the bottom. I don't think we have supper that night. I don't have a recall of that. But I remember one thing really clear, that that night we got hit. Badly, we got hit. And I really panic. I didn't know what to do. And we hide. I mean, I remember that we had this bunker made out of concrete, like a culvert. And I got under this place in there, and that was my first experience in Vietnam—late at nighttime. And oh my God, I said, this is gonna be tough. 00:16:07.794 --> 00:16:14.105 What were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were deployed in Vietnam? 00:16:14.105 --> 00:18:25.365 The only interaction we had usually was with the KP (kitchen police) people we had, and the girls and the young men, they had, were used for—you know, they help us, you know, with serving. And they were very nice people. They enjoyed—we used to teach them a lot. They were good people. And, since we were in—there were two bases—I ended up in Vietnam where I ended up in a base camp called Củ Chi, which north of Saigon is about 50 miles, and that was the 25th Infantry Division. So we—they have no access, we can't go nowhere. There's a town in the Củ Chi, and they say it was—the Viet Cong was right in there all the time, so there was no access to it. And I end up in a supply unit. So we used to supply food and ammunition to our—I end up in an artillery unit, which—but I end up in a battery called "the service." We used to service—food, weapons and whatever require in the field. And also we used to fix all the equipment for them. But I end up in the food—I end up in supply, supplying the troops for food so everything was flown off. From Củ Chi, there was no access to the outside world by—only flying. And I guess that was my experience there, supplying the troops. We used to fly all the sorties. I never flew out of Củ Chi, but we used to provide it to the helicopters and all that. Our artillery units were in the field. And our base camp was completely sealed from—what do you call—the outside world, although the town of Củ Chi was right next door. And I've seen in pictures now of pretty—it's kind of a large town today. But that was—I guess that was my—there was no out. I mean, I was in. So all my work was—for six months I spent in there just supplying, providing food for our battalion and flying sorties out to the field. 00:18:25.365 --> 00:18:30.243 How were your sleeping arrangements like? 00:18:30.243 --> 00:19:21.025 In Củ Chi we had hooches that were built of, you know, wood, tin roof. And I never forget that we had a storm one time—I'm going to tell you about that one, and that's interesting—because we got a storm, and the roof was thin, so it got blown off. So, and then of course, we got all wet in there. So at nighttime, at my cell was a couple more troopers. We end up up on the roof nailing the tin roof to prevent the water from going inside of the—(laughs)—inside of the hooch. And the place was pretty, you know, it was nice. It was, you know—we had a PX (post exchange)—we had not that many comforts but it was also—you know, like I said, we were restricted. 00:19:21.025 --> 00:19:24.545 Did you have any problems with wild animals or anything? 00:19:24.545 --> 00:20:17.025 We had a lot of—wild animals, yes. We had some snakes in there. I think that we found some of them is supposed to be—they call a viper. They were pretty deadly. But we never encounter. I didn't never encounter, because these people used to come around and I guess they used to fumigate and make sure that we were safe. They put all kinds of—they have the trap for the rats. We have rats. So in all the corners in there, we had—(laughs)—we had rat traps for what do you call—to prevent us, you know, to be in—I guess—bothered with these little creatures. But the tents were, you know, like I I mentioned, they were all floors with hardwood, and we were surrounded by mosquito nets around the air to protect us from—mosquito was a big issue in Vietnam. Yeah. 00:20:17.025 --> 00:20:20.105 Did the rats ever get inside your tents at all? 00:20:20.105 --> 00:20:52.795 No, we were lucky. And they were usually—the tents, they were—the buildings were about a foot off the ground, so we're (unintelligible) because when it rain in there we have a foot of water outside. And it will rain, and they will rain in there, and a foot of rain was nothing in a couple hours. And after that it will dry automatically. I guess that's what Vietnam is. I guess the water gets absorbed pretty quick. So you—after the rain, looks like it never ever rained. Yeah. 00:20:52.795 --> 00:21:01.865 Were you in combat, combat support, combat service support role, or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant? 00:21:01.865 --> 00:21:58.335 No, I was in the combat zone and we were supplying our artillery units—we have Alpha, Bravo and Charlie—and that was the thing: supply ammunition, ammo, plus food in the field. At that time, when I was in Củ Chi, I didn't fly any sorties. I was mostly involved in supplying the food—supplying the food for our existing unit, and plus, they're called the battalion. We have a battalion in there with all the sort of people that provided more support on the clerical side. So we had to supply for people—a hundred people—you know, supply all the food. And also the sorties were flown out by other—and ammo was also taken by what we used to call "the ammo-dumping people" to supply Howitzers in the field. So they used to go on convoys out of Củ Chi. 00:21:58.335 --> 00:22:01.005 Where else did you serve in Vietnam? 00:22:01.005 --> 00:22:27.674 I serve as a—I was a supply NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) for ammo. So I used to order the ammunition for the field for the Howitzers. And also I did a lot of food supply. We used to supply the food, so we had to fly sorties for food and ammo to the field. 00:22:27.674 --> 00:22:33.005 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:22:33.005 --> 00:23:51.035 There was not too much in there because when you're in Vietnam—I guess in the war—there are no weekends. So we did seven days a week. And usually we give us—on Sundays, usually the NCOs will go and cook for us. So we have a barbecue, and they will, you know, give us—and we were lucky because we were able to absorb some t-bone steaks in there, and some good hamburgers. So the NCOs and the commanders will cook for the troops. So that was a—it was usually, typically then about 5:00 PM, so we get the rest of the evening. And occasionally we had these conexes with that—so you probably remember that—you're interviewing me, and I know you're familiar with the—conexes are these metal containers. And inside we have a projector, so sometime we used to get movies. And we got one of The Green Berets movies. And I never forget that with John Wayne. And people were laughing so much about it, because you're in a war zone and you got a green beret. Do you remember that? Probably you remember that, about John Wayne in there. And that was the funniest thing in the world, I think that hit me. Yeah. 00:23:51.035 --> 00:23:57.724 What kinds of friendships and camaraderie did you form while serving and with whom, while you were in Vietnam? 00:23:57.724 --> 00:28:54.025 I had a—I think it was Sergeant—oh my God, I can't remember his name right now, with all this. There was a sergeant in there that sort of was my protege, and he was from Idaho, I think. And he—Sergeant Johnson was one of them. Sergeant Johnson—let me go back—he was a—it's a first sergeant. He was in charge. He was pretty keen on me because of—for being, I guess—I was born in Chile, so he was kind of keen on me that he couldn't understand why I was serving in the Armed Forces. He used to tell me, "Oh I can't believe this." And the other ones—I can't remember his name, and he was the one who actually helped me a lot. He was an E6. He was an ammunition—what do you call—NCO? And he took me under his arms, and I become his clerk. So I used to run the runs for him, I used to ride on—the phone was Vietnamese, but they have a little translation in English, which it says what came of ammo we were getting for our Howitzers. So he gave me the task to run to town. This is moving to when I was in Cần Thơ—this is South Vietnam by the Mekong Delta. And he assigned me—"You're gonna write all the forms for the ammo, and you're gonna go and wait." And there were Vietnamese—we had to get from the south—from the ARVNs (Army of the Republic of Vietnam)—we have to get the ammo, believe me or not. So the ammo dump was in the charge of the South Vietnamese Army. So they used to make me wait in there. I sat in there in the office, looking at the officer. He—the only thing I have to do, sign the paper. So he made me wait in there for an hour or so until he decided to sign the paper. And I got them, and I went over there and I start—we go, you know—we went over to the ammo dump to get out ammo. But that was—every time I went over there, every time I had this, it was kind of a—how do you call them? It was kind of a thing that he had for us, that we have to wait, even though he signed the document. But he made us wait. I waited for an hour. I was—I used to smoke, but I quit smoking. Good thing I did. So I waited. I waited in there for this officer to sign the paper and let me go. And then the funny thing about this is—and then we go to the ammo dump, and the ARVNs—which is a regular Vietnamese army—they don't like us at all. So, and then we go in there and this big Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) to load up the ammo. And then they used to give us challenges. They used to sort of challenge us. I mean, to get in to some kind of a scheme. It was kinda weird. It was like a—it was sort of a—what you call it—it was a ritual that we have to go through. Every time we go for ammo, we have to go through that ritual. I mean, for these people, they used to tease us. I don't think they want to fight with us, but they were teasing us—doing some karate movements and all that. It was funny. You wouldn't believe it. And that sergeant told me—disregard this, you know, I forgot the name of—I can't remember what the name is. I hope it comes. But he was great. He helped me a lot too, because he's the one that kept me from going—really—I was almost end up in the field, but he said, "I need you in here." So he kept me in the base camp. But we had to—we had to fly sorties, but we also had to go on convoys many, many times to, you know, deliver the ammo. Because all our artillery units were in the field. Some of them were way out in, you know, helicopter flight, but some other ones—the roads were really tough because they have to clear the roads because they had landmines. So we waited for all the traffic. These guys were really smart. When I was in Cần Thơ, we had to cross the river, the Mekong Delta, and go to the field that was miles away. And the roads were really—there was nobody in the road, you see? There were all the—the roads were all—they were not paved—were all like granite compacted. And we're all riding on top of rice paddies in there. And you can see the buffaloes in there, and you can see people, you know, the farmers in there, in the road. But always there was a fear of landmines. So we went over in the road when everything was clear, we thought, and we saw a lot of things in there. We saw buses with civilians, and they're blown up. And we were lucky we never got hit. So we deliver—we have batteries, you know, like—this was Charlie Battery. It was—I can't remember the name of the city that we were located. It was another city. It was rice—it was a rubber plantation. Beautiful—beautiful rubber plantation. I remember, I'll never forget, it was like the French left it in there. It was really incredible. And the roads were amazing. I mean, the roads were not amazing. It's just that the scenery around us, because we were in a base camp all the time, to go out in the field and take a risk, It was something else. I mean, sort of like, I want to get outta here, I wanna see something else. But you saw a lot of, you know, a lot of bad things in the road too. Yeah. 00:28:54.025 --> 00:29:00.605 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:29:00.605 --> 00:29:22.345 Yeah. My parents were in Chile, South America—all of them. So they really suffered from this. They weren't too appreciative, I guess, that I made the choice to, you know, stay and serve. So that was really hard for my parents—where we come from a large family, seven kids. 00:29:22.345 --> 00:29:28.244 Was there something that you did for good luck while you were in Vietnam? 00:29:28.244 --> 00:30:38.424 I tried to be good with the—oh, yeah—I always like people, you know, even though I'm not an Army type to be rough and tough. So I'm always being—what do you call that—I thought about the other people. Like, you know, I was a Sergeant in charge of a guard, and I tried to treat my, you know, my people with a lot of respect. Not treating my, you know—I never wanted to feel like I was in command. I feel more like I want to be their friend. So I used to bring them—when we were in the—we have like a guard duty. I was—because I was an NCO—I was in charge of the whole platoon that was in front on the foxholes and also in the shelters in the front of—we were guarding a big airfield in Cần Thơ. And I always brought them, you know, food, make sure they weren't sleepy at night and all that. So trying to make things easy on them. And that was the most rewarding thing to me, that they feel comfortable with me. So, they feel trusted, you know? 00:30:38.424 --> 00:30:44.845 Do you recall any particularly unusual events while you were in Vietnam? 00:30:44.845 --> 00:33:02.615 Yep. I'll never forget this one here. When I was in—we were supposed to guard an airfield in Cần Thơ. This was the landing pad. And we had all the Cobra helicopters (Bell AH-1 Cobra), so we had to protect all that area. But we were right in the front of the airfield, which was facing the jungle. And we have towers in there, and we have satellites on top—scopes. So I have a kid up there that was calling me that was scared. So, and then I went over there and it was raining. And it was raining so high that I almost got washed off. I didn't want to take the Jeep around it. So I left the Jeep. I had a Jeep, and I have all my—what do you call—black light. I mean, have all my, the lights down, you know, the—what do you call them? I forgot the name of—you keep all your lights on it on the—there's a switch, it turns the lights off, and they go into a nocturnal—what do you call—thing. So in case you cannot be seen. So I left the jeep behind, and I got in the—I started walking on it—and I almost got washed off in the perimeter in there to the barbed wire. I got up in there, and then somehow we got—started getting some sniper fire from the outside. And I had a kid on this tower—30 feet tall tower—and he—this guy jumped down and he didn't break his leg. He panic. He jumped from this tower. Would you believe that? I was scared too, because I was washed off. I almost lost my M16 because I carrying a weapon—and I carry also since Sergeant guard usually carries a .45 (.45 caliber handgun). And I said, I was glad that I made it. I mean, I just got to the barbed wire, held on until the water run—and I got up and I went and take a look at this kid that—he jumped all the way from 30 feet up, and he didn't break his legs. And I said, "Well, stay here. We're gonna stay here." And that was about the most scary thing that I ever had, you know? And this kid had jump, he panicked because they shot at him. He was shot—up in the tower. Instead of staying there—there was sandbags, but he was scared and he couldn't handle it. 00:33:02.615 --> 00:33:06.994 Could you tell me about the story of you sleeping on a truck? 00:33:06.994 --> 00:34:57.824 Well, when we got to our new base camp—from Northern Vietnam we went down to south—we end up in Cần Thơ and, we end up this—Cần Thơ was—at the airfield only, there was not pretty well established yet. So what they did—from the Mekong Delta, they used to suck up all the sand from the Mekong Delta and make a plateau. That was a basic base for the base camp—for this new landing strip. So there was absolutely nothing in there. So we end up in tents and it was raining. And the tents, you can't even walk inside because it was mud in the floor, and we have cots. So I decided to sleep in the—I slept in the in the Deuce-and-a-Half—that was my supply truck. And I spent in there three months sleeping in the truck. And I enjoyed it, because all the other people were on the—you know—wet tents and the floor—because we were—there was no floor. And I was sleeping in the truck in the front for three months. I slept in the Deuce. And that was tough. It was hard because it has a canvas—padding is canvas and metal. There's a thing in the middle. And there, I never forget it, It was my friendly thing. It was a metal piece that was hitting me in the back every night (laughs)—there was a division in between the two seats. And after that we slept until I left we have tents. And the plan was to build hooches, as they call 'em. You know, there were like, buildings on top of, you know, about a foot or two off the ground. And they were with mosquito nets. And that was another issue that mosquitoes will eat you alive. I had all these issues with them (laughs). Yeah, it was tough. 00:34:57.824 --> 00:35:06.525 So, towards the end of your service, do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:35:06.525 --> 00:36:08.000 I was in—I was a—still—they gave me—actually before my ending my service, they gave us two weeks off. But my two weeks off, I didn't have to do absolutely nothing. But I have to do one thing: guard duty. So I have to pull every day guard. That was a break. So I slipped—I could do whatever I wanna do during the daytime, but in the base camp, like in Cần Thơ, it was not too much to do. I mean, there was a little town in there. I didn't care too much about it to go to town. There was a—what is it called—the—my goodness, I forgot the name of the club for the Armed Forces, where they used to serve beer and hamburgers. And, they used to cook for us. And then that was in a little town. And that was the—oh my goodness, I can't remember—that was one of the services the Armed Forces provided for us. It was outside, like in a big town like Saigon, they will have like a—it's like a club— 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.755 —Like an enlisted club? 00:36:09.755 --> 00:36:45.065 Yeah. But it's—yes. Only for the Armed Forces. And they'll have, you know, drinks, like—not alcoholic—like coke, you could have a hamburger, and they have like a day room that you can probably sit and read. And that was the city of Cần Thơ. And that was one of the places—but I stayed mostly in the base camp. And when I was getting short, I became a little more coward because I want to live. So I didn't wanna expose myself too much. 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:45.844 Did you— 00:36:45.844 --> 00:36:58.585 —You know what I mean? I mean, it's not being a coward, it just self preservation. I say, if I survive this for so long, I want to be here. You know, I don't want to take a chance going to town and, you know, being a fool, you know? 00:36:58.585 --> 00:37:03.284 Did you return home or where did you go? 00:37:03.284 --> 00:37:41.275 When I—end the term of the service term, I end up in the San Francisco area. There was an Air Force base that we did the ETS, because that was the end of the term. And my plan was to go back to L.A.—Los Angeles—and, you know, finish my college—that was my first goal. And probably return home—I was born in Chile—to see my family that I didn't—I didn't see them for about six years. So that my first goal was to go there. 00:37:41.275 --> 00:37:46.684 What was it like for you when you stepped foot back in the United States in San Francisco? 00:37:46.684 --> 00:38:50.704 Oh, I was—well, people were kissing the ground, you know. They were, I saw it. The people, some GIs that went down on their feet. I saw them. All the ones that—there was a really bad attitude too. Most of the people didn't want to go back to their families, you know, I don't know why. That was really bad. I noticed that I—what are you gonna do? Because I met a lot of guys in there. They said, "Well, I don't want to go. I have some issue with my family." So some of them said, "What are you gonna do? I'm gonna stay in San Francisco—in here." And it was a really strange attitude. I can tell you. I mean, I said, "You're not close with them? You don't have no family?" "No, I don't get along with them," and so forth. So that was really sad to hear that. And some people—I don't know why—I guess the war makes you strange too. You know, people—I don't know—it was like a demise on everything. I know I want to see my family. That was the first thing. Because, you know, I was drafted outta college and I wanted—and I didn't see my parents for almost six years. They were in South America. They were in Chile. So I said that was my main goal: to go and see them. 00:38:50.704 --> 00:38:54.684 How were you received by your family and community upon returning? 00:38:54.684 --> 00:39:27.744 Oh my God—they wouldn't let me come back. Yeah, yeah. And I end up in summer in South America's. It's just beautiful, especially Chile—you know, we're a big family. So I end up—I didn't want to come back—but I said I got my things to do. So that was my—I spent about three months in Chile I think after—yeah, three, almost. And, but I want to come back. I wanna finish my school. My goal. That's my whole ideas—and do my thing in here, because I planned that since I was a kid. I always dream about to come here. 00:39:27.744 --> 00:39:32.804 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or go back to school? 00:39:32.804 --> 00:40:02.184 I went back to school and then I start—I went back to school at the beginning. Yes, I did go back to the—I got my GI Bill and I started going to, you know, finish my junior college. That was my first goal—and—which I did. And then, I liked the aerospace industry in defense, so that's what I—that was my goal, too—to go back to work for them. Which I did. 00:40:02.184 --> 00:40:07.264 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:40:07.264 --> 00:43:23.804 You know, I didn't. People were from other states—most of the people that was in Vietnam. I—in fact, it was really strange because I was in Torrance, California, and there was a—in Torrance, California, there's a lot of refineries, and there was a gas station that I used to go—I worked for a company called TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.), which we did, you know, defense contracts, aerospace, and all that. So this day I stop in this gas station, and guess what? I run in to one of people that I was in Vietnam. He was a mechanic in our motor pool. I used to go over there, and I teased him all the time—he and the sergeant—this guy was a redhead guy, I don't remember his name. And I said, "Do you remember me?" And I see he looked at me and I said, you remember such and such. And I asked him a question: "What happened to Cần Thơ?" I asked him. "Oh, we got a run in here in Tet Offensive. We did well." Because I left before the Tet Offensive. But there was not a—what do you call—there was not a contact. I said—I wish the guy would say, "Hey, let's get together or something." It was like, "Hey, see you now. See you later." You know, that was the only thing. So there was a lot of camaraderie when I was there. You know, people—in fact, when I was in Vietnam, you know what I did outta ammunition boxes? I helped to build a bar. I built a bar myself with a sergeant that, I can't remember his name. He was my protege. Big guy. He was from the south, like I said, again—and I hope I remember his name, to keep him in record because he was—he helped me a lot. So, our ammunition boxes for the Howitzers, we filled them up with sand and we built a bar. We built a building. We put a building. And I was—my skills, since I was supply, I used to go out and get the plywood. They used to have a plywood where they put the sorties when they put the ammo in the helicopter. They have two holes on the side. They brought probably six by six planks—you probably remember those (points at interviewer)—and then I did the roof with that. And then we got some—I guess—some plastic roofing from dealing with—I used to trade C-rations for all these items that we are speaking of. And there was some guy that knew a carpenter out of town in Cần Thơ. He built the bar out of the plywood we got. So we built a beautiful bar out of that. And I never forget that one. And in the front, we have a muzzle of a Howitzer. That was our—the symbol of artillery right in there, I never forget. I got pictures. I think I got the pictures. I don't think that I have the pictures, because I lost—all those pictures that I took in that area in Cần Thơ I lost in the camera that I bought. I lost I don't know how many rolls of film I lost, but I had a great time helping. And I have free drinking on that bar until I left. Would you believe that? (Toro laughs.) 00:43:23.804 --> 00:43:27.585 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:43:27.585 --> 00:46:51.704 No, I didn't. It kind of—you know, I think most of the people who came from Vietnam were kind of ostracized. You remember that? We kinda insulted. 'Cause I get insulted and you—like I mentioned over at—when I left Travis (Travis Air Force Base) up in San Francisco, some guy say something about, Are you the, you know, baby killers or something like that. Twice. I have that—another one in L.A. So sort of lost the—how would you say—the interest, you know? And I didn't want to know anybody. I never mentioned that I was in the Army until they recognized us. You know, people being more onto our side. I felt—I never spoke of it. You know, never even at work—people never. I never talked to my kids about anything. My wife (shakes his head), you know—I think most of the Vietnam veterans, we were sort of sour at the end. Because they got—I saw a lot of heroes. I saw amazing people. You won't believe it. I mean, like, you guys (points at interviewer), like my interviewer in here. You know that—you know—people—amazing. Amazing soldiers and especially infantry. Yeah. I can tell you some issues in there. You wouldn't believe it. There was an infantry unit in—I never forget this one. We were—I was in the—taking a—coming out of the shower, and we had this group of soldiers that came over. They were all infantry. And they have a baboon. This guy had a baboon—they have a monkey. And that monkey was a dog. And these guys were in the field, and these guys were so raggedy—you wouldn't believe it. These guy were like long range patrols. They were like—they called them LRRPs (long-range reconnaissance patrol). I don't know if you heard about them. It's a unit—I guess—and they go at nighttime. They go out of the base camps and they start doing search and destroy. So they see—because usually our base camp was surrounded by—you know, the Viet Cong was out there. And these guys had the monkey—this monkey, this baboon, it was like a dog. He held sense. Anybody moving—there was not—in fact, I remember approaching this monkey, and the NCO told me, Don't get close, he'll get you. It was a great baboon. It's a monkey. And that was a dog—guard dog for these people. It was amazing. And these people were attached. They were not attached to our—the 25th Infantry division that I belonged to—they were not. They were like a bastard battalion. And so they were doing all this reconnaissance, and they were amazing, these people. I can—you know—there were some—there were some good soldiers. And we came back for the really—most of them came back with a really bad attitude, because we were treated like, you remember—I don't know if you guys know—probably we treated a little like we didn't—we were not wanted. Yeah. But they recognized us—luckily—later on, they recognized us—you know, Vietnam veterans. But most of them, they really—we were really sour, all of the ones that I knew. So I hide my identity. Yeah, I was in the army, but I never mentioned that. What do you call that? I was—that I served in Vietnam and so forth. And people didn't care really. You know, the new generation. My kids never ask me until later on about what that—what you did, what you went through. 00:46:51.704 --> 00:46:58.284 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:46:58.284 --> 00:48:27.875 I makes—I think of, you know—at the beginning after coming out, you know, you don't have a sense of pride. You became—you have a sense of pride after people recognize you. That's the only problem. You feel more guilty—you know—at the beginning when you get out because, you know, we not recognized. So there was an effort, you know, for them to say, "Hey, you know, thanks for your service." I started getting the thanks for your service later on in life, you know—way back. And mostly the people that approached me were veterans. You know, that they told us that. People—you know, the American soldiers are amazing. I tell you that—what I saw in Vietnam. To survive all that junk we went through and then not be recognized—and then left the country like that. That's the thing. It hurts the most, you know, being like treated the way they treated the people. They—you know—people like the soldiers—the American soldiers, I mean—the kids were great, but the attitude—the outside attitude was really bad. It was really bad toward us. And that's what it really hurt—a lot of people. I mean, we were doing what the country ask you for, you know, but they—you go and serve and do the best you can, and then you come all out like we were—actually, you remember My Lai (The My Lai massacre) and all that—like we were criminals. 00:48:27.875 --> 00:48:33.405 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:48:33.405 --> 00:49:20.554 I guess the friendship. There's a lot of friendship, you know, in there. Sometimes you don't feel like all by yourself. You know, that. And also it used a little discipline, because there was a lot of kids when I was in the army—I was in Fort Ord—that they were in trouble with the law somehow. And they were near serving because of that. You know, in my training unit in Fort Ord, they were a lot of kids that were—what they call them—Cat 4?. They have a name—I think category four. So these guys were—somehow they have some trouble with the law. So they have a choice either to serve or to end up in jail. And they were young kids. They were not adults—you know, in the eighteens. Yeah. 00:49:20.554 --> 00:49:29.005 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:49:29.005 --> 00:50:04.465 Oh, the experience teach you—I learned one thing that—to survive, that's the thing. You have to survive. And you know, when you are in the war and you're—and you have to serve—you have to survive. And there's not too much you can do. And what you can do for yourself is be yourself. Because nobody else—when you're in a situation—as my interviewer knows too—at this point I'm gonna use that as—you are the only one in there. You. And you can't count on anybody else. 00:50:04.465 --> 00:50:05.000 How did—(Toro and Beyer accidentally speak simultaneously.) 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:05.989 —Excuse me— 00:50:05.989 --> 00:50:06.000 Sorry. 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:26.704 You can't count on anybody else, but you know that you're supported. But that is your life at stake in there. I mean, you're the only one that can—you know, you don't know what is gonna happen in that moment. I mean, you look for the risk, but the only things you think at that time are you, you know? How you gonna react to this? That's what I'm trying to say. 00:50:26.704 --> 00:50:33.125 How did you become associated with the San Marcos community? 00:50:33.125 --> 00:50:51.295 Well, was through my neighbor, Jason. He brought me to this in here, because I never thought I was gonna be interviewed. He's a former also gallant Armed Forces. He served many conflicts. 00:50:51.295 --> 00:51:05.074 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:51:05.074 --> 00:52:18.074 Well, like I said, I wish if I could remember the names, but there's a lot of—you know, I think I had a—at the beginning, you know, in basic training, I made a lot of good friends. You know, and then they departed all their ways. I don't remember their names, but I have some pictures that you have—some other records in there. I think my interviewer has a picture of it. He was a—great people. I met some fine people. And when I was in Fort Ord, I did—and when I was also overseas and in Vietnam, I did meet a lot of people who had a lot of fun—especially on night times in our hooch—(laughs)—when they have the beer parties in there, and we used to—what do you call the, you know—I was very conservative. I don't gamble. And so I used to send all my money to my bank in L.A.—(laughs)—all the little that I earned. But the other—my older friends that used to love—they used do to a lot of gambling in there. My God, it was amazing. They have a lot of fun in between the beers and the—we had a lot of great time in the Hooch. That was the best time in the—the comradery. Yeah. In Vietnam. Yeah, there was a lot of that. And the biggest gamblers were the cooks—(laughs)—that's what I remember. 00:52:18.074 --> 00:52:23.684 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:52:23.684 --> 00:52:29.295 What they going through. Yeah. What they going through. 00:52:29.295 --> 00:52:31.005 Could you elaborate on that? 00:52:31.005 --> 00:53:55.985 I mean, the do's and don'ts. The way you lose your freedom. You're not anymore in charge you of your future. I mean, someone else got your hands on. So that was my only thing—you know—you gotta serve and you're not an instrument, but you are a tool—you know, to help, I guess, the conflict. But they—you don't have too much to say. Some people are—they're born to be a soldier and—you know—and they're strong. And some people, they're a little in between. They're more—I guess, a pacifier—pacifist. And those are the ones that have a hard time. But they all serve. And that is a—that is a difficult time. I mean, for the people that don't have the—even though if you're brave, you have your feelings. I mean, you know, when danger is—your life at a stake—you know, the bravery, it counts—but you know that, Hey, I gotta survive this one. And some people are a little weak, and those are the ones that suffer. And they have to be protected because they're not meant to serve, but they served. And I see a lot of people like that. They served and they were—they—I mean—they were not happy they were doing—but they served. 00:53:55.985 --> 00:54:05.445 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:54:05.445 --> 00:55:20.735 Well, they teach you—I think they make you more independent too—I think. But being independent is very difficult. You know, after my two years, I didn't know what to do because I've been always, you know, four square meals a day. So I have a little conflict in there. So you gotta get out of that one and say, What am I gonna do now that I'm outside. But I already was outside, you know? I was drafted when I was already working and I had my own—so I have my goals. So I think for younger people it's more difficult. They were 18 and they—they have some conflict—that's why they end up in the armed forces—and they'll be very difficult to readjust. And those are the ones that I saw. And when I left the Armed Services and I was up in my ETS—end of the term of my service—they didn't know what to do with themselves. Yeah. That was one of the things that I was really sad. And I was more mature, I guess—my age. I was 25 when I left. I was 24 when I got drafted—26 I got—actually, I'm sorry I'm changing. It was almost 27 when I end my—my ETS was 27. So I was a little more mature, so I see the weight—but those people, they have a very difficult time to adjust. I know that. 00:55:20.735 --> 00:55:22.445 Thank you for your time today. 00:55:22.445 --> 00:55:23.945 Okay, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-073 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961–1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Woody Guthrie OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael Joel. Interview, October 21, 2025. SC027-088 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Woody Guthrie Joan Baez Joel Rafael Band Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Okemah, Oklahoma Laura Nelson Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2892396c100240bc8d1a92ba1e46a1c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 108 Highlights of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael highlights two activities of the Joel Rafael Band including performing as the opening act for Joan Baez' tour of the southwest United States. Joan Baez ; Joel Rafael Band ; John Steinbeck ; The Grapes of Wrath ; Skirball Cultural Center ; Way Over Yonder in the Minor Key ; Salinas, California ; Los Angeles, California ; Woody Guthrie ; Jamaica Rafael ; Carl Johnson ; Hopper ; Austin, Texas ; Doc Martens 0 926 Dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael discusses the breakup of the Joel Rafael Band and reflects on the definition of success. Joel Rafael Band ; songwriters ; success 0 1125 Developing knowledge of Woody Guthrie Rafael speaks about his growing knowledge of Woody Guthrie's life and music and the various sources he used to gain that knowledge. Woody Guthrie ; Pete Seeger ; This Land Is Your Land ; Billy Bragg ; American communist movement ; Merchant Marines ; Bob Dylan ; Songs to Grow On ; Santa Monica, California ; Alan Lomax ; Will Geer ; Library of Congress recordings ; Nora Guthrie ; Dance a Little Longer 0 2270 The Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Rafael discusses the beginnings of the Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival in Okemah, OK, and how he became involved with it. Rafael played the Festival twenty-seven times. Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival ; Bound for Glory ; Okemah, Oklahoma ; Huntington's Disease ; Woody Guthrie: A Life ; Joe Klein 0 2914 The lynching of Laura Nelson Rafael tells the story of the lynching of Laura Nelson and her son in Okemah, OK. Woody Guthrie's song, Don't Kill My Baby and My Son, is based on this story. Joel searched for several years for the location of the lynching and finally found it. Laura Nelson ; lynching ; bridge ; Woody Guthrie ; Pretty Boy Floyd ; 1913 Massacre ; Hard-Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit People ; Don't Kill My Baby and My Son ; Ku Klux Klan ; Tulsa Race Riot A Report ; Boley, Oklahoma ; sharecroppers 0 4495 Woody Guthrie review show Rafael discusses his role in the Woody Guthrie review show, The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway. Jimmy LaFave ; New York City ; The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway ; narrator 0 Oral history Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:21.984 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is October 21, 2025. This interview is taking place at Joel Rafael's studio at his home in Escondido, California. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:21.984 --> 00:00:23.824 Of course. Thank you. 00:00:23.824 --> 00:00:38.274 So, at our last interview, we left off with the Joel Rafael Band. So could you tell me a little bit more about the band, what you were working on, and what happened with the dissolution of the band? 00:00:38.274 --> 00:14:19.763 Well, I just say that it's pretty difficult, I think, to keep any band or musical group together for an extended period of time unless there are things that happen that inspire people to want to keep going 'cause it's a lot of work. And so, I would say the duration of the Joel Rafael Band was just under ten years that we worked together, and we had some really interesting tours. We played a lot of festivals. Eventually--probably around turn of the century going into the first few years of the two thousands--people in the band, other members of the band besides myself started to develop some other interests and started to work towards some personal projects. And it just made it more difficult ultimately to keep the continuity of a group 'cause people were just off on their own, on their own projects. But there's a couple things that we did that I'd like to highlight before we sort of end the chapter on the Joel Rafael Band. And one of those things was in about 2002, somebody, the guy who was the director, and I can't remember his name right now, we can probably research that 'cause he's not the director anymore. But he was, at the time, the director of the Steinbeck Center in Salinas, California. And they were approaching the centennial year of John Steinbeck's birth. And so they were doing some special events and programs. And one of the things they were gonna' be doing is presenting The Grapes of Wrath, the Frank Galati adaptation for theater, of The Grapes of Wrath, as a radio play in Los Angeles at the Skirball Theater (Skirball Cultural Center), which is right next to the Getty Museum. And they have a beautiful theater there. And they asked me if I would--he had heard some of the Woody Guthrie tunes that I had recorded, even though my album, first album of Woody Guthrie Tunes wasn't out yet. He'd heard one of the songs, which was the Billy Bragg-Woody Guthrie co-write, Way Over Yonder in the Minor Key on, I think it's on Hopper is where he heard the song, which came out around 2000. And they really liked it and liked my approach to the Guthrie music. And they asked me if I would write original music for the centennial performance of The Grapes of Wrath at the Skirball by the L.A. Theater Works. And so, got together with the cast, which starred Shirley Knight, the late Shirley Knight. She was an amazing, amazing person. Just a sidebar, after she had passed away, I found out that another big influence on my art and my creativity, a guy named John Cooper--a painter that I met when I was living in Washington--he's probably like fourteen years older than me. And he's passed away now, too. But I was telling him about The Grapes of Wrath program. I was gonna' send him a copy of it. And I mentioned that Shirley Knight had starred it. And he told me that, Oh, she was my girlfriend when we were in college. So I thought that was kind of a good side note. But anyway, she was a wonderful person, wonderful to work with. And what we did is we did seven radio play performances of the play at the Skirball Theater. And they recorded the audio for all seven performances along with the music that we played throughout the performance. And then they took those seven performances and edited that into one performance that was then released with, in a program called The Theater's the Thing (the Play's the Thing), which is a syndicated radio program that the L.A. Theater Works puts on. They do a number of plays throughout the year, and then they present these radio plays that then air it on like PBS stations. That kind of thing. And so, we were really proud to do the music for that. That was basically myself, my daughter, Jamaica Rafael, and Carl Johnson, my guitar player. So it was the three of us that did those shows. And then the other really cool thing that we did with the Joel Rafael Band, right towards the end, was we had put out our first recording of all Woody Guthrie songs called Woodeye. And it's kind of an interesting story, so I'm gonna' go ahead and tell it. I had finished the album, and we'd had it pressed. It wasn't distributed. We just had like a thousand copies of this album, Woodeye, and Joan Baez was playing in San Diego at Humphreys. And so, we got a couple tickets to go to the show, my wife and I, and we went to the show, and I took a copy of Woodeye along just on the chance that I might be able to see Joan and give her a copy of my Woody Guthrie record. That didn't happen. But while we were sitting in the audience--and we were, had really good seats, we were like a third or fourth row--I was sitting next to a little girl. She was probably ten years old, maybe nine or ten years old, and her father was next to her. And somehow, I don't know how, we got onto the conversation, but I asked her at a certain point if she knew who Woody Guthrie was. And she did because she and her dad were Joan Baez fans. They had come down from Los Angeles to see Joan play. And so, when she made it clear that she knew who Woody Guthrie was, she's only nine years old, I thought, well, I'm just gonna' give her the CD. So I gave her the CD, and her and her dad listened to it on their way home. So the next day, I got a call from this guy, the father, his name's Larry Shapiro, and he called me up--got my number somehow 'cause I don't think it was on the record, but somehow, maybe my, my website was on the record, somehow he got my number. Maybe he wrote me an email. It's a long time ago now. So, he contacted me the next day and said that they'd listened to the recording on the way home, and that they loved the recording, and he wanted to know if it was distributed, and I told him no, it wasn't distributed, that we were self-distributed. So we were basically putting it in places on consignment, that kind of thing. And he said, Well, my best friend is the president of ADA record distribution, which is like ADA global (Worldwide). It's the biggest distributor, you know. And so, he said that he had a small label, and he would--it was like a boutique label called Nine Yards Records. And he said, We'd like to put your record out. So I put him in contact with my manager, and initially, before Inside Recordings put out my double set of Woody albums, Larry Shapiro and Nine Yards Records put out the initial release of Woodeye, the first album. And as part of that--I don't know how he did it--but somehow he arranged for us to be the opening act for Joan Baez, who was going out on a southwest tour of the U.S. So she was gonna' be playing like California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. And so, we ended up getting that opening act, and we had--our first show was at UCLA, and then from there we went to, I think it was like Scottsdale (Phoenix), and played the Celebrity Theater with Joan Baez. And then from there we went to New Mexico, and we played in Albuquerque and Santa Fe. And then we went from there to Austin and played Austin, Texas. So we rented a van, like a conversion van with a camper in it. And the four of us set off on tour, kind of tagging with Joan Baez. They were in their bus. And so, they had a bus driver and everything, and we were self-driven. But anyways, we followed them along on the tour. And that was probably about the biggest performances that the Joel Rafael Band did during the time that we were together as a group, was with Joan Baez. And a couple little anecdotes about Joan, 'cause I just think they're kind of fun and interesting because she's just a really interesting--kind of an enigma--but a very interesting person. First off, they always ask you when you go on tour what you'd like to have on your rider, which means when you get to the show, it's like, any kind of food or any kind of comfort you might want to have there. The promoter will ask you to submit a rider, which we did. But as an opening act, we never got anything that was on our rider. It's like we would get to the shows, to the venues, and there wouldn't be anything for us except the dressing room, you know? So right off the bat, Joan's management and Joan basically told us, Look, we have a really good rider. And when we get to the theater, there's always--not the meal, but a snack. Like, there'll usually be a tureen of soup, china dishes, cloth napkins, and silverware (laughter), and some snacks to eat before soundcheck. And they just wanted to let us know that we were completely welcome to their area when we got to the theater, knowing that anything on our rider was never gonna' be fulfilled (laughter). So they were very generous. She was very generous in that respect. I had a pair of shoes that I was wearing for that tour. They were Doc Martens, but they weren't the regular black Doc Martens, they were kind of like these special custom Doc Martens. They were like wingtips, and they were two colors. They were like red and green, sort of candy apple red and then sort of this Kelly green with a what do you call it? I'm trying to think what the name of those shoes are. Wingtip. So they had the wingtip designs on them, and Joan noticed them right away (laughter). And she said, I really like your shoes. She said, I'm really into shoes, and where did you get those? And I said, Oh, they're Doc Martens. And she said, I really like those. Well, then the next day I passed her backstage at the next theater, and she said, I love those shoes. I wear size seven- and-a-half (laughter). I don't know if I told you this story yet or not. Anyways, I made a note of it. Okay. Oh, cool. She wears size seven-and-a-half. Okay. And then the other thing about her is that every night, every show that we played--and I think we did five shows with her--when we were sound checking, she would show up at the monitor board over on the side of the stage. All of a sudden, we noticed Joan was standing there by the monitor guy listening to us play our songs. Well, I backtrack. She'd be in the theater for our sound checks, like the theater's empty, and all of a sudden, one person comes walking in the theater, and it's Joan Baez. And she sits down in the theater and listens to us play our songs during our sound check and then claps (laughter)--one person in the theater. So she made a made a point of letting us know how welcome we were and that she liked us, you know? Then when we would actually do our show, our opening act, our first and second song. We would look over, and Joan would be standing with the monitor guy at the monitor board listening to our first two songs. And then right after the first two songs, she would leave to go get ready for her show. But every night she came out and listened to our first two songs and would stand there and applaud for us from the side of the stage. So she was just really, really a treasure to work with, such an icon and an early influence of mine. So in a way, I've been fortunate, not just with Joan Baez, but I've been fortunate enough to meet some of my biggest influences and share the stage with some of my musical heroes. So when we got back from the tour, I went and I found a pair of those shoes for Joan Baez and I sent them to her-- 00:14:19.763 --> 00:14:20.458 Nice, nice. 00:14:20.458 --> 00:14:43.865 So that's my Joan Baez story. And then the other thing we did was the Steinbeck thing. Those are two really great things we did with the Joel Rafael Band. And that kind of ended our run was--right around 2003 were probably the very last shows that we played together. 00:14:43.865 --> 00:14:49.007 So, let me ask, your daughter, Jamaica, was part of the Joel Rafael Band-- 00:14:49.007 --> 00:14:51.065 She was-- 00:14:51.065 --> 00:14:56.000 --how was that to work with your daughter and for her to work with you during that time? 00:14:56.000 --> 00:18:27.000 Honestly, it was really rewarding, but really difficult. I don't think you can ever transcend the relationships--like you're the parent and she's the child. I mean, even though she's an adult--I'm not sure why that is. But we had a really good run as a band because she was a great player. Actually, everybody in my band--in that band--was, the three people playing with me were just all extremely excellent musicians, natural players that just had a sense about how to dress up a song. They're all songwriters. And that's probably part of the reason that eventually everybody went their own ways because they wanted to express their own art. They don't wanna' just be backing me up all the time. And I understand that even though it was a tough breakup, because we worked really hard at being successful, which, it's an elusive term. And success, I think, in general, can be elusive because it's hard to define. What is success? Is it financial? Is it notoriety or visibility? Or is it just the satisfaction with doing something--being able to pull off doing something that you want to do and that you love to do? And in my case, I'd say, all three of those came into play at one time or another. I think when you're younger, you have these visions of where you want to go with something that's artistic, like a band, or as a painter or an artist. Success is sort of synonymous with visibility or fame, but they're really, completely have nothing to do with each other. Success, I don't think should ever be measured by monetary success. That's just one aspect of what you could call success especially in the art world. So it was about a ten-year run, and we played a lot of great music. My daughter--we still play music together. We had a long break because of some complications in her life. But we still play music together, and we still have all the same issues we had when we were both younger due to our relationship with each other. But the music is great. And I think that it's a real reward to be able to be involved with any endeavor with your children if it could happen. Sometimes I think relationships make that more difficult. So I guess that's how I'd characterize it, is just to say that you can't really transcend relationships, but you can make really good art together. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:45.000 Thank you. So, moving to the kind of next topic is can you tell me more about your deep connection to Woody Guthrie and especially the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival that you've played at for twenty-seven years? 00:18:45.000 --> 00:24:44.000 Well, I knew quite a bit about Woody Guthrie before the Festival started. I might have covered this a little bit earlier, but one thing I've always said is that when I first started to play the guitar, a number of songs that came along or that I came across to play happened to have been written by a guy named Woody Guthrie. You know, you don't forget that name (laughter). It's just Woody Guthrie. It just sounds almost like a caricature or a cartoon character out of the past. People that are younger than me, like the people in my band, for instance, that were younger than me, when they thought about Woody Guthrie, they pictured him as some person out of distant history. But Woody Guthrie only lived to be fifty-five years old, and he died in 1967, which was the year I graduated from high school. So he was relevant and active during my lifetime, and when I was a kid. I think some of the younger folks that think of him as being a sort of a historical figure, part of that is because Pete Seeger made sure that every kid in the country learned This Land Is Your Land when they went to school (laughter). He went around to schools and did programs, and he made sure that everybody knew that song. And I can go up to almost anybody and ask them if they know who Woody Guthrie is. And usually they don't. But if I say, This Land Is Your Land, then they know that song. And then I can tell them, Well, Woody Guthrie wrote that song. But then what I always like to add to that is something that's the description that Billy Bragg uses. Billy Bragg from England, he's a musician from there. His description of Woody Guthrie is Woody's the guy who wrote This Land is Your Land. In the United States, he's the guy who wrote this Land is Your Land. In the rest of the world, he's the guy with a sign on his guitar that says, This machine kills fascists. And that's how the rest of the world knows Woody. He did two--what do you call it? Two deployments with the Merchant Marines, because when World War II started and the Allies joined--or I should say the U.S. joined the Allies to fight the fascist Nazis in Europe? At that time, there was an American Communist movement in the States that a lot of people were supportive of. It wasn't the communism of Russia or Stalin, but it was the communism in pure philosophy, or which is basically a communal sharing of resources in a country. It never turns out that way, as it turns out, in other countries. At least it hasn't. There was a movement at that time in the late thirties going into the early forties. It was an American communist movement, and a lot of the people in the folk movement and a lot of artists were involved with that movement because they saw it as maybe an antidote to the harsher sides or harsher parts of capitalism. So when the war started and America joined the Allies, a lot of these artists saw the writing on the wall that it wasn't gonna' play out to be supportive of communism anymore in America. But they didn't wanna' fight. They were basically pacifists in philosophy. And so, some of them became conscientious objectors. Others joined other areas of the service where they didn't have to fight but could be supportive of the U.S. and Allied efforts. And so, Woody joined the Merchant Marines, along with Cisco Houston and some other friends of his. And they were involved with helping transport troops and munitions to Europe. Woody Guthrie famously wrote the song, The Good Ship Reuben James (The Sinking of the Reuben James). And actually there's a story, an anecdotal story, about being on a ship transporting troops and weapons to Europe that was being hit by depth charges. And so the whole crew was down in the hull hiding out. And the crew--not the crew--but the troops were down in the hull hiding out. And the crew, of course, was still manning the ship. And at a certain point, Woody said--grabbed his guitar and his harmonica and started to head down into the hull. And his friend Cisco Houston said, Where are you going? And he said, I'm going down to play some songs for the troops. And they said they didn't wanna' go down there. That's the worst place to be when you're being hit with depth charges is in the hull of a ship. And so, the three of them (Woody, Cisco, and Jimmy Longhi) went down there and sang songs until the tragedy was over and calmed the troops down. And that was just kind of the way Woody was, you know? 00:24:44.000 --> 00:37:50.000 So I knew a few Woody Guthrie songs when I first started out. And then as I became a young adult, I became aware of the fact that Woody had been a big influence on, well, actually a lot of people, but Bob Dylan in particular. And I was pretty hugely into Bob Dylan at the time. And so, I decided to kind of go back a little further and see what was it about Woody that attracted Bob, you know? And so, I started to look for Woody Guthrie materials, and this was probably about 1973, 74, into the mid-seventies. And there wasn't much there to find. If you were lucky, you could find a copy of Bound for Glory at a used bookstore. But Woody's recordings were pretty much out of print. There were a couple things I did find. I found a collection of cowboy songs sung by Woody Guthrie, along with Cisco Houston singing harmonies. A real treasure. And then I also found Songs to Grow On, which was the songs that Woody and his wife, Marjorie, wrote for their kids. And they were unique as children's songs because--we had children's records 'cause I had young kids. But a lot of the children's music that we encountered, a lot of it was just kinda' silly, you know? And occasionally you'd find some songs that did, could really impart some educational values and some meaning within the lyrics to the kids that were young. And the thing that I loved about Woody Guthrie's children's songs were that they were about real stuff. About real things. About being angry, about playing with your toys, about washing your face and brushing your teeth, just sort of the practical life stuff was really covered in Woody Guthrie's children's songs. And so, we got copies of those on cassettes at a store we found up in Santa Monica that carried a lot of this kind of alternative stuff. And my kids grew up on those songs, listening to those songs in our car and singing along with those songs. So we sort of got educated about Woody's material together. Turns out that Woody wrote like over 3000 songs and only recorded about 80 tracks. So there's a lot of uncovered material there. A couple times I tried to put together programs about Woody Guthrie with the songs that I'd learned off the Cisco Houston album. I came across the Library of Congress tapes that were recorded by Alan Lomax. He was the son of John Lomax. And they were both musical, I guess you'd say they were ethnomusicologists. But they uncovered a lot of music from the deep South, sung by Black people, slave songs, field songs. And these were basically unknown artists that they would find, and they would go to where these artists lived and make field recordings of their songs and their music so they could provide a historical reference for some of this music that had influenced so much other music that maybe we had heard of. But we hadn't heard of the stuff that had influenced this music. And so the Lomaxes were real musical historians. I think that Woody was probably introduced to the Lomaxes by Will Geer, the actor. And I don't know if you know who Will Geer was. Okay, well, not by name, but if you've ever seen the show, the Waltons, Will Geer was the grandpa on the Waltons. Okay. And he was one of Woody Guthrie's best friends. You didn't see Will Geer in a lot of movies or a lot of shows until The Waltons because he was blacklisted during the McCarthy Era, during the McCarthy hearings. So his career was pretty much put on hold. And he was a Broadway actor. He was the star of the Broadway show, Tobacco Road. And I guess probably it was in the thirties or forties. And when Woody got to New York, that's one of the people he met was Will Geer. And Will Geer, as far as I can tell from what I've read, introduced Woody to many, if not almost all of the I important people that Woody met, like the Seegers, the Lomaxes. I'm not sure who all, but I mean, when Woody got to New York, he was just like this folk singer from Oklahoma. And he kind of got taken under wing by Pete Seeger and Will Geer and put on some programs where people realized the folk movement was pretty vital at that time in the forties. But a lot of it were performers that had learned songs of the people that had kind of created this music. And when Woody got to New York he was perceived and seen as an authentic. He had actually lived in Oklahoma and through the Dust Bowl and traveled across the country with the Dust Bowl migration and sang the songs of the people. And so, he was like, wow. When he got to New York, people were just like, Wow, this guy's really special. And so, he recorded a number of songs with Moe (Moses) Asch, who had a recording studio and was recording folk musicians in New York. And then he recorded the Library of Congress interviews with Alan Lomax. And I think that the, it might be like two or three hours of interviews, just Woody and a guitar, with Alan Lomax asking him questions about growing up in Oklahoma and about the Dust Bowl migration, the country life that he led, his traveling across the country and different people he met. And that's all preserved in the Library of Congress. Those are just wonderful recordings. If you ever get a chance to hear those. They're just called the Library of Congress Recordings by Woody Guthrie and Alan Lomax. So when I found those recordings, I learned a lot about Woody Guthrie and him telling his own story, and at one point, I decided, well, I could, I know a lot of these songs, and I'm learning some other ones from these Library of Congress recordings and then Woody talking about his life and songs. I was a pretty good, I was a quick study for copying musicians, emulating music I had heard. And I think that most artists go through that process. They emulate what they love, and eventually what they're emulating, the distillation of all of the things they're emulating becomes another more unique original thing that becomes your own. I've always told artists that have asked me--I've used the "fake it 'til you make it" method. You know, you start copying things you like because you decide you want to do this. And if you've got an knack for it, you can keep going. And then what happens? It's almost like a learning to skate, like learning to ice skate, you know, you're really wobbly and you're falling down all the time, but then all of a sudden one day you're just doing it, you know, wow, I'm skating, you know? Well, with the musical influences, it's sort of like that. That's kind of the analogy I make for that, because all of a sudden, you're doing it on your own. You don't sound like somebody else anymore. But you're still using all those resources that you've learned, but it's been distilled into your own unique voice. I think that that's at least one road to becoming an artist. And when people ask me, that's what I always tell 'em. For me, it was the "fake it 'til you make it" method. So at one point, I had these songs and I was listening to these interviews, and I thought, well, I could put together a program and take it around to my kids' elementary school or middle school and do an educational program about the Dust Bowl, about Woody Guthrie and about the folk music of that era. And so, I decided to work on some of that. And I started to put together some ideas and make a list of songs and figure out which of the interview pieces I was gonna' try to learn so that I could do this program, and I wanted endorsement for it. And I knew that Harold Leventhal was Woody Guthrie's manager, was looking after his estate. Woody had died in '67, this was probably like in the seventies, mid-seventies to late seventies. So I found a number for Harold Leventhal in New York City. He was listed, and I called him up and he answered the phone. And I expressed my idea about how I wanted to do this Woody Guthrie program. He heard me out, and then he said, You cannot do this. You cannot even play any Woody Guthrie songs publicly because we are in the process of doing a Woody Guthrie program right now called Woody Guthrie's American Song--it was a play they had put together. I guess probably in the seventies, late seventies. And he said all of those songs and all of those interviews and recordings are all spoken for and protected, and you can't use any of it, so just forget it (laughter). And I thought like, wow, man, that wasn't very nice. I got off the phone with him, and he pretty much gave me a nope (laughter). And so, I let that idea kinda' slide, and I kind of thought, well, Harold Leventhal, he's kind of an edgy guy. So many years later after I started playing on the Woody Guthrie Festival, and I'll backtrack onto that a little bit, but I was given the first Woody Guthrie lyric by Nora Guthrie, Woody's daughter. A song called, Dance a Little Longer. And we put it to music, and it was on the first collection of Woody Guthrie songs. And when Harold Leventhal heard it, it turns out he loved it. Now he didn't connect that I was the same person that had called him twenty years earlier to ask permission to do this program. And it had been turned down. And so, turned out I was on my way home from the Woody Guthrie Festival the year that I had finished that first album. And all of a sudden, my cell phone rang, and I answered it, and it was Harold Leventhal, and he'd gotten my number. He called my manager and gotten my number, and he called me just to tell me how thrilled he was with the song Dance a Little Longer, and that he was thanking me for keeping Woody's legacy alive. And I just always thought it was really ironic. He never knew that I was the person who had called him that he had so harshly turned down twenty years earlier. And here now he was calling me and thanking me for writing music to a set of Woody Guthrie lyrics. So it was kind of cathartic. And kind of full circle in a way. 00:37:50.000 --> 00:48:34.014 But anyways, the Woody Guthrie Festival started in 1998. And I had a lot of background in Woody at that point. I had learned a lot of Woody Guthrie songs on my own. I had found my used copy of Bound for Glory and read it. And right around that time, there were a couple other books that came out that were biographical, biographies of Woody. They call Bound for Glory an autobiography, but it's really not. It's autobiographical, for sure. But he took a lot of license, and as I understand it, the original text of that book was like maybe 700 pages and just completely outta' chronology. And it took a really good editor, and I should find out the names, so I can tell you the name of the woman that did the editing for Bound for Glory, but she was able to take all of Woody's writings at that time and organize them and edit them into a novel that is autobiographical that Woody wrote. It's probably, well, it was on the bestseller list for a time. And I think it probably was an influence of writers like Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady, Gary Snyder, some of those beat writers were probably influenced by Woody's writing because Kerouac's book, On the Road is not dissimilar from Bound for Glory in its cadence. And it's just the way the story's told, traveling around the country, hitchhiking, riding freight trains, and stuff. So I guess it was probably the end of 1997, maybe early 1998, I got a postcard from another artist, whose mailing list I was on--a guy named Ray Wylie Hubbard, Oklahoma, Texas guy. And he had actually written one hit song. He's a really great songwriter, but the one hit song that made it was called, Up Against the Wall, Redneck Mother (laughter). I don't know if you remember that title (laughter), but it was not what he usually wrote, but that's the song that made it. Anyways, so I had met Ray Wylie Hubbard, and I was on his mailing list, and I got this postcard listing his shows and listed in July, he was gonna' be playing the first annual Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival in Okemah, Oklahoma, Woody's hometown. And I knew the history--that town, Woody Guthrie's hometown, had mixed feelings about Woody. Historically, half the town had hated Woody because of his, what they perceived as his political views. They thought he was a communist. They thought he was a leftist. And Okemah, Oklahoma, if you look on a map, is pretty much dead center in the middle of the United States, and it's about 70 miles east of Oklahoma City--a very small town. I think it's still population about three or four thousand. And they had decided to do this festival. They had tried to do things for Woody previously in the town, but it never panned out. You know, something had always gone wrong or just never happened. But in the nineties, there was actually a woman and her husband that we met, became really good friends with once the festival got going, Sharon and Dee Jones. That were residents of Okemah, Oklahoma. And Sharon Jones had a cousin from San Francisco, and they got together in Oklahoma, probably in, I don't know, late nineties for a family reunion. And the liberal cousin from San Francisco said to Sharon, You live in Okemah, Oklahoma, and this town doesn't do anything for Woody Guthrie. That's shameful. You know, just kinda' shamed her about it (laughter). And so, she decided, we need to do something for Woody Guthrie. And so, turns out Woody's little sister lived right nearby in a town called Seminole. And so, Sharon had met her before 'cause Mary Jo Edgmon Guthrie, Woody's little sister, had spent a lot of her adult life going around to school classrooms to tell the kids about her brother, Woody Guthrie, who wrote, This Land Is Your Land. You know, sort of like Pete Seeger had done, but in her way. Telling her story about her big brother. And so, they knew of her. And so, they (phone interruption). Sorry about that. Just gotta' get rid of this call. So they knew about her, and so they contacted her and presented the idea of doing a Woody Guthrie Festival. And she said, Well, Woody's son, my nephew, is gonna' be coming through town in a couple months. I'm not sure exactly whether it was a couple months or sooner. Let's get together and tell him about your idea and see what he thinks. So they got together, and this is the story Sharon and Dee told me, so it's secondhand, but this is as I heard it. They got together with Mary Jo and Arlo Guthrie and Sharon and Dee and had a dinner and presented this idea of this Woody Guthrie festival. And Arlo said, Well, this town has never been that appreciative of my dad. So I don't know how successful something like this would be, but what I would suggest is that if we do it, we make it free. So we could pay artist expenses to get there, but I think it would be best if no artist was paid to play on the festival except for expenses to get there. And if no one had to pay to go see the festival. So we could call it the Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival. So for the first several years, that was the name of the festival, and it was free. They charged for parking, like $5 a car. So they were able to raise some money that way. And then on Wednesday night, the day before the festival started, the night before the festival started, they had a show in the Crystal Theatre in the town, which is an old theater that was there when Woody was a kid. And he used to go to the movies there. And his mom used to go to the movies there with Mary Jo when she was a baby. In fact, there's a story that one time, because she had Huntington's Disease, which is the disease that Woody died of, when she was showing signs of that, she would just go to the theater and just sit in the theater for hours and watch the movies. And one time she was in the theater, and Mary Jo, who was about three years old, wandered out of the theater into the middle of the street. And somebody picked her up saying, who's got a kid on the loose? So that's when they knew that Nora (Belle) Guthrie, Woody's mom and Mary Jo's mom, was in the throes of Huntington's disease. So they established this festival, and it was 1998. And I heard about it on this postcard that I got from Ray Wylie Hubbard. And I thought, man, it's gonna' be just in like a month or two. It wasn't too far away. And so, I know how these things are booked, and you have to book your shows a good six months in advance, sometimes even a year in advance, to get on some of these venues. And I really thought, man, I should be on this festival 'cause I've been looking for Woody Guthrie for a number of years now and kind of putting that into my performance portfolio and learning his songs and taking ideas from the songs and incorporating them into my own writing. And so, I called my manager and told (her) about this festival and said I'd really like to try to get on this maybe next year, and realizing I probably couldn't get on it in 1998. And so she said, you know what? I just got a letter from the people putting on the festival asking for a quote from one of our other artists, a more famous artist that they managed. And she said, So I can get the quote for them and then send the quote to them and send some of your material and pitch you for the festival. So she did that. And I was just so fortunate to get on that festival, even though it was only a couple months away. So I was one of the opening acts for that festival. I went there by myself the first year. I had just read Joe Klein's book, Woody Guthrie: A Life, by Joe Klein. And it's a voluminous book about Woody Guthrie's life. It doesn't pull any punches. And I just read that book. And there were some things that happened in that book that you don't hear about, just hadn't heard about it. They weren't in Bound for Glory or any other things I'd heard about Woody Guthrie. 00:48:34.014 --> 01:11:06.385 One of the things that I had read about in that book was a lynching that had happened in the town of Okemah, Oklahoma, of a woman named Laura Nelson. And also of her son, her teenage son. Her and her son were lynched from a bridge about six miles outside of town in 1911. Her husband had been accused of stealing a sheep from a white farmer. And so, the sheriff and a deputy went out to arrest the husband, Lawrence Nelson, I believe was his name. And there was a standoff. And during the standoff, their son, who I think was about 14, had grabbed a shotgun and was hiding under the stairs of the house and shot the sheriff and hit him in the leg. And he bled to death in the yard begging for water, which the family wouldn't bring him. And so then the deputies left, they formed a posse and came back out and arrested the whole family. And took them to Okemah, placed the husband in the jail, and then right across the alley from the jail in another building that also had barred windows, they held Laura Nelson and her son and her baby. She had an infant. So the husband in one cell, and then Laura Nelson, the son, and the baby in another building right across the alley waiting for the circuit judge to come through so they could have a trial for the murder of the sheriff and for the lost or the stolen sheep. That didn't happen because before the circuit judge came, a mob was formed, and they broke into the building that had Lauren Nelson and her son and the baby, and they took them about six miles out of town to a bridge and lynched them from that bridge. There's a photograph of that. 'Cause these photographs of lynchings at that time were popular in the South, and they were sold as postcards in in like drugstores. It'd be like these postcards of these various lynchings that had happened. And so, this is one of the photographs from that series of photos is the picture of Laura Nelson hanging and then her son hanging next to her. The baby was left on the shore to die. And anecdotally it's told that that a family adopted the baby. And there's different stories. Some say it was a Black family that picked the baby up. Others say it was a white family that took the baby in, and then later she was actually a privileged Black that could, that had privileges in town that other Blacks didn't have. (Phone buzzes) Lets turn this off. I'm getting a lot of spam calls for some reason today. So I had read this in this Joe Klein book, and I had been invited to come play the festival, which was like a month or two off. And I thought, well, I'm gonna' have to bring a Woody Guthrie song or some Woody Guthrie songs with me. I mean, it just seemed like that's what you had to do. If you're gonna' be on the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. And I knew a lot of Woody Guthrie songs, but a lot of them were the popular songs, like This Land Is Your Land. This Train (This Train is Bound for Glory), I Ain't Got No Home (I Ain't Got No Home in This World Anymore), 1913 Massacre--maybe not one of the most well-known ones. But I had learned a couple of songs in the early seventies from Jack Elliot, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, from some of his recordings and then seeing him play live when I was about 20, 24 years old. I was on a trip to Colorado and saw Jack Elliot live and got to meet him and John Prine. And John Prine was just starting out. He wasn't famous yet (laughter). So I'd learned these couple of songs from Jack Elliott. I'd learned Pretty Boy Floyd, and I'd learned 1913 Massacre, which--two of Woody's most powerful songs. But I knew that someone would probably be doing those songs, you know? Because there's a lot of people already on the festival. I didn't know most of 'em. I knew a handful of them from other festivals I'd been on and maybe we'd been on shows together, that kind of thing. And so, I had a book called Hard Hitting Songs for Hard-hit People, and it was a compilation book of songs that had been compiled by Alan Lomax and his father, John Lomax, folk music historians. And then the musical notes, or the musical melody line had been transposed from the recordings by Pete Seeger. So he had actually done the musical notation. And then every song in the book--and there's probably a couple hundred songs in the book--but every song in the book had an introduction, just telling about the song, where it came from and what was important about it. And those were all written by Woody Guthrie. Now he only had maybe four songs in the book that he had written, but he did the notes for all the songs. So I was looking for the songs that he'd specifically written, and I found them, there were like four or five songs, and a couple of 'em were songs that were the popular songs that people knew. But there was this one song in there called Don't Kill My Baby and My Son. And it was about the lynching of Laura Nelson just outside the town of Okemah, Oklahoma, which is Woody's hometown. The lynching happened in 1911. Woody was born in 1912. He didn't write the song until about 1940. So it happened before he was born, a year before he was born. He must have heard talk about it, like for his whole childhood. It was a very traumatic event. I mean, even for the people that did it. It wasn't like a party. It was a very horrible, noteworthy event that had happened in that town in 1911. Wasn't soon forgotten. So I know he heard about it. And there were probably other lynchings because when I actually looked for the location there, one person who I had asked about it that was from there, said, Oh, you mean the bridge where they hung the Blacks? Plural. So I think there was more than one lynching there, but the one that was documented was the lynching of Laura Nelson. So I found this song, Don't Kill My Baby and My Son, in the book. And it was notated and had the words. And so, I set about learning it, and I wasn't thinking, you're going to Oklahoma to the town where this happened. Yeah, it was a hundred years earlier almost. But it was still a very intense thing that had been. Most of the people that lived in that town didn't know about it. It had been buried by the time it was like 1998. But I just naively took this song. This is a song that nobody's gonna' do (laughter). Yeah. That's for sure. So I got there, and I told a couple people about it, that this was the song I was gonna' play, the Woody song I brought. Who was it I told--was it Ray Wylie Hubbard? I'm gonna' have to think on that for a second, because I've messed that story up a couple times and got it with the wrong person. But I told somebody, one of the artists at the show, and it will probably come to me here, but I told one of the artists at the show about the song and played it for him. And he said, You're gonna play that here? (Laughter). And he was from that area. And I said, Well, yeah, I was thinking about it. He said, Okay. He said, I'll have the car running out back just in case you have to leave really quick (laughter). So it did shock people. I sang the song, and it shocked people. I wasn't thinking anything of it. I mean, this is how blindly I did this (laughter). I guess if I'd actually taken some time to think about it, I might never have taken that song there. But in retrospect, I'm really glad I did. Because it opened up a conversation that wasn't being had there about this lynching and other lynchings. And the first reactions were from some of the townspeople, like, why would you come and sing a song like that? They thought it was my song. They didn't know it was Woody's song. And I started that year to look around for where it happened 'cause there was a description in the book I'd read that said it was six miles southeast out of town, or I can't remember exactly what the directions were, but there's like four roads, four directions going out of town. So I headed out on one of the roads about six miles, and we looked here and there and everywhere, and we never did find it. And then the next year I looked again, 'cause I was invited back and have been subsequently invited back every year. So for the next few years, I looked for that location of that hanging and got sent by two or three different people to different places. Oh, yeah, I know where that is. Yeah, you just gotta' go out here and turn right, and there's a dirt road and then you follow that dirt road until it hits the river, and then you go down the river a little ways. And it was like this kind of stuff, you know? And also in the description, it had said that it was a railroad bridge that the lynching had occurred from. And of course, we had the picture of the bridge and in that picture, there's not only the picture of the hanging, but on the bridge, the entire bridge, is people standing on the bridge watching, looking down, watching the hanging. And it said that Woody's father was there. That might've been, he might've been in the lynch mob, and he might've been in the Ku Klux Klan. Now there's no documentation that he was. It's believed he probably was. But you know, some people just say, yeah, Woody's father was in the Ku Klux Klan. I never say that because I don't know that that was true. It might've been true. But I never stated it. And my reason for that was because Mary Jo Guthrie, Woody's baby sister, became a really good friend of mine for over twenty years. And I don't think that she believed that her father was in the Ku Klux Klan. And I just didn't see any reason to keep throwing that at her or throwing that out there when it would be in her presence. It just didn't seem necessary to me since there wasn't any proof. Might have been was good enough for me. And it was good enough for her, too. So I always left it there, but there's still people that say, yeah, he was definitely in the Ku Klux Klan, and he may well have been in the mob that took her out there. So anyways, I sang the song and was a pretty intense reaction. And then the next year, I sang the song again, and it kind of became signature to me, and people became aware that it was something that had happened in their town. The second year I got a note that somebody brought backstage to me from a guy that had a booth out in the festival area, in the audience area. He had a book booth, like a used bookstore. And it said, Come out and visit my bookstore booth. I've got something for you. And so I went out there after I played, I walked out there to where his booth was, and he said, I've got something for you. And he gave me a copy of the 1920 race--it was called the 1920 Tulsa Race Riot Report (Tulsa Race Riot A Report). So, you know, it was a massacre, not a race riot, but that's what they called it in this report, which was the official report that had been made to try to understand why the massacre had happened in Tulsa. And in the context of that, they talked about the history of lynchings in that region of the country, Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, kind of that area. And further in the deep South, as well. And so, that was an eye-opener (laughter) to get that book. So now it was kind of like the whole thing was kind of outed, you know? And then over the next few years, different people would tell me where the location was, and we would go and look for it and we never could find it. And then, I'm gonna' say, what year was that? I don't know exactly what year it was. It was probably like 2015, 2016, somewhere in there. We were at the festival, and my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, who lives in Hawaii and is a anthropology archeology professor with a specialty in, I guess you call it like the South Pacific Islands. But she's just really interested in that, the whole study of that kind of stuff. And she knew we were at the Woody Guthrie Festival. She knew the stories about this lynching and the song I had sung there. I've told all these same stories to her. And she had had a foot injury and was off her feet, couldn't go anywhere. And so she was vicariously following us at the festival, and started to look at some aerial photography of the area. She knew that the lynching had happened six miles out of town. And she started looking on all these, going around on the map, looking at photographs of--I guess on Google Earth or something. And the first thing she told us was, she said, I look at the picture of that lynching, and that's not a railroad bridge. She says that that that bridge would never hold a train. That's what they call a cart bridge because in the time when that bridge was built, they didn't have cars. Everybody traveled by horse cart. But that means that when that bridge was destroyed. It was probably replaced by another bridge on a road, on an existing road. It's not like just a bridge that came from somewhere and went across the river to somewhere else. It was most likely a bridge on a road, because it was a cart bridge, which meant it was a road, and a continuation over the river of a road. And she said, I think it's this location--was six miles out town going I think west outta' town. I get my directions kind of messed up 'cause I'm not there right now. But anyways, there's the one main road that you could take outta' town. It's like the one road up from Broadway, which is the main drag in Okemah, is highway, I think it's 62. And you take that out of town six miles, and you come to a town about four miles out. You come to a town called Boley, which was the first all-Black town in the United States. It was established by a guy named Boley, who owned the railroads. And after the slaves were freed, after the emancipation of the slaves, he was a guy who was of the opinion that that black people could govern themselves. He was a segregationist. So he felt that Blacks and whites should be segregated but that Blacks could have their own towns, kind of crazy idea. But the white town could be over here and Black town could be over here. So they established this area of land that he owned as Boley, and it could be the first Black town. And then they put the word out that freed slaves could come there and establish a life there. And the history of that is pretty brutal 'cause people would come there, like the first year, it's like a couple dozen folks came there and almost all of them were wiped out by the end of the winter either by disease or by wolves. 'Cause there weren't really any dwellings. I mean, they were basically just living in makeshift shelters. Eventually they established the town. The next year more people would come, bunch more people would get wiped out in the wintertime. And progressively, they established a town there, and it's still there. So you drive past this Black town, which is the area where Laura Nelson and her husband's farm was, they were probably sharecroppers, so probably wasn't their farm. And then eventually you come to this bridge over the Canadian River, and we had been to that bridge, and we'd looked, like you stand on the bridge and look up the river. And it looked a lot like the postcard, very similar landscape to the postcard of that lynching. But we couldn't establish that that's where it was. And we couldn't see anything, any evidence of it. And we were looking at this one direction that looked like the background of the picture. If you looked the other way, it didn't really look the same. So we were looking, I think we were looking to the south. Let's see, we were coming this way. Yeah. We were looking to the south. And, our sister-in-law, my sister-in-law, contacted us and said, I think you're looking the wrong way over that bridge. You should go back out to that bridge and look to the north side and look straight down at the bottom of the bridge. She says, I think I see two big footings on each side of the river from an older bridge along, that comes off of a dirt road. It's like just a farm road now. And then the highway with the new bridge. So we went back out and we look, and sure enough, here's these two concrete pilings, what's left of them with a little bit of rebar sticking out of 'em on each side of the river. So we go down to explore, we go down to the river under the bridge, and there's just all kinds of graffiti there. You know, like this is where it happened. Look up Laura Nelson. And then a whole bunch of obscene racist things written on the bridge wall down there. So you--and beer cans everywhere. And you could just tell this has been a off zone party spot for a long time, and this is where it happened. But the old bridge is gone. And that's the reason that the landscape looked the same is because if you had backed up down past where the old bridge was and looked the same direction, there you have that picture. So we did find the location. 01:11:06.385 --> 01:14:55.000 And as you said, I played that Festival, I played it 27 times, which has been a great honor. In the 25th year, they gave me an award, a Woody Guthrie Legacy Artist award, which was a real honor. There were about five of us that had been on the Festival for over twenty years. I think I might have been maybe the only one that had been there for the whole twenty-five. You know, a couple others had been there for twenty-four years. Or one guy had been there for twenty-four years and had been in a helicopter accident before the Festival one of the years. But he showed up anyways, even though he couldn't play, it was on crutches. So they credited him with that Festival as well. So since I started playing that Festival, I've met several Woody Guthrie scholars. I've read at least two other biographies of Woody Guthrie that have come out. They're very comprehensive. One by Ed Cray and the one by Joe Klein. And then there's several other smaller books. There's a couple children's books that tell his story. There's so much material now. Like when I started to look for Woody Guthrie, there was hardly anything. And now there's just a ton of material. In fact, they just released some recordings that Woody did at home, on a home recorder, when he couldn't really travel around that much anymore because he was starting to have the symptoms of Huntington's disease. So Woody Guthrie's been close to my heart. And a couple years after the initial song that I wrote that was a co-write, I was given four more sets of lyrics that did not have music. And so, I have two Woody Guthrie albums with Woody Guthrie songs, and the first one has the one original lyric and then the second one has four more. And then there's a, some other Woody Guthrie songs on there. Some of them are familiar, but there's some other ones on there that were never recorded by Woody but did have musical notation. And I found those because a few years into the Festival, one of the guys that came to the Festival on a regular basis in the early days, his name was Jim Pollard. And he was the president of the Huntington's Disease association in Lowell, Massachusetts. But when the Festival started, he started coming down to Oklahoma every year to do a panel on Huntington's disease. And we pulled in some people from the local chapter in Oklahoma City. And then Mary Jo Guthrie was on that panel with us because she never got Huntington's disease, and we don't know, it supposedly skips. It's every other generation. It's genetic. And they've discovered a lot about Huntington's disease just in the last few years. I know that they've been able to isolate the gene that causes it. And so, they can test people when they're young to see if they have that gene that means that they may be likely to get it. And there are some even gene-altering procedures now that are experimental. They think that eventually they'll be able to cure Huntington's disease. 01:14:55.000 --> 01:23:31.154 I'm trying to think what else can I cover about Woody Guthrie In my experience with the Woody Guthrie Festival. About half of the way into it, one of the other performers, Jimmy LaFave, who died a few years ago, he and I were two of the first people on the Festival, played it every year. And at a certain point, I think it was probably around 2003 or '04, he put together a review show that was his band and himself, and then about four other songwriters. And those would be like a couple of the songwriters were regulars, song regulars on the show. And then the other two or three songwriters would be people that lived in the areas where we were doing the show. So if we were in the northeast or on the west coast or wherever it would, we would fill in those other two or three songwriter spots with people from that area that had an affinity with the Woody Guthrie Festival or with Woody Guthrie in general. And we had a narrator and we would do these readings of Woody's essays and work from Bound for Glory and other things he'd written. And then that would be followed by a song, a Woody Guthrie song by one of the artists on the show backed up by Jimmy's band, and it was called The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway, A Tribute to the Songs and Words of Woody Guthrie. And we did that I guess for about three years, all over the country, at venues all over the country. And I was the--at a certain point, the guy who was our narrator who was from Oklahoma City died. And so, I became the narrator. And we had a show in--before he passed away--we had a show in New York City on Governor's Island, which is, you take the ferry out to Governor's Island. And it was like an eleven o'clock, I think. Eleven o'clock show in the morning. And we all flew in to New York City from various places--from Chicago, Oklahoma, California--whoever was in our cast--just coming from Texas, we're kind of flying all these different places to New York City, and it was a lot of weather issues going on. And so, there were a lot of delays and some plane cancellations. My plane was supposed to get into New York City at like nine o'clock at night and then I would take a taxi to downtown to the hotel we were staying at. And then the next morning at like nine o'clock, I was gonna' meet everybody, take a taxi to Battery Park and meet everybody there at the ferry dock. And then we'd all get on the ferry to Governor's Island. And then they had a stage set up for us there as a big outside venue and whole bunch of people. And we'd do the Ribbon Highway show there. So my plane got delayed. We got to New York City, and they didn't have a place for us to land. So we circled and circled and circled, until finally they said we're getting low on gas and they still don't have a place for us to land, so we're gonna' go to Buffalo, and we're gonna' land in Buffalo until they can clear up all these backed up planes and everything in New York City, and then we'll take you back to New York City. So we get to Buffalo, which is like this little nothing airport up in Buffalo, New York. And we got out of the plane, and we were there for probably three hours waiting. Three, three or four hours. There were no concessions or anything to nothing. You couldn't get anything to eat or anything sitting on terminal waiting. Finally, they said, Okay, we're ready to take you back to New York City. So we got back on the plane, they fly us down to New York City, we land, they deboard us, and by the time we get to the baggage area, it's about three in the morning. And my call is at nine at Battery Park. And so (laughter), we get into the luggage area, and the baggage is just piled up against the walls everywhere. I mean, it's just like stacks of bags everywhere. My bags are just coming in, so I was able to get my bags pretty quickly, but these are all from backed up flights. So I go out to get a taxi, and the taxi queue is literally two-and-a-half or three blocks long. I mean, I can see the end of the line, but it's gonna' be a long time before I get a taxi. And by the time I get my bags and I'm out there, it's a quarter of four. And I'm just going like, oh, man. So I'm in line, way in the back of the line and all of a sudden, this guy comes walking by, Jamaican guy, and he's going, anybody going to Midtown? I give you a ride to Midtown. He says, I got a van. I'll give you a ride to Midtown. Nobody says anything, and it's totally against the law. He's not supposed to be there, scabbing rides. And so I go, I'm going downtown. He goes, not going downtown, going Midtown. So he keeps talking, going to Midtown, going down the line. Standing there going, well, I wish he was going downtown, you know, but he's not. So I'm still standing in line. Pretty soon he comes back, he says, you going downtown? I go, yeah. He says, I'll take you downtown. Says, okay. I grabbed my bags, man. I'm not afraid to go with him. (Laughter.) I jump in his van, and he's this Jamaican guy with a Jamaican accent. And we get talking about--this is kind of a funny anecdote--we're talking about pot. We're talking about marijuana, just like, about how he has a brother that grows marijuana in Jamaica, and we're kind of trading these counterculture marijuana stories. And I said, yeah, you know, the trouble is when you're a musician, if you want to find something to smoke, it's really hard. You know, you go to these different places, and you're a stranger in a strange land, and so you can't find anything. And he says, Just remember this, man, wherever you go, it's already there. And (laughter) that turns out to be true. So I just thought that was just really a funny thing that he said. So I've always remembered that. Anyways, he gives me a ride to my hotel in downtown. I get there. I check in. I've got--it's a nice little room, but you know, by now it's like five in the morning. And I've got four hours to get to sleep and then wake up and meet these people to get a taxi to Battery Park to meet the crew. And so we, I get in the thing and turns out this guy, Bob Childers, who was the narrator, his plane got to Chicago from Oklahoma City, but then his flight was canceled going to New York City. So he's stuck in Chicago, so he's not gonna' get there for the show. And I don't know this yet, but I get to the Battery Park and our producer, who kind of coordinates our whole show and everything, she sees me as I get there, and she comes up to me with the script in her hand, and she just hands me the script, and she says, You could do this, right? (Laughter.) And I look at it and I go, what? And she goes, Bob's not gonna' be here. You know, you need to do the narration, you can do it right? And I go, yeah, I can do it. And then, so I did the narration for that show, and then our next show--I guess Bob made one more show, but he was very fragile. And he died about a month after that. And so I became the narrator of the show for the next, I guess we did it for more than three years. We probably did it for about five or six years. And we ended that show up. And that's about, that's probably about all my information on Woody. 01:23:31.154 --> 01:23:39.094 Thank you so much, Joel, for this third installment of your oral history. And you know, we'll be back together soon at some point. 01:23:39.094 --> 01:23:41.414 Yeah. I've got more stories to tell on this. 01:23:41.414 --> 01:23:42.207 Yes, you do. 01:23:42.207 --> 01:23:43.265 Thank you so much. 01:23:43.265 --> 01:23:45.265 All Right. Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael Joel. Interview, October 21, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-088 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-10-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Folk music festivals—United States Music festivals—Oklahoma Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Baez, Joan, 1941– Communism—United States United States Merchant Marine Lynching—United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Salinas (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Austin (Tex.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Okemah (Okla.) Boley (Okla.) New York (N.Y.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Robert Forster II OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran United States Air Force;Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975;Korea;aircraft mechanic;Staff Sergeant OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Forster II, James Robert. Interview November 22nd, 2024. SC027-070 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Air Force ; Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 ; Korea ; aircraft mechanic ; Staff Sergeant James Robert Forster II Jason Beyer Moving Image ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ec56e576cd1e3f6843c0218021dd47d3.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 69 Military Background Forster served in the U.S. Air Force and attained his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. He served in Korea during the Vietnam War. United States Air Force ; E5 Staff Sergeant ; Korea ; Vietnam War 0 91 Youth and Enlistment Raised in Wichita, Kansas then San Jose, California, Forster had a high draft number, so he enlisted into the Air Force for aircraft maintenance training. Wichita (Kan.) ; San Jose (Calif.) ; West Valley College ; Kenny's Shoe Store ; newspaper delivery ; enlistment ; aircraft maintenance ; training 0 201 Training and Promotions As a crew chief and flight mechanic, Forster did maintenance for many aircraft. He also recalls his training instructors and promotions. crew chief ; C-97 ; C-121 ; C-47 ; flight mechanic ; McClellan Air Force Base ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; wing commander ; 552nd Air Control Wing ; airborne early warning and control ; North American Aerospace Defense Command ; instructor ; promotion ; Airman First Class ; Korea 0 431 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Forster recalls his challenging unaccompanied tour to Korea, which strained his marriage and included harsh weather. He appreciated the military’s reliable chain of command. Forster tells a story about refusing to let a colonel fly his airplane and how the chain of command supported his decision. unaccompanied tour ; Korea ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; winter ; monsoon ; chain of command ; non-commissioned officer ; full bird colonel 0 615 Reflections on Serving in Korea during the Vietnam War Forster was part of the replenishment of relieving the Air National Guard from Korea. Most of his work entailed flying passengers and mail. In hindsight, he reflects on how much better he had it than the aircraft mechanics in Vietnam. Navy ; USS Pueblo ; North China Sea ; Air National Guard ; Korea ; Frontier Airlines ; Braniff Airlines ; American Airlines ; Transamerica ; Douglas AC-47 Spooky ; Agent Orange ; Osan (Korea) ; Kunsan (Korea) ; Gwangju (Korea) ; Daegu (Korea) 0 749 Camaraderie and Recreation Forster’s fondest memories with his military comrades were in the bar they set up in the barracks day room. The bar was their main place to recreate when off duty, although some did Taekwondo and other activities. He also mimics a Korean houseboy who took care of the common areas. camaraderie ; friendship ; non-commissioned officer ; Air Force Times ; flight engineers ; flight mechanics ; day room ; barracks ; bar ; the Airman's Club ; beer ; recreation ; Taekwondo ; Korean ; houseboy 0 909 In-Flight Emergencies Forster recalls flying over Japan at Mount Fujiyama in a C-47. It was during a severe winter storm with strong winds, and he almost ran out of fuel. in-flight emergencies ; pre-flight ; Mount Fuji (Japan) ; C-47 ; Tokyo (Japan) ; wind ; storm ; winter 0 1007 Socializing with Locals, Sea Survival School, and Interactions with the Second Chinese Air Force in Taiwan Forster had great experiences with local people. While in Sea Survival School in Okinawa at Kadena Air Base, he saw flying missions to Vietnam, including an SR-71. He also recalls flying to Taiwan to pick up a C-47. He was very impressed by the “Second Chinese Air Force.” Japan ; Okinawa (Japan) ; Korea ; locals ; Sea Survival School ; Kadena Air Base ; SR-71 ; inspect and repair as necessary ; Taipei (Taiwan) ; Taichung (Taiwan) ; Second Chinese Air Force ; gunship ; C-47 ; C-119 ; C-130 0 1315 Ending Service, Returning Home, Readjusting to Civilian Life, Work, and the G.I. Bill Forster drove across the country from MacDill Air Force Base to San Jose, California. He recalls returning home during the height of the Vietnam War and the anti-war movement. In his words, “There was no welcome for the returning veteran.” Nevertheless, he went back to school, met his wife, and got an MBA using the G.I. Bill. He worked at an insurance company and had a Farmers Insurance agency for 10 years. MacDill Air Force Base ; Tampa (Fla.) ; San Jose (Calif.) ; parents ; veteran ; protest ; college ; sociology ; wife ; marriage ; Farmers Insurance ; insurance agency ; G.I. Bill ; National University ; Master of Business Administration 0 1484 Continuing Friendships and Veterans Organizations Forster lost track of most friends from military service. He joined the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) but left because they could not decide whether he was an Army veteran or an Air Force veteran. friendship ; Portland (Or.) ; Veterans of Foreign Wars ; Army veteran ; Air Force veteran 0 1532 Reflections on Life After Military Service Forster talks about his wife, his children, his grandchildren, and his travels with family. He says military service taught him that “your word is your bond.” CSU San Marcos ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Sapphire Princess Cruise ; Caribbean ; Disney World ; COVID ; El Cajon (Calif.) ; school 0 1656 What People Should Know About Veterans and a Message for Future Generations Forster encourages anyone enlisting in the military to be open minded. He says military service can include many positive experiences, like travel and education. Forster recounts how his training could have an aircraft maintenance career, but he ultimately chose the insurance business. military ; veterans ; Air Force ; Korea ; Okinawa (Japan) ; Taipei (Taiwan) ; United Airlines ; Chicago (Ill.) ; aircraft mechanic ; insurance business 0 Oral history James Robert Forster II served in Korea as a crew chief and flight mechanic for the U.S. Air Force during the Vietnam War and reached his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. Forster recalled the challenges of an unaccompanied tour to Korea, the strains it put on his first marriage, as well as his return home during the height of the anti-war movement. He praised the education and experiences he gained from military service, including travel, recreation, training, and the G.I. Bill. After military service, Forster worked in the insurance business and met his wife at university. He reflected on his family, travels after retirement, and the life lessons he learned from military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:06.325 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing James Robert Forester II. Today's date is Friday, November 22, 2024. We are located inside the Kellogg Library at California State University San Marcos, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Victor Beyer, the interviewee, James Robert Forster II, Marilyn Huerta, and camera operator, Adel Bautista. Today's purpose of the interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name, first, middle, and last name. 00:01:06.325 --> 00:01:09.344 James Robert Forster II. 00:01:09.344 --> 00:01:10.775 Your branch of service. 00:01:10.775 --> 00:01:13.025 United States Air Force. 00:01:13.025 --> 00:01:15.775 The highest ranked you attained. 00:01:15.775 --> 00:01:18.015 E5 Staff Sergeant. 00:01:18.015 --> 00:01:23.314 And the war or conflict that you served during your time of service. 00:01:23.314 --> 00:01:31.685 During Vietnam—actually in Korea, but that was during the Vietnam conflict. 00:01:31.685 --> 00:01:38.105 Thank you. So today we'll begin with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:38.105 --> 00:01:40.215 Wichita, Kansas. 00:01:40.215 --> 00:01:44.515 What was life like in Wichita, Kansas for you? 00:01:44.515 --> 00:01:59.155 I attended elementary school till fourth grade, and then we moved from Wichita, Kansas for a job transfer for my father to San Jose, California. 00:01:59.155 --> 00:02:04.245 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:02:04.245 --> 00:02:11.444 Yes, my uncle, my father, my grandfather—each of them served in the military. 00:02:11.444 --> 00:02:16.175 Did that play a role in your joining the military? 00:02:16.175 --> 00:02:39.405 I was a student at West Valley Junior College (West Valley College) and not doing well academically. The draft came around in '67 and my number was high, so rather than be drafted I joined on delayed enlistment into the Air Force so I could get training. 00:02:39.405 --> 00:02:44.145 Did you hold any jobs prior to entering the military service? 00:02:44.145 --> 00:02:54.155 Yes, I sold shoes for Kenny's Shoe Store and delivered newspapers—those kind of things. 00:02:54.155 --> 00:03:04.544 When and why did you choose to join the military? So you said you weren't drafted, but why specifically did you choose the branch of the Air Force? 00:03:04.544 --> 00:03:21.395 So I could have aircraft maintenance schooling. I spent nine months in tech school after basic training to learn aircraft maintenance. 00:03:21.395 --> 00:03:33.544 For your early days of service, what is your most vivid memory, both the best and worst parts of training of your time during school in the Air Force. 00:03:33.544 --> 00:04:07.034 I had to learn different aircraft in their operations—the engine, the airframes. As a crew chief, I was responsible for all of those things to ensure that they worked well. I worked on C-97s, I worked on C-121s, I worked on C-47s, and flew for two years on C-47s as a flight mechanic. 00:04:07.034 --> 00:04:12.525 What was your first assignment like after basic training? 00:04:12.525 --> 00:04:55.415 I was sent to McClellan Air Force Base in Sacramento, California, and I was assigned to the Wing Commander of the 552nd Airborne early warning and control wing's squadron commander. So I was a crew chief on that aircraft. It was different than the airborne early warning that the C-121s did for NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command), but all we did was make sure that that airplane is ready when the wing commander wanted to go somewhere. So we spent a lot of time cleaning and prepping. 00:04:55.415 --> 00:05:00.095 Do you recall your instructors while you were in training? 00:05:00.095 --> 00:05:03.555 Not by name. 00:05:03.555 --> 00:05:05.884 Do you recall what they were like? 00:05:05.884 --> 00:05:31.204 They were demanding, because what we did people's lives depended upon, and they wanted to ensure that we as the airmen understood how important it was for the aircraft to be air worthy and safe for flight. That's what we were taught and instilled in us. 00:05:31.204 --> 00:05:42.485 Did you qualify with equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, weapons? If so, what was that training with that equipment like? 00:05:42.485 --> 00:06:19.574 We did total—(Forster coughs)—total airframe, from ensuring that the aircraft was ready for flight—it was fueled, it was oiled and it was pre-flighted so that when the pilots came to the aircraft, it was ready to go—as close as it could be. 00:06:19.574 --> 00:06:25.105 Did you receive any promotions, and if so, could you tell me about them? 00:06:25.105 --> 00:07:11.704 I was promoted to Airman First Class probably when I went—when I was assigned to Korea. That's E4, and you have to pass a test. You have to demonstrate competency on the equipment, understanding of the aircraft system and systems. And then once you've done that test, then the promotion is awarded, but it's not awarded until you've earned it. So each promotion was based on merit. 00:07:11.704 --> 00:07:17.264 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adopt to. 00:07:17.264 --> 00:07:21.074 Unaccompanied tour to Korea. 00:07:21.074 --> 00:07:23.764 Why do you think that was? 00:07:23.764 --> 00:08:07.735 I just got married in Sacramento, and it was my first time overseas. And, unaccompanied tours are hard on both parties of the relationship. It was—the work in Korea, it has a severe winter and a severe monsoon season in the spring. And operating aircraft under harsh conditions is a challenge all in and of itself. 00:08:07.735 --> 00:08:13.514 So combined with the weather conditions, it created an even harder hardship— 00:08:13.514 --> 00:08:16.074 Yeah. Yeah. 00:08:16.074 --> 00:08:21.865 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adopt to. 00:08:21.865 --> 00:08:36.375 I liked the hierarchy. You know that the chain of command works and if you follow the chain of command that everything will go smooth. 00:08:36.375 --> 00:08:46.375 What were your interactions like with people you encountered while you were doing your stateside service? 00:08:46.375 --> 00:10:15.904 Each of the NCOs (non-commissioned officers) that were teaching the aircraft maintenance and the specifics of it were concerned about the airman's capability of teaching and learning complex systems and working within a framework to make the aircraft airworthy. And I took that extremely seriously. There were times when the aircraft was not ready to go. And in aircraft maintenance records, you can red "x" it if there's a safety issue. I did—had a full bird colonel in Korea who wanted to take my airplane for some kind of flight. I told him, "Sir, you cannot take this airplane. It's grounded." And I—the reasons for it were in the aircraft maintenance records. He said, "Well, I wanna take it." And I said, "Fine, let's go to the wing commander. We'll go to the wing commander, and if you can convince him that you can take this aircraft, then it's safe even though I told you it's not safe—you go right ahead." He did not go to the wing commander. (Forster coughs.) Excuse me. 00:10:15.904 --> 00:10:21.924 So you served in Korea during while the Vietnam War was happening? 00:10:21.924 --> 00:12:29.683 Yes. The Navy lost a ship called the Pueblo in the North China Sea. And the military was staffed by the Air National Guard. So I was part of the replenishment of relieving the Air National Guard from Korea so they could go back to their jobs in industry. I met pilots from Frontier Airlines, Braniff Airlines, American Airlines, Transamerica—and that's why I went to Korea. I didn't realize at the time that it was a blessing that I was sent to Korea rather than to Vietnam, because my aircraft in Vietnam had a name called Spooky. It was mounted with a Gatling gun, a .50 caliber machine gun, and a spotlight in the back cargo door, and it flew night missions only after Agent Orange had been defoliated. I didn't know at the time that I had a much better position—job position—than, you know, just—I was just flying passengers and mail from Osan to Kunsan to Gwangju to Daegu, like an airliner route. So we did that in the morning and had lunch in Daegu and then flew back in the afternoon. That was basically what we did. But, you know, I didn't realize, like I said before, that the—(Forster coughs)—duty in Korea, while harsh—(coughs)—was way different than what I would've experienced had I've been sent to Vietnam with all my other fellow aircraft mechanics. 00:12:29.683 --> 00:12:39.865 What was your—did you create any friendships or camaraderie with people that you served with while in Korea? 00:12:39.865 --> 00:13:31.000 Yes. Each person you get to be friends with and you learn who's friendly, you know? And the senior NCOs were really good. We had a crew of flight engineers, or flight mechanics, who—they were called—we were called the Bush Airline. And I gave you a copy of the article that was in the Air Force Times, talking about the Bush Airline. We just talked about the mission that we did in Korea, and, um (long pause)— 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:32.000 —Um— 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.835 —I just drew blank. Go ahead. Ask me another question— 00:13:34.835 --> 00:13:40.065 —No worries. What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:13:40.065 --> 00:14:34.225 Oh! In our barracks, we had a day room, and we set up a bar in that day room. And that picture that I gave you—of me with the Olympia beer can—I was helping run the bar in the barracks. So whenever we were not flying and not scheduled to work, we were able to drink right there. We didn't have to go to the Airman's Club. We had our own thing, and we stocked it with beer, and that's that kind of thing. It was an off duty place to recreate, I guess. Some of the guys went to Taekwondo, some of us just did other odd activities. 00:14:34.225 --> 00:14:40.000 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events during your off time? 00:14:40.000 --> 00:15:09.845 Well, there were so many amazing events at the bar. You know, you have to send people home—say, No, you have to go to your bunk. You can't stay here anymore (Forster laughs). But we had a Korean houseboy who took care of the common areas, and he took care of our bar. And he says, "You keep it clean" (Forster mimics accents, Beyer and Forster laugh). 00:15:09.845 --> 00:15:23.000 When you would fly on missions or in the aircraft, was there anything that you did for good luck while you were—before or after the flight? Or did it just become common that— 00:15:23.000 --> 00:16:47.404 —It's common. You do the pre-flight, you ensure that the aircraft is capable, and then you just go. We did have in-flight emergencies on several occasions. One time we were flying over Japan at Mount Fujiyama, and the wind was really severe. And the aircraft that—C-47 doesn't fly very fast. Maybe a hundred knots. You know, it's not much more than a hundred knots. And the winds were 80 knots, so we weren't making much ground speed. And the aircraft—you're flying at 10,000 feet, and at the top ceiling, and the mountain is higher than where you're flying. And when we landed in Tokyo, that particular flight, I dipped the tanks and we had, like, a very small amount of fuel. I don't know the exact amount, but it was almost out of fuel. So, but that was a severe winter and severe storm, and we flew right through it. 00:16:47.404 --> 00:17:03.365 So, what were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were in Japan ; Okinawa, Japan ; or in Korea? 00:17:03.365 --> 00:21:55.865 The local people were great. Let's see, we'll talk about—in Japan, they brought us—the base flight brought us our fuel, our oil, our in-flight meals. And they're real accommodating, you know? Whatever you want—they bring you hot coffee, whatever, out to the flight line. In Okinawa, we—because I was flying people and over water, you had to go to Sea Survival School. So I was at Sea Survival School in Okinawa at Kadena Air Base. They—(Forster coughs, long pause). When the Sea Survival School was going on, part of it was we were dropped in the ocean in one-man life rafts. And the shark repellent is discharged around your life rafts, and you're left there for, I think it was eight hours—it seemed like forever. But the most important part about that is I was able to observe aircraft operations from Kadena Air Base. They were flying missions to Vietnam from Kadena. I saw an SR-71, which the military never admitted existed until recently. If you wanna see an SR-71, you have to go to the aerospace museum. That's where one is available for you to see. But they would—it just had two tails, and they would bring it out of the revetment, and bring (it) to the end of the runway. And they did very little run up time. They didn't want anybody to be able to see that aircraft, because obviously they didn't want it to be known that it existed. So they do—(Forster coughs)—a short run up, and then take off and stand it on its tail. And it was out of sight—less than a minute, just gone. And I found out later that those were flying bombing runs to Vietnam. (Forster coughs.) So then, another time—that was the Sea Survival School. Another time we went to pick up an airplane from the Second Chinese Air Force I.R.A.N. (Inspect and Repair As Necessary). It's done in Taipei, Taichung—or "Taichay," Taichung—but Taipei. Anyhow, the Second Chinese Air Force did extensive overhauls for military aircraft. When we flew in there, we went in to pick up one C-47. That was not a gunship, just one of ours. And I saw a whole line of C-47 gunships, C-119 gunships, and C-130 gunships that's a sign that the Second Chinese Air Force was doing—it's a major overhaul. They take everything off of the engine, they—engines off—and then they put it back together, and they have really high maintenance standards. When we got the engine and engine runup after it came out of the inspection, there was no oil leaks on—a recip (reciprocating) engine is notorious for a lot of oil leaks, not a little bit, but it is always leaking something somewhere. And the Second Chinese Air Force did such a good job that we had clean engines—when brought it up, opened the cowling up, was clean. Our engine people rarely did work that good. You know, so I have a great deal of respect for the people from the maintenance facility at the Second Chinese Air Force. 00:21:55.865 --> 00:22:02.045 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:22:02.045 --> 00:22:20.105 I was at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, getting an "early out" to go to school. I drove cross country from MacDill Air Force Base back to San Jose, California. 00:22:20.105 --> 00:22:21.884 So you returned home? 00:22:21.884 --> 00:22:25.144 I returned to my parents' house, yeah. 00:22:25.144 --> 00:22:28.983 How were you received by your family and community when you— 00:22:28.983 --> 00:23:54.743 —By my family, fine. By the community and not for (redacted)—excuse my language. I have a tendency to be pretty frank. There was no welcome for the returning veteran. None. You know, it was at the height of the Vietnam War, the protests were going on, and I was going back to college, and I ended up in a sociology class called, Introduction to Marriage and Family. That was the only class that I could register for. And, having gone through a messy divorce while I was in the service, I was not a real joiner. You know, I was good time guy, but I didn't want anything to do with serious things. And, I ended up with—the marriage and family instructor had the class divided into groups, and they had one group with six women and me, and I ended up in that group and met my wife there. We will be married 52 years on December 9th. So, it stuck. 00:23:54.743 --> 00:24:03.265 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you go back to work? You said you went to school. What did you do after school? 00:24:03.265 --> 00:24:24.414 I worked for an insurance company for like almost 10 years. I trained insurance agents. And then I went into my own insurance agency. I had a Farmers Insurance agency for 10 years. 00:24:24.414 --> 00:24:28.000 Did the GI Bill affect you while you were going to school? Did that help you go to— 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.664 —Yeah— 00:24:28.664 --> 00:24:28.674 —school? 00:24:28.674 --> 00:24:44.025 Yeah. Yeah, I went to National University, completed my—what was left of my VA, and completed my MBA on the GI Bill. That was what, '78? 00:24:44.025 --> 00:24:50.194 Did you continue any friendships after this service, and if so, for how long? 00:24:50.194 --> 00:25:04.105 One of my friends is still in Portland, and I've lost track with almost everybody else. 00:25:04.105 --> 00:25:07.243 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:25:07.243 --> 00:25:32.144 I joined the VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars). But when the VFW couldn't seem to get their act together, and they couldn't decide whether I was an Army veteran or an Air Force veteran, I stopped doing business with them (Forster laughs). I said, If you don't know who I am or where I come from, I don't need to be here paying you dues (laughs). 00:25:32.144 --> 00:25:41.154 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:25:41.154 --> 00:27:09.605 That's—that's a big bunch (laughs). My service affected my life. I always had strong beliefs. I was fortunate enough to meet a strong woman who was able to help me in my shortcomings. We raised two kids together, one of which graduated from here (CSU San Marcos) in 2005. The other son is a tax auditor for the city of San Diego. And, we travel together. We were just recently on a Sapphire Princess Cruise to the Caribbean. We had a ten day cruise, and then we went two days to Disney World. And the kids are really important, and we just—our first granddaughter was born during COVID time. She's five years old, and she just started private school in El Cajon. I don't know if she'll ever go to a public school again. But— 00:27:09.605 --> 00:27:15.105 What are some life lessons you learned from your military service. 00:27:15.105 --> 00:27:36.694 About, your word is your bond. You need to be accountable for the things that you say, and you need to stand by your words and be complete with everyone that you deal with. 00:27:36.694 --> 00:27:46.855 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 00:27:46.855 --> 00:28:42.505 I would like everyone to realize that when you go into the military or you go into an unfamiliar situation and you go with an open mind and an open heart, you're going to learn things that may not be in the book. They may not be—(Forster coughs)—what you think you should be, but you need to listen to your heart, I guess. But you need to learn from people who offer their knowledge. And it may not always make sense. It's important to be open to new opportunities and apply yourself. 00:28:42.505 --> 00:28:58.204 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of your military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never had before? 00:28:58.204 --> 00:29:01.095 No, I don't think so. 00:29:01.095 --> 00:29:05.414 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:29:05.414 --> 00:30:29.144 That they are people who have the same wants and aspirations as you do, but have chosen to go into the service for whatever reason they go there. But they end up benefiting much more than they expected because you learn from life experiences, you learn from positive experiences. In the Air Force, I didn't get to see a lot of the world, but I did see a lot more than most people do. You know, in my experiences of going to Korea, or going to Okinawa, or to Taipei to the overall facility. All of those are learning experiences, and each one you meet people who are really important to the operation, to the aircraft, to the people. And they have a tendency to consider that it's important that you understand the reasons why you're doing something as well as doing it well. 00:30:29.144 --> 00:30:36.944 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:30:36.944 --> 00:31:43.934 There are so, so many. You know, I just, I learned a skill that I did not know before I went in. It could have taken a job—a job, um, what I wanna say—a job, uh, United Airlines—I was offered a job when I came back from the Air Force. One of my friends, my parents' neighbors was a corporate attorney for United Airlines. And he says, We can send you to Chicago to our maintenance facility. You can be an aircraft mechanic there. And I just met my wife and I said, My desire to work in harsh environments again is not something I wanna do (Forster laughs, coughs). So I turned him down, and I ended going into the insurance business. 00:31:43.934 --> 00:31:45.535 Thank you for your time today. 00:31:45.535 --> 00:31:46.535 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Forster II, James Robert. Interview November 22nd, 2024. Description An account of the resource James Robert Forster II served in Korea as a crew chief and flight mechanic for the U.S. Air Force during the Vietnam War and reached his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. Forster recalled the challenges of an unaccompanied tour to Korea, the strains it put on his first marriage, as well as his return home during the height of the anti-war movement. He praised the education and experiences he gained from military service, including travel, recreation, training, and the G.I. Bill. After military service, Forster worked in the insurance business and met his wife at university. He reflected on his family, travels after retirement, and the life lessons he learned from military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-070 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Robert Forster II Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource United States. Air Force—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Aircraft mechanics United States. Air Force—Noncommissioned officers West Valley College (Saratoga, Calif.) McClellan Air Force Base (Calif.) Kadena Air Base (Okinawa-ken, Japan) MacDill Air Force Base (Fla.) National University (San Diego, Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Korea Vietnam Wichita (Kan.) San Jose (Calif.) Sacramento (Calif.) North China Sea Osan (Korea) Kunsan (Korea) Gwangju (Korea) Daegu (Korea) Mount Fuji (Japan) Tokyo (Japan) Okinawa (Japan) Taipei (Taiwan) Taichung (Taiwan) Tampa (Fla.) Portland (Or.) San Diego (Calif.) Caribbean El Cajon (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. James Robert Forster II License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael, Joel. Interview September 23rd, 2025. SC027-087 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/032bee5939ae038703eabe2141fb43d4.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 56 Employment at the San Diego Wild Animal Park In the mid-eighties, Rafael began working at the San Diego Wild Animal Park (now Safari Park). His first position was to support the summer concert series as a crew member through a variety of activities. Shortly after, he became a Public Relations Specialist for the Park, where he eventually coordinated media-oriented location shoots. Wild Animal Park ; Safari Park ; Zoological Society ; public relations ; condors 0 1005 Working for the Steve Powers Craft Festival In 1987, Rafael got a side job as a stage manager at the Steve Powers Craft Festival, which traveled around the southwest United States. He coordinated both a music stage and a variety stage. During this time, he met Jim and Teresa Hinton and began to bring them in on his own recordings, forming a group called Reluctant Angel. Teamsters ; Steve Powers Craft Festival ; stage manager ; Jim Hinton ; Teresa Hinton ; Reluctant Angel ; Healing Heart 0 1410 Music industry's significant interest in Rafael's music Rafael sends his demos he recorded as Reluctant Angel to Paul Rothchild, a producer that he had met earlier. Paul communicated that Rafael would potentially be offered a publishing contract. Two additional band members were added: a drummer, David O'Brien, and a guitarist, Davey Allen. After an audition, the band waited for several months. After a second audition, Rafael was told that the record company had decided not to move forward with the contract. Reluctant Angel dissolves. Paul Rothchild ; David O'Brien ; Davey Allen ; Elektra Records ; Jack Holzman ; Donald Miller ; audition ; Elektra Records 0 2954 Formation of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael begins again as a duo with Carl Johnson, and guitar player he had known of in high school. The duo played many small coffee houses all over southern California. They added a drummer, Jeff Berkley, and Rafael's daughter, Jamaica Rafael, as violinist. The Joel Rafael Band release its first album in 1994. Carl Johnson ; Jeff Berkley ; Jamaica Rafael ; Joel Rafael Band 0 3229 Evolution of radio and its effect on the Band As radio was going through a transition, new genres were established including Adult Album Alternative, which allowed a lot of independent music. Because of this and a relationship with KKOS in Carlsbad, the Joel Rafael Band began to show up on playlists. Rafael formed a production team with his daughter, Corrina, The band began won a contest that got them an opening spot at the Troubadours of Folk Festival at University of California Los Angeles. Adult Album Alternative ; KKOS ; Troubadours of Folk Festival 0 3994 The Kerrville Folk Festival A new folk festival, The Kerrville Folk Festival, opens in Kerrville, TX. In 1994, Rafael submits songs the Band is recording for an album, and they are chosen to play at the Festival. Although the Band did not win the contest the first year, Rafael and his daughter returned in 1995 and won. Rafael feels recognized for his hard work. Because it is nationally known, Kerrville becomes a major stepping stone for the Band. Kerrville Folk Festival ; Texas ; Jamaica Rafael ; Joel Rafael Band ; recognition 0 Oral history NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Hello, it's Jen Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is September 23rd, 2025, and it is 11:20 a.m. This interview is taking place at the California State University San Marcos Library, Kellogg Library. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.000 Of course. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:52.000 This is our second session of the interview, and we wanted to start off with--we were talking about some of the jobs that you held during the time that you were developing your music, and you had just gotten a job at the San Diego, what was called then the Wild Animal Park. 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.000 Right. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:56.914 So let's start there. Tell us about that job. 00:00:56.914 --> 00:16:26.000 Okay. Well, I went in to the Wild Animal Park and applied for a job because I was pretty desperate for regular income. And they had some openings. It was the summer, I believe it was summer of 1985--one year either way. I could probably find that out. But in any case, I was able to get a job there, a part-time job, for the summer. They had a summer concert series in an area of the park they called the Mahala Amphitheater. It was sort of a big grassy area, and they would do--they had been doing for a few years--a summer series of concerts there. Mostly, I guess what you'd call, oldies, you know, sort of established groups from like the sixties and seventies mainly. Jan and Dean, America--I'm trying to think of some of the groups that were there. The combination of folks that were in, say, like the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band at that point. Those were the kind of bands that they were booking. And I got a job as a concert assistant, which basically, I was on a crew with about four other people. And we would come in on like Thursday and start preparing the concert area, the stage, cleaning it up. And then on Friday we would literally set up all the microphones and get the equipment out and get it all ready for the show. And then the sound people would come in and get everything going. And then they would send us up to various jobs around there, cleaning the stage, the backstage area, the dressing room trailers, going up and getting the food for catering for the artists, that kind of thing. And then during the show, crowd control and running a spotlight, those were kind of the job responsibilities, and that was a part-time job. And I worked at that that summer. And it was a lot of fun, you know, to be there. But they would only let you in a part-time job, I think they wanted to try to keep you to like 20 hours a week. Sometimes you'd go a little over that. But they wanted to keep you at 20 so they wouldn't have to give you insurance and that kind of thing. And the thing that was good about having a job with the Zoological Society was that once you had a job there--whether it was part-time, if it was part-time or full-time--when new jobs were available, they would put them up on a board that was only accessible by the employees. Those are the only people that would see the board. I guess there were some administrative jobs that they would send out to publications, to certain publications, to try to draw in people appropriate for those jobs and educationally and so forth. And so a job came up on the board for the title of Public Relations Assistant. And there were two people working in what was then the Public Relations and Marketing Department at the Wild Animal Park. There was the marketing manager, a lady named Martha Baker, and the public relations coordinator. And that was a guy named Tom Hanscom. Both of them were younger than me, but basically they were running that department. And Public Relations and Marketing was one department. I was just so fortunate to get that job because they had, I think it was like 300 applicants and I was--for what the job actually was, which was mostly clerical, somebody to file, fill out purchase requisitions and do filing and answer the phones. It was kind of a secretarial, clerical position. And that's not my forte (laughter). Clerical work is not my forte. But I could--I might have even said this last time--I could type just fast enough, like, whatever it was, 30 words a minute or something (laughter), I could type just fast enough to be considered. And because I had actually--I'm gonna' back up just a little bit. When the summer concert series ended, I desperately wanted to keep working at the park. But you have to wait for a job to come up that you can apply for. I did actually get a second part-time job going into the fall after the summer. And there wasn't really a name for that job because the situation was that the park had been established in 1972, and this was like now 13-14 years later. And all of these beautiful signs on all of the shops and all the exhibits that had originally been put up in the park were--I guess you'd say they were sandblasted signs, sandblasted and painted signs, very, very crafty-looking wooden signs. And they were all wearing out. The paint was chipping off. And every department--merchandising, food services, signage for exhibits--they all needed, all the signs were just in ill-repair. So they hired me basically as a sign painter. I wasn't in any department, which is very unusual in a huge bureaucracy like that. But I kind of worked under the construction and maintenance guy and kind of under the buildings and grounds guy. So I had two different supervisors from two different departments that were kind of my bosses. And then I was on call for any department that had signs that needed to be refurbished. And so I'd get a call from merchandising, or I'd get a call from gardening, or whatever department that had signs that they needed fixed. And they gave me a golf cart that was mine to use when I was there. So I'd golf cart over to where the sign was, check it out, get a ladder, take it down, figure out what I needed to do to make it new. And then I could go up and requisition paint and brushes and whatever I needed from the supply area. And then I would--there was a little shed right back by the monorail tracks. It was just like a little wood, plywood, wood shed. And that became my office. And I would repair my signs inside that shed and just outside of the shed. It was just my work area. And that might have been my favorite job at the Wild Animal Park. But another job came up, and it was full-time, which meant I could get insurance and a regular 40 (hours per) week salary. And I applied for that public relations job. And because I had gone around to all these different departments and worked with so many people from so many departments at the park, everybody knew me. And I'd made friends with a lot of people. I'm kind of a people person. And so I made the cut. I got hired, even though there were 300 applicants, because I knew both the marketing manager and the public relations coordinator. I'd worked with them on a couple of events that they'd done for the park. And so I got that job, and it was mostly clerical. And I'm gonna' say it's probably about no more than three months-four months into that job, the Zoological Society decided that they were going to separate marketing and public relations and make them two different departments. And by doing that, what they were gonna' do is that Martha, who was the marketing manager, she was now gonna' be at the zoo as the marketing manager for the zoo. There'd be no marketing department at the park, only public relations. And then Tom, who was the public relations coordinator, would now be the public relations manager, and he would handle all news and that kind of thing. So that left me. I was either gonna' be going to the zoo with Martha as a marketing assistant, or I was gonna' be staying at the park with Tom as a public relations assistant. So I pretty much, behind the scenes, went to Tom and begged him to keep me at the park. You know, it was closer to my house. I had a really good working relationship with Tom. We got along really well. And I just didn't want to go down to the zoo. And out of the two, public relations and marketing, I preferred public relations because in a lot of corporations they are combined, but they're really different from each other. Marketing is really different from public relations. And the way that Tom explained that to me was that marketing was like advertising. You know, you pay for visibility. Public relations was about getting visibility for free (laughter). For a story, or something that was going on that was of enough importance to be reported in the newspaper. And so, turned out I got my wish, and I stayed at the park with Tom, and we kind of formed a, we formed a real team, the two of us. Because now it was just the two of us in that department. And we became really good friends. I think maybe a year or two, maybe two years after I was there, I had started coordinating locations. So basically there was a lot of kind of media-oriented things that were going on with public relations. Like there would be news stories. We'd have a new animal born, endangered species, you know, that was being born in captivity. And all of those stories, including the condors, which had at that point, had all been brought in from the wild because they weren't gonna' survive. There were only maybe, I don't know, three or four mating pairs still in the wild. And so Fish and Wildlife and a couple of different zoological societies kind of got together and formed a committee, I guess you'd say, to protect the condors. And the first decision they made was that they needed to be brought in from the wild--because we were gonna' lose 'em all--to see if we could breed condors in captivity. And so that was already in progress when I came into the department. And Tom was very much involved in the news dissemination of that story and was working very closely with the bird curator, who was one of the head condor people nationally. He was the curator of birds at the park, but he was also one of the main people working on the Condor Project (California Condor Recovery Program). And so Tom and I and Bill Toone, the bird curator, and then other bird people were kind of involved in anything that happened with condors. And at that point we had the first captive, hatched condor--happened while I was there. So we disseminated the news on that, Molloko (first condor born in captivity). I don't know if you remember when that all happened, but that was a pretty big deal. And then they--the breeding program was successful enough that a certain point later we started to reintroduce birds into the wild. And now there's a lot of condors in the wild. It's been very successful. So I was involved with all of that, but as an assistant. But I was also coordinating media and video and projects of that kind for things that were not news, but, you know, like we would have--Joan Embery would come up and do a story on a new animal. We had this guy, Dave Scott, who was the weatherman at KUSI, who had a, I guess you'd call it a sidebar program that he presented from time to time on his weather show about different things going on in San Diego. And one of the things he would do would come up to the park, and if there's a new animal that had been born or some story at the park, he would come up and do a little feature on it. And so, whenever that would happen, I would be the person that would accompany those people around to the different areas at the park. And then that kind of morphed into location scouting 'cause there were commercials that wanted to come in and shoot, like MasterCard and MotorTrend. And we did the MotorTrend car of the year layout for their magazine one year there in the East Africa exhibit with rhinos and giraffes and stuff around. And that involved hiring keepers, animal keepers, overtime to work with the film crews and stuff. And I was kind of the coordinator for all that. And so at a certain point, they let me write my own title. And so I created my own job there, which was a Public Relations Production Coordinator. And so anything that was production oriented fell into my area. Also, the other thing I did there was VIP (very important person) tours. So if they had somebody that would come to the zoo, for instance, like a celebrity, a VIP, a lot of times it was celebrities, sometimes politicians, but just somebody they might want to give a special tour to, then they would call me up, and I would meet that person and take the Land Rover and drive them out into the exhibits so they could see the animals up close, answer any questions they had. Photographers that would come in that wanted to photograph a specific animal or had a project they were working on that they needed to access certain areas, I would get them into those areas and make sure that it was safe and that we had keepers out there that knew what to do to make things safe. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:23:30.000 And so that was my job for probably six or seven, maybe eight years at the park. I'd say like eight years of the twelve that I worked there, maybe even ten years of the twelve I worked there. And towards the end of that run, which is right around let's say 1992 or '93--I left the park in '96-- but about 1990-- I'm gonna' say about 1990. Maybe even '89. Let's say '89. I picked up another side job, and I had the full-time job at the park. But I was building up now vacation time, so at a certain point, I'd have like two or three weeks of vacation time built up and that would--it was kind of up to me to schedule that, to use those hours. And I went, when I had that job in public relations, I went from being a regular employee, a Teamster, to being an administrative person. So, I had to retire from the Teamsters Union, which I always took a lot of pride in being a union member with the Teamsters (laughter). But I had to leave the Teamsters, and then I became like an administrative person. So let's see, where was I? About 1989, I picked up this other job with a guy named Steve Powers, and he had a company called the Steve Powers Craft Festival. (This was in 1987.) And he would produce and coordinate craft festivals in like four or five cities during the holidays, like just before Christmas. And then sometimes just before Easter. I think we did a Thanksgiving, a Christmas, an Easter, and a summer--just a summer run of shows. And they would be--we would go to convention centers and set up these big craft festival shows, like in Reno and in Las Vegas, in Phoenix, in Tucson, San Jose--just in all these places where they had convention centers mostly in the southwest. We didn't really go east, but we did Arizona, we did Nevada, we did California. I guess that's pretty much it. And my job was the production coordinator for the Craft Festival. And I managed two stages. I would travel with Steve to the convention centers and help set up the whole convention center with the--it would be him and myself. We would drive out to the convention center, pulling a trailer with all the stuff in it. And then about four or five other people would meet us there that had booths at the craft festival. And he would trade their booth fees for them to come in a day early and help with setup. So we had--that was our setup crew. And we'd kind of all meet at that first festival and set it up, and then when that festival closed down, we'd all travel together to the next festival and reset it up and so on. And I coordinated two stages--a variety stage and a music stage. And one of the acts on the music stage was a couple that did Irish music, Jim and Teresa Hinton. They were a married couple. And we got to be friends 'cause I was always doing their sound. And I had my studio. I built my studio at that point, and they wanted to record. So they lived in San Diego. So they started coming up to my house to record, recorded a couple albums at my studio. And Jim inspired me at a certain point in there, he said, You know, you're recording all these people all the time, and you need to record your own album. And I was recording my own stuff, but I'd never get it done 'cause I had a studio--it's easy to just not get anything done, you know? Whereas if you are booking a studio from someone else, and you're paying an hourly rate, you have to get something done. And that had always been what I'd done in the past. But now I had my own studio, and I just literally wasn't ever finishing anything. I'd go in, and I'd start a song and get it to a certain point, and then I'd be recording somebody else, and I'd go in and record a different song. And, you know, forget about the first one I recorded, and I just never was getting anything done. So Jim said to me, You need to record your own album. And kind of implored me to do that. And so I recorded the Healing Heart album, which is the cassette tape that's in the collection I gave you today. And that was probably in '89. So they recorded a couple albums there. And then, turns out Steve had been hiring them to play on these craft festivals. And I was actually playing one set also. I was doing all the coordination and managing the two stages. But there was Jim and Teresa, and then there was kind of a bluegrass band. And then there was kind of a modern kind of Eagles rock kind of a band. And then there was kind of a fifties rock band. So there were like four acts that would rotate through the day on the music stage. And then they had a magician and a comedian and a juggler on a variety stage, and we all got to be great friends, just traveling to these different shows. But what I did is I started to bring Jim and Teresa in on some of the stuff I was recording--some of my songs--to do harmonies 'cause they were really good singers. And that kind of evolved into us working together more, and we kind of formed a group that started performing at the craft festivals called Reluctant Angel, which was the name of one of my songs and became the name of my publishing company, Reluctant Angel Music, which that's still the name of my publishing company. And we started to record some demos. You know, we call 'em demos, like just demonstrations of the songs. And we recorded about, I think probably four songs, five songs, a couple of Jim's songs, a couple of my songs. And they really were sounding really good. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:30:04.000 And so I decided that I would call up this guy, a producer that I had met, and I think I mentioned it in my earlier interview. He--Paul Rothchild. He produced Bonnie Rait. And earlier in his career, he produced Judy Collins' folk music, Tom Paxton, the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, which was the first electric band on Elektra Records. So he was already like a super producer. And I had met him in 1976 because he held a song for Bonnie Rait, and Bonnie Rait and he held a song that she was gonna' possibly record on her album. This is before she was really famous. She didn't record the song, but we remained friends all those years. So I decided I would send these demos to Paul Rothchild with a note that said, Hey, do you know a music attorney or someone in the music business that might be interested in what we're doing? I didn't really ask him personally because kind of my experience with him was we'd become friends and we'd stayed in touch more or less, but they hadn't done my song when they held it. So I didn't really have a particular in with him other than knowing that he was connected to the music business and maybe he might listen to this stuff and know somebody that might be interested. And I didn't hear anything for a while, and then it got to be the holidays. This was before cell phones. And so we were on vacation. I'm gonna' say it was a few weeks before Christmas and sort of the typical thing is in the music world, probably in business everywhere, is that nothing much happens during the holidays. Once it gets to be November, don't expect much to happen until after the first of the year. And I think it's especially true in music if you're trying to get some attention, it's better to wait 'til the springtime. But I sent him these tapes, and it was holiday times, so I didn't really expect anything right off the bat. But it was about two weeks later, we were up in Santa Cruz on vacation, and I just decided to call my phone and check my answer machine--'cause we didn't have cell phones then, but we had answer machine--and just see if we had any messages. Not from him particularly, but just anything. And there was one message that was from Paul Rothchild. And he said, Hey, this is Paul Rothchild. I'm calling you about your music. He says, Why don't you give me a call at home? Here's my number. Let's talk about your music. And it just blew my mind (laughter). I was like, Whoa. And so I called it back, and he said he was really interested in the stuff we'd sent and that he'd played it for a guy that he'd worked for for years--that had hired him many years ago in the music business, but he couldn't tell me who he was right now. But that he was a very connected in the music business and at this point, owned a small record company and a publishing company. And that he felt that if I could send him some more demos of the quality that I'd sent him that this person would be inclined to offer me a recording and a publishing contract. And so, of course, we were just over the moon. And so we just started recording more demos--me and Jim and Teresa. And we brought in a friend, an old friend of mine named David O'Brien, who was a drummer, to play drums on some of the stuff. And then one of the guys who had the fifties retro band with the craft festival was a guy who'd been in the music business for years but had had marginal success but was well known as a guitar player. His name was Davey Allen. And he had a group called Davey Allen and the Arrows. And they had recorded basically surf music, instrumental surf music. But he had also recorded music for a couple of the motorcycle movies of the--I guess they were in the sixties, some of these motorcycle movies that came out there, kinda' like B movies. And they would have this electric music. A lot of that was recorded by Davey Allen and the Arrows. And so he had a group called Joe Cool and the Rumblers, and they were the fifties group, right? That played at the craft festival. So we got to know Davey. And so we brought him in to do some lead guitar, electric lead guitar on some of the stuff. So we'd kind of formed this foursome--it was basically the three of us, well, it was a five-piece, actually. It was the three of us, plus the drummer and the guitar player. And we kept sending these demos to Paul and then at a certain point, he said, You know, really liking this stuff you're sending. And I can tell you now, the guy that I've been playing this stuff for is Jack Holzman. And Jack Holzman is the guy who started Elektra Records in the late fifties and hired me--Paul Rothchild--to record these, the great folk groups of the late fifties--Tom Paxton, Judy Collins. I forget all the different names--John Sebastian, The Lovin' Spoonful. These were great groups. And then, later, Paul Butterfield Blues Band, which was the first electric band. And then after that, Love, and just so many groups. I mean, Elektra, it was like one of the three big labels. And Holzman was like a music mogul. I mean, when he told me that, all I could think of was The Doors movie where Paul Rothchild and Jack Holzman are portrayed in the movie and the scene where they walk out and offer Jim Morrison a recording deal. That was kind of running through our heads. We watched the movie, and we're going like, I can't believe these are the guys that are listening to our stuff, you know? 00:30:04.000 --> 00:46:36.000 So eventually they set up an audition at a club in Santa Monica called At My Place. And it was right on Santa Monica Boulevard. And Paul Rothchild knew the owner of the club. So what he did is he was able to secure the club. It was on a Wednesday night or something, from eight o'clock until, or from seven o'clock until nine o'clock or something like that. And so we came in early and set up and did a sound check. He came in and mixed our sound for us. And then it was an invite only. So we invited some friends, and then Jack Holzman and his wife and his brother and some other people from the, where there were business associates of his came in and filled the place up. And we did this concert audition. And when we finished, you walked off the stage into a little, not really a dressing room area, but a little off-stage area at this club. And Jack Holzman, just like in that Doors movie, Jack Holzman and Paul Rothchild came back and told us how much they enjoyed it. And Jack Holzman was saying, You guys have a really great group, and I think Paul Rothchild is the perfect guy to produce you guys, and we really like what you're doing. And they offered us a development deal for a recording contract. They just, it just languished, (Phone rings) Sorry about that. And nothing happened. We kept sending him demos and just nothing happened. At a certain point, Paul Rothchild asked me if I knew a manager or anybody in the music business that, if we did get an actual deal on the table--which he was trying to make happen for us 'cause he really liked what we were doing--that we would need to have some kind of representation. And I didn't really have any representation at that point, but what happened was I told a few people at the Wild Animal Park that this was all going on. And one of those people was a girl who had worked at the park for years. She was a mammal keeper. And she was specifically a gorilla keeper. She'd worked with the gorilla troop there for years and was a real expert on primates. And we'd become friends over the years that I'd worked there. And we were having lunch together one day at our lunch break, and I was telling her all about this record deal--lingering, hanging record deal. And she said, Do you have a manager or anybody in the music business to guide you through this? And I said, No, not really. I said, I mean, I know about copyrights and the things I've learned on my own over the years through being in music all these years. But I don't have any real professional management or anything. And she said, Well, I'm going to introduce you to my brother. He's Jackson Browne's road manager. So she introduced me to him, and we had a phone conversation. His name is Mike Sexton and goes by Coach 'cause he was originally a coach when he got hired into the music business to be a road manager. And he called me up, and we had a conversation and he said, well, he could hook me up with one of three different managers, personal managers that he worked with. He could introduce me to one of three of them that could probably guide me through this process. One of them was Elliot Roberts, who was Neil Young's manager. And also kind of Steve Stills' manager off and on. And then there was another guy named Bill Siddens, who had been the Doors' road manager but was now a personal manager. I think he managed David Crosby, I think at that point. And then Graham Nash, I forget what his manager's name was, but maybe--I can't remember. There were three managers, Siddens and Elliot Roberts. And then the third manager was Jackson Browne's manager, Donald Miller. And I said I would like to meet Donald Miller, Jackson Browne's manager, because Jackson Browne was like on the top of my list. He was the best writer that I knew of. Really, I, as far as I was concerned, he was just one of the best songwriters that I'd ever heard. And his level of support for environmental issues, there was just a lot of integrity attached to him and his music. And so, I liked the other guys' music quite a lot, everybody that he mentioned, but something about Jackson Browne, that was kind of the area I just felt that was gonna' work best for me. So he introduced me to Donald Miller, who goes by Buddha. That's his nickname. So he told me, Well my name's Don Miller, but my friends call me Buddha. So he had me come up to his house up in Studio City and meet him personally. He was also managing Jennifer Warnes at the time. So he said like, Hey, if you've got any songs that might be good for Jennifer Warnes, bring those along. So I took some of those songs up. We had an initial meeting. I left the tapes with him, and he just said he would be there when they made a decision. When they finally made us an offer, he would be glad to guide us through it and hook us up with a good attorney that he knew that could walk us through, so we would get a fair deal. And so then it was just a waiting game. And I would check in with him, and he used some vernacular that I won't repeat, but basically the gist of it was they either need to get their act together or forget about it. I'd say, well, he'd say, well what's going on? If they said anything? Is anything new going on? I go, no. They're just telling us to keep sending more demos. And he says, Well, I would tell them to (laughter)--and I won't say what he said, but it was basically do this or get out of town (laughter). And so I, to tell you the truth, I was just intimidated to the point where I wasn't gonna' say that to them. I wasn't gonna' say, Well, hey, you need to tell us what's going on now. I wasn't gonna' make a demand on Jack Holzman and Paul Rothchild, who I also highly respected. I hadn't really met Jack yet, but I knew who he was. And so finally they set up an audition, and it was at the At My Place club. We went there, we did that, they offered us the deal. I guess I covered that. And so we are in this waiting period now, and it went on for months. Like it went on for nine months. And so, finally Paul kind of indicated to me that they were kind of getting cold feet, that attitudes were kind of changing with the people he'd been talking to. Now I didn't know who all of those were. I knew he was talking to Jack. He basically said you have two fans at the company, Jack Holzman and myself. He says, But there's some other people that are at the company that have influence that aren't so sure they wanna' do it. And I said, Well, you know, where does that leave us? And kind of in conversation, we came around to that we could do another audition and try to increase the excitement of the other people that weren't really behind us right then. So we set up another audition, a second audition, and I guess if I'd have been able to read the writing on the wall better, I would've been able to tell that the odds weren't nearly as good as they had been the first time. The excitement level wasn't the same. The economy was not great, hadn't--nine months had gone by, the economy kind of sucked. And found out later it was Keith Holzman, Jack's brother, who was basically the lifelong accountant for Jack's record companies, that was feeling like we weren't gonna' be a good investment. But they decided that they'd let me, in Paul's words, pursue my star, and they would set up another audition. But it was completely on us. We weren't gonna' do it at the At My Place club, which actually, it wasn't the At My Place club anymore, it had changed hands and was some other club. So if we were gonna' do it, we would have to figure out where we were gonna' do it and make it convenient enough for those people that were important to be there. So we decided we would rent a rehearsal studio in Burbank 'cause we had to go to where they were. They weren't gonna' come down to San Diego. And so we tried to be creative, like, how are we gonna' do this, to really capture the attention of these guys and get them excited about this again? And so we decided we would like I have--all my furniture at my house is my parents' and my grandparents' furniture. We've never bought any furniture. One thing my mom left us was all the furniture. And it's like really some nice old chairs. I mean, really comfortable furniture. They don't make furniture like that anymore. And so I've got four or five nice upholstered chairs, and I've got a rocking chair. I've got some little side tables and some nice lamps. And so we say we'll just take everything outta' my living room. We'll just literally strip my house of all the furniture and lamps and accessories that make my living room cozy. And we'll rent a truck, and we'll truck that all up to Burbank to this large rehearsal studio that basically was just a big room with a sound system in it. And we would rent a bunch of chairs, and we would set up some folding seats. But then we'd also put all of the comfortable chairs and stuff in and with the side tables and the lamps and make it feel like a big living room. We would create this atmosphere. And a couple people, one guy from the park that worked at the park that I'd become friends with--he was a security guard there. He volunteered to go with us. And then another really close friend of mine that had a house up in Temecula came down, and he drove the truck up for me. And then they helped us set it all up. We got up there like at ten in the morning, we rented this place for the whole day, set up the the place. We had a sound guy come in from Sound Image that I knew that volunteered to help out. He came in to mix us. And we set up another audition. We got mason jars, small mason jars, like a couple cases of mason jars. And then we got a water cooler that you could draw water out of. And we had all these mason jars set up so that people could get fresh water. 'Cause we didn't really serve any refreshments, we didn't have enough money to do all that. And then we invited everybody we could that would actually make the trip up to Burbank to come see us, telling them that this is really important, we gotta' really make an impression, and it's better if there's an audience. And so we put on this whole big thing. When we left to go up there, it started raining. Just after we got stuff loaded in the truck, it started raining. So we unloaded everything in the rain, got it all in there. It rained the whole night. Everybody showed up, and Jack and his brother, Keith, came. They came in, we played a show. Seemed like it went good. They were very accepting and very cordial and friendly, and it all felt really good. And then they all left, and it was pouring rain, just a downpour. So we had to load all that stuff back up in the truck. This is my side story to the whole experience (laughter). Loaded stuff all up in the truck. Drove back down here. Got back down to my house at about probably about three in the morning. But we had to return the truck. So my friend Stuart drove the truck, and I drove my car down to Escondido, to the U-Haul place where we had rented the truck, or Ryder or whatever it was. I can't remember. And there was a place to park the truck and then a key drop, so we dropped the truck and dropped the key. I turned my car around to pull out. And the driveway's kinda' one of those driveways that kinda' goes down in the middle. There's sort of a drainage right in the middle. And so it's a little higher on the sides, you know? And so as I turned around, I realized I had a flat tire. And so it's now, it's four or four-thirty in the morning, been up all night, still in my clothes that I wore to perform in. And now I've gotta' lay down in the puddle in the driveway and change my tire (laughter). So the omens weren't good (laughter). Still raining, pouring rain. We drive back up to my house, and Stuart gets his car and goes home. And I guess I went to bed about, I dunno', five-thirty in the morning. Slept 'til about noon or one. Got up waiting to hear something. And about two or three o'clock, I got a call from Paul Rothchild, and he said, Yeah, we basically decided not to do it. And we were devastated. Because it'd been almost a year of this. And so a couple of weeks before the audition, that last audition, I was also told by Paul Rothchild that the company was only interested in my songs, that they thought Jim's songs were good, but they were really only interested in my songs. And so at the new audition, they wouldn't hear any of the songs we'd sent that were Jim's. They just wanted me to play my songs. So I had to deliver that message to Jim and Teresa about two weeks before this last audition. Of course, they were devastated with that news, but they hung in there 'cause basically what I was saying was, Look, that's not how I feel. Once we get the deal, we'll do what we want to do, but we've gotta' hang in there to get the deal. So that was kind of where I was coming from. I just, I wanted this thing to happen. I was 43 or 44 years old, so it was like 30 years ago, 35 years ago. And so they agreed to do the audition, all that stuff. We went and did it. And then, of course, we got that news. And that was sort of the end of Reluctant Angel. 'Cause they just like, Well, see you later, Joel (laughter). 00:46:36.000 --> 00:52:37.000 And I just kind of went into a really deep depression. The thing that kept me going was that they had said that when we had the first audition, they had told us that they didn't think that the drummer and the guitar player really, they didn't really care for what they were doing on the demos. They think we needed that, but they wanted me to find another guitar player 'cause they thought that, what they said--it was kind of cruel 'cause what they said about Davey--'cause Davey had had a couple of failed deals over the years. And they just said he's kind of considered to be used goods. This is how they talk about people in the music business that don't become really successful. Then if they've had a couple of record deals and they've never become successful, even if their music's really good, then they're considered used goods. It's sad. It's not very nice. We never told him that, but we did get a different guitar player, who did the second audition with us. And he was a guy that I had met in high school. He was a couple years younger than me, a fabulous guitar player. And when I was in high school, we had these hootenannies, you know, and everything was acoustic folk music. And he was in a different folk group. He was the, actually the younger brother of a classmate that I knew that was a year ahead of me. And he was a couple years behind me. So when I was in high school, he wasn't quite there yet. And then my junior year, he was a freshman. And we never played music together back then, but I recognized him as a really good guitar player. So then, later, after we got outta' school, I did a couple of demos at a couple of different studios. And I brought him to play guitar on some of those. And that was sort of the extent of our relationship. I actually knew his family because his family and my family had been friends, local friends in the town we grew up in, Covina, California. And his dad, they had a Quaker background. And so when I applied for my conscientious objector (CO) status, he was my counselor, and he was kind of the guy, who I worked with to make sure that, to try to make sure that I would have the copacetic answers for the questions that the draft board was gonna' probably ask me. And I think I covered that in my other interview. They turned me down, so I wasn't a CO. So I got Carl Johnson to come play with me, and he did that second audition with us. And then after the whole thing fell apart, turns out Carl had stopped playing music when he'd gone to college, and he'd become like a, what do you call it? Not really a psychologist, but a psychiatric counselor, like a marriage counselor, relationship counselor. And that was what he was doing for a living when I contacted him to bring him in as the new guitar player. He had been kicking himself for about three years because he wanted to get back into music. And every time he'd think about it, he'd sort of make a commitment that he was gonna' do it and then never did it. So when I called him, it pulled him back into music. So he was really excited 'cause it gave him an excuse, and he was able to sort of justify it with his job. And he was still a really great guitar player. So we started playing together as a duo after Reluctant Angel broke up. And I'm still working at the Wild Animal Park during all of this. So we're playing these little coffee house shows here and there. Any place we could play, all the way up to Ventura--from San Diego up to Ventura--any coffee house, Riverside County. We're just driving everywhere and playing for like nickels and dimes. Which I think anybody that's dedicated to the music and their art in that way, I think would do that because it just, it's not about the money, it's really not. It's just about doing something you really feel a calling and a love to do. And so, um, we were playing these little coffee houses and there was a coffee house that popped up in Poway, and you've probably heard of it 'cause it's had a few different incarnations but Java Joe's, And Joe Flammini, had this coffee house that he started. And there were a couple people that were starting out, young people that were playing acoustic music. And I heard about this one guy, John Katchur, who was playing there. He is still--I just played a show with him last weekend. We're still friends. And so we went down to check it out, and they had like open stage nights. And I started, called Carl and had him come with me. And we started playing those, and we met another guy down there who was at the time, a percussionist and was playing with different people. He's now pretty well known in San Diego. He's won a bunch of San Diego Music Awards and stuff. But he started playing with us, playing percussion with us. Jeff Berkley was his name. And then my daughter, who was kind of hitting the wall at NAU (Northern Arizona University) in Flagstaff, 'cause she wanted to be in the music program, and she already had a lot of experience because she'd taken private music lessons, Suzuki violin and piano lessons. But there were a lot of classes she was required to take that she had already just blasted through all that stuff, and they wouldn't let her, what do they call it when you crash the class or whatever? 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:38.000 Audit. 00:52:38.000 --> 00:53:19.000 Audit the class, right? They wouldn't let her audit the classes. So she got very discouraged and her--actually, one of her instructors said, Hey, look, you know, you're a really good player. Your dad's got a band, you're flying in into California on weekends to play with him. You don't really need to get a degree in music to be valid. You're already a valid playing instrumental player. And so she kind of went with that, and she came back home and started playing in my band. So it was the four of us. 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000 And that was the Joel Rafael-- 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:26.784 That's the Joel Rafael Band. Yep. 00:53:26.784 --> 00:53:33.000 And what year would you say that it was when that title came to fruition? 00:53:33.000 --> 01:06:34.000 Yeah, 1993. And we released our first album in 1994, and it was a self-titled, The Joel Rafael Band. And you've got that in your collection. Right then was when radio was going through a big transition, and there were some new genres that were established. Not Americana yet, but it was AAA and AA. So AA was--AAA was Adult Album Alternative. So it was album tracks. And then the other one was Adult Alternative? I don't know, I can't even remember what they stood for, but it was AA and AAA. And they were allowing a lot of independent music. I mean, it was getting into the mix. It wasn't just big labels. And just happened that in Carlsbad there was a station that was a AAA reporting station. So they report to the periodicals that list the charts for the different genres, or there was a rock or folk--or I don't know if there was a folk one--but there was rock and country, and I dunno' if they called it oldies or pop, whatever. So the AAA was a very open format and KKOS was the station in Carlsbad. And they were a very small station, not a huge transmitter or anything, but they were a reporting station. So they reported their playlist to Billboard and Record World and another periodical that was called the Gavin Report, which is no longer around. And so all of a sudden, we were showing up on playlists in some of these magazines, which caused other stations to pick up our record. And we'd sent our record, my daughter and myself, we formed a record promotion team. So she was still in school in--not Jamaica, but my other daughter, my younger daughter, Corrina. She was in school at Northern Arizona University, also. And was doing--she had a radio show at a radio station there. And we decided to, we got onto the whole idea and concept of how this worked with the record promotion and stuff. And there were certain call days when you could call the stations and talk to the program directors. And they would only take calls on like Tuesday and Wednesday between these hours. So we got our record to all of those stations that were reporting stations for AAA. And I think there were, there were probably about 70 stations, and pretty soon we were getting played on about 30 of them. But mainly due to the fact that on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, when those call days were supposed to happen, she would call--we would split up the list of the 70 stations, and she would call--over two days--she would call 35 of them, and I would call 35 of them from my office at the Wild Animal Park (laughter). Which was probably not allowed. But there were so many calls being made from the Zoological Society, long distance calls. It was minimal. So I mean, I had a lot of time when I was really busy in the job that I had there, and I had other times I just wasn't so busy. We didn't have any shoots or any people coming in for a story. I was basically just doing stuff in my office. And I'd slip in these calls to promote my record. And not with my name, though. I made up--I don't remember what the name was--but I made up a name. I'm so-and-so record promoter for this small label, Reluctant Angel Records. And the group, Reluctant Angel--no, it wasn't Reluctant--it was Joel Rafael Band at that point. And we managed to get our record on 30 or 35 stations. The irony of the situation was that no one could get our record. We didn't have distribution, so they could hear it on the radio, but they couldn't find it anywhere. It wasn't in any stores or anything, you know? We were developing mailing lists and just trying to figure out different ways to get it out there. And playing every gig we could play, every coffee house, every club gig we could get. Just before the band formed, just backing up a little bit, Carl's wife said, Hey, there's gonna' be a contest. They're having a big festival at UCLA (University of California Los Angeles). This was in '93. So it was just before, the year before our record came out. And I hadn't formed the band yet, but Carl and I were playing as a duo after Reluctant Angel had fallen apart. And so she said, Yeah, they're having a contest at this club called Highland Grounds in Hollywood. Over two days, they're gonna' have people come in and play two songs each after they screen--they're gonna' screen the demos, and then they're gonna' pick--I forget how many people, I think 20 people. And then they're gonna' over two days, they're gonna' have those people each come in and play two songs each. And then a panel of judges--I think there were three or four judges--would determine two winners. And then those winners would be the opening acts on Saturday and Sunday for the Troubadours of Folk Festival at UCLA. I can't think--Drake Stadium is where they had it, which is their big football field. And it was being produced by this guy, who had been a really big concert promoter in the seventies and eighties named Jim Rissmiller. He'd had a group called Wolf and Rissmiller, which is a big concert promoter back in the day. And so I met this guy, Jim Rissmiller, because I won the contest. Carl and I went, and we won the contest. I actually knew I was gonna' win before they announced the winners, because there's a show that was long established in Los Angeles called Folk Scene, and it airs on KPFK, and it started in 1971. So it's still running. It's a syndicated folk interview show, and they interview national touring folk acts--the top people basically--on that show when they have new records coming out and stuff. And I had met them years ago because when I discovered the program in the seventies I went up there. I never got on the show back then because I wasn't good enough (laughter). But I did meet Howard and Roz Larman, who put the show on and got to know them. And they were the kind of people that kept track of who was doing what in music, in folk music. And so they'd kind of followed me over the years. And so when this contest came down, they were two of the judges. And the other two judges were the people I mentioned in my interview last time, Len Chandler and John Braheny, who ran the Alternative Chorus Songwriter Showcase, who 15 years previous had spotlighted my songs, so they knew who I was. So all of a sudden, we show up on this show at Highland Grounds on one of the nights and play two songs. And then somewhere between when they announced the winners, I guess I--I don't remember why I was talking to Roz Larman, but for some reason I was on the phone with Roz Larman, and she said, Well, you know you're gonna' win, don't you? And I said, Well, no, I don't know that. And she said, Well, believe me, take it from me. You're gonna' win. And I said, Well, how can you say that? They haven't announced the winners yet. And she says, Well I'm one of the judges. I said, Yeah. And she says, And I know all of the acts in Los Angeles. She said, And I'm just telling you, you're gonna' win. And, you know, that was pretty cool for her to say that. Those are the kind of people that, people like that, that have come along that that will tell you in honesty. They're not just blowing hot smoke, but they'll tell you in honesty what they think. They'll tell you if they think it's bad, and they'll tell you if they think it's good. And I've had people tell me both. People you can trust to tell you the truth. And that can be really valuable especially if they're telling you, giving you constructive criticism. 'Cause we don't see ourselves the way other people see us. And so there's a bit of calculation that goes into something like that when you're presenting something. You wanna' get it right. And so we did, we won that contest. And so we opened that show at Troubadours of Folk Festival. And, of course, this was after that whole deal had fallen through and everything. And this is kind of a cool thing. So we were on at eleven o'clock in the morning, like the whole thing's gonna' go all way into the night and then into the next day. And we were on first at eleven in the morning, as people are still kind of coming into the stadium. So at ten o'clock in the morning, they had us go up and line check, just make sure everything was--and the lighting grid wasn't even up yet. It was like down here, you know? 'Cause they hadn't even pulled it up yet, and it was raining. And it was a rainy morning. And so I'm up there, and we're just checking out the sound system. I just feel somebody tapping me on the shoulder, and I look, and it's Paul Rothchild. And he had come because he had actually produced some of the acts that were on the show--Peter, Paul and Mary, and Judy Collins. And I mean, that show had everybody on it. You know, John Prine, Tom Petty, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Bonnie Rait, Joni Mitchell made her comeback at that show. She hadn't played in like, I don't know, seven years or something like that. And it was crazy just all the stars from the folk world that were there. And that just really warmed my heart. I said, Paul, what are you doing here? He said, I came to see you (laughter). So that was really cool. And then he introduced me to Peter, Paul and Mary that day and to a bunch of people, which was really, really great. And one of the people he introduced me to was Peter Yarrow. And told me about--that he's a really good songwriter and this and that. And Peter says. Well, do you know about the Kerrville Folk Festival? And I go, No. And he goes, Well, the Kerrville Festival, it's in Kerrville, Texas, and that's the real songwriter festival. He says, You've gotta' come to that. Well, I kind of filed it. And then Paul Rothchild took me aside--and I can put this in my biography, I don't care. 'Cause most of these people aren't even alive anymore. But, Paul, I said, Wow, thank you for introducing me to them, to Peter, Paul and Mary. Me and my wife grew up on them. We went to see them when we were in high school on dates. And he says, Yeah, yeah, they're great people. He said, But don't ever give them America Come Home. It's one of my songs. And it was like one of the songs that Paul really liked. And I said, Really? He says, Yeah, if they ever ask you for it, don't ever give it to 'em. And I said, Why? He says, Because they don't sell 12 records (laughter). That's the ways people talk. I go, Oh, well, okay. You know, so I filed that. 'Cause that's all gonna' be relevant later (laughter). So we played that show. Let's see. And then we found our way to Java Joe's, and we formed the Joel Rafael Band. So, I'm already there. We recorded our first record. We got it on the radio. Let's see. 01:06:34.000 --> 01:08:58.000 Okay, so while we were recording the first record, I'm at my office 'cause I'm still working at the Wild Animal Park. And this is 19--1994. Probably April of 1994. And I get a call at my office, and it's John Kachur, this other songwriter guy. Hey, do you know about the Kerrville Folk Festival? Well, this is a year-and-a-half later from when Peter Yarrow told me about that. And I go, Oh yeah, I think I've heard of that (laughter). I didn't remember. It sounds familiar. Yeah. Well, what's that? He goes, It's a festival in Texas. And he says, And they have a contest--they have the New Folk contest there. And every year, they pick six new folk artists out of 32 artists that are screened to perform there. And then they pick six artists that get to come back and perform the following week on the festival, and the deadline for submitting material--because I missed it the year before when I saw, when I met Peter, and that was the summer of '93. Well, now we're in the spring of '94. And he says, And the deadline is tomorrow to submit. And I just happened to have two songs on a cassette tape that we were recording for the album. One of 'em was America Come Home, and the other one was Solo Pasando, I think it was called. And so we--I packed those up with, I typed out the lyric sheets, stuck them in a FedEx envelope and then ran down to FedEx right after work, or I, maybe I left early that day. And FedEx was in, right? San Marcos, their main office. So I drove over there, and I sent that to the Kerrville Folk Festival. Just before the deadline. And I got picked. And so in May of 94, I went to Kerrville to compete with the New Folk performers. 01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:01.000 And was this with the band or just you? 01:09:01.000 --> 01:17:38.000 No, what, what I did is--well wait a minute. No, it was with the band. So what I did is, my daughter was coming from Northern Arizona University to play with us on weekends. She was still going to school because this was early in the incarnation of the Joel Rafael Band. And when I got the invite, I decided, yeah, I'm gonna' take my band. So I took Jeff, and I took Carl, put it on a credit card, we booked our flights, flew out there. They gave us camping, but we stayed in a hotel 'cause I wasn't gonna' try to camp and play. I was already in my mid-forties at that point, going on 50. I just didn't want to camp (laughter). And so we got there, we went through the competition, and then on Sunday, just before the main show, they announced the winners. And we were sure we won. We just felt so strong about it, the three of us. And they started calling the names--five, six. Oh, that's it. Oh. Oh, we didn't win (laughter). So we were a New Folk finalist, but we didn't win. So that was disappointing and expensive. So we came back home, and we just kept playing as a band. My daughter--then she came--was home. And so then it was the four of us all the time. And then, the next year came around, and we were recording our second album. It wasn't done yet, but I just decided, well, I'm gonna' go ahead and--if you don't win, you can enter again. So I sent two more songs to Kerrville, and I got picked again (laughter). So '95 we went back. And this time I took my daughter. I left my band. I left the Carl and Jeff, and I took my daughter, Jamaica. And the two of us went and that was '95. And we played. And I just really had my emotions in check. It was like, that was really pretty hard last year to go through all that--come here, do this, so far from home. And then--'cause we hadn't been traveling that much yet. And then to play and feel really good about your performance and then not make the cut. It was, it was disappointing. And so I just, in preparing Jamaica for it, I said, look, you know, there's like 32 people we're competing with here over the weekend. And there's a lot of really good songwriters. It's all about songwriting, and people coming from New England and from the South and from Canada and just all over the place. And we, we're from California. And so we're waiting the night--on Sunday when they're announcing the winners. And they announced the first winner, and, I'm just thinking, I'm just gonna' keep my emotions in check 'cause there's a real good chance we're not gonna' get picked. And they announce the second person, and it's us. So we go up there. We had gone around to, in '94, we had gone around to some of the campfires 'cause after the show, they have the--it's a big ranch. It's like a maybe 30-acre ranch. And so after the show, which is in this one area of the ranch, they have these camping areas, and people form these campfires. And they--it's been going on for so long that they have names. You know, there's Camp Cuisine, and there's Camp Stupid, and there's Camp--they have all these funny names for these camps. And so the first year when we were finals, me and Jeff and Carl went down, and kind of nobody would really let us in the circles. It was very kind of clique-ish. And so, I walk up on the stage--me and Jamaica walk up there--and I'm standing next to this guy, Tim Bayes. He's from Nashville, and he's a songwriter. He was the first guy they called. And I had met him earlier already and real nice guy. And he just looks over at me and he says, Now see if they'll let you in the campfires when you go down there. It was pretty cool. And it was like recognition, you know? And so we went down and got to play in the campfires. And that was a really, a real good kickoff for us. We got a couple more festivals after that in Texas. Rod Kennedy, who was the guy that had established the Kerrville Folk Festival and was still running it then, he's passed away now. And they've had a couple more directors since then. But we became kind of like his pets. He just loved our band. And so we played, I guess it was the 25th anniversary show. And then they have a summer show and then they have one in the fall called Wine and Music, Kerrville Wine and Music, at the same place. Smaller festival. And so he had us on the Wine and Music that year. And then the next year, we were on the main festival again. And then we weren't on Wine and Music, but the next year, we were on Wine and Music. For like about four years, just every year he had us on one or both of the festivals. And so Kerrville kind of became, that became kind of our spot. And you, it's like just being accepted in Texas as a songwriter, it's kind of kind of weird, but it was great. And so that really was a big stepping stone, that Kerrville Folk Festival 'cause it's kind of a nationally known thing. And you can kind of use that to parlay onto other things--winner, New Folk winner at the Kerrville Folk Festival. I mean, it's not such a big deal to me anymore, but it was a really big deal then. And it was--allowed me to get some other engagements, open up some other doors. So we played everywhere. We played Rocky Folks Festival in Colorado, and we played the South Florida Folk Festival, and we played the Kerrville Folk Festivals. And we played shows in Minnesota, and we were just going everywhere. (This interview has been edited at the request of the narrator.) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> video 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview September 23rd, 2025. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part two interview, Rafael discusses the evolution of his musical career and the formation of The Joel Rafael Band. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States San Diego Wild Animal Park Folk festivals California condor — Conservation — United States Record labels Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) West (U.S.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Burbank (Calif.) Poway (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Kerrville (Texas) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Cheryl Dinning OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview May 16, 2013 WAHA-01 00:00:00 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Navy ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Gay military personnel--United States ; Afghan War, 2001-2021 ; LGBTQ+ life Cheryl Dinning video DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/404f80c9a30af3ea36457e736a0d34f2.mp4 Other video English 0 Knowles’ background and enlistment with the U.S. Navy Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) discusses her place of birth and why and how she ended up enlisting in the United States Navy. Whittier, California ; enlistment ; U.S. Navy ; 9/11 terrorist attack ; Great Lakes, Illinois 0 138 Basic Training Knowles describes her experience during Basic Training, including her impressions, role within her unit, and what she learned. U.S. Navy Basic Training 0 255 Experience during Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell Knowles recounts her experience during A School, where she met a girl and started a relationship, and was eventually outed. Knowles describes her process to discharge, her secret romantic life, and how she escaped discharge, including her marriage to a sailor for the sake of appearances. Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell ; machinist training ; sham marriages ; discrimination ; A School 0 605 First tour of duty Knowles speaks to her first tour of duty, “shore duty” in San Diego repairing survival equipment sent out to ships. She also discusses being a woman and being in the closet in the Navy. shore duty ; San Diego, California ; woman and gay experience in the Navy 0 703 First onboard duty and first deployment Knowles recounts her first ship-side duty as a machinist on the USS Ronald Reagan, beginning 2005, and her first deployment in 2006, where Knowles deployed to Operation Iraqi Freedom. She speaks to the places she stopped on the way to deployment and “the sailor’s life.” Knowles goes into detail about life aboard the USS Ronald Reagan including her work duties, the food, the informal ship economy, and the “political game” of the military, and how she worked within it as a gay woman. Knowles also recounts the specifics of her deployment, and the best parts of being overseas. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Operation Iraqi Freedom ; machinist ; locksmithing ; ship life ; Subway [sandwiches] ; McDonald’s ; sexism ; shipboard politics ; Damage Control Central ; Dubai ; Ramadan 0 1340 Second deployment Knowles recalls her second deployment, which started six months after returning from her first, when President Obama started the Afghanistan troop surge. Knowles recounts their ship launching bombing runs over Afghanistan, prayer services for pilots onboard the USS Ronald Reagan, and her misgivings about those services. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Afghanistan war ; bombing runs ; shipboard prayer and religion 0 1446 Third deployment Knowles describes her third deployment aboard the USS Ronald Reagan, back to Afghanistan to “drop warheads on foreheads,” and her increasing disillusionment with the ongoing wars she was being deployed to. Knowles also speaks to her brief periods back home, and how her short time at home impacted her. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Afghanistan war ; bombing runs ; disillusionment ; binge drinking 0 1559 Fourth deployment and release Knowles briefly delves into her fourth deployment and finally, in July 2009, her release from ship life, where she returned to advanced machining school. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; advanced machining school 0 1607 Shoreside life and loss Knowles recounts her partner’s fertility treatments and the birth of her two daughters, describing in detail the medical emergency and passing of one of her newborns. Knowles discusses the difficulty of therapy and leave time for her in the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell era, and how that policy impacted her grieving process. Knowles also recounts her use of Navy Fertility Services a year later, and the ways in which she benefitted from her time in the Navy, as well as the ways in which she views the hypocrisy of “The Sailor’s Creed” in how the U.S. Navy treats gays, women, and minorities. U.S. Navy Fertility Services ; Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell ; pregnancy ; infant mortality ; The Sailor’s Creed 0 1978 Separation from Navy Knowles briefly touches on her separation from the Navy and her joining of the U.S. Navy Reserves. separation ; U.S. Navy Reserves 0 2023 Interview conclusion, communication Knowles concludes her interview by talking about how the Navy facilitated communication with family and friends while she was deployed, as well as social media use in the Navy. communication ; email ; U.S. Postal Service ; Facebook ; calling cards 0 Interview with Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Dinning discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, an how if forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. &#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:04.144 --> 00:00:05.365 &lt ; Silence&gt ; . 00:00:05.365 --> 00:01:02.155 My name is Cheryl Knowles. I was born in Whittier, California, a suburb of Los Angeles. I joined the Navy in April of 2002. I served during operation Iraqi and Enduring Freedom as an E-6. I come from a large extended family of military, mostly Army. I have uncles that are, uh, colonels and generals in the Army, uh, stationed on the East Coast. My grandfather, who I was closest to, was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War, and he pretty much inspired me to want to join the military, listening to his war stories and the time in the service. I decided pretty much when I was a kid that I wanted to join the military. I remember watching war movies and school, movies about boarding school and military schools. And I was always fascinated with that life. And I just knew, I knew in high school that I was going to join. 00:01:02.155 --> 00:02:18.094 I tried to do the college thing after high school and get a real job in the civilian world, live out on my own, uh, before I joined the military. And it wasn't until after 9/11, uh, which reaffirmed my assumptions that that's where I belonged. Six months after the 9/11 attack, I found myself in a Marine recruiting office. Um, they sent me on my way though, saying that I had too many tattoos. My next stop was the Army recruiting office. And, I probably could have joined the army, but I was looking to pretty much ship out the next day, and their process was taking a little bit longer. And on my way back to my car, just walking past the Navy recruiter, which I had no intentions of going in and talking to them, um, a couple sailors pulled me inside and said, Hey, you know, what are you doing here? Are you interested in the Navy? I'm like, yeah, but you know, I got tattoos, and, you know. And they're like, come with us, we'll get you in. So I did the testing, the physical process, and I was shipped off to Great Lakes, Illinois two weeks later for bootcamp. 00:02:18.094 --> 00:03:21.000 Navy Basic Training was great. I had a great time. It was basically summer camp gone wrong, you know, coming from trying to live on my own as a young teenager, young adult, and working in the civilian world struggling to get by. I now had people walking me to medical, making me get my teeth clean, walking me to breakfast, lunch and dinner. And, you know, I got eight hours of sleep at night, and pretty much everything was done for us. You basically just had to keep your mouth shut and your head down, and that's how it went. Um, I made a lot of friends in basic training. I was kind of like the, the unit clown. I had a sense of humor about everything just because I was a little bit older than the other recruits. So, I was a little more boisterous than the others. And, you know I got in a little bit of trouble here and there, but it was mostly "drop and gimme twenty" or "gimme some pushups and sit-ups." But, you know, I was all about that. So, I had a great time with it. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:04:15.205 Basic training was interesting in the sense that this was the first time I was in a large group of people from basically all walks of life, people from all over the country. We had people from different countries, different religious views, political views, crazy people, weird people, funny people. So it was, um, it was a learning, it was a learning experience, trying to get used to working together as a team with people that think differently than you. But it was a good time! And I learned a lot about people, and I learned a lot about different parts of the country and how diverse we are. But, you know, we came together and we worked as a team, and we all survived via nine weeks of basic training together. 00:04:15.205 --> 00:10:05.000 Upon finishing basic training, I was sent right across the street with my A School. I was going to a machinist training school that was about eleven weeks long. There I met, um, I met a girl, and this was during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell era. And we were in the same school together. We hung out a lot. We ended up dating. We tried to keep it, you know, on the DL just because we were scared of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. And we had heard horror stories about people being outed and kicked out of the military. Um, word got out that we were dating or people thought we were dating, and they reported us to the higher-ups. So one day we both showed up to school, and we were escorted out of school by military police, and we were placed in separate interrogating rooms where we were both asked questions about our sexuality and our relationships to each other. We really didn't have any idea what was going on. It caught us off guard. Um, we didn't admit to anything. We were, you know, basically scared out of our minds because we both wanted to make twenty-year careers out of the Navy. And here they were starting the process to discharge us for homosexual conduct. We were taken out of our training school, and we were placed on a legal hold status where we weren't allowed to continue trading. And they were basically processing us out of the military without any evidence or confessions or anything, just based off of a statement that a roommate I had had made. During that time, we were still allowed to go off base and hang out and stuff, and we did, you know, we weren't doing anything wrong. We would go to Chicago and hang out. We had a hotel that we would go and stay at on the weekends, and the hotel owner would check us in under a male and female name that wasn't our own names, just to kind of cover us, you know, we were staying in the gay area of Chicago. So it was kind of--it was kind of cool and kind of sneaky where we would check in as Mr. and Mrs. something other than what our name was. But basically we were, we were hiding. We were trying to be ourselves, but, you know--in a different, I don't know, identity I guess. Um, one night we were at a club, a gay club in Chicago, and we were just hanging out, having a couple drinks, and in walks one of our chiefs, You can imagine the surprise on her face, you know, we're in a gay bar and here comes one of our superiors walks in. I don't know how she found us, but she basically wanted to tell us that she was gonna go to bat for us, we were gonna be okay, and that we both needed to find a male and, uh, get married. I had met another gay, uh, sailor. His name was Chris. And we were pretty good friends, and we all hung out together. So in my attempt to find a "husband," I pretty much told him the scenario is, "Hey, I need to get married and portray myself as a heterosexual female, and I need a husband, you know? Are you down for it?" And, you know, he thought about it, and it ended up benefiting us both because we would get paid the rate of a married a couple for housing and stuff like that. So, we went to a courthouse in Chicago. We exchanged vows and had an awkward peck on the cheek, and voila, we were married. My girlfriend at the time, Tara, she also got married. She married a friend of a service member who was an immigrant of Poland. And, he needed citizenship. She needed a husband, so she can look like a heterosexual female to stay in the Navy, and so they got married. So here we are, both E-1s, um, scared out of our mind thinking we're gonna get kicked out of the Navy and having to get married to a male. It was just, it was weird. It was awkward, it felt wrong. I had to tell my family about it. It was just--the whole situation was unpleasant. It was scary. Um, I felt like we were targeted and discriminated against, and that's just part of Don't Ask, Don't Tell in the military during that time. After the charges got dropped against us for homosexual conduct, we were both free and clear to finish tech school. And, um, that's what we did for the rest of our time in Chicago. You know, we laid low, made plans to get stationed with our respective "husbands," and just tried to stay out of trouble. I got stationed in San Diego. It was my first duty tour. I joined the Navy to get out of California and to explore the world. So you can imagine my surprise when I saw orders that I was going back to Southern California. I wasn't too happy about it, but it turned out to be a good experience. 00:10:05.000 --> 00:11:43.315 My first tour was on shore duty in San Diego. I was repairing survival equipment that was sent out to the ships, like life rafts and survival food kits and stuff like that. I was the only female working there, and there was probably about twelve males. And the first thing that I got asked when I checked in, uh, had nothing to do with my training, my abilities, my goals. They wanted to know if I was married, and once I told 'em I was married, they wanted to know where he was for how long and it was just like this weird, invasive personal interrogation into my life. But, you know, it just--it just set the tone for the rest of my military career and I know it's a very male dominated profession. And as a female, you have to work twice as hard to prove yourself. And that's what I did the whole time I worked there was I worked, uh, I tried to keep my personal life, my personal life. I had to lie about what I was doing on the weekends and who I was doing it with. Um, you know, and then it was--it was hard. It's hard to live like that and work in an environment where you can't talk about who you went to dinner with the night before, or--or what you're gonna do that weekend. You just, you have to make things up and make it vanilla and cookie cutter and non-interesting. So they stopped asking questions. 00:11:43.315 --> 00:13:11.845 I worked there for two years, and then I got transferred to my first ship, which was the USS Ronald Reagan. I felt comfortable taking orders there because my girlfriend from A School who became my best friend--uh, the dating thing didn't really work out with us. But, she was stationed there. And her supervisor, or my supervisor too, was also gay. So I felt comfortable taking orders there. I was excited and looking forward to it. And I checked on board in February of 2005. We spent a lot of time out to sea that year. In preparation for the ship's first deployment. We deployed for the first time in January of 2006. And, uh, we were heading over to the Operation Iraqi Freedom. On the way there, we stopped in a few countries ; Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, um--and I think Japan. But we would stop in these countries for three or four days at a time, and we'd get off the ship, go blow some steam out in town, do a lot of drinking. The guys would all go get hookers and--it's the sailor life, I guess. 00:13:11.845 --> 00:14:21.000 My job aboard the ship was a machinist. So I worked down in the machine shop with about twelve other machinists. And we were also connected with the welders who also did the plumbing. So we were involved with the ship's sanitation system as well. And there was a lot of times where I was knee deep in a bathroom that's overflowed with, uh, with poop and pee, trying to stop it from flooding the rest of the ship. I was also the ship's only locksmith. I went to a security institute in Kentucky and got trained on basic locksmithing and safes and vaults. So, on an aircraft carrier there's typically three to four thousand safes. So I kept pretty busy. I was also the only locksmith for our battle group, which included about six other ships as well. So whenever something would break on another ship I would helicopter off my ship and spend the night on another boat for a night or two until it took me to, uh, however long it took me to do the repair. 00:14:21.000 --> 00:17:31.000 Ship life is interesting. Um, we lived in a small confined space with about sixty females. Our racks were stacked three high. The middle rack is the ideal place to, you know, to sleep. So eventually I got a middle rack. We had a small locker, and our mattress lifted up, which exposed more storage space. There wasn't much room for storage, so you pretty much took what you could, the basics. Underwear, socks, and t-shirts. A few pairs of civilian clothes, and the rest was room for your uniforms and toiletries. We had two showers for sixty females. Three toilets and two sinks. You would imagine that it would be super crowded in the mornings, but with the way shifts work out the sea, we have a night shift, the day shift, um, people that sleep a little bit later because they had watched throughout the night or whatnot. So, mornings were a little bit crowded, but it wasn't ridiculous as you would think it would be with sixty females trying to, you know, line up for two showers. The food was good starting out on deployment. The farther away from the United States, you get, the more food you get imported from different places. So once we got to the Middle East, the milk, uh, changed color and texture. The lettuce, by the time it would reach us was brown. Vegetables weren't really good. Lunch meat was--colorful, but, um, ship life is about networking. So if you know somebody who works in the galley or works in the chiefs' mess or where the officers eat and you can do something for them, then you're gonna get taken care of food-wise. I ran the laser engraving shop that--you know, I can make signed, engraved coffee cups or pretty much anything. So, pretty--everybody wanted to send home gifts to their family. So I did a lot of engraving of personal items in return for real food and cooked food and cookies and snacks and stuff like that. I got my laundry done, so I rarely had to wait in line to use the washers and dryers, which is mass chaos on a ship. Um, I also--I did some work for the post office, you know, on the side. And when they would fly on mail, the postal guys on shore would go and pick up pizzas or Subway and throw 'em in the mailbox--mail bags. And even though it took a few hours or eight hours to reach the ship, by the time he got those cold McDonald's hamburgers or pizza, they were the best, best things you've ever had. 00:17:31.000 --> 00:19:34.000 Um, being a worker in engineering, I had to prove myself as a female. Like I said, you had to work twice as hard to prove that you could do the job of a male, and it was common for girls or females to, you know, not want to do their job, and they'd get placed in more like an admin type of a setting and less engineering, less hands-on. And that's just what some, you know, females prefer. But I wanted to be out there with the guys getting my hands dirty and stuff, so that's what I did. And it took a while but I gained the respect of the guys that I worked with, and they pretty much--they just start thinking of you as one of the guys. My sexuality was never an issue while I was on that ship. I worked with some of the coolest guys you'd ever meet. They treated me fairly. We made gay jokes or whatever, and, you know, it was cool. I was just like one of the guys. The military is kind of a game. It's a political game. It's all about who you know, good ole' boys club, and doing what you got to do to--to get ahead. Promotions and evaluations aren't based fairly, It's based on who likes you and its popularity contest. On my ship, I learned to play the game, and I did it well, and I got good evals. Sometimes you have to keep your mouth shut and let things slide, like, you know, I put up with some sexual harassment and--and stuff like that, and physical assaults. But, I just felt at the time that this is the way it is, and me complaining about something that's going on would just come back negatively on myself. And so, you just learn to let things go and kind of just join in, I guess. 00:19:34.000 --> 00:20:45.935 Being deployed to the Iraq area of operation, um, it was really hot out there. The food that we got on board, it wasn't good. We spent long hours working, because the air conditioning would stop working or we'd have problems making water. So, uh, we were pulling like eighteen-hour days. On top of that we would have watches in the middle of the night where we would sit down in Damage Control Central. We were basically the 9-1-1 / 4-1-1 dispatcher for the entire ship. Um, we had four hour watches while we were out to sea, and they rotated throughout the day. So if you ended up working from seven in the morning until ten at night, and then you had to be on watch from midnight to four am and you're only gonna get about two hours sleep before you had to get up and start working again. And that was just the way it was. You know, we just, we lived on Red Bull and taking Xenadrine and, you know, little sleep. 00:20:45.935 --> 00:22:20.000 Some of the best parts of deploying overseas were visiting different countries on the way to our area of operation and on the way home. Um, checking out the different cultures in Asia was a lot of fun. And I learned a lot about bargaining and drinking and met some really nice people. Um, a lot of, uh, a lot of shadiness goes on behind the scenes with people trying to solicit themselves sexually or trying to sell us drugs and aftermarket, fake watches and stuff like that. But, um, there was a lot of people that got in trouble, you know, no doubt. But, every time we would pull into a port, they would brief us on what to look out for, different customs and courtesies in the country, what to do, what not to do. Like, we pulled into Dubai and it was the end of Ramadan, so, they basically told us that we weren't allowed to drink until Ramadan was over. And that people, you know, they would stop throughout the day and pray and stuff, and just to stand by, let them pray and then continue on what we're doing, not to keep talking and yelling or taking pictures and stuff like that. Basically just telling us how to act. 00:22:20.000 --> 00:24:06.555 Six months after returning from our first deployment, President Obama started the surge to Afghanistan. And, we were the first aircraft carrier to be sent over there. So, just as we were unpacking from a deployment, we were throwing our stuff back in our sea bag and getting ready to head out again. This one, uh, we didn't have as many port visits just because we were in a quick hurry to get over where we needed to be. And, once we got there, we basically launched planes that drop bombs over Afghanistan and return. And it was pretty cool because they would record it and they would play it on the ship's TVs. And we'd get to watch like bombs drop, and you can see the explosions and stuff like that. What I found interesting was, every night before we go to sleep, the chaplain comes on the ship's intercom and does an evening prayer. I'm not religious at all. And I was actually, you know, I got kind of tired of having to listen to evening prayers every night because I felt like they were kind of forcing prayer and religion in the military. But I don't know. Anyways, they would--they would pray and, um, they would pray for the safety of our pilots as we're dropping bombs that are killing essentially civilians and people. And they were just, I don't know, using Christianity to justify war, I guess. And I mean, I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I'm--you know, isn't God and religion against war? And here we are, interpreting the Bible to justify what we're doing over there. 00:24:06.555 --> 00:25:25.000 Our surge deployment lasted about four months, and then we were headed back to San Diego or, you know, home port. And then, um, we deployed again the next year back to Afghanistan, where we sat off the coast for six months, doing the same thing. Flying jets, uh, "dropping warheads on foreheads." And by this time, this was my third deployment in three years. I was over it. I'm like, why are we here? What are we doing? You know, when we first deployed to Iraq, I was like, why? What are we here? What are we doing? If we're here because of 9/11 and the bad guys are in Afghanistan, why are we looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? But anyways, you just don't question anything. I guess you just do your job like a good soldier or sailor. But by my third deployment, I was--you know I was tired. Tired. I didn't believe in the mission anymore. I wanted to go home, I missed my family. I had missed funerals and weddings, and my nephew was born. I was just tired of it, and I was like, what is this for? Why am I doing all this? 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:59.184 Time in port turns into drink fests because you didn't know when you were going to be deployed or sent out to sea again. And our schedule was so busy. We'd come back from a six-month deployment, and we'd be home for, you know, two weeks, then we'd be back out to sea doing exercises again for another month. So being home was like a--we treated it like a port visit, so it was just like nonstop partying and drinking, and, you know, it was just, it was just, it was bad. &lt ; laugh&gt ; . 00:25:59.184 --> 00:26:47.955 By the time my fourth deployment came around, I was just about to transfer to a new duty station, but I still left and did half the deployment with my ship and my crew. Um, and I was way over it by then. I'm like, I don't want to do anything. So I, I just pretty much chilled and hung out and talked with everybody and didn't really take much seriously. And then in July of 2009, I was finally, you know, released from ship life. And I was sent back to the States to go to advanced machining school before I went to my next command. And I was pretty excited because I was gonna be off the ship for two years, and I could sustain some sort of normalcy in my life. 00:26:47.955 --> 00:30:38.914 During this time on shore duty, my partner and I--we had been together since right before my second deployment in 2007. So this is 2009 now. And we were in our thirties, so, you know, we're discussing kids and stuff, and we, uh, we started using fertility treatments through the military, in order to get pregnant. And while I was on shore duty, my partner Nicole, she got pregnant with twins, and I was able to be there for all of the doctor's appointments. Although I had to lie and say I had medical appointments to go to, and I was very fortunate that nobody ever questioned me where I was going or why I was leaving early. I was basically allowed to--I was in charge of the, uh, the machine shop, so I pretty much did what I wanted to do. The work still got done though, but I prioritized my personal life a little bit above what was going on at work. The twins were born prematurely in February of 2009. And, one of 'em quickly deteriorated and had to be transferred to a children's hospital. This got a little complicated with work because, I wasn't able to talk about, you know, the fact that I was about to be a parent. The fact that I had a partner, or the fact that I had an infant that was really, really sick. So the next day after they were born, I had to go back to work, and I had to leave Nicole in the hospital with one baby, and the other one was at (Rady) Children's Hospital. I got a phone call while I was work saying that I needed to get to the hospital, right away at Children's Hospital. And I had to drive over to UCSD to get Nicole discharged as soon as she could. She'd had a C-section. She could barely walk, but I kind of threw her in the car. And we got over to Children's Hospital, and we were able to hold our daughter before she, she died. Uh, she had a heart defect that caused other problems, and she didn't make it. I was still in uniform that day, just because I had come from work, and I knew that there was no way that I could go back to work that day or the next day. I just didn't know what to do. So, I got ahold of the Command Master Chief. I was pretty sure that she was gay, even though she was a Command Master Chief. So she's playing the political game of, um, hiding it, I guess. Anyways she wanted--she made me lie and say that it was my sister and my sister's baby that died. And, um, I mean, I was able to go on emergency leave or whatever, but I wasn't allowed the same, I don't know, grievance, um, bereavement leave of somebody else who had a close family member die, or the counseling and the support really, from the command. Usually if there was a death or a problem of command, we'd all pull together and raise money and send flowers or anything just for, you know, for everybody, for anything. But, you know, this tragic situation I was going through had to be a secret and a lie. 00:30:38.914 --> 00:31:40.204 A year later. I used Navy Fertility Services to, um--and I got pregnant this time. We already had our daughter, Avery, who was about one years old, and I got pregnant with our second child, Luca, through the Navy. And, I was discharged off of active duty before she was actually born. But, you know, if there's anything about the Navy that I could say good is they take care of, they take care of you. The fertility center never questioned. Um, you know, where's your husband? Why are you infertile? They gave me the medicines, did the procedures, and never asked questions. So, you know, because of the Navy, I've got two beautiful girls. I was able to buy a house. I'm able to use my post-9/11 GI Bill. I'm studying at Cal State San Marcos, about to transfer to UMass Boston. I mean, I just, I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it wasn't for the Navy. 00:31:40.204 --> 00:32:58.000 With that said, I did endure a bunch of bullshit along the way. You know, being a gay service member during Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The last line of (The) Sailor's Creed is, "I'm committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all." And we say The Sailor's Creed every single morning, and we say it before award ceremonies, we say it when we go through promotion boards, and I'm like, who wrote this thing? And fair treatment of all of, of all? Of all, except for gays, except for women, except for minorities, you know, fair treatment of all. It's a bunch of crap. I guess I do hold a lot of resentment, because I was out there defending, uh, defending freedoms that I myself couldn't even take for granted. Like I couldn't even say that I was in a relationship with somebody. I couldn't get spousal marriage privileges to who I really wanted to be married to. Instead, I had to marry a guy who I didn't even really like anymore. But, I was getting extra benefits for that. You know, the system's definitely flawed. 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:43.516 I separated in February, 2012. The military started downsizing. So I finished my reenlistment and I was denied my request to reenlist. So I joined the Navy Reserves, and that's what I'm doing now. Um, I don't like it. I don't want to do it anymore. Um, I'm kind of, I feel like I've finished what I needed to do with the military. I'm just, I'm just ready to move on and do something else. And I am proud of what I did and all I accomplished and what The Navy has done for me. But I think it's time to go. 00:33:43.516 --> 00:35:37.516 Just to answer some of the, uh, the stuff that that's on this outline. As far as communication with family and friends, communication was pretty good. We had email most of the time, unless we had some, some tragic event or we were in harm's way or something, they would shut down email. And the internet, we weren't allowed to use it. But that never lasted longer than a day. So email, we had letters through the postal service, which mail took forever. So basically email. And then towards the end of my last deployment, they started allowing Facebook. They quickly turned it away. I mean turned it off, since people started posting our deployment schedule. But for a while we did have Facebook. We did have internet and the mail. So that's how we did communicating. We also had, uh, sailor phones. It was a dollar a minute, and you would buy a calling card and you can use that. Or if you knew somebody that worked in the communications department, you could use the ship's line. And, there were different codes. To open a line, you can just call out. So, I was able to call my family a lot, and I was constantly on email, so communication was never too big of an issue. Email was basically the reason I got up in the morning. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview May 16, 2013 Description An account of the resource Interview with Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Dinning discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, an how if forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-01 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Gay military personnel -- United States Iraq War, 2003-2011 LGBTQ+ life United States. Navy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices LGBTQIA+ experience Veteran experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kevin Cole OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Cole, Kevin. Interview November 28. 2012 WAHA-03 00:39:51 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Marine Corps ; September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; United States. Marine Corps--Recruiting and enlistment ; USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Kevin Cole ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67729db2171d7e702b46743f60168566.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Kevin Cole, recorded November 28, 2012, for the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project by the California State University San Marcos History Department. Cole begins his interview by discussing his family background as coming from an Irish Catholic immigrant family located in Lynn Massachusetts, and the role his civic-oriented family played in his and his brothers’ enlistment with the United States Marine Corps. Cole also briefly describes his brothers’ experiences in the Marines. Lynn (Mass.) ; Irish Catholic immigrants ; public service ; Marine Corps ; Mayor (Lynn, Mass.) ; fire crash rescue ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) 0 251 College experience, enlistment, and bootcamp Cole recounts his journey to enlistment in the Marine Corps, including dropping out of UMass Amherst and a short stint in community college, before attending bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina. UMass Amherst ; Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD) ; bootcamp 0 400 Becoming a Marine Corps Rifleman Cole explains his decision to enlist with Marine Corps Infantry and describes his occupational specialty (O311), including the on-the-job training that is required to be a Rifleman and the knowledge and skills required. Cole also briefly discusses his parent unit for the entirety of his Marine Corps career, the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, and the two-year cycle that being a Marine entails, including a six-month deployment aboard the USS Tarawa and some of the training and work that entailed. Cole also goes into detail about the experience of visiting foreign cultures and the humanitarian service side of his work. Marine Corps Infantry ; Rifleman ; O311 ; Light Armored Reconnaissance ; Marine Expeditionary Unit ; Delta Company ; 2-year cycle ; USS Tarawa ; Darwin, Australia ; Hawaii ; Thailand ; Guam ; Philippines ; Middle East ; East Timor 0 1050 Bombing of the USS Cole, ship life, downtime Cole recounts being deployed when the USS Cole, and his involvement in security and patrolling the bombing site and cleanup efforts when the USS Tarawa was dispatched to provide support. Cole also remembers his deployments aboard US naval vessels and the difficulties of ship life, and the work of a Rifleman continuing during downtime. USS Cole ; Gulf of Aden ; Indian Ocean ; downtime ; USS Tarawa ; Persian Gulf ; ship life ; Camp Doha 0 1389 September 11, 2001 and reenlistment Cole recounts learning of the 9/11 terrorist attack, which happened in the interim between his first and second deployment, while he was training at “29 Palms” (Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC)) during a combined arms exercise. Cole also remembers breaking up with his girlfriend in the wake of the attack. Cole reminisces about the state of technology at that time and the lack of media available to him about the attack while he was training, and the scarcity of instantaneous communication while deployed. Cole also discusses the clarifying incident that led to him reenlisting with the Marines, and how public sentiment towards members of the armed services changed after the USS Cole bombing and 9/11. 9/11 ; 29 Palms (Calf.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC) ; USS Mount Vernon 0 2110 Second deployment Cole describes his second deployment, this time aboard the USS Mount Vernon, including the places he went and the training he undertook, as well as an attack on the Marines in Kuwait. Cole also recounts refusing orders to go to recruiting school so that he could be deployed alongside his unit in Iraq, January 2003. USS Mount Vernon ; Darwin, Australia ; Camp Doha ; Kuwait ; terrorist attack ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Singapore ; Guam ; Thailand ; East Timor 0 Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.474 --> 00:00:50.871 My name's Kevin Cole, and I was born in Lynn, Massachusetts in 1977 to a Irish Catholic immigrant family. Um, my mother was from London, my dad, from the city of Lynn, which is just north of Boston. And I was the third of three brothers. I come from a family that is very kind of--a family that's very civic-minded or civic-oriented. My dad's side of the family in particular, has a lot of service, um, in the family, a lot of military service, a lot of public servants. Maybe that's the Irish heritage too, I don't know. But a lot of firefighters and cops. And the bulk of my family is still in the Boston area. 00:00:50.871 --> 00:02:06.734 My grandfather was an attorney in the, uh, United States Army. He served from, I wanna say, '40 to '44, somewhere in there. because when he got back from World War II, he served as a politician as well. He was a state senator in Massachusetts. And he was also the mayor of my hometown, which is a pretty big city outside of Boston, just north of Boston. I know he had brothers who were also in the military. I know my uncle Joe, my dad's Uncle Joe was in the Marine Corps for many years. And I had another, um, great uncle who also served in the Marine Corps. He was a colonel in the Marine Corps as well. My dad and his brother didn't serve in the military, but they were public school teachers. They both served as public school educators in the elementary schools. I think between the two of 'em, they had like seventy-five, seventy-four years of teaching service. My dad was a teacher in the Lynn Public School System in Massachusetts for forty years. And my mom and dad had three sons, um, still have three sons and all three served in the military. 00:02:06.734 --> 00:03:08.675 And I can remember as a kid growing up in Massachusetts, knowing my cousin who's the firefighter, and my uncle who's the firefighter, and, you know, other cousins who were cops and served in the military and uncles and aunts who served in the military, it was kind of a no-brainer when I was a little kid. I can remember dressing up as a Army Ranger for Halloween. And it was kind of a theme in my family. All three of the boys always talked about joining the military. My eldest brother Mike graduated from high school and kind of piddled around for a few months, and then enlisted in the Marine Corps. He was a firefighter in the Marine Corps from 1991 to 1996. And he served in a fire crash rescue department in Camp Pendleton. He served on the runway, and he's what most Marines would commonly refer to as a pope. He was a personnel other than grunt. So he wasn't a trigger puller. He actually learned a skill while he was in the Marines. 00:03:08.675 --> 00:03:39.000 It's not to say I didn't learn skills in the infantry or my other brother Pat. We both learned skills, certainly, but they don't translate well to the outside unless you want to become a cop or a SWAT team member or something along those lines. So my eldest brother Mike, served for five years. He did deploy on one occasion. He deployed to Somalia with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, sometime in early 1993 prior to the whole Black Hawk down scenario. That played out later in that year. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:04:11.444 My brother Pat also served in the Marine Corps. He enlisted in 1992, and he served for, I think just a little over four years. He was stationed primarily in Okinawa. I think he was there for three years. And he, as I said before, he was an infantry Marine. He served in the Marine Corps infantry as a reconnaissance Marine. He served, um, he served as a reconnaissance Marine for I want to say almost the entire time he was in. So he was in the infantry the whole time. 00:04:11.444 --> 00:05:29.725 And then finally the third of three sons. I enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1998. I had graduated from high school in 1996 and attended UMass Amherst for a year. And then I dropped out, mostly due to poor grades. I--I think a big part of it was that I didn't have the discipline as a student that I earned over many years in the Marines. So in 1996 when I graduated, um, went straight away to college at UMass, which was just far enough away from home to dorm and just close enough that I could drive back on the weekends if I wanted to. And so I wanted to get out of the hou--out of my parents' house. And so I went to UMass, but it didn't really work out. And so I went to community college in Massachusetts for a year part-time. And it was at that time that I met a couple of Marine Corps recruiters, and I wound up enlisting in the Marines in the summer of '98. I signed my papers on June 30th, '98, and went to bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina, um, MCRD, Parris Island, October 18th of '98. 00:05:29.725 --> 00:06:40.562 So I left for bootcamp. And I can remember going there and because I was an Eagle Scout, kind of a cool thing the military does, if you're an Eagle Scout, they give you a rank. They figure that you have some leadership skills. So they--you get an automatic promotion when you enlist. At least they did it that time. I think they still do it now, but I'm not certain. But regardless, I was made a private first class right when I signed the paperwork. And I went to bootcamp, and I can remember my dad saying to me, "you're the type of kid that you're either gonna wash out or you're gonna graduate from bootcamp, you know, at the top of your class." And so I went to Parris Island in October of '98. I graduated from bootcamp. I graduated a private first class. I was among the leaders of the group. Probably narrowly missed out on a promotion. But I think I gained quite a bit from bootcamp. It was a good experience for me. I got into shape and I certainly started learning discipline. But it was a process over many years that led me to being a disciplined Marine. 00:06:40.562 --> 00:08:06.824 So after bootcamp in Parris Island, um, I went to Camp Geiger, North Carolina for School of Infantry. I had enlisted as an infantry Marine despite the objections of my recruiters, I had scored really well on the ASVAB, the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. It's the entrance exam you have to take to enlist in the military. Actually, to enter the military, you have to take this exam. And I scored really, really highly on it. In fact, I scored so highly that the Marine Corps said, you can take whatever job you want, um, and do whatever you want in the military. But there were certain job fields that encompassed many different jobs. And the one I really wanted to do was what my older brother Michael had done. He had served in a fire crash rescue, and I wanted to do the same thing. I thought being a firefighter was cool. Again, it kind of goes back to that family tradition of civil service. And so that is what I wanted. But the recruiter told me that he couldn't guarantee me a specific job. He could only guarantee me a specific job field. And that field that included fire crash rescue also included all air supporting duties. And some of 'em were just horrific. I remember Air Traffic Controller was the one that jumped out at me, and I thought there's no way I can sit in front of a computer screen for the next four years. 00:08:06.824 --> 00:09:30.595 And so, despite the recruiter's objections, I enlisted infantry knowing that all the fields are so closely related, at least I'm gonna get to do what I want to do. And so I enlisted in the infantry. My military occupational specialty is called O311. It's the Infantry Family, O3, and 11 is the designation for a rifleman. It's the most basic Marine there really is. Of course, I say most basic, and it doesn't mean--it doesn't mean elementary. It doesn't mean not as advanced. It just means that that's kind of the baseline for all Marines. And when you become a Marine Corps Rifleman, you then go on to learn a whole lot more. There's a lot more OJT, on-the-job training that comes with being in the Marine Corps Infantry. Whereas with a lot of specialty jobs like fire crash rescue or air traffic control, whatever, the initial schooling is a lot greater. Of course, there's still a certain degree of on-the-job training, but, with the Marine Corps Infantry, you really never, ever, ever stop learning. I can remember my last year in the Marines, after having served for over eight years in the Marine Corps, serving the infantry the entire time, I was still learning new things. 00:09:30.595 --> 00:10:59.514 So I think people kind of jokingly refer to as Marine Infantrymen as grunts, because that's all they do, and they don't really learn too much. But actually the knowledge that a Marine Corps Infantryman has is significant. And it doesn't come easily. It's not an easy job. So when I say basic, in terms of Marine Corps Rifleman being the basic Marine, they're actually pretty advanced, as far as intelligence, because they have to learn so much. Um, so I went to Camp Geiger. I went to School of Infantry there for the, O311 school, and I can't remember how long it was. I remember it started in January, I wanna say January 25th, 1999, and ended probably sometime in March. I think I checked into my parent unit at Camp Pendleton in the end of March. March 21st, 2000--excuse me, March 21st, 1999 was when I checked in with the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion. Uh, they're stationed in Camp Pendleton. And it's a mechanized infantry unit that provides forward reconnaissance. So it's a, it's an infantry force, but it's also a reconnaissance force. So I checked in there March of '99, and I served with that unit as my parent unit for the entire length of my Marine Corps career, until I was discharged, honorably on March the first, 2007. 00:10:59.514 --> 00:11:15.000 So I served in the same unit for just a little under eight years, plus four or five months of schooling, was my total time in service. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:12:24.215 So after checking in with first LAR (Light Armored Reconnaissance), I learned the pattern of an infantry Marine. Their cycle is such that when you join the infantry or any deploying unit for that matter, you're guaranteed somewhat of a certain cycle that follows a two year--a two year pattern. And so the two years is broken up into four, six-month pieces. The first six of which is a training cycle, which is when I joined my unit. I joined during the training cycle, and then after the six month training cycle within your unit, you then are tasked with a larger joint unit, and that unit becomes the Marine Expeditionary Unit. And so when I was with Delta Company, first, LAR, that unit was then chopped out of our parent unit and placed with a larger battalion landing team. I think it was 3-1 on my first deployment. And we spent six months training as Delta Company. And then our company moved and attached to the battalion landing team, 3rd battalion, 1st Marines, and we trained as a larger combined unit for six months. 00:12:24.215 --> 00:14:14.000 So that's the first year of the cycle. Then the second year of the cycle, the first six months is when you actually deploy. So you spend six months training as a unit. You spend six months training with the collective, a greater unit, and then you spend six months deployed. My first deployment at that time, it was prior to, uh, you know, war. It was in 2000 and September 11th hadn't happened yet. And we deployed on a normal Marine Corps pattern. So we did six months of training, six months of working up training with the larger group, and then six months deployed. My first six months as I said, was on the USS Tarawa, um, which is a pretty large ship. And we went out with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, with the battalion landing team, and we traveled by ship from San Diego to Hawaii. And then from Hawaii, we really went all over the place. Some of the ports we hit were, in Australia, we ported in Darwin, and we had the opportunity to train with the Australian Army there, the 2nd cavalry regiment, which drove--utilized the vehicles similar to the light armor reconnaissance vehicles, the LAVs that we used. Um, but we had an opportunity to train with many units. We did lots of training in Hawaii, we did training in Darwin on a couple of occasions. We trained in Singapore. We--I'm sorry, we didn't train in Singapore, we trained in Thailand. Um, but during the six months at sea on ship, we made several port ports of call. And during those times, some were for work, but some were for liberty. And so we would get free time. Singapore was one example where we got lots of free time. I think we probably spent ten days there, five days on the way out and five days on the way back. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:27.914 And when I say on the way out, I mean to the Middle East. It was certainly a hotspot at the time in the late nineties. So we were--we were always cognizant as Marines that there were places in the world that were danger zones. And in fact, the Middle East is a tax free zone for that purpose. It's considered a hazardous duty. And so servicemen and women who serve in that region don't pay taxes. I don't know why, but regardless, it was more pay for us. So that was nice. But the destination of deployments at that time was to the Middle East. And so we would leave San Diego and go to the Middle East and come back, and we would make that a six-month trip. And in doing so, we would stop at many ports of call. So Thailand was one example. Singapore, Guam, the Philippines, we stopped at a lot of different places. I had the opportunity to go to Seychelles, which was like, amazing. Learned how to dive there. It was pretty cool. Um, but at the same time, there's a lot of work involved as well. We, we went to, whoa! (room light turns off) 00:15:27.914 --> 00:16:12.315 So we were able to go to many different ports of call for training purposes, but also for free time purposes, which was really nice. It was the opportunity to see the world, which was cool. Which it--it wasn't why I joined the military. I think I honestly ultimately joined the Marine Corps out of a sense of civic duty. And it ended up being the Marines out of, I guess, pride. But there were a lot of Marines in my family at the time. Of course my two older brothers were both Marines. Um, they had both just been recently discharged. But I think part of it was a, certainly a sense of civic pride and a duty, kind of a sense of an obligation to give back to the country that's been really good to my family, who, as I said, were immigrants. 00:16:12.315 --> 00:16:50.044 So, going overseas and deploying to a different hostile--different hotspots at the time, they weren't quite hostile until later, was an amazing experience. To visit foreign cultures and do a lot of good--in different ways--providing medical services in East Timor was a great one. We earned a--my unit collectively earned a humanitarian service medal on a couple of occasions for going to East Timor and helping a really severely impoverished country. 00:16:50.044 --> 00:17:30.315 But we also had opportunities to do, you know, help build schools and paint houses and lots of neat stuff like that. The service abroad was not just, go to Iraq, go to Afghanistan and start, you know, being a bully. It was an opportunity to do humanitarian work. In fact a significant portion of my time spent in Iraq in 2003 was actually giving out food, giving out food. Giving out water, medical aid to people. That's certainly some of the things that I remember fondly from my service in Iraq. 00:17:30.315 --> 00:19:06.000 But going overseas on my first deployment on the USS Tarawa, the threat of war is something that's always in the back of a mind, the mind of a Marine, especially one in the infantry who fires a gun almost every day and learns how to employ weapons of warfare. So it was a shock to me, but not a total shock when the USS Cole was bombed. I was deployed, I was onboard the USS Tarawa at the time when the USS Cole was bombed. In fact, I believe we were in the Persian Gulf. And when the Tara--excuse me, when the USS Cole was bombed in the Gulf of Aden--I think it was the Gulf of Aden--we, you know, did 180-degree return and sailed south from the Gulf. And I believe we were on scene the next day. We provided security operations, uh, Zodiac patrols. Zodiacs are the small boats you see in movies. We provided security patrols via those small boats. We also, uh, the ship, as I said, the Tarawa was a big ship, so we provided a base of operations for the investigation team that was there. I believe they were members of the FBI. I'm not certain, um, or might have even been the CIA, I don't know. But there were guys wearing suits and they were investigating the USS Cole bombing. And so we were there onsite for that. And that was really, um, I don't wanna say it was a wake up call because it wasn't a shock, but it was a surprise that a terrorist attack had occurred. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:21:26.324 Regardless, we continued with our deployment after the area had been secured in the USS Cole was then, taken over by another crew and I believe it was floated back to the United States on a huge cargo ship. We continued on with our mission, which as I said, was to go to the Middle East, to do some training in the Middle East to be a part of the Fifth Fleet and to monitor activities in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf area. And so we went to camp Doha in Kuwait and did some training in Kuwait, for, I don't know, probably a month? Two to four weeks. Anyway. And while we were there, we were doing training exercises, and it was always, uh, everything we did was always a preparation for war. It's really--it's a reality. And it's funny because--it's funny--it's strange because as young Marines, you are taught and you perform so much in preparation for war, that when it comes, it's not a surprise, it's not a shock. And for the most part, you're ready for it. So we, we conducted our deployment. We did our training in Camp Doha, and we came back to the States. Um, we spent, I think, six months to the day on board the USS Tarawa. We'd also spent some time ashore of course doing some training and stuff, but for the most part, it was ship life, which it isn't, uh, it isn't very fun. It isn't very fun at all. It seemed like on both my deployments via US Naval vessel, both times in the middle of the Indian Ocean, in the middle of summer, when it's 120 degrees out, the air conditioner breaks in the berthing area, which is the room where, um, which is a quarters on board the ship where Marines and Sailors sleep. It seemed like it didn't fail that the air conditioner would break at some point during the deployment and make the inside of the ship, you know, 150 degrees. And I can remember many, many hot nights sleeping on the flight deck, which is probably frowned upon now, I would imagine. But at the time, it wasn't that big a deal 00:21:26.324 --> 00:23:09.000 Regardless, we came back, I wanna say in February of 2000. I wanna say February of 2000, or, yeah--February of 2000 is when we came back from my first deployment. I believe it was with the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, but it might have been the 11th, because I always get 'em confused. The next time I went out was about a year and a half later, and I went out with the other one. This time it was with Battalion Landing Team 2/1, which is 2nd Marines, excuse me, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines. And with 2/1, we did the same cycle again. So it's the six months of training, six months of training as a combined unit, six months of deployment on ship, and then you get six months of downtime where there are a lot of three and four-day weekends. Sometimes. They're--you're supposed to get a lot of three and four day weekends. It doesn't always work out that way. Um, but after our six months of downtime, which we did get, we went right back into training phase again, and an Infantry Marine trains all the time. You shoot your gun all the time, you clean your gun all the time. We had large vehicles to take care of being in a mechanized in mechanized infantry unit. We had vehicles to clean, to maintain, to test and to push to the limit to ensure that we could do so again in a time of crisis, which of course, proved relevant. Regardless, my second deployment came in 2002 after training some more and training with the Battalion Landing Team again, we then deployed in June of 2002. 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:56.825 Now, in the interim, September 11th had happened, and I remember September 11th, pretty vividly, only because I was--I mean, I'm sure I'd remember it vividly either way, but I remember it, I remember the moment for me when a corporal I was serving with came up to me and told me a plane crashed into the Twin Towers. And then he said, and you know, half an hour ago, another plane crashed into the other tower. And at the time, we were training in 29 Palms. We had been in 29 Palms for several weeks. We were doing a combined arms exercise. So it was a lot of different moving parts, a lot of units. In fact, I think it was one of the biggest combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had seen in a while. And that was saying a lot because it's one of the biggest bases, it's my understanding it's the largest impact area. 00:23:56.825 --> 00:25:22.000 So there's the largest training ground where you can fire weapons. And they often have combined armed exercises that have, you know, five, ten thousand Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, et cetera tied to them. This was one of the larger combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had conducted. And I don't know how many thousands of Marines were there working in cooperation during this training exercise, but it was significant. It was a lot. And when September 11th happened, I remember calling home, and I had a, I had a girlfriend at the time back in Massachusetts where I'm originally from, and I can remember calling her the next day and telling her this, you know, our relationship isn't gonna work anymore. And it was not a hard decision for me at all. I remember she kind of got upset and said, "What are you talking about? You know, you're gonna break up with me over the phone." And I said, "You know what?" I said, "I am serving my country and I can't afford to be tied to anything but the Marine Corps. I'm married to the Marine Corps, essentially." And I can remember it wasn't a tough decision. I just felt it incumbent upon me as a citizen of this country to continue to serve to the best of my ability and to eliminate any distractions. And I don't think it was right then that I had decided to reenlist, but it was a short time later. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:26:40.815 I remember September 11th, you know, it all went down and we continued our training cycle. We were scheduled to be in 29 Palms for several more weeks, and we stayed. So we didn't have access to TV at the time. You know, it was 2001. I remember I was a squad leader of a group of fifteen to twenty men, and I think seven of us had cell phones. Six or seven of us had cell phones, the other guys didn't have cell phones. It's important to consider that as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the conflicts that have arisen in the 2000s, as they have progressed, technology has advanced in such a way that it blows people's minds when I tell them, you know, when I served in Iraq, there were no cell phones. You couldn't just pull a phone out of your pocket in 2003 and call your mom in Boston. It just wasn't possible. Phones weren't capable of doing that. And if they were, I sure didn't have one. And they were probably way too expensive. I remember we had one or two reporters who were tasked to our unit in Iraq, and they had phones that were capable of calling the United States. I got to call home once in 2003. One time I got to call home and talk to my, I think, my brother, for about five minutes. And that was it. That was it. That was it. 00:26:40.815 --> 00:27:08.055 So I think it's important to recognize that technology has advanced in such a way that when I say to people, only seven guys out of, you know, fifteen to twenty had cell phones, they say, what? This was a time, Skype hadn't been invented, MacBooks and Apple was, was still a significant, um, significantly struggling, I should say. Technology wasn't advanced to the point where it is now. 00:27:08.055 --> 00:28:25.765 And so when September 11th happened, I can remember we had one guy in my unit who was from New York State. He was just a little ways away from New York. And I remember he used my phone to call home and make sure his family was okay. And they were, but I can remember the impact of September 11th happening on us as Marines wasn't as significant as it was to the common citizen. Um, I think because of our military training, I think because of our military mindset, because we were in the infantry, it was kind of like, wow. But it wasn't a total shock. It was shocking that somebody was able to attack our country so boldly, so blatantly. But I don't think it really surprised or scared any of us. I think it--in the infantry, we can't be scared because of our training and our training is very important and very thorough, and it prepares us for things like that. Certainly, it doesn't prepare you for a plane flying into a building, but at the same time, the shock factor wasn't as big for us as Marines. 00:28:25.765 --> 00:30:49.375 And so after September 11th happened, we had to continue to train. We were still in 29 Palms. We still had a couple of weeks there. I think we spent probably three more weeks in 29 Palms. So much time in fact, that when we got back to Camp Pendleton, the video footage of the attack on the Twin Towers was gone. They had already removed it from the news reels. So for the most part, all we saw was still images. I saw a few small videos, but I didn't see what everybody else saw on September 11th, because I was training, I was out in the field. I didn't have access to a TV. I didn't have a smartphone where you could watch the news. In fact, in 2003 when we deployed to Iraq, we heard the news probably three times, BBC. But it was one of the biggest aspects of coming home that was fearful to me. People often ask me, were you scared in Iraq? And I said, no, never. I was scared when I got on the plane and was about halfway back to the United States, though, because I didn't know what people were gonna think of me. Technology hadn't caught up to that point to, like it is today where soldiers in the field can actually get in front of a computer and Skype home and read their kid a bedtime story. That is new technology that we weren't privy to. And so when September 11th occurred, and we were in 29 Palms, it was certainly shocking to us. But I think it was later that I made the decision to reenlist, because later in the year, we were coming back from a large exercise in the cold weather training facility up by Bishop California. And when we were on our way back, I can remember somebody had. in my vehicle had wired a little FM radio to our intercom system so we could actually hear the news. So we could actually hear the news. And we actually got to hear a local station come on and say, you know, soldiers in, in their big tanks are gonna be driving down Main Street any minute, go out and, and, and wave to the soldiers. 00:30:49.375 --> 00:32:27.865 And I can remember driving through the small town California and seeing kids running out of a schoolhouse to line the sidewalk and wave and cheer for us. And it was very, um, it was very--it was very special. It was very special to receive that kind of support because I had never seen it before. And when I talked to servicemen and women today about the support we had and the support we didn't have while serving from society, they're kind of shocked when I tell 'em about my first few years in the Marines when Marines were kind of frowned upon. They weren't well liked. They were--Marines were underfoot, there were too many of 'em. Um, I can remember going into a couple of bars, nightclubs in North Carolina when I was in School of Infantry and being told, "Hey, Marines aren't allowed in this bar. You need to go somewhere else." And that was okay. You know, that nowadays you hear that somebody isn't supporting the military and whoa, go to another country. Um, but at that time, it wasn't cool to be a Marine. It wasn't cool to be in the service. And so to see that transition, probably right after the USS Cole was bombed, certainly at September 11th, to see that transition of servicemen are kind of frowned upon to, wow, I want my daughter to date a Marine. Um, and I don't know if it's ever actually gone that far, but certainly better than Marines aren't allowed in this bar. 00:32:27.865 --> 00:34:09.000 And I think it was driving through those small towns and watching kids wave and people come out, I can remember thinking, and maybe even saying over the intercom of my vehicle, "Hey guys, this is why we're here." And I remember thinking in my head, this is why I'm serving my country, to provide freedom, and to provide security for our people. And to see that threatened was--it was horrifying. But as I said, it wasn't shocking. I think the shock value of it was lessened on us as Marines. But regardless, to see an outpouring of public support for the military and to see the public really at that time transitioned from a, eh, I don't know how I feel about the military to wow, I love our military. It was definitely special. And at some point in there, I decided to reenlist. Each of my older brothers served one enlistment. My older brother Mike served for five years. My brother Pat served a little over four, but I made a decision to reenlist partly based upon September 11th, partly based upon the type of support we got as servicemen and women from the American public. But I think a big part of it too, was, again, it kind of fell back to this civic duty, this sense of obligation I felt, that was kind of inborn in me as a kid. I felt that my duty was not yet done. 00:34:09.000 --> 00:35:10.656 And further, when we got back from 29 Palms, when we got back from--when we got back from, uh, the training exercise in the cold weather warfare, I can remember I was pretty close to getting out of the Marines at that time. I had a few months left in the Marine Corps in my first enlistment. And I remember one of my commanders saying, we're gonna need volunteers to go back out on a second deployment because we're short. And me and probably three or four other guys--me and probably three or four other guys volunteered to go back out with Delta Company first LAR again. And that was when we deployed on the (USS) Mount Vernon, in 2002. We did another six month deployment. We did another six months training, six months of training with the combined group, and then a six month deployment and returned home on December 15th, 2002. 00:35:10.656 --> 00:36:33.934 Now, that deployment was a little bit different than the first. I can recall that somebody was retiring. I believe it was the admiral, or someone high ranking was retiring. And so he wanted to go to some of the nice places on our deployment. That was the rumor. I don't know if it was true. But regardless, we seemed to be going to a lot of nice ports of call. We went to Darwin, we went to Singapore, we went to Guam, we went to Thailand. We went to Thailand, we went to East Timor, which was kind of typical in the training cycle at that time, doing some humanitarian efforts there. We also went to, I believe we went to Seychelles on that deployment. So we hit a lot of cool, cool places to go, a lot of good places to go and enjoy ourselves, to, you know, go on the beach to surf, to dive. But we also did some significant training. And it was there in Camp Doha when we were out in an impact area training, we received word that one of the units at assigned to the Battalion Landing Team had been attacked in Kuwait. And I don't remember if one Marine was killed and one Marine was wounded, or if two Marines were killed. I think it was two Marines were killed. And it was a terrorist attack. It was kind of this truck full of guys drove by and fired into a group of Marines who were doing some training, and one or two were killed. 00:36:33.934 --> 00:38:16.485 And that was kind of shocking because we were a forward force at the time. We were, you know, not out there in a peaceful manner. We were out there doing training, firing guns, having a live fire exercise in Kuwait, in Northern Kuwait. And we were attacked. And I remember that really kind of set the tone. When we were on our way back, we already knew that something was going down soon. And I remember I had extended my contract by four or five months to deploy on the second occasion. And when we got back from deployment, I remember I was told--uh, I reenlisted during deployment. I remember I was told, we're gonna need you, Sergeant Cole to go to recruiting school. And I can remember saying, no, I'm not going to recruiting school. You're crazy. My unit's getting ready to go overseas again. And we returned on December 15th, and between December 15th and I think January 6th, I refused orders to go to recruiting school, got like a reprimand. Um, mainly for the fact that the sergeant who was gonna replace me--I didn't trust him with my Marines. Period. I didn't trust him with my Marines. And I felt that if somebody was gonna continue to lead my platoon, it should be me and not somebody they don't know. So for those reasons, I denied my orders and was reprimanded and deployed to Iraq. 00:38:16.485 --> 00:39:31.945 So we deployed to Iraq in January, 2003. We had just come back from deployment on a--on the USS Mount Vernon. And a month later we were on a plane from March Air (Reserve) Base flying back to Iraq. We landed in Kuwait in, I don't know, mid-January 2003. And at that point, we were all aware that danger was imminent. Um, period. We knew what we were there to do. But in the back of our minds, we were all told, you know, this is a military engagement certainly, but it is also a significant humanitarian effort. We're going to relieve people who are being oppressed. And we were given humanitarian food. We were given extra water, extra food that we could give out. All of our Navy Corpsmen were instructed to give out medical aid as necessary and as able, um, without it being detrimental to the Marines they were serving with. And so we knew that was definitely gonna be a part of our mission. 00:39:31.945 --> 00:39:51.445 So when we arrived in Kuwait, again, we went right back into training and preparing. We had many different missions that we were, um, that we were tasked with. I'll get to that another time 'cause I gotta go. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cole, Kevin. Interview November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-03 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Aguilar OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Aguilar, John. Interview May 21, 2013 WAHA-02 00:27:16 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm Afghan War, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Twentynine Palms (Calif.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) ; Veterans--Health aspects--United States ; Veterans' spouses ; Veterans--United States John Aguilar AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/072f64d928766dbd5dfe4c28078244fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction Oral history interview of John Aguilar, Jr., May 21, 2013. Aguilar begins the interview by listing his dates of service and his place of service, at Camp Pendleton, California, with the HQ Support Battalion. California State University San Marcos ; Digital History ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; HQ Support Battalion ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 0 79 Enlistment and training Aguilar discusses his motivations for enlistment and his experiences at basic training and at 29 Palms, California for follow-on training as a computer systems expert. basic training ; enlistment ; follow-on training ; 29 Palms (Calif.) 0 243 Death at 29 Palms ; Afghan War Aguilar recounts the death of a sergeant during his training at 29 Palms and how it impacted him. He also recounts around the same time the beginning of the Afghan War, and seeing the attitudes and perspectives of deployed and stateside Marines change as the war progressed. Aguilar also describes the effects on service members that he saw from their deployments, and how they changed upon returning to the United States. 29 Palms (Calif.) ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; post-traumatic stress 0 656 Laptops and contractors Aguilar describes his work as IT support, and stress-testing laptops for combat use. Aguilar recalls the military choosing to contract with a company that offered an inferior laptop system over one that he felt was a superior machine for combat use. military contractors ; IT support 0 788 Impacts of service on military members and military families Aguilar circles back to his experiences witnessing the effects of combat service on veterans and recounts a story of a neighbor who suffered a brain injury on active duty that led to divorce. head trauma ; post-traumatic stress ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 0 970 Military impact on Aguilar ; Public perception of military service Aguilar speaks to the impact his service had on him and the way it has improved his circumstances. He also speaks to public perceptions of veterans and the glorification of service in our society. 0 1165 Media manipulation, racism and prejudice Aguilar offers his perspective on lessons to take away from the Afghan and Iraq wars, including governmental and media manipulation. He also talks about anti-Arab racism and prejudice against veterans, and offers his thoughts on the human capacity for division. Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; racism ; prejudice 0 1561 Honorable discharge from the Marine Corps Aguilar briefly speaks to his honorable discharge and rank reduction, and misdemeanor conviction for false official statement. honorable discharge ; rank reduction 0 John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.865 --> 00:01:19.000 My name is John Aguilar, Jr. I am a former Marine, once a Marine, always a Marine. Former active duty. I am here at ca--at Cal State San Marcos. And I'm doing--participating in this WAHA project. War At Home and Abroad. And I'm giving my experience for Digital History. Um, right now I'm looking at a written account that I made here, because I don't have any questions or prompts to work with. But I served from March of 2001 to April of 2005. I enlisted in the Bronx, New York, and I served mostly here at Camp Pendleton. I was with the HQ Support Battalion of the parent unit for Camp Pendleton. So my unit wasn't deployable. When the war actually kicked off, we would just send someone out six months at a time and we would rotate that way. I never went out. My turn just never came up. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Well, when I, uh, when I first enlisted, I was married with two children. I had two daughters and married my high school sweetheart. And we were just in a position where we didn't have any resources, aside from public assistance, and I didn't want to rely on that. I did face opposition. I had people telling me, you know, that I couldn't do anything else. That I had to work and work dead end--two dead end jobs, and get food stamps. And that was my option. I didn't like hearing that, and I felt that joining the military would be a good way to acquire skills and get the GI Bill so that I could actually do something with my life. So I chose the Marine Corps because I felt that it was the best of all the branches. They expect more of their members. And I didn't feel like I wanted to sell myself short. So I enlisted. I just went in one day, let everybody know. You know, I had church members telling me I was doing the wrong thing. I had my family, uh, was afraid that I wouldn't actually do it. I remember one day I came home, my wife told me that people were actually asking her if I had given up this "Marine thing." So when I heard that, if there were any doubts left in me, that drove them out. So I went through with it. I spent four months there. So I had, uh, some stress fractures in my legs. So I had to spend a month recuperating. Finished the third phase of training, which involved a lot of pain because I wasn't used to training after a month in rehab. I almost gave up just because it--it just hurt that much that I wanted to just throw the towel in, but I didn't. So anyway, I went on to become a co--a small computer systems expert. Um, I was in 29 Palms for about two or three months. And after a second trip over there for a couple months, tell you is one place I don't want to be. 29 Palms is not a nice place. The people there are not very friendly towards Marines. It's basically a desert and there's not much to look forward to there. I've heard of some people who like living there but my experience there has been horrible. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:05:05.000 I actually lost a sergeant there. I watched him, literally watched him die on his feet. He--and it traumatized me. It was the first time I saw anyone die. You know, coming from the South Bronx, it's like, I'd never witnessed that before. And, um, no, I didn't think he had passed. His body was moving. What I didn't realize was that it was just the air coming out of his body. It made it look like he was trying to talk but he was dead before he even hit the floor. And, a couple, you know, his best friend was there, another sergeant, and a staff sergeant. And they tried to revive him, but, you know, they couldn't. There was no possibility. I won't say his name, just in case his family ever sees this, I wouldn't want to bring it back to their memory. 00:05:05.000 --> 00:06:59.000 So, uh, it recently--I mean like relatively a short time after that, I--we were running when it happened. So after that, when people would say things like, you know, we're gonna run until we die, and things like that, I would freak out. I would just act like I felt like they really were gonna run until they died because that's what happened. The sergeant was running and he died. And after that, I remember one time we were watching videos--because the next day the sergeant had passed away--the very next day the war kicked off in Afghanistan. And, uh, people were sending YouTube videos of bodies, like people getting shot. And this one Arabic guy had gotten shot in this one video, and the air was coming out of his body. He was just like that sergeant, just, it looked like he's alive, but he's not. It's just the air coming out. And one of the marines with me making com--was still making comments. "Oh, yeah, look at him. He's still alive. He's still alive." You know, like if it was so cool that this guy got shot and was dying on camera, and like, I snapped at him and I'm like, "No, he's already dead! Obviously you've never seen a dead body." And, I let him know that the guy was already dead and it was the air coming out of his body. And just, I think it drove home for the people that were there that they didn't know what they were looking at. You know, it wasn't a movie, it wasn't fake. It was real. And none of us in that room had that experience of going to combat and of killing someone. 00:06:59.000 --> 00:08:38.534 One of the things that I did see recently was a presentation that Dr. (Ibrahim) Al-Marashi had on the War Against Terror. And he--one of the clips he shows was a video of a Marine being interviewed by a journalist saying that he and his friends shot someone and got a rush out of killing them, and that they wanted to do it again. And I noticed that there was no counterview presented. From some of my friends that went over there. I think that the initial attitude was one of conquest and excitement. And I think that changed though. I think it needs to be said that that changed. When people started dying, when Marines and other service members started seeing their friends blown up--for those of us who didn't deploy, news coming back of people that we worked with dying, IEDs exploding and killing people that we worked with. One--there's another sergeant--the one that I saw die? He didn't get to see his, I believe it was his daughter. He was--they were expecting a daughter, so he didn't get to see her. I mean, he died in relatively peaceful terms, you know. But another sergeant that I worked with, he was hit by an IED and he was expecting a child as well. 00:08:38.534 --> 00:10:56.715 So things like that, that we have to deal with at home, knowing that--two months ago I was working with this person and whether or not I got along with him is irrelevant. Because now he's dead. You know, whatever I felt about him doesn't matter. He has a wife that was waiting for him. He has a child that was waiting for him. People that did know him and love him were waiting for him to come back. And that would never happen, you know? So I think it needs to be said that while initially people were inappropriately excited to go to war, the reality of it eventually sank in. And that changed. The attitude totally changed. I'm sure there are those people who I were ignorant and felt like it would be exciting to go, you know, now ten years later. But the people that actually went through it, they were changed. They would, they came back differently. They, a lot of them couldn't walk by buildings. They walk around staring at windows because they're so used to having to watch out with snipers. I remember my car, the trunk, if I remotely open my trunk, a Marine happens to be walking by--you know, I'm approaching my car, I open my trunk, and they're jumping because they think something's about to happen. They're expecting an explosion or something. And I remember the first few times that I wasn't expecting that. And it was totally innocent. And I saw the reactions on their faces. So it made me realize that it had changed. The way people talked about it after a couple of years, it just, it was not that exciting, pumped up, I'm gonna go out and kill people, kind of thing. So, I just want that to be made clear, that with experience that attitude for the most part, changes. I'm sure there are exceptions. 00:10:56.715 --> 00:13:08.774 To talk about my job in the Marine Corps as a computer expert, I basically was the IT guy. Um, I had the opportunity to test one of the laptop suites that was sent out to the desert. These laptops were made, uh, just like typical laptops. I think they were just little heavier. And, it was competing with another system that would've definitely been a much better computer system for a combat zone. And I don't know who the companies that were involved, but I guess the laptop system had been purchased even though the other system was a lot better, and was suited for a combat zone. You were able to switch out parts very easily. And I really don't know why the military decided to go with that laptop system. We had to--a friend, me and another Marine--we had to work on it and debug it, come up with ways to solve the problems that were coming up in the software. We probably spent a, a week doing that. And the whole time we're sitting there just asking ourselves why would the Marine Corps want to give Marines this system? It was just full of problems. So, that's just a commentary on how we're not sending our service members out there with the best that's available. I know that whole, um, there was that whole argument going on about armor, and I can tell you firsthand, the software they were supposed to use was not the best that was available, for better or for worse. Um, I think that politics were involved and contractors were just out there to make money. I don't think they really cared about providing the best for our people. 00:13:08.774 --> 00:15:40.225 Um, and I've heard a lot of talk about the way people in the Middle East were living. And I wasn't there myself so can't really say if our presence there really made a difference or not. Because I haven't seen it firsthand. So I just won't comment on that because I really--I really don't know anything that hasn't been said in the news. I have my own opinions. I think, uh, I think that while Saddam Hussein probably did need to get deposed, I don't know if our presence there for so long was really necessary. So I just want my--in my view, I think that we really need to just scale down our presence there. A lot of people have died. A lot of people coming back injured, you know, irrevocably changed for the rest of their lives. I had a neighbor who was, uh, who was a reservist in the army, and he was unemployed at the time. He and his wife had three children. And he gets called up to go to, I believe to Afghanistan, maybe Iraq. And when he comes back, he had a brain injury. And it was to the extent that he had a British accent, even though he was American. So he comes back with this accent. His wife said that he wasn't the same, excuse me, he wasn't the same person. His personality had changed. And I remember they were my upstairs neighbor. So when I moved out of that apartment that same night, she was arguing with her husband over the phone to the extent that someone had called the police. The police thought he was in there, that they were fighting. I had to let them know, no, that's not the case. They're arguing on the phone because their marriage had devolved to the point that she wanted a divorce. And that that happened maybe in about a three to four month period after him returning. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that the war is creating. 00:15:40.225 --> 00:16:10.000 You have people who are physically maimed and injured. Marriages are falling apart, people are dying. It just--I don't think that it should be happening. You know, I think we did what we needed to do, and the governments there need to take control of the situation. And that's really how I feel about it. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:17:37.025 As far as my service in the military, I'm very proud of what I accomplished, and I was able to turn my life around. Here I am working on my master's degree, and my children have someone to look up to. And before I enlisted, I just didn't have that. I didn't have the resources that I needed to really make something of myself. But I think that people need to keep in mind that earning the title of a Marine or becoming a Soldier or a sailor or an Airman, there's still, they are still people. And I think like this glorification, hero worship, I really think it needs to get toned down because a lot of the time people are enlisting and they're not knowing what it is they're getting into, you know? You're not treated the same as most people are, in the military, and you are held to higher standards. And sometimes I think that the standards you're being held to can be unreasonable. And I think it causes people to stress out. It causes people to change and not always for the better. 00:17:37.025 --> 00:19:25.815 I think that when the public engages service members, they need to do it from a perspective of how this is a person who is maybe achieving things, and accomplishing things, and simply just getting things done because they have to, It is not that somebody goes into the service knowing what's expected of them. Because you think you know, but you don't. You don't know until you get there. I don't--I think that military members need to also keep in mind that they volunteered for service. And when they expect other people to fawn over them and tend to their every need, it's not a reasonable expectation. And I see that a lot. And I remember when I was there mentally, where I thought that I should be held in a higher regard because of my service. And the fact of the matter is: I volunteered. You know, I wasn't forced to do it. I didn't have to. It wasn't compulsory service where it's so terrible that I made it through against my will. It's not how it, how it is, you know? There were people who did more than what I did. There were people who did less than what I did. And that's in any endeavor that we take upon ourselves. I think, so I guess what I'm trying to say is I think we all need to be grounded in reality. 00:19:25.815 --> 00:21:15.365 I think that when people think about this war in the future, when we look back, I think we really need to question what's being fed to us. The government really took control of the media and censored what was sent back. Now we know we were lied to about multiple issues. And I think that's part of the problem, is that people who initially went over there thought that they were doing something really great and honorable, and that may not be the case. We can talk about spreading democracy what we want, but the people there may not have wanted that. If anything we could've tried politically to change the government. And without getting into a convoluted discussion, you know, it's just too complex to boil down to a few words, but I think we just really need to question our government's motives and not make assumptions. And especially the way people talk about Arab Americans or Arabs in general. This is supposed to be the melting pot. And our military is made up of many ethnicities and religions, and people just throw around these slurs and degrade other people like it's fine. Like it's acceptable. And that shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Racism and prejudice should not be viewed in that light. 00:21:15.365 --> 00:22:33.000 I think as a Marine, I think that I have a duty to speak out against that kind of thing. I think that while I will defend my fellow servicemen from people who make those assumptions and try to degrade them, at the same time, I'm having to defend people who are being subjected to that by the military. Like when a service member makes comments about Arabs, I will defend the Arab community because it's the right thing to do. Not every single person from the Middle East, whether they live there or descended from their, has to anything to do with terrorism. And at the same time, you know, not every service member is a gung-ho, trigger-happy racist. Both sides of the equation are complex, and individuals all have their own views. And I think we need to remember that. I think ultimately what I, what my message would be is that we all need to remember that we're all people. 00:22:33.000 --> 00:23:46.365 The Marine Corps, the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Arabs in the countries that we have invaded, that we have conducted airstrikes, like in Libya, the governments, the--even the rebels, they're all people. You know, some people who are fighting, like American contractors down there, uh, rebels even, like I heard one story about a rebel who was captured and he said the only reason he was fighting was for a paycheck. It's like, they're not even ideologically inclined. They're just there to make a paycheck to feed their families. And a lot of our military members join to get a paycheck. So it goes beyond politics. It goes beyond politics. And I just really feel like we need to keep that in perspective. 00:23:46.365 --> 00:24:24.000 Um, so I hope I didn't sound too high-handed and I hope I didn't come across like I'm rambling. But we just need to keep in mind that people are people and wars are politics. Politicians decide that we go to war, not generals. And the people on the ground are not always there because they want to be there. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:26:01.233 And the military changed my life for the better, and not everyone is that lucky. And I met some great people who we will have lifelong friendships. And I met people who I don't ever want to hear from again, you know, and that's just keeping with my point that not everyone can be put into one framework. Ultimately we're all people, we're all individuals, we're all a composite of our experiences and education and instruction, you know? So I would just like for our service members who might be watching this, people who are thinking of joining, to keep in mind that the people that you might be down range from shooting at, getting shot at by--and I'm not saying don't defend yourself--I'm just saying they may not believe what you're being told that they believe. And you probably don't believe what they are being told you believe. I think we just need to keep that in perspective. There are many layers to any situation and war is not exempt from that. So I guess that's all I really have to say. Thanks. (video cuts and is turned back on) 00:26:01.233 --> 00:27:17.233 Okay. I'm just gonna give my rank here. I was discharged in April of 2005 as a private. I got an honorable discharge, even though my rank was reduced, I had promoted up to Lance Corporal and a legal investigation ensued, which took two years, so I couldn't get promoted to corporal. And went to the hearing and it lasted a few days, maybe a week. And the conviction came back with a misdemeanor, false official statement. Now I didn't make a written statement and I didn't make a verbal statement. The--that's just what came out of the hearing after all the evidence was heard. So even though I was reduced in rank, I still got my honorable discharge. And I discharged maybe a week after the--I served a sentence of, I believe, fifteen days or twenty days. And I discharged a week after that. So I'm Private John Aguilar, Jr. Thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. 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Interview May 21, 2013 Description An account of the resource John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-02 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment Veterans -- Health aspects -- United States Veterans -- United States Veterans' spouses Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Aguilar, Jr. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Latine experience Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chamorro language;imperialism;language revitalization OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. SC027-089 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture ; Chamorro history ; language revitalization ; Spanish colonization ; Japanese colonization ; United States/American colonization ; grandparents ; education Chamorro language ; imperialism ; language revitalization Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Jennifer Ho Moving image LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f31815d4ea546e978b499adb5f085e06.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua, July 12th 2024, by Jennifer Ho, Communities and Cultures Archivist, university Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 148 Constantly Moving Miget discusses how his early childhood was filled with moving form place to place following his father's career for the US military and US State Department. Swaziland ; Guam ; United States ; Military ; Moving 0 530 Racism in Central California Miget talks about growing up in Atasacdero, CA and the racism that he encountered while going to highschool. Racism ; Chamorro ; white ; Latino ; Atascadero--Calif. 0 906 Moving to Guam Miget talks about how it was moving to Guam to be with his grandparents after highschool. Guam ; University of Guam ; College ; education 0 1332 Connecting with His Grandmother and Chamorro Culture Miget talks about how his attitude towards learning the Chamorro language changed when he took the time to sti down with his Grandmother and practice. Language revitalization ; Chamorro culture ; Imperialism ; US policy 0 1846 Connecting with His Grandfather Miget talks about how his Grandfather was always hesitant to speak Chamorro with him and would not teach Miget his blacksmithing. Miget's Grandfather's views began to shift as he saw how dedicated to the Chamorro language and culture Miget was becoming. Trauma ; Japanese occupation ; WWII ; US occupation ; Imperialism 0 2316 Chamorro Language Classes Miget discusses how he started teaching Chamorro Language lessons in smoothie shops and coffee shops. Language revitalization ; Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture 0 2739 Creating a Chamorro Immersion Program with June and Clarissa Miget talks about how some of his students, June Pangolin and Clarissa Mendiola, approached him with the idea of creating a Chamorro immersion program. Prugraman Sinipok ; Chamorro language ; Language revitalization ; Language immersion 0 3235 Escaping the States Miget talks about how he first moved to Guam to escape the racism and feelings of being lost or not fitting in in the United States. Racism ; Cultural identity ; Education ; California 0 3666 Cultural Influences Miget talks about how Johnny Sablan, a Chamorro musician and song writer, serves as an inspiration to him to continue his language revitalization journey. Johnny Sablan ; Chamorro music ; Chamorro culture 0 4001 What is Your Vision of the Future for Chamorro Language? Miget talks about his children and the hopes and dreams he has for Chamorro culture and language in the future. Children ; Cultural identity ; Chamorro culture ; Language revitaliztion 0 Oral history Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.155 --> 00:00:14.585 Okay, 00:00:14.585 --> 00:00:19.195 I'm, a little bit under the weather, but, feeling very good otherwise. 00:00:19.195 --> 00:00:30.585 Okay, good. Thanks for being here with me. I appreciate it. Okay, so I would like to start with your childhood. Tell me when and where you were born, and I'd love to hear about the people who raised you. 00:00:30.585 --> 00:02:28.425 Oh, yes. So I was born in the year 1980 on the island of Guam. My dad, his name's Robert Bevacqua. He, has his roots in New York, Italian American, with some German ancestry, the Bevacqua family. His father, participated in the liberation of Europe in World War II and was a career US, Air Force officer, and then retired to Hawaii after, the war. And then, so my dad spent his formative years growing up in Hawaii. My mother, was the daughter of, Joaquin Flores. My mother, Rita Luhan--Flores Luhan was the daughter of Joaquin Flores Luhan and Elizabeth de León Flores Luhan. And my great--my grandfather on my mother's side was a master blacksmith. He was a cultural, master in Guam, the last traditional, cultural, master of that type, meaning that, there used to be many blacksmiths on Guam, especially during the Spanish period in which most people survived, by living off the land, farming and so on. But after World War II and dramatic changes to life, nearly all of them did not pass on the knowledge to their children, their grandchildren, or take any apprentices. And so my grandfather was basically the youngest blacksmith before the war. He--when the Japanese invaded Guam in 1941, he was 21 years old, and he had learned blacksmithing from the age of nine from his father. And then he also learned how to weld, as a machinist from the US Navy. And so, so my mother, you know, so my, my mother's family had roots in Guam. My mother and father met in Hawaii, and, they stayed together for a number of years. They had, three children together, and then they got divorced. 00:02:28.425 --> 00:05:20.206 And so my upbringing was a lot of moving back and forth between California and Guam, sort of moving back and forth between families. And then the most fascinating phase of it was a year and a half, a two year stint, in which my dad worked for the US State Department in a US farming aid program in the 1980s. And so we did live, for less than two years, in the country of, in the southern African country of Swaziland. So I was just like five years old at that time, or a little--five or six years old. And so growing up, I don't feel like I had a particularly strong sense of my identity as a person from Guam, as a Chamorro person. Part of it was just moving around from different places. And then also part of it too was that my mother's generation and then my generation, we represented in many ways, sort of the impacts of Americanization policies, kind of put out there by the US Navy, which had taken Guam in 1898 via the Spanish American War. And so Chamorro's after World War II had kind of put into hyperdrive this push to Americanize themselves. To stop speaking their language, to sell their land, to jump into sort of the wage economy, to leave the island behind and move to the states where they could, you know, finally, touch what they could only see in JC Penny catalogs that came to the island. When I was growing up on Guam it was fascinating because the television--the ads and the shows that were shown on television were recorded on cassette tapes on the west Coast of the United States, and then they were mailed every single day to Guam. So you watched shows like Dallas or LA Law two weeks after they initially premiered in California and in the United States. And so--and then eventually this was kind of brought down to just one week, and then now you can kind of watch them because of, you know, satellite technology. You can watch them the day of and so on. But that feeling of growing up and like constantly being fed these ideas of the United States, like, especially through media, but then kind of always never being able to realize it or find it on the island. It definitely did--It definitely did a number on me, and I think a lot of others in my generation where there was this feeling like, you need to leave the island. You need to kind of forget being a Chamorro, forget Guam, you know, head out to the States. 00:05:20.206 --> 00:08:40.024 Like a case in point for that is growing up, there was always ads for a place called Raging Waters (water park in LA). And kids, my generation, like desperately wanted to go to Raging Waters. And it was ridiculous because Guam has amazing beaches and it has waterparks and water slides already. Why would there be this cachet about Raging Waters? But it is sort of this, this kind of, this lure of--this colonial lure. The United States kind of is up here, and then we're constantly striving to kind of reach it. And in--and what happens as a result is that we kind of devalue, we set aside, we throw away the things that we, the things that we have. And so when I was growing up, I didn't care much about being Chamorro. In fact, I was growing up in the 1980s at a time where what we refer to today as the Chamorro renaissance, which is kind of like the cultural awakening. The Chamorro empowerment movement, which, which, in the seventies was initially called like the Brown Power Movement after sort of similar movements in the United States. It was starting to take root, but it hadn't really reached the wider population. And so even, the word that we used to refer to ourselves was in flux. So the word that we had used, that we used for ourselves for hundreds of years, perhaps thousands of years, of course, Chamorro. But after the United States had defeated the Japanese and returned, there was this feeling that we needed to show loyalty to the United States, that a new era had begun. And so part of this came then that the leaders of the Chamorro people actually proposed renaming themselves. And so instead of Chamorro, which was difficult for Americans to comprehend, difficult for them to pronounce, which could confuse them, instead what they did is they actually had a poll--polls in the late 1940s in which they put it to villages to ask them, which of these options do you approve? And there was options like Guamerican Guamanian, Guamian, Guamese. And so one of the highest vote getters was Guamerican. But the US Navy at that time informed Chamorro leaders that you are not to call yourselves Guamericans, 'cause you're not Americans. And so the one of the--the next highest--then because of sort of the war and sort of ill feelings towards the Japanese, which had occupied the island brutally for 32 months, Guamese was absolutely out. So Guamanian is what stuck. And so for two generations, Chamorros referred to themselves in this era of Americanization, this blitz of Americanization. They referred to themselves as Guamanians. So when I was growing up, there was--the conversation was starting about whether we should keep calling ourselves Guamanians or whether we should go back to calling ourselves Chamorro. And so it was a very confusing time. 00:08:40.024 --> 00:12:20.625 But I wasn't as a young person, and even into my teens, I wasn't somebody who cared a lot about these issues because, I didn't have a strong sense of my own identity. My grandfather, I mentioned, had been a cultural master. He had trained a number of apprentices. But the fact that his grandchildren couldn't speak Chamorro or the fact that he saw us as being too Americanized and too Westernized meant that he wouldn't teach us. My grandmother always teased him saying well, (speaking in Chamorro) who raised them? We raised them. We raised them because we wanted Americans. And now we can't be angry at them. We wanted Americans, we got Americans. And now you complain when they don't--when they only wanna look out for themselves. So my grandparents were always a balance on each other. My grandfather sort of--but eventually I did develop sort of a strong connection to my cultural identity. But it happened in a number of sort of convoluted ways. And a lot of it actually happened out here in San-- not in San Diego, but here in California when I was away from the islands that, my mother, had married our dad and then divorced. She had moved us back to Guam to live with her parents. We were there for a few years. And then she had met somebody else when we were visiting her sister in California, in the Central Coast near Pismo Beach, Arroyo Grande. And so she just on a whim, because she had fallen in love, decided to move us all out there. Which was very jarring and shocking because for me, I wasn't, I didn't like love Guam. I wasn't gonna like die for Guam. But I also--California was not my home. And so when we came out to California, I liked it in some ways. I didn't like it in other ways. And this especially became, so as I moved into high school years, and I ended up in a school in a city, it's called Atascadero, which has a, like a mental, State hospital, and then it has an In-N-Out burger. And so it's--it was a very weird place for me because my mother had married a man who I had issues with at that time because they loved each other, but they also basically reinvented the Brady Bunch with us. My mom had three kids. Charles, my new stepdad had three kids, and we all lived in a three bedroom house. And then they had one more kid together. And so it was tough because, you know, for me, you know, the more that I was out in the States and as I was getting older, like I felt like I didn't belong in the States. And a lot of this I didn't share with my family because I didn't know who to talk to about this sort of thing. There was no other people from Guam in the area, just my mom, my siblings, and then my aunt who lived 40 miles south. But I would go to my--I would go to school, like the high school there, and I would get like hazed and harassed by like the white kids with the giant belt buckles and the big cowboy hats, because they saw me as being some sort of like weird Latino kid. But then I would also get harassed by Latino kids, 'cause they saw me as being like a fake Hispanic kid who wasn't like cholo enough, who wasn't--who was like fronting that I was white or--and so I was like-- it was--I was getting harassed and I was getting into fights, like on both sides. And it like really frustrated and angered me. 00:12:20.625 --> 00:15:16.945 And it eventually--like left where I like ran away from home. For a while and went to go stay with friends. And my mom, who, you know, who at that time I was very, I was not a good son. I was a very unpleasant sort of like 16-year-old to her. She was very patient. She was very loving. I don't think that she could really understand what I was feeling 'cause I think, you know, for her it's just, she's okay being out here in California. And I didn't nearly know how to talk about what I was feeling. I had no idea. But if something happened in my life though, that changed everything, was that once I-I decided to finish high school early. So I tested out of high school and then, because I hated going to high school. I went to like five different high schools in like a semester because I had trouble acclimating. I even went to like a, (coughs) excuse me--like a high school for juvenile delinquents because of my behavioral problems at that time. And so I decided to take the test in which you can just do your high school proficiency. So then I could just start going to college and then figure out what I wanted to do. And at that time, I was kinda lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but my, my grandparents who were in Guam, my mom's parents, you know, they were hearing about all the stuff I was going through. They had come out at one point because my grandfather had heart surgery at Stanford. And so they, they basically--my grandmother told me, just come stay with us. Just come home and stay with us. You can stay here. We have a car you can use. Just come home and stay with us. And so I just decided to. And it was--it took a few years, but eventually this is--this was a choice that completely changed my life because I wasn't --it--the homecoming wasn't like that I suddenly like got on my knees and I said, I am a Chamorro. I love my culture, I love my identity, I'm proud. But I came home and I found that I liked, even though I was, you know, I'm half Chamorro and I, you know, I'm a little bit lighter skinned than a lot of Chamorros and I can't speak Chamorro. I found that I was more comfortable and Guam than being out here. I found I liked that my family was out there, so I had roots. So if I felt like I didn't have a place to go, I still had a family. If I didn't know where I belonged, I had my grandparents and I could always kind of turn to them as like a, so even if I felt lost, I could just go hang out and, you know, just take my grandparents for a drive and take them to a funeral and then go eat lunch, you know, at a restaurant with them and just hang out with them. And then I felt like, like home. 00:15:16.945 --> 00:18:32.765 And so all of these experiences though, connecting with my grandparents really like, changed my perspective. Where I started to get more interested first in kind of the history of our people a little bit in the culture. I started to, at first when I started going to the University of Guam, I just wanted to like, take class in like English literature, I wanted to go into an MFA program for art. But towards the end of my undergrad, I started to take classes in like Guam history and Micronesian history, Pacific Island history. 'cause I realized like I wanna know more about this place that we come from. And so, like, my whole life changed when, in my last year at the University of Guam, I had to pick my foreign language requirement. And I had already taken one semester of Spanish at a community college here in California. And so I was trying to decide should I take another language or should I just take Spanish? And I was gonna take Spanish. I signed up for Spanish. And then when I got in there, it was so hard, like I realized that it had been like three years since I had taken Spanish and I had forgotten all the Spanish because the teacher just put on a telenovela and I had no idea what anybody was saying. And so I was at the breakfast table with my grandparents and my mom's oldest sister, my Auntie Eleanor. And then I was asking them, I was like, man, what language should I take? There's always this pressure to take Japanese 'cause that's for the longest time, that's the biggest bulk of the tourists to Guam, Japanese. There's all these language classes there. And so I was trying to figure out--and then my Auntie Eleanor, who was always very blunt, she said, that's a stupid question, Miget. Aren't you Chamorro? You should take Chamorro if you're Chamorro, you're not Spanish. You should take Chamorro. Aren't you a real Chamorro? And at that time, I did not feel like I was a real Chamorro at all, but I felt challenged. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna take Chamorro. And so I decided to, and I thought in my-- in sort of the smaller sort of more fragile parts of my brain, I thought I took Spanish. Chamorro was just like Spanish. We were colonized for a few hundred years. This should be easy, right? I was like the worst student in the class. I was so bad 'cause I had--a lot of the students in the class had grown up in Guam. So a lot of things they were already familiar with because in Guam, if you go to the public school, you take several years of Chamorro language. So things are very familiar. You may not be fluent, but you at least are familiar with certain songs, with certain, like pledges, certain words, vocabulary. I didn't know any of it. And so my professor, who is now a master storyteller in our culture, he teased me 'cause he knew my grandfather. And he's like, Miget, your grandfather is so very Chamorro and you are so very not Chamorro. You are a shame for your family. You bring shame to your family because I was so bad. And everyone was--and the thing is, like, I was--everyone knew me as being smart. 00:18:32.765 --> 00:19:40.635 I was always good in my classes. I was like the kid from California, like the Chamhaole Chamorro haole, the Chamorro white kid from California who talks a lot in the classes and does well, we can ask him for help with your homework. But in this class, I was so bad. And it was a very humbling experience. Some of the students who sat behind me who were pretty good in Chamorro, they would tease me. They would feed me answers and embarrass me. So there was a--there was a girl who I kind of had a crush on who sat on the other side of the class. And I would look at her sometimes and I would be like, man, Maria's so good at Chamorro and, but I'm so bad at Chamorro. I should get better at Chamorro than maybe Maria will like hang out with me or something like that. Because, you know, Maria, like, you know, she's learning to say the pray the Catholic prayers in Chamorro from her family, she's super Chamorro compared to me. And so the guys that sit behind me, they like whispered some stuff to me, and they told me to say this. And so after class, when I said it to her, it was very offensive. It's one of the most offensive things you can say in the Chamorro language, 00:19:40.635 --> 00:19:46.134 Oh no! 00:19:46.134 --> 00:19:48.868 that I said to her. And so she hasn't spoken to me since, but, 00:19:48.868 --> 00:19:49.000 You can't tell us what it is? 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:55.000 Oh, so the word is, Chada Nana-mu, so it means it's--you're your mother's eggs, as in you're your mother's vagina. 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Oh dear... 00:19:56.000 --> 00:22:12.585 So it's like a, it's the equivalent of like Chamorro for 'motherfucker'. And so I didn't--I had no idea 'cause my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, but my grandmother was very religious and she did not allow any cursing in Chamorro in the house. So I didn't even know curse words in Chamorro. Everyone else knew at least the curse words. I didn't know that. And that was super embarrassing. But all of these experiences were important because then what I had to do is that I had to go and I had to ask my grandparents for help with my homework. And my grandfather said, no. You know, and my grandmother said, absolutely. My grandmother was very excited to help me. And so she would sit with me and sometimes she would walk me through the homework and sometimes she would just do my homework for me. And so after a few weeks, my professor would be like, Miget, why is it that your written Chamorro is so good, but your spoken Chamorro is still so bad? And I'd be like, oh, I'm just, I need time to prepare professor. I just need time to prepare and then I got it. And so my grandmother was like, she was loving it. And the more that I went through this, the more I realized that like, my grandparents spoke more to each other, but they did not speak it to their children. So part of the legacy of the 20th century when the United States came into Guam is that one of the earliest things that they proposed is that the Chamorro language be banned in public spaces. So it was banned for the most part in schools. Children were punished. You might have to drink castor oil If you drink--if you speak Chamorro. You might get slapped on the fingers with a ruler. You might have to wear a dunce cap. There was like jars akin to swear jars where you have to pay a fine if you're caught speaking Chamorro. And children were encouraged to report on each other too. So eventually some teachers, some principals, created English clubs in which Chamorro children wore badges that said, "Speak English", "English only." And then they went around finding children speaking Chamorro and then they turned them in to get them in trouble. 00:22:12.585 --> 00:24:30.825 And so this created like an atmosphere in which--my-- for people in my grandparents' generation, they could all speak Chamorro, but the idea of passing the language on to the next generation was fraught with, it was fraught with peril because the school system, the United States, all of these things, all these pressures had basically convinced you that while the language is good for you to speak to your parents, good to speak to your peers, you shouldn't be using it with your children. The language shouldn't go on. And so what we've seen since then is ever since World War II, the language just completely declines to the point now where 80% of the Chamorro people in the world cannot speak their language. Including in the Mariana's Islands and then out here. And so my--so I didn't know much of this, but, when I came to my grandmother, though, she was so eager to help me and what was beautiful about it is that I was your typical sort of 19 and 20-year-old. And I'm very upfront about it 'cause I think sometimes people can be very--sometimes people can be very idealized. I was very upfront--I'll be very upfront, like I was a 19 and 20-year-old who did not want to hang out with my grandparents all the time. I had a car, I had friends, I had other things I wanted to do. So sometimes if my grandmother said, Mike, can you take me to the store? I might make something up. So I didn't have to. Or if she said, can you take me to a funeral? I would say, oh, I have homework. And so I don't--you know, I am very real about that because I loved my grandmother, but I didn't have this strong connection to her yet. But learning Chamorro from her gave me like a very strong connection. Because the more I sat with her at the breakfast table and the dinner table, and the more that we talked and the more that she shared, the more I realized that actually I would much rather be sitting at that table with her than going to any club or any bar going and hanging out with friends. 00:24:30.825 --> 00:28:41.865 And so I decided after taking the first level of Chamorro, I took the second level of beginning Chamorro. And like the second class I was having fun. Like, I went above and beyond, you know, like we had an assignment where you had to like translate an English song in Chamorro. I worked with my grandma to translate a bunch of songs into Chamorro. So I was like, grandma, can you help me translate? "Hey Jude" (Hey Jude by The Beatles) my grandma's like, hafa enao "Hey Jude", what's, "Hey Jude", what's that? And I'm like, here, ni ta ekungok, let's listen to it. And then she listened to it and then we sat there for a while translating, "Hey Jude". And then eventually after we had the lyrics, you know, we sat there just singing it in Chamorro together. And it was so much fun. We translated "Ain't No Sunshine When She's Gone" (Ain't No Sunshine by Bill Withers) into Chamorro. And it was like glorious because I realized that my--like I had lived with my grandparents a lot. I had sat in the cars with them. I had sat next to them in churches I had sat with next to them at parties. This didn't mean I talked to them a lot. This didn't mean I knew a lot about them. But once I came to my grandmother and my grandfather and I started to ask them for help in Chamorro, suddenly my grandmother was telling me things and talking to me. And I loved it. I loved it so much. And so after I finished my two Chamorro classes, I asked my grandmother in my very broken Chamorro I said, (speaking Chamorro), can you talk to me (in) Chamorro? And my grandmother was so happy. And my grandmother then shared that when she had been a teacher before World War II in the 1930s, 1940s, she had had to punish Chamorro children for speaking the language. And she hated it. She thought it was wrong. She did not like it. But those were the rules. And the Americans created the rule and then Chamorro principles and other Chamorro teachers enforced those rules. And so she couldn't challenge it, but she was so happy. My grandmother was a quiet woman that never like very rarely ever protested or spoke out directly, but she always whispered that more people need to stand up for the Chamorro people. And so when I told her I wanted to--when I wanted to learn Chamorro, she said, more people need to learn Chamorro, this is good. My grandfather resisted at first, he did not want to speak to me in Chamorro. He would tease me. And my grandfather and me always had a tough relationship in which he was always about teasing. But this is a normal thing. People experienced different types of trauma and people have different ways of dealing with that trauma. My grandfather had been, beaten by the Japanese during World War II. He had almost been executed along with his father and siblings by the Japanese during World War II. After the war, he had become the first Chamorro US immigration Officer. And his experience, there was something that I did not fully appreciate, until years after years when he would talk more openly and grandma would talk about it. But he was constantly made to feel like he was less than because he didn't speak good English. And so he--his resistance to sort of me speaking Chamorro. So for example, my grandfather, when I would ask him to help me with my Chamorro for the first few years, he would resist it just out of sort of insecurity. Like, I can't help you. Like why you wanna learn this language, this language stupid. It's useless. You should learn a language that people want to speak. All sorts of stuff like that. And so--but I persisted and eventually it changed my grandfather too. And so, you know, one of the things that me learning Chamorro did is that, you know, getting connected to my grandparents is that then I started enjoying spending time with them. 00:28:41.865 --> 00:32:56.464 So my grandfather had a shop in which he displayed his tools and sold his blacksmithing tools at one of the night market Chamorro village areas. And, I had to go with him every Wednesday night to help sell him. I used to hate it now, I liked it. I got to help grandpa, I got to talk to people, and I got to practice my Chamorro. And then I showed more interest now in grandpa as a blacksmith too. I wanted to know about this part of our culture. And so I left, you know, when I, left in, 2004 to start my PhD out here in California, I was learning Chamorro. And I was very sad because I thought like I was gonna lose my Chamorro ability 'cause I was gonna be away from my grandparents. Because I had gotten into this flow of--with my grandparents, where like I would before if my grandma said, can you take me to a funeral this week? I would be like, oh, grandma,I have a paper. Do I can't? But now I would wake up and I'd be like, Hey grandma, is there a funeral this week that I can take you to? 'cause I was excited to go and hold her hand and meet her friends and get to practice our language and then just hear their stories and then write them down. And then, this is when I started to do like my own oral history research--is that my grandmother would go with me and then we would sit with people, and like spend the afternoon taking down their stories. And it was so much fun. And so when I went out to the States for my PhD, I thought that this was gonna kind of like ruin my Chamorro, but it actually made my-- it made me miss my grandparents a lot. I called them just about every day to keep practicing. And then within a few years I came back and my grandfather had completely changed his kind of attitude to the end of his life, my grandfather said that my Chamorro is not the same as his Chamorro. And he would--he could sometimes be very mean about that. But when I came back in 20--2008 and I was starting to work on my dissertation, like something had shifted in him because by that time that I was, you know, I was getting a name for myself as somebody who cared about culture and language and I was maybe gonna be like a professor or something. And he--and people were telling my grandfather, you should be proud Mr. Lujan of your grandson. He can speak Chamorro. And so he was starting to shift. And so in 2008, my youngest--my younger brother and me both came back to Guam. And I asked my grandfather, you know--to if he wanted our help in his blacksmith shop. And for the first time he said yes. And that was, that was very life changing because he had always said no before. And he had always done it in a way that is very reminiscent of sort of like cultural artisans in which they basically say, yes, I will teach you, but you have to show enough initiative. So like--so if you don't show that you care enough, then they're not really gonna teach you. They're gonna say they're willing to teach you. But if it's clear that you don't care enough. So like for example, if you--so some people that would ask my grandfather to teach them, he would say, come to my house at like 10 o'clock on a Sunday. And then if they showed up at 10 o'clock and they didn't bring any food with them, then he would say, nevermind, you know, if you're serious, you should come earlier. You should bring something to eat. 'cause we got to eat. And so you gotta show that you care and you have to show that you respect the person you're learning from. And so learning from my grandfather, that was very life changing. And it was frustrating at times. But part of it was that my grandfather's--sort of his insecurity, his trauma around English, his trauma dealing with racism, like, I don't know if he ever kind of dealt with it in any full way, but at least me speaking Chamorro gave him some comfort when we were in the shop. He could speak English if he wanted to, but he could also speak Chamorro. 00:32:56.464 --> 00:35:55.385 And sometimes he might tease my Chamorro, your Chamorro is not my Chamorro (speaking Chamorro). But we kept learning, making tools and it was, it was fun and it was cool. And all of this just solidified me as somebody who like cares about language, culture, history, people in like a very deep way. And so it-- and it's all because my grandparents, and it's all because of my connection to them. And it's all because I humbled myself to take the language from them, even if it may have taken a little while for my grandfather. And so I, I hold onto, (responding off camera) oh is it okay, okay. I hold onto to certain memories. 'cause now them, both of them have passed away. My grandmother passed away in 2013 and my grandfather passed away in 2015. And so I was so glad that my grandmother got to hear, one of her great-grandchildren speak Chamorro before she passed. And it was a very touching moment where we went over to visit and my oldest child who's now 17, you know, went to go, while I sat at the table with my grandfather and was talking, my oldest child who was just a young baby at that time, went over to go and sit with my grandmother in the living room. And you know, my grandmother came over after a few minutes and she put her hand on my shoulder and you know, she said to me, (speaking Chamorro) your daughter is speaking Chamorro. And I was like, yeah, (responding in Chamorro) because for me, every one of my children, from the moment they're born, I promised them (speaking Chamorro), I tell them, I will protect you with all of my life and then I will speak to you only in this language. And so my grandmother was like tearing and up and crying and she was rubbing my shoulder and I was like, (speaking Chamorro) grandma she's speaking Chamorro. And my grandmother was like, (responding in Chamorro) It's like a miracle, because after a while there's still thousands of Chamorro speakers, but they're all older. There's very few young Chamorro speakers. It's very rare to hear a baby speaking Chamorro or a child speaking Chamorro. And so I'm so glad that I got to have that moment with my grandmother to give her that moment and for me to have that moment. And even for my grandfather who towards the end of his life, he would not let go of blacksmithing even when he could no longer stand on his own. We would have to wheel him down into the shop and he was in a walker and we would've to hold him up so that he could work. 00:35:55.385 --> 00:39:31.835 And even when his eyesight started to go, he was still better at shaping blades and sharpening blades than I was. But towards the--in like the last few months of his life, he told me, you know, (speaking Chamorro) our Chamorro's not the same, but I'm happy that you're speaking Chamorro. And I think that was the best I was ever gonna get from Grandpa in terms of acknowledgement. But all of this though, basically made it so that what was something that was not important to me at all, the Chamorro language, has become something that is like supremely important to me--wanting to share.--having like that experience when I was trying to learn Chamorro in Guam in the early two thousands and having that experience of working with my grandmother and then trying to find elders to help me practice, but then realizing that fewer and fewer people can speak the language. So when I was like 21 years old, I would map out my day to always try to find the Chamorro speakers. When I go to a grocery store, who is the cashier that can speak Chamorro. And I go to them. You know, if I go to like a clinic, which is the nurse that can speak Chamorro, and then I'll try to talk to that person. And then--but realizing that for a lot of people, if they wanna learn Chamorro, it's gonna be really difficult just because they may encounter somebody--like they're--they may not have somebody who's as generous as like my grandmother. 'cause my grandmother was like the kindest soul ever. When I would like create atrocious Chamorro sentences, my grandmother would say, I wouldn't say it like that. Why don't you try saying it like this? My grandfather would just be like, it's wrong lachi' it's wrong. That's--or he would tease me, what's that? Tagalog? Is that Tagalog? He would just tease me. And most Chamorros, because of their own kind of insecurities around the language, especially being punished for speaking Chamorro, like they'll just tease. 'cause they don't want to deal with like the trauma involved. So what I did is, even though I got a degree in Ethnic Studies, which was not about language revitalization, I just decided to make language revitalization a big part of my life. I decided to make sure that my kids can speak Chamorro, but I also decided that I would help the community. And so for the past 15 years I've had free language classes in the community. At first they started off in a smoothie shop and then they started--and then they went to coffee shops. And sometimes like two people, three people would be there. I would put up a flyer or later put up just a note on Facebook saying, free Chamorro lessons, just come down. If somebody buys me a drink, I'll teach you Chamorro. And sometimes there'd be a few people, sometimes there'd be 20 people and it would ebb and flow. But for me it was just important because there's classes that you can take on Guam, you can sign up for a class in the University, but there needs to be more spaces than that. And so for me it was just like, come to a coffee shop and I'll give you--I'll just give you some lessons in Chamorro. 'cause some people don't have the money or don't have the time to go and sign up for like a full on class. 00:39:31.835 --> 00:42:00.853 And so I kept these language classes going on Guam for a very long time. And it was pretty interesting because over the years, so many people kind of filtered through them. People who were like poli-- eventual politicians, activists, radical scholars. People would come on island and just like hang out at them just to kind of see what is this language class here? And the classes would be all types because they would be basically based on like whatever people were feeling. So sometimes it would be handouts with like a formal lesson. And then sometimes if people had a little bit more fluency, we would just play games in Chamorro. So like we would play Clue in Chamorro or we would play Scrabble in Chamorro. And then, we even played Dungeons and Dragons in Chamorro. And so sometimes we would just listen to music and then translate songs. And so it would just change depending on whoever came and whoever was coming. And so it was a very--it was a wonderful organic community space for language learning. And then the pandemic happened. And at that point I had maybe like 20 or 30 people who are coming every Friday, excuse me, every Saturday to the classes. And I just put it out to them in our WhatsApp chats like, well, I don't know when this is over the pandemic. Do you just want to meet on Zoom? And everyone said yes. And I said, well, are you okay if I also just like invite people online? I'll just put it out online too and say free Chamorro classes people can sign up and, and come, and when I say sign up, you just need to get the Zoom link and then you can just join. There's no formal sign up, there's no fees. You just have to come and then hang out. And I wasn't prepared for how like successful it was. In the first year, in 2020, we broke my Zoom 'cause there was a limit that I didn't know about where you could only have a hundred people. So then I had to like upgrade my Zoom for more people. And so that was--and then at the high point, like in August of 2020, over the course of three hours, because I would offer three levels, beginner, beginner, two, and then intermediate. There was 300 people in the class. 00:42:00.853 --> 00:42:00.864 Wow. 00:42:00.864 --> 00:45:39.264 And I'm always careful because people come to the class at different stages and for different reasons. So some people come are very serious learners. They want to study. They're going to come up with a plan for learning. Other people just feel the word in Chamorro is mahalang, meaning lonely, isolated, homesick. They just don't have any Chamorros around them. Maybe they're the only Chamorro in their corner of Wyoming or Vermont and maybe they've left the islands or maybe they are somebody where their family migrated to the United States in the fifties or sixties and then erased what it means to be Chamorro. Not just the language, but then even just-- 'cause I've encountered so many students where they wouldn't even use the word Chamorro at all because of pressures to assimilate or perhaps feelings of racism that were internalized. And so students come into the classes and they just are so excited to be in a space where like, I'm a Chamorro, I don't know what it means. Is it okay to be here? And I'm like, yeah, this is a space for everybody. Like you don't have to be the smartest Chamorro. You don't have to be the best Chamorro just--and you don't even have to be Chamorro. 'cause a bunch of people have Chamorro wives or husbands or partners or they have a-- like even in the program that we have now, four of the people in our immersion program here are not Chamorro. And so from this program, it's like, it's grown huge. And when I say people join because they have different needs and they're at different points, it's so true. Some people will turn on their cameras and they will take copious notes. Other people, you know, will basically be driving, you know, driving in their car, who knows where, other people will be cooking with their family, other people--one of my favorites is when one of the students had her camera off, but sometimes when she turned it on, it was clear that she was a nurse in a hospital. So her camera accidentally went on and like, she was in the hospital in the class. And like there was like a someone they were working on. And I was just like, Hey, it's okay. Go take care of that person and then you can come back. We understand, we appreciate your love of our language and culture, but don't worry it'll be here go, go help that person. But so that's-- for me, that's-- yeah, for me, as somebody who learned the language as a second language, it's key, right? Because, languages, you know, it's key to have a variety of spaces to meet a variety of needs. Sometimes people assume that you need one space or like one proposal, and that's simply not the case. Certain types of learners can use certain types of programs of learning, but heritage learners are so different. Heritage learners of languages even--are so dramatically different because even the excitement that somebody feels in learning the language can block them in learning the language. Because what they feel like, I should, I should be able to say this. I'm Chamorro. Doesn't my DNA give me an advantage? Your DNA doesn't really give you an advantage. Like there's ways that you--there's ways that your sort of, your spiritual connection, your cultural connection, it can help you. But it's not like downloading an app. 00:45:39.264 --> 00:50:13.034 And so from,--so June (June Pangelinan), and most people that are in the immersion program that we're having here at San Marcos, they were my Zoom language students. So June Pangelinan started--and Clarissa Mendiola, they started in, 2020. And then June actually came to Guam the following year. And she met with me. 'cause I work at the, as the curator at the Guam Museum. And she met with me when I was giving a number of my language students who had come on island at the same time. She met with me after I gave them a tour of the museum. And she asked me, she said, you know, coming to Guam and then like, finding that like my family, even those who speak Chamorro won't speak Chamorro to me. And I know it's hard for people to understand because there's, there's thousands, there's still tens of thousands of Chamorro speakers. But you also have to remember that they're not there to serve you and the language. So you have to create a relationship with them. And sometimes students have trouble with that 'cause they feel like, my grandma speaks Chamorro, she should just speak to me in Chamorro. Your grandma has a lot of--there's a lot of issues involved. Like, you need to, you know, you need to make your grandma feel loved and trusted and cared for. Like your grandma probably, she may have been a survivor of World War II in Guam, the Japanese occupation, she was probably punished for speaking Chamorro. So when you say, hey, just speak to me in Chamorro, you're like bumping up against a lot of things and you can help her get past those things, but your desire for her to teach you is not enough. She's got a lot of blocks and you can help her get through those. But part of it is decentering the self, not learning through the ego, not learning through the ego. That's like, that's the danger for heritage learners learning through the ego. It's the worst. So June had had that experience where she had like prepared herself to be on Guam and then her family that spoke Chamorro, like really didn't speak Chamorro to her. Like she tried, but they wouldn't, they would just speak English to her. And it's--the dynamics are tricky. 'cause for most people you wanna be understood, right? And for most people, we have cognitive maps of the world. We see people in languages. And so if you see a particular person, a particular body, if there's a particular place, a lot of times our minds assign a language to it instinctively. And it doesn't mean you can't use any language there, but what happens is that your brain part of it will fire up and you'll enter--So like when I walk in here, oh, English, English. But when I go, you know, if I go into my grandma and grandpa's house, oh, Chamorro, Chamorro. And so having people kind of understand that. But so for June, she asked me, she's like, do you think it would be possible to create like a program, like an immersion program where students can like level up their learning? And I was like, of course. Will you help organize it? Because if you agree to help, then I will absolutely teach it and I will help organize it, but I just don't have the time or ability to like run the program. And so June, as they say in Chamorro, geftao, very, very generous, gof geftao. She took that task on in 2022. And then her and then Clarissa took the task on in 2023 the second year. And then this year we decided to bring it out to the diaspora because there are far more Chamorros that live out in the diaspora than live in the islands at this point. But there's almost no infrastructure out here for language learning. And so, it's been beautiful. It's been beautiful. Like, creating these spaces. It's also very exhausting. This type of work is so exhausting, but seeing sort of people come to the culture, come to the language, even just hearing the differences from day one to day five in terms of how much Chamorro they're using, it's difficult because we don't practice sort of like an aggressive immersion model. Because I always tell people, you know, aggressive immersion models can be effective, but they are also not fun. 00:50:13.034 --> 00:52:16.784 Like, one of our participants in the first year, Jesse Lujan Bennett, she has a--her husband is Maori and he-- she was in a Chamorro immersion program, he was in a Maori immersion program that same year. And so in our program, people were like crying every day about sort of their identity, coming to terms with things. And then Jesse asked her husband, are you guys crying every day? And he's like, no? It's a language immersion program. Why would we like do that? We're here to learn a language. And so--but it's a--one of these things is-- so one of --at least for me, the way that I see it is that it's a language and culture immersion program. And so what you're doing is you're giving people this robust connection to language and culture. You're giving them language for sure, but you are also trying to forge a connection that will increase the chances that they will continue to learn, or that they will continue to take up to Chamorro causes, whether at their work, in their family, in in life, social media, whatever. But just so that in--because--and it's kind of tricky because yeah, we're in the classroom all day and then part of me just wants to say no. Like, if you just wanna learn the language, then there has to be less space for you to talk about your feelings. But I also recognize that if you do that, then people may come away from this and say well--'cause this is the danger of second, you know, heritage learners, is that they don't have to learn the language. There's oftentimes not like a--there's a desire to learn it, perhaps like an identity based desire to learn it. But if it's unpleasant, then they simply will stop learning it. And so that's like the balance for it. If it's a bootcamp, then they'll just stop learning. 00:52:16.784 --> 00:53:31.425 And so that's the trade off. That's the trade off is trying to find a balance there where people get as much of the language as possible, but they also have the space where they can kind of come express their identity, talk about their feelings. Which unfortunately because of where they're at in their language level, has to be in English. And then--but fundamentally though, all of this puts them in a better position that they will come back to the Zoom classes to keep learning, or they will take up learning in another way in their family. Because this is about permeating the foundation of who they are as opposed--So oftentimes what we say is more than words, sort of the more aggressive language immersion models are words, words, conversation. You give people that and that's what they regurgitate. We have a more holistic model, which has its advantages, has its dis disadvantages, but it is rooted in this idea of that we are shaping sort of the larger person and their identity. So that hopefully yeah, they won't--this isn't their only experience in learning Chamorro. (Glances at the clock) Oh yeah. Five more minutes.. 00:53:31.425 --> 00:53:38.235 Oh wow! May I ask a question? 00:53:38.235 --> 00:53:38.244 Sure. 00:53:38.244 --> 00:53:55.255 I wanted to go back to 16-year-old you when your grandparents invited you to come home. What made you decide to say yes? Like what were you--where was your mind when you said yes? Was there any hesitation. 00:53:55.255 --> 00:57:24.804 At that time--there was definitely some hesitation, but at that time I was just really unhappy with sort of being in where my family was living in California and then just not knowing who I was. And not having any ability to like--not having any real answers. And, yeah. And so looking back on it, and I think part of it too, at least at that time, I was feeling frustrated with my mom and my stepdad and I wanted to kind of get a break from them and get away. And then on Guam I would be more free with my grandparents. And so I think a lot of it came down to that, just wanting to kind of get away. And I wouldn't have admitted at that time that I had questions about who I was. But, I definitely had those questions. I had no idea, like I didn't know where I fit in. And it's always been difficult for me as sort of like a--as a mixed race man with light complected, skin, dark, you know, sometimes dark features, dark hair, and then sometimes sort of passing, sometimes not passing and then never knowing when it's gonna work. So even like where my mom stayed in California in Atascadero, like I remember as a teenager looking for a job and I just went--there's a help wanted sign in like some sort of like antique store. And then I walked in and then like the owner basically says, no, not you, not your kind out. And I was just like, what? And I was just like--I mean, it was a very racially segregated town at that time. I mean, now it's a little bit more gentrified as people move up to escape cities and stuff. But at that time it was basically a lot of, farms and stuff and people that worked on the farms and people that owned the farms. And so--but it was everywhere I went. So like, I remember walking into a comic bookstore in San Luis Obispo once and I was walking around 'cause I didn't have a car 'cause my mother was working and I was waiting for her to finish. And then I just had found a stick and I was walking aong--so I was just like walking with like a stick. And then like, I walked into the store and then the owner was like, you need to get out of here. We don't allow weapons in here. And I'm like, it's just, it's just a stick. He's like, no, no. That's a deadly weapon in the right hands. And I'm like, I don't know how to use it as a deadly weapon. And he's like, you need to get outta here. And I'm just like, what? So it was like--I didn't--so this--these sorts of things happened a lot like in just these ways. That was always like surprising. And one of the things that always was hurtful for me was that my--the middle brother Jack. So there's, from my mom and my dad, there's Jack--there's me, Jack and Jeremy. And then my middle brother Jack is very white passing. And so when we would--like, so when we would go into places, like he would never get harassed or never like--but then I would sort of get like rude treatment or get followed in stores and stuff like that. And so like --and so it was just sort of like this weird thing like where do I belong? Like what is this? 00:57:24.804 --> 01:00:18.525 I don't even understand like why people hate me or don't like me. And I had--didn't have enough consciousness at that time to even like be like a brown power sort of person or like racial consciousness. It just, it just sucked. And it made me angry at my father, my white father. 'cause he definitely didn't understand a lot of that. 'cause my white father at that time, both of my parents kind of didn't understand. They just saw me as being sort of like a rebellious teen. And then even my brother didn't quite understand at that time either. And so, going to Guam made perfect sense because I--it took a little while, but I found a place where I belonged. Yeah. And that was like a great feeling. just like thinking--and I feel it here too, when my kids, who are my teenagers who are here with us, when they're go around and they sort of feel--they kind of like it that you go around in San Marcos and no one knows you. And I'm like, yeah, I know that. But then after a while, you might miss the fact that no one knows you. 'cause I start to miss that if I'm in the States for too long and you don't know anybody. I miss that. 'cause yes, it is draining and exhausting to be on a small island where lots of people know you and you have all these connections and obligations, but it's also a full life. And so for me, what I loved about going home was that I became tun Jack's--tun is a sign--a marker of respect, tun Jack Lujan's grandson. And that gave me a place, and it was a place that I struggled with sometimes, but I eventually came to like it. Representing my grandfather, representing my family. You know, I'm not the one that you go to if you want food for the party, but if you want a lecture about, you know, Guam history, I'm the one that you go to if you want research on our family background. I'm the one that you go to if you want something translated into Chamorro, I'm the one that you go to. And so finding a place that was going back to Guam was kind of the start of that. And then not knowing, you know, just all of this kind of ambiguity. And then finally realizing like going home and then standing next to my grandparents and then being their grandson, and then feeling the pressure off of me. Like, oh, I'm their grandson. This--these are my roots. And at first, not liking that a lot, but then eventually accepting it and embracing it and liking it and enjoying it a lot. But, so that's, that's one of the reasons why. 01:00:18.525 --> 01:00:42.905 Your grandparents obviously had a huge influence on you. And you also spoke briefly by your Auntie Eleanor. Can you tell me who--what other people had a profound effect on, on your life path, whether or not they were personal connections or even, public figures who you looked up to at the time, and now whether they're in your community or not? 01:00:42.905 --> 01:00:57.434 Oh, yeah. Let me think here. There's a number of people that I could definitely highlight. I'm trying to think if I want to do more language focused or-- 01:00:57.434 --> 01:01:06.105 Yeah. Maybe a, maybe a bit of both. 01:01:06.105 --> 01:03:03.485 So, yeah, one of the things that I like to do in the way that I teach and the way that I engage people is to kind of talk about sort of the figures from our history that can kind of inspire them to go past, their feelings of insecurity. So like, for example, yesterday we were focusing in the language immersion program on Chamorro music. And so we divided into groups. Groups had to sing some Chamorro songs. They also had to translate an English song into Chamorro and then sing it for everybody. And then today--oh, and then I talked about, for example, one of sort of the most famous Chamorro singers, a man named Johnny Sablan, who's still alive. And so I always use him as an example for learners, because when Johnny Sablan was 20 years old, he had already a career as like a teeny bopper recording English music in California. But he had an experience when he was going to college in Monterey, California, where he was part of like an ethnic culture club. An ethnic music club. And when his friends told him, Hey, Johnny, can you share some Guamese songs with us? And he realized, because Johnny Sablan could not speak Chamorro, he realized that he didn't know any Chamorro songs except for like religious songs, church songs. He didn't know any Chamorro songs. And so that experience, that experience basically led him then to go and seek out his elders and collect Chamorro songs. And then what he did is he sold his motorbike that he had in California, and he bought studio time. And instead of continuing to record in English, he decided to record the first ever Chamorro language album. 01:03:03.485 --> 01:05:45.505 And I told the students, and I always remind students, and I say, he did this even though he wasn't fluent in Chamorro. So he recorded elders who worked with him to pronounce the words correctly, to help him memorize the words. And even when you hear that first album you can tell that he messes up. And even the Chamorro musicians who did the backup music teased him and said, what are you doing making a Chamorro record? You can't even speak the language. You shouldn't be doing this. And he said, somebody's gotta do it. And so I always tell them, I say, I always try to highlight the figures who push against the grain, who push back, because I always say, for my students in my work, I always invoke the saying, Anggen ti hita pues håyi? if not us, then who? So if Johnny Sablan hadn't recorded that first ever Chamorro vinyl record in 1968, when would that have happened? Who would've done it? Like, who was the right person to do it? 'cause people told Johnny Sablan, you're not the right person to do it. And so I love to share stories like that. So every time I start a a new Zoom class, I always present a figure from our history who was a pioneer in the language in some way to help inspire the students. And usually there're people that I knew who inspired me as well. So for me, I remained inspired by Johnny Sablan. 'cause that idea that you would put yourself out there when you couldn't even fluently speak Chamorro, but to make a whole record and then just put it out there, it's--in Chamorro they say matatnga, brave. It's audacious. And so for language learners, you need that nowadays. You need some bravery, you need some audacious. And so I'm always--I always like to share stories like that to inspire students and say, look, Johnny Sablan is now a symbol of Chamorro culture and language. He was where you are at now. He couldn't speak Chamorro. He had a grandmother who didn't speak English. So he kind of had to pantomime and make do, and he could understand a little bit with what she said. But he struggled in Chamorro. He could not speak it, but he said that every people have an identity. Every people have a song. And even if the songs that he makes are different, that the music, the instruments have changed. It's important that the Chamorro people have music just like everybody else. 01:05:45.505 --> 01:05:53.394 And so I, I love that idea. Just like, don't get stuck up in the idea. Like, just do it. 01:05:53.394 --> 01:05:54.605 Have you ever met him? 01:05:54.605 --> 01:06:10.385 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I know Johnny, he's still around. He's still around. I always try to sit down with an interview for him, but he's been sick for a while. So he's difficult to interview nowadays. But one of these days I'll get to sit down and just spend the afternoon with him. 01:06:10.385 --> 01:06:19.000 Oh, I hope so. I have so many more follow up questions, but I think we have to wrap up, unfortunately. 01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:20.097 Oh, no. 01:06:20.097 --> 01:06:24.813 Is there anything, feel free to (gestures at water) yeah. 01:06:24.813 --> 01:06:26.385 Oh yeah. 01:06:26.385 --> 01:06:33.224 Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything I should have asked about? Anything you want to cover? oh, 01:06:33.224 --> 01:06:40.065 No, no. Thank you for letting me talk and ramble. 01:06:40.065 --> 01:06:42.090 Can I ask one more question? 01:06:42.090 --> 01:06:43.536 Of course. Of course. 01:06:43.536 --> 01:06:55.784 You talk about your children a lot, your four kids. What kind of world do you want to see for them? Whether Chamorro related climate, anything. Like what's your vision for them? 01:06:55.784 --> 01:08:56.185 Oh yeah. That was really one of the reasons why I started to teach the Chamorro language, was that I was speaking to my kids in Chamorro, my older kids, my current teenagers. And I was realizing though, that as they get older, there was no other kids their age that could speak Chamorro. They have no cousins that can speak Chamorro. There's some other children, 'cause there are like, immersion schools for youth that can, that are trying to bring up speakers. But in general, there was not speakers. And so I could see them that I would speak Chamorro to them, but for the rest of the world, they would just speak English and the language would kind of fade away. So I just started--so one motivation for starting just the organic community classes was just to try to get more people to speak Chamorro. And in a university, there's all sorts of issues, bureaucracy, and it can be very good to have that, but it can also be very problematic. So I just said, let's, let's do it as easy as possible, just a coffee shop and people show up and then, you know, so people take this on, not because they want credit, not because of this. People just show up because they wanna show up. And so I do feel definitely depressed at times because I know--so for example, with my two older children, they speak to each other in English. They speak to me only in Chamorro. And I only speak to them in Chamorro, but they speak to each other in English. And so it was something which I struggled with for a very long time. Trying to kind of get them more comfortable and confident in the language. But, but ultimately it's hard because there's no--studies show that, you know, that young children, they tend not to adopt the language of their families. They tend to adopt the language of their peers. 01:08:56.185 --> 01:11:29.795 And so if there's no one speaking Chamorro around them, then kids aren't gonna like be picking up Chamorro. They're not gonna be using it 'cause they don't assign it social value. And they certainly don't assign social value to something from their parents at that time. So yes. But a lot of what I do is sort of related to trying to improve things for them. I've told, so Sumåhi, my oldest is 17 and Sumåhi's very good at writing in Chamorro. She serves as the youth representative for the Chamorro Language Commission in Guam. And she does not like to acknowledge it, but is a star for all of the students here. Everyone here like adores Sumåhi. 'cause they see her as like the future of the language. And so when I talk to my older kids, I tell them it's like, you know, there's gonna be a place for you in this language, in this culture. Like, I'm, creating a place for you. It's up to you what you wanna do with it. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to do what I say. Soon you'll be old enough that you can make your own choices. But I do hope that you come home, I do hope that you keep this alive and then--'cause the idea that this language has existed for thousands of years, but then within the lifetime of my children, it could disappear. Makes me very sad. And so for my older child, she understands it more. She definitely understands it more. Although she's trying to figure out things in terms of her own life choices, like where she wants to go to college and what she wants to do. And she doesn't really like the fame that she has. 'cause people on Guam come up to her and they say, Sumåhi, you're so cool. Sumåhi, you're so cool. Can I get a picture with you? And Sumåhi's like, who are you (Speaking Chamorro). Who's this person? And so--so yes. But in time I'm hoping-- I give them the space so that they don't have to participate if they don't want to and that they can do--They--But I always tell them, I hope you find your way back. 'cause this is, you know, this makes our family special, this makes us special. And so. Yeah. 01:11:29.795 --> 01:13:46.585 'cause what I always like to tell people is there's so many different ways that you can express love of your culture, of your identity, but your language is one that cannot be replaced with other sort of exchangeable forms. So I always tease people and say that you can buy a thousand shirts that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand recipes that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand pieces of jewelry, get a thousand tattoos all over your body. But none of those things, and all those things are important, but none of them replace the connection that your language gives you to your past. And so the difference though is that you still cannot buy your language the way you can buy a t-shirt, where you can buy a tattoo, where you can buy food. And so that's part of my goal here, is to impress upon people that your language is an irreplaceable part of your culture. And so for those of you who are--who wanna take on the task of keeping it alive, you keep alive a connection to our ancestors that, yeah, that is actually more durable and more powerful than a lot of the other things that you can buy at a festival or online. Yeah, yeah. It's true because, for the Chamorro people, we were the first people--we were likely the first people to settle the Pacific Islands to leave somewhere in Asia, in boats, in ships, and then settle the Marianas Islands 3,500 - 4,000 years ago. And so I always try to impress upon people that what we brought with us, a lot of that has changed dramatically. But in our language, so many of the words that we use today, those are the words that were first spoken with, the first breaths that came over with those first sellers. 01:13:46.585 --> 01:14:10.524 And so it's a harder road to become fluent in your language, but it is a deeper connection. And so this is not to say that if you don't know your language, you are less of a Chamorro, but you cannot substitute your connection to your language with food tattoos or, or t-shirts. Yeah. 01:14:10.524 --> 01:14:14.045 Thank you. 01:14:14.045 --> 01:14:14.965 (Coughs) Oh, excuse me. 01:14:14.965 --> 01:14:17.604 That's Alright. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Michael. 01:14:17.604 --> 01:14:19.425 Oh, no problem. To Michael. 01:14:19.425 --> 01:14:21.965 It was a pleasure. 01:14:21.965 --> 01:14:23.965 Oh no, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. Description An account of the resource Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-089 Subject The topic of the resource Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Language revival Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Grandparents Education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-07-12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii Guam Atascadero (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rick Blankemeier OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. SC027-067 01:28:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewing industry ; Stone Brewing Company ; Belching Beaver Brewery ; Modern Times Beer + Coffee ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County ; Brewing industry -- Quality control ; Brewing industry -- Accidents Rick Blankemeier Judith Downie sound BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bd5e888c4de2b7cf6584dfe5ca3b1bcb.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction Oral history of Rick Blankemeier on January 3rd, 2025 by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 150 Getting Started in Brewing Rick Blankemeier discusses his education as well as how he got his start in brewing through his wife who got him his first home brew kit. Brewing ; Home brewing ; Colorado 0 618 Quality Control Manager Rick talks about his work at Stone Brewery, Modern Times Brewing, and Belching Beaver Brewery as a quality control manager and the collaborative spirit of the San Diego brewing scene. collaboration ; brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times ; Belching Beaver 0 1038 Winning Stone's Spotlight Competition and Leaving Stone for the Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler won Stone Brewing's first Spotlight competition by creating Spröcketbier. After spending years as a quality control manager at Stone Brewing, Rick jumped on the opportunity to become a Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times, another brewery in San Diego. He talks about the transition from one position to another and how he needed to reshape his way of thinking to encompass a larger picture of the brewing business. Manager ; Director of Brewing Operations ; Brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times Brewing 0 1751 Designing Spröcketbier's label and a Tribute to Matt Courtright Rick talks about how he came up with the Spröcketbier label design and how that gave tribute to Matt Courtright who lost his life in a forklift accident while working at Stone. That accident had a big impact on how Rick approached safety while working for Modern Times and Belching Beaver. Matt Courtright ; Label Design ; Workplace accident ; Workplace safety 0 2186 The Physical Toll of Brewing Rick talks about how the manual labor of brewing at scales like Stone, Modern Times, and Belching Beaver can have an impact on the quality of life and health of workers later on in life. 0 2301 Marketing Spröcketbier Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler were flown around the country to go to different brewing events and talk about Spröcketbier. Spröcketbier ; Work trip ; all expenses paid ; Brewing events 0 2746 The Impact of the COVID Pandemic on Brewing Rick talks about how the COVID-19 pandemic impacted the brewing industry in San Diego. COVID ; Pandemic ; Shutdowns 0 3537 Belching Beaver and International Relations Rick talks about being let go by Modern Times and going back to his roots as a Quality Control Manager at Belching Beaver Brewing. At Belching Beaver he developed relationships with Chinese distributers while educating them on the quality control process. international relations ; quality control ; Belching Beaver 0 4013 Leaving Brewing Rick talks about how both he and his wife decided to leave the brewing industry during COVID because of the poor treatment of service industry workers and the rocky ups and downs of the economy. 0 4254 Teaching at UCSD Rick talks about his time teaching at UCSDs Brewing Extension program. He started as a substitute instructor whenever the courses' primary instructor was absent and eventually became the primary teacher. UCSD ; Teaching ; Brewing Extension program 0 4736 Still Enjoying Craft Beer Rick talks about how he still enjoys the craft beer scene even though he is no longer involved with brewing. His favorite watering hole is Battle Mage Brewing in Vista, California. 0 Oral history Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:06.264 And that, and send that to you later. So. Okay. Well, Rick, if you will start by introducing yourself and what you do now. 00:00:06.264 --> 00:00:20.065 Oh, okay. Um, yeah. My name is Rick Blankemeier. I am a, right now I'm the quality, one of the quality engineers at a place called Hydronautics, which makes reverse osmosis filtration membranes. 00:00:20.065 --> 00:00:22.925 Ah, So you're still kind of in consumable beverages in a way. 00:00:22.925 --> 00:00:25.675 A little bit, yeah. In like the water side of things, 00:00:25.675 --> 00:00:25.684 Uhhuh. 00:00:25.684 --> 00:00:53.195 Like we make desalination elements. And, stuff for wastewater treatment and, uh, dairy processing. That's like one of our big things we do is make elements to separate the curds and the whey in cheese making. So, but we do sell elements to breweries too. And, like Belching Beaver, I know buys them and Stone does for all their reclamation operations that they have there still. So, yeah we're pretty happy about that. 00:00:53.195 --> 00:01:01.244 Yeah. So are they any of them using your systems for the water that they're using to brew with? Or is it more for their reclamation? 00:01:01.244 --> 00:01:30.000 Uh. Both. Yeah. So we have different elements that, you know, perform differently. The--one of our elements is definitely better for just--brackish--we call it brackish solutions. It's basically filtering city water or even just like slightly heavier salt water. But then we have desal stuff, which they don't use, but then we also have wastewater reclamation elements that are more specialized for that. And like high pH environments. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:37.045 And certainly something that we need around here. With our abbreviated waters supplies, which, you know, yeah. I've grown up with. 00:01:37.045 --> 00:01:53.114 Actually most of our clients are customers are in the Middle East and India. Actually. It's like, where a lot of it's being used. We actually sell the desal elements to the Gaza Strip's desal plant for drinking water for all the Gaza folks there. So-- 00:01:53.114 --> 00:01:56.305 And there's probably a lot of that that's been blown up and ruined and-- 00:01:56.305 --> 00:02:06.444 Yeah. Well, they try not to target infrastructure like that Because it also feeds drinking water into other parts of Israel too. So, I think it'll, yeah-- 00:02:06.444 --> 00:02:09.693 Yeah. So there's some self self concern going on there. 00:02:09.693 --> 00:02:10.638 A little bit. 00:02:10.638 --> 00:02:10.875 Oh, man. 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:12.884 Yeah. It's a pretty bad situation over there. 00:02:12.884 --> 00:02:15.568 Well, but that certainly is, is keeping you busy. 00:02:15.568 --> 00:02:16.104 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:02:16.104 --> 00:02:19.895 So anyway, well, we'll--we're gonna start delving into your past. 00:02:19.895 --> 00:02:19.905 Okay. 00:02:19.905 --> 00:02:26.432 And of course, focusing on the brewing industry. But first, where are you from and what's your educational process or path been? 00:02:26.432 --> 00:04:05.625 Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, so I, my, both my parents were in the military, so we moved around a fair amount, but when I was younger, if I was gonna say like where I'm from, it'd be Colorado. And we settled down in Aurora when my parents were stationed there, and then they retired. Yeah, so we--I stayed there from basically ages, uh, six until we moved out here for work. But, uh, they--my education path's pretty similar, but I got in, I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder, and I did a combination master's, uh, a bachelor's/master's degree in chemical engineering with an emphasis on bioengineering. So I did a lot of, uh, actually it was specialized in tissue engineering. And then once I graduated, decided not to do anything with that and went into natural gas. Um, and so I did a natural gas plant and worked, you know, to set up a process for turning natural gas into hydrogen for fuel cell cars. And also for other hydrogen needs that a lot of other, you know, applications in the petrochemical business. So we'd sell hydrogen to other plants for that. And then, uh, I hated it. And so, my wife and I, well, my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, got me a homebrew kit and, uh, when I was kind of miserable and really enjoyed that. So I found a job out here, and that's when we moved out here in April of 2010. To work at Stone. And I started as a brewer and worked my way up to the quality manager there. 00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:09.844 Do you think it was advantageous to work as a brewer before you went into quality management? 00:04:09.844 --> 00:04:51.944 I think so. Yeah. Um, brewers, at least when I worked with them, I'm not sure if that's the same now, but they definitely respected you more if you worked on the floor. They called the office people, carpet walkers, a lot. And, uh, which they're--a lot of 'em are very necessary for the operation of business. But in terms of the amount of respect, they definitely respected anyone who was, you know, worked on the floor at least, and a recent amount of time, so like, and plus I had to be on the floor a lot, you know to help out with certain things. And, you know, I still enjoyed brewing, so I helped out with brewing a fair amount too. During that time. 00:04:51.944 --> 00:04:57.754 So going back to your home brewing, do you remember the first beer that you brewed? 00:04:57.754 --> 00:06:24.605 I think it was a red ale. It was just a, it was a, just a kit that came with, I think, their home brew kit that my wife got me. And so I brewed that up and kind of got hooked on that. I do remember, it was really funny though because like we just moved in together--this is in Colorado, and I needed shoulder surgery because we went on a rafting trip and my--I was like, try, I got--our boat got turned over in the rapids, and then I tried to swim for it and my arm, like, came out of its socket. So then I had to, I know it was pretty--and it was one of those things where it, uh, tore a labrum, so it was kind of loosey-goosey. So if I like stretched too much on it, it would just like pop out. And I was like, ah! So I eventually got that repaired. And so, my wife kind of helped me with my convalescence with that. But right before I got into surgery, I brewed a beer and put it in the closet. And it just went crazy and kind of, I think over pitched yeast on it, and it kind of just put like, all the clothes in there got like sprayed with yeasty beer, and then she's like, yeah--I was like recovering from soldier shoulder surgery. And she was like, "you clean this up now." So anyways, we had--we had a little rocky start to the home brewing thing, but she eventually-- 00:06:24.605 --> 00:06:26.086 Well, she stuck with you-- 00:06:26.086 --> 00:06:26.721 She did! 00:06:26.721 --> 00:06:27.770 You know, you learn not to over pitch your yeast. 00:06:27.770 --> 00:06:30.996 She got involved in the brewing industry too, so-- 00:06:30.996 --> 00:06:31.722 Oh, really? 00:06:31.722 --> 00:07:10.964 After that, and she was, uh, she was a tour guide at Stone for a bit and then she was the--basically the admin assistant for the brewing department for a few years. And then she left there to go work at Lost Abbey for a bit at the Confessional and, uh, what's it called? The--Cardiff. And was a bartender there for a number of years and really enjoyed it. So she's--she and I are both out of beer now. She's working as a dev test for medical device company in Carlsbad. So. I know. It's like, well, we're actually earning money now, that's crazy. 00:07:10.964 --> 00:07:18.132 Yeah. Well, yeah, you kind of touched on a--on a pretty common theme and you know, you do it for the passion. You do not do it for the income. 00:07:18.132 --> 00:07:19.725 No, no, no. 00:07:19.725 --> 00:07:35.754 You know, you're--I'm--we're watching all these breweries right now closing, and it's this, and, so many of 'em gone up for sale and nobody's buying 'em because they just, you know, they're, "yeah, I'm gonna pour all this money in and not make any, so, you know, can't do that right now. It's just not feasible." 00:07:35.754 --> 00:08:15.000 Yeah. I mean, I feel like probably from like 20--you know, 2006 to about 2018 or so, there was like this, I don't know, I feel like it was more of like a gold rush mentality. I'm sure you have better perspective on it than I do, but being in the industry, it felt like people were just getting into it and thinking that either they would make a pretty decent living on doing it, and they were homebrewers or whatnot, or they were trying to strike it rich somehow and it was felt like that, you know, if you got into this niche and did well, you can make a bunch of money at beer. And I don't think until it's like economies of scale bigger, you don't really make a lot of money with that. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:48.004 Yeah. You don't. Yeah. I mean, the margin is way too small on your individual glass or can of beer to be making a fortune until you go, like you say, the economies of scale. But, uh, that's something that a lot of people went into because they were making beer and all their friends--they had a passion for it. Their friends told them they were making great beer, you really ought to open up a brewery I'll put some money behind you and yet nobody really had a true business plan or an understanding, or especially when 2020 came around an allowance for some kind of crisis. 00:08:48.004 --> 00:09:27.065 Right! Yeah. Like a kind of a, you know, the emergency funds or like a plan for anything like that happening. Yeah. It was, um, I mean, that was how I actually wanted to get into beer in the first place, was that I wanted to like work at a brewery, so I knew what it was like. So, you know, when I asked, you know, friends, family, and investors for, you know, starting my own brewery one day, that I know what I'm talking about. And like, what I was expecting. And then of course, like after the years went on, I was like, I am, there's no way in hell I'm opening a brewery. There's so much work and there's so much capital in terms of all the stainless you have to buy and-- 00:09:27.065 --> 00:09:53.284 The hours you have to put in the headaches. I mean, the amount of legislation and just reporting and--oh yeah. My head swims when I look at all that stuff and just go, you know, and if you go into it because it's an emotional passion, be because it's creative. That is exactly the sort of thing that you don't do, don't excel at, hate, you know, things like that. But you were wise. You got into it and you saw what was going on and you said, oh, wait a minute. 00:09:53.284 --> 00:10:18.835 Yeah. I mean, it was fun and I really enjoyed, and I learned a lot and, you know, did a lot of work, especially on the quality side and learned a lot about what breweries should be doing in terms of quality assurance, quality control, and that I just wasn't seeing a lot of it. And the breweries that succeeded ultimately, like, had really good marketing and really good beer. I mean, that's essentially what it boiled down to. 00:10:18.835 --> 00:10:52.335 Well, and the good beer goes back to the quality control because there are a lot of the smaller breweries that don't really have the capacity to do really thorough quality control. They're doing the best they can, but it shows when the beer, you know, you've got this one beer that's one of maybe your staple beers that you've always got on tap, but it changes from brew cycle to brew cycle, which part of that is the ingredients change, but your quality control is where it's supposed to step in and say, "oh, wait a minute, this isn't what people are going to expect, and what do we do to fix it?" 00:10:52.335 --> 00:11:34.485 Right. Yeah. And that was kind of--and oh, I was the sort of defacto, being at Stone, and then later at Modern Times a little bit and--but also at Belching Beaver--at Stone, I was definitely like, I felt like the quality control person for all the breweries in the area because they would come, it's like, "Hey, Rick, there's this issue. What should I do?" And I'm like, well, you know, sometimes I'd be like, oh yeah, I'll maybe do this and this and see if it works and they're like, "Oh, it worked really good!" "Thanks Rick!" Uh, but then there were other times where I'm like, uh, dump it. I'm sorry, dude. There's not much you can do without that. Yeah. It's, uh, that's kind of SOL. I just, I would not serve that in any sense or form to you know, a customer. 00:11:34.485 --> 00:11:47.575 Yeah. I mean, and that's hard news for somebody, but really you're not doing in favors to say, hey, go ahead and try this and see if you can resurrect it when you just know is not gonna work. That's just, you know, that's not the San Diego spirit-- 00:11:47.575 --> 00:11:47.585 No. 00:11:47.585 --> 00:12:17.105 --San Diego. Everybody's been so collaborative with each other. That's one of the things, when we first started looking at founding the Brewchive®, I started talking to some brewers and they all said, oh, you need to talk to so and so, and you need to talk to so and so. And giving me all these names, of course, of people who I didn't know but it was just like, people really like each other. I would've thought in an industry where you're all trying to cover the same consumer base you'd be at each other's throats and that's not what San Diego does. Very different. 00:12:17.105 --> 00:13:22.085 No. And that collaborative spirit, I feel like is what really elevated a lot of other breweries and even with like collaborations and everything, it seems like that, it's like definitely an exchanging of information, but also just like better practices too. Felt like the breweries, like I know for sure that I went to other breweries, not even in San Diego, but other places and, you know, like Chicago or down south in like Atlanta and all that. And I saw see things, and I was like, oh, this is a really brilliant way of doing this. Oh, I'm definitely, you know, as our--after Mitch left Stone, Joel Grosser was the kind of brewmaster there, and he'd always say like, yeah, if you see like something at another brewery that was like, better practices, even if it's like just like safety related, or better cleanliness or whatever? Yeah. Steal that, steal with pride. He used to say that, and I was like, and he came from Anheuser-Busch, so I'm not sure--(laughter)--I'm not sure if that means anything, but I was like, yeah, steal with pride! 00:13:22.085 --> 00:13:24.004 Yeah. I like that saying. 00:13:24.004 --> 00:13:48.683 But, I mean it was about like, more about like seeing better ways of organizing things, cleaning things. Safety related, which I feel like is like every brewery would be like, yeah, no. like we understood that like a rising tide lifts all boats and everything. And we know that if a brewery was really bad, that would look--people, the average consumer, at least for the most part, we feel like doesn't really, like they lump all the craft beer in one, in like one bucket. 00:13:48.683 --> 00:13:50.485 Yeah. If one's bad, they're all gonna be bad. 00:13:50.485 --> 00:13:51.284 Yeah so that's-- 00:13:51.284 --> 00:13:51.524 That's not the way. 00:13:51.524 --> 00:14:24.000 So that's what we, I think we're trying to avoid and that's why I helped out so many other breweries with their quality control issues, was that, you know, (we) were at another company. They were like, oh, they're having quality control issues, good. So we're good. But then, yeah, I was actually encouraged at places like Stone and Belching Beaver to help out some other breweries with some of their issues as long as it didn't take away from my duties. But if it's like a phone call and be like, yeah, do this, do this, this, this, hang up, it's fine. And they didn't feel like it was like violating an NDA or anything along those lines. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:42.325 Right. Did you find much opportunity with all your, with your working to go visit other breweries? That seems to be a real constant around San Diego is a lot of the brewers, front of house, back of house, whoever they go and they drink at other breweries as well, you know. It's not like, oh, I gotta spend all my money at my own brewery. I'm gonna go visit everybody else's and find stuff I like. 00:14:42.325 --> 00:15:19.485 Well I feel like it was actually the opposite, is that we didn't wanna spend any of our money at our own brewery because they weren't paying us enough, and then we'd give them back our money. So, yeah. I mean, me personally, I would always drink other people's beer. I would only like bring, you know, the free beer I'd get at Stone, just because I'm like, here, have some beer from Stone. And it was always polite whenever you went to other breweries is to bring gifts of your own beer and everything there. And then they would also in turn, give you free beer and like a tour of the place. And you get to see everything and that was, kind of that it was like a cultural exchange, it felt like. 00:15:19.485 --> 00:15:41.884 And you never know, you might wind up working with those people at some point too because there's so much cross pollination and job jumping for whatever reason within the local breweries. But then again, being collaborative and getting along with people, leaves those doors open where if you've always talked bad about another brewery, well, they're never gonna hire you if you did need a job somewhere else. You know, that's just not gonna happen. 00:15:41.884 --> 00:16:42.215 Although I have to have a confession that I did talk badly about Modern Times when, um, because Jacob McKean worked at Stone. And, I just, I--full like, you know, full confession. I was not, I did not enjoy him as a person in the very brief instances we worked, because he was on the marketing side, I was on the brewing side, but then he came in and did like, you know, some videos of like, me working the lab you know, the marketing stuff and he's like, you still write all this down? Like, why don't you use like spreadsheets and everything? I'm like, well, I do. I double enter. So then if I lose one or the other, like if you know, the shared drive fails, then at least I have like the paper copy of it because this is all important stuff in terms of quality control. If I can't look back and see like, oh yeah, this had this bacteria in it then, and then something happens, or, you know, it gets in a fire or lose all the saved data, then I don't have that reference to come back to. 00:16:42.215 --> 00:16:44.187 Or if you're walking around with a laptop and beer gets spilled in it. 00:16:44.187 --> 00:16:54.235 Which happens a lot. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just, I wasn't a fan of him. But then later on, I, uh, you know, when I applied for the job, I was like, oh, okay. I think he's kind of gotten a little bit less snooty. A little bit. 00:16:54.235 --> 00:17:10.755 Well, you know, and you know, when it's put to you in a certain way, sometimes your hackles just raise. I mean, it's like you're attacking the way I do things. And it works for me. So, you know, great. If it doesn't work for you, fine. But, so yeah. First impression sometimes. 00:17:10.755 --> 00:17:20.884 Yeah, I know. But in general though, I enjoyed the Modern Times beers. When the opportunity for a director brewing operations position opened up, that's where I went to it. 00:17:20.884 --> 00:17:25.164 Because that was, that would be a step up from where you were at Stone at the point. Right? 00:17:25.164 --> 00:17:58.865 Yeah. And I didn't really have a good--once I got to be Quality Manager, they kept putting people above me from outside from, usually from Anheuser-Busch. And, I was like, well, I don't really have a good career path. And even my boss at the time was like, when I put in my notice, he's like, "yeah, you know, it's, I don't see--I understand you don't really have like a path for growth here anymore." I'm like, yeah. 'cause you got, you've got where I wanted to go. But anyways. But after that, that's where I went to Modern Times for a little bit. It was only there for about two years before I went to Belching Beaver. 00:17:58.865 --> 00:18:08.345 So well before we leave Stone and jump to Modern Times and your experience there, of course, you know, you with Robbie Chandler--now, who is Robbie? 00:18:08.345 --> 00:19:06.983 So Robbie was the warehouse lead at Stone. He was the kind of the--he was the forklift jockey, the guy unloading the trucks. I think eventually became the warehouse supervisor there. But, you know, he was the guy, just big personality and just a bear of a man, big old beard and everything, and he and I just really got along well together. The funny thing was--is that when they announced that if you wanted to be part of the Spotlight competition you pair off with, you know, whoever you wanted to do it with. And so it came down to it. I was like, I signed up for it and then I was like, who do I want to brew with me? Oh, Robbie said he wanted to brew with me. And so I was like, Hey, Robbie, you want to come? He's like, oh, yeah, no, I'll brew with you. And I didn't realize that he had another partner that was already set up, so he just totally like, ditched that, that group, and then came over to my side and people were angry. It's like, I didn't, I didn't know. I just asked him. 00:19:06.983 --> 00:19:08.684 Yeah, yeah. You didn't poach him! 00:19:08.684 --> 00:19:15.085 I know I didn't, I had no idea. He didn't even tell me that. He was like, no, I'm with you on this one. So. 00:19:15.085 --> 00:19:22.384 Well. If he had been talking to you about brewing with you and that, that was the opportunity, I can kind of see why, but yeah, I can see feelings being being maybe a little bit hurt there too. 00:19:22.384 --> 00:19:34.525 And I mean, and bless Robbie, he's got such a good personality and such a, he was very jovial. He just didn't know as much about the beer brewing process as I did. So, you know, I basically-- 00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:36.204 He, he had not been home brewing then? 00:19:36.204 --> 00:19:52.434 He did a little bit of home brewing, but it wasn't like when we were coming up with a recipe, you know, I was just like, Hey, just feel free to jump in if you want, change anything. But I was thinking like, let's do something different, something kind of off the wall, at least-- 00:19:52.434 --> 00:19:53.674 Very Stone that way. 00:19:53.674 --> 00:20:17.404 Yeah. And let's do a black rye kölsch. And he is like, yeah, that sounds good. I'm like, no notes or anything? He's like, no, let's just do it. And I was like, okay. All right. So I guess we're doing a black rye kölsch. Sure. And we spent most of the other time talking about what we'd name it, and we were both fans of SNL and the sprockets skit that Mike Myers was on when he was on SNL. 00:20:17.404 --> 00:20:18.525 Boy, I don't even remember that one. 00:20:18.525 --> 00:20:23.684 Uh, it was like, um, the German ones. He's like, "Velcome to Shprockets, My name is Dieter," you know. 00:20:23.684 --> 00:20:24.674 Oh, okay. The Dieters. 00:20:24.674 --> 00:20:44.884 Yeah. The, yeah. And he is like, yeah, "Vould you like to touch my monkey?" You know, stuff like that. And I guess that's what with my German last name, he (was) always like, um, he's like, no, Rick, I do not to touch your monkey. But anyways, we were all goofing around and kind of riffing off each other and doing these silly little bits, but that's what we wanted to call it Sprocketbier. 00:20:44.884 --> 00:21:07.065 Okay. Okay. Well then that explains the name. I'll have to go back. And probably on YouTube there's some of those old, and rewatch those 'cause, it's been, it's been so, so long. So when you were designing that beer, did you have test batches that you made? How much time did you have to prepare for the competition and it-- 00:21:07.065 --> 00:21:21.204 We made one test batch before we brewed the kind of scaled up one on the small system at Stone. So I did, you know, we did that at Robbie's house 'cause he had a better house for that, to kind of brew on there. So we just did once. And-- 00:21:21.204 --> 00:21:24.355 Your wife probably wasn't real happy about you maybe having beer in the closet again. 00:21:24.355 --> 00:22:22.025 Well, she, uh, she was fine with it after that. We'd have better areas to store things at that point. But, yeah. But we brewed one batch of it, and it came out pretty well. We made--I made some adjustments to the amount of Carafa malt, which is like, that de-bittered black malt. We'd add to it. But after that, we just kind of scaled it up to the small system and brewed it. And yeah. It was Robbie and I kind of on there with the--under the supervision of Steve Gonzalez, who was the small batch manager. I think he still is at Stone, at this point. But, uh, yeah, no, we brewed that. And really, I was hoping to do well, like come in like the top three, but I really didn't expect to win on that. Well 'cause everyone else was like doing IPAs, like fun or other kinds of like, fun kind of Belgian-style beers. And I wasn't really expecting to actually do anything too revolutionary with it. 00:22:22.025 --> 00:22:23.724 Who were the judges, do you know? 00:22:23.724 --> 00:22:27.904 Yeah, it was Greg, Steve and Mitch. Yeah. So. 00:22:27.904 --> 00:22:28.859 The highest level. 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:29.815 Highest level. Yeah. It was-- 00:22:29.815 --> 00:22:32.914 There was nobody to go to if you wanted to contest the results. 00:22:32.914 --> 00:23:54.924 Well, I mean the whole concept of the Spotlight series came about from sort of the amount of unhappiness of the brewers of not having ways of being creative. So, I think it was in 2013 or 2012 or 2013, they did like the first employee survey. And, they did like a kind of a presentation on that and for everyone, and kind of understood that like there was a lot of unhappy people working at Stone at the time . And, the brewers more specifically were very unhappy with the lack of creative control that they had, which is, I mean, looking back at it, I'm like, it's, you know--it wasn't necessary. I don't know, like it was, we had a lot of really talented brewers. Very, you know, very talented brewers. And I think that they thought working at Stone that they'd get a chance to do a lot more of the creative stuff. And then they did like the creative casks thing where they would like pull beer off into a cask, do cask conditioning and add different ingredients to the base of our core lineup of beers. And that was fun. But then they also wanted to make something that could potentially do well for the company in a national release. And that's where the Spotlight series kind of came in. 00:23:54.924 --> 00:24:06.055 Yeah. There's that tension between personal creativity, what's gonna be marketable, and how many people wanna participate, and how sustainable a program like that actually is. 00:24:06.055 --> 00:24:16.325 Right. And I think that, you know, I'm sure if they reflected on it, they would've gone with a much smaller batch, and-- 00:24:16.325 --> 00:24:17.884 Well, how big was the batch? 00:24:17.884 --> 00:24:41.590 Um, so, I think it was three fermenters for it, which is pretty good for nationwide release at the time, based on the distribution network. So that was, and each batch was about 350 barrels after filtration. So 350, so 700 and about just about a thousand. 00:24:41.590 --> 00:24:42.117 Yeah, Over thousand barrels or more. 00:24:42.117 --> 00:24:44.799 Yeah. And so, yeah, they, that's what they did. Of course-- 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.581 That's big. 00:24:45.581 --> 00:25:24.355 Next year was only two fermenters, and then the year after that was only one fermenter as far as from what I remember. But they wanted to, I think, to keep doing a little bit of that in case like something, you know, like a hit happened. Ballast Point, that was the reference of it 'cause Ballast Point had their Homebrew Mart. And they would brew, you know, a few beers and I mean, obviously that's where Sculpin came from. That's where some of their other hits, uh, Indra Kunindra. That weird curry beer that they made that actually did pretty well came from that system. So Stone wanted something similar, I think as like a sort of incubator for interesting, you know, a potential beer that could do well for them. 00:25:24.355 --> 00:25:50.674 Yeah. 'cause I'm thinking, I'm not clear on the date on this, but the American Homebrew Association competition, that Stone sponsored, and then they would take the winning beer and, you know, it's like Chris Banker Xocoveza. Um, Ken, now his name escapes me right this minute. I can see his face in my head! But, you know, uh, Ken did the, um, he always wears Hawaiian shirts, big guy with a beard. 00:25:50.674 --> 00:25:51.815 Oh! Um-- 00:25:51.815 --> 00:25:53.743 I'm just blanking on his name and-- 00:25:53.743 --> 00:25:56.375 Yeah. The coconut porter? 00:25:56.375 --> 00:25:58.265 Yeah. So he did that. And, uh-- 00:25:58.265 --> 00:25:59.835 Yeah, I know you exactly what you're talking about. 00:25:59.835 --> 00:26:06.334 Yeah. And so Mo-J's come out of that, you know, so there've been beers that have come out and like Xocoveza now is a staple. 00:26:06.334 --> 00:26:06.875 It is. Yeah. 00:26:06.875 --> 00:26:16.704 I mean, that really, that went over very well. But I'm not sure when those beers started as opposed to the Spotlight series. 00:26:16.704 --> 00:26:41.944 Yeah. So, the Homebrewer competition stuff was at the same time. I mean, I started in 2010 and we did the first, I think the first of the Homebrew was Ken's beer. And that was the year before, I think in 2009. And then we did all those collaboration series as well. with like Jolly Pumpkin and Firestone and all those other ones. So-- 00:26:41.944 --> 00:26:41.954 Yeah, Dogfish Head-- 00:26:41.954 --> 00:26:43.243 There was always these-- 00:26:43.243 --> 00:26:47.484 There was, I think, was it Dogfish Head, Stone and, you know-- 00:26:47.484 --> 00:26:48.412 Victory. 00:26:48.412 --> 00:26:51.000 They would do like a triangle--Victory. They would do triangle along the, along the bottle. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.145 That was the Saison du BUFF. 00:26:54.145 --> 00:27:06.724 Each year the position of the breweries would switch around. I mean, 'cause I've got a lot of those bottles from Greg and going, what's the difference between these two bottles? Oh, wait a minute. Stone's on the top now Dogfish Head's at the top now at the apex. 00:27:06.724 --> 00:27:11.164 Yeah. Saison du BUFF. That was kind of one of Greg's fun collaborations with-- 00:27:11.164 --> 00:27:13.365 Yeah. Then the wOOtstout. 00:27:13.365 --> 00:27:33.365 wOOtstout. That was fun. I got to meet Wil Wheaton because he was a homebrew nerd at the time. He's now sober. But, he came in in the lab and was like nerding out. And I told him, and he actually brought some of his homebrew. And then I ran it through our alkalizer, which measures alcohol content so I could tell him what his alcohol and everything was. 00:27:33.365 --> 00:27:33.993 Oh, very good! 00:27:33.993 --> 00:27:35.483 Yeah. It was a lot of fun. 00:27:35.483 --> 00:27:40.085 Yeah, I didn't understand how Wil Wheaton had gotten into that, but, you know, if he homebrewed, then yeah. That would-- 00:27:40.085 --> 00:27:46.285 Yeah. I think it was he homebrewed and kind of, you know, I think probably got approached by Greg or something like that to make-- 00:27:46.285 --> 00:27:47.000 Or he approached Greg at a festival who knows. 00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:21.325 Or something. I forgot what it was, but yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was a--that was a real fun part of the process. Like that was what kind of kept me going on, was meeting these really cool people, not only from like Wil Wheaton, all them, but from other breweries as well. On these collaborations, kind of like, just talking shop about how they did things differently, how we did things differently. You know, I was--I've always been kind of that person that wants to expand my horizons or best practices. I'm like, oh yeah, that makes total sense! Why aren't we doing that? You know? 00:28:21.325 --> 00:28:23.464 Yeah. Steal with pride! 00:28:23.464 --> 00:28:24.891 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. 00:28:24.891 --> 00:28:32.460 But yeah. Yeah. I mean, people should always be learning in my book, but, oh, yeah--Uh, so, Spröcketbier won first-- 00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.983 Yeah. It did, 00:28:34.983 --> 00:28:44.355 And then you brewed over a thousand barrels of it. And, you know, that's a lot of gallons of beer. So, you need to promote that! 00:28:44.355 --> 00:29:16.884 Well, yeah. And I, and that was, uh, there was--actually you can look on YouTube. We actually did some little videos. At least the marketing team did. Tyler Graham was the I think, head--no, I don't think he was head of marketing, but he was kind of the head videographer and creative presence there. He did a really good job with us. Actually, one of the fun things that we ended up doing was actually being very involved with the making of the label. 00:29:16.884 --> 00:29:19.365 I was gonna ask, how was the label designed? 00:29:19.365 --> 00:29:43.404 Yeah, actually, I'll show you. It was, um, for the--so the Monarose, who was actually a wife of one of the brewers came in and we wanted to do like, homages to the other brewers there. So we had this whole entire like, side of the label here. And all these have like little, I guess homages or-- 00:29:43.404 --> 00:29:44.454 References of some sort-- 00:29:44.454 --> 00:29:45.714 References to people who worked at Stone. 00:29:45.714 --> 00:29:49.484 Yeah 'cause there's a rooster. There's a couple of profiles. Well. 00:29:49.484 --> 00:29:50.994 Yeah. Well, that's us. Yeah. 00:29:50.994 --> 00:29:53.404 Okay. Because I was gonna, I'm not quite sure who that-- 00:29:53.404 --> 00:29:55.065 That's Robbie. That's, that's me. 00:29:55.065 --> 00:29:55.505 Okay. 00:29:55.505 --> 00:29:56.565 And then, so. 00:29:56.565 --> 00:29:59.845 Powell, and it looks like a little space--spaceman helmet or something? 00:29:59.845 --> 00:30:27.000 So one of the brewers we had, his name was, well, his nickname was Rooster and he's actually brewing down in Mexico right now. But he would just, like, we called him Rooster because he would just be like, "what's up Rooster?" And like, and he would just caw at us. So we wanted to have Rooster there. One of the other brewers, I don't know, we almost considered him kind of like our mascot 'cause he really--I love the guy. Robskie 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.404 That's the letter bit. 00:30:28.404 --> 00:30:28.785 Yeah. 00:30:28.785 --> 00:30:29.317 The "S." 00:30:29.317 --> 00:30:39.657 He'd always just like, like a finger up and be like, "Hey, money, how's it going money?" And he had like a higher-pitch voice. And so we would--so that's a reference to him. And then-- 00:30:39.657 --> 00:30:41.745 Pow is? 00:30:41.745 --> 00:31:17.164 Is for, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm, uh, it's Cecil. Cecil. He's still there. He just, he was just like, pow! Because he'd always like make it like he's gonna, you know, punch you in the dick. And so he, that's where we got that from. And then this is a reference to Steve Via, who was another brewer there. And we used to draw these, like, he used to draw these stupid little faces, 'cause that's what he kinda looked like. And he'd draw these stupid little faces called, we called 'em Steve Heads, on like the whiteboards everywhere. 00:31:17.164 --> 00:31:19.005 Steve was here. 00:31:19.005 --> 00:31:28.525 Yeah. And then, we had a little tribute to the brewer that, uh, Matt, who lost his life at Stone on the forklift accident. 00:31:28.525 --> 00:31:30.194 Oh yeah. That's the hand with the finger pointing up. 00:31:30.194 --> 00:32:05.285 Yeah. With that, with the same tattoo that we, a bunch of us ended up getting on the finger right there. Because he, it was kind of a jab at him too in a playful way, is that he recently got a--he was very religious and had some Bible quotes tattooed on his bicep. But he was like, he over-ellipseed. And we'd make him fun of him for that. It's like, that's permanent, you know, on there? So then, but that's what we all ended up getting. 'cause he, instead of just doing the dot, dot dot, he'd do dot space, dot dot and so that's what we ended up doing for that. 00:32:05.285 --> 00:32:08.515 Well that's really, really sweet that he's memorialized there. 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:50.525 Well, and then the burning roses was actually his submission. He actually ended up being able to, um, we, oh--so Chris Ketchum down at Liberty Station, he wasn't able to brew it 'cause he passed away before he was able to brew it on the system. But they made a bigger batch of this and like another couple, like three fermenters full to honor Matt Courtright for that. So that was actually his submission for the Spotlight series. And so he and I--I think it was Jason was his brewing partner on there, but yeah. So they brewed this and it was, it's super tasty. It's really good stuff. 00:32:50.525 --> 00:33:01.954 No, and that's very, very touching because I knew somebody had lost their life on the work floor, but hadn't really delved into who it was or what had happened or anything. 00:33:01.954 --> 00:34:20.525 Yeah, it was, you know, it was that--it was 2013 and it was that time at Stone where we were growing really rapidly and there was where the bottling line used to be, they moved that down to the new packaging hall that was just built. And then they set up a--it was just an empty area there. So it wasn't really, people didn't really forklift around that area very often. So they weren't really aware of where the pillars were. The support pillars. Because there was equipment in the way during that time, but it was a good, convenient storage area until we actually ended up filling it up more with fer--more fermenters. And he wasn't-- you know, looking back on it, at the time it felt like it was a result of Stone growing too fast, not caring about the employees, et cetera, et cetera. But really looking back on it, it was a lot of unfortunately bad decisions made by Matt. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt. There were some drug use implications. I'm not exactly sure if that was the case or not, but I mean, regardless of what he was doing, it was super tragic and he ended up, pop--you know, transporting a chemical drum, turned too fast with his forks up, which is still a bad idea. 00:34:20.525 --> 00:34:22.405 Oh, that's gonna throw your balance off. Yeah. 00:34:22.405 --> 00:35:33.764 He hit the pillar, tumbled over. He tried to jump out. That was also a no-no. So there, like, there was a series of mistakes that happened during that point that if he would've done one of those things, it would've, at least he might--he would've gotten hurt but he wouldn't have died. And, so it was really unfortunate, but we all were devastated. There was so much good talent there that ended up leaving over the next year and a half pretty quickly. I mean, that was other reason why the Spotlight series was kind of, you know, I think it was gonna dwindle down pretty quick because there was just a lack of involvement there. But I mean, we, the brewers that were involved in the Spotlight series, one was Hollie (Stephenson), she ended up being the brewmaster at the new Guinness facility in Maryland. Left to do that. Chris Baker, he ended up being the brewmaster at Mother Earth. Casey (Harris), he's now the co-founder and brewmaster at Topa Topa up in Ventura area. I mean, there was so many really awesome brewers that went on to do better at the brewing industry and just great things. Yeah. And it was just hard to lose all those folks. But losing somebody like that at work, I mean, that's-- 00:35:33.764 --> 00:35:34.795 That's very hard. 00:35:34.795 --> 00:36:02.164 Yeah. It's it at like Modern Times and, uh, Belching Beaver, after I left to work for those places, I always harped on safety as a huge thing because I saw what it did. When you, you know, someone gets seriously hurt or loses their life at the place, it just destroys morale. And I mean, really from some of the people that I still talk to at Stone, it really didn't recover until very recently. And that was only because I think Sapporo bought them and kind of changed-- 00:36:02.164 --> 00:36:06.204 There was much going on. It's kind of like, you know, you--you're looking forward. 00:36:06.204 --> 00:36:07.364 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00:36:07.364 --> 00:36:13.222 Yeah. But you still wanna remember Matt. That's, that's just very, very important. But yeah. 00:36:13.222 --> 00:36:14.110 Yeah! 00:36:14.110 --> 00:36:25.025 That's Wow. That, yeah, people don't think about what goes on behind the taps. You know, that back of house stuff, the brewery operations are--things can happen. 00:36:25.025 --> 00:36:40.275 Oh yeah. No, it's dangerous back there, especially in big operations. That's why it costs so much to run a big brewery, is the automation that needs to get involved with that. Because you can't do all this just with the, your, you know, strength of your back in terms of labor. You gotta, you know-- 00:36:40.275 --> 00:37:23.715 Well, I have said, because I helped brew the last batch at Chuckalek with Sam (Samantha) Olson. It was a Pink Boots blend, and I'm a "pink booter," so I went out to help Sam and of course it was horribly hot that day and their little tiny operation. And I was going, it's hot, it's heavy, it's sticky, it's awful. I--this is a young person's job. My toes are near flame, I don't like this. But at least you know it, again, it gave me that view into the brewing process. So I had more appreciation for what brewers actually do. But I went, this is definitely a young person's occupation. And not forever because boy, your back is gonna give out eventually. I don't care how much automation you have to help you, there's still a lot that is just simply manual labor. 00:37:23.715 --> 00:38:20.704 Yeah. I mean, I--actually it was interesting. My wife is now working in the medical device industry. But one of the--she actually got to observe a surgery because her company does back surgery equipment and like procedural stuff and everything. And one of the people that was there was someone who worked in the warehouse most of their life at Wyeast who you know, they make the yeast that a whole bunch of breweries use and everything. And yeah it's just his spine was messed up from all the work that he was doing, from that. And I've just seen, so like the--how this amount of manual labor really does wear someone down. You can see somebody, or like, wow, that person has to be like 50 years-old and ends up they're like just coming out of their thirties. You're just like, ooh. That's a lot. That's why I was glad to where I was kind of doing stuff in the lab most of the time. If I wasn't jockeying a desk. So, yeah. 00:38:20.704 --> 00:38:39.105 Now, before I asked you a qu--I need to make a note to myself here about, uh, hopefully that word will remind me what I want to ask you, but I still wanna ask, because you said that after the beer was bottled, you've explained the labeling. You went on a promotional tour. 00:38:39.105 --> 00:39:53.344 Yes. Yeah. That was the real fun part was like over the course of about two months, like we'd go to a location for like a weekend or whatever and then fly back and then do that about three or four times. And, yeah, we went to try to hit all the major hubs. So we did like obviously a promotional thing here. Or at Liberty Station and also at Escondido. Went to Seattle, Atlanta, Cleveland and Philadelphia. From all these places. And so we'd made up with the Air District Sales Manager there, and they would take us where they would want us to, you know, sometimes it was a bottle shop, sometimes there was like a, you know, event happening or whatnot. And that was really super fun. Especially at that time. Because you know, Stone paid for everything, so it was like, okay, it was, you know, making as little as we did at the time, it was nice to go on kind of an all expense, essentially paid tour of these like, you know, places and either have the sales reps or Mitch's credit card kind of pay for everything. So it was--it was a lot of fun. Like Robbie and I got into some really good places, met some really good people and-- 00:39:53.344 --> 00:39:56.525 Did you have to spend a lot of time explaining the beer? 00:39:56.525 --> 00:40:55.954 A little bit. I mean, like, between you and me and the recording, if you tasted a black rye kölsch, and you're familiar with beer styles, you're like, wow, that tastes exactly like a Schwarzbier. It is a Schwarzbier, basically. It's, uh, we wanna make something that's low alcohol, or lower alcohol. I think it was like five point a half percent. Yeah. 5.4%. And so it was something that we could probably drink a lot of during the sales tour and not get too schnockered during that time, and, but yeah, no, we--we did a lot of explaining of the beer. We did, you know, to--we wanted to make it a little bit more unique with using kölsch yeast instead of like a lager yeast. Because I don't thi--at that time, they would've, uh, I think Mitch would've been like, we're using ale yeast for this because it's gonna, we don't want it to sit in a month in, you know, in these tanks. So using the kölsch yeast, that's why I picked kölsch because it turned around much quicker. 00:40:55.954 --> 00:40:57.905 Yeah. Yeah. 00:40:57.905 --> 00:41:13.000 And I like rye. Rye is like one of my favorite grains, so. And I like, kind of like the idea of like using Carafa malt, which was originally designed to use in Schwarzbiers in Germany as a de-bittered black malt so you don't get a lot of the flavor of the malt, of the black malt, but you get the color. 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.945 Right. Okay. 00:41:15.945 --> 00:41:16.644 So, yeah. 00:41:16.644 --> 00:41:18.585 Very interesting. 00:41:18.585 --> 00:41:33.275 Yeah. So we did all that and journeyed around the place and did--we had a, it was a place in Seattle where we did--we chugged boots of this beer. It was like a race and so-- 00:41:33.275 --> 00:41:34.684 Good it was 5.4%! 00:41:34.684 --> 00:42:08.885 Yeah, I know. I was getting kind of, I was definitely getting a little tired of all that after, at the time. But I mean, I wasn't. The traveling part was a lot of fun, especially since they always took the--to their best accounts and their--they were just geeking out that they had brewers there to kind of help like promote it. And people came up and asked us a bunch of really good questions about the process and you know, what--how everything is, how we're doing, you know? And what do you do for all this? How, how does this work on a scaled up process, all the geeky homebrewer questions that come our way. 00:42:08.885 --> 00:42:12.992 Yeah. Well, and it also, you know, it humanizes Stone. I mean-- 00:42:12.992 --> 00:42:13.335 Oh yeah. 00:42:13.335 --> 00:42:35.795 Stone has become such so mythic, you know, with the gargoyle and everything else. That to actually have brewers there and real people there from Stone representing Stone. It's not that big mega monolith that the bigger beer brands are, that you don't know who those people are, and they--they're so distanced from the brewing itself that you don't feel the connection. 00:42:35.795 --> 00:43:00.281 Well, and to kind of expand on that, at the time, Greg was very much the face of Stone. And people--and Greg had a kind of polarizing personality, still does, I think. But when you get to talk to with him one-on-one, he is like a super nice guy. Little bit awkward, you know, on that interpersonal basis, but when you get him in front of a camera or in front of a crowd, he turns into the "arrogant bastard" essentially the, you know--we joked around that it was like the Greg-face effect, back in the early days. 00:43:00.281 --> 00:43:16.125 I've seen a reference somewhere to Greg-face. I don't remember where it was-- 00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:54.195 He just had like a open mouth, like ahhhhhhhhh, and that was like his, you know, he's angry about, you know--was it, he's angry about making sure people have good beer or something like that. I don't know. It was marketing around him and I don't think it really landed as much as he was hoping it would land. But, I think part of the pro--but I think that was part of it was when you got the brewers out there, we're just, you know, normal people making beer and really enjoying it. And I think the crowd and people really enjoyed, like actually seeing that there was actually normal people working there. We're not all just like raging maniacs. 00:43:54.195 --> 00:44:10.605 Well, and that's the whole thing about craft beer is it's, you know, there are people and personalities behind it as opposed to anonymous, everything's automated production, so people who want that human interaction, that human touch or, you know, craft beer is really-- 00:44:10.605 --> 00:45:34.394 Literal blood, sweat, and tears going into this beer. I've seen it. It grossed me out, but I've seen it. No, it's, um--but yeah, no, it was--I think that was a big part and I think that's why like the cask events we did at the Escondido restaurant location and also at Liberty Station, the wOOt Fest. And when we released it during Comic-Con and we would make different casks and different beers with like, celebrities or like the minor ce--like kind of like geeky celebrities. That was fun and people I think really enjoyed seeing the brewers kind of working together with that instead of just being like you're saying against like a faceless monolith of a company, there was actually real people that work in this. You know, the ones working actually, like destroying our bodies to get beer to you. You know, and it's--that's a big part of it. I mean, that's why we were really focused on safety pretty hardcore, obviously after Matt's passing because of everything. And it was, uh, it was a big, you know, it was a big wake-up call for I think craft beer in San Diego in general because there was so many people that either knew Matt or knew about him. And then there was obviously like kind of self-reflecting of like, whoa, what if somebody died at our brewery? I mean, that was--that'd be devastating. And they saw that, so. 00:45:34.394 --> 00:45:41.580 Yeah. And that's part of the maturing of the industry is accepting that things aren't always going to stay the same and bad things can happen. 00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:42.686 A hundred percent. 00:45:42.686 --> 00:45:45.684 And it could happen to you just as easily as anybody else. 00:45:45.684 --> 00:46:22.045 Yeah. And like COVID was a big, you know, that was a huge, uh--I think the way I like to, at least I've thought about it and the way that it kind of looked to me was an accelerating event, meaning that it kind of accelerated the, you know, whether a brewery was gonna do well or--Like, you know, I think unfortunately a bad example, or a good, bad example would be Iron Fist. Iron Fist was kind of trailing off there for a bit, but after COVID it was just pretty much done. You know, it kind of accelerated that. I think if COVID didn't happen, they would've limped along for a couple more years, maybe. But I feel like-- 00:46:22.045 --> 00:46:22.605 Hard to say. 00:46:22.605 --> 00:46:25.804 Yeah. I feel like COVID kind of accelerated that. 00:46:25.804 --> 00:47:08.434 I--well, I think it did for a number of breweries, but then we also had a whole bunch of breweries that were in process. They would already, you know, bought--things were already ordered and stuff like that. So it was, well, either we dump everything we've done so far and just take this massive loss--or hope, because who knew how long COVID was going to last, you know, people took the gamble and unfortunately now those gambles and the loans and everything else, they're starting to catch up with everybody. So we're seeing this horrible downturn right now, which just breaks my heart. Every day it seems like there's somebody else. I'm just like, no, not another one! But, you know, if you prepared properly or through the luck of the draw, whatever, some are gonna make it and some aren't, unfortunately. 00:47:08.434 --> 00:47:08.445 Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:08.445 --> 00:47:30.804 So again, the maturing of our industry locally. And I think that if we looked at other regions, we'd probably see a lot of the same thing. Areas that became hotbeds of brewing before we did in California or whatever, we'd see that they've gone through the same sort of cycle, so it's not just us, so that it just, we're here. So it really hits us hard. 00:47:30.804 --> 00:47:42.445 Well, yeah. And, San Diego is such a tight-knit brewing community too. It's like, you know, you hear about, it's like, oh, did you hear that? Rouleur closed. Did you hear about this? And you're like, oh, yeah, I met all those guys. I know them. 00:47:42.445 --> 00:47:57.635 Yeah. I went to Rouleur's last day and, you know, Tomme Arthur was there, Paul Sangster was there, Chris Banker was there. I was seeing all these people that, you know, haven't seen 'em recently, for whatever reason. And it was kind of like, well, it's great to have an old home week, but it's a terrible reason to have an old home week. 00:47:57.635 --> 00:47:59.804 Right. I know. 00:47:59.804 --> 00:48:22.034 So, yeah. But we--we'll pick up and move on, I guess. So speaking of moving on, the little note I made to myself was, when I've been over at Stone, I have been stunned by the speed at which everything's bottled. And I understand that stuff is pulled off the line like every five minutes and checked for quality control? 00:48:22.034 --> 00:48:23.744 Mm-hmm. 00:48:23.744 --> 00:48:29.125 How do you manage it at that speed? I mean, that was just stunning to me. 00:48:29.125 --> 00:48:54.885 Um, I mean, I've seen it happen where there's like times where I went to like, on a tour of the Budweiser facility up in Van Nuys. And they run about twice as fast, if not three times as fast as what Stone does. It--there was a guy on the line, just like looking around, like, oh, looks at the time, says it's about time for collecting a sample. And you just (makes a "tchew" sound) and it just, it's like just second nature to them. He doesn't even do that. 00:48:54.885 --> 00:49:06.844 But then you've still gotta run it through the process. And what if it's bad? What if you do have to pull it? How do you find it? In all that stuff that's already, you know, all this other stuff's gone through in the time it took you to do the quality check. 00:49:06.844 --> 00:51:35.465 Well, I think that's the thing about most beer issues, at least from, like non-sour beers. Like non-barrel-aged sour beers is that if there is an issue, then that's why you drew a lot of--you try to find the quality issue earlier on when it's less expensive to do something about it. So, like with the ingredients, try to do as best as you can as a brewery, depending on, as like how big you are. You know, like friability of malt, you're looking at the quality of the water, making sure there's no chlorine in there. You know, hops themselves, you do sniff tests, and you make sure that's stored well. So once it goes through the process, then at certain points it'd be like, well, if the ingredient's bad, we're just not gonna brew it. Which is, you know, it sucks, but at least we're not gonna like, spend that much money. If we already bought the ingredients, that's one thing. But as soon as you start investing time and labor into it, then it gets more and more expensive. So hopefully by the time you actually put it into a bottle, you know exactly what the quality is gonna be on there. But you still gotta do those checks as due diligence. So the thing about most beer is that if there is an issue with the beer itself, it's as a result--it's like, it's gonna be a systemic issue. Like, with that batch, and not necessarily with like these, like three boxes over here. That you have to, it's like a needle in a haystack, what to call it. And so that's why you try to take samples during fermentation, do taste tests before you send it to the filtration or what, centrifuge, whatever you end up doing with the finishing process of the beer. And then once it's in the bright tank, you also take samples before it's packaged. Uh, for taste testing and approval. And that's kind of the final go/no go. And then you taste it after it gets bottled or canned as well, too, but at that point it's pretty much on a truck that's heading to distribution. So it's a lot more involvement in terms of like doing a recall. If there's an issue with that. So typically if it's a off flavor issue you catch it early enough. Usually it's right after fermentation because that's where most of the off flavor issues may occur. If it's during the pr--and then you take samples, at least on our size, we took microbiological samples, like samples of it, plated it, see what grew. Made sure it wasn't a beer-spoiling organism or anything there. 00:51:35.465 --> 00:51:38.835 How long does it generally take for something like that to develop? 00:51:38.835 --> 00:51:40.324 Well, so that's, that's a-- 00:51:40.324 --> 00:51:43.034 Coming from a non-scientist person, I have no idea. 00:51:43.034 --> 00:53:59.635 Well, no, it is actually kind of complicated because when you take--so I take a sample from, you know, let's say a bright tank. It's about ready to be packaged. I grow it, and look at it and there's some concerning cells that grow up there. It looks like there might be lactic acid producing bacteria on there like lactobacillus or pediococcus. That's immediately sends things, red flags up in my head. So then I inform, you know, my bosses to say like, Hey, I'd like to put a hold on this and do maybe some forced aging to see if it'll actually express itself. Sometimes you see these organisms and they grow on the plate, but they might not necessarily grow in the beer. Um, and with like a lot of--and that's where like a, I think a lot of breweries went hard on IPAs is that IPAs have a lot of hops in them, they're usually a little bit higher in alcohol, which would inhibit growth of bacteria like that if their process wasn't as clean. If you're making lagers, that's a lot harder because it's lower alcohol, it's lower bitterness, IBUs, which it also inhibits growth and bacterial growth. And so if it was like a lager that I found this in, I'd be like, yeah, we're not selling this. But if it was an IPA, I'd probably put a couple, like, you know, I get like--package a few of them put into our incubator for like a day or two and see if anything produces. And, it depends on the beer, but if it, usually, if you don't see anything growing more, or if after you plate it, you don't see any more colony forming units in there, you could pretty much say that it's not gonna grow in it. But that's typically like the bigger issue. And especially we didn't do any sort of, uh, what's it called? Uh, pasteurization at the time, too. That's actually a bigger issue for all the non-alcoholic beers we're making up now, is the pasteurization part of the process. That's the kind of the expense limiting step for it at this point. But, um, but yeah, so that--it might take a day or two, it might take a couple weeks. There's some times where it kind of like caught me sitting up at the time where I released a beer knowing that this isn't--feeling pretty confident it's not gonna grow in it. But then I'm like, well, what happens like six months from now or whatever? 00:53:59.635 --> 00:54:05.744 Yeah. When its sitting on a shelf in a store, especially if they, they're not rotating their stock properly. 00:54:05.744 --> 00:54:08.914 Or keeping at room temperature. Exactly. Exactly. 00:54:08.914 --> 00:54:12.925 Yeah. No, that sort of thing always alarms me. 00:54:12.925 --> 00:54:31.875 Oh yeah. No, it's--that's what keeps you up at night is being a quality manager, is that like, you know, there's that give and take. Like the job of the quality manager is to assess and inform your management about the risk. So, and then see how we can mitigate that risk. And so for-- 00:54:31.875 --> 00:54:36.925 But it's not really your final call. It's gonna be higher ups that are gonna say, we're gonna pull this. 00:54:36.925 --> 00:55:07.565 And it should be. because I'm the one informing them of what the risks are. It's like--and if there's something that's like super high risk, like in terms of like something they want to do, I'd be like, no. Absolutely not. Like I, when I was at Belching Beaver, they kept wanting to do a Radler and without pasteurization and I'm like, absolutely not. Because you are adding sugar to it. Because like sugar and grapefruit juice or sugar and lemon juice. Whatever, which way you go. And if there's anything growing in there, it's going to grow a lot more you know? 00:55:07.565 --> 00:55:09.045 Right. Something's gonna explode. 00:55:09.045 --> 00:55:12.025 And I don't want that. I do not want that. 00:55:12.025 --> 00:55:17.275 No, that's your name on the line plus the company and everything else. 00:55:17.275 --> 00:55:21.224 They called me a spoil sport and I'm like, good! I am. That's my job. 00:55:21.224 --> 00:55:22.724 That's exactly right. 00:55:22.724 --> 00:55:37.385 Like, there's times where I'm like, well, this plate might not grow or might not, but I'm informing you about the risk. I'm, you know, whatever direction you want to go. I'll be happy with. But then there's other ones where I'm like, absolutely not. No, I'm not gonna have my name attached to this. 00:55:37.385 --> 00:55:55.045 Yeah. No, good for you. Stand up for it. So, um, when you went to Modern Times then, in 2017 as Director of Brewing Operations, this meant you were not doing quality control anymore? Or how much interaction did you have with the QC people there? 00:55:55.045 --> 00:56:45.965 I had a lot of interaction. I mean, that was my background. So, you know, I really wanted to make sure that we focused on the QC aspect of it and any sort of money we could invest to help out with that. Modern Times did a lot of barrel-aged beers. And so Morgan Tenwick, who was the QC manager at the time, she was kind of struggling pretty hard with that. So I ended up purchasing more kits and we kind of worked with her on how to do better barrel testing. So when I was discussing before about how, like usually if it's a tank of beers, it's gonna be bad, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna be bad. But with like barrel-aged beers and sour beers, anything you put into a barrel, you have these discreet, like mini vessels, right? And you have to test pretty much all of them. 00:56:45.965 --> 00:56:50.844 Yeah. It's a much more uncontrolled environment because a barrel is wood. It's not-- 00:56:50.844 --> 00:57:17.885 It breathes. It has stuff in it. Yeah. So then that's why you have to pretty much do micro-testing on every single barrel that's going into a batch. That way if you find something in one barrel, you can leave that out of the blend. And so that's what we ended up doing for the barrel-aging program at Stone, after we kind of got hit on a few of the like big infections that came out of it. You know, we--because if as soon as you dump that infected barrel into the blend its-- 00:57:17.885 --> 00:57:18.405 Oh yeah. The whole thing's gone. 00:57:18.405 --> 00:57:31.000 Exactly. So that's what we ended up doing there. So I helped out with that a lot. Because that was like low volume, but high margin stuff for us. So we wanted to do that. And then-- 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.596 And, Modern Times's reputation was really, is really reliant on a lot of that barrel-aged stuff. 00:57:35.596 --> 00:57:35.606 It's huge. 00:57:35.606 --> 00:57:45.105 I have several friends that are members and they just, you know, when the barrel-aged, you know, some of 'em have got massive cellars of the Modern Times barrel-aged. 00:57:45.105 --> 00:58:55.525 Oh, it's huge. Yeah. And it was really good too. And so that was one of our big priorities. The other beers, like, I mean, that was pretty much we could handle like the normal production stuff with our IPAs and whatnot. Um, the, yeah. My biggest adjustment was like actually caring about the budget. I mean, I always cared about the budget when I was on the quality side. But it was like, how do I, you know, they gave me this money. How do I spend that? What new equipment do I need? What--do I need to hire somebody else? Stuff like that. Instead of being like, okay, here's the budget. How do I deal it out to like, quality? How do I deal it to brewing and packaging? And so that was a big adjustment for me. And then of course, all the other things that happened during that time, that's when Modern Times is blowing up. They bought the Commons Brewery up in Portland. And so I had to go up there to help set them up. And you know, I think, Tim (Kamolz) and Andrew (Schwartz) did a lot of that work, and Matt (Walsh), who moved up there to take over that position as a brewer up there. And so I do a lot of that. And then we opened up downtown LA location, and then we-- 00:58:55.525 --> 00:58:56.844 There was a lot of expansion. 00:58:56.844 --> 00:59:22.804 Oh. So much expansion. And, you know, that's--it kind of got to me. Plus I was still living up in Vista, so I had to go all the way down to Point Loma all the time on that. So, and then they kind of did like a whole kind of reorg. And so I got, you know, thrust out of my position there. And then I, but I already was kind of looking at leaving too. So it was, it was good timing. And then that's where I went to Belching Beaver after that. But. 00:59:22.804 --> 00:59:29.000 Okay. So now Belching Beaver, again, you're going back to more quality management. 00:59:29.000 --> 01:00:54.074 I learned my lesson that I think, well, I could have done I think a good job at that position as a, well, DOBO, Director of Brewing Operation. But it was just getting to be a lot for me. Plus I wasn't really, you know, I think Modern Times was hurting by that time with all the expansion and it really just came to a forefront. I think after like, not only COVID, but the rat magnet thing that happened too after that. So, but the, uh, but yeah, going to Belching Beaver was, you know--it was like going like, kind of going back down again in scale. And it was very much like a family run, you know? It is, it was still a family run place and all that. But yeah, just a, they were having a lot of quality issues and they needed somebody to kind of with an experienced hand to help set things up in terms of their quality systems and do the micro testing. And, because they were selling a lot of beer to China, especially the peanut butter milk stout. And that was really super popular in China. So they wanted to make sure that, you know, and Chinese are very--they will try to get as much out of you as possible for as little money. It's kind of their business, way of doing business. And so when they were having a lot of quality issues going there, I found a lot of where the issues were coming from on the bottling line, because they only wanted bottles. They didn't want cans over in China. 01:00:54.074 --> 01:00:58.355 Well, when I think of Chinese beer, everything I can think of is in a bottle. 01:00:58.355 --> 01:01:48.005 Yeah. Mm-hmm. They like it. And you know, I think they have a big recycling program for glass bottles there. So like, we send those over and it was fine, but it was just, it was, you know, they--I had to be the kind of interface on the quality side. They take it very seriously there. And so I was like showing them what we were doing, where the issue came from, how we're resolving it, being very transparent with them kind of as a, you know, since we're the supplier, they're the customer, we wanna make sure that they basically saddled us as I'm using in my new industry, a supplier corrective action where I could actually like, basically tell them exactly what we were doing to resolve some of these quality issues and being very forefront with them, upfront with them, but also holding them accountable for how they store our beer. Because-- 01:01:48.005 --> 01:01:56.125 That seems to be a big problem with the imports. Or exports that we're putting out to other countries is how it's being handled on the other end. 01:01:56.125 --> 01:02:27.164 Well, because they, because, and they were--they didn't know much about the beer and how it should be stored. So I kind of educated them on that. So then they can, because the distributor, that distributor of beer, so then they can tell their customers when they come back for a, you know, as a complaint, the distributor can come back and be like, how did you store it? And it was like, did you transport this case of beer on the back of a scooter up this mountain after sitting out for like three days in like the sun? You know, it's not gonna taste the same as they remember it. 01:02:27.164 --> 01:02:29.324 How true. 01:02:29.324 --> 01:02:33.565 Yeah. And that's what we had to like, really deal with, was like-- 01:02:33.565 --> 01:02:40.034 Well, I mean, I'm sure people don't think how their actions can affect a product. 01:02:40.034 --> 01:03:13.244 Yeah. Well, and craft beer over there is very new. And or, and the beer that they were used to is the mass produced stuff from like, Snow and some of the other imports in the area. You know, coming in, but not American craft beer which is a lot more sensitive. We don't at least at that point, pasteurize our beer, which helped, you know, stabilize it, but also affected the flavor. Like the non-pasteurized stuff I think tastes better because it doesn't get cooked a little bit. You know, it's not designed for that. And so. 01:03:13.244 --> 01:03:19.525 Well, and that's the argument Coors has made for all those years, is we don't pasteurize so you get a better tasting beer. So, you know. 01:03:19.525 --> 01:03:21.474 Yeah. I think they still pasteurize a little bit. 01:03:21.474 --> 01:03:22.085 Yeah. It's-- 01:03:22.085 --> 01:03:24.474 But not the--that brand. 01:03:24.474 --> 01:03:32.454 Yeah. No, I remember their ads from when I was little. But anyway, so Belching Beaver, you were there during COVID? 01:03:32.454 --> 01:03:33.784 I was, yes. 01:03:33.784 --> 01:03:35.045 How did that work out? 01:03:35.045 --> 01:04:06.525 Um, you know what it was--I mean, we were all, it was a very confusing time whether I would get like furloughed during that or whatnot. But, with--at least we were considered an essential business, so we ended up doing a lot of production during that time. And actually our production increased significantly because like a lot of other breweries that were more reliant on taproom sales, we weren't as much. 01:04:06.525 --> 01:04:08.614 Right. You were already canning and-- 01:04:08.614 --> 01:04:09.490 And distributing. 01:04:09.490 --> 01:04:22.045 --distributing a lot of your stuff, which was very different because a lot of the smaller guys had only been tap rooms and they had to suddenly turn around and get canning equipment or a mobile canner or something to keep them in business. 01:04:22.045 --> 01:06:38.474 Absolutely. Yeah. So that was kind of the big turnaround there was that we were able to distribute to, you know, we used the Reyes Brothers (Reyes Beverage Group) distribution, and they got us into grocery stores a lot and our beer sold really well in the grocery stores. So actually, COVID was pretty decent to us, actually pretty good. I think the, obviously the restaurants that we had, the one, the pub in Vista and then the downtown one in downtown Vista suffered a little bit because of that. But after all, kind of like more restrictions were lifted and you can do outside seating and all that it was, you know, it turned out okay. But the beer definitely was helping us survive that and we actually did really well. That was like our biggest selling as far when I was there, it was actually during COVID in terms of like distributed sales. Which was actually pretty cool. So, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was weird, like wearing masks around the place. Really not knowing what sort of, I don't know, like what, like early on what actually was like the vector of contaminant--you know, of an infection was until it was like a, it was a, you know, respiratory infection. But what the interesting thing was, is like everything else that we did to try to like, reduce the amount of people working there, we furloughed a few of the brewers, so it was kind of a skeleton crew, but then we eventually had to bring them back on because we were making so much. The, the funny thing was, is just everything we were doing, like trying to help out with some of the other friends and family of the business. We actually had, one of Troy or one of our director of sales's friends is a barber and he came in and took over our bathroom and gave people haircuts in like our single stall bathroom, because they were all, like all the salons and haircut places were closed because they weren't considered an essential business. So that's how he made money, was like every week he'd come by and be like, who needs a haircut? And then we'd just go into the single serve bathroom across the way from my office. And give us haircuts. I got, it was a really nice haircut from him. 01:06:38.474 --> 01:06:42.965 Well, and that's also a bit of a morale boost that you can get yourself tidied up a little bit. 01:06:42.965 --> 01:06:45.965 Yeah! No, we were all looking a little rough there. Around the, the hair so it was-- 01:06:45.965 --> 01:06:52.525 Between all the emotional upheavals and the ups and downs everybody went through, just being able to get your hair cut was a big thing. 01:06:52.525 --> 01:08:36.000 Oh, yeah. No, and that, and that was, yeah. Like, so my wife, that was kind of the impetus of kind of both me and my wife to kind of consider where we'd want to go, you know? And beer kind of wasn't looking to be that direction. She was working at The Confessional at the time and in Cardiff. And of course they shut everything down was like supposed to be to go only, although she made exceptions for really good customers that come in and hang out, like socially distanced inside, but still just hang out and drink their beer at the bar, like a normal person instead of like having to go beers go out the front door. But, yeah, she--they had to set up the out--and then once they were allowed to do outside service, they had to set up these tables and then break 'em down again. So they wouldn't get stolen. And it was really like taking a toll on her. And we were watching a lot of Star Trek during that time. And she was like, man, I wanna be a programmer! And I was like, oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't really expect this, because she loved, I mean, she loved the customer service aspect. Like, we got to be decent friends with a lot of her regulars that were really good and, you know, met the celebrities of the Cardiff area that like to come in. Like Haro, Bob Haro of Haro Bikes. He was a regular out there and we met a lot of, you know, a lot of really cool people, including our realtor that bought our house, we met from there. So like, her wanting to move on, like she was getting really tired of moving all these tables and dealing with the customers that were upset about the whole, like, wearing your mask and-- 01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.835 The service staff got so dumped on. There was so many people. 01:08:38.835 --> 01:08:46.614 Yeah. Just because people were frustrated, the COVID thing, and they took it out on the service staff and they're just like, Hey man, we're just here trying to make some money. You know? Because-- 01:08:46.614 --> 01:08:48.925 We're not any happier about it than you are, but-- 01:08:48.925 --> 01:09:28.604 Yeah, but we're the ones that deal with it. But, and I mean, luckily enough of the regulars were, you know, kind of helped settle anyone that's like, Hey, you need to, you need to be quiet because she's doing the best she can. And she is an angel. But yeah. So, but she went to a coding bootcamp and got her certificate and then got a job at Tandem Diabetes. They make the insulin pumps for type 1 diabetes. And she was a tester for the software for the website that, you know, you order your refill kits and everything from. Um, yeah. And she misses customer service. But she doesn't miss the-- 01:09:28.604 --> 01:09:35.645 Day to day-to-day grinding part. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Watching people have to set up and break down tables and then all the cleaning you've gotta do, it's like-- 01:09:35.645 --> 01:09:37.034 Disinfecting and everything. 01:09:37.034 --> 01:09:38.925 Yeah. I got my own house to clean. Thank you. 01:09:38.925 --> 01:09:41.305 Right. I know. And that's, yeah. So I-- 01:09:41.305 --> 01:09:44.234 So yeah. That would get old again, you know, just-- 01:09:44.234 --> 01:10:23.864 Yeah, exactly. So that's what she--so that's kind of like where we were at at that point. And then, about just a little over two years ago was when, yeah, like there was kind of a, the big peak at Belching Beaver in terms of distribution during COVID. And then once everything started opening up again, I think people really wanted to go out. They didn't want to just buy beer from the grocery store anymore. So then our distribution sales fell off, but our restaurant sales went up. But the--I was probably the most expensive employee they had so they had to lay me off at that point, so. Which was good because I was actually kind of getting, I don't know, I like being in places where I learn new things and-- 01:10:23.864 --> 01:10:30.145 It sounded like you were already questioning, you know, you and your wife both. She had made a decision to make a change and, you know. 01:10:30.145 --> 01:10:44.725 Yeah. And I kind of wanted to follow that. So, yeah. And then I went--yeah, I got a job at Hydranautics and that was a little bit too--yeah. I started on Halloween of 2022. Or that was my first day. It was a Monday. 01:10:44.725 --> 01:10:47.000 A a memorable day. To say the least. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:53.324 Exactly. No. So, yeah. So that's why I kind of, that's how I got ended up out of beer at this point. 01:10:53.324 --> 01:10:58.604 But while you were in beer, you were teaching at UCSD in the Brewing Extension program? 01:10:58.604 --> 01:10:59.045 I was, yeah. I was teaching-- 01:10:59.045 --> 01:11:01.555 What classes and how, when did you teach? 01:11:01.555 --> 01:12:43.000 Yeah, so I remember like really--so it was when Yusuf first started, Yusuf Cherney first started up that--at least helped start up that program, I wasn't involved at the very beginning of it. Gwen Conley, she and I, she was kinda like my mentor--still is to a certain extent--in the business when she was at Lost Abbey. And so she was teaching the sensory classes at the time. So she actually ended up, when she wouldn't be able to make a class or whatever, she would ask me to be involved and then she would give me a portion of her money for that, which was really nice of her to do that. But I taught a little bit of that. But then, so that introduced me to them. Mitch left and stopped teaching after he left to go open his New Realm place in Atlanta. So then, Justinian took over, Justinian Caire, took over the work production class for about a year or so, but then he quit that. But then, so then they came to talk to me because Gwen recommended me. And so then I started teaching, uh, work production in 2017 -- 2018. And, I did that. At first it was pretty popular, so I did it like twice a year. I think usually like a spring and fall quarter because they did quarters there. And, but then it kind of started trailing off where I do once a year. And then last few years, it was like once every--and I taught during COVID. They wanted to have a class during COVID. So I did a whole entire remote session on Zoom and everything. The Zoom teaching, I'm sure you're all familiar with that process. 01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:44.326 Oh yeah. 01:12:44.326 --> 01:13:34.045 Yeah. It was, you know, I didn't like it just because, you know, people had their cameras off. I wasn't--I usually thrive on the back and forth, and I usually told my war stories about like, oh yeah, you should do this and let me tell you why about this. You know, like, and usually people, especially that want to go start their own breweries are kind of interested moreso in like my war stories than the actual like content of the--at least I think so otherwise they're humoring me. I'm not sure. But I know I got pretty good evaluations for on there. So, but yeah, I taught work production, recipe development for yeah--and my last class was actually, because they wound down that program. They only did the last class to help clean up anyone who still wanted to get their certificate. And that was of July of last year. Now 2024. 01:13:34.045 --> 01:13:34.645 Yeah. 01:13:34.645 --> 01:13:35.125 That was the last one. 01:13:35.125 --> 01:13:38.664 Still not used to last year being 2024. 01:13:38.664 --> 01:13:39.845 Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's-- 01:13:39.845 --> 01:13:49.805 But yeah, I mean, it was nice that they did actually get people through the program rather than just saying, okay, that's it. We're done. You know, we don't care where you are in the program. Ta-ta. 01:13:49.805 --> 01:14:11.664 Yeah. They just wanted to, yeah. There was a lot of gauging interest in who wanted to complete it because I mean, it was a lot of money people spent at that time and they just wanted very much try to get all that back. And it was a nice little supplement for my--like by the time it got around here, I was like, I was okay with letting this go. I mean, I still enjoyed it to a certain extent, but-- 01:14:11.664 --> 01:14:15.925 But you've already got a full-time job. This is on top of that. And yeah. 01:14:15.925 --> 01:14:28.000 I'm not even really in beer anymore. You know, like I have a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge about it and everything, and joy sharing that with people who were interested. But, you know, my last class, I only had three people in there. 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:28.265 Oh gosh. 01:14:28.265 --> 01:14:34.675 Yeah. And one of 'em wasn't even signed up for the class, so, but they wanted to take it. That's fine! I'm okay with it. 01:14:34.675 --> 01:14:39.295 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, get your knowledge where you can. 01:14:39.295 --> 01:14:39.305 Exactly. 01:14:39.305 --> 01:14:43.784 So at one point you were also on the Brewer's Association Quality Subcommittee. 01:14:43.784 --> 01:14:44.635 Oh yeah. 01:14:44.635 --> 01:14:47.755 What years was that and what did that committee actually do? 01:14:47.755 --> 01:17:38.244 Okay. Um, yeah, no, I kind of got kidnapped into that. But it's like, usually when these like subcommittees pop up, they always need people to like, kind of fill them. And, you know, there's a few people leaving or whatnot. But, I got in that in like 2019, I believe? Because we had some meetings over COVID. It was all Zoom meetings because it was people from breweries from all over the country. But yeah, I, um, I was involved with it. It was like the subcommittee on quality. So a lot of it was just prepping for any sort of quality talks that the Brewers Association wanted to demonstrate, like the lab, the lab in a--Lab In A Fishbowl. That's what it was called. The Lab In The Fishbowl that they always did at the Brewers Association, uh, the craft brewers conferences. And then anything else that might come up to promote quality from either the American Society of Brewing Chemists aspect, or the Master Brewers Association. And we just kind of discussed about programming and talking and any sort of big quality issues that are coming up. Like the big one they were hitting on at the time was hop creep. We're doing excessive dry hops, for usually hazy beers. Uh, ended up maybe causing some refermentation because of the enzymes that were present in these hops were--because one of the bigger innovations that came out last, like fifteen years or so, was to not kiln hops as hot. Because it, it made it like less fruity. Less flavorful, so. But as a result, some of the enzymes that are naturally present in hops kind of went in and maybe did some disassembling of some of the, like dextrins and all that and started creating more simple sugars inside the bottle or can and causing refermentation. And so it was a big quality issue and like how to avoid that. The other thing that came up, and I quit after I got my job outside of beer--I basically resigned my position. They're like, yep, you're outta beer so that's cool. All right. Well, good luck. Um, but, it was the people making non-alcoholic beer, but wanting to make sure that they know they have to pasteurize it. Because that's a big quality concern. Because not only are you having risk of like bottle or can explosions, but pathogenic bacteria too. Because you don't have alcohol. You don't have that aspect that prevents things like listeria and, you know, E coli. 01:17:38.244 --> 01:17:40.314 It's a full different basket of issues. 01:17:40.314 --> 01:18:02.226 Yeah. So that was a big thing that we talked about there. But it was, it was a good time. It was nice because I felt I was coming full circle. And one thing I forgot to mention was I was an intern at the Brewers Association when I lived in Colorado. And I helped work on the craftbeer.com website. And so I--my boss was Julia Herz, who's very famous in the industry. 01:18:02.226 --> 01:18:04.805 Yes. I've met Julia. 01:18:04.805 --> 01:18:45.845 She is a firecracker, full of energy, and she was very proud that I got a job at Stone. Um, you know, felt like she did her part to get some of these craft beer and evangelists in positions there. So, but yeah, she, that was kind of fun. So I got to be there for a year. And then we moved to out here from Colorado to work in the beer, the brewing industry actually in general. So I felt like going back to the Brewers Association, you know, at least on a subcommittee. I was like, oh, I'm doing things! It's good. I'm back here where I kind of started my little adventure. 01:18:45.845 --> 01:18:52.545 Yeah. Contributing to the industry in a broader scale than just, than just the locals. Not that there's anything wrong with just helping the locals. 01:18:52.545 --> 01:18:54.744 That's a hundred percent right. Yep. 01:18:54.744 --> 01:19:10.284 So, so then you were let go from Belching Beaver and you were already kind of looking to, you know, get out of the beer industry anyway. You kind of realized the financial repercussions of working for passion rather than-- 01:19:10.284 --> 01:19:32.234 Yeah. You know, it's, yeah. It is crazy how I was the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times was a very well known, very widely appreciated brewery at the time. And now I'm getting paid about 50% more than when I was--as a Director of Brewing Operations. Which is one of the highest positions in the company, so. It's just the way that it ends up working I think with that. 01:19:32.234 --> 01:19:34.798 Different industries have different pay scales. 01:19:34.798 --> 01:19:35.164 They do. 01:19:35.164 --> 01:19:40.005 It's just the fact of life, sadly. But, are you doing any homebrewing anymore? 01:19:40.005 --> 01:19:48.954 Um, no, I'm not, not homebrewing. I did get a little still, so I've been kind of home distilling. 01:19:48.954 --> 01:19:54.484 Okay. So you're kind of going, I mean, we are seeing more and more distilleries popping up. 01:19:54.484 --> 01:20:29.000 We are. Just, I mean, between you and me, it's just easier to distill because you don't have to worry about the fermentation quality or anything. You just, especially if like, I don't wanna spend like a weekend doing homebrewing anymore, just I'd rather do things around the house. Maybe play video games, but, you know, I'm not a into the, like, spending your weekends, like slaving over hot, you know turkey fryer burner, like I used to. But I do like the idea of distilling. I mean it, like--and it's all stovetop too. The way I do it. So it's, you know, it's simple. 01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.166 Very small batch. 01:20:31.166 --> 01:21:09.364 It's very small batch. Yeah. And so, I make like little, like, you know, like, I call ghetto fermentations of like corn and sugar. Kind of like this, like real moonshine. And I've done like, did a little mash and did some like maybe try to do my stint at like a single malt whiskey essentially. But right now my favorite thing is that they have actually a fair amount of wine in the break room at my wife's work. And so--but no one ever goes through all of that. So we have a bunch of like, half bottles of wine. So I make brandy out of it. 01:21:09.364 --> 01:21:11.784 I was gonna say, you're not gonna drink that are you? 01:21:11.784 --> 01:21:33.484 No, no, no. That's why I just distill it and make a little, uh, a little brandy. And then we put little, um, you can buy from like home brew stores online, like little like swirls or of oak. And then you put that in there. So you have oak-aged brandy. And that's like one of my things I do. 01:21:33.484 --> 01:21:34.274 Oh, how fun! 01:21:34.274 --> 01:22:02.725 It's easy too. Because you just pour a bunch of wine into this, put the lid on, and there's like a little coil and you keep that filled with water to cool it down and just brandy comes out of the condenser. I don't have to do a second distillation on it. It just, it comes around 20% or so. Which is plenty. I've done like the three times distillation ended up with like a mason jar this full of like a hundred and like sixty proof. 01:22:02.725 --> 01:22:04.164 Whoa! Goodness. 01:22:04.164 --> 01:22:13.125 Yeah. I was doing a little bit when I had access to lab equipment, so I was able to measure the potency of what I was doing. As long as I gave a sample to our brewmaster. 01:22:13.125 --> 01:22:20.290 There you go. So, being out of the industry, do you still enjoy any of the local beers? 01:22:20.290 --> 01:22:21.484 Oh, yes. 01:22:21.484 --> 01:22:24.145 Or are you just so focused on your distilling now? 01:22:24.145 --> 01:22:38.125 Oh, no. I'm not. It's like a maybe like once a month thing that I do. But, um, the yeah. Actually our kind of local like watering hole now is Battle Mage Brewing. That's where we go all the time. I actually-- 01:22:38.125 --> 01:22:40.592 I would assume you've walked over to Henebery then? 01:22:40.592 --> 01:22:41.086 Henebery's right there. 01:22:41.086 --> 01:22:43.364 Since they do the rye whiskey. Yeah. 01:22:43.364 --> 01:22:48.204 Yep. Yep. They have like a little, you know, they have a fun little collaboration. 01:22:48.204 --> 01:23:07.204 They're very collaborative. I mean, because I go to Henebery and meet up with friends Friday nights. So they can go down to Battle Mage and get glasses of beer and bring it back to drink it at Henebery. But they can't take the, any of the hard liquors over to Battle Mage. You know, I find that sort of dichotomy very interesting in the, you know, it's like-- 01:23:07.204 --> 01:23:19.000 Just alcohol. It's these alcohol rules, man. It's--they're so arcane and esoteric sometimes, you're just wondering, like, I don't know if you've heard of Yuseff's getting married story? 01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:20.150 No. Mm-hmm. 01:23:20.150 --> 01:23:48.564 Oh, gosh. So, you know, Yuseff being co-founder of Ballast Point then eventually Cutwater. He met his wife, now wife, um, she is the owner, or was the owner at the High Dive. I believe down there. And, you know, they dated and then they wanted to get married and they got married. But when they were processing their marriage license it got denied. 01:23:48.564 --> 01:23:50.414 What? 01:23:50.414 --> 01:24:16.005 Right. And they're like, well, what's the deal here? So it turns out as a result of the legislation that came out after Prohibition, it is illegal, or at least is--yeah, it's illegal or not allowed to have someone who owns a distillery or brewery marry an owner of a bar because they're worried about tied-house. 01:24:16.005 --> 01:24:20.185 Tied-house. That's extreme. That is crazy. 01:24:20.185 --> 01:24:27.965 So she, the, uh, and I totally forgot Yuseff's wife's name. Wife's name. And I'm friends with her on Facebook and everything but-- 01:24:27.965 --> 01:24:30.944 Yeah, and I'm--I know her name and it's, well, it's just like-- 01:24:30.944 --> 01:24:49.505 She speaks German and Spanish. She's lovely. Awesome person. But she had to sell her stake and the High Dive in order for them to officially get married, which they did at Valley High. And it was a whole thing, but they was like, yeah, we tried to get married now part deux, you know? 01:24:49.505 --> 01:24:55.604 Yeah. But the fact that anybody would even dig that up, I mean, we're talking a hundred years ago. 01:24:55.604 --> 01:25:03.164 Right! I didn't even think that. It's like, we know those old laws on the books that nobody enforces anymore. But apparently it's still a thing. They wouldn't allow it so. 01:25:03.164 --> 01:25:03.912 That's crazy. 01:25:03.912 --> 01:25:09.725 I know. I--it was kind of crazy to, I don't even know how they found out. Like how would you look that up? Like really? 01:25:09.725 --> 01:25:09.928 Yeah. 01:25:09.928 --> 01:25:14.244 I mean, because usually it's like, there's this person, there's this person, or you related? No, okay's. Let's do this. 01:25:14.244 --> 01:25:22.284 Yeah. Really, you know, you've done your blood tests and fine, you know? Great. You're now legal. So, oh, that's amazing. I hadn't heard that story. 01:25:22.284 --> 01:25:25.849 No, that's one of my favorite stories to tell, especially for history buffs. 01:25:25.849 --> 01:25:31.085 Well, it's a perfect example of how arcane our laws are and how they need to be cleaned up. 01:25:31.085 --> 01:25:31.704 A hundred percent. 01:25:31.704 --> 01:25:53.835 And of course, you know, with former President Carter passing away at a hundred, the fact that he actually gave homebrewing that kick to become, start commercializing. A lot of people are bringing that up now. And as you know, a way to remember him, you know? Oh, yeah remember Carter was the one that, you know, made home, homebrewing able to go commercial and stuff. 01:25:53.835 --> 01:26:08.614 Yeah. My dad was never a Jimmy Carter fan. Because you know, during--he was in the military at the time and he did a lot of pay cuts for the military. Of course, when Ronald Reagan came into play, we went into a lot of debt to give the military pay raises. 01:26:08.614 --> 01:26:09.784 Which they needed. 01:26:09.784 --> 01:26:16.005 But, he always says like, yeah, that's the only thing, good thing that Jimmy Carter did was legalized homebrewing. 01:26:16.005 --> 01:26:18.326 It certainly wasn't the fact that the brother brought up Billy Beer. 01:26:18.326 --> 01:26:21.164 Yeah. I was like. I was gonna say, I think it was more like his brother. Yeah. 01:26:21.164 --> 01:26:26.234 I think he had to apologize for Billy's beer. 01:26:26.234 --> 01:26:26.244 Billy Beer! 01:26:26.244 --> 01:27:03.305 Yeah. That's wild. Oh, Rick, this has been absolutely wonderful and very intriguing seeing your path through the ins and outs of the San Diego brewing industry from being brewer, but also working it through quality control. Because I think quality control, well, even proper packaging, those are unsung heroes. You know, if you don't treat the product right, it's not going to fly. And especially now after COVID with everybody expecting everything to be packaged, it makes a huge difference. 01:27:03.305 --> 01:27:55.814 No, it's, um, I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that many breweries run into is like really taking it seriously. You can't just like, put things in bottles or cans like you did when you were homebrewing. You really have to think about like, the steps that it takes to get there in order for it to be considered a high quality product. Going in. And of course quality is subjective. It really is. But the fact is, is that, you know, and of course the joke is that, quality is subjective, but it is the same definition as porn. I know it when I see it. You know. Or I know it when I taste it. So it's, you know, it's been hard at certain points to get to that point because a lot of breweries don't take quality issues seriously until it really seriously affects them or their brand. 01:27:55.814 --> 01:28:00.345 And some don't ever take it seriously. And that's the reasons they're no longer open. 01:28:00.345 --> 01:28:01.354 Exactly. Yeah. 01:28:01.354 --> 01:28:04.034 I mean there are some names I could name and I won't. 01:28:04.034 --> 01:28:29.354 Oh yeah, no, same, same. Yeah. But it's always the--it was always the case where if I knew they were trying to take it seriously and sometimes they just didn't either have the financial or the scientific expertise to go through it or the experience to do it, then it's like, I'll take you way more seriously because you want to, instead of some of these breweries that take pride that they don't, sometimes. And there was a few of those. 01:28:29.354 --> 01:28:34.854 Yeah. So, well, on that note, I will end the recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. Description An account of the resource Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-067 Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry Stone Brewing Co. Belching Beaver Brewery Modern Times Beer + Coffee Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- Quality control Brewing industry -- Accidents Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-01-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rick Blankemeier Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marco University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rick Blankemeier License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Brewchive(r) Community history