6 10 83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Martin Leyva OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-19 02:24:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection Campus oral histories CSUSM csusm Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment Parolees Prison-industrial complex San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Transitions (Program) California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions Program Martin Leyva Sean Visintainer mp4 LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.mp4 1.0:|16(8)|33(11)|51(12)|62(7)|79(8)|91(15)|111(5)|126(4)|145(12)|155(12)|178(8)|192(7)|205(5)|218(8)|235(15)|251(15)|270(10)|282(11)|295(4)|311(3)|321(3)|341(3)|350(13)|363(6)|379(14)|391(4)|402(11)|414(3)|425(9)|443(8)|461(12)|479(13)|491(3)|507(8)|525(8)|539(6)|551(17)|572(13)|585(11)|600(6)|614(11)|628(18)|647(5)|673(10)|707(13)|728(4)|749(10)|770(5)|800(9)|813(10)|822(10)|849(8)|862(12)|875(12)|907(17)|916(12)|941(13)|954(7)|972(5)|988(9)|1013(15)|1034(12)|1055(4)|1068(6)|1098(4)|1113(9)|1147(4)|1179(8)|1198(7)|1225(3)|1243(4)|1262(14)|1293(17)|1310(7)|1329(11)|1347(16)|1364(8)|1406(2)|1460(5)|1478(4)|1494(4)|1519(16)|1538(18)|1557(9)|1589(7)|1603(4)|1626(8)|1642(12)|1664(9)|1693(10)|1720(13)|1739(4)|1750(3)|1777(3)|1789(3)|1809(4)|1842(11)|1866(20)|1900(16)|1918(19)|1928(12)|1947(7)|1967(4)|1986(7)|1998(13)|2023(17)|2041(15)|2062(12)|2076(7)|2097(3)|2119(16)|2147(9)|2158(9)|2173(6)|2204(3)|2225(4)|2238(4)|2251(17)|2273(5)|2305(2)|2317(9)|2328(10)|2347(9)|2360(5)|2386(10)|2406(15)|2425(5)|2444(16)|2472(12)|2494(9)|2506(17)|2530(4)|2543(12)|2563(4)|2582(7)|2600(10)|2611(3)|2622(6)|2641(6)|2666(10)|2678(10)|2700(4)|2721(9)|2732(3)|2747(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5caf9a55a3ead1fafbf38f16091217c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Introduction of Martin Leyva (narrator) and date and place of interview (October 27th, 2022 at California State University San Marcos University Library). 0 23 Roles at Cal State San Marcos, Palomar College, and MiraCosta College Leyva discusses his roles with Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, as well as with the Transitions Programs at Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges, and his role as a Professor of Sociology. Leyva also discusses the Rising Scholars community college program, and what support from university and system administrations, as well as the nonprofit sector looks like. California State University San Marcos ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; professional development ; Project Rebound ; Rising Scholars ; Transitions Program 0 494 Typical day of work Leyva discusses what a day of work is like for him, including supporting students, and the emotional labor that comes with his work, how to build trust with formerly incarcerated students, and what success looks like in his role. academic instruction ; California State University San Marcos ; emotional labor ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; scholarship ; student success ; trust-building 0 1453 Santa Barbara City College and the Transitions Program Leyva relates how he was released from prison and had trouble with employment. At the recommendation of his niece, Leyva attended college and began forming a community with other formerly incarcerated students, which led to an informal support group. Leyva relates how that support group became a cohort model for formerly incarcerated individuals Employment ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services Office ; Santa Barbara City College ; Transitions Program 0 1764 Employment realities after prison Leyva relates issues he encountered in gaining and retaining employment after release from prison, and the barriers that formerly incarcerated people face in re-entering the workforce. Leyva recounts finding work on campus at Santa Barbara City College and recent legislation that is intended to lessen barriers for formerly incarcerated folks. Employment barriers ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services ; Santa Barbara City College ; student success 0 2930 Enabling success for formerly incarcerated students Leyva discusses "just showing up" as a way to model success and assist students in acclimating to an academic environment. Leyva also discusses peers doing work in assisting formerly incarcerated students and/or affecting change, and the characteristics that make for successful re-entry for people getting out of prison. belonging ; Frankie Guzman ; imposter syndrome ; James Binnall ; student success 0 3571 Pathways for formerly incarcerated students in academia Leyva discusses what majors and programs tend to be popular with formerly incarcerated students, what areas Leyva thinks we need more formerly incarcerated people involved in, and what professions they cannot be involved in for legal reasons. college majors ; Education ; employment barriers ; Human Services ; Justice Studies ; Nursing ; Political Science ; Social Work ; Sociology and Criminology ; STEM fields ; student success 0 3898 Employment in prison Leyva discusses the process of employment in prison ; how incarcerated individuals find employment, what that employment looks like, and what the pay is like for incarcerated people. Leyva also discusses what the prison-industrial complex and onshoring movement means for exploitation of labor in prisons. Leyva describes his experience working as a landscaper while in prison. labor exploitation ; landscaping ; legislation ; prison employment ; prison-industrial complex ; Thirteenth Ammendment ; UNICOR 0 4374 Media narratives Leyva discusses how media narratives and election cycles drive public policy and public perceptions of crime and impact non-violent offenders. Leyva also discusses the importance of being critical of our government, the systems in place, and our corporations. carceral system ; corporate criticism ; governmental criticism ; media narratives 0 4707 Childhood in Santa Barbara Leyva discusses his childhood in Santa Barbara and his hometown neighborhood, what his community looked like when he was growing up ; his family, his gathering places, corner stores, Ortega Park murals, barbecue, and childhood rolemodels. Leyva also discusses what his mother did for a living, and his family's work ethic. Manuel Unzueta ; murals ; Oak Park ; Ortega Park ; role models ; Santa Barbara ; work ethic 0 5339 First legal troubles, observational learning, and patriarchy Leyva discusses stealing mopeds and getting caught, observational learning, and substance abuse. Leyva also discusses modeling emotional intelligence and emotional management, sobriety, mindfulness, and the importance of dismantling patriarchy. Leyva tells the story of how he got caught with the stolen mopeds. Honda Spree ; moped theft ; observational learning ; patriarchy 0 5921 Further legal troubles and post-incarceration life Leyva describes his continuing legal troubles and trajectory into the carceral system, crime as a call for help, and how patriarchy doesn't teach skills to be emotionally vulnerable and to be supportive. Leyva also recalls severing a relationship upon coming back to his community, and what defying this meant. Leyva relates this experience to the struggles incarcerated people face in doing the work to heal. Leyva also discusses what home is to him, and how it changes during the healing process post-incarceration. healing ; Juvenile Detention ; patriarchy ; post-incarceration ; robbery ; substance abuse 0 6839 Recidivism, books and education in prison, and mentors in prison Leyva discusses how he won't say he will never be back in prison. He also recalls education in prison, and prison mentors that guided his reading and helped him start the healing process. Leyva also discusses prison subcultures and what literature is dangerous to have in prison. banned books ; critical pedogogy ; mentorship ; My Life Is a Sun Dance ; Pedagogy of the Oppressed ; prison subculture ; recidivism ; The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom 0 7746 Graduate school Leyva discusses coming to North San Diego County for graduate school at California State University San Marcos and the justice studies program in the Sociology Department. Leyva also discusses how our systems and environment drive the choices we make. Antioch University ; California State University San Marcos ; Chris Bickel ; Justice Studies ; rational choice ; Xuan Santos 0 7926 Prison abolition Leyva discusses his feelings on prison abolition, dismantling patriarchy, and feminist thought theory. Leyva describes his wishes for alternatives to incarceration and what a world without patriarchy looks like. feminism ; patriarchy ; prison abolition 0 8369 Project Rebound in the future Leyva discusses how he'd like to see Project Rebound grow, how formerly incarcerated people could have opportunity through it, and how he would like to see CSUSM's Project Rebound become a community hub and place to grow, student or not. community ; Project Rebound 0 8556 Closing thoughts Leyva offers his closing thoughts on the conversation, what his work means to him, and paying homage to his mentors through his work. global incarceration ; paying it back 0 Oral History Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community.&#13 ; &#13 ; Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development-- someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. &lt ; Affirmative&gt ; [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you're property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or-- and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, "Wow, I can actually do this." And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-- Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work-- it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. &lt ; Laugh&gt ; There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're--[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very &lt ; laugh&gt ; now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also-- I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and-- Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So-- Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, "Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to." This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I'm] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, "You might not trust me now, but eventually you will." And it gets to that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, "Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource." And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, "Every time I call you answer." I'm like, "Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you." Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, "I've never seen a professor like you." And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, 'cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, "Man, the work just began for you." Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, "I got an A on this test, thank you!" And I'm like, "Don't thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?" And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost-- because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, "Why don't you go to school?" And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was-- you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, "Hey, you should come up and check out school." Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, "Hey, we need a little spot to meet." And she's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group." And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, "You can't have that job." I'm like, "It's a job though, right?" And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, "You can't leave the county." Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job-- Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, "Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're--" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, "You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months," or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, "We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on." And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, "Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job." Right. FAFSA's not money. And I was like, It's kind of money &lt ; laughs&gt ; , right? But he's like, "No, you need a job." And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, "I need a job." And she's just like, "Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus." And I was like, "What's that?" So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, "How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!" But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like &lt ; surprised gesture&gt ; "Hmm." You know, next thing I know I'm working in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, "Have you been convicted of a felony?" You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, "You know what?" 'Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, "If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume." Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, "Yeah, we wanna hire 'em." And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We'd support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that &lt ; airquote gesture&gt ; look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what's this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, "Can I see your ID?" And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, "Yes, you can see my ID." Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, "Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?" Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, "Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that." Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, "You think you can get a program started?" And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, "What do you think a program would look like?" I said, "We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks." I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, "You think you can get a cohort going?" And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, "Sure. What is it?" You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, "Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff." And I was, I was just like, "Yes." Because it was a job. It was being around the people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, "Oh, I want to learn this." It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum ; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then-- and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. 'Cause that was interesting because they said, "You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?" And I said, "Yes." The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, "Just make a flyer." And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said "Transitions Program." Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, "Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school." Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, "Oh, yeah, I'll check it out." And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, "Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school." I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, "Hey, you should try home to school." And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, "Yeah, I'll try it out." And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, "What do I do if a student asked about a job?" And they're like, "Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study." So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, "Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here." They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, "Look, if you got learning disabilities," and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, "Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up." And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. "I can't do it." And it's just like, "Yes you can. Yes you can." And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn't. "I don't believe in myself, I can't do it." And it's like, "Yes, you can. Yes you can." It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It's a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, "God, I have to do that." Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, "You can't do that program," or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, "Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system." It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that ; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they're motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who're serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, "Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience." Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, "I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else." Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to &lt ; unintelligible&gt ; . And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, "Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do." And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, "This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is--" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master's of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology 'cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, "Let's go to Washington." You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, "Where's my politicians at though?" You know what I mean? Where's my &lt ; laughs&gt ; ? Where's my--'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. 'Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, "Let us in here" because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools ; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers-- The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they're caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, "Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. 'Cause they do, they run your resume. "What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?" And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, "Hey Martin should do this job," right? So they hired me right away and it was-- The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There're so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't-- They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working 'cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you're completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it 'cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, "Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour," because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, "We need to get crime under control!" I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-- Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, "Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?" It's like, no, that was an incident. Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with "murderers this, murderers that," and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not-- Yeah, I'm so critical about media &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: 'Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? &lt ; laughs&gt ; One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the-- places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like--Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I'm thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, &lt ; laughs&gt ; put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the "bad guys." I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, "Are you doing your homework?" And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? "My little king." And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, "Don't get into trouble." You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, "Good job." You know what I mean? &lt ; laughter&gt ; So it's like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, "Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it." You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education 'cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh-- good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; . I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, "No, you gotta go to work." I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, "Why are you stealing mopeds?" Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn't to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, "I gotta go!" And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, "I'm gonna try that." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer &lt ; laughs&gt ; to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, "Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?" I'm like, "I took it." He's like, "Oh, let me take it." And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn't-- You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, "I know how to do that," because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, "Pretend you're the outsider looking in." Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy 'cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well-- I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. 'Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull 'em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, "Well, here I am." Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast 'cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, "I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it." It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, "Hey, I need some money." I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, "I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here." And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, "I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how," because that's a sign of weakness to say like, "I feel emotional." And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, "I just, I'd rather be here than out there." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone-- who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, "Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff." Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, "Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some--Let's go partying!" For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. "You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet," is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. 'Cause he looked at me and he is like, "Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird." You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old--the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me 'cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. 'Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're-- it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. 'Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. 'Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? &lt ; Laughter&gt ; But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don't even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, "When you get to prison," 'cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, "When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use." He always said, "Use that as a moment of clarity." And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, "I don't want this." And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, "You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here." And I got offended. I was like, "What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, "I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?" And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, "You're full of shit old man." Right. But he wasn't. He wasn't. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, "Oh, you're part of a prison gang." I was like, "I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe." And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like-- mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, "What do you think about this book?" And I-- we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines ; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors 'cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. 'Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don't remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, "What are you reading?" And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, "Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read." You know, &lt ; Visintainer laughs&gt ; like he started critically thinking like, "It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?" And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, "You should read this book." And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, "Here, you should read this." He starts telling me about the book. "Just to help you understand the place you're in." I took the book and I said, "Cool, thanks." Didn't pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, "What'd you think of that book?" And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, "That's pretty good." And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn't about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed," even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, "Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you." And I never understood that, "Well, who's gonna take away this book?" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book &lt ; laughs&gt ; . But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. 'Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said-- he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, "Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it." And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, "Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you." I'm like, "Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people." Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That's a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious-- let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I'm the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, "I wanna be a MFT or social worker." And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, "You're nothing but an alcoholic." You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? "Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble." I said, "Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?" Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Sorry. Visintainer: No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender's super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. &lt ; shrugs&gt ; It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -- community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we-- I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more-- sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, &lt ; laughs&gt ; you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that's a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. &lt ; laughs&gt ; We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let's come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, "Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do." And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause &lt ; laughs&gt ; yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn't even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. 'Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/22735 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions program Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College. Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Martin Leyva Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Schaffman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. SC027-084 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Karen Schaffman Jennifer Fabbi moving image SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Experience with dance as a child and adolescent Schaffman reflects on being a lifelong dancer starting with her initial experience with dance as a child and her mother’s role in exposing her to dance. lifelong dancer ; mother ; Connecticut Ballet ; ballet ; jazz ; Hartford Conservatory 0 382 Formal education Schaffman details her formal undergraduate and graduate education in dance including a degree at the European Dance Development Center in Holland and a PhD in Dance History and Theory at University of California, Riverside. University of Massachusetts ; women's studies ; feminism ; gap year ; San Francisco ; improvisation ; Holland ; Germany ; California ; University of California, Riverside ; Feldenkrais Method ; Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais 0 874 Foundational theory and practice for Schaffman’s work Schaffman describes theories and practices that underpin her work including a somatic approach to dance, perceptual improvisation, dance dialects, and contact improvisation. somatics ; perceptual improvisation ; dance dialects ; contact improvisation ; performance and cultural theory 0 1802 Service to the community and profession Schaffman discusses her teaching, scholarship, and service and how she was able to differentiate her service from teaching and scholarship during the retention, tenure, and promotion process. teaching ; scholarship ; creative activity ; service ; David Avalos ; Susan Foster ; Lower Left ; Bonnie Biggs ; Mtfti Imara ; California Center for the Arts ; Andrea Liss ; Kristine Diekman ; Meryl Goldberg ; Center ARTES ; Marilyn Huerta ; Arts and Lectures ; curriculum 0 2233 International work Schaffman speaks to her work in and travels to different countries and the influence this has had on her life and career. global citizen ; intercultural exchange ; Europe ; Mexico ; Pachuca ; Day of the Dead ; Holland 0 2238 Plans in retirement Schaffman shares her plans for retirement including slowing down, participating in a training institute in Vienna, and coming back to teaching at CSUSM as part of the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Donna Ray ; Feldenkrais ; training institute ; Vienna ; Pilates 0 2456 Schaffman’s journey to CSUSM and evolution of the campus and curriculum Schaffman reflects on the evolution of CSUSM, especially regarding the growth of the dance curriculum and program, faculty, and guest artists. curriculum ; University Curriculum Committee ; dance minor ; Choreographies of Resistance ; Michael McDuffie ; Ranjeeta Basu ; Cheri Hill ; breadth ; active learning ; social justice ; diversity ; Arts and Lectures ; Dancing through Prison Walls ; Visual and Performing Arts ; space ; theater ; Anya Cloud 0 4019 Working during the Covid pandemic Schaffman talks about her work during the Covid pandemic and the rise of Black Lives Matter and murder of George Floyd. (keywords: pandemic, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, online performances, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Mtfti Imara, T. Lang, Melicia Taylor, Black artists, Zoom, Skyla Miles, Minnie Atkins, sabbatical, Think Gravity Dance Tank, symposium, Anya Cloud, Ishmael Houston-Jones, contact improvisation, Contact Dance International Film Festival, Makisig Akin) pandemic ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; online performances ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; Mtfti Imara ; T. Lang ; Melicia Taylor ; Black artists ; Zoom ; Skyla Miles ; Minnie Atkins ; sabbatical ; Think Gravity Dance Tank ; symposium ; Anya Cloud ; Ishmael Houston-Jones ; contact improvisation ; Contact Dance International Film Festival ; Makisig Akin 0 4486 Schaffman’s most impactful work Schaffman reflects on what she considers to be her most impactful work. She believes the creation of the Dance program at CSUSM is the most important accomplishment of her career. Debra Hay ; Lower Left ; dance program ; Summer Arts ; Think Gravity 0 5169 Additional projects and collaborations Schaffman adds a few more collaborative projects that she wants to give her colleagues and the University credit for. United and Severed ; Kristine Diekman ; traumatic injury ; PTSD ; palliative care ; Mindfulness Center ; Elizabeth Hospice Center 0 Oral history Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:29.614 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Dr. Karen Schaffman for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is June 5th, and it is 2:10 p.m. This interview is taking place at Karen's office on the CSU San Marcos campus, where we are guests on traditional unceded Luiseño/Payómkawichum land. Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:29.614 --> 00:00:31.545 Thank you. 00:00:31.545 --> 00:00:41.375 So to start off, can you tell me about your experience with dance as a child and adolescent and where you got your passion for dance? 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:47.495 Great, thank you. And first, I'd like to begin by also thanking you so much for the opportunity to share my story, and it's really truly an honor in this moment of my life to have this interview. 00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.638 Absolutely. 00:00:49.638 --> 00:00:54.228 Thank you so much. 00:00:54.228 --> 00:00:56.064 You're welcome. 00:00:56.064 --> 00:01:30.356 My childhood story began with dance. So I've been dancing--I'm a lifelong dancer. And I began dancing as a kid. And very young. My mom, there was, we lived on the end of a street, and there was a summer creative dance program. I must have been two or three. I don't have the exact date from my mom. And that's where I fell in love with dance. I have some little picture somewhere stored away with me like in some kind of end of something performance. But it was on the playground, and it was outdoors,and that's where my dance career began. Dance for me--should I just ramble? Is that good? 00:01:30.356 --> 00:01:34.752 Yeah. 00:01:34.752 --> 00:05:45.834 Dance for me was always a sense of a place for me to belong and I'll say survive. I was very supported to go to dance through my whole childhood, but we were a middle class family, and so I relied on scholarships, I usually got them. I was seriously into dance. So I danced until I was probably in seventh grade, No, maybe sixth grade, like twice a week. And then I got into a dance company, and I had a child's part in the Connecticut Ballet, regional Ballet Company. So very early on was I in a very kind of intergenerational environment, and you'll hear through this interview that that's really important to my work and maturing as a still as a performing artist. So it was really, uh, that was like a turning point for me to be in that company. But it was also a time in my life where I had been studying ballet where--my body started to change and I knew that, and then peer pressure and things like high school and things like that. So I changed to modern dance and jazz. So at the time, jazz dance was really predominant. So that's my, just my, like, early days. But I think I'm really not getting to the heart of it with my mom, because my mom really shuttled me back and forth. She was a nurse and, uh, full time, so I had a lot of chores at home to do and things like that. But I always knew that after the chores, my mother was coming home from work and basically going back to the same neighborhood. And so, yeah, it was a really important time for me. My brothers were very into sports and at the time we didn't have Title IX, and I was not encouraged to do sports. I think I probably would've been a good athlete, actually, but I wasn't really invited or included. So dance was really a natural place for me to be physical. But I loved going to dance class. I loved--in the ballet--I was in a ballet conservatory. It was called the Hartford Conservatory. Again, I was one of the young ones there. And there was a live pianist. His name was Julius. And I just remember just loving going there. And I had two older brothers, and it was really, it wasn't a great home environment. My brothers were pretty rough on me to put it lightly. So going to dance was always a place for me to just go and be. And I had really, really good training. I have to be--I'm so grateful that I landed in those places because my teachers were very supportive, but they were also slow with me. They were like--I was called Little K--Little K, we're not putting you on point shoes yet because your ankles aren't strong enough. So I actually had really, really, really good training. So I'm very--I'm very, very grateful for that. My mom, later in life, showed me a letter that they were encouraging me to go to a performing arts high school, and my mother didn't want me to go. And it was after I got my PhD and a career in dance that she said, You know, I need to--it was like she needed to make amends. So she showed me the letter from the Hartford Conservatory encouraging my mother to put me in a professional program, but she didn't. So, but that's interesting. So I don't know where my career would've went at that time. But I stayed in. So, my time with dance was--but I was very, very shy, I have to say. So I grew into not being shy as I got older, but as a kid I was a very shy, and so people asked me to dance in front of them. I'd always be like, no, I--it's like I didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who would be like, get up on the table or get up in front of grandma and grandpa and show them what you do. So I was very, very shy as a kid. So dance was a place where I-- and performance was a place for me to go. Yeah. I could go on and on about that, but. 00:05:45.834 --> 00:06:22.134 Well, maybe it'll come up in some questions. Okay. So you have substantial formal education. You earned a BA in Dance and Literature at UMass Amherst, and an equivalent degree in experimental dance at the European Dance Development Center in the Netherlands, and also your PhD in Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. And please fill in anything that I missed. How did your formal education impact who you are as a professional? 00:06:22.134 --> 00:14:14.595 So I only applied to three schools for undergraduate, and it was not a given, but pretty much where I grew up in a very middle class family that I would go to college. I didn't get into Cornell. That was my first choice. I didn't know how I was gonna afford that anyway. And then University of Connecticut was my backup, but they didn't have a dance program, so I didn't really want to go there, but my parents encouraged me. And at the time, there was this five-hour radius of driving, like, it was very strict where we were gonna apply back then. And I was on my own, actually, my grandmother was very ill, and my grandparents had moved from Brooklyn to be next to my mom. So I got into a dance major program at University of Massachusetts, and it's a very good program. They had something called the Five College Dance Program, which is part of a consortium with Smith College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke, and Amherst. So I got to pay, it was still outta state, Massachusetts, but got to take advantage of the five college dance program. But even finishing my first year, I was like, something's wrong here. I didn't really like the dance program. It was very competitive. And even though I didn't have any issues with what they thought would maybe be too much weight in the wrong places or anything, they were very critical of other dancers. And I knew right at that age that I wasn't really jiving with that program. Though I was even teaching my first year 'cause I was very advanced. So they gave me the work study teaching, like for the university. So I kind of gave up that opportunity, and I dropped out of the dance program, and I did what was called a bachelor's degree with an independent concentration. So I did dance and literature. So I always continued dancing, but I took all of my dance classes in the five college area. So I kind of got this semi Ivy League or alternative school 'cause Hampshire is a very alternative education. And then I took other classes at UMass, but UMass just opened my eyes up to many things. I did musical theater there and, but my dance and literature was really, really important because I did a lot of, what we called then, well, was--it was UMass had one of the first women's studies programs. So I did a lot of women's literature and I did, I learned about feminism, I was like, this was like my awakening. Yeah. I took a lot of what we call then third-world women's writing and literature courses. So I'm not from the third world, but we don't even use that phrasing anymore. But UMass was in the forefront of politics in the body at the time. So, it's interesting how that became, came back and around. So I had a great education there. I did take what we call now a gap year at the time 'cause I needed to get out into the world. And then I went, I lived in San Francisco for a while and then I knew I wanted to live overseas or go overseas, but I didn't wanna be a tourist. So I got in--there was no internet or anything then. So I was studying in San Francisco with Joe Good in a summer workshop. And this woman who's now well known in New York, Sarah (now I show my absent mind). Sarah Mickelson said, you should go here. She was British. and so there was a school in Holland, and they take two guests a year, and they accepted me with like my CV and a cover letter and a letter of recommendation. And I had no money. My parents were not supporting me at all in this phase of my life. I was waitressing in San Francisco and doing dictation. I worked on the first little Mac box. And I got a loan--I think I'll share this--from the Hebrew Free Loan Association. They gave me $2,000 up front, but I had to pay, start paying back $50 a month. And off I went to Europe, and I paid my tuition. And so I had like, I don't know, I had only like $500 left in my pocket, and I went to the school in Holland. And that basically just changed my life. So it was very alternative. And it was very much based in improvisation, but many of the teachers were coming from either England or the United States, from New York. So it was kind of the New York, the downtown scene, all of the people who were working with somatics in the body. So really doing deep research in terms of inner sensation and anatomical release it was called. So it was a very particular kind of dancing. And I was just like, I would just, I was just mind blown. I would stand there in the studio and somebody would do a performance where they would just take ten minutes to raise their arms. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life. I was like, okay, what is this? And then the school split. They opened a new school in the town called Arnhem, and I went to Arnhem, and I spent two years there. And I had an amazing experience there with many amazing artists that I'm still, some of them I'm still in touch with. And I've curated, actually, here at the school and in summer arts. And so I went to there, changed my life. And then I got a job teaching in Germany before Germany had master's degrees in dance. And I worked in a conservatory environment there in a clown and dance school, So I taught at a clown and dance school for three years. And that was a great experience. But at the time I was involved with someone. I had to make a decision. So I decided to move to California. And, I was, What am I gonna' do here? And that's a longer story, but there was a brand-new program that I was thinking about getting a master's, but because I became so open to this other way of dancing, there was really no master's programs at the time that I was interested in, except maybe in New York. And I was like, Well, I live in California now. But there was a brand-new program at UC Riverside. It was the third year, and it was one of the very, among the very first top three universities that gave a PhD in dance. And so when I saw the poster in the back of one of these magazines called Contact Quarterly is how I found out about it, I was like, Oh, wow. So I went and I sat in on a few seminars and I was like, I wanna go there. So I applied. And so then I went to UC, Riverside. And it's really a groundbreaking program in terms of dance studies, the field of dance studies, which is different than just getting a degree in dance. Yeah. Dance studies is really about the political, social, and cultural impact and of the body and dance in the world. So that's what I did. And then I have one more education that I did that's very extensive called the Feldenkrais Method. So thank you to this university who partially funded that education. Yes. It's a four-year program, and it's based on the somatic educational method. And it's based on research of someone named Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, and he was part of the human development generation. Yeah. He was also born the same year as my grandfather in the Ukraine, which was interesting. But he had a knee injury. He was one of the first white people, men, white men, to learn judo. And he learned judo, and he brought a lot of Eastern philosophy into this body modality. So it's not a dance training, it's really about finding ease in your own movement. So I still do that now. I bring that into all I do. And so I have, those are my key big degrees. 00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:34.754 So following up on that your focus for your career for the last several decades has been on somatics, perceptual improvisation, contact improvisation, and performance and cultural theory. Can you tell me a little bit more about these areas of focus? 00:14:34.754 --> 00:18:27.000 Yes. So you had somatic, perceptual improvisation, cultural theory, and contact improvisation? Yeah. So a somatic approach to dance, or the body, has to do with more about feeling than how it looks. It's really about inner sensation and really getting in touch with oneself on a very cellular level, if I can speak that way. It's more about embodied and lived experience and of course, that has cultural and impact culturally and through people's cultural history and ancestry. But it--and it really includes this very sensorial based way of dancing and through the world. So it's not about how it looks like, for example, like ballet where you have to look a certain way or something, but really about an inner sensorial world that brings forward the dance or the healing or whatever. So it's, it's an ancient way of being with oneself before we had technologies and things like that. So that's the somatic piece. Is that clear kind of? It is? And then perceptual improvisation really has to do with, again, responding to the conditions. So it's a little bit more related to the visual art world. And one of my areas that I researched, well, probably since I'm a kid, but is visual art. And I also studied--I took Harvard summer school one summer way, way back when, and I did video when it was a three-quarter inch and you sit down (unintelligible). So I did some--I've studied some videos. So I'm, it's really about--how do I explain perception improvisation on an interview like this? Let's see. Something about how do we, how do we perceive the world? So it's, it really does relate a lot to visual arts in terms of perspective and visual field and responding, but could be your auditory field as well. So it's related to somatics in that way. It also is really, really related to Eastern thought, which is about inner perception and meditation and things like that. So I've cultivated a more contemplative way of approaching dance as well. Yeah. It comes from, I wouldn't say I am a Buddhist or anything like that, but I've studied Eastern philosophy. I've done a little bit of martial arts, just a little bit. So I've kind of come at it with that. And then cultural theory is dance and cultural studies. Dance studies is really a blend of dance and the field of cultural studies. So we're really looking about diversity in dance, and we're considering not just a European perspective of dance, which becomes very stereotypical. And so it's changed so much then. But it's really the dance studies field really emerged out of celebrating and analyzing, honoring the histories and practices of diverse cultures across the world. I mean, there's so many dance dialects that around the world. So dance studies really opened my eyes up to how big the world of dance is and how much of an impact it has politically and socially on our identity and things like that. So everything we learn about dance can be applied to (unintelligible). Dance studies can be applied to any field, really, in my opinion, because it has so much to do with the politics of the body. Yeah. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 That's really interesting. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:35.444 Yeah. Yeah. And I bring that here to Cal State. 00:18:35.444 --> 00:18:43.535 So how have your areas of focus benefited your students? Many students over the years? 00:18:43.535 --> 00:23:12.493 Well, and I did talk about contact, so I'll bring that back 'cause that's what my area of research was about. I think I should say something about contact now. Is that okay? So my PhD was based on contact improvisation, which is, brings together all of those other practices--somatics, perceptual improvisation, dance technique, and then cultural studies. So I was looking at something that emerged from the fifties and sixties, which was a huge art movement in New York and really influenced a lot of people. And it was based on gravity and momentum and touch. So contact improvisation. My dissertation was really also a lot about touch and how contact improvisation, which is a touch-based dance form. It's like what happens when two bodies move together? And with gravity and momentum? Now we do this, people do this, not me, in tango, in salsa, and all sorts of dance traditions around the world. But contact has a particular aesthetic. And so it might look like something, but it's so much based in sensorial awareness. So this was--has been--a big part of my life is contact improvisation. And so--but contact improvisation sometimes universalizes this idea of what the body is. So my dissertation also took that apart and down a bit that said, No, this is very particular as a particular way of moving. It's not universal. Not everybody does it, you know, things like that. So anyway, it's a longer discussion, but I bring all of that into San Marcos when I--CSUSM--when I came here there was no program. And so it was clear to me that I was starting in a very challenging place but also really exciting place. One of the reasons I took the job here--I got an offer at a school that was already established as well. Because dance, dance for here, the byline here is that dance is for everybody and every body. And that this would be an inclusive environment and that this would be an environment that welcomes all students. So it would not be conservatory driven or even wanting to go in that direction. Even though we would be working on our technique, on our awareness--we would use words like awareness rather than virtuosity. You know, virtuosity is great, but would be more about awareness. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I think I was highly successful at that. And that is actually happening. So I think that's the biggest thing. But the students always are like, it's really different here. When people come to visit or high schools come always like, oh, it's really different here because it's really about community and there's a lot of support. We don't just dance. We talk about where we're at. We take a weather report. What's going on? One word, you know, everybody share a word. How do you feel today? We talk about access needs. We don't make assumptions in the class that everybody's gonna do everything. So there's a lot of that. So it's really with what my friend, Anya Cloud, collaborator, brought the phras--she was a lecturer here for nine years--"Dancing with the body you have." So yeah, no assumptions. No assumptions. Yeah. And also adaptability. access needs, cultural backgrounds, what's going on in the world. We don't ignore, we don't go, you may get a great escape in a dance class, but dance studies is not about this dream. that dance helps me escape the world. It's basically the opposite. It's really about grounding in the reality and what am I dealing with and what are the conditions right here and now? So I've cultivated those kinds of values here. And then the other big thing is because I went to Riverside, early on I brought in that students need to relate whatever we're learning in the class. almost every, and almost--not all classes, but many classes are like--how do you relate this to your major or something you care about in the world? Because dance is always in dialogue. We're always in relationship to the world. 00:23:12.493 --> 00:23:14.733 That's really, it sounds very unique. 00:23:14.733 --> 00:23:28.015 Yes, it is. (laughter) It's a unique program that that emerged. And, um, yeah, see where it goes, too, so I'm hopeful. 00:23:28.015 --> 00:23:35.375 So what has scholarship and creative activity looked like in your career as a professor of dance? 00:23:35.375 --> 00:24:20.000 Um, in my career? Or just, what was, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. I was looking at my note up before that. I just said at the end, I wrote myself a little note about my area of focus. "It's fun and entertaining, but it's also much more than that." I talk to students. First of all, it's more than just the steps. We're not gonna just learn phrases in here and look in the mirror. I wanna add that students freak out 'cause in many classes we're like, let's close the curtains. Like, we don't always have to--and that's the somatic aspect, okay, is can you feel this movement? Why are you staring at yourself in the mirror? The mirrors can be very helpful, but, so I just wanted to sort of add that. 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.743 So the, the question, the question was, as a professor of dance, what does scholarship and creative activity look like to you? 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:36.664 Oh. 00:24:36.664 --> 00:24:47.233 And, and one, so in your CV, you also give example, a lot of examples of curated performance processes.And so are those things related? 00:24:47.233 --> 00:29:24.000 They are, for me, but in terms of teaching, I think it relates again to students who find--for our students here--is to find the connection of what dance does for the world and how it is universal. And if it's not, it's because it's being policed, right? By a government that won't allow dance. And like, where are we going now? So the scholarship in dance is about the awareness of what the body can do, like in music or visual art. You know, like we have art history, but we only have dance historians that take it really seriously. And there's tons of books now about dance. But in terms of curation, that's like a separate thing. Yeah. So my own scholarship has been that I've done a lot around--writing about contact improvisation and presenting on that. But I often combine my creative projects with political and historical research. So, for example, a project that was before--that I didn't curate, that I was invited on was like a European project based on a fictional choreographer named Veronika Blumstein. So I ended up spending like two years on that. And then she comes back every now and then, came back during COVID. I was like, okay. Somebody invited me 'cause they were interested in my work with Veronica. And so these Polish and German artists and one person from Slovenia came together in a research project. And they didn't know what to do. And for some reason, at the time, the zeitgeist at the time was a really, like a lot around healing in terms of World War II and the European Holocaust and genocide there. And so, and then the Polish people were so impacted by the war in another way. So this opened up a huge pot of research for me by looking into Veronika Blumstein. And I lived in Europe, but I had never gone into some of my own personal roots. And so I did a lot of ancestral work at the time. And then through that project many things came up because they wrote a fictional--they wrote about a fictional character who happened to be a Jewish woman who escaped and went to New York and studied with all these people that were like part of my own dance lineage. So it became a lineage project. So in that way, I was like weaving together all of these different things. Now, like curation is kind of, I'm, it happens globally, but I know it because I've spent so much time in Europe, like this kind of careful 'cause curation--because they have different funding sources. So in the US, our, the field of dance curation has grown so much and it's--there's so many amazing people doing great projects. But my work in curation, well, I just recently did this Think Gravity Project, which we'll talk about. But I did a big project called the Live Legacy Project. And so I was invited by a former classmate of mine from the school I went to in Holland Center for New Dance Development, which became European Dance Development Center. And we did a whole cultural history on how dance migrated from US and Ukraine, uh, Ukraine--US and the UK through the Dutch school into Germany. So she was living in Germany and the German government gave a huge sum of money to this curation. So we had a symposium that resulted in a film, but we brought together many dance elders and then the younger generation. So it was a big intergenerational project. So we had workshops. So we did everything at the symposium. It wasn't a talking symposium. We had the workshops, intensives alongside the talks, alongside the films. But everybody went to everything. So it wasn't like, I will choose at a conference, it would be like a symposium for a hundred people. And then they came to everything. It was very, very well documented. They all experienced everything together. Yeah. So it's like educational and creative all at once and people got to share their work. Okay. So in that way, like the curation is a way to bring about a living archive. So I'm interested in curation that's very much alive. Does that make sense? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.222 It does. 00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:35.275 Okay. There's a lot of topics we're we're hitting now, so I hope they're making sense. 00:29:35.275 --> 00:29:47.000 They are. So, you talk, have talked a lot about, you know, previous to this interview about your involvement with Arts and Lectures on campus. 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.809 Yes. 00:29:48.809 --> 00:30:02.505 And so, like a more broad question is what does campus and community service look like in your career over the years? But I know that Arts and Lectures, you know, we talked about as being a substantial-- 00:30:02.505 --> 00:33:42.000 Yes. Well, before I get into Arts and Lectures, what's interesting is I'm flashing now to David Avalos, who was a mentor for me. And, he really helped me when I arrived here, especially with my file, because I, like my service and my scholarship and my teaching all intertwined. And the committees at first didn't really get that. So he had me write this intro and it was really helpful. And so I also share that forward with other people I'm on committees with because it's known now. But even twenty years ago when I was a PhD student, we didn't do a practical PhD. Now there's many practicing dance PhDs. And at the time, one of the most famous godmothers of dance studies, my mentor, Susan Foster, said, Karen, you need to put dancing aside for a while. Get reading, get writing. And I didn't really do that at the time. I still was, I had a very active performing career, and I was curating with a group called Lower Left in San Diego. So it's just like doing way too much. But that's what I did for a large, most of my life. So it's that intertwining of these things that I think is really important. That my service here was always intertwined with my own work in the classroom. Because also, I was performing with students or creating performances with students both at the, in the early years. And it was like, that was my service. I didn't get course release or it wasn't counted as a class, even though I was teaching a class or a project that added another ten hours a week for six to eight weeks. So that's what we do, though. We dance. You gotta make the work. It doesn't fit into a four hour a week class. So my service really got intertwined entwined with dancing. But then I got involved right away because I had been curating in Europe. I had been cur--you know, when I was teaching at the clown school was my first curating. And then I, when I arrived here, I got involved with Bonnie Biggs from the Library, who was running Arts and Lectures, and she invited Mtfiti Imara, Dr. Imara, to do a performance. So that was another big project. He did a--he created a song that was called Power to the People. And I had a group of dancers. It was all extracurricular in our first year. We did a big performance at Center for the Arts in Escondido. It was amazing. And then Bonnie--oh, and then another curatorial thing was happening was Dr. Andrea Liss, who I collaborated with a lot, and Dr. Kristine Diekman. I mean, excuse me. Not Dr. Professor. (Kristine. I love you. You know, it's just as important. what you've done.) Okay. So they were doing a women's rights symposium. So in my second year or my first year--I can't remember, it's in the flyer (points to flyer). It was a really wonderful symposium. So I made a student piece for that, intergenerational. I was on a panel and then I also performed, they invited me. I did this piece in the late nineties called Monster Girl. And it was a very pop piece, feminist piece. And I wore, like, you know, I was standing on a Tide box and doing my soapbox and dancing to Mission Impossible. And it was just like wild. Blue wig-- 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000 I saw the box up there-- 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.882 Oh yeah. Blue wig. Oh-- 00:33:44.882 --> 00:33:45.617 --that says Monster Girl. 00:33:45.617 --> 00:36:43.000 Oh yeah. It has the handcuffs in it, too. I mean, it was just like this kind of rant about women's rights. And so they knew I did the piece. Kristine had actually seen it at Sushi Performance and Visual Arts in '98. So they invited me to perform that. So I kind of came off and running, like performing, early on a lot. I performed a lot less as the years grew on, and I became more administratively driven. So yeah, so that was a curatorial piece. And then Meryl Goldberg picked up Arts and Lectures, and I was on the committee when she was interim. And then she got started in Center ARTES, so I came on and that was a big part of my service for the University. I worked with Marilyn Huerta for many years and for about--I think I was running it for five years. I used to call myself the unofficial Director 'cause they didn't give me that position. That's what--didn't really didn't compensate me. It was just my service, but I can tell you it was more than nine hours a week. And we did between thirty-nine and forty-two events a year for many years. And even the language that's on the website, I'm like, maybe you should update it. No offense (no shade there, Gina, or the committee). Hey, if it's still working, I'm honored. You know, Meryl also came up with some of those, uh, invoke, inspire. So, but I really brought so many performances to this campus. I mean, Dance has always done at least two a year, but I could tell you this year, we got an IRA grant this school year. We did, I don't know, but there must have been--but I have other faculty working with me. So, but Dance Studies probably hosted at least twelve major public events open to the public. So a lot. So it's big. And then my other service to the campus was, I mean, I created the program. I wrote twenty-eight courses. Of course, they're not all offered. There wasn't any, there was a, few courses on the books, and I did keep one called Global Modern Dance, which I think is very sophisticated. Don Funes wrote that when he founded the program. And, I mean, I guess you probably have knew, you already know the history of this program. It started off as an interdisciplinary program, and then there was the desire to branch out into our own disciplines. But there's always been a desire to work cross-disciplinary and interdisciplinary. and Dance always does. We work with theater, we've worked with visual art, we've worked with literature and writing, we've worked with women's studies, we've worked with theater. And so I've done many projects with all of the faculty. I was actually hired as a collaborator that wasn't going--the job description was to be a collaborator. Even though it was for somebody in dance, was to be a collaborator. So I did that. I definitely did that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Yeah, you did. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.264 Yeah. Am I talking too fast, also? 00:36:48.264 --> 00:36:50.815 I think that you are doing just fine. 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.025 Okay, great. Okay. It's a lot. 00:36:55.025 --> 00:37:13.000 Okay. So you've done a substantial amount of international work, and you talked about your desire to live overseas and not be a tourist. And--but how has that work outside of the United States contributed to your development in the field? And you've already kind of touched on this. But if there's anything else you'd like to say. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:40:30.235 Well, to lift up our campus with the, especially with what's going on right now in the world i--the goal is for us to be global citizens. Isn't that part of our mission still? And so learning about other cultures and living elsewhere gives one that lived experience of intercultural exchange, opens your world perspective. It demands one to be flexible and adaptable. I'm open to new ideas. So it's really enriched my life a lot. And it's given me a lot of empathy, compassion, inspiration, all of those things for ways of being in the world. And, I mean, I've primarily worked in Europe, but I've also--I've been to Mexico a few times on some big projects. And those were really, really wonderful experiences. And because our campus is in, you know, our demographic is so Latinx, that it's really important for me to have firsthand experiences there. So I've traveled personally there, but I've also done artistic project projects there. And it's been an incredible experience. Most recently, I went to Pachuca with Kristine Diekman. And we did an incredible project with sound and movement and electronic art. It was really amazing. So that was so great. And it was based on Day of the Dead. And even though I'm not from that culture, people are super open, and I learned so much at the time. And in fact, my mom had just passed, and so they were like--there were ofrendas everywhere. It was very meaningful for me. I got to learn a lot. So it's like just stepping out of one's, where one's from, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think it's super important and I--really sad to hear that programs like that are in jeopardy right now in our country. 'Cause it's like huge. It's a win-win for everybody. So, but yeah, I've had really amazing experiences overseas. I mean, the school I went to in Holland, we were seventy students from twenty-three countries. So it was on one hand chaotic. But on the other hand, we were from a lot of different cultures, but our language was dance. So we were really in the room together and just, and, you know, there was a lot of nonverbal relational experiences. And so that's where dance comes in as its own language. And it's not a universal language, even though we all have, you know, not all, but many of us, or most of us who are fortunate enough to have our four limbs and or five limbs if you count your spine and your whatever, you know, count many, many limbs. But it was, it was a life changing experience for me. And I had traveled one year. I had traveled in my gap year as well, too. So it was an experience. Yeah. Very big travels (unintelligible). 00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:56.255 Okay. So now turning in earnest to your time at CSUSM--you've been a faculty member on campus for twenty-four years. You already talked about what brought you to CSUSM, but what has been the evolution of CSUSM for you and your time here? For example, what did dance on the campus look like in 2001 compared to now? 00:40:56.255 --> 00:42:50.000 Okay. Yeah. Like I mentioned, I had another offer in Idaho. I mean, I had a lot of interviews, so I was very fortunate for that. I got two offers, and it was kind of like no brainer. It was like, ah, this is just opening. There's so much potential. There were a few courses on the books and they were taught by a lecturer named Terry Sprig, to honor her. She's a dance artist, local. I don't know if she's making work still. So she taught a few classes, but I don't even know to the extent. But as soon as I came in, they gave us, it was, days were different. They were like, okay, you have ten days--they don't tell you us before you get hired--you have ten days to get the courses you want to teach on the books. We're gonna be fast tracking those in in UCC (University Curriculum Committee). I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it's called then. So I wrote some quick courses, and one of the courses I wrote was Women in Performance: Choreographies of Resistance 'cause that really came out of my research and my dissertation. And I did a lot of work on circus when I was in grad school. Even though I did contact improvisation, I did a lot of work on physical culture, the turn of the century, the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. So I got to put that class on the books. I put on a technique class and--but there was like, there was only like three classes. One was Global Modern Dance, which we kept, or was it Cultures in Motion? There was a few. Cultures in Motion we kept, too. Upper division general ed. And then, you know, Bill Bradbury was the chair, and he was like, you need an intro course, so write it. So we like--literally, I'm teaching three courses and then I had to write-- 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 --this curriculum. All this curriculum. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. But now it's, now it's really challenging. It's great. We don't get a lot of allocations because of how the students have a shopping cart and how they, how they go through the system. 'Cause we're still a Dance minor. So when I got here, there were only a couple of classes on the books. And I was offered the opportunity within the first ten days, faculty when we arrived, you jump in, you teach your three courses and you get on a committee and then we'd like you to write the courses you'd like to teach in the next ten days. I'm like, okay. So I did that. I know that one of the courses I wrote was called Women in Performance: Choreographies or Resistance 'cause I was really fresh outta graduate school. This was my research of feminism and performance. And so I taught that class for like twelve years. Really exciting. And it became a general--upper division general ed class. And I'm looking forward to teaching it when I come back FERPing (Faculty Early Retirement Program) actually, 'cause I haven't taught it for a while. And then I put technique classes on the books, and then we all were putting in these intro classes. So I put an Intro to Dance class on the books. I think at that time, it might have been a year or two later. It's hard to remember, but I wrote twenty-eight classes over time.mI am grateful to the Dean's office when Michael McDuffie was there and Ranjita Basu, and Michael gave me great advice on how to create curriculum that would satisfy many things. So I had a lot of topics courses at the beginning and things like that. So, I've also--one of the most popular classes--the program has grown in just so many ways. So we were just me. And then there were me one lecturer. And then at one point there were me and like five or six lecturers. And then it was down to just me and like two lecturers, you know, with the ups and downs of the, of our economy. And now we are just--it's been a wonderful group of people. We're five people. In fact, two of them are, one of them just got their PhD as well from UC Riverside. And another one is getting their PhD, Cuauhtemoc Peranda. And Dava Hernandez just got her degree too. So, and then we have Nhu Nguyen and we have finally got a new hire because that was supposed to be related to the development of our own major. And so after many years, Dance got another tenure track line. And so I'm working with Cheri Hill, doing great job and will be the next leader of Dance Studies. I'm really excited about that. Sheri comes with a lot of experience as a teaching artist, and she's worked in the field of arts and ed and dance and education. So before she came, I had already been working with Liberal Studies and Meryl Goldberg on creating a class that would feed Liberal Studies. So we do actually six courses a year that feed Liberal Studies. So that's great. But it's also, we are losing some of our allocations. So it's hard, but it's great. It's great for the field, it's great for the students. And I'm really excited about the way that's really grown. The other area of the program that's grown is like, the diversity of the kinds of classes we wrote, that I wrote, over the years. So I really tried to--we're not doing, like--we're not doing ballet, modern, and jazz, you know. We had hip hop. It declined. We're gonna have--Cheri just wrote a new course. We're gonna have a wonderful new intro to hip hop class coming on that's related to, it's called Hip Hop Fundamentals. So it'll really meet the criteria of general ed. And then we will learn about the history of hip hop and alongside the commercial aspects so, and the very, the strong politics of the field. So we're really doing a lot. And then I'm really proud of a class that I co-wrote called Contemporary Folklorico. So that course has been on the books for almost ten years now. And I wrote it with Alfonso Cervera, and he was a student over at UC Riverside as well, and now is teaching at Ohio State. Amazing job. Amazing leader in dance in terms of Latinx work. And so that class is one of our most popular classes. We teach five or six sections a year, too. And I'm really proud of that because it really meets our demographic here and serving our Hispanic service--our Hispanic learning institution goals. So I just think it's very important that dance just stays--it's an alive field. So it's also, it's not the course--like there were other institutions where you might go work and they would--at least 20 years ago--they would just hand you the book and they're like, here, teach this dance appreciation class. But I've always been like, no, you teach what you know, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna teach some breadth. So when I hire faculty, I make sure that they can teach the breadth of the field and touch on many things, but they can really focus in on their, on their areas of research. So Cuauhtemoc, for example, is really--their p PhD is on voguing. And so they're really teaching the students like the history of voguing, the roots of voguing, the political significance of voguing. And so it touches on a lot of different things in terms of sociology and political science and history. And so we do all of that. So all of the dance classes have built in a practice-theory component. So there's always something, whether it's just a project that's embodied--so the students step out outside of the box and have to do something physically--that you know, that they're able to do. So it's a very active learning environment in Dance Studies. And that's really different here. And I think school--other schools have grown into that, but I was able to start that off at the ground. And so I'm actually really proud of that. This program really fosters that way of learning. So we're not just like watching a movie, we're gonna, at some point you're gonna get up and either make a movie or do a documentary and step into what the work is. Yeah, so we're moving towards a major. Unfortunately it didn't pass UCC, and Cheri is leading that and I'm working with Cheri on that. And we're looking at it as really like a degree that meets many branches of the field. So we still wanna' be creating and nurturing those that wanna' be dance makers. We're also meeting the field of arts and education, integrative arts and learning, and also social justice. So, we could say that word (unintelligible). Social justice. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.835 Absolutely. 00:49:50.835 --> 00:49:55.625 Yes. All of those things are a threat today, so-- 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:55.848 Yeah, of course. 00:49:55.848 --> 00:52:55.000 But that's what we do. And you know I will say like every course that got passed here has the word diversity in it because that's what we do in dance. Dance is a diverse field. And even though I'm a white woman, I mean, from the beginning I always started with Black dance in America because when I taught lower division general ed, because our country is built upon the history of African people. So, dance is so infused with the migrant experience from so many different cultures. So, and then over the years, we have done a few things with American Indian Studies as well. So we're, we're working, we're working it here on our campus. We do a lot of outreach. So whoever we're bringing in is working that way. It's very integrative. So just this semester I'm really proud of a project. Can I say a little bit more about that? In terms of curriculum? So, I always brought guest artists here. And because it's really important for students to meet people working in the field outside of the institution--even though I am working outside of the institution in the summers and in general with my research. But, so I've always brought in guest artists through Arts and Lectures but also through Dance Studies through grants and things like that. So we started off with a very small lab budget, and it's grown. So I have a little line item to bring in guest choreographers. So I've brought in some amazing people. Many of them my teachers. And so those projects really influence the curriculum. So even though we might offer a choreography class, students can take it three times because it'll be different every time. Yeah. And this year, we brought Dancing Through Prison Walls, and it was just a very profound experience. So, I got a nice grant from IRA (Instructionally Related Activities fund) and Arts and Lecturers, and they came, and we did a residency. So again, in terms of like the hours with dance--and I my offer students alternatives if they're working and they can't make it--but they, I always, for the last, before COVID, there were three years and, yeah, three years of artist residency projects. So artists would come and they would either stay with me or friends, or last year we got a little grant money, they could get their own Airbnb. But I put up several artists over the years and they'd make a piece with students and they would leave and then either I or another faculty member would nurture that. And Anya Cloud and I did that for several years together. We did that for three years, where artists would come for a week and then they would leave and then we would rehearse and nurture the piece all the way through the spring dance concert. So yeah. The spring dance concert is our culminating event. Yeah. It's amazing. Very big event. Did I answer your question? 00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:30.304 You did. Okay. So this is a little bit more general, but ,it sounds like, from what you've talked about and your history, that you could have chosen different paths when it comes to dance. Different career paths in terms of what you did with that. Or even back to the high school, right? Like what would've happened if you had gone to the performing arts high school? But you chose a career in higher education. How has that lived up to your expectations? 00:53:30.304 --> 01:03:00.324 Wow. Good question. I have to say I'm super grateful because at least in the U.S., there's not very many jobs in dance. I'm extremely grateful to have a salaried position in the beginning, a pension. So I don't take that lightly. And, yeah. That's big. And there's not that many jobs in dance and higher education. So I feel very, very fortunate that I got this job as well. And that's why when I got it, I mean, I take it very, very seriously. There's a lot of work to be done in the field. And this--I don't even like the word fighters--but everybody working in dance and higher education is, we're fighting for it all 'cause the resources are less and less, unless you're in certain institutions. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. So I worked really hard, I realized. My mom used to even say--'cause I, when I was chair also of VPA (Visual and Performing Arts) for a year and a half, almost two years. Interim chair. And I would go see my parents on spring break 'cause they're from the East coast. And so I'd bring my computer and my mother would be like, You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. So, yeah, I mean I worked a lot. I worked way more than forty hours a week in this job, like way more. And I don't have any regrets. I'm a little tired, maybe, but I know I'll refuel. Hence retiring a little sooner than I thought I was going to. 'Cause we'll probably get to that question, I imagine. Somewhere along the way. But, you know, our campus has grown a lot, but we all in the School of Arts are working hard. You know, we, how do I say this? Lots of gratitude, but we've all, you know, we've all talked about how we need space, how we need a theater. Our university has grown to a size that we're really ready for--I'm not so fixed on dance has to be in a theater. But we do need a place. So I think dance could grow more and could have grown more had we had a space. So we have a beautiful studio that doubles as a black box theater and we share it with Theater. But that's all we have. So, and then we use--Music, Theater, and Dance share the theater, the performance hall that was designed for music. So that's been hard. And so it's like, it gets to be, I used--I don't even use the expression anymore, but for like five, the last five years, I'm like, broken record. Like, we cannot, how, you know, what do you need? Or, you know, if I'm writing with Cheri, the needs that we'll need to have a major, and just because we write we need space doesn't mean that that should halt the major. We have to keep moving forward. But it's that whole what what comes first. It doesn't really work in today's economy, but dance is more important than ever, I believe. And I think the, our SoCal and our nation's culture around dance has changed so much in positive ways. With social media and many things. I'm like, wow. You know, and when I, you know, there was like ten years where people are like, do you watch Dancing With the Stars? When it came out. And I'm kind of like, no you know, like I don't have time to watch that show. Or, you know, like, oh I'm going to the theater this weekend. Because I'm really into promoting for students live art, live dance. Students, when they go and see a show here, they've never been--so many students.have never been to the theater. And it's like, so I really, I'm so grateful for my parents that I had that experience. And again, we weren't, I was from a very working class family, but it was a priority for my parents. And my mom used to take me to Brooklyn College. So I saw like really traditional, amazing Black dance in America throughout the seventies. I mean, my dance education was really opened by having my grandparents in New York and going in and out of New York. And my mother would just take me to these things that I probably would never have seen before. So, I just think the live art experience is really important, and I think our University could be cultivating that more. So that's an expect--that's one criticism. Like we had a President who called it the crown jewel, and it really is, and it could be more of a cultural hub. So that, but otherwise, you know, like I'm super grateful. It took me a long time to get to the pro--dance program. So I worked for fifteen years just doing what a program director does but not compensated for that. I just built the program because what else was I gonna' do? Everybody else was building around me. So I'm like, okay, well build a program. So I kind of floated around a little bit. So I reported to Visual Arts for a while and, but I was still doing the work of being a director. So it's really my--the art. When we sent things up to CAPC (Curriculum and Academic Policy Committee), there was a year that, my colleagues stood up for me and said, It's now time for dance to get a hire. So, to be a program. And then there was the moment where to get a hire--so I was, dance got ranked finally for a hire--but that took like five years once the School of Arts stood behind dance, moving up the line. So there was just many, many years where I was carrying everything. You know, I had a great colleague in Anya Cloud did a lot, and Cherie Hill is doing an amazing job. And all of the lecturers right now are above and beyond. But I also, and I also give them autonomy to do what they want. First of all, I can't do it all on my own anymore, but it's like, in terms of positionality, you know, we're very, we've got a wide spectrum of cultural identities and ethnic identities in our makeup of our program. And that's really important. And so for me, it's like I need to step aside what other people bring, people who they wanna' bring. Even though we always had conversations, I was kind of carrying it. But that now I'm able to find a little pot of money so that they can get a little stipend for curating something that they wanna' bring. So I'm really--contact improvisation at it's heart is about horizontal politics, so I lead with horizontal politics here. And I always have too much information. I send too many emails after the Dean's meeting, even though they're lecturers, I'd send them what's going on because we're, we say we're small and mighty. So in order for the program to grow, let the young people come forward as well. Though I do believe in intergenerational, but I also believe, you know, let the young people come forward. And Cheri is doing and also she's gonna do a great job. And she's already done so much since she's here. So, I trust that it's gonna carry forward. I don't know in what ways, but I'm open to that. You know, and I think I, I believe and have faith that the School of Arts is in full support of Dance. I have great colleagues. I've done many things, but we're all working really hard so--but it's just a great group of people. It always has been. So what was the question? Has CSUSM lived to my exectations? Well, yeah. I would say yes. And yet we know we really, we do need some more space, and I wish we had more allocations 'cause we can't build the min--we can't build the major unless we get the classes. And then you can't get the classes if you can't offer them. And you can't get, you can't offer them if the students don't sign up for them. So there was that moment where the shopping cart card came forward for students. I don't think that was great. I liked when we used to do--it was a lot of work. And even I didn't have a program I used to advise for Visual and Performing Arts. So I would have my own list. You know, the chair would say, Karen, here's your list. You're gonna advise all these people. Okay, what, what do they need to take? You know, they're visual arts students. But these halls used to be full, lined up, you know, when we'd be registering for classes. So you'd get to really meet the students, but then you would ensure that all these classes are gonna be full. But now the students, it's a different climate, but, you know, I can't change the system, so-- 01:03:00.324 --> 01:03:04.231 Bringing on the technology and you know, having-- 01:03:04.231 --> 01:05:40.445 it's great. But it's also, I think students, they need the advice and the opportunity to sit down with not just advising, but here. I think I'm taking a tangent from the--okay. So I hope, I hope that the, I hope that, yeah. I've also, the other thing that I've done with the curriculum that I've been en enabled to do with some amazing colleagues on our campus is create community engagement projects. I didn't really talk about that, but I did a few highlights. I did-- I started the collaboration with A Step Beyond, and our dean is now on the board, a fairly new dean, Dean Leora Gubkin. And for five years I taught a class over there. So, and that really ties into our dance and education pathway that may or may not grow into directly into that, but it's a great opportunity for students. And Meryl is working with Cheri and other faculty on this big arts and education certification. Arts certification project. So we're really in that already. And then I've gotten a few students jobs over at A Step Beyond. And so that was great. And I worked with Community Engagement. I got a little stipend at one point to work with them and create a course that was specific to working with them called Dance in the Community. That was inspired by Kristine Diekman as well. She did a big video in the community project for many years that always inspired me. She made public service announcements with like, so many underserved communities in our area. And so she's always been like, how do you do that? So she, she lit the way for me, so I wanna' acknowledge her also in this interview. So there was that. And then I did, I worked with Veronica Anover and worked at the Glenner Town Center, which is an Alzheimer's day center. And we did a whole project there. And then I did another fundraiser over at the Conrad Prebys theater in La Jolla. So I've done a few big community projects. I worked with the Museum of--it was called Museum of Man then--at Balboa Park. And I worked with Judy Bauerlein, and we brought guest artists there, and we did big project there. So I think those kinds of experiences for students are so important. 01:05:40.445 --> 01:05:45.172 Yeah. And a lot of like community feelers and outreach. 01:05:45.172 --> 01:06:24.000 Yeah. And bringing community to campus, too. I've brought a lot of community to campus 'cause I brought some well-known artists here. So different schools would come here. I worked with NCHEA (North County Higher Education Alliance) as well for like five years in my early days. And we did some really big projects. We brought legendary Donald McKayle here. He was at UC Irvine. He was already in his late seventies, early eighties when he came. I think it was early eighties. And he was the Alvin Aileys teacher. And so we've done, we've done some big things. I'm sure there will be more big things. Yeah. So to our little campus, we've done some big projects. 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:59.605 That's right. Okay. So this is changing gear a bit. Okay so my, the overarching question is what did you do during Covid? But in our pre-interview you mentioned, you talked about the double pandemic and that the Covid-19 virus increased awareness of systemic racism. So the question really is what did you do during Covid? When we were all kind of locked inside-- 01:06:59.605 --> 01:14:20.635 Well, I did a lot during Covid. I--with the rise of Black Lives Matter and the murder of George Floyd, you know, everything stopped in certain ways. And I immediately, you know--for a moment--and then I immediately gathered with other colleagues in School of Arts, a few of us, we worked the entire summer to create a series. We got some money from the dean's office through some donors, through the Wagner family. And we used all of that money to program online lectures and performances. So that was like a big project. I don't know. We did at least nine, ten events per semester that was open to whole campus. But we really geared it towards School of art students to get them, to get them going. And it was, at that time during COVID, too, there was a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) project that I worked that Mtifiti Imara invited me to be part of. So I worked with a faculty member.So the artist that we worked with was T. Lang. And we also worked with Melicia Taylor, who's become a friend and collaborator Melicia was a lecturer here in Music. So Melicia was also hired. So these are significant Black artists. Melicia is a sound designer and an opera singer. And Melicia came here and brought compositions. And we did a piece with, I think it was my choreography class. It was choreography or improvisation. We did a dance film called I Am, and the students did their own choreographies at home. And then she worked with a filmmaker to sew it together. So we did a film. I brought another artist. We were still in--well we were just opening--Jose Abad from San Francisco, another Black artist. So I brought a lot of--working with a lot of Black artists to campus. I was doing that. like I said, I've been doing that all along. But it was really a focus on that with HBCU--our campus relationship grew with that. Cheri just did that project this year. So yeah, I was really amazed at that. And we worked with students. We came in even though the campus was on lockdown. We got permission to come in and students got to work with some of these choreographers over Zoom and made their own works. So Skyla Miles and Minnie Atkins both made work, both alum from Dance Studies with, during this HBCU project. Also brought, Mayfield Brooks, who was very known in New York and in Europe and South America, and well, globally, for her work with--she calls it improvising while Black. And she has written a lot and did a lot of projects around Black culture and survival and things. So yeah, it was very, very prolifically busy and happening. And then at the same time, I was gearing up for my sabbatical application. And so even though we were in, still in Covid, I wrote my application to do this project called Think Gravity Dance Tank. So that was really involving--it was happening still during Covid. And we had a symposium and it was taking on the 50th anniversary of contact improvisation. So that's my, it was almost a continuation. It's kind of is a continuation of what I wrote about in my PhD in 2001 about contact not being universalist and who writes the history. So we brought forward some less recognized histories. So Ishmael Houston-Jones was my teacher in Holland way back when, in 1990. No, 1989. 1989. That's his brick (points to brick on window sill). He has a very famous bit called White Hope that he dances with this brick and he's danced with a brick internationally. And he's a very well respected artist. So it was a very creative way to do a curatorial project, where we invited four people, and we let them invite four people. And then we brought students. So Anya Cloud got a job at, in Boulder, University of Colorado. So they have a much bigger facility. So we did it there. And we had a week-long symposium, and we called it a reckoning with contact improvisation. And we stepped back 'cause we're both white women and we let everybody else lead. And, but we held the container and things like that. And then from that, we created a film because we had so much stuff. We had interview, we interviewed everybody, and then we had incredible footage. So we made a documentary. That documentary won best documentary at the Toronto Dance Film Festival. So we were happy with that. Or Contact Festival (Contact Dance International Film Festival) was just recently. And we've screened it in a few places, and it's gotten really good feedback. So it's a bit of a reckoning with the history in terms of who's identified 'cause contact improvisation is historicized as very white. Whereas its influences are very much based in African American culture, history and ways of working in jazz music and things like that. In terms of what is a jam, what is it to improvise. And then also there is a history of Eastern Asian American and Asian art influences in terms of what is yielding, what is gravity, what is meditation. So we brought in other voices to speak about cultural histories and positionality in terms of race and culture. So it was really, it was really productive and it was a deep experience. And it was cool 'cause we brought--I got student success funds from here and Anya got some money from her institution. So we involved, we were about twenty-six people, something like that. Between twenty-four and twenty-eight. But half of them were students. So it was really important to bring the future forward. So again, this was another project that really is based in intergenerational community and containers. And I'm really happy 'cause Makisig Akin is Philippinx and they took the model of curation and they did a whole BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) dance festival in Berlin, probably one of the first or of the first. And they used that model of curation and they were really, really excited that, to learn that way of curating. So there's that curating piece of mine, too, that yeah. People, if nobody curates, then you're not gonna' have the work, you know And we're, it's strong to curate one at a time, but it's also strong to curate symposiums that bring people togetherfor some time. Yeah. 01:14:20.635 --> 01:14:32.795 Okay. So do you have work, a work that you've accomplished in your career that has been most impactful in your opinion? 01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.704 Impactful on the field or-- 01:14:34.704 --> 01:14:35.805 To you. 01:14:35.805 --> 01:14:42.104 Oh, to me or to the field? 01:14:42.104 --> 01:14:46.305 Or both. 01:14:46.305 --> 01:16:17.000 Well, in terms of my training, my work with Debra Hay affected my perceptual improvisation very greatly. So Deborah Hay is a, still working artist and dance elder. And I studied with her, I saw her perform in Holland, but I wasn't in her class. And then I brought her with this group Lower Left that I worked with for many years in San Diego. So I've dipped in and out of her work. And I'm really proud that I recently got to perform with her in her work at the Getty. It was a re-dance, a recreation of a work from the sixties. So she was a very significant artist that emerged in the sixties. And she's continued to emerge internationally. So she really had a great impact on my career of how I dance. But I think--I don't know, it's such a hard question. I guess--now I'll get a little emotional because I guess creating the program is probably my biggest impact. I mean, it was a lot of work. 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.000 A lot of work. A lot of really important work. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:19:24.505 I hope University continues to support it. I mean, I think it had the greatest impact 'cause I--thousands of students have taken dance classes here. And I'm sure, because you can read it, some of them was whoa, but most of them always write in the evals, I didn't know dance could be like this, or I didn't know--I just can't imagine that we would talk about dance like this, or dance could be this way or this class--even if I'm not teaching it. But creating a program where the people are invited to teach what they love to teach, to teach what they know and but to also really keep bringing in this idea that we're gonna embody the learning. I think San Marcos is unique like that, and I think the way it's open has and its opening, is pretty unique. And, but I guess, you know, I've, and I've done Summer Arts as well, so I've worked within the system and I did six summers with Summer Arts. I did two as an artist. One was during my hire, one was before my hire. And that program is over. It just got closed. 'Cause one of the biggest things the State of California did for the arts was like, oh my gosh. But I think it's, I guess I never really thought about that when you said is there some favorite work? And I was like, favorite, I mean, you know, Think Gravity was enormous. Veronica was enormous. Live Legacy was enormous. You know? I had a big practice in San Diego with people for seven years. We met every Thursday researching dance, and then I'll show you after on the wall. Lower Left was huge part of my life. Holland, Riverside was huge. But I guess the biggest accomplishment or impact, the greatest impact would be I guess this Wow. I never thought about it like that. When I visited, when I was doing, um, the Deborah Hay work--Deborah Hay is friends with Susan Foster, who's the, who I referred to as the godmother of dance studies. I don't know if she'd like that title, but I'll give it to her. She was like--I went to visit her house. She was like, You did it. She, because I think when they took me into that program, I was a bit of a wild card card 'cause they took a lot of scholars. They didn't--at the time wasn't practicing PhD, but I was dancing, like really committed to dancing and performing still. And so I was a bit of a wild card. I didn't get the, I didn't get the scholarship, you know, the first year. I didn't get the teaching the first year. They took me, but they didn't give me the, they didn't give me the scholarship. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do this anyway and see how I like it. And so that, but she looked at me, she's like, You did it. 'Cause you know, I guess I did, right? There's a program here. So time to let it go to the next people. 01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:26.000 Well, that comes to the last question-- 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000 --the last question, I imagine-- 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000 which is-- 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.496 now you got me going. 01:19:30.496 --> 01:19:43.234 Oh it's. We want to, we want to get your feelings in there, too. What do you plan to do both personally and professionally in your retirement? 01:19:43.234 --> 01:23:27.185 Well, the first thing I want to do, and I am doing it, is slowing down a bit. I'm coming off of a season of lot of loss, too, a lot of loss of family. So yeah, I wanna' slow down. So I'm gonna slow down this summer and do some organizing. Continue to clean the office a little bit. And also, um, yeah, do some organizing. And then planning for my fall. I'm gonna go to Austria. I've been invited by my mentor, Donna Ray, who's a top-level Feldenkrais teacher. And she runs the institute in Vienna, the training institute. So I'm gonna' go with, there's a brand-new cohort starting. So I rented myself an apartment overlooking some park in Vienna, and it has a beautiful view of a park. And I'll walk through the park every morning and I, I'll be an assistant in the training. That means I'll be working basically. And I'm hoping that will really hone my skills even more so as I transition into retirement, I'm still gonna' be working. I'm not like retiring. So there's a woman who, as a dance legend, there's just many dance legends, you know, who work into their nineties. It's not like you stop. I really think I will always be working in the field in some way. I don't know what that is yet. I would like to curate in a theater, but they don't have those kinds of spaces in San Diego anymore, where you can just have a studio like that where you can. That's one of the things I would, I could imagine. So I'm gonna' do that and I'm gonna' go to visit a former student who's now a well-known Swiss actress and has a wonderful family. So I'm gonna' stay with her and watch her on the big stage and take a walk in the Alps. And then I'm going to do a vocal training. And it something--it's called Roy Hart. And I studied with them in San Francisco, one of their proteges. It's in a long line of lineage from the thirties and forties. And it's a vocal technique that was used in theater, like experimental theater, in the fifties and sixties. But it's also like, I'll use the word therapy. I'm not afraid of that. It's therapeutic as all art can be therapeutic, healing. Like let's transform. That's what we do in the arts, we transform. So I'm going to study some voice. And then when I come back, I'm already invited--there's a, I used to, I put myself through graduate school as a Pilates trainer, even though I'm not certified at Pilates. But I'm gonna bring Feldenkrais into their Pilates studio and do like a little one night a week class. And then, my friend Anya is up for--Anya and Mcsig are up for a big, NEFA, the New England Foundation of the Arts is one of the few funders that give fairly big money in dance in our country. They're a finalist if they get that they're doing an interdisciplinary dance project. And I guess I'll be performing. So that's the goal. The goal is to keep doing yoga, dance, walk, social activism. And I also like to paint and write. 01:23:27.185 --> 01:23:27.965 Wow. 01:23:27.965 --> 01:23:33.154 We'll see. There'll be a little more time for that. Yeah. 01:23:33.154 --> 01:23:36.994 I love that. You're gonna keep busy. 01:23:36.994 --> 01:23:41.045 Yeah, I'll be busy, but I've also, this summer, I'm gonna slow it down. 01:23:41.045 --> 01:23:51.000 And that's really good, too. So is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? 01:23:51.000 --> 01:25:41.064 I think what I would like to do though is we talked about taking a few photos. And I'm really happy--I guess what I'll say is that I'm really happy that the University's interested in this interview and maybe scanning some of the posters and all things that were presented. Maybe they can even use it to use it as fuel to get a theater or a bigger production venue. Or, or a unit that would like to take care of some of these things so that faculty don't have to do all that work, But I also, I guess I wanna' really honor the founding faculty. Maybe just take a moment. I could close with that. Everybody worked really hard, and I'm really honored to have been part of the upstart. And I hope and believe that our campus will keep on during whatever's going on in the world. And I really hope that the arts can really stay strong here. Yeah. I think we are such an incredible group of artists in the School of Arts, so I just wanna' wish everybody well and to keep on. And I really, I hope that students will--and faculty and committees and the administration will--see really the value of what Dance does. 'Cause dance is really, plays a big role in the world. And like I said, it can be a lot of fun, but it goes way deeper than that. 01:25:41.064 --> 01:25:57.645 Well, that's a really great note to end on. Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to thank you for allowing us to celebrate you and your career and every, all the hard work that you've done all of this time. And I know there's a lot more to come for you, but kind of at this milestone-- 01:25:57.645 --> 01:25:58.354 Thank you. 01:25:58.354 --> 01:26:01.805 --you know, moment for you. Just thank you for sharing with us. 01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:09.234 Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. 01:26:09.234 --> 01:29:28.000 There's a few projects that I'd like to highlight that were highly sponsored by the University and that had a great, also had a great impact on my life. And the first one is a project called United and Severed. I think that I will reach for the pamphlet to refresh myself on how important this project was. So I did this with Professor Kristine Diekman, and actually this project was really personal, but I was able to take a very personal experience--this is what artists do if you don't write memoirs, and they take it out into the world. And so it was following my own--I had a very severe traumatic injury while I was employed here. Lived through that. And I stood in as like a surrogate body on film for the topic of that window of time. So it deals with women and traumatic injury and PTSD. So at the time, I was also in close relationship with somebody who is working as a active--not active duty--non-active duty for the military, who was working around soldiers and PTSD and the Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq aftermath. And so Kristine and I looked for alum and students from our school, who were survivors of traumatic injury and how they dealt with it. And so Kim Anderson is--was in it and she was a CSUSM Liberal Studies major. And Ivy Kensinger was a student of mine and also Veronica Anover. She survived a horrific car accident on the way to campus. And turns out she is now a PhD in psychology. So very--came through in a miracle way. And we did a project that was a very poetic representation of movement and understanding disability. So that was featured. And we also worked with Butoh dancers because it was also during the time of some wild fires out in East County. So we took a group of students and we took down a tree from the extremities down to the trunk that was burned. And Richard Keeley is a professor, was a professor at San Diego State--is retired. and Anna O'Cain is a professor, visual art professor, who was working at Miracosta. And we did a huge project together that was featured at Center for the Arts Escondido. So I really wanted to highlight that. It was a very deep project. We have beautiful video footage. Kristine did an incredible job editing. I was sitting alongside her. She pushed all the buttons. Of course, it was really her editing that made the project so spectacular. And our work was featured in many film festivals internationally. So I just really wanted to mention that we have this beautiful artifact from that. And then the other project that I wanted to talk about was, um, wait a minute. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.315 Your palliative care work. 01:29:30.315 --> 01:30:59.000 Oh, my current work that I will continue when I'm, that I actually have a meeting in ten minutes for, that I'm working with Palliative Care--that's a pilot project--that's run by Michael McDuffie. And I'm working with Ranjita Basu and Andrew Spieldenner. And now we have a cohort of people from the Mindfulness Center working on it. And we're working with Elizabeth Healthcare Center, Elizabeth Hospice Center. And we're doing a once-a-month project on mindfulness. And so I'm bringing in the somatic piece. So really it's been a great, We've been working on that together for about a year and a half. And now we're enacting it over there in Escondido. And next week we'll have our third monthly session, and it will go through the year. So I will be still staying involved as a volunteer for that, while I'm off the books. And so I'm very happy to be doing practical applications in different fields. And that connects as I interweave everything that I've said today, that you know, that what I do with dance and what I believe dance can do in the world has a great impact because we're working with the body and compassionate empathy. We all have a body. We're always moving, even if it's, we're just, we're down to the breath. Breath is movement. And so with that, I'll just take a breath and say thank you. 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.000 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-084 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Regina Eisenbach OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. higher education;women in leadership;Western Association of Schools and Colleges;mentorship;administration OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. SC027-085 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm higher education ; women in leadership ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; mentorship ; administration Regina Eisenbach Jennifer Fabbi moving image EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1b6dd8309f4ca65c7028d0d2f151d601.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood and adolescence Eisenbach reflects on her childhoood. She was born in Puerto Rico but is of Cuban descent. She was very close with her parents. She attended University of Miami for her undergraduate degree. San Juan, Puerto Rico ; Cuban ; only child ; Miami ; Massachusetts ; University of Miami ; Gainesville 0 175 College experience Eisenbach's undergraduate degree was in psychology after which she started a PhD program in Management Studies in the COllege of Business at University of Miami. psychology ; academic ; business ; organizational behavior ; calculus ; Program in Management Studies 0 399 Eisenbach meets her spouse Eisenbach met her husband at the same time as she started her PhD program when she was twenty years old. They have now been together since 1987. Hialeah, Florida ; Madonna ; young ; girlfriend 0 509 Moving to San Marcos Eisenbach found out about a faculty position at CSU San Marcos from her PhD advisor. She interviewed a few places but ended up accepting the job at CSU San Marcos. Her plan was to be in San Marcos for two years and to move back to Miami. Chet Schriesheim ; young woman ; Dean Bernie Hinton ; faculty position ; marriage ; Spanish speaking ; Cal Poly Pomona ; Florida Atlantic University ; Len Jessop 0 878 CSU San Marcos when Eisenbach arrived When Eisenbach arrived at CSUSM, the "campus" was in an office park a few miles away from where the permanent campus would eventually be built. She was an instrumental contributor to the creation of the Business curriculum. She loved teaching, but research more of a challenge for her. College of Business Administration ; San Diego State ; curriculum ; research agenda ; teaching ; service ; Academy of Management ; administration 0 1232 Administrative path Eisenbach started on her path to administration early in her tenure at CSUSM. She reflects on the positions she has held and some of the ups and downs along the way. dean ; interim dean ; Kathleen Watson ; associate dean ; Mohammed Mustafa ; friendships ; challenges ; Dennis Guzman ; work-life balance ; disappointment ; provost ; Graham Oberem ; Patricia Prado-Olmos 0 1919 Role in Academic Programs Eisenbach was named as the Associate Vice President of Academic Programs (now Dean of Academic Programs) in 2013. In this role, she has overseen the academic catalog, the curriculum, assessment, and accreditation. In 2019, academic advising was added to her to her portfolio. catalog ; curriculum ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; Accreditation Liaison Officer ; accreditation ; dean ; asessment ; advising ; President Karen Haynes ; student affairs ; academic affairs 0 2112 Evolution of CSUSM After thirty-four years at CSUSM, Eisenbach reflects on its evolution. The building of the physical campus was a key milestone, and she was very closely involved with the building of the Markstein Hall. She also discussed the growth of the student body. Regina expresses her gratitude for getting to be a part of the evolution from the beginning and being able to build CSUSM for future generations. campus ; buildings ; Markstein Hall ; enrollment growth ; City of San Marcos ; infrastructure 0 2304 Becoming an academic Eisenbach discusses her unexpected path to a career as an academic. teacher ; academic struggle ; academic conference ; research 0 2449 High points at CSUSM and impactful work Eisenbach reflects on the high points and low points of her time at CSUSM. Highs include the opening of Markstein Hall, the great people she has worked with, and her son graduating from CSUSM. She also discusses her work and what she thinks has been most impactful. Markstein Hall ; Melissa Simnett ; reaccreditation ; son ; graduation ; Academic Advising ; Academic Programs ; Curriculog ; Acalog ; catalog ; curriculum ; pandemic 0 2742 People who have influenced Eisenbach's career Eisenbach gives credit to colleagues and mentors who have influenced her career over the years. Dennis Guzman ; Beverly Anderson ; mentorship ; women in leadership ; Pat Worden ; President Karen Haynes ; Kamel Haddad ; Graham Oberem ; Dawn Formo ; David Barsky 0 3034 Plans in retirement Eisenbach discusses her professional plans for retirement as she will be participating in the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Faculty Early Retirement Program ; Voluntary Separation Incentive Program ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; WASC accreditation teams ; Ecuador 0 Oral history Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Regina Eisenbach for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is July 1st, 2025 at 10:30 a.m. This interview is taking place at Regina's office on the CSU San Marcos campus. Regina, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Thank you. I'm honored that you asked. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Okay. So to start off, we'll start young. Can you tell me about your childhood and adolescence, for example, where you were born and a bit about your family? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:02:43.000 Sure. so I was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico by accident. I'm not Puerto Rican, but I'm actually Cuban. I'll get to that in a second. My dad was there on business. My mom went to go see him, and she was bedridden for six months to have me. And so she was in Puerto Rico and got stuck there basically. And so I was born there. I think that's telling because it shows the kind of parents that I had. So I was an only child and they'd lost--my mom miscarried four times before me, and after me, I had a brother who died after a day. And so my parents lost a lot of children. I was the only surviving kid, so they were, (tears up)--didn't think it would start this early. So they were very devoted to me. And you'd say overprotective, but as a young child, it was great. So we lived in, we moved to Miami early on and then moved to Massachusetts for a little bit, came back to Miami. And so I grew up in Miami from second grade all the way through college. And went to the University of Miami because when I graduated from high school, wasn't really ready to leave home. So went there and went to graduate school there as well, because I thought I might wanna' go away to grad school, and a little independence from my parents at that point when I was, you know, twenty or so. And when I said, Yeah, I think I might go to Gainesville or something, they'd say, oh, they said, Okay, we'll come with you. Okay. That defeats the purpose. So I think I will just stay here. And so I did. And so I went straight from my parents' house to my husband's house. I have never lived alone. So that also says a little bit about me. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:55.000 Okay. So you started to talk a little bit about your education. Can you tell me about your formal education, including your areas of academic focus? 00:02:55.000 --> 00:06:35.000 Yeah, so I my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I did my undergrad in three years. And so when I was, I graduated from college, I was, I wasn't even--I was twenty and wasn't ready to leave school. So I know some folks say that, you know, they always knew they wanted to be an academic or they always knew they wanted to be such and such. I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew is I wasn't ready to leave school. So I was looking for graduate programs. And I got word that this professor over in the College of Business was starting a PhD program in business. It was gonna be brand new in organizational behavior. And I thought, Okay, that's, you know, psychology adjacent, let's check this out. And one of those vivid memories I still remember and he did, too--what I was wearing the day that I went to see him 'cause I was wearing red high top Reebok sneakers. This was in 1980--Lord, '87. So yeah, I swear it was in style then. And I wandered into his office and he said, yeah, we're gonna start this new PhD program, but it'll be great. And so I said, sure, why not? So I got in, it was a full assistantship, so I didn't have to pay for it. I actually didn't have to pay for any of my education. It's something that I look back on. And I think, how did that work? Because my parents didn't make a lot of money. I got lot of scholarships. And so my undergrad was completely covered. And then the PhD program was a full ride. Truly blessed. Didn't really know at the time what a blessing it was. And so I thought, all right, I'll try this. And the PhD program, since it was brand new, I was the first student admitted. And there weren't classes for just us in business, so we took classes--there was, there were only two or three, there were a few IO (industrial organizational) psych students in the program at the time, but there was five of us total, if that. So we would take classes with the other PhD students and other disciplines. But when I started my PhD advisor said, Well, you haven't taken calculus. And I said, Yes, I know. That was intentional. He said, well, business folks have to take calculus. And so I did. As a graduate student, one of my classes was to take calculus with the freshmen. And I got an A minus, I still remember. So that first summer of the PhD program, since I didn't have an undergraduate degree in business, I had to take classes with the MBA students. And it was the name has since changed, but I am not even making this up. The program was called the PMS (laughter) Program in Management Studies. And it was basically a business bootcamp, so really condensed all of the basics of business. And I learned that I hated accounting and I hated economics, and I sucked at it. And I got my first Cs ever in school in those two classes. But overall, you know, I liked school and I liked the--I thought, Okay, I'll, you know, keep doing this. And so that's how I got into the PhD program. It wasn't anything premeditated, which is actually the story of my life. It wasn't a plan. It was just, Eh, this'll work out. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.000 And Regina, when did you meet your husband and where? 00:06:39.000 --> 00:08:19.000 I met him the day after I started the PhD program. So I was twenty years old. We both grew up in the same town in Hialeah, Florida. And met through a mutual friend. He, my friend and my husband worked at Marshall's together. And it was, the Madonna was going on tour, the Who's That Girl concert. And back in the day, he had to sleep in the parking lot. You may even be too young to remember this. You had to sleep in the parking lot to get concert tickets. And so my husband and my friend were sleeping for the Madonna tickets, and I was supposed to meet them in the morning to give them my money for my ticket and stand in line when they bought them. My husband had no idea. He just thought I was coming 'cause I was, you know, Rick--our friend's name was Rick--Rick's friend. And so I showed up. So we met in the parking lot of Westland Mall, very romantic. And I saw him, and the first thing I thought of was, He looks very young. And so I pulled Rick aside. I said, Rick, how old is this guy? He goes, no, I swear he is your age. Okay, great. Turns out he is, he's two days younger than I am. And it was, I mean, for me it was like, wow. Almost love at first sight. And so that was June 6th that we met. And we went out, we started talking on the phone every day. And we went out in a big group on June 12th, and he asked me to be his girlfriend. And we've been together ever since. 1987. 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Okay. So how did you find out about the CSU San Marcos faculty position? And what was the process of you moving here? 00:08:29.000 --> 00:14:25.000 So as I mentioned in my retirement speech, like one of those moments that just sticks in your mind. I was standing in my PhD advisor's office and his name was Chet Schriesheim. And my mom, who I alluded to, I'm Cuban. So my mom was raised in Cuba, born in Spain. My dad was Hungarian. And my mom had a very thick accent when she spoke English. And we used to joke that she had her own language 'cause the way she pronounced things so she could not say Schriesheim to save her life. So she called him Shoeshine. And so we all did. So I was standing in Shoeshine's office, and Shoeshine knew my mom called him Shoeshine. We got very close. He became--not that I needed a father 'cause my father was very, very strong presence in my life. But he became a father figure. So much so that his son was the ring bearer at my wedding. And so I was standing in his office and 'cause I was really young at the time, I remember I was, you know, twenty when I started grad school, I was twenty. And so he really, you know, made it a point of raising me in the academy as well as, you know, trying to prepare me for being a young, very young woman in this field. So anyway, I'm standing in his office and he, back then, it was all mail obviously. And so he got a letter from then acting Dean Bernie Hinton, who was founding faculty here who was recruiting. And so he sent letters to all the PhD chairs at institutions that he was familiar with. And so Shoeshine read the letter to me and it said do you know of anybody who wants to take on the opportunity of building the first new public university in twenty-five years in this country? And I said, Alright, I'll give it a shot. And so that's how I ended up interviewing here. And when I came to interview, I--so at the time, I was with Angel and we had already made plans to get married. And so we were looking at the job market together, and we said, We need to go someplace where people speak Spanish. And so ignorantly, now we know, we said, Oh, San Diego. Great. They speak Spanish there, and Mexicans, Cubans, same deal. Yeah, it's not at all. But we figured, all right, California would be, you know, pretty cool. So I interviewed at Cal Poly Pomona, and I interviewed here, and I interviewed at Florida Atlantic University in Boca. We didn't wanna' leave Miami, and we thought we never would leave Miami. And in fact, the, I was heartbroken to know that U of M wouldn't hire me 'cause they didn't, they really didn't like to hire their own grad students. 'Cause the plan was supposed to be, I was supposed to stay in Miami, and we were gonna buy the house next door to my parents. And that's it. We were gonna stay there. So I came out here to interview and remember somebody that, you know, picked me up, Len Jessop. He was on the faculty then went on to become UNLV's President. And he picked me up. There was no campus, it was Cal State Jerome's. He took me to the office park. None of that bothered me 'cause I was young. And he drove me down Barham, and they pointed at the dirt and they said, There's gonna be a campus there. Oh, great. And they showed me the drawing and all the things. And I remembered the people seemed to be a little younger as compared to Cal Poly Pomona, especially. A little younger. Very excited and super energized. And I thought, Wow, this is great. Too bad I'm never gonna' leave Miami. So the, I did get offered eventually the job at Cal Poly Pomona, but I thought, no, it's just the, the vibe was very traditional and it felt old to me. I was twenty-four. Everything feels old when you're twenty-four. And Florida Atlantic only had a visiting position, so Angel and I thought Well, we'll go to California for a couple years, and we'll come back 'cause by then something will have opened up. And so we did. And moving out here was--we got married August 2nd, moved out here August 12th, 1991. And it was one of the most traumatic things we have-I have--ever done, we have ever done. We got here, got to our apartment on Mission, still there. And had to buy everything 'cause we came with no furniture, nothing. So we went to Jerome's and we bought an apartment full of furniture, and went to the grocery store where the Stater Brothers is now. And got on a payphone, called home and said we wanted to come back. And we were going to 'cause we had bought round trip tickets because it was cheaper. And so we thought, All right, the round trip goes back in a week. We can, we can go. And we kind of thought we were 'cause it was just, it was heartbroken, it was the fir-- heartbreaking. It was the first time we had ever been away from our families. And Angel moved out here sight unseen. He had never even been to California. So thankfully, I think the next day I went onto into the office, I can't even say campus 'cause it was an office park. And saw the people again, got excited about the opportunity. And that's why we decided, All right, we'll give it, we'll give it the two years. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:38.000 And you've talked a little bit about this, but what was the entity, the organization, CSU San Marcos, like when you arrived? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Well, it was, there were no offices. So I was, you know, in a cubicle for the first, what, three years. Everybody knew, literally, everybody knew everybody 'cause it was tiny. When I got hired in COBA (College of Business Administration), there were eight faculty, and then four were hired when I got there at the same time as me. Three Asian guys and me. And it was--in some ways it's good that I was so young because I didn't know that I should be terrified because of everything that we had to do. They--the curriculum in COBA was basically just San Diego State's repackaged. And, but the Dean, Bernie at the time said, you know this is just a placeholder for us. We're gonna, and then the first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna create our own. Well, I didn't even know what curriculum was, so I had to go to the library to get a book to, because back then, PhD programs did not train perspective faculty in teaching pedagogy, curriculum design, or any of that stuff. It was straight up research. And by the way, my PhD advisor, Shoeshine, thought I was nuts to come here because he said, you are gonna' be overwhelmed with service. You're not gonna' be able to get your research agenda off the ground. And I said, Yeah, you know, two years, it'll be fine. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that just fell into place, me coming here because, you know--spirit of full disclosure--as far as the profession. I loved to teach. I was very good at it, not just to toot my own horn, but I was very good at it. And students loved me. I loved the students. So I was a great teacher. The research I could do. It wasn't my passion, though. And so coming here was a blessing in that way because I was able to lean into my strength, which was teaching and this whole new thing of service that as a faculty member or as a PhD student, I had no clue what that was about. Shoeshine used to call it administrivia, if he ever had to serve on a committee. And when I would go to conferences, the Academy of Management, and I would go to the PhD or the new faculty seminars, and I would talk to people and they would look at me like, You're doing what? You're on what committee? What? And they thought I was insane. But looking back, it was the best training for an administrator that you could ever have as a faculty member. So I, you know, unbeknownst to me, I was kind of on this trajectory towards becoming an administrator without even knowing it. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:43.000 Okay. So your focus for the first years of your career was in the classroom. And what did you teach? And then what was the focus of your research and service, which you've spoken to a little bit, but anything else you'd like to add? 00:17:43.000 --> 00:20:20.000 Yeah, so I taught management and organizational behavior. And I taught IO (industrial organizational) psych in the early days. And I taught H--I think I taught HR once, but mostly it was the basic organizational behavior class. And the classrooms were storefronts back then. So there was a glass in the back and there's little shutters, but inside it looked like a classroom. And almost all of my students were older than me. I think all of my students were older than me. So back then I used to always wear suits and professional stuff and wear glasses to look older. So yeah, on the research side I continued to work with some of my PhD student colleagues to get, because, you know, you have to get enough stuff out the door to get tenure. So, so I did that. The great secret of my life was that I came here at the time ABD ("All But Dissertation"). So I was, I wasn't done with my dissertation, which in retrospect was insane. Coming into a brand new job, brand new everything. And I was scared to death. I didn't tell anybody when I got here and then finally one day I just broke down in the dean's office in Bernie's office and said, I just, I wasn't able to finish the year, but I'm almost done. I just have to write this stuff up. And he said, Don't worry about it, you'll finish it. So by March of the spring semester, I was done and I walked. So part of my first semester was, you know, finish up the dissertation, get started on your res- on your teaching. And oh, by the way, you'll be on all these committees. I don't know. I don't know how I did it. So those were the yeah, the early years. And then the yeah, the service stuff was just all, everything you can imagine. So there's a faculty member in computer science at the time, Shell Baning. And he said, Oh, you should be on Academic Senate. I, what, what is that? And so I was, that was one of the first things I did. And I remember then, and it's still true now, how can they spend forty-five minutes talking about one sentence in a document? I don't understand. So that's why when folks, Academic Senate, now when I see things, it's like, I, what, so what's new? I've seen this for years. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Okay. So you started your administrative path relatively early on in your career. Can you tell me what that path looked like for you and the positions that you've held? 00:20:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000 So in 1999 we had a dean search. And for reasons completely unbeknownst to me 'cause I was an associate professor at the time, the then-vice president for Academic Affairs, he was not pro--the title didn't include Provost yet. That's a not recent anymore, but in '99 it was just the VPAA (Vice President for Academic Affairs). He asked me to serve as the Dean Search Committee Chair. And so, Alright, sure. And unfortunately the search was not successful. So the VPAA had to pick an interim dean and chose one of my colleagues, Kathleen Watson. And she and I were very close and close friends as well as colleagues. We did consulting together. We were friends outside of work. And so he thought--the VPAA thought I could be her associate dean. And so I was made interim Associate Dean in 1999. And I thought, you know, sure, for a year, I'll try it. I don't have any idea what it entails. Because up until then, the associate deans in the colleges had been these older full professors at the time. I thought they were old. I now look back and think they were like way younger than I am now. I am sure. And so I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I said, yes, I would be associate dean 'cause I figured I'm working with Kathleen, it'll be okay. And then there was another dean search and that one also failed, and the VPAA--no wait, no, that dean search was successful, sorry. And he, the dean who came in, came from Cal State Long Beach, Mohammed Mustafa. Called him Mo, rest his soul. He kept me on as associate dean, and he made me permanent. And the first, the first semester was fine ; after that thing started going sideways because his management style and what the faculty wanted at the time were completely different. And the faculty--he began to get really suspicious of them. They began to really hate him. And I was stuck right in the middle. And so that was, I'm sure one of the questions is gonna' be, what's the most chal-- what are the most challenging times that you faced here? That was really one of them, if not the most, because I basically lost all my friends because Kathleen and the other senior faculty thought that I had betrayed them because I stayed on as Associate Dean. They thought I should have resigned. But, you know, at the time, I liked the job and I didn't want to, I didn't wanna' quit. And they never got over the fact that I stayed on as Mo's Associate Dean. And so lost my friends. They wouldn't talk to me. People would yell at me in meetings 'cause they couldn't yell at him. So it was really unpleasant. And so after eighteen months, Mo resigned and that was the only time that I started looking for jobs elsewhere. And I actually got an interview as--for a dean of faculty position in, outside of Boston, Massachusetts at a Catholic school called Easton. And it was when Vince was three, and I remember that because he couldn't pronounce Massachusetts. And so I had to, when I left, Angel would tell him that I was going on an airplane to Massachusetts and he would say, Mama, go airpane Ma-chusetts. (laughter). So that was a great experience because I thought, Okay, I'm a relatively new associate dean. It was only a couple years out, and they still wanted to interview me. And the people were really nice, and I didn't get the job, but at least I felt validated, like, Okay, I could do this. And then thankfully there was a dean search, and the dean who came in was Dennis Guzman. And he was--he ended up being the stability that COBA needed. So prior to that, I said Mo stayed for eighteen months. The permanent dean before Mo stayed eighteen months. There had been a bunch of interims. So the, there was a revolving door in the dean's office basically every eighteen months for the first about ten years of Cal State San Marcos's existence. But when Dennis came in, he was a great people person. He really got to know the faculty. They began to trust him. He ended up serving as dean for ten years. He made it his mission the first couple of years to get folks to respect me again and to treat me well. And it worked. I never got my friends back, like Kathleen and I never fully recovered our friendship. We got to at least talk 'cause she wouldn't even talk to me. We got to at least be on speaking terms and be civil and thanks to Dennis. And he also was great because he--Vince was young. And he let me do all of the things that moms can do. I never had to miss any of his things. I could go on field trips, if I needed any time, Dennis would give it to me. And so he let me be a mom to a young child, which was the most important thing to me. So when I first became Associate Dean, Vince was three. And I figured, I'm gonna be--and I was really young at the time--so I was gonna be the youngest everything. I was gonna' be the youngest provost. I was gonna' be the youngest president. I was going all the way before I was forty. And then Vince started kindergarten, and I realized, holy moly, he needs me. And this time is not gonna' come back. And if I miss it, I am gonna' regret it. And we only have the one kid we couldn't have anymore. So like, this is my one shot. And so thankfully Dennis let me do that. And so that's why I stayed on as Associate Dean for thirteen years. And then he decided--so provost came, new provost came in. She was quite something, and they didn't get along. And so he decided to step down. And I thought, Oh God. Because I used to tell him, Dennis, don't leave 'cause I don't want your job. But by the time he stepped down, I had been Associate Dean for like eleven years. So they asked me to be the interim dean. And I thought, all right, I'll give it a shot. And so I was, and found that, you know, I'm a chameleon. I can adapt pretty darn well. 'Cause It's a completely different skillset, associate dean to dean, as you well know. Being the the associate dean, you're the support, you're the details, you're the sounding board, you're all the things. As the dean, you are it. If you don't think of it, it doesn't get done. You need to--and then in COBA, you had to fundraise. There was an advisory board, all of the things. So business, community stuff. So all kinds of stuff I was learning. But I loved, I liked it. I liked it a lot. And so when the fall semester went well, when the spring semester rolled around and the dean search started, I put my hat in the ring. I thought, You know, why the heck not? And the Provost at the time, she said that, you know, I was doing a great job. She loved working with me, I liked working with her. Everything was going great. Dean search happened. And I didn't get the job. And I still remember to this day, it was April 1st, 2012. She called me and told me I didn't get the job. And I cried harder than I had ever cried. 'Cause I gave my heart and soul to this, to the job. And I thought I should have gotten it. People were telling me I should have gotten it. The advisory board was. Everybody was thankfully rallying around me, but, you know, to no avail. 'Cause the person that they picked at the time, and I'm not, I'm not saying anything that anybody doesn't know, she left after two years and gave the provost at the time--so the provost shift, Graham came in, Graham Oberem--gave him two weeks notice. So, she basically came here to get her retirement. But the provost who hired her saw dollar signs because she had come from San Diego State and raised, supposedly raised, thirteen million dollars. And so they thought, oh, she'd come here and do the same. So that didn't work out. And she, you know, I did my best. I swear it wasn't sour grapes or anything like that. I did my best to transition her in and to work with her. But her work style and mine were very different. Like, I'd come in and before 7:00 a.m. there were sixteen emails for me to do stuff. She was having me do spreadsheets left, right, and sideways for absolutely no reason. And so after a year, I thought I can't do this anymore. So I was gonna' go back to faculty, and Graham called me 'cause David Barsky was stepping down as the--it was AVP (Associate Vice President) of faculty--of Academic Programs at the time. And Graham asked me, do you want to do it? And I said, no, I don't, because let's see, David works until midnight, and I don't know what the job entails and, you know, but let me sleep on it. So I did. And Angel and I talked and he said, You know, what have you got to lose? Do it for a year. I said, okay. Twelve--it would've been twelve years today that I stayed in this job. And, you know, turns out that Patricia Prado-Olmos told me this, and it's true. That the COBA dean thing was, you know, the best thing that never happened to me because this gig was really, you know, very well suited to what I like to do, what I like to think I'm good at, and allowed me to work with faculty across the University, which I didn't get to do in COBA. Gave me a really a bigger picture view. Had I decided to go on to be a provost someplace else, it really would've positioned me well for that. And so, you know, looking back, there really has--well, I haven't had a plan for my career. There has been a plan by someone, you know. So I'm a person of faith, so I believe God took care of me somehow. Put me where I was supposed to be when I was supposed to be at each stage of my career. 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:59.000 So tell me what an AVP of Academic Programs does. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:34:55.000 So the evolution of--so started off with basically the catalog maintenance. And back then it was a paper catalog and then shifted to PDF. So the catalog and then the curriculum. So curriculum goes through a bazillion approval steps--new courses, new programs, all the way up to the Chancellor's Office. And so all of those steps really shepherding, shepherding faculty along in their creativity around new courses and new programs to get them through all of the myriad of steps. So the position originally was an AVP and it didn't do--David didn't do accreditation and what else didn't he do? And he did first year programs. So when I took it over, first year programs really wasn't in Academic Programs anymore. Neither was scheduling, which he had for a while. And then after about a year, we had--we were ramping up for our WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) reaffirmation in 2014 at the time. And Sharon Hamill was our campus Accreditation Liaison Officer. And she was a faculty member. We had our visit from the Vice President from WASC, and he recommended that it be an administrator. And so Sharon and I talked, I had, you know, gotten to know the VP from WASC. I was really impressed. And I said, you know, sure, I'll do it. And so that's how the WASC piece came over. Then Academic Affairs reorganized, and we brought in a Vice Provost for the first time. And when that happened, that's when the AVP position became a dean position because they wanted all of the senior leaders in academic affairs to be at the dean level. And so I became Dean of Academic Programs and still doing the accreditation, assessment, curriculum, catalog. So those basic things. Then in 2018, President Haynes called me into our office, and there had been a task force put together to look at advising and infrastructure and organization around academic advising on the campus. And they said that it should be consolidated in one division 'cause It was bifurcated in Student Affairs and Academic Affairs at the time. And they wanted all in Academic Affairs. And Karen--President Haynes--asked me if I would do it. And I said, why me? Academic programs, advising, why? She said, you know, we really think that you can make it work. And so that's how advising, that's how it became Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2019, I think we launched. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Yeah, it's been a long road. 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.000 Yeah, it has been. 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:12.000 Okay. So you've been a faculty member and administrator on campus for 34 years. What has been the evolution at CSUSM? How has it changed? 00:35:12.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Well buildings are nice. (laughter) It still boggles my mind to this day. I will just like stand in Palm Court and look up the stairs 'cause for the longest time, those stairs were there and there was no building. And they were the stairs to nowhere. That's what we would call them 'cause Markstein Hall didn't open, hadn't opened yet. So every single building on campus, I have seen open. I've been in many of them before they were even built, like this building, I got to--I have a rivet from this building. So just basically growing up with the campus was just insane. And it's not, you know, it really exceeded expectations 'cause I certainly hoped that once we decided to stay here 'cause I mentioned we were gonna' be here for two years. After two years and, you know, this weather, we called home and we said, Yeah, we're not going back. And so my parents packed up and moved, and eventually, Angel's family packed up and moved. So once we decided to stay, and I got to, you know, we were at 400 students when I started. We're at what, close to 17,000 now. So just seeing that, and all of the talk in the early years was always about the City of San Marcos, the region needs us 'cause there's gonna be this explosion in the college age population. North County's population is exploding. We need to be here. And they, the City, you know, put its money where its mouth was. The Twin Oaks (Valley Road) has been as it is today, since before there was a campus. So they really were thinking ahead. And so, all of those promises and dreams so many of them came true. And I got to see that. I got to--(weeps) I knew this would happen. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000 It's okay. We very much want you to be as vulnerable as you can. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:38:13.000 And anybody who knows me knows that I cry. So it's okay. But I got to be a part of that. I got to, to build, build this place. And I think, wow, you know, I built it, and then my son came here. So I built it for him, for all of the other students that have graduated. And for all the faculty who have come here. So, you know, if you look for God, did you, did you go someplace where they let you make an impact? Yeah, I did. I did. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that Shoeshine got that letter that day and that I gave it a chance. 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:24.000 Did you always know that you wanted to be an academic or this was something that Shoeshine, like, helped to develop? 00:38:24.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Yeah I, when I was little, I used to play school, and I'd line up my stuffed animals, and I had blue books, and I thought they were the coolest thing in the world, and I would give them little tests. So I guess leaning towards teaching was always a thing for me. But being a professor, no. And in fact, Angel can tell you this, when we, since I met him the day after I started the PhD program, I hated my classes. 'Cause they were very quantitative. I was a psych major. This was not my wheelhouse. And it was a lot more difficult. Like, I had been a really good student my whole life. Even in my undergrad, I got two B's. So school came easy to me. That all ended in grad school. It was not easy anymore. And so I would cry on the phone with him every night that we were talking, Oh, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this program. And so after the first year, I got an internship in HR for a bank. It was called Sun Bank at the time, in Florida, in Miami. And it was on Brickell Avenue, which is a beautiful big office right on the bay. And so I just had an intern job. But I got offered, at the end of the summer, I got offered a permanent job for ten dollars an hour. And I thought, Wow, that's lot of money. This was in 1988. That's a lot of money. Maybe I should drop out of the PhD program since I hate it so much. And I almost did. Oh my God, thank you. I went to my first academic conference at around the same time. And at the conference when I met other PhD students, when I saw faculty presenting on their research, I said, oh, okay. This is what faculty do. It's not these quantitative classes that I hate. So I was able to see the bigger picture. And so at that point, I, and then I started teaching in the PhD program, too. And I thought, okay. I like this. I like this part. Now, being an administrator, never crossed my mind. But being faculty-- 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:37.000 Until you started to be an administrator and then you were going all the way to the top. 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Yep. Then I was gonna' be president. Yep. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:49.000 Okay, I get it. Okay. So can you speak to your highs and lows at CSUSM? You talked about one of the lows. 00:40:49.000 --> 00:43:48.000 Yeah. So highs. This building, Markstein Hall. I was involved from the very, very early stages. I saw, I think I was on the first building committee, the first building design--people might not know this--was a circular building, but then in the CSU that can't work because it's too much wasted space. And then on the inside, so the scrap that, came up with the design, so work from the--work with the architect from the very beginning, as I said, was in this building multiple times as it was going up. And so when it finally opened, this was like my child. So it's funny now that I'm back in here, it's like, oh, I'm, I'm home. I feel completely comfortable. I was like, I picked out this furniture. Fourth floor, all of it, you know, we, the I--the fourth floor, I picked. Dennis, let me pick it. Dennis, let me pick this chair. It is a Coach leather chair in green. It's mine. This, I tell Angel, this is going home with me when I retire. And he says, University property. No, it's my chair. So opening this building was just awesome. The, in this job, well, accreditation, you know. Getting ten years when I didn't know anything about was going into this and was able to put a great team together, work with great people. God bless Melissa Simnett, you know, we were able to pull off a ten-year reaffirmation, which was awesome. Just seeing the growth, that's just been so exciting. My son graduating from here, that was, you know, best day of my life, no doubt. I was able to--I used to, before we got the, it's not an AI reader, it's a--how would you call our, how we do names at graduation now? So it's the computer reads them basically, but it's a human voice. Anyway, before that, it used to be faculty, and I used to coordinate the reading of the names and I would read names. So I got to read his name, and I got to say "my son Vincent Lorente," and my voice cracked just like that. So that was like one of the best days ever. Actually, every graduation is just amazing. And so those are all high points. The last thing I'll say is, you know, working with Academic Advising and getting to know those folks. This team of in Academic Programs that I'm working with now, like the stuff that's been happening recently, that's, that's all been awesome. I've loved it. Low points. I mentioned the one that was the lowest. What was the other one? Yeah, there really haven't been many. There really haven't been many. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.000 Okay. Do you have work that you've accomplished in your career that you think has been the most impactful? Like if you had to name one or two things? 00:43:59.000 --> 00:45:36.000 Curriculog and Acalog. So our curriculum system--curriculum management and our catalog--that's fully online. 'Cause that's, I mean, that's a piece of infrastructure that's gonna' last us. And we, that was entirely. I don't do "me" very much, but that one was me doing the research. Other CSUs, only three were using it at the time. But we had to do something 'cause we had paper forms that we're chasing all around campus. And we tried working with IT to do something that was an early version of DocuSign, but the technology wasn't there yet. And so these companies just started up then that were saying, Hey, we can do it all for you. And so I started researching them and thankfully we chose these folks. And now most of the CSUs uses 'em. And so that, while I don't fool myself into thinking it's gonna last us forever, I'm sure there's gonna be a better mousetrap someday. It has taken us quite far and took us through the pandemic, which if we had not had that, then there is no way. Everything would've ground to a halt. So I think that's had a big impact. This building, this thing's my legacy right here. So those things, and I guess just all the, I haven't counted, maybe I should, all of the program proposals, new programs, all of the things that have gotten approved in the last twelve years while I've been in this job. Like, at least--not a hundred, but about fifty easy. And so so those things. 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:42.000 Great. Can you tell me about the people who have most influenced you in your career? 00:45:42.000 --> 00:50:24.000 Hmm. So going--I mentioned Dennis Guzman, who had been the dean in COBA. So he was a great mentor and a great friend. And he rebuilt my self-esteem such that I could stay on as an administrator and not think that I was the piece of dirt that all of the faculty thought I was at the time. Beverly Anderson. So she was the first permanent dean hired in 1992. And she was, unfortunately, not what the senior faculty at the time wanted. I don't know if there were gender issues then. I was too young and blind to see any of that at the time. But they did not like her. They wanted to get rid of her and made her life miserable. And in fact, they co-opted us junior faculty. 'Cause I was twenty-six, what did I know from anything at the time? These, you know, senior faculty, who had been around forever, different universities were telling me, oh no, this isn't what we need in a dean. So they co-opted all of us and did a vote of no confidence against her. And so she stepped down after eighteen months. And then as I got a little bit older, I had a little bit more experience. After about three years, I realized, Man, that was a mistake. Beverly was good people and she was a good dean. And so I went to her and I said, Beverly, I am so sorry if you could ever forgive me. And so she became a mentor to me. She became a very close friend, and we stay in touch to this day. And she is like the exemplar of what a woman in the academy should be like. She came up in a time when women weren't respected, but yet she kept her head high. And I still remember the things that she told me. Like she said, nobody insults you without your permission. She taught me that careers are cyclical and that they go up, they go down, they go up, they go down. So never when they're down, when you're down, never worry about it 'cause it's gonna' go back up. So she had a huge impact on me. I'd say Karen Haynes, so she was a great mentor to me. She and Pat Worden, who was a VP of Student Affairs for a while, had been all of the things, like she had been Associate Dean in, it wasn't CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences) then, it was COAS, College of Arts and Sciences. Lots of positions on campus. And so she was a mentor to me and she, Karen and wait, yeah, she, Karen and I taught a class on women in leadership. And so that was super exciting. And that's how I got to know President Haynes as a person. And she wasn't just like in name only, she, we team taught that class and she was there. Like, she would come, she would lecture, she would discussion, all of the things. So she was a great influence on me. Kamel Haddad. He was just amazing. He made me better, you know, he just had a way of, you know, he was tough. He was hard to understand sometimes, not verbally, but just, What is it that you want from me? and I can't do it! And he yes, you can. And he taught me. And he was so patient. And so he made me better. Graham. Graham, he came in from the the provost who didn't give me the job. And he treated me fairly. He respected me. He--I guess that was a low time when I didn't get the job, the dean job. But Graham came in and saved the day for me. And so he was, he was definitely a mentor. My super close friend here, Dawn Formo. She and I have been together now for what, thirty years we've been friends. And so I always looked to her for like, what would Dawn do if? 'Cause she always does the right thing. Yeah, I'd say those, those folks. I'm sure there's more. I'm leaving out. Oh, David Barsky, who held the position before me. So he taught me. He spent a whole year training me, and I was thinking, I can't do this, David. I can't do it your way. But he still taught me and he taught me well, and he was always there to answer questions. 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:32.000 So what do you plan to do during retirement? Personally and professionally. Today is your first day of retirement, I will say-- 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000 It is. 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:34.000 --and you're in your office-- 00:50:34.000 --> 00:52:27.000 --and here I am. (laughter) Aye-yai-yai. So I am going to FERP, faculty early retirement. And so as part of that, I need to continue my--funny how I phrase that--I need to continue my work on WASC because the retirement was unexpected. My plan had been 2026 after my sixtieth birthday in September, after we had done our WASC reaffirmation visit, which is in March of 2026. But this VSIP (Voluntary Separation Incentive Program) thing came up, and it was too good to turn down. So I retired now. But leaving this place in a lurch with accreditation wasn't an option for me. And thankfully, the Provost and Vice Provost agreed. And so that's my fac--my FERP assignment is instead of going back to the classroom, I'm going to continue on as the, the WASC ALO and lead us through the accreditation visit. Also, since I'm not being replaced yet, the whole what happens to academic programs and academic advising question is still a very real one. And so I will be a faculty fellow for accreditation and curriculum, which means, kind of have to figure out how much I can do within the constraints of my FERP assignment to kind of keep the boat afloat for a year. So in a lot of ways, nothing has changed but then everything has changed. So I'm just, I'm still trying to figure out in my head what that means. I think at minimum it means that I set my schedule. And that I am the boss of no one for the first time since 1999. And that technically no one is the boss of me, other than my dogs. (Laughter) 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Will you still continue to do professional work with WASC? 00:52:31.000 --> 00:53:56.000 Yes. So I will still serve on teams. So I've been doing that for about ten years now. I got involved with WASC after our visit because I was very impressed with them as an organization, because you think accreditation and it, you think it's about checking a bunch of boxes and oh, you don't do this right. WASC is not that. WASC is all about, you know, maybe it's the California philosophy, I don't know, but it's all about let's try to make you better. Let's get to know you, let's help you be a better version of you. And so that felt really good. And it also felt good to learn about other institutions because since this is the only place I've ever worked in higher ed, you know, that's my, that's a strength and it's a weakness because it's all I knew. And so getting involved in WASC exposed me to all types of institutions, you know, private, not-for-profit, for-profit, all of the things. Big schools, little schools, international schools. They sent me to the Emirates to review a school, I'm going to Ecuador next year. So really, WASC like swung open the door on professional development for me as someone in higher ed. And so I will absolutely love to keep doing that. And in fact, I just did a sub-change review yesterday for a school in Africa, of all places. Didn't go there, obviously. It was Zoom. But yeah, Ecuador in April. 00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:10.000 Very cool. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? Anything that we missed? 00:54:10.000 --> 00:55:17.000 So in my retirement speech, I made a reference to Hamilton," and I read part of George Washington's farewell speech. I won't do that again. But the one thing I didn't say was another quote from Hamilton and it says "legacy is planting seeds in a garden you never get to see." I got to see the garden. So that's pretty cool. And as I said earlier, I'm really grateful for that. Hopefully there's still some flowers that will bloom once I'm gone. But that won't be for another, well, I can FERP for five years. And that's my plan, you know, I think, God, old people retire and I'm not old, you know, fifty-eight, I'll be fifty-nine, but I've got five years now, and so I can see going all the way through five years for sure. Unless and until Vince has a baby. If that happens, then we are Napa bound and I will be raising grandchildren. (laughter) 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:43.000 Very good. Okay. Well thank you. I will say the theme that came across to me the most in this interview is your like, can do, I can do it for a year, I can do it for two years. I could, I can do it for six months. And you've obviously been open to these possibilities, and that is really what has made your career and CSUSM so much better. So thank you so much for interviewing today. Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) 00:55:43.000 --> 01:55:49.000 Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-085 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Regina Eisenbach Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- History California State University San Marcos -- Administration Education, Higher Women in leadership Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Juan (P.R.) Miami (Fla.) San Marcos (Calif.) CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey Gilmore OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Black Student Center OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. SC027-04 01:12:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; csusm Black Student Center student success California State University San Marcos Black experience Geoffrey Gilmore Sierra Jenkins moving image GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5092b218abace83b431090029a7e6156.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 36 Childhood Gilmore briefly discusses his childhood growing up in Seattle and his feeling of isolation without close family. Seattle ; Los Angeles ; isolation ; family 0 177 Developing an understanding of Blackness Gilmore speaks about how his understanding of blackness came mostly from books, documentaries, lectures, and his family and peers. self-education ; informal education 0 300 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Gilmore talks about her exposure to Black history in school, which was largely misinformation and seen through a lens of whiteness. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; Civil Rights Movement ; Black Panthers ; power ; teacher 0 680 College experience Gilmore reflects on his time in college at Washington State University. In contrast to his earlier education experience, he was able to take Black studies courses and interact with a diversity of Black people. He talks in length about a television series titled “Them” and how its premise and conclusion has impacted him. Black history ; Black studies ; Black and white relations ; Them television series ; racism ; power dynamic 0 1703 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Gilmore reflects on his main philosophy that is Black empowerment through education. He has spent his career helping students to realize how they can succeed in education and in their careers. educational philosophy ; student success ; empowerment through education ; student struggle ; student learning ; remedial education 0 2624 Early focus of the Black Student Center's initiatives, programming, events Gilmore speaks about many events sponsored by the Black Student Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; education ; learning ; events ; Kwanzaa ; Black Panters ; Tulsa Massacre ; Black health 0 2992 Gilmore's role in establishing the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about his role in establishing the Center, including his initial oversight of the Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; student success ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; Jake Northington ; organizational structure 0 3147 The process of creating the Black Student Center Gilmore discusses the initial push by students for a Black Student Center. Black Student Center ; meeting ; President Karen Haynes ; formal request 0 3295 Leaders of the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Gilmore mentions how to find a list of people who were involved in establishing the Black Student Center. He also talks about the faculty and staff working behind the scenes on this student-driven initiative Black Student Center website ; CSUSM faculty ; CSUSM staff ; student-driven 0 3441 University Administration’s vision for the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about the priorities for the Black Student Center being student success, engagement, and involvement. The Black Student Center was moved from Student Academic Support Services to Student Life. Black Student Center ; student success ; student engagement ; Student Academic Support Services ; Student Life 0 3607 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Gilmore briefly speaks to campus worries about the establishment of a Black Student Center on campus. Black Student Center ; white student center ; pushback 0 3732 Experiencing the Grand Opening of the Black Student Center/BSC's impact on the campus communitiy Gilmore reflects on the grand opening of the Center, especially the emphasis on creating relationships with the local Black community. grand opening ; relationships ; local service area ; Black Student Unions ; pipeline ; community members ; careers ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Jack and Jill organization ; conference 0 4118 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Gilmore Gilmore reflects on how the educational events and connection with students in the Black Student Center impacted him. educational events ; student connection 0 4273 Future expectations of the Black Student Center Future expectations of the Black Student Center. Gilmore shares his expectation for taking the Black Student Center to the next level. Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; student success ; graduation 0 oral history Dr. Geoffry Gilmore specifically touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at two zero eight p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore for the Black Student Center oral history project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Canter and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Dr. Gilmore, thank you for being here with me today. How are you doing? Geoffrey Gilmore: I'm doing well. Thank you. Jenkins: Glad to hear it. So I'm just gonna' jump right in. So our first question for today is where were you born and where did you grow up? Gilmore: I was born in, I was born in, in Los Angeles, California, and I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Jenkins: How was it growing up in Seattle as compared to Los Angeles? Gilmore: It was different, you know, it was, you know, it was a lot, it was a lot different. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 It was isolating in the sense that, in the sense that, that the family that we had here in California was very expansive. We have a lot of family who had migrated and settled and stayed in the Los Angeles area for a long time. And so I've got a lot of family in the Los Angeles area and particularly in Pasadena, California, and you know, in Washington, when we moved up there, that wasn't the case. I think, a little later on, we had a couple of cousins 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 who were up there, but, who had moved up there, but other than that there wasn't, there were not, there were not that many. So yeah, it was different. Jenkins: How old were you when you moved to Seattle? Gilmore: I was, I was very young. I was four years old. Jenkins: Okay. And how old were you when you moved back out to California? Gilmore: When I moved back to California, I was, I was 30. Jenkins: Oh, wow. So you definitely grew up in Seattle completely. Gilmore: Right. Jenkins: How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Gilmore: A lot of it, I would say a lot of it came from 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 experience and then there was, family as well. And then on top of that, there was the education I received. And I will emphasize that when I say education, I'm not talking about education in the formal sense of school, although school did attempt to educate me to accept what the role that society had actually established for Black people in this country. But, you know, it was more so self-education, as well as informal 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 experiences, where maybe peers or other members within the Black community had actually referred me to information from different books, documentaries, and, having attended different lectures, all that kind of stuff. So educationally, it was largely informal but then, of course, like I said, there's the life experience as well as, the education that came from family. Jenkins: Thank you for that. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? Gilmore: It's 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 interesting that you asked that question. Really when it came down to Black experience, what I was educated is that in school in particular, is that Black people are in a lower social class than white people. And really than anybody else in the world that we are at the bottom when it comes to when it comes to social class, based on race and was also educated--actually, I'll tell you what--I'll tell you a story that sort of underscores what that was. I can remember, I believe it may have been 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 in the fourth grade that this really occurred. We were learning about, I guess, quote, Black history in the classroom, and it was all about slavery and the struggle of the Black people in the Civil Rights Movement, and how Martin Luther King was this great person because he encouraged the struggle to be non-violent, whereas Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were violent, racist, haters of white people and wanted to kill white people and 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 all this kind of stuff. And as she went into that part of our education, I can remember that one of the white students in the class had raised his hand and asked the teacher a question, and the question that he asked was if we were to ever let Black people have power then would they put us in slavery and do the same things to us that we've done to them. And the teacher thought about the question for a moment and really her answer to that question reinforced what the intention 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 of that lesson was, right? And really, reinforced what the whole message about power in this country is all, as it pertains to race, is all about. And her answer to the question was you know that's a really good question. I don't know. And so the thing is, just in looking at, in really unpacking that question and what the student was asking, first of all just in asking, if we ever let Black people have power, first of all, that means that the white people have the 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 power, and the only way that Black people can ever have power is if the white people let Black people have power. Right? And so that's the first thing. And then, the second thing was this fear that what they have imposed on Black people would be reciprocated back to them and all of that. Right? And just in what the teacher was saying all of that message was the message that she clearly intended to get across given the answer to that question. And that answer basically confirmed that, yes, her intent was to--what's to say that white people have all the power 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 and the only way Black people can ever have power is if white people let them have power? And that it is a real fear of white people that Black people with power would return the evil that has been imposed on our people. So that was the gist of the formal education that I was given about Black people in school. And I can tell you that really from year to year moving on from there, and even before that, that was the message that was being delivered. That was the, that was what we were being educated to 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 believe. Jenkins: That's horrible. That's such an interesting story to have experienced in fourth grade. What did you learn after adolescence prior to coming to CSUSM? Gilmore: Well, there's a whole lot of time in between adolescence and CSUSM. So, I would say--I guess you're talking about, after I left high school, correct? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: Okay. So when I left high school and went to college, it was different. And it was different in the sense that while 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 attending a predominantly white college, or university, I also, the company I kept was largely Black. We had a sizable enough Black community at Washington State that really was who I was with the majority of the time I was there, you know? And so educationally speaking, it was different in the sense that, at this point I'm actually--I could actually take Black studies courses 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 and actually learn more in a formal educational setting about Black people in this country and around the world. On top of that, there was the informal education, that was in the same vein, along the same vein of what I had mentioned before with peers and with other people in the community and what--really just being referred to different books, different documentaries, all that kind of stuff. And even in special lectures and all that kind of stuff. And even that, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 looking at a lot of these things on my own, that was a big part, but also, I would say that interacting with people who had come to Washington State from a continent, that was a huge educational experience in itself as well. And to be able to learn more about the continent and about what had, what had actually gone on the continent beyond slavery, beyond the slave trade, was a very illuminating experience. And so that kind of gets back to your previous 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 question about what I learned about Black people growing up. And one thing that I would say that I walked away from my K-12 experience with was the warped understanding that Africa was all about National Geographic or apartheid, one of the two. And so therefore, my perspective was that anybody from, anybody who I met from Africa, either lived in apartheid under the apartheid system, being oppressed by white people, or they live like National Geographic in the bush. And that was my understanding 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 coming out of high school and it was very illuminating to be able to go to college and actually get to know and interact with people who had come over to the United States from the continent and get their college education at Washington State like I did. And in doing that, that understanding or that misunderstanding, and that miseducation as to what Africa was all about was dispelled definitively in the--through those interactions. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And I would have to say that what, in learning about what had actually occurred in various places around the continent over, around the continent that I came to realize that I'd been lied to, and it's that sort of thing to where when you have a--let's say if you're talking to your parents growing up and they asked you a question about what happened and you give them a part of the story but not the whole story as to what happened and what are they going to say? They're going to say that you lied. Right? And essentially 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 that's what happened in my educational experience, that a part of the story that really made them look good or powerful maybe--I wouldn't even say look good because much of our story in this country as it pertains to Black and white race relations much of that is rooted in pure evil, you know? And I don't know if you've seen that, the Lovecraft Country show, or if you've seen Them, which just came out on Amazon Prime. Jenkins: I've heard a lot about it, and I haven't heard the best of things. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 And that's what kind of pushed me away from it. 'Cause it has a lot of our trauma on screen and some of that can be triggering. So I kind of stayed away from it. I've planned to watch Lovecraft, 'cause I know that that one has more of a better ending, but I've heard that Them doesn't really come to a conclusion--that it, it's kind of just like our trauma for entertainment. Gilmore: Them had a conclusion. Jenkins: Oh, it did? Gilmore: Yes, it did. And it had a very powerful conclusion at that. And I would say that as far as that show is concerned, that it is important for us to watch that, the creator's expression of 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 the Black experience, is through that, through that program because the creator really nailed the trauma as you put it of the Black experience in this country 100%, and the way in which he did it, in my opinion, was pure genius, you know? So, I would highly, highly, highly recommend it, very highly recommend it. It was difficult to watch, and it was painful in much--I would say the majority of it was painful, but the way in which it ended, it ended 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 with power, and again, I most definitely wholeheartedly recommend that show. There's a lot to unpack in that show. And one of the things about it is that we recognize our experience and the experience of those who came before us because I'll tell you one of the things about watching something like that, right? Is where we can hear about the experiences that the people who came before us went through, right? But to really see it and to really understand it is a whole 'nother thing. And to really get down to the 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 evil of racism that has existed in our country and still exists in our country is critical for us to really wake up and determine our place in the society. Really the way in which the system has been set up and continues to be set up is that we're supposed to know our place in a society. We're supposed to know our role and stay in it, you know? And that's the way that it's designed. But if we're all to also understand that the, 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 really the power to determine what our role is going to be in society and take that role on, the power to do that actually lies within ourselves to make that determination and to and stand by it, you know? And so that's where I think that this program really hit the nail on the head and really delivered that message. And the other thing, too, is that it's one of those things where I was watching--in watching the show, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 it made me think about my grandfather, right? And I had to go back and really think about what the kinds of things that my grandparents would say about their experiences and what their attitudes were. You know, what about this society and about what was and was not possible, all kinds of stuff, right? And in doing that, I actually just on a whim typed my grandfather's name into Google and looked up 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 --and was trying to look up and see if there was any information there about him and about that time, and in doing so, I came across an article that was about my great-grandmother in the LA (Los Angeles) Times. And the article was really just a human interest piece that was talking about her because she had turned a hundred and really, in coming to California, that's where a lot of family just actually just came from her and is in the Los Angeles area as a result. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 And there was one part in there where they were talking to her, and she was talking about coming to California and how--from the deep South--and how that, and how, in some ways what she experienced in California was worse than what she experienced in the deep South. And that's where it--that show really resonated because that's what the show is centered on. Centered on Black people coming to California from the South. And moving into neighborhoods that are 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 predominantly, if not all white. And how they were and how they were received. And so I can--it gave a picture as to what may have been behind that statement, you know? Yeah. So-- Jenkins: I’ll try it. I will, but 'cause my grandma, she also had a similar experience. She came from Seattle to California around the fifties. And so, but she lived in like a Black area. She, yeah. Gilmore: Okay. Jenkins: How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 Hmm. How has it affected me? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: You know, I'll tell you what, when I was in school, I was very much involved in social justice and activism on our campus at Washington State. I would also say that when it comes to 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 my life beyond college, it has taken on a different form than the activism that I was involved in when I was a student in school. And the form that it is taken on has been more so in my work, right? And so we can look at that basically, given that I've been in education, it's been more about empowerment through education, and that has actually been a philosophy that I have, 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 that has, that has grounded in my work. That philosophy of empowerment through education has grounded my work. And that would be through math, through writing, through--and really through looking at ourselves and looking at our history and where we come from and also looking at the possibilities of where we can go and--if we so desire and how to get there. And that's where I would say that connecting the students to resources, helping students to see that 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 what they may have thought was out of reach when it comes to their education is actually actually tangible. It's possible to learn this stuff. And one of the things--we talk a lot about impostor syndrome. That's something, that's a term that I've heard used quite a bit when it comes to people not realizing or understanding that they can actually learn what's there and that it's not a reflection of their intelligence or ability that they struggle with certain 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 material because the thing is that when it comes down to it, say for instance, we struggling with math, right? And I've heard so many students saying that I'm just not good at math. Right? And the thing to understand there is that there's no such thing as not being good at math. The thing to understand is that you are in school and in being in school, you're here to learn. And the fact that you don't know the information that is being presented to you in the classroom--is not--that's the way it's supposed to be, right? Because you're here to learn it, you know? And so you're not going into the classroom already knowing how to do what they're presenting to you. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 Otherwise you're wasting your time. If you're just sitting there to showcase that you know how to do stuff that--and and basically pay him money to take a class, to show you how to do stuff that you already know how to do, you know? And so that is--that has been what a large part of what I've done after college. One thing, for instance, was at Washington State, I was Director of the Freshman Seminar Program at Washington State for a while. And while I was doing that I was called by the athletics department. Right? And they had all these football players 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during the summertime who were taking a math course that they were failing. And in order to be eligible to play in the fall, they absolutely had to pass this class. And so they called me in to help them pass the--help them with the math and to help them pass the class. And so I did that and what we ended up doing was we ended up addressing the concepts that they were being presented in that class. And as they address those concepts, they gained, they started gaining understanding of how these things work, of how the concepts that they were being presented with work and on how to use those--and how and when to use the different concepts that they were being given 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 and what they ended up discovering was that the knowledge that they had previously thought was unreachable and was out of--and unattainable was actually accessible and that all they had to do was the learning, right? And so coming to that understanding that just because I don't know what's--what this is all about going into it, doesn't mean that I can't learn it. Right? And what you ended up seeing was that with this, in this classroom full of football players, who I was working with, who are majority Black, finding out that that knowledge was accessible and actually coming to that understanding of what this 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 education was all about, what you saw them do after that experience was consider the possibilities for their own lives and start to see that, well, Hey, maybe I can be a doctor, or maybe I can be an engineer. And what you saw was you saw these students changing their majors from general studies, or from social sciences, just anything that they had signed up for because they were told that it was going to be easier for them to do while they were playing football and change their majors to physics or to engineering or to pre-med and--or other fields that they thought might be 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 of interest or might--that they might want to go into. And that was that empowerment, right? To where it's like coming to that understanding then they ended up really taking a look at their own lives and their own direction and determining where they were going to go. And for the next few years after that I would see those same students, those same football players, progressing through the different levels of math. They started out at the class that I was helping them with was considered a remedial math course, right? And in taking that class, they then 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 advanced to the next level and then to the next level. And were taking calculus two, calculus three, depending on what their major was asking for and approaching it from that standpoint of learning. And to this day, a couple of those students are actually doctors to that--medical doctors. There's, another one that I know of who did and end up becoming an engineer and then there was, I think there were a couple others who went into business and actually started their own businesses and are successful in doing so. So that's what I'm talking about when it comes to empowerment through education. And even when I got here 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 at Cal State San Marcos that was the thing that I was brought into address. I was brought into address math and writing. And in particular, those students who were coming into the university with a knowledge foundation that was below the college level, so it was a matter of helping those students to get up to speed with what they needed to know to do--to be successful in school. Right? And that's what I did. And that was actually one of the things that I had told--that I would tell students as they came into the university. And I would tell these students and you would see it, too, when it came down to actually talking to the students, what, you 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 would see that in orientation, when they dismissed the students who did not need to attend the discussion on what was called remedial math or writing, then the students who were left were largely Black and Latino. And on any given day, that would--orientation day, when I would speak to the students, it would be the case. And that's the thing that I would that I will conclude with when I would talk to them, after telling them about the requirements, after telling them about the classes that they would have to take, and addressing all of those things. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 I would tell them to take a look at the name badges, where their test scores were printed out--the placement scores--and where the classes that they would have to take were listed and the--their requirement for early start was on there as well. And I would tell them that this is the most important thing that I was going to tell them out of that whole presentation. And in looking at that, their name badges with their test scores in those classes, I would tell them those scores and those classes are not a reflection of your intelligence, nor are they a reflection of your ability, but they are a reflection of what you know and what you don't know right now. And all of that that I just presented 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 is, it's about what you are required to learn and to understand that when you are learning new knowledge, that that learning experience is supposed to be a struggle. And so the fact that you may have struggled with math and writing in the past, that does not mean that you are not good at it. It just means that you've come across some knowledge that you don't know right now, but you can learn it and that we're here to support you in learning it. And as a result of that, seeing countless students go through, starting at the, from the lowest levels of math and go on into, going into fields that they thought were not accessible to them just like the, those football players. Same with students who were, who needed 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 a stronger foundation in writing, same kind of thing. And in doing so, helping them to think about what it was that they wanted to do and how it is that they can leverage what they were learning in the classroom to actually do those things that they wanted to do, you know? So that was the, that was what, has been in large part what my experience has been since leaving the state of Washington. There's been more and, as you know, I was a part of actually helping to establish the Black Student Center here at Cal State San Marcos, as well. And so when, that was 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 in large part from the, from an administrative standpoint, but at the same time also setting the tone from an educational standpoint as to what the Center was to, what it was to be about, which was education, right? And learning and advancing yourself to go back into the community and build up the community. And so, when they were, there were quite a few things that we did to actually do that through the Black Student Center. One, I would say, was through 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 a lot of the educational events that we put on. One of those events was that we brought a panel of Black Panthers to the University to speak on their experiences and what that was all about. And we also had a photography display up in the Library, where you had all these pictures of Black Panthers and narratives where they were telling their stories and their experiences in the movement. We also had an event where we, what we brought the founder of Kwanzaa to the University to preside over the Kwanzaa ceremony and to also educate us on where it came from 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 and why it was, why was it established here in this country. We also brought in some people who, from Tulsa, Oklahoma, to talk about the Tulsa Massacre you know where--and I'm sure you've probably heard you, you're probably knowledgeable of that history. And it was those kinds of things that we did to really create a learning environment about the Black experience, as well as establishing a forum 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 within the Black Student Center for students to exchange knowledge and also to learn from each other with what they were learning in the classroom and to help uplift each other in that sense. Another thing that we did was to also address the Black experience, whether that be in general or whether that be on this campus. And to really help students to come to an understanding of what it is that they're going through, and what it is that is happening with them 00:48:00.000 --> 00:49:00.000 when it comes to stress, when it comes to their interactions with others, and to understand that what they may be experiencing is not abnormal, and that there are many of us, have, and do experience the same things. You know, we brought in a psychologist from Student Health and Counseling Services to come in and talk about Black stress and how as Black people, there is so much that we carry around on a daily basis that 00:49:00.000 --> 00:50:00.000 is a huge contributor to the high blood pressure that many of us experience to the hypertension that many of us experience and into our general health. And so those are the kinds of things that we did with the, in establishing the Black Student Center. Jenkins: That definitely goes into my next questions that are all centered on the Black Student Center. So you touched on, kind of what, how, what you guys have done now that it's already created, but what role did you play in the beginning or the creation of the Black Student Center? Gilmore: So the Black Student Center was actually established in my area, 00:50:00.000 --> 00:51:00.000 which is Student Academic Support Services. Right? And so, you know Dr. Cole-Avent, right? Oh, you don't know Dr. Cole-Avent-- Jenkins: --I'm new, I'm like very new. Like I started fall 2020, so we've already, we've been in, quarantine and Zoom school, so I haven't gotten to know anybody in any fundamental way. Gilmore: Sure. Okay. So, but you know, Mr. Rawlins, John Rawlins? Jenkins: Yes. I met him and I also met Jake (Northington). Gilmore Okay. So Dr. Cole-Avent is Mr. Rawlins' direct supervisor. Right? And so I was 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 essentially, when the Black Student Center was established, I was in that role, to where the Black Student Center, the Director of the Black Student Center reported to me. Right? And so in establishing the Black Student Center, the, like I had mentioned, the way in which I wanted to approach it was from more of an educational standpoint, more of a educational success standpoint. And with that, with that success, with the end goal of that success, actually being what I previously mentioned about being employed upon graduation and going out into the community and thriving in the community, and 00:52:00.000 --> 00:53:00.000 being that mover and shaker in this society. So that was the role that I played in the establishment of the Black Student Center. Jenkins: Okay. Had you seen a push for the creation of a center before? Gilmore: Had I done what? Jenkins: Had you seen a push for a center before it was created? Gilmore: Yes, actually. And when I was, I was actually at the forum where the president, our previous president, President Haynes, was speaking about the--she was speaking, I believe she may have been being, giving an update on the campus budget to the campus community. And 00:53:00.000 --> 00:54:00.000 there were some Black students who came to that meeting and essentially expressed the need and the desire for a Black Student Center on this campus. And so the president had informed the students that she was open to it and that and that they needed to submit a formal request. And so in the background, I was helping the students who were working on that formal request with the information that they needed to support that request. And so 00:54:00.000 --> 00:55:00.000 more information about the Black experience on this campus. And how students were performing in their classes on this campus and what a Black Student Center would do to bolster the success of Black students at CSUSM. Jenkins: It definitely sounds like you were one of the leaders in the creation of the Black Student Center. Were there anyone that worked on this project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes we may not know about? Gilmore: There were quite a few, and so 00:55:00.000 --> 00:56:00.000 I would say a lot of the people who were involved in the and actually establishing the Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos are listed on the website under the history of the Black Student Center. So you can find a lot of the names there. As far as unsung heroes are concerned, I would say that there were quite a few faculty and staff who worked 00:56:00.000 --> 00:57:00.000 in the background in supporting the students to help them get the Center established, you know? And so this was in large part, it was a student-driven thing. Establishing a Black Student Center, it was definitely student driven, but at the same time, it was supported and--it was supported by a lot of our Black faculty and staff on this campus. Jenkins: Okay, awesome. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You kind of already touched on this, that it was 00:57:00.000 --> 00:58:00.000 mainly education. And was there anything else that they envisioned? Gilmore: Yes. Let me, I'll tell you what, when it comes to the vision, right? I would say that student success was a large part of that. So students actually being successful in their classes and also going on into careers. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:59:00.000 That was a large part of it being in my area ; whereas, the other piece that they really wanted to be more emphasized was the student engagement piece and the student involvement piece, right? And so that's where you have it moving from Student Academic Support Services over to Student Life. And so now the emphasis, at least in the vision of the institution, 00:59:00.000 --> 01:00:00.000 really wanted to make this more, make the students, the Black Student Center, have more of a student engagement and student life emphasis. I don't--and that's not to say that there's no interest in student success and that that educational aspect is not is no longer a part of that part of that vision. But that's the vision that the institution really wanted to emphasize was the student life and student involvement aspect. Jenkins: Okay. When it came to the creation of the BSC, was there external or institutional pushback, and did you 01:00:00.000 --> 01:01:00.000 experience or witness any pushback on the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? Gilmore: Well, I can answer the social media question right now. And that is that I didn't see anything on social media for the simple fact that I'm not on social media, so I try to keep my digital footprint pretty light. So I can't speak to what may have been going on social media. But one thing that I can say that I heard repeatedly was doesn't establishing a Black Student Center doesn't that, isn't that encourage more division and more in isolation of our Black students instead of folding them into the fabric 01:01:00.000 --> 01:02:00.000 of the entire campus community? And if we're going to have a Black Student Center, then why not a white student center? That was another thing that I heard. And then another thing that I heard was a worry that other groups might want a center as well. So what if the Asian students start asking for a center and all that kind of stuff and that was the, those were the type--kinds of things that I heard when it came to pushback. 01:02:00.000 --> 01:03:00.000 Yeah. I would just leave it at that, that was, those were the kinds of things that I heard. Jenkins: Okay. Were you at the BSC's grand opening? Gilmore: I was. Jenkins: Okay. What was your experience? Gilmore: I thought that it was a great experience. It was very celebratory experience. There were a lot of people who came out from the community and a lot of different constituents from our community in the area. Were very pleased to see this, the Black Student Center opening, and were actually very involved in what was going on in the Center. And it was one of those things where 01:03:00.000 --> 01:04:00.000 it opened the door to connect with a lot of people in our local service area to interact with our students. And, like one of the things, when you were talking about vision, one of the things we really wanted to do was to create relationships with the schools within our local service area, which extends from San Diego up to Riverside and Orange County. So we were in, we were engaging with schools as far out as 01:04:00.000 --> 01:05:00.000 Hemet and connecting with the BSU’s (Black Student Unions) that they had out there and in, Hemet, Murrieta, and Menifee, and going into Poway and right here in San Marcos and Oceanside and all over the local service area. And we were connecting with Black students and with Black community organizations and with the teachers and administrators and counselors who were working with the different student groups to really establish that connection in an attempt to 01:05:00.000 --> 01:06:00.000 create a pipeline into the University from those entities. And so that was a big part of it. Another part of it was in connecting with community members, one of the things that we also wanted to establish was a pipeline out of the University. And so what we wanted to do was to bring in various community members in different--in a wide range of professions--to come in and talk to the students and provide the, provide insight into different careers 01:06:00.000 --> 01:07:00.000 and in different professional fields for the students to be able to see themselves in those areas. And so that was one of the things that that grand opening really did was allow us to make those, allow us to make those connections and really build on those connections. Another thing that we did was we connected with the North County chapter of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). We connected with North County chapters of different NPHC (National Pan-Hellenic Council) organizations. So, and have those organizations different, doing different activities with the students on our campus. And one 01:07:00.000 --> 01:08:00.000 of the things that they were doing was in really promoting voting, so that was one just an example of one of the things that the community brought to the table. Another thing that we did was, it was, we connected with the Jack and Jill organization (a membership organization of mothers with children ages 2-19, dedicated to nurturing future African-American leaders), and they ended up having their national conference at CSUSM. So you had all of these Black students from all over, in fact, I saw people from the state of Washington who came in and people who I knew who came in and were a part of that. And it was a 01:08:00.000 --> 01:09:00.000 huge and very empowering experience to see and be a part of. So yeah, those were the things. Jenkins: The more I'm hearing about the grand opening of the BSC, I wish I was there, you know? Gilmore: Yes. Jenkins: We didn't have anything like that at CSUN (California State University Northridge), so it just sounds really amazing. My next question is what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? Gilmore: The impact of the BSC on me personally. You know, I would say that the impact on me personally 01:09:00.000 --> 01:10:00.000 has been that, I too have been able to receive from the types of educational events that we put on and to learn from those events about things that I didn't know about and so education is, was a big part. Or has been a big part. The other very big part and was being able to connect with the students, you know? And so because I had the Black Student Center in my area then that was one of the places where I would come in and actually spend time with students. 01:10:00.000 --> 01:11:00.000 And I would say that, in my role, student interaction is something that doesn't occur as often as I would like. And so having oversight of the Black Student Center actually gave me the opportunity to interact with our students a whole lot more. And so that would--so those would be those things. And then also, as I mentioned, the connections around the community that were established. Those would be the impacts that the 01:11:00.000 --> 01:12:00.000 Black Center has had on me personally. Jenkins: Amazing. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? Gilmore: Well, I see the Black Student Center really just going to the next level under the direction of Mr. Rawlins and Dr. Cole-Avent. And really seeing the two of them bring to fruition the kinds of things that we've been talking about here, which is really that student success and also engaging students in those very meaningful 01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:56.000 activities and experiences that would contribute to their success as students and also to their success as professionals as they get ready to graduate and leave this University. Jenkins: (Unintelligible) Are there any questions I should have asked that I didn't? Gilmore: I think you have done an excellent job of asking questions in this interview and I can't think of anything. Jenkins: Awesome. Thank you. Let me see what I have here. Well, thank you for very much for your time today. And thanks for being a part of this project. We all really appreciate it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore played a key role in the development of the Black Student Center at CSUSM. In this interview, Gilmore touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-04 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Geoffrey Gilmore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center Student Success, Black Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Seattle (Wash.) San Marcos (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alex White OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chamorro;imperialism;colonization;culture;decolonization;Guam OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 White, Alex. April 18th, 2024 SC027-082 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Chamorro (Micronesian people) Chamorro ; imperialism ; colonization ; culture ; decolonization ; Guam Alex White Robert Sheehan moving image WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a8a1f90cbd2908f9886a3aeb3bbc3e4f.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Oral history interview with Alex White, April 18th, 2024, by Robert Sheehan, Distinct Collections Specialist, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 23 Background and Childhood White discusses his background and childhood growing up in Colorado before moving to California and living on a Miwok reservation. During his time in Colorado, White felt that he was unable to express himself freely due to the homogenous nature of living in a white, Christian, military town. White also talks about how his father was unwilling to speak Chamorro because of his own upbringing where he was beaten in school for speaking his native language. Colorado ; California ; Chamorro ; religion ; military life ; repression ; language 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1137 Returning to Guam Alex talks about his return trip to Guam in 2015 and how that trip sparked his interest in learning more about his Chamorro history and culture. Guam ; Chamorro culture ; heritage ; Pacific island history 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1648 The Impact of Imperialism on Chamorro Culture Alex discusses how the extended periods of colonization and imperialism have affected Chamorro culture. From the Spanish colonization to American imperialism and Japanese occupation, the Chamorro community on Guam has had been forced to demonstrate their cultural resilience for more than 400 years. Colonizing forces have displaced Chamorro communities across the island of Guam and significantly affected everything from their culture, to their language, and how they live their lives. colonization ; imperialism ; Spanish colonialism ; American imperialism ; Japanese occupation ; Spanish American War ; World War Two ; WWII ; forced march 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2537 Differing Views of "Liberation" Alex talks about the cultural shift that is happening within the Chamorro community in regards to how "Liberation Day," the day that Guam was returned to US control from Japanese military occupation, is seen between elders and younger generations. The elders within the Chamorro community widely view Liberation Day in a positive light, but there is a growing feeling among younger generations that "liberation" really just means re-occupation. cultural shift ; imperialism ; opression ; displacement ; Chamorro culture 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2968 How Language can Renew the Path to Cultural Healing Alex demonstrates his views on how language can be a tool to reclaim parts of his heritage that imperialism and colonization have attempted to destroy. This is especially important for the Chamorro community because of how the Spanish words and linguistic nuances, like gendered terms, have infiltrated the Chamorro language. Reclaiming the Chamorro language also creates a connection between Alex and his ancestors and solidifies aspects of his religious beliefs. language ; generational trauma ; decolonization ; Chamorro culture ; cultural healing 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3379 Inafa'maolek Inafa'maolek means in the literal sense to "make good" or "to do well." In the broader sense, Inafa'maolek describes the Chamorro concept of restoring harmony and reciprocity for good deeds and taking care of one another. Alex talks about how this concept is applied by Chamorro people both on Guam and in the Chamorro diaspora. community ; respect ; reciprocity ; harmony 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Oral history Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program histed by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.000 So today is July 18th, 2024. My name is Robert Sheehan and I'm here with Alex White for an oral history interview with, California State University San Marcos. How are you doing today, Alex? 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:16.000 I'm good. Yeah. Grateful to be here. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Good. We're happy to have you. Thanks for being here with me today, it's really special that we get to do this oral history. If it's all right, I'd like to start with your childhood and family. Could you tell me a little bit about how you grew up and where you grew up? 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.000 Yeah. Any of it in Chamorro or, or 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:41.000 Yeah, you can do any of it in Chamorro. We don't necessarily have a Chamorro translator, but if you wouldn't mind translating yourself, that be fine. 00:00:41.000 --> 00:02:07.000 Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, So my name is, Tadon Guita Pago. But my American name is Alex -- Alexander Michael White. I'm currently living in, on the territory of the Pomo and Miwok people in Santa Rosa, California. But I grew up in Carter Springs, Colorado, and I come from the families of Leon Guerrero White, from the Village of Manila and Todesco Cruz from the Village of Santa Rita. So I was just like, my somewhat traditional, like Chamorro greeting is like naming like who I am and the family that I, come from. And yeah, so that's, that's the, you have to gimme like, honestly, like my brain's a little foggy, so, I'll need, I'll need more prompting than usual just given the, given my current, yeah. 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.000 Sure. No worries. 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Cognitive, cognitive sharpness, I suppose. 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 You bet. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.000 So, but yeah, so that's, that's the intro. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.000 How was it growing up in Santa Rosa? 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.000 So I grew up in Carter Springs. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.000 Carter Springs. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:04:28.000 I would say being, mixed race, if you will. So my dad is Chamorro and my mom is, European descent, German and Italian predominantly. And, Carter Springs is known as the Evangelical Vatican, so there's more evangelical Christian churches per capita than anywhere else in the world. And then it's also triangulated by the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson and NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) so it's kind of, a predominantly like white, militant, evangelical community and then growing up with, liberal parents, of, yeah, mixed race. So it was, the landscape was beautiful, but I'd say culturally very isolating. And I didn't, I never met another I Chamorro, my entire time. I had family there, but in saying in school and in the community, aside from Liberation, which is like one of our main, Chamorro holidays, I never, I rarely crossed paths. I never went to school with another Chamorro. so yeah, it was definitely very isolating and I think part of it being so conservative, as well as being such a, like a military town, as well as my dad's experiences after World War II. Growing up, he identified us as like, I'm American first and Guamanian second. So that's, and I didn't actually even know the term Chamorro until I was 10 years old. so I, I identified as Guamanian, but not, not Chamorro until, I was ten. So yeah, so there was, there was beautiful things. My material needs were met. I always had, you know, stable housing, food, had neighbors who were kind to us. But I'd say like there was a lot of, yeah, there was things that were challenging, I would say. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Like socio-culturally outside of, outside of like my like inner circle of like friends and, and neighbors. Yeah. 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:40.000 What sort of challenges did you face other than the isolationism? 00:04:40.000 --> 00:05:53.000 I'd say, the, I think of not being a evangelical Christian was probably like the, the most challenging. you know, it'd be kind of things like, my dad had a, or maybe it was my parents had a sticker on the back of the car that, had like the Darwin fish that said evolve. And so a car got keyed. You know, it was known that I wasn't that, like we weren't evangelical and so, you know, people leave like bibles on our car or like illustrated guys to salvation, like tucked in. It was also, I'd say like homophobic, and very heteronormative and, yeah, I think it was, I very much in order to feel safe, I was perceived as being white cis male and so I never really tried to step outside of that identity just to feel safe. So yeah. 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:55.000 It sounds like a little difficult growing up. 00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:11.000 Yeah, it was. I, you know, I wouldn't, growing up, I wouldn't say this is difficult. It's just upon reflection there's like a lot of, yeah, a lot of, yeah. I can reflect upon it as as as very challenging. Yeah. 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:17.000 Did your father speak any Chamorro in at home or does he speak any Chamorro now? 00:06:17.000 --> 00:08:44.000 No, I, the, the three phrases that I, the only three phases he really taught me were, . So Hafa Adai is hello. And that's kind of like every Chamorro at least knows Hafa Adai. And then Si Yu'os Ma'ase is, thank you. The literal translation is like "the creator is merciful." but Si Yu'os Ma'ase is like, our common for thank you. is the way my dad grew up saying, I love you. and then Hafa Tatatmanu Hao was like, how are you? I thought as a kid it meant I'm hungry. Please feed me. Because that was on the, one of the important phrases my dad taught me before he went back to Guam for the first time. So, but no, it, Chamorro was never spoken in the household. I know there was, Chamorro was a genderless language, and so my dad mixed up, he and she all the time, you know, which my mom found very frustrating and embarrassing. And the, I think my dad was of a generation where, you know, he was, he was beaten for speaking Chamorro, like growing up, like in schools. He was born in (19)41, so for the first 18 years of his life, he only spoke Chamorro at home, but he would go to school where it said English only if he spoke Chamorro, the nuns would beat him. And also his parents saw that in order for, you know, for his, for their children to have the greatest chance of like success and stability, they needed to learn English to get a good job. And to, also just to assimilate into American culture. So he moved to the States when he was 18, so in 1959 actually in Oceanside. And so from the time he left the island, the only time he spoke Chamorro was like with family and friends, but in the community, he really, he found like an immense sense of pride of being American, growing up. And so, very much just wanted to be American speak American act American get an American job. And so, yeah, so speaking the language like was never really a priority. And I only knew those phrases, and it's not like we ever said it really outside of like, when you like traveled to or preparing to travel to Guam for the first time. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.000 When did you travel to Guam for the, the first time? 00:08:47.000 --> 00:09:56.000 First time was for Liberation in 1997, so I was 10 years old and actually was like full credit to my mom. She called the University of Guam, you know, it was like pre-internet, you know, really. So like called the University of Guam, and there's an 18 hour time difference. So I don't know if she like woke up early or stayed up late to call them and ordered a book, to be delivered to our house. And, you know, mail in a check , this is oral histories, I'm just telling, you know, like, you know, that's, it was pre, pre transferring to any funds digitally. And so she had a book delivered and that was, I remember distinctly that my dad was teaching me, like we were learning Chamorro History for the first time, and that's the first time I heard the word Chamorro was when I was 10-year-old, like from that book. But my dad was learning stories about Chamorro history that he had never learned growing up, 'cause he was taught American history, not Chamorro history. so that was very distinct. And yeah, so we went back for Liberation. So it would've been the third week of July, 1997. 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:00.000 Is that the first time that you were kind of in a Chamorro community? 00:10:00.000 --> 00:14:28.000 Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I, we, because there's a large military presence, and I believe, you know, you can like factor, but something like, like four out of every five Chamorro, like are enlisted in the, in the military. It's like a very like high enlistment rate for our veterans. Because of the large military presence, there actually was a Chamorro community that existed, you know on base. And so, you know, once a year there would be a Liberation picnic, at a park in Colorado Springs. And so it was there, but that was really, more of like food, you know, it was like, I experienced culturae through food, but I don't have any recollection of the language or necessarily I couldn't, I wouldn't have been able to articulate that as like Chamorro like values or practices. So yeah, going on island, like for the first time, that was very much like the first time I experienced Chamorro culture and like the thing was though, is that I had a older cousin, tell me that because my mom is haole, which is like somewhat derogatory term for like a white person. not as much as like it is in Hawaii, but nevertheless, it's not like a, you don't want to be a haole , you know, like per se. But, because my last name is White, which has its own very unique story, but because my last name was White and my mom was white, and I'm light skinned, you know, my cousin said like, you're not Chamorro. and so since then, when I was 10 years old and I had a cousin telling me that, you know, who's like slightly older than me, then I, I thought like, well then I'm not allowed to, you know, I have a cousin telling me that, so I'm not allowed to say I'm Chamorro. So I would, I would say I was like Guamanian to non-Chamorros, but I wouldn't necessarily, if I was in a group of Chamorros, like I wouldn't say I was Chamorro too. Just because I thought, you know, yeah. Not that I had this language at the time, but I don't wanna be like appropriating or posing as Chamorro or like claiming an identity that I didn't have any right to. So yeah, it really wasn't until my early thirties that, I identified as Chamorro. Because of, because of that first time, like going back. I think an another experience that stood out was, that was like the first time I had experience with Taotaomo'na. So those are like our ancestors. and I remember going to a home that was next to a graveyard, and my dad asking permission, you know, for us to enter like doing like a kinda like indigenous protocol for entering like that type of space. And I remember going and then like feeling like picked up and like lifted up like as a kid. So that was like, those are like some of the, the things that I remember like standing out, like there was. And then the other was, that we were, my dad was, you know, it had been probably, let's see, he left in (19)59. They came back for their wedding one time. So it probably been about 15 years since he'd been, like, he went in (19)59, came back in the eighties (1980s) from my, my parents' honeymoon. And then it wasn't again until like (19)97. 'cause the thing is, it's, you know, there's like only one airline that goes there, and so they have a monopoly. So like nowadays it's $2,000, but you can kind of like adjust that for inflation. It's not, not like a quick, easy, affordable trip to go back. And so, you know, my parents were, working class and so it's not like we had the funds and there's actually like a story that goes with that, but I was just like, focus on that. But my dad was lost, like looking for directions on Guam. And, I just remember like, when you stop and ask people for directions, you know, they were like, oh, hey, come and eat, come and eat, you know, so, which is just very Inafa'maolek (striving for harmony). It's like our, our, like the Chamorro people are very generous and reciprocal and giving. And so that like stood out to me of like these complete strangers inviting us in to feed us food. So yeah, those are some of the, the memories from our first time. 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Very cool. What caused you to want to kind of reconnect with your culture? And learn Chamorro and become and identify as Chamorro? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:16:51.000 Yeah, I would say, a couple things. First was that my dad had 12 siblings. Two that died during the forced march to concentration camp, on Guam. So they never survived infanthood. And I had two, my auntie Cindy and my uncle Danny passed away while I was in college. But around 2016, between 2016 and 2023, I lost my uncle Jesse, auntie Terry, auntie Annie, aunt Dorothy and uncle Vince. So I lost five of my dad's siblings. And so, especially after my aunt Dorothy, my dad became like the eldest surviving in his family. And the only one who like spoke Chamorro, his younger siblings, Agnes and David, they grew up, kinda like English first rather than like Chamorro first. and then they moved to the states when they were young, still in school. So they went to school, in the US. And so my dad was like the, the last of his, like his family, his lineage to speak Chamorro. And so just like, there's an enormous amount of grief around not learning more of the language. You know, there's, there's that saying that like, every time an elder passes, a library burns down. And so, so many of our families stories, passed with my aunties and uncles who passed in like, such a concentrated point of time, you know, it was just kind of like one after the other. So that was, you know, definitely motivated by that, of like, man, you don't have, like, you know, I felt like, at the time I very much felt like, like sand that was like trying to hold onto sand and it just like falling from my fingers of like not getting that, getting those stories while they were still here with us. 00:16:51.000 --> 00:18:17.000 The other was just going through, you know, kind of feeling spiritually malnourished, like trying to make sense of this world and my place in it. And, unfortunately got involved in some like, new age spiritual communities that didn't have good, spiritual hygiene. Did not necessarily, like appropriated practices without knowing the protocol or, consulting with elders. And just seeing a lot of harm, as a result of that. And it was connecting with other spiritual practitioners of, like indigenous, spiritual practitioners. And, I had like a specifically like a mentor Luna Pantera, who I like see as a spiritual counselor from the African diaspora had a saying that, like, you need to, you need to connect with your ancestral roots, otherwise, the coming storm will sweep you away. And so just kind of seeing where we're going, like in the larger, you know, sociopolitical, economic, conflict and chaos, , it feels like we're like, especially 2016 of how do we ground ourselves? 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:57.000 And so like trying to develop an ancestral reverence like lineage practice, was was part of that journey of like really wanting to reconnect. And then also returning to Guam in 2015, with my siblings and my dad. And so like returning to the island and, and learning more of the history, in my adulthood, was really like another like another major catalyst for wanting to return to that. And yeah, so those are like, those are some, we'll take like a breath for you to ask my questions from there because it's like a lot. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.000 Yeah. On that. so could you tell me about the trip in 2015? 00:19:01.000 --> 00:20:14.000 Yeah, that was the, that was like the first and maybe last time that, my siblings and all of their kids, and my dad all would go to Guam together. And so we went for Liberation again. But that time I was, very much like wanting to learn about, like, about our history outside of, you know, like you grow up kind of like on, like I grew up really only knowing the story of the, of World War II and the Americans coming to liberate, Guam. That's like really kind of, the extent of what I knew about that. And so returning, I was trying to learn about what our practices were, like, what our history was prior to not only like the Americans, but like pre-colonization. and so, you know, I bought a, ancient Chamorro Society book, and was reading about that, just like very hungry for all of that. 00:20:14.000 --> 00:21:47.000 And, man, I'm trying to remember. I think, and we also like went to, oh my God, I'm forgetting the name. It's in the south in Inarajan. Oh my God, I'm embarrassed. This is on his, that there's a village in the south, I think it's Inarajan that is near a cave. But, where it was like set up like a, it's not an actual ancient Chamorro village, but it was set up like a ancient Chamorro village. So, going through those practices and, and then also of like talking like of having the awareness that you don't have when you're ten of like, of speaking to elders. So I would go and like, visit the elders and ask them stories about like their past and their history, and, visiting my dad's, like our family's old house and our village, and really just very, very hungry to understand, understand my people because I was, you know, at that point I was, let's see, like twenty, twenty-seven, no, anyways, I was in my mid-twenties at that point. And so just like to be in your mid-twenties and still like questioning and like wouldn't be able really to explain anything about my, like where my people come from, I think was, yeah, I was like was very much like inspired, by that, like by that trip. 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:59.000 How has Chamorro culture changed from pre-colonization to colonization to Japanese occupation, to liberation to US... 00:21:59.000 --> 00:23:28.000 How much time we got how, you know, it's, it's a miracle that like, we're here. You know, I'd say there's, there like our Hinengge, like our values, there's certain values that have survived like throughout the arc of, all of that, you know, I'd say like our, our values of like Inafa'maolek, so like of our kind of social reciprocity and mutual aid and like, I will support you and take care of you like when you're in need right now, because I know one day I'll be in need and like, you'll take care of me. Like that, that type of, that type of reciprocity that has survived amidst like, all of those changes like that, that cultural, like tenet is there. and I'd say like, , so like showing respect for, for elders, but as well as children. Like going both ways and just like a reverence for, you know, caring for those who are older than you, even if they're not your, even if you're not blood related, like they're your family, your community, like you take care of each other. you know. Mamahlao is like having, to have shame, like seeing that as like a good thing to like, Guaiya that's like the cultural value of love, like, and loving for each other. So those, there's certain values that have survived. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:24:33.000 And I'd say like really we're, it's kind of, it's existed in different forms, but of, of like our ancestral like reverence practices, our relationship with the land. And, you know, the foods that we make, those have all have survived, but so much has been lost, during, when the, I guess I mean, just to, just to kind of like set the context, like we were like the first first people to people, the Pacific. And so, you know, roughly 4,000 years ago, our ancestors from back then, like were at the edge, like maybe it was Taiwan, maybe it was the Philippines, probably not Indonesia, but maybe it was like one of those, like one of those points they were like on the, like eastern shoreline, like looking out over the Pacific, and they wondered like what was on the other side of that water. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:25:36.000 And so they, they carved a canoe by hand and filled, without any refrigeration, like filled their canoe with food and said goodbye to everyone they knew, not knowing if they would ever see anybody ever again. And just by like following the stars, like reading the stars and the pattern of the waves, [they] paddled east to try to find another land. And that's what they found this little 24 mile long island. And, actually it's like the birds that are like on the bill of my hat, the story goes that like they saw birds and so they knew if there was a bird, that there was land as they actually like followed the bird, like to Guam. So just thinking of like that and then creating this, creating this culture where like, you know, of course there was conflict, but there would be, it was like only amongst like the warrior class, and as soon as like one person was harmed, like, then it was over, like the conflict ended. 00:25:36.000 --> 00:26:38.000 and that all of our, our people, you know, that we had, we had healers, we had like Yo'amte, you know, like our medicine people who healed both like physical and spiritual ailments and used plants and, you know, I'm pretty sure the thing goes like is that people like live to be a hundred, and there was really an absence of like any disease and we had, you know, fresh water, we had birds that didn't exist anywhere else in the world. Like all these different, you know, it was like, it was like a paradise, you know, like of course there's conflict, you know, because there's human beings on there. And also there's these stories from like other indigenous tribes, like the, the Haida Gwaii, like the First Nations, who are like north of kwakwaka'wakw like of them, going across to like Taiwan and then down to New Zealand and everything like that. 00:26:38.000 --> 00:27:39.000 So like they, they went amongst other islands, like there was like international relations, but it was, there's like reciprocity and like sharing and that it was that way for like 3,500 years. Oh, also like the Latte Stone, like, it's like a really amazing thing. It's kind of like the Maria as islands versions of Easter Island, you know, it's these huge, these structures that like were carved that weigh thousands of pounds that they don't know how they moved these type of things. But that's like, we built our houses on top of those things. So there's things that are like, it's a very thriving, incredible culture that existed. And then, Guam was like the first one to be, colonized by like a European colony. So like in the, what was it like 1521 I think was when Magellan landed there. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:28:31.000 And you can like, I don't even wanna be telling like this story, you know, I'll just like, like share some of my stuff. But, you know, like, like say like my ninth great grandfather, say he was like eight or nine, like when the Spanish arrived, by the time he was 64, he was seen nine out of the 10 Chamorro people perish, either through like the Chamorro Spanish war or disease, you know, that the Spanish brought. And so just to think like, you know, my ninth great grandparents like survived a genocide, and to see nine out of the 10 of everyone they knew die, you know, like either killed or died. And just to, you know, that's like when they talk about like ancestral intergenerational trauma like that, like exists in our bones, like my bones are made of my ancestors that survive that. 00:28:31.000 --> 00:29:37.382 But that also, like, for us, it's like both trauma, but really trying to focus more on like the resilience of like, we still kept our culture alive, you know, amidst surviving, like that type of genocide. So there's like the Spanish period, which lasted from the 1500s to the1900s, and then the Spanish American War and just as imperialists do, you know, when America won the war, then the treat of Paris of 1898 was when, America "won" Guam like a trophy, but it's because it's one of the largest islands that far west in the Pacific. Like, it's the western most colony of America. It's incredibly strategically significant and important for imperial military operations. So it's like really significant. So then there's like the naval period, which is when my grandmother grew up. 00:29:37.382 --> 00:30:57.905 So like in the early 18, early 1900s , late 1800s, early 1900s, my grandmother and Gracia Tedasco Cruz, was growing up and yeah, so it was like, it wasn't run by the US government, it was like run by the, the Navy. And, just the way, like one of the stories that I connected with that is that like my dad is like, you know, he, he jokes about it as like the curse of the dirty corners, but it's like where like he always has to have, like, he can never leave the house. Like all the counters like have to be clean and like, even the corners have to be washed. And so I kind of like, it's, the way that manifests is like for me too is like there's like kind of this like low grade anxiety if things are cluttered or messy at home, because my dad always kept everything like super clean and he got that from his mom. 00:30:57.905 --> 00:31:15.000 But for his, like for my grandma Gracia, like my Nanan biha , like the Navy would come and do inspections of like Chamorro's houses, you know? And so if you have a Navy officer like coming in, in uniform inspecting the cleanliness of your house, like you have to keep it clean, like military standards type of thing. And so as a young girl, having this, like this, you know, white man in a uniform come in threatening, aggressive, like, you came in and clean, like you're gonna keep your house a certain level of clean. So those are just like small, like, you know, there's like kind of these like abstract academic things, but that's like the way, you know, it kind of like shows up. 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.000 And they weren't in the military at all? 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:21.000 No, no, no. They were, they were just living on their land, their ancestors had for thousands of years. 00:31:21.000 --> 00:32:28.000 But, you know, you know, that's just the settler colonial mindset is like, "I am here to like dominate and impose my culture and my rules and my regulations on these people." You know, one of the things that I get I think about a lot too is like before the Navy were there, I mean, yeah, Spanish, like I think the Spanish imposed some type of taxes, but like when the US arrived, they started, having the Chamorro people pay taxes on their own land that they had lived on for thousands of years. And that was like the thing I just think about for my grandparents is like, they didn't pay for food, they didn't pay for water, they didn't pay for shelter and they didn't pay for healthcare. Because like, all of that comes from the land naturally, the earth gives us that, you know, , it's like we, it's like, you know, a tree's not gonna charge us for harvesting it, you know, like our responsibility is to steward that land is to care for it, you know, so that, that those things can survive. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:33:20.000 But, and you would like for the, for the So'ampti and the Suruhanu , like you gave them food as like an expression of gratitude, so you take care of them so they can continue to do, you know, you help harvest their medicine, but you're not, you're not bringing money. There's actually, like, it's really bad juju to like give money to like a healer because that's like, that's seen as like, you know, there's, there's a lot of negative energy that's associated with like, that type of transactional thing. Like, you wouldn't, like, why would you ever pay someone to heal you? Like you're healing them because they need healed, you know? but I think it's, I really try to impart on like young people, like, like young indigenous people, and especially like young people like in the Pacific diaspora and Chamorros is like, it's not that long ago. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:34:20.000 Like the way that we're living right now is not the only mode of existence. Like, it's not like capitalism is like the highest potential of our human expression, you know? It was not that long ago. It was like in our grandparents and great grandparents generation, which is less than 150 years ago where they didn't have to pay for food and for water and for shelter and healthcare. It's not that long ago. And so another way of living does exist. It's in our lineage and everything like that. But yeah, so when theUS came, like the Navy came, they were trying to diminish the influence of the Spanish missionaries, Catholicism, just freaking wreaked havoc on our island too. But the Catholic priests held like enormous kind of sway and power. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:35:18.000 And so in a way to diminish their power, trying to lessen it, the naval officers came in and burned all the Chamorro-English dictionaries. And the sentiment at the time too was that like, if you spoke Chamorro and English, you only had half a brain in each. And so, like, people were stupid. People were looked down on for being bilingual, you know, it's like if like English is the "most superior" language. Also, there's a thing called like the Insular cases from 1901, which is [where] the Supreme Court said that these unincorporated territories like Guam, like Puerto Rico are an alien race that can't understand Anglo-Saxon principles, which is why they don't have rights. Which that Supreme Court case is still why, like is that's still today. 00:35:18.000 --> 00:36:26.000 It's not like, that's not ancient history. Like that is still like a Supreme Court ruling. That is how our islands are governed. So that's like a lot. But, so they come in and they degrade and exploit and take advantage and control and extract the resources from our land. And then the same day that, so my dad was born, November 7th, 1941. And so he was a month old that the same day that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor [it] was also the same day they invaded Guam. But the US had intelligence around that, so they evacuated the US military members, but those US military members weren't allowed to bring their Chamorro families with them. So they're just like, they're like, "You're on your own Chamorros!" I mean like, "Good luck!" you know, like, "We know Japan's coming, but like, we just gotta get our white military people outta here and like fend for yourselves!" 00:36:26.000 --> 00:37:35.000 And so yeah, my dad was like, a month old, like when it happened. And so then it was, they were under a Japanese rule, which was, and there was some ways, some ways that it was like a little better than the US but most ways it was, it was, cruel and just like an immense amount of suffering that like, I don't necessarily have the energy to unpack, you know, at 10:00 in the morning. You know, the one story I'll tell is like when the, US military campaign was coming to reclaim, you know, like they're doing their, their Pacific theater of like going to... the military campaign to take back those territories and to fight back the Japanese Imperial Army. The Japanese were afraid, like, were afraid that the Chamorro people would side with the Americans, that there would be like that loyalty and allegiance to America, and that they would help the Americans as they came in. 00:37:35.000 --> 00:38:34.000 And so they gathered up all of the Chamorros that they could find, you know, and did a forced march to the Manenggon concentration camp. So my whole family, my dad was three or four [years old] having to do a forced march, no food, no water, middle of the summer, so like nineties [degrees Fahrenheit] humid. And that's what, so my, my auntie Anna, my Aunt Anna and my aunt Maria, I think they were like probably less than two [years old], twins. They were twins and they were being carried. And, during that forced marched the first, one of the first twins, passed away because they didn't, because of those really severe conditions. And, the Japanese guard made my grandparents just leave her on the side of the road. 00:38:34.000 --> 00:39:44.000 And, and then a few miles later, the second twin passed away and my grandpa, so we have a belief, with like a, a very... I'm gonna try to like tell this part... but basically he didn't, it was important to him that they not be alone. And so he, took a major risk and when he saw, a wasp nest, a hornet's nest, stuck his foot in it so his foot would swell up and he risked that so it looked like he basically said like, "I can't walk anymore," to the Japanese guard. and they could have just shot him on the spot. They did that to a lot of [people], but they figured that he would just perish. And so when night came, he walked back, to the first twin that died and buried them together, on the side of the road so they wouldn't be alone. 00:39:44.000 --> 00:40:32.000 And then he went and rejoined his family and they lived in a concentration camp without food or water or shelter, just in the jungle. With violence that I've never experienced or witnessed. And that is very difficult for our elders to even talk about. So yeah, that was, and that's something that's not really taught outside, I mean, it is kind of known about, but it's not really taught much. That experience of like what the Chamorro people suffered in that concentration camp. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000 Would you like to take a short break? 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Ah, no. . I'll just, I'll take a water. Yeah, I'll take a sip of water. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:44.000 Okay. that's such a traumatic experience. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:41:31.000 Yeah, and it just like, it, I think, you know, there's like our, it's traumatic and it just shows like our traumatic and our resilience that we could, you know, I think that's like any time that I, I'm going through like a hard time, I'm actually planning to get a tattoo, like next time I go back to Guam of, of a hornet's nest, like on my ankle, of the hive and, and it say , which in Chamorro means "this is the way" just like you'll do the right thing and you'll take care of like, of your family and your people. 00:41:31.000 --> 00:42:26.000 Like, whatever. It's like a communal thing. It's like, not about me, it's about us, you know? And so I just have that, yeah, I think that's like probably like one of like the strongest stories that lives in me, that I got from my family, and I just feel like, [it] is important to share. But yeah, so then the Americans came and they just, carpet bombed the whole island. They indiscriminately, you know, they didn't really care if there was Chamorros there, they were, they were just trying to kill as many Japanese as possible, so they leveled the whole island. And then for my dad, so it is absolutely the, like, the living conditions, the acute violence and trauma that the Chamorro people experienced under Japanese rule is like, there's no question about that. 00:42:26.000 --> 00:43:25.000 And so in terms of like being liberated from a concentration camp, yes, that is an accurate term. So that's what our Liberation day was like when the Americans arrived and liberated the Chamorros from the concentration camp. But that's what my dad's generation calls it. You know, the elders and yeah, if you're living in those conditions, and you have these Americans come in and they give you candy and you're gonna just be so patriotic, you know. You're free from Japanese rules. So that's where so much of the, there was a legitimate like love and reverence for the US military, especially the Marine Corps, like those who arrived. I mean, that's like one of our main roads on [Guam] is like Marine Corps Drive. So there's like a, almost borderline worship of the US military because of that, for my dad's generation. 00:43:25.000 --> 00:44:45.000 However, my generation sees it as... we call like Reoccupation day, because the US military came and took over two thirds of the island. You know, like stole the land from our ancestors. As we speak, they're, you know, clearing football fields, like multiple football fields of our ancient villages and our ancient burial grounds. They're like, our ancestors' bones are just in paper bags in military offices. One of our most sacred island or sacred parts of the island, the , because of the US military, you know, this is July, 2024. Like because of the enormous amount of violence that Okinawa people have experienced in Japan and the years of resistance of trying to get the military off of there. They're moving the US military service members from Okinawa to Guam, and they're setting up a firing range, over, you know, our ancient caves like a, a place [where] an eight spotted butterfly and this flower that don't exist anywhere else in the world or anywhere else on the island. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000 This like precious, like limestone jungle that doesn't, that is like this precious one of a kind only place in the world ecosystem. They're putting in, a live firing range and doing war games and detonating, detonating, like the, it is like the, also like their way of getting rid of ammunition and things they fire from World War II and just military equipment they're not doing [anyhting with] is literally like creating like a burn pit. They're just like putting old bombs and toxic chemicals and like lighting it on fire, like on the beach, next to an aquifer that supplies 70% of the island's fresh water. You know, so like when we , when we say "liberation", you know it's a complicated term. 'Cause of course we're gonna honor our, our elders experience for like being liberated from that and are grateful to the young men who sacrificed their lives to free my elders and relatives from those oppressive conditions. 00:45:46.000 --> 00:46:20.000 And what is also true is like, it's not like we got our land back, you know? and so like we've never gotten that land back. Like we can't even go, Sumay [destroyed village in Guam] is like, you know, some of my family, we're not even able to go pay our respects to, you know, they, it's called like Sumay Day. Like, I think once a year people are allowed to go to like pay the respects to their elders, you know? So yeah it's very complicated. And, you know, if we had more time, I could even dig into that, but I'll take a breath and see what what questions are coming up for you. 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:34.000 Yeah. Sounds like all that is a very emotionally complicated feeling to have on one hand, Liberation day for your elders and the new generation is saying it's Reoccupation day and having to walk that fine line 00:46:34.000 --> 00:47:33.000 . And we'd never say that to our elders, to the face, like ever, you know. But amongst us, you know, and it's, oh man. I was, I was there for Liberation Day in 2022 and actually for the first iteration of this Prugraman Sinipok, and man, it's just like, because they just parade all of the military equipment they have there, you know, and they're not shy about it at all. You know, they call it like "America's largest aircraft carrier." It's like how they refer to our island. and, you know, it just, it's, it's so militarized and unfortunately because you have that, because the military occupies like two thirds of the island, really the only two industries are like the military and tourism, you know, and also 'cause of the Jones Act. 00:47:33.000 --> 00:48:26.000 Like, we're not allowed to like import food from other countries, you know, it's the same thing as what happens with the Puerto Rico. So, you know, it's like, even though we're so close to China and Indonesia and like all of that, all of our food has to be imported from America. And so that's why like, a gallon of milk is like 10 bucks or something, you know, . It's insane. But because there's all that like markup, you know, the Chamorro people like, yes, we're like US citizens, but we don't have any representation. We have a representative to Congress, but they don't have any voting power. and so, you know, if you, you pay the taxes, you pay for this expensive food to be imported from America, you don't have control over your own land or your own water or your food. 00:48:26.000 --> 00:49:29.000 You know, there's all of that sloganeering of like, "land of the free, because of the brave." You know, it's like the military gives our freedom's. But how free? How free are we if we don't have any sovereignty? If we don't have any say. Also because we're a pawn, you know. North Korea is always talking about like, if they're gonna shoot a missile, that's the first thing they're gonna bomb is Guam. You know, it's like we're a pawn piece in larger imperial conflicts. It's not like Guam has any hostile relations to the Korean people, or like the Chamorro people don't have any hostilities towards China, you know, but because of the US military being there, we're caught in the middle of this larger imperial conflict. So, yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:33.000 Can I shift gears, and talk about language for a second, 00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.498 Please? Yeah. 00:49:34.498 --> 00:49:43.000 Is language a way that the Chamorro people can regain part of that agency that might have been lost through colonization or occupation? 00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:58.000 Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Language is, I think language is the one of the most critical things we can do for cultural preservation and revitalization. Because there's so much of our values and our history that are woven in the language that could be lost. I have a Coast Miwok [Indigenous tribe in California] friend who, their last fluent elder passed in the seventies [1970s]. And so if they're wanting to learn Miwok, Coast Miwok, they're just listening to recordings of like, you know -- [I'm] thankful for people like yourselves who preserve that type of thing. And like, I don't ever wanna see, you know -- I will have failed the, I would have failed to fulfill the responsibility my ancestors have given me if my descendants, generations from now, are only able to hear Chamorro spoken through oral history collections, in libraries. We need to keep the language alive, you know, in like canonical terms, it is like in academic canonical terms, it's extinct. 00:50:58.000 --> 00:52:01.000 Because we only have like 20,000 speakers left in the world, and probably over 60% of those are like over the age of 80, you know, they're like my dad's generation. And so this is like an absolute critical time for us to be doing this language revitalization, and preservation and revitalization. You know, one of the things, one of the complicated things too is because we had four centuries of Spanish colonization, so much of our language has Spanish influence. So there's a lot of words. So gender comes in [from the Spanish], you know, so like saying, Maestro, Maestra, you know, instead of like, those are gender terms of like a teacher [in Spanish], but in Chamorro it's like Fafa'na'gue, you know, it's like someone who teaches and it's gender neutral. You know, there's, there's things like that in terms of like, of preserving, you know, our, our concepts of gender neutrality. 00:52:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000 I mean, one is that, you know, there's like Nana and Tata, like those are inherited terms, because prior to colonization, you know, there was, Saina was an elder, Che'lu was a sibling, and then like Patgon was a child. And so yes, you had a biological mother and father, but every elder was responsible for like caring for the children, you know, and every person your age was your sibling. And so there's that type of like, yes, that's language, but there's a worldview that exists, within understanding that framework, of like, just because we're not blood doesn't mean -- whether you're my blood relative or not, you're still an elder that I respect that I can go to, that I can count on that I also have a responsibility of caring for. Another example, you know, for Spanish, like paz is, you know, like if you're looking up like in the dictionary, like probably like the word for peace in Chamorro, but that's, that's inherited from Spanish. 00:53:03.000 --> 00:54:16.000 But [speaking in Chamorro language] that's actually like the, [speaking Chamorro language] means like "from the land." That's like the, the root of all of our Chamorro language that existed pre colonization. Hinagung is I believe breath. And so [speaking in Chamorro language] is peace. And so just like to understand those cultural concepts of like, we find peace in our breath, you know, there's, there's just these really deep spiritually culturally significant things that, come with like learning the language that -- and there's things just like, you know, the way I'm trying to parse the concepts of like mutual aid and reciprocity, like those are like the closest things that we can try to use English to explain, but there's a felt sense of Inafa'maolek like an, Inafa'maolek of like caring for each other. That is a felt embodied value and practice, cultural practice, that you can't get from speaking English. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:55:20.000 It's just, it's so critical that we learn the language and keep it alive and teach it to -- And then for me, so that's just in terms of like, in this realm, like in like of thinking ancestral reverence practices, that's another major reason I was motivated to learn the language is like I almost lost my dad in 2019. And part of my belief system is that, is to do that ancestral lineage healing is that we need to like call upon our like, well and elevated ancestors, so our ancestors that didn't experience any of this intergenerational trauma, and we ask them for their blessings to come down the lineage to heal everybody in between like me as the anchor and them as the well and elevated ancestor for us to heal that lineage. And you know, like, yes, there, I think there's prayers can be said and felt in a spiritual -- can be expressed in a spiritual sense and understood in a spiritual sense. 00:55:20.000 --> 00:56:18.000 And I think there's a critical, a thing that I, I won't even be able to explain until I become an ancestor myself, of praying, for ancestors in our mother language that just, you know. So for me, as I prepare for my dad to transition, 'cause he's 83, you know.We're all ancestors in training, and his training is nearing an end, you know? I feel responsibility to be able to call upon the ancestors in Chamorro, you know, and ask for them to support my dad's, like transition into that realm, you know. To make his transition welcoming and peaceful and loving and easeful as easeful as possible that I living in this realm can like, help support facilitate with. 00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:29.000 I know we're running short on time, so I might ask one more question. Does [attempts to say Inafa'maolek ] extend across the diaspora, the Chamorro diaspora? 00:56:28.989 --> 00:58:20.000 And so that's, that's him practicing Inafa'maolek in the diaspora. And you know, there's people who, you know, they'll see that and reciprocate, but a lot of times because that's not honored here, I think that's where a lot of Chamorros can struggle in the diaspora. Is when Inafa'maolek is not reciprocated. But, absolutely like if you see another Chamorro and they have Inafa'maolek in their heart, they will like take you in. And if I see any, I mean, that's part of me doing this interview right now is for that like Inafa'maolek of like hoping that someone watching this, you know, another Chamorro in that diaspora knows that we're here for you, you know, like Inafa'maolek exists in diaspora. You don't have to be back home for your people to care for you. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:28.989 Yeah. Yeah. I would say Inafa'maolek exists in the diaspora. That's kind of what you can -- for the like -- one way that I a quick story to tell about it was my dad was practicing Inafa'maolek, when he was a mechanic. So he really struggled [with] seeing mechanics take advantage of people, you know. Like up charging them for services they didn't need. So he started his own business and that there was a lot of conflict between my mom and dad. 'Cause she was the accountant, my dad was the mechanic. And, you know, if there was say like a starving college student or a single mom, he would go to the junkyard, find the part used, and then just charge at cost for the part and not charge any labor because they knew that mom needed her car to get to that job to feed her kids. 00:58:20.000 --> 00:59:33.000 And like, if you need support, we're here for you just need to call on us. Like, and we'll be there to support you, because, you know, one day we'll be in need of support and you'll support us, you know? So yeah, absolutely. Like Inafa'maolek is like the theme that unites us, like across all the diaspora. Actually I'll just like, if we got time. Yeah. Even during Typhoon Mawar, so that was the typhoon that hit last year [2023]. Man, if I had the statistics, we started like Inafa'maolek mutual aid and just within, you know, a few weeks we were able to get, two shipping containers full of water, clothes, generators, all of these needs that our relatives in the islands told us. Like we were able to get supplies to the most underserved communities on the island, before FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency] was able to even disperse like one emergency payment. And so, yeah, I know for a fact that Inafa'maolek is one of the things that unites us anywhere we are in the world. I think if there's like, if, if our people know that you're in need, like we will, like we'll be there for you. 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:40.000 That's great. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and, and talk to me today. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we end the interview? 00:59:40.000 --> 01:00:49.000 Oh, man. Yeah, the thing I'll just say is like, it's, I think, one of the things that really -- , I think both on island and [speaking Chamorro] like in the diaspora where they struggle with is feeling like Chamorro enough. I think just like if any Chamorro, any indigenous student, any Pacific Islander, and especially like any Chamorro, like if you're feeling like you're not indigenous enough, you're not feeling Chamorro enough, I just want you to know that like, that is the voice of the colonizer that -- I promise you're Chamorro enough, you're indigenous enough. Just you existing and you having your ancestors in your bones, you are enough. 01:00:49.000 --> 01:01:44.000 It doesn't matter. Blood quantum is a control tactic of the colonizers, you know? It doesn't matter how much blood you have, how light your skin is, how much language you speak, if you know how to make our food. You have that in your bones alone and you having those Chamorro values in your heart, that makes you Chamorro. That makes you indigenous. So, you know, don't believe the lies. Don't believe what any of those external forces that -- you know. You can just -- if you need that support, reach out to your community and ask the ancestors for that support. Because you are enough and you have so much to be proud of. 01:01:44.000 --> 01:03:01.000 We have an incredible -- the fact that you're listening to this. The fact that you're listening to this and that you're here is a testament to our resilience. And so you are our ancestors wildest dreams. And so like whatever you choose, whatever path you choose, whatever you do in your life, just know that your ancestors are with you and your community's with you, and they have your back and you're never alone. And yeah, the last thing I'll say is [speaking in Chamorro language] which is like the Creator is the Creator and we are people. so just, you know, there's only so much that we can control in this room. There's so many other things that are happening outside of like our mortal perception. So just calling the creator, and you know, calling your ancestors and calling your community for support. And I think actually we have time. I'll just like end in a chant. and this comes from, Si Jeremy Cepeda, and so this is called Manetnon Hit. 01:03:01.000 --> 01:04:02.000 Manetnon hit guini på’go, Na ta tuna si Ásaina, i Yahúlulo’, Nu i gef fina’tinås-ña siha, Nu i lina’lå’-ta, nu iya hita, Nu i mañaina-ta, nu i pa’å’-ta siha, Nu i guinahå-ta, Yan hókkokok ayu ni ha na’guahåyi hit, Taiguenao Mohon 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:06.000 [We come together here today, To praise the Creator, the Most High, For all of the great things they have done, For our lives, for each other, For our elders/ancestors, for our ancestral words of wisdom, For the things that we have, And for all of the things that the Creator provided for us, And so shall it be (Amen)] 01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:08.954 Thank you Alex. We really appreciate your time today. 01:04:08.954 --> 01:04:09.000 Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for, thank you for doing this. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:10.000 Absolutely. 01:04:10.000 --> 01:14:34.000 Appreciate your work. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White, Alex. Interview, April 18th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program hosted by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-082 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-18 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alex White Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam San Diego County (Calif.) Colorado Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alex White Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 e282ae6225774ef6b527980b1089ce42 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Karen Schaffman, June 5, 2025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jamaéla Johnson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JohnsonJamaela_FordAyana_2021-04-30_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. CSUSM Alumni;Black Student Center;Black Alumni;Black Hair Movement;, Black Lives Matter;Historically Black Colleges and Universities OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Johnson, Jamaéla. Interview April 30th, 2021. SC027-06 01:27:19 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm CSUSM Alumni ; Black Student Center ; Black Alumni ; Black Hair Movement ; , Black Lives Matter ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities Jamaéla Johnson Ayana Ford moving image JohnsonJamaela_FordAyana_2021-04-30_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d1cb5006f34388220bea424317dbad95.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Jamaéla Johnson, April 30th, 2021, by Ayana Ford, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 41 Childhood Johnson briefly discusses her childhood in southeastern region of San Diego and her appreciation for growing up with people who look like her. southeastern San Diego ; only child ; culturally dense 0 [""] 128 Discovering an understanding of Blackness Johnson speaks about how her experience in school including her first teachers of color contributed to her belief that she was capable of excelling in education. values ; gifted and talented education ; GATE ; academics ; teachers of color ; potential 0 ["[\"\"]"] 284 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Johnson talks about her exposure to Black history in school, which was superficial at first but became deeper as she as she got into high school and joined the Black Coal and Rose Society. Black history ; Rosa Parks ; Malcom X ; Black Coal and Rose Society ; Black History Month ; Garrett Morgan ; Ida B. Wells ; Civil Rights Movement ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 493 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Johnson reflects on how the Civil Rights Movement, Black feminism, and the natural hair movement played an important part in her identity development. Civil Rights Movement ; natural hair movement ; Black feminism ; Women's Center, Gender Equity Center, Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; HBCUs 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1314 Impact of the Black Lives Matter movement Johnson discusses her early recollections of the Black Lives Matter movement, with the death of Trayvon Martin. She talks about the impact of police brutality and her identity formation around being a Black student in a predominantly white institution. Black Lives Matter ; Trayvon Martin trial ; police brutality ; predominantly white institution 0 [""] 1590 Johnson’s role in the establishment of the Black Student Center Johnson speaks about her role as Vice President of Student University Affairs for Associate Students Incorporated (ASI) and how this role afforded her the ability to listen to students needs and understand their desires for a Black Student Center. She was able to then convey this information to the campus administration. During this time, she was also a member of the first all-women of color executive team for ASI. Black Student Center ; Associated Students Incorporated ; diversity and inclusion ; student advocacy ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Bianca Garcia ; Black African American fraternities and sororities ; leadership ; women of color 0 [""] 2080 Vision of the students and faculty for the Black Student Center Johnson discusses the top three priorities for a Black Student Center: community, mentorship, and scholarship. community ; mentorship ; scholarship ; vision ; Black Student Center 0 [""] 2289 University Administration’s vision for the Black Student Center Johnson speaks about two administrative priorities for the Black Student Center: acknowledging student voices and creating a vehicle for student success of some of CSUSM’s most vulnerable populations. She also discusses other campus centers that could be used as a blueprint for the Black Student Center. student success ; resolution ; blueprint ; Women's Center ; Gender Equity Center ; LGBTQ Pride Center ; California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center ; Latinx Center 0 [""] 2452 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Johnson reflects on the opposing viewpoints and tensions preceding the approval of the Black Student Center. During this time, ASI passed a resolution in favor of creating a Black Student Center but not without opposing viewpoints being shared. A list of demands was also created and sent to University administration. Black Student Center ; resistance to change ; finances ; Compton Cookout ; Black Lives Matter ; Black Power movement ; Black Student Union ; demands ; resolution ; opposing views ; task force ; Associated Students Incorporated ; heightened police presence 0 [""] 3334 The process of opening the Black Student Center Johnson discusses the lead up to the opening of the Black Student Center, including the development of a task force, budget approval, and allocated physical space. task force ; budget ; Black Student Center ; University Student Union ; physical space ; renovation 0 [""] 3561 The Black Student Center Grand Opening Johnson reflects on the grand opening of the Center, her transition from student to staff, and sitting in on the first Black Student Center director search. grand opening ; rewarding ; transition to staff ; Akilah Green ; Tiffaney Boyd ; director 0 [""] 3676 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Johnson lists organizations and people who were instrumental in the development of the Black Student Center and reflects on the connections she made through the process. Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán ; MEChA ; Kai Guzman ; Dr. Sharon Elise ; Geoffrey Gilmore ; Dr. Dang Chonwerawong ; Akilah Green ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Bianca Garcia ; Louis Adamsel ; Jake Northington ; Daniel Fare ; Dr. Lorena Checa ; President Karen Haynes ; graduation ; connections 0 [""] 4033 Early focus of the Black Student Center’s initiatives, programming, events Johnson lists some of the early initiatives of the Black Student Center including collaborations to bring in prominent Black speakers and connections with local community colleges. University Hour ; Unity Hour ; community building, community colleges ; Miracosta College ; Tulsa Race Riots ; Black Wall Street ; Dr. Cornell West ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; collaboration ; Black Panther Party ; women’s appreciation 0 [""] 4479 Insight on the main purpose of establishing the Black Student Center and its role as students return to campus post-Covid Johnson discusses how the main purpose of the Black Student Center is to have a space for Black students, faculty, and staff to be able to meet and fellowship with one another. This will be even more important as people return to campus post-Covid closure. fellowship ; Covid ; return to campus ; one-stop shop 0 [""] 4643 The Black Student Center's impact on the campus community Johnson talks about how the Black Student Center is bringing awareness to topics that affect Black people and exposing people within the campus community to specific topics and conversations. Black Student Center ; campus community ; natural hair ; Black Lives Matter ; policy ; community-based learning ; police brutality 0 [""] 4804 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Johnson Johnson reflects on how the process and the development of the Black Student Center impacted her, leading her to believe in herself and in support of a village. She also talks about how she learned to never take no for an answer. support ; doubts ; fears ; potential ; persistence 0 [""] 4958 Future expectations of the Black Student Center Johnson shares what she would like to see for the Black Student Center in the future, including space expansion, increased funding for staffing, and additional partnerships. space expansion ; funding ; staffing ; recruitment ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; partnerships ; Omega Psi Phi ; Sigma Gamma Rho 0 ["[\"\"]"] 5144 Johnson's final thoughts about the Black Student Center In conclusion, Johnson shares her hopes that the Black Student Center will continue to fulfill its purpose, expand, and endure over time. purpose ; endurance ; expansion ; future 0 [""] Oral history Jamaéla Johnson is an alumna of California State University San Marcos. While at CSUSM, she worked in various capacities on campus with the Gender Equity Center, the Black Student Union, and Associated Students Incorporated (ASI). Much of her work involved talking and working with fellow students regarding their shared needs around campus. In her interview, Johnson discusses her roles in advocating for the Black Student Center, as well as the journey towards the Center's opening. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Today is Friday, April 30th, 2021 at 11:05 a.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Jamaéla Johnson for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration with CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSU (San Marcos) University Library Special Collections. Thank you for being here. Is it okay if we start with talking with-- 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Thank you for having me. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Is it okay if we start by talking about your childhood, when and where were you born? 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:51.000 Oh sure. You just said, when was I born? When and where? Okay. I was born on (redacted), which happens to be (redacted). In San Diego to my lovely parents, Joe and Shirley Johnson, and I was the only child. So, growing up in San Diego, specifically the southeastern region of San Diego, where it's primarily Black and Latino population was very, I would say culturally dense, and I appreciated being able to grow up around folks that look like me and even from just different cultures and backgrounds, where I was able to experience a lot that I feel influenced my childhood. 00:01:51.000 --> 00:02:07.000 So that actually brings me to my next question. So, it helps you culturally, so you were saying, it helped you to culturally grow up. So how specifically when it comes to like understanding of your culture and your Blackness, how did your childhood affect it? 00:02:07.000 --> 00:04:31.000 I think it definitely was beneficial to be within a community and be brought up in a school system that reflected the things that I valued as a person, as a Black woman or a Black girl at the time and being able to be in, there was a program when I was growing up in elementary school called the GATE program (gifted and talented education), and it was like the gifted and talented, like something and where you were on this, like special track, where you, I guess were grouped with other students that scored in the same standardized test range as you--We were afforded different opportunities and field trips and to help cope with, not cope, but to help pair with the things that we were learning in the classroom and so being in that program exposed me to students that look like me that were excelling essentially in school and academics, as well as being able to see and be with my first teachers of color, and I think that was very pivotal in establishing my foundation with growing, and the different school systems that I attended afterwards, with just knowing who I was and knowing and having, I guess, faith and belief in my potential as well as the capabilities that I had to excel in education. And so, I think that was very, just very critical and just super-duper important basically (laughs) to the, I feel like who I have developed as today. 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:43.000 Okay. So, were you taught a lot about Black history and the Black experience in your childhood particularly, like in your lessons, et cetera? 00:04:43.000 --> 00:07:53.000 In my childhood I would say that I was exposed to a good amount of Black history, but I think it was very, you know, like the kind of like superficial level or key coders within, like the Civil Rights Movement and things like that. So you have your, Dr. Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, a little bit of Malcolm X, and I think as growing up within, I would say high school going into college is when I got to learn a lot more about, like my people as African American history by taking like I remember in high school I was a part of a (word inaudible) called, Black Coal and Rose Society--shout out to Miss Shaunda--that we, during Black History Month, we were, we decided to participate in this like Black history presentation, and she challenged us to try to research Black African Americans, like individuals that we didn't already know, that weren't the people that were usually in conversations when talking about Black history. And so, with that, that's when I was able to dive a little deeper in my research on the internet and be exposed to folks like Garrett Morgan and Ida B. Wells and just dive in deeper to see that there were more people that contributed to this movement. And then from there being able to go to college and select my classes to be able to deliberately take like an African American history course or even just from the past but also like modern day history, as well, with folks that are continuing to contribute to this movement and us as a people. So that was, that was very exciting but I felt like I got kind of my foundation with having conversations with my parents and specifically my grandparents that told me about their experiences with growing up in the rural South in like Monticello and Selma, Arkansas, and their experience in cotton fields and on farms and things like that and then being able to build upon that once I was able to go to like high school and then in college. 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:57.000 Ok. So, how-- 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:00.000 I hope I’m like – oh, sorry (laughing) 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:14.000 (laughing) You’re okay. How has the Black social justice and activism, such as Cvil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement, and the Black Lives Matter movement affected you? 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:24.000 Oh, that is a question. Let me make sure I have all the movements-- 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.000 We can go— 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.000 --that you listed. So, you said the natural hair, civil rights. 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:35.000 We can go one at a time if you want. So, we can start off with the Civil Rights Movement. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:10:24.000 Okay. Let's do the--okay. There we go. The Civil Rights Movement, gosh, I feel like that is such a pivotal point in our history, both being like African American, Black, as well as just American history. Just that I feel like Black African American folks went to, went through, in order to get like simple liberties that were afforded to them, and I think that was like, that influenced what I do today to be able to speak up, and if I feel like there is something that's not right like in my heart or even in my gut, to be able to stand on the shoulders of, to be, like to address it and feel confident about that when doing so because knowing about what folks went through, through the Civil Rights Movement with like, with voting rights and just being able to be people and be recognized as human beings, mind you, this is in like the 1950s and sixties, which is fairly recent. So, it's hard to not be able to look back in that particular movement because it was just like so, so, so close (laughs) for a lack of a better word, but yeah. 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:30.000 So, how about the feminism and the natural hair movement? How did those directly affect you? 00:10:30.000 --> 00:14:07.000 Feminism, especially Black feminism, plays such a major role in my identity development especially with coming to a, to San Marcos and not really being exposed to like the feminist movement or even knowing, having an idea about what that was. I never knew until I stepped foot on campus and, in particular, within the Women's Center at the time. So I began undergrad in 2011, yes, August of 2011, at Cal State San Marcos and, that my freshman year was when I decided to apply to the Women's Center that was on campus and so, fortunately, I guess I must’ve said something right because I was hired, I believe my title was like the Communications and Outreach Specialist and I just love, absolutely loved the environment that my supervisor at the time, her name was, (unclear) that she cultivated within the space, where it was so welcoming to folks that identified as women but also folks that didn't and wanted to also learn about the everyday struggles and theories within like feminism, and then she also opened the space for us as a staff to get connected with one another but also continue to strengthen our knowledge base and development as feminists within this space. And so, I felt like that was just so like crucial in my identity development and being able to recognize and bring on that identity within me so I really, I truly appreciate that opportunity as my first job ever was on campus at the, at Cal State San Marcos Women's Center, now Gender Equity Center, and being able to spend some of my most formative developmental years within that space. That I think led to just a lot of, I put it into words, but just being around folks that were just like-minded and were basically just like bad-ass feminists, like that's just what they were and being able to really back behind that movement and it was folks of all different shapes, colors, creeds, everything, men, women, transgender individuals, like you name it. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Mmm-hmm. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:21:42.000 Just being able to be a part of [unclear] and like, well, we can say, like, when I tell you it just exposed my whole mind, I'm like, We can talk about like sexual orientation and all this stuff? Like what? I cannot believe this. This is how I knew I was like in a total different world. But it was so freeing and just being in that space and Take Back the Night, like all these events that are probably--I don't know if they still do them now--but just all of these events about women empowerment and about embracing survivors and believing survivors and just about terminology with inclusive language and just all that stuff. I never looked guys in such a critical sense before being a part of the Women's Center, and I'm all like, Wow. Just like how, like, it's like the patriarchy is (unclear) in the language. I'm like, Oh my gosh. (laughs) So just coming from there and then just with the feminist and even Black feminism leading into the natural hair journey, I can remember this like it was yesterday, my God. So, being a part of the Women's Center, Gender Equity Center, for like my sophomore and junior year goes, and then, I believe, that’s when I started thinking about—no--that's when, during that same time I was also involved in the Black Student Union, and one of my good, good, good friends, her name is Akilah Green, she was the President of Blacks, of the Black Student Union, and I was the Vice President of Black Student Union, but Akilah was somebody that I always had looked up to. ‘Cause I remember like my first year on campus going to U-Hour (University Hour), and I see this bold, vibrant personality in the middle of the quad which is like in front of the library because we didn't have a student union at the time--in front of the library--and she is just like, has so much energy, she's like, that way and I'm like, Who is this person and how can I be her? Because she has this, all this energy, this liveliness and I was like, I want to be her friend. So, from that initial moment to us being a part of the Black Student Union and being a part of the leadership within the Black Student Union, we were able to kind of like mash our strengths together and say, Hey, like, this is happening in our community--we like, we always talked about Historically Black Colleges and Universities, which are HBCUs for short, and so I remember she was like, I'm going to a HBCU, I'm going to HBCU, and I remember I was like, What is a HBCU? At the time (unclear) like colleges or universities were, and I was like, what? And so, fortunately for me, she never transferred to an HBCU, which led us to like the leadership of the Black Student Union, and so, since we weren't able to go to those campuses as students, we’re like Well, let's bring some of that culture here to Cal State San Marcos. And so, I think that's when she developed the brainchild of having a natural hair show. So, I believe it was in 2015 or fourteen--it was either 2014 or fifteen. I think it was fifteen, though, when the Black Student Union had our first natural hair show and the first one I remember was a short presentation including two videos of, I remember it was like two controversial like hair-related things that happened in the news, where either somebody was getting like their hair cut, I don't know if it was their dreads or something else. It wasn't the wrestling one because that actually happened way after, but it was two controversial videos and then there was a presentation about where not loving your hair stemmed from to like modern day and then going into the natural hair movement and so hair show it was about that. The first half we had that and then we had a runway, where students and like staff, faculty, and community members can participate with being a model in the runway portion, which was like the second half and then I think at the end is when we had like a small little circle, where we were able to come together and talk about natural hair remedies, what type of products are good for certain hair textures and some things like--And we just had this heart-to-heart circle and so mind you, for the first natural hair show, it was maybe like fifteen people, maybe fifteen people, and it was all women at the time and where, I have attended like recently where it has just expanded so much, where there's been so many like different (student identity and inclusion) centers and stuff that have also took that on and being able to add to it and develop it from that. But, I'll never forget that that first initial natural hair show and the purpose behind it and the empowerment that I received from that, which planted the baby seed in my head like, I've got to cut my hair, so that didn't come ‘til like about (audio cuts out) to your chop, but I felt like that was definitely a very pivotal moment with attending that first natural hair show to be able to embrace my natural hair texture, to be able to gain the confidence enough to be on that journey and know that I wasn't by myself. So, if I did decide to do the big chop and what, and the things that come with that--both positive and negative--that I had a village around me. So, I feel like with those two movements in particular, the feminist movement combined with the natural hair movement, that helped me find my safe space, or my brave space, to be able to engage in both of those things. 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:52.000 Oh, wow. I'm so glad you're able to find that space. So, how did the Black Lives Matter movement affect you? 00:21:52.000 --> 00:26:24.000 Wow. The Black Lives Matter movement, my goodness. Gosh, just like the other things that I've mentioned I think it's like a compilation of everything, Civil Rights Movement, Black feminism, natural hair movement, Black Lives Matter. Like it's kinda’ like the (unclear) of all those things combined, and for, me with the Black Lives Matter, the first time I really heard about it, the movement was in 2012 and that was tensions around the Trayvon Martin trial, the what had happened, everything, so that's when I first started hearing about the Black Lives Matter movement. And then from 2012 to now it's still very relevant and very, I feel, necessary. Gosh, especially in the world that we're currently living in with police brutality and--not like that's been a recent development because police brutality has been around for centuries, like centuries, well before I even got here, honestly probably well before even founders of the Black Lives Matter movement was even alive. But for that to be something that is still, something that we're still fighting for and just to be recognized as human beings and for just having that movement to be able to like to reflect those thoughts and things. I think it's very important for folks that are growing up now, especially Black folks that are growing up now, to be able to have something to hold onto and I think that's what the Black Lives Matter movement represents is for folks that look like us to be able to grapple onto that and that's like a support system. But I think with the Black Lives Matter movement, it really influenced my, the way I looked at myself at a predominantly white institution as a Black student and being more conscious of who I was on campus and what community I identified with and so at the time, where the Black Lives Matter movement was gaining more traction within the media was when like--and then and allies and folks was like, Hey, like this is also affecting us as well. This is not just in Florida. This is not just in freaking Ferguson, Missouri. This is not just in these rural are, areas that are so far away from us, like this actually happens here in like our state, as well, and so from that movement is where I feel like Black students especially had to be on a kind of like a united front and realize that we need a community, we need a space, we need support on this campus and at the time the Black population--the Black student population at Cal State San Marcos--was like 3%. And I don't think much has changed since then, but we're like, We're a part of this 3%, and even though we're like a small percentage, we still want to be recognized, we still want our voices to be heard, and we need to be supported as such. 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:31.000 So, what role did you play in the establishment in the Black Student Center? 00:26:31.000 --> 00:34:22.000 What role did I play? Hmm. (laughs]) That is a good question. For me, I would say overall I feel like I played the role of the sound board for a lot of the students on campus. I say this because at the time before the establishment of the Black Student Center, I was a part of Associated Students Incorporated (ASI), which is the student governing body at Cal State San Marcos, and I remember my first position within student government was the student Rep At-Large for Diversity and Inclusion. I think that that was the title then. And I really, and I think I was the first person because they went into like this whole like title changing, role changing thing through ASI and it was the first time within that title was being available for students and so, I was able to run for that and got voted in that position and that position, in itself, I feel like helped catapult me in this whole student advocacy and policy kind of realm that I wasn't necessarily exposed to before. So, being able to serve in that position afforded me the opportunity to be able to serve on different university committees, where the only student representation might have been just me. And so, being able to be in those meetings with like vice presidents and associate vice presidents and deans and different staff on campus, to be able to be that student voice that is all through a diversity lens, that was just amazing. Both an amazing opportunity, an opportunity, but also a frustrating opportunity, as well, because just being sometimes the only student voice there and thinking that some of these conversations or some of these topics that I'm bringing up that, Of course, you all should know about this. I thought this was like common knowledge, but at the time and in those spaces, knowing that actually it wasn't common knowledge and being able to have patience but also the courage to actually say something within those meetings, in those spaces, too. So I think with that position kind of helped expose me to that--to those spaces—and from there, I was like, I really like being a part of these conversations, because I felt like I was being able to enact change through that, by bringing student voices to the table, but also bringing light to voices that are not necessarily always looked at or have been in the margins and being able to bring those voices as well to those settings. So that was such a great experience and that led me to staying a part of student government and then eventually running for the Vice President of University--Student and University Affairs--and so that was the year, I think that year was 2015-16, where myself, Tiffaney Boyd, and Bianca Garcia made up the first all-women of color exec team, and so that was what, like five years ago. Yeah. The first all-women of color exec team, us three. So, Tiffaney Boyd served as President and CEO of ASI. I served as the Vice President of Student University Affairs, and then Bianca Garcia served as the Executive Vice President. And so, within our roles, we were able I feel like to do things that we had set our minds to do at the beginning of our campaign, and I would say before even beginning my role as VP--the acronym is VP SUA--as VP SUA, I had already, I already knew what the conversations were on campus. I knew what students were talking about. I knew what students were passionate about, what they were yearning for. And I was like, I remember making a list--I think it was like maybe the summer before we started our term--of the top priorities, for me like myself, and for the students that I had conversations with was about having a Black Student Center on campus, a Black space, to be able to have Black African American fraternities and sororities on campus either--at the time it was like either/or--and then it was those, I think those are like the primarily two biggest things within that list and, being able to see both of those things come to fruition from like the very beginning until like the end of our term and graduating (unclear) things that are still on campus today, I think was extremely, extremely rewarding and as we mentioned I feel like all of those steps from like the beginning to, from like elementary school to like high school and then eventually to college, the people that I was able to meet it and so I would say at the time, I was VP student, VP SUA, but I would say like the role that I played with students that wanted this to be done and I felt like I tried to do everything within my power and within my role to be able to make that happen or at least have folks hear us out. 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:30.000 So, what do you think was the vision from the students and the faculty for the Black Student Center? 00:34:30.000 --> 00:37:47.000 The vision, I--let's see. I think the top three priorities that the students and faculty had for the Black Student Center was number one, a space to be able to develop community ; number two, the opportunity for mentorship, a space where students, faculty, and staff could come together ; and then also number three, I would just say that priority would, was scholarship. Community, mentorship, and then scholarship. Those were like the three main priorities that I remember hearing from students, staff, and faculty was to be able to have this space that could encompass all three. I remember having conversations with folks within the Black Faculty and Staff Association (BFSA), with faculty of color within various departments on campus, as well as Black and actually just students of color on campus to say that they wanted a space where they were given permission to be themselves. And I think that was something that before the Black Student Center, didn't exist on campus. There were different centers that played a role in trying to help and create and open that space for Black students, but I felt like there was just something missing, and so I think with the creation of the Black Student Center, it created that space for students, faculty, and staff and then being able with that space comes mentorship because there's this one focal point, where all these populations can come together. And then with like scholarship, to be able to have like this entity, this institutionalized entity, that can potentially fundraise and have, and be able to give out like scholarships eventually, and be able to help fund students with their academics and things like that. So, I think those were, that was the vision and the priorities for students, faculty, and staff on campus of the Black Student Center. 00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:55.000 So, to kind of piggyback off that, what do you think the university administration communicated was their vision? 00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:00.000 What do I think the university’s vision was? 00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:05.000 Yeah. The administration. 00:38:05.000 --> 00:40:39.000 Hmm. The administration. I think their vision was for the Black Student Center was student success. I think that with the administration, they heard our voices, they heard ASI’s resolution, they heard actual student voices at town hall meetings, they heard these in staff meetings with faculty and staff. I think they heard us and they acknowledged us by being able to support us or actually come together as a team to be able to bring this student center to fruition, and I think for the university administrators, for them, I think it was number one, acknowledging that--acknowledging us and our voice--and then number two, also being able to be, the Center being a vehicle for student success of some of our most vulnerable populations. And I think that was probably, I think that was like the two biggest things of what they saw the Black Student Center being as. Because it wasn't the first and nor do I think it will be the last student services center that will be on campus. But I feel like they've had a necessary blueprint with the Women's Center, now Gender Equity Center, the LGBTQ Pride Center, and the California, California Indian (Culture and) Sovereignty Center. Like they've seen these centers and how they can be resources and support for student success and so I just think it was just a, a natural but also inevitable direction into the, into the development of the Latino (Latinx) Center that is there now and the Black Student Center as well. 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:52.000 So, do you know of any pushback or anything external or internal that going, people were trying to go against the opening of Black Student Center? 00:40:52.000 --> 00:55:25.000 Shoot, the opening of it, there was pushback before it was even a, a thought (laughs). Before it was even a thought. Oh gosh, and it's so funny cause kind of look at, I feel like I haven't really thought about this and so like reflected on just the steps that took to get there. But, wow, yeah there was pushback, and I think it was something that wasn't surprising because I think with change there's always, there's always some resistance to change. And so, with the Black Student Center, I feel like throughout it all, we had more support than opposition with the Black Student Center and from its infancy stage of when--let me think, let me think-- the infancy stage. So, I would bring that back to from going back to when I was telling you that I had made, at the beginning of my term as VP, I remember it even with seeing that on paper and trying to like say like this is going to happen, there was doubts even then ‘cause I'm like, ‘cause even with like with these spaces cost money and at the time we were like, Okay, we're already paying so much for tuition. Students don't want to pay no more fees. The university is like kind of gridlock right now because, you know, the recession and all this stuff like it was like and so for the, even for us to even think of the possibility of establishing a Black Student Center there were all those things that it was already going against it as far as doubts in the mind. But once you know different political and social movements started to gain traction and more Black student voices were being highlighted within campuses, and I remember there was like right down the street at the University of California, San Diego, UCSD, they had the Compton Cookout. They had the Compton Cookout where it was like predominantly white students. I think it was like a white fraternity decided to throw this party where they did blackface and had like durags and bandanas and like it just the whole playing different stereotypes and tropes of like the Black community and different things like that. And this was a campus that was literally like thirty-two miles away us and from that and having the Black Lives Matter movement and having all these police brutality cases and incidents and all this happening and gaining traction it actually almost reminded me of the 1960s, like Black Power movement, where you saw like a lot of Black and African American students at universities, like making their voices heard, fighting back with administration and making demands and being free to who they wanted to be. So, it kind of reminded me--I think that we're in this moment like right now. It has come full circle, and the movement that we're doing is like Black Lives Matters now and so it's just crazy to see how that evolved from there. So, like from that having all of this and having students like around the nation, Black students around the nation making demands and like, You know what, we're not asking permission anymore. Like we're not asking permission, and we need these things to happen in order for us to be successful. And so, from that environment and then going into specifically at Cal State San Marcos, President Karen Haynes had a town hall meeting about, I think it was about student success and retention, and I remember there were students there, were some students there that had organized to address the President about what are these things that, what are you and your administration governance at Cal State San Marcos. And so many students were coming up to let their voice be heard by asking these direct questions to the President of the university at the time. And I remember with, walking into that meeting because, of course, I had my hat on as the VP of Student University Affairs, so, I'm here representing ASI and so was a lot of my other--I'm there to represent ASI and hear what students had to say. So, just being there and feeling just the energy in the room, but then also walking in and noticing that there are like police officers on the roof and there's like heightened police security because I guess people just assume that this was going to be a very tense town hall meeting. And I'm all like, These are students. These are students. What was the point of having all this heightened police security? And like, that was like the first time I ever seen police officers like on the roof. Our UPD (University Police Department) on the roof and like just in the surrounding areas and feel like the town--the town hall was at, is it University Hall 101? It's like that big like lecture--Oh, it's not University Hall, it’s Academic Hall. Yeah, all this, like police everywhere, but in the hall being able to be in there and see that, and I feel like that was also kind of like, whether they knew it or not, or whether it wasn't intentional or not, that was also like something like a tactic to be like of intimidation. Like you're coming to this town hall where you kind of want to express how your experience as a Black student on this campus and you're like sitting here asking the university and its administration about how they're going to support you and then you have all this police presence. So, I think that was also an example of just kind of some pushback and whether it was intentional or not, no one knows for sure. But that was just something that it still impacts, you know, the environment. And then, so from that initial town hall to like the Black Student Union at the time writing like a letter, which wasn't necessarily a list of demands, or was it? I can't quite remember, but I know it was like the Black Student Center, I mean, not the Black Student Center, Black Student Union kind of writing this organized letter like a formal letter of everything that was kind of communicated within that town hall written on paper to send to (unclear). So, like after that town hall, she was like, I hear you, reached out to like the Black Student Union and was like, can you formalize all of your requests, write them down in a document or a letter, and be able to deliver it to my office? And so, the Black Student Union was able to do that and within that letter was the formation of a Black Student Center among other things. I can't really remember what it was word-for-word, but (unclear) the letter off to President Haynes and then I think like about like a month or so later, she addressed the campus community that she was putting together a Black Student Center Task Force that would look into the funding options and to be able to develop basically like a blueprint and everything about the formation of a possible center. So, once that happened, it was like, Oh, wow, that’s (unclear) to this. And then at the same point in time, I believe the ASI—'cause one role that the student government can play is that if there is something that we would want university administration to support, like an initiative that we would want university administration to support--we do what is called a resolution, and so at that moment, and I believe it was like February of 2016, is when we had our (unclear) in where one of the things on the agenda was a Black Student Center resolution. And so, there was this support resolution that was like backed by various faculty, departments, student organizations--both on campus and off campus--even statewide that was backed, everything on this and I think you can actually look at the resolution on Cal State San Marcos’ website. They have a list of resolutions there. But it was backed by so many people, and it was supported by just people both on and off campus. And so, I remember having this AS general body meeting in February, mind you it’s Black History Month, and that's when tensions arose, like that--if pushback was coming to a head, it was at that meeting. And that's where we saw, you know, our supporters and then we also saw people that opposed it as well. Not necessarily the guests that were there but also members of our (ASI) board that represented the different colleges that were on our campus that were, that opposed the resolution. And so, that was by far like the tensest board meeting I had ever attended. And that's where we saw it on our board that clearly stated that like, that slavery didn't build the foundation of our nation. Like, you can just see like the different opposing views and arguments just within the room and yeah, it is, it's just so hard to articulate at this moment. But just being there and being present and listening to opposition’s arguments, and I hear the voices of the folks that supported the resolution, but in the end, after all that deliberation, the resolution ended up passing and so we were able to send that resolution to also President Haynes as like the official like stamp of student voices that this is what the student body wants and accompanied with the Black Student Union (BSU) letter of like demands and stuff like that. And so, from that, it was the Task Force developed and so many people served on that community, that committee and from there, I think from there that's when things started, you know, kind of steam rolling ahead. But yeah, I feel like there was pushback from like the very beginning from even getting it from just this thought or idea or vision to the actual fruition of it. 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:35.000 So, after that the Black Student Center was opened--after all the deliberation? 00:55:35.000 --> 00:58:27.000 So after, let's see, so we had the town hall meeting, there was the ASI meeting for, to pass the resolution. There was the BSU letter of like demands and then the Task Force was created and then after the Task Force and the budgetary things were kind of outlined, it went to another committee within the university, I think it was the university’s like, I forget, I forget what the acronym is now, but it was like the university's budgetary committee, and then it passed then, and then that's when like, the construction and stuff started for the Black Student Center. So, at this time, the University Student Union was already created, and it was already up and running and where the Black Student Center sits now (unclear) tranquility room, it was two tranquility rooms and like, an extra kitchen area, I think for that, I think it's that Jazzman’s, Jazzman's coffee shop there. And then, so they ended up relocating like the tranquility room and things, and like (unclear) of like the space, because the goal was to have it a part, to be with the rest of the student centers. So, since there was no more room on the third floor of the University Student Union because I believe it's like the Pride Center, Gender Equity Center, the Latino (Latinx) Center, because before the Latino(x) Center that was a social justice and diversity library in that space. So, they had renovated that space, made that to, made that the Latino(x) center and then there was the Cross-Cultural Center. Since all those spaces were taken up on that third floor, they had renovated that fourth-floor section to be, to house the Black Student Center. And so construction, reconstruction for that I believe started in, started in 2016. Yeah. Like starting in 2016. And then yeah, it was ready for like the grand opening that following year. 00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:34.000 And were you able to attend that grand opening? (technical difficulties) 00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:35.000 --Sorry? 00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:38.000 Sorry. Oh, no, no continue. Sorry. You cut off oddly. 00:58:38.000 --> 00:59:18.000 Oh, oh, okay. I said, so it does kind of seem a little fast, but I think all in all it was about like a three-year process, and I think what made it a little easier, too--and I won't necessarily say easier--but I feel like there was already kind of like a foundation and blueprint kind of laid out with the Latino(x) Center that had been created like I think a year or two before. So, they kind of engaged in the same process. Yeah. But you were saying about the grand opening? 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:23.000 I was just asking, were you able to attend? 00:59:23.000 --> 01:01:03.000 I was and that was such a great experience. I was also able to sit in on the initial hiring cycle for the first Director of the Black Student Center. Because fortunately after I graduated, I was able to land a job in the Global Education Office on campus and so, I was able to transition from a student to staff and sit in on those meetings and hiring presentations. So, I was able to meet and connect with the Director of the, the first Director of the Black Student Center, and then I was able to attend the grand opening of the center, which happened to be in February of 2017, I believe, with Akilah (Green), who I said was so instrumental and connected me with (technical difficulties, unclear) on campus and (Tiffaney) Boyd, who was the sitting President while I was VP of ASI. And we were able to have, to share a few words at the ceremony and be a part of the whole, the whole celebration. And so, that was very, very rewarding to see something that I feel like we had put so much energy into to finally come back to campus and see it as an actual space. 01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:16.000 So, to kind of go back here. So, do you have any specific names or groups of people that you want to say, talk about who like helped with the opening of the Black Student Center? 01:01:16.000 --> 01:06:35.000 Oh my gosh. Oh, I wish I could like, could have thought about this to write down a list! But, oh my gosh, goodness, I am going to start from, let's see from the, I would say from like the bottom up because it was (grass)roots initiative. First, I would like to thank, or I would like to give recognition to the student organizations that helped support the Black Student Center initiative, and there was so many, there was, and if I forget anybody charge it to my head and not my heart, please. It was the feminist was, it was the, what was that? What was that collective called? Of course, it was the Black Student Union. It was MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán) at the time. It was KA, I think it was Come Along, Come Along Alliance. I'm probably butchering that name, but KA. It was like a coalition of social justice something. It was a student organization that they contributed a lot. Specific names: Karen Guzman (transitioned to Kai Guzman) she was instrumental. Or--instrumental. Her pronouns are they now, so they, they were instrumental in helping to articulate and be at the forefront of voicing their specific experience on campus. They were just able to just share their support with, with the initiative. So big shout out to--oh, and they don't go by Karen Guzman anymore. It's Kai. Yes. Big shout out to Kai! Shout out to or bringing recognition to our Sociology Department. I believe she was the chair at the time, Dr. Sharon Elise, and Geoffrey Gilmore, doctor--Oh my gosh. The list goes on. Dr. Dang (Chonwerawong), she's no longer at the university anymore, but she was over like student support like services (Student Academic Support Services) and stuff like that. Dr. Dang. Gosh. Akilah Green, Tiffaney Boyd, Bianca Garcia, Louis Adamsel, Jake Northington, Daniel Fare, just, gosh there's so many people. But those folks as well as even the support of our administrators, such as Dr. Lorena Checa and President Haynes, President Karen Haynes, for being able to hear our voices and acknowledge them and also being able to support that. Yeah, gosh, I--that's so crazy. I'm totally blanking, but there was, there was so many people, so many people. I remember reflecting after like graduation how, after everything has settled down, and really thinking about like my journey as the student and the connections that I made and even how those connections and relationships played a role into like the development of the Center, and it was like, if I would have never did this, and I would have never met this person and this person, and we would’ve never been there in order to have this occur and like—so, I think the universe and God works in just extraordinary, amazing ways and just to see how everything just the small things and the intricacy of how relationships and building bridges can lead to so many, so many things. So, yeah, that's all, that's what I can remember for now, but as I mentioned, if I forget anyone, please charge it to my head and not my heart. 01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:54.000 (unclear) So can you tell me a little bit about the early initiatives and programs and events that the Black Student Center focused on after its opening? 01:06:54.000 --> 01:11:36.000 Gosh, let me think. I think that--I could remember a lot more--but that was like four years ago, and I guess I have a horrible memory. But I believe the events and stuff that the Black Student Center focused on was building community. So, with University Hour being a thing, so I think it was like Tuesdays and Thursdays from the hours of twelve and one is like a no class period and so having events that built community within that timeframe so that students can come and visit the space and also be able to meet people. I think that was like a big thing and so there were different, what were the talks called? There was like a series that they would have, (unclear) of a weekly thing where students could come. I think right now they have something called Unity Hour but before that, it was something else like (unclear) lunch and learn or something like that. I don't know. But I know that was a thing also with being able to bridge partnerships with the local community colleges. So, for Black African American students that were transferring to cultivate that relationship with the campuses there, so that way there will be a good transition, where students know like when they come to campus that this is a resource for them. I know that was a big thing and specifically with the Umoja program that was at MiraCosta (College) and then also being able to bring folks on campus like different speakers and things like that. I remember like a comedy show, where this pretty big comedian came, and that was pretty cool. Being able to attend an event with the Black Panther Party. So, members of the Black Panther Party came, and that was an event. Also, about the Tulsa, the Tulsa Race Riots that happened and so like Black Wall Street, with the city (district) of Greenwood (Tulsa, Oklahoma) so being able to have representatives that are a part of that history to come and actually shed light on that event that happened for foundations that are associated with that. Being able to see and take a picture with Dr. Cornell West. I thought I would never, ever like meet him before. And so, then being able to help and—also, I won't say that the Black Student Center was the sole department to put on these events--but they were able to work with in collaboration with other departments on campus as well. So, like the Office of Inclusive Excellence and (unclear) and all those different departments, too, they were able to collaborate together, as well as the Black Faculty and Staff Association. But to bring these prominent Black folks on campus and have students be able to meet these people or be able to hear like kind of what they have to say, give advice and things like that, so opening that opportunity, that's what they were able to do that bring those events, those larger scale events to campus, too. So, I would say like in the beginning the Center primarily focused on community building, making sure folks knew that the Center was there and for them to utilize, and also being able to bring these big names to campus and building relationships with the local community colleges in in the area. 01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:39.000 So-- 01:11:39.000 --> 01:12:44.000 Oh, I would say, before I forget--because I remember this--I would say, one of the events that still sticks with me today, one of the first ones that the Black Student Center did was a Black women's appreciation luncheon, and that was our first time a center had held that on campus that I believe (unclear) Black women and where I was able to see a good amount of Black staff and faculty on campus that were able to come into the Black Student Center, like for the first time, and then actually receive a certification, not a certification, but a certificate and like free lunch of being appreciated. And so, I really appreciated that moment and being able to be a part of that. 01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:55.000 (Unclear) Do you know any of like wrinkles or problems that happened during the early days of the Black Student Center? 01:12:55.000 --> 01:14:28.000 Any wrinkles or problems? Let's see. Any wrinkles or problems. You know. Hmm. Not that I can really remember because in my experience at the time I was a staff, so I wasn't able to be in this space as much as like students were or other folks were, so I didn't really hear like too much about, especially if anything negative was happening in the Center. So as far as there being any like, can't really say too much about that because I wasn't, I wasn't privy to the information or anything like that. I think, only one thing that I can think of is like, I think just the formalities of hiring for student assistants. I think, I don't know if, yeah, how that went, but that's just stuff that I heard. 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:38.000 Okay. So, in your opinion, what do you think the main purpose of the Center's creation was? 01:14:38.000 --> 01:15:34.000 For me, I think the main purpose of the Black Student Center was to have a space for Black students, Black faculty, and Black staff to be able to meet and fellowship with one another. And with that, with folks being able to come in this space to build this community, I think, led and leads to mentorship, scholarship, and other opportunities that we’re not necessarily privy to when we're in our silos. But I think the Center creates that space for us to really come together and be able to, a knowledge tank basically and exchange knowledge with one another. 01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:38.000 Do you feel like that purpose is being accomplished as right now? 01:15:38.000 --> 01:16:50.000 Right now it's kind of hard ‘cause we're in Covid times, and you know, folks aren't necessarily on campus as of yet, but I think that if it's not being done right now, I think it's going to be even crucial for when students do return to campus and for students that are anticipating on applying to Cal State San Marcos, for those students to know that this is a space that they can come to when they need help, when they need support, when they need resources, when they need to be connected to somebody on campus. I feel like the Black Student Center should be that one-stop shop for those students that are looking for those answers. Yeah, I think the role that the Black Student Center plays is going to be even more important as students start to come back to campus, Black students just start to come back to campus and staff and faculty for that matter. 01:16:50.000 --> 01:17:00.000 So, do you, how do you think the Black Student Center affected the community, the campus community as a whole? 01:17:00.000 --> 01:19:46.000 As of right now? I think it has, gosh, I mean, that's kind of hard to say because I'm not on campus anymore, but I think what I could gather from just the different like emails and social media postings is that they're bringing awareness to topics that affect Black people, certain things that, and I think that is helping to expose folks within the campus community that haven't had the opportunity to engage in those types of topics or conversations, for them to be able to have the ability to now and present that space for them to be able to engage in those types of things as well. Like talking about natural hair and talking about even different policies and legislations that maybe other folks within the campus community didn't know about, weren't aware about or didn't know how that impacts, you know, students or Black students specifically. That's one thing, but also about just other different topics that we talk about with how important community-based learning is to Black people like and being able to explore their research (unclear) when they apply that to within the classroom or even outside of the classroom. Also, about just different, you know, current events that happened, um, within the world. So specifically like with the Black Lives Matter movement and police brutality and the different cases that are associated with that--being able to have that space to talk about those things, not just within our community but also within the campus community as well, to see how other folks are dealing with these types of things that happen and for there to be healthy conversations that can come with that. 01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:56.000 So how has the Black Student Center impacted you personally? I know you’ve touched on it a bit, but-- 01:19:56.000 --> 01:22:29.000 Yeah, Black Student Center impacted me personally. I would say it’s more like, I guess, theoretical than like literally because I wasn't able to experience this, the space, as a current student. But just the process and the development of this, of the Center, it had impacted me in so many ways to believe in myself and my potential, to believe in the support and the village, how necessary it is to have a village around you and have folks and relationships of support. It has also impacted me in a way to know that (technical difficulties) used to love and it's from, I first heard it from A Cinderella Story with like Hilary Duff. But I think someone had told me that somebody else has said it somewhere but anyways, I think it was like Babe Ruth or something. I don't know, but it's a baseball like analogy and it's, “Never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game.” And for that, I could say that is applicable for the Center because, as I mentioned before, on that little piece of paper like there were so many doubts and fears that came with for that to even potentially be a thing. To not let in those doubts and fears, keep me from being a voice for students, being able to build and nurture those relationships on campus and not taking no for an answer. And I think that has helped to, the Black Center, the Black Student Center has helped to reinforce, to reinforce the power in my potential and even the folks around me and like leave your mark on campus. 01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:38.000 So, you've seen it grow and evolve. So, what do you want next, to see next for the Black Student Center? 01:22:38.000 --> 01:25:30.000 I would like to see the Black Student Center expand in space. I would like to see more funding put towards the Black Student Center to support additional roles within the space. So, for there to be like a Director and Associate Director, a coordinator, graduate assistants, student assistants, a team of volunteers. I would like to see for more funding to be put towards the Center to expand the staffing, as I just mentioned. I would like to see the Black Student Center really pushed to go against the grain, to tap into different areas that are not necessarily looked at on an everyday basis to continue strengthening the relationships that the university has with the community colleges but specifically with the Black organizations on those campuses to increase, you know, the Black student population to push them in a role in recruitment of Black faculty and staff, to be able to work in partnership with the Black Faculty and Staff Association as well as like other entities on campus like Omega Psi Phi, Incorporated, and Sigma Gamma Rho, Incorporated, to do like a Black student orientation or even a high school conference or with the Black Student Center, honestly, there are so many avenues that it could go down that will ultimately lead to student success, specifically with our Black students. And so, I'm just excited to see direct--the direction that they take especially after students return to campus. And just seeing the continuation of the events and programs that they already have as well as being able to tap into other workshops and things that they haven't necessarily explored yet, too. 01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:36.000 Well, those are all my questions for today. If you have, do you have anything else to add or anything you would like to say? 01:25:36.000 --> 01:27:03.000 I would say, well, let's see, is there anything else I would say? I think the last thing that I would say is that I truly and dearly hope that the essence of the Black Student Center continues to fulfill its purpose at Cal State San Marcos. And I hope that it will endure forever and when I go back and visit the campus like ten, twenty years from now that it is not in the same area with the same dimensions that it before I was, I mean, after I was a student, or during the time I was a student, but that it has expanded and its initiatives have expanded and it is still present, it's still a presence and dynamic as ever on the campus. So that is, that is one thing that I hope for, for the Black Student Center is that it stays and remains like on campus fulfilling its purpose. 01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:09.000 Well, I'm glad. Thank you so much for allowing me to interview today. It was a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:16.000 You're welcome. Thank you. Gosh, you got my wheels turning today. (laughs) 01:27:16.000 --> 01:27:18.500 I'm glad. Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title A name given to the resource Johnson, Jamaéla. Interview April 30th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Jamaéla Johnson is an alumna of California State University San Marcos. While at CSUSM, she worked in various capacities on campus with the Gender Equity Center, the Black Student Union, and Associated Students Incorporated (ASI). Much of her work involved talking and working with fellow students regarding their shared needs around campus. In her interview, Johnson discusses her roles in advocating for the Black Student Center, as well as the journey towards the Center's opening. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-06 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamaéla Johnson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos, Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos--Students Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jamaéla Johnson Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. <span data-contrast="auto" xml:lang="EN-US" lang="EN-US" class="TextRun SCXW102966250 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW102966250 BCX0">Black Student Center Oral History Project</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW102966250 BCX0" data-ccp-props="{}">&nbsp;</span> Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ariel Stevenson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 SC027-02 00:57:14 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm Activism, Student ; Anti-Black racism ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Student success, Black ; San Marcos (Calif.) Ariel Stevenson Ayana Ford mp4 StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4bba51350f71895f7c2665d9240d7951.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Oral history interview of Ariel Stevenson, April 15th, 2021, by Ayana Ford, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 31 Childhood Stevenson talks about being raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, in a tight-knit community with a high population of Black folks. Warren, Ohio ; Farrell, Pennsylvania ; community ; small population 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 163 Black identity and conception of Blackness Stevenson discusses her early knowledge of being Black and the importance of her community center in shaping that conception. She reflects on a negative experience she had outside of her community. community center ; Black identity ; Black pride 0 ["[\"\"]"] 315 Impact of Black advocacy and social justice movements Stevenson reflects on her family as a key influence in her cultivation into Blackness and Black history as well as her civic engagement in her younger years. active ; activated ; family influence ; Sandusky, Ohio ; Kent State ; mayor ; politics ; civic engagement ; natural hair ; community cultivation ; Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter ; Buffalo Soldiers ; Karamu House ; Underground Railroad 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 594 College experience Stevenson talks about getting her undergraduate degree at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania. Upon moving to North San Diego County to pursue her master’s degree at California State University, San Marcos, she found racism that was reminiscent of her time spent in Ohio. master’s ; California State University, San Marcos ; Reading, Pennsylvania ; Albright College ; racism ; North County 0 [""] 681 Early campus spaces, outreach to Black students by Black staff and faculty Stevenson discusses the lack of campus spaces when she first arrived and the role of Black faculty and staff on campus in outreach to and retention of Black students. Her first position on campus was at the front counter, where she interacted with many prospective Black students and their families. Students lead the campaign for a Black Student Center, but faculty and staff encouraged them. space ; belonging ; University Student Union ; Clarke Field House ; Markstein ; Social and Behavioral Sciences Building ; entry-level position ; front counter ; orientation ; African American Faculty Staff Association ; Black Faculty Staff Association (BFSA) ; retention ; families ; cold calls ; welcome program 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1102 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation Stevenson speaks about how because the Black student population was small, it was important that Black students had a place to gather and be in community with one another. In this place, students could discuss shared experience amongst peers. Black population ; presence ; representation ; student experience ; peers ; gather 0 [""] 1272 Opening of the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects on the opening of the Black Student Center and the important ways that different student groups, such as students affiliated with the Latinx Center advocated for the Black Student Center. Jamaéla Johnson ; Tiffany Boyd ; Darniesha Thornton ; and Dani Thornton, Akilah Green ; strong women ; Latinx Center ; Black Lives ; Asian Americans ; Dr. Luke Wood ; advocates ; President Karen Haynes 0 [""] 1537 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Stevenson speaks about opposition to the opening of the Black Student Center, including calls for a white-only space and resistance to the Black Lives Matter movement. She also talks about the people and strategies combating the social tension. Daryl Smith ; white space ; Ku Klux Klan ; Conversations that Matter ; Dr. Sharon Elise ; Dr. Melina Abdullah ; Black Lives Matter ; social tension ; Gloria Ladson-Billings ; resistance 0 [""] 1831 University Administration's vision for the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how University administration attempted to work with students in designing the space and budget. She specifically reminisces about the first three women of color to serve as the Associated Students, Incorporated leadership. These women had to be persistent in the face of opposition. Dr. Lorena Checka ; assignment ; budget ; research ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Jamaéla Johnson ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; leadership ; women of color ; persistence ; opposition 0 [""] 2068 First visit to the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects fondly on the opening of the Black Student Center. However, the opening of the Center was not a panacea, and challenges continued to exist. celebration ; dashiki ; Black student retention ; challenges ; Black Lives Matter ; Latinx students ; Floyd Lai ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2322 Early focus of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses her excitement to be involved with the Center. She states that the expectation of some that the space would be the end all be all for Black students and issues was problematic. excitement ; Student Affairs ; Academic Affairs ; vision ; Black scholars ; Black scholarship ; end all be all 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2424 Initiatives and programming in the Center's early days Stevenson lists some of the early initiatives of the Black Student Center including collaborations with the intent of highlighting Black faculty and staff on campus. Black step shows ; Black Wall Street ; Black Panthers ; Hidden Figures ; Black Excellence Month ; Unity Hour ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; programming ; interests 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2577 Hurdles in the early days of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses the nascent mission and goals of the Center when it opened and how this could lead to conflict. Once again, the idea that the space could be everything to everybody was not coming to fruition. mission and goals ; inclusive environment ; pandemic ; identity ; conflict 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2727 Purpose of the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how the Black Student Center should be a hub for Black student success and those in roles that are working to make this purpose a reality. Black scholarship ; Black student success ; gather ; be in community ; facilitator ; hub ; John Rawlins III ; pandemic ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; identity crisis 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2991 Impact of Black Student Center on Stevenson Stevenson speaks about her love for the Black Student Center as a welcoming space and collaborative colleagues. space ; welcoming ; events ; collaboration ; conversation 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 3060 Future expectations for the Black Student Center Stevenson shares what she would like to see for the Black Student Center in the future, including a continued focus on Black student success and scholarship. Black student success initiative ; John Rawlins III ; collaboration ; scholarship 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3130 Stevenson's role on campus as Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives Stevenson discusses her role on campus as including the broad umbrella of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. She works with faculty to revise curriculum, creates and implements trainings, and builds relationships so that this work will be done across campus, not just in the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives ; Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Chief Diversity Officer ; inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice ; anti-racist ; implicit bias ; curriculum ; Faculty Center ; Ethnic Studies ; facilitate ; build relationships ; Dr. Ranjeeta Basu ; capacity ; President Ellen Neufeldt 0 [""] 3376 Stevenson's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project In conclusion, Stevenson expresses her excitement about the Black Student Center Oral History Project and her appreciation to the University Library for their partnership. institutional memory ; University Library ; students ; partnership ; research ecosystem 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] oral history Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Okay. Today is Thursday, April 15th, 2021 at 11:35 AM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Ariel Stevenson for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Thank you for talking with me today. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Absolutely. Happy to be here. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 I'd like to start by talking about your childhood, when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:04:46.000 Okay. Childhood. Born in Warren, Ohio, raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, super small population. The size of my community is not even three miles in Farrell, Pennsylvania, all the way around. For the size, population, I would say probably under two or three thousand. I'll have to look it up. Super, super duper small community. Most of the people in that community come from working-class communities, middle-income communities. At the time, factories and steel mills and those kinds of companies existed when I was younger, but those jobs started to fade away as I probably--by the time I entered maybe seventh and eighth grade. So, just a lot of working-class folks in those communities, right? Like when I think back on my childhood, ‘cause you surprised me with that question, I think about like being from one of the, they call them weed-and-seed communities, right? So, from the Department of Justice, kind of like the war on criminal activity and drugs. Right. Which is interesting because the community is so small. So, thinking about maybe even being policed in a community that was policed--looking now back then--but it didn't feel like that growing up. I remember just like football games and neighbors and fun and super love. And when you say community really being in like a community, right? Like parents knowing other parents really closely, looking out for one another, really tight knit, and most importantly for me, our Black community and with Black identity. I knew I was Black at a young age. That was super important for good reasons and when I would travel outside of my community, for other reasons. Like I remember being at my auntie's house, and we were playing kickball on the street, and this car with a Confederate flag, right, yells “get out the street, n-word.“ And then it becomes this whole thing in the neighborhood. I remember that, and I was a little girl, and so, you know, having that, even in the eighties, late eighties. Right. But in the nineties really just formulating who I was in my Black identity, because I went to a community center, it literally it was the center of our lives. My mom worked many jobs and so after school, we were at the center until it closed, and we did our homework there, and we wrote essays there, and we learned how to play chess there. And we learned how to garden there--guerilla gardening, which we used to like go to empty lots and plant seeds and grow food like for the community, right. Like the state or the government owned it, and we were like, We're going to take it back. Doing that at a young age because we had a lot of--when I was growing up-- there was a lot of Black pride. So, we had a lot of folks who were Africanists and being Black and proud and African identity, knowing that you were more than a slave was like super important in our history. That's what we were taught a lot at the community center. So, very fond memories of my childhood in my formative years, but definitely one that shaped who and what I am today. And that I'm proud of, yeah, super proud of. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:09.000 That's wonderful. That was actually my next question on how that shaped you. So, specifically on when it comes to the Black social justice movement, such as the Black Lives Matter movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the feminism movement, and the natural hair movement. How do you think those affected CSUSM and you personally? 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.000 That's a big question. [laughter] 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:16.000 We’ll start with you, like, how did that affect you primarily? 00:05:16.000 --> 00:09:04.000 So, because I came from a place where I was already cultivated in Blackness, and I say this, like, I remember being young and my uncle, my family was always active and activated. And so, things that they did not like in the community. So, the community where my mom came from where I was born, right. We were still pretty active ‘cause that's where my aunties, my grandmother, and my family lived. And then even though I was raised at another school in another community, you know, my mother, we were always back and forth. And so, I just remember, you know, stuff on the news where--I remember these things, Ayana you are recalling some things--like with the police pulling over this guy with a broken taillight. He ends up, you know, getting beat. I remember Sandusky, Ohio. And then I remember working there in the summers for college and Black folks having a very, having to protest in that area because of what was happening to Black college students. I remember my uncle running for mayor. He was going to be the first Black mayor at that time. And he went to Kent state, which is significant because I think during that time, that's when the shooting happened of a Kent state student, historically, if I'm not mistaken. My uncle, he's no longer with us anymore. But I say that to say like, so politically, my family has always been involved. I even remember from my civics class, being like the seventh grade and volunteering to count votes and doing the--this is how old I feel now--doing the chalk and writing the names on the board in the community center. And as it was coming in, really playing a role of like helping to count up the votes, where are we? Right. ‘Cause it's a small community. So, really every vote counting. I remember those things. I remember being like, when I was on, when I used to cheer, natural hair back then it wasn't as prevalent as it is now. But there was a--she's a woman now--there was a girl, she was a year older than me. And she was on the team, and she started just wearing her hair natural. And she was like, Why would I straighten my hair every day? And I was like, Why are we straightening our hair every day? Especially if the perm doesn't even take, like and it's a whole process. And I remember being seventeen or eighteen and wearing natural hair. And it was not the thing, Ayana. It was very much like, Why did you cut off all your hair? You know, people not thinking I'm not as pretty anymore. ‘Cause I had, you know, nice thick hair. So, all of those things, I had already gone through those things and those processes at a young age. So, by the time I came to Cal State San Marcos and even when I went to college, like I should say and also note I grew up--because I grew up in a Black community--I also went to a high school that was majority Black, my vice principal was Black, my science teachers were Black. And so, that's what I mean when I say I was cultivated. And when I went to undergrad, I had a very shocking, like Where are all the Black people? kind of moments. And so, what was good is that I was cultivated by my community, and so even though I was shocked in undergrad, I was, I felt prepared for the things that came with that and the experiences. So, by the time I came to Cal State as a master's student and as a working professional, that was seen in terms of like natural hair or what were the, some of the other things you named, Ayana? 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.000 The Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter movement-- 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:53.000 Right. The Civil Rights Movement, like growing up knowing those things. Just because when I went to the community center, we learned about the Buffalo Soldiers and then we would go to the Karamu House in Cleveland, and they would do the play. And then at the bottom, they would do the tour of one of the places along the Underground Railroad because it was built on top of it or near it, where we would do a tour. So, the Civil Rights Movement and those teachings were a part of how I was cultivated as a young Black girl and transitioned into my later years. And so, Cal State San Marcos, I was just ready for it all, you know, is how I'll say it. 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000 So, did you go straight from high school to Cal State San Marcos? Or did you go-- 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:39.000 No, I went to, I did my master’s at Cal State San Marcos. I did my undergrad, so I went from high school to college, and I went to college outside of Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, at this place called Reading, Albright College. And then from there, I worked for a year and then I moved to California because when you're from the East coast, you know, people talk about California in this way, like the sun and the trees, and so you're excited. And my mom, when she was younger, had moved to California--my mom and dad for a little bit--and so I had always had this fantasy about California. 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:40.000 Um-hmm. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:58.000 So, I showed up, and I was like, This felt like Ohio, politically and socially, at least in North County, where I'm located and where I stay. So yeah, they got the palm trees and the sun, but racism is very similar. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:18.000 That, yeah, I’ve been to the South, and I know that there's a kind of in that area. It’s very hard. So, have you seen, so during your time there, have you seen it like directly affect CSUSM and like the opening of the Black Student Center and stuff like that? 00:11:18.000 --> 00:14:24.000 Yeah, I mean the student would come, and they talked about it for a while. Like not having a space and not having a place and not feeling like they belong anywhere. And at that time, there was no USU (University Student Union), so let's just be clear. The Clarke Field House was the main multipurpose space for everything that we had had on campus. At least my time. I came to campus at year, 2006 to 2007? So, I've been with the campus it'll--on the seventeenth--ooh, it'll be fifteen years that I've been with the campus. Yes, my whole youth. So, the campus at that time, it was growing, like Markstein was like the newest building and there was no SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences Building), there was no USU--I already said that. Yeah, a lot of the building, there was no bench that's out there--that bench from the last president. It just looked different, and students would come to our--first, you know, I haven't always worked in the inclusive excellence office. So, my entry-level position was at the front counter, and I loved it because I feel, like I really feel like it's the gateway to students and families, and I would come, and I would see so many families and so many students. And I would interact with them prior to orientation because you know, we're helping them navigate, like what's missing on their application or if they have questions or the parents have questions. And so, that's how I first started to get to know a lot of the students that came through. But a lot of the students that were Black remembered my face and the other woman who was working, who was Black at the time. So, they would just come back because they remembered seeing me at orientation and whenever they would have a question, they would feel comfortable. And I would say, you know, You're here, we welcome you here. And whatever I could do for your experience to enhance it, to make it better, to help you navigate, I'm happy to do that, right. Because even, you know, you work your job, well--as sometimes on this campus as Black folks--you work your job, but you also work other jobs in this labor. And so, when there wasn't a space for Black students, the Black faculty and staff, we were the space. At the time was called African American Faculty Staff Association. And a lot of the programming is now called Black Faculty and Staff Association (BFSA) to be more inclusive for Black-identifying folks from all over the Americas. Right. All over the world. When they come to Cal State San Marcos so that they see themselves and their identity. Were you going to ask me another question? 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:35.000 Oh, I was actually going to ask you about, so early on, did you hear like a lot of the push for the Black Student Center? Like a center for students who identified as Black or African American? 00:14:35.000 --> 00:17:08.000 I felt like it was a push for, by students, yes, and led by students. But faculty and staff wanted them to have a space as well. Because going back to what I was saying is that, like, we just felt like the retention of our students, they were, they didn't, they didn't have anything. They didn't have anybody but us, as faculty and staff members, right. That's why I talked about, like, just being at that front counter and welcoming students, like that seems like a small thing. But seeing, like students have told me and their families, like, you know, I told my, I told my daughter, I told my son to like, you know, that lady, Ms. Stevenson, you find her ‘cause she's going to be helpful. She said she would help you. And they would come back. And so like, we became Black bodies at Cal State San Marcos became the institution for Black students. So, to answer your question, yes, students definitely led it, but faculty and staff definitely encouraged them to say, Yeah, you do belong. You should have a space. There's nothing wrong with asking for a space, yeah. ‘Cause we would even do cold calls, like Black Faculty and Staff Association would get on the phone—that’s how you know it's back in the day. And if students did not do their intent to enroll, we would call, we would have like a couple of days and we would split it up, and we would get in the office because, you know, we needed an outreach office or we used the outreach office. They would let us use it. And they would let us use their phones, and we will sign it for a few hours. And we would say, May first is coming. Right. Like right now. And if we didn't see it, We want you to choose Cal State San Marcos. We are Black Faculty Staff--or African American Faculty Staff Association--and we want you here. We'll, you know, take care of you. We'll love on you. We did, Ayana, we used to. And I smile because it's some of my best memories because you know, cold calling students, you know, we use everything now digitally, but calling them, a phone call meant something. Even, you know, twelve years ago, fifteen years ago, it meant something. It meant we want you ; we care about you. And you could come to us, and it meant to parents that they were in good hands, that even if whatever was happening or whatever their thoughts was about the institution that as Black Faculty and Staff Association, we were trying to dismantle those thoughts and say, No, you know, we'll still, we'll look out for them. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:14.000 That's, that's wonderful. ‘Cause that would probably get a lot of students to feel welcome to come to San Marcos. 00:17:14.000 --> 00:18:09.000 We used to have a welcome program. I still think we have, it's just a little different. So, we would, you know, we would call them and then we'd have the welcome program. And the admissions director would be there and all the key resources and support for mental health for all of the Black faculty and staff, it was like a big deal. ‘Cause then they would come in on move in day and then we would invite their parents because we wanted their parents to say, like, You can't say you're going to be accountable to somebody's child. People want to look you in the eye because then they say, You told me he was going to be accountable for my child. You know? So, and it helped make some of the conversations easier to say, like, they will want to know What's they grades? And we'd be like, FERPA is a thing, we can't just bust out and tell you the grades, you know. The students have rights. I know they're eighteen, and they're your babies, but you know, so yeah. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:25.000 Oh, my goodness. That takes me back to when I first got on campus. So, what do you think that the student and staff and faculty involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed from the Black Student Center? 00:18:25.000 --> 00:21:00.000 I think they needed a place to see one another. That because the Black population is small, I think we're under, still under four percent, that they didn't see each other--and I can tell you this--they didn't see each other until it was time for the graduation and recognition ceremony. So, so many times prior to having a space where they gather, they do this part, where they call open mic. So many of them would look back to their student peers and say, I did not know that there were so many of us here. If I knew that, I would have, maybe my experience could have been different. So, I think just having a space where they know that they knew that they were there and present, because presence and representation means something. To be in a place, where you can have honest conversation about your experiences because I don't know where else and who else could identify with their experiences except for them, and faculty and staff--they're still professionals, right--faculty and staff are older. So, even though they're having a very similar, or they were having very similar experiences, students needed peers to kind of like, just talk to and talk through, right. And even if they were having classes or being able to share and say, You know, I took this professor, this professor is good. You'll definitely pass and do well. They needed that system. I'm going to say they needed their own railroad because they were trying to figure it out in this way, being sparse and in between and trying to find each other. And the Center became this place where they gathered. I will say the Black Student Union at that time was like, was a big facilitator, as well. I don't want to leave them out. That was, I almost felt like the numbers for their participation was large prior to the Center, just because it was the only space for students to be together and to gather. But if you were a student that was at like Extended Learning (Building) and you weren’t on main campus and you couldn't make the meetings, right, because of the schedule, then it was harder. But now I think the Center being open and being a present and stable place, and a sustained place, now they just know where to go. Am I answering your question? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.000 Yes! 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.000 Okay. I'm like, I'm just on memory lane. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:11.000 We want--I want that. We want that. [laughter] So, were you able to attend the Black Student Center’s grand opening? 00:21:11.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yes. I wasn't going to miss that! I attended, I was there with the young women I remember, like Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffany (Boyd), the twins Darniesha and Dani (Thornton), Akilah (Green), such beautiful women. And those women, they really led, those young women really led the conversation for the space to be created. And I also want to note this piece because I don't know if people know this piece that when the Latin center, Latin (Latinx) Center was being built, a lot of Black students supported that space for the Latin(x) Center to be built because they felt like they understood, and then when Black students needed the space, a lot of the Latinx students also supported. I was at the meeting, the open forum where some of the students came in and they had the sign, and they stood, and other students, I remember some of the Latinx leaders at that time, they stood right along with them because they remember when those students stood up with them when they needed a space. So, I would even say that those two spaces really came about because of students' voices, because students wanted a space and because those different populations were advocating for one another, which is super important, you know, when we think about what's happening in terms of you mentioned Black Lives. It's important to see when you see all over the internet and all over the world that you see different organizations, you see Asian Americans standing for Black Lives. You see all the different diverse groups standing for Black Lives. That means something, especially with the experiences of Black Lives and what that means. It's a very unique experience. And other experiences have their experiences and unique--I wouldn't take away from them--but to even focus on Black, what it means for a Black life right, in academia. I think – what I know is yes, Black lives matter. So Black scholarship matters, Black mind--as Dr. Luke Wood would say in his whole movement--it matters, you know. Black grades matter. Black, you know, leaders matter, right? And then higher education is where they're being shaped. So, to go back to those young students, the women and the newer young men that came on working together to make sure that it was a space, it was a very, it was a very beautiful thing, watching as a professional staff member on the outside, because you see your students, you see them evolve, you see them trying to navigate and understand and understand what the policies are and create a space, and those particular students, they weren't trying to like be disruptive or, if, you know, they were definitely advocating to just be students who were heard and welcomed and having better experiences, and they weren't doing it in a way that was like--even when it got to the protest or protesting at the forum--it wasn't like they were making a bunch of like super, like loud noise. They kind of stood up with a sign. They asked the President of that time (President Karen Haynes), ‘cause it wasn't our current President, for the space. You know, and I always see, when I see those young men and women even now, and they always were just, they were organized and advocates and activated. But when I even think about what they're doing now, they're all in like grad school or in wonderful, wonderful jobs or even coming back to our campus talking about free speech. And so, to me, that's why it's even that much more important for our campus community to keep cultivating those students because they come back and they enrich the campus community. 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:48.000 Exactly. So, to go back, did you see any external or internal pushback on the creation of the Black Student Center? Or did you directly witness any pushback on the creation on social media or anything like that? 00:25:48.000 --> 00:30:06.000 I did not see it for myself. Right. But I just remember the conversations, folks were saying things like--ooh, actually, I'll take it back. I do remember, I forgot all about this. We brought in Daryl Smith to campus to speak about diversity issues. And I remember a small group of white students standing up during her talk. And Daryl identifies as white and does diversity work and is known in the diversity field and really pushed back on the students. So, they were asking for a white space, and they were saying that if we're basically going to make a space for everybody, like we want a space as well. And I remember her saying something like, you have, thinking like that if you want a space for only whiteness in that way that you're saying, because they were saying it in a very harmful way, is how she was and how she took it. And she said, Yes, you have a space for your ideas. Go and join the Ku Klux Klan, where you belong. Right. Like that was like, that was controversial. But just trying to point out the supremacy in that thinking and culture, the way that it was approaching and not really understanding the conversations. And so, there was a lot of conversations about what it meant to have a space. One of the things that I do in our office, we have Conversations That Matter. And so, one of the things that's involved or that's a part of the Conversations That Matter series is you have to have a call to action. And I remember we had one that talked about Black studies matter, because we needed to educate folks on, well the students and the faculty wanted to come, and they want it to educate folks on what it meant to have Black studies in Black spaces. So, it was a campus conversation on that to try to negate, I guess, pushback or to answer questions. Right, and that was great. ‘Cause it had founding faculty from San Diego (State), founding faculty from the African, Africana Studies program, I think from SDSU, it had, I would have to go back. Dr. Sharon Elise had led that conversation. Dr. Melina (Abdullah) from Long Beach, who heads the Black Lives Matter LA version, I think, was on that conversation. I'm getting people's titles all wrong. But the point is, Black faculty from the CSU came to support CSU San Marcos on that conversation because it was a larger conversation, I think, having--happening in the system around spaces for Black students. And, you know, at that time Black Lives Matter, this is Black Lives Matter. People were not acceptable of Black Lives Matter. Like now you see people like donating bunches of, a bunch of money or protesting together and saying, “Black Lives Matter,” no matter how diverse they are to my point earlier, but that wasn't the conversation nationally. It was very much like when you say Black Lives Matter, what about blue lives? What about white lives? So, that is the tension, the social tension that was happening, even in the midst of like, they were coming off of that, even in the midst of this space of higher education, you know. And centers in itself, cultural centers, have been a longer conversation historically, I think, Gloria, Gloria Ladson-Billings, around her publishings on cultural centers. So yeah, it, there was. So yeah, to answer your question, I guess, to go back, there was some pushback for sure. Yes. And resistance coming from--yeah, there was. Sorry I had to reflect a little bit more. 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:19.000 Oh no, please, please reflect ‘cause that's, that's really interesting, actually. So, what did the university admissions communicate was their vision when it comes to the Black Student Center, as well? 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.000 Wait, say that again? 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:31.000 What was the vision for the university administration communicating with their vision? 00:30:31.000 --> 00:34:19.000 If I remember correctly, I just remember the students had requested the space, and I think they were Dr. (Lorena) Checka and the President because she (Dr. Checka) oversees Student Affairs, was responsible for working with the students to kind of like look for a space, think about the budget, think about those things. So, I felt like the students were charged with making it happen, with the support of, maybe Dr. Checka trying to like help them make it happen, if that makes sense. But to be honest, I feel like, yeah, it was kinda’ like we asked for the space, the students, this is what the students had told me: We asked for the space and now they're making us do all of the work that administration would normally do to create the space. I think that could have probably been a little bit clearer for students because it made them feel like they're like, Well here, if you want the space, you figure it out, right. Where I think the, they were trying to do--and this is where I don't know for sure--but I think they were trying to be in partnership with the students so that the students also understood this is what it takes to create a space, this is what a budget of a space looks like, making them do the research which is okay. I feel like students need that scholarly, like this is how you research. So, if you get in a nonprofit or you request money or request a space, you need to know this information. But I think originally like just how it came across was interesting. And then even, you know, at the time, I felt like it wasn't, there because there wasn't specific ownership of the space--and maybe you’ll interview Tiffaney Boyd and she’ll have a, as a student, a better, she’ll have more to say about this. But, I remember, so, when Tiffaney was President (of Associated Students, Incorporated, ASI) and Jamaéla (Johnson) was one of the execs, and there was another young woman. I’m forgetting her name. They were, I think, the first women of color to be ASI leadership and executives, at that time, during their leadership time. And they themselves, as women of color, specifically Black women on this campus, was having some challenges just being the leaders of the student body. And, you know, some of the things that were just coming towards them was very, very interesting, like I was surprised, you know. I’m very proud of them because some folks did not make it easy for them. And they had some moments, you know. So, they had to be tough and strong, and they’re students, you know, they’re students trying to be students. But also trying to do this very important political and social thing for students futuristically, you know. And I don’t think that part of the story gets told. That those women of color, when they were leaders, they had some opposition for sure. And I think about that because, you know, whatever we could do to assist, where we could assist, you know. But, you know, I look at them, and they were strong. Whether they wanted to be or not, they had to be. And they had to figure it out. What was your question? I feel like I digressed. 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:28.000 Oh no, you, you answered it perfectly. (laughter) So, what was it like when you first visited the Center for the first time? 00:34:28.000 --> 00:38:28.000 So, when they had a celebration, in the spirit of it all was like a super proud day. There was a ribbon cutting, there was like smiles everywhere. People had on, I felt like everybody had on the dashiki or dashiki dress or like something to be connected to their African-ness and faculty and staff--not everybody--but faculty and staff, they showed up, supporters of the space showed up. And so, being in that space in the very beginning and what it meant because the people who've been here for a while historically understood what it meant to gain such a place for Black students, when Black student retention and equity gaps and all of those things have been a conversation for so long. And to have this, yes it was one center, but to have it, really felt like okay, now we're going to be able to expand the Black population and do all of these things. So, the spirit of that day, the spirit of that first, you know, year on the outside was interesting. I think that the people who worked in the inside, the students and the staff probably had some interesting experiences ‘cause I think that people felt challenged. One thing about when people focus on things that are Black, it sometimes feels like everybody has input on why it can't be focused on just Blackness, which is interesting. Anytime that Blackness is centered, and we see that right, with Black Lives Matter, right? We can't even say Black lives matter without something, without somebody saying, What about blue lives? What about white lives? And people constantly saying, We never said that those things were not important! We’re saying that you never deemed Black life important since day zero. And we are making--like the young folks are making sure that we matter and that we count and to see that is important. And so, when the space to say like, Yes, all students matter! But we are making sure that we say we recognize and understand the experience, the negative experiences that Black students have been having, and we're trying to improve those, is important, right? That’s why I mentioned, wanted to mention the piece around the Latinx students who support it because I think they understood because they also had some similar things happening in a different kind of way, but just understood when people say we are focusing on this population, and there is nothing wrong to focus on this population. So, I think that the folks who worked there when people would come in and they didn't understand what the space is for, and were like Why? Or if they saw social media saying, here we go again with, you know, whatever people were saying. I think it was a challenge to, for them. And I think it was difficult for them. And you know, they did what they do and as Black folks, they held their head high and shoulders back. But that doesn't mean that those Black students who are just looking for a space, didn't feel again, like, Why is this happening? Why are people making us feel like we don't belong? Why are when I talk about Black people, you're saying et cetera and making me talk about something else, you know? But I think that's important. And also just like and other people that support it. I feel like even the director, Floyd Lai, from the Cross-Cultural Center always has been supportive of the other spaces. Just that understanding and those things are important as well. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Yeah. Those are very important to know. So, continue, can you tell me a little bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center, the programming events and focuses? 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:08.000 Yeah, I mean, I remember--I should say this too, Ayana--I remember I was excited for the Black Student Center. I had applied to be the director of the Black Student Center at one time. I was excited, like this is the place, you know? And so, the vision around it being a place really, even though being in Student Affairs, being connected to Academic Affairs, really developing Black scholars and scholarship, having that historical understanding for folks and that education. Before it was formed, I know that like it was, people have the vision, honestly, that it was going to be the end all be all of everything, which is problematic because one space can't answer all things for Black students. And having people realize that, you know, the diaspora is not a monolith, right. And the students are not monolithic in their thinking and their approaches. So, I think even now, you know, that's a challenge, understanding how the richness and diversity among Black people and Black students. So having it be this end all be all is interesting, was interesting. So that's ‘kinda what I remember about it. My little piece. Yeah. 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:23.000 Mmm. So, expand upon that a little bit more about that. So, on that early, you didn't, any initiatives or programming specifically that you like knowingly like saw push, like right after the Black Student Center? 00:40:23.000 --> 00:42:40.000 I don't know if it was right after, but I know that they started to have Black step shows. They started to have Black Wall Street. They had the Black Panthers. They had one of my favorite events, they had something called Hidden Figures, and they were recognizing, they had it on so-called Valentine’s Day in February, which was also during a Black Excellence Month and they would recognize Black faculty and staff members on campus and their, the work that they did in a hidden way, and I was one of them. But one of the Black women, she doesn't work here anymore-- many of the Black women that were here don't work here anymore. It was just one of those events, it was one of my favorites because it was like, a we see you from the students, right. It was the student stance of Black faculty and staff, like we see you, we know what you do. They may not know, or other people may not know, but we know what you do for us, and we appreciate you for it. And it just, it was a really good event. So, there were a lot of great events when it first started, yeah, like four or five. But there they were having--oh, they would have Black Unity Hour, Unity Hour, I think they still have that. And they would try to do a lot of coordinator with the Black Faculty Staff Association. So, trying to welcome the Black Faculty Staff Association. They have this thing--I forget what it was called--but the Black Faculty and Staff Association, one person a week could come in and lead a conversation with the students on whatever topic that they were interested in. And, you know, so that was nice. I remember I did a topic in there with them, with another colleague, and we focused on white supremacy, white groups, and kind of like, what does that mean for Black lives and Black students, something like that, you know? So, they were doing a lot of programming, and they had a lot of interests. 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:48.000 So what are some wrinkles that do you think were worked out in the early days of the Center? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.000 That I can talk about? (laughter) 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.000 Yeah. That you can, yeah. (laughter) 00:42:54.000 --> 00:45:20.000 Yeah. I think understanding the mission and the goal of the Center, like I think they might even be working on that, like understanding that, like we know it’s a Center and we know it’s the space for Black students. But having a unified goal from the very beginning, not sure if they had that from the very beginning. Who could be in this space? It was always like a conversation. Who could be in the space? And I was like, Well, the space is open to all, right, ‘cause we're an inclusive environment, but let us not forget the space is gonna’ focus on Black scholarship, like what it means to be Black and those different things. And so, they had to always debunk myths. I feel like in the beginning, people would, they had to debunk myths, because people were like, Well, can I be in here? And they're like, It's a space like any other space on campus. Do you ask the other spaces if you can be there? Like they had to do a lot of like that teaching folks, they probably still have to do that. And I'm saying, I don't know for sure ‘cause we're in a pandemic, but you know, but they're still having virtual events. But that was like one of the things like people were out constantly asking people who maybe who didn't understand if they could be in the space and they would always be like, Yeah, you could be in the space, but just know in the space, this is the focus. And if you support the mission and the focus of the space, then there's no problem. And I do think, I do feel like the students were challenged a lot in the space. And I also think there was some internal things happening in this space. Yeah, just trying to work out the identity. I think the identity of the space being worked out and what it meant, you know, and because it didn’t come with a very strong mission or had a strong mission, people made the mission, or the identity of the space based on who they were and what they wanted to see out of the space. So that, I think sometimes that leads to conflict. In terms of just like everybody had their idea of going back to, even, you know, faculty and staff. Everybody had wanted the space to be everything for everybody and then realizing real quick that that cannot be the case. 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:27.000 So, what would you say is the purpose of the, of the Center specifically? 00:45:27.000 --> 00:48:05.000 Yeah, I would say the purpose of the space is Black scholarship for students is the first and foremost important part of the space. The space is in a place for higher education, and so the goal is to make sure that in whatever way the Center can help facilitate Black student success. So, Black student success and Black scholarship is what I would say is the most important facilitation of the space, right? Like how has that space facilitating Black students to graduate on time, to make sure that Black students know how to write, to make sure that, right, like we have the Writing Center and we have those other spaces, but if Black students are not going to those spaces for whatever reason, that they're also giving, getting that in some, to some degree, in the space. So, I think that’s one of the--this is my opinion--but yeah, one of the most important things that like Black, that Black student success is happening. And so, how they go about Black student success? I think the space gets to determine, right. But just like some of the things that I named, but also a place on a list to, if I had a list of what it's for, students to gather and be, and be in community. There's a long history, I think I even started with my beginning of like the importance of community to Black folks in the Americas. I would say globally, but I'm a scholar in the US mostly, I shouldn't say that. I have a Latin American studies minor. But and that was still like examining Blackness, you know? But yeah, Black student success overall. I know that's super general, but whatever it means for Black students. So, like if a Black student trying to graduate from Cal State, making sure I graduate, like, and I want to graduate, go to graduate school, what things can the space provide in conjunction with the services we have on campus? So maybe, you know, the Black Student Center is a facilitator, making sure that the students know what resources are available throughout the campus. So, a hub of facilitating that student success. 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:11.000 So, do you think this purpose is being accomplished, the multiple lines that you mentioned, currently? 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.000 Do I think the purpose is being accomplished right now? 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.000 Mmm-hmm. 00:48:16.000 --> 00:49:04.000 Yeah. I think that with their new student director, John Rawlins (III), I think that, well that we’re in a pandemic, but even in that, I think that John is trying to create some sustainable foundation for the space that wasn't there. So, I would say with the new director and with the new AVP Dr. (Gail) Cole-Avent (Associate Vice-President, Student Life), who also oversees all of the centers, they're definitely in tandem, working that that space is a place for student success, Black student success. Yes. I think they're on the journey. I don't know if they've arrived because the space is how old now, like three years? 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:07.000 Three years, it'll be five coming up, about four years. 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:42.000 Four years, and it’ll be five. Okay. So, and I think John has only been here one, maybe two, years, and Dr. Cole-Avent maybe one, maybe two years. So, you know, the space has gone through some, I want to say identity crisis, but I'm going to call it that for the lack of a better term. And they're trying to shape that and build that foundation and repair some things, repair some things. So, to your question, yes. I think that they are on the road to recovery and the road to making sure that the foundation for Black students for that space is student success. 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:52.000 Ok. All right. So how has the Black Student Center affected you personally? 00:49:52.000 --> 00:50:54.000 I love the space. Sometimes just when I walk the campus, I'll go visit all the spaces. But I love that when I come in the space, I feel welcomed by students. I'm happy to see them and they seem happy to see me. Unless they think I'm going to have them, assign them some things. (laughter) Or ask them some questions about classes, if they've gone or not. But the presence of the space has been great to like some of the events that have, I don't know of the capacity if you, of those events could have been had on campus without the space and the collaboration of the space. But just going in there and just seeing like, what's going on, what are y'all up to? What are y'all working on? Sometimes, especially in, you know, thinking about some of the conversations that they were having or some of the programs just to walk by or to stop in for a moment just to see what's going on. So good on campus. 00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:00.000 So, with all that's going on, what do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 I really expect that the Black student success initiative that's going to come down, I really hope that it can help grow our Black student population and have that space be a hub. And I say that, I'm trying to be gentle in saying that because John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is one person, right, and so doing, you know, the best that he can as one person. But what I would like to see next is those student initiatives out of the space, really concrete, and really growing and seeing scholarship, the scholarship that the students produce, the presentation opportunities, seeing, you know, the way that faculty continue to collaborate with the students and produce scholarship. That's what I think some of the next steps are. 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:10.000 Okay, so you had mentioned previously, but can you talk a little bit about your role on, on the, on campus currently? 00:52:10.000 --> 00:56:09.000 Yeah. I'm the Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives (in the Office of Inclusive Excellence). My role is to make sure, help make sure that the campus is inclusive and welcoming, to help make sure that the CDO (Chief Diversity Officer) and I, that we advise our presidential administration team on the best decisions for the campus to strategically be doing the work of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. And so, I know that's super broad, but it’s broad because, Ayana, it entails a lot. It looks different in different ways, right? It can look like a summit on what we're doing for specific populations. It can look like anti-racist work and implicit bias training. It can look like, what are we doing for students for putting together diversity work and sustainability work, and how is that helping student success? It can look like what are we doing with our social justice grants and how are people doing the work of diversity across campus? It has many forms. I do many things. It can look like, how do we decolonize a syllabus and work with the Faculty Center on a program, such as that and making sure that our faculty and staff also feel welcomed and included on campus doing this work. And that students, no matter where they go on campus, that we have some inclusive curriculum. It can look like there there's a new Ethnic Studies program coming, possibly, not program, I'm sorry bill or conversation, right. Like the work of the Office of Inclusive Excellence is very expansive across the campus because the goal was to make sure that inclusion is in everything that we do, whether in hiring, whether in our search process and our retention of our faculty, staff, and students, and our, again, in our curriculum, and the daily operations of like vendors and policies and how they're applied. So yeah, it's all of that with many forms and my job is to help facilitate it where I can, how I can, really building relationships across the campus and making sure that our Office is you know, also there to advise or to help and guide where folks need the assistance when they're, when they're trying to transform their department from, you know, a more inclusive space or department and they don't know what that looks like. So, it's a lot. I enjoy it. I enjoy working with our current, interim CDO (Dr. Ranjeeta Basu). We're in the midst of hiring a new chief--and I say CDO--that's the Chief Diversity Officer. And so, just trying to figure out where do we go from here? And I know where we go, we need to expand the capacity of our office so that we could continue to do this work all over, consistently. But what's nice is that the new President, President [Ellen] Neufeldt, has said this work belongs to the campus, and it is not just relegated to one office and that we all do this work of inclusion together. So, that's been a great relief, and you know, I applaud the new President for that. 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Okay. So, those are all my questions. Do you have anything you wanted to add or anything you would want to say? 00:56:16.000 --> 00:57:05.000 Yeah, I think this is a great project. I think that it's going to be important. I'm all into the institutional memory that we need to carry forward, especially with the conversations we're having now about like naming of buildings and why do we have those names or why do we have this space or what was the purpose. So, I'm very excited about the project and I love that the University Library was happy to partner with students, graduate students, with the (Black Student) Center, a lot of students, yourself and other students, who are doing the interviews, it becomes this whole research ecosystem, and I'm all happy for that. So good job. 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:10.000 Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you. This is a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.000 No problem. 00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000 Have a nice day. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en &#13 ; video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 Description An account of the resource Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-02 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence Student success, Black Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ariel Stevenson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Farrell (Penn.) Warren (Ohio) Reading (Penn.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <span><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a><br /></span> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ariel Stevenson Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marion Reid Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerry Macchia OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Macchia, Jerry. Interview, May 13, 1992. SC060-01 00:56:55 SC060 Green Tiger Press collection CSUSM csusm Green Tiger Press Simon and Schuster (Inc.) San Marcos (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Jerry Macchia Marion Reid .wav MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3a1e78779fdcbc6ca72de2300690f56c.wav Other audio English Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986 ; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan ; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model ; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh ; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon &amp ; Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.685 --> 00:00:06.504 Publishing because you've done a lot of other things. Can you tell me how this came about? 00:00:06.504 --> 00:00:37.384 Well, very easily, I think Marion, um, I had been involved in heavy industry for all my life and worked for a large corporation back in the Midwest. And, in 1977, at that time I was a corporate vice president traveling the entire world for Clark Equipment Corporation. 00:00:37.384 --> 00:00:38.000 These are forklifts? 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Forklifts. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 The forklift manufacturer? 00:00:40.000 --> 00:01:40.075 Yes, that's, that's correct. And, the dealership or the franchise, whichever you choose to call it for the forklift division, became available in San Diego. And having worked for a large corporation for twenty-some years, you kind of become immune to a lot of things, and I was at that stage where I was ready to blossom into something, do something I--because I was at the stage in my life where I felt I could go to a management meeting and stand in the corner on my head for two hours and nobody would know if I was there or not. So the dealership became available and I've always had somewhat of an entrepreneurial feeling. And I thought, well, this is an opportunity for me to do what I really wanted to do. So I went over and talked to the vice president of marketing, who was a good friend of mine, and he said, "If you want it, it's yours." I was on an airplane in a week and I bought the franchise in San Diego. 00:01:40.075 --> 00:01:41.495 So you came here from Michigan? 00:01:41.495 --> 00:02:36.224 I came here from Michigan, uh, took over the franchise in 1977 with a forklift division. Unfortunately six months after that, I was stricken with a spinal cord disease that was certainly unknown to me and unknown to anyone else. It was just something that just came out of the blue and apparently was there from birth and something triggered it. I woke up paralyzed one day, and I'd had this company for six months. And anyway, to make a long story short, because I don't wanna bore you with all that, I kept that company for four or five years and then the doctors decided it was best for me to retire and try to get my body back together because they said, "You're never gonna walk again," and all these kind of crazy things. 00:02:36.224 --> 00:03:48.675 So I sold the company. And I retired for two years and became bored to death, and planted tomatoes and rose bushes and, you know, swam every day and just tried to keep myself physically able to move and decided it was time to go back to work. And having been on both sides of the fence, having worked for someone and then having worked for myself, I decided the only thing for me was to work for myself, which meant I had to find a company. And I went to a cocktail party one Sunday afternoon, ran into a banker friend, and he said, I do happen to know of a company that's for sale. And unbeknownst to me, it wasn't for sale, it was about to go down the tube &lt ; laugh&gt ; , but I found that out very soon. But anyway, that's how I bought the Green Tiger. It, uh, it was told to me by a friend. I went there the next week. I had several meetings with the former owners and we came up with an arrangement that was compatible to both of us. And that's how I acquired the Green Tiger Press. 00:03:48.675 --> 00:03:55.014 So you and your family worked with this new business. How did you learn publishing? 00:03:55.014 --> 00:04:59.475 I never did learn it, and I'm not sure I know it today, to be honest about it. Uh, perhaps I'm a little unique in my thoughts about business. Most people feel that when you're in business, you're in a specialty, whatever that business is. If you're selling yogurt, you gotta be a specialty in yogurt. If you're selling, you know, JCPenney shoes, you gotta be a specialty in shoes or whatever. I don't happen to feel that way. I feel that the basics of business are the basics of business and they apply to all businesses. And therefore, I feel that you can run a forklift dealership or you can run a publishing company if you know the basics of running a business. And that's my philosophy, and that's what I did. I said, "I don't need to know the publishing business. I need to have people that know the publishing business." I need to know how to run the business. They need to know how to publish something and make it sell. And so that's the philosophy that I carried into the publishing company. 00:04:59.475 --> 00:05:10.005 Well, this seems to have worked well because between 1986 and 1990, you very much turned the company around. 00:05:10.005 --> 00:05:10.016 Yeah. 00:05:10.016 --> 00:05:16.485 And, and I don't know more than doubled the profits or the earnings. 00:05:16.485 --> 00:05:25.785 We did that. We did both. We doubled the sales and we doubled the earnings. We took the company out completely out of debt. And so it did work well. Very well-- 00:05:25.785 --> 00:05:32.932 But what kinds of things did you do that caused it to change it--well, first of all, did you keep the same people? 00:05:32.932 --> 00:08:14.000 There were a lot of--there were a lot of pluses at the Green Tiger when I bought it that I will not take credit for. That were there. But they were laying dormant. They were just laying there and nobody was doing anything with them. For example, the product line was wonderful. The name had already been established, which was also wonderful because the name was, was well known all over the world and a good name. It had carved a certain niche in the marketplace that was there, and they had good people, but they were not utilizing them. So all I really did was took advantage of what was--what was there. I did not create anything. I didn't do anything. I just said to myself, it's all right there. So all you've gotta do is use it. And, the other thing that was very important, and probably attributes a great deal to the sales activity, to the marketing, to the increase in sales was in the publishing business, at least in that one--and in most--you use independent sales reps. You, never have your own sales force unless you're a huge, huge corporation like Simon Houston. Most small publishing houses do it through independent representatives. And that's what we did. The Green Tiger had maybe sixty or sixty-five (sales reps) at the time that I acquired the company. The problem was that the sales reps were not really sales reps because they were not representing the line. 'cause they were not being paid commissions. When they did sell something, they never got paid for it. So as a result, they were a sales rep in name only. So one of the very first things I recognized, because if I have a somewhat of a marketing background, I recognize the first thing you gotta do is get somebody out to sell your product. It can be the best product in the world, but if you have no one to sell it, it's not gonna go any place. So we had a--we called all the sales reps to San Diego. We had a special sales meeting, and as they came in, we presented them with a back commission check. So they were all paid right up to that moment. They were paid for all the products that they had sold that they never got paid for. That tended, of course, to-- 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.845 Get their attention-- 00:08:15.845 --> 00:10:01.000 --boost their confidence in the future. We showed them what our plans were for the future. We showed them some new products that we had developed that they became very excited about. And as a result of that, we got, uh, I guess what you could say, as much attention as you can get from an independent rep, because they usually represent 30 or 35 companies. So we got their attention, I think, that way. And then what we did is, we decided that we really needed to double the sales force. So we ended up with a 160 sales reps rather than--well, we did better than double because we only had sixty-some--we ended up, when I sold the company to Simon & Schuster, we had over 160 and we went international, in addition to that. We went into England, we went into Australia, we went into Japan. We were about to go into Mexico, but we didn't. But we would have if we hadn't sold. So we did go international to some degree, and we would've gone further inter international because there was there was a lot of opportunity there. So that pretty much tells the story of doubling the, you know, the sales volume. We took advantage of the expertise that was there of some of the people, the editorial people, the--some of the marketing people were very good. We had telemarketing people that were good, but they were not being utilized. 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:22.294 And we literally, from that point, cleaned house. And then we got rid of all the people, all the things that we didn't need, and that were really just kind of consuming, if that's a good word, they were consuming a lot of the good things, and they were really draining profits, draining resources with no results. 00:10:22.294 --> 00:10:25.575 Would doing the actual printing be one of those? 00:10:25.575 --> 00:10:46.995 Well, doing printing was certainly one of 'em and that's one of the very first things I got rid of. Was we got rid of the printing press, we got rid of the printers. We jobbed all of that out. We became, in the true essence, we became a publisher rather than a printing house. Which made a tremendous, tremendous difference in overhead. 00:10:46.995 --> 00:10:53.000 I read in one of the articles that you had people vote on--in order to select the manuscript. 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:54.000 Yes. 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:55.664 Who voted? 00:10:55.664 --> 00:14:30.000 Well, that's a very unique situation also. And we were not the typical public publishing house because most publishers have an editorial staff and they have editors just like a newspaper. We did not, we had an editorial committee which was made up of employees. And that committee rotated, and we would've committees, we would've people serving on that committee's from accounting, for example. We would have people on that committee that could have been from the warehouse, that could have worked in the, let's say in the customer service group, could have worked in marketing, could have worked almost any place in the business. And we would put them on the editorial staff. And that was made up of as many as seven or eight people at a time. And I chairmanned that particular committee, myself, and my wife sat on that committee. Uh, my son sat on it, and we used to receive--and this, uh, this is somewhat of an astounding number, and I still have trouble with it--but we used to get in the mail unsolicited over two thousand manuscripts a year. Now that's a l--that, you know, that would fill this room very easily. From floor to ceiling, and from wall to wall. And we of course could not read all of them. And we would read--we would scan/read as much as we possibly could. And the ones that we knew were not Green Tiger at all, because we had a certain image, we ha a certain niche, we knew what we were looking for all the time. And so probably 90% of them either went back to the person that submitted it or they just got thrown away. Uh, if someone sends something to you and requested to come back and they send you the postage, then you're obligated to send it back to them. If they just send it to you and say, please read my manuscript. if you're interested, let me know. Those we would just throw away. So what we would do is, as we had time, as people had time, as the employees had time that were on this committee, they would take manuscripts and they would read and they would just do that &lt ; inaudible&gt ; . They would throw 'em this way or throw 'em this way or throw 'em away or send them back. Or they would put 'em in a save pile. The save pile was then, you know, given to others on the committee. "I think this has got merit. Read it." So every night people would go home with stacks of manuscripts, and then we would have editorial meetings, and each person would say, "I think this has merit." And we'd end up with certain group, then we would all take those and read them, and then we would narrow those down. Then we'd get down to maybe fifteen or twenty, because we couldn't afford to publish any more than that in a year because publishing a book is very expensive. So we would then get down to a point where we would actually have to vote. And we did a secret ballot vote so that no one would influence the other party. And then after the vote was taken, we would publish it (the vote) and say, "Okay, we've got seven that wants this book. We've got three that says no, we got two that says yes, we got one that says doesn't care." You know? 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.225 Yeah. 00:14:31.225 --> 00:15:03.695 Those kind of things. Then we would get into a discussion stage about a particular book, and some would get scrapped and some would get maybe boosted up. And that's the way we selected what we were gonna print. And if it got to where it had to be a tiebreaker, I would usually be the tiebreaker. And we got to where we would publish twenty books a year in that fashion. And we did the same with note cards and calendars. 00:15:03.695 --> 00:15:11.825 So the manus--did the manuscripts include the calendars and the note cards or that was additional? Did you get the same kind of over the transom-- 00:15:11.825 --> 00:16:44.924 Well, we did get quite a few note card-things over the transom. We didn't get too many calendars. We pretty much did that ourselves. We knew what we wanted to do. Uh, note cards, we used to get a tremendous amount of the actual images. We didn't get the verses. We'd get the images, "can you use these images in your note card line?" We'd get a lot of that. And we used them. We used quite a few, but we, we did something that probably no other publisher's ever done and probably never will do. We figured that we could get, you know, more bang for the buck, so to speak, if you take images from the books that you've already published, and if the book is successful, you can use that same film and you can use the same image and it's all you have to do is put a verse with it and you've got an note card. So we--We just kind of thought we were a little smarter, I guess. Maybe we weren't, but we thought we were smart to do that because it saved us, and we--not only did it save us, but we were able to keep our card line fresh in that manner because we already had the images and then it's all we had to do was for someone sit down and very cleverly write a little verse to go with that. Or as you probably know, we published a lot of cards that were blank. And people could write their own image. They were all message, I should say. 00:16:44.924 --> 00:16:53.075 What can you tell me about the original publishers, the original owners of Green Tiger? I assume you, you met with them. 00:16:53.075 --> 00:16:54.830 Oh yeah. 00:16:54.830 --> 00:16:56.585 And there were three. 00:16:56.585 --> 00:17:04.733 There were three. What's that? &lt ; inaudible&gt ; then there were three, then there were two &lt ; laugh&gt ; . Anyway, there were three. Uh-- 00:17:04.733 --> 00:17:06.394 And Harold and Sandra Darling-- 00:17:06.394 --> 00:17:55.018 Harold and Sandra Darling were the, were the driving force of the editorial and the creative. And she still is in the publishing field and she's very successful. And so is he. And they now have a company called the Blue Lantern Studio. It's in San Diego. She is the author and the artist of the Carl series, the "Good Dog, Carl" series. I don't know if you know that book. Well, they did a whole series of Carl books now, She's done three or four of that book. We did the first one. And-- 00:17:55.018 --> 00:17:57.194 That's where I know it &lt ; inaudible&gt ; on the lift. 00:17:57.194 --> 00:18:38.434 Yeah. The Good Dog, Carl. And that's become very successful. And her whole series of that has become very successful. So, and now they have--they started this Blue Lantern Studio to assist other publishers as consultants and that kind of thing. They branched from that into, back in publishing and their now publishing their own books again. And I--and they are selling books to people like Farrar Strauss and people like Simon & Schuster. And so they're back on the road for recovery again. 00:18:38.434 --> 00:18:40.275 Well, Harold Lee. 00:18:40.275 --> 00:18:40.625 Harold Lee. 00:18:40.625 --> 00:18:42.983 What kind of function did he have? 00:18:42.983 --> 00:18:46.000 Well, Harold Lee, Harold Lee's function basically was the financial-- 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:47.694 Money. 00:18:47.694 --> 00:19:11.994 He was the money guy. He's the guy that had the money. Uh, he believed very strongly in their talent, which he certainly was correct. He believed in the ability to sell the product. So he did fund it, and he funded it to the tune of like 80 or 85% as I remember the numbers. 00:19:11.994 --> 00:19:17.545 Okay, so back in 1970, he contributed that. And had they had a bookstore, or? 00:19:17.545 --> 00:19:44.454 There's--there's somewhat of a, of a blank in my mind about that, Marion. They had, they started, as I understand it, with a card line. No, that's not correct. They started, I believe, with what was called the Unicorn Theater. 00:19:44.454 --> 00:19:46.275 Okay. 00:19:46.275 --> 00:22:48.674 Which was a small little theater in La Jolla that they rented, and they served European foreign teas, cookies and things of that nature. And they showed European films, and they gathered quite a following. And this was back in the, like you say in the seventies. They gathered quite a following. And, I understand it was--I've never been there and didn't know anything about it, of course. And never seen it. But I understand it was quite unique. And what they did was very unique. And they'd had people coming there every night to watch these foreign films, and they would drink foreign coffees and foreign teas and that kind of thing. And they branched out from that, I believe, to the card company. And then they branched into a company, I believe it was called the Mithras, I think it was the Mithras Book company or something like that, up in, I think it was up in the Hillcrest area. And they started being a book publisher. And so they started publishing books and only a couple. And they started, as you know, with the old and antiquarian-style books. And they used, for the most part, they used public domain material. But they did gather a few artists and authors that were more current that they needed to pay royalties to. And they started publishing in that manner, and they did quite well. And, I don't really know what happened to them financially. I really can't respond to that too well, except that in 1986, they were pretty well down and out and ready to close the doors. And that's when I was told about this company. And that's when I contacted the Darlings and with Mr. Lee and I had meetings with them. They had a consultant at that time running their company. They were not running it. They were, they were doing their little creative thing. Unfortunately, Harold Lee and the Darlings physically, verbally parted ways. They became, what you might even say bitter enemies. And he went his way and picked up his toys and went home. And they stayed and tried to run the business, and he just withdrew himself from it entirely. And he did not, of course, would not fund any more money to it. Uh, as a result, it just went downhill, downhill, downhill. They didn't pay commissions, they didn't pay salesmen. They, as I understand, some of the staff, they did not make payroll. Some of the people left, some of that were very loyal, stayed. And that's kind of when I entered the picture. 00:22:48.674 --> 00:22:50.479 Oh, I'll turn the tape over. Oh, this is fine. 00:22:50.479 --> 00:22:57.993 But I don't mean to ramble, but some of these things come into my head. I'm sure you're not gonna use all this material, but-- 00:22:57.993 --> 00:23:01.214 Oh, we'll use what you choose &lt ; laugh&gt ; 00:23:01.214 --> 00:23:05.785 And what you choose, because I think that it should be a joint effort here to make it what you want. 00:23:05.785 --> 00:23:12.000 With the logo. I read something that indicated that the logo was somehow related possibly to the Detroit Tigers. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.535 Yes. 00:23:13.535 --> 00:23:18.184 The logo being a big Tiger head and then green-- 00:23:18.184 --> 00:23:20.000 Well, that's not the logo, that's the name. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.934 Oh, that's the, okay. 00:23:21.934 --> 00:23:23.625 The name Green Tiger. 00:23:23.625 --> 00:23:24.875 Okay. 00:23:24.875 --> 00:24:38.000 And Marion, I'm not gonna swear that this is true because I don't know and it's always been a mystique because I could never get anybody to tell me the truth. And I shouldn't say the truth. I could never get anybody to really tell me where it really did come from. Because everybody I talked to said, I don't know if this is for sure, but this is what we think. This is what we heard. And the predominant story was, and is to this day, that Harold Darling, who was the founder with his wife Sandra, was and still is a very avid baseball fan. My understanding is that his favorite team at that time was the Detroit Tigers. And I was born and raised in Michigan, which was only a few miles from Detroit. And I was a Detroit Tiger fan. He is a little bit younger than I, but I don't ever remember the Detroit Tigers wearing green and white striped uniforms. But I was told that they did. Now, whether they did or not I can't say, but at any rate, I was told that that's where he came up with the name Green Tiger. 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.424 Okay. Okay. 00:24:39.424 --> 00:24:58.000 And from that point on, it was called the Green Tiger Press. And they developed the logo was developed, I believe, by a man by the name of Richardson. It was called a Richardson Tiger. And it was green and White tiger. And that's where that logo came from. Which you've probably what you've seen on his catalog. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.755 Yeah, on catalogs, okay. 00:24:59.755 --> 00:25:12.535 And so I adopted that as our corporate logo when I acquired the company. And I just said, I think this ought to be the corporate logo. So I copyrighted it and had it as our corporate identity. 00:25:12.535 --> 00:25:22.829 Now, I understand that the Green Tiger Press had not only the printing presses back when the Days had it--the Darlings-- 00:25:22.829 --> 00:25:23.973 Darlings. 00:25:23.973 --> 00:25:31.345 Darlings. But it also had antiques. And did they have a children's book collection as well? 00:25:31.345 --> 00:25:34.674 Yes. They had a very, very large children's book collection. 00:25:34.674 --> 00:25:35.000 What kind of antiques-- 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:36.000 Very old-- 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000 --do they have? 00:25:37.000 --> 00:26:35.000 Well, let's take them one at a time. The book collection, Harold Darling is a collector. By nature, I mean, that's his--that's just him. He's a collector. He collects everything. He has a great, great fondness for children's books. And when this started in his life, I don't know, but he collected children's books for many, many, many, many years, and still does to this day. He probably has the largest, most valuable children's book library in the city of San Diego. Maybe in the entire world for all I know. The last count I knew he had well over 5,000 volumes. And these will run the gamut from, you know, you name it, Wizard of Oz all the way on up to whatever you want to talk about. And, uh, original titles. And he just acquired them from all over the world. 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.021 And he still has them? 00:26:36.021 --> 00:28:03.384 And he still has them. That's correct. He still has them. Now, that was an asset of the Green Tiger. However, the library being really his, he collected it, and part of his contribution to the Green Tiger was to give that to the Green Tiger as, as a monetary contribution. And it was to be used to take material from that library, and they redid many of those old books that were in the public domain. You go back to Little Red Riding Hood, for example, if that's over fifty years old and he had the original, they would redo that book. Or they would take images and make note cards from those old books. Uh, in the negotiations, we structured it so that the library really would go back to him because it really was his, and it was more, let's say, it just meant more to him than it meant to me. I looked at my role in the Green Tiger as a business venture, and although I had a great love for books also, but--and still do--but not like his. And so the really--the library should have gone back to him, and that's where it did go. And he has it today. 00:28:03.384 --> 00:28:05.958 Did the antiques come with the press? 00:28:05.958 --> 00:29:05.714 The antiques were--you're talking about tangible physical furniture type antiques, and there were many of them at the Green Tiger Press, and they all stayed with the Green Tiger press. When I sold the company to Simon & Schuster, many of them went to Simon & Schuster. The ones that they chose that they wanted, the ones they did not want, I retained, and I still have some of them today. We did call the Darlings and tell them what was left there, and if they had any fondness, they wanted something, some sentimental value, to come and take them. And they did. There were a lot of old things that were there and that I felt should have been in their hands rather than in mine. And there were some lots of signs that she had painted and she'd, you know, hand drawn, and there were some old, old cabinets and old antique pieces that they wanted, that they took. 00:29:05.714 --> 00:29:09.484 How did you come to move to San Marcos? To move the company to San Marcos? 00:29:09.484 --> 00:29:16.000 Well, I don't know if you know where we were located or not, or downtown-- 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:17.000 C and India. 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.234 Yeah. Right next to the trolley. 00:29:19.234 --> 00:29:20.000 Next to the trolley. 00:29:20.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Yes. The trolley--well, actually the trolley started on Ketner and C, and India was the next corner. And we were on the corner of C and India. Well then when the renovation of downtown started, they decided to build that huge great American Plaza building on the corner of Ketner and Broadway. As a result of that, the trolley station had to be moved a block eastward, and as a result, trolley station then ended up right opposite our building. Which forced us literally to completely turn around our entire operation. We couldn't use the side doors. We couldn't because the tracks were there and they put, you know, the stations there and everything. So we literally had to do a lot of things. They were chewing up the sidewalks. The big Shapery building went up. Have you been downtown? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.974 Mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . Yes. 00:30:25.974 --> 00:30:41.000 So, you know. The big Shapery building went up. And in the meantime, after I acquired the company, it was owned by an elderly Chinese family. And-- 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.000 The building was? 00:30:43.000 --> 00:32:29.000 The building was. And unbeknownst to me--and this is my own error--and I have no one to blame, but myself, I did not look at the lease thoroughly enough. I read the lease, but I didn't look at the bottom line. And the bottom line, there were no signatures. Meaning that the former owners never signed it. So--and there was a first option to buy the building. Well the option was valid--or it was voided because it was never signed. So I lost the opportunity to buy the building, which I would've done, but I lost that opportunity because it was not signed. And so the YMCA, which was right on the corner of Broadway and India, they, at that time, their mode was to buy that entire block. They wanted the entire block. And their purpose was, was well-founded. They wanted to build a high rise hotel, to take care of servicemen and their families and that kind of thing. So they wanted that, that Green Tiger building very badly. So they ended up buying it from this--from the elderly Chinese man that owned it. And so we entered into a lease with the YMCA. Well then the renovation of downtown started. And all these buildings, these highrise buildings were going up all around us. I mean, literally around us. Front, back at each side. Trolley was here, the big highrise here, big highrise here, another big highrise here, and then this big brand new great American Plaza going right across the street. Trolley going underneath. The sidewalks were being torn up. The jackhammers were going every day. The pile drivers were going every day. It was absolutely, it was terrible. 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.000 Constant hassle. 00:32:31.000 --> 00:34:20.844 Constant. It was awful. We lost all our parking facilities. We lost our water every day. We lost our electricity every day. Our computer went out every day. It was just, it was just godawful. And as a result of that, I just said, I've gotta get us out of here. And living in North County, I naturally wanted to, to move to North County. And maybe that was a selfish motive on my part. Uh, I don't know. But with my handicap, driving to San Diego every day was certainly not easy. And because that was an hour and 15 minutes every day and every night. And that was not an easy thing. And no place to park. I had a handicapped parking place that I negotiated with the city, and then they finally tore it apart by--because they even tore the sidewalk up, you know? So I had no place to park my car. It was awful. Anyway, make a long story short, I found this building and--I looked and looked and looked and looked--and I found this building in San Marcos. That was the building that we're talking about. And, it was just a shell. There was no interior at all. It was just a shell. And the man that had--that developed that whole business park went into bankruptcy. And as a result of that, that building was foreclosed on as well as others in there. And so I negotiated a purchase for that building. And fortunately, like I say, it was not built out inside, so we were able to design it ourselves. So we designed the entire inside of the building ; the upstairs, downstairs. And we bought the building. My wife and I bought it independent of the Green Tiger, and we leased it back to the Green Tiger. 00:34:20.844 --> 00:34:25.000 So what functions did you put on the two different levels? 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:51.934 Okay. The, the upstairs level was all office. Accounting was upstairs, the computer systems were all upstairs. The receivables, you know, all of the accounting functions, the editorial functions were upstairs. The sales functions, marketing functions were upstairs. Customer service was upstairs. The mail room was upstairs. 00:34:51.934 --> 00:34:54.614 So how many people had-- 00:34:54.614 --> 00:35:15.000 We had that pared down when we moved, we had it paired down to thirty-five, I think. In that, from that area, the balance, um, was all warehouse functions done in the warehouse. And, warehouse: we had racking, of course, from floor to ceiling and all our inventory-- 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.000 In the warehouse. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:36:32.065 In the warehouse, Proper. We did all our receiving, did all our shipping, all our warehousing, we did all of our quality control. We did all of our manufacturing. We did some manufacturing of cards. We built--we made all our own cards, except print. We didn't print them, but the hand-tipped cards, I don't know if you recall those or not, where you would just get a blank card that would open up like so, and on the inside would be a hand-glued image. Those were called hand-tipped cards. And we had a group of Thai ladies from Thailand, and we had six or seven of them. And they did all the quality control, and they did all the hand-tipped cards. And the quality control, they literally would go through every page of every book and we would not put a book in inventory that had a blemish, a nick in the corner--it was very, very strict on quality control. And that was one of the things that the Green Tiger image was excellent. And it was there when I bought it, and we did not let that go down, that state. 00:36:32.065 --> 00:36:42.000 What heavy equipment did you have it--on the first level? There's some heavy duty electrical outlets there. 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:49.094 Heavy duty, well, we had our computer, for one, which was a large mainframe computer. 00:36:49.094 --> 00:36:50.735 But on downstairs-- 00:36:50.735 --> 00:36:52.000 Oh, downstairs. In the warehouse. 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 Yeah. 00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:00.804 In the warehouse we had all the racks and they're heavy duty, of course, because they went from floor to ceiling. 00:37:00.804 --> 00:37:03.435 And those had books and paper. Books on them. 00:37:03.435 --> 00:37:05.000 Books. All books. No paper because we didn't do any printing. 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:06.000 Okay. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.000 Um, occasionally we'd buy paper, but, but, but very rarely-- 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.114 Stock of cards, group of cards-- 00:37:12.114 --> 00:37:17.000 All the cards. All the cards. All the books. Finished product now we're talking about. 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000 Yeah. Right. 00:37:18.000 --> 00:38:04.000 Uh, always boxed, very heavy. So with the racks were heavy and, and loaded, of course, they were very heavy. We had lift trucks. We had a, what was called a shrink wrap machine, which was over backed in behind the staircase. And we had the shipping department, which was consisted of a lot of heavy, you know, heavy tables and things that nature ; scales, automatic scales, that type of thing. Nothing extremely heavy. And the computers, like I say, were upstairs. And then we had a large, that large huge carousel. I don't know if you ever saw that. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.000 I did. 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.000 You did see that? 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.000 Yes. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:20.000 Yeah. Well, we had that and I--beyond this, of course, I was--I was hoping that you could find a use for that, because it was so beautiful, I thought, but you couldn't. And I still have it, so-- 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.000 Uh-huh good. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:39:00.074 We didn't, we just couldn't let it go. We still got it because it was--we designed it and we built it. We still have it. But there wasn't anything any heavier than that upstairs, except we had an old antique press that was probably--probably close to a hundred years old or older. Manual operated press with a great big huge wheel that was tremendously heavy. That was upstairs. And we had some old antique church pews and things of that nature upstairs. And, uh, nothing really heavy. Nothing beyond the press. 00:39:00.074 --> 00:39:06.000 How did you decide to sell to Simon & Schuster when you did? 00:39:06.000 --> 00:43:18.494 Well, that's an interesting, a very interesting story, Marion. I really did not have the company for sale. The company was not for sale. I felt like we had a long ways to go before we were ready to try to sell the company. And besides, we were having fun and I didn't really want to sell it. There were days that I wanted to sell it because of, basically because of my disability, because it was very hard for me some days. And, especially when we were downtown, it was extremely hard. But as I say, the company was not for sale. And one day, I guess it was in '89, might've been latter part of '88, I had a call from Simon & Schuster, and it was from the Vice President of Acquisitions from Simon & Schuster. And I don't know if you know much about the Simon & Schuster Company or not, but anyway, they are the largest publisher in the world. Book publisher in the world. They grew to be that way by a lot of acquisitions. They bought a lot of companies, although they were a large publisher to begin with. They're owned by Paramount Studios in Hollywood. And Paramount, I'm sure you know, with what Paramount owns, and they own about everything you see on television practically. And they own Simon & Schuster. Well, anyway, the vice president called me and just said that they have been looking over my shoulder for four years, and I didn't know that, of course. And they said, we like what we see, and we'd like to come out and talk to you about a possible purchase. And naturally, I was taken aback by that. And I just said, "Well, I'm really not interested in-- not in the selling mode right now. And, you know, maybe a year from now or two." And they said, well, that's fine, you know, but we're in San Diego often, and, you know, could we get acquainted and could we maybe have dinner or whatever. Well, one thing led to another, and one thing led to another. And after probably eight or nine or ten dinners, we were pretty well-acquainted. Marvelous company, uh, marvelous people and wonderful people to do business with. And, it reached a point where they just wanted the company really bad. And I guess that I had to make a business decision, and the business decision said, sell it. And so that's what I did. And, I think in the long run, I made the right decision because I think it would've--well, timing wise, it certainly was right. And I had no magic, you know, I didn't have any magic ball to look into or anything. I didn't know the recession was coming, but from a timing point of view, it was a good time. And I think from a health point of view was a good time because it was harder for me every day. And I don't think that--I don't think we could have gotten an offer like we did from anyone else for a long time. And I can't think of a better company that could have it. And because they're doing well with it. They, they've carried on, I think is as much of the Green Tiger image is as could be expected in a large corporation. Because a lot of it, a lot of the little things got lost. Uh, but everything, I know that it's being carried on pretty much the way it was. 00:43:18.494 --> 00:43:30.835 I'm gonna change the tape again. Okay, now. Well, what do you know about what's happened to the employees who worked for you for Green Tiger? 00:43:30.835 --> 00:44:15.000 Quite a bit actually. I could probably give you names of everyone that I, but I won't do that. But, there were four employees that I recommended to Simon & Schuster that they hire, because their intent was to move the company to New York, which they did. And I knew that the Green Tiger would lose all its image if some of the people didn't go. So I recommended four people. They interviewed all four people, and for various reasons, only one decided to go. 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:16.295 But one did. 00:44:16.295 --> 00:46:49.764 But one did. And probably the most important one, the sales manager, a young lady, uh, twenty-seven, twenty-eight years old. Young lady, Rita Eggers is her name. And she's a very high energy girl and very bright girl, knows the publishing business very, very well. Uh, she know--knew how to put on trade shows. She took care of all the reps. She served on the editorial staff. She did a little bit of everything. And if she needed to go down and wrap the pack and the shipping department, she would do that. I mean, she was that type of person. So they got a very good employee with her. And I understand she since has had a promotion and she's doing quite well. She's running the Green Tiger division, as well as a couple of other smaller divisions that are associated with children's books. So she's doing well. And I think they did well by hiring her. The others, the other three that I recommended for their own whatever personal reasons, just didn't want to move to New York or whatever they were. I don't know that. The others, um, one of them who was kind of my general manager, went to work for Hardcore Brace downtown in San Diego. The controller still works with me. And, the most of the people in the warehouse kind of scattered and they all landed on their feet because they were all young people. They were all thirty-five or less. There was two elderly gentlemen, that I understand, did--they did both get jobs, out, I think even better for them because they both lived out in the East County so they didn't have to drive down that way. And the Thai ladies, I understand some of them went back to Thailand. I understand one of 'em went to Los Angeles and works now with a relative up there. And then I think a couple of them, from what I heard, went to work in Thai restaurants. So, they're going to school in addition to that. So I think most, for the most part, um, everybody just landed on their feet and came out fine. 00:46:49.764 --> 00:47:04.804 You mentioned before we started the tape that the card portion of the business did not, well, Simon & Schuster bought it, but didn't do anything with it for a while. What has happened to it? Where did it go? 00:47:04.804 --> 00:47:59.954 Well, they decided, I think after a few months that they did not want the card business. They'd never been in it. And they decided, you know, why should we do this? It's small, it's really not worth their--they're a billion-dollar corporation, so why mess around with a little three or $400,000 card business? And, so they just left it all with me. They left it in the building and they left all the inventory there. They left everything to do with the cards, and they put it up for sale. And it took a little longer, I believe, than what they had anticipated to sell it. But they finally sold it to a company in Santa Barbara, a young company--a young couple. Husband, wife--and I'm sorry. I can't, I just can't think of their names. 00:47:59.954 --> 00:48:03.000 So did you then send, ship the things--stock to them? 00:48:03.000 --> 00:49:32.114 Oh yeah. Oh yes. In fact, I was instrumental in helping sell the company. I worked with Simon & Schuster very closely on it. I took the people to the building. I showed 'em the inventory, showed 'em the film. Showed 'em the catalogs, you know, counseled them with everything that I knew about it. And they ended up then negotiating with Simon & Schuster. And they ended up buying the company. And then we helped them get everything shipped and moved. And it's there. And I understand that they just came out with their first line, I think. I think in fact, I believe it's this month. Come to think about it, it's May. And, I think they'll do well with it. I think they made a good purchase. I don't know what kind of whether--I don't know anything about the economics, so I don't know what that means, but knowing Simon & Schuster, I'm sure it was a fair transaction. And, these people were in the card business and they were very enthusiastic, and I think they'll do well with it. They were Green Tiger fans, and that's how they found out about it. So they had a lot of the books at home with, for their kids, and they had a lot of cards. And so they were kind of in that niche that buys Gold Tiger so they knew a little bit about it, and so I think they'll do fine. 00:49:32.114 --> 00:49:44.000 How long did it take to vacate the building itself? I assume Simon & Schuster didn't buy everything inside like the racks. I don't know, did they? No. 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:48.775 No, no. Oh, yes! They did buy the racks. Yes. I'm sorry. Sure. They did. Yes., they bought the racks. 00:49:48.775 --> 00:49:51.114 So all of that was literally shipped to New York? 00:49:51.114 --> 00:51:12.914 All of it was shipped to New York. They--they bought the company in December of 1990. By March, by the end of March, everything that they wanted, with the exception of the cards, was gone. The racks, everything. We--well, one exception, the lift truck stayed until the cards because we needed the lift truck to load and everything. So the cards, when once the cards were shipped and everything was gone, then we sent the lift truck to New York. And that took to I believe October. Uh, so Simon & Schuster literally rented the building from me for almost a year. For close to a year. They rented--I shouldn't say the building, they rented partial. You know, I just, it was square done with a square footage thing, and they rented just enough square feet to keep the cards there. And there was some, there's some machinery to do with the cards, but just little things. And, so we rented that portion and then the building sat until we rented it to the university. 00:51:12.914 --> 00:51:16.255 And how, how did that happen? I know you-- 00:51:16.255 --> 00:51:16.755 The university-- 00:51:16.755 --> 00:51:21.454 You and Dick Rush got together and talked about this. And eventually the foundation has leased it. 00:51:21.454 --> 00:52:43.414 Yes. The Foundation actually leased it from me. Yes. And not the university, but the foundation. Uh, the way it really happened, Marion, I have a good friend that's on your board. In fact, I have two good friends that's on the board, the foundation board. But Bill Daniels and Tony &lt ; inaudible&gt ; , and Tony just mentioned to me one day that he would--that he had come out of a board meeting. They were looking for more facilities. And one was--I think he said something to do with books or warehousing catalogs. He didn't know. But he just said, "I think your building would fit them very nicely." And I always sat in my office and I'd look at up, and I could see the university right from my window. And I could say to my myself, gee, that they--they ought to use this. They need this building for something, you know, surely they've missed something up there, &lt ; laugh&gt ; . So anyway, I called Dick. He (Tony) told me, gave me name, a number, and he said, "Call Dick and talk to him." And so I did. And my wife and I went out and met Dick for lunch. Took him to the building and he just thought it was perfect for what he wanted. And then he--I think he had a few hurdles to cross, as you can, as you know-- 00:52:43.414 --> 00:52:44.565 We're a state agency. 00:52:44.565 --> 00:53:27.344 Yeah. He said, "I'll get back to you." And I said, "Okay, Dick, when will that be?" And he said, "Well, you're dealing with the state." And, you know, it took a few months. But anyway, then he got over the hurdles and they decided the best way was to lease it to the foundation, not to the university. And then he turned it over to Pat Parris. And I dealt with Pat, who was a wonderful person. And she has a wonderful staff also. And so I worked with Pat and then we got--we finally got it done. And then we had--we went through the hurdle of the god-ever-loving fire marshal, the State Fire Marshal. You probably know that whole story. 00:53:27.344 --> 00:53:29.085 Oh yes, I know--I know some of it. &lt ; Laugh&gt ; 00:53:29.085 --> 00:53:44.855 So we finally did that. And then they said, well, you gotta put in some doors and you gotta do this, and you gotta do that. And you probably know all about that too. So we put in those two new doors in the front, and then we just finished putting two new doors in the back. And I--in fact, I hope they're done. Do you know, are they? 00:53:44.855 --> 00:53:46.414 I don't know. 00:53:46.414 --> 00:53:57.264 I hope they are, they were supposed to have been done, I think last week. But anyway, all that got finished and I think you guys took the building over in January. 00:53:57.264 --> 00:54:02.324 Yes. We had computer equipment coming for the library the week of January 6th. 00:54:02.324 --> 00:54:03.324 I remember that. 00:54:03.324 --> 00:54:08.000 Yeah. And Pat was very concerned about it right before Christmas. 00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.436 Because she knew she had to have a place to put those computers. 00:54:11.436 --> 00:54:20.655 Right. And it turned out they sent them to us, to our current location, and they sent them early. So we stacked them up when somebody went away on Christmas vacation. 00:54:20.655 --> 00:54:22.295 Oh, I didn't know that. 00:54:22.295 --> 00:54:26.000 And they were already there, so that Pat had an extra week. So it just worked. 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:28.875 Worked out. 00:54:28.875 --> 00:54:35.934 Yeah. Because we had computer installation on the 14th. The morning of the 14th. And training on the afternoon. 00:54:35.934 --> 00:54:52.264 Yes. Because I was in the building. In fact, I was there. I don't even know why I was out there. I was there for something. I guess it had to do something with the doors or something. Because we had to put that one door in the base, in the warehouse on the side. By the steps. 00:54:52.264 --> 00:54:53.635 Right, right. 00:54:53.635 --> 00:55:02.684 And I don't know what I was there for, but anyway, I just happened to go upstairs and everybody was up there in the training program. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Well. 00:55:02.684 --> 00:55:05.514 Well, I thank you very much for-- 00:55:05.514 --> 00:55:06.494 Did we cover everything? 00:55:06.494 --> 00:55:14.655 --everything. &lt ; inaudible&gt ; , I think we have been through all of the questions. Is there anything else you'd like you ask to add? 00:55:14.655 --> 00:55:45.000 Uh, the only thing I would add, Marion, is that I've done on, I've been in business--well, I'm 62 years old, let's put it that way. And I've been in business a long time, and I've met people all over the world and I've done business with people all over the world and all I can--what I'd like to say is, and I don't know what you wanna do with this, or maybe nothing, but I'd like to just say that I've never met a finer group of people than what you have. 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:46.000 Oh, thank you. 00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:54.824 They really have been wonderful, everybody. This one fellow that, was involved with the fire marshal, Al. 00:55:54.824 --> 00:55:55.744 Al Amato. 00:55:55.744 --> 00:56:11.445 I'll tell you. He was wonderful. But of course, everyone has been. Pat and Dick and Bill Stacy and--we've had lunch a few times together--and all of them. And you're the most recent and you're not--you're wonderful too. 00:56:11.445 --> 00:56:13.744 &lt ; laugh&gt ; . Well, thank you very much. 00:56:13.744 --> 00:56:43.000 But really, I do mean that sincerely. It's been a real pleasure for me. Well, and I just hope that we can have a long--you know, I'm not a big founder, but I'm a founder, and I feel very proud of that. I feel proud of the fact that I'm associated with the university because I think it was desperately needed, and it's gonna be more needed in the future, I feel. And I just hope that nothing, God forbid, I hope nothing happens that slows the progress. 00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:44.614 Well, we appreciate your support. 00:56:44.614 --> 00:56:51.335 Well you've got it. And I'm out beating bushes for Dick right now. In fact, that, that's one of the reasons I was in here today. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright. audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.xml MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/41 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Macchia, Jerry. Interview, May 13, 1992. Description An account of the resource Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC060-01 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Green Tiger Press Publishers and publishing -- California -- San Diego -- History Simon and Schuster (Inc.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-05-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerry Macchia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marion Reid Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Community history CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Greg Evans OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EvansGreg_and_Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Comic strip;Luann;Cartoonist;Arts OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview March 25, 2025. SC027-075 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Comic strip ; Luann ; Cartoonist ; Arts Greg Evans Karen Evans Jennifer Fabbi moving image EvansGreg_and Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3091fa827e01d0bf084b61797484604f.mp4 Other video 5 Introduction Oral history interview of Greg and Karen Evans, March 25th, 2025, by Jennifer Fabbi, Special Collections Librarian, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 68 Summary of the “Luann” comic strip Greg Evans summarizes the evolving story of “Luann,” how Luann has aged over time, and how the comic strip is about finding your way through life. teenager ; Peanuts ; Garfield ; sitcom ; comedy 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 172 Business model of “Luann” Greg Evans describe the business model of “Luann” including how the creative process has changed with technology. syndication ; humor ; digital ; Cintiq 0 [""] 258 Creative process of “Luann” Greg and Karen Evans discuss the creative process of working on a comic strip and how they collaborate as they work on the strip together. Karen reflects on her perspective of Greg’s creative process when she was a child. creative ; director ; editor ; childhood ; drawing ; artist ; family legacy ; writing ; collaboration ; process ; screenplay ; Lynn Johnston ; For Better or For Worse ; Mary Worth 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 639 Serious issues in “Luann" Greg and Karen Evans discuss controversial content over the years. period ; censorship ; non-controversial ; teenagers ; educational ; drug dealer ; cancer ; moderate ; benign ; Zits 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1086 Greg's creative experience before "Luann" Greg Evans discusses his desire to be a cartoonist from an early age and other comic strip ideas he had before “Luann.” He also reflects on how his daughter, Karen, was his inspiration for “Luann.” Disney Studios ; Peanuts ; Playboy magazine ; daughter ; family ; magazines ; cartooning ; career ; heart ; ideas 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1420 Karen’s early experience with “Luann" The comic strip is loosely based on Karen’s life. Karen talks about her experience with “Luann” and the cartoonist community at an early age. Comic strip work is very flexible, which afforded the family to travel. travel ; Charles Schultz ; Sparky ; parents ; home ; Santa Rosa 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1770 Interaction with fans Greg and Karen Evans discuss how they have engaged their “Luann” fans over the years, including interactive content and contests. "Luann" celebrated its fortieth anniversary in March 2025, and Greg and Karen describe the fan interaction designed for this milestone. GoComics ; fanbase ; community ; comments ; San Diego Comic-Con ; National Cartoonists Society ; voting ; fashion show ; engaged ; wedding ; LuannFan ; Luanniversary 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2556 Creation of musicals Greg Evans discusses his creation of several musicals over the years. Luann the Musical ; musical ; A Boy and A Girl ; Wrinkles ; Quibbling Siblings ; production ; GarageBand 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2912 Jobs before "Luann" Greg Evans talks about teaching and one of his early jobs, running MaXwel the robot. El Centro ; Merced ; Australia ; teacher ; television news ; Colorado Springs ; MaXwel the robot ; Seaport Village ; San Diego Zoo 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3238 Future of "Luann" Greg and Karen Evans talk about how they see “Luann” playing out in the future. graphic novel ; television show ; three dimension ; intellectual property ; opportunities ; community 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3579 Luann's journey to college Karen Evans the interview discussing the development of “Luann” and other main characters in the later years. Luann’s journey to colleges was also an exhibit at the CSUSM University Library during summer 2016. college ; graduate ; high school ; teenager ; adult ; exhibit ; CSUSM University Library 0 [""] oral history Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:05.375 --> 00:00:36.945 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Greg and Karen Evans for the California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) University Library Oral History Program. Today is March 25th, 2025, and this interview is taking place at Greg Evans' Studio at his home in San Marcos, California. Greg received an honorary doctorate of fine arts from CSUSM in 2016, so aka "Dr. Evans." Greg and Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:36.945 --> 00:00:38.524 That's an honor.--Absolutely. 00:00:38.524 --> 00:01:03.104 Okay. So let's start out with a pretty general question. The two of you are very notable narrators as the co-creators of the syndicated comic strip, "Luann." For anyone listening, who might not be as familiar with "Luann," how would you summarize the strip? 00:01:03.104 --> 00:02:10.895 (Laughter) Right. Okay. Cut that part. Well, it's really changed and evolved over forty years. It started out as a--what they call a gag-a-day strip--very much like "Peanuts" or "Garfield." In fact, I was highly inspired by "Peanuts." The whole little kids with big heads, no parents. That's how "Luann" started--jokes about being a teenage girl. And as time went on, I introduced more characters and relationships and drama and trauma. And so the strip now has sort of evolved into a bit more of a comedic, dramatic, we call it like a sitcom, comic strip kind of a deal. And "Luann" has sort of officially aged a couple of times in the strip--had a birthday once and turned sixteen--anyway, now she's nineteen, she's in college. And new characters ; some old characters have left. But it's basically about-- 00:02:10.895 --> 00:02:12.224 Finding your way in life. 00:02:12.224 --> 00:02:15.944 Yeah. Finding your way through life. Yes. 00:02:15.944 --> 00:02:38.854 Yep. And I think a sitcom is a good way to put it, where you have a kind of a main character with Luann, that there's a whole cast around her and so there are stories that tap into all these different life experiences. What am I doing, and where am I going? It's a pretty universal theme. 00:02:38.854 --> 00:02:52.625 Okay. So would you discuss the current status of Luann including each of your roles in the creative and publishing process? 00:02:52.625 --> 00:04:19.605 Luann is syndicated through Universal Press Syndicate, which is, or--Andrew McMeel Universal--they changed their name. But there are these companies and their job is to sell comic strips and advice columns and crossword puzzles and those kinds of content to newspapers all around the country and the world. And so comic strips are a big part of what they're selling to these, to these papers. That's the basic business model, and my job is to create this strip and get it on time, uh, forever. And, more recently as newspapers have struggled, we've seen a decline in print clients, but the internet has picked up, so "Luann" is online, and there's some sharing of ad revenue and that sort of thing. So that's become sort of adjunct to the business model. I draw the strip by ha--I did draw the strip by hand on paper with markers for many, many years. I have a whole stack of 'em. Then I went digital about a decade ago and do it all now on this Cintiq with a pen. And then about-- 00:04:19.605 --> 00:04:20.605 A little over ten years ago. 00:04:20.605 --> 00:04:26.125 A little over ten years ago, she came along and complicated the whole process. 00:04:26.125 --> 00:04:52.084 (Laughter) I did. I did. So that was kind of interesting because "Luann" started when I was six. So this was very much something that was a part of how I grew up and just what my dad did. And really, when you see someone working on a comic strip, the thinking part of it often just looks like sort of staring out into space or napping plays a crucial role. 00:04:52.084 --> 00:04:53.125 And then it looks like this. (mimics being asleep) 00:04:53.125 --> 00:04:54.685 Yes. 00:04:54.685 --> 00:04:56.004 That's, that's being creative. 00:04:56.004 --> 00:04:58.483 You probably--do you wanna write those ideas down? 00:04:58.483 --> 00:04:59.584 I do. 00:04:59.584 --> 00:07:15.464 And then you'd see him drawing, and he had a home studio. So mostly what I saw as far as creating "Luann" looked like drawing. And I'm not a horrible artist, but I'm not drawn to drawing. So it wasn't something, like, I grew up thinking, oh, I wanna draw Luann someday. Anyways, flash forward, and we were driving to LA talking about the strip and how it's such a legacy in and of itself, and a family legacy, and wouldn't it be amazing if we had family that could, you know, be involved and carry it forward? And it dawned on us that there's the writing, and there's the drawing, and they don't necessarily have to come from the same person. And I've always had a draw to write and writing and storytelling. So we were like, well, maybe that would be fun. We'll give it a try. And it clicked pretty quickly. And then I appreciated how much work was happening that wasn't at the drawing board because the writing is, is crucial. So over those ten some years that I've been co co-working with you, the process kind of goes, we brainstorm big story ideas, and then it's now my responsibility to get the beats of that fleshed out. We do kind of phone and email chats. We'll meet in person--I only live fifteen minutes away. So, we'll make sure it's on the right trajectory, and then I come up with the initial draft, and it very much looks like a screenplay, where it's like, Monday is M, panel one is a 1, and then like L says, da, da da da da. Because interestingly, similar to a screenplay, like you don't put in a whole lot of details about what the set's supposed to look like or what the actors are supposed to do. That's the job of the director. So I feel like he's very much the director and takes that dialogue and then translates it. He'll do some tweaks or adjustments and then translates it into the performance, the art. And shares the art back to me. His wife, my mom Betty, plays a big role in that, too, like reviewing and making sure everything came through and the right number of buttons are on the shirts and all the pants and things. (Laughing) My mom has a really good knack for catching like, those things. 00:07:15.464 --> 00:07:22.845 She'll literally do that. She's like, in panel one, you drew seven buttons, but look, in panel three, there's only six. 00:07:22.845 --> 00:07:55.975 Yep. She's the detail, she's like the editor. And usually the process goes smoothly, but there's definitely times that we get going on the process, and the characters will rebel or come up with some angle that didn't happen until a lot of times it comes out in the drawing. Or as he's drawing, there's something that can be expressed better in the art than in the words that were originally drafted out. So you end up changing the words or eliminating words, and it's kind of a fascinating process. 00:07:55.975 --> 00:08:32.465 Years ago when I first started out, Lynn Johnston, who does, "For Better or For Worse," that comic strip, she said, "I'm not a writer, I'm just a transcriber 'cause my characters speak to me." And I, at the time, I thought, eh, that sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo. (Laughter). But it's very true. It's very true. The characters take on lives of their own, and you're writing something and suddenly, oh, Luann decided to say that or do this instead of what I thought, you know? It's a weird, interesting thing. 00:08:32.465 --> 00:09:09.384 Or a character that wasn't supposed to be in the scene shows up and suddenly you're like, wha?? Or we'll brainstorm and have the perfect idea. It's so solid, it's so good. And then I'll sit down to write it and the characters are just standing there silent. (Laughter) No, not happening, not happening today. Yeah. And you push and you prod and then eventually go, okay, maybe we have to throw this premise out. And what are we doing instead? So it's pretty fascinating, I always describe it to people, it's like writing a sitcom in haiku 'cause we have such a little space to tell this story. And I think we, we pack a lot in. 00:09:09.384 --> 00:09:17.027 And still try to be funny. It's still marketed as a humor strip. You know, it's not a "Mary Worth" kind of a thing. 00:09:17.027 --> 00:09:18.154 A heavy drama. 00:09:18.154 --> 00:09:26.000 It's not heavy drama. And we avoid politics, religion, sex-- 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.315 --rock and roll. All those things. 00:09:27.315 --> 00:09:44.514 Anything that's controversial, because especially these days, it's real easy to get people riled up about different things. And you don't wanna annoy your newspaper editors and readers and have them cancel your strip, so pretty benign. 00:09:44.514 --> 00:10:22.683 Well, and that, our job is, we're in the business of entertainment. So as a comic strip, in particular, I feel like we're hoping to be relatable, be intriguing, and have a lighthearted look so even when we've had serious storylines or serious conflict in a strip, we're leading towards some purposeful growth or some humor layer that we're looking at those things. Because I don't know, the world is really serious and difficult, so getting to be on this side of make the world a little better and brighter is kinda awesome. 00:10:22.683 --> 00:10:39.195 I have a follow up about this. So you talk about it being lighthearted, but over the years it's also featured some serious issues and historical moments. So would you give a few, a couple of examples of the issues you've tackled? 00:10:39.195 --> 00:12:01.284 Well, as I started doing the strip, like I said, at first it was just jokes about boys and hair and stuff. Well, after a while, I mean, how many jokes can you do about hair and boys? So, I started getting into, I realized if I'm doing a strip about teenagers, there's a certain huge world here to talk about in a responsible way. So I kind of thought, well, the strip should maybe try to be entertaining but maybe informative or inspirational in some fashion, or even educational. So fairly early on, I started doing topics along those lines. So I did one about a drug dealer that tried to get Bernice involved in his life. And probably the most significant one I did was way back in '91. Luann had her first period, and it was a two-week storyline that a lot of it was, well, a lot of Luann was right here (gestures at Karen). But I didn't want to, I didn't want to do a story about her after, you know, so I wanted to precede her on that one. Otherwise-- 00:12:01.284 --> 00:12:15.284 Yeah. "Luann," I think, was inspired often, but I always correct people it's not autobiographical or biographical to our family or my life, but that was a good thing that this storyline happened before I had my own personal experience. 00:12:15.284 --> 00:12:15.725 Yeah. 00:12:15.725 --> 00:12:18.465 Separate. Separate, but awesome. 00:12:18.465 --> 00:13:58.000 So, I approached the syndicate and said, "This is what I want to do." And they went, "No, no, no, we don't do this in a comic strip." And I said, "I think there's a way to do it." So I wrote, I rewrote, I wrote, and rewrote and sent them stuff back-and-forth it went until we finally got it. Okay. Little kids could read this and not really know maybe what they're talking about. We're not going to use the P-word or anything like that in here. However, they wanted me to do two additional weeks of just regular "Luann" strips for any newspapers that opted not to run the period strips. So I did those, and out of three hundred newspaper clients, two of 'em opted not to run the period and ran those, those other ones. If "Luann" is, you know, remembered historically for anything, it'll probably be for that series. I did get lots of email--or mail back then--from and mostly supportive. There was those who said, This does not belong on the comic page. I come to the comics for entertainment and for a laugh, and you have this. You know, How do I explain this to my ten-year-old daughter? This kind of thing. But then you get other people, school nurses who say, I get girls in here who have no idea what's going on, and they're horrified and terrified, and so thank you. This was a wonderful thing. So that was probably the biggest one we did. And then we did a thing on Mothers Against Driving Drunk is, I think it's called. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:58.495 I think that's, yeah. 00:13:58.495 --> 00:14:02.284 And we've done a thing for firefighters. 00:14:02.284 --> 00:14:04.105 Delta had cancer. 00:14:04.105 --> 00:14:06.475 Yeah. One of my characters had cancer. 00:14:06.475 --> 00:14:27.095 And went through treatments for that and yeah, we had a toxic--verging on an abusive--relationship that we worked through and yeah. I'm trying to think what else we've done. 00:14:27.095 --> 00:14:54.725 Are there--so thinking about this--having to create the two weeks in case someone opted out, and there were only two that opted out of three hundred. Are there any--so that feels a little like censorship to me. So is there any other time that you have wanted to do something that you have felt kind of censored in your process? 00:14:54.725 --> 00:15:42.625 Mm, not really, because I'm a pretty mild, moderate kind of a guy, so "Luann" has always been pretty, like I said, pretty benign. Although I remember early in the strip I did a joke where I used the word zits talking about, Oh, I have zits. And I sent it in, and they wrote back and said, "You know, people don't want to be eating their breakfast and their eggs and reading about zits, so can we change it to blemishes?" And I thought, what teen girl says oh my blemishes? But it was changed. Okay. Then a few years later, what comes along? A comic strip called Zits. (Laughter) 00:15:42.625 --> 00:17:29.174 Who knows, who knows? I think there's a fine line too, between feeling, and we've been, we've been really fortunate, like all the syndicates you've worked for, or worked with, have been supportive. They're--they trust, they're there to work with creators. We have an editor who reviews everything, and sometimes they'll catch things that like, you know, we've used a phrase or something that we don't know there's a larger cultural context, or like, in some places this might be misconstrued and oh, I didn't know it was used that way. So we do have editorial oversight, I guess, but very much trust in the creators and the characters and what this comic strip is. But that being said, we're mindful of who and what our audience is. Like, we are in newspapers. That's very different than a book that somebody is going to a certain section or a certain age group. If you're thinking about newspapers, they come to a home, and anybody in that home could have access to the newspaper. And a lot of the newspaper page is meant to be shared. And what's on the comics page is kind of all ages material from things that are aimed for younger readers to more adult content. So being mindful of your audience and what that experience is. And I think that's part of why for us, there have been storylines, especially as the characters have aged, like, they're nineteen-year-olds. There's quite a few things that nineteen-year-olds are interested in, curious about, or doing that we're just not gonna address because of where our material goes out and who the potential audience is. That being said, I think we've done some clever work to acknowledge that our characters are at nineteen, and there are adult things happening in their lives. And that's kind of an interesting challenge sometimes, I think. 00:17:29.174 --> 00:17:29.184 Yeah. 00:17:29.184 --> 00:17:53.884 But there are, there are, there are things going on in our characters' lives that I'm sure they would like to talk about or share, and we're just, the medium that we're in is not the right fit for that. But as far as feeling a sense of censorship, I think that zits example is the best one. (Laughter) Thankfully. Minor, thankfully. 00:17:53.884 --> 00:18:06.755 Okay, so now we're going back to the beginning. So for Greg, what was your creative experience prior to creating "Luann" and what was your inspiration for "Luann?" 00:18:06.755 --> 00:19:32.685 Well, I was born to be a cartoonist, I think. I always loved cartooning. I'd sit in my bedroom for hours on end drawing cartoons. I grew up in Burbank, not far from Disney Studios. Thought I'd get a job as an animator or something there. Later found out how good of a draftsman you need to be to be an animator. You have to be able to draw characters all positions. And I'm, I'm not that good. And then my parents took the Saturday Evening Post, and they had cartoons in there, and I loved those. And I found out somehow that wait a minute, people are doing these and getting paid to draw these cartoons? I'd like to do that too. And then discovered comics in the newspaper and "Peanuts," of course, was so huge at the time. And I thought, yeah, I could do this with my kind of limited drawing skills and my interest in writing and telling stories and jokes. This seems like a perfect fit for my particular set of talents. And so I started coming up with ideas for comic strips, probably, I don't know, when I was in college, my first ones. And I had sent single panel jokes to all the magazines. In fact, I can show you here. I sent this one. Does that show up okay? 00:19:32.685 --> 00:19:35.233 It does. I can see it. 00:19:35.233 --> 00:19:56.904 (Greg shows sketch.) This I sent to Playboy magazine when I was 11 years old. (Laughter) So it's Joe the Plumber "Pluming,"and he's getting out of his truck in the toilet seat. And there's my elaborate signature with all those blades of grass that I drew by hand. I figured I'm gonna really earn my money here. Rejected that. 00:19:56.904 --> 00:20:03.743 But I think it's important to note that he had heard some how, some way that Playboy was one of the top paying-- 00:20:03.743 --> 00:20:05.075 --Yes. They paid the most. 00:20:05.075 --> 00:20:11.914 They paid the most, which is that's true. They paid very well for their comics. So he was, you know, financially strategic there. 00:20:11.914 --> 00:20:11.924 I was, yes. 00:20:11.924 --> 00:20:14.445 How did you know that? At eleven? 00:20:14.445 --> 00:20:16.714 At eleven I wanted to make a lot of money 00:20:16.714 --> 00:20:20.275 Guessing older contacts. How would you have known that? 00:20:20.275 --> 00:20:24.914 Yeah, I don't know. Uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. (Laughter) 00:20:24.914 --> 00:20:26.605 Like, read it somewhere. No idea. 00:20:26.605 --> 00:22:09.315 Read it somewhere, you know, I was always looking for articles or information about cartooning as a career, you know, it's hard to find 'cause it's kind of a weird off the thing. But yeah, so I sent off the one cartoon and that, you know, then I waited for the bunnies to roll up in the, in the limo and Hugh Hefner {Laughter). Walk to my door and hand me my check for $250. But that didn't happen. But anyway, I submitted to every magazine, and then I started submitting to the syndicates--comic strips--and I probably submitted fifteen or so of those. Here's one of the very first ones I submitted. (Greg shows comic strip.) Real simple, Just a little two guys. That was gonna be my whole premise of the whole strip is just these two guys talking and saying funny things. How long would that have been interesting? (Laughter) I don't think so. I don't know. And then I had ideas that I didn't know anything about. Like, here's one, that was sort of an inner city thing. "Seamy Heights." (Greg shows comic strip.) "Seamy Heights," and it had cops and it had guns and all these kinds of things. Well, I don't know anything about being a cop or inner-city life. So I was coming, you know, out of my brain instead of my heart trying to come up with ideas that, let's see, I'm looking at the comics, and there's nothing here about clowns in the circus, so I'll do that. You know? Then Karen, at about age five or six one day was walking around all dressed up in Betty's dress and high heels and stuff. 00:22:09.315 --> 00:22:09.712 Gotten into her makeup, 00:22:09.712 --> 00:23:10.565 Got into the makeup, and I thought, hmm, maybe I should do something about a kind of a saucy little, little girl. And so I started working on that idea, and somehow she told me that she should be thirteen. I just aged her to thirteen instead of, of young. And because it's a lot more juicy material at that age. So, uh, and then boy, the ideas just came like crazy. I set her in this family based on our family. She, Luann, has a brother who's three years older, just like Karen does and all that. And now I was writing, it was coming from my heart instead of from my head. And I knew this, this is probably gonna be the one. Sent it off and it got accepted. So, I got to do what I always wanted to do my whole life and be a cartoonist. 00:23:10.565 --> 00:23:14.182 I love that. Coming from your heart instead of your head. 00:23:14.182 --> 00:23:14.483 Yeah. Yeah. 00:23:14.483 --> 00:23:40.000 Because it was related to your family. Right. So we've talked a little bit about how "Luann" is based on Karen, Karen's life, but not too closely. It's not autobiographical. Karen, what was this like? Were you knowledgeable of this? What was this like for you? And tell me a little bit about that. 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:56.934 Well, I guess when I was younger, before Luann started, my dad made a living running a robot for entertainment. So that was normal in my house. 00:23:56.934 --> 00:23:59.541 (Greg shows photo of MaXwel the robot.} There may be people around from longer ago. Who remember. 00:23:59.541 --> 00:24:00.845 Yeah. So MaXwel, the robot. 00:24:00.845 --> 00:24:05.704 MaXwel the robot, he was at, I did Seaport Village, I did the zoo, I did all kinds of stuff. 00:24:05.704 --> 00:26:33.815 So dad would stand in the crowd with a, with a little hidden microphone that he had, then a bag with the controls. So he'd stand in the crowd and control this robot, and the robot would do like, crowd interactions and had some music it could play and some tricks with--like, its hat would spin and jokes and this whole thing. So that was normal in my young childhood. And then it transitioned, and there were a few years that they overlapped so he was running the robot and doing a comic strip. So then it transitioned right about the time that I would've started school, that he was now staying home and doing a comic strip. So I guess my point is I didn't have this experience, where I could compare it to what most kids' dads might have been doing, or like a typical nine-to-five sort of situation. So for a long time it just seemed normal. Now that being said, I was aware that this is something where my friends knew about it, and their families read it, and we got to do interesting things relating to meeting other cartoonists. We did a trip later, when I was like nine. We did a motor home trip traveling around, and we visited, like Jim Davis and we Sparky--so Charles Schultz--lived in Santa Rosa and had an ice skating rink that's still there and put on these amazing holiday like escapades on ice. And so many years that was a Christmas tradition. We'd go up because dad had become friends with Sparky. So like, we're at a table having dinner with Sparky. I got my first pair of roller blades from Sparky because his daughter had been on the cusp, like the cutting edge of roller blades, and they were selling them there. Like you kind of realize that's, that's special. But it wasn't until maybe later in my teen years that I had a little more perspective on what, like, how unusual this is as just a career, and that the lifestyle it afforded us as a family to be able to have someone who was there working from home. Like I always had a parent who could be home because that's where he worked. And that it was flexible enough that we were able to do some, like, travel things and you didn't have to, you know, navigate the time off with your coworkers and it's such a headache. So it wasn't until I was older that I really understood how rare and unique and, uh, special it is. I think-- 00:26:33.815 --> 00:26:45.035 --Just, I think it, it's a rare job in, in the sense that you, I can bank work so I can really work hard and bank that stuff. Get it ahead, send it. 00:26:45.035 --> 00:26:47.785 How far in advance do they require that you send it then? 00:26:47.785 --> 00:26:48.714 Six weeks. 00:26:48.714 --> 00:26:49.464 Oh, okay. 00:26:49.464 --> 00:26:57.224 Six weeks. But when we took that motor home trip, I worked ahead a whole three months, sent it off and-- 00:26:57.224 --> 00:26:57.825 Off you go. 00:26:57.825 --> 00:27:04.424 Off we go. And I don't, I can't think of many other jobs where you can, you know, where you can do that. 00:27:04.424 --> 00:27:39.000 And without having to be like, let me get permission. This is a special, special circumstance. I mean, all the syndicate just needs 365 days of work to put out. And, how you get it done. I mean, I know there are some other cartoonists that will do, we know one that he does six months of the year. He writes a whole year and draws a whole year of his material. And so that the other six months he can do any other travel or work projects or creative things he wants. Some people are very seat of the pants and others are, they're banking, and they have years of work in advance. It's really interesting. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:28:07.835 Yeah, some of 'em will do, instead of one strip a day, they'll do two. So in no time they're way ahead. And then there's other cartoonists, who don't get inspiration until the FedEx truck is pulling up to their door. (Laughter) And then there's others like Garry Trudeau who does "Doonesbury." So his is very topical and timely. So, he's right on deadline, everything is Fedexed, overnighted, and that kind of thing. 00:28:07.835 --> 00:29:05.065 So, yeah, now I--and even as I got older and realized this was rare and special--it wasn't until I started working with him that I understand not only how it's rare and special, but what just unique storytelling and a unique model as a creative it is. I'm so grateful for as long as we can hold onto the syndication model because we have, there's a team and their job is to handle distribution and promotion and sales. And our job is purely creative. And that's increasingly rare as a creative person. You've gotta have, you know, you're out there hustling and hustling or self-publishing or trying to hold people's attention and to have a, a creative outlet where we still do have, there are a lot of our fans are still getting newspapers, and it's our creative materials delivered literally to their doorstep every single day. 00:29:05.065 --> 00:29:07.825 And then put into the bird cage on the bottom. 00:29:07.825 --> 00:29:17.984 Yes. I was gonna say we're very humbled, but yeah, we are, we're, we're literally humbled as well. So yeah. That's pretty awesome. 00:29:17.984 --> 00:29:28.634 So speaking of your fans, you have quite an active fan base and I am wondering how you interact with your fans. 00:29:28.634 --> 00:30:58.526 Yeah, that has changed a lot. And when did GoComics launch, fifteen years ago? It's longer than we think. So GoComics is the website where "Luann" shows up online, and that is, our syndicate still does the newspaper side, but they had the forethought to go, this is, we need a, a backup plan. So they have the largest online presence for comics. and that was really interesting because when you're in the paper, you would get letters, but outside of that, you don't know if your fans are even reading it or what they think. But now there's an online comments section, and we don't spend a whole lot of time there 'cause it'll make you crazy trying to navigate people. But we have a very, very passionate fan base, and it's kind of neat to go in and see how people respond, what they latch onto, what they completely misunderstood, which is always really curious, I guess. I mean, we have some fans on there that are like, I've been reading this from day one and I've--they've read the whole archive--digital archive--if it's available. I've read it multiple times through. And their version of Bernice, the main character, is just like, how they perceive her based on their life experiences and their interpretation is so different from how we're meaning her to be portrayed. So it's kind of-- 00:30:58.526 --> 00:31:27.724 --And what's really fun about these online comment community is, you know, previously yes, I'd get mail from here, there, and everywhere, but the readers didn't interact in any way. Now these readers, they're, they're involved not just with the strip, but with each other. And so you'll see little birthday greetings or oh, sorry about your dog, or, you know, those kinds of things. Oh, hey, here's a new recipe. You know, so it's not always about, just about "Luann." So. 00:31:27.724 --> 00:31:32.585 It's, it's a real community. It's a real community. They watch out for each other and-- 00:31:32.585 --> 00:31:49.825 -- Yeah. Yeah. And they, they tend to push down the trolls and the, and the negative kinds of people and keep them, because I don't think there's anybody at the syndicate that's reading every comment and pulling things out. 00:31:49.825 --> 00:33:20.805 No, they have like a moderation system, but you kinda' have to flag somebody, and then they'll come in to intervene. But we have a very sort of, somehow our commenters, and I think it's partially because of, like we described the tone of what the strip is, they want it to be a friendly community, and while they're open to everybody having different opinions, they don't appreciate it when people are being particularly negative or harsh or, you know, attacking each other. So it's kind of, it's kind of inspiring. So we have that going on. And then we've been going to Comic-Con for a number of years. Dad's been going to San Diego Comic-Con for decades, and I started going again with him. And so we have fans that always find us every year at Comic-Con. We're at the National Cartoonists Society booth, so it's like a little bit of a treasure hunt to find us, because we don't have a "Luann" booth that you could look up in the directory. But that's always really fun to see some of our longtime fans that have become friends and how have you been and what have you been up to the last year? And then we have people miraculously who wander through Comic-Con and find us and are fans and some that didn't know about us that become fans. And that's, that's pretty special 'cause you're interacting live with people. So we enjoy that. And then a few years back, well, let's see, we started some fan interactions. So the first one was the fashion show. Is there anything before that? 00:33:20.805 --> 00:33:23.881 Or voting? I think it was voting. 00:33:23.881 --> 00:33:24.843 Oh, right. 00:33:24.843 --> 00:33:25.795 So Luann was-- 00:33:25.795 --> 00:33:27.404 twenty-eight years ago 00:33:27.404 --> 00:33:42.809 --gonna go to the prom or something. And Gunther wants to take her, but she wants to go with Aaron Hill. Which one should she pick? Or how should it, I forgot what the exact question was. But we posed this question to the readers in the newspaper. So they had to send a postcard-- 00:33:42.809 --> 00:33:47.164 --Like choose your own adventure? 00:33:47.164 --> 00:33:58.954 Yeah. And then, and mail it in. And then six weeks later there were results, and here's how it went and showed the results. 00:33:58.954 --> 00:34:15.425 Yeah. And a lot of people participated. So all the postcards got sent, I think sent to the syndicate, but it wasn't like one or two. So, you know, hundreds of people sent in votes of Gunther or Aaron, and the storyline proceeded according to their winning votes. 00:34:15.425 --> 00:35:03.232 And then the fashion show--that was a huge thing. I had this idea of let's do a fashion show but involve readers in some fashion, in some way. So it was, there was a thing in the strip that said there's gonna be a "Luann" fashion show if you'd like to submit drawings of the characters, and it doesn't have to be the characters, but let's see your fashions. You know, oh my gosh, we got sixty thousand--we got some incredible number of drawings. Some people, you know, some, it was a crayon thing on a napkin, but others was like, somebody sent patterns that you would put and cut, you know, cut the fabric from to make the thing. And, uh, it was, it was just amazing. 00:35:03.232 --> 00:35:04.039 It was awesome. 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:04.832 It was just amazing. 00:35:04.832 --> 00:35:05.019 This was in like-- 00:35:05.019 --> 00:35:08.905 Then we had the fashion show in the strip, and we were able to show a whole bunch of these drawings. 00:35:08.905 --> 00:35:12.244 --ninety-four or ninety-five, maybe. 00:35:12.244 --> 00:35:12.938 The year? 00:35:12.938 --> 00:35:13.492 Yeah. 00:35:13.492 --> 00:35:14.324 Yeah, I think so. 00:35:14.324 --> 00:35:54.387 But the point being, it wasn't something you could email in or digitally upload. So this was all physically mailed. And I remember, again, it was sent to the syndicate and then they shipped it and sitting in the living room with just a sea of submissions and so amazing to see what people were up to. Little notes they'd include and how they interpreted characters, those who had, you know, drawn a Luann or Crystal or whomever it was, and address them in these fashions. So it was really cool. And then those fashions, he kind of translated that more directly into the strip. So-- 00:35:54.387 --> 00:35:55.605 How did you choose? 00:35:55.605 --> 00:35:56.715 I don't know how you chose it. 00:35:56.715 --> 00:36:54.525 Yeah, I don't know. That was tough. I mean, some of the stuff was inappropriate. Of course, those, but yeah, no, there was a lot of good stuff, and I wanted to show as much as I could. So I talked to the syndicate, and I said, "Is there a way that we can divide the country, all my clients into like a quadrant? So all the newspaper clients up here where submissions came from, and those winners they'll get that in their paper?" So I did four different versions of this two-week presentation of this thing. And so it was able--the great result of that was some kid would get notified that your, your thing is in the paper. And oh my gosh, they'd do a big story, a local story about the local kid who made it into "Luann." It was really cool. 00:36:54.525 --> 00:36:55.313 It was super cool. 00:36:55.313 --> 00:36:56.339 It was a lot of fun. 00:36:56.339 --> 00:36:57.108 Yeah, it was super cool. 00:36:57.108 --> 00:36:58.271 Yeah. That was, that was a huge-- 00:36:58.271 --> 00:37:01.815 It makes me wonder now when we look at GoComics, so it has the archive on there, but it only has one-- 00:37:01.815 --> 00:37:04.367 It would only have one of those. 00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:05.789 One of those. I wonder which one of those they chose. 00:37:05.789 --> 00:37:08.635 Good question. I, yeah. I don't know. 00:37:08.635 --> 00:37:10.914 Like, gotta dig up the other three. 00:37:10.914 --> 00:37:12.585 Yeah. 00:37:12.585 --> 00:37:21.164 So the fashion show was a success and then many years later, Brad and Toni would've been the next one, right? 00:37:21.164 --> 00:37:22.184 I think so. 00:37:22.184 --> 00:40:22.695 So Brad and Toni--Luann's brother, Brad, and his girlfriend Toni--dramatic dating story, evolution of Brad as a human being. They're getting ready, they get engaged, and fans were so into the story of this couple and their life and Brad's growth from this kind of like pointless slob to a firefighter. And he had all this purpose. And so we decided we wanted to do some wedding stuff. So we built out luannefan.com. That's how it got started, as a place for us to build these wedding-related activities. So we posted photo albums, which were collections of chapters in their dating story 'cause they dated seven, eight years in the strip. So you could go back and revisit from the beginning and reread these strips collected together. We had a wedding wishes, so people could send in their wedding wishes and good thoughts for Brad and Toni. And people wrote these lovely, you know, advice. And it's been so inspiring watching you as a couple. I mean, these people are so real to us and to our, to our readers. It was just sweet. As firefighters, we had them, instead of gifts you could choose, you know, sort of a gift registry. You could donate to a firefighters fund. And people did do that. And then the big thing was a wedding dress competition. So, similar to the fashion show, submit your designs, but this time we had digital technology so people could upload their designs and then upvote what--so it wasn't us choosing-- up vote, up vote, up vote. And that was pretty neat. I think we ended up with like forty-six thousand votes on wedding dresses and six hundred some dress designs uploaded. And a lot of neat participation. And then the winning dress design was translated. And that's what Toni wore in the wedding with a little, you know, call out and congratulations. So that was really cool. So we have a lot of fan interaction. And then we revived the Luann Fan a few years back and have started a monthly newsletter that we send out where we're sharing some, you know, little behind the scenes stories and tips--not tips--tidbits about, you know, how the current storyline came to be or oddball stuff from our lives. Just as a way to engage with fans. So that's been awesome. We just did our fortieth anniversary and big positive, happy wishes from fans and people wanting to join the newsletter and people sending great, beautiful, sweet comments on online. Very lucky to have a wonderful fan base. 00:40:22.695 --> 00:40:23.835 Forty years. 00:40:23.835 --> 00:40:25.005 Yeah. Forty years. 00:40:25.005 --> 00:40:32.715 I got a chance to look at all of your stuff from, from the day, from the Sunday. The video that you did and-- 00:40:32.715 --> 00:40:34.125 Yeah. 00:40:34.125 --> 00:40:35.864 It's really cool. The Luanniversary. 00:40:35.864 --> 00:40:36.958 The Luanniversary. 00:40:36.958 --> 00:40:37.621 Yeah. 00:40:37.621 --> 00:40:40.594 The one good thing about naming her Luann. 00:40:40.594 --> 00:40:40.605 Yeah. 00:40:40.605 --> 00:40:53.414 It translates to LuannFan is catchy and Luanniversary is perfect. Otherwise a lot of people, it's a hard name to remember or spell correctly. Too many spelling variants. 00:40:53.414 --> 00:41:11.914 Right. That one n gets me every time. (Laughter) Now I remember. Okay. I'm gonna switch gears a little bit. So Greg, you have a long history with CSU San Marcos and can you tell us about your CSUSM connections? 00:41:11.914 --> 00:41:15.284 Connections with San Marcos? 00:41:15.284 --> 00:41:16.244 With CSUSM. 00:41:16.244 --> 00:43:49.936 Oh, with, with university. Yeah. Well, let's see. We moved here in 1980, and that's five years before the strip started. And I ran the robot. And then got the strip going. And a couple of, a couple of interesting things, too, about San Marcos. People have asked me, where'd the name Luann come from? I didn't have a name for this character. I just knew I wanted something kind of not, she wasn't a Tiffany, you know. And I was driving around one day and there was a construction company that used to be in San Marcos called Louetto Construction. And they had their truck sitting out somewhere. Lou, I like the Lou part, not the etto. Uh, so Luann and then Aaron Hill, Luann's heartthrob, where we lived before we lived here, we lived sort of on a hill. And our son, Gary, his best friend lived on the adjacent hill. And his name was Aaron. Aaron Hill. I mean, how high two As, and then a hill. So that's the ultimate, the ultimate thing. Then I don't remember how I met Meryl Goldberg exactly, I can't recall. But she's the one who said, "You know, you should write a Luann musical." I said, "I should?" Okay. Well, when I was a kid, I took piano for about a year-and-a-half and hated it and quit. And I wish I hadn't, but I, you know, I can kind of find notes and chords a little bit. So I thought, well, I don't know, maybe I could write some songs, and I could certainly write a script. I mean, it's what I do anyway. So I took a bunch of actual "Luann" gags and situations from the strip and sort of wove 'em together into "Scenes in a Teen's Life" idea for a musical. And it was put on by Rancho Buena Vista High School, over at the California Center for the Arts. We did it there and turned out really nicely. So yeah, that was, I think, sort of my start with the relationship there. And then, I think it's when the art building opened. Yeah, the art building had opened-- 00:43:49.936 --> 00:43:50.815 --the Arts Council? 00:43:50.815 --> 00:44:02.014 and I think that's where maybe I met Meryl there at that. So anyway, kind of got involved with all of that. And then the, you know, the fundraisers and-- 00:44:02.014 --> 00:44:09.114 I think some of it, I would imagine, overlaps with mom's connections in San Marcos. 00:44:09.114 --> 00:44:09.795 The university? 00:44:09.795 --> 00:44:13.255 Is that how some of that would overlap? 00:44:13.255 --> 00:44:30.614 I think they're a little bit separate. My wife Betty was on the city council and ran for mayor. And then she was on the Vallecitos Board, uh, Water District Board. So we've had deep connections here in the city. 00:44:30.614 --> 00:44:41.164 I was just thinking if she would've been part of connections with Cal State because I know she was as a city council person like involved in why the university got to be here and-- 00:44:41.164 --> 00:44:55.235 Yeah, I don't know, a little. She certainly was there when the city hall was built. Mom was part of that whole thing, so, yeah. 00:44:55.235 --> 00:45:04.594 What about, so you mentioned that you had written the "Luann" musical, "Luann the Musical." You have written some other plays too, right? 00:45:04.594 --> 00:46:02.000 Yeah. So that one was kind of fun to do. I mean, I didn't realize that nobody writes a musical. But, you know, I have my little keyboard, and I use a program called Garage Band. So you can layer in sounds and drum lines and this basic stuff, and I write these little songs, and then I hire a guy to do the arranging so that a band, you know, can play these things. So yeah. I wrote a "Luann" show, and then I wrote one called "Wrinkles" about getting old, and it premiered, I think at the Lawrence Welk Theater. Appropriate. "A Boy and a Girl," about two infants born on the same day. And then their relationship as they grow older. And Sibling, uh-- 00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.364 "Quibbling Siblings." 00:46:03.364 --> 00:46:09.045 "Quibbling Siblings," which is about a brother and a sister who do nothing but argue all the time. 00:46:09.045 --> 00:46:10.105 Okay. 00:46:10.105 --> 00:46:20.315 And those have all been put on locally. And a few places have done the "Luann," it's available beyond just like the local networks. And so there are places that have put on-- 00:46:20.315 --> 00:46:40.045 Yeah, "Luann" got picked up by a publisher, and it's out there, and it's probably been done, I don't know, twenty times over the years. "Wrinkles" is also with a publisher, but it's never been, she never managed to get it produced. And the other two are sitting on my computer. 00:46:40.045 --> 00:46:43.485 I did get to see "A Boy and a Girl"--at the Patio? 00:46:43.485 --> 00:46:44.071 Yes. 00:46:44.071 --> 00:46:46.125 Oh, at Patio. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:46:46.125 --> 00:46:49.295 I want to say maybe it was 2019. It was right before Covid. 00:46:49.295 --> 00:47:09.324 Right before Covid. Our scale for everything--before or after Covid. Yeah. "A Boy and a Girl" was fun 'cause that one, we got to--so before Dad wrote a musical, there was a "Luann" musical created by someone else in early nineties? Late eighties? 00:47:09.324 --> 00:47:10.525 The late eighties, probably. 00:47:10.525 --> 00:48:09.954 Late eighties. And the young woman who played Luann locally in the eighties grew up to be a very successful actress and performer here locally. And, came on and directed and developed "A Boy and a Girl." So that was kind of a cool roundabout thing. Like this person who, it's not like there was some deep connection back from the eighties, but over time, turns out, here's Bets showing up in our lives. Back again. And helping develop "A Boy and a Girl." And that got staged in the garage here for the first production. You gotta' figure out all the staging and how do you block this and what do we do and let's rehearse it. 'Cause it's, that was pretty cool. I thought that was cool. I got to stage direct, so I learned what that means. And I was like, this is a lot of work. (Laughter) 00:48:09.954 --> 00:48:17.644 Well you think writing a comic strip is hard. Try writing a good musical and it's really hard. 00:48:17.644 --> 00:48:30.284 I have to go back to the robot and ask about the robot. How did that come about? Did you build the robot? Did you, how did that come about? And you said that you donated it to CSUSM? 00:48:30.284 --> 00:50:31.284 Yes, I did. Okay. Yes. When my wife and I were both, went to school and got degrees to be school teachers. So, my first job was out in El Centro. I was a school teacher, and Betty was in Merced. She was a school teacher. We got married, we were in El Centro. I think it was Betty who saw a notice about Australia, shortage of teachers down there. They're getting Americans to come down and teach. We signed up, We got accepted, and Betty and I taught in Australia for two years. Came home. Now what? And I found out I'm not a good teacher. I didn't really enjoy it. Betty's awesome. I'm not that good. what should I do? Well, we ended up, for some reason in Colorado Springs, we ended up there. Oh, I know. There was a possible teaching job for me there, which didn't pan out. Oh-oh, now what? Well then there was an opening at a local TV station for a part-time, split-shift job running the camera for the evening news. So I would go in, yeah. So I would go in and stand at the camera with the headphones on for half an hour at five o'clock for that one. And then go home and then come back for the nine o'clock, do the same thing, and aim the camera and stand there and then go home. And that's what I did there. The station that I worked for, for some reason, decided to buy a robot. It was built by a guy there locally, and this is what he did. He sold these little R2-D2 kind of robots 'cause Star Wars was huge. So the station bought one, and they needed someone to run this thing. Because it is like a RC car, a little radio-controlled thing. And I had a van and they said, "Greg, why don't you go ahead and run this robot around?" 00:50:31.284 --> 00:50:33.083 It was like a promotional idea. 00:50:33.083 --> 00:53:28.000 It was a promotional thing. Yeah. So, I would go out with this little robot and show up at different events, you know, to promote the station. That's what I did. And I found out, oh, I'm pretty good at this. I'm not an actor, I'm not a performer, I'm not a comedian, but put me behind the scenes, and I can do okay. So standing in the crowd with a little microphone and saying funny stuff, and it's coming out over there, and the robot is moving and interacting with the crowd. That was perfect for my nature. That suited me very well. And I did a good job at it. And we had been wanting to come back to California. We really missed--we were--Betty and I were both natives, and we had the kids in Colorado Springs and we were, let's go. So packed up, bought a robot of our own from this guy, and landed here in San Diego and thought, okay, here we go. What do I do? So I started just going to the local malls, and I'd go around with this robot and bit by bit, I got contracts to come back and do things and do that. And so I was at Seaport Village every weekend for years, and I was at the San Diego Zoo entertaining the lines of people, while they were waiting to go in. I did the California State Fair. I did a lot of corporate events and parties and all just tons of stuff. I was really busy to the point where I, I bought a second robot thinking I could franchise this thing and find someone, you know, to run the other (robot). Well, that's hard. You need someone who's basically unemployed because your gigs come up all the time, and who has a van and who has a strong back and could lift this robot? So the franchise idea didn't go anywhere. I just always wanted to be a cartoonist, anyway. Thank goodness that got going. Yeah. Then I retired MaXwel, and Meryl said--you know--Meryl, she's always got an idea. "Well, you know, maybe you could donate it to the University. We could find someone who would run it and he would represent the ARTES program. And so he would go to schools and promote art and maybe we have an assistant who goes with him and together they're doing"--you know, she had all these ideas, and they got a van. And I made a wrap to go on this van that had MaXwel and then all this kind of artsy sort of things all over the van. And I had lost track of whatever became of that program. I don't know. Yeah. So that Max, I have two robots. That MaXwel is, I don't know where, and the other one is in our shed-- 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:29.000 You still have-- 00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.000 in a box. Ready to go.. 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:33.784 Maybe that's what I should be learning to do. 00:53:33.784 --> 00:53:35.074 You should. Yeah. 00:53:35.074 --> 00:53:36.744 I'll follow your career. But in reverse. 00:53:36.744 --> 00:53:39.644 Can you grow a beard? It is helpful to have the beard. 00:53:39.644 --> 00:53:44.000 Beard is helpful. I'll look into that. There's some sort of injections, I'm sure. 00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:48.715 Something. Hormones (Laughter) 00:53:48.715 --> 00:53:57.945 Okay. Well after forty years of blood, sweat, and tears, what is the future of "Luann?" 00:53:57.945 --> 00:54:00.204 Future of Luann? 00:54:00.204 --> 00:54:06.704 Mmm. 00:54:06.704 --> 00:54:10.835 Keep going. That's it. That's it. I don't know. We're-- 00:54:10.835 --> 00:54:12.474 You have a huge family legacy. 00:54:12.474 --> 00:54:25.425 Yeah. We love what we do. He loves what he does. It's all he ever wanted to do, and he gets to do it. And I think working together has kept it interesting. 00:54:25.425 --> 00:54:46.945 Yeah. At this point I thought I'd be phoning it in, you know, but it's engaging and fun more than ever because of working together. And as long as newspapers survive or the internet can keep things going, and there's an income to be made, I'll keep doing it until I keel over. 00:54:46.945 --> 00:55:39.750 Yeah. (Greg mimics coughing) Oh, stop it! (Laughter) So that's the idea. And then, who knows? Like we've toyed with various spinoff or add-on ideas with, you know, when graphic novels came onto the scene, there was a lot of, you know, we should do a "Luann" graphic novel. Or, you know, Brad and Toni should spin off into their own comic strip, or more than once, there's been efforts and some traction on a "Luann" TV show of some kind. But that relies on Hollywood, which is the most unreliable planet on the planet. And, we've talked about ideas for, you know, extra material or content that our really hardcore fans would genuinely feel excited to, you know, subscribe to or purchase things or, I don't know if you wanna show them Puddles. (Gestures to plastic model of the "Luann" dog, Puddles) This is a random, there's a group here in North County of cartoonist-type creative people that get together just for fun. And one of the gentlemen is a very talented sculptor. He comes from the automotive industry, and in his retirement, was kind of looking for a new way to do something interesting and creative and decided let's do a "Luann" thing. And this is a 3D-printed project that six months, seven months? 00:55:39.750 --> 00:56:16.000 Yeah. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:38.885 Been such a cool thing watching, watching Dad get to like try to envision these characters in three dimensions and work with Tony on how do you translate the back of Luann's head, or what's the scale of all of this when, you know? When you're drawing it, it stays a pretty consistent scale, but actually mathematically to set-- 00:56:38.885 --> 00:56:52.764 You can, when you're drawing, you know, you can, I can cheat, but what dog from the back has their eyeballs sticking up like that? (Laughter) No. Where's the eyelids? 00:56:52.764 --> 00:56:57.164 So who knows? Who knows what we'll-- 00:56:57.164 --> 00:57:35.224 "Luann" has never been a real licensable character or intellectual property as far as T-shirts or clothing or stuff like that. You know, not, it's not a "Peanuts," "Garfield" kind of a cute thing that you can dress up or stuff like that. So we've never really had anything like that. Books for a while, and then they're not really doing books much anymore of comic strip collections. So that's sort of gone to the side. So, really just focusing on doing the best strip we can do every single day 'cause we owe it to the readers. 00:57:35.224 --> 00:57:36.045 That's true. 00:57:36.045 --> 00:57:37.804 Yeah. That's our job. 00:57:37.804 --> 00:57:39.465 Yep. 00:57:39.465 --> 00:57:50.594 Is there anything else that you would like to cover in today's interview? Anything that we missed? 00:57:50.594 --> 00:58:31.994 I just have to say that for such a strange career, it has opened doors and opportunities beyond imagination. Just creative people that we've met, or connections that we've been able to make, opportunities because we have flexibility. As a kid growing up, I have such an appreciation now the longer I go into my adult life, that I had parents, who were able to very bravely pursue kind of risky things like robots and cartooning, but stuck with it and made it work. And-- 00:58:31.994 --> 00:58:41.784 Yeah. My parents were like, hold on, five years of college to be a teacher, and now you're gonna go be a--run a robot? 00:58:41.784 --> 00:58:43.304 What? 00:58:43.304 --> 00:58:45.505 What? Gregory what are you thinking? 00:58:45.505 --> 00:59:05.385 Yeah. And then I think the community, just the cartooning community, our fan community, the creative community, and then the community that you guys, in particular, having been here and raised a family here, built with San Marcos as a home base. Like you've said, all of "Luann" has come from San Marcos. 00:59:05.385 --> 00:59:26.364 Yeah. Yeah, it has. That's and what a great place to live, you know, I mean, doing this job that you can live any anywhere. And so why not pick a gorgeous place to live? And I forgot to mention the exhibit at, at the library, too, the "Luann" exhibit. 00:59:26.364 --> 00:59:32.144 I had a question about it, but I--You didn't always know that Luann would go to college. 00:59:32.144 --> 00:59:34.000 That's true. 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:38.505 Right, and so how, "how did that come to be?" was my question. 00:59:38.505 --> 01:01:40.824 How did Luann come to college? Well, so she started out at thirteen, and it was his decision to turn her sixteen. And I think that was because she had stopped being thirteen over--I wrote this up, I looked it up at some point. I feel like she was thirteen for like thirteen years. And after that it was kinda like, she's outgrown this and at sixteen, she could start to drive. So that might open up some new opportunities. So she was sixteen for another dozen some years. And right at the time that I came in, my version of the story, and then you can tell your version of the story, but my version of the story is when I started working, you were feeling kind of burned out. Like you'd been telling teen high school drama stories for at that point, you know, twenty-four years or whatever. And just were kinda' what else do we do with it? And these characters are, we've done all the dynamics over and over in different ways. And that was part of where the conversation of, Well, what if we bump them to college? What would that look like, and how would we do it? And that was an interesting decision in the sense that "Luann" doesn't move in any sort of structured like time frame. It's not this many years of "Luann" is equal to this many human real life years. But we recognized when we decided to graduate her that her senior year had to move in real time. Like you can't just sort of weirdly linger in your senior year indefinitely and be like, oh, my final prom again. So that was kind of, that was kind of crazy. That's the only time "Luann" has really moved in real time is that one year of senior year of high school. And then we had to do a lot of specific planning for what--we only have 365 days of comics. So what core events happened in that senior year? So that was my version of it. 01:01:40.824 --> 01:01:58.284 And what do we do with the characters? Because they had all been in this nice, neat package at this school. Right. The teachers, Mr. Fogarty, everybody's right there. Well, are they all gonna' graduate and go to the very same college? Wouldn't that be-- 01:01:58.284 --> 01:01:58.695 Wouldn't that be great? 01:01:58.695 --> 01:02:14.244 A coincidence? Well, that's not gonna happen. Of course not. So some went to the junior college like Luann did, some went to the university, and about five characters sort of just left the strip and-- 01:02:14.244 --> 01:02:15.813 They moved on with their lives, really. 01:02:15.813 --> 01:02:30.474 Yeah. And new characters came in. So it was a big adjustment. So now we have different universes in the strip that are happening at the same time, but don't maybe necessarily overlap. So it's a little more of a challenge, I think. 01:02:30.474 --> 01:02:31.268 Yeah. 01:02:31.268 --> 01:02:31.664 To write. 01:02:31.664 --> 01:03:56.000 And that's where you think sometimes I feel like, when I came along. I am, I tend to think much more complex than what fits into a comic strip. So I have to work hard to dial things down. But yeah, moving them out into college and making hard decisions--like the core of "Luann" for so many years was Luann and her two best friends with Bernice and Delta. But when we started thinking about it, going back to characters telling you what's gonna' happen to them, there was no way--Delta was so driven and global and passionate. We just couldn't see her staying at her hometown university. And so she's, she's currently off at Howard doing amazing things, I'm sure. But it was such a shocking thing to think about splitting up these three core characters and yeah. Yeah. Like how do you, how do we, what? But that Delta just genuinely wasn't going to be sticking around town. So she's out, maybe she'll show up someday and tell us what she's been doing. But awesome things, I'm sure. 01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:05.224 And just for those listening, we're referring to an exhibit that was done at the CSUSM Library called "Luann Goes to College" (actually titled "Luann's Journey to College). 01:04:05.224 --> 01:05:30.014 Yes. So that was a cool experience, 'cause it was neat to, we put together strips that kind of show this evolution of "Luann" going from my high school self preparing and going into college and to have that showcased on a university campus I thought was particularly special because even if you're a transfer student, that's just a fresh experience for you. And being a freshman in particular is such a strange stage in life of being like, I'm an adult and I'm out doing my thing, but I don't feel fully like an adult. And I think nineteen--eighteen and nineteen--nineteen is the most interesting to me because you are still a teen. You're nineteen, you're a teenager, but you're eighteen-nineteen, like you're an adult. You've kind of gone out on your own, but you're not fully figuring it all out by nineteen for most people. And then you haven't hit the all-important twenty-one. So your social life is still, you can't access anything that's twenty-one and up, whether you choose to drink or not. But just there's, there's activities that aren't available to you. So this is like weird little limbo land. Being like a teen-adult. So yeah, that was a neat exhibit to put together. 01:05:30.014 --> 01:05:30.585 Well. 01:05:30.585 --> 01:05:40.655 Yeah, we've always had a great relationship with the university, and we really appreciate it. Yeah. And it's really an honor to be asked to be part of this oral history. 01:05:40.655 --> 01:05:53.744 Well I just wan to thank you so much today for sharing your creativity, your passion, your relationship. I think it's really beautiful the way that you two work together and collaborate. 01:05:53.744 --> 01:05:58.784 Our matching shirts. Yep. Mom got us these for Christmas, so we thought it would be good to wear them today. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EvansGreg_and_Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml EvansGreg_and Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview March 25, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Greg Evans and Karen Evans, March 25, 2025. Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. Greg received an Honorary Doctorate of Fine Arts from CSU San Marcos in 2016. Karen Evans is also the newly elected president of the National Cartoonists Society. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-075 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Evans and Karen Evans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Cartooning -- Technique Comic strip characters Luann. Selections Comic books, strips, etc. Cartoonist Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) El Centro (Calif.) Merced (Calif.) Australia Colorado Springs (Co.) San Diego (Calif.)  Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a class="Hyperlink SCXW191720648 BCX0" href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Greg Evans Karen Evans Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Art and artists Community history Women's experience