5 10 83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chamorro language;imperialism;language revitalization OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. SC027-089 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture ; Chamorro history ; language revitalization ; Spanish colonization ; Japanese colonization ; United States/American colonization ; grandparents ; education Chamorro language ; imperialism ; language revitalization Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Jennifer Ho Moving image LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f31815d4ea546e978b499adb5f085e06.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua, July 12th 2024, by Jennifer Ho, Communities and Cultures Archivist, university Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 148 Constantly Moving Miget discusses how his early childhood was filled with moving form place to place following his father's career for the US military and US State Department. Swaziland ; Guam ; United States ; Military ; Moving 0 530 Racism in Central California Miget talks about growing up in Atasacdero, CA and the racism that he encountered while going to highschool. Racism ; Chamorro ; white ; Latino ; Atascadero--Calif. 0 906 Moving to Guam Miget talks about how it was moving to Guam to be with his grandparents after highschool. Guam ; University of Guam ; College ; education 0 1332 Connecting with His Grandmother and Chamorro Culture Miget talks about how his attitude towards learning the Chamorro language changed when he took the time to sti down with his Grandmother and practice. Language revitalization ; Chamorro culture ; Imperialism ; US policy 0 1846 Connecting with His Grandfather Miget talks about how his Grandfather was always hesitant to speak Chamorro with him and would not teach Miget his blacksmithing. Miget's Grandfather's views began to shift as he saw how dedicated to the Chamorro language and culture Miget was becoming. Trauma ; Japanese occupation ; WWII ; US occupation ; Imperialism 0 2316 Chamorro Language Classes Miget discusses how he started teaching Chamorro Language lessons in smoothie shops and coffee shops. Language revitalization ; Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture 0 2739 Creating a Chamorro Immersion Program with June and Clarissa Miget talks about how some of his students, June Pangolin and Clarissa Mendiola, approached him with the idea of creating a Chamorro immersion program. Prugraman Sinipok ; Chamorro language ; Language revitalization ; Language immersion 0 3235 Escaping the States Miget talks about how he first moved to Guam to escape the racism and feelings of being lost or not fitting in in the United States. Racism ; Cultural identity ; Education ; California 0 3666 Cultural Influences Miget talks about how Johnny Sablan, a Chamorro musician and song writer, serves as an inspiration to him to continue his language revitalization journey. Johnny Sablan ; Chamorro music ; Chamorro culture 0 4001 What is Your Vision of the Future for Chamorro Language? Miget talks about his children and the hopes and dreams he has for Chamorro culture and language in the future. Children ; Cultural identity ; Chamorro culture ; Language revitaliztion 0 Oral history Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.155 --> 00:00:14.585 Okay, 00:00:14.585 --> 00:00:19.195 I'm, a little bit under the weather, but, feeling very good otherwise. 00:00:19.195 --> 00:00:30.585 Okay, good. Thanks for being here with me. I appreciate it. Okay, so I would like to start with your childhood. Tell me when and where you were born, and I'd love to hear about the people who raised you. 00:00:30.585 --> 00:02:28.425 Oh, yes. So I was born in the year 1980 on the island of Guam. My dad, his name's Robert Bevacqua. He, has his roots in New York, Italian American, with some German ancestry, the Bevacqua family. His father, participated in the liberation of Europe in World War II and was a career US, Air Force officer, and then retired to Hawaii after, the war. And then, so my dad spent his formative years growing up in Hawaii. My mother, was the daughter of, Joaquin Flores. My mother, Rita Luhan--Flores Luhan was the daughter of Joaquin Flores Luhan and Elizabeth de León Flores Luhan. And my great--my grandfather on my mother's side was a master blacksmith. He was a cultural, master in Guam, the last traditional, cultural, master of that type, meaning that, there used to be many blacksmiths on Guam, especially during the Spanish period in which most people survived, by living off the land, farming and so on. But after World War II and dramatic changes to life, nearly all of them did not pass on the knowledge to their children, their grandchildren, or take any apprentices. And so my grandfather was basically the youngest blacksmith before the war. He--when the Japanese invaded Guam in 1941, he was 21 years old, and he had learned blacksmithing from the age of nine from his father. And then he also learned how to weld, as a machinist from the US Navy. And so, so my mother, you know, so my, my mother's family had roots in Guam. My mother and father met in Hawaii, and, they stayed together for a number of years. They had, three children together, and then they got divorced. 00:02:28.425 --> 00:05:20.206 And so my upbringing was a lot of moving back and forth between California and Guam, sort of moving back and forth between families. And then the most fascinating phase of it was a year and a half, a two year stint, in which my dad worked for the US State Department in a US farming aid program in the 1980s. And so we did live, for less than two years, in the country of, in the southern African country of Swaziland. So I was just like five years old at that time, or a little--five or six years old. And so growing up, I don't feel like I had a particularly strong sense of my identity as a person from Guam, as a Chamorro person. Part of it was just moving around from different places. And then also part of it too was that my mother's generation and then my generation, we represented in many ways, sort of the impacts of Americanization policies, kind of put out there by the US Navy, which had taken Guam in 1898 via the Spanish American War. And so Chamorro's after World War II had kind of put into hyperdrive this push to Americanize themselves. To stop speaking their language, to sell their land, to jump into sort of the wage economy, to leave the island behind and move to the states where they could, you know, finally, touch what they could only see in JC Penny catalogs that came to the island. When I was growing up on Guam it was fascinating because the television--the ads and the shows that were shown on television were recorded on cassette tapes on the west Coast of the United States, and then they were mailed every single day to Guam. So you watched shows like Dallas or LA Law two weeks after they initially premiered in California and in the United States. And so--and then eventually this was kind of brought down to just one week, and then now you can kind of watch them because of, you know, satellite technology. You can watch them the day of and so on. But that feeling of growing up and like constantly being fed these ideas of the United States, like, especially through media, but then kind of always never being able to realize it or find it on the island. It definitely did--It definitely did a number on me, and I think a lot of others in my generation where there was this feeling like, you need to leave the island. You need to kind of forget being a Chamorro, forget Guam, you know, head out to the States. 00:05:20.206 --> 00:08:40.024 Like a case in point for that is growing up, there was always ads for a place called Raging Waters (water park in LA). And kids, my generation, like desperately wanted to go to Raging Waters. And it was ridiculous because Guam has amazing beaches and it has waterparks and water slides already. Why would there be this cachet about Raging Waters? But it is sort of this, this kind of, this lure of--this colonial lure. The United States kind of is up here, and then we're constantly striving to kind of reach it. And in--and what happens as a result is that we kind of devalue, we set aside, we throw away the things that we, the things that we have. And so when I was growing up, I didn't care much about being Chamorro. In fact, I was growing up in the 1980s at a time where what we refer to today as the Chamorro renaissance, which is kind of like the cultural awakening. The Chamorro empowerment movement, which, which, in the seventies was initially called like the Brown Power Movement after sort of similar movements in the United States. It was starting to take root, but it hadn't really reached the wider population. And so even, the word that we used to refer to ourselves was in flux. So the word that we had used, that we used for ourselves for hundreds of years, perhaps thousands of years, of course, Chamorro. But after the United States had defeated the Japanese and returned, there was this feeling that we needed to show loyalty to the United States, that a new era had begun. And so part of this came then that the leaders of the Chamorro people actually proposed renaming themselves. And so instead of Chamorro, which was difficult for Americans to comprehend, difficult for them to pronounce, which could confuse them, instead what they did is they actually had a poll--polls in the late 1940s in which they put it to villages to ask them, which of these options do you approve? And there was options like Guamerican Guamanian, Guamian, Guamese. And so one of the highest vote getters was Guamerican. But the US Navy at that time informed Chamorro leaders that you are not to call yourselves Guamericans, 'cause you're not Americans. And so the one of the--the next highest--then because of sort of the war and sort of ill feelings towards the Japanese, which had occupied the island brutally for 32 months, Guamese was absolutely out. So Guamanian is what stuck. And so for two generations, Chamorros referred to themselves in this era of Americanization, this blitz of Americanization. They referred to themselves as Guamanians. So when I was growing up, there was--the conversation was starting about whether we should keep calling ourselves Guamanians or whether we should go back to calling ourselves Chamorro. And so it was a very confusing time. 00:08:40.024 --> 00:12:20.625 But I wasn't as a young person, and even into my teens, I wasn't somebody who cared a lot about these issues because, I didn't have a strong sense of my own identity. My grandfather, I mentioned, had been a cultural master. He had trained a number of apprentices. But the fact that his grandchildren couldn't speak Chamorro or the fact that he saw us as being too Americanized and too Westernized meant that he wouldn't teach us. My grandmother always teased him saying well, (speaking in Chamorro) who raised them? We raised them. We raised them because we wanted Americans. And now we can't be angry at them. We wanted Americans, we got Americans. And now you complain when they don't--when they only wanna look out for themselves. So my grandparents were always a balance on each other. My grandfather sort of--but eventually I did develop sort of a strong connection to my cultural identity. But it happened in a number of sort of convoluted ways. And a lot of it actually happened out here in San-- not in San Diego, but here in California when I was away from the islands that, my mother, had married our dad and then divorced. She had moved us back to Guam to live with her parents. We were there for a few years. And then she had met somebody else when we were visiting her sister in California, in the Central Coast near Pismo Beach, Arroyo Grande. And so she just on a whim, because she had fallen in love, decided to move us all out there. Which was very jarring and shocking because for me, I wasn't, I didn't like love Guam. I wasn't gonna like die for Guam. But I also--California was not my home. And so when we came out to California, I liked it in some ways. I didn't like it in other ways. And this especially became, so as I moved into high school years, and I ended up in a school in a city, it's called Atascadero, which has a, like a mental, State hospital, and then it has an In-N-Out burger. And so it's--it was a very weird place for me because my mother had married a man who I had issues with at that time because they loved each other, but they also basically reinvented the Brady Bunch with us. My mom had three kids. Charles, my new stepdad had three kids, and we all lived in a three bedroom house. And then they had one more kid together. And so it was tough because, you know, for me, you know, the more that I was out in the States and as I was getting older, like I felt like I didn't belong in the States. And a lot of this I didn't share with my family because I didn't know who to talk to about this sort of thing. There was no other people from Guam in the area, just my mom, my siblings, and then my aunt who lived 40 miles south. But I would go to my--I would go to school, like the high school there, and I would get like hazed and harassed by like the white kids with the giant belt buckles and the big cowboy hats, because they saw me as being some sort of like weird Latino kid. But then I would also get harassed by Latino kids, 'cause they saw me as being like a fake Hispanic kid who wasn't like cholo enough, who wasn't--who was like fronting that I was white or--and so I was like-- it was--I was getting harassed and I was getting into fights, like on both sides. And it like really frustrated and angered me. 00:12:20.625 --> 00:15:16.945 And it eventually--like left where I like ran away from home. For a while and went to go stay with friends. And my mom, who, you know, who at that time I was very, I was not a good son. I was a very unpleasant sort of like 16-year-old to her. She was very patient. She was very loving. I don't think that she could really understand what I was feeling 'cause I think, you know, for her it's just, she's okay being out here in California. And I didn't nearly know how to talk about what I was feeling. I had no idea. But if something happened in my life though, that changed everything, was that once I-I decided to finish high school early. So I tested out of high school and then, because I hated going to high school. I went to like five different high schools in like a semester because I had trouble acclimating. I even went to like a, (coughs) excuse me--like a high school for juvenile delinquents because of my behavioral problems at that time. And so I decided to take the test in which you can just do your high school proficiency. So then I could just start going to college and then figure out what I wanted to do. And at that time, I was kinda lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but my, my grandparents who were in Guam, my mom's parents, you know, they were hearing about all the stuff I was going through. They had come out at one point because my grandfather had heart surgery at Stanford. And so they, they basically--my grandmother told me, just come stay with us. Just come home and stay with us. You can stay here. We have a car you can use. Just come home and stay with us. And so I just decided to. And it was--it took a few years, but eventually this is--this was a choice that completely changed my life because I wasn't --it--the homecoming wasn't like that I suddenly like got on my knees and I said, I am a Chamorro. I love my culture, I love my identity, I'm proud. But I came home and I found that I liked, even though I was, you know, I'm half Chamorro and I, you know, I'm a little bit lighter skinned than a lot of Chamorros and I can't speak Chamorro. I found that I was more comfortable and Guam than being out here. I found I liked that my family was out there, so I had roots. So if I felt like I didn't have a place to go, I still had a family. If I didn't know where I belonged, I had my grandparents and I could always kind of turn to them as like a, so even if I felt lost, I could just go hang out and, you know, just take my grandparents for a drive and take them to a funeral and then go eat lunch, you know, at a restaurant with them and just hang out with them. And then I felt like, like home. 00:15:16.945 --> 00:18:32.765 And so all of these experiences though, connecting with my grandparents really like, changed my perspective. Where I started to get more interested first in kind of the history of our people a little bit in the culture. I started to, at first when I started going to the University of Guam, I just wanted to like, take class in like English literature, I wanted to go into an MFA program for art. But towards the end of my undergrad, I started to take classes in like Guam history and Micronesian history, Pacific Island history. 'cause I realized like I wanna know more about this place that we come from. And so, like, my whole life changed when, in my last year at the University of Guam, I had to pick my foreign language requirement. And I had already taken one semester of Spanish at a community college here in California. And so I was trying to decide should I take another language or should I just take Spanish? And I was gonna take Spanish. I signed up for Spanish. And then when I got in there, it was so hard, like I realized that it had been like three years since I had taken Spanish and I had forgotten all the Spanish because the teacher just put on a telenovela and I had no idea what anybody was saying. And so I was at the breakfast table with my grandparents and my mom's oldest sister, my Auntie Eleanor. And then I was asking them, I was like, man, what language should I take? There's always this pressure to take Japanese 'cause that's for the longest time, that's the biggest bulk of the tourists to Guam, Japanese. There's all these language classes there. And so I was trying to figure out--and then my Auntie Eleanor, who was always very blunt, she said, that's a stupid question, Miget. Aren't you Chamorro? You should take Chamorro if you're Chamorro, you're not Spanish. You should take Chamorro. Aren't you a real Chamorro? And at that time, I did not feel like I was a real Chamorro at all, but I felt challenged. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna take Chamorro. And so I decided to, and I thought in my-- in sort of the smaller sort of more fragile parts of my brain, I thought I took Spanish. Chamorro was just like Spanish. We were colonized for a few hundred years. This should be easy, right? I was like the worst student in the class. I was so bad 'cause I had--a lot of the students in the class had grown up in Guam. So a lot of things they were already familiar with because in Guam, if you go to the public school, you take several years of Chamorro language. So things are very familiar. You may not be fluent, but you at least are familiar with certain songs, with certain, like pledges, certain words, vocabulary. I didn't know any of it. And so my professor, who is now a master storyteller in our culture, he teased me 'cause he knew my grandfather. And he's like, Miget, your grandfather is so very Chamorro and you are so very not Chamorro. You are a shame for your family. You bring shame to your family because I was so bad. And everyone was--and the thing is, like, I was--everyone knew me as being smart. 00:18:32.765 --> 00:19:40.635 I was always good in my classes. I was like the kid from California, like the Chamhaole Chamorro haole, the Chamorro white kid from California who talks a lot in the classes and does well, we can ask him for help with your homework. But in this class, I was so bad. And it was a very humbling experience. Some of the students who sat behind me who were pretty good in Chamorro, they would tease me. They would feed me answers and embarrass me. So there was a--there was a girl who I kind of had a crush on who sat on the other side of the class. And I would look at her sometimes and I would be like, man, Maria's so good at Chamorro and, but I'm so bad at Chamorro. I should get better at Chamorro than maybe Maria will like hang out with me or something like that. Because, you know, Maria, like, you know, she's learning to say the pray the Catholic prayers in Chamorro from her family, she's super Chamorro compared to me. And so the guys that sit behind me, they like whispered some stuff to me, and they told me to say this. And so after class, when I said it to her, it was very offensive. It's one of the most offensive things you can say in the Chamorro language, 00:19:40.635 --> 00:19:46.134 Oh no! 00:19:46.134 --> 00:19:48.868 that I said to her. And so she hasn't spoken to me since, but, 00:19:48.868 --> 00:19:49.000 You can't tell us what it is? 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:55.000 Oh, so the word is, Chada Nana-mu, so it means it's--you're your mother's eggs, as in you're your mother's vagina. 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Oh dear... 00:19:56.000 --> 00:22:12.585 So it's like a, it's the equivalent of like Chamorro for 'motherfucker'. And so I didn't--I had no idea 'cause my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, but my grandmother was very religious and she did not allow any cursing in Chamorro in the house. So I didn't even know curse words in Chamorro. Everyone else knew at least the curse words. I didn't know that. And that was super embarrassing. But all of these experiences were important because then what I had to do is that I had to go and I had to ask my grandparents for help with my homework. And my grandfather said, no. You know, and my grandmother said, absolutely. My grandmother was very excited to help me. And so she would sit with me and sometimes she would walk me through the homework and sometimes she would just do my homework for me. And so after a few weeks, my professor would be like, Miget, why is it that your written Chamorro is so good, but your spoken Chamorro is still so bad? And I'd be like, oh, I'm just, I need time to prepare professor. I just need time to prepare and then I got it. And so my grandmother was like, she was loving it. And the more that I went through this, the more I realized that like, my grandparents spoke more to each other, but they did not speak it to their children. So part of the legacy of the 20th century when the United States came into Guam is that one of the earliest things that they proposed is that the Chamorro language be banned in public spaces. So it was banned for the most part in schools. Children were punished. You might have to drink castor oil If you drink--if you speak Chamorro. You might get slapped on the fingers with a ruler. You might have to wear a dunce cap. There was like jars akin to swear jars where you have to pay a fine if you're caught speaking Chamorro. And children were encouraged to report on each other too. So eventually some teachers, some principals, created English clubs in which Chamorro children wore badges that said, "Speak English", "English only." And then they went around finding children speaking Chamorro and then they turned them in to get them in trouble. 00:22:12.585 --> 00:24:30.825 And so this created like an atmosphere in which--my-- for people in my grandparents' generation, they could all speak Chamorro, but the idea of passing the language on to the next generation was fraught with, it was fraught with peril because the school system, the United States, all of these things, all these pressures had basically convinced you that while the language is good for you to speak to your parents, good to speak to your peers, you shouldn't be using it with your children. The language shouldn't go on. And so what we've seen since then is ever since World War II, the language just completely declines to the point now where 80% of the Chamorro people in the world cannot speak their language. Including in the Mariana's Islands and then out here. And so my--so I didn't know much of this, but, when I came to my grandmother, though, she was so eager to help me and what was beautiful about it is that I was your typical sort of 19 and 20-year-old. And I'm very upfront about it 'cause I think sometimes people can be very--sometimes people can be very idealized. I was very upfront--I'll be very upfront, like I was a 19 and 20-year-old who did not want to hang out with my grandparents all the time. I had a car, I had friends, I had other things I wanted to do. So sometimes if my grandmother said, Mike, can you take me to the store? I might make something up. So I didn't have to. Or if she said, can you take me to a funeral? I would say, oh, I have homework. And so I don't--you know, I am very real about that because I loved my grandmother, but I didn't have this strong connection to her yet. But learning Chamorro from her gave me like a very strong connection. Because the more I sat with her at the breakfast table and the dinner table, and the more that we talked and the more that she shared, the more I realized that actually I would much rather be sitting at that table with her than going to any club or any bar going and hanging out with friends. 00:24:30.825 --> 00:28:41.865 And so I decided after taking the first level of Chamorro, I took the second level of beginning Chamorro. And like the second class I was having fun. Like, I went above and beyond, you know, like we had an assignment where you had to like translate an English song in Chamorro. I worked with my grandma to translate a bunch of songs into Chamorro. So I was like, grandma, can you help me translate? "Hey Jude" (Hey Jude by The Beatles) my grandma's like, hafa enao "Hey Jude", what's, "Hey Jude", what's that? And I'm like, here, ni ta ekungok, let's listen to it. And then she listened to it and then we sat there for a while translating, "Hey Jude". And then eventually after we had the lyrics, you know, we sat there just singing it in Chamorro together. And it was so much fun. We translated "Ain't No Sunshine When She's Gone" (Ain't No Sunshine by Bill Withers) into Chamorro. And it was like glorious because I realized that my--like I had lived with my grandparents a lot. I had sat in the cars with them. I had sat next to them in churches I had sat with next to them at parties. This didn't mean I talked to them a lot. This didn't mean I knew a lot about them. But once I came to my grandmother and my grandfather and I started to ask them for help in Chamorro, suddenly my grandmother was telling me things and talking to me. And I loved it. I loved it so much. And so after I finished my two Chamorro classes, I asked my grandmother in my very broken Chamorro I said, (speaking Chamorro), can you talk to me (in) Chamorro? And my grandmother was so happy. And my grandmother then shared that when she had been a teacher before World War II in the 1930s, 1940s, she had had to punish Chamorro children for speaking the language. And she hated it. She thought it was wrong. She did not like it. But those were the rules. And the Americans created the rule and then Chamorro principles and other Chamorro teachers enforced those rules. And so she couldn't challenge it, but she was so happy. My grandmother was a quiet woman that never like very rarely ever protested or spoke out directly, but she always whispered that more people need to stand up for the Chamorro people. And so when I told her I wanted to--when I wanted to learn Chamorro, she said, more people need to learn Chamorro, this is good. My grandfather resisted at first, he did not want to speak to me in Chamorro. He would tease me. And my grandfather and me always had a tough relationship in which he was always about teasing. But this is a normal thing. People experienced different types of trauma and people have different ways of dealing with that trauma. My grandfather had been, beaten by the Japanese during World War II. He had almost been executed along with his father and siblings by the Japanese during World War II. After the war, he had become the first Chamorro US immigration Officer. And his experience, there was something that I did not fully appreciate, until years after years when he would talk more openly and grandma would talk about it. But he was constantly made to feel like he was less than because he didn't speak good English. And so he--his resistance to sort of me speaking Chamorro. So for example, my grandfather, when I would ask him to help me with my Chamorro for the first few years, he would resist it just out of sort of insecurity. Like, I can't help you. Like why you wanna learn this language, this language stupid. It's useless. You should learn a language that people want to speak. All sorts of stuff like that. And so--but I persisted and eventually it changed my grandfather too. And so, you know, one of the things that me learning Chamorro did is that, you know, getting connected to my grandparents is that then I started enjoying spending time with them. 00:28:41.865 --> 00:32:56.464 So my grandfather had a shop in which he displayed his tools and sold his blacksmithing tools at one of the night market Chamorro village areas. And, I had to go with him every Wednesday night to help sell him. I used to hate it now, I liked it. I got to help grandpa, I got to talk to people, and I got to practice my Chamorro. And then I showed more interest now in grandpa as a blacksmith too. I wanted to know about this part of our culture. And so I left, you know, when I, left in, 2004 to start my PhD out here in California, I was learning Chamorro. And I was very sad because I thought like I was gonna lose my Chamorro ability 'cause I was gonna be away from my grandparents. Because I had gotten into this flow of--with my grandparents, where like I would before if my grandma said, can you take me to a funeral this week? I would be like, oh, grandma,I have a paper. Do I can't? But now I would wake up and I'd be like, Hey grandma, is there a funeral this week that I can take you to? 'cause I was excited to go and hold her hand and meet her friends and get to practice our language and then just hear their stories and then write them down. And then, this is when I started to do like my own oral history research--is that my grandmother would go with me and then we would sit with people, and like spend the afternoon taking down their stories. And it was so much fun. And so when I went out to the States for my PhD, I thought that this was gonna kind of like ruin my Chamorro, but it actually made my-- it made me miss my grandparents a lot. I called them just about every day to keep practicing. And then within a few years I came back and my grandfather had completely changed his kind of attitude to the end of his life, my grandfather said that my Chamorro is not the same as his Chamorro. And he would--he could sometimes be very mean about that. But when I came back in 20--2008 and I was starting to work on my dissertation, like something had shifted in him because by that time that I was, you know, I was getting a name for myself as somebody who cared about culture and language and I was maybe gonna be like a professor or something. And he--and people were telling my grandfather, you should be proud Mr. Lujan of your grandson. He can speak Chamorro. And so he was starting to shift. And so in 2008, my youngest--my younger brother and me both came back to Guam. And I asked my grandfather, you know--to if he wanted our help in his blacksmith shop. And for the first time he said yes. And that was, that was very life changing because he had always said no before. And he had always done it in a way that is very reminiscent of sort of like cultural artisans in which they basically say, yes, I will teach you, but you have to show enough initiative. So like--so if you don't show that you care enough, then they're not really gonna teach you. They're gonna say they're willing to teach you. But if it's clear that you don't care enough. So like for example, if you--so some people that would ask my grandfather to teach them, he would say, come to my house at like 10 o'clock on a Sunday. And then if they showed up at 10 o'clock and they didn't bring any food with them, then he would say, nevermind, you know, if you're serious, you should come earlier. You should bring something to eat. 'cause we got to eat. And so you gotta show that you care and you have to show that you respect the person you're learning from. And so learning from my grandfather, that was very life changing. And it was frustrating at times. But part of it was that my grandfather's--sort of his insecurity, his trauma around English, his trauma dealing with racism, like, I don't know if he ever kind of dealt with it in any full way, but at least me speaking Chamorro gave him some comfort when we were in the shop. He could speak English if he wanted to, but he could also speak Chamorro. 00:32:56.464 --> 00:35:55.385 And sometimes he might tease my Chamorro, your Chamorro is not my Chamorro (speaking Chamorro). But we kept learning, making tools and it was, it was fun and it was cool. And all of this just solidified me as somebody who like cares about language, culture, history, people in like a very deep way. And so it-- and it's all because my grandparents, and it's all because of my connection to them. And it's all because I humbled myself to take the language from them, even if it may have taken a little while for my grandfather. And so I, I hold onto, (responding off camera) oh is it okay, okay. I hold onto to certain memories. 'cause now them, both of them have passed away. My grandmother passed away in 2013 and my grandfather passed away in 2015. And so I was so glad that my grandmother got to hear, one of her great-grandchildren speak Chamorro before she passed. And it was a very touching moment where we went over to visit and my oldest child who's now 17, you know, went to go, while I sat at the table with my grandfather and was talking, my oldest child who was just a young baby at that time, went over to go and sit with my grandmother in the living room. And you know, my grandmother came over after a few minutes and she put her hand on my shoulder and you know, she said to me, (speaking Chamorro) your daughter is speaking Chamorro. And I was like, yeah, (responding in Chamorro) because for me, every one of my children, from the moment they're born, I promised them (speaking Chamorro), I tell them, I will protect you with all of my life and then I will speak to you only in this language. And so my grandmother was like tearing and up and crying and she was rubbing my shoulder and I was like, (speaking Chamorro) grandma she's speaking Chamorro. And my grandmother was like, (responding in Chamorro) It's like a miracle, because after a while there's still thousands of Chamorro speakers, but they're all older. There's very few young Chamorro speakers. It's very rare to hear a baby speaking Chamorro or a child speaking Chamorro. And so I'm so glad that I got to have that moment with my grandmother to give her that moment and for me to have that moment. And even for my grandfather who towards the end of his life, he would not let go of blacksmithing even when he could no longer stand on his own. We would have to wheel him down into the shop and he was in a walker and we would've to hold him up so that he could work. 00:35:55.385 --> 00:39:31.835 And even when his eyesight started to go, he was still better at shaping blades and sharpening blades than I was. But towards the--in like the last few months of his life, he told me, you know, (speaking Chamorro) our Chamorro's not the same, but I'm happy that you're speaking Chamorro. And I think that was the best I was ever gonna get from Grandpa in terms of acknowledgement. But all of this though, basically made it so that what was something that was not important to me at all, the Chamorro language, has become something that is like supremely important to me--wanting to share.--having like that experience when I was trying to learn Chamorro in Guam in the early two thousands and having that experience of working with my grandmother and then trying to find elders to help me practice, but then realizing that fewer and fewer people can speak the language. So when I was like 21 years old, I would map out my day to always try to find the Chamorro speakers. When I go to a grocery store, who is the cashier that can speak Chamorro. And I go to them. You know, if I go to like a clinic, which is the nurse that can speak Chamorro, and then I'll try to talk to that person. And then--but realizing that for a lot of people, if they wanna learn Chamorro, it's gonna be really difficult just because they may encounter somebody--like they're--they may not have somebody who's as generous as like my grandmother. 'cause my grandmother was like the kindest soul ever. When I would like create atrocious Chamorro sentences, my grandmother would say, I wouldn't say it like that. Why don't you try saying it like this? My grandfather would just be like, it's wrong lachi' it's wrong. That's--or he would tease me, what's that? Tagalog? Is that Tagalog? He would just tease me. And most Chamorros, because of their own kind of insecurities around the language, especially being punished for speaking Chamorro, like they'll just tease. 'cause they don't want to deal with like the trauma involved. So what I did is, even though I got a degree in Ethnic Studies, which was not about language revitalization, I just decided to make language revitalization a big part of my life. I decided to make sure that my kids can speak Chamorro, but I also decided that I would help the community. And so for the past 15 years I've had free language classes in the community. At first they started off in a smoothie shop and then they started--and then they went to coffee shops. And sometimes like two people, three people would be there. I would put up a flyer or later put up just a note on Facebook saying, free Chamorro lessons, just come down. If somebody buys me a drink, I'll teach you Chamorro. And sometimes there'd be a few people, sometimes there'd be 20 people and it would ebb and flow. But for me it was just important because there's classes that you can take on Guam, you can sign up for a class in the University, but there needs to be more spaces than that. And so for me it was just like, come to a coffee shop and I'll give you--I'll just give you some lessons in Chamorro. 'cause some people don't have the money or don't have the time to go and sign up for like a full on class. 00:39:31.835 --> 00:42:00.853 And so I kept these language classes going on Guam for a very long time. And it was pretty interesting because over the years, so many people kind of filtered through them. People who were like poli-- eventual politicians, activists, radical scholars. People would come on island and just like hang out at them just to kind of see what is this language class here? And the classes would be all types because they would be basically based on like whatever people were feeling. So sometimes it would be handouts with like a formal lesson. And then sometimes if people had a little bit more fluency, we would just play games in Chamorro. So like we would play Clue in Chamorro or we would play Scrabble in Chamorro. And then, we even played Dungeons and Dragons in Chamorro. And so sometimes we would just listen to music and then translate songs. And so it would just change depending on whoever came and whoever was coming. And so it was a very--it was a wonderful organic community space for language learning. And then the pandemic happened. And at that point I had maybe like 20 or 30 people who are coming every Friday, excuse me, every Saturday to the classes. And I just put it out to them in our WhatsApp chats like, well, I don't know when this is over the pandemic. Do you just want to meet on Zoom? And everyone said yes. And I said, well, are you okay if I also just like invite people online? I'll just put it out online too and say free Chamorro classes people can sign up and, and come, and when I say sign up, you just need to get the Zoom link and then you can just join. There's no formal sign up, there's no fees. You just have to come and then hang out. And I wasn't prepared for how like successful it was. In the first year, in 2020, we broke my Zoom 'cause there was a limit that I didn't know about where you could only have a hundred people. So then I had to like upgrade my Zoom for more people. And so that was--and then at the high point, like in August of 2020, over the course of three hours, because I would offer three levels, beginner, beginner, two, and then intermediate. There was 300 people in the class. 00:42:00.853 --> 00:42:00.864 Wow. 00:42:00.864 --> 00:45:39.264 And I'm always careful because people come to the class at different stages and for different reasons. So some people come are very serious learners. They want to study. They're going to come up with a plan for learning. Other people just feel the word in Chamorro is mahalang, meaning lonely, isolated, homesick. They just don't have any Chamorros around them. Maybe they're the only Chamorro in their corner of Wyoming or Vermont and maybe they've left the islands or maybe they are somebody where their family migrated to the United States in the fifties or sixties and then erased what it means to be Chamorro. Not just the language, but then even just-- 'cause I've encountered so many students where they wouldn't even use the word Chamorro at all because of pressures to assimilate or perhaps feelings of racism that were internalized. And so students come into the classes and they just are so excited to be in a space where like, I'm a Chamorro, I don't know what it means. Is it okay to be here? And I'm like, yeah, this is a space for everybody. Like you don't have to be the smartest Chamorro. You don't have to be the best Chamorro just--and you don't even have to be Chamorro. 'cause a bunch of people have Chamorro wives or husbands or partners or they have a-- like even in the program that we have now, four of the people in our immersion program here are not Chamorro. And so from this program, it's like, it's grown huge. And when I say people join because they have different needs and they're at different points, it's so true. Some people will turn on their cameras and they will take copious notes. Other people, you know, will basically be driving, you know, driving in their car, who knows where, other people will be cooking with their family, other people--one of my favorites is when one of the students had her camera off, but sometimes when she turned it on, it was clear that she was a nurse in a hospital. So her camera accidentally went on and like, she was in the hospital in the class. And like there was like a someone they were working on. And I was just like, Hey, it's okay. Go take care of that person and then you can come back. We understand, we appreciate your love of our language and culture, but don't worry it'll be here go, go help that person. But so that's-- for me, that's-- yeah, for me, as somebody who learned the language as a second language, it's key, right? Because, languages, you know, it's key to have a variety of spaces to meet a variety of needs. Sometimes people assume that you need one space or like one proposal, and that's simply not the case. Certain types of learners can use certain types of programs of learning, but heritage learners are so different. Heritage learners of languages even--are so dramatically different because even the excitement that somebody feels in learning the language can block them in learning the language. Because what they feel like, I should, I should be able to say this. I'm Chamorro. Doesn't my DNA give me an advantage? Your DNA doesn't really give you an advantage. Like there's ways that you--there's ways that your sort of, your spiritual connection, your cultural connection, it can help you. But it's not like downloading an app. 00:45:39.264 --> 00:50:13.034 And so from,--so June (June Pangelinan), and most people that are in the immersion program that we're having here at San Marcos, they were my Zoom language students. So June Pangelinan started--and Clarissa Mendiola, they started in, 2020. And then June actually came to Guam the following year. And she met with me. 'cause I work at the, as the curator at the Guam Museum. And she met with me when I was giving a number of my language students who had come on island at the same time. She met with me after I gave them a tour of the museum. And she asked me, she said, you know, coming to Guam and then like, finding that like my family, even those who speak Chamorro won't speak Chamorro to me. And I know it's hard for people to understand because there's, there's thousands, there's still tens of thousands of Chamorro speakers. But you also have to remember that they're not there to serve you and the language. So you have to create a relationship with them. And sometimes students have trouble with that 'cause they feel like, my grandma speaks Chamorro, she should just speak to me in Chamorro. Your grandma has a lot of--there's a lot of issues involved. Like, you need to, you know, you need to make your grandma feel loved and trusted and cared for. Like your grandma probably, she may have been a survivor of World War II in Guam, the Japanese occupation, she was probably punished for speaking Chamorro. So when you say, hey, just speak to me in Chamorro, you're like bumping up against a lot of things and you can help her get past those things, but your desire for her to teach you is not enough. She's got a lot of blocks and you can help her get through those. But part of it is decentering the self, not learning through the ego, not learning through the ego. That's like, that's the danger for heritage learners learning through the ego. It's the worst. So June had had that experience where she had like prepared herself to be on Guam and then her family that spoke Chamorro, like really didn't speak Chamorro to her. Like she tried, but they wouldn't, they would just speak English to her. And it's--the dynamics are tricky. 'cause for most people you wanna be understood, right? And for most people, we have cognitive maps of the world. We see people in languages. And so if you see a particular person, a particular body, if there's a particular place, a lot of times our minds assign a language to it instinctively. And it doesn't mean you can't use any language there, but what happens is that your brain part of it will fire up and you'll enter--So like when I walk in here, oh, English, English. But when I go, you know, if I go into my grandma and grandpa's house, oh, Chamorro, Chamorro. And so having people kind of understand that. But so for June, she asked me, she's like, do you think it would be possible to create like a program, like an immersion program where students can like level up their learning? And I was like, of course. Will you help organize it? Because if you agree to help, then I will absolutely teach it and I will help organize it, but I just don't have the time or ability to like run the program. And so June, as they say in Chamorro, geftao, very, very generous, gof geftao. She took that task on in 2022. And then her and then Clarissa took the task on in 2023 the second year. And then this year we decided to bring it out to the diaspora because there are far more Chamorros that live out in the diaspora than live in the islands at this point. But there's almost no infrastructure out here for language learning. And so, it's been beautiful. It's been beautiful. Like, creating these spaces. It's also very exhausting. This type of work is so exhausting, but seeing sort of people come to the culture, come to the language, even just hearing the differences from day one to day five in terms of how much Chamorro they're using, it's difficult because we don't practice sort of like an aggressive immersion model. Because I always tell people, you know, aggressive immersion models can be effective, but they are also not fun. 00:50:13.034 --> 00:52:16.784 Like, one of our participants in the first year, Jesse Lujan Bennett, she has a--her husband is Maori and he-- she was in a Chamorro immersion program, he was in a Maori immersion program that same year. And so in our program, people were like crying every day about sort of their identity, coming to terms with things. And then Jesse asked her husband, are you guys crying every day? And he's like, no? It's a language immersion program. Why would we like do that? We're here to learn a language. And so--but it's a--one of these things is-- so one of --at least for me, the way that I see it is that it's a language and culture immersion program. And so what you're doing is you're giving people this robust connection to language and culture. You're giving them language for sure, but you are also trying to forge a connection that will increase the chances that they will continue to learn, or that they will continue to take up to Chamorro causes, whether at their work, in their family, in in life, social media, whatever. But just so that in--because--and it's kind of tricky because yeah, we're in the classroom all day and then part of me just wants to say no. Like, if you just wanna learn the language, then there has to be less space for you to talk about your feelings. But I also recognize that if you do that, then people may come away from this and say well--'cause this is the danger of second, you know, heritage learners, is that they don't have to learn the language. There's oftentimes not like a--there's a desire to learn it, perhaps like an identity based desire to learn it. But if it's unpleasant, then they simply will stop learning it. And so that's like the balance for it. If it's a bootcamp, then they'll just stop learning. 00:52:16.784 --> 00:53:31.425 And so that's the trade off. That's the trade off is trying to find a balance there where people get as much of the language as possible, but they also have the space where they can kind of come express their identity, talk about their feelings. Which unfortunately because of where they're at in their language level, has to be in English. And then--but fundamentally though, all of this puts them in a better position that they will come back to the Zoom classes to keep learning, or they will take up learning in another way in their family. Because this is about permeating the foundation of who they are as opposed--So oftentimes what we say is more than words, sort of the more aggressive language immersion models are words, words, conversation. You give people that and that's what they regurgitate. We have a more holistic model, which has its advantages, has its dis disadvantages, but it is rooted in this idea of that we are shaping sort of the larger person and their identity. So that hopefully yeah, they won't--this isn't their only experience in learning Chamorro. (Glances at the clock) Oh yeah. Five more minutes.. 00:53:31.425 --> 00:53:38.235 Oh wow! May I ask a question? 00:53:38.235 --> 00:53:38.244 Sure. 00:53:38.244 --> 00:53:55.255 I wanted to go back to 16-year-old you when your grandparents invited you to come home. What made you decide to say yes? Like what were you--where was your mind when you said yes? Was there any hesitation. 00:53:55.255 --> 00:57:24.804 At that time--there was definitely some hesitation, but at that time I was just really unhappy with sort of being in where my family was living in California and then just not knowing who I was. And not having any ability to like--not having any real answers. And, yeah. And so looking back on it, and I think part of it too, at least at that time, I was feeling frustrated with my mom and my stepdad and I wanted to kind of get a break from them and get away. And then on Guam I would be more free with my grandparents. And so I think a lot of it came down to that, just wanting to kind of get away. And I wouldn't have admitted at that time that I had questions about who I was. But, I definitely had those questions. I had no idea, like I didn't know where I fit in. And it's always been difficult for me as sort of like a--as a mixed race man with light complected, skin, dark, you know, sometimes dark features, dark hair, and then sometimes sort of passing, sometimes not passing and then never knowing when it's gonna work. So even like where my mom stayed in California in Atascadero, like I remember as a teenager looking for a job and I just went--there's a help wanted sign in like some sort of like antique store. And then I walked in and then like the owner basically says, no, not you, not your kind out. And I was just like, what? And I was just like--I mean, it was a very racially segregated town at that time. I mean, now it's a little bit more gentrified as people move up to escape cities and stuff. But at that time it was basically a lot of, farms and stuff and people that worked on the farms and people that owned the farms. And so--but it was everywhere I went. So like, I remember walking into a comic bookstore in San Luis Obispo once and I was walking around 'cause I didn't have a car 'cause my mother was working and I was waiting for her to finish. And then I just had found a stick and I was walking aong--so I was just like walking with like a stick. And then like, I walked into the store and then the owner was like, you need to get out of here. We don't allow weapons in here. And I'm like, it's just, it's just a stick. He's like, no, no. That's a deadly weapon in the right hands. And I'm like, I don't know how to use it as a deadly weapon. And he's like, you need to get outta here. And I'm just like, what? So it was like--I didn't--so this--these sorts of things happened a lot like in just these ways. That was always like surprising. And one of the things that always was hurtful for me was that my--the middle brother Jack. So there's, from my mom and my dad, there's Jack--there's me, Jack and Jeremy. And then my middle brother Jack is very white passing. And so when we would--like, so when we would go into places, like he would never get harassed or never like--but then I would sort of get like rude treatment or get followed in stores and stuff like that. And so like --and so it was just sort of like this weird thing like where do I belong? Like what is this? 00:57:24.804 --> 01:00:18.525 I don't even understand like why people hate me or don't like me. And I had--didn't have enough consciousness at that time to even like be like a brown power sort of person or like racial consciousness. It just, it just sucked. And it made me angry at my father, my white father. 'cause he definitely didn't understand a lot of that. 'cause my white father at that time, both of my parents kind of didn't understand. They just saw me as being sort of like a rebellious teen. And then even my brother didn't quite understand at that time either. And so, going to Guam made perfect sense because I--it took a little while, but I found a place where I belonged. Yeah. And that was like a great feeling. just like thinking--and I feel it here too, when my kids, who are my teenagers who are here with us, when they're go around and they sort of feel--they kind of like it that you go around in San Marcos and no one knows you. And I'm like, yeah, I know that. But then after a while, you might miss the fact that no one knows you. 'cause I start to miss that if I'm in the States for too long and you don't know anybody. I miss that. 'cause yes, it is draining and exhausting to be on a small island where lots of people know you and you have all these connections and obligations, but it's also a full life. And so for me, what I loved about going home was that I became tun Jack's--tun is a sign--a marker of respect, tun Jack Lujan's grandson. And that gave me a place, and it was a place that I struggled with sometimes, but I eventually came to like it. Representing my grandfather, representing my family. You know, I'm not the one that you go to if you want food for the party, but if you want a lecture about, you know, Guam history, I'm the one that you go to if you want research on our family background. I'm the one that you go to if you want something translated into Chamorro, I'm the one that you go to. And so finding a place that was going back to Guam was kind of the start of that. And then not knowing, you know, just all of this kind of ambiguity. And then finally realizing like going home and then standing next to my grandparents and then being their grandson, and then feeling the pressure off of me. Like, oh, I'm their grandson. This--these are my roots. And at first, not liking that a lot, but then eventually accepting it and embracing it and liking it and enjoying it a lot. But, so that's, that's one of the reasons why. 01:00:18.525 --> 01:00:42.905 Your grandparents obviously had a huge influence on you. And you also spoke briefly by your Auntie Eleanor. Can you tell me who--what other people had a profound effect on, on your life path, whether or not they were personal connections or even, public figures who you looked up to at the time, and now whether they're in your community or not? 01:00:42.905 --> 01:00:57.434 Oh, yeah. Let me think here. There's a number of people that I could definitely highlight. I'm trying to think if I want to do more language focused or-- 01:00:57.434 --> 01:01:06.105 Yeah. Maybe a, maybe a bit of both. 01:01:06.105 --> 01:03:03.485 So, yeah, one of the things that I like to do in the way that I teach and the way that I engage people is to kind of talk about sort of the figures from our history that can kind of inspire them to go past, their feelings of insecurity. So like, for example, yesterday we were focusing in the language immersion program on Chamorro music. And so we divided into groups. Groups had to sing some Chamorro songs. They also had to translate an English song into Chamorro and then sing it for everybody. And then today--oh, and then I talked about, for example, one of sort of the most famous Chamorro singers, a man named Johnny Sablan, who's still alive. And so I always use him as an example for learners, because when Johnny Sablan was 20 years old, he had already a career as like a teeny bopper recording English music in California. But he had an experience when he was going to college in Monterey, California, where he was part of like an ethnic culture club. An ethnic music club. And when his friends told him, Hey, Johnny, can you share some Guamese songs with us? And he realized, because Johnny Sablan could not speak Chamorro, he realized that he didn't know any Chamorro songs except for like religious songs, church songs. He didn't know any Chamorro songs. And so that experience, that experience basically led him then to go and seek out his elders and collect Chamorro songs. And then what he did is he sold his motorbike that he had in California, and he bought studio time. And instead of continuing to record in English, he decided to record the first ever Chamorro language album. 01:03:03.485 --> 01:05:45.505 And I told the students, and I always remind students, and I say, he did this even though he wasn't fluent in Chamorro. So he recorded elders who worked with him to pronounce the words correctly, to help him memorize the words. And even when you hear that first album you can tell that he messes up. And even the Chamorro musicians who did the backup music teased him and said, what are you doing making a Chamorro record? You can't even speak the language. You shouldn't be doing this. And he said, somebody's gotta do it. And so I always tell them, I say, I always try to highlight the figures who push against the grain, who push back, because I always say, for my students in my work, I always invoke the saying, Anggen ti hita pues håyi? if not us, then who? So if Johnny Sablan hadn't recorded that first ever Chamorro vinyl record in 1968, when would that have happened? Who would've done it? Like, who was the right person to do it? 'cause people told Johnny Sablan, you're not the right person to do it. And so I love to share stories like that. So every time I start a a new Zoom class, I always present a figure from our history who was a pioneer in the language in some way to help inspire the students. And usually there're people that I knew who inspired me as well. So for me, I remained inspired by Johnny Sablan. 'cause that idea that you would put yourself out there when you couldn't even fluently speak Chamorro, but to make a whole record and then just put it out there, it's--in Chamorro they say matatnga, brave. It's audacious. And so for language learners, you need that nowadays. You need some bravery, you need some audacious. And so I'm always--I always like to share stories like that to inspire students and say, look, Johnny Sablan is now a symbol of Chamorro culture and language. He was where you are at now. He couldn't speak Chamorro. He had a grandmother who didn't speak English. So he kind of had to pantomime and make do, and he could understand a little bit with what she said. But he struggled in Chamorro. He could not speak it, but he said that every people have an identity. Every people have a song. And even if the songs that he makes are different, that the music, the instruments have changed. It's important that the Chamorro people have music just like everybody else. 01:05:45.505 --> 01:05:53.394 And so I, I love that idea. Just like, don't get stuck up in the idea. Like, just do it. 01:05:53.394 --> 01:05:54.605 Have you ever met him? 01:05:54.605 --> 01:06:10.385 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I know Johnny, he's still around. He's still around. I always try to sit down with an interview for him, but he's been sick for a while. So he's difficult to interview nowadays. But one of these days I'll get to sit down and just spend the afternoon with him. 01:06:10.385 --> 01:06:19.000 Oh, I hope so. I have so many more follow up questions, but I think we have to wrap up, unfortunately. 01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:20.097 Oh, no. 01:06:20.097 --> 01:06:24.813 Is there anything, feel free to (gestures at water) yeah. 01:06:24.813 --> 01:06:26.385 Oh yeah. 01:06:26.385 --> 01:06:33.224 Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything I should have asked about? Anything you want to cover? oh, 01:06:33.224 --> 01:06:40.065 No, no. Thank you for letting me talk and ramble. 01:06:40.065 --> 01:06:42.090 Can I ask one more question? 01:06:42.090 --> 01:06:43.536 Of course. Of course. 01:06:43.536 --> 01:06:55.784 You talk about your children a lot, your four kids. What kind of world do you want to see for them? Whether Chamorro related climate, anything. Like what's your vision for them? 01:06:55.784 --> 01:08:56.185 Oh yeah. That was really one of the reasons why I started to teach the Chamorro language, was that I was speaking to my kids in Chamorro, my older kids, my current teenagers. And I was realizing though, that as they get older, there was no other kids their age that could speak Chamorro. They have no cousins that can speak Chamorro. There's some other children, 'cause there are like, immersion schools for youth that can, that are trying to bring up speakers. But in general, there was not speakers. And so I could see them that I would speak Chamorro to them, but for the rest of the world, they would just speak English and the language would kind of fade away. So I just started--so one motivation for starting just the organic community classes was just to try to get more people to speak Chamorro. And in a university, there's all sorts of issues, bureaucracy, and it can be very good to have that, but it can also be very problematic. So I just said, let's, let's do it as easy as possible, just a coffee shop and people show up and then, you know, so people take this on, not because they want credit, not because of this. People just show up because they wanna show up. And so I do feel definitely depressed at times because I know--so for example, with my two older children, they speak to each other in English. They speak to me only in Chamorro. And I only speak to them in Chamorro, but they speak to each other in English. And so it was something which I struggled with for a very long time. Trying to kind of get them more comfortable and confident in the language. But, but ultimately it's hard because there's no--studies show that, you know, that young children, they tend not to adopt the language of their families. They tend to adopt the language of their peers. 01:08:56.185 --> 01:11:29.795 And so if there's no one speaking Chamorro around them, then kids aren't gonna like be picking up Chamorro. They're not gonna be using it 'cause they don't assign it social value. And they certainly don't assign social value to something from their parents at that time. So yes. But a lot of what I do is sort of related to trying to improve things for them. I've told, so Sumåhi, my oldest is 17 and Sumåhi's very good at writing in Chamorro. She serves as the youth representative for the Chamorro Language Commission in Guam. And she does not like to acknowledge it, but is a star for all of the students here. Everyone here like adores Sumåhi. 'cause they see her as like the future of the language. And so when I talk to my older kids, I tell them it's like, you know, there's gonna be a place for you in this language, in this culture. Like, I'm, creating a place for you. It's up to you what you wanna do with it. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to do what I say. Soon you'll be old enough that you can make your own choices. But I do hope that you come home, I do hope that you keep this alive and then--'cause the idea that this language has existed for thousands of years, but then within the lifetime of my children, it could disappear. Makes me very sad. And so for my older child, she understands it more. She definitely understands it more. Although she's trying to figure out things in terms of her own life choices, like where she wants to go to college and what she wants to do. And she doesn't really like the fame that she has. 'cause people on Guam come up to her and they say, Sumåhi, you're so cool. Sumåhi, you're so cool. Can I get a picture with you? And Sumåhi's like, who are you (Speaking Chamorro). Who's this person? And so--so yes. But in time I'm hoping-- I give them the space so that they don't have to participate if they don't want to and that they can do--They--But I always tell them, I hope you find your way back. 'cause this is, you know, this makes our family special, this makes us special. And so. Yeah. 01:11:29.795 --> 01:13:46.585 'cause what I always like to tell people is there's so many different ways that you can express love of your culture, of your identity, but your language is one that cannot be replaced with other sort of exchangeable forms. So I always tease people and say that you can buy a thousand shirts that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand recipes that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand pieces of jewelry, get a thousand tattoos all over your body. But none of those things, and all those things are important, but none of them replace the connection that your language gives you to your past. And so the difference though is that you still cannot buy your language the way you can buy a t-shirt, where you can buy a tattoo, where you can buy food. And so that's part of my goal here, is to impress upon people that your language is an irreplaceable part of your culture. And so for those of you who are--who wanna take on the task of keeping it alive, you keep alive a connection to our ancestors that, yeah, that is actually more durable and more powerful than a lot of the other things that you can buy at a festival or online. Yeah, yeah. It's true because, for the Chamorro people, we were the first people--we were likely the first people to settle the Pacific Islands to leave somewhere in Asia, in boats, in ships, and then settle the Marianas Islands 3,500 - 4,000 years ago. And so I always try to impress upon people that what we brought with us, a lot of that has changed dramatically. But in our language, so many of the words that we use today, those are the words that were first spoken with, the first breaths that came over with those first sellers. 01:13:46.585 --> 01:14:10.524 And so it's a harder road to become fluent in your language, but it is a deeper connection. And so this is not to say that if you don't know your language, you are less of a Chamorro, but you cannot substitute your connection to your language with food tattoos or, or t-shirts. Yeah. 01:14:10.524 --> 01:14:14.045 Thank you. 01:14:14.045 --> 01:14:14.965 (Coughs) Oh, excuse me. 01:14:14.965 --> 01:14:17.604 That's Alright. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Michael. 01:14:17.604 --> 01:14:19.425 Oh, no problem. To Michael. 01:14:19.425 --> 01:14:21.965 It was a pleasure. 01:14:21.965 --> 01:14:23.965 Oh no, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. Description An account of the resource Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-089 Subject The topic of the resource Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Language revival Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Grandparents Education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-07-12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii Guam Atascadero (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rick Blankemeier OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. SC027-067 01:28:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewing industry ; Stone Brewing Company ; Belching Beaver Brewery ; Modern Times Beer + Coffee ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County ; Brewing industry -- Quality control ; Brewing industry -- Accidents Rick Blankemeier Judith Downie sound BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bd5e888c4de2b7cf6584dfe5ca3b1bcb.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction Oral history of Rick Blankemeier on January 3rd, 2025 by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 150 Getting Started in Brewing Rick Blankemeier discusses his education as well as how he got his start in brewing through his wife who got him his first home brew kit. Brewing ; Home brewing ; Colorado 0 618 Quality Control Manager Rick talks about his work at Stone Brewery, Modern Times Brewing, and Belching Beaver Brewery as a quality control manager and the collaborative spirit of the San Diego brewing scene. collaboration ; brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times ; Belching Beaver 0 1038 Winning Stone's Spotlight Competition and Leaving Stone for the Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler won Stone Brewing's first Spotlight competition by creating Spröcketbier. After spending years as a quality control manager at Stone Brewing, Rick jumped on the opportunity to become a Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times, another brewery in San Diego. He talks about the transition from one position to another and how he needed to reshape his way of thinking to encompass a larger picture of the brewing business. Manager ; Director of Brewing Operations ; Brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times Brewing 0 1751 Designing Spröcketbier's label and a Tribute to Matt Courtright Rick talks about how he came up with the Spröcketbier label design and how that gave tribute to Matt Courtright who lost his life in a forklift accident while working at Stone. That accident had a big impact on how Rick approached safety while working for Modern Times and Belching Beaver. Matt Courtright ; Label Design ; Workplace accident ; Workplace safety 0 2186 The Physical Toll of Brewing Rick talks about how the manual labor of brewing at scales like Stone, Modern Times, and Belching Beaver can have an impact on the quality of life and health of workers later on in life. 0 2301 Marketing Spröcketbier Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler were flown around the country to go to different brewing events and talk about Spröcketbier. Spröcketbier ; Work trip ; all expenses paid ; Brewing events 0 2746 The Impact of the COVID Pandemic on Brewing Rick talks about how the COVID-19 pandemic impacted the brewing industry in San Diego. COVID ; Pandemic ; Shutdowns 0 3537 Belching Beaver and International Relations Rick talks about being let go by Modern Times and going back to his roots as a Quality Control Manager at Belching Beaver Brewing. At Belching Beaver he developed relationships with Chinese distributers while educating them on the quality control process. international relations ; quality control ; Belching Beaver 0 4013 Leaving Brewing Rick talks about how both he and his wife decided to leave the brewing industry during COVID because of the poor treatment of service industry workers and the rocky ups and downs of the economy. 0 4254 Teaching at UCSD Rick talks about his time teaching at UCSDs Brewing Extension program. He started as a substitute instructor whenever the courses' primary instructor was absent and eventually became the primary teacher. UCSD ; Teaching ; Brewing Extension program 0 4736 Still Enjoying Craft Beer Rick talks about how he still enjoys the craft beer scene even though he is no longer involved with brewing. His favorite watering hole is Battle Mage Brewing in Vista, California. 0 Oral history Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:06.264 And that, and send that to you later. So. Okay. Well, Rick, if you will start by introducing yourself and what you do now. 00:00:06.264 --> 00:00:20.065 Oh, okay. Um, yeah. My name is Rick Blankemeier. I am a, right now I'm the quality, one of the quality engineers at a place called Hydronautics, which makes reverse osmosis filtration membranes. 00:00:20.065 --> 00:00:22.925 Ah, So you're still kind of in consumable beverages in a way. 00:00:22.925 --> 00:00:25.675 A little bit, yeah. In like the water side of things, 00:00:25.675 --> 00:00:25.684 Uhhuh. 00:00:25.684 --> 00:00:53.195 Like we make desalination elements. And, stuff for wastewater treatment and, uh, dairy processing. That's like one of our big things we do is make elements to separate the curds and the whey in cheese making. So, but we do sell elements to breweries too. And, like Belching Beaver, I know buys them and Stone does for all their reclamation operations that they have there still. So, yeah we're pretty happy about that. 00:00:53.195 --> 00:01:01.244 Yeah. So are they any of them using your systems for the water that they're using to brew with? Or is it more for their reclamation? 00:01:01.244 --> 00:01:30.000 Uh. Both. Yeah. So we have different elements that, you know, perform differently. The--one of our elements is definitely better for just--brackish--we call it brackish solutions. It's basically filtering city water or even just like slightly heavier salt water. But then we have desal stuff, which they don't use, but then we also have wastewater reclamation elements that are more specialized for that. And like high pH environments. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:37.045 And certainly something that we need around here. With our abbreviated waters supplies, which, you know, yeah. I've grown up with. 00:01:37.045 --> 00:01:53.114 Actually most of our clients are customers are in the Middle East and India. Actually. It's like, where a lot of it's being used. We actually sell the desal elements to the Gaza Strip's desal plant for drinking water for all the Gaza folks there. So-- 00:01:53.114 --> 00:01:56.305 And there's probably a lot of that that's been blown up and ruined and-- 00:01:56.305 --> 00:02:06.444 Yeah. Well, they try not to target infrastructure like that Because it also feeds drinking water into other parts of Israel too. So, I think it'll, yeah-- 00:02:06.444 --> 00:02:09.693 Yeah. So there's some self self concern going on there. 00:02:09.693 --> 00:02:10.638 A little bit. 00:02:10.638 --> 00:02:10.875 Oh, man. 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:12.884 Yeah. It's a pretty bad situation over there. 00:02:12.884 --> 00:02:15.568 Well, but that certainly is, is keeping you busy. 00:02:15.568 --> 00:02:16.104 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:02:16.104 --> 00:02:19.895 So anyway, well, we'll--we're gonna start delving into your past. 00:02:19.895 --> 00:02:19.905 Okay. 00:02:19.905 --> 00:02:26.432 And of course, focusing on the brewing industry. But first, where are you from and what's your educational process or path been? 00:02:26.432 --> 00:04:05.625 Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, so I, my, both my parents were in the military, so we moved around a fair amount, but when I was younger, if I was gonna say like where I'm from, it'd be Colorado. And we settled down in Aurora when my parents were stationed there, and then they retired. Yeah, so we--I stayed there from basically ages, uh, six until we moved out here for work. But, uh, they--my education path's pretty similar, but I got in, I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder, and I did a combination master's, uh, a bachelor's/master's degree in chemical engineering with an emphasis on bioengineering. So I did a lot of, uh, actually it was specialized in tissue engineering. And then once I graduated, decided not to do anything with that and went into natural gas. Um, and so I did a natural gas plant and worked, you know, to set up a process for turning natural gas into hydrogen for fuel cell cars. And also for other hydrogen needs that a lot of other, you know, applications in the petrochemical business. So we'd sell hydrogen to other plants for that. And then, uh, I hated it. And so, my wife and I, well, my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, got me a homebrew kit and, uh, when I was kind of miserable and really enjoyed that. So I found a job out here, and that's when we moved out here in April of 2010. To work at Stone. And I started as a brewer and worked my way up to the quality manager there. 00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:09.844 Do you think it was advantageous to work as a brewer before you went into quality management? 00:04:09.844 --> 00:04:51.944 I think so. Yeah. Um, brewers, at least when I worked with them, I'm not sure if that's the same now, but they definitely respected you more if you worked on the floor. They called the office people, carpet walkers, a lot. And, uh, which they're--a lot of 'em are very necessary for the operation of business. But in terms of the amount of respect, they definitely respected anyone who was, you know, worked on the floor at least, and a recent amount of time, so like, and plus I had to be on the floor a lot, you know to help out with certain things. And, you know, I still enjoyed brewing, so I helped out with brewing a fair amount too. During that time. 00:04:51.944 --> 00:04:57.754 So going back to your home brewing, do you remember the first beer that you brewed? 00:04:57.754 --> 00:06:24.605 I think it was a red ale. It was just a, it was a, just a kit that came with, I think, their home brew kit that my wife got me. And so I brewed that up and kind of got hooked on that. I do remember, it was really funny though because like we just moved in together--this is in Colorado, and I needed shoulder surgery because we went on a rafting trip and my--I was like, try, I got--our boat got turned over in the rapids, and then I tried to swim for it and my arm, like, came out of its socket. So then I had to, I know it was pretty--and it was one of those things where it, uh, tore a labrum, so it was kind of loosey-goosey. So if I like stretched too much on it, it would just like pop out. And I was like, ah! So I eventually got that repaired. And so, my wife kind of helped me with my convalescence with that. But right before I got into surgery, I brewed a beer and put it in the closet. And it just went crazy and kind of, I think over pitched yeast on it, and it kind of just put like, all the clothes in there got like sprayed with yeasty beer, and then she's like, yeah--I was like recovering from soldier shoulder surgery. And she was like, "you clean this up now." So anyways, we had--we had a little rocky start to the home brewing thing, but she eventually-- 00:06:24.605 --> 00:06:26.086 Well, she stuck with you-- 00:06:26.086 --> 00:06:26.721 She did! 00:06:26.721 --> 00:06:27.770 You know, you learn not to over pitch your yeast. 00:06:27.770 --> 00:06:30.996 She got involved in the brewing industry too, so-- 00:06:30.996 --> 00:06:31.722 Oh, really? 00:06:31.722 --> 00:07:10.964 After that, and she was, uh, she was a tour guide at Stone for a bit and then she was the--basically the admin assistant for the brewing department for a few years. And then she left there to go work at Lost Abbey for a bit at the Confessional and, uh, what's it called? The--Cardiff. And was a bartender there for a number of years and really enjoyed it. So she's--she and I are both out of beer now. She's working as a dev test for medical device company in Carlsbad. So. I know. It's like, well, we're actually earning money now, that's crazy. 00:07:10.964 --> 00:07:18.132 Yeah. Well, yeah, you kind of touched on a--on a pretty common theme and you know, you do it for the passion. You do not do it for the income. 00:07:18.132 --> 00:07:19.725 No, no, no. 00:07:19.725 --> 00:07:35.754 You know, you're--I'm--we're watching all these breweries right now closing, and it's this, and, so many of 'em gone up for sale and nobody's buying 'em because they just, you know, they're, "yeah, I'm gonna pour all this money in and not make any, so, you know, can't do that right now. It's just not feasible." 00:07:35.754 --> 00:08:15.000 Yeah. I mean, I feel like probably from like 20--you know, 2006 to about 2018 or so, there was like this, I don't know, I feel like it was more of like a gold rush mentality. I'm sure you have better perspective on it than I do, but being in the industry, it felt like people were just getting into it and thinking that either they would make a pretty decent living on doing it, and they were homebrewers or whatnot, or they were trying to strike it rich somehow and it was felt like that, you know, if you got into this niche and did well, you can make a bunch of money at beer. And I don't think until it's like economies of scale bigger, you don't really make a lot of money with that. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:48.004 Yeah. You don't. Yeah. I mean, the margin is way too small on your individual glass or can of beer to be making a fortune until you go, like you say, the economies of scale. But, uh, that's something that a lot of people went into because they were making beer and all their friends--they had a passion for it. Their friends told them they were making great beer, you really ought to open up a brewery I'll put some money behind you and yet nobody really had a true business plan or an understanding, or especially when 2020 came around an allowance for some kind of crisis. 00:08:48.004 --> 00:09:27.065 Right! Yeah. Like a kind of a, you know, the emergency funds or like a plan for anything like that happening. Yeah. It was, um, I mean, that was how I actually wanted to get into beer in the first place, was that I wanted to like work at a brewery, so I knew what it was like. So, you know, when I asked, you know, friends, family, and investors for, you know, starting my own brewery one day, that I know what I'm talking about. And like, what I was expecting. And then of course, like after the years went on, I was like, I am, there's no way in hell I'm opening a brewery. There's so much work and there's so much capital in terms of all the stainless you have to buy and-- 00:09:27.065 --> 00:09:53.284 The hours you have to put in the headaches. I mean, the amount of legislation and just reporting and--oh yeah. My head swims when I look at all that stuff and just go, you know, and if you go into it because it's an emotional passion, be because it's creative. That is exactly the sort of thing that you don't do, don't excel at, hate, you know, things like that. But you were wise. You got into it and you saw what was going on and you said, oh, wait a minute. 00:09:53.284 --> 00:10:18.835 Yeah. I mean, it was fun and I really enjoyed, and I learned a lot and, you know, did a lot of work, especially on the quality side and learned a lot about what breweries should be doing in terms of quality assurance, quality control, and that I just wasn't seeing a lot of it. And the breweries that succeeded ultimately, like, had really good marketing and really good beer. I mean, that's essentially what it boiled down to. 00:10:18.835 --> 00:10:52.335 Well, and the good beer goes back to the quality control because there are a lot of the smaller breweries that don't really have the capacity to do really thorough quality control. They're doing the best they can, but it shows when the beer, you know, you've got this one beer that's one of maybe your staple beers that you've always got on tap, but it changes from brew cycle to brew cycle, which part of that is the ingredients change, but your quality control is where it's supposed to step in and say, "oh, wait a minute, this isn't what people are going to expect, and what do we do to fix it?" 00:10:52.335 --> 00:11:34.485 Right. Yeah. And that was kind of--and oh, I was the sort of defacto, being at Stone, and then later at Modern Times a little bit and--but also at Belching Beaver--at Stone, I was definitely like, I felt like the quality control person for all the breweries in the area because they would come, it's like, "Hey, Rick, there's this issue. What should I do?" And I'm like, well, you know, sometimes I'd be like, oh yeah, I'll maybe do this and this and see if it works and they're like, "Oh, it worked really good!" "Thanks Rick!" Uh, but then there were other times where I'm like, uh, dump it. I'm sorry, dude. There's not much you can do without that. Yeah. It's, uh, that's kind of SOL. I just, I would not serve that in any sense or form to you know, a customer. 00:11:34.485 --> 00:11:47.575 Yeah. I mean, and that's hard news for somebody, but really you're not doing in favors to say, hey, go ahead and try this and see if you can resurrect it when you just know is not gonna work. That's just, you know, that's not the San Diego spirit-- 00:11:47.575 --> 00:11:47.585 No. 00:11:47.585 --> 00:12:17.105 --San Diego. Everybody's been so collaborative with each other. That's one of the things, when we first started looking at founding the Brewchive®, I started talking to some brewers and they all said, oh, you need to talk to so and so, and you need to talk to so and so. And giving me all these names, of course, of people who I didn't know but it was just like, people really like each other. I would've thought in an industry where you're all trying to cover the same consumer base you'd be at each other's throats and that's not what San Diego does. Very different. 00:12:17.105 --> 00:13:22.085 No. And that collaborative spirit, I feel like is what really elevated a lot of other breweries and even with like collaborations and everything, it seems like that, it's like definitely an exchanging of information, but also just like better practices too. Felt like the breweries, like I know for sure that I went to other breweries, not even in San Diego, but other places and, you know, like Chicago or down south in like Atlanta and all that. And I saw see things, and I was like, oh, this is a really brilliant way of doing this. Oh, I'm definitely, you know, as our--after Mitch left Stone, Joel Grosser was the kind of brewmaster there, and he'd always say like, yeah, if you see like something at another brewery that was like, better practices, even if it's like just like safety related, or better cleanliness or whatever? Yeah. Steal that, steal with pride. He used to say that, and I was like, and he came from Anheuser-Busch, so I'm not sure--(laughter)--I'm not sure if that means anything, but I was like, yeah, steal with pride! 00:13:22.085 --> 00:13:24.004 Yeah. I like that saying. 00:13:24.004 --> 00:13:48.683 But, I mean it was about like, more about like seeing better ways of organizing things, cleaning things. Safety related, which I feel like is like every brewery would be like, yeah, no. like we understood that like a rising tide lifts all boats and everything. And we know that if a brewery was really bad, that would look--people, the average consumer, at least for the most part, we feel like doesn't really, like they lump all the craft beer in one, in like one bucket. 00:13:48.683 --> 00:13:50.485 Yeah. If one's bad, they're all gonna be bad. 00:13:50.485 --> 00:13:51.284 Yeah so that's-- 00:13:51.284 --> 00:13:51.524 That's not the way. 00:13:51.524 --> 00:14:24.000 So that's what we, I think we're trying to avoid and that's why I helped out so many other breweries with their quality control issues, was that, you know, (we) were at another company. They were like, oh, they're having quality control issues, good. So we're good. But then, yeah, I was actually encouraged at places like Stone and Belching Beaver to help out some other breweries with some of their issues as long as it didn't take away from my duties. But if it's like a phone call and be like, yeah, do this, do this, this, this, hang up, it's fine. And they didn't feel like it was like violating an NDA or anything along those lines. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:42.325 Right. Did you find much opportunity with all your, with your working to go visit other breweries? That seems to be a real constant around San Diego is a lot of the brewers, front of house, back of house, whoever they go and they drink at other breweries as well, you know. It's not like, oh, I gotta spend all my money at my own brewery. I'm gonna go visit everybody else's and find stuff I like. 00:14:42.325 --> 00:15:19.485 Well I feel like it was actually the opposite, is that we didn't wanna spend any of our money at our own brewery because they weren't paying us enough, and then we'd give them back our money. So, yeah. I mean, me personally, I would always drink other people's beer. I would only like bring, you know, the free beer I'd get at Stone, just because I'm like, here, have some beer from Stone. And it was always polite whenever you went to other breweries is to bring gifts of your own beer and everything there. And then they would also in turn, give you free beer and like a tour of the place. And you get to see everything and that was, kind of that it was like a cultural exchange, it felt like. 00:15:19.485 --> 00:15:41.884 And you never know, you might wind up working with those people at some point too because there's so much cross pollination and job jumping for whatever reason within the local breweries. But then again, being collaborative and getting along with people, leaves those doors open where if you've always talked bad about another brewery, well, they're never gonna hire you if you did need a job somewhere else. You know, that's just not gonna happen. 00:15:41.884 --> 00:16:42.215 Although I have to have a confession that I did talk badly about Modern Times when, um, because Jacob McKean worked at Stone. And, I just, I--full like, you know, full confession. I was not, I did not enjoy him as a person in the very brief instances we worked, because he was on the marketing side, I was on the brewing side, but then he came in and did like, you know, some videos of like, me working the lab you know, the marketing stuff and he's like, you still write all this down? Like, why don't you use like spreadsheets and everything? I'm like, well, I do. I double enter. So then if I lose one or the other, like if you know, the shared drive fails, then at least I have like the paper copy of it because this is all important stuff in terms of quality control. If I can't look back and see like, oh yeah, this had this bacteria in it then, and then something happens, or, you know, it gets in a fire or lose all the saved data, then I don't have that reference to come back to. 00:16:42.215 --> 00:16:44.187 Or if you're walking around with a laptop and beer gets spilled in it. 00:16:44.187 --> 00:16:54.235 Which happens a lot. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just, I wasn't a fan of him. But then later on, I, uh, you know, when I applied for the job, I was like, oh, okay. I think he's kind of gotten a little bit less snooty. A little bit. 00:16:54.235 --> 00:17:10.755 Well, you know, and you know, when it's put to you in a certain way, sometimes your hackles just raise. I mean, it's like you're attacking the way I do things. And it works for me. So, you know, great. If it doesn't work for you, fine. But, so yeah. First impression sometimes. 00:17:10.755 --> 00:17:20.884 Yeah, I know. But in general though, I enjoyed the Modern Times beers. When the opportunity for a director brewing operations position opened up, that's where I went to it. 00:17:20.884 --> 00:17:25.164 Because that was, that would be a step up from where you were at Stone at the point. Right? 00:17:25.164 --> 00:17:58.865 Yeah. And I didn't really have a good--once I got to be Quality Manager, they kept putting people above me from outside from, usually from Anheuser-Busch. And, I was like, well, I don't really have a good career path. And even my boss at the time was like, when I put in my notice, he's like, "yeah, you know, it's, I don't see--I understand you don't really have like a path for growth here anymore." I'm like, yeah. 'cause you got, you've got where I wanted to go. But anyways. But after that, that's where I went to Modern Times for a little bit. It was only there for about two years before I went to Belching Beaver. 00:17:58.865 --> 00:18:08.345 So well before we leave Stone and jump to Modern Times and your experience there, of course, you know, you with Robbie Chandler--now, who is Robbie? 00:18:08.345 --> 00:19:06.983 So Robbie was the warehouse lead at Stone. He was the kind of the--he was the forklift jockey, the guy unloading the trucks. I think eventually became the warehouse supervisor there. But, you know, he was the guy, just big personality and just a bear of a man, big old beard and everything, and he and I just really got along well together. The funny thing was--is that when they announced that if you wanted to be part of the Spotlight competition you pair off with, you know, whoever you wanted to do it with. And so it came down to it. I was like, I signed up for it and then I was like, who do I want to brew with me? Oh, Robbie said he wanted to brew with me. And so I was like, Hey, Robbie, you want to come? He's like, oh, yeah, no, I'll brew with you. And I didn't realize that he had another partner that was already set up, so he just totally like, ditched that, that group, and then came over to my side and people were angry. It's like, I didn't, I didn't know. I just asked him. 00:19:06.983 --> 00:19:08.684 Yeah, yeah. You didn't poach him! 00:19:08.684 --> 00:19:15.085 I know I didn't, I had no idea. He didn't even tell me that. He was like, no, I'm with you on this one. So. 00:19:15.085 --> 00:19:22.384 Well. If he had been talking to you about brewing with you and that, that was the opportunity, I can kind of see why, but yeah, I can see feelings being being maybe a little bit hurt there too. 00:19:22.384 --> 00:19:34.525 And I mean, and bless Robbie, he's got such a good personality and such a, he was very jovial. He just didn't know as much about the beer brewing process as I did. So, you know, I basically-- 00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:36.204 He, he had not been home brewing then? 00:19:36.204 --> 00:19:52.434 He did a little bit of home brewing, but it wasn't like when we were coming up with a recipe, you know, I was just like, Hey, just feel free to jump in if you want, change anything. But I was thinking like, let's do something different, something kind of off the wall, at least-- 00:19:52.434 --> 00:19:53.674 Very Stone that way. 00:19:53.674 --> 00:20:17.404 Yeah. And let's do a black rye kölsch. And he is like, yeah, that sounds good. I'm like, no notes or anything? He's like, no, let's just do it. And I was like, okay. All right. So I guess we're doing a black rye kölsch. Sure. And we spent most of the other time talking about what we'd name it, and we were both fans of SNL and the sprockets skit that Mike Myers was on when he was on SNL. 00:20:17.404 --> 00:20:18.525 Boy, I don't even remember that one. 00:20:18.525 --> 00:20:23.684 Uh, it was like, um, the German ones. He's like, "Velcome to Shprockets, My name is Dieter," you know. 00:20:23.684 --> 00:20:24.674 Oh, okay. The Dieters. 00:20:24.674 --> 00:20:44.884 Yeah. The, yeah. And he is like, yeah, "Vould you like to touch my monkey?" You know, stuff like that. And I guess that's what with my German last name, he (was) always like, um, he's like, no, Rick, I do not to touch your monkey. But anyways, we were all goofing around and kind of riffing off each other and doing these silly little bits, but that's what we wanted to call it Sprocketbier. 00:20:44.884 --> 00:21:07.065 Okay. Okay. Well then that explains the name. I'll have to go back. And probably on YouTube there's some of those old, and rewatch those 'cause, it's been, it's been so, so long. So when you were designing that beer, did you have test batches that you made? How much time did you have to prepare for the competition and it-- 00:21:07.065 --> 00:21:21.204 We made one test batch before we brewed the kind of scaled up one on the small system at Stone. So I did, you know, we did that at Robbie's house 'cause he had a better house for that, to kind of brew on there. So we just did once. And-- 00:21:21.204 --> 00:21:24.355 Your wife probably wasn't real happy about you maybe having beer in the closet again. 00:21:24.355 --> 00:22:22.025 Well, she, uh, she was fine with it after that. We'd have better areas to store things at that point. But, yeah. But we brewed one batch of it, and it came out pretty well. We made--I made some adjustments to the amount of Carafa malt, which is like, that de-bittered black malt. We'd add to it. But after that, we just kind of scaled it up to the small system and brewed it. And yeah. It was Robbie and I kind of on there with the--under the supervision of Steve Gonzalez, who was the small batch manager. I think he still is at Stone, at this point. But, uh, yeah, no, we brewed that. And really, I was hoping to do well, like come in like the top three, but I really didn't expect to win on that. Well 'cause everyone else was like doing IPAs, like fun or other kinds of like, fun kind of Belgian-style beers. And I wasn't really expecting to actually do anything too revolutionary with it. 00:22:22.025 --> 00:22:23.724 Who were the judges, do you know? 00:22:23.724 --> 00:22:27.904 Yeah, it was Greg, Steve and Mitch. Yeah. So. 00:22:27.904 --> 00:22:28.859 The highest level. 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:29.815 Highest level. Yeah. It was-- 00:22:29.815 --> 00:22:32.914 There was nobody to go to if you wanted to contest the results. 00:22:32.914 --> 00:23:54.924 Well, I mean the whole concept of the Spotlight series came about from sort of the amount of unhappiness of the brewers of not having ways of being creative. So, I think it was in 2013 or 2012 or 2013, they did like the first employee survey. And, they did like a kind of a presentation on that and for everyone, and kind of understood that like there was a lot of unhappy people working at Stone at the time . And, the brewers more specifically were very unhappy with the lack of creative control that they had, which is, I mean, looking back at it, I'm like, it's, you know--it wasn't necessary. I don't know, like it was, we had a lot of really talented brewers. Very, you know, very talented brewers. And I think that they thought working at Stone that they'd get a chance to do a lot more of the creative stuff. And then they did like the creative casks thing where they would like pull beer off into a cask, do cask conditioning and add different ingredients to the base of our core lineup of beers. And that was fun. But then they also wanted to make something that could potentially do well for the company in a national release. And that's where the Spotlight series kind of came in. 00:23:54.924 --> 00:24:06.055 Yeah. There's that tension between personal creativity, what's gonna be marketable, and how many people wanna participate, and how sustainable a program like that actually is. 00:24:06.055 --> 00:24:16.325 Right. And I think that, you know, I'm sure if they reflected on it, they would've gone with a much smaller batch, and-- 00:24:16.325 --> 00:24:17.884 Well, how big was the batch? 00:24:17.884 --> 00:24:41.590 Um, so, I think it was three fermenters for it, which is pretty good for nationwide release at the time, based on the distribution network. So that was, and each batch was about 350 barrels after filtration. So 350, so 700 and about just about a thousand. 00:24:41.590 --> 00:24:42.117 Yeah, Over thousand barrels or more. 00:24:42.117 --> 00:24:44.799 Yeah. And so, yeah, they, that's what they did. Of course-- 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.581 That's big. 00:24:45.581 --> 00:25:24.355 Next year was only two fermenters, and then the year after that was only one fermenter as far as from what I remember. But they wanted to, I think, to keep doing a little bit of that in case like something, you know, like a hit happened. Ballast Point, that was the reference of it 'cause Ballast Point had their Homebrew Mart. And they would brew, you know, a few beers and I mean, obviously that's where Sculpin came from. That's where some of their other hits, uh, Indra Kunindra. That weird curry beer that they made that actually did pretty well came from that system. So Stone wanted something similar, I think as like a sort of incubator for interesting, you know, a potential beer that could do well for them. 00:25:24.355 --> 00:25:50.674 Yeah. 'cause I'm thinking, I'm not clear on the date on this, but the American Homebrew Association competition, that Stone sponsored, and then they would take the winning beer and, you know, it's like Chris Banker Xocoveza. Um, Ken, now his name escapes me right this minute. I can see his face in my head! But, you know, uh, Ken did the, um, he always wears Hawaiian shirts, big guy with a beard. 00:25:50.674 --> 00:25:51.815 Oh! Um-- 00:25:51.815 --> 00:25:53.743 I'm just blanking on his name and-- 00:25:53.743 --> 00:25:56.375 Yeah. The coconut porter? 00:25:56.375 --> 00:25:58.265 Yeah. So he did that. And, uh-- 00:25:58.265 --> 00:25:59.835 Yeah, I know you exactly what you're talking about. 00:25:59.835 --> 00:26:06.334 Yeah. And so Mo-J's come out of that, you know, so there've been beers that have come out and like Xocoveza now is a staple. 00:26:06.334 --> 00:26:06.875 It is. Yeah. 00:26:06.875 --> 00:26:16.704 I mean, that really, that went over very well. But I'm not sure when those beers started as opposed to the Spotlight series. 00:26:16.704 --> 00:26:41.944 Yeah. So, the Homebrewer competition stuff was at the same time. I mean, I started in 2010 and we did the first, I think the first of the Homebrew was Ken's beer. And that was the year before, I think in 2009. And then we did all those collaboration series as well. with like Jolly Pumpkin and Firestone and all those other ones. So-- 00:26:41.944 --> 00:26:41.954 Yeah, Dogfish Head-- 00:26:41.954 --> 00:26:43.243 There was always these-- 00:26:43.243 --> 00:26:47.484 There was, I think, was it Dogfish Head, Stone and, you know-- 00:26:47.484 --> 00:26:48.412 Victory. 00:26:48.412 --> 00:26:51.000 They would do like a triangle--Victory. They would do triangle along the, along the bottle. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.145 That was the Saison du BUFF. 00:26:54.145 --> 00:27:06.724 Each year the position of the breweries would switch around. I mean, 'cause I've got a lot of those bottles from Greg and going, what's the difference between these two bottles? Oh, wait a minute. Stone's on the top now Dogfish Head's at the top now at the apex. 00:27:06.724 --> 00:27:11.164 Yeah. Saison du BUFF. That was kind of one of Greg's fun collaborations with-- 00:27:11.164 --> 00:27:13.365 Yeah. Then the wOOtstout. 00:27:13.365 --> 00:27:33.365 wOOtstout. That was fun. I got to meet Wil Wheaton because he was a homebrew nerd at the time. He's now sober. But, he came in in the lab and was like nerding out. And I told him, and he actually brought some of his homebrew. And then I ran it through our alkalizer, which measures alcohol content so I could tell him what his alcohol and everything was. 00:27:33.365 --> 00:27:33.993 Oh, very good! 00:27:33.993 --> 00:27:35.483 Yeah. It was a lot of fun. 00:27:35.483 --> 00:27:40.085 Yeah, I didn't understand how Wil Wheaton had gotten into that, but, you know, if he homebrewed, then yeah. That would-- 00:27:40.085 --> 00:27:46.285 Yeah. I think it was he homebrewed and kind of, you know, I think probably got approached by Greg or something like that to make-- 00:27:46.285 --> 00:27:47.000 Or he approached Greg at a festival who knows. 00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:21.325 Or something. I forgot what it was, but yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was a--that was a real fun part of the process. Like that was what kind of kept me going on, was meeting these really cool people, not only from like Wil Wheaton, all them, but from other breweries as well. On these collaborations, kind of like, just talking shop about how they did things differently, how we did things differently. You know, I was--I've always been kind of that person that wants to expand my horizons or best practices. I'm like, oh yeah, that makes total sense! Why aren't we doing that? You know? 00:28:21.325 --> 00:28:23.464 Yeah. Steal with pride! 00:28:23.464 --> 00:28:24.891 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. 00:28:24.891 --> 00:28:32.460 But yeah. Yeah. I mean, people should always be learning in my book, but, oh, yeah--Uh, so, Spröcketbier won first-- 00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.983 Yeah. It did, 00:28:34.983 --> 00:28:44.355 And then you brewed over a thousand barrels of it. And, you know, that's a lot of gallons of beer. So, you need to promote that! 00:28:44.355 --> 00:29:16.884 Well, yeah. And I, and that was, uh, there was--actually you can look on YouTube. We actually did some little videos. At least the marketing team did. Tyler Graham was the I think, head--no, I don't think he was head of marketing, but he was kind of the head videographer and creative presence there. He did a really good job with us. Actually, one of the fun things that we ended up doing was actually being very involved with the making of the label. 00:29:16.884 --> 00:29:19.365 I was gonna ask, how was the label designed? 00:29:19.365 --> 00:29:43.404 Yeah, actually, I'll show you. It was, um, for the--so the Monarose, who was actually a wife of one of the brewers came in and we wanted to do like, homages to the other brewers there. So we had this whole entire like, side of the label here. And all these have like little, I guess homages or-- 00:29:43.404 --> 00:29:44.454 References of some sort-- 00:29:44.454 --> 00:29:45.714 References to people who worked at Stone. 00:29:45.714 --> 00:29:49.484 Yeah 'cause there's a rooster. There's a couple of profiles. Well. 00:29:49.484 --> 00:29:50.994 Yeah. Well, that's us. Yeah. 00:29:50.994 --> 00:29:53.404 Okay. Because I was gonna, I'm not quite sure who that-- 00:29:53.404 --> 00:29:55.065 That's Robbie. That's, that's me. 00:29:55.065 --> 00:29:55.505 Okay. 00:29:55.505 --> 00:29:56.565 And then, so. 00:29:56.565 --> 00:29:59.845 Powell, and it looks like a little space--spaceman helmet or something? 00:29:59.845 --> 00:30:27.000 So one of the brewers we had, his name was, well, his nickname was Rooster and he's actually brewing down in Mexico right now. But he would just, like, we called him Rooster because he would just be like, "what's up Rooster?" And like, and he would just caw at us. So we wanted to have Rooster there. One of the other brewers, I don't know, we almost considered him kind of like our mascot 'cause he really--I love the guy. Robskie 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.404 That's the letter bit. 00:30:28.404 --> 00:30:28.785 Yeah. 00:30:28.785 --> 00:30:29.317 The "S." 00:30:29.317 --> 00:30:39.657 He'd always just like, like a finger up and be like, "Hey, money, how's it going money?" And he had like a higher-pitch voice. And so we would--so that's a reference to him. And then-- 00:30:39.657 --> 00:30:41.745 Pow is? 00:30:41.745 --> 00:31:17.164 Is for, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm, uh, it's Cecil. Cecil. He's still there. He just, he was just like, pow! Because he'd always like make it like he's gonna, you know, punch you in the dick. And so he, that's where we got that from. And then this is a reference to Steve Via, who was another brewer there. And we used to draw these, like, he used to draw these stupid little faces, 'cause that's what he kinda looked like. And he'd draw these stupid little faces called, we called 'em Steve Heads, on like the whiteboards everywhere. 00:31:17.164 --> 00:31:19.005 Steve was here. 00:31:19.005 --> 00:31:28.525 Yeah. And then, we had a little tribute to the brewer that, uh, Matt, who lost his life at Stone on the forklift accident. 00:31:28.525 --> 00:31:30.194 Oh yeah. That's the hand with the finger pointing up. 00:31:30.194 --> 00:32:05.285 Yeah. With that, with the same tattoo that we, a bunch of us ended up getting on the finger right there. Because he, it was kind of a jab at him too in a playful way, is that he recently got a--he was very religious and had some Bible quotes tattooed on his bicep. But he was like, he over-ellipseed. And we'd make him fun of him for that. It's like, that's permanent, you know, on there? So then, but that's what we all ended up getting. 'cause he, instead of just doing the dot, dot dot, he'd do dot space, dot dot and so that's what we ended up doing for that. 00:32:05.285 --> 00:32:08.515 Well that's really, really sweet that he's memorialized there. 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:50.525 Well, and then the burning roses was actually his submission. He actually ended up being able to, um, we, oh--so Chris Ketchum down at Liberty Station, he wasn't able to brew it 'cause he passed away before he was able to brew it on the system. But they made a bigger batch of this and like another couple, like three fermenters full to honor Matt Courtright for that. So that was actually his submission for the Spotlight series. And so he and I--I think it was Jason was his brewing partner on there, but yeah. So they brewed this and it was, it's super tasty. It's really good stuff. 00:32:50.525 --> 00:33:01.954 No, and that's very, very touching because I knew somebody had lost their life on the work floor, but hadn't really delved into who it was or what had happened or anything. 00:33:01.954 --> 00:34:20.525 Yeah, it was, you know, it was that--it was 2013 and it was that time at Stone where we were growing really rapidly and there was where the bottling line used to be, they moved that down to the new packaging hall that was just built. And then they set up a--it was just an empty area there. So it wasn't really, people didn't really forklift around that area very often. So they weren't really aware of where the pillars were. The support pillars. Because there was equipment in the way during that time, but it was a good, convenient storage area until we actually ended up filling it up more with fer--more fermenters. And he wasn't-- you know, looking back on it, at the time it felt like it was a result of Stone growing too fast, not caring about the employees, et cetera, et cetera. But really looking back on it, it was a lot of unfortunately bad decisions made by Matt. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt. There were some drug use implications. I'm not exactly sure if that was the case or not, but I mean, regardless of what he was doing, it was super tragic and he ended up, pop--you know, transporting a chemical drum, turned too fast with his forks up, which is still a bad idea. 00:34:20.525 --> 00:34:22.405 Oh, that's gonna throw your balance off. Yeah. 00:34:22.405 --> 00:35:33.764 He hit the pillar, tumbled over. He tried to jump out. That was also a no-no. So there, like, there was a series of mistakes that happened during that point that if he would've done one of those things, it would've, at least he might--he would've gotten hurt but he wouldn't have died. And, so it was really unfortunate, but we all were devastated. There was so much good talent there that ended up leaving over the next year and a half pretty quickly. I mean, that was other reason why the Spotlight series was kind of, you know, I think it was gonna dwindle down pretty quick because there was just a lack of involvement there. But I mean, we, the brewers that were involved in the Spotlight series, one was Hollie (Stephenson), she ended up being the brewmaster at the new Guinness facility in Maryland. Left to do that. Chris Baker, he ended up being the brewmaster at Mother Earth. Casey (Harris), he's now the co-founder and brewmaster at Topa Topa up in Ventura area. I mean, there was so many really awesome brewers that went on to do better at the brewing industry and just great things. Yeah. And it was just hard to lose all those folks. But losing somebody like that at work, I mean, that's-- 00:35:33.764 --> 00:35:34.795 That's very hard. 00:35:34.795 --> 00:36:02.164 Yeah. It's it at like Modern Times and, uh, Belching Beaver, after I left to work for those places, I always harped on safety as a huge thing because I saw what it did. When you, you know, someone gets seriously hurt or loses their life at the place, it just destroys morale. And I mean, really from some of the people that I still talk to at Stone, it really didn't recover until very recently. And that was only because I think Sapporo bought them and kind of changed-- 00:36:02.164 --> 00:36:06.204 There was much going on. It's kind of like, you know, you--you're looking forward. 00:36:06.204 --> 00:36:07.364 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00:36:07.364 --> 00:36:13.222 Yeah. But you still wanna remember Matt. That's, that's just very, very important. But yeah. 00:36:13.222 --> 00:36:14.110 Yeah! 00:36:14.110 --> 00:36:25.025 That's Wow. That, yeah, people don't think about what goes on behind the taps. You know, that back of house stuff, the brewery operations are--things can happen. 00:36:25.025 --> 00:36:40.275 Oh yeah. No, it's dangerous back there, especially in big operations. That's why it costs so much to run a big brewery, is the automation that needs to get involved with that. Because you can't do all this just with the, your, you know, strength of your back in terms of labor. You gotta, you know-- 00:36:40.275 --> 00:37:23.715 Well, I have said, because I helped brew the last batch at Chuckalek with Sam (Samantha) Olson. It was a Pink Boots blend, and I'm a "pink booter," so I went out to help Sam and of course it was horribly hot that day and their little tiny operation. And I was going, it's hot, it's heavy, it's sticky, it's awful. I--this is a young person's job. My toes are near flame, I don't like this. But at least you know it, again, it gave me that view into the brewing process. So I had more appreciation for what brewers actually do. But I went, this is definitely a young person's occupation. And not forever because boy, your back is gonna give out eventually. I don't care how much automation you have to help you, there's still a lot that is just simply manual labor. 00:37:23.715 --> 00:38:20.704 Yeah. I mean, I--actually it was interesting. My wife is now working in the medical device industry. But one of the--she actually got to observe a surgery because her company does back surgery equipment and like procedural stuff and everything. And one of the people that was there was someone who worked in the warehouse most of their life at Wyeast who you know, they make the yeast that a whole bunch of breweries use and everything. And yeah it's just his spine was messed up from all the work that he was doing, from that. And I've just seen, so like the--how this amount of manual labor really does wear someone down. You can see somebody, or like, wow, that person has to be like 50 years-old and ends up they're like just coming out of their thirties. You're just like, ooh. That's a lot. That's why I was glad to where I was kind of doing stuff in the lab most of the time. If I wasn't jockeying a desk. So, yeah. 00:38:20.704 --> 00:38:39.105 Now, before I asked you a qu--I need to make a note to myself here about, uh, hopefully that word will remind me what I want to ask you, but I still wanna ask, because you said that after the beer was bottled, you've explained the labeling. You went on a promotional tour. 00:38:39.105 --> 00:39:53.344 Yes. Yeah. That was the real fun part was like over the course of about two months, like we'd go to a location for like a weekend or whatever and then fly back and then do that about three or four times. And, yeah, we went to try to hit all the major hubs. So we did like obviously a promotional thing here. Or at Liberty Station and also at Escondido. Went to Seattle, Atlanta, Cleveland and Philadelphia. From all these places. And so we'd made up with the Air District Sales Manager there, and they would take us where they would want us to, you know, sometimes it was a bottle shop, sometimes there was like a, you know, event happening or whatnot. And that was really super fun. Especially at that time. Because you know, Stone paid for everything, so it was like, okay, it was, you know, making as little as we did at the time, it was nice to go on kind of an all expense, essentially paid tour of these like, you know, places and either have the sales reps or Mitch's credit card kind of pay for everything. So it was--it was a lot of fun. Like Robbie and I got into some really good places, met some really good people and-- 00:39:53.344 --> 00:39:56.525 Did you have to spend a lot of time explaining the beer? 00:39:56.525 --> 00:40:55.954 A little bit. I mean, like, between you and me and the recording, if you tasted a black rye kölsch, and you're familiar with beer styles, you're like, wow, that tastes exactly like a Schwarzbier. It is a Schwarzbier, basically. It's, uh, we wanna make something that's low alcohol, or lower alcohol. I think it was like five point a half percent. Yeah. 5.4%. And so it was something that we could probably drink a lot of during the sales tour and not get too schnockered during that time, and, but yeah, no, we--we did a lot of explaining of the beer. We did, you know, to--we wanted to make it a little bit more unique with using kölsch yeast instead of like a lager yeast. Because I don't thi--at that time, they would've, uh, I think Mitch would've been like, we're using ale yeast for this because it's gonna, we don't want it to sit in a month in, you know, in these tanks. So using the kölsch yeast, that's why I picked kölsch because it turned around much quicker. 00:40:55.954 --> 00:40:57.905 Yeah. Yeah. 00:40:57.905 --> 00:41:13.000 And I like rye. Rye is like one of my favorite grains, so. And I like, kind of like the idea of like using Carafa malt, which was originally designed to use in Schwarzbiers in Germany as a de-bittered black malt so you don't get a lot of the flavor of the malt, of the black malt, but you get the color. 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.945 Right. Okay. 00:41:15.945 --> 00:41:16.644 So, yeah. 00:41:16.644 --> 00:41:18.585 Very interesting. 00:41:18.585 --> 00:41:33.275 Yeah. So we did all that and journeyed around the place and did--we had a, it was a place in Seattle where we did--we chugged boots of this beer. It was like a race and so-- 00:41:33.275 --> 00:41:34.684 Good it was 5.4%! 00:41:34.684 --> 00:42:08.885 Yeah, I know. I was getting kind of, I was definitely getting a little tired of all that after, at the time. But I mean, I wasn't. The traveling part was a lot of fun, especially since they always took the--to their best accounts and their--they were just geeking out that they had brewers there to kind of help like promote it. And people came up and asked us a bunch of really good questions about the process and you know, what--how everything is, how we're doing, you know? And what do you do for all this? How, how does this work on a scaled up process, all the geeky homebrewer questions that come our way. 00:42:08.885 --> 00:42:12.992 Yeah. Well, and it also, you know, it humanizes Stone. I mean-- 00:42:12.992 --> 00:42:13.335 Oh yeah. 00:42:13.335 --> 00:42:35.795 Stone has become such so mythic, you know, with the gargoyle and everything else. That to actually have brewers there and real people there from Stone representing Stone. It's not that big mega monolith that the bigger beer brands are, that you don't know who those people are, and they--they're so distanced from the brewing itself that you don't feel the connection. 00:42:35.795 --> 00:43:00.281 Well, and to kind of expand on that, at the time, Greg was very much the face of Stone. And people--and Greg had a kind of polarizing personality, still does, I think. But when you get to talk to with him one-on-one, he is like a super nice guy. Little bit awkward, you know, on that interpersonal basis, but when you get him in front of a camera or in front of a crowd, he turns into the "arrogant bastard" essentially the, you know--we joked around that it was like the Greg-face effect, back in the early days. 00:43:00.281 --> 00:43:16.125 I've seen a reference somewhere to Greg-face. I don't remember where it was-- 00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:54.195 He just had like a open mouth, like ahhhhhhhhh, and that was like his, you know, he's angry about, you know--was it, he's angry about making sure people have good beer or something like that. I don't know. It was marketing around him and I don't think it really landed as much as he was hoping it would land. But, I think part of the pro--but I think that was part of it was when you got the brewers out there, we're just, you know, normal people making beer and really enjoying it. And I think the crowd and people really enjoyed, like actually seeing that there was actually normal people working there. We're not all just like raging maniacs. 00:43:54.195 --> 00:44:10.605 Well, and that's the whole thing about craft beer is it's, you know, there are people and personalities behind it as opposed to anonymous, everything's automated production, so people who want that human interaction, that human touch or, you know, craft beer is really-- 00:44:10.605 --> 00:45:34.394 Literal blood, sweat, and tears going into this beer. I've seen it. It grossed me out, but I've seen it. No, it's, um--but yeah, no, it was--I think that was a big part and I think that's why like the cask events we did at the Escondido restaurant location and also at Liberty Station, the wOOt Fest. And when we released it during Comic-Con and we would make different casks and different beers with like, celebrities or like the minor ce--like kind of like geeky celebrities. That was fun and people I think really enjoyed seeing the brewers kind of working together with that instead of just being like you're saying against like a faceless monolith of a company, there was actually real people that work in this. You know, the ones working actually, like destroying our bodies to get beer to you. You know, and it's--that's a big part of it. I mean, that's why we were really focused on safety pretty hardcore, obviously after Matt's passing because of everything. And it was, uh, it was a big, you know, it was a big wake-up call for I think craft beer in San Diego in general because there was so many people that either knew Matt or knew about him. And then there was obviously like kind of self-reflecting of like, whoa, what if somebody died at our brewery? I mean, that was--that'd be devastating. And they saw that, so. 00:45:34.394 --> 00:45:41.580 Yeah. And that's part of the maturing of the industry is accepting that things aren't always going to stay the same and bad things can happen. 00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:42.686 A hundred percent. 00:45:42.686 --> 00:45:45.684 And it could happen to you just as easily as anybody else. 00:45:45.684 --> 00:46:22.045 Yeah. And like COVID was a big, you know, that was a huge, uh--I think the way I like to, at least I've thought about it and the way that it kind of looked to me was an accelerating event, meaning that it kind of accelerated the, you know, whether a brewery was gonna do well or--Like, you know, I think unfortunately a bad example, or a good, bad example would be Iron Fist. Iron Fist was kind of trailing off there for a bit, but after COVID it was just pretty much done. You know, it kind of accelerated that. I think if COVID didn't happen, they would've limped along for a couple more years, maybe. But I feel like-- 00:46:22.045 --> 00:46:22.605 Hard to say. 00:46:22.605 --> 00:46:25.804 Yeah. I feel like COVID kind of accelerated that. 00:46:25.804 --> 00:47:08.434 I--well, I think it did for a number of breweries, but then we also had a whole bunch of breweries that were in process. They would already, you know, bought--things were already ordered and stuff like that. So it was, well, either we dump everything we've done so far and just take this massive loss--or hope, because who knew how long COVID was going to last, you know, people took the gamble and unfortunately now those gambles and the loans and everything else, they're starting to catch up with everybody. So we're seeing this horrible downturn right now, which just breaks my heart. Every day it seems like there's somebody else. I'm just like, no, not another one! But, you know, if you prepared properly or through the luck of the draw, whatever, some are gonna make it and some aren't, unfortunately. 00:47:08.434 --> 00:47:08.445 Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:08.445 --> 00:47:30.804 So again, the maturing of our industry locally. And I think that if we looked at other regions, we'd probably see a lot of the same thing. Areas that became hotbeds of brewing before we did in California or whatever, we'd see that they've gone through the same sort of cycle, so it's not just us, so that it just, we're here. So it really hits us hard. 00:47:30.804 --> 00:47:42.445 Well, yeah. And, San Diego is such a tight-knit brewing community too. It's like, you know, you hear about, it's like, oh, did you hear that? Rouleur closed. Did you hear about this? And you're like, oh, yeah, I met all those guys. I know them. 00:47:42.445 --> 00:47:57.635 Yeah. I went to Rouleur's last day and, you know, Tomme Arthur was there, Paul Sangster was there, Chris Banker was there. I was seeing all these people that, you know, haven't seen 'em recently, for whatever reason. And it was kind of like, well, it's great to have an old home week, but it's a terrible reason to have an old home week. 00:47:57.635 --> 00:47:59.804 Right. I know. 00:47:59.804 --> 00:48:22.034 So, yeah. But we--we'll pick up and move on, I guess. So speaking of moving on, the little note I made to myself was, when I've been over at Stone, I have been stunned by the speed at which everything's bottled. And I understand that stuff is pulled off the line like every five minutes and checked for quality control? 00:48:22.034 --> 00:48:23.744 Mm-hmm. 00:48:23.744 --> 00:48:29.125 How do you manage it at that speed? I mean, that was just stunning to me. 00:48:29.125 --> 00:48:54.885 Um, I mean, I've seen it happen where there's like times where I went to like, on a tour of the Budweiser facility up in Van Nuys. And they run about twice as fast, if not three times as fast as what Stone does. It--there was a guy on the line, just like looking around, like, oh, looks at the time, says it's about time for collecting a sample. And you just (makes a "tchew" sound) and it just, it's like just second nature to them. He doesn't even do that. 00:48:54.885 --> 00:49:06.844 But then you've still gotta run it through the process. And what if it's bad? What if you do have to pull it? How do you find it? In all that stuff that's already, you know, all this other stuff's gone through in the time it took you to do the quality check. 00:49:06.844 --> 00:51:35.465 Well, I think that's the thing about most beer issues, at least from, like non-sour beers. Like non-barrel-aged sour beers is that if there is an issue, then that's why you drew a lot of--you try to find the quality issue earlier on when it's less expensive to do something about it. So, like with the ingredients, try to do as best as you can as a brewery, depending on, as like how big you are. You know, like friability of malt, you're looking at the quality of the water, making sure there's no chlorine in there. You know, hops themselves, you do sniff tests, and you make sure that's stored well. So once it goes through the process, then at certain points it'd be like, well, if the ingredient's bad, we're just not gonna brew it. Which is, you know, it sucks, but at least we're not gonna like, spend that much money. If we already bought the ingredients, that's one thing. But as soon as you start investing time and labor into it, then it gets more and more expensive. So hopefully by the time you actually put it into a bottle, you know exactly what the quality is gonna be on there. But you still gotta do those checks as due diligence. So the thing about most beer is that if there is an issue with the beer itself, it's as a result--it's like, it's gonna be a systemic issue. Like, with that batch, and not necessarily with like these, like three boxes over here. That you have to, it's like a needle in a haystack, what to call it. And so that's why you try to take samples during fermentation, do taste tests before you send it to the filtration or what, centrifuge, whatever you end up doing with the finishing process of the beer. And then once it's in the bright tank, you also take samples before it's packaged. Uh, for taste testing and approval. And that's kind of the final go/no go. And then you taste it after it gets bottled or canned as well, too, but at that point it's pretty much on a truck that's heading to distribution. So it's a lot more involvement in terms of like doing a recall. If there's an issue with that. So typically if it's a off flavor issue you catch it early enough. Usually it's right after fermentation because that's where most of the off flavor issues may occur. If it's during the pr--and then you take samples, at least on our size, we took microbiological samples, like samples of it, plated it, see what grew. Made sure it wasn't a beer-spoiling organism or anything there. 00:51:35.465 --> 00:51:38.835 How long does it generally take for something like that to develop? 00:51:38.835 --> 00:51:40.324 Well, so that's, that's a-- 00:51:40.324 --> 00:51:43.034 Coming from a non-scientist person, I have no idea. 00:51:43.034 --> 00:53:59.635 Well, no, it is actually kind of complicated because when you take--so I take a sample from, you know, let's say a bright tank. It's about ready to be packaged. I grow it, and look at it and there's some concerning cells that grow up there. It looks like there might be lactic acid producing bacteria on there like lactobacillus or pediococcus. That's immediately sends things, red flags up in my head. So then I inform, you know, my bosses to say like, Hey, I'd like to put a hold on this and do maybe some forced aging to see if it'll actually express itself. Sometimes you see these organisms and they grow on the plate, but they might not necessarily grow in the beer. Um, and with like a lot of--and that's where like a, I think a lot of breweries went hard on IPAs is that IPAs have a lot of hops in them, they're usually a little bit higher in alcohol, which would inhibit growth of bacteria like that if their process wasn't as clean. If you're making lagers, that's a lot harder because it's lower alcohol, it's lower bitterness, IBUs, which it also inhibits growth and bacterial growth. And so if it was like a lager that I found this in, I'd be like, yeah, we're not selling this. But if it was an IPA, I'd probably put a couple, like, you know, I get like--package a few of them put into our incubator for like a day or two and see if anything produces. And, it depends on the beer, but if it, usually, if you don't see anything growing more, or if after you plate it, you don't see any more colony forming units in there, you could pretty much say that it's not gonna grow in it. But that's typically like the bigger issue. And especially we didn't do any sort of, uh, what's it called? Uh, pasteurization at the time, too. That's actually a bigger issue for all the non-alcoholic beers we're making up now, is the pasteurization part of the process. That's the kind of the expense limiting step for it at this point. But, um, but yeah, so that--it might take a day or two, it might take a couple weeks. There's some times where it kind of like caught me sitting up at the time where I released a beer knowing that this isn't--feeling pretty confident it's not gonna grow in it. But then I'm like, well, what happens like six months from now or whatever? 00:53:59.635 --> 00:54:05.744 Yeah. When its sitting on a shelf in a store, especially if they, they're not rotating their stock properly. 00:54:05.744 --> 00:54:08.914 Or keeping at room temperature. Exactly. Exactly. 00:54:08.914 --> 00:54:12.925 Yeah. No, that sort of thing always alarms me. 00:54:12.925 --> 00:54:31.875 Oh yeah. No, it's--that's what keeps you up at night is being a quality manager, is that like, you know, there's that give and take. Like the job of the quality manager is to assess and inform your management about the risk. So, and then see how we can mitigate that risk. And so for-- 00:54:31.875 --> 00:54:36.925 But it's not really your final call. It's gonna be higher ups that are gonna say, we're gonna pull this. 00:54:36.925 --> 00:55:07.565 And it should be. because I'm the one informing them of what the risks are. It's like--and if there's something that's like super high risk, like in terms of like something they want to do, I'd be like, no. Absolutely not. Like I, when I was at Belching Beaver, they kept wanting to do a Radler and without pasteurization and I'm like, absolutely not. Because you are adding sugar to it. Because like sugar and grapefruit juice or sugar and lemon juice. Whatever, which way you go. And if there's anything growing in there, it's going to grow a lot more you know? 00:55:07.565 --> 00:55:09.045 Right. Something's gonna explode. 00:55:09.045 --> 00:55:12.025 And I don't want that. I do not want that. 00:55:12.025 --> 00:55:17.275 No, that's your name on the line plus the company and everything else. 00:55:17.275 --> 00:55:21.224 They called me a spoil sport and I'm like, good! I am. That's my job. 00:55:21.224 --> 00:55:22.724 That's exactly right. 00:55:22.724 --> 00:55:37.385 Like, there's times where I'm like, well, this plate might not grow or might not, but I'm informing you about the risk. I'm, you know, whatever direction you want to go. I'll be happy with. But then there's other ones where I'm like, absolutely not. No, I'm not gonna have my name attached to this. 00:55:37.385 --> 00:55:55.045 Yeah. No, good for you. Stand up for it. So, um, when you went to Modern Times then, in 2017 as Director of Brewing Operations, this meant you were not doing quality control anymore? Or how much interaction did you have with the QC people there? 00:55:55.045 --> 00:56:45.965 I had a lot of interaction. I mean, that was my background. So, you know, I really wanted to make sure that we focused on the QC aspect of it and any sort of money we could invest to help out with that. Modern Times did a lot of barrel-aged beers. And so Morgan Tenwick, who was the QC manager at the time, she was kind of struggling pretty hard with that. So I ended up purchasing more kits and we kind of worked with her on how to do better barrel testing. So when I was discussing before about how, like usually if it's a tank of beers, it's gonna be bad, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna be bad. But with like barrel-aged beers and sour beers, anything you put into a barrel, you have these discreet, like mini vessels, right? And you have to test pretty much all of them. 00:56:45.965 --> 00:56:50.844 Yeah. It's a much more uncontrolled environment because a barrel is wood. It's not-- 00:56:50.844 --> 00:57:17.885 It breathes. It has stuff in it. Yeah. So then that's why you have to pretty much do micro-testing on every single barrel that's going into a batch. That way if you find something in one barrel, you can leave that out of the blend. And so that's what we ended up doing for the barrel-aging program at Stone, after we kind of got hit on a few of the like big infections that came out of it. You know, we--because if as soon as you dump that infected barrel into the blend its-- 00:57:17.885 --> 00:57:18.405 Oh yeah. The whole thing's gone. 00:57:18.405 --> 00:57:31.000 Exactly. So that's what we ended up doing there. So I helped out with that a lot. Because that was like low volume, but high margin stuff for us. So we wanted to do that. And then-- 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.596 And, Modern Times's reputation was really, is really reliant on a lot of that barrel-aged stuff. 00:57:35.596 --> 00:57:35.606 It's huge. 00:57:35.606 --> 00:57:45.105 I have several friends that are members and they just, you know, when the barrel-aged, you know, some of 'em have got massive cellars of the Modern Times barrel-aged. 00:57:45.105 --> 00:58:55.525 Oh, it's huge. Yeah. And it was really good too. And so that was one of our big priorities. The other beers, like, I mean, that was pretty much we could handle like the normal production stuff with our IPAs and whatnot. Um, the, yeah. My biggest adjustment was like actually caring about the budget. I mean, I always cared about the budget when I was on the quality side. But it was like, how do I, you know, they gave me this money. How do I spend that? What new equipment do I need? What--do I need to hire somebody else? Stuff like that. Instead of being like, okay, here's the budget. How do I deal it out to like, quality? How do I deal it to brewing and packaging? And so that was a big adjustment for me. And then of course, all the other things that happened during that time, that's when Modern Times is blowing up. They bought the Commons Brewery up in Portland. And so I had to go up there to help set them up. And you know, I think, Tim (Kamolz) and Andrew (Schwartz) did a lot of that work, and Matt (Walsh), who moved up there to take over that position as a brewer up there. And so I do a lot of that. And then we opened up downtown LA location, and then we-- 00:58:55.525 --> 00:58:56.844 There was a lot of expansion. 00:58:56.844 --> 00:59:22.804 Oh. So much expansion. And, you know, that's--it kind of got to me. Plus I was still living up in Vista, so I had to go all the way down to Point Loma all the time on that. So, and then they kind of did like a whole kind of reorg. And so I got, you know, thrust out of my position there. And then I, but I already was kind of looking at leaving too. So it was, it was good timing. And then that's where I went to Belching Beaver after that. But. 00:59:22.804 --> 00:59:29.000 Okay. So now Belching Beaver, again, you're going back to more quality management. 00:59:29.000 --> 01:00:54.074 I learned my lesson that I think, well, I could have done I think a good job at that position as a, well, DOBO, Director of Brewing Operation. But it was just getting to be a lot for me. Plus I wasn't really, you know, I think Modern Times was hurting by that time with all the expansion and it really just came to a forefront. I think after like, not only COVID, but the rat magnet thing that happened too after that. So, but the, uh, but yeah, going to Belching Beaver was, you know--it was like going like, kind of going back down again in scale. And it was very much like a family run, you know? It is, it was still a family run place and all that. But yeah, just a, they were having a lot of quality issues and they needed somebody to kind of with an experienced hand to help set things up in terms of their quality systems and do the micro testing. And, because they were selling a lot of beer to China, especially the peanut butter milk stout. And that was really super popular in China. So they wanted to make sure that, you know, and Chinese are very--they will try to get as much out of you as possible for as little money. It's kind of their business, way of doing business. And so when they were having a lot of quality issues going there, I found a lot of where the issues were coming from on the bottling line, because they only wanted bottles. They didn't want cans over in China. 01:00:54.074 --> 01:00:58.355 Well, when I think of Chinese beer, everything I can think of is in a bottle. 01:00:58.355 --> 01:01:48.005 Yeah. Mm-hmm. They like it. And you know, I think they have a big recycling program for glass bottles there. So like, we send those over and it was fine, but it was just, it was, you know, they--I had to be the kind of interface on the quality side. They take it very seriously there. And so I was like showing them what we were doing, where the issue came from, how we're resolving it, being very transparent with them kind of as a, you know, since we're the supplier, they're the customer, we wanna make sure that they basically saddled us as I'm using in my new industry, a supplier corrective action where I could actually like, basically tell them exactly what we were doing to resolve some of these quality issues and being very forefront with them, upfront with them, but also holding them accountable for how they store our beer. Because-- 01:01:48.005 --> 01:01:56.125 That seems to be a big problem with the imports. Or exports that we're putting out to other countries is how it's being handled on the other end. 01:01:56.125 --> 01:02:27.164 Well, because they, because, and they were--they didn't know much about the beer and how it should be stored. So I kind of educated them on that. So then they can, because the distributor, that distributor of beer, so then they can tell their customers when they come back for a, you know, as a complaint, the distributor can come back and be like, how did you store it? And it was like, did you transport this case of beer on the back of a scooter up this mountain after sitting out for like three days in like the sun? You know, it's not gonna taste the same as they remember it. 01:02:27.164 --> 01:02:29.324 How true. 01:02:29.324 --> 01:02:33.565 Yeah. And that's what we had to like, really deal with, was like-- 01:02:33.565 --> 01:02:40.034 Well, I mean, I'm sure people don't think how their actions can affect a product. 01:02:40.034 --> 01:03:13.244 Yeah. Well, and craft beer over there is very new. And or, and the beer that they were used to is the mass produced stuff from like, Snow and some of the other imports in the area. You know, coming in, but not American craft beer which is a lot more sensitive. We don't at least at that point, pasteurize our beer, which helped, you know, stabilize it, but also affected the flavor. Like the non-pasteurized stuff I think tastes better because it doesn't get cooked a little bit. You know, it's not designed for that. And so. 01:03:13.244 --> 01:03:19.525 Well, and that's the argument Coors has made for all those years, is we don't pasteurize so you get a better tasting beer. So, you know. 01:03:19.525 --> 01:03:21.474 Yeah. I think they still pasteurize a little bit. 01:03:21.474 --> 01:03:22.085 Yeah. It's-- 01:03:22.085 --> 01:03:24.474 But not the--that brand. 01:03:24.474 --> 01:03:32.454 Yeah. No, I remember their ads from when I was little. But anyway, so Belching Beaver, you were there during COVID? 01:03:32.454 --> 01:03:33.784 I was, yes. 01:03:33.784 --> 01:03:35.045 How did that work out? 01:03:35.045 --> 01:04:06.525 Um, you know what it was--I mean, we were all, it was a very confusing time whether I would get like furloughed during that or whatnot. But, with--at least we were considered an essential business, so we ended up doing a lot of production during that time. And actually our production increased significantly because like a lot of other breweries that were more reliant on taproom sales, we weren't as much. 01:04:06.525 --> 01:04:08.614 Right. You were already canning and-- 01:04:08.614 --> 01:04:09.490 And distributing. 01:04:09.490 --> 01:04:22.045 --distributing a lot of your stuff, which was very different because a lot of the smaller guys had only been tap rooms and they had to suddenly turn around and get canning equipment or a mobile canner or something to keep them in business. 01:04:22.045 --> 01:06:38.474 Absolutely. Yeah. So that was kind of the big turnaround there was that we were able to distribute to, you know, we used the Reyes Brothers (Reyes Beverage Group) distribution, and they got us into grocery stores a lot and our beer sold really well in the grocery stores. So actually, COVID was pretty decent to us, actually pretty good. I think the, obviously the restaurants that we had, the one, the pub in Vista and then the downtown one in downtown Vista suffered a little bit because of that. But after all, kind of like more restrictions were lifted and you can do outside seating and all that it was, you know, it turned out okay. But the beer definitely was helping us survive that and we actually did really well. That was like our biggest selling as far when I was there, it was actually during COVID in terms of like distributed sales. Which was actually pretty cool. So, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was weird, like wearing masks around the place. Really not knowing what sort of, I don't know, like what, like early on what actually was like the vector of contaminant--you know, of an infection was until it was like a, it was a, you know, respiratory infection. But what the interesting thing was, is like everything else that we did to try to like, reduce the amount of people working there, we furloughed a few of the brewers, so it was kind of a skeleton crew, but then we eventually had to bring them back on because we were making so much. The, the funny thing was, is just everything we were doing, like trying to help out with some of the other friends and family of the business. We actually had, one of Troy or one of our director of sales's friends is a barber and he came in and took over our bathroom and gave people haircuts in like our single stall bathroom, because they were all, like all the salons and haircut places were closed because they weren't considered an essential business. So that's how he made money, was like every week he'd come by and be like, who needs a haircut? And then we'd just go into the single serve bathroom across the way from my office. And give us haircuts. I got, it was a really nice haircut from him. 01:06:38.474 --> 01:06:42.965 Well, and that's also a bit of a morale boost that you can get yourself tidied up a little bit. 01:06:42.965 --> 01:06:45.965 Yeah! No, we were all looking a little rough there. Around the, the hair so it was-- 01:06:45.965 --> 01:06:52.525 Between all the emotional upheavals and the ups and downs everybody went through, just being able to get your hair cut was a big thing. 01:06:52.525 --> 01:08:36.000 Oh, yeah. No, and that, and that was, yeah. Like, so my wife, that was kind of the impetus of kind of both me and my wife to kind of consider where we'd want to go, you know? And beer kind of wasn't looking to be that direction. She was working at The Confessional at the time and in Cardiff. And of course they shut everything down was like supposed to be to go only, although she made exceptions for really good customers that come in and hang out, like socially distanced inside, but still just hang out and drink their beer at the bar, like a normal person instead of like having to go beers go out the front door. But, yeah, she--they had to set up the out--and then once they were allowed to do outside service, they had to set up these tables and then break 'em down again. So they wouldn't get stolen. And it was really like taking a toll on her. And we were watching a lot of Star Trek during that time. And she was like, man, I wanna be a programmer! And I was like, oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't really expect this, because she loved, I mean, she loved the customer service aspect. Like, we got to be decent friends with a lot of her regulars that were really good and, you know, met the celebrities of the Cardiff area that like to come in. Like Haro, Bob Haro of Haro Bikes. He was a regular out there and we met a lot of, you know, a lot of really cool people, including our realtor that bought our house, we met from there. So like, her wanting to move on, like she was getting really tired of moving all these tables and dealing with the customers that were upset about the whole, like, wearing your mask and-- 01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.835 The service staff got so dumped on. There was so many people. 01:08:38.835 --> 01:08:46.614 Yeah. Just because people were frustrated, the COVID thing, and they took it out on the service staff and they're just like, Hey man, we're just here trying to make some money. You know? Because-- 01:08:46.614 --> 01:08:48.925 We're not any happier about it than you are, but-- 01:08:48.925 --> 01:09:28.604 Yeah, but we're the ones that deal with it. But, and I mean, luckily enough of the regulars were, you know, kind of helped settle anyone that's like, Hey, you need to, you need to be quiet because she's doing the best she can. And she is an angel. But yeah. So, but she went to a coding bootcamp and got her certificate and then got a job at Tandem Diabetes. They make the insulin pumps for type 1 diabetes. And she was a tester for the software for the website that, you know, you order your refill kits and everything from. Um, yeah. And she misses customer service. But she doesn't miss the-- 01:09:28.604 --> 01:09:35.645 Day to day-to-day grinding part. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Watching people have to set up and break down tables and then all the cleaning you've gotta do, it's like-- 01:09:35.645 --> 01:09:37.034 Disinfecting and everything. 01:09:37.034 --> 01:09:38.925 Yeah. I got my own house to clean. Thank you. 01:09:38.925 --> 01:09:41.305 Right. I know. And that's, yeah. So I-- 01:09:41.305 --> 01:09:44.234 So yeah. That would get old again, you know, just-- 01:09:44.234 --> 01:10:23.864 Yeah, exactly. So that's what she--so that's kind of like where we were at at that point. And then, about just a little over two years ago was when, yeah, like there was kind of a, the big peak at Belching Beaver in terms of distribution during COVID. And then once everything started opening up again, I think people really wanted to go out. They didn't want to just buy beer from the grocery store anymore. So then our distribution sales fell off, but our restaurant sales went up. But the--I was probably the most expensive employee they had so they had to lay me off at that point, so. Which was good because I was actually kind of getting, I don't know, I like being in places where I learn new things and-- 01:10:23.864 --> 01:10:30.145 It sounded like you were already questioning, you know, you and your wife both. She had made a decision to make a change and, you know. 01:10:30.145 --> 01:10:44.725 Yeah. And I kind of wanted to follow that. So, yeah. And then I went--yeah, I got a job at Hydranautics and that was a little bit too--yeah. I started on Halloween of 2022. Or that was my first day. It was a Monday. 01:10:44.725 --> 01:10:47.000 A a memorable day. To say the least. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:53.324 Exactly. No. So, yeah. So that's why I kind of, that's how I got ended up out of beer at this point. 01:10:53.324 --> 01:10:58.604 But while you were in beer, you were teaching at UCSD in the Brewing Extension program? 01:10:58.604 --> 01:10:59.045 I was, yeah. I was teaching-- 01:10:59.045 --> 01:11:01.555 What classes and how, when did you teach? 01:11:01.555 --> 01:12:43.000 Yeah, so I remember like really--so it was when Yusuf first started, Yusuf Cherney first started up that--at least helped start up that program, I wasn't involved at the very beginning of it. Gwen Conley, she and I, she was kinda like my mentor--still is to a certain extent--in the business when she was at Lost Abbey. And so she was teaching the sensory classes at the time. So she actually ended up, when she wouldn't be able to make a class or whatever, she would ask me to be involved and then she would give me a portion of her money for that, which was really nice of her to do that. But I taught a little bit of that. But then, so that introduced me to them. Mitch left and stopped teaching after he left to go open his New Realm place in Atlanta. So then, Justinian took over, Justinian Caire, took over the work production class for about a year or so, but then he quit that. But then, so then they came to talk to me because Gwen recommended me. And so then I started teaching, uh, work production in 2017 -- 2018. And, I did that. At first it was pretty popular, so I did it like twice a year. I think usually like a spring and fall quarter because they did quarters there. And, but then it kind of started trailing off where I do once a year. And then last few years, it was like once every--and I taught during COVID. They wanted to have a class during COVID. So I did a whole entire remote session on Zoom and everything. The Zoom teaching, I'm sure you're all familiar with that process. 01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:44.326 Oh yeah. 01:12:44.326 --> 01:13:34.045 Yeah. It was, you know, I didn't like it just because, you know, people had their cameras off. I wasn't--I usually thrive on the back and forth, and I usually told my war stories about like, oh yeah, you should do this and let me tell you why about this. You know, like, and usually people, especially that want to go start their own breweries are kind of interested moreso in like my war stories than the actual like content of the--at least I think so otherwise they're humoring me. I'm not sure. But I know I got pretty good evaluations for on there. So, but yeah, I taught work production, recipe development for yeah--and my last class was actually, because they wound down that program. They only did the last class to help clean up anyone who still wanted to get their certificate. And that was of July of last year. Now 2024. 01:13:34.045 --> 01:13:34.645 Yeah. 01:13:34.645 --> 01:13:35.125 That was the last one. 01:13:35.125 --> 01:13:38.664 Still not used to last year being 2024. 01:13:38.664 --> 01:13:39.845 Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's-- 01:13:39.845 --> 01:13:49.805 But yeah, I mean, it was nice that they did actually get people through the program rather than just saying, okay, that's it. We're done. You know, we don't care where you are in the program. Ta-ta. 01:13:49.805 --> 01:14:11.664 Yeah. They just wanted to, yeah. There was a lot of gauging interest in who wanted to complete it because I mean, it was a lot of money people spent at that time and they just wanted very much try to get all that back. And it was a nice little supplement for my--like by the time it got around here, I was like, I was okay with letting this go. I mean, I still enjoyed it to a certain extent, but-- 01:14:11.664 --> 01:14:15.925 But you've already got a full-time job. This is on top of that. And yeah. 01:14:15.925 --> 01:14:28.000 I'm not even really in beer anymore. You know, like I have a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge about it and everything, and joy sharing that with people who were interested. But, you know, my last class, I only had three people in there. 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:28.265 Oh gosh. 01:14:28.265 --> 01:14:34.675 Yeah. And one of 'em wasn't even signed up for the class, so, but they wanted to take it. That's fine! I'm okay with it. 01:14:34.675 --> 01:14:39.295 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, get your knowledge where you can. 01:14:39.295 --> 01:14:39.305 Exactly. 01:14:39.305 --> 01:14:43.784 So at one point you were also on the Brewer's Association Quality Subcommittee. 01:14:43.784 --> 01:14:44.635 Oh yeah. 01:14:44.635 --> 01:14:47.755 What years was that and what did that committee actually do? 01:14:47.755 --> 01:17:38.244 Okay. Um, yeah, no, I kind of got kidnapped into that. But it's like, usually when these like subcommittees pop up, they always need people to like, kind of fill them. And, you know, there's a few people leaving or whatnot. But, I got in that in like 2019, I believe? Because we had some meetings over COVID. It was all Zoom meetings because it was people from breweries from all over the country. But yeah, I, um, I was involved with it. It was like the subcommittee on quality. So a lot of it was just prepping for any sort of quality talks that the Brewers Association wanted to demonstrate, like the lab, the lab in a--Lab In A Fishbowl. That's what it was called. The Lab In The Fishbowl that they always did at the Brewers Association, uh, the craft brewers conferences. And then anything else that might come up to promote quality from either the American Society of Brewing Chemists aspect, or the Master Brewers Association. And we just kind of discussed about programming and talking and any sort of big quality issues that are coming up. Like the big one they were hitting on at the time was hop creep. We're doing excessive dry hops, for usually hazy beers. Uh, ended up maybe causing some refermentation because of the enzymes that were present in these hops were--because one of the bigger innovations that came out last, like fifteen years or so, was to not kiln hops as hot. Because it, it made it like less fruity. Less flavorful, so. But as a result, some of the enzymes that are naturally present in hops kind of went in and maybe did some disassembling of some of the, like dextrins and all that and started creating more simple sugars inside the bottle or can and causing refermentation. And so it was a big quality issue and like how to avoid that. The other thing that came up, and I quit after I got my job outside of beer--I basically resigned my position. They're like, yep, you're outta beer so that's cool. All right. Well, good luck. Um, but, it was the people making non-alcoholic beer, but wanting to make sure that they know they have to pasteurize it. Because that's a big quality concern. Because not only are you having risk of like bottle or can explosions, but pathogenic bacteria too. Because you don't have alcohol. You don't have that aspect that prevents things like listeria and, you know, E coli. 01:17:38.244 --> 01:17:40.314 It's a full different basket of issues. 01:17:40.314 --> 01:18:02.226 Yeah. So that was a big thing that we talked about there. But it was, it was a good time. It was nice because I felt I was coming full circle. And one thing I forgot to mention was I was an intern at the Brewers Association when I lived in Colorado. And I helped work on the craftbeer.com website. And so I--my boss was Julia Herz, who's very famous in the industry. 01:18:02.226 --> 01:18:04.805 Yes. I've met Julia. 01:18:04.805 --> 01:18:45.845 She is a firecracker, full of energy, and she was very proud that I got a job at Stone. Um, you know, felt like she did her part to get some of these craft beer and evangelists in positions there. So, but yeah, she, that was kind of fun. So I got to be there for a year. And then we moved to out here from Colorado to work in the beer, the brewing industry actually in general. So I felt like going back to the Brewers Association, you know, at least on a subcommittee. I was like, oh, I'm doing things! It's good. I'm back here where I kind of started my little adventure. 01:18:45.845 --> 01:18:52.545 Yeah. Contributing to the industry in a broader scale than just, than just the locals. Not that there's anything wrong with just helping the locals. 01:18:52.545 --> 01:18:54.744 That's a hundred percent right. Yep. 01:18:54.744 --> 01:19:10.284 So, so then you were let go from Belching Beaver and you were already kind of looking to, you know, get out of the beer industry anyway. You kind of realized the financial repercussions of working for passion rather than-- 01:19:10.284 --> 01:19:32.234 Yeah. You know, it's, yeah. It is crazy how I was the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times was a very well known, very widely appreciated brewery at the time. And now I'm getting paid about 50% more than when I was--as a Director of Brewing Operations. Which is one of the highest positions in the company, so. It's just the way that it ends up working I think with that. 01:19:32.234 --> 01:19:34.798 Different industries have different pay scales. 01:19:34.798 --> 01:19:35.164 They do. 01:19:35.164 --> 01:19:40.005 It's just the fact of life, sadly. But, are you doing any homebrewing anymore? 01:19:40.005 --> 01:19:48.954 Um, no, I'm not, not homebrewing. I did get a little still, so I've been kind of home distilling. 01:19:48.954 --> 01:19:54.484 Okay. So you're kind of going, I mean, we are seeing more and more distilleries popping up. 01:19:54.484 --> 01:20:29.000 We are. Just, I mean, between you and me, it's just easier to distill because you don't have to worry about the fermentation quality or anything. You just, especially if like, I don't wanna spend like a weekend doing homebrewing anymore, just I'd rather do things around the house. Maybe play video games, but, you know, I'm not a into the, like, spending your weekends, like slaving over hot, you know turkey fryer burner, like I used to. But I do like the idea of distilling. I mean it, like--and it's all stovetop too. The way I do it. So it's, you know, it's simple. 01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.166 Very small batch. 01:20:31.166 --> 01:21:09.364 It's very small batch. Yeah. And so, I make like little, like, you know, like, I call ghetto fermentations of like corn and sugar. Kind of like this, like real moonshine. And I've done like, did a little mash and did some like maybe try to do my stint at like a single malt whiskey essentially. But right now my favorite thing is that they have actually a fair amount of wine in the break room at my wife's work. And so--but no one ever goes through all of that. So we have a bunch of like, half bottles of wine. So I make brandy out of it. 01:21:09.364 --> 01:21:11.784 I was gonna say, you're not gonna drink that are you? 01:21:11.784 --> 01:21:33.484 No, no, no. That's why I just distill it and make a little, uh, a little brandy. And then we put little, um, you can buy from like home brew stores online, like little like swirls or of oak. And then you put that in there. So you have oak-aged brandy. And that's like one of my things I do. 01:21:33.484 --> 01:21:34.274 Oh, how fun! 01:21:34.274 --> 01:22:02.725 It's easy too. Because you just pour a bunch of wine into this, put the lid on, and there's like a little coil and you keep that filled with water to cool it down and just brandy comes out of the condenser. I don't have to do a second distillation on it. It just, it comes around 20% or so. Which is plenty. I've done like the three times distillation ended up with like a mason jar this full of like a hundred and like sixty proof. 01:22:02.725 --> 01:22:04.164 Whoa! Goodness. 01:22:04.164 --> 01:22:13.125 Yeah. I was doing a little bit when I had access to lab equipment, so I was able to measure the potency of what I was doing. As long as I gave a sample to our brewmaster. 01:22:13.125 --> 01:22:20.290 There you go. So, being out of the industry, do you still enjoy any of the local beers? 01:22:20.290 --> 01:22:21.484 Oh, yes. 01:22:21.484 --> 01:22:24.145 Or are you just so focused on your distilling now? 01:22:24.145 --> 01:22:38.125 Oh, no. I'm not. It's like a maybe like once a month thing that I do. But, um, the yeah. Actually our kind of local like watering hole now is Battle Mage Brewing. That's where we go all the time. I actually-- 01:22:38.125 --> 01:22:40.592 I would assume you've walked over to Henebery then? 01:22:40.592 --> 01:22:41.086 Henebery's right there. 01:22:41.086 --> 01:22:43.364 Since they do the rye whiskey. Yeah. 01:22:43.364 --> 01:22:48.204 Yep. Yep. They have like a little, you know, they have a fun little collaboration. 01:22:48.204 --> 01:23:07.204 They're very collaborative. I mean, because I go to Henebery and meet up with friends Friday nights. So they can go down to Battle Mage and get glasses of beer and bring it back to drink it at Henebery. But they can't take the, any of the hard liquors over to Battle Mage. You know, I find that sort of dichotomy very interesting in the, you know, it's like-- 01:23:07.204 --> 01:23:19.000 Just alcohol. It's these alcohol rules, man. It's--they're so arcane and esoteric sometimes, you're just wondering, like, I don't know if you've heard of Yuseff's getting married story? 01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:20.150 No. Mm-hmm. 01:23:20.150 --> 01:23:48.564 Oh, gosh. So, you know, Yuseff being co-founder of Ballast Point then eventually Cutwater. He met his wife, now wife, um, she is the owner, or was the owner at the High Dive. I believe down there. And, you know, they dated and then they wanted to get married and they got married. But when they were processing their marriage license it got denied. 01:23:48.564 --> 01:23:50.414 What? 01:23:50.414 --> 01:24:16.005 Right. And they're like, well, what's the deal here? So it turns out as a result of the legislation that came out after Prohibition, it is illegal, or at least is--yeah, it's illegal or not allowed to have someone who owns a distillery or brewery marry an owner of a bar because they're worried about tied-house. 01:24:16.005 --> 01:24:20.185 Tied-house. That's extreme. That is crazy. 01:24:20.185 --> 01:24:27.965 So she, the, uh, and I totally forgot Yuseff's wife's name. Wife's name. And I'm friends with her on Facebook and everything but-- 01:24:27.965 --> 01:24:30.944 Yeah, and I'm--I know her name and it's, well, it's just like-- 01:24:30.944 --> 01:24:49.505 She speaks German and Spanish. She's lovely. Awesome person. But she had to sell her stake and the High Dive in order for them to officially get married, which they did at Valley High. And it was a whole thing, but they was like, yeah, we tried to get married now part deux, you know? 01:24:49.505 --> 01:24:55.604 Yeah. But the fact that anybody would even dig that up, I mean, we're talking a hundred years ago. 01:24:55.604 --> 01:25:03.164 Right! I didn't even think that. It's like, we know those old laws on the books that nobody enforces anymore. But apparently it's still a thing. They wouldn't allow it so. 01:25:03.164 --> 01:25:03.912 That's crazy. 01:25:03.912 --> 01:25:09.725 I know. I--it was kind of crazy to, I don't even know how they found out. Like how would you look that up? Like really? 01:25:09.725 --> 01:25:09.928 Yeah. 01:25:09.928 --> 01:25:14.244 I mean, because usually it's like, there's this person, there's this person, or you related? No, okay's. Let's do this. 01:25:14.244 --> 01:25:22.284 Yeah. Really, you know, you've done your blood tests and fine, you know? Great. You're now legal. So, oh, that's amazing. I hadn't heard that story. 01:25:22.284 --> 01:25:25.849 No, that's one of my favorite stories to tell, especially for history buffs. 01:25:25.849 --> 01:25:31.085 Well, it's a perfect example of how arcane our laws are and how they need to be cleaned up. 01:25:31.085 --> 01:25:31.704 A hundred percent. 01:25:31.704 --> 01:25:53.835 And of course, you know, with former President Carter passing away at a hundred, the fact that he actually gave homebrewing that kick to become, start commercializing. A lot of people are bringing that up now. And as you know, a way to remember him, you know? Oh, yeah remember Carter was the one that, you know, made home, homebrewing able to go commercial and stuff. 01:25:53.835 --> 01:26:08.614 Yeah. My dad was never a Jimmy Carter fan. Because you know, during--he was in the military at the time and he did a lot of pay cuts for the military. Of course, when Ronald Reagan came into play, we went into a lot of debt to give the military pay raises. 01:26:08.614 --> 01:26:09.784 Which they needed. 01:26:09.784 --> 01:26:16.005 But, he always says like, yeah, that's the only thing, good thing that Jimmy Carter did was legalized homebrewing. 01:26:16.005 --> 01:26:18.326 It certainly wasn't the fact that the brother brought up Billy Beer. 01:26:18.326 --> 01:26:21.164 Yeah. I was like. I was gonna say, I think it was more like his brother. Yeah. 01:26:21.164 --> 01:26:26.234 I think he had to apologize for Billy's beer. 01:26:26.234 --> 01:26:26.244 Billy Beer! 01:26:26.244 --> 01:27:03.305 Yeah. That's wild. Oh, Rick, this has been absolutely wonderful and very intriguing seeing your path through the ins and outs of the San Diego brewing industry from being brewer, but also working it through quality control. Because I think quality control, well, even proper packaging, those are unsung heroes. You know, if you don't treat the product right, it's not going to fly. And especially now after COVID with everybody expecting everything to be packaged, it makes a huge difference. 01:27:03.305 --> 01:27:55.814 No, it's, um, I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that many breweries run into is like really taking it seriously. You can't just like, put things in bottles or cans like you did when you were homebrewing. You really have to think about like, the steps that it takes to get there in order for it to be considered a high quality product. Going in. And of course quality is subjective. It really is. But the fact is, is that, you know, and of course the joke is that, quality is subjective, but it is the same definition as porn. I know it when I see it. You know. Or I know it when I taste it. So it's, you know, it's been hard at certain points to get to that point because a lot of breweries don't take quality issues seriously until it really seriously affects them or their brand. 01:27:55.814 --> 01:28:00.345 And some don't ever take it seriously. And that's the reasons they're no longer open. 01:28:00.345 --> 01:28:01.354 Exactly. Yeah. 01:28:01.354 --> 01:28:04.034 I mean there are some names I could name and I won't. 01:28:04.034 --> 01:28:29.354 Oh yeah, no, same, same. Yeah. But it's always the--it was always the case where if I knew they were trying to take it seriously and sometimes they just didn't either have the financial or the scientific expertise to go through it or the experience to do it, then it's like, I'll take you way more seriously because you want to, instead of some of these breweries that take pride that they don't, sometimes. And there was a few of those. 01:28:29.354 --> 01:28:34.854 Yeah. So, well, on that note, I will end the recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. &#13 ; &#13 ; Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. Description An account of the resource Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-067 Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry Stone Brewing Co. Belching Beaver Brewery Modern Times Beer + Coffee Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- Quality control Brewing industry -- Accidents Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-01-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rick Blankemeier Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marco University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rick Blankemeier License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Brewchive(r) Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marilyn McWilliams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Black Student Center OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 McWilliams, Marilyn. Interview April 5th, 2021. SC027-09 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Black Student Center Black experience Office of Inclusive Excellence Marilyn McWilliams Sierra Jenkins moving image McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93959df71a6dacc7ab6c495d62947c4d.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood McWilliams discusses being raised in Oakland and her early school and family life. They were the first Black family in their neighborhood. Oakland ; middle class ; Oakland Hills 0 277 Path to employment at California State University San Marcos McWilliams talks about the importance of education in her family and the life circumstances and choices that led her to working at California State University San Marcos. education ; civil service ; Associate degree 0 567 Learning about Black history and the Black experience, from childhood to adulthood McWilliams' father played a key role in her experience of Blackness. This was heavily based on their interaction with predominantly white people and focused on equality. jazz ; equality ; imposter syndrome 0 1010 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements McWilliams speaks about how her role in the Office of Inclusive Excellence has made her aware of the current state of racism and inequity. Black Lives Matter 0 1240 Role in the creation of the Black Student Center McWilliams reflects on how her early support of Black students played into the creation of the Black Student Center. students 0 1600 Previous efforts to establish the Black Student Center Marilyn outlines the development of student identity centers on campus. She also reflects on the student leaders who accomplished the approved proposal for the Black Student Center. multicultural center ; Cross-cultural Center ; Latinx Center ; student leaders ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; pushback 0 1991 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes McWilliams speaks in more detail about the student leaders and others who worked tirelessly on the creation of the Black Student Center. Black Student Union ; Associated Students, Incorporated 0 2200 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation McWilliams discusses how students need to see more Black faculty, staff, and administrators on campus. cluster hire ; representation 0 2445 Pushback to the creation of the Black Student Center McWilliams reflects on pushback from students to the creation of the Black Student Center. pushback 0 2551 The Black Student Center Grand Opening and McWilliams' first visit to the BSC after opening McWilliams discusses her pride in experiencing the opening of the Black Student Center and her happiness for the students. Her hope is that the space can be expanded over time. pride ; students ; inadequate space ; Anthony Jett, Sr. ; University Student Union 0 2935 Early focus of the BSC's initiatives, programming, events McWilliams discusses how Black Student Center events focused on bringing Black history and education to campus. Kwanzaa ; Tulsa Race Massacre ; Black women ; Black Panthers 0 3148 The move from Student Success to Student Life McWilliams comments on the history of the organizational structure surrounding the student identity centers including the Black Student Center. student life ; student affairs ; Associated Students, Incorporated 0 3319 Achieving the purpose of the Black Student Center and future needs McWilliams states that growth is still needed for the Black Student Center to achieve its purpose including more space, support, and staffing. space ; staff 0 3460 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on McWilliams McWilliams talks about how to continue moving the Black Student Center program forward. events ; duplication 0 3577 Expectations for the future of the Black Student Center McWilliams discusses her expectations for the new director, John Rawlins III, especially once campus is re-opened post Covid closure. She reflects on the student experience during the Covid closure and virtual learning. John Rawlins III ; Covid ; virtual learning 0 3837 Developing an understanding of Blackness McWilliams talks about coming to her understanding of Blackness during an incident with her son in elementary school. Blackness ; motherhood ; son 0 4269 Final thoughts about the Black Student Center and the Black Faculty/Staff Association &#13 ; McWilliams reflects on her time as president of the African-American Faculty Staff Association (now Black Faculty Staff Association) at California State University San Marcos. Black Faculty Staff Association ; African-American Faculty Staff Association ; outgoing 0 Oral history Marilyn McWilliams retired after 23 years at California State University San Marcos, where she most recently was the Administrative Assistant for the Office of Inclusive Excellence. McWilliams has been particularly active in advocacy and assistance to underrepresented communities on campus, and has been recognized by the Black Student Union at their awards night, named a Civility Champion, and received the Jonathan Pollard Award for social justice through student affairs. In her interview, McWilliams gives an in-depth account of her Black Experience starting with her childhood. McWilliams considers her childhood connection to education and how that led her to an administrative role at California State University San Marcos. McWilliams also discusses the CSUSM Black Student Center, her function in a supportive capacity, and the important role students' advocacy played in the creation of the Center. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Today is Monday, April 5th, 2021, at 3:02 p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Marilyn McWilliams for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Marilyn, thank you for being here with me today. 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Thank you, Miss Sierra, for having me. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:38.000 Of course. So we're going to just jump right into it, the questions. First one I have is where were you born? And where did you grow up? 00:00:38.000 --> 00:01:03.000 I was born in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, but I was raised in Oakland, California. We moved to California when I was six, six years old. So I was raised in Northern California. In the last 23 years I've been here in Southern Cal. 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.000 So interesting. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:19.000 And when you think about that, Sierra, that is like full circle. O, Oklahoma to Oakland. And now I reside in Oceanside. Full circle. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:30.000 Really? That really is full circle (laughs). It was meant to be. So tell me about your childhood growing up in Oakland. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:03:38.000 I had a pretty good childhood, growing up. I think we moved to California for better opportunities. My father had graduated from Langston University in Oklahoma and moved the family. I'm the baby of four. And actually, I'm sorry, I'm the baby of five. I found out I had another sister in Oklahoma. She's in Oklahoma, but my father moved the four of us and my mother here, to California for better opportunity. He got a job at a high school, Castlemont High in Oakland. And for me, that's when I started school. I started kindergarten and at the age of six in Oakland and I had a pretty good childhood, never wanted for anything. I considered myself basically growing up middle-class and that was very important for a Black family during that time and when we did move out here, nothing but the best for my father. We moved to the Hills, Oakland Hills and we, I can't say if we were the first Black family in our neighborhood, but if we wasn't the first, we were the second, ‘cause it wasn't many of us in my neighborhood growing up. But I think that my childhood prepared me for you know, what was ahead. My mother worked in civil service and my father in education and, like I said, I've never wanted for anything. And, I had a very good foundation. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:44.000 How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? 00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:17.000 Ooh. That's a, that's a pretty deep question. Me. Okay. How did that come to my understanding of Blackness? Let me think on that one. Let's come back to that one, Sierra. Cause that kind of took me off guard. Let me kinda’— 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Okay. Not a problem. Let me see what it said. And your childhood, what were you taught about in your childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? 00:04:36.000 --> 00:09:17.000 I was taught that we could be anything that we wanted to be. I was taught that education was very, very important in order to get to where you want it to be. School was drilled in us. Like I said, my father was in education. I think it was drilled in us so much so that I wanted to steer away from it. It was just, my father made us like homework, whether or not you have homework in that particular, especially when you got to like junior high, we, back then we had elementary, junior high, then high school, junior high started at ninth grade. Am I aging myself? Cause that's not it now. Junior high started at ninth grade and you had like different classes, six classes. And I remember my father was like it doesn't matter if you have homework in that particular class that night you bringing all your books, all five of your books home and you're going to be studying. So, I know that for me, school wasn't—it was important, but for me it was, I’m kind of over it. So by the time I graduated high school, I knew I had to go to college, but I didn't want to. And so I started working, and I went to a junior college directly out of high school, and I completed one year and then I had a car accident and I took a year off. And once I did that, it was like, who wants to go back? But I did. I went back and I got my AA (Associate of Arts). That was it. In that time, I had fell in love, met this man and fell in love and going away, like out of state to college or anything like that—it just was not in the cards for me. I got my AA. We're talking about back in the early eighties. I think that was ‘81. And it's like, I'm set. I got my degree. I'm set. So I started out on the work field and like I said, my mother worked in civil service, and she had worked there and retired after 25 years. And I said, I could do that. So I got me a civil service job and I said, this is where I'm going to, I can do this. I'm good. And until, did 13 years there until the base closed, and then it's like, oh my God, now, what am I going to do? So the best thing for me to do was to try to get back in college, but I still wasn't feeling it, you know, and I ended up moving here, and remarried, and during that time I had divorced my husband, but I remarried, and I moved down here and after a year down here, I lucked up and got a job at Cal State San Marcos. They had just opened up the Early Learning Center, the first childcare center on campus. So I started working there and when I started working there, it was working as a—just coming in to get the books up and running for the Early Learning Center, and it was an eight-week position. I was hired knowing that it was only a temporary position, that eight-week present position. But after my eight weeks was over, the program director at that time felt the need that they needed someone longer. So then that's where my career at Cal State San Marcos began, and I’m very fortunate to say, 23 years later, I'm still here. What turned out to be an eight-week position into that being 23 years for me and I'm very thankful for that. But I think I detoured from the question you asked me, what was I answering, Sierra? I'm sorry. 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:26.000 No problem. That was really interesting. I was asking about, how, what was your taught experience about Black history, experience? 00:09:26.000 --> 00:12:13.000 Yes, my, like I said, my dad's in education, so we were taught and he actually was a musician. He played the saxophone, so, jazz, listening to jazz was like, you know pretty good, but as far as we were taught that we were just as good as everyone. And by my father being in education he was surrounded by whites. So you know, things, parties and things that he would have at the house, it will be a mixture. So I've always seen a mixture, and everyone should be treated equal. And we were just as good as the next person. So I was taught that you don't— such a cliche, you know—you don't see color, but you know that it's there. You know that others look at you differently. The high school that I went to was predominantly white, predominantly, because of the neighborhood that I lived in and where we went, and it's just like, if now I go, I look back at that high school and it's predominantly Black is like, what a difference generations make, where people start, more Black people started moving towards the Hills moving in the Hills, so like I said, we were one of the first, if not the first in our neighborhood, but most, more started moving and in today's this like—and I think that when I be talking, I don't know where I be going, but I probably steered away from that question again, so I think I need to just leave it there. My parents really did instill the importance in us that we can do and be anything that our hearts desire. But for me back then, all I wanted to do was be a housewife and a mother. I wanted babies. I wanted to be, but I also knew that you needed, you need it more in order to sustain. So. 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:34.000 That's really interesting. And you mentioned how, right after you finished high school, you went to junior college and then you were in the workforce for a bit. During that time, did you learn anything new or different about the Black experience or about being Black yourself? 00:12:34.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Not me personally, no, because me growing up as a child, I never had to struggle or want for anything. So, I never felt that for me personally, I never felt that. And I think my type of, I don't know, probably because of how I raised, because my mother was such an outgoing person, I never felt unwanted. I never felt as if when I walked into the room I wasn't wanted there. But I've always been a somewhat shy type of person, so I never wanted to be the person to stand out, but yet still, I always ended up being the person that stands, that stood out because I think, because I was loud and always wanted to make someone smile, you know, just, I wanted to bring joy. And then I would find myself being like the center of attention that I never ever, ever, ever wanted, but it always ended up like that. And then I'll walk away and say, how did I just do that? But I've never, ever felt unwanted or, not or looked upon as someone less than. I never felt that in my life, even working at Cal State San Marcos, at a university. I did feel—that's sometimes inadequate in parts, partly because I only had an AA and here I am working at an institution, a four-year institution where degrees were so important. Bachelors, masters, doctorates, you know, so important, but even working there I still never had that desire to go on. And probably because of my experience, I still was able to be me, if that makes sense. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000 It does. 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:59.000 I felt, I think sometimes I did feel less than because I only had an AA, but that AA didn't really define me if that makes sense? 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:05.000 Yes. So kind of felt like imposter syndrome type thing? 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.000 Probably. Yeah. Why am I here? 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:10.000 Yeah. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:21.000 I deserve to be here, too, but do I? But I'm still here. So I guess, yes, yes. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:46.000 Yeah. That's actually a great segue into our next question. How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:16:46.000 --> 00:19:10.000 It. How has it affected me? It affected me in a way that it's sad to see the world in the state that it is in right now. Especially with everything that's going on now. Like I said, all of that was not part of my upbringing or who I am as a person. And I guess I must've always just surrounded myself around individuals that didn't feel the way, like some, like a lot of people out there are feeling social justice, Black Lives Matter. Especially working in the department that I work in. We get, I work in the Office of Inclusive Excellence, and we get a lot, you know, inequity things that are happening on campus with our people. But how did it affect me? Oh. Affects me to the point of will it ever end? It’s, I don't understand it. I don't understand. And I know, you know, why can't people see us all as humans? We're all human, everyone has their own experiences, their own—okay, Sierra, I need to articulate that a little better. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.000 You’re doing, you’re doing good. 00:19:13.000 --> 00:20:22.000 And it's like, how did it affect me? I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how it affected me. Maybe, I don't know. It's sad. It's sad to see. It hurts me to see how a lot of people, I know people that don't know how a lot of people are treated. It’s sad for me to see how – not sad. It's, it's like, I don't understand how, well I guess I do understand because it's how people are raised. But I don't understand how people can look at an individual and just think that they're not worthy to be here to occupy this space, to offer input or, I don't know. I think I'm just rambling. So, let's go to the next one. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:23.000 Okay. 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000 That one stumped me. 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:41.000 (Laughs) It is another deep one. This one goes more towards your experience at San Marcos specifically. What role did you play in the creation of the BSC? 00:20:41.000 --> 00:26:10.000 Not much of a role. I understood the students. I understood their need and desire to have space of their own. And since I, I think since I started working, working there, I think the way that I found my calling, because remember I stated earlier how I pretty much felt somewhat inadequate because I only had an AA. So working there when I first started, I started off in the Early Learning Center with the little babies and as the admin person working in the Early Learning Center, which was very, so fulfilling. Then you get, I got to meet a lot of the students because they will bring their children there and I worked there for about five years, and when a position opened up at the Associated Students (Incorporated, student government) office, working with the board of directors, an admin position opened up there, I applied for it, and I got it. So then I moved into that position. So now I'm around students, all kinds of students, and they're the ones that's pretty much running the association. And they're technically like our bosses, but, you know, the staff is there to make sure that they're doing everything according to code, Title IX policy and all of that, but they were technically our bosses. I found my calling during that particular time because I felt more of a mother figure to the students and the Black students really kind of cultivated towards me. Like I said, I don't know, sometimes I’m like the loud one in the room. I'm making them feel kind of like a home. I'm like that mother figure, like: what are you doing in here? Shouldn't you be in class or, you know offer things that way where a lot of my other colleagues would offer advice on this is the class you should take, or you know upper division, lower division, all of that type, this is the path that you need to go, or in order to graduate, these are the things, and my role was totally different, you know. Take care of you and make sure you're eating. Did you have lunch today? Or you know just things like that. So that kind of like mother away from home type of situation. So I found myself that way. So I think the students felt, I think they felt that way also because they always came to me, and I've always had an open-door policy no matter where I was, where students can come. So I got their, I understood their need. Ever since I've been there, the Black student, faculty and staff was at 3%, you know, always at 3% at our university and that's not a high number. So it's like, how do we get more and more students? But in order to get students, you want to have faculty that students want to go into a classroom where they have faculty that looks like them. And so, I got that a lot. So the need for them to have their space was very important. And as far as like playing a role, I was that listening ear. So I would listen and I can, I would be able to advise some: well, you know, have you tried, have you talked to such and such, have you did this, have you did that? And then when you get those students that are outspoken and it's like, no, we need action! We need, we need this, we need that, I'm there with my colleagues to help them navigate that. So my role wasn't big, but it was there. It was big enough, if that makes sense. 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:38.000 Definitely. It sounds like you're the moral support, probably the push sometimes people needed to hear. Since you definitely were an ear to students prior to the creation of the BSC (Black Student) Center had you heard a previous like previous push for the center before the one that, that, allowed it to be created this time? 00:26:38.000 --> 00:32:51.000 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Students wanted that. And then, you know, there's no space, so there's no space on campus. Which came first? We got the Multicultural Center, which ended up being the, the multicultural center and that ended up being the Cross-Cultural Center and that on our campus kind of like predominantly, it (was) designed to be for all, but it ended up being more of our Asian, Pacific Islander Desi, it ended up being kind of like the center where a lot of our Asian students kind of like gravitated to. And then I think we got the, the Latin /x Center after that, which ended up being a very small area. But then we got some very outspoken, I mean, even before the (Black Student) Center did become, even before the center five years ago, we got some very outspoken students that would not take no for an answer and demanded the president, where it was so much so, they had help from others, not me as far as like writing the proposal and all of that, more my other colleagues that had their master’s (laughs), their degrees and stuff, to help them put all of that together to bring to the president. I think my role was small, but I think it was, it was there. And I was very proud of them. Very proud of them for how they went about it. At one point as—I do want to mention that I did end up after 14 years with ASI, Associated Students (Incorporated), I did get the position when we first opened our diversity office on campus. Diversity, Educational Equity, and Inclusion was the office that opened up in July 20, no July, where are we? 2021? July 2011, when that office first opened up and then I applied for an admin position there and I got that in November 2011. So when that office opened up, it opened up a more direct avenue for the students to advocate for the space, and our office helped. But my part was just being there to be supportive in any way that I could. And right now, if I was to list those to you, I couldn't even tell you what they were but I do know that with—that's where I was going—see how I'm just going all over the place? I do know that within ASI, it was the very first time that ASI had an all-color female executive board. So we had a Black female for president, a Black female for executive—I forgot what the titles were, a Black female for the diversity rep, and like a Latina female for the vice president of something. So all the execs were females of color. And I do want to say that that year was really, they did so much, but they got so much pushback. And it was really sad to see that. They was, you know, all strong women. I'm hoping that some of them are part of this interview. Naturally they're great. They've graduated, but they were in our office all the time because of how, because of how they were being treated. So I know that when, if they are in the interview, their experience at Cal State San Marcos way different, because they got so much pushback and it was like, they couldn't do it, but they did some amazing work. Amazing. And it was during that particular board when the president decided that yes, we do need a (Black Student) Center. So I don't even know if I answered that question and let me apologize to you right now because I noticed sometimes I hear one and then I start saying something that I may be, so I don't know. I know that you're recording. So if you have the capacity to like, okay, she wasn't making no sense, you know, cut! You know, I have no problem with that because I'm probably just going off on a tangent, like I am now. So I’m gonna’ be quiet. 00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:08.000 No, that's totally fine. You answered the question perfectly and then actually it actually goes into the next one. Cause it sounds like those women were kind of like unsung heroes that maybe not everyone knows about when it comes to the BSC. 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Absolutely. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.000 Yeah. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Absolutely. Like I said, I truly hope that they are part of the interview process. I believe the director, well, I did reach out to one of the students that I'm hoping that the director of the BSC has contacted her, but I do hope that these students are part of this interview process because I know that they will be able to share a lot of information, especially from the student perspective. 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:58.000 Yeah. Who are the different leaders that like spearheaded the BSC project? 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000 The different leaders? 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:11.000 Yeah. Like who were the main people you would say advocated or were central to creating the Black Student Center? 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Oh the students definitely, the BSU, the Black Student Union president at the time. And not just the president, but the Black Student Union student organization, a lot of the students there, as well as the execs in the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board of directors. So the—I'm sorry, I just, I just saw your cat and my mind—No, no, no, it's not you it's like, Ooh, she has a cat. I'm sorry, Sierra (laughs). 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:05.000 You’re totally fine! I was surprised they've been good this long, this far in (laughs). 00:35:05.000 --> 00:36:20.000 But the students definitely, I would say definitely they are the main ones too, that make, and they wasn't even here wh- oh yeah. When we opened the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board, they were graduating, but some of the students from the Black Student Union student organization wasn't even here for the opening (of the Black Student Center). They had, you know, they had since left. They wasn't even here for the opening to the, to see that. But the ASI, the ASI executive board were. So I'm thankful for that because I'm thinking about the opening now. And the three of them were there at that, but I will say the students were the main force, but they had help. They had help from some faculty. We have our Sharon, Dr. Sharon Elise at the time. Dilcie Perez, Ariel Stevenson, a lot of the faculty and staff, they were there to help support them, but it was mainly a student effort. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:37.000 Okay. That also leads into the next question. What did staff faculty, and especially students, since they were central to this, that were involved in the creation of the BSC, what did they feel they needed? 00:36:37.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Ooh. They needed. I know that a few of my colleagues were able to help with the proposal. Would that be a proposal? The writing, you know, the letter to the president, I know that a lot of the, a lot of my colleagues were able to assist with that. The letter, to get it to the president's office and, and make sure that it was in a… format. If that's the word I'm looking or a different word, but format, that would be looked at and not just pushed to the side, you know it, that made in such a way that, okay, we can't like, not just ignore this. So. That wasn't even your question. What was your question again? 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:06.000 You're answering it. What did the students feel they needed? And you were saying how the letters they were getting helped with that sort of thing. 00:38:06.000 --> 00:39:38.000 Yeah. And they needed to, they needed to know and needed to feel that what they were asking for was something that was needed and not just—something that was really needed and not just: we're asking just to be asking. And they needed that for them, you know? And there's more, and that's why now we're into cluster hire, because even the Black Student Center has been here for five years, going on five years, and we still are not where we should be at with faculty hiring, administrative hiring for the African Americans, you know, for the Blacks. We, there's definitely more that needs to be done, but that was a step in the right direction. But there's still more that needs to be done. 00:39:38.000 --> 00:40:01.000 Yeah. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You mentioned it was more students. So what maybe what was their, what did they communicate? Was there a vision for the BSC? 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.000 Hm. I'm not sure how to answer that one. 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:26.000 Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. Was there external or institutional pushback to the creation of the BSC, or did you experience or witness any pushback upon the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:43.000 Hmm, not sure how to answer that either. I'm not really a social media person, I'm on Facebook, but I don't do the Instagram or, you know, so hmm. Was there pushback? 00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000 Yeah. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:41:15.000 I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure there was pushback in the beginning, but I think it got to the point where, because I'm pretty sure that like this last group, it wasn't the first one to bring this up to the president and to administration. And now I'm not sure how to answer that question, Sierra. 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:25.000 No problem. Maybe. Did you, were you aware of any pushback from other groups of people to the creation of the Center or… 00:41:25.000 --> 00:42:25.000 Oh, that way. Yeah. Yeah we got pushback because then you have students start asking for white center. So, but I don't really know how to answer that question as far as pushback, what type of pushback? You know, there were students that, especially when they were talking about opening the Black Student Center, they, yeah. There were students like, we need this, we need that. Why are we having that? I mean you, you're going to have that, but how extensive that was, I can't answer that. 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:31.000 No problem. Were you at the BSC grand opening? 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.000 Absolutely! It was wonderful. 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:44.000 How did you feel the first time you visited the Center once it opened? 00:42:44.000 --> 00:45:34.000 I felt pride. I felt overjoyed. I felt like now the students, and I'm looking at it from a student point of view, now the students can really feel like they have some place to call home here on campus. I felt, I felt prideful. I felt, yes! I felt like, okay, let's, let's do this. I felt as though the place was small and it was going to, it will be outgrown in two weeks, but it was the beginning, it was the beginning and the right direction. And I felt with what they had to, what they had to work with—‘cause I don't know how all of that stuff works. How do you find space on campus? And when you do that, and I know that when that was happening, they had to do away with another space that one of the student orgs had. It was, we had a like serenity type an office and then an area where you can go in and wash your feet before you go pray. And all of that, we had that area. And so they had to take that away. So I felt bad for those students because they were losing their space or they were sending them, giving them someplace else. But in order, it was just, I don't know. It was, you get rid of one in order to move one in and then it's still not really adequate, but it’s what you have. And at least you have something, you know, so I felt good about that. At least they have something and then maybe it can be expanded at a later time. But the mere fact that they did have a space, I felt very happy about that. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:42.000 That's amazing. What was the grand opening like? I want to hear that, more about that. 00:45:42.000 --> 00:48:11.000 We had speakers, the new director was hired at the time. Anthony Jett, he's no longer there. But the students, the Associated Students (Incorporated), they pretty much ran it. Not ran it (the Black Student Center), the program itself. They were the president of ASI, her name was Tiffaney. Her name is Tiffaney Boyd. They pretty much had a role. I'm trying to think. We had speakers there. It was like an open house where we were able to, first we were out in the amphitheater with just like a very nice program. And we toured, we had sororities from other campuses come and it was a big, festive event. And it was wonderful. There was all the students were so happy. It was wonderful. And, you know, I had on my little—kente, what did I wear? I was all gold. I was cute. I was cute that day! It was very festive. The president was there to cut the ribbon, and the students were all up there. I'm pretty sure I have some pictures somewhere from that time, but it was, it was a magical moment. It was wonderful. And it was in the (University) Student Union. The Student Union had just, I can't even remember time, but it was fairly new and like the perfect place for it to be. So by that time we had the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin /x Center, the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQ, no, no, no, the Pride Center. It's not LG. It's just called the Pride Center. So we had all those centers in our Student Union. And it was like, okay, this is what's it, this is happening! This is good. So I felt very prideful. 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.000 That sounds like so much fun. I wish I was there. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:35.000 Then I walk in. ‘Cause you know, like I told you, me being who I am and stuff like that, I walked in. It's like: yeah, mama bear here! Hey! How y’all! You know, I walk in all loud and they sit behind their desk and it was just, it was like open arms. So it felt good. 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:55.000 That is amazing. Now this is more about the early days of the BSC (Black Student Center). Tell us about the early focus of the BSC’s initiatives, like meaning programming, events, and their focus. 00:48:55.000 --> 00:51:55.000 We had some very good events. The focus was bringing Blackness and history and education to campus. I remember we had a event, a program with the Tulsa massacre. And I think we had an event with the founder of Kwanzaa. We had an event I think that year for the opening. I can't remember when we opened, but the, right after the opening, that first March was Women's History Month. So, the director made sure to recognize and honor all of the Black women at Cal State San Marcos. Faculty and staff, and to just, you know, recognize all of them. So it was a day set aside for that, which was wonderful. And I'm sure there's more events that I just can't think of off the top of my head right now, but it was like just going to those events, some were evening, some were during the noon hour. But going to those, it was like, Oh my God! You know, like even the Tulsa massacre, just like hearing about all of that. We had Black Panthers, it was an event where some of the members from Black Panthers was there. So, it was all about promoting history, Black history, and it was fabulous. It was just, it was good and it has continued but you know, now with this pandemic, it's been hard this last year, especially when we got our new director (John Rawlins III), I can see great things are coming. Great things will be coming, but just with this last year, things had to shift. Things had to change. But I think the pride in just educating Black history is his focus and goal and (he’s) doing a great job. 00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:28.000 That's so interesting. And I love that focused on Black history because oftentimes we aren't taught our correct history, you know, so it’s really important and awesome that they did that, especially so early on. Why was the Black Student Center moved from Student Success or Black excellence to Student Life? 00:52:28.000 --> 00:54:20.000 They, I don't know. They changed, well students, it used to be student. I don't know if necessarily changed. I think just the name changed. Changed because Student Life, what did they used to be called? SLL. Student—I'll have to look at one of my t-shirts to see what the SL is, but it's not necessarily changed because they've always been up under Student Affairs. They've always been part of Student Affairs and the student life center, all of this, not all of the centers—all of them have always been part of Student Affairs, but with, like the Pride Center and the Gender Equity Center was part of Associated Students (Incorporated), but then they branched off from Associated Students into Student Life. So that those twos’ kind of like move, but all the other ones have always been part of Student Life. So I'm not sure where that, that question you might have to check with director of the Black (Student) Center for more because I know that they just re- Student Life just, is it Student Life? They just recently changed their name. So they changed it to Student Life? They used to be. Yeah. See, I don't know. 00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:44.000 Okay. No problem. Were there any, or what are some of the wrinkles that had to be worked out in the early days of the Center? 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.000 I don't know. 00:54:46.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. You actually mentioned this a bit, but the main purpose of the Center's creation was to, you know, have a, a place of community for the Black students on campus, place where they can learn about their history and just feel a sense of community. How do you feel like this purpose has been accomplished? Or do you think we're still working on working towards that? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:56:39.000 I think that yes, but there's still growth needed. And if that growth needed as far as more space, more support as far as like, employees to help, you know, yes, the students play a great role, but—a great important role—but students tend to leave. They graduate, they move on. And so, you know, to have like a strong foundation where you have a director and, you know, a couple coordinators or, like full-time staff there, would be helpful. I don't think I answered that question. So ask me that question again. 00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:52.000 You answered it, but I'll ask it again. You mentioned the main purpose. How do you feel like it's been accomplished already? That was the main question. 00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:19.000 Oh, yes. And no. I mean, yes, we accomplished because we have it, but there's going to always be more that needs to be done and more that can be done. So we're not finished, by no means are we finished. 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:40.000 Thank you for that. Um, what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? 00:57:40.000 --> 00:59:09.000 Just the mere fact of knowing that one piece has been accomplished. We got it. So now let's make use of it. Let's make it bigger and better. Let's do all that we can in order to keep promoting. Let's not stop. And even though, like I had mentioned a couple of the events, sometimes events need to be duplicated because you have a different audience, you know, you have new students, you have new freshmen, sophomores that probably wasn't here years ago to see some of the fruits from the events that took place earlier. So sometimes, sometimes things can be duplicated in order to continue the education, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think I'll stop there. 00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.000 Okay. 00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.000 Probably said to yourself, Lord have mercy. 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:20.000 No, It’s been interesting and so amazing. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:24.000 Thank you for making me feel good. 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:40.000 No problem, it's true. Like I'm, I'm being serious cause I'm new to San Marcos. So all of this stuff is brand new to me, so I like hearing about it. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? 00:59:40.000 --> 01:03:21.000 I expect to see John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) do amazing things. He has the energy, and he has the means to bring amazing, new and amazing things to campus. So I expect for—I expect to see some great energy and great education coming from the Center, especially once we get back to campus. Everything is just so, you don't really understand and realize the effect, because this is new to everybody, the effect that this pandemic has had on many, and you don't know cause, like I've realized during this pandemic that depression, loneliness and all of that, all of that stuff is real. And you don't know what individuals are going through. Especially students from like a virtual learning environment to, what if you’re the type of student that you're visual or you're hands on and you can't get that now. And so how is that impacting your ability to learn and to grasp and to understand and to move on from this. So I'm hoping to see great things once we are out of this pandemic and once we're able to move back to campus. And like I said, especially with the implementation of the cluster hiring, I'm hopeful that we're getting ready to get more Black faculty, possibly Black administrators here on campus. I really feel in my heart that our new president (Ellen Neufeldt) she's on her, just completed her—is she going on her second year or first year? But I think that coming this July, I think this will be her second year. I think she gets it. And I think that that is going to be all the difference in the world for Cal State San Marcos, to really, especially where we're centralized, where we are here in North County, North San Diego County to be a little bit more diverse. I think our president now gets it, understands it, believes it, feels it, and is gonna’ make sure that it happens. And I see that in the future. And I don't even know if that that was your question? 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:23.000 It was my question! 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:30.000 And I know I’m, saying that a lot so you know, you will have to cut that, but I'm just being me, Sierra. 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:45.000 I love it. It's fine. And yes, you answered the question perfectly. Did you want to go back to that previous question about, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? 01:03:45.000 --> 01:08:46.000 Hmm. I'll use this as an example. I came to my understanding of Blackness when my son was in the second grade. And like I told you, by this time I'm in Oakland and the school is not predominantly white at the time. You know, it was getting to be a mixture, but I started having problems with my son in school with this teacher, I'm getting phone calls every single day, every day about him doing this, him doing that, you know. What I think what hurt the most is when I had to go to the school to have a conversation with the principal because on my son's report card, the teacher wrote on there that he has, how did she phrase that? Animalistic behavior or something, something she said in that sense? And I'm like, whoa, that was you know, or is she calling my son an animal? Why teacher? But that made me realize, well, how can you put something like this on an important document? And it was one of those situations where I'm constantly getting calls, I'm taking off work, I'm going to class, I'm going to school, I'm doing everything that I needed to be doing. And then for her to put something like that. So I think at that point, it's like, is she calling my son out as a you know, is this because he's Black? And I'm using this as an example because I'm trying to think of how did I come to my real realization of Blackness, of being Black. And that took me for a loop. Later on I began to realize, later on—my son is 38 now. So I'm saying this was back in second grade. I think back then, my son realized at the time that he can get to this teacher and now thinking back on it, I think that she was afraid of my son. A second grader! How old are you? How old are you that? So I have a granddaughter who is seven in the first grade. So you're like, eight, and for teacher to be afraid of a eight-year-old child at that time. And then to say things like that. So naturally I went to the principal's office and I wanted him moved. I wanted him moved out her class because I didn't think that that was healthy. And you know, for him, definitely not, for me, it just, it was like one of those that sent me back like, wow. And that's kinda’ like the only thing that I can kind of like think of right now, coming back to that. But yeah, I think that, that time she was afraid of him and didn't know how to articulate it and but to articulate like that is demeaning. And that let me know that something wasn’t right with her to feel that way and to put that, you know, he ended up—he's married. He’s doing well. He ended up being, he's like one of those giant, what do you call them? Who's real quiet. Quiet giants or no that's not, what's that saying? 01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:47.000 A gentle giant? 01:08:47.000 --> 01:09:29.000 Yes, thank you! And that he ended up that for that's how he is now. He’s about six two, and just so gentle, soft-spoken and it was like, you know. But anyway, sorry, that's the only thing that I can think of. I'm pretty sure as soon as we, soon as we end, this is like a whole bunch of things are going to pop up and say, you should have told her this, you should have said this, but right now? I'm not, I'm not feeling any of it. I don't have the words are just not there. 01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:48.000 That's fine. And I'm glad you guys are good now, but I'm so sorry that happened to you and your son at the time. And I just hate that, you know, as Black people coming into our Blackness always has a, there's always a hand in trauma and you know, discrimination. 01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:52.000 Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. 01:09:52.000 --> 01:10:01.000 Yeah. But thank you for sharing. And my last question is, are there any questions that I should have asked that I didn't? 01:10:01.000 --> 01:13:14.000 You asked some pretty tough questions, Sierra. They were good, but they were tough. And I just hope, I only hope that I'm not a good, um, it's so funny. I'm not a good public speaker. I'm not a good interviewer. And it's so funny that I'm saying that to say, when I came to work for Associated Students (Incorporated) on campus, probably the first year we have a faculty staff association, African-American Faculty Staff Association that has since been renamed. It used to be African-American Faculty, Staff Association, AAFSA, but once the Black Student Center came on board, they renamed it to Black Faculty Staff Association to be more in alignment, more in unison with, we had the Black Student Union, which was a student, which is a student organization. Then we got the Black faculty staffs no, the Black Student Center. And so then that's when they wanted to rename AAFSA to the Black Faculty Staff Association. But back then, when I first came to Associated Students (Incorporated), they needed a president for the African-American Faculty Staff Association. And because, you know, we're, our numbers. We're just. Multiple people have served that role before, but you're just so limited that after I was there for like about a year, they asked me to do it. And of course, I no! I can't be no president, president, no! And it's so funny because a lot of my colleagues, you know: we're here for you, we'll be here, blah-blah-blah. So I said yes, ended up in that role for two years. And with that is like, when we would have functions or a recognition ceremony, we have our signature, soulful luncheon, all those things I'm up on that podium, it's like just the, nervous as all get out. I can't do this, I can't do this. And then you get me up on that podium with that microphone. And I just wouldn't be quiet. I'm just up there just blah-blah-blah-blah. You know? And it just, for whatever event it was, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. So it's like, why am I even telling you, why am I even saying this? I don't even know why? I brought it up for a reason, I lost my train of thought, but—I don't know Sierra. And like I say, when I get off this call, I'm going to say, yeah, I knew that's why I was bringing it up. I brought that up for a reason, but I don’t know. 01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:19.000 Oh my goodness. 01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:26.000 I think we need to end this while I am ahead. If I am ahead. (laughter) 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:30.000 You're doing so good, don’t doubt yourself. 01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:32.000 Just being myself. 01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:35.000 Alright then. 01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:40.000 Well, I appreciate you taking the time out with me. Hopefully your other interviews will go smoothly. 01:13:40.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Oh my gosh, this one went perfectly and thank you for taking your time for me as well and this project as a whole. And your input is so important to this project and just thank you. And now I'm going to stop recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource McWilliams, Marilyn. Interview April 5th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Marilyn McWilliams retired after 23 years at California State University San Marcos, where she most recently was the Administrative Assistant for the Office of Inclusive Excellence. McWilliams has been particularly active in advocacy and assistance to underrepresented communities on campus, and has been recognized by the Black Student Union at their awards night, named a Civility Champion, and received the Jonathan Pollard Award for social justice through student affairs. In her interview, McWilliams gives an in-depth account of her Black Experience starting with her childhood. McWilliams considers her childhood connection to education and how that led her to an administrative role at California State University San Marcos. McWilliams also discusses the CSUSM Black Student Center, her function in a supportive capacity, and the important role students' advocacy played in the creation of the Center. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-09 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Marilyn McWilliams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Marilyn McWilliams Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aaron Williams Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Merryl Goldberg OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. music;activism;arts education;censorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-078 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Christine Frazier Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy HG Solomon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025 SC027-079 57:03:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos -- Faculty ; California State University San Marcos. School of Arts ; California State University San Marcos. Biology ; California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective ; Physarum polycephalum ; Artificial intelligence ; Art and artificial intelligence ; Interdisciplinary approach in education ; Border Art Collective ; Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) ; Mars Rover Project ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Environmentalism in art ; California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Lucy HG Solomon Christine Frazier sound HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4e72dfbca93bb6ce80c3ebed9f23b333.mp4 Other video English 1 Introduction Christine Frazier, a graduate student at CSUSM interviews Lucy HG Solomon about her work as an artist and a professor. CSUSM ; Lucy HG Solomon ; art 0 ["[\"\"]"] 33 League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA, and the Mars Rover Project on Oileán Ruaidh Lucy HG Solomon discusses her work with the League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA and the Mars Rover Project on the Irish Island, Oileán Ruaidh. She discusses how Oileán Ruaidh resembled Mars with its red soil, and the significance of such work. She created a reverse NASA study where she examined the future of the island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. They were asking questions such as: Is Earth going to look like Mars in the future? League of Imaginary Scientists ; NASA ; Mars Rover ; Mars ; Oileán Ruaidh ; Lucy HG Solomon 0 [""] 389 Planet Mentorship Project and Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, Sustainability Manager at CSUSM Lucy HG Solomon discusses the Planet Mentorship Project which she worked on with Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, the Sustainability Manager at CSUSM. She discusses thinking about how students relate to the planet. It is an interdisciplinary project which pairs mentorship, art making, and community building together. Ariel Stevenson ; Peace Corps ; Juliana Goodlaw-Morris ; Planet Mentorship Project ; data visualization 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 836 Student involvement in Data Stacks at the Kellogg Library Professor HG Solomon discusses motivating students, and how it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. Students have contributed to the art exhibition Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library Kellogg Library ; Data Stacks ; CSUSM library ; grants ; art exhibitions 0 [""] 897 Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil Professor HG Solomon discusses her work with Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil. She earned a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Campinas in Brazil in 2018. They also began the art collective titled Cesar and Lois. Her interdisciplinary work focuses on art and science while integrating technology. Cesar Baio ; University of Campinas ; Brazil ; Fulbright ; Artificial Intelligence ; Cesar and Lois ; art collective 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 981 Lumen Prize for Artificial Intelligence Professor HG Solomon discusses how she won the Lumen Prize in her art exhibition that to made a statement about what technology serves. &#13 ; She discusses questioning the trajectory of technology, and reflecting on AI usage. &#13 ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; Lumen Prize ; technology use 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1167 Nature as a blueprint for technology HG Solomon discuses her work questioning what would happen if nature were the blueprint for technology. She worked with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Biology ; Betsy Read ; CSUSM ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; nature 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1195 Using the yellow slime mold, Physarum polycephalum as a tool to explore AI development and logic. Professor HG Solomon discusses what kinds of logic that governs AI development, while exploring the logic of Physarum polycephalum, a yellow slime mold. She integrates the logic of Physarum polycephalum into city development models. Palo Alto ; Physarum polycephalum ; AI ; Artificial intelligence ; yellow slime mold ; CSUSM 0 [""] 1356 Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Professor HG Solomon describes the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory that has four students work on art projects that bridge art and science. The Data Lab partnered with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Data Lab ; Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory ; Dr. Betsy Read ; Biology Department at CSUSM 0 [""] 1550 Professor Sandra Doller- CSUSM Professor Professor Sandra Doller collaborated with Professor HG Solomon on the text that was tweeted from the Physarum polycephalum project. Professor Sandra Doller ; Physarum polycephalum 0 [""] 1628 Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory- Salk institute Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory investigated a type of plant hormone related to plant growth at the Salk Institute. She hybridized Arabidopsis in order to make agricultural crops like tobacco. Professor HG Solomon contemplates the importance of one day in the life of a plant, and this leads her into discusses the nature of time. Salk Institute ; Dr. Joanne Chory ; Plant biologist ; plant hormone ; time 0 [""] 1908 The passage of time Professor HG Solomon contemplates the passage of time after reading the book The Passion According to G.H. by Clarice Lispector. She shows the viewer models of Earth's timeline from the Big Bang and contemplates how we view time as a human. time ; Clarice Lispector ; The Passion According to G.H. ; Big Bang 0 [""] 2602 Oulanka Research Station Professor HG Solomon discusses how she was commissioned by the Oulanka Research Station in Finland. She explored how to use these data sets that are collecting data about temperature, individual species and soil responses to climate change and how can this data be incorporate into an AI program. Oulanka Research Station ; Finland ; AI 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2936 Mentorship at CSUSM Professor HG Solomon discusses mentorship at CSUSM. David Avalos was her mentor in the arts. He helped her understand the impact of the art she was creating. She emphasizes the importance of collaboration in the arts as a means to grow and learn. She discusses the Cognate Collective, a collective involving Misael Diaz's and Amy Sanchez at CSUSM. She discusses the importance of the Border Art Collective. Cognate Collective ; David Avalos ; mentorship ; Border Art Collective ; collaboration 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3347 Closing The interview concludes. 0 [""] oral history Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Art Department at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses professional collaboration and her interdisciplinary art projects, along with how she uses interactive media to help people understand complex scientific subjects. She reveals the importance of understanding the implications of scientific innovations for students. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.135 --> 00:00:24.015 Hello, this is Christine Frazier and today I'm interviewing Professor Lucy HG Solomon, for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is April 17th, 2025. This interview is taking place at the CSUSM campus. Professor HG Solomon, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:24.015 --> 00:00:25.855 Thank you for having me. 00:00:25.855 --> 00:00:33.585 Could you tell us a little bit about how you came to teach at California State San Marcos and about your career? 00:00:33.585 --> 00:06:22.754 Yes, for sure. I would love to share a little bit about my creative journey. I was part of an art collective called the League of Imaginary Scientists, and that was from 2006 until--really for about 15 years. So around the pandemic, we shifted, but this was an art collective created with collaborators in Los Angeles and had a very playful approach to incorporating scientific themes into interactive artworks. And we had some acclaim. We had the great opportunity of working with NASA to strangely do a study on Ireland--in Ireland, on an island that was in a narrative way, a sister or a twin to Mars. And the island is called Oileán Ruaidh. It means the Red Island in Gaelic. And so this was during the first push to get really the public excited about the Mars Rovers. And we did a reverse future, or a reverse NASA study where we examined the future of this island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. The rovers were asking questions like: was Mars anything like Earth four million years ago? And we were asking, is the earth going to look like Mars in the future? And so we took the same kinds of samples that the rovers were taking and asked the same kinds of questions. I say that as a preamble because it is that kind of work, this community based, environmentally-oriented, interdisciplinary work that drove me to come to Cal State San Marcos. The founding of CSUSM--what is notable because the size and the nature of the faculty, the size of the university, the nature of the faculty, led the campus to be stridently interdisciplinary. That kind of thinking across disciplines allowed me to work here. And I say, allowed me to work here because I had applied for other positions, and really I had to transform myself to become the graphic design teacher or the media arts teacher or an art professor. And I did work at other institutions. And here I could be unapologetically an interdisciplinary artist. So that's what brought me to Cal State San Marcos. And I'm surrounded by colleagues who work in this hybrid way, and sometimes their work is quite fascinating and really drew me to wanna be here. An example is my colleague, Professor Judit Hersko, who like me, really bridges the world of art and science. When I came here, she had--maybe not recently--but had gone to Antarctica as part of an NSF grant. There was another colleague who is now retired, Deborah Small, who is notable because of her work that happened very organically with tribal communities, where she found that she had a very important--really a critical and perhaps threatened plant on her property in Rainbow where she lives. And tribal members ended up coming to her property as a meet-gathering place to develop crafts based around this plant. They ended up collaborating on a book where she photographed native species. And that became a resource, really for that group. And I have that ethnobotany photo group, photo book somewhere in my library here. But I came to Cal State San Marcos totally excited about the faculty here. Really historically important faculty as well, like David Avalos, who has a background working on border art issues with the Border Art Collective and is a prominent Chicano artist who has recently retired, but is quite really a cool guy. In fact, I have some things of his, I have his hot chili pepper that came from somewhere, and there's a book over there that Trader, Survivor, Icon that has his work in it. Thank you for passing that. Yeah. So this is, this features David Avalos's work. This is an important piece that he made that has also exhibited in the Escondido Center for the Arts. So there was this rigor of artistic creation that was evident in the colleagues who were here and a total encouragement to think and work outside of traditional artistic boundaries. 00:06:22.754 --> 00:06:29.305 That sounds wonderful. Could you explain your work on the Planet Mentorship Project? 00:06:29.305 --> 00:13:31.981 Yes, definitely. So as a faculty member at Cal State San Marcos, we balance a research and creative activities trajectory where we get to make art and write about the things that we care about. And, we do--of course, we're professors, we teach, and we also think about how we contribute to the campus community and the community at large. So one of the ways that I have found a way to be involved in the global community and to engage students in thinking about how they relate to the planet is a project that was conceived across different areas of the university. The arts: that's me. And then Juliana Goodlaw-Morris is, she is a former Peace Corps volunteer who really has worked across her professional career thinking about the use of resources. And she heads our sustainability efforts on campus. So she has become a close collaborator when I think about the impact of students' education and also their art on the environment and how to connect those more closely. Then the third person who started this project, and I'll talk about the project in a second, but it's Ariel Stevenson, and she is somebody who is thinking about inclusive excellence. That's her role on campus. And she brought to Juliana and me discussions around inclusive sustainability, how to engage the wider, the broader student body in environmental issues, environmental issues that really touch students in their homes, in their, uh, communities. And yet maybe they haven't studied environmental issues or they haven't developed the tools to really grapple with how they might become involved in the environmental issues across the planet. So we started this program. We started a program called the Planet Mentorship Project, and I am a professor in the arts. My specialty is data visualization. And when I started teaching data visualization, it was not that commonly understood. Now it's so obvious. I think actually COVID really made people alert to graphing in dynamic ways because they wanted to understand complex data sets quickly, and the literacy around data visualization across the world suddenly exploded. I work with students to create data visualizations around their lived experiences with daunting environmental issues and the data sets that are related to those. So in the Planet Mentorship Project, we pair mentorship, art making, and community building. And it's--we have some fun together. I'll show you a couple projects too or I'll talk about a couple projects. This is one student, Aidelen Montoya, who she made a data visualization that looks at the future of sea rises across the globe, but specifically relevant to the Philippines. And as a Filipinx student, she also examined her own ties to the Philippines and started to use beading, which is a traditional Filipino practice, and decided that she would bead these future maps. So this map of 2050 notably has much of the Philippines underwater, and this was an entry point for her to connect more with the place where her mother immigrated from, as well as explore environmental issues. So that's really the goal. Another, another work by Aidelen, I just have a couple of hers here--she looked at redlining in San Diego and made this dynamic embroidered map that really makes an inverse of the redlined areas and invited students who visited the exhibition at the Data Stacks on campus to look at where they're from and to see was this one of the areas that was excluded to someone who looks like me, or in this case, not me, but a student of color and their family. So that project has existed for about--we're in our third year and we are continuing it looking each year for a new cohort of students whom we hope to engage in arts in a dynamic way, and at the same time celebrate their own developing interests in nurturing the planet and examining the very critical issues around environmental injustice and the nuances of how that might have impacted their own family life. Some students live adjacent to factories and only in their critical inquiry really understand the embedded structural challenges that have developed, that have caused hardship and health issues within their families. So it's great. I mean, that's not great. That's problematic, but it is really rewarding to have students get excited about environmental causes which have traditionally not been causes that communities of color have been able to take over. There are often--environmental studies has been an area of study that has been dominated by white students and white scholars. And so you see this intersectional approach also shifting. Who gets to be an environmentalist? Everyone is an environmentalist. We're all affected by pollution. 00:13:31.981 --> 00:13:45.865 For professors or educators that would like to have students do these types of projects, what are some tips or issues that you think they should know about? 00:13:45.865 --> 00:13:50.034 And by? So by types of projects, you mean co-curricular, extracurricular? 00:13:50.034 --> 00:13:56.000 Yeah. Kind of interdisciplinary, getting students to critically examine their own environment and creating, you know-- 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:57.394 This project, the Planet Mentorship Project is a real commitment, and one thing that we do is we pay students. We have a--it's a grant, it's a scholarship-based project where students--and any student can participate--all students on campus are welcome. We usually have the amount of student applicants whom we accept. So it's kind of worked out perfectly. I don't wanna say that the only way to get students involved is to pay them, but it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. And it may be the first time that they feel that they're acknowledged as an artist and a scholar. At the end of the program, we have a panel, the students discuss their work. We have an art exhibition at the Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library. 00:14:57.394 --> 00:15:11.544 Okay. Very cool. And I know, moving on a little bit, that you've also worked with Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Could you explain your work there for us? 00:15:11.544 --> 00:22:32.704 Yes, yes. So around the time that my, that the Art Collective, the League of Imaginary Scientists started to stop doing the kind of crazy art installations we were making around science, like the one that I described of the Inverse Mars Study. I started working with a Brazilian media artist and scholar, Cesar Baio, who is based at Uni Camp, a university in Brazil. It's the state university of Campinas. And we, we started to collaborate sometimes in person. I had a Fulbright to go to Campinas in Brazil as well as a few other places, but I spent a significant amount of time in 2022 there. We began working together in 2018, and we worked also between these disciplines of art and science while integrating technology. So our first artwork actually garnered us a pretty cool prize, the Lumen Prize in Artificial Intelligence. And this is a prize for the arts, for digital art. But this particular sub award, this award was for excellence in critically examining artificial intelligence. And that is what we started to do. We started to make artworks that use scientific principles often through collaborating in labs and with research scientists to make a statement about what technology serves. What the purpose is, how it intersects with society and nature. And that sounds all pretty crazy and complex, and I'll try to say it in a couple different ways. So we also make art that is often living. So we'll make a living sculpture rather than seeing just a piece of wood, it might be a wooden structure that incorporates living plants. And from those plants we receive live signals. Those signals become part of the art project. Our--so Cesar Baio and myself, we have the collective's name is Cesar and Lois, and one of our goals is to question the trajectory of technology, including artificial intelligence. And one example of that is thinking critically about the basis of technology, the basis of AI as a neurocentric or human rewards-based system. So a lot of--most AI systems, all programs, all AIs require data sets. And most of those databases come from--these are training databases and they come from human language models. They also--and those aspire to replicate human logic. Other rewards based training models, reinforce behavior that is very also human. Humans, when we get food, we feel rewarded. When we do certain things, we are also motivated by this internal reward. Hopefully that's not our only motivation. AIs are currently being developed in these ways. So Cesar and I started looking in it from an artist's perspective. So we're not AI specialists, but we incorporate artificial intelligence programming into our sculptures. We started thinking, what if nature were the blueprint for technology? And we started looking first at very simple systems, microbiological systems. We used one organism that we really got turned onto by a biology professor here at CSUSM, Dr. Betsy Read. She gave us a sample of slime mold, Physarum polycephalum. That is a really cool, fast growing yellow organism. It started a whole fashion craze for me where I only wore yellow for a long time 'cause I fell in love with this organism. And I worked with teams of students here at Cal State San Marcos, and we made art installations where Physarum polycephalum would make decisions and we would base our own computer system on that organism. And the big question was, you know, what kind of logic does this organism have? The organism is kind of interesting. It's not unlike some other kinds of networking organisms like, like fungi, although it's not a fungi. It was misclassified as fungi for a long time by scientists and then unclassified. But Physarum polycephalum or slime mold, which you can see out in the world in gardens. It's a networking organism that shares its resources across all of the nodes of its network. And as artists, we went into labs, we had artistic residencies and labs in different countries and different places. And we were able to grow and study this organism and ask, well, what if our own technologies shared resources the way that Physarum polycephalum does this? Um, this kind of wooden structure behind me was a basis for growing Physarum polycephalum. And this is actually a dried, you can't see it anymore 'cause it's all dried up. But that is where we groove the organism across a map of Palo Alto to show would Palo Alto and East Palo Alto--kind of the wealthiest and the poorest neighborhoods in California and maybe even the whole country. We were curious would Physarum polycephalum  organize those cities the same way that humans do? And what we found in our experiments is that Physarum polycephalum will redistribute wealth across its whole network. So we started using, in a way, the microorganism as a tool for data visualization and recalibrating our understanding of how could we logically change how we think about resource distribution, how societies are formulated. 00:22:32.704 --> 00:22:36.144 And what was the student response to discovering these things? 00:22:36.144 --> 00:23:50.000 We had students who participated, so Kodi Gerritsen was a student of mine at the time. She came to Stanford University with Cesar and me, and we presented this project together. There were three other students who worked on that project. And I started what's called the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory. And each semester I have about four students who work on art projects that bridge art and science. This is kind of unusual in the arts, but I was inspired and encouraged by my scientist colleagues. And this goes back to CSUSM being a model for interdisciplinary exploration. When Betsy Reed gave me that sample of Physarum polycephalum, she also said, come into the biology lab and experiment and try to figure out how to grow this in an artistic context. This is so fun. And she also allowed--that's actually very expensive. That's a huge resource. I was able to use that lab bench. And the bio tech at the time really helped me, helped keep alive the organism. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000 True. 00:23:51.000 --> 00:25:11.000 And it was so cool. So, and we did things. We asked questions that maybe the scientists hadn't been asking, like, how do I grow this on a map? How do I grow this on the surface of a book? We started to grow Physarum polycephalum over pages of a book to question in, in many cases, we use Descartes--books about that, questions about humanities, really what Descartes would term as man's control over nature. So we looked at these traditional tenets of Western civilization and what are considered the kind of great models of thinking and Western thought, and started to challenge those with layers of logic on top of those. So we had a computer system that we set up that took photographs of a book as the organism grew across it. And as the organism grew across the book, then the text started to change. So first it would say, only man is the king and queen of nature, only men. We used this, a quote from Cicero, only man can reverse the flow of rivers. And as--that's a paraphrase-- 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Yeah. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:26:24.000 --and as the organism grew across, it would say something very unintelligible. But what was really cool, actually, we had the computer system tweet out the--back when Twitter was a thing instead of, before it evolved--the organism would tweet updated text from the book, devolving this text. And at that time when, when we did this, this was in 2019, we worked with another professor in literature here on campus, Professor Sandra Doller and Professor Doller, she brought her literature students in her critical analysis team, and they workshopped the text that the organism has--had published within Twitter. And they really looked at it as a poem or a body of language. It was really fun. And we filmed that and we have a video of those students' analysis of the living microorganisms. So that's cool. That is a very long background-- 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Yeah. 00:26:25.000 --> 00:28:26.000 --to say that Cesar and Lois, uh, Cesar Biao and I, we, we were working with art and science, and when you asked about our work with the Salk Institute, we had had this body of work already. And so we had been--I guess, tried--we had had some chops proven within this arena of questioning this barrier between art and science that has been erected gradually over years, but maybe is being dismantled quite often at CSUSM And we were invited to and offered a commission to create a work with a biologist, a plant biologist--a plant microbiologist, Dr. Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Dr. Joanne Chory is known for her great scientific breakthrough, which now I think was maybe two decades ago, which was the discovery of a kind of plant hormone. It's not really a hormone, but it's called alchine. Am I saying that right, now? I won't say what it is, a secret thing. Yeah. And she discovered this, something like a hormone that plants release, and specifically the Arabidopsis plant, which is kind of known as a common weed, but in biology labs, it's used quite often to study and--to study hybrids, to create hybrids very quickly. They're, they're great lab rats for plant microbiologists. She, she stu--her discovery of this plant hormone was so cool, because what happens, I think it's, is it oxen? Uh, I'll, I'll find out and get back to you. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000 Yeah. 00:28:27.000 --> 00:33:02.000 Her discovery of this thing, this chemical that gets released, occurs when we didn't know that much about how plant cycles are triggered. And what happens is that the Arabidopsis plant, it's very first exposure, it's first day of light, is so important. And if it gets sunlight, then it grows in a certain way. And if it's in the shade, it grows in a different way for the rest of its life. So if it's in sunlight, it doesn't need to compete with a lot of other plants. So it will not grow long roots, but if it is in the shade, it will grow longer roots. And what that means for other plants and for that particular plant, is that it retains more carbon. Because it's embedding more of its metabolic results in the earth and putting that carbon down. And so she was hybridizing Arabidopsis in order to make vast agricultural crops like tobacco have longer roots and help kind of shift this climate change. What stuck with Cesar and me in her study were the themes of, of course the globe and climate, but also time. How cool is it that one day in a plant's life is so important? In some ways that's true with humans. Of course, what happens to us as babies has an impact. But imagine if it was like whatever happened in that twenty four hours of your life, the very first day is a blueprint for forever. So we started to think about timescales and what is time for Arabidopsis? What is time for microbiological organisms for Physarum polycephalum? For a tree that lives for a thousand years? Like the sequoias? What are these different scales of time? And how can we think about time differently as humans? And if we did, what would it do for our decision making? Like if we could think across a thousand-year span? And then we started to think about, I was reading--this was during the pandemic when we had this assignment, so of course we were thinking about time. And even the project got interrupted for a year because everything was shut down, including the Salk Institute for a period of time, or at least to artists. So we were thinking about time, we were having time slowed down and sped up in the strange way that the pandemic infected our lives. And we were also thinking about the deep planetary time. There's an author, a Brazilian author, Clarice Lispector, who had, during the pandemic especially, become quite popular in the US 'cause she was newly translated, even though she's a classically known, and really thought of as a modernist artist and writer--not artist, but literature contributor in Brazil, Clarice Lispector, amazing challenging author, but really interesting. And I started reading her during the pandemic, her work. And she has one book called The Passion According to G.H. That book is really experimental. And in it, she has some framing of a woman's experience as really dipping into her own framing of prehistoric time. And how she, at some point, the sculptor who is a main character in this book, has an existential moment where she crushes a cockroach and she doesn't--her own feelings of self evolve and she cannot really distinguish herself from the cockroach. And so she's talking about, you know, what is our, my own prehistoric memory? Do I have any memory with this? Do I, what do I share with this cockroach? And so we were also thinking about that. Like, what is time according to the planet? 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.000 Yeah. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:29.000 Prehistoric time? Are the bacteria that we evolved from, do we have, what kind of memories do we have associated with that? Do we have that? How long can our thinking be? And we were thinking about technology because technology is fast, and if we know anything about what, how we use AI in technology, it's usually to cut a corner to get something immediately. 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:30.356 Yeah. 00:33:30.356 --> 00:34:11.045 And one of the worst culprits of this is Amazon. So, I like to use Amazon as an example, because of its famous same day delivery. When it, when the system, the AI system is shooting the data through its code to decide who gets to have same day delivery, what is considered are profits and also convenience. What is not considered is the long questions, the long logic. The long sense of time, like what is the impact on the planet? 00:34:11.045 --> 00:34:12.000 Yeah. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Or on people and populations and culture and communities, when we start to economize our daily interactions and that gets spurred on by these technological tools. And we think of them as tools, but we don't always question the values that they're suddenly implanting. So that's what we started thinking about with Joanne Chory. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.000 Yes. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:37:15.000 With Dr. Chory. Not necessarily with her--with her, we really focused on Arabidopsis and the plant, and we started growing it ourselves. And during the pandemic, I worked with the Data Lab, and we grew and recorded the, the growth of Arabidopsis. We also started collecting plants all over Escondido, where I lived mostly around the specific property where I was living, which was very natural. And, along with the help of my daughter, who was six at the time, we collected many specimens and dried them and used those as part of the artwork. So I have, I have behind me one of the models that we made for thinking about time. So this circle that you see is the history of Earth starting with the Big Bang. And that became one of the models for allochronic cycles, which was a series of clocks that we made. I'll say clocks, but they're not quite clocks, but they were--there are, it's a series of discs that we designed and one was the cosmos. We thought the longest clock was the cosmos' time and for of the cosmos we embedded all of those specimens into holes, into little discs around the clock, around the disc. And then we had an earth cycle, and we had an Arabidopsis cycle, of course. And we had also a Covid cycle that went very quickly because the virus replicates. And for each of these cycles, we really studied all of these different ways of thinking about time, including viral time, and how fast growing and evolving viruses are. Which viruses, apart from infecting individuals and species are really cool, how they can replicate. So thinking about that kind of time, against the backdrop of cosmic time, those are huge leaps. So we really had fun during that whole year thinking about time. And then we made this model of clocks that I'll share an image of that, that is actually behind you we have some of the discs. I could pull one over. 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Sure. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Okay. I'll try not to knock anything over. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.000 Yeah. 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:39.000 Okay. You should have had this ready to go. I'll get the cosmos one. Okay. Let's see this up. Okay. I'll just show this one. 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.125 Yeah. 00:37:42.125 --> 00:38:42.000 There's several discs, but I'll just show this cosmos one, because with the cosmos one, you can really see when it rotates that it has these powdered specimens inside of them. And they start--it's kind of cool, I think, how it like moves. And, so each one of these lights up and is powered, but it's also controlled by an AI. So it's controlled by a program that we wrote that takes into account, it's monitoring all of these different discs. So imagine the cosmos: it's spinning, but you barely notice it. Covid is spinning and it's, it's moving quite rapidly. This all exhibited at the La Jolla Historical Society. And then the following year, actually during the same exhibition, was it the same exhibition? It was, we made another version of it because it toured China and it— 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Oh, wow. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:32.000 --it was cool because at the time we had two Chinese students who were in instrumental to the development of the project on the Data Lab, Ji Young, and that's her first name, and also, Lee who's Ziwei Lee, and he goes by Lee and Ji Young is now, she's a PhD student at the University of Dallas, at the University of Texas in Dallas. And she also got her master's at USC during the pandemic. So this project was really formative for students and the students, especially those two students because of their background in, I think, you know, design coming from China, but also design that integrates planets in some ways. Ji Young had done some work across designing with different kinds of calendars for one of my, one of the class projects. Anyway, they really informed the project. Kodi Gerrittsen also worked on the project, and she now runs the Makerspace on campus. So she, she was, Kodi was instrumental in developing the Data Stacks as well. And so no, all three of the them were, because the Data Stacks opened the year after the pandemic, we, it was ready to open in March of the pandemic year, and then we sus--it was up, but the official opening happened a year later, almost, I think. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:57.000 Yeah. And, as you work on these projects, I think it's evident that you're comfortable and you have a lot of experience working with AI. As the university kind of transitions to using more AI, are there any insights or things that we need to think about as we kind of go into this new age? 00:40:57.000 --> 00:42:07.000 Definitely, yes. Thanks for asking that question. So that project, allochronic cycles, allochronic is a word that means when geological epochs are out of sync or when something's out of sync with its geological epoch. And we started to think that, wow, allochronic, that's what we humans are, we're out of sync with our geology and the Earth. And so is AI. AI is making advanced decisions that is having an impact on the planet. So one of the things that the AIL and allochronic cycles did is there were all of these spinning discs, and the AI represented as a screen. So we always have a visual representation of this program that is graphically moving across the screen. So you have--and in this case, the AI is a replica of the cycles. So you can see these discs spinning, but at the same time, what it's doing is it's looking at the current carbon emissions on the planet, which you can get in real time. So if the AI is collecting that for the day and each day projects out-- 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:07.887 Wow. 00:42:07.887 --> 00:42:14.973 --when the Earth will no longer be habitable if the current carbon emissions are maintained. 00:42:14.973 --> 00:42:15.858 Yeah. 00:42:15.858 --> 00:42:28.678 And so then each day of the clock is the future of--is the day of the clock is like the next hundred to three hundred years. 00:42:28.678 --> 00:42:29.560 Yeah. 00:42:29.560 --> 00:44:02.000 Every day is the Earth's future. And at a certain point in the day, everything stops. And that's when the AI shuts down the clock and says, you know, at this point, the allochronic has happened. Like nothing is in sync. The carbon emissions have made life on Earth no longer possible. As we know it, life on earth as we know it. So that was kind of a challenging--a challenge to AI as well. Even though AI is given this task, it's a predictive task, the question is, really can we make a technology that does take into account the needs of the planet? Our next big project, well, we've had a quite a few projects since then, but we had a commission in the northern forest of Finland. And this was just this past year, we went to the Boreal Forest at the border between Finland and Russia and the North. And we were embedded at a research station, the Oulanka Research Station. And working with scientists who are so dedicated. And I always think of scientists as dedicated. Anyone who is doing research, longitudinal research is doing the same thing for thirty years. That takes so much focus. And most of these scientists, they're coming back--they were for many, many decades coming back to the cold, to the permafrost. 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000 Yeah. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:54.000 Looking, looking--the Boreal Forest actually wasn't permafrost, but in the winter months, looking at their sensors and getting their readings. Now this research station is year long, and they have longitudinal studies and they upkeep these data sets. So one of our goals was to think about how can we use these data sets that are asking questions about temperature and individual species and soil responses to climate change? How can we incorporate that into an AI? And we started to get our own signals. We had started doing this when we worked with a mushroom colony. We, we started getting signals from fungi for another project where we attempted communication with fungi, and that exhibited in Brazil. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.044 Yeah. 00:44:55.044 --> 00:46:09.715 And this project was creating, using the forest itself, the whole--imagine if the boreal forest, the network of forest were the model for the AI. Instead of a human neural network being the model for computer machine, computer processing or machine thinking, what if it's the forest? And the question for that project was really, does a forest make good decisions? Does it make better decisions than humans? Can humans make decisions like a forest? So I, I think for me, my role, as an artist is what many of the artists do here in this department. We look at an issue, we examine it critically, and then we offer other avenues for society. And it's--the artwork is meant as a question mark. It's meant as fodder for thinking and hopefully will propel new directions. 00:46:09.715 --> 00:46:37.744 It's very compelling. It's kind of, looking at AI, I think in a very unique way, a new perspective. I think many in education and elsewhere, it's just like a simple tool that people use and I think a few people even know, like the impact of AI, you know, on the environment. So this is really, really cool. As an educator, how have you used AI in your art classes? 00:46:37.744 --> 00:47:58.000 That's a great question. I have had individual students who use AI to generate projects. And part of my own requirement is that they contextualize and discuss what that means, what is the, the use of the tool. I am looking at and trying to develop a new curricular focus on AI and data visualization, where along with Cesar Baio and his wife in Brazil--is an AI specialist--named Livia Rubeck. And I am hoping to develop a curricular module with them that examines data sets and methods for mitigating bias in AI by eliminating bias in data sets. So it's a, that is Livia's expertise is examining and identifying bias in AI. Examples of that could be simply that, a whole gender is discluded. 00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:59.000 Yeah. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:29.994 So then the results and our understanding of the AI or the decisions aren't going to be as accurate and certainly won't be representative. So I'm curious, I'm not sure how that will play out in the classroom, but that is something I'm currently embarking on, and that I expect will be a year-long study with ideally implementation in the spring. 00:48:29.994 --> 00:48:31.304 Okay. 00:48:31.304 --> 00:48:34.000 So check back. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.585 Definitely. 00:48:35.585 --> 00:48:39.684 In a hundred years. I'll give you the next--no. 00:48:39.684 --> 00:48:57.000 Yeah. And considering that you are, working in the Art Department, are there any faculty that you'd like to review as being, you know, formative in your journey or impacting your work? 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:14.000 Definitely. I think there are--there is the, my particular colleague, David Avalos, who was a resistant mentor of mine. I dragged him into taking on that role-- 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.485 That is funny. 00:49:14.485 --> 00:49:57.000 --and then he became an obstinate mentor, a willing mentor. So he's somebody who really--like I mentioned at the very beginning of this interview, David Avalos is a Chicano artist, very important in the history of border art in Southern California, who has brought--married critical thinking, teaching, and art making within his practice. As a colleague, he really, you know, he knows how to ask the hard questions. And that's sometimes what we have to do. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:02.433 Yeah. 00:50:02.433 --> 00:52:19.684 With one another, we have to ask, how is what you're making--is what you are making, doing what you wanted to do in the world? And how do you adjust or work harder even? And so I have enjoyed my conversations with him as a model for thinking about my art practice. He has worked in an art collective and did so very thoughtfully with the Border Art Collective. That experience has been really important to how he thinks about the arts. And it has validated many of us in the department in our own work that is collaborative. Oftentimes when you go to different areas of the arts, perhaps the single master artist is celebrated. And we are, many of us in this department say, I'm thinking about the Cognate Collective, which is Misael Diaz's Collective. Professor Misael Diaz with, lecturer Amy Sanchez, who's also on campus. They create work together and sometimes they teach together. And that kind of collaborative making and thinking is pretty formative. It can generate something bigger than the individual's vision. And so David has supported that. I would also say that colleagues in the--and I should say too, that, Misael as a new colleague during the pandemic--I think just before the pandemic he joined our department--has also carried on that tradition of working within a collective, in a really exciting way. 00:52:19.684 --> 00:52:37.164 So thinking just in practice, how do you like forge relationships with other departments? Like how do you network as a faculty. If other people you know, on campus wanted to create an interdisciplinary project? 00:52:37.164 --> 00:53:14.000 I think it sometimes it's about asking a question that's interesting across disciplines. So you Judit Hersko has done so. She started working with--she's an art professor here who worked with she physics professors. And the physics professors, I always think of them as the other artists because they're asking these big questions that maybe are unanswerable and maybe it's the quest that becomes very engaging. As opposed to always having the practical answer. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.545 Yep. 00:53:18.545 --> 00:53:50.000 But I have found that the scientists across campus are very open to collaboration, and that's so cool. We have some new scientists who are in the microbiology and biological sciences, like Dr. Carlos Luna Lopez and Dr. Erika Díaz-Almeyda, among many others who are just kind of intrepid explorers. And so they're looking at the world-- 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.125 Yeah. 00:53:52.125 --> 00:54:16.000 --through their own interdisciplinary lens already. So to tap into similar questions, to ask questions together from different angles, then just those initial discussions of questioning builds a framework for questioning together, and ideally bringing in students and having something bigger happen because you have input and expertise from different areas. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:24.994 Okay. Well, thank you for letting me interview you today. Is there anything else you'd like to share? 00:54:24.994 --> 00:56:15.000 Yeah. Yes, I would say that the--that trajectory of art and science, there are other avenues that happen and it's, there aren't only--there isn't only one method for collaborating. And I think another, so Judit Hersko has done that. Kristine Diekman, who also retired, she did that. I mentioned that Deborah Small was a collaborator across botany and indigenous practices and photography. So we--I think there's all of these different ways of thinking and working together. And that--I think if I had one, just to tie this whole long statement back to our very, your very first question about what brought me to CSUSM and that I had recalled, it was really the interdisciplinarity of the school. That is what persists. That ability to work across disciplines. I really hope, I think it's been the hope of all faculty who work here because it allows for a lot of freedom. When you are not, I wanna--maybe shackled is too strong a word--but siloed also another strong word, but when you don't have those restrictions, there are many more possibilities. So I really hope that our students feel that we have the--and that the community feels that. We have a lot of majors that are designed for cross-disciplinary explorations. So we have--the new Data Science major takes an art class-- 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Oh wow. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:28.000 --the environmental studies, the environmental studies students, those majors can take several different art classes that focus on art and science. The liberal studies students who are going to be the future educators-- 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.000 Yeah. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:41.000 --do get a grounding in the arts, which is so important for K-12 teaching. So I just, I'm excited to be in a place where exploration is key. 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:53.775 Very cool. Well, it was wonderful talking to you today. I appreciate our time together and thank you for contributing to the oral history project. 00:56:53.775 --> 00:57:02.000 Thank you. I hope it's an all right contribution. Thanks for having me. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-079 Subject The topic of the resource Art and artificial intelligence Art and science Border Art Collective California State University San Marcos -- Faculty California State University San Marcos. Biology California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Environmentalism in art Interdisciplinary approach in education Mars Rover Project Physarum polycephalum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy HG Solomon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Frazier Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy HG Solomon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tiffaney Boyd OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Boyd, Tiffaney. Interview, April 15th, 2021. SC027-11 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM Instructionally Related Activities funding csusm Tiffaney Boyd Sierra Jenkins moving image BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/abdeb6b5993217c41d7d8f3dc1554cff.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood Boyd discusses being born and raised in California's Inland Empire including her education. Moreno Valley ; Inland Empire ; economic divestment ; education 0 167 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Boyd reflects on a lack of knowledge of Black history until college. Learning about Blackness related to how Black people are treated in the United States. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Hemet ; police harrassment 0 293 Developing an understanding of Blackness Boyd speaks about the racial and ethnic diversity of her high school and her shock at the small population of Black students at California State University San Marcos. Blackness for her is about pride and the knowledge of the struggles that Black people have experienced. racial diversity ; infrastructure ; Black pride ; struggle ; sociology ; criminology ; inequality ; systemic racism 0 546 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Boyd discusses her awareness of Black activism especially with Trayvon Martin's death. She believes Black people are trying and succeeding but it is much harder for them to do so. She also talks about the Natural Hair Show on campus. protest ; natural hair movement ; Trayvon Martin 0 827 Role in the creation of the Black Student Center Boyd talks about her roles in student government that allowed her to be involved in initial discussions in the development of the Black Student Center. Racism at universities across the nation impacted her concern for resources available for Black students at California State University San Marcos. At a campus open forum with the President, students brought up several issues impacting Black students including the need for a Black Student Center. Latinx Center ; racism ; U-Hour ; open forum 0 1161 Previous efforts to establish the BSC and initial opposition Boyd discusses initial lack of support of the idea of a Black Student Center by Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI) staff. She was met with a lot of resistance by a traditionally white, male ASI elected positions. There were several Black students who were willing to be vocal about their experiences and lack of support. food pantry ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; student success ; women of color 0 1509 Student governance meeting and discussion / vote on the resolution for the creation of the Black Student Center Boyd talks about her work in getting the resolution for the creation of the Black Student Center passed. There were challenges to this proposal including a student leader who claimed that slavery did not exist. Ultimately, his comment helped to propel a positive vote forward. public comment ; resolution ; vote ; slavery ; celebration 0 1809 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Boyd speaks to the work that came next after the resolution for the Black Student Center passed. A task force was appointed to study the issue and propose details about the Center. Other diverse student groups stood aside Black students to support the development of the Center. task force ; Jamaéla Johnso ; Louis Adamsel ; Dilcie Perez ; Fredi Avalos ; Kai Guzman ; Sharon Elise 0 2028 The Black Student Center Grand Opening Boyd discusses her graduation and what went on after that time. The Black Student Center opened in the University Student Union. It was good for her to come back to the opening of the Center and reflect on the work she started. diversity office ; graduation ; student union ; advocacy ; coalition building 0 2363 Early focus of the BSC’s initiatives, programming, events Boyd speaks to the early plans for the Black Student Center to have programs focusing on Black women and amenities needed by Black students. Black women ; women of color ; safe haven ; cultural competence 0 2496 Early events and programs Boyd says she has not been able to reap the benefits of the Black Student Center since she graduated soon after the planning stages. 0 2562 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Boyd Boyd reflects on how her experience with the Black Student Center was formative for her career in policy and government affairs. Boyd was a legislative aide for Shirley Weber, who was a key proponent of establishing ethnic studies in California schools. Shirley Weber ; ethnic studies ; legislation ; advocacy ; policy work ; change 0 Oral history Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Thursday, April 15th, 2021, at 3:04 PM. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Tiffany Boyd for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library, Special Collections. Tiffany, thank you for being here with me today. TIFFANEY BOYD: Thank you. JENKINS: All right, so I'm going to just jump right in with the questions. And the first one I have for you is, start out with where you were born and where did you grow up? BOYD: Sure. I was born in Moreno Valley, California. And I grew up in San Jacinto, well Hemet/San Jacinto area, which is Inland Empire, California. I don't know if you wanted me to go more, but I grew up there. JENKINS: Yeah. How was it growing up in that area? BOYD: Sure. So, 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 so that area is kind of economically, uninvested in or divested in, right. I grew up in some apartment complexes there, and you know, a lot of crime, a lot of poverty to say the least, surrounds, and it was within Hemet California just because it is not close to big business or anything. It's 30 minutes out to the freeway. My high school was next to a dairy farm. And so the education system, I went to a high school that was brand new. We were the first freshmen, first graduating class out there and you could tell that. I didn't have to write essays in high school at all. I had a 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 substitute teacher for three years. It was just, substitute teacher after year after year for my English class, in which I didn't have to write and really the students were able to kind of run the show for three years because the same teacher was assigned, but she was out. And so I think just going to that high school realized how much education was not, you know, like factored or very like highly focused on at my school. JENKINS: Oh, wow. That’s, That’s crazy. But that kind of goes into my next question of, what were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience, whether it be through education or life, family? BOYD: Sure. You know, I think within my family, it was always emphasized to go to school, to go to college eventually. But as far as Black history specifically, 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 it wasn't much, taught in my school. It wasn't until much later into college and electives that I was really able to learn about Black history above and beyond MLK day or some type of form of Black History Month, but not really getting into the, I guess, the depths of our history and all of the fighters that were, you know, had to fight against oppression and, applied against the systems that continue to not invest in Black economics and Black justice. And so I think growing up with my parents, and in Hemet that is, was originally a retirement city for older folks, older white folks, and was a city that Black people weren't welcomed in and my dad was harassed by the police in Hemet, right, got like 21 tickets in one year, from just like 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 walking, driving, biking, no matter what, just like: what are you doing here, never seen you before in this area? And so I think, watching my dad and his interaction with the criminal justice system younger kind of taught me, I think, a lot about Black history in some ways, or like the historic ways that in which Black people are treated in this country. And so, we're seeing a lot of that today as far as folks being harassed doing normal things as Black people, but still not being seen as a whole person or someone worth the dignity and right to live. JENKINS: How did you come to your own understanding of Blackness? BOYD: I don't know. I don't even know what that means. I mean, I don't even know. I think for me coming to college, I went to a high school that had, 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 you know, Black and Brown and it was a very diverse high school. Not as far as diverse teachers, but the students were diverse. Coming to San Marcos where we were less than 3% of the population at the campus was something that was new for me. And it did throw me a little bit off that there wasn't, you could be the only Black person in campus or in your class often. I don't think I had one Black professor during my time at San Marcos and so that was also kind of just different, and made hyper aware of my, that I was Black, that I'm different. And I think that realizing that we didn't have a like organization like sororities fraternities at the time, we didn't have like Black focused clubs. There was a BSU (Black Student Union), 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 but at that time it wasn't active. And so there was a very desired need just to be with people of likeness that kind of understood the Black experience, whatever that kind of means. But for me, Blackness just means pride or an understanding that there are struggles that we go through or that we've been through that other ethnicities and races haven't necessarily had that struggle. JENKINS: Okay. And, you mentioned that you came, like you learned more about your, about Black history and the Black experience in college was that through classes and I guess since you didn't use to have like the BSU and Black sororities, did it come through the Black Student Center later? BOYD: So I didn't come through the Black Student Center later because we didn't, I didn't get to benefit from the Black Student Center at all. I think through sociology classes 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 and through criminology courses and communications courses. One course which is kind of almost the opposite, but yet it still points to it is The Communication of Whiteness, is a class taught by Jim Mamoon that kind of just put into perspective. I think a lot of times we do focus on the experience of Black people and how we've gotten, come to be, but it's like, how do we continue to perpetuate whiteness and how that affects the power structures that we face today? And so I think being able to talk about inequality and race in my sociology classes really put into perspective of how everything isn't necessarily so, I guess happenstance, but that systems are perpetuated and created and policies are perpetuated and created that allow the experience that I have in which I'm going to a school 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 that is underfunded or that, I wasn't, you know, had access to AP courses or anything that it's perpetuated, that structural racism kind of works in that way. And so I think that that's how I was able to form more of a strong identity that, you know, we don't have a pipeline program at our, on our campus. That we’re not recognized as Black students, that our struggles are different than a traditional student or how higher education was originally formed. And so I think that, in that I wanted to create a space where, and dialogue and room for us to kind of talk about the experience of being at San Marcos and not necessarily being seen. JENKINS: That's awesome. That kind of goes back what you're talking about, with like what's going on today and like that kind of thing. So my next question is how has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 movement, feminism, the natural hair movement and Black Lives Matter affected you? BOYD: Yeah, I would say it was affecting me a lot. So the first, the first iteration of some way, like I was already kind of aware, but I think it was like a appointment, like exclamation mark when Trayvon Martin died or was a murdered, assassin, killed. And I was in a sociology class and we were talking about Hurricane Katrina and just how that, how there wasn't help from the federal government to this area. And then of course, we're like studying this. And then at the same time, Trayvon Martin is killed through, with Skittles in his hand. And so that year, I want to say it was either, I want to say 2013 or 2014, we went and I had my parents come to a protest march in LA. 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 And I think that in that you kind of just continue to be aware. And then you hear about Freddy (Gray) and you hear about Eric Garner and all of these folks. And so I think that that has really been something that has stayed with me. We did during our time, and you'll hear from other students about the natural hair show that we had at our campus. And, and you realize that folks are either afraid or ashamed of their hair texture as it is. And so I think that awareness of like what Black Lives Matter and what civil rights did and how they've pushed forward an agenda to say: hey, we are just as human, we’re as dignified as anybody else, and we deserve those same rights and the same ability to flourish and have jobs. And you just see the historical ways in which, again and again, Black people are trying and are succeeding. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 But they are, it's much harder for us to do so. JENKINS: Can you tell me about more about the natural hair show that you mentioned? I've actually never heard of, haven't heard of that yet. BOYD: Yeah. So, on our campus as, so when I was a freshman on the campus we didn't have, our BSU (Black Student Union) was not strong. We didn't have a core group of folks that were involved. We didn't have faculty that were invested either. And so a few students started that mantel my year and by the third year, BSU, like my third year of college, we had put on a natural hair show in which, when we first began as well we didn't have a (university) student union, which now we do have a student union in which people are able to do gather and be a center hub of the campus. And so that first year that it opened, 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 we had this big hair show, Black natural hair show in which students volunteered to model their hair as it is, afros and curls and braids, and was just a celebration, had folks who were hairstylists and had their own businesses come and promote their businesses. And then had students able to walk the catwalk in a way, and then have some uplifting powering music and just a way to come together and celebrate to say, this is our hair texture and this is something to be celebrated that everybody is different, and beautiful in and of their own right. JENKINS: That sounds amazing. Did you guys only have it that year? Is it something that's reoccurred since then? BOYD: Yeah, so it's reoccurred since then, each year. I'm not quite sure, I'm about a few years removed. But I do know that 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Akilah Green, who was the, she had recently that time had, did the big chop. And she was impetus, or she was the go starter for this event. And I know that there's been a few times where she's been called back to participate in the natural hair show that she began. So I want to say that it's at least like the sixth year, if it's still continuing either virtually or not, I'm pretty sure that there have been students that kind of continued it on. But yeah, it's been like an annual thing and it's really a beautiful event. JENKINS: That's so cool. I'm going to definitely check that out. What is your relationship to the BSC (Black Student Center)? Why did you get involved? BOYD: Sure. So, my, in my senior year, my fifth year, I was present... Well, I guess it to go back, in 2014, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 I want to say, I was vice president in the... Actually, sorry, I'll go back even more. I was a representative. I was like a rep, a rep for the College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral, and Social Sciences (in Associated Students Incorporated, student government). And that year they were talking about the creation of a Latino Latina center (Latin /x Center) at our campus, and we were able to vote, and it was a big thing. We've had, only had the Cross-Cultural Center and we had the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) at the campus, and the Latinos, or Latinx population wanted a center. And so it was a big, big conversation. And in the end it had, you know, triumphed and we were, it had passed for the creation of Latino Latina center. You fast forward two years later, and I was a president at the time (of Associated Students Incorporated and there was a huge 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 demonstration. There had been, there's always, or I won't say that there's always, but campuses continue to negotiate diversity and inclusion at their campuses is an ongoing theme across campuses. Not only in California, but across the nation. And at that time, Missouri, which they call a Mizzou University (University of Missouri at Columbia) where it was going through something where racism had occurred on campus toward Black students, but athletes had spoke out about the injustice that was faced on that campus and the president was unresponsive. And so the students had went on protest at Missouri, the student athletes, which is a huge, big deal because at that campus, they had football and that's a big revenue, that the campus was losing by them not performing or not, you know, doing the game. 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 And so you see a lot of other things were happening at that time. And I don't quite remember all of the activities, but something had just happened I want to say at San Jose State University, something had happened at a different university. And the way in which the university treats Black students, welcomes Black students, and invests in Black students was like up in question, across all campuses. And so, as you know, as the student body president at the time, I also was concerned about Black students on our campus and what resources, or lack of thereof, resources for black students was available. At our campus, we do have what's called U Hour, which, from 12 to one (p.m.) on Tuesdays and Thursdays, students for the most part don't have classes. There's not classes resuming at that time. And so it allows for campus life to, for events or for clubs to meet you at that U Hour, University Hour. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And so Black, so for BSU (Black Student Union) on Thursdays, of every other Thursday, I want to say, BSU was able to like gather and meet. And if you're able, if you're on campus on a Thursday and on a, and don't have classes and you're able to participate in BSU. But if you didn't, if you either were a commuter student, which a lot of students are, and maybe your classes are Monday and Wednesdays, or if you had a job that you had to go to, or something you're unable to really participate in the BSU because it's like only this time on the hour. So, and for the most part, you don't even see these Black students, you're not (sneezes) excuse me, running into them on campus because we're so spread out. And so when one day, like we were, the university, the campus university was having a, what is it called? An open forum, a diversity open forum 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 about just the campus itself. It wasn't really even a diversity forum. It was just an open forum of the president (Karen Haynes) talking about the state of the campus and some initiatives that were going forward and students had rose up that day and said, hey, what about Black students? What are you doing about Black students on our campus? We're feeling isolated. We aren't having retention rates. We don't have professors and are feeling unsupported. And so when the campus president heard about it, she said, please address a letter to me, I, this is the first time that I'm hearing about this issue. And so that's kind of where I got involved, as the student government lens is that I also had put forth a resolution in support of a Black Student Center, or a resource center to be a hub where Black students can come, no matter the time or the date of, of the hour. Right. But that there would be somebody dedicated 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 to the inclusion of Black students where you can get resources of paper or have dialogues that are hyper specific and culturally competent around this area or this issue. JENKINS: What was the initial response when you put that proposal in? BOYD: Sure. It was, it was complicated, I guess (laughs) you could say. So, student government at San Marcos is kind of its own institution, its own little bubble. Right. And I had been involved since a representative so by the time my, I was elected for president, it was my third year being involved in student government and the faculty who are, or not faculty, but the staff who are ever-present for us, and students of course come in 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 and wash out. They weren't very supportive of me or my executive board. So we were the first, all-women of color executive board. There's three executives, there's the president, the vice president of student affairs and the vice president of operations, that are all elected and get to sit on the executive committee. And so prior to even this effort, which didn't start until October of the year, and you are elected in, I want to say like April or March of that year, so 2015 March, April is when I'm elected into the presidency. You fast forward to August. And we're trying to talk about what initiatives we have for the year. And I was already thinking, although I didn’t express it, that I 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 wanted to look into the issue of a Black Student Center. And besides that was like a food pantry. And I wanted to look into social media. It's weird that social media is, you know, everywhere. It's like normal, but at the time we didn't have social media presence as, as the student government. And so I wanted to establish us, get a Snapchat, get us an Instagram at the time. And so, we're talking about social media, we're talking about events, we're talking about how can student government be more accessible and visible to the students? Because a lot of times we are a great resource and yet students either aren't taking advantage of the resource or don't really know or understand. And so figuring out ways to do that and be connected to the university more. And we were told that we're difficult women, that we should, that, you know, he wished as the executive director that he had, the SAE board back. And SAE stands for 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 Sigma Alpha Epsilon. And they are a like on our campus at least historically white fraternity of males, and that is the brand of student government. At the time was that mostly it's like fraternity guys who get their own friends to vote for them. And that they weren't inclusive of the campus, they weren't representative of the campus. And you know, ASI kind of just did their own thing over there. So I was trying to bridge that gap and was met with a lot of resistance, from the beginning. And so when the Black Student Center came around and was another thing that was seen as unwelcome, it's all I can say. It's like not understood why we need an additional center when we have the Cross-Cultural Center. Two years ago we just had the Latino center. This is kind of just, you know, doing too much. There's not that many of you, why do you need a whole center, right? 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 The argument for the Latino Latin /x Center was that: we're half the population of this campus, or like a significant amount. We’re a Hispanic Serving Institution, at least deemed that through federal government, through the federal side and so it's like we should be serving our students. And so on the opposite side, it's like, we're a small population, but it's necessary in order for the retention and rate of student success for this to be here. And so I would just say that that's kind of how it was. The Black Student Union at the time had some great Black students who were vocal, who were willing to put their story on the line about the isolation that they feel, about the microaggressions that are experienced, and the lack of support, but they weren't organized in a way to understand how, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 how to speak with the president, how to talk to the vice president, the vice, the Dean of Students, Student Affairs. And so I think that I was able to bridge that understanding of working with the administration to forward our goals, because there are, there were faculty who were supportive of this, that this initiative and idea, and were helping to craft the resolution language and trying to whip up the votes for other students to also buy-in. As the, as a woman of color and executive board, executive board of color, it was great to have that camaraderie within our executive board, but of course the board is much larger than just us (officers) and it gets much more diverse than folks of color. So we knew that it was an uphill battle because there were, I don't remember at the time how many representatives, but of course you got to get, you know, half plus 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 one. JENKINS: So it sounds like there was a lot of pushback. So how was it when they approved the Black Student Center? What was that like? BOYD: Sure. So it was, it was a huge meeting. So the first, so basically the students, you know, spoke out. The president (Karen Haynes) said that she would look into the issue. But I believe that there was a caveat about going through student government or what does the student voice have to be, say, since we represent. So then I was like: my baton to start, my work. So I started my work as well. Fast forward to February of 2016. The executive director (of Associated Students Incorporated) that I had mentioned before is out on leave. He's no longer working for the student government. We have a new person who just started in February, who is a retired annuitant from San Diego State University, and we're at this huge meeting. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 If you know anything about student government, we don't have a lot of people at our meetings. People are not interested. (laughs) And our meetings, we have them on Fridays, afternoon and our campus is a commuter campus and nobody's on campus on Friday. On that day we moved our meeting from our small room that we had into a much larger room in the USU in the (University) Student Union to accommodate for the amount of folks. Public comment. Was a lot of public comment was happening. There was concerns about some of the language that was in the resolution, the resolution language, and there was process questions about the Student Advocacy Committee and their recommendation to the board. It was like, just a lot of, just a lot. And so you have students that are speaking out to say, we want this, this item to pass and there was other, you know, environmental stuff. And I think even the food pantry (Cougar Pantry) was like that day as well. So just like a lot of 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 agenda items. And so during that time, we had a student who represented the College of Business and Administration, and he was kind of adamantly against this Black Student Center. And so during the open discussion around the bill in which people can make amendments to the language of the resolution if they want or anything, he was basically saying that slavery didn't exist. So, slavery was a part of the resolution for good or for bad. It started at, and any resolution kind of goes big and it goes narrow down to where, whereas this is, for these reasons this. And so he was like, slavery doesn’t exist, that the industrial revolution was the reason why we are a great country 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 that we are. And so, you know, it of course is a touchy subject to say the least. And so students were upset and outraged that he made the comment and all of this stuff. But in the end, I think that that comment actually helped propel more than back up for students who were still on the fence, of student government representatives that were on the fence. We didn't know if we had enough votes for the resolution at the time, but I wanted to at least put the issue up. There had been a lot of turmoil within the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) and just with the students. And so I just wanted to say, okay, it's on the floor, let's have a full discussion about what you'd like to see what you want, than for us to continue to have these like sidebar conversations. And so we went up for a vote and in the end, it passed. I think 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 that student, that represented (College of) Business was the only student who voted against the bill, or the resolution. And so, I mean, it was celebratory, right? It's exciting because, we didn't know what was going to happen and to, to get so far, that initiative had started basically in October when they spoke out to the president. And so to have that, to have that in February, which is a kind of quick deadline, but like not that quick, was great. And it was because students, and myself, and other people were prepared to know how to do our job, with or without a staff helping us to craft language or go through the order. JENKINS: That's amazing. It sounds like you put a lot of work into doing this. So we talked about that. So you were definitely a leader on this project. Was there anybody 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 else who you saw as like a great contributor to the Black Student Center and including any unsung heroes that we may not know about? BOYD: Sure. So, you know, after, after the resolution was passed that, you know, it doesn't stop there, right. There has to be a flushing out of what, what is the Center going to do? We have established that there's a problem, we've established that we're willing as student voice to put our, our stamp of approval to say that, deem this statewide, or a campus-wide problem. And then so there was a lot, there was then, the president then appointed a task force to study the issue and to come up with a proposal of what the student, what the Black resource name would be, where it would be hosted, what services would it 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 have, and all of that good stuff. And so, as ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), I was able to be the representative there. And then as part of the BSU (Black Student Union), Jamaéla Johnson, who was actually the Vice President of Student Affairs (in ASI) at the time, but was also a really big BSU - I don't know what her office title was in the BSU. But she was a part of BSU. One thing that for me, I wasn't able to be like as an active member. And I think because of the work that I had, aside from campus that Thursday hour was constantly taken away from me or used in some way. But I always tried to stay in contact with whoever the president was and try to do whatever, you know, cross collaborations. I was president of like some other orgs and so tried to like just align efforts, but I wasn't like super involved. So 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 as BSU representative, Jamaéla Johnson was there and we were able to really speak at the table with the administrators of Student Affairs and, I forget everybody who was at the table, but everybody who the president had assigned to this task force to really discuss it. Louis Adamsel, which was, he was really integral and helpful during this process. Brandy Williams was one of the students. Danii Thornton and, I forget her sister's name (Darneisha Thornton). They both started with a D but the Thorton twins were really helpful in getting the initiative and the voice out, and Dilcie Perez who at the time was the Dean of Students was really helpful, too. And there was a lot of faculty who were, Sharon Elise 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 was great. Freddy Avalos, another professor that was great during it. Karen Guzman (now Kai Guzman). The Latino students who, MEChA is the organization that had passed the Latino center resolution. And they came in support and stood alongside Black students as, as we were advancing the idea of a Black Student Center, they were there as well to help, advocate and support and say that this is just as important. JENKINS: I love that it was such a community effort. That's really amazing for the Center. What, were you at the BSC’s grand opening? BOYD: Yes, I Was there. So – JENKINS: Tell me about it. BOYD: So what? JENKINS: Tell me about it. BOYD: Oh yeah, sure. So 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during that issue, so I think that, you know, Mizzou and everything that their president had been fired from the campus, he had actually left their campus, and this was the same time, allowed the president (Karen Haynes) to be like more listening to students. You don't want to be the president who's not listening to students when you're seeing the consequences of that in firing on other campuses, right? And then in February during the same time that, you know, we're pushing in advancing and it's Black History Month, our diversity officer was also let go. Nobody knew why our diversity officer was let go in February but they were also let go. And so that helped kind of propel as well, this angst around diversity. Other students were kind of upset that our diversity officer’s gone one day and he was a really good champion for these issues, right. We're talking about, 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 you know institutionalizing some of it. And of course he's only one man. So yes, having a center with somebody else for programming or anything as well, it was important. And so I also just wanted to give that context, just to say that was also like part of the storm that helped create the Center, the birth of the Center. And so the diversity office was also like an unsung hero within that, that also kept students sane and helpful. But so that was that year and we graduated many other students who were a part of it ; Jamaéla Johnson, myself had both graduated and moved on in our lives. But excitingly enough, there was space in the (University Student) Union that they were able to retrofit. When we left, we talked about what resources we thought would be important for the (Black) Student Center, and where we identified some places. But it wasn't anything set in stone in that the president (Karen Haynes) got to identify and 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 have the last word on that. And so, fast forward a year and the food pantry (Cougar Pantry) that I had already, that had passed uncontroversially. Which was good, but was controversial before, and this had passed. And so when we got invited back to campus to say that it's actually opening, that there's been identified place in the (University Student) Union, it was, it was much exciting. I was in, I want to say that I had already relocated to Sacramento by this time, which is Northern California. And so I flew back down, and they were just nice enough to give, I guess, space for myself, Akilah Green, who was the diversity and inclusion, I want to say, student representative on the student government. And she had been doing a lot of BSU (Black Student Union) work as well. And Jamaéla Johnson, 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 all three of us were able to come back to campus to see the grand opening, to speak a little bit about our experience and our joy that, you know, to see it to come to life. And it was great because, again, the (University Student) Union was fairly new as we were exiting campus and so to see just how much campus life had grown and how much the Union had became a hub for students to converse. And to know that the Black Student Center was a part of that life, that it wasn't in a corner back by Markstein (Hall), which is where our meetings used to be, but that it was at the corner hub with all of the other centers there, was great to see that there was an identified place, that there was Black faces, like in the same room, and that there was artwork that was reflective and that there was a whole programming and director 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 at the time. And to see it kind of come 360 was great because you always want to hopefully leave something better than what you found it, leave some type of legacy. And I really did feel that if we weren't in the position, if it was some other folks in student government, then I think that they might not have passed the resolution, or it would have been something that was dragged on and maybe unfinished. And I think that the effectiveness of coalition building, of advocacy, of people having different levels of involvement, from either protesting down or from having allies at the Dean of Students, really made it really effective, as well as a national climate that's saying: hey, like, we have to keep paying attention to this, that we can't just let it be some one-off thing, but that, this is something that has been historical since when students weren't even Black students, weren't allowed to be on campuses. Since we built our own Black campuses, right? To see this happen and 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 acknowledged was a really great moment for I think everybody— JENKINS: You've mentioned a lot about like, the work you guys put in to see the Center come to life. Can you tell me more about the early focus of BSCs initiatives, programming events and like the focus of the Center itself? BOYD: Sure. So for us, we thought it was important that there was programming specifically for like uplifting and focusing on Black students and dialogue, Black women. We had like a Gender Equity Center, but a lot of times women of color can fall through the cracks of women’s initiatives. And so it was really important that there was programming, that there was printing so that students are able to print for free at the campus center, that there would be like a refrigerator 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 for students to have their have meals refrigerated there, and be a place where people can frequently just come and like, hang out so that if you're in between classes that you can learn or meet other students of Black descent, hopefully, and of course anybody is welcome to come in and learn something. But I think that that was most important that the significance of having both resources there, but also just having a communal space in which folks know that it is a safe place to be where hopefully the microaggressions or the frustrations of campus that you might go through could be a place where, like a safe haven for you to kind of come touch base and then be able to flourish within the campus later. And I think that that was like a part of the focus ; have some concrete resources, have one person that's dedicated to programming there, and 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 having culturally competent program and then have just like the physical space of saying like, this is a Black Student Center for you built by you, hopefully hiring students, as well, to shape it, form it, was what we had expected and hoped. JENKINS: In your opinion, have they succeeded and, what has been your favorite event that they've had or program? BOYD: Yeah. You know, it's unfortunate cause I don't really get to reap the benefits or the fruits of the labor. And I know from a distance about what's happening maybe on campus or what's happening with the Black Student Center. But I haven't been super involved since I kind of just like planted the seed. 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 And so I don't know what events that they have done that were really successful or really impactful in the years that I left. JENKINS: I'm sorry to hear that. (laughs) This question, I guess you would be able to answer: what has been the impact of the BSU (BSC, Black Student Center) or, you know, petitioning for the BSU on your, on you personally? BOYD: Can you repeat the question? JENKINS: What has been the impact of the BSU (BSC) since you haven't been able to like experience it? What has been the impact of being like a leader, a leading advocate for the BSU (BSC) on you personally? BOYD: Yeah, I mean, I think it's formative of my whole trajectory of what I do now, to be honest. I currently, well, I guess what I was just doing, but it kind of falls into, I just got a new job. But I'm doing policy and government affairs 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 right now, but I've been doing, I was a legislative aide for four years. And it was during San Marcos at a luncheon, a diversity and inclusion luncheon that Assembly Member Shirley Weber, who represents the 79th district in San Diego, came to our campus to speak around diversity, around change, around all things diversity. And so she spoke there and she talked about her legislation that she was working on. And I said: I want to work for her one day, right? And it's because she advances. She's a Africana Studies Professor, we didn't have Ethnic Studies on our campus at the time. We only had, they were starting a minor, an Ethnic Studies minor. And it was a dabble of if you took, you know, this sociology class or if you took this communications class and you could like kind of work it into being an Ethnic Studies minor. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 And just working towards issues that matter on our campus and saying, you know what? We don't have this, we should have this, we need this. It's something that could have improved the way that I had experienced the campus. It was great because I now apply that to the policies in which I advanced, and the legislature. And I ended up working for Assembly Member Weber, during my time. And so we were able to via my inexperience, it's almost like what I don't have or what I don't see is what I want to advocate for the most ; and so this past year in 2020, we established a graduation requirement, and a requirement for all CSU (California State University) campuses to have ethnic studies on their campus and to have a graduation requirement for all CSU students to at least take one 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 ethnic studies course before they graduate. Within the four historically, recognized ethnic studies demographics, which is Native American, Chicano, Latino, Asian, API, and then an Africana or African studies. And so that's a, it's a huge, it was three years. It wasn't just like one and done, but it was impactful for my story, right. So because I advocated for the Black Student Center and all of these things and was a part of seeing how coalition building advocacy, how having folks in power works is it's, I apply that every day to like legislation as I'm trying to either advocate for ethnic studies or advocate for exonerated folks to have access to housing or, pregnant and, pregnant and parenting pupils in K through 12 and their access to education and not being pushed out. I'm asking folks: hey, like, please, it's unfortunate, but 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 please tell your story to help paint a picture for folks so that they can understand what it is on the ground level. And then we're talking with legislators who have the ability and finance and budget to also say like, you know what we need to invest in this, this costs this much, but this is why this is so important. And so I think that has been super impactful to how I look at policy change, how I look at change in general, and the experiences that I'm having. It's like, it's not so again, so happenstance, right? It's like people aren't in the room where people, we haven't had the right people or the right time and the national climate to take action. We, in Sacramento, a student – person – had, Stefan Clark was shot, right. In Sacramento that same year that I'm out here my first year. And he, his cell phone is mistaken as a gun. 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 That year is when we like, ran a use of force bill, right. To say that officers should shoot when it's necessary, not when they're just scared. And it's the same kind of process of getting folks on the ground, getting folks here and there, and putting in positions and then raising it, on a national level, to have that dialogue and the outrage and stuff. And then we can start ushering in more change. And it's unfortunate that that's kind of, it takes so much from so many different angles, but that's almost how it always is in order to best change. And it's just like, are you willing to continue to raise the issue again and again? JENKINS: Your work is very inspiring. It's so amazing that you also got to work with somebody you like, nope, I'm going to work with her. Like, that's really amazing. BOYD: Absolutely. JENKINS: 00:48:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 So that's actually all I have for you because the rest of the questions are mainly like if you were at the BSC, experiencing it, that kind of thing. But my last question is, are there any questions that I should have asked that I have not? BOYD d: You know, I don't think so. I can't think of any question that you didn't or that I didn't touch upon it. I would just, yeah, I don't think so. JENKINS: Okay. So, thank you so much for participating and the Black Student Center Oral History Project. I, we all appreciate it so much and we, thanks. Thanks for being here. I'm gonna’ stop recording now. BOYD: Okay. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; 30&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boyd, Tiffaney. Interview April 15th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos -- Students Activism, Student Black experience in America Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer, Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elmer Royce Williams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;Korean War;Naval aviator;Dogfight OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 SC027-074 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Korean War ; Naval aviator ; Dogfight Elmer Royce Williams Jason Beyer, Marilyn Huerta, Adel Bautista Moving image WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d6799d074d31395fe8b6205edd027f3f.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 50 Military Background Williams lists his years of service, branches of service, the highest rank he attained, and the wars he participated in. Navy ; Army ; Navy Captain ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War 0 76 Childhood Williams describes growing up in rural South Dakota, where he lived on a farm and worked in a grocery store. Wilmar, South Dakota ; rural ; farm ; grocery store ; World War I 0 136 Military Enlistment Williams describes his decision to enlist in the Army. He was always fond of aviation, and the military provided the best training. enlistment ; Army ; aviation 0 221 Military Training Williams reflects on his military training. Includes his worst experience, his first assignment after basic training, his views on instructors, his switch from the Army to the Navy, and his promotions. training ; bootcamp ; promotion ; instructor ; Army ; Navy 0 600 Adaptation to Military Lifestyle Williams describes the highs and lows of adapting to military service and mentions the wartime conflicts he was part of. World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; family ; military lifestyle ; stateside service ; wartime service 0 751 The Korean War and the Dogfight Williams tells his remarkable story about surviving a solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Includes contextual details about the Korean War as well as descriptions of the political aftermath. Williams describes how some historians have written about the event. dogfight ; Korean War ; Soviet Union ; combat ; Washington ; Eisenhower ; Admiral Briscoe ; history 0 2141 Keeping Military Secrets Williams describes how difficult it was to keep his experiences secret in order to preserve national security. He recalls seeing reports on military events that he knew to be inaccurate or untrue. secrets ; military ; history ; censorship ; lies 0 2180 Interactions With Local Cultures During Wartime Service Although most of his service was in aircraft, Williams describes a war-torn Seoul. Shares stories of how Korean political and military leaders continue to honor him with awards for his service. Korea ; Medal of Honor ; Seoul ; Eisenhower ; culture 0 2282 Comradery and Recreation During Service Williams describes the strong bonds he built with members of his squadron. He also describes recreational activities, including volleyball and reading. comradery ; friendship ; squadron ; recreation ; volleyball ; reading ; religion ; prayer 0 2458 Injury, End of Service, and Return Home Williams experienced a plane crash in San Diego. He recalls how he dealt with the injuries that would eventually lead him to retire from the navy. retirement ; injury ; plane crash ; hospital ; San Diego ; surgery 0 2774 Return to Civilian Life After leaving the service, Williams gets his master’s degree and works in business. He describes his experience with the GI Bill, working in law, joining veterans' organizations, and keeping friendships. college ; business ; GI Bill ; law ; veterans’ organizations ; friendship 0 2949 Life Lessons from Military Service Williams describes life lessons he gained from military service. His recent nomination for the Medal of Honor has kept him busy with speaking engagements. He is also the president of a local congregation. He encourages people to stay positive, find community, and treat their civic responsibilities seriously. Medal of Honor ; life lessons ; reflections ; congregation ; president ; community ; civic responsibilities 0 3126 Involvement in North County San Diego Community Williams describes his involvement in the North County San Diego community, particularly in the city of Escondido. He also describes some of his day-to-activities with his family. Escondido, California ; community ; family ; Ikebana ; shooting ; home building 0 3271 Reflections on the Experiences of Veterans Williams wishes more people understood that veterans are kind people who serve their nation and are an important productive part of their community. He says military service taught him that life is a team sport. He recommends having a family and says family has been important to him. veterans ; family ; nation ; military service ; community 0 Oral history Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:50.774 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Elmer Royce Williams. Today's date is Friday, November 8, 2024. The general location where this interview is being conducted is at the Williams residence in Escondido, California. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview include Marilyn Huerta ; camera operator, Adel Bautista ; Jason Beyer, the interviewer ; Elmer Royce Williams, the interviewee. And the purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name. 00:00:50.774 --> 00:00:53.435 Elmer Royce Williams. 00:00:53.435 --> 00:00:56.045 What branch of service you were in? 00:00:56.045 --> 00:01:04.474 I started in the Army for a couple years, then I went into the Navy. I served 37 years. 00:01:04.474 --> 00:01:07.204 What was the highest rank that you attained? 00:01:07.204 --> 00:01:10.394 Navy Captain O-6. 00:01:10.394 --> 00:01:13.185 What war or conflicts were you a part of? 00:01:13.185 --> 00:01:16.545 World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. 00:01:16.545 --> 00:01:23.265 That's the easiest part of this interview. Now it's time for the questions. Where were you born? 00:01:23.265 --> 00:01:29.075 Wilmot, South Dakota in 1925. 00:01:29.075 --> 00:01:33.385 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:33.385 --> 00:01:45.745 My father was in World War I. My brother was in the same wars that I was. He retired as a Marine Colonel. 00:01:45.745 --> 00:01:50.504 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:50.504 --> 00:02:00.715 Yes, uh, I was in a rural area and I worked on farms. My father was a grocer, and I worked in the store. 00:02:00.715 --> 00:02:06.734 What was it like for you working in the store and growing up on a farm? 00:02:06.734 --> 00:02:16.645 Well, I think it was the standard of the day. And, it suited me. 00:02:16.645 --> 00:02:21.995 When and why did you choose to join the military? 00:02:21.995 --> 00:02:53.555 My first airplane ride was when I was four years old. I was enthused and my dreams—well, this brought me toward aviation. And, in those days, the best organized, publicized aviation was military. And I sort of switched my dreams in that direction. 00:02:53.555 --> 00:02:56.254 Did you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:56.254 --> 00:03:01.324 I enlisted when I was 16. 00:03:01.324 --> 00:03:05.925 And which branch did you enter, and why did you choose that branch? 00:03:05.925 --> 00:03:42.064 Army. And primarily it was National Guard that was nationalized. I had two cousins in it. They deployed to North Africa. My two cousins were killed. I didn't go because of my age, I think. So I continued to serve and I trained and spent time in Camp Ripley in Little Falls, Minnesota. 00:03:42.064 --> 00:03:50.224 The earlier days of service. For your earlier days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:03:50.224 --> 00:04:15.034 Primarily infantry training. Rifle range, cross country marches. And I was trained as a drill instructor, which came in handy for the unit I was attached to. 00:04:15.034 --> 00:04:27.824 What was your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training or in school. 00:04:27.824 --> 00:05:09.653 Well, I'll say interesting. We had a cross country toward dusk and it took us through some of the lakes and ponds in Minnesota and swarmed with mosquitoes. In that it was night, we had to orient our maps with a flashlight but not be seen. So I took my poncho, put it over my head, and studied the map. Trapped about 30 some mosquitoes when I did that. And that was unpleasant. 00:05:09.653 --> 00:05:12.425 So that was probably—I would say—your worst part of the training. 00:05:12.425 --> 00:05:16.584 Yeah, that was (laughs). 00:05:16.584 --> 00:05:21.694 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:05:21.694 --> 00:05:54.653 The unit that was located at Ortonville, Minnesota. It's, uh, at the south tip of Big Stone Lake, which is 36 miles long and is a prominent part of the western border of Minnesota. It comes straight up from Iowa, and it hits Big Stone Lake and makes a jog. 00:05:54.653 --> 00:06:00.144 Do you recall your instructors while you were in school? 00:06:00.144 --> 00:06:08.795 Not by name. I'm not good at remembering names. But yes, I recall my training. 00:06:08.795 --> 00:06:11.605 Were they good instructors in your opinion? 00:06:11.605 --> 00:07:12.264 I thought so. Problem we had was we were on the rifle range with ammunition from World War I stored in Panama, which is moist and not good conditions. So we were advised that if we had a problem and it didn't fire—hang fire, we called it—to not open the breach but call the sergeant instructor. I had one that was poor performance. Pull the trigger and it fired, but the bullet landed in the grass about 10 feet in front of me. But down the line on the rifle range was a man that didn't follow instructions. And as he opened the breach, it fired and he lost an eye. 00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:25.795 Did you qualify for equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radio, weapons? And if yes, what was the training like with that equipment? 00:07:25.795 --> 00:07:43.154 Well, definitely airplane. When I switched over to the Navy, I was in the aviation cadet program. And if I completed it completely, I would be on my way flying fighter aircraft off aircraft carriers. 00:07:43.154 --> 00:07:50.754 What was the switch like for you, and how did it make you feel switching from the Army over into the Navy? 00:07:50.754 --> 00:08:09.345 It's what I wanted. I wanted to be a carrier pilot, and this offered an avenue, and I was happy about it. 00:08:09.345 --> 00:08:17.024 Did you receive any promotions, and could you tell me about them during your time in the Navy? 00:08:17.024 --> 00:09:03.595 Yes, in the Navy I had sort of a head start going through bootcamp and was a company commander. And that followed me through aviation cadet training, as well. Because I was a corporal in the Army, I had training at, uh—gave me kind of a head start—And then in a long career I got commissioned, and I moved up the ladder in normal sequencing to an O-6 position. 00:09:03.595 --> 00:09:16.315 What would you say was the biggest difference between your enlisted promotions and your officer promotions? 00:09:16.315 --> 00:10:00.965 As an officer it was more wide-ranging at where instead of being a specialist, except for flying, was broad and personnel management. But records and maintenance training—many avenues and responsibility at a higher level—to where, eventually, as command of a ship it is a rather interesting and wide-range responsibility. 00:10:00.965 --> 00:10:08.865 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:08.865 --> 00:10:11.835 Being away from my wife and family. 00:10:11.835 --> 00:10:14.335 Why do you think that was? 00:10:14.335 --> 00:10:52.565 'Cause over long periods of time, it left my wife managing three sons. All different ages, different schools. I can't imagine how she was able to maintain the driving schedule. And when I retired she said, "Okay, now you do the income tax." So she had a wide range of responsibility. And unfortunately, I would love to have been partnering in it, but I was gone so much of the time. 00:10:52.565 --> 00:10:59.125 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:59.125 --> 00:11:25.325 Friendships. Harmony. You're part of a team. You get to know and like one another. Trust. Lean on. Depend. And, um—I think all aspects of military are—you're working with teamwork. 00:11:25.325 --> 00:11:37.924 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:11:37.924 --> 00:12:08.384 Well, it was a variety of things. Often schools—even if you were just with a unit—it is mostly training in the fighter business. We would train over in the desert to fire rockets and bombs and guns and hit the target. Coordinate with the rest of the team. Prepare for combat. 00:12:08.384 --> 00:12:14.294 During your wartime service, what wartime conflicts were you a part of. 00:12:14.294 --> 00:12:31.294 World War II—I didn't actually get shot at by enemy—uh, Korea, Vietnam. I was rather heavily involved in those wars. 00:12:31.294 --> 00:12:36.365 Where and when did you serve in the Korean conflict? 00:12:36.365 --> 00:13:11.705 1952-53 on an aircraft carrier normally operating at the 38th parallel in support of ground forces and destruction of enemy logistics, trains, trucks, ox carts. But of course, air support for our fighters on the ground. Except for one novel incident that I got involved in. 00:13:11.705 --> 00:13:14.995 Do you care discussing that incident? 00:13:14.995 --> 00:29:24.605 Sure. Admiral (Joseph) Jocko Clark was Task Force 77, which was on site on the USS Missouri and was running the naval operations. That was basically the eastern half of Korea, both north and south. And the distance between targets—some of it was very important manufacturing and storage, and logistics is the heart of wars. So our job was to stifle, destroy their capability. And we couldn't get to all the targets because of distance. So Admiral Clark formed a task force of three carriers and probably twenty-some other ships, destroyers, including his battleship. And we moved north off the city of Ch'ŏngjin, which is about a hundred miles south of the Soviet Union and Vladivostok. And we operated there and could then reach all the other targets that we normally wanted to but couldn't. And, uh, I was on the first mission in the morning and we hit targets in a city called Hoeryong. It is right on the Yalu River, which is the border between the Soviet Union and North Korea. These operations stirred up the Soviets. We didn't go to their territory, which is having such—military operation that close to them got them very excited, and they launched lots of airplanes and the radio chatter became heavy and everything, you know, they were very concerned. Well, upon completion of that, I went back and landed on the aircraft carrier, and I was told to get lunch and get ready, and I was going to go off on the next combat air patrol. When the first flight, the weather was good and we were operating pretty much in clear air. In the meanwhile, a blizzard moved in and the bottom of the clouds were around 500 feet and the tops were at 12,000 feet. So we briefed. I got lunch. Briefed. We launched. And we rendezvoused four aircraft below the clouds, and then climbed two for an assignment above the clouds. And while in and on our way, our combat information center notified us that there were inbound bogies, meaning unidentified aircraft. They could be friendly or enemy. We didn't know. Well, as we popped on top of the clouds, I could see, coming from the north, seven contrails in formation headed right at us. I didn't particularly diagnose who they might be, but they were coming from the Soviet Union direction. Well, as they, uh, were getting near us, the leader of the flight had a warning light that his—well, engine warning problem came on and he was directed to take his wingman and return. We would stay over at the task force. So that left me and my wingman to handle the rest of the mission. So, they said to proceed and intercept. So I charged my guns and made everything ready for war and led the two of us climbing in their directions. Well, as they came over, they reversed and headed back from whence they came and out-distanced me. So when we got to 26,000 feet, they were probably 50 miles north of us and—extreme altitude, 50 some thousand feet, I'm sure—but making contrails, so they were easily sighted. But they split into two groups and turned away from each other and started diving out of that altitude. And when they left the contrail level, it was just plain sight to the airplanes. And I no longer could see them and reported that to the ship. And they had also lost sight in that it was a smaller target and they didn't hold 'em on the radar anymore. So I was directed to reverse course and set up a barricade between the last sighting of the aircraft—which I had identified as MiGs (Mikoyan and Gurevic), which meant enemy—and to patrol between the last sighting and the task force. Well, in that turn, four of them came in sort of head-on—ten o'clock position, all firing—and I knew the game was on. So as they passed, I made a hard turn and ended up on the tail of their last guy. And after a short burst, he fell out of formation and started going down, and my wingman left me and followed that aircraft on down. And so he was out of the fight. And I'm alone with the other three airplanes that dove in the other direction—now joining the group. So I am one against six. So they climbed sharply above me to a rate I couldn't maintain, but I was pointed at them and trailing, and they turned around and came back at me as I'm the target. And I was intending to encounter the guy that just lost his wingman, but I lost him in the sun, and I saw the other two already lined up coming at me. So I switched my aim and aimed at the lead aircraft who was already shooting with larger caliber guns and probably having capability to shoot in an encounter at a greater range. Well, when I sighted on them, I was in range and I fired a short burst. And he stopped, fired, and turned away. And I had later on learned enough information that I have surmised that he was probably hit. The other guy, his wingman, now was coming directly at me and shooting, and I turned and sighted on him. And when I was set ready with him, my target, I fired a burst and he quit firing. But he didn't maneuver. He just kept coming and went directly under my airplane. And I was hosing him all the way. So he was definitely going down. Probably killed. So they had now passed me, but the other three planes came in from the other direction and now they were all split into individuals and taking their turns attacking me. Well, my attention at that point was primarily my six o'clock tail position where they were taking turns on me. And I was their target, and my job was to spoil their aim and survive the attack. And as a good pilot, they often made the run, and then they pulled up abruptly to get back in position to make another run, um, at a rate that I couldn't follow. But there was another guy right behind him, so I was pretty much full-time defensive. Occasionally they made a mistake. One of them flew in front of me and I got on and I hit him close in, and pieces of the airplane were coming off, and I had to maneuver to avoid hitting him. Well, it went on like that for thirty-five minutes. Longer than any other such mission I ever heard of—ever. And they had kept up, and I occasionally had the opportunity to have the sights on 'em and shoot. I at one point was on the tail of one, and he was burning, smoking and going down—slowing. And I was going to give an extra burst, but I was out of ammunition. And I looked around and that's the first time I straightened out that much and didn't pay attention behind me and (he was) on me—right on my tail. So I maneuvered hard, and he kept firing, and he hit me with a 37 millimeter, which is an anti-aircraft size ammunition. And it went into the wing butt on the starboard side of my airplane and exploded in the accessory section of the engine, right mid-airplane and shrapnel everywhere. And it severed the cable connecting to the rudder. So I no longer had that control. And it destroyed all the electrical and—not all of it—but all of the hydraulics. So I had a hydraulic controlled N1s (low speed spools). So I had very little control of that, mainly elevator. But luckily out-maneuvering left me pointed directly at where the task force was, so I didn't have to do a lot of turning to head toward that blizzard and the clouds at 12,000 feet. And this guy settled right on my tail, and 300 feet or so—ideal range to shoot me down—and he was just firing away with all of his guns. But I was using my elevator and I would jam it forward then pull it back. And I'm doing this sort of thing. (Williams gestures up and down). So I'm seeing the bullets go under me, then over me. And this just kept out until I got into the clouds. Heavy clouds that he lost sight of me. I lost sight of him. And since I was damaged and the airplane wasn't flying right—was auto rigged—I did a little testing to see what my survival rate might be. And I was too far away from the task force to eject. I had planned on ejecting, but there wouldn't have been anybody there to rescue me. And that was winter time, the conditions of the water and all. And even with the immersion suit that I was wearing flying, I wouldn't lasted more than maybe 18 minutes. So I stuck with the airplane and kept on track to get to the task force, hoping that I could do something to get rescued there. I didn't believe I'd be able to get landed aboard an aircraft carrier in these conditions, and the conditions of the weather and all. But I got undone and was coming in, under the clouds. So I'm visible to them, and unfortunately they were general quarters. And for all the ships there, that means guns free if they have an unidentified target, hasn't been labeled friendly, they're cleared to shoot. Well, the coordination had broken down between air control and the gunnery liaison people. So they shot at me. And my commanding officer had just taken off to be my relief, to go up and be on the air patrol. And saw what was happening and called them off. Said, he's friendly, and they stopped firing. So I started coordinating with the landing signal officer on the Oriskany, the carrier I was flying from and making plans for what's next. And it looked like I might be able to at least approach the carrier, which means there would probably be rescue forces all over the place. And I still was just barely hopeful I would land on the ship. Well, they were loaded with all the ships aft, the tail end, on a straight deck carrier. So they had to all be moved to the front part of the flight deck to provide space for me to land. That took a while. And I used that time to position myself as best as I could to be where I should be when I got the signal to land. And I tested the airplane at that time, and I found out that it wouldn't fly below 200 miles an hour, 170 knots. So I informed him of that. And they talked to the commanding officer of the carrier and he said, "Bring him in. Any speed he wants." Strong winds from the storm and the ship could do 30 knots. So not a problem speedwise, but alignment was another thing. So when I got the signal to land, I was lined up with the ship into the wind for landing, but I couldn't line up going down the deck to make a landing. I would've come across the deck, which is just a short distance, and I'd (have) gone over into the ocean. At least I would be near rescue forces if I lived through the crash. So I was coming in, doing the best I could, and the captain of the ship saw my plight and, being an aviator, he knew the problem—the only time I ever heard of it. But he turned the ship and lined it up with me, and I landed to catch the number three wire, which is perfect. So I'm back aboard with a whole lot of holes in an airplane, but I'm safe. 00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:31.724 So what happened once you landed and had to—did you hear from Washington or— 00:29:31.724 --> 00:35:41.905 Yes, I went to the ready room. The ship was at general quarters. All the pilots that weren't flying were in the ready room, they're stationed in those conditions. And as I came in—I was surprised—they were all smiling, beaming, and no one's saying anything. And my next job is to be debriefed by the intelligence officer. So I asked him, "What's going on here?" And he says, "I had them all pledge that they wouldn't say anything until I got through debriefing. So we went to the debrief area, and he didn't start talking. I said, "What's going on?" He said, "We are waiting for the flight leader." Well, the flight leader was already over the ship and had nothing to do with this combat. But he waited for him, and when he came in with the last one to land, they'd eaten up a fair amount of time. And on the squat box or radio communication between other units of the ship, the intelligence center is calling in Mac, our intelligence officer, "Get in here, Washington's on the line and they want answers. Right now!" We didn't know anything because the intelligence center would send things on our little—sort of TV—saying that I was engaged and so forth. So they knew that. And they knew I was hit. But not the rest of the story. I didn't know! Actually my attention was that hitting somebody and then diverting it immediately to my next problem. So when the whole flight got back, he started with the flight leader to debrief. And then his wingman, which had a little to say—important. And then to me. And I got a little into it of what little I knew. And he just broke it right up. They just kept—"Mac, get in here, get in here." And so he had to make a report, and he made it up, and it wasn't true. And that became Navy history. They don't wanna' know the truth. All—moving on. It's our last line on the combat line, and we're going into Yokosuka for repairs, replenishment—R&R (rest and recuperation)—and I was ordered to report to Admiral Briscoe, the Senior Navy Admiral in the Pacific—Western Pacific. And when I—oh, on the way down there I saw an aviation boatswain's mate. They're the people that handled the aircraft on the carrier. And I told him who I was and I'd been the pilot and I'd like to take a last look at the airplane before going ashore. He said, "I'm sorry, sir, but we pushed it over the side." And so what I heard was that they robbed it of usable parts, and so forth, and got rid of it. Turns out later, that might not be true. But that's what I was told. So I met with Admiral Briscoe—and I knew his aides and stuff—and they brought me to the door. He said, "The Admiral's waiting." And sure enough I did. He closed the door and he said, "Now, what you're about to hear, you could never tell anybody ever." And that sealed it as far as straightening the record—I just couldn't talk about it. But I learned that we had a new capability called NSA (National Security Agency), and a lot of people say no such agency. They were very closed mouth and don't share information except probably with the President and a few others. But they were on the line on a cruiser right off the coast of Vladivostok, where the base from which these MiGs came. And they wanted that young man to know that he got at least three. Okay, but I can't tell anybody. So I didn't for fifty some years. But in the meantime, Soviet Union broke up, and the Russians out of Moscow came up with a story in 1992 talking about this mission, and they put the names of four that were shot down that day. And then a naval historian came up with a book about something "on the Yalu," covering the big engagement during the Korean War, which was mainly the Air Force half, which was on a daily routine of trying to shoot with another down. But it covered this incident. And of the seven, only one returned. And that's not well known, but that's what the history book says. And where was I going with this? Well, concluded my debrief with Admiral Briscoe and went back to the ship, and in short order learned that President Eisenhower had pledged that if elected, he would go to Korea and see firsthand how things are and what he ought to do about it. And then he learned about this and he says, I want to see Royce Williams. And so as he came over, I was set up to meet him. 00:35:41.905 --> 00:35:47.505 Was it hard for you to maintain that secrecy for so many years? 00:35:47.505 --> 00:36:20.000 It was initially 'cause I just saw a bunch of lies and they put it out as though I said—or Rolands, the wingman, or Middleton, the wingman of the flight leader—all having been in the area, but they gave them credit for things they never did and they never personally admitted that they did it until they got used to it. It sounded so darn good that they played along and abused history. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:31.043 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during either your deployment in Korea or in Vietnam? 00:36:31.043 --> 00:38:02.315 Albeit in an aircraft carrier, I didn't have a lot of opportunity to see others. I was amazed and interested in the visit with President Eisenhower and his staffs and all in Seoul. It was such a battered city. They had two bridges crossing—the river goes through the middle of town—and they were both in the water. I went back and visited after that. They got 22 bridges almost per block crossing the river. And it's just beautiful. What an amazing change in the geography. But I do wanna' say that the Koreans—I can't believe this—have told me they think I saved their nation. And they have been acting like that. And their president came over here, and I met with him, and they presented me with their Medal of Honor. And I've just been inundated with visits from them—bringing presents, and invited me to the consul in Los Angeles, and the consul general's become a friend. I visited their ships. And it's been amazing. 00:38:02.315 --> 00:38:12.704 What kind of friendships and comradery did you form while serving in Korea or in Vietnam, and with whom? 00:38:12.704 --> 00:38:53.014 With the personnel on the ships I was on, primarily your own squadron. You have a ready room, which is the enclosure with seats and briefing materials and whatnot, where you ready yourself for flight. And actually, otherwise, it's sort of a central for that squadron, and people spend a fair amount of time there. Sometimes in the evening you have a movie and so that's kinda' home base outside of your quarters. 00:38:53.014 --> 00:38:58.304 What did you do for recreation when you were off duty? 00:38:58.304 --> 00:39:21.605 Volleyball, running, maybe a little sunbathing—very little. Some reading, some studies, some—you have other assignments besides flying, So you have to pay attention to that as well. 00:39:21.605 --> 00:39:29.824 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while on shift? 00:39:29.824 --> 00:40:34.364 Found to be a bunch of them (laughs). Well it's—our pilots get shot down, and if they're rescued, they eventually go by way of another ship and then used breeches buoy, which is a sort of a seat that you get on and have wires connecting two ships and you spin and you can send this little trolley thing with the chair back and forth to send supplies or people. And in a big storm, while they're doing that, the ships come together. Sometimes that close without engaging one another (Williams extends arms in front of himself). But that makes that line instead of taught go down like this (lowers arms). The people often get dipped in the ocean and then come snap it back out of it (raises arms). It's kind of an interesting drill. 00:40:34.364 --> 00:40:38.085 Was there something that you did for good luck? 00:40:38.085 --> 00:40:58.085 No, pray! I am religious and I give credit—I should not have survived that incident, but I did—and I did it with other outside help. God was with me. 00:40:58.085 --> 00:41:06.925 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:41:06.925 --> 00:43:59.045 In San Diego, I had had a plane crash where I broke 11 vertebrae. I continued to serve and fly, but the medical department made exceptions in my case to where I was authorized certain medications that I should not have been taking and flying. And as time went on and I would indicate need for more help, they would increase it. And I got to a point of a ridiculous amount. And then the flight surgeon, when I came back from our first tour in Vietnam, talked to his friend who was the leader of the medical department at Pensacola, Florida. And they were so surprised they ordered me to go back to Pensacola for an evaluation. Well, during that they said everything is doable. For instance, thyroid normalcy is around two grains. They had me on five and a half grains a day. And they said, no, it's normal. Just stop taking it. Well, there were results. My hair's falling out, I'm just weary. I'm flying day and night off the carrier. And the results of that study was studied in Washington at the Bureau of Navy Medicine and Surgery. They said, this can't be. So, they got the Bureau of Personnel to give me new orders that you authorize for flight in combat, at sea, down at the actual command—at the actual controls. Why is the wing commander, for heaven's sake? I said, How do I run a wing in combat not flying? So I sent myself to the school for the rear seat—the naval flight officer, we call 'em now—now we have their old set of wings and so forth. At that time, it was so early in the game that we were using the wings that were also used for enlisted flight crew. But as time went on, I was a primary player in getting that law changed that didn't allow NFOs (Naval Flight Officers) to have command. So for officers, NFOs, they'd probably quit at lieutenant commander. There's just no further promotion for 'em. Well, we got that law changed and now we have four-star admirals as NFOs. 00:43:59.045 --> 00:44:02.965 Did you return home when your service ended— 00:44:02.965 --> 00:44:03.000 Oh, ah! 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000 —Sorry, go ahead. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:46:14.405 So where was I? My physical problems were starting to make life tougher. I started dragging the leg and they sent me to the hospital here in San Diego and operated on me. And I came out, and they put me on temporary retirement until I got healthy. Then I got recalled in 1980. This was—I went in early, second month in '42 and then went out in the first of January in '80. So there was a little gap from when I came out of the hospital until I was cleared for active duty again. And meanwhile, I'd had a ship and a whole lot of very important jobs. I had two-star job on Admiral McCabe staff, who was the first Inspector General, CINCPAC (Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet). I was Chief of Staff COMFAIRWESTPAC (Commander, Fleet Air Western Pacific). A whole lot of pretty important stuff. But I came on back and was on COMATG PAC staff (Afloat Training Group Pacific) when I went to the hospital and they operated on me, set me aside, I came back, and I got ordered as commodore with amphibious task force for training. So I took a group of 20 some ships to Hawaii and that sort of thing. And I came back and retired in 1980, built this house, and grew 200 rose bushes. Spent an awful lot of time below the hill (laughs). 00:46:14.405 --> 00:46:22.324 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work, or did you go back to school, or— 00:46:22.324 --> 00:46:52.505 I got a master's degree in college. And I worked for a company as vice president of a startup group. And I saw that they had problems, and I excused myself, and said if they straightened out their operation, I'd be pleased to come back. But in the meantime, they went to jail and I did not. 00:46:52.505 --> 00:46:56.824 Did the GI Bill affect you after you completed your service? 00:46:56.824 --> 00:46:57.293 The what? 00:46:57.293 --> 00:47:02.445 The Montgomery GI Bill or the GI Bill for education? 00:47:02.445 --> 00:47:02.652 —Yes— 00:47:02.652 --> 00:47:03.474 Did you use that? 00:47:03.474 --> 00:47:04.755 —Yes, I used that. 00:47:04.755 --> 00:47:06.000 What are your thoughts on it? 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:57.065 Excellent. Yeah, it helped me feel fulfilled. I didn't actually use the ability—I also, once I completed the business part of it, I went into law and I was working down near San Ysidro and leaving here at about five-thirty in the morning and getting back at ten and spending all day Saturday in my office reading and my wife bringing me coffee. And just—I said, Why am I doing this? And I had no good reason. So I didn't continue in the law business. 00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:01.954 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:48:01.954 --> 00:48:03.025 What type? 00:48:03.025 --> 00:48:05.164 Veterans. Military veterans— 00:48:05.164 --> 00:48:20.224 Oh, yes. Oh goodness, yes. All of them. Yeah. Legion (The American Legion), VFW (The Veterans of Foreign Wars of the U.S), the DAV (Disabled American Veterans), and a lot of local groups. Mostly aviation oriented. But I have something almost every day. 00:48:20.224 --> 00:48:27.394 Did you continue any friendships after the service and for how long? 00:48:27.394 --> 00:49:09.545 Well, I was taken out of the circle of friends. When I moved out here, I formed a lot of friendships, became engrossed in the Homeowner's Association. Golfing. But as far as contact, when I learned to play the email bit, I stayed in contact with some of my military friends. But most have died, and I just now get spam (smiles). 00:49:09.545 --> 00:49:20.864 These are reflections. So, how has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:49:20.864 --> 00:50:56.394 Wow, you covered it all (laughs). Immensely! Especially since an admiral that I had served with the four different times, at a reunion came to me and said, "Hey, Royce, there's more to your story than you've told, isn't there?" I said, Yes, sir. And he says, "Well, do you know that it's no longer classified and you could talk about it?" Well, new world. What am I gonna do with this? Nobody knows enough to even ask me to say anything. So I told my wife and she said, "Oh, Royce!" (laughs). But eventually the word got out, and I'm nominated for the Medal of Honor. And that has spread the word. I'm busy with speaking, visiting engagements. You know, it's impacted it very heavily. As far as the church goes, I've been president of the congregation—active in there until I got so old that I don't do that anymore. I've been busy, yeah. I've been involved—when I engage in something, I pretty well go in wholeheartedly and try to find a slot where they can use me. 00:50:56.394 --> 00:51:06.114 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:51:06.114 --> 00:51:27.954 Outlook. Keep positive. Try to be happy. Don't get mad—you don't have any enemies. Never did. People wanted to kill me, but that was the government's business. Same here in my part. 00:51:27.954 --> 00:51:36.585 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:51:36.585 --> 00:52:06.934 To take their responsibilities in citizenship seriously. And if you can find a way to contribute—and there are lots of ways you can—do something for your country. When you do that, you're doing something for everybody and especially yourself. 00:52:06.934 --> 00:52:17.514 How did you become associated with the city of Escondido in this north San Diego County community? 00:52:17.514 --> 00:54:31.735 1965, I was a waiting commander. My headquarters at Miramar Naval Air Station. And I lived in south Escondido and had church membership in the community. I had three sons that were all at home at that time before they went in the Navy and whatnot. And a lovely wife who was involved in Ikebana Japanese floral arranging. And was very good at it, as you can see her hand right here at home. And a good cook. And I had some guns and enjoyed shooting. So if I wasn't required on the job on a Saturday, we would often—she'd make a picnic lunch and we'd take some of our guns and look for a place to shoot. And I found hidden metals before there were any homes out here. Just a dirt road coming up. And I loved it so much. It's just—it's beauty. So, later on in 1972, I was on Admiral McCabe's staff in Hawaii, and I already had far more than the 30 years of service, and I knew I would be required to leave any day soon and had no place to retire. So wife and I came back—space available—and borrowed my dad's car and came up to Escondido—he lived in San Diego at that time. And headed straight up here once I got my instructions right. And there were only two houses but underground facilities, roads, and beautiful place. And so I bought some property here, which I built on later. And, so from the very beginning, they've had my fingerprint up here. 00:54:31.735 --> 00:54:45.355 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:54:45.355 --> 00:55:00.445 No, I've had plenty of opportunity to talk to groups, and I don't withhold anything that I think is of value, so it's pretty well out there. 00:55:00.445 --> 00:55:07.045 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:55:07.045 --> 00:55:37.474 That the very highest percentage of them are genuine, loving Americans that felt they wanted to do something for the sake of everybody in the nation. And that once they get committed there, it's the lifetime and they're an important productive part of community. 00:55:37.474 --> 00:55:52.155 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:55:52.155 --> 00:56:23.144 Try and be somewhat organized but realize that there isn't much you're going to accomplish on your own. It's a team sport. Get to know other people. Some you'll find have a lot of guidance, maybe some provide opportunity. You're not gonna' do it by yourself. Have a family if you're so oriented. That's an important part of my life. 00:56:23.144 --> 00:56:24.635 Thank you, Captain Williams. 00:56:24.635 --> 00:56:25.635 You're welcome. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-074 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States -- Armed Forces -- Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D.) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Taitingfong OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. SC027-083 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Guam ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Chamorro language ; Decolonization ; Colonization ; Language revival David Taitingfong Robert Sheehan audio file TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7dcf86c4fe6bc8b429316d83d49b9a41.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Dabit (David) Taitingfong sits down to discuss Chamorro, indigenous Guamanian, culture, heritage, and language. Chamorro ; language ; culture Guam ; Chamorro 0 23 Early Childhood and Growing up in San Diego David talks about where he was born and his early connection to the Chamorro community and culture. 0 183 Visiting Guam for the First Time David discusses how his first visit to Guam and his ancestral village, Yona, impacted his cultural and language learning process. 0 592 Colonial Occupation of Guam David talks about the history of colonialism on Guam and how that has affected the culture and the Chamorro language. 0 1481 Fluency vs. Literacy in Chamorro David talks about the two orthographies in the Chamorro language and how some Chamorro elders are only fluent in Chamorro and lack any education in Chamorro literacy. 0 2007 Chamorro Social Media David discusses how he created his Instagram page which is dedicated to teaching Chamorro language and culture. 0 2515 How the Chamorro Language Creates Connections within the Chamorro Community David talks about how his language learning process has reignited his family's and friend's interest in speaking Chamorro and learning more. 0 Oral history David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.000 So today is Friday, August 30th, 2024. My name is Robert Sheehan and I'm here with David Taitingfong for an oral history interview with Cal State San Marcos. How are you doing today, David? 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.999 I'm good. How are you? 00:00:11.999 --> 00:00:23.000 I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for being here with me today and dealing with our technical difficulties. Um, if it's all right, I'd like to start with your childhood, um, and your family. Could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and how you grew up? 00:00:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 Yeah, so I was born and raised in Southern San Diego. Um, my parents, we lived in Otay Mesa, which is real close to the border, about two or three exits away from the border. But because my parents had to work, we actually used my dad's mom's address as like, this is where we'll go to school. That way after school, I can go to my grandma's house. And so my childhood mostly was waking up, getting up, getting dropped off in a completely different neighborhood, like 30 minutes away. But that meant I got to be with my cousins because we all kind of went to the same, we all went to the same elementary school then like one or two middle schools, and then we branched out from high school. But, um, me and my brother, we did that growing up. Um, so that was more in Southeast San Diego. The, it was in the, the Jamacha neighborhood, which is near Skyline, which is, I mean, overall just, yeah, Southeast San Diego. And so that's where, that's where like most of my childhood was, honestly. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:32.000 Okay. And other than your nuclear family, did you have any sort of connection with the Chamorro community, uh, outside of your family? 00:01:32.000 --> 00:02:24.000 Yes, very much so. So my grandma, my dad's mom, um, in the neighborhood she lived in right next door was her cousin, and across the street was her cousin. And then down the street was my mom's sister. And then around the corner was like my mom's aunt. And so it was just, it felt like I grew up around the community a lot. And then also the thing I remember a lot is in Southeast San Diego, in the Lincoln area, there's a club, The Sons and Daughters of Guam's Club. I think it used to be, I don't know if it used to be called the San Diego Guam Club, but either way, the initials work out the SD Guam Club. And every year they host like little fiestas for the patron saint of each village on Guam. And the saint where my mom's mom was from. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:03:01.000 That fiesta always happened around my birthday. And so that's where I, I would say I got most of the interaction with the Chamorro community at large was going to the fiesta, going to the fiesta, which was for the village of Yona, the village of Yona and Guam's. They call it the south. It's like the middle south, but it's where I would say I feel most mostly attached to. 'Cause it's the fiesta we always went to, and it's my mom's side. And like traditionally culturally, Chamorros' are matrilineal. And so for me it's like, I feel like I've always gravitated towards my mom's side at least later on. For sure. 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.000 And have you ever visited, is it Zonia? Yona? 00:03:04.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Yeah. Um, yeah, so I , I went to Guam two years ago, maybe for the first time in my life. I was supposed to go there for a language immersion program. I wasn't able to make it in time. I got there the day it ended and then I was like, you know what? My cousin was in it, let me just spend time with her. And then I got COVID and we all did actually. So I spent my entire trip with like five people, the same five people. But I was able to go to the village of Yona. I have a cousin who still lives there. I was like, I don't know if I should visit you because I got COVID. She's like, oh, I had it two weeks ago. You're fine. Like, come here. I have gifts for you . So I was able to visit, uh, I don't know exactly which parts within the village, my mom's side is from, but my cousin from my mom's side, she was there. So she showed me a little bit of her land and I was like, okay, this is cool. I, I'm, I actually going back next year. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:10.000 Oh, very nice! It seems like a good way to connect back with family and cultural roots and stuff like that. Can you describe the village? 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Uh, you know, not entirely, because again, like when I had went, it was kind of like, I don't know if I should, my cousin was like, just come on through. But where she lived most of the houses, it was like a house, and then I would say a good chunk of land around each house. Because even when she invited me, she's like, you come over and see the ranch. And I was like, what does that mean? You know? And sure enough, we go there. It's like she has a house and I mean, I'm not even good with geography, but she definitely had enough land that I could probably do like, maybe it was like two basketball courts side by side. And she's like, yeah, this is like, we grow stuff and catch pigs here sometimes 'cause they try and eat all her stuff. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:34.000 But it's, yeah. And I want to say actually where she lives too used to be a lot of military housing. So it kind of has a feel like that where it looks modern American, but the military have since moved out of that specific area. I don't know if that's how it was, but that's how it felt like to me. Like I pulled up and I was like, okay, like a lot of these houses look like they were like, what's the -- cookie cutter? You know? Um, 'cause you go to other parts of Guam and it's not like that, like houses kind of tend to look different. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.000 And there's a big military presence on, on Guam, correct? 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Yeah. Yeah. Biggest I think would be [US] Air Force and Navy and I know they're building, or no, they've already built a Marine Corps base there, which I mean a department of the Navy. 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:58.000 How do local Guamanians and Chamorros feel about the United States military on Guam? 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:48.000 It's a, it's a mixed bag, I would say. Because after World War II, everyone was split. I know on my dad's side, they were more grateful. So there was, there's a story of a man, I believe his name was, Robert? Robert Tweed? Well, I just know his last name's Tweed. And he was one of, he was an American, service member who was hiding from the Japanese. And a lot of families helped him. My dad's mom, her family was one of the people who had helped him, like, helped him hide until more reinforcements came and stuff. And so I know on my dad's side of the family, they're very much grateful for that. I never really got much war stories from my mom's side. I don't know how they feel about that. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:07:26.000 But I would say where I'm at in my life now, most of my peers, most of the people I associate with are against it for sure. In the sense of like, at least against it in the sense of if you want to use our stuff, at least ask. 'cause that's currently not the relationship, right? It's pretty much anything at the federal level kind of just kind of just goes, GovGuam [Government of Guam] does a lot of stuff, but if the military's like, Hey, we want to do this. I think one of the requirements that they have to do is just like, conduct studies, but they conduct the study. So it's like, it's kind of kinda weird. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.000 Who's watching the watchers kinda thing? 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.000 Yeah. . 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:35.000 Okay. Can I rewind a little bit back to high school? What high school did you go to? 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:41.491 I went to Morris High School, also in Southeast, skyline area. 00:07:41.491 --> 00:07:45.000 Okay. And was there a large contingent of Chamorro kids who went to your high school? 00:07:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Uh, I wouldn't say it was large. There's definitely, we all knew each other. I would say that for sure. And there was enough of us, because again, the Guam Club is literally down the street from Lincoln. Lincoln, while I was in high school, had closed for renovations. And so all the kids who could have went there had to go to other schools. A lot of 'em went to Morris. And I did meet a lot of Chamorros that way. And then because again, of the big military presence on Guam and the other island, on the other northern islands, kids tend to find their way, either through their -- mostly, I mean, if I was in high school -- through their parents. Right. And so most of the people I met, they're like, oh yeah, like my parent, my family just moved out here 'cause they're stationed here, you know? And so not a lot. Well enough for sure. It was nice. Like, you see somebody, you see, in their papers or in class, they're doing roll call. You hear the last name. You're like, that's, that's a chamorro last name. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000 Okay. Can you gimme some examples of what a Chamorro last name would be or how you can tell? 00:08:51.000 --> 00:09:50.000 Yeah. So like, my last name is, um, we would pronounce it Taitingfong. And so we have a lot of last names with T-A-I, it's a prefix that means like, without, and there's like a lot of history there, but if you heard someone Taitingfong, Taitano, Taimagung, Taisagui and then like on my mom's side, there's Acadino, and then there's some Spanish ones that are mixed in. But there's like, you, you could, if, so like my mom, her middle, um, her name was Mediola Acadino, and a Mendiola is not technically Chamorro, but if, if you say your name's Mendiola, and I look at you and I'm like you look Chamorro. Um, so there's some Spanish ones, but then yeah, like the Chamorro ones, [Chamorro surnames] there's like Q-U-I was another popular one, like a prefix where I was like, oh, that might be Chamorro. Because that's how the Spanish wrote it. But in our language, it would be like a K-E. 00:09:50.000 --> 00:10:09.000 And just like the US military, Spain has a long history in that area as well. And with language it seems to have bled through a little bit. Yeah. Uh, can you talk a little bit about how that heritage or history happened and how it affected language? 00:10:09.000 --> 00:11:08.000 Yeah. I want to say, I mean, 'cause Spain has, Spain had a presence in the Marianas for a long time, since like the 1500s. But from what I've read, it was primarily through commerce. They didn't have intentions of colonizing the islands. They were just like, we want a port here. We want to stop. 'Cause they were going from Mexico to the Philippines straight. But if they needed to stop, eventually at some point they're like, oh, here's Guam and here's the other islands, the Northerner Islands and stuff. But I wanna say Guam was the main port. It was the biggest island. And in terms of how that language spread, I mean, again, through commerce and stuff, and then through eventual colonization, primarily through a religious means, the language bled through. And one thing that I think is interesting though is that the Chamorros kind of took their words that they liked and they don't, sometimes they don't mean the same thing. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:51.000 And then we also treat them as if they are Chamorro words, if that makes sense. Like, we affix them as if they're our own words. And one, one of my friends told me, he's like, the true tale of if we have fully adopted a word is if we afix it however we want, there's some words where we don't, we still -- there's certain phrases I think that stay through. Like, um, if someone says sabe dios, like, we took the word dios for God and say Yu'os, but we also don't say sabe. So like in that context of the phrase sabe dios, it's like, well, we kept that otherwise though. Yeah. We just took words and we're like, we're gonna say it how we say it. Hey, fix it how we affix it. 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:56.000 Very interesting! I like you kind of flip it around and say, no, this is our word now. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.000 Are you said that happens quite a bit in the Chamorro language. 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000 Yeah. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:06.000 And did you start speaking Chamorro at home when you were little or later on? 00:12:06.000 --> 00:13:35.000 Later on. Much later. When the pandemic started, my teacher at the time, Dr. Michael Lujan Bevacqua, he was doing a weekend class on Guam at a coffee shop, maybe like at max 10 people. When the Pandemic started, coffee shops closed, he was like, oh, I should just do it online. And a few months before he had actually like, kind of trial ran it with another group, a group that was based outta the east coast of the United States. And he did like a, I forgot how long it was, but he did a few classes online and was like, oh, this is a feasible way to instruct and so -- excuse me --. And so he was like, okay, I'll open it up to the public at large, you know, Saturday Guam time, Friday in the States. And that's when I, that's when I like really found a good schedule because the first time, technically when I learned online with him was when he did that trial run. And it, quite interestingly, I was on my honeymoon and I was like, Hey, can I do this? And she's like, if you're okay with the time difference, like, sure. You know, and so I was up at like 2:00 AM in Barcelona, in a class for an hour, you know? Um, but that's when it started for me. So I really only started 2020. At the beginning of 2020 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:37.998 Okay. Do you consider yourself fluent? 00:13:37.998 --> 00:14:05.000 I would say pretty, I would say, I could definitely hold a conversation with most speakers. Um, like the real, real fluent elders. Sometimes they speak really fast or if they're, if they're chewing pugua, which is a bit, um, beetle net, which is just something like we, we chew out on the islands sometimes, like the words can get jumbled. I can't catch it. Um, but I would say I'm pretty fluent now. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:12.486 How popular is Chamorro on Guam? Do people still speak it as a primary language? 00:14:12.486 --> 00:15:02.000 Not right now. There's definitely a cultural shift to get there, especially recently, just within the past, I think month, there is a school that's been running for I think 17 ish years. The Chief Hurao Academy, they do [an] immersion program for children. And I know sometimes they try and do it for adults as well. They just got charter status. And so I want to say it's gonna grow to become even more. But definitely on Guam, it's been in a decline. It's been in decline since World War II. And then I can't speak much for the northern islands for Rota or Saipan. I know folks still speak it. Um, and I want to say though, it is still mostly a at home thing. 'cause even when I went there, I was like really excited to flex my tongue. And I was like, okay. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:39.000 And then I'd go into a coffee shop, you know, I'm just like, hafa adai and they're like, hafa adai. And then like, that's it, you know? Or the first, actually the first time I was, I had a full conversation was I went to a cemetery to look for family, like family graves and stuff. And I saw this lady and I heard her speaking Chamorro to another coworker. So I walk up and I, I talk, I'm talking to her in Chamorro. And it's funny 'cause she's like snacking on something and she's like, oh, nen, how are you? And nen is short for neni, which is just like, it means baby, but, you know, and a term of endearment, oh nen, how can I help you? And I was just like, oh. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:16:28.000 [Speaking Chamorro] Which is like, oh, I'm sorry, like, if you don't mind, can you help me? And she like wiped her mouth and put her food away. And she was like, whoa. You know? She was kind of like -- and I think it's because I looked younger than somebody who she would assume can speak Chamorro. And I also, I think she could tell I wasn't from the island, you know, the way I was dressed and my accent wasn't good, or like, as typical sounding. And so she started talking back to me and she gave me instructions. And I was just like, okay [speaking Chamorro]. And then, yeah. But I could tell she was like, what is going on? Which was when I realized like, okay, out here, it's still, it's still blossoming, it's still, seeds are still being planted and it's definitely not as much. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Why do you think that the Chamorro language was in a decline and it's needed this revitalization? 00:16:38.000 --> 00:17:26.000 So post World War II, effectively it was made -- I don't know the correct, like legal terms -- I wanna say it was made law made mandate. I don't know what legal term they used, but effectively they were saying, you can't speak Chamorro in public. You can't speak Chamorro at schools. And then at schools, if you were speaking Chamorro, you were like fined financially or physically punished. And because of that, when, you know, you go home and that word gets to your family, they're like, okay, well learn English then. Like, well, maybe we'll speak Chamorro more to you at home. Like, I know my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, and I know my parents grew up hearing the language, but because of that, it, it just bled out into all of the villages. 00:17:26.000 --> 00:18:22.000 They're like, don't speak this language, it's your language, but don't speak it. And in public, in schools, you know, save it for the home. And because of that, the language -- maybe if it's only being spoken at home, you go out in public -- it's you, you go out in public and now post World War II, life is different, right? There's so many other things happening now. There's industries that are coming to fruition because of post-war. And, now it's like, well, if I can't speak Chamorro, I can't even create new terms for this. So it's like, I can't communicate, oh, we all speak English though, so, or we're all trying to learn English. So it was, I think it was definitely one of those things, 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.000 And that's horrible. First off, ut that, that kind of historical trauma, does it still have its kind of finger around moral culture? 00:18:26.000 --> 00:19:15.000 I would say yes. Um, and I actually didn't feel that way until recently. I tend to be on the optimistic side, I tend to feel very optimistic about the future of the language and the future of many things. Because, on my mom's side, I have one native speaker left. I might have -- my mom understands, I know her, one of her other sisters understands. I actually haven't talked with my uncles in a while. Should probably do that -- I don't know if they understand, but I know a lot of, like my mom's generation, they understand but they don't speak it. And so my mom's eldest sister, um, when I started learning, my mom was like, Hey, by the way, Dabit is learning the language, Dabit is what, like David in Chamorro, like Dabit's learning Chamorro, you should talk with them. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:50.000 And at first my aunt was like, for real, you know? And I think she even said something to me like, really fast. And I was like, Ooh, I didn't catch that. So she said, it began slower. And I was like, okay, I have someone I can at least try to talk with. And when I finally sat and had a conversation with her, she did open up to me. And we actually had a good long cry, which just like it was, we were at a party and then we just kind of sat off to the side talking about our own thing. And she told me something that like her sisters didn't even know, you know? So when I asked my mom later -- like in the moment, I was already crying 'cause it was sad -- And then later I was like, Hey mom, how come you didn't tell me this? 00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:34.000 And she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I was like, wow. Um, and then I found that to be the case with a lot of the elders, at least who I was talking to in my circles. And, you know, I would go to certain events and I would try and find someone who looks like they'll talk to me or maybe someone I already know and I'm like, oh, I can speak Chamorro now, let me try this. And some of 'em were receptive. Um, but I guess it would depend on where you're at. Because recently I had some family file from the east coast and my dad, it's on my dad's side, and he's like, Hey, your uncle speaks Chamorro, you should talk to him. And when I would try to talk Chamorro to him, he would acknowledge me, but respond in English, you know? 00:20:34.000 --> 00:21:24.000 And after a few sentences, he was like, why are you trying to learn the language? It's dead, you know? And I was like, whoa. Like, it was the first time I had an elder say that. So I was like, oh shoot. And so there's definitely, there's definitely people like that. There's definitely people out there and Chamorro's out there who were like, there's no point. Even though they have the, the knowledge and to share. It's the, I would say the trauma is still there. And then there's also the, um -- my, my mom's sister, the fluent speaker, one reason she was hesitant to converse with me -- primarily the way I asked her, I was like, can you teach me stuff? And the first thing she said was, I can't read the language. And I don't know, like the grammar, you know? And so I was like, okay, let me rephrase this. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:22:01.000 Can we just talk in Chamorro? You know, because like, I didn't care, right? Like your my [aunt], your mom, my grandma wasn't a teacher. Her mom wasn't [a teacher], her mom wasn't. Right. Like these official titles I think sometimes can prevent the elders from wanting to pass down the generation. 'cause they're like, oh, I don't know if it's right. You know? But it's like, but if this is the language you speak with all your peers, like it's technically right, right? Like we have grammar based rules, but at the same time, you know, language has changed, languages fluctuate. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:10.000 Especially with the influx of all the new technology post World War II, we were talking about. How have the Chamorro people in the Chamorro language incorporated those new terms into language? 00:22:10.000 --> 00:23:05.000 I would say there's like three routes that I can think of off the top of my head. The first route is kind of a common sense approach. Like do we just, do we try to make a word for it or do we just call it what it's, right. So like the word bus, they just say bus. For truck, they just say truck for a machete, they just say machete, right? So like there's that where it's like, just take the word and say it in our tone. There's another approach which is like to take -- oh, and actually in that regard too -- it's like, take the English word or take the Spanish word or whatever and just kind of funnel it into the language. I would say the second approach is trying to create the word or change the word using our own words. 00:23:05.000 --> 00:24:37.000 So I would say one example is, -- excuse me again -- Um, the word escuela, we use it for school, but with a lot of my peers, we also have interest in like reclaiming the language, so to speak. And so when possible it's like, can we recreate this word? And so instead of saying escuela, um, I have friends, actually, I think this is a more accepted term now is fa'na'gue yanggen. And the word [speaking Chamorro] means to learn by doing. And then one of my favorite things about the language, we have a circum-fix. Something that encompasses a word. So it's fan and an if it ends in a consonant or fan and yan if it ends in a vowel. And so [speaking Chamorro] means like a place of learning. So there's like, there's that approach. Um, and then the third approach would be, if it's just too complicated, just spell it how it's, so one example is the app WhatsApp, right? Like, Chamorro's love WhatsApp. And if you have to literally write it, if there's like legal text or something, again, you might see escuela, [speaking Chamorro] and blah blah blah. But they'll put a single quote and just write WhatsApp single quote. And that's kind of how they take, that's kind of how we take the approach to the language. It's like what's actually being said? What can we create so that it's said? And then if not -- like no one's gonna translate X-ray. We're just gonna write X-ray. Just leave it alone. 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:55.000 That's really interesting. I like that. You'd mentioned, um, kind of the grammatical structure of the language and also writing. You said your aunt was not fluent in a written way, but she was in an oral way. Are you fluent in Chamorro writing? 00:24:55.000 --> 00:26:05.000 Yes. And I would actually say maybe more so than some of my peers because in the current moment there are two official orthographies, orthography being the, like the written rules about how we portray the language. And so there's the Guam orthography and the NMI orthography, the Northern Marianas Island orthography. Um, the Guam orthography is a one word, one spelling approach. And the NMI orthography is a one sound, one symbol. And this comes in, I think they both have strengths, they both have weaknesses. Um, but I know both and right now, because, I mean Guam's the bigger island and, I would say they have more resources. I think more people know the Guam orthography than they do the NMI orthography. And so for me, I started with the Guam orthography and I was getting confused at some points. But once I started teaching I realized I liked the NMI orthography more for helping people pronunciate things. 00:26:05.000 --> 00:27:00.000 Because when you read something written in the NMI, it's written how it sounds, which is useful for reading. Um, I would say for new people it's confusing. Because like the word tiningo', which means like knowledge tiningo' that last syllable was like, ooh. Um, but when you start to afix it and change it, like if I wanted to say my knowledge, I would say tiningo'-hu right? And so that difference in sound when you read it, it's like, okay, yeah. But now if you're trying to learn the word, you don't know which one to look up really. Guam doesn't have that problem one word, one spelling, no matter how you say it. Which I think has created interesting variations in speakers already. Like I have friends who only know the Guam orthography and they pronounce words the way they see 'em. And I would say that's due to a lack of speakers around them. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:33.000 But again, like that's probably just what's gonna happen. There's gonna be like a dialect of folks who learned by reading. Not a problem. But it's just like, it's something I've started to pick up on through my, through listening. Whereas like with the NMI orthography too. If I give somebody something in the NMI orthography, they think they're looking up like three or four words, you know? I'm like, oh no, this is the same word. It's just they spell it based on how it sounds and so that it can get confusing there. Uh, but yeah, to answer your question, I would say I'm pretty good with it. , 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:45.000 It sounds like it! Your pretty knowledgeable about both just sets of orthographies. Is Chamorro a gendered language? Like Spanish is where there's a masculine and a feminine 00:27:45.000 --> 00:28:15.000 For borrowed words. Yeah. So like for teacher you would say most folks would probably say maestro or maestra. Uh, but we do have like, let's say an indigenous term fafa'na'gue, which isn't gendered at all. Um, and then we have like the word saina, which means like elder. But we do also have mom and dad, Nana and Tata. But I believe even those are borrowed. So in its the truest sense, no, but when we borrow words, definitely. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:22.000 I see. Alright. Rewinding once again after high school, um, did you go to college? 00:28:22.000 --> 00:29:07.000 Yes. Yeah. So, well, I went to college and then I got DQ'ed, I got academically disqualified, went to community college and then was too proud to pull out loans or ask for money. So I was working. So I did that. School, got kicked out, work. I did that for four years. 2012, joined the military. A lot of irony there. Got out in 2016, went back to school. Well, I went back to school before I even got out. But at 2016, went back to Southwestern College in Chula Vista, got my associates, transferred to Cal State Long Beach. And then I finished up in 2019. 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.000 Okay. And what was your degree in? 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:09.999 Computer science. 00:29:09.999 --> 00:29:12.000 Computer science. And what branch of the military were you in? 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.998 Marine Corps. Yeah. 00:29:13.998 --> 00:29:26.000 Okay. And after you graduated, did you immediately go into the computer science field or was there a time where you were kind of figuring out what you wanted to do? 00:29:26.000 --> 00:30:33.000 So I went right into it because during my last semester, I had an internship when I was at Cal State Long Beach. I had an internship with Northrop Grumman in their, like, aerospace sector. They like renamed it. At the time it was called Aerospace. It might be called something different like space. Oh, it's called, I think now it's called Space Systems. And they have aeronautical systems. 'cause they wanted that elevation difference . Um, but I, so I was doing that. And yeah, it was a mix of like computer science, computer engineering, what I was doing there. When they gave me a job offer, I asked them if I can go to San Diego. They got me one, went down to San Diego, one of the offices in RB (Rancho Bernardo). And yeah, I was doing, I would say it was still like a mix of what I was doing. There was like a little computer sciencey somewhat IT, like some--they call it DevOps. Like it's kind of like the middle boat. And then now I work at Apple and I'm doing like legit software development. 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:44.000 Very cool. Congratulations! And do you meet Chamorro software engineers frequently or Pacific Islanders software engineers? 00:30:44.000 --> 00:31:55.000 Yeah. I wouldn't say frequently. 'cause that definitely whenever I meet even a Pacific Islander in, in tech, it's always like, oh wow. Um, in terms of Chamorro's though, I wanna say the first software engineer I met was through one of Dr. Michael's classes. I'm not, I'm gonna just call him Miget , um, Miget's classes. And he's a software engineer for Costco. I think he lives in the Pacific Northwest. And I was like, oh wow, that's cool. Like, I've never met another one. He's like, oh, have you met Benny? And so he introduced me to another, another guy older than me. I was like, should I call him uncle? I don't think so. But Benny, he's a, he's been a software developer for like 20 something years. Doing mostly like web development. And so I was like, oh wow, okay. There's more of us. But aside from that, I don't think, I know there is, I haven't met this person, but I know someone is running, there's like an online dictionary. They took this Chamorro dictionary and made it into a website. And I know they're running it or like they were given the grant to do it or something. And so I know, I don't know who that person is though. I, I should reach out. 00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:03.968 That's very cool. So they're like a, so it sounds like there's like a network--Or at least loosely? 00:32:03.968 --> 00:32:28.000 If there is, I'm not a part of it yet. I have always wanted to, because even though my interest started in computer science, because I got so deep in the language space, I, I have always wanted to do something in the computational linguistics field. Ever since I started learning, I'm like, man, this would be really cool. But I just haven't because I've been too busy trying to learn the language and trying to teach the language. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:48.000 Do you feel like you're close to a point now where you might be able to move towards that computational linguistics? Because from an outsider's perspective, it sounds like you're very fluent and very knowledgeable about the language and how it's structured and you could teach it. 00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:27.000 Yeah, I don't think so. I think it's, to me, it's still a dream just because I have found so much community and love and appreciation for the work I'm doing. Like, just like on social media, you know, or just by meeting with people and speaking the language to them. I think right now, that outweighs my desire to try and beat Google at creating a translate. Because if you go to translate.google.com, they have Chamorro. And in the past month we've been roasting it 'cause it's incredibly wrong. It's so wrong. It's funny. 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:42.000 Okay. Um, speaking of social media, I noticed that you have an Instagram page that's kind of devoted to the Chamorro language and Chamorro culture and experience. What caused you to want to create that? 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:53.000 There was a time, I think I started last year. So currently I'm on break because I have a four month old at home. 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000 Congratulations! 00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Thank you. But I was like, I'm gonna take a break because I'm probably not gonna have the time. And then my wife's back in school, so it was like, okay, really no time. But when I had started it, my cousin had showed me a video from TikTok and there was a guy, he's not even Chamorro, but I think his wife is Chamorro, and he was just speaking Chamorro. He was a student of the Chief Hurao Academy. He did their adult program. He's like, uh, he's like, I should learn because my kid, I want my kid to learn. And so he had a video and he made stuff he like, was just saying, I think, I don't even remember what the video was about. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:35:14.000 I think it was just phrases. But you can tell from the video that he was on island because he was making references that like, you probably only understand if you're around the culture. And specifically on the island though. And my cousin showed me this and she was like, Dabit, you should do this. You should make videos like you're a good teacher. 'cause at the time too, actually, I was doing my own Zoom class with my cousins, which reminds me, I told them I'd start back up and I haven't, but I was doing that and they're like, you should do this. You're so social, you're so out there. Like, you should just do it. And yeah, that's really it. I just, one day I was like, you know what, here's some lines. Make a video. I put it out there. And then I did it again. 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:51.000 I don't think it was until maybe the fifth video where people were like, who is this guy? Why are you, you know? And then I had people comment, I had friends who were like, do you write scripts? And I was like, not really. They're like, you should write scripts, blah, blah, blah. They're like, it looks like you're doing all your videos in one take. I'm like, I am. They're like, don't. They're like, just say what you can. Don't stop recording if you mess up. Just like kind of run it back and just stitch things together. And I was like, oh my god. Yeah. This is so much better. Um, and then it's actually funny because I haven't made a video since like four or five months ago. But recently I went to Oregon. They had the first annual, the first ever, I don't know what the correct term is. 00:35:51.000 --> 00:37:01.000 There was a Mariana's Festival in Fair, Fairview, Oregon. And I went there and there's another Chamorro social, um, like social media person who doesn't make language content necessarily. It's like, not the focus, but she's trying to incorporate it. And she was like, we should go around and ask people stuff. I'll ask in English, you ask, you want, and when I checked this morning, I think the video, the video's been up for like a week and it has like over a hundred thousand views. Wow. People are texting my mom and she's like, is this your son? Because it came up on my feed. You know, people are, people are texting my wife, they're like, is this your husband? Like, what? he popped up on my feed? You know? Or like my sister-in-law, she's like, oh my God, look what just popped up on my feed. You, you know? And I'm just like, wow. Um, and yeah, like, man, like practically every comment is like, wow, it's so cool to hear the language. Because at the festival I knew the, I knew like my friends who were there, who were speakers who were in the same classes as me, so I felt comfortable asking them, you know, I was like, yeah, like blah, blah, blah. And people were like, wow, these people, these kids, you know, they look at me and they're like, these kids know the language and Okay. 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:15.000 It, it's a very cool video. I actually watched it before our meeting today. It's really interesting. And I actually had a couple questions regarding the video. Mostly to do with kind of food and culture and how those two kind of intersect. You have mentioned that one of your favorite foods was apigigi'? 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Apigigi' 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.497 Apigigi'. And what is apigigi'? 00:37:21.497 --> 00:38:02.000 So it is a, it's a cooked dessert. So you get like coconut shreds. Well, I used coconut shreds. I don't know if some people use the shredded coconut. I'm not sure. Actually. I use coconut shreds. But you put that and then you have, um, we call it mendioka. It's, I think it's tapioca like the starch and stuff. Um, with some leche niyok , which is the coconut milk and sugar, you mix it all together, you slap it in, traditionally a banana leaf and then you wrap it up, close it, you grill it, and then you wait until it closes down and then you can eat it. 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.499 Sounds delicious! 00:38:03.499 --> 00:38:07.000 It is! Yeah. And it's not that many ingredients, you know, so it's like really easy. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.000 And the other dish that I heard mentioned was, um, Kelaguen? 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.000 Kelaguen. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.000 And it sounded like you could have kelaguen with multiple different kinds of protein? 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.000 Yes. 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:18.998 So what is kelaguen? 00:38:18.998 --> 00:39:18.000 Kelaguen is effectively, it's kind of like an escabeche. That's how we say it. I don't even know what the?...a ceviche? Okay. Um, I think technically the term comes from a Filipino word, kilawin. And their kilawin was, I wanna say more fish based. But yeah, you, you effectively take a protein and cook it in acid. Like that's really all it is. I think. I was actually taught recently that the traditional word before kelaguen was just, um, naynay. And I could see how that can fall out of use. Mm. Um, but technically that, yeah, that it's just cooking something in like acids. So the most popular one is kelaguen mannok or chicken kelaguen. You grill your meat, you chop it up, not too big, not too small. And then you get like, salt, lemon, add your decorations, like your green onions and stuff. 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:57.000 But effectively the salt also helps cook it. And it come and you serve it cold though, you know, so you, after you cook and everything, you mix everything. You don't serve it, you can eat it the same day. Growing up, my family always did it, and then we ate it the next day. Because it's a bit softer. The first and last time I made kelaguen katne, which is beef kelaguen. Um, I cut it too big. But yeah, it was just that. And then it was like lemon vinegar, soy sauce or something. So I forget all the ingredients I added. Put it in the fridge the next day we were eating it, you know, and I was like, I was like, is this really gonna cook it? And they're like, yes, chemistry, it's gonna work. I promise 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:05.000 That's great. And when you prepare food, is it a communal thing or is it a single chef preparing meals for everyone? 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:50.000 You know, growing up it was definitely a communal thing. At least when it came to, I mean, especially when it came to the Fiesta, you're doing a lot of things. You know, at the Guam Club, they have an outdoor kitchen, or they had, I haven't been there in a while, like the kitchen area, but I remember they had a table that was really just like a cutting board. The, the whole table was like a cutting board. And yeah, they would have people grilling, they'd bring the chicken over and you chop it up, you know, you're doing everything and then you pass it on to the next person. Each person kind of had a role, you know. You had people grilling, you had the people tearing the meat off the bone, then you had the people cutting, then you had the people mixing, you know, and then you had the people like, um, setting it aside, preparing it and stuff. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:41:44.000 When I, the last, the first and last time, no, no, no. It wasn't the first last time I made apigigi' I did it for the language immersion program we did here. Prugraman Sinipok. And I taught the class. And so like, that was a communal thing. We had everybody make it. I was worried at first 'cause like, oh, they're not gonna all be the same. But I think it gave it a kind of like, nice little style. It's like, oh, some people made it this way. Some people made 'em real small. Some people made 'em big , you know. And, and I remember when we brought it to the, the following day, there was a picnic for the Guam Liberation. And I brought it and people were so surprised. They were like, nobody ever does this. And in my mind I was like, what? This is the easiest thing to make . And so now it's like something I want to do, kind of a tradition. Like I almost wanna start in my family now. Maybe with just me first, like, oh, I think I can show you how to make it if you like it. Um, so traditionally I would say very communal thing. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:58.359 And you mentioned your family and bringing the Chamorro culture into your family and making it a part of your own family. Do you speak Chamorro to your children? 00:41:58.359 --> 00:42:50.000 So I try to with our 4-year-old, gonna be five in October. I try to as much as I can with him because he is more cognizant and more responsive. It can be hard, but I know he's getting it. With our baby. I only speak Chamorro to the baby. Sometimes I'll say things to my mom in Chamorro because I know she understands. Not so much with my dad though, because I know his understanding is less. And so I guess it would depend on what it is. Like, if it's like, I'm like, oh, where's mom? I'll say that, you know. But with my mom, I can say like, oh, are you gonna go outside because if you are, can you do this? You know, like longer thoughts. My wife picks up the things I say to the kids. So she knows those words, but I don't talk to her in Chamorro. 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 Okay. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.000 And my sister lives with us. She said she wants to learn. She's waiting for me to start teaching 00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.000 So you gotta get on it. . 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.994 Yeah, gotta get on it. 00:43:02.994 --> 00:43:09.000 Has your wife or your father or mother, have they shown more interest now that you are so into the language? 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:23.000 Yes. My mom, especially now that I only speak Chamorro to this baby. And so within the last four months I've heard more Chamorro come out of my mom's mouth than the last two or three years we've lived together. Which is something, you know. 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000 That's wonderful. 00:43:24.000 --> 00:44:01.843 Yeah. Even if it's funny little things like, did you poop? Or why are you stinky? Let's change your diaper. But because it's the only way I communicate with this baby, I think it makes my mom want to. And my dad will say words like, you're stinky, you know, or you pooped, you threw up. You know, very short things. But definitely again, like the most Chamorro I've ever heard, leave his mouth, you know? Um, yeah. 00:44:01.843 --> 00:44:09.000 That's great! And, you mentioned the Prugraman Sinipok and that's a cultural immersion program. For two weeks or so outta the year, they take students from all over and immerse them in the Chamorro cultural and language. 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:09.500 Yes. 00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:11.995 And how did that start? 00:44:11.995 --> 00:45:35.000 So this was the third year. This was the first year I helped though. It started through someone else. Uh, her name is June Pangelinan. She lives in like the Bay Area (near San Francisco, CA). Or near there, I would say. But she, it, it was like her thing. She was also a student of Miget's and was like, I think we should, I think we should do a language immersion program. You know, and Miget was just like, if you plan it, I'll do it. You know, 'cause Miget is always down, but in, in the same way. For me, it's like, I'm always down, but I don't want to plan. Like, if you tell me what I can do or give me a spot, I will fulfill that role for however long. I'm just not good at planning though. But yeah. So it was, it was June's like, whole vision. You know, she linked up with Miget and the first two years they actually did it on Guam. And like, so yeah, like that first year I tried to go. It, it didn't work out for me 'cause I was actually in the middle of switching jobs. So when the program was happening, that's when I was going to join Apple. And so it didn't line up. I tried to, I tried to make it line up. I was like, no, okay, I'll leave work, go to Guam, come back, start working. 00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.495 Just didn't quite line up. 00:45:37.495 --> 00:45:38.495 Yeah, exactly. 00:45:38.495 --> 00:45:45.000 And how many students in general have you seen the program grow over the last three years? Or has it stayed kind of the same core group of students? 00:45:45.000 --> 00:46:29.000 It's stayed the same number of students. I would say. Like no more than 20, maybe especially the first two years. Because they had to fly to Guam and then pay for the program and then probably get housing if they didn't have family or know anybody out there. Out here, it was less of a, I would say a burden, but maybe less of a interest for some people. Because from my understanding, from what I was told the first two years, I would say we're definitely more culturally focused. Not as much language. This year, there was a lot of language, but we didn't have as much culture. We definitely had culture and they definitely had language, but the offset was there for sure. 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:34.000 Because it was harder to do here in San Diego. Couldn't go to the same Island towns? 00:46:34.000 --> 00:47:04.000 Yeah. I, we had a Liberation picnic at Balboa Park. They have a house of Chamorros, which is like amazing within itself because usually it's relegated for countries. Right. and then the Guam Club. And then we have local folks whose parents are still alive. And so like, there was a day where we went out, we went down to Chula Vista and, you know, tried to get with them and hear the language come from them. 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:12.000 Very cool. Is it, is it common that elders will want to participate in the program? 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:54.000 I would say not common. Definitely not common. We have some elders. We have some elders in the classes that Miget teaches because for them they're like, oh, I know the language, but I don't know how to read it. You know, or I don't know how to write it. So that's what they join for, but they speak the language mm-hmm. So it's like a big benefit to the other students who join. 'cause they could hear it come fluently. But then, and it's always funny too. Yeah. 'cause when I started communicating with, with these folks and when they would write stuff, I'm like, they're literally writing it the way they say it. And to me, that was amazing. You know, it's like, oh, I wasn't sick. 00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:15.000 But yeah,it was really hard. This wasn't my job and I'm thankful it wasn't my job. It was my friend, Clarissa Mangiola, I call her mames, which just means sweet. Reese, it was, it was, it was her job to find folks who would want to participate. And from what she told me, it was really hard. Yeah. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Why do you think that is? 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:49.000 There's, I think this goes back to maybe the trauma part where some folks might not see use in the language. A lot of times they don't feel qualified to teach us. And I, I think it's part of the approach of the way we approach them, where it's like, can you teach these kids what you know? Or can, you know, impress upon them your knowledge or whatever. And they feel like, well, oh, they don't want to hear me speak because I don't speak like academically or I don't speak professionally. 00:48:49.000 --> 00:49:45.000 I don't speak eloquently. You know, which is to me always been funny because that's not the Chamorro I've ever wanted to learn. Like, I didn't want to learn like a city academic, Chamorro, you know, I wanted to hear the way my grandparents spoke, specifically my mom's mom. When I think back, my dad's mom did kind of feel, she definitely had an accent and stuff, but it definitely felt more proper. And where, and the village she's from is like the capital of Guam, you know? So it's like, very much surrounded by the like American culture, but where my mom's mom is from, considered the south and very much different. You know, more rural, you know, country living, so to speak. And so that, that's when I actually started learning the language. She, my mom's mom is who I picked to model my speak chapter. 00:49:45.000 --> 00:50:04.000 And my aunties are like, that's not how mom sounded, you know. But it's gotten me a lot of compliments from elders. They're like, wow, you're good. Like, where did you learn to speak? You know? I'm like, memory really? Because I don't have any audio recordings or anything of my grandmother. Just kind of what's embedded in me. 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.000 Were you able to speak more with your grandmother while she was here? 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:36.000 No. So I didn't start learning until 2020. My dad's mom passed in, 2009, 2010. And then my mom's mom passed in 2012. And so yeah, I did not. The closest I would say is my mom's sister. She's still around, thankfully. And every time I get the chance I talk to her in Chamorro. 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:44.397 If you could have a conversation with your mom's mom, what would you like to talk about? 00:50:44.397 --> 00:51:30.000 Wow. That's a good question. I would probably, I would ask her about her childhood and just start from there. Because there's, when we started learning the language, when Miget started teaching the language, he told everyone, if you have speakers in your family, talk to them. He's like, don't ask them about the war. Do not ask them about the war. You know, he was always very, you know, because it's definitely not something they like to talk about, you know? Um, but I would definitely just be like, where did you actually grow up? 'cause I don't know if she grew up in Yona, it's the village. She repped and claimed, but I don't know if she like spent her childhood there. I would ask her what she remembers about her grandparents or her parents. What her favorite foods were, what her most annoying chores were. 00:51:30.000 --> 00:52:16.000 Things like, what did you do for fun? You know? 'cause that's like another thing that I came to realize was, something that kind of skipped--it would come into this language barrier where the things, as I've talked to other elders, I asked them what they used to do for fun. It's like stuff I wouldn't consider fun. It's like, not stuff I thought they would say. You know, like I had an elder tell me, oh, when we were cleaning, we would race to see who could clean certain-- a board of the house faster. You know, they would like, okay, these are my two boards. These are your two boards and we'll race. And the reason it was fun though, is because for scrubbers, they would literally use coconut shells, you know, the really husky ones and they would just like scrub it. 00:52:16.000 --> 00:53:03.000 They're like, whoever can do it first, you know, wins. And he told me that and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I could see how that could be fun if you're doing it with your siblings. You know, your friends. And so I definitely would like to know what my grandmas liked doing for fun, what her favorite foods were. 'cause they're definitely, I would assume different, you know? 'cause even something like kelaguen mannok, I wouldn't even consider that like an everyday meal because it takes so much labor. It's not, it's definitely not something you're doing all the time. You know, we have like soups for that, you know. If she remembers what kind of music. As I've learned, as I've delve deeper into the language, I've become more aware of cultural things. I'd probably ask her that. I'd ask her if there were any talageros who's in her family, which are like the fisher people who go out and throw the nets. 00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:39.000 If any of her family sang. Kantan Chamorrita, which is like a, it's like a free verse style singing, which I've come to been told is some folks used to communicate like that. Like just through singing they would say the language, they'd be singing what they're doing. And then if the other person knows the tune, they do it back. You know, some kantan chamorritas are meant for competition. Some of 'em are meant to be endearing. Some of 'em are meant to be wooing someone, you know. So I definitely would ask her like very specific her things, maybe village things. But then definitely would like, I'd be interested about the culture, 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:45.000 That would be a very cool way to communicate with somebody in kind of a song. Call and repeat kind of thing. 00:53:45.000 --> 00:54:33.000 Yeah. When I went to Oregon, actually, when I was hanging out, I went there with two of my-- I went there to visit two of my friends, they live there. They're speakers. They're like, I would consider them my teachers now, you know? And we were out in the city, we were like walking back from dinner or something, and my friend just starts going with a tune, like, you know. And he was like and then he looked at me and I was like, oh, shoot, okay. I was like, you're not done with your verse, but I'll go, you know . And we just, we did that for a good couple of blocks and I was actually surprised. I was like, wow. Like I was able to do that, you know? 00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.000 I was like, sometimes they didn't make sense, but-- 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:48.000 You just stuck with it and you were right there in the, the melody and verse.--and I know we're running out of time here, but did you have anything that you wanted to talk about or anything that you wanted to say? 00:54:48.000 --> 00:55:51.000 I don't know if I have anything specific. Just that I'm very grateful that I'm able to learn the language because I've had tremendous support from my family, from my friends, from my wife, my kids, you know. I know people who struggle to find the time, you know, struggle to fit it within the typical schedules, right? Like Miget's class used to be Fridays at 4:00 PM until-- 4:00 PM or 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM all the way up until 7:00 PM. And then, once November rolls around. We do daylight saving times. Guam doesn't. And so it's like 3:00 PM--, you know, now though, it's Saturday in the States 'cause he does 'em on Sunday, so it'll probably be a little bit easier. But, I just know so many people. There's people who we started in the same classes 2020 January. Right. And I'm so far ahead of them. 00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:53.000 It's, and I don't know if that's a testament to just how deep I went or also how much time I've been able to give because, yeah, like, at the festival I ran into someone and I was, we've been in classes for years and I was, I didn't have a good grasp of how fluent they were, but when I saw 'em, I was so excited. I hugged them really tight and I was like, oh my God. And then I just started going, you know, and she was just like, you're so fluent now. What happened? You know? And so, yeah, like honestly, I'm just incredibly grateful that I've been able to learn as much as I can. And actually recently, well not even recently, it's been since December, I have another teacher who's teaching me stuff too. I would say like deeper context of things because as much as I love Miget's class, there was a point where he has to start over. 00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:25.000 You know, it's like college for him. Gotta start over, gotta start over. And so there came to a certain point where I was like, shoot, I need more. You know? 'cause I definitely don't think staying in his classes forever will benefit you as much as getting the taste. It's like college, getting the taste and then going on. And so I'm just happy that I was able to find other people who also want to go deeper into the language, learn as much as we can. We found a teacher and so, I mean, that's really it. I'm just incredibly grateful. 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:31.000 That's awesome. We're very grateful for you coming out here and spending the time and giving this interview. So I just wanna say thank you very much. 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.545 Yeah, of course. Thank you. 00:57:33.545 --> 00:57:38.545 Alright., take this. We were an hour on the dot. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials&#13 ; from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. Description An account of the resource David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-083 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Folk music;songwriter;counterculture;Woody Guthrie OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. SC027-086 02:06:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Folk music ; songwriter ; counterculture ; Woody Guthrie Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1f874004b7ad7b916e612b2588ed3fb1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 56 Early childhood and musical beginnings Rafael talks about how he become involved with playing music through public school music programs. He started as a drummer and began playing in a cover band at an early age. music education ; drummer ; Everly Brothers ; The Beatles 0 397 Adolescence and folk music influence Rafael discusses how folk music began to become popular in 1960 and how it began to influence his musical tastes. He acquires his first guitar, learns to play and performs in hootanannies. Kingston Trio ; guitar ; solo artist ; Hawaii ; Joan Baez ; Bob Dylan ; hootananny ; Woodie Guthrie 0 1421 Influence of political assassinations and discrimination on development of political leanings Rafael reflects on turbulent times during high school including several political assassinations and how they affected him. His Jewish family experienced discrimination through redlining. political assassination ; Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; John Fitzgerald Kennedy ; Robert F. Kennedy ; Covina ; West Covina ; Jewish ; redlining ; John Birch Society 0 2236 The Vietnam War The Vietnam War begins, and Rafael discusses having to register for the draft. He attended college for one year and re-connects with his future wife, Lauren, at this time. draft ; anti-war ; college ; California State University Fullerton ; conscientious objector 0 3098 Move to Oregon Rafael talks about moving to Oregon, joining the counterculture movement, and getting arrested for drugs after an undercover operation. counterculture movement ; Oregon ; drugs ; arrest 0 4886 Move to Escondido and birth of first child After the loss of Rafael's father, he and he wife move to Escondido to help tend his family's avocado orchard. Soon after, their first child, Jamaica, was born. Escondido ; avocado orchard ; first child ; Jamaica ; natural childbirth ; grove service 0 5483 Making headway with music career Rafael discusses the development of his music career in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase is a key highlight of this development. During this time he forms a duo with Rosie Flores. Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase ; Colin Young Band ; Goldmine ; Rosie Flores 0 6807 Opening act for Rick Danko and subsequent connections and successes Having moved back to North San Diego County, Joel recounts his big break in opening for Rick Danko and the subsequent pattern of becoming an opening act for many successful bands. Rick Danko ; promoter 0 7180 Becoming knowledgeable about Woody Guthrie Rafael begins to research Woody Guthrie and the people he had influenced. He learned a number of Woody Guthrie songs. Woody Guthrie ; Bob Dylan ; Harold Leventhal 0 Oral history Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is August 20th, 2025. This interview is taking place at Joel Rafael's studio at his home in Escondido, California, which is on the unceded territory of Luiseño/Payómkawichum people. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.094 You're welcome. 00:00:29.094 --> 00:00:33.725 Alright, so let's start off with the early years. When and where were you born? 00:00:33.725 --> 00:00:39.234 I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1949, May 11th. 00:00:39.234 --> 00:00:56.274 Okay. So you've been writing and performing for over fifty years beginning in the sixth grade. So how did it come to be that you were performing at such a young age, and how did you learn to play music and-- 00:00:56.274 --> 00:06:26.115 Well, I grew up in California 'cause my parents moved us out here to the Los Angeles County area in, when I was about three years old. So I guess probably 1952. And the California school districts had a really great music programs in those days. And so I was fortunate for the whole time that I was in school up through high school there was an excellent music program in every school that I was in. So it was probably about the fourth grade a music director came around to our classroom and basically, you know, Who wants to be in the band? And handed out, I guess some kind of a permission slip. And I jumped on that right away. I already was a music lover just from playing phonograph records at home. I think I mentioned this to you before, but I was a latchkey kid before the term was invented. So, in my early elementary school days when I would get home from school, I literally had a key on a shoe string to open my door because my parents were both at work. And I would fill my time with--a lot of my time with--going through my parents' records and just exploring the music they had. So that's how my love for music first started. And then, and of course, I had a little phonograph myself with a lot of children's records and children's music and that kind of thing. But I started playing music in the fourth grade, beginning band. I started out as a drummer. I had already taken some accordion lessons because my brother, who's two years older than me was taking accordion lessons. And that was kind of the mode, you know, everything my brother did then my parents would have me do that later. And so he was playing accordion so then I was playing accordion. But I started out on this small little twelve bass accordion and progressed pretty quickly. But unfortunately, I was pretty small in stature. And so when it was time for me to move on to the bigger accordion, it was really just, it was too much to handle. So that was the end of my accordion lessons. And then it was shortly after that, that this band thing happened at school, and I decided I would play the drums, which in beginning band meant the snare drum. So that was kind of how I started out, just playing the beats on the snare drum. And at a certain point, I really wanted a drum kit. And at some point, I guess it was probably around the fifth or sixth grade--probably around the fifth grade--I was able to coerce my dad into going to a music store. I think it was in Pomona, California. And we bought a used, really put together drum set and moved that into my bedroom. And then I started to bring some of my school friends over on the weekends. My mom would take me over, we would pick up a couple of friends and bring 'em to my house. And one of 'em played the trumpet and one of 'em played the clarinet, also beginning band members. And we worked out some very simple tunes. That was kind of my first combo. And by the time I got into junior high school, a better drum kit was required. And somehow I managed to get my dad to buy that for me. And I guess my second band was a surf band in a friend's garage in the town I lived in. I would ride my bike over there. My drums were parked in the garage at his house. Robbie Brandon was his name. And he had a friend named Lynn Lewis. And they--one of them played--Robbie played guitar, electric guitar, and Lynn played bass. So it was a three-piece band. And we basically played surf band covers--a few Everly Brothers songs that required singing, and neither of them sang. So we bought a boom microphone, and I was a singing drummer. As a drummer going into high school, I started playing a, well, I guess you'd call it a cover band. We were playing the, basically the songs that were on the radio at that time. And that was about the time that The Beatles became prevalent in the years of the U.S. And we were playing some Beatles songs and Rolling Stones songs and stuff like that. School dances, sock hops. Back in those days, they didn't have DJs. We always had live bands. And so I was one of those lucky kids that was in one of those bands. And that was a great experience as a kid. It was--really felt unique to be in a musical group. So let's see, should I continue on the musical path? Am I jumping the gun here? 00:06:26.115 --> 00:06:31.110 Well, no, I think we're gonna' get into it more. 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:33.435 Okay. I was just kind of tracing my musical-- 00:06:33.435 --> 00:06:35.245 Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:35.245 --> 00:16:42.325 --progress. From there, folk music became, started to become popular probably around 1959, 1960. And, they call it the Folk Scare of the Sixties. And I think that's because no one ever thought that folk music would be played on the radio, and some of the stuff that was played on the radio was the more commercial kind of folk stuff, like the Kingston Trio. And John Denver, I guess, was probably around that time. Chad Mitchell Trio. I think John Denver was in the Chad Mitchell Trio before he was a solo artist. So those were the songs I was listening to. I remember Joan Baez had a hit with a Phil Ochs song called, There but for Fortune, that really intrigued me. And I just felt the necessity to, at that point, to kind of step away from the drum kit and learn how to play the guitar so that I could be up front singing the songs. And so I talked my parents into going to, down to Tijuana during the summer, probably the summer of '61, maybe. And we bought a very inexpensive guitar in Tijuana. I think it was about 30, 35 dollars. And that's what I learned to play the guitar on. I had a couple of friends that were--they had, there were about four of 'em, school friends, that had put together a little group, and they were doing mostly Kingston Trio songs. And I went up to play with them when they had their rehearsals, a couple of times. Just enough to learn a few chords and a couple songs. And then I was on my own. I was a solo artist from then on. I'm not sure why, but I just decided I was gonna' do my own thing. And so I started learning songs and getting better on the guitar. Around 1960--probably the summer of 1963--might have been--it was either '63 or '64. Might have been '64. Anyways, one of those two years. My dad decided to take my family on a family vacation for the summer to Hawaii. Hawaii had just become a state like a few years earlier. And he was curious about it, and we were curious about it. So we took a trip there, and we went to a few different islands, I think three different islands. And the third island we went to was, was the island of Kauai, which was very undeveloped at the time. And so we landed in Kauai, and we stayed at a place called the Hanalei Plantation, which is still there. It's a resort hotel that was originally a sugar plantation. And at the time, I think it was the only like sort of resort or hotel to stay at on the island of Kauai. It was just, there just wasn't much there. So we checked into our rooms, and right after we got into our rooms, my parents got a phone call from a guy who had just checked in and had noticed that my parents were from the same town, Covina, California. And he invited my parents and me and my brother to come down to the little restaurant bar area at the hotel and have a drink. So we went down there to meet this guy. And this is kind of an anecdotal story, but I think it's an important one. So when we met him, he was very much like a John Wayne kind of character, big cowboy kind of dude. He'd already had a few drinks, so he was obviously a drinker. He started telling us his story. And he had told us that he was one of the original models for the Marlboro Man posters with the cowboy and the horse that you'd see along the highways at that time. And he was a stunt man, had been in the Marine Corps. He told us that he had--that they had filmed Mister Roberts there at Kauai. And they had done a lot of filming at Hanalei. And that was one of the reasons he came back there 'cause he was familiar with it. But when they did that movie, he was the guy that drove the motorcycle off the pier in the scene where the sailors get liberty and they get off the ship. And then they're celebrating, this one guy drives a motorcycle off the pier into the ocean. And it was this guy, Jack Lewis. And he told us that he was there, that he was partners with a guy in Covina that owned a magazine called Gun World, which, you know, back in the early sixties, it was a just a, an NRA type magazine, but not the NRA as the NRA is today. It was more about hunting and gun safety and the newest rifles and firearms that were on the market or whatever. And so he said, yeah, he was there to take a helicopter flight the next day into some uncharted areas of Kauai to take some photographs of this rifle that he had. And it was like a .38 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight on--like big hunting gun. And he looked at my brother and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And my brother said, No. And so he looked at me and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And I said, Yeah. And my dad said, no, no, no, no, he can't go. He's too young. You know, I think I was fifteen and--just had turned fifteen. And this guy goes, oh, please sir, let your son go. This will be the adventure of a lifetime. I'm not gonna' be flying the helicopter. I've chartered a pilot and a photographer, and there's four seats, so there's an extra seat in the helicopter, and you should really let your son go. This will be like a once in a lifetime experience. And my dad relented and said, okay. So next morning we go down, and there was a place where a helicopter could land at Hanalei. We walked down there and met him, and then the helicopter came in and landed, and we got in the helicopter, and we flew out over these just amazingly scenic places on the island of Kauai. And landed about three different times where this guy Jack got out and walked a hundred yards away from the helicopter and fired a couple shots and walked back towards the helicopter with the gun. And we did that about three or four times. And I think due to his alcoholic nature, he was pretty exhausted by the time we got back in the helicopter to fly back to the resort. And on the way back, he said you know, he complimented me. He said, boy, we really worked our, you know, off today. Um, you know, kid, thank you. You really helped me out. You know, he's just giving me all this hot air. And so on the way back, he says to me, How do you like this gun kid? And I, you know, I'm fifteen years old, you know, 19-early sixties, and I said, oh, you know, I love the gun. It's awesome. I don't even know what I said, but that was my, what I implied to him is that I really thought it was great. So he says, It's yours. So, you know, I'm fifteen, right? So we get off the plane and I'm carrying this rifle in a leather case, walking toward my dad, who really did not like guns at all. He was a World War II Veteran. He had been in the invasion of North Africa, and he'd seen plenty of violence that he never talked about it, but it was obvious from the way he felt about guns, even at that time in my life. And so he goes, what are you doing with that? And I go, Jack gave it to me, You know, I'm all excited. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, you don't. Well, this guy, Jack, you know, right away started again on my dad. Oh, sir, you gotta' let him keep it. He told me that you, you have a guy that works for you that goes hunting sometimes, you know, let him keep, let him keep the rifle. He was so great today. He helped me out so much. Just all this BS. And my dad relented. This was like '64. And so after we finished our trip, we flew back to Maui, I think it was, and then back to Oahu with the gun. Checked the gun and the ammunition, flew home with it, you know, it was a different time. Security was not what it is today. Flew home with a gun. The gun went in the closet, the ammo got locked away somewhere. And a month or so later, school started. And I was talking to a friend at school who lived with his dad, single parent, and they went hunting quite a bit. I told him about this gun. He really wanted to see it. And so I brought him home one day after school, and we got it out of the closet, and he looked at it. A couple days later, he called my house and said that he would really like to buy the gun from me. And he offered me $125 for the gun. So I had my eye on this guitar, down with a Covina music store. It was a G-10 Goya Swedish-made classical guitar that was real nice little guitar. And so he paid me the $125. And I went down to that store, and I bought that guitar. And I've never owned a gun since then. So I like to say my gun--my guitar is my gun, and my songs are my bullets. 00:16:42.325 --> 00:16:48.436 Mm. That's profound. So-- 00:16:48.436 --> 00:16:53.529 --that was my start playing guitar. 00:16:53.529 --> 00:17:07.025 Yeah. So can you tell me about the people or music--and you mentioned this a little bit--that influenced you at this young age, and as you moved into performing? 00:17:07.025 --> 00:21:23.755 Pretty much anything that I ran across that was like considered folk music at that time. The schools, it was all of a sudden folk music was sort of happening. It was the sixties folk movement. And the high schools were having what they called hootenannies, sort of like what you called open stages today. But they called it hootenannies, which was a term that was coined by Pete Seeger, when people would get together and share songs. And so we'd have these hootenannies, and they would be like talent contests at the various high schools. There were three high schools in our area. And so I started entering those contests after I'd learned a few songs. And wasn't really writing much at that time. I was just mostly just playing songs. So I was playing songs that were by Joan Baez, the Kingston Trio. There was a guy named Tim Morgan that was a local artist that had influenced me and another guy that I saw in Glendale. There was a lot of small clubs around at that time. Like, there was a club in Balboa Peninsula in Newport Beach area called The Prison of Socrates. And it's still there, but it's like a pizza parlor now. But it was a coffee house that had folk music, like three, four nights a week there. And there was another one in Seal Beach called the Cosmos. And, of course, there was the Troubadour in Los Angeles and the Ice House in Pasadena. There was a second Ice House in Glendale. So they all had open stages. So after I kind of perfected my beginning act with a guitar, I was hitting those open stages and the hootenanny contest at the high school, and I did really well. I was, I would win the first or second place at the hootenannies. And I was able to get on those open stages. And that's kind of where I cut my teeth as a performer, as a young person. So my influences were basically just the songs I was playing, like Richie Havens was an influence. I had a record of his that had a couple of folks songs on it. One was called, Hey, Nelly. Nelly, that I liked to sing. I think that was written by Shel Silverstein. I started to pay attention to writers a little bit. I knew that the song that Joan was doing, Joan Baez was doing, There but for Fortune, was a Phil Ochs song. I heard about Bob Dylan, but I didn't know too much about him. My next door neighbor, who was a couple years older than me, had a Bob Dylan album that she had bought, and she didn't really care for it that much, so she gave it to me 'cause I was curious, And it was, I think it was Bob Dylan's probably his third album. You know, it took me like three albums to actually hear Bob Dylan. It was Another Side of Bob Dylan was the album. And at the first listening, it just like, really took me back. Whoa, that's just so different. You know? It was just I won't say it was repelling or bad, like some people have said. It was just different, you know, it was just so different the way he was using his voice and the barrage of words in the songs. So I picked a couple of songs off of that record that I learned how to play. So he was an influence. Woody Guthrie was an influence, but I didn't really realize it because Woody died the year I graduated from high school, and he was hospitalized for, I think for maybe close to fourteen years before he died. He was institutionalized with Huntington's Disease. And so his songs were around, you know, This Land Is Your Land and This Train (is Bound for Glory), and John Henry, and a few others that were kind of in the popular repertoire that these other groups were doing. So I was hearing groups do some Woody Guthrie songs. So they were, in that sense, some of the first songs I learned how to play, ironically. So that was kind of my high school experience, you know? And so I guess we could pick it up from there. I'm not-- 00:21:23.755 --> 00:21:26.924 Yeah. When did you start writing music? 00:21:26.924 --> 00:21:29.394 I actually wrote probably my first couple of songs-- 00:21:29.394 --> 00:21:32.781 Well, and I guess, how did you learn, that's-- 00:21:32.781 --> 00:29:30.000 Yeah. Well, I don't know. I just, it was just something that I felt I could do. I was listening to songs and deciding which songs I liked. You know, there were songs that stood out and caught me up that I wanted to learn. Some of 'em were too complex for me to learn. I wasn't, skilled enough to just to discern that they were a simple song. But they, by virtue of being in a different key, it was like I could only play in a couple of keys. I had a capo, but I didn't really understand key transitions. I didn't understand that if you put a capo on the second fret of your guitar and play a G, it's actually an A, you know? So you got the whole circle of keys working up the neck of the guitar. And I understood that if I needed the song to be higher, I would move the capo up. If I needed it to be lower, I would move it down or take it off the guitar. But I didn't really know what key I was playing in or understand the relationships between the chord, the chords that were in a certain key. That all kind of came later just from experience, I think. And you meet people along the way. Like I've always--David Amram is the one that said this best. And I've always tried to emulate what he said. He said, I always hang around--try to hang around with people that are smarter than me and more skilled than me because that's how you learn to get better. You know, you don't want to be hanging around with people that--you don't wanna always be the best person there because then you don't ever learn anything. So I try to surround myself with people that know more than I know and are better players than I am, better songwriters than I am, because that's how you improve and develop. And I think that's good advice for anything that, any endeavor. So, let's see, where was I? So in high school, that was a very turbulent time for me. I don't know if that's our next category or not, but as I moved into high school, there was a lot going on. My freshman year in high school, John Kennedy was assassinated, A few years later, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were assassinated, and Malcolm X was assassinated. So this all happened in my youth. And, but these things, these killings of political figures, it was something that was, in my consciousness, was a historical thing. Like Lincoln had been assassinated, and that seemed like to me, as a teenager, seemed like a really long time ago. So, I guess I should mention. So, when I went into high school, I experienced every new school in my area. Okay. So, like in elementary school, I started off in a school called Barranca School. I went there for a year. And then they transferred me over to a new school in West Covina called the Vine School. After two years or three years at the Vine School, they split the districts into West Covina and Covina districts. And I was in the Covina District. So then I went to the new elementary school in the sixth grade, which was a brand new school. So like, no trees, no landscaping, just concrete and pavement and dirt. And so then when I went to junior high school, I went to the established junior high school for one year, my seventh grade year. But in eighth grade, they had built a new junior high school, and they fed that with the two established junior high schools from--depending on where you lived, were fed into that third junior high school. So that was my third new school--no trees, no landscaping, dirt, concrete and pavement. And that was the Sierra Vista Junior High School. And then I went back over to Covina High School, which was the established high school for my freshman year, but they had incorporated--that year they took away one of the junior highs, which was the first junior I'd gone to in seventh grade. That became the campus for most of the freshman classes. But there were some classes, depending on what your curriculum was that you would cross the street over to the high school, to Covina High School. So I was on my way, probably about ten in the morning--I don't, maybe it was eleven in the morning on my way from the junior high school campus--the freshman campus--to the high school campus to go to my French class, first year French. And somebody ran by me and said, President Kennedy's been shot. And I was just like, What? You know, I just made my way to my class and my teacher was crying, and everybody, we found out about it, and it was just like, it was so devastating. It's hard to explain how devastating that was. Because these kind of events we take for granted now. They happen so frequently. We hear about people being killed, or mass shootings, or we hear about even political leaders being killed, heads of corporations being targeted. And it's just like the news of the day. But like when I was, I guess I was thirteen, to have somebody run by and say, the President's been shot. That was shocking, you know? And, and I remember they ended school day that day--within about an hour they ended the school day. And by the time I got home, he was pronounced dead. And I just remember that the silence. There was this silence everywhere. We went up to get something to eat at a restaurant, and there were some other people there, but it was just completely silent and somber. So that was a very emotional experience, and I think it, in some ways, it set a tone for the rest of my experience as a kid. A lot of questions. So then, after my freshman year in high school, there was a new high school near my house. So I went to the new high school as a sophomore. And that was the year that--the summer before my sophomore year was the year that I received that rifle and swapped it for the guitar. So, as a sophomore in high school, I was starting to play the guitar quite a bit and be known kind of as a folk singer. Let's see. (Tear in my eye, sorry.) So, let's see. Moving on through high school. I was politically oriented by the time I got into high school when we had moved to the town of Covina. I guess I should back up. When we first moved to California, we lived with one of my aunts and uncles, my dad's sister, for a few months before we got our own place in La Canada, which is near Pasadena. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.000 Beautiful. 00:29:31.000 --> 00:37:00.704 Yeah. And it was pretty rural at that time outside of Pasadena. My dad had a business in Pasadena--a screen door company. We lived there for about three years. And then we moved to Covina. I didn't know until just a couple years ago--we actually lived in West Covina--even though we were right on the edge of Covina, my dad's business was in Covina, I was in the Covina School District. Even though we were in West Covina, technically. And the reason we were in West Covina--I found out later--was because there was a red line in Covina, and if you were Jewish, you couldn't buy a home in Covina. And some--my dad, we were Jewish and not religious, but just happened to be Jewish. And Covina was an area where there just, there wasn't really any any sign of other Jews around. It was pretty much, you were really in the minority. I mean, you were already in the minority, but I mean, when you moved, when we moved to Covina, there weren't any synagogues or temples, not really a path to continue being religious in any way. We weren't really that religious anyways, I don't think. My dad's family was, I guess what you'd call reformed Jews, pretty liberal Jews. And so there was that sense of isolation a little bit. And I know that my dad he wanted to join the golf club and was turned down. Many years later when my dad had established himself as a community leader, they invited him to join, and he didn't. He turned them down. So, let's see. I had a political orientation because my dad ran for school board. There was a couple of propositions on the ballot when I was--you know, I wasn't voting or anything, but I was just in my parents' household. And I was exposed to the politics that they were experiencing. And at the time that that red line was not just for Jews, but it was also for Black people. And I think probably for Latinos. And there was a law that came up for repeal. It was called the Rumford Act (Rumford Fair Housing Act). And it was the repeal of the Rumford Act--I guess it allowed people to discriminate when selling their house. So if somebody came to buy your house and they were of a minority that you didn't approve of, then you could legally just say that it wasn't for sale anymore or whatever. So there was a repeal of that law that came up, and my dad got really got behind it--a repeal of the Rumford Act. So you couldn't, you could not discriminate anymore. And that passed. And as a kid, we drove around town in a van putting up stickers on telephone poles and anywhere we could put stickers for the No on whatever the proposition was. Fourteen. I can't remember. (It was Proposition 14.) So that was kind of my early political experience, standing up for something that was important to my dad turned out to be important to me, too, in the long run. Although I probably, as any kid, I was probably pretty much unaware of what the real issues were. But I remember the '60 presidential convention. It was on my television, like for the whole time it was on, and I--and that's when I first saw John Kennedy and was just completely taken up with his charisma as a kid. We see films now and stuff, but it's hard to, I think, to really grasp the experience of that time--how it affected the Baby Boomer youth. Anyways, so my dad ran for school board and because there were two seats open on the school board, and there was already two members of the school board that were members of the John Birch Society, which is--I like to describe as the embryo of the MAGA (Make America Great Again) movement. They were headquartered in a town called San Marino, and I dunno, they were ultraconservative, extremist organization--right-wing extremist organization. And my dad--there were also two people running for the two seats on the board that were also in the John Birch Society. So there would've been four members of the school board if they won, that were in the John Birch Society. And there were about maybe fifteen people running for those two seats. And it's a nonpartisan election. It's not a Democrat or Republican election. It's completely nonpartisan. But these John Birch Society members had made it into a partisan thing because they wanted to (reject) federal funding for schools and wanted to write their own local curriculum, a lot like what Oklahoma's doing right now and Florida and some other states. So he got together with a friend of his that was, just happened to be my pediatrician, and my dad was what you would call in those days moderate Democrat. And my pediatrician was a moderate Republican and explained the situation, and they decided that they would form a ticket. And then they invited all of the people that were running for the two seats except for the two members of the John Birch Society over to our house and had a meeting. And basically the end of the meeting was that everyone would drop out of the election and get behind my dad and and my doctor as a ticket to defeat extremists that were trying to take over the school board. And they won. And then my dad later became the president of the school board. So that had a very strong impact on me. Just the strategy of doing that and the way that they managed to win in that situation. That was probably when I was like a freshman or sophomore. So, let's see. Going on from there, what's the next thing on the list? 00:37:00.704 --> 00:37:05.215 Right. So obviously during that time of turmoil of the Vietnam War-- 00:37:05.215 --> 00:37:06.684 --okay. I was thinking that might be right. 00:37:06.684 --> 00:37:11.224 And so the question was how did the Vietnam War affect to your life path and music? 00:37:11.224 --> 00:37:16.625 Majorly. Majorly. 00:37:16.625 --> 01:00:48.764 I guess we started hearing about it when I was a sophomore, just hardly anything. And by the time I was a junior, we're hearing more about it. We didn't know where Vietnam was. Never had heard of Vietnam. I mean at that time, the world was a lot smaller place. It's like sixty years ago. By the time I was a senior, the reality that I was gonna' have to register for the draft on my eighteenth birthday just became more real to me. It wasn't something I really thought about that much, but approaching the age of eighteen, I knew that as soon as I was eighteen, I was required to register for the draft. And there wasn't a lottery or anything then. It was just, you just had to register for the draft. And then it was really more about your pre-induction physical and whether you were going to college, depending on whether you would get a deferment or what category you would be placed into. And I gotta' say, I didn't know anything about the war. I think maybe the bodies were just starting to come home, but we weren't seeing that much of that yet. But I knew it was a war, and I knew that some people that were drafted were being sent over there. And it was scary. It was scary to me 'cause I was already basically, I think, probably by influence of the songs and stuff that I had been learning, I was already pretty much decidedly anti-war. And I was never like a physically, like a fighter, you know? It just wasn't in my nature. And so the whole idea of it really scared me. And there was one teacher that I had that was a Navy veteran. And I don't know if I just went and talked to him or somehow, he ended up kind of counseling me about it. And he was just sort of really downplaying it, like most people don't get hurt when they're in the military. The percentage of people that are actually wounded and hurt is really low compared to the percentage of people that are in the military. And you have as much chance of being killed in an auto accident as you do of being wounded or killed in a war. I wasn't buying any of it, you know, I just wasn't buying it. And it didn't help me one bit, that conversation. So my birthday came around, I registered for the draft. I was planning to go to college, which I did. I think that was a tough road for me right then because my brother, who was two years older, had gone through this whole thing before me and was in college. He was like, I think he was a junior when I was gonna' be a freshman. And he picked a school to go do that was very expensive. And somehow my parents managed to come up with the money to put him through school at USC (University of Southern California). And then when it was my turn to go, I think they were just kind of--they had kind of done that and kind of burned up the budget, burned up the program, burned up the energy on it. It's a lot to get your kid into college. A lot of support system that's needed and hooking you up with the right information and the right kind of counseling. I didn't have good counseling at school.and my parents were just, I think they were just busy. And so I didn't get a lot of guidance about school. My grades were, they were good enough to get into college, but they were marginally good enough to get into college. I had a couple of subject areas that, I was like a C student and mostly Bs and a couple As maybe. So I applied to Cal State Fullerton. It was a new school, and it was close by. And it was convenient. It wasn't necessarily a school that I wanted to go to or that I--it was just, it was sort of the most convenient four-year school. And I applied there, and I got in. So I went to Cal State Fullerton for my freshman year. My first semester I did okay. But by the time my second semester rolled around, I was pretty deeply immersed in--well, I guess you'd call it counterculture transition. Really started probably in my senior year. There just started to be--I don't even know how it all started, the whole counterculture thing. Maybe it was because there was experimentation being done and articles being written and featured in papers and magazines about LSD and about increased cannabis use and the younger generation and the Sunset Strip and the hippies on the Sunset Strip. That would just, was all just happening right in front of me as I was about to leave high school, my senior year in high school. So probably towards the end of my senior year in high school, I started smoking pot with some friends. There weren't very many people that were doing it. Like in my school, there were probably, I could probably count on my hand the people in my high school that I knew that had also smoked pot. And the interesting thing about it was that the demographic of those seven to ten people crossed all social lines. And that hadn't happened to me before. When I was in high school, the social scene was a caste system. There were the poor kids, there were the Mexican kids that were like--the element of the Latino population that were more like the sort of the, I dunno' if they were in gangs, but just had that energy. They dressed differently. They were kind of like the greasers, you know? And then they were the soces (socials or socialites) that had a little bit more money, mostly college prep kids, that dressed a little nicer, you know? And I was kind of on the edge of that group, you know? And, but all of a sudden, people that I would never have talked to or never have known or interacted with were people that I had smoked pot with on the weekend. So at school, all of a sudden you're crossing those lines. You're walking to class and you encounter somebody that's not in your social group at all, and it's like, Hey, Tony! Hey Joel! And other people are going like, Well, how do you know him? It was, but it was very open. There was a--something about it that felt really good in that kind of opening of societal boundaries. And so the last, probably last semester of high school, was very much that kind of a atmosphere, where I was interacting with kids that I hadn't normally interacted with. (We're doing okay there.) And so that kind of set the tone for my college experience. So by my second semester of college, I had--through a guy who was one of my best friends in college and his brother--kind of found my way down to Laguna Beach, which was like, you know, Fullerton was, from where I lived, halfway to Laguna Beach already, And my best friend's brother was the same age as my brother. He was two years older. But they had immigrated here from Canada, like maybe around eighth grade, freshman year high school. So they were basically Canadians, but they were living here. And this Canadian kid, Don, he became my best friend. And his brother was not a soc. He was more, you know, they didn't have a lot of money, my friends. So him being a little older, was kind of in that poor kid, not gonna' be going to college.. perceived as tough and dangerous. They weren't, they were just kids like us, but that was the perception. So anyways, he ended up initially turning us on to marijuana. And it became kind of a regular thing for us, but it moved us away from alcohol. So--'cause a lot of us were drinking at parties and stuff like that, stuff that kids do sometimes in high school. I was definitely open to experimentation as a teenager. So that through him and some people he knew from Claremont that moved to Laguna Beach, I ended up spending the summer--a lot of my second semester and the summer after--in Laguna Beach. And by the time that the school year was rolling around again, I was also spending a lot of time in Los Angeles because there, that's where the open stages were and I was playing music on the Troubadour and the Ice House and the Ash Grove on their open stage nights. And then any other places I could play little coffee houses, that was all still kind of happening. And so I didn't go back to Cal State Fullerton. I decided I was going to enroll at LA City College, the community college in Los Angeles, which would satisfy my 2-S status with the draft. That was basically the reason I was gonna' continue school. I didn't have any academic goals at that point. My goal was to stay out the Army, stay out of the military. And continue hanging out with my counterculture friends. And playing music. And so I rented an apartment in Los Angeles. I got a job working at a liquor store on Sunset Boulevard called Turner Liquors, right on the Sunset Strip. And I was a delivery boy to the stars. So all these movie stars that lived up in the Hollywood Hills and Beverly Hills and everywhere would order their liquor from this place called Turner Liquor Store. And I was the delivery boy. So I met a lot of really interesting people during that time that I delivered liquor to from that store. I worked there for probably, I don't know, probably six months. I went to register at LA Community College. I was late. I went like the last day to register. The way I tell the story is I paid my, whatever it was, $65 or $70 registration fees, went around to pick my classes, which were pretty much--everything I wanted to take was filled. And, pretty much all that was left was like second year basket weaving, prerequisite required. So before the night was over, I went back to the office and just gave them everything back, and they gave me my money back. And I was out of school. Within a few months, I was 1-A with a draft. And that was in 1968. The end of 1968. So my parents were very concerned, like, You need to be in school. Why did you drop out of school? Now you're gonna', now you're a 1-A. You're gonna' get drafted. I said, I'm not gonna' go. My dad encouraged me to apply for a conscientious objector status. So I went through that process, and at the same time, my friends in Laguna--I just, I was hanging out there a lot. There were a lot of acid trips, other psychedelics--no hard drugs but just basically marijuana and mescalin and LSD, mind-expanding experiences with other people, like-minded people. And they had determined--because the police were starting to be very, more proactively enforcing against the counterculture. You know, anybody that looked like a hippie or had long hair or wore bell bottoms or a tie-dyed shirt, you were a target to the police. And in Southern California, it was particularly hostile in certain towns, more so than others. And a few of our friends that were like maybe a little older in the counterculture had moved up to Oregon, up to the Northwest. They were gonna'--in groups, communal groups, we were gonna buy property, find jobs up there and try to make a new life, a different value system. And the people that I was kind of hanging out with decided they were gonna' go to Oregon, and they really wanted me to go with them. And it was big decision time. I was in sort of in the middle of my conscientious objector application process. I had to apply, and then they set up a meeting or an interview with the draft board. Between the time that I applied, which was probably a few months until I got my interview, I was counseled by a guy, who was like a Quaker. He was the father of a friend of mine who, father of a person--who actually later became the guitar player in my, in the Joel Rafael Band--that we'd gone to school together and played a little bit of music together. But he, his, they were Quaker background, and he was counseling kids on the draft because they were pacifists and were encouraging kids that wanted to be conscientious objectors, trying to help them succeed at getting a conscientious objector status. It became known to me at that time that if you were Jewish, your chances of getting a CO were very slim just because you were Jewish, by reputation, I guess, I don't know--Jewish people were thought of as fighters. I don't know why, but it was just a fact that if you were a Jew, you could get a CO, but it wasn't likely. So I did everything I could with, through the counseling, to learn what I could to have a proper interview. And I went for my interview and within a month or two after my interview, they sent me a 1-A. Sorry, you're a 1-A. And so that was about the time that we moved up to Oregon, about twelve or thirteen of us, caravanned up there in a few different vehicles. We didn't have a place. We were just going to the home of some other people that we knew that had moved up there who said, Yeah, you can come and stay with us until you could find a place and get jobs and this kind of thing. And so we headed up there--I just kind of just put it behind me. I didn't care. I was 1-A, I didn't care. I, it was like, Screw the draft board, screw the military, screw the Vietnam War. I'm not going, I don't believe in any of that stuff. And other things are important to me. So I'm going with my friends to the Northwest, and we're gonna' somehow buy a piece of property, and we're all gonna' build our own houses on the property, and we're gonna' have our own community. This is kind of the dream. I see the counterculture people at that time in a couple of different categories. So there were the antiwar protestors. There were the, just the flat out druggies that just, you know, went down. And then the back-to-the-landers. And that was kind of my group. New value system, back to the Earth, all that stuff. And so that formed my value system. I think that, and I've freely admitted that I think that psychedelics had something to do with that. I have friends and for myself as well, you know, when people ask me, How did you become an artist? You know, how did you remain an artist? Sometimes it surprisingly it will start with, Well, when I was a young adult, I took some LSD. That sounds funny, but I mean, there's a truth to that. And now people are microdosing on some of these things, like people that you would never imagine would even try something like that. Or using it for like, mental health therapy and stuff. I think that the counterculture--us counterculture kids--actually pioneered some stuff that stuck. We didn't change the world like we thought we were going to, but we did help perpetrate some changes. So we got up there, and I was contacted--forwarded a letter from my parents saying you're 1-A. You need to be at your draft--at this address on this date for a pre-induction physical to determine if you're physically fit to be in the military. So I'm in Oregon, and I'm supposed to come down to California to go for a physical, and I'm just thinking like, I'm not gonna' get down there for that. And so somebody, I don't know if, how I thought of it, somebody must have said like, Well, why don't you write to your draft board and tell 'em you live in Oregon now? So I did that, and it took them a minimum of three months--it might have been longer, it might have been four months or five months--before they wrote me back and said, Okay, your draft board has now changed to Eugene, Oregon. And this is your pre-induction physical notice. So you're to go to the induction center in Eugene,--or maybe it was in Portland, I don't know where it was--for your pre-induction physical on such-and-such date. So I thought, well, I guess I'll just write them a letter and tell 'em I moved back to California, which I did, and they followed suit several months later, changed my draft board back to Pasadena and sent me another pre-induction physical notice. So then I wrote them another letter, and I told them that I've moved up to Washington state. And so a couple months later I got a letter that said, We've determined that you are avoiding your pre-induction physical. And so on such-and-such date, you are to go to any draft board anywhere and report for an induction physical. And if you're found to be physically fit, you'll be immediately inducted into the armed services. Well, we were living, at that point, we had separated from the group that we had moved up there with. And we were just like a couple and we had-- 01:00:48.764 --> 01:00:50.018 --so this is you-- 01:00:50.018 --> 01:00:51.157 me and Lauren. Yeah. 01:00:51.157 --> 01:00:52.525 And where did you meet? 01:00:52.525 --> 01:00:53.000 We met in high school. 01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:55.317 Okay. 01:00:55.317 --> 01:21:17.420 Yeah, Lauren and I met in high school. Just to backtrack a little bit. I guess it was my junior year. We were both in a play together. And my mother had been--who knew Lauren's mother through the PTA or something--had asked me a few different times, Do you know so-and-so's daughter? She's a year younger than you. Do you know her? I don't think so, but I was kind of wondering who she was. And then I realized that she was in the play. And so she was in the--we had like a multi-purpose room that was where we did our high school plays. And one day, we were there for a rehearsal right near the beginning of the play. And I walked up and introduced myself to her, and she knew who I was, and I offered her a ride home. I had a license at that point, I was a junior. And gave her a ride home, and we started dating, and we had a very up-and-down relationship for my junior and senior year. You know, we were boyfriend and girlfriend and then we broke up, and then we got back together, and then we broke up, and then we got back together. And then when I was gonna' be leaving for high school (college), I was already on my counterculture journey, and she wasn't. And it just, it wasn't gonna' work out. And so I just broke it off. 'Cause I'm going to college. I'm not gonna' be in town anymore. In fact, I moved out of my house maybe two weeks before I graduated from high school. And she wasn't having it, so she followed me, and she finally caught up with me in Laguna Beach at my friend's place. And so she ended up, she was a freshman at Cal State Fullerton also, which she had applied to go to 'cause she thought that I was going there. But then found out that I dropped out. But now she's at Cal State Fullerton. So she then dropped out of school and took the journey north with the whole group. When we got up there, we were kind of estranged at that point. We were like, What is she doing here? You know? We were so young, you know? So we got up there and within, probably within a month, we figured out that the two of us had a whole lot more in common than the people we'd moved up there with--that come from a different background, different value system even than ours, and not one that we could abide. And so it seemed like an eternity, but it really didn't take that long before we split off and--to make our own way. Got into some trouble in Portland, Oregon. I've got a song about it called Old Portland Town. And there was a pretty vibrant counterculture scene in Portland at that time. And Portland was not the city it is today. In fact, I don't know if you know the history of Portland, but it was one of the--it was very racist at one time. And so nothing like it is today. It's one of the more liberal cities in the country now. But at that time, I think that the general population, like what you would call the typical society, this, I don't know how to really describe it, but just the society in general was very intolerant of the counterculture. And so there was a lot of police. There was a very big counterculture scene in Portland, and it was different than down here. Maybe it was just different than what I'd experienced, but in Portland, it was like the whole counterculture, the whole underground, was like one scene. Whereas down here, the people I was hanging with, we were all sort of like-minded. We weren't druggies. We were smoking pot, and we were experimenting with psychedelics, but we weren't doing hard drugs. But in Portland, the hard druggies, the thieves, the hippies, I mean, it was all just mixed up, you know? And there was--they infiltrated the scene with an undercover cop, who infiltrated the scene for about six months. And that was when Nixon was President. And they had, he had the Department of Justice had instigated the no-knock law. So they didn't need warrants to, if they wanted to raid somebody or search their premises, they could just do it with, I guess with probable cause. But they didn't need a warrant. And they had, so they had the no-knock law, and they had another thing called secret indictments, which instead of, once the grand jury had published an indictment for someone, instead of a warrant being issued, they would just stick that over in a file and just like accumulate indictments on a particular scene, which was the counterculture scene in Portland, basically. And so, while we were in Portland--we had actually, we had been down here. We had just come back up to Portland, and we were visiting at a friend's house, and the door got kicked in. And it was raided by a bunch of cops and plain clothes cops, all their guns drawn. It's pretty scary. And there was probably about twelve of us just hanging around at somebody, at this friend's house getting high. And they kicked in the door and then they basically took each one of us into the bathroom and searched us. And they--I think they called a matron for the girls that were there. And they had two secret indictments on me for sales of hashish. And what I had done is I had given a piece of hashish to this undercover guy, who we didn't trust. When we saw him--the first time we saw him--we were sure he was a undercover guy, sure he was a narc. This was what we called, undercover cops back then were narcs, narcotics officers. Well we were sure he was an undercover narc, and we would have nothing to do with him. People were telling us like, Oh no, he's cool. I got high with him the other day. This kind of stuff. And so after several months went by on a very rainy day, we encountered this guy at a park, where a lot of people used to hang out at Laurelhurst Park in Portland. And there was hardly anybody there. Just us, and he walked up to us and started talking with us. And we were standoffish at first, talking and talking. And then finally he said, Well, I'm gonna' go over to the donut shop down at the corner over there and get some coffee. If you guys wanna' come along, I'll treat. And it was rainy, and it was cold, and we went with him. And we sat there and visited with him for quite a while. And I ended up giving him a piece of hashish--break it off--a piece of hashish that I had, giving him a piece of it. And that ended up being two indictments for sales. And so I had to go through that whole court process up there. It really tied up the whole judicial system because they busted about, I think about 280 people over a period of like three days. So they literally had to empty the drunk tank at the jail. They had to empty the juvenile tank at the county jail to move us all into the jail. And so they moved us from the city jail. I guess we went for an indictment and then they moved us into the county jail, issued us uniforms. It was pretty intense. For some reason, Lauren's charges got dropped. So they arrested her, too, but then they dropped her charges--'cause they didn't really have anything on her--the next day. But they had these two indictments on me. There was a bail bondsman that was interested in bailing me out, but my parents decided that they would leave me in jail for a week or two to teach me a lesson. I'm not sure it was a really good lesson. But it affected me pretty heavily. I felt pretty abandoned in there. And finally got out, went to trial, and got two five-year probations concurrent. So it was ten years worth of probation, but they were run concurrently. So it was like, I'd be on probation for five years. And that was in 1969. So other thing--I had to leave the state of Oregon. So we came back down here under the, theoretically under the jurisdiction of my parents. But I moved in with a friend in Los Angeles, and Lauren moved in back with her parents. But we were still a couple. Eventually we found a place in Laurel Canyon, a little house. And this was 1970, so it was right when the Laurel Canyon music scene was just like in full swing. Crosby, Stills & Nash were making their second record. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, I guess would've been. And I got a job. I had learned to do leather, to sew leather clothes from a friend that I had met in my travels--that stayed with us for a while in Oregon, and he had moved on. But he had taught me how to make leather, how to stitch with an awl and stitch leather stuff. And so I got a job at North Beach Leather in Los Angeles. And one of the people that worked there was David Crosby's girlfriend. So in the afternoons, a couple times a week, David would come into the shop, and I dunno' if you remember any of the early pictures of David Crosby, but he always had the leather jacket with the fringe. Well, it came from North Beach Leather. So he would come in to see his girlfriend towards the end of the day, and he was a very down-to-earth, kind of just easygoing person. So that's when I first met David Crosby. Turned out--and this was after, I don't know if you know his history at all--but he had a girlfriend that was killed in a car crash around that time, previous to when I met him. So this girl that I knew, her name was Shelly, that worked at North Beach Leather also, she was his current girlfriend. And she was living in a little house up in Laurel Canyon. But he, David wanted her to move on to his yacht. He had a yacht called the Mayan, you know, famously known yacht, sailboat of David Crosby's. And so she moved on his sailboat and gave us her little house in Laurel Canyon. So we lived there for maybe, I don't know, the rest of the year, maybe six or seven months, while I worked at the leather shop. And then I got a letter from my friend, who had taught me how to do leather. And he was in Seattle, and he was--he had rented a grocery store, like a little grocery store, corner market type thing, a very old neighborhood market. And there was an apartment upstairs. And he had rented that place--it was no longer a market--so he was turning that into a leather shop and was living in the apartment. It was a two bedroom apartment upstairs. And he invited me and Lauren to come up there and help him start this leather shop. So we moved to Seattle, and that was in 1970. I'm still on probation, so they had to change my probation officer to Seattle. I had like monthly visits to a probation officer. They didn't have drug tests back then, so I was never drug tested, but I would have to go visit my probation officer once a month, just check in. I guess he just sort of looked me over and decided if I was okay or not, I'm not sure. But I had, I think, three different probation officers during that time. So we lived in Seattle for not a year. He ended up finding a girlfriend, and she moved in with us. We had had a perfect trio, you know, a perfect triad. But then when she moved in, it just completely messed up the dynamic. And all of a sudden it just, everything was like a lot of friction, and we realized that we needed to leave. So we started looking for another place, and we found, we drove north to where the town of Everett is, north of Seattle. And we went up into the mountains just looking for a place. Like we were literally looking for some old shack or some old house that we could move into, maybe even squat into, but we were just looking for some other place to live. I was twenty, I guess I was twenty years old, and Lauren was like nineteen or something like that. So we, I'm trying to think. Sometimes my chronology's not perfect. Anyway, we moved up there, we moved out of the place in Seattle, and we found a place on the Mountain Loop Highway that runs from a town called Granite Falls. Like we would take the road towards Snohomish, and then you'd hit this town called Granite Falls. And then from there, there was a Mountain Loop Road that went through the mountains through the Cascades--western side of the Cascades--and then came back down in Arlington, Washington, which is like further north. And we got up on that road outta' Granite Falls, and we found a place for rent up there. It was called the Olympic Motel. And it were these little cabins about the size of this room. The whole cabin was about the size of this room. And then there was like a house that the manager lived in, and we rented one of those cabins, I think it was like 60 dollars a month. And we put a wood stove in it, and we lived there for about a month. And one day I was driving up a little further up the road, and there was this old house, like a really old barnwood-looking house. And there were two guys working on a car in the driveway in front of the house. It was like a driveway and a creek and a little bridge over the creek and then this house. And then they were working on this car, and they were both like a counterculture, like hippie types, you know, long hair and--and I thought, Wow, it's some of my people. So I pulled over, and I went over and introduced myself. And they took me across the street and through the woods, there was another little cabin there that a couple other, another couple lived in. So I met them. They were all from Illinois, had migrated to the west and were on their way to Canada to avoid the draft. And turned out that the one couple in the small cabin had been in a fender banger accident and didn't have any insurance and were being kind of chased down by the people who they'd had the accident with. Nobody had been hurt but just for insurance. And so they were kind of on the run. They didn't know what to do, so they were gonna' go back to Illinois. So they left, and they said, You can have our house. I said, Well, what's the arrangement? They said, Well somebody in Marysville owns it, and they only use it during the summertime 'cause they have a Girl Scout group. And it was about the size of this room also, but it was a cedar shake covered cabin--very rustic looking cabin--right on the Stillaguamish River, maybe fifty, sixty yards from the Stillaguamish River. And so they moved out, and we moved in. A few months later, the landlord came up one day and knocked on the door. And it wasn't the same people that he told could live in the house, right? So, he told us we could stay there until April. And then that they used the place from April until, I guess, August. And so we'd have to be gone for the summer. So when the summer was over, looking for a place again, we couldn't find one. And we just decided to look up those people in Marysville. So what I did is we went down to a friend of ours' house, and she cut my hair, and my hair was like, down to about here (elbow length). She cut my hair probably about like it is now. And then we went as a couple to this house in Marysville, where the landlord lived and pleaded our case. And, you know, We'd really like to move back in there for the winter. And he said, Well, the outhouse that you've been using--'Cause there was no bathroom. It was an outhouse. Everything was no utilities. We would get our water from a spring in a bucket, like gas cans that were for water. And then we'd pour that in a barrel that has spigot on it over our sink. So we'd have to fill that up about every four days or something like that. It was definitely a back-to-the-land thing. We had kerosene lamps for light, cook stove to cook stuff on. And they said, Well, you can move back in there and pay us 5 dollars a month and build an outhouse, because the outhouse we were using was on the next property over. So we agreed, built the outhouse, and lived there for the next winter. During that winter, we realized that Lauren was pregnant with Jamaica. And we were-- 01:21:17.420 --> 01:21:44.861 That was in 1970? 01:21:44.861 --> 01:21:45.916 That was in 1971. 01:21:45.916 --> 01:21:46.334 Okay. 01:21:46.334 --> 01:24:02.540 And my dad had died in 1970. We had come down to get some leather for the leather shop. Lauren and I had borrowed a friend's panel truck, and we drove down to her parents' house, and we were staying there, and my dad was having some health issues, and he went into the hospital for some tests. And then that morning, about three in the morning, Lauren's mom came in and woke us up and said, Your dad passed away. So we stuck around for about another week and then headed back up north to the leather shop. I was twenty-one, so I lost my dad early. He was sixty-one years old. So we were in this cabin and now we're gonna' have a baby, and one of the guys--the guy who was the manager at the Olympic Hotel and I had become friends, and he was kind of mechanically inclined. And so we found this old Chevy truck. It was a '53 Chevy pickup truck that was parked in an old field. It was like a dead truck out in the field. And bought it for 50 dollars and then he helped me basically rebuild the engine and do like a valve job and a few different things on it. He knew how to do all that stuff. So together we worked on that and got that truck running. And my mom told me, she said, Well look, my dad and my mom had bought some property three miles from here on the same road, just on the other side of 395. Like if you go across 395, the first driveway you hit goes up the hill to the top of the hill over there, three miles from here. And they had bought ten acres there to retire on in 1962, and they had developed it into an avocado orchard. And once my dad passed away whenever my mom would get anything from that property, she would just take it and stick it in a drawer 'cause she couldn't deal with it. And so a few years went by. So '71 rolls around, three years after my dad died, and we were gonna' have a baby. And she says, Well, I will put a mobile home or a trailer on the property if you'll come down and take care of it and help me get out debt with the property, you know, with the grove service. And so that sounded pretty good to us. So that's when we moved back to California. And I was still on probation. And now we're getting to how did I support myself, right? Is that coming up? 01:24:02.540 --> 01:24:19.404 So the move to North County and how, what you did for work during that time. 01:24:19.404 --> 01:28:44.479 So we actually had had Jamaica. We moved onto that property, and we built a shed that looks kind of like the shed I have out in back here. And we moved into that shed. She was like seven or eight months pregnant. And we had a friend that was maybe five years older than us that had her last baby that was natural childbirth--Lamaze method. And she'd had a midwife and a doctor that did home deliveries. And we decided that we wanted to do that. It was unheard of at the time. So we got a lot of criticism from people about that. But we hired this doctor. My brother actually helped me with the money for the doctor, and he agreed to deliver our baby. But he wouldn't come and deliver it in the shed we were living in 'cause we didn't have the trailer yet. And the baby was due in August. We'd been there for the summer. And so my brother was out of town. He lived in San Dimas. So he told us we could stay at his house and have the baby there. So we had the baby at my brother's house in San Dimas, but we were living on this property. And then within a month or so after that, the trailer was moved on--it was like a mobile home, and it was moved onto the property. And we set up household there. I got--my first job was with the grove service that had been taking care of my mom's property. Not to take care of my mom's property, though, but to just to work for them. And I got sent out with a crew of migrant workers to clear some weeds on a hill near Fallbrook. They dropped me off. We loaded in the back of a truck, and they drove us out to different places and dropped us here and there and everywhere. And they dropped me out on Reche Road next to this bank that had to have the weeds cleared with one of those weed sticks. So I did that for about a week and got a real appreciation for how hard the work is that migrant workers have to do. But then, luckily, I was looking for another job the whole time, and I got a job at an irrigation supply at Fallbrook called Southwest Irrigation. And I was like a counter boy, like basically when people come in to buy couplings and elbows and tees and pipe, I would wait on them at the counter. And then I also was, would deliver pipe out to the big jobs they were developing into orchards and kiwis and avocados and all that kind of stuff. At the same time, around that same time, we took a class from the agricultural extension on avocado farming 'cause we had ten acres of avocados that were just coming into production on my mom's property. My mom and my brother were pretty much in charge of all of that 'cause he had taken over my dad's business, and was just considered more legitimate than us. We were like counterculture, like not to be trusted or whatever. So I mean, not that they didn't trust us, but I think that they just--I don't think they thought they could depend on us, you know? So they kind of ran the show, and we needed resources, and I had friends I'd met around here that, we'd learned about avocado farming. And I had other friends that were farmers, and we were trying to do as right as we could by that orchard because it was just coming into production. And there were some things that needed to be done. They needed some equipment they didn't have. We just had our little car that we were driving around in. But we needed a truck, and we needed a tractor. But these are things that my mom and my brother were not interested in financing. And so after about three-and-a-half years there and after the birth of my second daughter, who was born on the property in a teepee, same doctor-- 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:56.796 And what is her name? 01:28:56.796 --> 01:31:31.194 Corrina. 01:31:31.194 --> 01:31:44.247 Corrina. 01:31:44.247 --> 01:33:43.333 Yeah. And so she was born on the property. And sometime shortly after that, I kind of made the plea again, like, look, we need--I think I had a tractor at that point. They'd got me a used tractor. But I said, We need a salary. I mean we have free rent, but we need, we're taking care of a ten acre orchard. We're selling the fruit for you, we're making sure that it's taken care of. And basically the people around here that I knew had told me, They should be paying you like a couple hundred bucks a month besides just giving you a place to live there. So I kind of--what's the word I'm trying to think of?--lobbied for a salary, and they weren't having it, you know? And so I was pretty frustrated with my mom and my brother at that point, and I kind of called their bluff. I said, Well look, if you guys are not willing to put into the property what it needs, then you should probably sell it because it's coming into production, and there's gonna' be a lot of stuff needed. And if you don't do what you need to do, it's just gonna' be a big loss. And so they decided to sell it. So that meant we had to find another place to live. So we had developed some friendships with some folks that we still are very close to. Well actually he's passed away, but, his wife, Lizzie, David and Lizzie, our friends, had a place up in the Sierras near Twain Harte, which is in the gold country off of Highway 49 on the Sonora Pass. And they had a thirty-acre apple orchard. They were also back-to-the-landers, right? They're a little older than us. And actually, they had been able to get the land up there where they went. And so we'd become friends with them, and so we decided, well, let's move up there near them, you know? 'Cause land is a lot cheaper than it is here. So we found a place up there to rent, to try to explore the area. And I was gonna' try to--I was really just trying to make, just starting to make some headway with my music here in California. There was a group in California called The Alternative Chorus. It was in Hollywood. It was called the Los Angeles Alternative Chorus (Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase).And it was run by a guy named Len Chandler and a guy named John Braheny. And they were both songwriters, working songwriters. And if you read Bob Dylan's book, Chronicles, which I didn't read 'til many years later, after I was no longer in touch with Len Chandler, I found out that Len Chandler was a mentor of Bob Dylan's when Bob Dylan moved to New York in the Greenwich Village scene. And he was this Black guy, who was a songwriter who rode a motorcycle and didn't take anything from anybody. He was a real outspoken progressive person. And Bob Dylan had the utmost respect for him, and he outlines it in his book, Chronicles. But anyways, Len Chandler was one of these two guys that ran this Alternative Chorus. And what they did is they, you could make an appointment with them as a songwriter and then you'd show up at this little place in Hollywood that they had behind a house, another little house behind a house, where they would do this Alternative Chorus thing. And they had a cassette recorder. And they would have you play like five or six songs just right there for them into their cassette recorder. And they'd probably do like, do this once or twice a month and have like four or five songwriters come in over a day or over two days. And then they would go through everything and pick out the top songs and contact those songwriters and say, Okay, we picked out two of your songs, and we want you to come and showcase at our showcase night at the Ash Grove on such and such a night. Well, every time I went there, they picked out two of my songs, and they were real champions for me. I'm emotional to talk about-- 01:33:43.333 --> 01:33:44.000 That's okay. Take your time. Yeah. 01:33:44.000 --> 01:58:25.524 Yeah. Because as an artist, you run up against the wall so many times. But these guys, they heard what I was doing, and they acknowledged it, and they showcased my music. It didn't get me that far., but the acknowledgement from two people that were in the business that would let you come in and showcase and make some connections. So I worked with those guys for probably three or four years. Over three or four years, they probably showcased me four or five times at different venues. And some of it led to somebody being interested in a song, a publisher being interested in a song, or something. So we had just--so right when that was happening, we moved up to Calaveras County, which was the county north of where our friends lived. And we were completely isolated up there. It was like, we didn't know anybody, and they were, our friends were fifty miles away. So it was kind of a trip to get there, and we weren't seeing them that often. I didn't have a job, so I found a place in Sonora, a bar that would hire me to play three nights a week at like 50 bucks a night. But that was like a thirty mile drive on windy roads, Highway 49. And the place was called the County Jail. I think I was actually off probation by then. I'd managed to get off probation by then. But it was kind of funny 'cause the place was called the County Jail. And so I would drive there three nights a week and play for two or three hours for 50 bucks. And that's what we were living on. The place we were renting was like a labor house, like a lumberjack labor house up in the woods. And we stayed there about six months, and it was just like nothing happening up there. And I'd just started to make some connections down here, and I just felt like, boy, what a mistake to come up here. Right around that time I wrote a song called Goldmine. And we had met--through a friend in Seattle when we lived there--we had met--Well, let's see how I explain this. We'd met these two older folks, I mean, four or five years older than us, a couple in Seattle that were kind of our grounding people there. And they had been friends with Jesse Colin Young from the Youngbloods, which was a--I don't know if you know who that was, but they were a big group in the sixties. He had that hit song, Get Together, was that big hit song for Jesse. And his brother-in-law, his wife's brother, was a really great piano player. The Youngbloods just broke up, or they were just about to break up, and he was starting another band called the Jesse Colin Young Band. And Scott Lawrence, his brother-in-law, was gonna' be the piano player. So they sent him up there 'cause he was also trying to deal with the draft. And he came up to Seattle to stay with these two older friends that we knew that were friends of Jesse's and Susie Young, to deal with the draft board in Seattle, because he had a letter from Jesse that basically said that Jesse was homosexual and that Scott was homosexual, and they had a relationship and that was gonna' get him outta' the draft. But they couldn't do it in San Francisco 'cause too many people knew who Jesse was. And they wouldn't fly in San Francisco, but in Seattle, nobody knew anybody. So they sent him up there to deal with it, to get out of the draft. And that's how we met him, 'cause he stayed there for about two or three weeks. And so when we came back down to Southern California, then the band, his band, was going. Jesse's band was going, and Scott was in the band. And they were playing in LA after we came back down here. And we kind of finagled our way backstage somehow. You know, we kept saying we knew Scott, and we were trying to get backstage. And all of a sudden, Scott walked by, we go, Hey, Scott. You know? So he brought us backstage, and we met Jesse and Susie, his sister, and so we had cultivated a relationship with them. So now we're in Wilseyville, up in Calaveras County, and I've just written this song, Goldmine. And Lauren writes a letter to Jesse Colin Young and asks him if I can come over to the Bay Area and record this song, Goldmine, in his studio, which, I was--cold feet to do that. But she said, I'm just gonna' write him. All they could say is no. Well, he said yes. So we went over there and recorded the song and then Alternative Showcase showcased that song. A couple different publishers held that song, but nobody ultimately picked it up. So we moved back down here to a little place in Oceanside. A rental place in Oceanside. And we were probably there for under a year. So I, we had a baby and a 3-year-old. Lauren decided to get her Montessori credential 'cause she'd been like a helper at the Montessori school. We still had a baby that was gonna' go to the Montessori school. So she started to get her Montessori training. And I started, was able to procure a lawnmower and an edger, a rake, and a shovel and a hoe. And I started to accumulate some gardening customers up in the LA area. The first one was my brother. And then he had, he knew somebody that needed a gardener. So that was the second client. And then Lauren's aunt lived up in that area. And so she hired me. So I had three gardening clients. So I would drive up on like a Tuesday, stay at my brother's house, next morning, do his gardening, go over to another place in town and do the gardening there. And then it would be about one. I would drive into Hollywood with a stack of reel-to-reel tapes of my songs and hit all the high rises, which are filled with publishers. I'd just go in and look at the directories and find out where all the publishers were. And then I would go to every publisher and drop off a tape. Like every week. And my tapes were like piling up at publishers 'cause nobody was listening to them. They were just getting dropped off there. So that didn't really--one guy actually decided that to hold the song, Goldmine. And they gave me like a letter of intent that they wanted to hold it and so not to show it to anybody else. And that was about three months or four months, and then they decided they weren't gonna' do it. So I have lots of those stories. You have to, it's like shots on goal, you know, you have to take shots on goal to score. So, let's see, from there--we hated that place at Oceanside. And we had our kids back in the school in Fallbrook, where they had been when we lived on my mom's property. And we found a place in Fallbrook to rent. It was an eight-acre avocado orchard with a house on it. And so we were able to parlay our way into being the managers of the orchard for the guy who owned the property in exchange for the rent of the house. So another similar kind of setup. So we lived there for four years. And during that time I started gigging. I actually, I had a job--okay, get back to my jobs again. So I had that job with the grove service. So when, after about two weeks of that, I got the job at the irrigation place. I worked there for about a year. And I left there because one of the guys that was a manager at the irrigation place heard about an opportunity and told me about it. He knew two carpenters, two local carpenters from Fallbrook, that were building a big house, just maybe six miles from here, up in the Olive Hill area between here and Fallbrook. It was a custom home they were building for the guy that owned El Molino Mills that used to make all the health food flour and all that stuff. And I can't think of his name right now. But anyways I got hired on as a carpenter's apprentice with those two guys. And they basically taught me basic carpentry and framing. It was really cool job. They were two older guys, like almost my grandfather's age, that had been carpenters around here for years and old school, you know. And I had to do all the really dirt work. But I learned a lot, that I could put into my personal toolkit. About building and construction and wood and hammers and saws and all that stuff. When that house was done, they didn't have another project, but they got me a job with a construction crew in Oceanside that was building a, it was like a, I think it was an office building. And I went to work with them as a framer for about a month. And I hated it. It was just like, 'cause it was nothing like working with these two old carpenters. These, they were all guys about my age or maybe a little older and just very construction worker kind of energy, and it just wasn't my cup of tea. And so I left there and I looked around for another job, and I got a job at the Fallbrook Enterprise, the newspaper. And I had a part-time job there as a pasting--pasting up the real estate and what do they call 'em? Like the want ads. I forget, there's another name for it. So I was doing like, maybe four pages in the newspaper every week. But it was before computers. So everything was like tape on a light board with an exacto knife. And then you would get, the letters would be generated by one computer that would just generate your copy. You'd put it through a waxer and cut it up and stick it to the grid board on a light table. You've probably seen that stuff, paste-up work like that. So I did that and that was really a, I'd done some of that stuff on my own as a kid. I was always into making posters, and I'd go to the stationary store and get the transfer type. And so I kind of had that already. And then working there, they had all the tools, all the different kind of tapes, and the exacto knife and the waxer. So I really enjoyed that job there, and while I was working there, a guy I had met in LA in auditioning to be in a band that I ended up not being in, had moved to Oceanside. And he had been at the same audition, and we'd all exchanged phone numbers. And he knew that I lived nearby. He was a bass player. So he contacted me. And we ended up forming a duo--me playing my songs and him playing bass and singing harmony. And we worked our way down to an open stage in Encinitas at a club called The Stingaree, which, which was owned by Jack Tempchin. I don't know if you know who he is, but he's the, he goes by Jack Tempchin, Eagles songwriter--Jack Tempchin. He wrote Peaceful Easy Feeling, and Already Gone. He wrote Slow Dancing for Johnny Rivers. He's written multiple hit songs. And he lives in Encinitas, just a regular guy, great songwriter. And I had gotten onto him when we first moved to this area, and we'd become friends. 'Cause he had an open stage that he ran at like a music store over there. It was called The Blue Ridge Music Store in Encinitas. It's not there anymore. So I would go play the open mic there that he ran one day a week, or maybe it was a couple times a month. And then he had some success 'cause the Eagles became really big and his songs were like, their hits. And so he was able to buy a nice house in Encinitas. And he bought a bar, and he thought, Well, I'm gonna' buy a bar and make it into a music club. So he made this club called The Stingaree. It was named after a song he'd written called The Stingaree and which was a song about a big party in San Diego that he'd gone to. And so they had an open stage there one night a week. Before the band would play, they would have an open stage. And so we went down there one night and played the open stage. And the band that was playing that night after us was Rosie Flores and the Screamers, Rosie and the Screamers. And I don't know, you probably know who Rosie Flores is, but she's actually being inducted into the San Diego Music Hall of Fame in September. She's my age, but, and she doesn't live here anymore. But she was, at that time, she was like really well known in the San Diego scene here. And she'd had an all-girl band. And now she had this band called The Screamers. And they were packing the place every time they played there. And so we came in one of the nights and played on the open stage, and she heard me play that song, Goldmine. And she came up to me after that. And she wanted to, she wanted that song, you know, she wanted to play it. So I gave her the song, taught her the song, and then we kind of hit it off. And we started playing together. And we ended up--my friend ended up going to Saudi Arabia to work for some oil company or something, the bass player guy. And so Rosie and I ended up being a duo 'cause her band had broken up. And so it was Rosie Flores and at that time, I was using a different name. I've had like three last names. My born last name, and then a name I took on sort of through the whole draft thing, and then my name now, which has been my name for many, many years, which is a Spanish translation of my middle name. So anyways, the two of us had this duo, and we were playing five nights a week, plus I had the job at the newspaper. So I was making okay money, enough to keep us in groceries and pay our rent. Well, we didn't really have any rent, but pay our expenses, our utilities, and all that kind of stuff. And it was all going along pretty good. And then Rosie decided she was gonna' move to LA because San Diego--there was just like, it's like being a big fish in a small bowl. You couldn't really do anything past what we were doing. We were very popular. We were playing in two different clubs four or five nights a week. But she was the draw. I was the songwriter guy, and she was the singer, so she was singing some of my songs. I was singing some of my songs. And then we were doing a bunch of covers that she was singing, and I was singing harmony. So she decided she was gonna' move to LA, and that kind of left me on my own again. So I didn't have a sound system. We were using her sound system. So at that point, a friend of mine from school named Tad Williams had come into some money. His dad had died and had left him and his brother some money, and he told me that he wanted to be my sponsor. So he was like my first patron, and he bought me a sound system. And he basically--I still had the part-time job at the newspaper--but he made sure that our bills were paid for the next couple years. He'd come out and check on us and see how we were doing. And if we were a little short, he'd give me a thousand dollars, to last me in the next couple months. And that got us through, so I could continue to play music. So I was hauling my sound system to a club over in Cardiff three or four nights a week. And it was just basically playing in a bar for four hours a night. Pretty rough gig. So I did that. Then he got killed in a plane crash. And so that was over. That was about the time that--there was a paper in Oceanside called the Blade Tribune at that time. And it was--I forget--it was owned by a company that owned a bunch of newspapers. And the guy who owned the newspapers was the father of this guy, who became a fan of Rosie and myself. He would come to a lot of our shows. So when she left town, he continued to support me, coming to the shows and stuff like that. And he was the music editor at the Blade Tribune. This is a little bit outta' chronology, but this is about 1976-77 is when, she probably left town in '77. And so I was doing these solo gigs at a few different clubs here and there. And just trying to kinda' keep my head above water. And Rick Danko, the band, you know the band? They had just done that movie, The Last Waltz, and the band had broken up, that was like the end of the band. And then Rick Danko, the bass player from the band, started a band of his own, just called the Rick Danko Band. And this guy, who was the Blade Tribune editor, called me up one day and said, Hey, Rick Danko is gonna' be playing at the La Paloma Theater. He is doing two shows on this one night in like an early show and a late show, and they don't have an opening act. Here's the promoter's name. You should go over there and talk to 'em. So I went over there, and I got the gig. So that was my first opening for a national touring act. I opened two shows for Rick Danko at the La Poloma Theater. And Rick Danko and his brother, Terry, came out during my set for both shows, up in the balcony and listened to my set and really liked my songs. And so Rick and I became friends. And he had me open a couple more shows for him when he was in California. 'Cause he would travel all over the place, and he lived in Malibu at the time. So I kind of became a sometime opening act for Rick Danko, who would be traveling with all kinds of people. One of the times in his band was Paul Butterfield--was in his band, or different really high-visibility players that he would pick up along the way and they--so I got to meet a lot of people through Rick. Like I met Paul Butterfield. I actually went to Rick Danko's birthday party, his 40th birthday party, in Malibu. And I met Richard Manuel and his wife from the band and Garth Hudson from the band. They were both at his party. And then I met Joe Cocker through him. I met Bobby Norwood through him. I mean, just a number of people that he would be interacting with me, would just introduce me as his friend and songwriter friend of his. And because I opened that show for him, I got the idea like, Wow, there's all these national shows coming into town. There's like three different promoters promoting in different venues. And so those became my targets. Instead of playing in bars for four hours with cigarette smoke and nobody listening, I started--every time I'd hear about a concert, I'd just keep my eyes on the ads and as soon as someone would be announced, I'd go hit up the promoter. I had a review from the Rick Danko show that was written by my friend, where I had a really good mention, and I parlayed that to a show with Jesse Colin Young when he came to town, because I knew him already. And then that--I ended up getting a show with John Lee Hooker from that, Country Joe and the Fish from that, Emmylou Harris. I mean, the list is like really long, you know? And I did that for the next maybe few years. At one point I did have another job after the Jazzercise job (Joel worked as the audio person on video tapes of original Jazzercise classes created by Judi Missett.), with Community Ed (education). A friend of ours, was working in the Community Ed system, and she said, I think that you could teach on a limited credential--it's like a lifetime limited credential based on experience--in the Community Ed department for senior citizens that are in like rest homes and convalescent hospitals. And so for about a year, I sang songs and played movies that I would rent at the library for senior citizens in rest homes. I would interface with the activities directors at these various homes. And through the Community Ed system, I would go and do a two-hour class for their activities of these homes. It was one of the hardest jobs I ever had. But it served me really well because it was a really good hourly rate. And I could do it like two days, three days a week without having to spend all my time at work while I was trying to do music and art. 01:58:25.524 --> 01:58:28.534 So the classes were music you were teaching? 01:58:28.534 --> 02:05:50.564 Well, they wanted--initially she wanted me to do like an exercise class, just a stretching class with these older folks that are like my age now. But I didn't have any experience in that. So I said, what I could do is I could--I found out that there were a lot of films available, 16-millimeter films back then, through the library system that I could check out. And most of the centers had projectors. So I would go in, I would show them a half-an-hour film on just an interesting subject. I mean, it might be Will Rogers' California Ranch or it might be a documentary about an old guy that lives in Oregon that builds log cabins. I mean, just anything interesting I could find. And then the rest of the class would be sing-alongs. I'd performed some songs and do some sing-alongs. And some of those songs were Woody Guthrie songs. So I was pulling that back into my repertoire, Also, a good place to end, too, is that at one point, because I knew a lot of Woody Guthrie songs, at one point in my career when my kids were young, I decided to look into Woody Guthrie with more depth, because I realized how many people he had influenced and particularly Bob Dylan. And I thought, Well, rather than just listen to Bob Dylan, I want to go back a step and see what it was he found when he was influenced by Woody Guthrie. And so I kind of took a journey to learn more about Woody Guthrie. Even though I had played some of his songs from the time I was a teenager, I just decided to dig in deeper. And the first thing I found out was that there wasn't much Woody Guthrie around. Like, his records were all out of print. You know, you'd be, if you could find a copy of a Bound for Glory, his bestselling novel, you were lucky 'cause those were out of print. But I did manage to find a copy, and I found a store up in Santa Monica that sold a lot of children's records that had the Songs to Grow On that were written by Woody and his wife for their kids. And so my kids were brought up on those songs in the cassette player in the car. And those were some of the first songs I learned. I also found a copy of a tape with Woody and Cisco Houston singing cowboy songs. So I started to incorporate some of the songs into my own set. And when I got this job with Community Ed, I developed that up further. So I made lyric sheets so I could really learn these songs, and the Woody Guthrie songs were the ones that really stuck out as the best songs to me. And so at one point, I thought, Well, I could actually put together a one-man show about Woody Guthrie, and maybe I could even get an endorsement or be sanctioned by the Woody Guthrie, Woody Guthrie's management, which he still had a manager even though he was dead--this guy, Harold Leventhal, I knew from the books that I had found--a couple of books--that he was the guy, who was kind of in charge of Woody Guthrie's estate at that point. And so I looked up his office. I found a number for his office in New York City, and I called his office, and Harold Leventhal answered the phone, And I explained to him that I was a songwriter in California and that I had learned a number of these Woody Guthrie songs and that I had been listening to the Library of Congress tapes, which were recorded by Alan Lomax. It's about four hours of Woody, similar to what we're doing here. Only Woody would tell his story and then play a song that he'd written that kind of went with it. And those tapes are in the Library of Congress, and I--that you can get them on cassette tapes. So I've been listening to those, the interviews and the songs, and I thought, Well, I could put together a real show. So I called Harold Leventhal and kind of broached the idea with him, and he completely just shut me down. He said, No, you can't do that. You can't even play any Woody Guthrie songs, he says, because, all those songs are protected, and they're being held for a production that we're doing about Woody Guthrie, and you cannot use them under any circumstances. Goodbye. Bang, you know. So I was like, Wow, you know, I was really like, taken aback. So I thought, Well, screw that, I'm gonna' play these songs anyways. So I played them in, for my classes, I didn't develop up the show. I didn't go there. But I played these songs in my classes and I honed up these Woody Guthrie songs, so they were sounding really good. Ironically--and this would be a good stop point--many years later, when I was playing at the Woody Guthrie Festivals on a regular basis, when Nora Guthrie gave me the first Woody Guthrie song to write music to, it was a song called Dance a Little Longer. And we recorded it, and I was on my way home from the Woody Guthrie Festival in Oklahoma. I don't know which year it was, but it was the year after I had, it was probably around 2000 (2003). Yeah, 'cause that's when that first record came out that had that on it. So I was on my way home, and my cell phone rings, and it's a New York City number. But I decided to answer, and I answered it, and it was Harold Leventhal calling me up. Now he doesn't know I was the guy, who called him many years earlier, but now I'm the guy who finished this Woody Guthrie song, and he really liked it, So he called me up to tell me how much he liked it and to thank me profusely for helping to carry on Woody Guthrie's legacy. So the irony of that really hit me. And, of course, I never told him about the earlier connection. But that sort of closed the endorsement, finished the endorsement from Woody Guthrie Archives and Woody Guthrie Publications and that kind of thing. So where we're leaving off is I've just worked at, with the Community Ed, and I tried to do the Woody Guthrie thing. Harold shut me down. And now I'm about to get a job at the San Diego Wild Animal Park. 02:05:50.564 --> 02:05:56.157 Okay. Thank you so much. As you have alluded to, this is session one-- 02:05:56.157 --> 02:05:57.052 Yes. 02:05:57.052 --> 02:06:01.814 --of Joel's oral history, and we'll be back together for the next interview. 02:06:01.814 --> 02:06:04.314 I look forward to it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-086 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Counterculture -- United States Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Covina (Calif.) West Covina (Calif.) Portland (Oregon) Seattle (Wash.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anthony L. Jackson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. SC027-32 2:18:08 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Military families ; Mormon Church ; Piracy -- Indian Ocean ; Racism ; United States. Marine Corps ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Houston (Tex.) ; Indian Ocean ; Oakland (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Stuttgart (Germany) ; United States. Africa Command. Anthony L. Jackson Sean Visintainer JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.mp4 2.0:|72(14)|107(6)|150(11)|238(14)|318(10)|378(6)|429(9)|478(5)|513(6)|550(15)|599(3)|636(6)|675(8)|701(7)|744(6)|778(3)|837(7)|886(11)|920(15)|983(7)|1022(16)|1047(11)|1097(18)|1155(12)|1211(5)|1239(4)|1286(11)|1308(15)|1359(3)|1403(14)|1438(17)|1491(2)|1534(15)|1577(4)|1628(9)|1666(10)|1714(2)|1746(10)|1766(5)|1841(2)|1872(10)|1906(14)|1950(3)|1999(3)|2022(6)|2061(11)|2091(3)|2124(4)|2167(3)|2194(9)|2275(11)|2301(14)|2328(13)|2395(13)|2425(8)|2461(11)|2492(10)|2558(16)|2602(17)|2647(2)|2687(9)|2745(9)|2776(12)|2807(8)|2872(15)|2921(18)|2971(2)|3025(4)|3119(3)|3140(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8e01398f12b5d84483867231d0d018cf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Major General Anthony L. Jackson, March 7th, 2023, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 43 Childhood and formative years Jackson describes his childhood, growing up in a military family that moved around the world, as well as his schooling, meals, and football recruitment. He also describes what life is like on military bases, and how he was fortunate to grow up at the time that he did, with opportunity provided by the sacrifices people made during the civil rights movement. civil rights movement ; Germany ; Hawaii ; Houston, Texas ; military base life ; military family ; Oakland, California 0 937 Father's military experience / Growing up in Houston and Fort Hood during the civil rights era Jackson speaks to his father's military experience and the challenges his father faced as a Black enlisted soldier, as well as his father's feelings on Jackson joining the Marine Corps. Jackson recalls the part of his childhood spent in Houston and nearby Fort Hood. He describes the segregated nature of the area, and participating in a sit-in at a local drug store. Jackson also recalls his sister's refusal to move to the back of the bus, fighting in high school and being picked on because of his accent, and speaks to his idea of equality vs. equity, using a metaphor for starting life with a backpack. enlisted Black soldier experience ; General Frank E. Petersen ; Houston, Texas ; racism 0 2290 Family deployments Jackson discusses his father's and brother's deployments, including why his brother was drafted to fight in Vietnam and his brother's medical evacuation to San Francisco. Butte College ; California State University Chico ; drafts and deferments ; Korean War ; Matt Jackson ; medical evacuations ; Vietnam War ; World War II 0 2515 Support systems for deployed soldiers Jackson discusses how support systems evolved in the armed services for deployed soldiers from his father experience to his own. Jackson discusses informal and formal structures and how military spouses play a role in supporting each other. Jackson also discusses the necessity of taking care of military families and how that impacts combat ability. Army ; Key Volunteer Program ; Marine Corps ; military spouses ; Navy ; Ombudsman Program 0 2987 Jackson's dating, marriage, and enlistment Jackson recounts meeting his wife, Sue, at San Jose State University and their courtship. Jackson describes interracial dating at the time and their family's reactions, and recall his ring-buying expedition which ended with a job. Jackson speaks to his work in the insurance industry, and decision to quit that job and enlist in the Marine Corps, and later to re-enlist. courtship ; enlistment ; interracial relationships ; Mike Anderson Agency ; Paul Barriger ; re-enlistment ; Sue Jackson ; U.S.S. Mayaguez ; Vietnam War 0 4116 Qualities of a successful Marine and a successful marriage Jackson describes the value of judgement and moral courage in making one a successful Marine. He discusses the value his older enlistment age gave him, and recruit training. Jackson also describes why he and Sue have a strong marriage. courage ; judgement ; marriage 0 4424 Working as the Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command] Jackson describes his work towards the end of his career, including as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command], where Jackson and his staff - especially civilian scientist Susan Alderson - were instrumental in getting MRAPs [mine resistant, ambush protected vehicles] to forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. MARCENT ; MRAPs ; Susan Alderson 0 5040 Working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, Africa Command [AFRICOM] Jackson recalls his work as the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics for the newly created United States Africa Command, and recalls in detail piracy around the Horn of Africa, and operations resulting from Somali pirates capturing of the U.S. cargo ship Maersk Alabama in 2009. AFRICOM ; Maersk Alabama ; piracy ; Somalia 0 5520 Returning to Camp Pendleton Jackson recounts a career fork where he could have gone back to Iraq to be a chief of staff, but instead ended up as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson recounts his previous times at Camp Pendleton as a colonel and his family's decision to build a house in Fallbrook while Jackson was deployed to various places including Japan and Iraq. Jackson also recalls getting shelled while eating in a mess hall in Al Anbar Governate in Iraq. Camp Pendleton ; Fallbrook, California ; Marine Corps Installation West 0 6078 Jackson's relationship with CSUSM and work with California State Parks Jackson recalls returning to the area and getting acquainted with former university President Karen Haynes and joining the CSUSM Foundation's board. Jackson describes not desiring to work after his retirement from the military, and why he decided to go to work for California State Parks as their director. Jackson also discusses the similarity and differences between working in the military and parks, and discusses his decision to leave California State Parks. California State Parks ; CSUSM ; Jim Mickelson ; Karen Haynes 0 7203 Camp Pendleton and military bases Jackson discusses how Camp Pendleton specifically and military bases in general integrate with their surrounding communities. Jackson also discusses how federal aid and military projects have an effect on the surrounding community. Jackson recounts a negative experience with an invitation to speak at his high school alma mater where he was asked not to wear his uniform. base-community relationships ; Camp Pendleton ; Economic Recovery Act ; federal aid ; prejudice towards servicemen 0 7757 Family history Jackson shows a family history album that his wife, Sue, created, and discusses his family tree, his father's prize fighting career, his grandparents, siblings and extended family. Jackson recounts his mother's side of the family history and their ancestor Green Flake, who was an enslaved man who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Jackson speaks to the presence Green Flake has left in history. boxing ; Brigham Young ; enslaved peoples ; family history ; Green Flake ; Jackson family ; monuments ; Mormonism ; Salt Lake City 0 Moving image Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2011, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.&#13 ; &#13 ; In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago ; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -- constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. &lt ; laughter&gt ; We were, we were poor, you know, and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-- Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-- Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what &lt ; laughs&gt ; , what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-- Visintainer: Could you explain-- Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-- Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. I guess, so. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military speak. Can't help it. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-- Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly is just that much better. But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they'd have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate to the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-- Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-- Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-- Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, &lt ; laughs&gt ; kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" I had no idea when. I said, "semester break!" Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, "Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -- football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop. I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-- Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-- Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," &lt ; laughter&gt ; , "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum &amp ; Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-- captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator. You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! Just make sure you win!" Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, you know, to inspection standards. We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-- Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-- here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-- Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-- Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! Then I got ordered overseas and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to, to arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-- Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-- Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-- Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-- Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-- Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-- Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. That's significant. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. Gently so. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-- Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-- Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? &lt ; Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap&gt ; . Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-- Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard ; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is, and this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my great-great-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother: her, my mother, her ; my sister, her right there ; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-- Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-- Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-- Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Visintainer: Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-- Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-- Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command United States. Marine Corps Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony L. Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany); Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC027 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony L. Jackson