6 10 91 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marilyn McWilliams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Black Student Center OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 McWilliams, Marilyn. Interview April 5th, 2021. SC027-09 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Black Student Center Black experience Office of Inclusive Excellence Marilyn McWilliams Sierra Jenkins moving image McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93959df71a6dacc7ab6c495d62947c4d.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood McWilliams discusses being raised in Oakland and her early school and family life. They were the first Black family in their neighborhood. Oakland ; middle class ; Oakland Hills 0 277 Path to employment at California State University San Marcos McWilliams talks about the importance of education in her family and the life circumstances and choices that led her to working at California State University San Marcos. education ; civil service ; Associate degree 0 567 Learning about Black history and the Black experience, from childhood to adulthood McWilliams' father played a key role in her experience of Blackness. This was heavily based on their interaction with predominantly white people and focused on equality. jazz ; equality ; imposter syndrome 0 1010 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements McWilliams speaks about how her role in the Office of Inclusive Excellence has made her aware of the current state of racism and inequity. Black Lives Matter 0 1240 Role in the creation of the Black Student Center McWilliams reflects on how her early support of Black students played into the creation of the Black Student Center. students 0 1600 Previous efforts to establish the Black Student Center Marilyn outlines the development of student identity centers on campus. She also reflects on the student leaders who accomplished the approved proposal for the Black Student Center. multicultural center ; Cross-cultural Center ; Latinx Center ; student leaders ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; pushback 0 1991 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes McWilliams speaks in more detail about the student leaders and others who worked tirelessly on the creation of the Black Student Center. Black Student Union ; Associated Students, Incorporated 0 2200 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation McWilliams discusses how students need to see more Black faculty, staff, and administrators on campus. cluster hire ; representation 0 2445 Pushback to the creation of the Black Student Center McWilliams reflects on pushback from students to the creation of the Black Student Center. pushback 0 2551 The Black Student Center Grand Opening and McWilliams' first visit to the BSC after opening McWilliams discusses her pride in experiencing the opening of the Black Student Center and her happiness for the students. Her hope is that the space can be expanded over time. pride ; students ; inadequate space ; Anthony Jett, Sr. ; University Student Union 0 2935 Early focus of the BSC's initiatives, programming, events McWilliams discusses how Black Student Center events focused on bringing Black history and education to campus. Kwanzaa ; Tulsa Race Massacre ; Black women ; Black Panthers 0 3148 The move from Student Success to Student Life McWilliams comments on the history of the organizational structure surrounding the student identity centers including the Black Student Center. student life ; student affairs ; Associated Students, Incorporated 0 3319 Achieving the purpose of the Black Student Center and future needs McWilliams states that growth is still needed for the Black Student Center to achieve its purpose including more space, support, and staffing. space ; staff 0 3460 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on McWilliams McWilliams talks about how to continue moving the Black Student Center program forward. events ; duplication 0 3577 Expectations for the future of the Black Student Center McWilliams discusses her expectations for the new director, John Rawlins III, especially once campus is re-opened post Covid closure. She reflects on the student experience during the Covid closure and virtual learning. John Rawlins III ; Covid ; virtual learning 0 3837 Developing an understanding of Blackness McWilliams talks about coming to her understanding of Blackness during an incident with her son in elementary school. Blackness ; motherhood ; son 0 4269 Final thoughts about the Black Student Center and the Black Faculty/Staff Association &#13 ; McWilliams reflects on her time as president of the African-American Faculty Staff Association (now Black Faculty Staff Association) at California State University San Marcos. Black Faculty Staff Association ; African-American Faculty Staff Association ; outgoing 0 Oral history Marilyn McWilliams retired after 23 years at California State University San Marcos, where she most recently was the Administrative Assistant for the Office of Inclusive Excellence. McWilliams has been particularly active in advocacy and assistance to underrepresented communities on campus, and has been recognized by the Black Student Union at their awards night, named a Civility Champion, and received the Jonathan Pollard Award for social justice through student affairs. In her interview, McWilliams gives an in-depth account of her Black Experience starting with her childhood. McWilliams considers her childhood connection to education and how that led her to an administrative role at California State University San Marcos. McWilliams also discusses the CSUSM Black Student Center, her function in a supportive capacity, and the important role students' advocacy played in the creation of the Center. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Today is Monday, April 5th, 2021, at 3:02 p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Marilyn McWilliams for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Marilyn, thank you for being here with me today. 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Thank you, Miss Sierra, for having me. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:38.000 Of course. So we're going to just jump right into it, the questions. First one I have is where were you born? And where did you grow up? 00:00:38.000 --> 00:01:03.000 I was born in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, but I was raised in Oakland, California. We moved to California when I was six, six years old. So I was raised in Northern California. In the last 23 years I've been here in Southern Cal. 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.000 So interesting. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:19.000 And when you think about that, Sierra, that is like full circle. O, Oklahoma to Oakland. And now I reside in Oceanside. Full circle. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:30.000 Really? That really is full circle (laughs). It was meant to be. So tell me about your childhood growing up in Oakland. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:03:38.000 I had a pretty good childhood, growing up. I think we moved to California for better opportunities. My father had graduated from Langston University in Oklahoma and moved the family. I'm the baby of four. And actually, I'm sorry, I'm the baby of five. I found out I had another sister in Oklahoma. She's in Oklahoma, but my father moved the four of us and my mother here, to California for better opportunity. He got a job at a high school, Castlemont High in Oakland. And for me, that's when I started school. I started kindergarten and at the age of six in Oakland and I had a pretty good childhood, never wanted for anything. I considered myself basically growing up middle-class and that was very important for a Black family during that time and when we did move out here, nothing but the best for my father. We moved to the Hills, Oakland Hills and we, I can't say if we were the first Black family in our neighborhood, but if we wasn't the first, we were the second, ‘cause it wasn't many of us in my neighborhood growing up. But I think that my childhood prepared me for you know, what was ahead. My mother worked in civil service and my father in education and, like I said, I've never wanted for anything. And, I had a very good foundation. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:44.000 How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? 00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:17.000 Ooh. That's a, that's a pretty deep question. Me. Okay. How did that come to my understanding of Blackness? Let me think on that one. Let's come back to that one, Sierra. Cause that kind of took me off guard. Let me kinda’— 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Okay. Not a problem. Let me see what it said. And your childhood, what were you taught about in your childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? 00:04:36.000 --> 00:09:17.000 I was taught that we could be anything that we wanted to be. I was taught that education was very, very important in order to get to where you want it to be. School was drilled in us. Like I said, my father was in education. I think it was drilled in us so much so that I wanted to steer away from it. It was just, my father made us like homework, whether or not you have homework in that particular, especially when you got to like junior high, we, back then we had elementary, junior high, then high school, junior high started at ninth grade. Am I aging myself? Cause that's not it now. Junior high started at ninth grade and you had like different classes, six classes. And I remember my father was like it doesn't matter if you have homework in that particular class that night you bringing all your books, all five of your books home and you're going to be studying. So, I know that for me, school wasn't—it was important, but for me it was, I’m kind of over it. So by the time I graduated high school, I knew I had to go to college, but I didn't want to. And so I started working, and I went to a junior college directly out of high school, and I completed one year and then I had a car accident and I took a year off. And once I did that, it was like, who wants to go back? But I did. I went back and I got my AA (Associate of Arts). That was it. In that time, I had fell in love, met this man and fell in love and going away, like out of state to college or anything like that—it just was not in the cards for me. I got my AA. We're talking about back in the early eighties. I think that was ‘81. And it's like, I'm set. I got my degree. I'm set. So I started out on the work field and like I said, my mother worked in civil service, and she had worked there and retired after 25 years. And I said, I could do that. So I got me a civil service job and I said, this is where I'm going to, I can do this. I'm good. And until, did 13 years there until the base closed, and then it's like, oh my God, now, what am I going to do? So the best thing for me to do was to try to get back in college, but I still wasn't feeling it, you know, and I ended up moving here, and remarried, and during that time I had divorced my husband, but I remarried, and I moved down here and after a year down here, I lucked up and got a job at Cal State San Marcos. They had just opened up the Early Learning Center, the first childcare center on campus. So I started working there and when I started working there, it was working as a—just coming in to get the books up and running for the Early Learning Center, and it was an eight-week position. I was hired knowing that it was only a temporary position, that eight-week present position. But after my eight weeks was over, the program director at that time felt the need that they needed someone longer. So then that's where my career at Cal State San Marcos began, and I’m very fortunate to say, 23 years later, I'm still here. What turned out to be an eight-week position into that being 23 years for me and I'm very thankful for that. But I think I detoured from the question you asked me, what was I answering, Sierra? I'm sorry. 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:26.000 No problem. That was really interesting. I was asking about, how, what was your taught experience about Black history, experience? 00:09:26.000 --> 00:12:13.000 Yes, my, like I said, my dad's in education, so we were taught and he actually was a musician. He played the saxophone, so, jazz, listening to jazz was like, you know pretty good, but as far as we were taught that we were just as good as everyone. And by my father being in education he was surrounded by whites. So you know, things, parties and things that he would have at the house, it will be a mixture. So I've always seen a mixture, and everyone should be treated equal. And we were just as good as the next person. So I was taught that you don't— such a cliche, you know—you don't see color, but you know that it's there. You know that others look at you differently. The high school that I went to was predominantly white, predominantly, because of the neighborhood that I lived in and where we went, and it's just like, if now I go, I look back at that high school and it's predominantly Black is like, what a difference generations make, where people start, more Black people started moving towards the Hills moving in the Hills, so like I said, we were one of the first, if not the first in our neighborhood, but most, more started moving and in today's this like—and I think that when I be talking, I don't know where I be going, but I probably steered away from that question again, so I think I need to just leave it there. My parents really did instill the importance in us that we can do and be anything that our hearts desire. But for me back then, all I wanted to do was be a housewife and a mother. I wanted babies. I wanted to be, but I also knew that you needed, you need it more in order to sustain. So. 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:34.000 That's really interesting. And you mentioned how, right after you finished high school, you went to junior college and then you were in the workforce for a bit. During that time, did you learn anything new or different about the Black experience or about being Black yourself? 00:12:34.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Not me personally, no, because me growing up as a child, I never had to struggle or want for anything. So, I never felt that for me personally, I never felt that. And I think my type of, I don't know, probably because of how I raised, because my mother was such an outgoing person, I never felt unwanted. I never felt as if when I walked into the room I wasn't wanted there. But I've always been a somewhat shy type of person, so I never wanted to be the person to stand out, but yet still, I always ended up being the person that stands, that stood out because I think, because I was loud and always wanted to make someone smile, you know, just, I wanted to bring joy. And then I would find myself being like the center of attention that I never ever, ever, ever wanted, but it always ended up like that. And then I'll walk away and say, how did I just do that? But I've never, ever felt unwanted or, not or looked upon as someone less than. I never felt that in my life, even working at Cal State San Marcos, at a university. I did feel—that's sometimes inadequate in parts, partly because I only had an AA and here I am working at an institution, a four-year institution where degrees were so important. Bachelors, masters, doctorates, you know, so important, but even working there I still never had that desire to go on. And probably because of my experience, I still was able to be me, if that makes sense. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000 It does. 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:59.000 I felt, I think sometimes I did feel less than because I only had an AA, but that AA didn't really define me if that makes sense? 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:05.000 Yes. So kind of felt like imposter syndrome type thing? 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.000 Probably. Yeah. Why am I here? 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:10.000 Yeah. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:21.000 I deserve to be here, too, but do I? But I'm still here. So I guess, yes, yes. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:46.000 Yeah. That's actually a great segue into our next question. How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:16:46.000 --> 00:19:10.000 It. How has it affected me? It affected me in a way that it's sad to see the world in the state that it is in right now. Especially with everything that's going on now. Like I said, all of that was not part of my upbringing or who I am as a person. And I guess I must've always just surrounded myself around individuals that didn't feel the way, like some, like a lot of people out there are feeling social justice, Black Lives Matter. Especially working in the department that I work in. We get, I work in the Office of Inclusive Excellence, and we get a lot, you know, inequity things that are happening on campus with our people. But how did it affect me? Oh. Affects me to the point of will it ever end? It’s, I don't understand it. I don't understand. And I know, you know, why can't people see us all as humans? We're all human, everyone has their own experiences, their own—okay, Sierra, I need to articulate that a little better. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.000 You’re doing, you’re doing good. 00:19:13.000 --> 00:20:22.000 And it's like, how did it affect me? I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how it affected me. Maybe, I don't know. It's sad. It's sad to see. It hurts me to see how a lot of people, I know people that don't know how a lot of people are treated. It’s sad for me to see how – not sad. It's, it's like, I don't understand how, well I guess I do understand because it's how people are raised. But I don't understand how people can look at an individual and just think that they're not worthy to be here to occupy this space, to offer input or, I don't know. I think I'm just rambling. So, let's go to the next one. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:23.000 Okay. 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000 That one stumped me. 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:41.000 (Laughs) It is another deep one. This one goes more towards your experience at San Marcos specifically. What role did you play in the creation of the BSC? 00:20:41.000 --> 00:26:10.000 Not much of a role. I understood the students. I understood their need and desire to have space of their own. And since I, I think since I started working, working there, I think the way that I found my calling, because remember I stated earlier how I pretty much felt somewhat inadequate because I only had an AA. So working there when I first started, I started off in the Early Learning Center with the little babies and as the admin person working in the Early Learning Center, which was very, so fulfilling. Then you get, I got to meet a lot of the students because they will bring their children there and I worked there for about five years, and when a position opened up at the Associated Students (Incorporated, student government) office, working with the board of directors, an admin position opened up there, I applied for it, and I got it. So then I moved into that position. So now I'm around students, all kinds of students, and they're the ones that's pretty much running the association. And they're technically like our bosses, but, you know, the staff is there to make sure that they're doing everything according to code, Title IX policy and all of that, but they were technically our bosses. I found my calling during that particular time because I felt more of a mother figure to the students and the Black students really kind of cultivated towards me. Like I said, I don't know, sometimes I’m like the loud one in the room. I'm making them feel kind of like a home. I'm like that mother figure, like: what are you doing in here? Shouldn't you be in class or, you know offer things that way where a lot of my other colleagues would offer advice on this is the class you should take, or you know upper division, lower division, all of that type, this is the path that you need to go, or in order to graduate, these are the things, and my role was totally different, you know. Take care of you and make sure you're eating. Did you have lunch today? Or you know just things like that. So that kind of like mother away from home type of situation. So I found myself that way. So I think the students felt, I think they felt that way also because they always came to me, and I've always had an open-door policy no matter where I was, where students can come. So I got their, I understood their need. Ever since I've been there, the Black student, faculty and staff was at 3%, you know, always at 3% at our university and that's not a high number. So it's like, how do we get more and more students? But in order to get students, you want to have faculty that students want to go into a classroom where they have faculty that looks like them. And so, I got that a lot. So the need for them to have their space was very important. And as far as like playing a role, I was that listening ear. So I would listen and I can, I would be able to advise some: well, you know, have you tried, have you talked to such and such, have you did this, have you did that? And then when you get those students that are outspoken and it's like, no, we need action! We need, we need this, we need that, I'm there with my colleagues to help them navigate that. So my role wasn't big, but it was there. It was big enough, if that makes sense. 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:38.000 Definitely. It sounds like you're the moral support, probably the push sometimes people needed to hear. Since you definitely were an ear to students prior to the creation of the BSC (Black Student) Center had you heard a previous like previous push for the center before the one that, that, allowed it to be created this time? 00:26:38.000 --> 00:32:51.000 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Students wanted that. And then, you know, there's no space, so there's no space on campus. Which came first? We got the Multicultural Center, which ended up being the, the multicultural center and that ended up being the Cross-Cultural Center and that on our campus kind of like predominantly, it (was) designed to be for all, but it ended up being more of our Asian, Pacific Islander Desi, it ended up being kind of like the center where a lot of our Asian students kind of like gravitated to. And then I think we got the, the Latin /x Center after that, which ended up being a very small area. But then we got some very outspoken, I mean, even before the (Black Student) Center did become, even before the center five years ago, we got some very outspoken students that would not take no for an answer and demanded the president, where it was so much so, they had help from others, not me as far as like writing the proposal and all of that, more my other colleagues that had their master’s (laughs), their degrees and stuff, to help them put all of that together to bring to the president. I think my role was small, but I think it was, it was there. And I was very proud of them. Very proud of them for how they went about it. At one point as—I do want to mention that I did end up after 14 years with ASI, Associated Students (Incorporated), I did get the position when we first opened our diversity office on campus. Diversity, Educational Equity, and Inclusion was the office that opened up in July 20, no July, where are we? 2021? July 2011, when that office first opened up and then I applied for an admin position there and I got that in November 2011. So when that office opened up, it opened up a more direct avenue for the students to advocate for the space, and our office helped. But my part was just being there to be supportive in any way that I could. And right now, if I was to list those to you, I couldn't even tell you what they were but I do know that with—that's where I was going—see how I'm just going all over the place? I do know that within ASI, it was the very first time that ASI had an all-color female executive board. So we had a Black female for president, a Black female for executive—I forgot what the titles were, a Black female for the diversity rep, and like a Latina female for the vice president of something. So all the execs were females of color. And I do want to say that that year was really, they did so much, but they got so much pushback. And it was really sad to see that. They was, you know, all strong women. I'm hoping that some of them are part of this interview. Naturally they're great. They've graduated, but they were in our office all the time because of how, because of how they were being treated. So I know that when, if they are in the interview, their experience at Cal State San Marcos way different, because they got so much pushback and it was like, they couldn't do it, but they did some amazing work. Amazing. And it was during that particular board when the president decided that yes, we do need a (Black Student) Center. So I don't even know if I answered that question and let me apologize to you right now because I noticed sometimes I hear one and then I start saying something that I may be, so I don't know. I know that you're recording. So if you have the capacity to like, okay, she wasn't making no sense, you know, cut! You know, I have no problem with that because I'm probably just going off on a tangent, like I am now. So I’m gonna’ be quiet. 00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:08.000 No, that's totally fine. You answered the question perfectly and then actually it actually goes into the next one. Cause it sounds like those women were kind of like unsung heroes that maybe not everyone knows about when it comes to the BSC. 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Absolutely. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.000 Yeah. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Absolutely. Like I said, I truly hope that they are part of the interview process. I believe the director, well, I did reach out to one of the students that I'm hoping that the director of the BSC has contacted her, but I do hope that these students are part of this interview process because I know that they will be able to share a lot of information, especially from the student perspective. 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:58.000 Yeah. Who are the different leaders that like spearheaded the BSC project? 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000 The different leaders? 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:11.000 Yeah. Like who were the main people you would say advocated or were central to creating the Black Student Center? 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Oh the students definitely, the BSU, the Black Student Union president at the time. And not just the president, but the Black Student Union student organization, a lot of the students there, as well as the execs in the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board of directors. So the—I'm sorry, I just, I just saw your cat and my mind—No, no, no, it's not you it's like, Ooh, she has a cat. I'm sorry, Sierra (laughs). 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:05.000 You’re totally fine! I was surprised they've been good this long, this far in (laughs). 00:35:05.000 --> 00:36:20.000 But the students definitely, I would say definitely they are the main ones too, that make, and they wasn't even here wh- oh yeah. When we opened the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board, they were graduating, but some of the students from the Black Student Union student organization wasn't even here for the opening (of the Black Student Center). They had, you know, they had since left. They wasn't even here for the opening to the, to see that. But the ASI, the ASI executive board were. So I'm thankful for that because I'm thinking about the opening now. And the three of them were there at that, but I will say the students were the main force, but they had help. They had help from some faculty. We have our Sharon, Dr. Sharon Elise at the time. Dilcie Perez, Ariel Stevenson, a lot of the faculty and staff, they were there to help support them, but it was mainly a student effort. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:37.000 Okay. That also leads into the next question. What did staff faculty, and especially students, since they were central to this, that were involved in the creation of the BSC, what did they feel they needed? 00:36:37.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Ooh. They needed. I know that a few of my colleagues were able to help with the proposal. Would that be a proposal? The writing, you know, the letter to the president, I know that a lot of the, a lot of my colleagues were able to assist with that. The letter, to get it to the president's office and, and make sure that it was in a… format. If that's the word I'm looking or a different word, but format, that would be looked at and not just pushed to the side, you know it, that made in such a way that, okay, we can't like, not just ignore this. So. That wasn't even your question. What was your question again? 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:06.000 You're answering it. What did the students feel they needed? And you were saying how the letters they were getting helped with that sort of thing. 00:38:06.000 --> 00:39:38.000 Yeah. And they needed to, they needed to know and needed to feel that what they were asking for was something that was needed and not just—something that was really needed and not just: we're asking just to be asking. And they needed that for them, you know? And there's more, and that's why now we're into cluster hire, because even the Black Student Center has been here for five years, going on five years, and we still are not where we should be at with faculty hiring, administrative hiring for the African Americans, you know, for the Blacks. We, there's definitely more that needs to be done, but that was a step in the right direction. But there's still more that needs to be done. 00:39:38.000 --> 00:40:01.000 Yeah. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You mentioned it was more students. So what maybe what was their, what did they communicate? Was there a vision for the BSC? 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.000 Hm. I'm not sure how to answer that one. 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:26.000 Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. Was there external or institutional pushback to the creation of the BSC, or did you experience or witness any pushback upon the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:43.000 Hmm, not sure how to answer that either. I'm not really a social media person, I'm on Facebook, but I don't do the Instagram or, you know, so hmm. Was there pushback? 00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000 Yeah. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:41:15.000 I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure there was pushback in the beginning, but I think it got to the point where, because I'm pretty sure that like this last group, it wasn't the first one to bring this up to the president and to administration. And now I'm not sure how to answer that question, Sierra. 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:25.000 No problem. Maybe. Did you, were you aware of any pushback from other groups of people to the creation of the Center or… 00:41:25.000 --> 00:42:25.000 Oh, that way. Yeah. Yeah we got pushback because then you have students start asking for white center. So, but I don't really know how to answer that question as far as pushback, what type of pushback? You know, there were students that, especially when they were talking about opening the Black Student Center, they, yeah. There were students like, we need this, we need that. Why are we having that? I mean you, you're going to have that, but how extensive that was, I can't answer that. 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:31.000 No problem. Were you at the BSC grand opening? 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.000 Absolutely! It was wonderful. 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:44.000 How did you feel the first time you visited the Center once it opened? 00:42:44.000 --> 00:45:34.000 I felt pride. I felt overjoyed. I felt like now the students, and I'm looking at it from a student point of view, now the students can really feel like they have some place to call home here on campus. I felt, I felt prideful. I felt, yes! I felt like, okay, let's, let's do this. I felt as though the place was small and it was going to, it will be outgrown in two weeks, but it was the beginning, it was the beginning and the right direction. And I felt with what they had to, what they had to work with—‘cause I don't know how all of that stuff works. How do you find space on campus? And when you do that, and I know that when that was happening, they had to do away with another space that one of the student orgs had. It was, we had a like serenity type an office and then an area where you can go in and wash your feet before you go pray. And all of that, we had that area. And so they had to take that away. So I felt bad for those students because they were losing their space or they were sending them, giving them someplace else. But in order, it was just, I don't know. It was, you get rid of one in order to move one in and then it's still not really adequate, but it’s what you have. And at least you have something, you know, so I felt good about that. At least they have something and then maybe it can be expanded at a later time. But the mere fact that they did have a space, I felt very happy about that. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:42.000 That's amazing. What was the grand opening like? I want to hear that, more about that. 00:45:42.000 --> 00:48:11.000 We had speakers, the new director was hired at the time. Anthony Jett, he's no longer there. But the students, the Associated Students (Incorporated), they pretty much ran it. Not ran it (the Black Student Center), the program itself. They were the president of ASI, her name was Tiffaney. Her name is Tiffaney Boyd. They pretty much had a role. I'm trying to think. We had speakers there. It was like an open house where we were able to, first we were out in the amphitheater with just like a very nice program. And we toured, we had sororities from other campuses come and it was a big, festive event. And it was wonderful. There was all the students were so happy. It was wonderful. And, you know, I had on my little—kente, what did I wear? I was all gold. I was cute. I was cute that day! It was very festive. The president was there to cut the ribbon, and the students were all up there. I'm pretty sure I have some pictures somewhere from that time, but it was, it was a magical moment. It was wonderful. And it was in the (University) Student Union. The Student Union had just, I can't even remember time, but it was fairly new and like the perfect place for it to be. So by that time we had the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin /x Center, the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQ, no, no, no, the Pride Center. It's not LG. It's just called the Pride Center. So we had all those centers in our Student Union. And it was like, okay, this is what's it, this is happening! This is good. So I felt very prideful. 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.000 That sounds like so much fun. I wish I was there. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:35.000 Then I walk in. ‘Cause you know, like I told you, me being who I am and stuff like that, I walked in. It's like: yeah, mama bear here! Hey! How y’all! You know, I walk in all loud and they sit behind their desk and it was just, it was like open arms. So it felt good. 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:55.000 That is amazing. Now this is more about the early days of the BSC (Black Student Center). Tell us about the early focus of the BSC’s initiatives, like meaning programming, events, and their focus. 00:48:55.000 --> 00:51:55.000 We had some very good events. The focus was bringing Blackness and history and education to campus. I remember we had a event, a program with the Tulsa massacre. And I think we had an event with the founder of Kwanzaa. We had an event I think that year for the opening. I can't remember when we opened, but the, right after the opening, that first March was Women's History Month. So, the director made sure to recognize and honor all of the Black women at Cal State San Marcos. Faculty and staff, and to just, you know, recognize all of them. So it was a day set aside for that, which was wonderful. And I'm sure there's more events that I just can't think of off the top of my head right now, but it was like just going to those events, some were evening, some were during the noon hour. But going to those, it was like, Oh my God! You know, like even the Tulsa massacre, just like hearing about all of that. We had Black Panthers, it was an event where some of the members from Black Panthers was there. So, it was all about promoting history, Black history, and it was fabulous. It was just, it was good and it has continued but you know, now with this pandemic, it's been hard this last year, especially when we got our new director (John Rawlins III), I can see great things are coming. Great things will be coming, but just with this last year, things had to shift. Things had to change. But I think the pride in just educating Black history is his focus and goal and (he’s) doing a great job. 00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:28.000 That's so interesting. And I love that focused on Black history because oftentimes we aren't taught our correct history, you know, so it’s really important and awesome that they did that, especially so early on. Why was the Black Student Center moved from Student Success or Black excellence to Student Life? 00:52:28.000 --> 00:54:20.000 They, I don't know. They changed, well students, it used to be student. I don't know if necessarily changed. I think just the name changed. Changed because Student Life, what did they used to be called? SLL. Student—I'll have to look at one of my t-shirts to see what the SL is, but it's not necessarily changed because they've always been up under Student Affairs. They've always been part of Student Affairs and the student life center, all of this, not all of the centers—all of them have always been part of Student Affairs, but with, like the Pride Center and the Gender Equity Center was part of Associated Students (Incorporated), but then they branched off from Associated Students into Student Life. So that those twos’ kind of like move, but all the other ones have always been part of Student Life. So I'm not sure where that, that question you might have to check with director of the Black (Student) Center for more because I know that they just re- Student Life just, is it Student Life? They just recently changed their name. So they changed it to Student Life? They used to be. Yeah. See, I don't know. 00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:44.000 Okay. No problem. Were there any, or what are some of the wrinkles that had to be worked out in the early days of the Center? 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.000 I don't know. 00:54:46.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. You actually mentioned this a bit, but the main purpose of the Center's creation was to, you know, have a, a place of community for the Black students on campus, place where they can learn about their history and just feel a sense of community. How do you feel like this purpose has been accomplished? Or do you think we're still working on working towards that? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:56:39.000 I think that yes, but there's still growth needed. And if that growth needed as far as more space, more support as far as like, employees to help, you know, yes, the students play a great role, but—a great important role—but students tend to leave. They graduate, they move on. And so, you know, to have like a strong foundation where you have a director and, you know, a couple coordinators or, like full-time staff there, would be helpful. I don't think I answered that question. So ask me that question again. 00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:52.000 You answered it, but I'll ask it again. You mentioned the main purpose. How do you feel like it's been accomplished already? That was the main question. 00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:19.000 Oh, yes. And no. I mean, yes, we accomplished because we have it, but there's going to always be more that needs to be done and more that can be done. So we're not finished, by no means are we finished. 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:40.000 Thank you for that. Um, what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? 00:57:40.000 --> 00:59:09.000 Just the mere fact of knowing that one piece has been accomplished. We got it. So now let's make use of it. Let's make it bigger and better. Let's do all that we can in order to keep promoting. Let's not stop. And even though, like I had mentioned a couple of the events, sometimes events need to be duplicated because you have a different audience, you know, you have new students, you have new freshmen, sophomores that probably wasn't here years ago to see some of the fruits from the events that took place earlier. So sometimes, sometimes things can be duplicated in order to continue the education, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think I'll stop there. 00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.000 Okay. 00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.000 Probably said to yourself, Lord have mercy. 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:20.000 No, It’s been interesting and so amazing. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:24.000 Thank you for making me feel good. 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:40.000 No problem, it's true. Like I'm, I'm being serious cause I'm new to San Marcos. So all of this stuff is brand new to me, so I like hearing about it. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? 00:59:40.000 --> 01:03:21.000 I expect to see John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) do amazing things. He has the energy, and he has the means to bring amazing, new and amazing things to campus. So I expect for—I expect to see some great energy and great education coming from the Center, especially once we get back to campus. Everything is just so, you don't really understand and realize the effect, because this is new to everybody, the effect that this pandemic has had on many, and you don't know cause, like I've realized during this pandemic that depression, loneliness and all of that, all of that stuff is real. And you don't know what individuals are going through. Especially students from like a virtual learning environment to, what if you’re the type of student that you're visual or you're hands on and you can't get that now. And so how is that impacting your ability to learn and to grasp and to understand and to move on from this. So I'm hoping to see great things once we are out of this pandemic and once we're able to move back to campus. And like I said, especially with the implementation of the cluster hiring, I'm hopeful that we're getting ready to get more Black faculty, possibly Black administrators here on campus. I really feel in my heart that our new president (Ellen Neufeldt) she's on her, just completed her—is she going on her second year or first year? But I think that coming this July, I think this will be her second year. I think she gets it. And I think that that is going to be all the difference in the world for Cal State San Marcos, to really, especially where we're centralized, where we are here in North County, North San Diego County to be a little bit more diverse. I think our president now gets it, understands it, believes it, feels it, and is gonna’ make sure that it happens. And I see that in the future. And I don't even know if that that was your question? 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:23.000 It was my question! 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:30.000 And I know I’m, saying that a lot so you know, you will have to cut that, but I'm just being me, Sierra. 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:45.000 I love it. It's fine. And yes, you answered the question perfectly. Did you want to go back to that previous question about, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? 01:03:45.000 --> 01:08:46.000 Hmm. I'll use this as an example. I came to my understanding of Blackness when my son was in the second grade. And like I told you, by this time I'm in Oakland and the school is not predominantly white at the time. You know, it was getting to be a mixture, but I started having problems with my son in school with this teacher, I'm getting phone calls every single day, every day about him doing this, him doing that, you know. What I think what hurt the most is when I had to go to the school to have a conversation with the principal because on my son's report card, the teacher wrote on there that he has, how did she phrase that? Animalistic behavior or something, something she said in that sense? And I'm like, whoa, that was you know, or is she calling my son an animal? Why teacher? But that made me realize, well, how can you put something like this on an important document? And it was one of those situations where I'm constantly getting calls, I'm taking off work, I'm going to class, I'm going to school, I'm doing everything that I needed to be doing. And then for her to put something like that. So I think at that point, it's like, is she calling my son out as a you know, is this because he's Black? And I'm using this as an example because I'm trying to think of how did I come to my real realization of Blackness, of being Black. And that took me for a loop. Later on I began to realize, later on—my son is 38 now. So I'm saying this was back in second grade. I think back then, my son realized at the time that he can get to this teacher and now thinking back on it, I think that she was afraid of my son. A second grader! How old are you? How old are you that? So I have a granddaughter who is seven in the first grade. So you're like, eight, and for teacher to be afraid of a eight-year-old child at that time. And then to say things like that. So naturally I went to the principal's office and I wanted him moved. I wanted him moved out her class because I didn't think that that was healthy. And you know, for him, definitely not, for me, it just, it was like one of those that sent me back like, wow. And that's kinda’ like the only thing that I can kind of like think of right now, coming back to that. But yeah, I think that, that time she was afraid of him and didn't know how to articulate it and but to articulate like that is demeaning. And that let me know that something wasn’t right with her to feel that way and to put that, you know, he ended up—he's married. He’s doing well. He ended up being, he's like one of those giant, what do you call them? Who's real quiet. Quiet giants or no that's not, what's that saying? 01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:47.000 A gentle giant? 01:08:47.000 --> 01:09:29.000 Yes, thank you! And that he ended up that for that's how he is now. He’s about six two, and just so gentle, soft-spoken and it was like, you know. But anyway, sorry, that's the only thing that I can think of. I'm pretty sure as soon as we, soon as we end, this is like a whole bunch of things are going to pop up and say, you should have told her this, you should have said this, but right now? I'm not, I'm not feeling any of it. I don't have the words are just not there. 01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:48.000 That's fine. And I'm glad you guys are good now, but I'm so sorry that happened to you and your son at the time. And I just hate that, you know, as Black people coming into our Blackness always has a, there's always a hand in trauma and you know, discrimination. 01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:52.000 Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. 01:09:52.000 --> 01:10:01.000 Yeah. But thank you for sharing. And my last question is, are there any questions that I should have asked that I didn't? 01:10:01.000 --> 01:13:14.000 You asked some pretty tough questions, Sierra. They were good, but they were tough. And I just hope, I only hope that I'm not a good, um, it's so funny. I'm not a good public speaker. I'm not a good interviewer. And it's so funny that I'm saying that to say, when I came to work for Associated Students (Incorporated) on campus, probably the first year we have a faculty staff association, African-American Faculty Staff Association that has since been renamed. It used to be African-American Faculty, Staff Association, AAFSA, but once the Black Student Center came on board, they renamed it to Black Faculty Staff Association to be more in alignment, more in unison with, we had the Black Student Union, which was a student, which is a student organization. Then we got the Black faculty staffs no, the Black Student Center. And so then that's when they wanted to rename AAFSA to the Black Faculty Staff Association. But back then, when I first came to Associated Students (Incorporated), they needed a president for the African-American Faculty Staff Association. And because, you know, we're, our numbers. We're just. Multiple people have served that role before, but you're just so limited that after I was there for like about a year, they asked me to do it. And of course, I no! I can't be no president, president, no! And it's so funny because a lot of my colleagues, you know: we're here for you, we'll be here, blah-blah-blah. So I said yes, ended up in that role for two years. And with that is like, when we would have functions or a recognition ceremony, we have our signature, soulful luncheon, all those things I'm up on that podium, it's like just the, nervous as all get out. I can't do this, I can't do this. And then you get me up on that podium with that microphone. And I just wouldn't be quiet. I'm just up there just blah-blah-blah-blah. You know? And it just, for whatever event it was, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. So it's like, why am I even telling you, why am I even saying this? I don't even know why? I brought it up for a reason, I lost my train of thought, but—I don't know Sierra. And like I say, when I get off this call, I'm going to say, yeah, I knew that's why I was bringing it up. I brought that up for a reason, but I don’t know. 01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:19.000 Oh my goodness. 01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:26.000 I think we need to end this while I am ahead. If I am ahead. (laughter) 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:30.000 You're doing so good, don’t doubt yourself. 01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:32.000 Just being myself. 01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:35.000 Alright then. 01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:40.000 Well, I appreciate you taking the time out with me. Hopefully your other interviews will go smoothly. 01:13:40.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Oh my gosh, this one went perfectly and thank you for taking your time for me as well and this project as a whole. And your input is so important to this project and just thank you. And now I'm going to stop recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; 30&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource McWilliams, Marilyn. Interview April 5th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Marilyn McWilliams retired after 23 years at California State University San Marcos, where she most recently was the Administrative Assistant for the Office of Inclusive Excellence. McWilliams has been particularly active in advocacy and assistance to underrepresented communities on campus, and has been recognized by the Black Student Union at their awards night, named a Civility Champion, and received the Jonathan Pollard Award for social justice through student affairs. In her interview, McWilliams gives an in-depth account of her Black Experience starting with her childhood. McWilliams considers her childhood connection to education and how that led her to an administrative role at California State University San Marcos. McWilliams also discusses the CSUSM Black Student Center, her function in a supportive capacity, and the important role students' advocacy played in the creation of the Center. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-09 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Marilyn McWilliams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Marilyn McWilliams Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aaron Williams Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Merryl Goldberg OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. music;activism;arts education;censorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-078 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Christine Frazier Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy HG Solomon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025 SC027-079 57:03:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos -- Faculty ; California State University San Marcos. School of Arts ; California State University San Marcos. Biology ; California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective ; Physarum polycephalum ; Artificial intelligence ; Art and artificial intelligence ; Interdisciplinary approach in education ; Border Art Collective ; Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) ; Mars Rover Project ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Environmentalism in art ; California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Lucy HG Solomon Christine Frazier sound HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4e72dfbca93bb6ce80c3ebed9f23b333.mp4 Other video English 1 Introduction Christine Frazier, a graduate student at CSUSM interviews Lucy HG Solomon about her work as an artist and a professor. CSUSM ; Lucy HG Solomon ; art 0 ["[\"\"]"] 33 League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA, and the Mars Rover Project on Oileán Ruaidh Lucy HG Solomon discusses her work with the League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA and the Mars Rover Project on the Irish Island, Oileán Ruaidh. She discusses how Oileán Ruaidh resembled Mars with its red soil, and the significance of such work. She created a reverse NASA study where she examined the future of the island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. They were asking questions such as: Is Earth going to look like Mars in the future? League of Imaginary Scientists ; NASA ; Mars Rover ; Mars ; Oileán Ruaidh ; Lucy HG Solomon 0 [""] 389 Planet Mentorship Project and Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, Sustainability Manager at CSUSM Lucy HG Solomon discusses the Planet Mentorship Project which she worked on with Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, the Sustainability Manager at CSUSM. She discusses thinking about how students relate to the planet. It is an interdisciplinary project which pairs mentorship, art making, and community building together. Ariel Stevenson ; Peace Corps ; Juliana Goodlaw-Morris ; Planet Mentorship Project ; data visualization 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 836 Student involvement in Data Stacks at the Kellogg Library Professor HG Solomon discusses motivating students, and how it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. Students have contributed to the art exhibition Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library Kellogg Library ; Data Stacks ; CSUSM library ; grants ; art exhibitions 0 [""] 897 Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil Professor HG Solomon discusses her work with Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil. She earned a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Campinas in Brazil in 2018. They also began the art collective titled Cesar and Lois. Her interdisciplinary work focuses on art and science while integrating technology. Cesar Baio ; University of Campinas ; Brazil ; Fulbright ; Artificial Intelligence ; Cesar and Lois ; art collective 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 981 Lumen Prize for Artificial Intelligence Professor HG Solomon discusses how she won the Lumen Prize in her art exhibition that to made a statement about what technology serves. &#13 ; She discusses questioning the trajectory of technology, and reflecting on AI usage. &#13 ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; Lumen Prize ; technology use 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1167 Nature as a blueprint for technology HG Solomon discuses her work questioning what would happen if nature were the blueprint for technology. She worked with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Biology ; Betsy Read ; CSUSM ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; nature 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1195 Using the yellow slime mold, Physarum polycephalum as a tool to explore AI development and logic. Professor HG Solomon discusses what kinds of logic that governs AI development, while exploring the logic of Physarum polycephalum, a yellow slime mold. She integrates the logic of Physarum polycephalum into city development models. Palo Alto ; Physarum polycephalum ; AI ; Artificial intelligence ; yellow slime mold ; CSUSM 0 [""] 1356 Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Professor HG Solomon describes the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory that has four students work on art projects that bridge art and science. The Data Lab partnered with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Data Lab ; Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory ; Dr. Betsy Read ; Biology Department at CSUSM 0 [""] 1550 Professor Sandra Doller- CSUSM Professor Professor Sandra Doller collaborated with Professor HG Solomon on the text that was tweeted from the Physarum polycephalum project. Professor Sandra Doller ; Physarum polycephalum 0 [""] 1628 Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory- Salk institute Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory investigated a type of plant hormone related to plant growth at the Salk Institute. She hybridized Arabidopsis in order to make agricultural crops like tobacco. Professor HG Solomon contemplates the importance of one day in the life of a plant, and this leads her into discusses the nature of time. Salk Institute ; Dr. Joanne Chory ; Plant biologist ; plant hormone ; time 0 [""] 1908 The passage of time Professor HG Solomon contemplates the passage of time after reading the book The Passion According to G.H. by Clarice Lispector. She shows the viewer models of Earth's timeline from the Big Bang and contemplates how we view time as a human. time ; Clarice Lispector ; The Passion According to G.H. ; Big Bang 0 [""] 2602 Oulanka Research Station Professor HG Solomon discusses how she was commissioned by the Oulanka Research Station in Finland. She explored how to use these data sets that are collecting data about temperature, individual species and soil responses to climate change and how can this data be incorporate into an AI program. Oulanka Research Station ; Finland ; AI 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2936 Mentorship at CSUSM Professor HG Solomon discusses mentorship at CSUSM. David Avalos was her mentor in the arts. He helped her understand the impact of the art she was creating. She emphasizes the importance of collaboration in the arts as a means to grow and learn. She discusses the Cognate Collective, a collective involving Misael Diaz's and Amy Sanchez at CSUSM. She discusses the importance of the Border Art Collective. Cognate Collective ; David Avalos ; mentorship ; Border Art Collective ; collaboration 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3347 Closing The interview concludes. 0 [""] oral history Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Art Department at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses professional collaboration and her interdisciplinary art projects, along with how she uses interactive media to help people understand complex scientific subjects. She reveals the importance of understanding the implications of scientific innovations for students. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.135 --> 00:00:24.015 Hello, this is Christine Frazier and today I'm interviewing Professor Lucy HG Solomon, for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is April 17th, 2025. This interview is taking place at the CSUSM campus. Professor HG Solomon, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:24.015 --> 00:00:25.855 Thank you for having me. 00:00:25.855 --> 00:00:33.585 Could you tell us a little bit about how you came to teach at California State San Marcos and about your career? 00:00:33.585 --> 00:06:22.754 Yes, for sure. I would love to share a little bit about my creative journey. I was part of an art collective called the League of Imaginary Scientists, and that was from 2006 until--really for about 15 years. So around the pandemic, we shifted, but this was an art collective created with collaborators in Los Angeles and had a very playful approach to incorporating scientific themes into interactive artworks. And we had some acclaim. We had the great opportunity of working with NASA to strangely do a study on Ireland--in Ireland, on an island that was in a narrative way, a sister or a twin to Mars. And the island is called Oileán Ruaidh. It means the Red Island in Gaelic. And so this was during the first push to get really the public excited about the Mars Rovers. And we did a reverse future, or a reverse NASA study where we examined the future of this island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. The rovers were asking questions like: was Mars anything like Earth four million years ago? And we were asking, is the earth going to look like Mars in the future? And so we took the same kinds of samples that the rovers were taking and asked the same kinds of questions. I say that as a preamble because it is that kind of work, this community based, environmentally-oriented, interdisciplinary work that drove me to come to Cal State San Marcos. The founding of CSUSM--what is notable because the size and the nature of the faculty, the size of the university, the nature of the faculty, led the campus to be stridently interdisciplinary. That kind of thinking across disciplines allowed me to work here. And I say, allowed me to work here because I had applied for other positions, and really I had to transform myself to become the graphic design teacher or the media arts teacher or an art professor. And I did work at other institutions. And here I could be unapologetically an interdisciplinary artist. So that's what brought me to Cal State San Marcos. And I'm surrounded by colleagues who work in this hybrid way, and sometimes their work is quite fascinating and really drew me to wanna be here. An example is my colleague, Professor Judit Hersko, who like me, really bridges the world of art and science. When I came here, she had--maybe not recently--but had gone to Antarctica as part of an NSF grant. There was another colleague who is now retired, Deborah Small, who is notable because of her work that happened very organically with tribal communities, where she found that she had a very important--really a critical and perhaps threatened plant on her property in Rainbow where she lives. And tribal members ended up coming to her property as a meet-gathering place to develop crafts based around this plant. They ended up collaborating on a book where she photographed native species. And that became a resource, really for that group. And I have that ethnobotany photo group, photo book somewhere in my library here. But I came to Cal State San Marcos totally excited about the faculty here. Really historically important faculty as well, like David Avalos, who has a background working on border art issues with the Border Art Collective and is a prominent Chicano artist who has recently retired, but is quite really a cool guy. In fact, I have some things of his, I have his hot chili pepper that came from somewhere, and there's a book over there that Trader, Survivor, Icon that has his work in it. Thank you for passing that. Yeah. So this is, this features David Avalos's work. This is an important piece that he made that has also exhibited in the Escondido Center for the Arts. So there was this rigor of artistic creation that was evident in the colleagues who were here and a total encouragement to think and work outside of traditional artistic boundaries. 00:06:22.754 --> 00:06:29.305 That sounds wonderful. Could you explain your work on the Planet Mentorship Project? 00:06:29.305 --> 00:13:31.981 Yes, definitely. So as a faculty member at Cal State San Marcos, we balance a research and creative activities trajectory where we get to make art and write about the things that we care about. And, we do--of course, we're professors, we teach, and we also think about how we contribute to the campus community and the community at large. So one of the ways that I have found a way to be involved in the global community and to engage students in thinking about how they relate to the planet is a project that was conceived across different areas of the university. The arts: that's me. And then Juliana Goodlaw-Morris is, she is a former Peace Corps volunteer who really has worked across her professional career thinking about the use of resources. And she heads our sustainability efforts on campus. So she has become a close collaborator when I think about the impact of students' education and also their art on the environment and how to connect those more closely. Then the third person who started this project, and I'll talk about the project in a second, but it's Ariel Stevenson, and she is somebody who is thinking about inclusive excellence. That's her role on campus. And she brought to Juliana and me discussions around inclusive sustainability, how to engage the wider, the broader student body in environmental issues, environmental issues that really touch students in their homes, in their, uh, communities. And yet maybe they haven't studied environmental issues or they haven't developed the tools to really grapple with how they might become involved in the environmental issues across the planet. So we started this program. We started a program called the Planet Mentorship Project, and I am a professor in the arts. My specialty is data visualization. And when I started teaching data visualization, it was not that commonly understood. Now it's so obvious. I think actually COVID really made people alert to graphing in dynamic ways because they wanted to understand complex data sets quickly, and the literacy around data visualization across the world suddenly exploded. I work with students to create data visualizations around their lived experiences with daunting environmental issues and the data sets that are related to those. So in the Planet Mentorship Project, we pair mentorship, art making, and community building. And it's--we have some fun together. I'll show you a couple projects too or I'll talk about a couple projects. This is one student, Aidelen Montoya, who she made a data visualization that looks at the future of sea rises across the globe, but specifically relevant to the Philippines. And as a Filipinx student, she also examined her own ties to the Philippines and started to use beading, which is a traditional Filipino practice, and decided that she would bead these future maps. So this map of 2050 notably has much of the Philippines underwater, and this was an entry point for her to connect more with the place where her mother immigrated from, as well as explore environmental issues. So that's really the goal. Another, another work by Aidelen, I just have a couple of hers here--she looked at redlining in San Diego and made this dynamic embroidered map that really makes an inverse of the redlined areas and invited students who visited the exhibition at the Data Stacks on campus to look at where they're from and to see was this one of the areas that was excluded to someone who looks like me, or in this case, not me, but a student of color and their family. So that project has existed for about--we're in our third year and we are continuing it looking each year for a new cohort of students whom we hope to engage in arts in a dynamic way, and at the same time celebrate their own developing interests in nurturing the planet and examining the very critical issues around environmental injustice and the nuances of how that might have impacted their own family life. Some students live adjacent to factories and only in their critical inquiry really understand the embedded structural challenges that have developed, that have caused hardship and health issues within their families. So it's great. I mean, that's not great. That's problematic, but it is really rewarding to have students get excited about environmental causes which have traditionally not been causes that communities of color have been able to take over. There are often--environmental studies has been an area of study that has been dominated by white students and white scholars. And so you see this intersectional approach also shifting. Who gets to be an environmentalist? Everyone is an environmentalist. We're all affected by pollution. 00:13:31.981 --> 00:13:45.865 For professors or educators that would like to have students do these types of projects, what are some tips or issues that you think they should know about? 00:13:45.865 --> 00:13:50.034 And by? So by types of projects, you mean co-curricular, extracurricular? 00:13:50.034 --> 00:13:56.000 Yeah. Kind of interdisciplinary, getting students to critically examine their own environment and creating, you know-- 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:57.394 This project, the Planet Mentorship Project is a real commitment, and one thing that we do is we pay students. We have a--it's a grant, it's a scholarship-based project where students--and any student can participate--all students on campus are welcome. We usually have the amount of student applicants whom we accept. So it's kind of worked out perfectly. I don't wanna say that the only way to get students involved is to pay them, but it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. And it may be the first time that they feel that they're acknowledged as an artist and a scholar. At the end of the program, we have a panel, the students discuss their work. We have an art exhibition at the Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library. 00:14:57.394 --> 00:15:11.544 Okay. Very cool. And I know, moving on a little bit, that you've also worked with Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Could you explain your work there for us? 00:15:11.544 --> 00:22:32.704 Yes, yes. So around the time that my, that the Art Collective, the League of Imaginary Scientists started to stop doing the kind of crazy art installations we were making around science, like the one that I described of the Inverse Mars Study. I started working with a Brazilian media artist and scholar, Cesar Baio, who is based at Uni Camp, a university in Brazil. It's the state university of Campinas. And we, we started to collaborate sometimes in person. I had a Fulbright to go to Campinas in Brazil as well as a few other places, but I spent a significant amount of time in 2022 there. We began working together in 2018, and we worked also between these disciplines of art and science while integrating technology. So our first artwork actually garnered us a pretty cool prize, the Lumen Prize in Artificial Intelligence. And this is a prize for the arts, for digital art. But this particular sub award, this award was for excellence in critically examining artificial intelligence. And that is what we started to do. We started to make artworks that use scientific principles often through collaborating in labs and with research scientists to make a statement about what technology serves. What the purpose is, how it intersects with society and nature. And that sounds all pretty crazy and complex, and I'll try to say it in a couple different ways. So we also make art that is often living. So we'll make a living sculpture rather than seeing just a piece of wood, it might be a wooden structure that incorporates living plants. And from those plants we receive live signals. Those signals become part of the art project. Our--so Cesar Baio and myself, we have the collective's name is Cesar and Lois, and one of our goals is to question the trajectory of technology, including artificial intelligence. And one example of that is thinking critically about the basis of technology, the basis of AI as a neurocentric or human rewards-based system. So a lot of--most AI systems, all programs, all AIs require data sets. And most of those databases come from--these are training databases and they come from human language models. They also--and those aspire to replicate human logic. Other rewards based training models, reinforce behavior that is very also human. Humans, when we get food, we feel rewarded. When we do certain things, we are also motivated by this internal reward. Hopefully that's not our only motivation. AIs are currently being developed in these ways. So Cesar and I started looking in it from an artist's perspective. So we're not AI specialists, but we incorporate artificial intelligence programming into our sculptures. We started thinking, what if nature were the blueprint for technology? And we started looking first at very simple systems, microbiological systems. We used one organism that we really got turned onto by a biology professor here at CSUSM, Dr. Betsy Read. She gave us a sample of slime mold, Physarum polycephalum. That is a really cool, fast growing yellow organism. It started a whole fashion craze for me where I only wore yellow for a long time 'cause I fell in love with this organism. And I worked with teams of students here at Cal State San Marcos, and we made art installations where Physarum polycephalum would make decisions and we would base our own computer system on that organism. And the big question was, you know, what kind of logic does this organism have? The organism is kind of interesting. It's not unlike some other kinds of networking organisms like, like fungi, although it's not a fungi. It was misclassified as fungi for a long time by scientists and then unclassified. But Physarum polycephalum or slime mold, which you can see out in the world in gardens. It's a networking organism that shares its resources across all of the nodes of its network. And as artists, we went into labs, we had artistic residencies and labs in different countries and different places. And we were able to grow and study this organism and ask, well, what if our own technologies shared resources the way that Physarum polycephalum does this? Um, this kind of wooden structure behind me was a basis for growing Physarum polycephalum. And this is actually a dried, you can't see it anymore 'cause it's all dried up. But that is where we groove the organism across a map of Palo Alto to show would Palo Alto and East Palo Alto--kind of the wealthiest and the poorest neighborhoods in California and maybe even the whole country. We were curious would Physarum polycephalum  organize those cities the same way that humans do? And what we found in our experiments is that Physarum polycephalum will redistribute wealth across its whole network. So we started using, in a way, the microorganism as a tool for data visualization and recalibrating our understanding of how could we logically change how we think about resource distribution, how societies are formulated. 00:22:32.704 --> 00:22:36.144 And what was the student response to discovering these things? 00:22:36.144 --> 00:23:50.000 We had students who participated, so Kodi Gerritsen was a student of mine at the time. She came to Stanford University with Cesar and me, and we presented this project together. There were three other students who worked on that project. And I started what's called the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory. And each semester I have about four students who work on art projects that bridge art and science. This is kind of unusual in the arts, but I was inspired and encouraged by my scientist colleagues. And this goes back to CSUSM being a model for interdisciplinary exploration. When Betsy Reed gave me that sample of Physarum polycephalum, she also said, come into the biology lab and experiment and try to figure out how to grow this in an artistic context. This is so fun. And she also allowed--that's actually very expensive. That's a huge resource. I was able to use that lab bench. And the bio tech at the time really helped me, helped keep alive the organism. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000 True. 00:23:51.000 --> 00:25:11.000 And it was so cool. So, and we did things. We asked questions that maybe the scientists hadn't been asking, like, how do I grow this on a map? How do I grow this on the surface of a book? We started to grow Physarum polycephalum over pages of a book to question in, in many cases, we use Descartes--books about that, questions about humanities, really what Descartes would term as man's control over nature. So we looked at these traditional tenets of Western civilization and what are considered the kind of great models of thinking and Western thought, and started to challenge those with layers of logic on top of those. So we had a computer system that we set up that took photographs of a book as the organism grew across it. And as the organism grew across the book, then the text started to change. So first it would say, only man is the king and queen of nature, only men. We used this, a quote from Cicero, only man can reverse the flow of rivers. And as--that's a paraphrase-- 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Yeah. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:26:24.000 --and as the organism grew across, it would say something very unintelligible. But what was really cool, actually, we had the computer system tweet out the--back when Twitter was a thing instead of, before it evolved--the organism would tweet updated text from the book, devolving this text. And at that time when, when we did this, this was in 2019, we worked with another professor in literature here on campus, Professor Sandra Doller and Professor Doller, she brought her literature students in her critical analysis team, and they workshopped the text that the organism has--had published within Twitter. And they really looked at it as a poem or a body of language. It was really fun. And we filmed that and we have a video of those students' analysis of the living microorganisms. So that's cool. That is a very long background-- 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Yeah. 00:26:25.000 --> 00:28:26.000 --to say that Cesar and Lois, uh, Cesar Biao and I, we, we were working with art and science, and when you asked about our work with the Salk Institute, we had had this body of work already. And so we had been--I guess, tried--we had had some chops proven within this arena of questioning this barrier between art and science that has been erected gradually over years, but maybe is being dismantled quite often at CSUSM And we were invited to and offered a commission to create a work with a biologist, a plant biologist--a plant microbiologist, Dr. Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Dr. Joanne Chory is known for her great scientific breakthrough, which now I think was maybe two decades ago, which was the discovery of a kind of plant hormone. It's not really a hormone, but it's called alchine. Am I saying that right, now? I won't say what it is, a secret thing. Yeah. And she discovered this, something like a hormone that plants release, and specifically the Arabidopsis plant, which is kind of known as a common weed, but in biology labs, it's used quite often to study and--to study hybrids, to create hybrids very quickly. They're, they're great lab rats for plant microbiologists. She, she stu--her discovery of this plant hormone was so cool, because what happens, I think it's, is it oxen? Uh, I'll, I'll find out and get back to you. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000 Yeah. 00:28:27.000 --> 00:33:02.000 Her discovery of this thing, this chemical that gets released, occurs when we didn't know that much about how plant cycles are triggered. And what happens is that the Arabidopsis plant, it's very first exposure, it's first day of light, is so important. And if it gets sunlight, then it grows in a certain way. And if it's in the shade, it grows in a different way for the rest of its life. So if it's in sunlight, it doesn't need to compete with a lot of other plants. So it will not grow long roots, but if it is in the shade, it will grow longer roots. And what that means for other plants and for that particular plant, is that it retains more carbon. Because it's embedding more of its metabolic results in the earth and putting that carbon down. And so she was hybridizing Arabidopsis in order to make vast agricultural crops like tobacco have longer roots and help kind of shift this climate change. What stuck with Cesar and me in her study were the themes of, of course the globe and climate, but also time. How cool is it that one day in a plant's life is so important? In some ways that's true with humans. Of course, what happens to us as babies has an impact. But imagine if it was like whatever happened in that twenty four hours of your life, the very first day is a blueprint for forever. So we started to think about timescales and what is time for Arabidopsis? What is time for microbiological organisms for Physarum polycephalum? For a tree that lives for a thousand years? Like the sequoias? What are these different scales of time? And how can we think about time differently as humans? And if we did, what would it do for our decision making? Like if we could think across a thousand-year span? And then we started to think about, I was reading--this was during the pandemic when we had this assignment, so of course we were thinking about time. And even the project got interrupted for a year because everything was shut down, including the Salk Institute for a period of time, or at least to artists. So we were thinking about time, we were having time slowed down and sped up in the strange way that the pandemic infected our lives. And we were also thinking about the deep planetary time. There's an author, a Brazilian author, Clarice Lispector, who had, during the pandemic especially, become quite popular in the US 'cause she was newly translated, even though she's a classically known, and really thought of as a modernist artist and writer--not artist, but literature contributor in Brazil, Clarice Lispector, amazing challenging author, but really interesting. And I started reading her during the pandemic, her work. And she has one book called The Passion According to G.H. That book is really experimental. And in it, she has some framing of a woman's experience as really dipping into her own framing of prehistoric time. And how she, at some point, the sculptor who is a main character in this book, has an existential moment where she crushes a cockroach and she doesn't--her own feelings of self evolve and she cannot really distinguish herself from the cockroach. And so she's talking about, you know, what is our, my own prehistoric memory? Do I have any memory with this? Do I, what do I share with this cockroach? And so we were also thinking about that. Like, what is time according to the planet? 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.000 Yeah. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:29.000 Prehistoric time? Are the bacteria that we evolved from, do we have, what kind of memories do we have associated with that? Do we have that? How long can our thinking be? And we were thinking about technology because technology is fast, and if we know anything about what, how we use AI in technology, it's usually to cut a corner to get something immediately. 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:30.356 Yeah. 00:33:30.356 --> 00:34:11.045 And one of the worst culprits of this is Amazon. So, I like to use Amazon as an example, because of its famous same day delivery. When it, when the system, the AI system is shooting the data through its code to decide who gets to have same day delivery, what is considered are profits and also convenience. What is not considered is the long questions, the long logic. The long sense of time, like what is the impact on the planet? 00:34:11.045 --> 00:34:12.000 Yeah. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Or on people and populations and culture and communities, when we start to economize our daily interactions and that gets spurred on by these technological tools. And we think of them as tools, but we don't always question the values that they're suddenly implanting. So that's what we started thinking about with Joanne Chory. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.000 Yes. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:37:15.000 With Dr. Chory. Not necessarily with her--with her, we really focused on Arabidopsis and the plant, and we started growing it ourselves. And during the pandemic, I worked with the Data Lab, and we grew and recorded the, the growth of Arabidopsis. We also started collecting plants all over Escondido, where I lived mostly around the specific property where I was living, which was very natural. And, along with the help of my daughter, who was six at the time, we collected many specimens and dried them and used those as part of the artwork. So I have, I have behind me one of the models that we made for thinking about time. So this circle that you see is the history of Earth starting with the Big Bang. And that became one of the models for allochronic cycles, which was a series of clocks that we made. I'll say clocks, but they're not quite clocks, but they were--there are, it's a series of discs that we designed and one was the cosmos. We thought the longest clock was the cosmos' time and for of the cosmos we embedded all of those specimens into holes, into little discs around the clock, around the disc. And then we had an earth cycle, and we had an Arabidopsis cycle, of course. And we had also a Covid cycle that went very quickly because the virus replicates. And for each of these cycles, we really studied all of these different ways of thinking about time, including viral time, and how fast growing and evolving viruses are. Which viruses, apart from infecting individuals and species are really cool, how they can replicate. So thinking about that kind of time, against the backdrop of cosmic time, those are huge leaps. So we really had fun during that whole year thinking about time. And then we made this model of clocks that I'll share an image of that, that is actually behind you we have some of the discs. I could pull one over. 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Sure. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Okay. I'll try not to knock anything over. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.000 Yeah. 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:39.000 Okay. You should have had this ready to go. I'll get the cosmos one. Okay. Let's see this up. Okay. I'll just show this one. 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.125 Yeah. 00:37:42.125 --> 00:38:42.000 There's several discs, but I'll just show this cosmos one, because with the cosmos one, you can really see when it rotates that it has these powdered specimens inside of them. And they start--it's kind of cool, I think, how it like moves. And, so each one of these lights up and is powered, but it's also controlled by an AI. So it's controlled by a program that we wrote that takes into account, it's monitoring all of these different discs. So imagine the cosmos: it's spinning, but you barely notice it. Covid is spinning and it's, it's moving quite rapidly. This all exhibited at the La Jolla Historical Society. And then the following year, actually during the same exhibition, was it the same exhibition? It was, we made another version of it because it toured China and it— 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Oh, wow. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:32.000 --it was cool because at the time we had two Chinese students who were in instrumental to the development of the project on the Data Lab, Ji Young, and that's her first name, and also, Lee who's Ziwei Lee, and he goes by Lee and Ji Young is now, she's a PhD student at the University of Dallas, at the University of Texas in Dallas. And she also got her master's at USC during the pandemic. So this project was really formative for students and the students, especially those two students because of their background in, I think, you know, design coming from China, but also design that integrates planets in some ways. Ji Young had done some work across designing with different kinds of calendars for one of my, one of the class projects. Anyway, they really informed the project. Kodi Gerrittsen also worked on the project, and she now runs the Makerspace on campus. So she, she was, Kodi was instrumental in developing the Data Stacks as well. And so no, all three of the them were, because the Data Stacks opened the year after the pandemic, we, it was ready to open in March of the pandemic year, and then we sus--it was up, but the official opening happened a year later, almost, I think. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:57.000 Yeah. And, as you work on these projects, I think it's evident that you're comfortable and you have a lot of experience working with AI. As the university kind of transitions to using more AI, are there any insights or things that we need to think about as we kind of go into this new age? 00:40:57.000 --> 00:42:07.000 Definitely, yes. Thanks for asking that question. So that project, allochronic cycles, allochronic is a word that means when geological epochs are out of sync or when something's out of sync with its geological epoch. And we started to think that, wow, allochronic, that's what we humans are, we're out of sync with our geology and the Earth. And so is AI. AI is making advanced decisions that is having an impact on the planet. So one of the things that the AIL and allochronic cycles did is there were all of these spinning discs, and the AI represented as a screen. So we always have a visual representation of this program that is graphically moving across the screen. So you have--and in this case, the AI is a replica of the cycles. So you can see these discs spinning, but at the same time, what it's doing is it's looking at the current carbon emissions on the planet, which you can get in real time. So if the AI is collecting that for the day and each day projects out-- 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:07.887 Wow. 00:42:07.887 --> 00:42:14.973 --when the Earth will no longer be habitable if the current carbon emissions are maintained. 00:42:14.973 --> 00:42:15.858 Yeah. 00:42:15.858 --> 00:42:28.678 And so then each day of the clock is the future of--is the day of the clock is like the next hundred to three hundred years. 00:42:28.678 --> 00:42:29.560 Yeah. 00:42:29.560 --> 00:44:02.000 Every day is the Earth's future. And at a certain point in the day, everything stops. And that's when the AI shuts down the clock and says, you know, at this point, the allochronic has happened. Like nothing is in sync. The carbon emissions have made life on Earth no longer possible. As we know it, life on earth as we know it. So that was kind of a challenging--a challenge to AI as well. Even though AI is given this task, it's a predictive task, the question is, really can we make a technology that does take into account the needs of the planet? Our next big project, well, we've had a quite a few projects since then, but we had a commission in the northern forest of Finland. And this was just this past year, we went to the Boreal Forest at the border between Finland and Russia and the North. And we were embedded at a research station, the Oulanka Research Station. And working with scientists who are so dedicated. And I always think of scientists as dedicated. Anyone who is doing research, longitudinal research is doing the same thing for thirty years. That takes so much focus. And most of these scientists, they're coming back--they were for many, many decades coming back to the cold, to the permafrost. 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000 Yeah. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:54.000 Looking, looking--the Boreal Forest actually wasn't permafrost, but in the winter months, looking at their sensors and getting their readings. Now this research station is year long, and they have longitudinal studies and they upkeep these data sets. So one of our goals was to think about how can we use these data sets that are asking questions about temperature and individual species and soil responses to climate change? How can we incorporate that into an AI? And we started to get our own signals. We had started doing this when we worked with a mushroom colony. We, we started getting signals from fungi for another project where we attempted communication with fungi, and that exhibited in Brazil. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.044 Yeah. 00:44:55.044 --> 00:46:09.715 And this project was creating, using the forest itself, the whole--imagine if the boreal forest, the network of forest were the model for the AI. Instead of a human neural network being the model for computer machine, computer processing or machine thinking, what if it's the forest? And the question for that project was really, does a forest make good decisions? Does it make better decisions than humans? Can humans make decisions like a forest? So I, I think for me, my role, as an artist is what many of the artists do here in this department. We look at an issue, we examine it critically, and then we offer other avenues for society. And it's--the artwork is meant as a question mark. It's meant as fodder for thinking and hopefully will propel new directions. 00:46:09.715 --> 00:46:37.744 It's very compelling. It's kind of, looking at AI, I think in a very unique way, a new perspective. I think many in education and elsewhere, it's just like a simple tool that people use and I think a few people even know, like the impact of AI, you know, on the environment. So this is really, really cool. As an educator, how have you used AI in your art classes? 00:46:37.744 --> 00:47:58.000 That's a great question. I have had individual students who use AI to generate projects. And part of my own requirement is that they contextualize and discuss what that means, what is the, the use of the tool. I am looking at and trying to develop a new curricular focus on AI and data visualization, where along with Cesar Baio and his wife in Brazil--is an AI specialist--named Livia Rubeck. And I am hoping to develop a curricular module with them that examines data sets and methods for mitigating bias in AI by eliminating bias in data sets. So it's a, that is Livia's expertise is examining and identifying bias in AI. Examples of that could be simply that, a whole gender is discluded. 00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:59.000 Yeah. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:29.994 So then the results and our understanding of the AI or the decisions aren't going to be as accurate and certainly won't be representative. So I'm curious, I'm not sure how that will play out in the classroom, but that is something I'm currently embarking on, and that I expect will be a year-long study with ideally implementation in the spring. 00:48:29.994 --> 00:48:31.304 Okay. 00:48:31.304 --> 00:48:34.000 So check back. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.585 Definitely. 00:48:35.585 --> 00:48:39.684 In a hundred years. I'll give you the next--no. 00:48:39.684 --> 00:48:57.000 Yeah. And considering that you are, working in the Art Department, are there any faculty that you'd like to review as being, you know, formative in your journey or impacting your work? 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:14.000 Definitely. I think there are--there is the, my particular colleague, David Avalos, who was a resistant mentor of mine. I dragged him into taking on that role-- 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.485 That is funny. 00:49:14.485 --> 00:49:57.000 --and then he became an obstinate mentor, a willing mentor. So he's somebody who really--like I mentioned at the very beginning of this interview, David Avalos is a Chicano artist, very important in the history of border art in Southern California, who has brought--married critical thinking, teaching, and art making within his practice. As a colleague, he really, you know, he knows how to ask the hard questions. And that's sometimes what we have to do. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:02.433 Yeah. 00:50:02.433 --> 00:52:19.684 With one another, we have to ask, how is what you're making--is what you are making, doing what you wanted to do in the world? And how do you adjust or work harder even? And so I have enjoyed my conversations with him as a model for thinking about my art practice. He has worked in an art collective and did so very thoughtfully with the Border Art Collective. That experience has been really important to how he thinks about the arts. And it has validated many of us in the department in our own work that is collaborative. Oftentimes when you go to different areas of the arts, perhaps the single master artist is celebrated. And we are, many of us in this department say, I'm thinking about the Cognate Collective, which is Misael Diaz's Collective. Professor Misael Diaz with, lecturer Amy Sanchez, who's also on campus. They create work together and sometimes they teach together. And that kind of collaborative making and thinking is pretty formative. It can generate something bigger than the individual's vision. And so David has supported that. I would also say that colleagues in the--and I should say too, that, Misael as a new colleague during the pandemic--I think just before the pandemic he joined our department--has also carried on that tradition of working within a collective, in a really exciting way. 00:52:19.684 --> 00:52:37.164 So thinking just in practice, how do you like forge relationships with other departments? Like how do you network as a faculty. If other people you know, on campus wanted to create an interdisciplinary project? 00:52:37.164 --> 00:53:14.000 I think it sometimes it's about asking a question that's interesting across disciplines. So you Judit Hersko has done so. She started working with--she's an art professor here who worked with she physics professors. And the physics professors, I always think of them as the other artists because they're asking these big questions that maybe are unanswerable and maybe it's the quest that becomes very engaging. As opposed to always having the practical answer. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.545 Yep. 00:53:18.545 --> 00:53:50.000 But I have found that the scientists across campus are very open to collaboration, and that's so cool. We have some new scientists who are in the microbiology and biological sciences, like Dr. Carlos Luna Lopez and Dr. Erika Díaz-Almeyda, among many others who are just kind of intrepid explorers. And so they're looking at the world-- 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.125 Yeah. 00:53:52.125 --> 00:54:16.000 --through their own interdisciplinary lens already. So to tap into similar questions, to ask questions together from different angles, then just those initial discussions of questioning builds a framework for questioning together, and ideally bringing in students and having something bigger happen because you have input and expertise from different areas. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:24.994 Okay. Well, thank you for letting me interview you today. Is there anything else you'd like to share? 00:54:24.994 --> 00:56:15.000 Yeah. Yes, I would say that the--that trajectory of art and science, there are other avenues that happen and it's, there aren't only--there isn't only one method for collaborating. And I think another, so Judit Hersko has done that. Kristine Diekman, who also retired, she did that. I mentioned that Deborah Small was a collaborator across botany and indigenous practices and photography. So we--I think there's all of these different ways of thinking and working together. And that--I think if I had one, just to tie this whole long statement back to our very, your very first question about what brought me to CSUSM and that I had recalled, it was really the interdisciplinarity of the school. That is what persists. That ability to work across disciplines. I really hope, I think it's been the hope of all faculty who work here because it allows for a lot of freedom. When you are not, I wanna--maybe shackled is too strong a word--but siloed also another strong word, but when you don't have those restrictions, there are many more possibilities. So I really hope that our students feel that we have the--and that the community feels that. We have a lot of majors that are designed for cross-disciplinary explorations. So we have--the new Data Science major takes an art class-- 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Oh wow. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:28.000 --the environmental studies, the environmental studies students, those majors can take several different art classes that focus on art and science. The liberal studies students who are going to be the future educators-- 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.000 Yeah. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:41.000 --do get a grounding in the arts, which is so important for K-12 teaching. So I just, I'm excited to be in a place where exploration is key. 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:53.775 Very cool. Well, it was wonderful talking to you today. I appreciate our time together and thank you for contributing to the oral history project. 00:56:53.775 --> 00:57:02.000 Thank you. I hope it's an all right contribution. Thanks for having me. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-079 Subject The topic of the resource Art and artificial intelligence Art and science Border Art Collective California State University San Marcos -- Faculty California State University San Marcos. Biology California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Environmentalism in art Interdisciplinary approach in education Mars Rover Project Physarum polycephalum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy HG Solomon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Frazier Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy HG Solomon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tiffaney Boyd OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Boyd, Tiffaney. Interview, April 15th, 2021. SC027-11 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM Instructionally Related Activities funding csusm Tiffaney Boyd Sierra Jenkins moving image BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/abdeb6b5993217c41d7d8f3dc1554cff.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood Boyd discusses being born and raised in California's Inland Empire including her education. Moreno Valley ; Inland Empire ; economic divestment ; education 0 167 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Boyd reflects on a lack of knowledge of Black history until college. Learning about Blackness related to how Black people are treated in the United States. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Hemet ; police harrassment 0 293 Developing an understanding of Blackness Boyd speaks about the racial and ethnic diversity of her high school and her shock at the small population of Black students at California State University San Marcos. Blackness for her is about pride and the knowledge of the struggles that Black people have experienced. racial diversity ; infrastructure ; Black pride ; struggle ; sociology ; criminology ; inequality ; systemic racism 0 546 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Boyd discusses her awareness of Black activism especially with Trayvon Martin's death. She believes Black people are trying and succeeding but it is much harder for them to do so. She also talks about the Natural Hair Show on campus. protest ; natural hair movement ; Trayvon Martin 0 827 Role in the creation of the Black Student Center Boyd talks about her roles in student government that allowed her to be involved in initial discussions in the development of the Black Student Center. Racism at universities across the nation impacted her concern for resources available for Black students at California State University San Marcos. At a campus open forum with the President, students brought up several issues impacting Black students including the need for a Black Student Center. Latinx Center ; racism ; U-Hour ; open forum 0 1161 Previous efforts to establish the BSC and initial opposition Boyd discusses initial lack of support of the idea of a Black Student Center by Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI) staff. She was met with a lot of resistance by a traditionally white, male ASI elected positions. There were several Black students who were willing to be vocal about their experiences and lack of support. food pantry ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; student success ; women of color 0 1509 Student governance meeting and discussion / vote on the resolution for the creation of the Black Student Center Boyd talks about her work in getting the resolution for the creation of the Black Student Center passed. There were challenges to this proposal including a student leader who claimed that slavery did not exist. Ultimately, his comment helped to propel a positive vote forward. public comment ; resolution ; vote ; slavery ; celebration 0 1809 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Boyd speaks to the work that came next after the resolution for the Black Student Center passed. A task force was appointed to study the issue and propose details about the Center. Other diverse student groups stood aside Black students to support the development of the Center. task force ; Jamaéla Johnso ; Louis Adamsel ; Dilcie Perez ; Fredi Avalos ; Kai Guzman ; Sharon Elise 0 2028 The Black Student Center Grand Opening Boyd discusses her graduation and what went on after that time. The Black Student Center opened in the University Student Union. It was good for her to come back to the opening of the Center and reflect on the work she started. diversity office ; graduation ; student union ; advocacy ; coalition building 0 2363 Early focus of the BSC’s initiatives, programming, events Boyd speaks to the early plans for the Black Student Center to have programs focusing on Black women and amenities needed by Black students. Black women ; women of color ; safe haven ; cultural competence 0 2496 Early events and programs Boyd says she has not been able to reap the benefits of the Black Student Center since she graduated soon after the planning stages. 0 2562 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Boyd Boyd reflects on how her experience with the Black Student Center was formative for her career in policy and government affairs. Boyd was a legislative aide for Shirley Weber, who was a key proponent of establishing ethnic studies in California schools. Shirley Weber ; ethnic studies ; legislation ; advocacy ; policy work ; change 0 Oral history Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Thursday, April 15th, 2021, at 3:04 PM. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Tiffany Boyd for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library, Special Collections. Tiffany, thank you for being here with me today. TIFFANEY BOYD: Thank you. JENKINS: All right, so I'm going to just jump right in with the questions. And the first one I have for you is, start out with where you were born and where did you grow up? BOYD: Sure. I was born in Moreno Valley, California. And I grew up in San Jacinto, well Hemet/San Jacinto area, which is Inland Empire, California. I don't know if you wanted me to go more, but I grew up there. JENKINS: Yeah. How was it growing up in that area? BOYD: Sure. So, 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 so that area is kind of economically, uninvested in or divested in, right. I grew up in some apartment complexes there, and you know, a lot of crime, a lot of poverty to say the least, surrounds, and it was within Hemet California just because it is not close to big business or anything. It's 30 minutes out to the freeway. My high school was next to a dairy farm. And so the education system, I went to a high school that was brand new. We were the first freshmen, first graduating class out there and you could tell that. I didn't have to write essays in high school at all. I had a 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 substitute teacher for three years. It was just, substitute teacher after year after year for my English class, in which I didn't have to write and really the students were able to kind of run the show for three years because the same teacher was assigned, but she was out. And so I think just going to that high school realized how much education was not, you know, like factored or very like highly focused on at my school. JENKINS: Oh, wow. That’s, That’s crazy. But that kind of goes into my next question of, what were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience, whether it be through education or life, family? BOYD: Sure. You know, I think within my family, it was always emphasized to go to school, to go to college eventually. But as far as Black history specifically, 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 it wasn't much, taught in my school. It wasn't until much later into college and electives that I was really able to learn about Black history above and beyond MLK day or some type of form of Black History Month, but not really getting into the, I guess, the depths of our history and all of the fighters that were, you know, had to fight against oppression and, applied against the systems that continue to not invest in Black economics and Black justice. And so I think growing up with my parents, and in Hemet that is, was originally a retirement city for older folks, older white folks, and was a city that Black people weren't welcomed in and my dad was harassed by the police in Hemet, right, got like 21 tickets in one year, from just like 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 walking, driving, biking, no matter what, just like: what are you doing here, never seen you before in this area? And so I think, watching my dad and his interaction with the criminal justice system younger kind of taught me, I think, a lot about Black history in some ways, or like the historic ways that in which Black people are treated in this country. And so, we're seeing a lot of that today as far as folks being harassed doing normal things as Black people, but still not being seen as a whole person or someone worth the dignity and right to live. JENKINS: How did you come to your own understanding of Blackness? BOYD: I don't know. I don't even know what that means. I mean, I don't even know. I think for me coming to college, I went to a high school that had, 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 you know, Black and Brown and it was a very diverse high school. Not as far as diverse teachers, but the students were diverse. Coming to San Marcos where we were less than 3% of the population at the campus was something that was new for me. And it did throw me a little bit off that there wasn't, you could be the only Black person in campus or in your class often. I don't think I had one Black professor during my time at San Marcos and so that was also kind of just different, and made hyper aware of my, that I was Black, that I'm different. And I think that realizing that we didn't have a like organization like sororities fraternities at the time, we didn't have like Black focused clubs. There was a BSU (Black Student Union), 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 but at that time it wasn't active. And so there was a very desired need just to be with people of likeness that kind of understood the Black experience, whatever that kind of means. But for me, Blackness just means pride or an understanding that there are struggles that we go through or that we've been through that other ethnicities and races haven't necessarily had that struggle. JENKINS: Okay. And, you mentioned that you came, like you learned more about your, about Black history and the Black experience in college was that through classes and I guess since you didn't use to have like the BSU and Black sororities, did it come through the Black Student Center later? BOYD: So I didn't come through the Black Student Center later because we didn't, I didn't get to benefit from the Black Student Center at all. I think through sociology classes 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 and through criminology courses and communications courses. One course which is kind of almost the opposite, but yet it still points to it is The Communication of Whiteness, is a class taught by Jim Mamoon that kind of just put into perspective. I think a lot of times we do focus on the experience of Black people and how we've gotten, come to be, but it's like, how do we continue to perpetuate whiteness and how that affects the power structures that we face today? And so I think being able to talk about inequality and race in my sociology classes really put into perspective of how everything isn't necessarily so, I guess happenstance, but that systems are perpetuated and created and policies are perpetuated and created that allow the experience that I have in which I'm going to a school 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 that is underfunded or that, I wasn't, you know, had access to AP courses or anything that it's perpetuated, that structural racism kind of works in that way. And so I think that that's how I was able to form more of a strong identity that, you know, we don't have a pipeline program at our, on our campus. That we’re not recognized as Black students, that our struggles are different than a traditional student or how higher education was originally formed. And so I think that, in that I wanted to create a space where, and dialogue and room for us to kind of talk about the experience of being at San Marcos and not necessarily being seen. JENKINS: That's awesome. That kind of goes back what you're talking about, with like what's going on today and like that kind of thing. So my next question is how has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 movement, feminism, the natural hair movement and Black Lives Matter affected you? BOYD: Yeah, I would say it was affecting me a lot. So the first, the first iteration of some way, like I was already kind of aware, but I think it was like a appointment, like exclamation mark when Trayvon Martin died or was a murdered, assassin, killed. And I was in a sociology class and we were talking about Hurricane Katrina and just how that, how there wasn't help from the federal government to this area. And then of course, we're like studying this. And then at the same time, Trayvon Martin is killed through, with Skittles in his hand. And so that year, I want to say it was either, I want to say 2013 or 2014, we went and I had my parents come to a protest march in LA. 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 And I think that in that you kind of just continue to be aware. And then you hear about Freddy (Gray) and you hear about Eric Garner and all of these folks. And so I think that that has really been something that has stayed with me. We did during our time, and you'll hear from other students about the natural hair show that we had at our campus. And, and you realize that folks are either afraid or ashamed of their hair texture as it is. And so I think that awareness of like what Black Lives Matter and what civil rights did and how they've pushed forward an agenda to say: hey, we are just as human, we’re as dignified as anybody else, and we deserve those same rights and the same ability to flourish and have jobs. And you just see the historical ways in which, again and again, Black people are trying and are succeeding. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 But they are, it's much harder for us to do so. JENKINS: Can you tell me about more about the natural hair show that you mentioned? I've actually never heard of, haven't heard of that yet. BOYD: Yeah. So, on our campus as, so when I was a freshman on the campus we didn't have, our BSU (Black Student Union) was not strong. We didn't have a core group of folks that were involved. We didn't have faculty that were invested either. And so a few students started that mantel my year and by the third year, BSU, like my third year of college, we had put on a natural hair show in which, when we first began as well we didn't have a (university) student union, which now we do have a student union in which people are able to do gather and be a center hub of the campus. And so that first year that it opened, 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 we had this big hair show, Black natural hair show in which students volunteered to model their hair as it is, afros and curls and braids, and was just a celebration, had folks who were hairstylists and had their own businesses come and promote their businesses. And then had students able to walk the catwalk in a way, and then have some uplifting powering music and just a way to come together and celebrate to say, this is our hair texture and this is something to be celebrated that everybody is different, and beautiful in and of their own right. JENKINS: That sounds amazing. Did you guys only have it that year? Is it something that's reoccurred since then? BOYD: Yeah, so it's reoccurred since then, each year. I'm not quite sure, I'm about a few years removed. But I do know that 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Akilah Green, who was the, she had recently that time had, did the big chop. And she was impetus, or she was the go starter for this event. And I know that there's been a few times where she's been called back to participate in the natural hair show that she began. So I want to say that it's at least like the sixth year, if it's still continuing either virtually or not, I'm pretty sure that there have been students that kind of continued it on. But yeah, it's been like an annual thing and it's really a beautiful event. JENKINS: That's so cool. I'm going to definitely check that out. What is your relationship to the BSC (Black Student Center)? Why did you get involved? BOYD: Sure. So, my, in my senior year, my fifth year, I was present... Well, I guess it to go back, in 2014, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 I want to say, I was vice president in the... Actually, sorry, I'll go back even more. I was a representative. I was like a rep, a rep for the College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral, and Social Sciences (in Associated Students Incorporated, student government). And that year they were talking about the creation of a Latino Latina center (Latin /x Center) at our campus, and we were able to vote, and it was a big thing. We've had, only had the Cross-Cultural Center and we had the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) at the campus, and the Latinos, or Latinx population wanted a center. And so it was a big, big conversation. And in the end it had, you know, triumphed and we were, it had passed for the creation of Latino Latina center. You fast forward two years later, and I was a president at the time (of Associated Students Incorporated and there was a huge 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 demonstration. There had been, there's always, or I won't say that there's always, but campuses continue to negotiate diversity and inclusion at their campuses is an ongoing theme across campuses. Not only in California, but across the nation. And at that time, Missouri, which they call a Mizzou University (University of Missouri at Columbia) where it was going through something where racism had occurred on campus toward Black students, but athletes had spoke out about the injustice that was faced on that campus and the president was unresponsive. And so the students had went on protest at Missouri, the student athletes, which is a huge, big deal because at that campus, they had football and that's a big revenue, that the campus was losing by them not performing or not, you know, doing the game. 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 And so you see a lot of other things were happening at that time. And I don't quite remember all of the activities, but something had just happened I want to say at San Jose State University, something had happened at a different university. And the way in which the university treats Black students, welcomes Black students, and invests in Black students was like up in question, across all campuses. And so, as you know, as the student body president at the time, I also was concerned about Black students on our campus and what resources, or lack of thereof, resources for black students was available. At our campus, we do have what's called U Hour, which, from 12 to one (p.m.) on Tuesdays and Thursdays, students for the most part don't have classes. There's not classes resuming at that time. And so it allows for campus life to, for events or for clubs to meet you at that U Hour, University Hour. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And so Black, so for BSU (Black Student Union) on Thursdays, of every other Thursday, I want to say, BSU was able to like gather and meet. And if you're able, if you're on campus on a Thursday and on a, and don't have classes and you're able to participate in BSU. But if you didn't, if you either were a commuter student, which a lot of students are, and maybe your classes are Monday and Wednesdays, or if you had a job that you had to go to, or something you're unable to really participate in the BSU because it's like only this time on the hour. So, and for the most part, you don't even see these Black students, you're not (sneezes) excuse me, running into them on campus because we're so spread out. And so when one day, like we were, the university, the campus university was having a, what is it called? An open forum, a diversity open forum 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 about just the campus itself. It wasn't really even a diversity forum. It was just an open forum of the president (Karen Haynes) talking about the state of the campus and some initiatives that were going forward and students had rose up that day and said, hey, what about Black students? What are you doing about Black students on our campus? We're feeling isolated. We aren't having retention rates. We don't have professors and are feeling unsupported. And so when the campus president heard about it, she said, please address a letter to me, I, this is the first time that I'm hearing about this issue. And so that's kind of where I got involved, as the student government lens is that I also had put forth a resolution in support of a Black Student Center, or a resource center to be a hub where Black students can come, no matter the time or the date of, of the hour. Right. But that there would be somebody dedicated 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 to the inclusion of Black students where you can get resources of paper or have dialogues that are hyper specific and culturally competent around this area or this issue. JENKINS: What was the initial response when you put that proposal in? BOYD: Sure. It was, it was complicated, I guess (laughs) you could say. So, student government at San Marcos is kind of its own institution, its own little bubble. Right. And I had been involved since a representative so by the time my, I was elected for president, it was my third year being involved in student government and the faculty who are, or not faculty, but the staff who are ever-present for us, and students of course come in 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 and wash out. They weren't very supportive of me or my executive board. So we were the first, all-women of color executive board. There's three executives, there's the president, the vice president of student affairs and the vice president of operations, that are all elected and get to sit on the executive committee. And so prior to even this effort, which didn't start until October of the year, and you are elected in, I want to say like April or March of that year, so 2015 March, April is when I'm elected into the presidency. You fast forward to August. And we're trying to talk about what initiatives we have for the year. And I was already thinking, although I didn’t express it, that I 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 wanted to look into the issue of a Black Student Center. And besides that was like a food pantry. And I wanted to look into social media. It's weird that social media is, you know, everywhere. It's like normal, but at the time we didn't have social media presence as, as the student government. And so I wanted to establish us, get a Snapchat, get us an Instagram at the time. And so, we're talking about social media, we're talking about events, we're talking about how can student government be more accessible and visible to the students? Because a lot of times we are a great resource and yet students either aren't taking advantage of the resource or don't really know or understand. And so figuring out ways to do that and be connected to the university more. And we were told that we're difficult women, that we should, that, you know, he wished as the executive director that he had, the SAE board back. And SAE stands for 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 Sigma Alpha Epsilon. And they are a like on our campus at least historically white fraternity of males, and that is the brand of student government. At the time was that mostly it's like fraternity guys who get their own friends to vote for them. And that they weren't inclusive of the campus, they weren't representative of the campus. And you know, ASI kind of just did their own thing over there. So I was trying to bridge that gap and was met with a lot of resistance, from the beginning. And so when the Black Student Center came around and was another thing that was seen as unwelcome, it's all I can say. It's like not understood why we need an additional center when we have the Cross-Cultural Center. Two years ago we just had the Latino center. This is kind of just, you know, doing too much. There's not that many of you, why do you need a whole center, right? 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 The argument for the Latino Latin /x Center was that: we're half the population of this campus, or like a significant amount. We’re a Hispanic Serving Institution, at least deemed that through federal government, through the federal side and so it's like we should be serving our students. And so on the opposite side, it's like, we're a small population, but it's necessary in order for the retention and rate of student success for this to be here. And so I would just say that that's kind of how it was. The Black Student Union at the time had some great Black students who were vocal, who were willing to put their story on the line about the isolation that they feel, about the microaggressions that are experienced, and the lack of support, but they weren't organized in a way to understand how, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 how to speak with the president, how to talk to the vice president, the vice, the Dean of Students, Student Affairs. And so I think that I was able to bridge that understanding of working with the administration to forward our goals, because there are, there were faculty who were supportive of this, that this initiative and idea, and were helping to craft the resolution language and trying to whip up the votes for other students to also buy-in. As the, as a woman of color and executive board, executive board of color, it was great to have that camaraderie within our executive board, but of course the board is much larger than just us (officers) and it gets much more diverse than folks of color. So we knew that it was an uphill battle because there were, I don't remember at the time how many representatives, but of course you got to get, you know, half plus 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 one. JENKINS: So it sounds like there was a lot of pushback. So how was it when they approved the Black Student Center? What was that like? BOYD: Sure. So it was, it was a huge meeting. So the first, so basically the students, you know, spoke out. The president (Karen Haynes) said that she would look into the issue. But I believe that there was a caveat about going through student government or what does the student voice have to be, say, since we represent. So then I was like: my baton to start, my work. So I started my work as well. Fast forward to February of 2016. The executive director (of Associated Students Incorporated) that I had mentioned before is out on leave. He's no longer working for the student government. We have a new person who just started in February, who is a retired annuitant from San Diego State University, and we're at this huge meeting. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 If you know anything about student government, we don't have a lot of people at our meetings. People are not interested. (laughs) And our meetings, we have them on Fridays, afternoon and our campus is a commuter campus and nobody's on campus on Friday. On that day we moved our meeting from our small room that we had into a much larger room in the USU in the (University) Student Union to accommodate for the amount of folks. Public comment. Was a lot of public comment was happening. There was concerns about some of the language that was in the resolution, the resolution language, and there was process questions about the Student Advocacy Committee and their recommendation to the board. It was like, just a lot of, just a lot. And so you have students that are speaking out to say, we want this, this item to pass and there was other, you know, environmental stuff. And I think even the food pantry (Cougar Pantry) was like that day as well. So just like a lot of 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 agenda items. And so during that time, we had a student who represented the College of Business and Administration, and he was kind of adamantly against this Black Student Center. And so during the open discussion around the bill in which people can make amendments to the language of the resolution if they want or anything, he was basically saying that slavery didn't exist. So, slavery was a part of the resolution for good or for bad. It started at, and any resolution kind of goes big and it goes narrow down to where, whereas this is, for these reasons this. And so he was like, slavery doesn’t exist, that the industrial revolution was the reason why we are a great country 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 that we are. And so, you know, it of course is a touchy subject to say the least. And so students were upset and outraged that he made the comment and all of this stuff. But in the end, I think that that comment actually helped propel more than back up for students who were still on the fence, of student government representatives that were on the fence. We didn't know if we had enough votes for the resolution at the time, but I wanted to at least put the issue up. There had been a lot of turmoil within the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) and just with the students. And so I just wanted to say, okay, it's on the floor, let's have a full discussion about what you'd like to see what you want, than for us to continue to have these like sidebar conversations. And so we went up for a vote and in the end, it passed. I think 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 that student, that represented (College of) Business was the only student who voted against the bill, or the resolution. And so, I mean, it was celebratory, right? It's exciting because, we didn't know what was going to happen and to, to get so far, that initiative had started basically in October when they spoke out to the president. And so to have that, to have that in February, which is a kind of quick deadline, but like not that quick, was great. And it was because students, and myself, and other people were prepared to know how to do our job, with or without a staff helping us to craft language or go through the order. JENKINS: That's amazing. It sounds like you put a lot of work into doing this. So we talked about that. So you were definitely a leader on this project. Was there anybody 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 else who you saw as like a great contributor to the Black Student Center and including any unsung heroes that we may not know about? BOYD: Sure. So, you know, after, after the resolution was passed that, you know, it doesn't stop there, right. There has to be a flushing out of what, what is the Center going to do? We have established that there's a problem, we've established that we're willing as student voice to put our, our stamp of approval to say that, deem this statewide, or a campus-wide problem. And then so there was a lot, there was then, the president then appointed a task force to study the issue and to come up with a proposal of what the student, what the Black resource name would be, where it would be hosted, what services would it 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 have, and all of that good stuff. And so, as ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), I was able to be the representative there. And then as part of the BSU (Black Student Union), Jamaéla Johnson, who was actually the Vice President of Student Affairs (in ASI) at the time, but was also a really big BSU - I don't know what her office title was in the BSU. But she was a part of BSU. One thing that for me, I wasn't able to be like as an active member. And I think because of the work that I had, aside from campus that Thursday hour was constantly taken away from me or used in some way. But I always tried to stay in contact with whoever the president was and try to do whatever, you know, cross collaborations. I was president of like some other orgs and so tried to like just align efforts, but I wasn't like super involved. So 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 as BSU representative, Jamaéla Johnson was there and we were able to really speak at the table with the administrators of Student Affairs and, I forget everybody who was at the table, but everybody who the president had assigned to this task force to really discuss it. Louis Adamsel, which was, he was really integral and helpful during this process. Brandy Williams was one of the students. Danii Thornton and, I forget her sister's name (Darneisha Thornton). They both started with a D but the Thorton twins were really helpful in getting the initiative and the voice out, and Dilcie Perez who at the time was the Dean of Students was really helpful, too. And there was a lot of faculty who were, Sharon Elise 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 was great. Freddy Avalos, another professor that was great during it. Karen Guzman (now Kai Guzman). The Latino students who, MEChA is the organization that had passed the Latino center resolution. And they came in support and stood alongside Black students as, as we were advancing the idea of a Black Student Center, they were there as well to help, advocate and support and say that this is just as important. JENKINS: I love that it was such a community effort. That's really amazing for the Center. What, were you at the BSC’s grand opening? BOYD: Yes, I Was there. So – JENKINS: Tell me about it. BOYD: So what? JENKINS: Tell me about it. BOYD: Oh yeah, sure. So 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during that issue, so I think that, you know, Mizzou and everything that their president had been fired from the campus, he had actually left their campus, and this was the same time, allowed the president (Karen Haynes) to be like more listening to students. You don't want to be the president who's not listening to students when you're seeing the consequences of that in firing on other campuses, right? And then in February during the same time that, you know, we're pushing in advancing and it's Black History Month, our diversity officer was also let go. Nobody knew why our diversity officer was let go in February but they were also let go. And so that helped kind of propel as well, this angst around diversity. Other students were kind of upset that our diversity officer’s gone one day and he was a really good champion for these issues, right. We're talking about, 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 you know institutionalizing some of it. And of course he's only one man. So yes, having a center with somebody else for programming or anything as well, it was important. And so I also just wanted to give that context, just to say that was also like part of the storm that helped create the Center, the birth of the Center. And so the diversity office was also like an unsung hero within that, that also kept students sane and helpful. But so that was that year and we graduated many other students who were a part of it ; Jamaéla Johnson, myself had both graduated and moved on in our lives. But excitingly enough, there was space in the (University Student) Union that they were able to retrofit. When we left, we talked about what resources we thought would be important for the (Black) Student Center, and where we identified some places. But it wasn't anything set in stone in that the president (Karen Haynes) got to identify and 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 have the last word on that. And so, fast forward a year and the food pantry (Cougar Pantry) that I had already, that had passed uncontroversially. Which was good, but was controversial before, and this had passed. And so when we got invited back to campus to say that it's actually opening, that there's been identified place in the (University Student) Union, it was, it was much exciting. I was in, I want to say that I had already relocated to Sacramento by this time, which is Northern California. And so I flew back down, and they were just nice enough to give, I guess, space for myself, Akilah Green, who was the diversity and inclusion, I want to say, student representative on the student government. And she had been doing a lot of BSU (Black Student Union) work as well. And Jamaéla Johnson, 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 all three of us were able to come back to campus to see the grand opening, to speak a little bit about our experience and our joy that, you know, to see it to come to life. And it was great because, again, the (University Student) Union was fairly new as we were exiting campus and so to see just how much campus life had grown and how much the Union had became a hub for students to converse. And to know that the Black Student Center was a part of that life, that it wasn't in a corner back by Markstein (Hall), which is where our meetings used to be, but that it was at the corner hub with all of the other centers there, was great to see that there was an identified place, that there was Black faces, like in the same room, and that there was artwork that was reflective and that there was a whole programming and director 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 at the time. And to see it kind of come 360 was great because you always want to hopefully leave something better than what you found it, leave some type of legacy. And I really did feel that if we weren't in the position, if it was some other folks in student government, then I think that they might not have passed the resolution, or it would have been something that was dragged on and maybe unfinished. And I think that the effectiveness of coalition building, of advocacy, of people having different levels of involvement, from either protesting down or from having allies at the Dean of Students, really made it really effective, as well as a national climate that's saying: hey, like, we have to keep paying attention to this, that we can't just let it be some one-off thing, but that, this is something that has been historical since when students weren't even Black students, weren't allowed to be on campuses. Since we built our own Black campuses, right? To see this happen and 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 acknowledged was a really great moment for I think everybody— JENKINS: You've mentioned a lot about like, the work you guys put in to see the Center come to life. Can you tell me more about the early focus of BSCs initiatives, programming events and like the focus of the Center itself? BOYD: Sure. So for us, we thought it was important that there was programming specifically for like uplifting and focusing on Black students and dialogue, Black women. We had like a Gender Equity Center, but a lot of times women of color can fall through the cracks of women’s initiatives. And so it was really important that there was programming, that there was printing so that students are able to print for free at the campus center, that there would be like a refrigerator 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 for students to have their have meals refrigerated there, and be a place where people can frequently just come and like, hang out so that if you're in between classes that you can learn or meet other students of Black descent, hopefully, and of course anybody is welcome to come in and learn something. But I think that that was most important that the significance of having both resources there, but also just having a communal space in which folks know that it is a safe place to be where hopefully the microaggressions or the frustrations of campus that you might go through could be a place where, like a safe haven for you to kind of come touch base and then be able to flourish within the campus later. And I think that that was like a part of the focus ; have some concrete resources, have one person that's dedicated to programming there, and 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 having culturally competent program and then have just like the physical space of saying like, this is a Black Student Center for you built by you, hopefully hiring students, as well, to shape it, form it, was what we had expected and hoped. JENKINS: In your opinion, have they succeeded and, what has been your favorite event that they've had or program? BOYD: Yeah. You know, it's unfortunate cause I don't really get to reap the benefits or the fruits of the labor. And I know from a distance about what's happening maybe on campus or what's happening with the Black Student Center. But I haven't been super involved since I kind of just like planted the seed. 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 And so I don't know what events that they have done that were really successful or really impactful in the years that I left. JENKINS: I'm sorry to hear that. (laughs) This question, I guess you would be able to answer: what has been the impact of the BSU (BSC, Black Student Center) or, you know, petitioning for the BSU on your, on you personally? BOYD: Can you repeat the question? JENKINS: What has been the impact of the BSU (BSC) since you haven't been able to like experience it? What has been the impact of being like a leader, a leading advocate for the BSU (BSC) on you personally? BOYD: Yeah, I mean, I think it's formative of my whole trajectory of what I do now, to be honest. I currently, well, I guess what I was just doing, but it kind of falls into, I just got a new job. But I'm doing policy and government affairs 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 right now, but I've been doing, I was a legislative aide for four years. And it was during San Marcos at a luncheon, a diversity and inclusion luncheon that Assembly Member Shirley Weber, who represents the 79th district in San Diego, came to our campus to speak around diversity, around change, around all things diversity. And so she spoke there and she talked about her legislation that she was working on. And I said: I want to work for her one day, right? And it's because she advances. She's a Africana Studies Professor, we didn't have Ethnic Studies on our campus at the time. We only had, they were starting a minor, an Ethnic Studies minor. And it was a dabble of if you took, you know, this sociology class or if you took this communications class and you could like kind of work it into being an Ethnic Studies minor. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 And just working towards issues that matter on our campus and saying, you know what? We don't have this, we should have this, we need this. It's something that could have improved the way that I had experienced the campus. It was great because I now apply that to the policies in which I advanced, and the legislature. And I ended up working for Assembly Member Weber, during my time. And so we were able to via my inexperience, it's almost like what I don't have or what I don't see is what I want to advocate for the most ; and so this past year in 2020, we established a graduation requirement, and a requirement for all CSU (California State University) campuses to have ethnic studies on their campus and to have a graduation requirement for all CSU students to at least take one 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 ethnic studies course before they graduate. Within the four historically, recognized ethnic studies demographics, which is Native American, Chicano, Latino, Asian, API, and then an Africana or African studies. And so that's a, it's a huge, it was three years. It wasn't just like one and done, but it was impactful for my story, right. So because I advocated for the Black Student Center and all of these things and was a part of seeing how coalition building advocacy, how having folks in power works is it's, I apply that every day to like legislation as I'm trying to either advocate for ethnic studies or advocate for exonerated folks to have access to housing or, pregnant and, pregnant and parenting pupils in K through 12 and their access to education and not being pushed out. I'm asking folks: hey, like, please, it's unfortunate, but 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 please tell your story to help paint a picture for folks so that they can understand what it is on the ground level. And then we're talking with legislators who have the ability and finance and budget to also say like, you know what we need to invest in this, this costs this much, but this is why this is so important. And so I think that has been super impactful to how I look at policy change, how I look at change in general, and the experiences that I'm having. It's like, it's not so again, so happenstance, right? It's like people aren't in the room where people, we haven't had the right people or the right time and the national climate to take action. We, in Sacramento, a student – person – had, Stefan Clark was shot, right. In Sacramento that same year that I'm out here my first year. And he, his cell phone is mistaken as a gun. 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 That year is when we like, ran a use of force bill, right. To say that officers should shoot when it's necessary, not when they're just scared. And it's the same kind of process of getting folks on the ground, getting folks here and there, and putting in positions and then raising it, on a national level, to have that dialogue and the outrage and stuff. And then we can start ushering in more change. And it's unfortunate that that's kind of, it takes so much from so many different angles, but that's almost how it always is in order to best change. And it's just like, are you willing to continue to raise the issue again and again? JENKINS: Your work is very inspiring. It's so amazing that you also got to work with somebody you like, nope, I'm going to work with her. Like, that's really amazing. BOYD: Absolutely. JENKINS: 00:48:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 So that's actually all I have for you because the rest of the questions are mainly like if you were at the BSC, experiencing it, that kind of thing. But my last question is, are there any questions that I should have asked that I have not? BOYD d: You know, I don't think so. I can't think of any question that you didn't or that I didn't touch upon it. I would just, yeah, I don't think so. JENKINS: Okay. So, thank you so much for participating and the Black Student Center Oral History Project. I, we all appreciate it so much and we, thanks. Thanks for being here. I'm gonna’ stop recording now. BOYD: Okay. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; 30&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boyd, Tiffaney. Interview April 15th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos -- Students Activism, Student Black experience in America Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer, Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elmer Royce Williams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;Korean War;Naval aviator;Dogfight OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 SC027-074 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Korean War ; Naval aviator ; Dogfight Elmer Royce Williams Jason Beyer, Marilyn Huerta, Adel Bautista Moving image WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d6799d074d31395fe8b6205edd027f3f.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 50 Military Background Williams lists his years of service, branches of service, the highest rank he attained, and the wars he participated in. Navy ; Army ; Navy Captain ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War 0 76 Childhood Williams describes growing up in rural South Dakota, where he lived on a farm and worked in a grocery store. Wilmar, South Dakota ; rural ; farm ; grocery store ; World War I 0 136 Military Enlistment Williams describes his decision to enlist in the Army. He was always fond of aviation, and the military provided the best training. enlistment ; Army ; aviation 0 221 Military Training Williams reflects on his military training. Includes his worst experience, his first assignment after basic training, his views on instructors, his switch from the Army to the Navy, and his promotions. training ; bootcamp ; promotion ; instructor ; Army ; Navy 0 600 Adaptation to Military Lifestyle Williams describes the highs and lows of adapting to military service and mentions the wartime conflicts he was part of. World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; family ; military lifestyle ; stateside service ; wartime service 0 751 The Korean War and the Dogfight Williams tells his remarkable story about surviving a solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Includes contextual details about the Korean War as well as descriptions of the political aftermath. Williams describes how some historians have written about the event. dogfight ; Korean War ; Soviet Union ; combat ; Washington ; Eisenhower ; Admiral Briscoe ; history 0 2141 Keeping Military Secrets Williams describes how difficult it was to keep his experiences secret in order to preserve national security. He recalls seeing reports on military events that he knew to be inaccurate or untrue. secrets ; military ; history ; censorship ; lies 0 2180 Interactions With Local Cultures During Wartime Service Although most of his service was in aircraft, Williams describes a war-torn Seoul. Shares stories of how Korean political and military leaders continue to honor him with awards for his service. Korea ; Medal of Honor ; Seoul ; Eisenhower ; culture 0 2282 Comradery and Recreation During Service Williams describes the strong bonds he built with members of his squadron. He also describes recreational activities, including volleyball and reading. comradery ; friendship ; squadron ; recreation ; volleyball ; reading ; religion ; prayer 0 2458 Injury, End of Service, and Return Home Williams experienced a plane crash in San Diego. He recalls how he dealt with the injuries that would eventually lead him to retire from the navy. retirement ; injury ; plane crash ; hospital ; San Diego ; surgery 0 2774 Return to Civilian Life After leaving the service, Williams gets his master’s degree and works in business. He describes his experience with the GI Bill, working in law, joining veterans' organizations, and keeping friendships. college ; business ; GI Bill ; law ; veterans’ organizations ; friendship 0 2949 Life Lessons from Military Service Williams describes life lessons he gained from military service. His recent nomination for the Medal of Honor has kept him busy with speaking engagements. He is also the president of a local congregation. He encourages people to stay positive, find community, and treat their civic responsibilities seriously. Medal of Honor ; life lessons ; reflections ; congregation ; president ; community ; civic responsibilities 0 3126 Involvement in North County San Diego Community Williams describes his involvement in the North County San Diego community, particularly in the city of Escondido. He also describes some of his day-to-activities with his family. Escondido, California ; community ; family ; Ikebana ; shooting ; home building 0 3271 Reflections on the Experiences of Veterans Williams wishes more people understood that veterans are kind people who serve their nation and are an important productive part of their community. He says military service taught him that life is a team sport. He recommends having a family and says family has been important to him. veterans ; family ; nation ; military service ; community 0 Oral history Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:50.774 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Elmer Royce Williams. Today's date is Friday, November 8, 2024. The general location where this interview is being conducted is at the Williams residence in Escondido, California. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview include Marilyn Huerta ; camera operator, Adel Bautista ; Jason Beyer, the interviewer ; Elmer Royce Williams, the interviewee. And the purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name. 00:00:50.774 --> 00:00:53.435 Elmer Royce Williams. 00:00:53.435 --> 00:00:56.045 What branch of service you were in? 00:00:56.045 --> 00:01:04.474 I started in the Army for a couple years, then I went into the Navy. I served 37 years. 00:01:04.474 --> 00:01:07.204 What was the highest rank that you attained? 00:01:07.204 --> 00:01:10.394 Navy Captain O-6. 00:01:10.394 --> 00:01:13.185 What war or conflicts were you a part of? 00:01:13.185 --> 00:01:16.545 World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. 00:01:16.545 --> 00:01:23.265 That's the easiest part of this interview. Now it's time for the questions. Where were you born? 00:01:23.265 --> 00:01:29.075 Wilmot, South Dakota in 1925. 00:01:29.075 --> 00:01:33.385 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:33.385 --> 00:01:45.745 My father was in World War I. My brother was in the same wars that I was. He retired as a Marine Colonel. 00:01:45.745 --> 00:01:50.504 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:50.504 --> 00:02:00.715 Yes, uh, I was in a rural area and I worked on farms. My father was a grocer, and I worked in the store. 00:02:00.715 --> 00:02:06.734 What was it like for you working in the store and growing up on a farm? 00:02:06.734 --> 00:02:16.645 Well, I think it was the standard of the day. And, it suited me. 00:02:16.645 --> 00:02:21.995 When and why did you choose to join the military? 00:02:21.995 --> 00:02:53.555 My first airplane ride was when I was four years old. I was enthused and my dreams—well, this brought me toward aviation. And, in those days, the best organized, publicized aviation was military. And I sort of switched my dreams in that direction. 00:02:53.555 --> 00:02:56.254 Did you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:56.254 --> 00:03:01.324 I enlisted when I was 16. 00:03:01.324 --> 00:03:05.925 And which branch did you enter, and why did you choose that branch? 00:03:05.925 --> 00:03:42.064 Army. And primarily it was National Guard that was nationalized. I had two cousins in it. They deployed to North Africa. My two cousins were killed. I didn't go because of my age, I think. So I continued to serve and I trained and spent time in Camp Ripley in Little Falls, Minnesota. 00:03:42.064 --> 00:03:50.224 The earlier days of service. For your earlier days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:03:50.224 --> 00:04:15.034 Primarily infantry training. Rifle range, cross country marches. And I was trained as a drill instructor, which came in handy for the unit I was attached to. 00:04:15.034 --> 00:04:27.824 What was your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training or in school. 00:04:27.824 --> 00:05:09.653 Well, I'll say interesting. We had a cross country toward dusk and it took us through some of the lakes and ponds in Minnesota and swarmed with mosquitoes. In that it was night, we had to orient our maps with a flashlight but not be seen. So I took my poncho, put it over my head, and studied the map. Trapped about 30 some mosquitoes when I did that. And that was unpleasant. 00:05:09.653 --> 00:05:12.425 So that was probably—I would say—your worst part of the training. 00:05:12.425 --> 00:05:16.584 Yeah, that was (laughs). 00:05:16.584 --> 00:05:21.694 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:05:21.694 --> 00:05:54.653 The unit that was located at Ortonville, Minnesota. It's, uh, at the south tip of Big Stone Lake, which is 36 miles long and is a prominent part of the western border of Minnesota. It comes straight up from Iowa, and it hits Big Stone Lake and makes a jog. 00:05:54.653 --> 00:06:00.144 Do you recall your instructors while you were in school? 00:06:00.144 --> 00:06:08.795 Not by name. I'm not good at remembering names. But yes, I recall my training. 00:06:08.795 --> 00:06:11.605 Were they good instructors in your opinion? 00:06:11.605 --> 00:07:12.264 I thought so. Problem we had was we were on the rifle range with ammunition from World War I stored in Panama, which is moist and not good conditions. So we were advised that if we had a problem and it didn't fire—hang fire, we called it—to not open the breach but call the sergeant instructor. I had one that was poor performance. Pull the trigger and it fired, but the bullet landed in the grass about 10 feet in front of me. But down the line on the rifle range was a man that didn't follow instructions. And as he opened the breach, it fired and he lost an eye. 00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:25.795 Did you qualify for equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radio, weapons? And if yes, what was the training like with that equipment? 00:07:25.795 --> 00:07:43.154 Well, definitely airplane. When I switched over to the Navy, I was in the aviation cadet program. And if I completed it completely, I would be on my way flying fighter aircraft off aircraft carriers. 00:07:43.154 --> 00:07:50.754 What was the switch like for you, and how did it make you feel switching from the Army over into the Navy? 00:07:50.754 --> 00:08:09.345 It's what I wanted. I wanted to be a carrier pilot, and this offered an avenue, and I was happy about it. 00:08:09.345 --> 00:08:17.024 Did you receive any promotions, and could you tell me about them during your time in the Navy? 00:08:17.024 --> 00:09:03.595 Yes, in the Navy I had sort of a head start going through bootcamp and was a company commander. And that followed me through aviation cadet training, as well. Because I was a corporal in the Army, I had training at, uh—gave me kind of a head start—And then in a long career I got commissioned, and I moved up the ladder in normal sequencing to an O-6 position. 00:09:03.595 --> 00:09:16.315 What would you say was the biggest difference between your enlisted promotions and your officer promotions? 00:09:16.315 --> 00:10:00.965 As an officer it was more wide-ranging at where instead of being a specialist, except for flying, was broad and personnel management. But records and maintenance training—many avenues and responsibility at a higher level—to where, eventually, as command of a ship it is a rather interesting and wide-range responsibility. 00:10:00.965 --> 00:10:08.865 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:08.865 --> 00:10:11.835 Being away from my wife and family. 00:10:11.835 --> 00:10:14.335 Why do you think that was? 00:10:14.335 --> 00:10:52.565 'Cause over long periods of time, it left my wife managing three sons. All different ages, different schools. I can't imagine how she was able to maintain the driving schedule. And when I retired she said, "Okay, now you do the income tax." So she had a wide range of responsibility. And unfortunately, I would love to have been partnering in it, but I was gone so much of the time. 00:10:52.565 --> 00:10:59.125 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:59.125 --> 00:11:25.325 Friendships. Harmony. You're part of a team. You get to know and like one another. Trust. Lean on. Depend. And, um—I think all aspects of military are—you're working with teamwork. 00:11:25.325 --> 00:11:37.924 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:11:37.924 --> 00:12:08.384 Well, it was a variety of things. Often schools—even if you were just with a unit—it is mostly training in the fighter business. We would train over in the desert to fire rockets and bombs and guns and hit the target. Coordinate with the rest of the team. Prepare for combat. 00:12:08.384 --> 00:12:14.294 During your wartime service, what wartime conflicts were you a part of. 00:12:14.294 --> 00:12:31.294 World War II—I didn't actually get shot at by enemy—uh, Korea, Vietnam. I was rather heavily involved in those wars. 00:12:31.294 --> 00:12:36.365 Where and when did you serve in the Korean conflict? 00:12:36.365 --> 00:13:11.705 1952-53 on an aircraft carrier normally operating at the 38th parallel in support of ground forces and destruction of enemy logistics, trains, trucks, ox carts. But of course, air support for our fighters on the ground. Except for one novel incident that I got involved in. 00:13:11.705 --> 00:13:14.995 Do you care discussing that incident? 00:13:14.995 --> 00:29:24.605 Sure. Admiral (Joseph) Jocko Clark was Task Force 77, which was on site on the USS Missouri and was running the naval operations. That was basically the eastern half of Korea, both north and south. And the distance between targets—some of it was very important manufacturing and storage, and logistics is the heart of wars. So our job was to stifle, destroy their capability. And we couldn't get to all the targets because of distance. So Admiral Clark formed a task force of three carriers and probably twenty-some other ships, destroyers, including his battleship. And we moved north off the city of Ch'ŏngjin, which is about a hundred miles south of the Soviet Union and Vladivostok. And we operated there and could then reach all the other targets that we normally wanted to but couldn't. And, uh, I was on the first mission in the morning and we hit targets in a city called Hoeryong. It is right on the Yalu River, which is the border between the Soviet Union and North Korea. These operations stirred up the Soviets. We didn't go to their territory, which is having such—military operation that close to them got them very excited, and they launched lots of airplanes and the radio chatter became heavy and everything, you know, they were very concerned. Well, upon completion of that, I went back and landed on the aircraft carrier, and I was told to get lunch and get ready, and I was going to go off on the next combat air patrol. When the first flight, the weather was good and we were operating pretty much in clear air. In the meanwhile, a blizzard moved in and the bottom of the clouds were around 500 feet and the tops were at 12,000 feet. So we briefed. I got lunch. Briefed. We launched. And we rendezvoused four aircraft below the clouds, and then climbed two for an assignment above the clouds. And while in and on our way, our combat information center notified us that there were inbound bogies, meaning unidentified aircraft. They could be friendly or enemy. We didn't know. Well, as we popped on top of the clouds, I could see, coming from the north, seven contrails in formation headed right at us. I didn't particularly diagnose who they might be, but they were coming from the Soviet Union direction. Well, as they, uh, were getting near us, the leader of the flight had a warning light that his—well, engine warning problem came on and he was directed to take his wingman and return. We would stay over at the task force. So that left me and my wingman to handle the rest of the mission. So, they said to proceed and intercept. So I charged my guns and made everything ready for war and led the two of us climbing in their directions. Well, as they came over, they reversed and headed back from whence they came and out-distanced me. So when we got to 26,000 feet, they were probably 50 miles north of us and—extreme altitude, 50 some thousand feet, I'm sure—but making contrails, so they were easily sighted. But they split into two groups and turned away from each other and started diving out of that altitude. And when they left the contrail level, it was just plain sight to the airplanes. And I no longer could see them and reported that to the ship. And they had also lost sight in that it was a smaller target and they didn't hold 'em on the radar anymore. So I was directed to reverse course and set up a barricade between the last sighting of the aircraft—which I had identified as MiGs (Mikoyan and Gurevic), which meant enemy—and to patrol between the last sighting and the task force. Well, in that turn, four of them came in sort of head-on—ten o'clock position, all firing—and I knew the game was on. So as they passed, I made a hard turn and ended up on the tail of their last guy. And after a short burst, he fell out of formation and started going down, and my wingman left me and followed that aircraft on down. And so he was out of the fight. And I'm alone with the other three airplanes that dove in the other direction—now joining the group. So I am one against six. So they climbed sharply above me to a rate I couldn't maintain, but I was pointed at them and trailing, and they turned around and came back at me as I'm the target. And I was intending to encounter the guy that just lost his wingman, but I lost him in the sun, and I saw the other two already lined up coming at me. So I switched my aim and aimed at the lead aircraft who was already shooting with larger caliber guns and probably having capability to shoot in an encounter at a greater range. Well, when I sighted on them, I was in range and I fired a short burst. And he stopped, fired, and turned away. And I had later on learned enough information that I have surmised that he was probably hit. The other guy, his wingman, now was coming directly at me and shooting, and I turned and sighted on him. And when I was set ready with him, my target, I fired a burst and he quit firing. But he didn't maneuver. He just kept coming and went directly under my airplane. And I was hosing him all the way. So he was definitely going down. Probably killed. So they had now passed me, but the other three planes came in from the other direction and now they were all split into individuals and taking their turns attacking me. Well, my attention at that point was primarily my six o'clock tail position where they were taking turns on me. And I was their target, and my job was to spoil their aim and survive the attack. And as a good pilot, they often made the run, and then they pulled up abruptly to get back in position to make another run, um, at a rate that I couldn't follow. But there was another guy right behind him, so I was pretty much full-time defensive. Occasionally they made a mistake. One of them flew in front of me and I got on and I hit him close in, and pieces of the airplane were coming off, and I had to maneuver to avoid hitting him. Well, it went on like that for thirty-five minutes. Longer than any other such mission I ever heard of—ever. And they had kept up, and I occasionally had the opportunity to have the sights on 'em and shoot. I at one point was on the tail of one, and he was burning, smoking and going down—slowing. And I was going to give an extra burst, but I was out of ammunition. And I looked around and that's the first time I straightened out that much and didn't pay attention behind me and (he was) on me—right on my tail. So I maneuvered hard, and he kept firing, and he hit me with a 37 millimeter, which is an anti-aircraft size ammunition. And it went into the wing butt on the starboard side of my airplane and exploded in the accessory section of the engine, right mid-airplane and shrapnel everywhere. And it severed the cable connecting to the rudder. So I no longer had that control. And it destroyed all the electrical and—not all of it—but all of the hydraulics. So I had a hydraulic controlled N1s (low speed spools). So I had very little control of that, mainly elevator. But luckily out-maneuvering left me pointed directly at where the task force was, so I didn't have to do a lot of turning to head toward that blizzard and the clouds at 12,000 feet. And this guy settled right on my tail, and 300 feet or so—ideal range to shoot me down—and he was just firing away with all of his guns. But I was using my elevator and I would jam it forward then pull it back. And I'm doing this sort of thing. (Williams gestures up and down). So I'm seeing the bullets go under me, then over me. And this just kept out until I got into the clouds. Heavy clouds that he lost sight of me. I lost sight of him. And since I was damaged and the airplane wasn't flying right—was auto rigged—I did a little testing to see what my survival rate might be. And I was too far away from the task force to eject. I had planned on ejecting, but there wouldn't have been anybody there to rescue me. And that was winter time, the conditions of the water and all. And even with the immersion suit that I was wearing flying, I wouldn't lasted more than maybe 18 minutes. So I stuck with the airplane and kept on track to get to the task force, hoping that I could do something to get rescued there. I didn't believe I'd be able to get landed aboard an aircraft carrier in these conditions, and the conditions of the weather and all. But I got undone and was coming in, under the clouds. So I'm visible to them, and unfortunately they were general quarters. And for all the ships there, that means guns free if they have an unidentified target, hasn't been labeled friendly, they're cleared to shoot. Well, the coordination had broken down between air control and the gunnery liaison people. So they shot at me. And my commanding officer had just taken off to be my relief, to go up and be on the air patrol. And saw what was happening and called them off. Said, he's friendly, and they stopped firing. So I started coordinating with the landing signal officer on the Oriskany, the carrier I was flying from and making plans for what's next. And it looked like I might be able to at least approach the carrier, which means there would probably be rescue forces all over the place. And I still was just barely hopeful I would land on the ship. Well, they were loaded with all the ships aft, the tail end, on a straight deck carrier. So they had to all be moved to the front part of the flight deck to provide space for me to land. That took a while. And I used that time to position myself as best as I could to be where I should be when I got the signal to land. And I tested the airplane at that time, and I found out that it wouldn't fly below 200 miles an hour, 170 knots. So I informed him of that. And they talked to the commanding officer of the carrier and he said, "Bring him in. Any speed he wants." Strong winds from the storm and the ship could do 30 knots. So not a problem speedwise, but alignment was another thing. So when I got the signal to land, I was lined up with the ship into the wind for landing, but I couldn't line up going down the deck to make a landing. I would've come across the deck, which is just a short distance, and I'd (have) gone over into the ocean. At least I would be near rescue forces if I lived through the crash. So I was coming in, doing the best I could, and the captain of the ship saw my plight and, being an aviator, he knew the problem—the only time I ever heard of it. But he turned the ship and lined it up with me, and I landed to catch the number three wire, which is perfect. So I'm back aboard with a whole lot of holes in an airplane, but I'm safe. 00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:31.724 So what happened once you landed and had to—did you hear from Washington or— 00:29:31.724 --> 00:35:41.905 Yes, I went to the ready room. The ship was at general quarters. All the pilots that weren't flying were in the ready room, they're stationed in those conditions. And as I came in—I was surprised—they were all smiling, beaming, and no one's saying anything. And my next job is to be debriefed by the intelligence officer. So I asked him, "What's going on here?" And he says, "I had them all pledge that they wouldn't say anything until I got through debriefing. So we went to the debrief area, and he didn't start talking. I said, "What's going on?" He said, "We are waiting for the flight leader." Well, the flight leader was already over the ship and had nothing to do with this combat. But he waited for him, and when he came in with the last one to land, they'd eaten up a fair amount of time. And on the squat box or radio communication between other units of the ship, the intelligence center is calling in Mac, our intelligence officer, "Get in here, Washington's on the line and they want answers. Right now!" We didn't know anything because the intelligence center would send things on our little—sort of TV—saying that I was engaged and so forth. So they knew that. And they knew I was hit. But not the rest of the story. I didn't know! Actually my attention was that hitting somebody and then diverting it immediately to my next problem. So when the whole flight got back, he started with the flight leader to debrief. And then his wingman, which had a little to say—important. And then to me. And I got a little into it of what little I knew. And he just broke it right up. They just kept—"Mac, get in here, get in here." And so he had to make a report, and he made it up, and it wasn't true. And that became Navy history. They don't wanna' know the truth. All—moving on. It's our last line on the combat line, and we're going into Yokosuka for repairs, replenishment—R&R (rest and recuperation)—and I was ordered to report to Admiral Briscoe, the Senior Navy Admiral in the Pacific—Western Pacific. And when I—oh, on the way down there I saw an aviation boatswain's mate. They're the people that handled the aircraft on the carrier. And I told him who I was and I'd been the pilot and I'd like to take a last look at the airplane before going ashore. He said, "I'm sorry, sir, but we pushed it over the side." And so what I heard was that they robbed it of usable parts, and so forth, and got rid of it. Turns out later, that might not be true. But that's what I was told. So I met with Admiral Briscoe—and I knew his aides and stuff—and they brought me to the door. He said, "The Admiral's waiting." And sure enough I did. He closed the door and he said, "Now, what you're about to hear, you could never tell anybody ever." And that sealed it as far as straightening the record—I just couldn't talk about it. But I learned that we had a new capability called NSA (National Security Agency), and a lot of people say no such agency. They were very closed mouth and don't share information except probably with the President and a few others. But they were on the line on a cruiser right off the coast of Vladivostok, where the base from which these MiGs came. And they wanted that young man to know that he got at least three. Okay, but I can't tell anybody. So I didn't for fifty some years. But in the meantime, Soviet Union broke up, and the Russians out of Moscow came up with a story in 1992 talking about this mission, and they put the names of four that were shot down that day. And then a naval historian came up with a book about something "on the Yalu," covering the big engagement during the Korean War, which was mainly the Air Force half, which was on a daily routine of trying to shoot with another down. But it covered this incident. And of the seven, only one returned. And that's not well known, but that's what the history book says. And where was I going with this? Well, concluded my debrief with Admiral Briscoe and went back to the ship, and in short order learned that President Eisenhower had pledged that if elected, he would go to Korea and see firsthand how things are and what he ought to do about it. And then he learned about this and he says, I want to see Royce Williams. And so as he came over, I was set up to meet him. 00:35:41.905 --> 00:35:47.505 Was it hard for you to maintain that secrecy for so many years? 00:35:47.505 --> 00:36:20.000 It was initially 'cause I just saw a bunch of lies and they put it out as though I said—or Rolands, the wingman, or Middleton, the wingman of the flight leader—all having been in the area, but they gave them credit for things they never did and they never personally admitted that they did it until they got used to it. It sounded so darn good that they played along and abused history. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:31.043 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during either your deployment in Korea or in Vietnam? 00:36:31.043 --> 00:38:02.315 Albeit in an aircraft carrier, I didn't have a lot of opportunity to see others. I was amazed and interested in the visit with President Eisenhower and his staffs and all in Seoul. It was such a battered city. They had two bridges crossing—the river goes through the middle of town—and they were both in the water. I went back and visited after that. They got 22 bridges almost per block crossing the river. And it's just beautiful. What an amazing change in the geography. But I do wanna' say that the Koreans—I can't believe this—have told me they think I saved their nation. And they have been acting like that. And their president came over here, and I met with him, and they presented me with their Medal of Honor. And I've just been inundated with visits from them—bringing presents, and invited me to the consul in Los Angeles, and the consul general's become a friend. I visited their ships. And it's been amazing. 00:38:02.315 --> 00:38:12.704 What kind of friendships and comradery did you form while serving in Korea or in Vietnam, and with whom? 00:38:12.704 --> 00:38:53.014 With the personnel on the ships I was on, primarily your own squadron. You have a ready room, which is the enclosure with seats and briefing materials and whatnot, where you ready yourself for flight. And actually, otherwise, it's sort of a central for that squadron, and people spend a fair amount of time there. Sometimes in the evening you have a movie and so that's kinda' home base outside of your quarters. 00:38:53.014 --> 00:38:58.304 What did you do for recreation when you were off duty? 00:38:58.304 --> 00:39:21.605 Volleyball, running, maybe a little sunbathing—very little. Some reading, some studies, some—you have other assignments besides flying, So you have to pay attention to that as well. 00:39:21.605 --> 00:39:29.824 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while on shift? 00:39:29.824 --> 00:40:34.364 Found to be a bunch of them (laughs). Well it's—our pilots get shot down, and if they're rescued, they eventually go by way of another ship and then used breeches buoy, which is a sort of a seat that you get on and have wires connecting two ships and you spin and you can send this little trolley thing with the chair back and forth to send supplies or people. And in a big storm, while they're doing that, the ships come together. Sometimes that close without engaging one another (Williams extends arms in front of himself). But that makes that line instead of taught go down like this (lowers arms). The people often get dipped in the ocean and then come snap it back out of it (raises arms). It's kind of an interesting drill. 00:40:34.364 --> 00:40:38.085 Was there something that you did for good luck? 00:40:38.085 --> 00:40:58.085 No, pray! I am religious and I give credit—I should not have survived that incident, but I did—and I did it with other outside help. God was with me. 00:40:58.085 --> 00:41:06.925 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:41:06.925 --> 00:43:59.045 In San Diego, I had had a plane crash where I broke 11 vertebrae. I continued to serve and fly, but the medical department made exceptions in my case to where I was authorized certain medications that I should not have been taking and flying. And as time went on and I would indicate need for more help, they would increase it. And I got to a point of a ridiculous amount. And then the flight surgeon, when I came back from our first tour in Vietnam, talked to his friend who was the leader of the medical department at Pensacola, Florida. And they were so surprised they ordered me to go back to Pensacola for an evaluation. Well, during that they said everything is doable. For instance, thyroid normalcy is around two grains. They had me on five and a half grains a day. And they said, no, it's normal. Just stop taking it. Well, there were results. My hair's falling out, I'm just weary. I'm flying day and night off the carrier. And the results of that study was studied in Washington at the Bureau of Navy Medicine and Surgery. They said, this can't be. So, they got the Bureau of Personnel to give me new orders that you authorize for flight in combat, at sea, down at the actual command—at the actual controls. Why is the wing commander, for heaven's sake? I said, How do I run a wing in combat not flying? So I sent myself to the school for the rear seat—the naval flight officer, we call 'em now—now we have their old set of wings and so forth. At that time, it was so early in the game that we were using the wings that were also used for enlisted flight crew. But as time went on, I was a primary player in getting that law changed that didn't allow NFOs (Naval Flight Officers) to have command. So for officers, NFOs, they'd probably quit at lieutenant commander. There's just no further promotion for 'em. Well, we got that law changed and now we have four-star admirals as NFOs. 00:43:59.045 --> 00:44:02.965 Did you return home when your service ended— 00:44:02.965 --> 00:44:03.000 Oh, ah! 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000 —Sorry, go ahead. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:46:14.405 So where was I? My physical problems were starting to make life tougher. I started dragging the leg and they sent me to the hospital here in San Diego and operated on me. And I came out, and they put me on temporary retirement until I got healthy. Then I got recalled in 1980. This was—I went in early, second month in '42 and then went out in the first of January in '80. So there was a little gap from when I came out of the hospital until I was cleared for active duty again. And meanwhile, I'd had a ship and a whole lot of very important jobs. I had two-star job on Admiral McCabe staff, who was the first Inspector General, CINCPAC (Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet). I was Chief of Staff COMFAIRWESTPAC (Commander, Fleet Air Western Pacific). A whole lot of pretty important stuff. But I came on back and was on COMATG PAC staff (Afloat Training Group Pacific) when I went to the hospital and they operated on me, set me aside, I came back, and I got ordered as commodore with amphibious task force for training. So I took a group of 20 some ships to Hawaii and that sort of thing. And I came back and retired in 1980, built this house, and grew 200 rose bushes. Spent an awful lot of time below the hill (laughs). 00:46:14.405 --> 00:46:22.324 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work, or did you go back to school, or— 00:46:22.324 --> 00:46:52.505 I got a master's degree in college. And I worked for a company as vice president of a startup group. And I saw that they had problems, and I excused myself, and said if they straightened out their operation, I'd be pleased to come back. But in the meantime, they went to jail and I did not. 00:46:52.505 --> 00:46:56.824 Did the GI Bill affect you after you completed your service? 00:46:56.824 --> 00:46:57.293 The what? 00:46:57.293 --> 00:47:02.445 The Montgomery GI Bill or the GI Bill for education? 00:47:02.445 --> 00:47:02.652 —Yes— 00:47:02.652 --> 00:47:03.474 Did you use that? 00:47:03.474 --> 00:47:04.755 —Yes, I used that. 00:47:04.755 --> 00:47:06.000 What are your thoughts on it? 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:57.065 Excellent. Yeah, it helped me feel fulfilled. I didn't actually use the ability—I also, once I completed the business part of it, I went into law and I was working down near San Ysidro and leaving here at about five-thirty in the morning and getting back at ten and spending all day Saturday in my office reading and my wife bringing me coffee. And just—I said, Why am I doing this? And I had no good reason. So I didn't continue in the law business. 00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:01.954 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:48:01.954 --> 00:48:03.025 What type? 00:48:03.025 --> 00:48:05.164 Veterans. Military veterans— 00:48:05.164 --> 00:48:20.224 Oh, yes. Oh goodness, yes. All of them. Yeah. Legion (The American Legion), VFW (The Veterans of Foreign Wars of the U.S), the DAV (Disabled American Veterans), and a lot of local groups. Mostly aviation oriented. But I have something almost every day. 00:48:20.224 --> 00:48:27.394 Did you continue any friendships after the service and for how long? 00:48:27.394 --> 00:49:09.545 Well, I was taken out of the circle of friends. When I moved out here, I formed a lot of friendships, became engrossed in the Homeowner's Association. Golfing. But as far as contact, when I learned to play the email bit, I stayed in contact with some of my military friends. But most have died, and I just now get spam (smiles). 00:49:09.545 --> 00:49:20.864 These are reflections. So, how has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:49:20.864 --> 00:50:56.394 Wow, you covered it all (laughs). Immensely! Especially since an admiral that I had served with the four different times, at a reunion came to me and said, "Hey, Royce, there's more to your story than you've told, isn't there?" I said, Yes, sir. And he says, "Well, do you know that it's no longer classified and you could talk about it?" Well, new world. What am I gonna do with this? Nobody knows enough to even ask me to say anything. So I told my wife and she said, "Oh, Royce!" (laughs). But eventually the word got out, and I'm nominated for the Medal of Honor. And that has spread the word. I'm busy with speaking, visiting engagements. You know, it's impacted it very heavily. As far as the church goes, I've been president of the congregation—active in there until I got so old that I don't do that anymore. I've been busy, yeah. I've been involved—when I engage in something, I pretty well go in wholeheartedly and try to find a slot where they can use me. 00:50:56.394 --> 00:51:06.114 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:51:06.114 --> 00:51:27.954 Outlook. Keep positive. Try to be happy. Don't get mad—you don't have any enemies. Never did. People wanted to kill me, but that was the government's business. Same here in my part. 00:51:27.954 --> 00:51:36.585 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:51:36.585 --> 00:52:06.934 To take their responsibilities in citizenship seriously. And if you can find a way to contribute—and there are lots of ways you can—do something for your country. When you do that, you're doing something for everybody and especially yourself. 00:52:06.934 --> 00:52:17.514 How did you become associated with the city of Escondido in this north San Diego County community? 00:52:17.514 --> 00:54:31.735 1965, I was a waiting commander. My headquarters at Miramar Naval Air Station. And I lived in south Escondido and had church membership in the community. I had three sons that were all at home at that time before they went in the Navy and whatnot. And a lovely wife who was involved in Ikebana Japanese floral arranging. And was very good at it, as you can see her hand right here at home. And a good cook. And I had some guns and enjoyed shooting. So if I wasn't required on the job on a Saturday, we would often—she'd make a picnic lunch and we'd take some of our guns and look for a place to shoot. And I found hidden metals before there were any homes out here. Just a dirt road coming up. And I loved it so much. It's just—it's beauty. So, later on in 1972, I was on Admiral McCabe's staff in Hawaii, and I already had far more than the 30 years of service, and I knew I would be required to leave any day soon and had no place to retire. So wife and I came back—space available—and borrowed my dad's car and came up to Escondido—he lived in San Diego at that time. And headed straight up here once I got my instructions right. And there were only two houses but underground facilities, roads, and beautiful place. And so I bought some property here, which I built on later. And, so from the very beginning, they've had my fingerprint up here. 00:54:31.735 --> 00:54:45.355 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:54:45.355 --> 00:55:00.445 No, I've had plenty of opportunity to talk to groups, and I don't withhold anything that I think is of value, so it's pretty well out there. 00:55:00.445 --> 00:55:07.045 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:55:07.045 --> 00:55:37.474 That the very highest percentage of them are genuine, loving Americans that felt they wanted to do something for the sake of everybody in the nation. And that once they get committed there, it's the lifetime and they're an important productive part of community. 00:55:37.474 --> 00:55:52.155 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:55:52.155 --> 00:56:23.144 Try and be somewhat organized but realize that there isn't much you're going to accomplish on your own. It's a team sport. Get to know other people. Some you'll find have a lot of guidance, maybe some provide opportunity. You're not gonna' do it by yourself. Have a family if you're so oriented. That's an important part of my life. 00:56:23.144 --> 00:56:24.635 Thank you, Captain Williams. 00:56:24.635 --> 00:56:25.635 You're welcome. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also &#13 ; understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security &#13 ; numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-074 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States -- Armed Forces -- Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D.) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Taitingfong OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. SC027-083 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Guam ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Chamorro language ; Decolonization ; Colonization ; Language revival David Taitingfong Robert Sheehan audio file TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7dcf86c4fe6bc8b429316d83d49b9a41.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Dabit (David) Taitingfong sits down to discuss Chamorro, indigenous Guamanian, culture, heritage, and language. Chamorro ; language ; culture Guam ; Chamorro 0 23 Early Childhood and Growing up in San Diego David talks about where he was born and his early connection to the Chamorro community and culture. 0 183 Visiting Guam for the First Time David discusses how his first visit to Guam and his ancestral village, Yona, impacted his cultural and language learning process. 0 592 Colonial Occupation of Guam David talks about the history of colonialism on Guam and how that has affected the culture and the Chamorro language. 0 1481 Fluency vs. Literacy in Chamorro David talks about the two orthographies in the Chamorro language and how some Chamorro elders are only fluent in Chamorro and lack any education in Chamorro literacy. 0 2007 Chamorro Social Media David discusses how he created his Instagram page which is dedicated to teaching Chamorro language and culture. 0 2515 How the Chamorro Language Creates Connections within the Chamorro Community David talks about how his language learning process has reignited his family's and friend's interest in speaking Chamorro and learning more. 0 Oral history David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.000 So today is Friday, August 30th, 2024. My name is Robert Sheehan and I'm here with David Taitingfong for an oral history interview with Cal State San Marcos. How are you doing today, David? 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.999 I'm good. How are you? 00:00:11.999 --> 00:00:23.000 I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for being here with me today and dealing with our technical difficulties. Um, if it's all right, I'd like to start with your childhood, um, and your family. Could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and how you grew up? 00:00:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 Yeah, so I was born and raised in Southern San Diego. Um, my parents, we lived in Otay Mesa, which is real close to the border, about two or three exits away from the border. But because my parents had to work, we actually used my dad's mom's address as like, this is where we'll go to school. That way after school, I can go to my grandma's house. And so my childhood mostly was waking up, getting up, getting dropped off in a completely different neighborhood, like 30 minutes away. But that meant I got to be with my cousins because we all kind of went to the same, we all went to the same elementary school then like one or two middle schools, and then we branched out from high school. But, um, me and my brother, we did that growing up. Um, so that was more in Southeast San Diego. The, it was in the, the Jamacha neighborhood, which is near Skyline, which is, I mean, overall just, yeah, Southeast San Diego. And so that's where, that's where like most of my childhood was, honestly. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:32.000 Okay. And other than your nuclear family, did you have any sort of connection with the Chamorro community, uh, outside of your family? 00:01:32.000 --> 00:02:24.000 Yes, very much so. So my grandma, my dad's mom, um, in the neighborhood she lived in right next door was her cousin, and across the street was her cousin. And then down the street was my mom's sister. And then around the corner was like my mom's aunt. And so it was just, it felt like I grew up around the community a lot. And then also the thing I remember a lot is in Southeast San Diego, in the Lincoln area, there's a club, The Sons and Daughters of Guam's Club. I think it used to be, I don't know if it used to be called the San Diego Guam Club, but either way, the initials work out the SD Guam Club. And every year they host like little fiestas for the patron saint of each village on Guam. And the saint where my mom's mom was from. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:03:01.000 That fiesta always happened around my birthday. And so that's where I, I would say I got most of the interaction with the Chamorro community at large was going to the fiesta, going to the fiesta, which was for the village of Yona, the village of Yona and Guam's. They call it the south. It's like the middle south, but it's where I would say I feel most mostly attached to. 'Cause it's the fiesta we always went to, and it's my mom's side. And like traditionally culturally, Chamorros' are matrilineal. And so for me it's like, I feel like I've always gravitated towards my mom's side at least later on. For sure. 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.000 And have you ever visited, is it Zonia? Yona? 00:03:04.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Yeah. Um, yeah, so I , I went to Guam two years ago, maybe for the first time in my life. I was supposed to go there for a language immersion program. I wasn't able to make it in time. I got there the day it ended and then I was like, you know what? My cousin was in it, let me just spend time with her. And then I got COVID and we all did actually. So I spent my entire trip with like five people, the same five people. But I was able to go to the village of Yona. I have a cousin who still lives there. I was like, I don't know if I should visit you because I got COVID. She's like, oh, I had it two weeks ago. You're fine. Like, come here. I have gifts for you . So I was able to visit, uh, I don't know exactly which parts within the village, my mom's side is from, but my cousin from my mom's side, she was there. So she showed me a little bit of her land and I was like, okay, this is cool. I, I'm, I actually going back next year. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:10.000 Oh, very nice! It seems like a good way to connect back with family and cultural roots and stuff like that. Can you describe the village? 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Uh, you know, not entirely, because again, like when I had went, it was kind of like, I don't know if I should, my cousin was like, just come on through. But where she lived most of the houses, it was like a house, and then I would say a good chunk of land around each house. Because even when she invited me, she's like, you come over and see the ranch. And I was like, what does that mean? You know? And sure enough, we go there. It's like she has a house and I mean, I'm not even good with geography, but she definitely had enough land that I could probably do like, maybe it was like two basketball courts side by side. And she's like, yeah, this is like, we grow stuff and catch pigs here sometimes 'cause they try and eat all her stuff. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:34.000 But it's, yeah. And I want to say actually where she lives too used to be a lot of military housing. So it kind of has a feel like that where it looks modern American, but the military have since moved out of that specific area. I don't know if that's how it was, but that's how it felt like to me. Like I pulled up and I was like, okay, like a lot of these houses look like they were like, what's the -- cookie cutter? You know? Um, 'cause you go to other parts of Guam and it's not like that, like houses kind of tend to look different. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.000 And there's a big military presence on, on Guam, correct? 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Yeah. Yeah. Biggest I think would be [US] Air Force and Navy and I know they're building, or no, they've already built a Marine Corps base there, which I mean a department of the Navy. 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:58.000 How do local Guamanians and Chamorros feel about the United States military on Guam? 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:48.000 It's a, it's a mixed bag, I would say. Because after World War II, everyone was split. I know on my dad's side, they were more grateful. So there was, there's a story of a man, I believe his name was, Robert? Robert Tweed? Well, I just know his last name's Tweed. And he was one of, he was an American, service member who was hiding from the Japanese. And a lot of families helped him. My dad's mom, her family was one of the people who had helped him, like, helped him hide until more reinforcements came and stuff. And so I know on my dad's side of the family, they're very much grateful for that. I never really got much war stories from my mom's side. I don't know how they feel about that. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:07:26.000 But I would say where I'm at in my life now, most of my peers, most of the people I associate with are against it for sure. In the sense of like, at least against it in the sense of if you want to use our stuff, at least ask. 'cause that's currently not the relationship, right? It's pretty much anything at the federal level kind of just kind of just goes, GovGuam [Government of Guam] does a lot of stuff, but if the military's like, Hey, we want to do this. I think one of the requirements that they have to do is just like, conduct studies, but they conduct the study. So it's like, it's kind of kinda weird. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.000 Who's watching the watchers kinda thing? 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.000 Yeah. . 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:35.000 Okay. Can I rewind a little bit back to high school? What high school did you go to? 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:41.491 I went to Morris High School, also in Southeast, skyline area. 00:07:41.491 --> 00:07:45.000 Okay. And was there a large contingent of Chamorro kids who went to your high school? 00:07:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Uh, I wouldn't say it was large. There's definitely, we all knew each other. I would say that for sure. And there was enough of us, because again, the Guam Club is literally down the street from Lincoln. Lincoln, while I was in high school, had closed for renovations. And so all the kids who could have went there had to go to other schools. A lot of 'em went to Morris. And I did meet a lot of Chamorros that way. And then because again, of the big military presence on Guam and the other island, on the other northern islands, kids tend to find their way, either through their -- mostly, I mean, if I was in high school -- through their parents. Right. And so most of the people I met, they're like, oh yeah, like my parent, my family just moved out here 'cause they're stationed here, you know? And so not a lot. Well enough for sure. It was nice. Like, you see somebody, you see, in their papers or in class, they're doing roll call. You hear the last name. You're like, that's, that's a chamorro last name. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000 Okay. Can you gimme some examples of what a Chamorro last name would be or how you can tell? 00:08:51.000 --> 00:09:50.000 Yeah. So like, my last name is, um, we would pronounce it Taitingfong. And so we have a lot of last names with T-A-I, it's a prefix that means like, without, and there's like a lot of history there, but if you heard someone Taitingfong, Taitano, Taimagung, Taisagui and then like on my mom's side, there's Acadino, and then there's some Spanish ones that are mixed in. But there's like, you, you could, if, so like my mom, her middle, um, her name was Mediola Acadino, and a Mendiola is not technically Chamorro, but if, if you say your name's Mendiola, and I look at you and I'm like you look Chamorro. Um, so there's some Spanish ones, but then yeah, like the Chamorro ones, [Chamorro surnames] there's like Q-U-I was another popular one, like a prefix where I was like, oh, that might be Chamorro. Because that's how the Spanish wrote it. But in our language, it would be like a K-E. 00:09:50.000 --> 00:10:09.000 And just like the US military, Spain has a long history in that area as well. And with language it seems to have bled through a little bit. Yeah. Uh, can you talk a little bit about how that heritage or history happened and how it affected language? 00:10:09.000 --> 00:11:08.000 Yeah. I want to say, I mean, 'cause Spain has, Spain had a presence in the Marianas for a long time, since like the 1500s. But from what I've read, it was primarily through commerce. They didn't have intentions of colonizing the islands. They were just like, we want a port here. We want to stop. 'Cause they were going from Mexico to the Philippines straight. But if they needed to stop, eventually at some point they're like, oh, here's Guam and here's the other islands, the Northerner Islands and stuff. But I wanna say Guam was the main port. It was the biggest island. And in terms of how that language spread, I mean, again, through commerce and stuff, and then through eventual colonization, primarily through a religious means, the language bled through. And one thing that I think is interesting though is that the Chamorros kind of took their words that they liked and they don't, sometimes they don't mean the same thing. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:51.000 And then we also treat them as if they are Chamorro words, if that makes sense. Like, we affix them as if they're our own words. And one, one of my friends told me, he's like, the true tale of if we have fully adopted a word is if we afix it however we want, there's some words where we don't, we still -- there's certain phrases I think that stay through. Like, um, if someone says sabe dios, like, we took the word dios for God and say Yu'os, but we also don't say sabe. So like in that context of the phrase sabe dios, it's like, well, we kept that otherwise though. Yeah. We just took words and we're like, we're gonna say it how we say it. Hey, fix it how we affix it. 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:56.000 Very interesting! I like you kind of flip it around and say, no, this is our word now. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.000 Are you said that happens quite a bit in the Chamorro language. 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000 Yeah. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:06.000 And did you start speaking Chamorro at home when you were little or later on? 00:12:06.000 --> 00:13:35.000 Later on. Much later. When the pandemic started, my teacher at the time, Dr. Michael Lujan Bevacqua, he was doing a weekend class on Guam at a coffee shop, maybe like at max 10 people. When the Pandemic started, coffee shops closed, he was like, oh, I should just do it online. And a few months before he had actually like, kind of trial ran it with another group, a group that was based outta the east coast of the United States. And he did like a, I forgot how long it was, but he did a few classes online and was like, oh, this is a feasible way to instruct and so -- excuse me --. And so he was like, okay, I'll open it up to the public at large, you know, Saturday Guam time, Friday in the States. And that's when I, that's when I like really found a good schedule because the first time, technically when I learned online with him was when he did that trial run. And it, quite interestingly, I was on my honeymoon and I was like, Hey, can I do this? And she's like, if you're okay with the time difference, like, sure. You know, and so I was up at like 2:00 AM in Barcelona, in a class for an hour, you know? Um, but that's when it started for me. So I really only started 2020. At the beginning of 2020 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:37.998 Okay. Do you consider yourself fluent? 00:13:37.998 --> 00:14:05.000 I would say pretty, I would say, I could definitely hold a conversation with most speakers. Um, like the real, real fluent elders. Sometimes they speak really fast or if they're, if they're chewing pugua, which is a bit, um, beetle net, which is just something like we, we chew out on the islands sometimes, like the words can get jumbled. I can't catch it. Um, but I would say I'm pretty fluent now. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:12.486 How popular is Chamorro on Guam? Do people still speak it as a primary language? 00:14:12.486 --> 00:15:02.000 Not right now. There's definitely a cultural shift to get there, especially recently, just within the past, I think month, there is a school that's been running for I think 17 ish years. The Chief Hurao Academy, they do [an] immersion program for children. And I know sometimes they try and do it for adults as well. They just got charter status. And so I want to say it's gonna grow to become even more. But definitely on Guam, it's been in a decline. It's been in decline since World War II. And then I can't speak much for the northern islands for Rota or Saipan. I know folks still speak it. Um, and I want to say though, it is still mostly a at home thing. 'cause even when I went there, I was like really excited to flex my tongue. And I was like, okay. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:39.000 And then I'd go into a coffee shop, you know, I'm just like, hafa adai and they're like, hafa adai. And then like, that's it, you know? Or the first, actually the first time I was, I had a full conversation was I went to a cemetery to look for family, like family graves and stuff. And I saw this lady and I heard her speaking Chamorro to another coworker. So I walk up and I, I talk, I'm talking to her in Chamorro. And it's funny 'cause she's like snacking on something and she's like, oh, nen, how are you? And nen is short for neni, which is just like, it means baby, but, you know, and a term of endearment, oh nen, how can I help you? And I was just like, oh. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:16:28.000 [Speaking Chamorro] Which is like, oh, I'm sorry, like, if you don't mind, can you help me? And she like wiped her mouth and put her food away. And she was like, whoa. You know? She was kind of like -- and I think it's because I looked younger than somebody who she would assume can speak Chamorro. And I also, I think she could tell I wasn't from the island, you know, the way I was dressed and my accent wasn't good, or like, as typical sounding. And so she started talking back to me and she gave me instructions. And I was just like, okay [speaking Chamorro]. And then, yeah. But I could tell she was like, what is going on? Which was when I realized like, okay, out here, it's still, it's still blossoming, it's still, seeds are still being planted and it's definitely not as much. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Why do you think that the Chamorro language was in a decline and it's needed this revitalization? 00:16:38.000 --> 00:17:26.000 So post World War II, effectively it was made -- I don't know the correct, like legal terms -- I wanna say it was made law made mandate. I don't know what legal term they used, but effectively they were saying, you can't speak Chamorro in public. You can't speak Chamorro at schools. And then at schools, if you were speaking Chamorro, you were like fined financially or physically punished. And because of that, when, you know, you go home and that word gets to your family, they're like, okay, well learn English then. Like, well, maybe we'll speak Chamorro more to you at home. Like, I know my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, and I know my parents grew up hearing the language, but because of that, it, it just bled out into all of the villages. 00:17:26.000 --> 00:18:22.000 They're like, don't speak this language, it's your language, but don't speak it. And in public, in schools, you know, save it for the home. And because of that, the language -- maybe if it's only being spoken at home, you go out in public -- it's you, you go out in public and now post World War II, life is different, right? There's so many other things happening now. There's industries that are coming to fruition because of post-war. And, now it's like, well, if I can't speak Chamorro, I can't even create new terms for this. So it's like, I can't communicate, oh, we all speak English though, so, or we're all trying to learn English. So it was, I think it was definitely one of those things, 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.000 And that's horrible. First off, ut that, that kind of historical trauma, does it still have its kind of finger around moral culture? 00:18:26.000 --> 00:19:15.000 I would say yes. Um, and I actually didn't feel that way until recently. I tend to be on the optimistic side, I tend to feel very optimistic about the future of the language and the future of many things. Because, on my mom's side, I have one native speaker left. I might have -- my mom understands, I know her, one of her other sisters understands. I actually haven't talked with my uncles in a while. Should probably do that -- I don't know if they understand, but I know a lot of, like my mom's generation, they understand but they don't speak it. And so my mom's eldest sister, um, when I started learning, my mom was like, Hey, by the way, Dabit is learning the language, Dabit is what, like David in Chamorro, like Dabit's learning Chamorro, you should talk with them. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:50.000 And at first my aunt was like, for real, you know? And I think she even said something to me like, really fast. And I was like, Ooh, I didn't catch that. So she said, it began slower. And I was like, okay, I have someone I can at least try to talk with. And when I finally sat and had a conversation with her, she did open up to me. And we actually had a good long cry, which just like it was, we were at a party and then we just kind of sat off to the side talking about our own thing. And she told me something that like her sisters didn't even know, you know? So when I asked my mom later -- like in the moment, I was already crying 'cause it was sad -- And then later I was like, Hey mom, how come you didn't tell me this? 00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:34.000 And she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I was like, wow. Um, and then I found that to be the case with a lot of the elders, at least who I was talking to in my circles. And, you know, I would go to certain events and I would try and find someone who looks like they'll talk to me or maybe someone I already know and I'm like, oh, I can speak Chamorro now, let me try this. And some of 'em were receptive. Um, but I guess it would depend on where you're at. Because recently I had some family file from the east coast and my dad, it's on my dad's side, and he's like, Hey, your uncle speaks Chamorro, you should talk to him. And when I would try to talk Chamorro to him, he would acknowledge me, but respond in English, you know? 00:20:34.000 --> 00:21:24.000 And after a few sentences, he was like, why are you trying to learn the language? It's dead, you know? And I was like, whoa. Like, it was the first time I had an elder say that. So I was like, oh shoot. And so there's definitely, there's definitely people like that. There's definitely people out there and Chamorro's out there who were like, there's no point. Even though they have the, the knowledge and to share. It's the, I would say the trauma is still there. And then there's also the, um -- my, my mom's sister, the fluent speaker, one reason she was hesitant to converse with me -- primarily the way I asked her, I was like, can you teach me stuff? And the first thing she said was, I can't read the language. And I don't know, like the grammar, you know? And so I was like, okay, let me rephrase this. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:22:01.000 Can we just talk in Chamorro? You know, because like, I didn't care, right? Like your my [aunt], your mom, my grandma wasn't a teacher. Her mom wasn't [a teacher], her mom wasn't. Right. Like these official titles I think sometimes can prevent the elders from wanting to pass down the generation. 'cause they're like, oh, I don't know if it's right. You know? But it's like, but if this is the language you speak with all your peers, like it's technically right, right? Like we have grammar based rules, but at the same time, you know, language has changed, languages fluctuate. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:10.000 Especially with the influx of all the new technology post World War II, we were talking about. How have the Chamorro people in the Chamorro language incorporated those new terms into language? 00:22:10.000 --> 00:23:05.000 I would say there's like three routes that I can think of off the top of my head. The first route is kind of a common sense approach. Like do we just, do we try to make a word for it or do we just call it what it's, right. So like the word bus, they just say bus. For truck, they just say truck for a machete, they just say machete, right? So like there's that where it's like, just take the word and say it in our tone. There's another approach which is like to take -- oh, and actually in that regard too -- it's like, take the English word or take the Spanish word or whatever and just kind of funnel it into the language. I would say the second approach is trying to create the word or change the word using our own words. 00:23:05.000 --> 00:24:37.000 So I would say one example is, -- excuse me again -- Um, the word escuela, we use it for school, but with a lot of my peers, we also have interest in like reclaiming the language, so to speak. And so when possible it's like, can we recreate this word? And so instead of saying escuela, um, I have friends, actually, I think this is a more accepted term now is fa'na'gue yanggen. And the word [speaking Chamorro] means to learn by doing. And then one of my favorite things about the language, we have a circum-fix. Something that encompasses a word. So it's fan and an if it ends in a consonant or fan and yan if it ends in a vowel. And so [speaking Chamorro] means like a place of learning. So there's like, there's that approach. Um, and then the third approach would be, if it's just too complicated, just spell it how it's, so one example is the app WhatsApp, right? Like, Chamorro's love WhatsApp. And if you have to literally write it, if there's like legal text or something, again, you might see escuela, [speaking Chamorro] and blah blah blah. But they'll put a single quote and just write WhatsApp single quote. And that's kind of how they take, that's kind of how we take the approach to the language. It's like what's actually being said? What can we create so that it's said? And then if not -- like no one's gonna translate X-ray. We're just gonna write X-ray. Just leave it alone. 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:55.000 That's really interesting. I like that. You'd mentioned, um, kind of the grammatical structure of the language and also writing. You said your aunt was not fluent in a written way, but she was in an oral way. Are you fluent in Chamorro writing? 00:24:55.000 --> 00:26:05.000 Yes. And I would actually say maybe more so than some of my peers because in the current moment there are two official orthographies, orthography being the, like the written rules about how we portray the language. And so there's the Guam orthography and the NMI orthography, the Northern Marianas Island orthography. Um, the Guam orthography is a one word, one spelling approach. And the NMI orthography is a one sound, one symbol. And this comes in, I think they both have strengths, they both have weaknesses. Um, but I know both and right now, because, I mean Guam's the bigger island and, I would say they have more resources. I think more people know the Guam orthography than they do the NMI orthography. And so for me, I started with the Guam orthography and I was getting confused at some points. But once I started teaching I realized I liked the NMI orthography more for helping people pronunciate things. 00:26:05.000 --> 00:27:00.000 Because when you read something written in the NMI, it's written how it sounds, which is useful for reading. Um, I would say for new people it's confusing. Because like the word tiningo', which means like knowledge tiningo' that last syllable was like, ooh. Um, but when you start to afix it and change it, like if I wanted to say my knowledge, I would say tiningo'-hu right? And so that difference in sound when you read it, it's like, okay, yeah. But now if you're trying to learn the word, you don't know which one to look up really. Guam doesn't have that problem one word, one spelling, no matter how you say it. Which I think has created interesting variations in speakers already. Like I have friends who only know the Guam orthography and they pronounce words the way they see 'em. And I would say that's due to a lack of speakers around them. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:33.000 But again, like that's probably just what's gonna happen. There's gonna be like a dialect of folks who learned by reading. Not a problem. But it's just like, it's something I've started to pick up on through my, through listening. Whereas like with the NMI orthography too. If I give somebody something in the NMI orthography, they think they're looking up like three or four words, you know? I'm like, oh no, this is the same word. It's just they spell it based on how it sounds and so that it can get confusing there. Uh, but yeah, to answer your question, I would say I'm pretty good with it. , 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:45.000 It sounds like it! Your pretty knowledgeable about both just sets of orthographies. Is Chamorro a gendered language? Like Spanish is where there's a masculine and a feminine 00:27:45.000 --> 00:28:15.000 For borrowed words. Yeah. So like for teacher you would say most folks would probably say maestro or maestra. Uh, but we do have like, let's say an indigenous term fafa'na'gue, which isn't gendered at all. Um, and then we have like the word saina, which means like elder. But we do also have mom and dad, Nana and Tata. But I believe even those are borrowed. So in its the truest sense, no, but when we borrow words, definitely. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:22.000 I see. Alright. Rewinding once again after high school, um, did you go to college? 00:28:22.000 --> 00:29:07.000 Yes. Yeah. So, well, I went to college and then I got DQ'ed, I got academically disqualified, went to community college and then was too proud to pull out loans or ask for money. So I was working. So I did that. School, got kicked out, work. I did that for four years. 2012, joined the military. A lot of irony there. Got out in 2016, went back to school. Well, I went back to school before I even got out. But at 2016, went back to Southwestern College in Chula Vista, got my associates, transferred to Cal State Long Beach. And then I finished up in 2019. 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.000 Okay. And what was your degree in? 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:09.999 Computer science. 00:29:09.999 --> 00:29:12.000 Computer science. And what branch of the military were you in? 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.998 Marine Corps. Yeah. 00:29:13.998 --> 00:29:26.000 Okay. And after you graduated, did you immediately go into the computer science field or was there a time where you were kind of figuring out what you wanted to do? 00:29:26.000 --> 00:30:33.000 So I went right into it because during my last semester, I had an internship when I was at Cal State Long Beach. I had an internship with Northrop Grumman in their, like, aerospace sector. They like renamed it. At the time it was called Aerospace. It might be called something different like space. Oh, it's called, I think now it's called Space Systems. And they have aeronautical systems. 'cause they wanted that elevation difference . Um, but I, so I was doing that. And yeah, it was a mix of like computer science, computer engineering, what I was doing there. When they gave me a job offer, I asked them if I can go to San Diego. They got me one, went down to San Diego, one of the offices in RB (Rancho Bernardo). And yeah, I was doing, I would say it was still like a mix of what I was doing. There was like a little computer sciencey somewhat IT, like some--they call it DevOps. Like it's kind of like the middle boat. And then now I work at Apple and I'm doing like legit software development. 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:44.000 Very cool. Congratulations! And do you meet Chamorro software engineers frequently or Pacific Islanders software engineers? 00:30:44.000 --> 00:31:55.000 Yeah. I wouldn't say frequently. 'cause that definitely whenever I meet even a Pacific Islander in, in tech, it's always like, oh wow. Um, in terms of Chamorro's though, I wanna say the first software engineer I met was through one of Dr. Michael's classes. I'm not, I'm gonna just call him Miget , um, Miget's classes. And he's a software engineer for Costco. I think he lives in the Pacific Northwest. And I was like, oh wow, that's cool. Like, I've never met another one. He's like, oh, have you met Benny? And so he introduced me to another, another guy older than me. I was like, should I call him uncle? I don't think so. But Benny, he's a, he's been a software developer for like 20 something years. Doing mostly like web development. And so I was like, oh wow, okay. There's more of us. But aside from that, I don't think, I know there is, I haven't met this person, but I know someone is running, there's like an online dictionary. They took this Chamorro dictionary and made it into a website. And I know they're running it or like they were given the grant to do it or something. And so I know, I don't know who that person is though. I, I should reach out. 00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:03.968 That's very cool. So they're like a, so it sounds like there's like a network--Or at least loosely? 00:32:03.968 --> 00:32:28.000 If there is, I'm not a part of it yet. I have always wanted to, because even though my interest started in computer science, because I got so deep in the language space, I, I have always wanted to do something in the computational linguistics field. Ever since I started learning, I'm like, man, this would be really cool. But I just haven't because I've been too busy trying to learn the language and trying to teach the language. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:48.000 Do you feel like you're close to a point now where you might be able to move towards that computational linguistics? Because from an outsider's perspective, it sounds like you're very fluent and very knowledgeable about the language and how it's structured and you could teach it. 00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:27.000 Yeah, I don't think so. I think it's, to me, it's still a dream just because I have found so much community and love and appreciation for the work I'm doing. Like, just like on social media, you know, or just by meeting with people and speaking the language to them. I think right now, that outweighs my desire to try and beat Google at creating a translate. Because if you go to translate.google.com, they have Chamorro. And in the past month we've been roasting it 'cause it's incredibly wrong. It's so wrong. It's funny. 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:42.000 Okay. Um, speaking of social media, I noticed that you have an Instagram page that's kind of devoted to the Chamorro language and Chamorro culture and experience. What caused you to want to create that? 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:53.000 There was a time, I think I started last year. So currently I'm on break because I have a four month old at home. 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000 Congratulations! 00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Thank you. But I was like, I'm gonna take a break because I'm probably not gonna have the time. And then my wife's back in school, so it was like, okay, really no time. But when I had started it, my cousin had showed me a video from TikTok and there was a guy, he's not even Chamorro, but I think his wife is Chamorro, and he was just speaking Chamorro. He was a student of the Chief Hurao Academy. He did their adult program. He's like, uh, he's like, I should learn because my kid, I want my kid to learn. And so he had a video and he made stuff he like, was just saying, I think, I don't even remember what the video was about. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:35:14.000 I think it was just phrases. But you can tell from the video that he was on island because he was making references that like, you probably only understand if you're around the culture. And specifically on the island though. And my cousin showed me this and she was like, Dabit, you should do this. You should make videos like you're a good teacher. 'cause at the time too, actually, I was doing my own Zoom class with my cousins, which reminds me, I told them I'd start back up and I haven't, but I was doing that and they're like, you should do this. You're so social, you're so out there. Like, you should just do it. And yeah, that's really it. I just, one day I was like, you know what, here's some lines. Make a video. I put it out there. And then I did it again. 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:51.000 I don't think it was until maybe the fifth video where people were like, who is this guy? Why are you, you know? And then I had people comment, I had friends who were like, do you write scripts? And I was like, not really. They're like, you should write scripts, blah, blah, blah. They're like, it looks like you're doing all your videos in one take. I'm like, I am. They're like, don't. They're like, just say what you can. Don't stop recording if you mess up. Just like kind of run it back and just stitch things together. And I was like, oh my god. Yeah. This is so much better. Um, and then it's actually funny because I haven't made a video since like four or five months ago. But recently I went to Oregon. They had the first annual, the first ever, I don't know what the correct term is. 00:35:51.000 --> 00:37:01.000 There was a Mariana's Festival in Fair, Fairview, Oregon. And I went there and there's another Chamorro social, um, like social media person who doesn't make language content necessarily. It's like, not the focus, but she's trying to incorporate it. And she was like, we should go around and ask people stuff. I'll ask in English, you ask, you want, and when I checked this morning, I think the video, the video's been up for like a week and it has like over a hundred thousand views. Wow. People are texting my mom and she's like, is this your son? Because it came up on my feed. You know, people are, people are texting my wife, they're like, is this your husband? Like, what? he popped up on my feed? You know? Or like my sister-in-law, she's like, oh my God, look what just popped up on my feed. You, you know? And I'm just like, wow. Um, and yeah, like, man, like practically every comment is like, wow, it's so cool to hear the language. Because at the festival I knew the, I knew like my friends who were there, who were speakers who were in the same classes as me, so I felt comfortable asking them, you know, I was like, yeah, like blah, blah, blah. And people were like, wow, these people, these kids, you know, they look at me and they're like, these kids know the language and Okay. 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:15.000 It, it's a very cool video. I actually watched it before our meeting today. It's really interesting. And I actually had a couple questions regarding the video. Mostly to do with kind of food and culture and how those two kind of intersect. You have mentioned that one of your favorite foods was apigigi'? 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Apigigi' 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.497 Apigigi'. And what is apigigi'? 00:37:21.497 --> 00:38:02.000 So it is a, it's a cooked dessert. So you get like coconut shreds. Well, I used coconut shreds. I don't know if some people use the shredded coconut. I'm not sure. Actually. I use coconut shreds. But you put that and then you have, um, we call it mendioka. It's, I think it's tapioca like the starch and stuff. Um, with some leche niyok , which is the coconut milk and sugar, you mix it all together, you slap it in, traditionally a banana leaf and then you wrap it up, close it, you grill it, and then you wait until it closes down and then you can eat it. 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.499 Sounds delicious! 00:38:03.499 --> 00:38:07.000 It is! Yeah. And it's not that many ingredients, you know, so it's like really easy. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.000 And the other dish that I heard mentioned was, um, Kelaguen? 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.000 Kelaguen. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.000 And it sounded like you could have kelaguen with multiple different kinds of protein? 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.000 Yes. 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:18.998 So what is kelaguen? 00:38:18.998 --> 00:39:18.000 Kelaguen is effectively, it's kind of like an escabeche. That's how we say it. I don't even know what the?...a ceviche? Okay. Um, I think technically the term comes from a Filipino word, kilawin. And their kilawin was, I wanna say more fish based. But yeah, you, you effectively take a protein and cook it in acid. Like that's really all it is. I think. I was actually taught recently that the traditional word before kelaguen was just, um, naynay. And I could see how that can fall out of use. Mm. Um, but technically that, yeah, that it's just cooking something in like acids. So the most popular one is kelaguen mannok or chicken kelaguen. You grill your meat, you chop it up, not too big, not too small. And then you get like, salt, lemon, add your decorations, like your green onions and stuff. 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:57.000 But effectively the salt also helps cook it. And it come and you serve it cold though, you know, so you, after you cook and everything, you mix everything. You don't serve it, you can eat it the same day. Growing up, my family always did it, and then we ate it the next day. Because it's a bit softer. The first and last time I made kelaguen katne, which is beef kelaguen. Um, I cut it too big. But yeah, it was just that. And then it was like lemon vinegar, soy sauce or something. So I forget all the ingredients I added. Put it in the fridge the next day we were eating it, you know, and I was like, I was like, is this really gonna cook it? And they're like, yes, chemistry, it's gonna work. I promise 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:05.000 That's great. And when you prepare food, is it a communal thing or is it a single chef preparing meals for everyone? 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:50.000 You know, growing up it was definitely a communal thing. At least when it came to, I mean, especially when it came to the Fiesta, you're doing a lot of things. You know, at the Guam Club, they have an outdoor kitchen, or they had, I haven't been there in a while, like the kitchen area, but I remember they had a table that was really just like a cutting board. The, the whole table was like a cutting board. And yeah, they would have people grilling, they'd bring the chicken over and you chop it up, you know, you're doing everything and then you pass it on to the next person. Each person kind of had a role, you know. You had people grilling, you had the people tearing the meat off the bone, then you had the people cutting, then you had the people mixing, you know, and then you had the people like, um, setting it aside, preparing it and stuff. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:41:44.000 When I, the last, the first and last time, no, no, no. It wasn't the first last time I made apigigi' I did it for the language immersion program we did here. Prugraman Sinipok. And I taught the class. And so like, that was a communal thing. We had everybody make it. I was worried at first 'cause like, oh, they're not gonna all be the same. But I think it gave it a kind of like, nice little style. It's like, oh, some people made it this way. Some people made 'em real small. Some people made 'em big , you know. And, and I remember when we brought it to the, the following day, there was a picnic for the Guam Liberation. And I brought it and people were so surprised. They were like, nobody ever does this. And in my mind I was like, what? This is the easiest thing to make . And so now it's like something I want to do, kind of a tradition. Like I almost wanna start in my family now. Maybe with just me first, like, oh, I think I can show you how to make it if you like it. Um, so traditionally I would say very communal thing. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:58.359 And you mentioned your family and bringing the Chamorro culture into your family and making it a part of your own family. Do you speak Chamorro to your children? 00:41:58.359 --> 00:42:50.000 So I try to with our 4-year-old, gonna be five in October. I try to as much as I can with him because he is more cognizant and more responsive. It can be hard, but I know he's getting it. With our baby. I only speak Chamorro to the baby. Sometimes I'll say things to my mom in Chamorro because I know she understands. Not so much with my dad though, because I know his understanding is less. And so I guess it would depend on what it is. Like, if it's like, I'm like, oh, where's mom? I'll say that, you know. But with my mom, I can say like, oh, are you gonna go outside because if you are, can you do this? You know, like longer thoughts. My wife picks up the things I say to the kids. So she knows those words, but I don't talk to her in Chamorro. 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 Okay. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.000 And my sister lives with us. She said she wants to learn. She's waiting for me to start teaching 00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.000 So you gotta get on it. . 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.994 Yeah, gotta get on it. 00:43:02.994 --> 00:43:09.000 Has your wife or your father or mother, have they shown more interest now that you are so into the language? 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:23.000 Yes. My mom, especially now that I only speak Chamorro to this baby. And so within the last four months I've heard more Chamorro come out of my mom's mouth than the last two or three years we've lived together. Which is something, you know. 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000 That's wonderful. 00:43:24.000 --> 00:44:01.843 Yeah. Even if it's funny little things like, did you poop? Or why are you stinky? Let's change your diaper. But because it's the only way I communicate with this baby, I think it makes my mom want to. And my dad will say words like, you're stinky, you know, or you pooped, you threw up. You know, very short things. But definitely again, like the most Chamorro I've ever heard, leave his mouth, you know? Um, yeah. 00:44:01.843 --> 00:44:09.000 That's great! And, you mentioned the Prugraman Sinipok and that's a cultural immersion program. For two weeks or so outta the year, they take students from all over and immerse them in the Chamorro cultural and language. 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:09.500 Yes. 00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:11.995 And how did that start? 00:44:11.995 --> 00:45:35.000 So this was the third year. This was the first year I helped though. It started through someone else. Uh, her name is June Pangelinan. She lives in like the Bay Area (near San Francisco, CA). Or near there, I would say. But she, it, it was like her thing. She was also a student of Miget's and was like, I think we should, I think we should do a language immersion program. You know, and Miget was just like, if you plan it, I'll do it. You know, 'cause Miget is always down, but in, in the same way. For me, it's like, I'm always down, but I don't want to plan. Like, if you tell me what I can do or give me a spot, I will fulfill that role for however long. I'm just not good at planning though. But yeah. So it was, it was June's like, whole vision. You know, she linked up with Miget and the first two years they actually did it on Guam. And like, so yeah, like that first year I tried to go. It, it didn't work out for me 'cause I was actually in the middle of switching jobs. So when the program was happening, that's when I was going to join Apple. And so it didn't line up. I tried to, I tried to make it line up. I was like, no, okay, I'll leave work, go to Guam, come back, start working. 00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.495 Just didn't quite line up. 00:45:37.495 --> 00:45:38.495 Yeah, exactly. 00:45:38.495 --> 00:45:45.000 And how many students in general have you seen the program grow over the last three years? Or has it stayed kind of the same core group of students? 00:45:45.000 --> 00:46:29.000 It's stayed the same number of students. I would say. Like no more than 20, maybe especially the first two years. Because they had to fly to Guam and then pay for the program and then probably get housing if they didn't have family or know anybody out there. Out here, it was less of a, I would say a burden, but maybe less of a interest for some people. Because from my understanding, from what I was told the first two years, I would say we're definitely more culturally focused. Not as much language. This year, there was a lot of language, but we didn't have as much culture. We definitely had culture and they definitely had language, but the offset was there for sure. 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:34.000 Because it was harder to do here in San Diego. Couldn't go to the same Island towns? 00:46:34.000 --> 00:47:04.000 Yeah. I, we had a Liberation picnic at Balboa Park. They have a house of Chamorros, which is like amazing within itself because usually it's relegated for countries. Right. and then the Guam Club. And then we have local folks whose parents are still alive. And so like, there was a day where we went out, we went down to Chula Vista and, you know, tried to get with them and hear the language come from them. 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:12.000 Very cool. Is it, is it common that elders will want to participate in the program? 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:54.000 I would say not common. Definitely not common. We have some elders. We have some elders in the classes that Miget teaches because for them they're like, oh, I know the language, but I don't know how to read it. You know, or I don't know how to write it. So that's what they join for, but they speak the language mm-hmm. So it's like a big benefit to the other students who join. 'cause they could hear it come fluently. But then, and it's always funny too. Yeah. 'cause when I started communicating with, with these folks and when they would write stuff, I'm like, they're literally writing it the way they say it. And to me, that was amazing. You know, it's like, oh, I wasn't sick. 00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:15.000 But yeah,it was really hard. This wasn't my job and I'm thankful it wasn't my job. It was my friend, Clarissa Mangiola, I call her mames, which just means sweet. Reese, it was, it was, it was her job to find folks who would want to participate. And from what she told me, it was really hard. Yeah. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Why do you think that is? 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:49.000 There's, I think this goes back to maybe the trauma part where some folks might not see use in the language. A lot of times they don't feel qualified to teach us. And I, I think it's part of the approach of the way we approach them, where it's like, can you teach these kids what you know? Or can, you know, impress upon them your knowledge or whatever. And they feel like, well, oh, they don't want to hear me speak because I don't speak like academically or I don't speak professionally. 00:48:49.000 --> 00:49:45.000 I don't speak eloquently. You know, which is to me always been funny because that's not the Chamorro I've ever wanted to learn. Like, I didn't want to learn like a city academic, Chamorro, you know, I wanted to hear the way my grandparents spoke, specifically my mom's mom. When I think back, my dad's mom did kind of feel, she definitely had an accent and stuff, but it definitely felt more proper. And where, and the village she's from is like the capital of Guam, you know? So it's like, very much surrounded by the like American culture, but where my mom's mom is from, considered the south and very much different. You know, more rural, you know, country living, so to speak. And so that, that's when I actually started learning the language. She, my mom's mom is who I picked to model my speak chapter. 00:49:45.000 --> 00:50:04.000 And my aunties are like, that's not how mom sounded, you know. But it's gotten me a lot of compliments from elders. They're like, wow, you're good. Like, where did you learn to speak? You know? I'm like, memory really? Because I don't have any audio recordings or anything of my grandmother. Just kind of what's embedded in me. 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.000 Were you able to speak more with your grandmother while she was here? 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:36.000 No. So I didn't start learning until 2020. My dad's mom passed in, 2009, 2010. And then my mom's mom passed in 2012. And so yeah, I did not. The closest I would say is my mom's sister. She's still around, thankfully. And every time I get the chance I talk to her in Chamorro. 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:44.397 If you could have a conversation with your mom's mom, what would you like to talk about? 00:50:44.397 --> 00:51:30.000 Wow. That's a good question. I would probably, I would ask her about her childhood and just start from there. Because there's, when we started learning the language, when Miget started teaching the language, he told everyone, if you have speakers in your family, talk to them. He's like, don't ask them about the war. Do not ask them about the war. You know, he was always very, you know, because it's definitely not something they like to talk about, you know? Um, but I would definitely just be like, where did you actually grow up? 'cause I don't know if she grew up in Yona, it's the village. She repped and claimed, but I don't know if she like spent her childhood there. I would ask her what she remembers about her grandparents or her parents. What her favorite foods were, what her most annoying chores were. 00:51:30.000 --> 00:52:16.000 Things like, what did you do for fun? You know? 'cause that's like another thing that I came to realize was, something that kind of skipped--it would come into this language barrier where the things, as I've talked to other elders, I asked them what they used to do for fun. It's like stuff I wouldn't consider fun. It's like, not stuff I thought they would say. You know, like I had an elder tell me, oh, when we were cleaning, we would race to see who could clean certain-- a board of the house faster. You know, they would like, okay, these are my two boards. These are your two boards and we'll race. And the reason it was fun though, is because for scrubbers, they would literally use coconut shells, you know, the really husky ones and they would just like scrub it. 00:52:16.000 --> 00:53:03.000 They're like, whoever can do it first, you know, wins. And he told me that and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I could see how that could be fun if you're doing it with your siblings. You know, your friends. And so I definitely would like to know what my grandmas liked doing for fun, what her favorite foods were. 'cause they're definitely, I would assume different, you know? 'cause even something like kelaguen mannok, I wouldn't even consider that like an everyday meal because it takes so much labor. It's not, it's definitely not something you're doing all the time. You know, we have like soups for that, you know. If she remembers what kind of music. As I've learned, as I've delve deeper into the language, I've become more aware of cultural things. I'd probably ask her that. I'd ask her if there were any talageros who's in her family, which are like the fisher people who go out and throw the nets. 00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:39.000 If any of her family sang. Kantan Chamorrita, which is like a, it's like a free verse style singing, which I've come to been told is some folks used to communicate like that. Like just through singing they would say the language, they'd be singing what they're doing. And then if the other person knows the tune, they do it back. You know, some kantan chamorritas are meant for competition. Some of 'em are meant to be endearing. Some of 'em are meant to be wooing someone, you know. So I definitely would ask her like very specific her things, maybe village things. But then definitely would like, I'd be interested about the culture, 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:45.000 That would be a very cool way to communicate with somebody in kind of a song. Call and repeat kind of thing. 00:53:45.000 --> 00:54:33.000 Yeah. When I went to Oregon, actually, when I was hanging out, I went there with two of my-- I went there to visit two of my friends, they live there. They're speakers. They're like, I would consider them my teachers now, you know? And we were out in the city, we were like walking back from dinner or something, and my friend just starts going with a tune, like, you know. And he was like and then he looked at me and I was like, oh, shoot, okay. I was like, you're not done with your verse, but I'll go, you know . And we just, we did that for a good couple of blocks and I was actually surprised. I was like, wow. Like I was able to do that, you know? 00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.000 I was like, sometimes they didn't make sense, but-- 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:48.000 You just stuck with it and you were right there in the, the melody and verse.--and I know we're running out of time here, but did you have anything that you wanted to talk about or anything that you wanted to say? 00:54:48.000 --> 00:55:51.000 I don't know if I have anything specific. Just that I'm very grateful that I'm able to learn the language because I've had tremendous support from my family, from my friends, from my wife, my kids, you know. I know people who struggle to find the time, you know, struggle to fit it within the typical schedules, right? Like Miget's class used to be Fridays at 4:00 PM until-- 4:00 PM or 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM all the way up until 7:00 PM. And then, once November rolls around. We do daylight saving times. Guam doesn't. And so it's like 3:00 PM--, you know, now though, it's Saturday in the States 'cause he does 'em on Sunday, so it'll probably be a little bit easier. But, I just know so many people. There's people who we started in the same classes 2020 January. Right. And I'm so far ahead of them. 00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:53.000 It's, and I don't know if that's a testament to just how deep I went or also how much time I've been able to give because, yeah, like, at the festival I ran into someone and I was, we've been in classes for years and I was, I didn't have a good grasp of how fluent they were, but when I saw 'em, I was so excited. I hugged them really tight and I was like, oh my God. And then I just started going, you know, and she was just like, you're so fluent now. What happened? You know? And so, yeah, like honestly, I'm just incredibly grateful that I've been able to learn as much as I can. And actually recently, well not even recently, it's been since December, I have another teacher who's teaching me stuff too. I would say like deeper context of things because as much as I love Miget's class, there was a point where he has to start over. 00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:25.000 You know, it's like college for him. Gotta start over, gotta start over. And so there came to a certain point where I was like, shoot, I need more. You know? 'cause I definitely don't think staying in his classes forever will benefit you as much as getting the taste. It's like college, getting the taste and then going on. And so I'm just happy that I was able to find other people who also want to go deeper into the language, learn as much as we can. We found a teacher and so, I mean, that's really it. I'm just incredibly grateful. 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:31.000 That's awesome. We're very grateful for you coming out here and spending the time and giving this interview. So I just wanna say thank you very much. 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.545 Yeah, of course. Thank you. 00:57:33.545 --> 00:57:38.545 Alright., take this. We were an hour on the dot. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials&#13 ; from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. Description An account of the resource David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-083 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Folk music;songwriter;counterculture;Woody Guthrie OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. SC027-086 02:06:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Folk music ; songwriter ; counterculture ; Woody Guthrie Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1f874004b7ad7b916e612b2588ed3fb1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 56 Early childhood and musical beginnings Rafael talks about how he become involved with playing music through public school music programs. He started as a drummer and began playing in a cover band at an early age. music education ; drummer ; Everly Brothers ; The Beatles 0 397 Adolescence and folk music influence Rafael discusses how folk music began to become popular in 1960 and how it began to influence his musical tastes. He acquires his first guitar, learns to play and performs in hootanannies. Kingston Trio ; guitar ; solo artist ; Hawaii ; Joan Baez ; Bob Dylan ; hootananny ; Woodie Guthrie 0 1421 Influence of political assassinations and discrimination on development of political leanings Rafael reflects on turbulent times during high school including several political assassinations and how they affected him. His Jewish family experienced discrimination through redlining. political assassination ; Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; John Fitzgerald Kennedy ; Robert F. Kennedy ; Covina ; West Covina ; Jewish ; redlining ; John Birch Society 0 2236 The Vietnam War The Vietnam War begins, and Rafael discusses having to register for the draft. He attended college for one year and re-connects with his future wife, Lauren, at this time. draft ; anti-war ; college ; California State University Fullerton ; conscientious objector 0 3098 Move to Oregon Rafael talks about moving to Oregon, joining the counterculture movement, and getting arrested for drugs after an undercover operation. counterculture movement ; Oregon ; drugs ; arrest 0 4886 Move to Escondido and birth of first child After the loss of Rafael's father, he and he wife move to Escondido to help tend his family's avocado orchard. Soon after, their first child, Jamaica, was born. Escondido ; avocado orchard ; first child ; Jamaica ; natural childbirth ; grove service 0 5483 Making headway with music career Rafael discusses the development of his music career in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase is a key highlight of this development. During this time he forms a duo with Rosie Flores. Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase ; Colin Young Band ; Goldmine ; Rosie Flores 0 6807 Opening act for Rick Danko and subsequent connections and successes Having moved back to North San Diego County, Joel recounts his big break in opening for Rick Danko and the subsequent pattern of becoming an opening act for many successful bands. Rick Danko ; promoter 0 7180 Becoming knowledgeable about Woody Guthrie Rafael begins to research Woody Guthrie and the people he had influenced. He learned a number of Woody Guthrie songs. Woody Guthrie ; Bob Dylan ; Harold Leventhal 0 Oral history Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is August 20th, 2025. This interview is taking place at Joel Rafael's studio at his home in Escondido, California, which is on the unceded territory of Luiseño/Payómkawichum people. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.094 You're welcome. 00:00:29.094 --> 00:00:33.725 Alright, so let's start off with the early years. When and where were you born? 00:00:33.725 --> 00:00:39.234 I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1949, May 11th. 00:00:39.234 --> 00:00:56.274 Okay. So you've been writing and performing for over fifty years beginning in the sixth grade. So how did it come to be that you were performing at such a young age, and how did you learn to play music and-- 00:00:56.274 --> 00:06:26.115 Well, I grew up in California 'cause my parents moved us out here to the Los Angeles County area in, when I was about three years old. So I guess probably 1952. And the California school districts had a really great music programs in those days. And so I was fortunate for the whole time that I was in school up through high school there was an excellent music program in every school that I was in. So it was probably about the fourth grade a music director came around to our classroom and basically, you know, Who wants to be in the band? And handed out, I guess some kind of a permission slip. And I jumped on that right away. I already was a music lover just from playing phonograph records at home. I think I mentioned this to you before, but I was a latchkey kid before the term was invented. So, in my early elementary school days when I would get home from school, I literally had a key on a shoe string to open my door because my parents were both at work. And I would fill my time with--a lot of my time with--going through my parents' records and just exploring the music they had. So that's how my love for music first started. And then, and of course, I had a little phonograph myself with a lot of children's records and children's music and that kind of thing. But I started playing music in the fourth grade, beginning band. I started out as a drummer. I had already taken some accordion lessons because my brother, who's two years older than me was taking accordion lessons. And that was kind of the mode, you know, everything my brother did then my parents would have me do that later. And so he was playing accordion so then I was playing accordion. But I started out on this small little twelve bass accordion and progressed pretty quickly. But unfortunately, I was pretty small in stature. And so when it was time for me to move on to the bigger accordion, it was really just, it was too much to handle. So that was the end of my accordion lessons. And then it was shortly after that, that this band thing happened at school, and I decided I would play the drums, which in beginning band meant the snare drum. So that was kind of how I started out, just playing the beats on the snare drum. And at a certain point, I really wanted a drum kit. And at some point, I guess it was probably around the fifth or sixth grade--probably around the fifth grade--I was able to coerce my dad into going to a music store. I think it was in Pomona, California. And we bought a used, really put together drum set and moved that into my bedroom. And then I started to bring some of my school friends over on the weekends. My mom would take me over, we would pick up a couple of friends and bring 'em to my house. And one of 'em played the trumpet and one of 'em played the clarinet, also beginning band members. And we worked out some very simple tunes. That was kind of my first combo. And by the time I got into junior high school, a better drum kit was required. And somehow I managed to get my dad to buy that for me. And I guess my second band was a surf band in a friend's garage in the town I lived in. I would ride my bike over there. My drums were parked in the garage at his house. Robbie Brandon was his name. And he had a friend named Lynn Lewis. And they--one of them played--Robbie played guitar, electric guitar, and Lynn played bass. So it was a three-piece band. And we basically played surf band covers--a few Everly Brothers songs that required singing, and neither of them sang. So we bought a boom microphone, and I was a singing drummer. As a drummer going into high school, I started playing a, well, I guess you'd call it a cover band. We were playing the, basically the songs that were on the radio at that time. And that was about the time that The Beatles became prevalent in the years of the U.S. And we were playing some Beatles songs and Rolling Stones songs and stuff like that. School dances, sock hops. Back in those days, they didn't have DJs. We always had live bands. And so I was one of those lucky kids that was in one of those bands. And that was a great experience as a kid. It was--really felt unique to be in a musical group. So let's see, should I continue on the musical path? Am I jumping the gun here? 00:06:26.115 --> 00:06:31.110 Well, no, I think we're gonna' get into it more. 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:33.435 Okay. I was just kind of tracing my musical-- 00:06:33.435 --> 00:06:35.245 Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:35.245 --> 00:16:42.325 --progress. From there, folk music became, started to become popular probably around 1959, 1960. And, they call it the Folk Scare of the Sixties. And I think that's because no one ever thought that folk music would be played on the radio, and some of the stuff that was played on the radio was the more commercial kind of folk stuff, like the Kingston Trio. And John Denver, I guess, was probably around that time. Chad Mitchell Trio. I think John Denver was in the Chad Mitchell Trio before he was a solo artist. So those were the songs I was listening to. I remember Joan Baez had a hit with a Phil Ochs song called, There but for Fortune, that really intrigued me. And I just felt the necessity to, at that point, to kind of step away from the drum kit and learn how to play the guitar so that I could be up front singing the songs. And so I talked my parents into going to, down to Tijuana during the summer, probably the summer of '61, maybe. And we bought a very inexpensive guitar in Tijuana. I think it was about 30, 35 dollars. And that's what I learned to play the guitar on. I had a couple of friends that were--they had, there were about four of 'em, school friends, that had put together a little group, and they were doing mostly Kingston Trio songs. And I went up to play with them when they had their rehearsals, a couple of times. Just enough to learn a few chords and a couple songs. And then I was on my own. I was a solo artist from then on. I'm not sure why, but I just decided I was gonna' do my own thing. And so I started learning songs and getting better on the guitar. Around 1960--probably the summer of 1963--might have been--it was either '63 or '64. Might have been '64. Anyways, one of those two years. My dad decided to take my family on a family vacation for the summer to Hawaii. Hawaii had just become a state like a few years earlier. And he was curious about it, and we were curious about it. So we took a trip there, and we went to a few different islands, I think three different islands. And the third island we went to was, was the island of Kauai, which was very undeveloped at the time. And so we landed in Kauai, and we stayed at a place called the Hanalei Plantation, which is still there. It's a resort hotel that was originally a sugar plantation. And at the time, I think it was the only like sort of resort or hotel to stay at on the island of Kauai. It was just, there just wasn't much there. So we checked into our rooms, and right after we got into our rooms, my parents got a phone call from a guy who had just checked in and had noticed that my parents were from the same town, Covina, California. And he invited my parents and me and my brother to come down to the little restaurant bar area at the hotel and have a drink. So we went down there to meet this guy. And this is kind of an anecdotal story, but I think it's an important one. So when we met him, he was very much like a John Wayne kind of character, big cowboy kind of dude. He'd already had a few drinks, so he was obviously a drinker. He started telling us his story. And he had told us that he was one of the original models for the Marlboro Man posters with the cowboy and the horse that you'd see along the highways at that time. And he was a stunt man, had been in the Marine Corps. He told us that he had--that they had filmed Mister Roberts there at Kauai. And they had done a lot of filming at Hanalei. And that was one of the reasons he came back there 'cause he was familiar with it. But when they did that movie, he was the guy that drove the motorcycle off the pier in the scene where the sailors get liberty and they get off the ship. And then they're celebrating, this one guy drives a motorcycle off the pier into the ocean. And it was this guy, Jack Lewis. And he told us that he was there, that he was partners with a guy in Covina that owned a magazine called Gun World, which, you know, back in the early sixties, it was a just a, an NRA type magazine, but not the NRA as the NRA is today. It was more about hunting and gun safety and the newest rifles and firearms that were on the market or whatever. And so he said, yeah, he was there to take a helicopter flight the next day into some uncharted areas of Kauai to take some photographs of this rifle that he had. And it was like a .38 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight on--like big hunting gun. And he looked at my brother and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And my brother said, No. And so he looked at me and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And I said, Yeah. And my dad said, no, no, no, no, he can't go. He's too young. You know, I think I was fifteen and--just had turned fifteen. And this guy goes, oh, please sir, let your son go. This will be the adventure of a lifetime. I'm not gonna' be flying the helicopter. I've chartered a pilot and a photographer, and there's four seats, so there's an extra seat in the helicopter, and you should really let your son go. This will be like a once in a lifetime experience. And my dad relented and said, okay. So next morning we go down, and there was a place where a helicopter could land at Hanalei. We walked down there and met him, and then the helicopter came in and landed, and we got in the helicopter, and we flew out over these just amazingly scenic places on the island of Kauai. And landed about three different times where this guy Jack got out and walked a hundred yards away from the helicopter and fired a couple shots and walked back towards the helicopter with the gun. And we did that about three or four times. And I think due to his alcoholic nature, he was pretty exhausted by the time we got back in the helicopter to fly back to the resort. And on the way back, he said you know, he complimented me. He said, boy, we really worked our, you know, off today. Um, you know, kid, thank you. You really helped me out. You know, he's just giving me all this hot air. And so on the way back, he says to me, How do you like this gun kid? And I, you know, I'm fifteen years old, you know, 19-early sixties, and I said, oh, you know, I love the gun. It's awesome. I don't even know what I said, but that was my, what I implied to him is that I really thought it was great. So he says, It's yours. So, you know, I'm fifteen, right? So we get off the plane and I'm carrying this rifle in a leather case, walking toward my dad, who really did not like guns at all. He was a World War II Veteran. He had been in the invasion of North Africa, and he'd seen plenty of violence that he never talked about it, but it was obvious from the way he felt about guns, even at that time in my life. And so he goes, what are you doing with that? And I go, Jack gave it to me, You know, I'm all excited. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, you don't. Well, this guy, Jack, you know, right away started again on my dad. Oh, sir, you gotta' let him keep it. He told me that you, you have a guy that works for you that goes hunting sometimes, you know, let him keep, let him keep the rifle. He was so great today. He helped me out so much. Just all this BS. And my dad relented. This was like '64. And so after we finished our trip, we flew back to Maui, I think it was, and then back to Oahu with the gun. Checked the gun and the ammunition, flew home with it, you know, it was a different time. Security was not what it is today. Flew home with a gun. The gun went in the closet, the ammo got locked away somewhere. And a month or so later, school started. And I was talking to a friend at school who lived with his dad, single parent, and they went hunting quite a bit. I told him about this gun. He really wanted to see it. And so I brought him home one day after school, and we got it out of the closet, and he looked at it. A couple days later, he called my house and said that he would really like to buy the gun from me. And he offered me $125 for the gun. So I had my eye on this guitar, down with a Covina music store. It was a G-10 Goya Swedish-made classical guitar that was real nice little guitar. And so he paid me the $125. And I went down to that store, and I bought that guitar. And I've never owned a gun since then. So I like to say my gun--my guitar is my gun, and my songs are my bullets. 00:16:42.325 --> 00:16:48.436 Mm. That's profound. So-- 00:16:48.436 --> 00:16:53.529 --that was my start playing guitar. 00:16:53.529 --> 00:17:07.025 Yeah. So can you tell me about the people or music--and you mentioned this a little bit--that influenced you at this young age, and as you moved into performing? 00:17:07.025 --> 00:21:23.755 Pretty much anything that I ran across that was like considered folk music at that time. The schools, it was all of a sudden folk music was sort of happening. It was the sixties folk movement. And the high schools were having what they called hootenannies, sort of like what you called open stages today. But they called it hootenannies, which was a term that was coined by Pete Seeger, when people would get together and share songs. And so we'd have these hootenannies, and they would be like talent contests at the various high schools. There were three high schools in our area. And so I started entering those contests after I'd learned a few songs. And wasn't really writing much at that time. I was just mostly just playing songs. So I was playing songs that were by Joan Baez, the Kingston Trio. There was a guy named Tim Morgan that was a local artist that had influenced me and another guy that I saw in Glendale. There was a lot of small clubs around at that time. Like, there was a club in Balboa Peninsula in Newport Beach area called The Prison of Socrates. And it's still there, but it's like a pizza parlor now. But it was a coffee house that had folk music, like three, four nights a week there. And there was another one in Seal Beach called the Cosmos. And, of course, there was the Troubadour in Los Angeles and the Ice House in Pasadena. There was a second Ice House in Glendale. So they all had open stages. So after I kind of perfected my beginning act with a guitar, I was hitting those open stages and the hootenanny contest at the high school, and I did really well. I was, I would win the first or second place at the hootenannies. And I was able to get on those open stages. And that's kind of where I cut my teeth as a performer, as a young person. So my influences were basically just the songs I was playing, like Richie Havens was an influence. I had a record of his that had a couple of folks songs on it. One was called, Hey, Nelly. Nelly, that I liked to sing. I think that was written by Shel Silverstein. I started to pay attention to writers a little bit. I knew that the song that Joan was doing, Joan Baez was doing, There but for Fortune, was a Phil Ochs song. I heard about Bob Dylan, but I didn't know too much about him. My next door neighbor, who was a couple years older than me, had a Bob Dylan album that she had bought, and she didn't really care for it that much, so she gave it to me 'cause I was curious, And it was, I think it was Bob Dylan's probably his third album. You know, it took me like three albums to actually hear Bob Dylan. It was Another Side of Bob Dylan was the album. And at the first listening, it just like, really took me back. Whoa, that's just so different. You know? It was just I won't say it was repelling or bad, like some people have said. It was just different, you know, it was just so different the way he was using his voice and the barrage of words in the songs. So I picked a couple of songs off of that record that I learned how to play. So he was an influence. Woody Guthrie was an influence, but I didn't really realize it because Woody died the year I graduated from high school, and he was hospitalized for, I think for maybe close to fourteen years before he died. He was institutionalized with Huntington's Disease. And so his songs were around, you know, This Land Is Your Land and This Train (is Bound for Glory), and John Henry, and a few others that were kind of in the popular repertoire that these other groups were doing. So I was hearing groups do some Woody Guthrie songs. So they were, in that sense, some of the first songs I learned how to play, ironically. So that was kind of my high school experience, you know? And so I guess we could pick it up from there. I'm not-- 00:21:23.755 --> 00:21:26.924 Yeah. When did you start writing music? 00:21:26.924 --> 00:21:29.394 I actually wrote probably my first couple of songs-- 00:21:29.394 --> 00:21:32.781 Well, and I guess, how did you learn, that's-- 00:21:32.781 --> 00:29:30.000 Yeah. Well, I don't know. I just, it was just something that I felt I could do. I was listening to songs and deciding which songs I liked. You know, there were songs that stood out and caught me up that I wanted to learn. Some of 'em were too complex for me to learn. I wasn't, skilled enough to just to discern that they were a simple song. But they, by virtue of being in a different key, it was like I could only play in a couple of keys. I had a capo, but I didn't really understand key transitions. I didn't understand that if you put a capo on the second fret of your guitar and play a G, it's actually an A, you know? So you got the whole circle of keys working up the neck of the guitar. And I understood that if I needed the song to be higher, I would move the capo up. If I needed it to be lower, I would move it down or take it off the guitar. But I didn't really know what key I was playing in or understand the relationships between the chord, the chords that were in a certain key. That all kind of came later just from experience, I think. And you meet people along the way. Like I've always--David Amram is the one that said this best. And I've always tried to emulate what he said. He said, I always hang around--try to hang around with people that are smarter than me and more skilled than me because that's how you learn to get better. You know, you don't want to be hanging around with people that--you don't wanna always be the best person there because then you don't ever learn anything. So I try to surround myself with people that know more than I know and are better players than I am, better songwriters than I am, because that's how you improve and develop. And I think that's good advice for anything that, any endeavor. So, let's see, where was I? So in high school, that was a very turbulent time for me. I don't know if that's our next category or not, but as I moved into high school, there was a lot going on. My freshman year in high school, John Kennedy was assassinated, A few years later, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were assassinated, and Malcolm X was assassinated. So this all happened in my youth. And, but these things, these killings of political figures, it was something that was, in my consciousness, was a historical thing. Like Lincoln had been assassinated, and that seemed like to me, as a teenager, seemed like a really long time ago. So, I guess I should mention. So, when I went into high school, I experienced every new school in my area. Okay. So, like in elementary school, I started off in a school called Barranca School. I went there for a year. And then they transferred me over to a new school in West Covina called the Vine School. After two years or three years at the Vine School, they split the districts into West Covina and Covina districts. And I was in the Covina District. So then I went to the new elementary school in the sixth grade, which was a brand new school. So like, no trees, no landscaping, just concrete and pavement and dirt. And so then when I went to junior high school, I went to the established junior high school for one year, my seventh grade year. But in eighth grade, they had built a new junior high school, and they fed that with the two established junior high schools from--depending on where you lived, were fed into that third junior high school. So that was my third new school--no trees, no landscaping, dirt, concrete and pavement. And that was the Sierra Vista Junior High School. And then I went back over to Covina High School, which was the established high school for my freshman year, but they had incorporated--that year they took away one of the junior highs, which was the first junior I'd gone to in seventh grade. That became the campus for most of the freshman classes. But there were some classes, depending on what your curriculum was that you would cross the street over to the high school, to Covina High School. So I was on my way, probably about ten in the morning--I don't, maybe it was eleven in the morning on my way from the junior high school campus--the freshman campus--to the high school campus to go to my French class, first year French. And somebody ran by me and said, President Kennedy's been shot. And I was just like, What? You know, I just made my way to my class and my teacher was crying, and everybody, we found out about it, and it was just like, it was so devastating. It's hard to explain how devastating that was. Because these kind of events we take for granted now. They happen so frequently. We hear about people being killed, or mass shootings, or we hear about even political leaders being killed, heads of corporations being targeted. And it's just like the news of the day. But like when I was, I guess I was thirteen, to have somebody run by and say, the President's been shot. That was shocking, you know? And, and I remember they ended school day that day--within about an hour they ended the school day. And by the time I got home, he was pronounced dead. And I just remember that the silence. There was this silence everywhere. We went up to get something to eat at a restaurant, and there were some other people there, but it was just completely silent and somber. So that was a very emotional experience, and I think it, in some ways, it set a tone for the rest of my experience as a kid. A lot of questions. So then, after my freshman year in high school, there was a new high school near my house. So I went to the new high school as a sophomore. And that was the year that--the summer before my sophomore year was the year that I received that rifle and swapped it for the guitar. So, as a sophomore in high school, I was starting to play the guitar quite a bit and be known kind of as a folk singer. Let's see. (Tear in my eye, sorry.) So, let's see. Moving on through high school. I was politically oriented by the time I got into high school when we had moved to the town of Covina. I guess I should back up. When we first moved to California, we lived with one of my aunts and uncles, my dad's sister, for a few months before we got our own place in La Canada, which is near Pasadena. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.000 Beautiful. 00:29:31.000 --> 00:37:00.704 Yeah. And it was pretty rural at that time outside of Pasadena. My dad had a business in Pasadena--a screen door company. We lived there for about three years. And then we moved to Covina. I didn't know until just a couple years ago--we actually lived in West Covina--even though we were right on the edge of Covina, my dad's business was in Covina, I was in the Covina School District. Even though we were in West Covina, technically. And the reason we were in West Covina--I found out later--was because there was a red line in Covina, and if you were Jewish, you couldn't buy a home in Covina. And some--my dad, we were Jewish and not religious, but just happened to be Jewish. And Covina was an area where there just, there wasn't really any any sign of other Jews around. It was pretty much, you were really in the minority. I mean, you were already in the minority, but I mean, when you moved, when we moved to Covina, there weren't any synagogues or temples, not really a path to continue being religious in any way. We weren't really that religious anyways, I don't think. My dad's family was, I guess what you'd call reformed Jews, pretty liberal Jews. And so there was that sense of isolation a little bit. And I know that my dad he wanted to join the golf club and was turned down. Many years later when my dad had established himself as a community leader, they invited him to join, and he didn't. He turned them down. So, let's see. I had a political orientation because my dad ran for school board. There was a couple of propositions on the ballot when I was--you know, I wasn't voting or anything, but I was just in my parents' household. And I was exposed to the politics that they were experiencing. And at the time that that red line was not just for Jews, but it was also for Black people. And I think probably for Latinos. And there was a law that came up for repeal. It was called the Rumford Act (Rumford Fair Housing Act). And it was the repeal of the Rumford Act--I guess it allowed people to discriminate when selling their house. So if somebody came to buy your house and they were of a minority that you didn't approve of, then you could legally just say that it wasn't for sale anymore or whatever. So there was a repeal of that law that came up, and my dad got really got behind it--a repeal of the Rumford Act. So you couldn't, you could not discriminate anymore. And that passed. And as a kid, we drove around town in a van putting up stickers on telephone poles and anywhere we could put stickers for the No on whatever the proposition was. Fourteen. I can't remember. (It was Proposition 14.) So that was kind of my early political experience, standing up for something that was important to my dad turned out to be important to me, too, in the long run. Although I probably, as any kid, I was probably pretty much unaware of what the real issues were. But I remember the '60 presidential convention. It was on my television, like for the whole time it was on, and I--and that's when I first saw John Kennedy and was just completely taken up with his charisma as a kid. We see films now and stuff, but it's hard to, I think, to really grasp the experience of that time--how it affected the Baby Boomer youth. Anyways, so my dad ran for school board and because there were two seats open on the school board, and there was already two members of the school board that were members of the John Birch Society, which is--I like to describe as the embryo of the MAGA (Make America Great Again) movement. They were headquartered in a town called San Marino, and I dunno, they were ultraconservative, extremist organization--right-wing extremist organization. And my dad--there were also two people running for the two seats on the board that were also in the John Birch Society. So there would've been four members of the school board if they won, that were in the John Birch Society. And there were about maybe fifteen people running for those two seats. And it's a nonpartisan election. It's not a Democrat or Republican election. It's completely nonpartisan. But these John Birch Society members had made it into a partisan thing because they wanted to (reject) federal funding for schools and wanted to write their own local curriculum, a lot like what Oklahoma's doing right now and Florida and some other states. So he got together with a friend of his that was, just happened to be my pediatrician, and my dad was what you would call in those days moderate Democrat. And my pediatrician was a moderate Republican and explained the situation, and they decided that they would form a ticket. And then they invited all of the people that were running for the two seats except for the two members of the John Birch Society over to our house and had a meeting. And basically the end of the meeting was that everyone would drop out of the election and get behind my dad and and my doctor as a ticket to defeat extremists that were trying to take over the school board. And they won. And then my dad later became the president of the school board. So that had a very strong impact on me. Just the strategy of doing that and the way that they managed to win in that situation. That was probably when I was like a freshman or sophomore. So, let's see. Going on from there, what's the next thing on the list? 00:37:00.704 --> 00:37:05.215 Right. So obviously during that time of turmoil of the Vietnam War-- 00:37:05.215 --> 00:37:06.684 --okay. I was thinking that might be right. 00:37:06.684 --> 00:37:11.224 And so the question was how did the Vietnam War affect to your life path and music? 00:37:11.224 --> 00:37:16.625 Majorly. Majorly. 00:37:16.625 --> 01:00:48.764 I guess we started hearing about it when I was a sophomore, just hardly anything. And by the time I was a junior, we're hearing more about it. We didn't know where Vietnam was. Never had heard of Vietnam. I mean at that time, the world was a lot smaller place. It's like sixty years ago. By the time I was a senior, the reality that I was gonna' have to register for the draft on my eighteenth birthday just became more real to me. It wasn't something I really thought about that much, but approaching the age of eighteen, I knew that as soon as I was eighteen, I was required to register for the draft. And there wasn't a lottery or anything then. It was just, you just had to register for the draft. And then it was really more about your pre-induction physical and whether you were going to college, depending on whether you would get a deferment or what category you would be placed into. And I gotta' say, I didn't know anything about the war. I think maybe the bodies were just starting to come home, but we weren't seeing that much of that yet. But I knew it was a war, and I knew that some people that were drafted were being sent over there. And it was scary. It was scary to me 'cause I was already basically, I think, probably by influence of the songs and stuff that I had been learning, I was already pretty much decidedly anti-war. And I was never like a physically, like a fighter, you know? It just wasn't in my nature. And so the whole idea of it really scared me. And there was one teacher that I had that was a Navy veteran. And I don't know if I just went and talked to him or somehow, he ended up kind of counseling me about it. And he was just sort of really downplaying it, like most people don't get hurt when they're in the military. The percentage of people that are actually wounded and hurt is really low compared to the percentage of people that are in the military. And you have as much chance of being killed in an auto accident as you do of being wounded or killed in a war. I wasn't buying any of it, you know, I just wasn't buying it. And it didn't help me one bit, that conversation. So my birthday came around, I registered for the draft. I was planning to go to college, which I did. I think that was a tough road for me right then because my brother, who was two years older, had gone through this whole thing before me and was in college. He was like, I think he was a junior when I was gonna' be a freshman. And he picked a school to go do that was very expensive. And somehow my parents managed to come up with the money to put him through school at USC (University of Southern California). And then when it was my turn to go, I think they were just kind of--they had kind of done that and kind of burned up the budget, burned up the program, burned up the energy on it. It's a lot to get your kid into college. A lot of support system that's needed and hooking you up with the right information and the right kind of counseling. I didn't have good counseling at school.and my parents were just, I think they were just busy. And so I didn't get a lot of guidance about school. My grades were, they were good enough to get into college, but they were marginally good enough to get into college. I had a couple of subject areas that, I was like a C student and mostly Bs and a couple As maybe. So I applied to Cal State Fullerton. It was a new school, and it was close by. And it was convenient. It wasn't necessarily a school that I wanted to go to or that I--it was just, it was sort of the most convenient four-year school. And I applied there, and I got in. So I went to Cal State Fullerton for my freshman year. My first semester I did okay. But by the time my second semester rolled around, I was pretty deeply immersed in--well, I guess you'd call it counterculture transition. Really started probably in my senior year. There just started to be--I don't even know how it all started, the whole counterculture thing. Maybe it was because there was experimentation being done and articles being written and featured in papers and magazines about LSD and about increased cannabis use and the younger generation and the Sunset Strip and the hippies on the Sunset Strip. That would just, was all just happening right in front of me as I was about to leave high school, my senior year in high school. So probably towards the end of my senior year in high school, I started smoking pot with some friends. There weren't very many people that were doing it. Like in my school, there were probably, I could probably count on my hand the people in my high school that I knew that had also smoked pot. And the interesting thing about it was that the demographic of those seven to ten people crossed all social lines. And that hadn't happened to me before. When I was in high school, the social scene was a caste system. There were the poor kids, there were the Mexican kids that were like--the element of the Latino population that were more like the sort of the, I dunno' if they were in gangs, but just had that energy. They dressed differently. They were kind of like the greasers, you know? And then they were the soces (socials or socialites) that had a little bit more money, mostly college prep kids, that dressed a little nicer, you know? And I was kind of on the edge of that group, you know? And, but all of a sudden, people that I would never have talked to or never have known or interacted with were people that I had smoked pot with on the weekend. So at school, all of a sudden you're crossing those lines. You're walking to class and you encounter somebody that's not in your social group at all, and it's like, Hey, Tony! Hey Joel! And other people are going like, Well, how do you know him? It was, but it was very open. There was a--something about it that felt really good in that kind of opening of societal boundaries. And so the last, probably last semester of high school, was very much that kind of a atmosphere, where I was interacting with kids that I hadn't normally interacted with. (We're doing okay there.) And so that kind of set the tone for my college experience. So by my second semester of college, I had--through a guy who was one of my best friends in college and his brother--kind of found my way down to Laguna Beach, which was like, you know, Fullerton was, from where I lived, halfway to Laguna Beach already, And my best friend's brother was the same age as my brother. He was two years older. But they had immigrated here from Canada, like maybe around eighth grade, freshman year high school. So they were basically Canadians, but they were living here. And this Canadian kid, Don, he became my best friend. And his brother was not a soc. He was more, you know, they didn't have a lot of money, my friends. So him being a little older, was kind of in that poor kid, not gonna' be going to college.. perceived as tough and dangerous. They weren't, they were just kids like us, but that was the perception. So anyways, he ended up initially turning us on to marijuana. And it became kind of a regular thing for us, but it moved us away from alcohol. So--'cause a lot of us were drinking at parties and stuff like that, stuff that kids do sometimes in high school. I was definitely open to experimentation as a teenager. So that through him and some people he knew from Claremont that moved to Laguna Beach, I ended up spending the summer--a lot of my second semester and the summer after--in Laguna Beach. And by the time that the school year was rolling around again, I was also spending a lot of time in Los Angeles because there, that's where the open stages were and I was playing music on the Troubadour and the Ice House and the Ash Grove on their open stage nights. And then any other places I could play little coffee houses, that was all still kind of happening. And so I didn't go back to Cal State Fullerton. I decided I was going to enroll at LA City College, the community college in Los Angeles, which would satisfy my 2-S status with the draft. That was basically the reason I was gonna' continue school. I didn't have any academic goals at that point. My goal was to stay out the Army, stay out of the military. And continue hanging out with my counterculture friends. And playing music. And so I rented an apartment in Los Angeles. I got a job working at a liquor store on Sunset Boulevard called Turner Liquors, right on the Sunset Strip. And I was a delivery boy to the stars. So all these movie stars that lived up in the Hollywood Hills and Beverly Hills and everywhere would order their liquor from this place called Turner Liquor Store. And I was the delivery boy. So I met a lot of really interesting people during that time that I delivered liquor to from that store. I worked there for probably, I don't know, probably six months. I went to register at LA Community College. I was late. I went like the last day to register. The way I tell the story is I paid my, whatever it was, $65 or $70 registration fees, went around to pick my classes, which were pretty much--everything I wanted to take was filled. And, pretty much all that was left was like second year basket weaving, prerequisite required. So before the night was over, I went back to the office and just gave them everything back, and they gave me my money back. And I was out of school. Within a few months, I was 1-A with a draft. And that was in 1968. The end of 1968. So my parents were very concerned, like, You need to be in school. Why did you drop out of school? Now you're gonna', now you're a 1-A. You're gonna' get drafted. I said, I'm not gonna' go. My dad encouraged me to apply for a conscientious objector status. So I went through that process, and at the same time, my friends in Laguna--I just, I was hanging out there a lot. There were a lot of acid trips, other psychedelics--no hard drugs but just basically marijuana and mescalin and LSD, mind-expanding experiences with other people, like-minded people. And they had determined--because the police were starting to be very, more proactively enforcing against the counterculture. You know, anybody that looked like a hippie or had long hair or wore bell bottoms or a tie-dyed shirt, you were a target to the police. And in Southern California, it was particularly hostile in certain towns, more so than others. And a few of our friends that were like maybe a little older in the counterculture had moved up to Oregon, up to the Northwest. They were gonna'--in groups, communal groups, we were gonna buy property, find jobs up there and try to make a new life, a different value system. And the people that I was kind of hanging out with decided they were gonna' go to Oregon, and they really wanted me to go with them. And it was big decision time. I was in sort of in the middle of my conscientious objector application process. I had to apply, and then they set up a meeting or an interview with the draft board. Between the time that I applied, which was probably a few months until I got my interview, I was counseled by a guy, who was like a Quaker. He was the father of a friend of mine who, father of a person--who actually later became the guitar player in my, in the Joel Rafael Band--that we'd gone to school together and played a little bit of music together. But he, his, they were Quaker background, and he was counseling kids on the draft because they were pacifists and were encouraging kids that wanted to be conscientious objectors, trying to help them succeed at getting a conscientious objector status. It became known to me at that time that if you were Jewish, your chances of getting a CO were very slim just because you were Jewish, by reputation, I guess, I don't know--Jewish people were thought of as fighters. I don't know why, but it was just a fact that if you were a Jew, you could get a CO, but it wasn't likely. So I did everything I could with, through the counseling, to learn what I could to have a proper interview. And I went for my interview and within a month or two after my interview, they sent me a 1-A. Sorry, you're a 1-A. And so that was about the time that we moved up to Oregon, about twelve or thirteen of us, caravanned up there in a few different vehicles. We didn't have a place. We were just going to the home of some other people that we knew that had moved up there who said, Yeah, you can come and stay with us until you could find a place and get jobs and this kind of thing. And so we headed up there--I just kind of just put it behind me. I didn't care. I was 1-A, I didn't care. I, it was like, Screw the draft board, screw the military, screw the Vietnam War. I'm not going, I don't believe in any of that stuff. And other things are important to me. So I'm going with my friends to the Northwest, and we're gonna' somehow buy a piece of property, and we're all gonna' build our own houses on the property, and we're gonna' have our own community. This is kind of the dream. I see the counterculture people at that time in a couple of different categories. So there were the antiwar protestors. There were the, just the flat out druggies that just, you know, went down. And then the back-to-the-landers. And that was kind of my group. New value system, back to the Earth, all that stuff. And so that formed my value system. I think that, and I've freely admitted that I think that psychedelics had something to do with that. I have friends and for myself as well, you know, when people ask me, How did you become an artist? You know, how did you remain an artist? Sometimes it surprisingly it will start with, Well, when I was a young adult, I took some LSD. That sounds funny, but I mean, there's a truth to that. And now people are microdosing on some of these things, like people that you would never imagine would even try something like that. Or using it for like, mental health therapy and stuff. I think that the counterculture--us counterculture kids--actually pioneered some stuff that stuck. We didn't change the world like we thought we were going to, but we did help perpetrate some changes. So we got up there, and I was contacted--forwarded a letter from my parents saying you're 1-A. You need to be at your draft--at this address on this date for a pre-induction physical to determine if you're physically fit to be in the military. So I'm in Oregon, and I'm supposed to come down to California to go for a physical, and I'm just thinking like, I'm not gonna' get down there for that. And so somebody, I don't know if, how I thought of it, somebody must have said like, Well, why don't you write to your draft board and tell 'em you live in Oregon now? So I did that, and it took them a minimum of three months--it might have been longer, it might have been four months or five months--before they wrote me back and said, Okay, your draft board has now changed to Eugene, Oregon. And this is your pre-induction physical notice. So you're to go to the induction center in Eugene,--or maybe it was in Portland, I don't know where it was--for your pre-induction physical on such-and-such date. So I thought, well, I guess I'll just write them a letter and tell 'em I moved back to California, which I did, and they followed suit several months later, changed my draft board back to Pasadena and sent me another pre-induction physical notice. So then I wrote them another letter, and I told them that I've moved up to Washington state. And so a couple months later I got a letter that said, We've determined that you are avoiding your pre-induction physical. And so on such-and-such date, you are to go to any draft board anywhere and report for an induction physical. And if you're found to be physically fit, you'll be immediately inducted into the armed services. Well, we were living, at that point, we had separated from the group that we had moved up there with. And we were just like a couple and we had-- 01:00:48.764 --> 01:00:50.018 --so this is you-- 01:00:50.018 --> 01:00:51.157 me and Lauren. Yeah. 01:00:51.157 --> 01:00:52.525 And where did you meet? 01:00:52.525 --> 01:00:53.000 We met in high school. 01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:55.317 Okay. 01:00:55.317 --> 01:21:17.420 Yeah, Lauren and I met in high school. Just to backtrack a little bit. I guess it was my junior year. We were both in a play together. And my mother had been--who knew Lauren's mother through the PTA or something--had asked me a few different times, Do you know so-and-so's daughter? She's a year younger than you. Do you know her? I don't think so, but I was kind of wondering who she was. And then I realized that she was in the play. And so she was in the--we had like a multi-purpose room that was where we did our high school plays. And one day, we were there for a rehearsal right near the beginning of the play. And I walked up and introduced myself to her, and she knew who I was, and I offered her a ride home. I had a license at that point, I was a junior. And gave her a ride home, and we started dating, and we had a very up-and-down relationship for my junior and senior year. You know, we were boyfriend and girlfriend and then we broke up, and then we got back together, and then we broke up, and then we got back together. And then when I was gonna' be leaving for high school (college), I was already on my counterculture journey, and she wasn't. And it just, it wasn't gonna' work out. And so I just broke it off. 'Cause I'm going to college. I'm not gonna' be in town anymore. In fact, I moved out of my house maybe two weeks before I graduated from high school. And she wasn't having it, so she followed me, and she finally caught up with me in Laguna Beach at my friend's place. And so she ended up, she was a freshman at Cal State Fullerton also, which she had applied to go to 'cause she thought that I was going there. But then found out that I dropped out. But now she's at Cal State Fullerton. So she then dropped out of school and took the journey north with the whole group. When we got up there, we were kind of estranged at that point. We were like, What is she doing here? You know? We were so young, you know? So we got up there and within, probably within a month, we figured out that the two of us had a whole lot more in common than the people we'd moved up there with--that come from a different background, different value system even than ours, and not one that we could abide. And so it seemed like an eternity, but it really didn't take that long before we split off and--to make our own way. Got into some trouble in Portland, Oregon. I've got a song about it called Old Portland Town. And there was a pretty vibrant counterculture scene in Portland at that time. And Portland was not the city it is today. In fact, I don't know if you know the history of Portland, but it was one of the--it was very racist at one time. And so nothing like it is today. It's one of the more liberal cities in the country now. But at that time, I think that the general population, like what you would call the typical society, this, I don't know how to really describe it, but just the society in general was very intolerant of the counterculture. And so there was a lot of police. There was a very big counterculture scene in Portland, and it was different than down here. Maybe it was just different than what I'd experienced, but in Portland, it was like the whole counterculture, the whole underground, was like one scene. Whereas down here, the people I was hanging with, we were all sort of like-minded. We weren't druggies. We were smoking pot, and we were experimenting with psychedelics, but we weren't doing hard drugs. But in Portland, the hard druggies, the thieves, the hippies, I mean, it was all just mixed up, you know? And there was--they infiltrated the scene with an undercover cop, who infiltrated the scene for about six months. And that was when Nixon was President. And they had, he had the Department of Justice had instigated the no-knock law. So they didn't need warrants to, if they wanted to raid somebody or search their premises, they could just do it with, I guess with probable cause. But they didn't need a warrant. And they had, so they had the no-knock law, and they had another thing called secret indictments, which instead of, once the grand jury had published an indictment for someone, instead of a warrant being issued, they would just stick that over in a file and just like accumulate indictments on a particular scene, which was the counterculture scene in Portland, basically. And so, while we were in Portland--we had actually, we had been down here. We had just come back up to Portland, and we were visiting at a friend's house, and the door got kicked in. And it was raided by a bunch of cops and plain clothes cops, all their guns drawn. It's pretty scary. And there was probably about twelve of us just hanging around at somebody, at this friend's house getting high. And they kicked in the door and then they basically took each one of us into the bathroom and searched us. And they--I think they called a matron for the girls that were there. And they had two secret indictments on me for sales of hashish. And what I had done is I had given a piece of hashish to this undercover guy, who we didn't trust. When we saw him--the first time we saw him--we were sure he was a undercover guy, sure he was a narc. This was what we called, undercover cops back then were narcs, narcotics officers. Well we were sure he was an undercover narc, and we would have nothing to do with him. People were telling us like, Oh no, he's cool. I got high with him the other day. This kind of stuff. And so after several months went by on a very rainy day, we encountered this guy at a park, where a lot of people used to hang out at Laurelhurst Park in Portland. And there was hardly anybody there. Just us, and he walked up to us and started talking with us. And we were standoffish at first, talking and talking. And then finally he said, Well, I'm gonna' go over to the donut shop down at the corner over there and get some coffee. If you guys wanna' come along, I'll treat. And it was rainy, and it was cold, and we went with him. And we sat there and visited with him for quite a while. And I ended up giving him a piece of hashish--break it off--a piece of hashish that I had, giving him a piece of it. And that ended up being two indictments for sales. And so I had to go through that whole court process up there. It really tied up the whole judicial system because they busted about, I think about 280 people over a period of like three days. So they literally had to empty the drunk tank at the jail. They had to empty the juvenile tank at the county jail to move us all into the jail. And so they moved us from the city jail. I guess we went for an indictment and then they moved us into the county jail, issued us uniforms. It was pretty intense. For some reason, Lauren's charges got dropped. So they arrested her, too, but then they dropped her charges--'cause they didn't really have anything on her--the next day. But they had these two indictments on me. There was a bail bondsman that was interested in bailing me out, but my parents decided that they would leave me in jail for a week or two to teach me a lesson. I'm not sure it was a really good lesson. But it affected me pretty heavily. I felt pretty abandoned in there. And finally got out, went to trial, and got two five-year probations concurrent. So it was ten years worth of probation, but they were run concurrently. So it was like, I'd be on probation for five years. And that was in 1969. So other thing--I had to leave the state of Oregon. So we came back down here under the, theoretically under the jurisdiction of my parents. But I moved in with a friend in Los Angeles, and Lauren moved in back with her parents. But we were still a couple. Eventually we found a place in Laurel Canyon, a little house. And this was 1970, so it was right when the Laurel Canyon music scene was just like in full swing. Crosby, Stills & Nash were making their second record. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, I guess would've been. And I got a job. I had learned to do leather, to sew leather clothes from a friend that I had met in my travels--that stayed with us for a while in Oregon, and he had moved on. But he had taught me how to make leather, how to stitch with an awl and stitch leather stuff. And so I got a job at North Beach Leather in Los Angeles. And one of the people that worked there was David Crosby's girlfriend. So in the afternoons, a couple times a week, David would come into the shop, and I dunno' if you remember any of the early pictures of David Crosby, but he always had the leather jacket with the fringe. Well, it came from North Beach Leather. So he would come in to see his girlfriend towards the end of the day, and he was a very down-to-earth, kind of just easygoing person. So that's when I first met David Crosby. Turned out--and this was after, I don't know if you know his history at all--but he had a girlfriend that was killed in a car crash around that time, previous to when I met him. So this girl that I knew, her name was Shelly, that worked at North Beach Leather also, she was his current girlfriend. And she was living in a little house up in Laurel Canyon. But he, David wanted her to move on to his yacht. He had a yacht called the Mayan, you know, famously known yacht, sailboat of David Crosby's. And so she moved on his sailboat and gave us her little house in Laurel Canyon. So we lived there for maybe, I don't know, the rest of the year, maybe six or seven months, while I worked at the leather shop. And then I got a letter from my friend, who had taught me how to do leather. And he was in Seattle, and he was--he had rented a grocery store, like a little grocery store, corner market type thing, a very old neighborhood market. And there was an apartment upstairs. And he had rented that place--it was no longer a market--so he was turning that into a leather shop and was living in the apartment. It was a two bedroom apartment upstairs. And he invited me and Lauren to come up there and help him start this leather shop. So we moved to Seattle, and that was in 1970. I'm still on probation, so they had to change my probation officer to Seattle. I had like monthly visits to a probation officer. They didn't have drug tests back then, so I was never drug tested, but I would have to go visit my probation officer once a month, just check in. I guess he just sort of looked me over and decided if I was okay or not, I'm not sure. But I had, I think, three different probation officers during that time. So we lived in Seattle for not a year. He ended up finding a girlfriend, and she moved in with us. We had had a perfect trio, you know, a perfect triad. But then when she moved in, it just completely messed up the dynamic. And all of a sudden it just, everything was like a lot of friction, and we realized that we needed to leave. So we started looking for another place, and we found, we drove north to where the town of Everett is, north of Seattle. And we went up into the mountains just looking for a place. Like we were literally looking for some old shack or some old house that we could move into, maybe even squat into, but we were just looking for some other place to live. I was twenty, I guess I was twenty years old, and Lauren was like nineteen or something like that. So we, I'm trying to think. Sometimes my chronology's not perfect. Anyway, we moved up there, we moved out of the place in Seattle, and we found a place on the Mountain Loop Highway that runs from a town called Granite Falls. Like we would take the road towards Snohomish, and then you'd hit this town called Granite Falls. And then from there, there was a Mountain Loop Road that went through the mountains through the Cascades--western side of the Cascades--and then came back down in Arlington, Washington, which is like further north. And we got up on that road outta' Granite Falls, and we found a place for rent up there. It was called the Olympic Motel. And it were these little cabins about the size of this room. The whole cabin was about the size of this room. And then there was like a house that the manager lived in, and we rented one of those cabins, I think it was like 60 dollars a month. And we put a wood stove in it, and we lived there for about a month. And one day I was driving up a little further up the road, and there was this old house, like a really old barnwood-looking house. And there were two guys working on a car in the driveway in front of the house. It was like a driveway and a creek and a little bridge over the creek and then this house. And then they were working on this car, and they were both like a counterculture, like hippie types, you know, long hair and--and I thought, Wow, it's some of my people. So I pulled over, and I went over and introduced myself. And they took me across the street and through the woods, there was another little cabin there that a couple other, another couple lived in. So I met them. They were all from Illinois, had migrated to the west and were on their way to Canada to avoid the draft. And turned out that the one couple in the small cabin had been in a fender banger accident and didn't have any insurance and were being kind of chased down by the people who they'd had the accident with. Nobody had been hurt but just for insurance. And so they were kind of on the run. They didn't know what to do, so they were gonna' go back to Illinois. So they left, and they said, You can have our house. I said, Well, what's the arrangement? They said, Well somebody in Marysville owns it, and they only use it during the summertime 'cause they have a Girl Scout group. And it was about the size of this room also, but it was a cedar shake covered cabin--very rustic looking cabin--right on the Stillaguamish River, maybe fifty, sixty yards from the Stillaguamish River. And so they moved out, and we moved in. A few months later, the landlord came up one day and knocked on the door. And it wasn't the same people that he told could live in the house, right? So, he told us we could stay there until April. And then that they used the place from April until, I guess, August. And so we'd have to be gone for the summer. So when the summer was over, looking for a place again, we couldn't find one. And we just decided to look up those people in Marysville. So what I did is we went down to a friend of ours' house, and she cut my hair, and my hair was like, down to about here (elbow length). She cut my hair probably about like it is now. And then we went as a couple to this house in Marysville, where the landlord lived and pleaded our case. And, you know, We'd really like to move back in there for the winter. And he said, Well, the outhouse that you've been using--'Cause there was no bathroom. It was an outhouse. Everything was no utilities. We would get our water from a spring in a bucket, like gas cans that were for water. And then we'd pour that in a barrel that has spigot on it over our sink. So we'd have to fill that up about every four days or something like that. It was definitely a back-to-the-land thing. We had kerosene lamps for light, cook stove to cook stuff on. And they said, Well, you can move back in there and pay us 5 dollars a month and build an outhouse, because the outhouse we were using was on the next property over. So we agreed, built the outhouse, and lived there for the next winter. During that winter, we realized that Lauren was pregnant with Jamaica. And we were-- 01:21:17.420 --> 01:21:44.861 That was in 1970? 01:21:44.861 --> 01:21:45.916 That was in 1971. 01:21:45.916 --> 01:21:46.334 Okay. 01:21:46.334 --> 01:24:02.540 And my dad had died in 1970. We had come down to get some leather for the leather shop. Lauren and I had borrowed a friend's panel truck, and we drove down to her parents' house, and we were staying there, and my dad was having some health issues, and he went into the hospital for some tests. And then that morning, about three in the morning, Lauren's mom came in and woke us up and said, Your dad passed away. So we stuck around for about another week and then headed back up north to the leather shop. I was twenty-one, so I lost my dad early. He was sixty-one years old. So we were in this cabin and now we're gonna' have a baby, and one of the guys--the guy who was the manager at the Olympic Hotel and I had become friends, and he was kind of mechanically inclined. And so we found this old Chevy truck. It was a '53 Chevy pickup truck that was parked in an old field. It was like a dead truck out in the field. And bought it for 50 dollars and then he helped me basically rebuild the engine and do like a valve job and a few different things on it. He knew how to do all that stuff. So together we worked on that and got that truck running. And my mom told me, she said, Well look, my dad and my mom had bought some property three miles from here on the same road, just on the other side of 395. Like if you go across 395, the first driveway you hit goes up the hill to the top of the hill over there, three miles from here. And they had bought ten acres there to retire on in 1962, and they had developed it into an avocado orchard. And once my dad passed away whenever my mom would get anything from that property, she would just take it and stick it in a drawer 'cause she couldn't deal with it. And so a few years went by. So '71 rolls around, three years after my dad died, and we were gonna' have a baby. And she says, Well, I will put a mobile home or a trailer on the property if you'll come down and take care of it and help me get out debt with the property, you know, with the grove service. And so that sounded pretty good to us. So that's when we moved back to California. And I was still on probation. And now we're getting to how did I support myself, right? Is that coming up? 01:24:02.540 --> 01:24:19.404 So the move to North County and how, what you did for work during that time. 01:24:19.404 --> 01:28:44.479 So we actually had had Jamaica. We moved onto that property, and we built a shed that looks kind of like the shed I have out in back here. And we moved into that shed. She was like seven or eight months pregnant. And we had a friend that was maybe five years older than us that had her last baby that was natural childbirth--Lamaze method. And she'd had a midwife and a doctor that did home deliveries. And we decided that we wanted to do that. It was unheard of at the time. So we got a lot of criticism from people about that. But we hired this doctor. My brother actually helped me with the money for the doctor, and he agreed to deliver our baby. But he wouldn't come and deliver it in the shed we were living in 'cause we didn't have the trailer yet. And the baby was due in August. We'd been there for the summer. And so my brother was out of town. He lived in San Dimas. So he told us we could stay at his house and have the baby there. So we had the baby at my brother's house in San Dimas, but we were living on this property. And then within a month or so after that, the trailer was moved on--it was like a mobile home, and it was moved onto the property. And we set up household there. I got--my first job was with the grove service that had been taking care of my mom's property. Not to take care of my mom's property, though, but to just to work for them. And I got sent out with a crew of migrant workers to clear some weeds on a hill near Fallbrook. They dropped me off. We loaded in the back of a truck, and they drove us out to different places and dropped us here and there and everywhere. And they dropped me out on Reche Road next to this bank that had to have the weeds cleared with one of those weed sticks. So I did that for about a week and got a real appreciation for how hard the work is that migrant workers have to do. But then, luckily, I was looking for another job the whole time, and I got a job at an irrigation supply at Fallbrook called Southwest Irrigation. And I was like a counter boy, like basically when people come in to buy couplings and elbows and tees and pipe, I would wait on them at the counter. And then I also was, would deliver pipe out to the big jobs they were developing into orchards and kiwis and avocados and all that kind of stuff. At the same time, around that same time, we took a class from the agricultural extension on avocado farming 'cause we had ten acres of avocados that were just coming into production on my mom's property. My mom and my brother were pretty much in charge of all of that 'cause he had taken over my dad's business, and was just considered more legitimate than us. We were like counterculture, like not to be trusted or whatever. So I mean, not that they didn't trust us, but I think that they just--I don't think they thought they could depend on us, you know? So they kind of ran the show, and we needed resources, and I had friends I'd met around here that, we'd learned about avocado farming. And I had other friends that were farmers, and we were trying to do as right as we could by that orchard because it was just coming into production. And there were some things that needed to be done. They needed some equipment they didn't have. We just had our little car that we were driving around in. But we needed a truck, and we needed a tractor. But these are things that my mom and my brother were not interested in financing. And so after about three-and-a-half years there and after the birth of my second daughter, who was born on the property in a teepee, same doctor-- 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:56.796 And what is her name? 01:28:56.796 --> 01:31:31.194 Corrina. 01:31:31.194 --> 01:31:44.247 Corrina. 01:31:44.247 --> 01:33:43.333 Yeah. And so she was born on the property. And sometime shortly after that, I kind of made the plea again, like, look, we need--I think I had a tractor at that point. They'd got me a used tractor. But I said, We need a salary. I mean we have free rent, but we need, we're taking care of a ten acre orchard. We're selling the fruit for you, we're making sure that it's taken care of. And basically the people around here that I knew had told me, They should be paying you like a couple hundred bucks a month besides just giving you a place to live there. So I kind of--what's the word I'm trying to think of?--lobbied for a salary, and they weren't having it, you know? And so I was pretty frustrated with my mom and my brother at that point, and I kind of called their bluff. I said, Well look, if you guys are not willing to put into the property what it needs, then you should probably sell it because it's coming into production, and there's gonna' be a lot of stuff needed. And if you don't do what you need to do, it's just gonna' be a big loss. And so they decided to sell it. So that meant we had to find another place to live. So we had developed some friendships with some folks that we still are very close to. Well actually he's passed away, but, his wife, Lizzie, David and Lizzie, our friends, had a place up in the Sierras near Twain Harte, which is in the gold country off of Highway 49 on the Sonora Pass. And they had a thirty-acre apple orchard. They were also back-to-the-landers, right? They're a little older than us. And actually, they had been able to get the land up there where they went. And so we'd become friends with them, and so we decided, well, let's move up there near them, you know? 'Cause land is a lot cheaper than it is here. So we found a place up there to rent, to try to explore the area. And I was gonna' try to--I was really just trying to make, just starting to make some headway with my music here in California. There was a group in California called The Alternative Chorus. It was in Hollywood. It was called the Los Angeles Alternative Chorus (Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase).And it was run by a guy named Len Chandler and a guy named John Braheny. And they were both songwriters, working songwriters. And if you read Bob Dylan's book, Chronicles, which I didn't read 'til many years later, after I was no longer in touch with Len Chandler, I found out that Len Chandler was a mentor of Bob Dylan's when Bob Dylan moved to New York in the Greenwich Village scene. And he was this Black guy, who was a songwriter who rode a motorcycle and didn't take anything from anybody. He was a real outspoken progressive person. And Bob Dylan had the utmost respect for him, and he outlines it in his book, Chronicles. But anyways, Len Chandler was one of these two guys that ran this Alternative Chorus. And what they did is they, you could make an appointment with them as a songwriter and then you'd show up at this little place in Hollywood that they had behind a house, another little house behind a house, where they would do this Alternative Chorus thing. And they had a cassette recorder. And they would have you play like five or six songs just right there for them into their cassette recorder. And they'd probably do like, do this once or twice a month and have like four or five songwriters come in over a day or over two days. And then they would go through everything and pick out the top songs and contact those songwriters and say, Okay, we picked out two of your songs, and we want you to come and showcase at our showcase night at the Ash Grove on such and such a night. Well, every time I went there, they picked out two of my songs, and they were real champions for me. I'm emotional to talk about-- 01:33:43.333 --> 01:33:44.000 That's okay. Take your time. Yeah. 01:33:44.000 --> 01:58:25.524 Yeah. Because as an artist, you run up against the wall so many times. But these guys, they heard what I was doing, and they acknowledged it, and they showcased my music. It didn't get me that far., but the acknowledgement from two people that were in the business that would let you come in and showcase and make some connections. So I worked with those guys for probably three or four years. Over three or four years, they probably showcased me four or five times at different venues. And some of it led to somebody being interested in a song, a publisher being interested in a song, or something. So we had just--so right when that was happening, we moved up to Calaveras County, which was the county north of where our friends lived. And we were completely isolated up there. It was like, we didn't know anybody, and they were, our friends were fifty miles away. So it was kind of a trip to get there, and we weren't seeing them that often. I didn't have a job, so I found a place in Sonora, a bar that would hire me to play three nights a week at like 50 bucks a night. But that was like a thirty mile drive on windy roads, Highway 49. And the place was called the County Jail. I think I was actually off probation by then. I'd managed to get off probation by then. But it was kind of funny 'cause the place was called the County Jail. And so I would drive there three nights a week and play for two or three hours for 50 bucks. And that's what we were living on. The place we were renting was like a labor house, like a lumberjack labor house up in the woods. And we stayed there about six months, and it was just like nothing happening up there. And I'd just started to make some connections down here, and I just felt like, boy, what a mistake to come up here. Right around that time I wrote a song called Goldmine. And we had met--through a friend in Seattle when we lived there--we had met--Well, let's see how I explain this. We'd met these two older folks, I mean, four or five years older than us, a couple in Seattle that were kind of our grounding people there. And they had been friends with Jesse Colin Young from the Youngbloods, which was a--I don't know if you know who that was, but they were a big group in the sixties. He had that hit song, Get Together, was that big hit song for Jesse. And his brother-in-law, his wife's brother, was a really great piano player. The Youngbloods just broke up, or they were just about to break up, and he was starting another band called the Jesse Colin Young Band. And Scott Lawrence, his brother-in-law, was gonna' be the piano player. So they sent him up there 'cause he was also trying to deal with the draft. And he came up to Seattle to stay with these two older friends that we knew that were friends of Jesse's and Susie Young, to deal with the draft board in Seattle, because he had a letter from Jesse that basically said that Jesse was homosexual and that Scott was homosexual, and they had a relationship and that was gonna' get him outta' the draft. But they couldn't do it in San Francisco 'cause too many people knew who Jesse was. And they wouldn't fly in San Francisco, but in Seattle, nobody knew anybody. So they sent him up there to deal with it, to get out of the draft. And that's how we met him, 'cause he stayed there for about two or three weeks. And so when we came back down to Southern California, then the band, his band, was going. Jesse's band was going, and Scott was in the band. And they were playing in LA after we came back down here. And we kind of finagled our way backstage somehow. You know, we kept saying we knew Scott, and we were trying to get backstage. And all of a sudden, Scott walked by, we go, Hey, Scott. You know? So he brought us backstage, and we met Jesse and Susie, his sister, and so we had cultivated a relationship with them. So now we're in Wilseyville, up in Calaveras County, and I've just written this song, Goldmine. And Lauren writes a letter to Jesse Colin Young and asks him if I can come over to the Bay Area and record this song, Goldmine, in his studio, which, I was--cold feet to do that. But she said, I'm just gonna' write him. All they could say is no. Well, he said yes. So we went over there and recorded the song and then Alternative Showcase showcased that song. A couple different publishers held that song, but nobody ultimately picked it up. So we moved back down here to a little place in Oceanside. A rental place in Oceanside. And we were probably there for under a year. So I, we had a baby and a 3-year-old. Lauren decided to get her Montessori credential 'cause she'd been like a helper at the Montessori school. We still had a baby that was gonna' go to the Montessori school. So she started to get her Montessori training. And I started, was able to procure a lawnmower and an edger, a rake, and a shovel and a hoe. And I started to accumulate some gardening customers up in the LA area. The first one was my brother. And then he had, he knew somebody that needed a gardener. So that was the second client. And then Lauren's aunt lived up in that area. And so she hired me. So I had three gardening clients. So I would drive up on like a Tuesday, stay at my brother's house, next morning, do his gardening, go over to another place in town and do the gardening there. And then it would be about one. I would drive into Hollywood with a stack of reel-to-reel tapes of my songs and hit all the high rises, which are filled with publishers. I'd just go in and look at the directories and find out where all the publishers were. And then I would go to every publisher and drop off a tape. Like every week. And my tapes were like piling up at publishers 'cause nobody was listening to them. They were just getting dropped off there. So that didn't really--one guy actually decided that to hold the song, Goldmine. And they gave me like a letter of intent that they wanted to hold it and so not to show it to anybody else. And that was about three months or four months, and then they decided they weren't gonna' do it. So I have lots of those stories. You have to, it's like shots on goal, you know, you have to take shots on goal to score. So, let's see, from there--we hated that place at Oceanside. And we had our kids back in the school in Fallbrook, where they had been when we lived on my mom's property. And we found a place in Fallbrook to rent. It was an eight-acre avocado orchard with a house on it. And so we were able to parlay our way into being the managers of the orchard for the guy who owned the property in exchange for the rent of the house. So another similar kind of setup. So we lived there for four years. And during that time I started gigging. I actually, I had a job--okay, get back to my jobs again. So I had that job with the grove service. So when, after about two weeks of that, I got the job at the irrigation place. I worked there for about a year. And I left there because one of the guys that was a manager at the irrigation place heard about an opportunity and told me about it. He knew two carpenters, two local carpenters from Fallbrook, that were building a big house, just maybe six miles from here, up in the Olive Hill area between here and Fallbrook. It was a custom home they were building for the guy that owned El Molino Mills that used to make all the health food flour and all that stuff. And I can't think of his name right now. But anyways I got hired on as a carpenter's apprentice with those two guys. And they basically taught me basic carpentry and framing. It was really cool job. They were two older guys, like almost my grandfather's age, that had been carpenters around here for years and old school, you know. And I had to do all the really dirt work. But I learned a lot, that I could put into my personal toolkit. About building and construction and wood and hammers and saws and all that stuff. When that house was done, they didn't have another project, but they got me a job with a construction crew in Oceanside that was building a, it was like a, I think it was an office building. And I went to work with them as a framer for about a month. And I hated it. It was just like, 'cause it was nothing like working with these two old carpenters. These, they were all guys about my age or maybe a little older and just very construction worker kind of energy, and it just wasn't my cup of tea. And so I left there and I looked around for another job, and I got a job at the Fallbrook Enterprise, the newspaper. And I had a part-time job there as a pasting--pasting up the real estate and what do they call 'em? Like the want ads. I forget, there's another name for it. So I was doing like, maybe four pages in the newspaper every week. But it was before computers. So everything was like tape on a light board with an exacto knife. And then you would get, the letters would be generated by one computer that would just generate your copy. You'd put it through a waxer and cut it up and stick it to the grid board on a light table. You've probably seen that stuff, paste-up work like that. So I did that and that was really a, I'd done some of that stuff on my own as a kid. I was always into making posters, and I'd go to the stationary store and get the transfer type. And so I kind of had that already. And then working there, they had all the tools, all the different kind of tapes, and the exacto knife and the waxer. So I really enjoyed that job there, and while I was working there, a guy I had met in LA in auditioning to be in a band that I ended up not being in, had moved to Oceanside. And he had been at the same audition, and we'd all exchanged phone numbers. And he knew that I lived nearby. He was a bass player. So he contacted me. And we ended up forming a duo--me playing my songs and him playing bass and singing harmony. And we worked our way down to an open stage in Encinitas at a club called The Stingaree, which, which was owned by Jack Tempchin. I don't know if you know who he is, but he's the, he goes by Jack Tempchin, Eagles songwriter--Jack Tempchin. He wrote Peaceful Easy Feeling, and Already Gone. He wrote Slow Dancing for Johnny Rivers. He's written multiple hit songs. And he lives in Encinitas, just a regular guy, great songwriter. And I had gotten onto him when we first moved to this area, and we'd become friends. 'Cause he had an open stage that he ran at like a music store over there. It was called The Blue Ridge Music Store in Encinitas. It's not there anymore. So I would go play the open mic there that he ran one day a week, or maybe it was a couple times a month. And then he had some success 'cause the Eagles became really big and his songs were like, their hits. And so he was able to buy a nice house in Encinitas. And he bought a bar, and he thought, Well, I'm gonna' buy a bar and make it into a music club. So he made this club called The Stingaree. It was named after a song he'd written called The Stingaree and which was a song about a big party in San Diego that he'd gone to. And so they had an open stage there one night a week. Before the band would play, they would have an open stage. And so we went down there one night and played the open stage. And the band that was playing that night after us was Rosie Flores and the Screamers, Rosie and the Screamers. And I don't know, you probably know who Rosie Flores is, but she's actually being inducted into the San Diego Music Hall of Fame in September. She's my age, but, and she doesn't live here anymore. But she was, at that time, she was like really well known in the San Diego scene here. And she'd had an all-girl band. And now she had this band called The Screamers. And they were packing the place every time they played there. And so we came in one of the nights and played on the open stage, and she heard me play that song, Goldmine. And she came up to me after that. And she wanted to, she wanted that song, you know, she wanted to play it. So I gave her the song, taught her the song, and then we kind of hit it off. And we started playing together. And we ended up--my friend ended up going to Saudi Arabia to work for some oil company or something, the bass player guy. And so Rosie and I ended up being a duo 'cause her band had broken up. And so it was Rosie Flores and at that time, I was using a different name. I've had like three last names. My born last name, and then a name I took on sort of through the whole draft thing, and then my name now, which has been my name for many, many years, which is a Spanish translation of my middle name. So anyways, the two of us had this duo, and we were playing five nights a week, plus I had the job at the newspaper. So I was making okay money, enough to keep us in groceries and pay our rent. Well, we didn't really have any rent, but pay our expenses, our utilities, and all that kind of stuff. And it was all going along pretty good. And then Rosie decided she was gonna' move to LA because San Diego--there was just like, it's like being a big fish in a small bowl. You couldn't really do anything past what we were doing. We were very popular. We were playing in two different clubs four or five nights a week. But she was the draw. I was the songwriter guy, and she was the singer, so she was singing some of my songs. I was singing some of my songs. And then we were doing a bunch of covers that she was singing, and I was singing harmony. So she decided she was gonna' move to LA, and that kind of left me on my own again. So I didn't have a sound system. We were using her sound system. So at that point, a friend of mine from school named Tad Williams had come into some money. His dad had died and had left him and his brother some money, and he told me that he wanted to be my sponsor. So he was like my first patron, and he bought me a sound system. And he basically--I still had the part-time job at the newspaper--but he made sure that our bills were paid for the next couple years. He'd come out and check on us and see how we were doing. And if we were a little short, he'd give me a thousand dollars, to last me in the next couple months. And that got us through, so I could continue to play music. So I was hauling my sound system to a club over in Cardiff three or four nights a week. And it was just basically playing in a bar for four hours a night. Pretty rough gig. So I did that. Then he got killed in a plane crash. And so that was over. That was about the time that--there was a paper in Oceanside called the Blade Tribune at that time. And it was--I forget--it was owned by a company that owned a bunch of newspapers. And the guy who owned the newspapers was the father of this guy, who became a fan of Rosie and myself. He would come to a lot of our shows. So when she left town, he continued to support me, coming to the shows and stuff like that. And he was the music editor at the Blade Tribune. This is a little bit outta' chronology, but this is about 1976-77 is when, she probably left town in '77. And so I was doing these solo gigs at a few different clubs here and there. And just trying to kinda' keep my head above water. And Rick Danko, the band, you know the band? They had just done that movie, The Last Waltz, and the band had broken up, that was like the end of the band. And then Rick Danko, the bass player from the band, started a band of his own, just called the Rick Danko Band. And this guy, who was the Blade Tribune editor, called me up one day and said, Hey, Rick Danko is gonna' be playing at the La Paloma Theater. He is doing two shows on this one night in like an early show and a late show, and they don't have an opening act. Here's the promoter's name. You should go over there and talk to 'em. So I went over there, and I got the gig. So that was my first opening for a national touring act. I opened two shows for Rick Danko at the La Poloma Theater. And Rick Danko and his brother, Terry, came out during my set for both shows, up in the balcony and listened to my set and really liked my songs. And so Rick and I became friends. And he had me open a couple more shows for him when he was in California. 'Cause he would travel all over the place, and he lived in Malibu at the time. So I kind of became a sometime opening act for Rick Danko, who would be traveling with all kinds of people. One of the times in his band was Paul Butterfield--was in his band, or different really high-visibility players that he would pick up along the way and they--so I got to meet a lot of people through Rick. Like I met Paul Butterfield. I actually went to Rick Danko's birthday party, his 40th birthday party, in Malibu. And I met Richard Manuel and his wife from the band and Garth Hudson from the band. They were both at his party. And then I met Joe Cocker through him. I met Bobby Norwood through him. I mean, just a number of people that he would be interacting with me, would just introduce me as his friend and songwriter friend of his. And because I opened that show for him, I got the idea like, Wow, there's all these national shows coming into town. There's like three different promoters promoting in different venues. And so those became my targets. Instead of playing in bars for four hours with cigarette smoke and nobody listening, I started--every time I'd hear about a concert, I'd just keep my eyes on the ads and as soon as someone would be announced, I'd go hit up the promoter. I had a review from the Rick Danko show that was written by my friend, where I had a really good mention, and I parlayed that to a show with Jesse Colin Young when he came to town, because I knew him already. And then that--I ended up getting a show with John Lee Hooker from that, Country Joe and the Fish from that, Emmylou Harris. I mean, the list is like really long, you know? And I did that for the next maybe few years. At one point I did have another job after the Jazzercise job (Joel worked as the audio person on video tapes of original Jazzercise classes created by Judi Missett.), with Community Ed (education). A friend of ours, was working in the Community Ed system, and she said, I think that you could teach on a limited credential--it's like a lifetime limited credential based on experience--in the Community Ed department for senior citizens that are in like rest homes and convalescent hospitals. And so for about a year, I sang songs and played movies that I would rent at the library for senior citizens in rest homes. I would interface with the activities directors at these various homes. And through the Community Ed system, I would go and do a two-hour class for their activities of these homes. It was one of the hardest jobs I ever had. But it served me really well because it was a really good hourly rate. And I could do it like two days, three days a week without having to spend all my time at work while I was trying to do music and art. 01:58:25.524 --> 01:58:28.534 So the classes were music you were teaching? 01:58:28.534 --> 02:05:50.564 Well, they wanted--initially she wanted me to do like an exercise class, just a stretching class with these older folks that are like my age now. But I didn't have any experience in that. So I said, what I could do is I could--I found out that there were a lot of films available, 16-millimeter films back then, through the library system that I could check out. And most of the centers had projectors. So I would go in, I would show them a half-an-hour film on just an interesting subject. I mean, it might be Will Rogers' California Ranch or it might be a documentary about an old guy that lives in Oregon that builds log cabins. I mean, just anything interesting I could find. And then the rest of the class would be sing-alongs. I'd performed some songs and do some sing-alongs. And some of those songs were Woody Guthrie songs. So I was pulling that back into my repertoire, Also, a good place to end, too, is that at one point, because I knew a lot of Woody Guthrie songs, at one point in my career when my kids were young, I decided to look into Woody Guthrie with more depth, because I realized how many people he had influenced and particularly Bob Dylan. And I thought, Well, rather than just listen to Bob Dylan, I want to go back a step and see what it was he found when he was influenced by Woody Guthrie. And so I kind of took a journey to learn more about Woody Guthrie. Even though I had played some of his songs from the time I was a teenager, I just decided to dig in deeper. And the first thing I found out was that there wasn't much Woody Guthrie around. Like, his records were all out of print. You know, you'd be, if you could find a copy of a Bound for Glory, his bestselling novel, you were lucky 'cause those were out of print. But I did manage to find a copy, and I found a store up in Santa Monica that sold a lot of children's records that had the Songs to Grow On that were written by Woody and his wife for their kids. And so my kids were brought up on those songs in the cassette player in the car. And those were some of the first songs I learned. I also found a copy of a tape with Woody and Cisco Houston singing cowboy songs. So I started to incorporate some of the songs into my own set. And when I got this job with Community Ed, I developed that up further. So I made lyric sheets so I could really learn these songs, and the Woody Guthrie songs were the ones that really stuck out as the best songs to me. And so at one point, I thought, Well, I could actually put together a one-man show about Woody Guthrie, and maybe I could even get an endorsement or be sanctioned by the Woody Guthrie, Woody Guthrie's management, which he still had a manager even though he was dead--this guy, Harold Leventhal, I knew from the books that I had found--a couple of books--that he was the guy, who was kind of in charge of Woody Guthrie's estate at that point. And so I looked up his office. I found a number for his office in New York City, and I called his office, and Harold Leventhal answered the phone, And I explained to him that I was a songwriter in California and that I had learned a number of these Woody Guthrie songs and that I had been listening to the Library of Congress tapes, which were recorded by Alan Lomax. It's about four hours of Woody, similar to what we're doing here. Only Woody would tell his story and then play a song that he'd written that kind of went with it. And those tapes are in the Library of Congress, and I--that you can get them on cassette tapes. So I've been listening to those, the interviews and the songs, and I thought, Well, I could put together a real show. So I called Harold Leventhal and kind of broached the idea with him, and he completely just shut me down. He said, No, you can't do that. You can't even play any Woody Guthrie songs, he says, because, all those songs are protected, and they're being held for a production that we're doing about Woody Guthrie, and you cannot use them under any circumstances. Goodbye. Bang, you know. So I was like, Wow, you know, I was really like, taken aback. So I thought, Well, screw that, I'm gonna' play these songs anyways. So I played them in, for my classes, I didn't develop up the show. I didn't go there. But I played these songs in my classes and I honed up these Woody Guthrie songs, so they were sounding really good. Ironically--and this would be a good stop point--many years later, when I was playing at the Woody Guthrie Festivals on a regular basis, when Nora Guthrie gave me the first Woody Guthrie song to write music to, it was a song called Dance a Little Longer. And we recorded it, and I was on my way home from the Woody Guthrie Festival in Oklahoma. I don't know which year it was, but it was the year after I had, it was probably around 2000 (2003). Yeah, 'cause that's when that first record came out that had that on it. So I was on my way home, and my cell phone rings, and it's a New York City number. But I decided to answer, and I answered it, and it was Harold Leventhal calling me up. Now he doesn't know I was the guy, who called him many years earlier, but now I'm the guy who finished this Woody Guthrie song, and he really liked it, So he called me up to tell me how much he liked it and to thank me profusely for helping to carry on Woody Guthrie's legacy. So the irony of that really hit me. And, of course, I never told him about the earlier connection. But that sort of closed the endorsement, finished the endorsement from Woody Guthrie Archives and Woody Guthrie Publications and that kind of thing. So where we're leaving off is I've just worked at, with the Community Ed, and I tried to do the Woody Guthrie thing. Harold shut me down. And now I'm about to get a job at the San Diego Wild Animal Park. 02:05:50.564 --> 02:05:56.157 Okay. Thank you so much. As you have alluded to, this is session one-- 02:05:56.157 --> 02:05:57.052 Yes. 02:05:57.052 --> 02:06:01.814 --of Joel's oral history, and we'll be back together for the next interview. 02:06:01.814 --> 02:06:04.314 I look forward to it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; 30&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-086 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Counterculture -- United States Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Covina (Calif.) West Covina (Calif.) Portland (Oregon) Seattle (Wash.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anthony L. Jackson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. SC027-32 2:18:08 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Military families ; Mormon Church ; Piracy -- Indian Ocean ; Racism ; United States. Marine Corps ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Houston (Tex.) ; Indian Ocean ; Oakland (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Stuttgart (Germany) ; United States. Africa Command. Anthony L. Jackson Sean Visintainer JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.mp4 2.0:|72(14)|107(6)|150(11)|238(14)|318(10)|378(6)|429(9)|478(5)|513(6)|550(15)|599(3)|636(6)|675(8)|701(7)|744(6)|778(3)|837(7)|886(11)|920(15)|983(7)|1022(16)|1047(11)|1097(18)|1155(12)|1211(5)|1239(4)|1286(11)|1308(15)|1359(3)|1403(14)|1438(17)|1491(2)|1534(15)|1577(4)|1628(9)|1666(10)|1714(2)|1746(10)|1766(5)|1841(2)|1872(10)|1906(14)|1950(3)|1999(3)|2022(6)|2061(11)|2091(3)|2124(4)|2167(3)|2194(9)|2275(11)|2301(14)|2328(13)|2395(13)|2425(8)|2461(11)|2492(10)|2558(16)|2602(17)|2647(2)|2687(9)|2745(9)|2776(12)|2807(8)|2872(15)|2921(18)|2971(2)|3025(4)|3119(3)|3140(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8e01398f12b5d84483867231d0d018cf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Major General Anthony L. Jackson, March 7th, 2023, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 43 Childhood and formative years Jackson describes his childhood, growing up in a military family that moved around the world, as well as his schooling, meals, and football recruitment. He also describes what life is like on military bases, and how he was fortunate to grow up at the time that he did, with opportunity provided by the sacrifices people made during the civil rights movement. civil rights movement ; Germany ; Hawaii ; Houston, Texas ; military base life ; military family ; Oakland, California 0 937 Father's military experience / Growing up in Houston and Fort Hood during the civil rights era Jackson speaks to his father's military experience and the challenges his father faced as a Black enlisted soldier, as well as his father's feelings on Jackson joining the Marine Corps. Jackson recalls the part of his childhood spent in Houston and nearby Fort Hood. He describes the segregated nature of the area, and participating in a sit-in at a local drug store. Jackson also recalls his sister's refusal to move to the back of the bus, fighting in high school and being picked on because of his accent, and speaks to his idea of equality vs. equity, using a metaphor for starting life with a backpack. enlisted Black soldier experience ; General Frank E. Petersen ; Houston, Texas ; racism 0 2290 Family deployments Jackson discusses his father's and brother's deployments, including why his brother was drafted to fight in Vietnam and his brother's medical evacuation to San Francisco. Butte College ; California State University Chico ; drafts and deferments ; Korean War ; Matt Jackson ; medical evacuations ; Vietnam War ; World War II 0 2515 Support systems for deployed soldiers Jackson discusses how support systems evolved in the armed services for deployed soldiers from his father experience to his own. Jackson discusses informal and formal structures and how military spouses play a role in supporting each other. Jackson also discusses the necessity of taking care of military families and how that impacts combat ability. Army ; Key Volunteer Program ; Marine Corps ; military spouses ; Navy ; Ombudsman Program 0 2987 Jackson's dating, marriage, and enlistment Jackson recounts meeting his wife, Sue, at San Jose State University and their courtship. Jackson describes interracial dating at the time and their family's reactions, and recall his ring-buying expedition which ended with a job. Jackson speaks to his work in the insurance industry, and decision to quit that job and enlist in the Marine Corps, and later to re-enlist. courtship ; enlistment ; interracial relationships ; Mike Anderson Agency ; Paul Barriger ; re-enlistment ; Sue Jackson ; U.S.S. Mayaguez ; Vietnam War 0 4116 Qualities of a successful Marine and a successful marriage Jackson describes the value of judgement and moral courage in making one a successful Marine. He discusses the value his older enlistment age gave him, and recruit training. Jackson also describes why he and Sue have a strong marriage. courage ; judgement ; marriage 0 4424 Working as the Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command] Jackson describes his work towards the end of his career, including as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command], where Jackson and his staff - especially civilian scientist Susan Alderson - were instrumental in getting MRAPs [mine resistant, ambush protected vehicles] to forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. MARCENT ; MRAPs ; Susan Alderson 0 5040 Working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, Africa Command [AFRICOM] Jackson recalls his work as the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics for the newly created United States Africa Command, and recalls in detail piracy around the Horn of Africa, and operations resulting from Somali pirates capturing of the U.S. cargo ship Maersk Alabama in 2009. AFRICOM ; Maersk Alabama ; piracy ; Somalia 0 5520 Returning to Camp Pendleton Jackson recounts a career fork where he could have gone back to Iraq to be a chief of staff, but instead ended up as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson recounts his previous times at Camp Pendleton as a colonel and his family's decision to build a house in Fallbrook while Jackson was deployed to various places including Japan and Iraq. Jackson also recalls getting shelled while eating in a mess hall in Al Anbar Governate in Iraq. Camp Pendleton ; Fallbrook, California ; Marine Corps Installation West 0 6078 Jackson's relationship with CSUSM and work with California State Parks Jackson recalls returning to the area and getting acquainted with former university President Karen Haynes and joining the CSUSM Foundation's board. Jackson describes not desiring to work after his retirement from the military, and why he decided to go to work for California State Parks as their director. Jackson also discusses the similarity and differences between working in the military and parks, and discusses his decision to leave California State Parks. California State Parks ; CSUSM ; Jim Mickelson ; Karen Haynes 0 7203 Camp Pendleton and military bases Jackson discusses how Camp Pendleton specifically and military bases in general integrate with their surrounding communities. Jackson also discusses how federal aid and military projects have an effect on the surrounding community. Jackson recounts a negative experience with an invitation to speak at his high school alma mater where he was asked not to wear his uniform. base-community relationships ; Camp Pendleton ; Economic Recovery Act ; federal aid ; prejudice towards servicemen 0 7757 Family history Jackson shows a family history album that his wife, Sue, created, and discusses his family tree, his father's prize fighting career, his grandparents, siblings and extended family. Jackson recounts his mother's side of the family history and their ancestor Green Flake, who was an enslaved man who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Jackson speaks to the presence Green Flake has left in history. boxing ; Brigham Young ; enslaved peoples ; family history ; Green Flake ; Jackson family ; monuments ; Mormonism ; Salt Lake City 0 Moving image Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2011, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.&#13 ; &#13 ; In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago ; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -- constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. &lt ; laughter&gt ; We were, we were poor, you know, and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-- Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-- Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what &lt ; laughs&gt ; , what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-- Visintainer: Could you explain-- Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-- Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. I guess, so. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military speak. Can't help it. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-- Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly is just that much better. But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they'd have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate to the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-- Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-- Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-- Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, &lt ; laughs&gt ; kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" I had no idea when. I said, "semester break!" Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, "Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -- football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop. I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-- Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-- Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," &lt ; laughter&gt ; , "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum &amp ; Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-- captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator. You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! Just make sure you win!" Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, you know, to inspection standards. We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-- Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-- here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-- Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-- Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! Then I got ordered overseas and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to, to arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-- Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-- Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-- Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-- Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-- Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-- Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. That's significant. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. Gently so. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-- Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-- Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? &lt ; Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap&gt ; . Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-- Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard ; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is, and this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my great-great-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother: her, my mother, her ; my sister, her right there ; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-- Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-- Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-- Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Visintainer: Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-- Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-- Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all&#13 ; responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command United States. Marine Corps Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony L. Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany); Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC027 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony L. Jackson Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Martin Leyva OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-19 02:24:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection Campus oral histories CSUSM csusm Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment Parolees Prison-industrial complex San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Transitions (Program) California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions Program Martin Leyva Sean Visintainer mp4 LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.mp4 1.0:|16(8)|33(11)|51(12)|62(7)|79(8)|91(15)|111(5)|126(4)|145(12)|155(12)|178(8)|192(7)|205(5)|218(8)|235(15)|251(15)|270(10)|282(11)|295(4)|311(3)|321(3)|341(3)|350(13)|363(6)|379(14)|391(4)|402(11)|414(3)|425(9)|443(8)|461(12)|479(13)|491(3)|507(8)|525(8)|539(6)|551(17)|572(13)|585(11)|600(6)|614(11)|628(18)|647(5)|673(10)|707(13)|728(4)|749(10)|770(5)|800(9)|813(10)|822(10)|849(8)|862(12)|875(12)|907(17)|916(12)|941(13)|954(7)|972(5)|988(9)|1013(15)|1034(12)|1055(4)|1068(6)|1098(4)|1113(9)|1147(4)|1179(8)|1198(7)|1225(3)|1243(4)|1262(14)|1293(17)|1310(7)|1329(11)|1347(16)|1364(8)|1406(2)|1460(5)|1478(4)|1494(4)|1519(16)|1538(18)|1557(9)|1589(7)|1603(4)|1626(8)|1642(12)|1664(9)|1693(10)|1720(13)|1739(4)|1750(3)|1777(3)|1789(3)|1809(4)|1842(11)|1866(20)|1900(16)|1918(19)|1928(12)|1947(7)|1967(4)|1986(7)|1998(13)|2023(17)|2041(15)|2062(12)|2076(7)|2097(3)|2119(16)|2147(9)|2158(9)|2173(6)|2204(3)|2225(4)|2238(4)|2251(17)|2273(5)|2305(2)|2317(9)|2328(10)|2347(9)|2360(5)|2386(10)|2406(15)|2425(5)|2444(16)|2472(12)|2494(9)|2506(17)|2530(4)|2543(12)|2563(4)|2582(7)|2600(10)|2611(3)|2622(6)|2641(6)|2666(10)|2678(10)|2700(4)|2721(9)|2732(3)|2747(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5caf9a55a3ead1fafbf38f16091217c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Introduction of Martin Leyva (narrator) and date and place of interview (October 27th, 2022 at California State University San Marcos University Library). 0 23 Roles at Cal State San Marcos, Palomar College, and MiraCosta College Leyva discusses his roles with Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, as well as with the Transitions Programs at Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges, and his role as a Professor of Sociology. Leyva also discusses the Rising Scholars community college program, and what support from university and system administrations, as well as the nonprofit sector looks like. California State University San Marcos ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; professional development ; Project Rebound ; Rising Scholars ; Transitions Program 0 494 Typical day of work Leyva discusses what a day of work is like for him, including supporting students, and the emotional labor that comes with his work, how to build trust with formerly incarcerated students, and what success looks like in his role. academic instruction ; California State University San Marcos ; emotional labor ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; scholarship ; student success ; trust-building 0 1453 Santa Barbara City College and the Transitions Program Leyva relates how he was released from prison and had trouble with employment. At the recommendation of his niece, Leyva attended college and began forming a community with other formerly incarcerated students, which led to an informal support group. Leyva relates how that support group became a cohort model for formerly incarcerated individuals Employment ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services Office ; Santa Barbara City College ; Transitions Program 0 1764 Employment realities after prison Leyva relates issues he encountered in gaining and retaining employment after release from prison, and the barriers that formerly incarcerated people face in re-entering the workforce. Leyva recounts finding work on campus at Santa Barbara City College and recent legislation that is intended to lessen barriers for formerly incarcerated folks. Employment barriers ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services ; Santa Barbara City College ; student success 0 2930 Enabling success for formerly incarcerated students Leyva discusses "just showing up" as a way to model success and assist students in acclimating to an academic environment. Leyva also discusses peers doing work in assisting formerly incarcerated students and/or affecting change, and the characteristics that make for successful re-entry for people getting out of prison. belonging ; Frankie Guzman ; imposter syndrome ; James Binnall ; student success 0 3571 Pathways for formerly incarcerated students in academia Leyva discusses what majors and programs tend to be popular with formerly incarcerated students, what areas Leyva thinks we need more formerly incarcerated people involved in, and what professions they cannot be involved in for legal reasons. college majors ; Education ; employment barriers ; Human Services ; Justice Studies ; Nursing ; Political Science ; Social Work ; Sociology and Criminology ; STEM fields ; student success 0 3898 Employment in prison Leyva discusses the process of employment in prison ; how incarcerated individuals find employment, what that employment looks like, and what the pay is like for incarcerated people. Leyva also discusses what the prison-industrial complex and onshoring movement means for exploitation of labor in prisons. Leyva describes his experience working as a landscaper while in prison. labor exploitation ; landscaping ; legislation ; prison employment ; prison-industrial complex ; Thirteenth Ammendment ; UNICOR 0 4374 Media narratives Leyva discusses how media narratives and election cycles drive public policy and public perceptions of crime and impact non-violent offenders. Leyva also discusses the importance of being critical of our government, the systems in place, and our corporations. carceral system ; corporate criticism ; governmental criticism ; media narratives 0 4707 Childhood in Santa Barbara Leyva discusses his childhood in Santa Barbara and his hometown neighborhood, what his community looked like when he was growing up ; his family, his gathering places, corner stores, Ortega Park murals, barbecue, and childhood rolemodels. Leyva also discusses what his mother did for a living, and his family's work ethic. Manuel Unzueta ; murals ; Oak Park ; Ortega Park ; role models ; Santa Barbara ; work ethic 0 5339 First legal troubles, observational learning, and patriarchy Leyva discusses stealing mopeds and getting caught, observational learning, and substance abuse. Leyva also discusses modeling emotional intelligence and emotional management, sobriety, mindfulness, and the importance of dismantling patriarchy. Leyva tells the story of how he got caught with the stolen mopeds. Honda Spree ; moped theft ; observational learning ; patriarchy 0 5921 Further legal troubles and post-incarceration life Leyva describes his continuing legal troubles and trajectory into the carceral system, crime as a call for help, and how patriarchy doesn't teach skills to be emotionally vulnerable and to be supportive. Leyva also recalls severing a relationship upon coming back to his community, and what defying this meant. Leyva relates this experience to the struggles incarcerated people face in doing the work to heal. Leyva also discusses what home is to him, and how it changes during the healing process post-incarceration. healing ; Juvenile Detention ; patriarchy ; post-incarceration ; robbery ; substance abuse 0 6839 Recidivism, books and education in prison, and mentors in prison Leyva discusses how he won't say he will never be back in prison. He also recalls education in prison, and prison mentors that guided his reading and helped him start the healing process. Leyva also discusses prison subcultures and what literature is dangerous to have in prison. banned books ; critical pedogogy ; mentorship ; My Life Is a Sun Dance ; Pedagogy of the Oppressed ; prison subculture ; recidivism ; The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom 0 7746 Graduate school Leyva discusses coming to North San Diego County for graduate school at California State University San Marcos and the justice studies program in the Sociology Department. Leyva also discusses how our systems and environment drive the choices we make. Antioch University ; California State University San Marcos ; Chris Bickel ; Justice Studies ; rational choice ; Xuan Santos 0 7926 Prison abolition Leyva discusses his feelings on prison abolition, dismantling patriarchy, and feminist thought theory. Leyva describes his wishes for alternatives to incarceration and what a world without patriarchy looks like. feminism ; patriarchy ; prison abolition 0 8369 Project Rebound in the future Leyva discusses how he'd like to see Project Rebound grow, how formerly incarcerated people could have opportunity through it, and how he would like to see CSUSM's Project Rebound become a community hub and place to grow, student or not. community ; Project Rebound 0 8556 Closing thoughts Leyva offers his closing thoughts on the conversation, what his work means to him, and paying homage to his mentors through his work. global incarceration ; paying it back 0 Oral History Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community.&#13 ; &#13 ; Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development-- someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. &lt ; Affirmative&gt ; [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you're property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or-- and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, "Wow, I can actually do this." And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-- Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work-- it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. &lt ; Laugh&gt ; There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're--[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very &lt ; laugh&gt ; now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also-- I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and-- Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So-- Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, "Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to." This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I'm] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, "You might not trust me now, but eventually you will." And it gets to that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, "Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource." And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, "Every time I call you answer." I'm like, "Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you." Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, "I've never seen a professor like you." And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, 'cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, "Man, the work just began for you." Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, "I got an A on this test, thank you!" And I'm like, "Don't thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?" And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost-- because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, "Why don't you go to school?" And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was-- you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, "Hey, you should come up and check out school." Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, "Hey, we need a little spot to meet." And she's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group." And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, "You can't have that job." I'm like, "It's a job though, right?" And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, "You can't leave the county." Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job-- Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, "Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're--" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, "You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months," or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, "We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on." And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, "Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job." Right. FAFSA's not money. And I was like, It's kind of money &lt ; laughs&gt ; , right? But he's like, "No, you need a job." And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, "I need a job." And she's just like, "Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus." And I was like, "What's that?" So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, "How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!" But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like &lt ; surprised gesture&gt ; "Hmm." You know, next thing I know I'm working in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, "Have you been convicted of a felony?" You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, "You know what?" 'Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, "If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume." Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, "Yeah, we wanna hire 'em." And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We'd support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that &lt ; airquote gesture&gt ; look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what's this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, "Can I see your ID?" And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, "Yes, you can see my ID." Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, "Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?" Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, "Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that." Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, "You think you can get a program started?" And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, "What do you think a program would look like?" I said, "We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks." I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, "You think you can get a cohort going?" And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, "Sure. What is it?" You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, "Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff." And I was, I was just like, "Yes." Because it was a job. It was being around the people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, "Oh, I want to learn this." It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum ; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then-- and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. 'Cause that was interesting because they said, "You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?" And I said, "Yes." The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, "Just make a flyer." And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said "Transitions Program." Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, "Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school." Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, "Oh, yeah, I'll check it out." And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, "Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school." I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, "Hey, you should try home to school." And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, "Yeah, I'll try it out." And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, "What do I do if a student asked about a job?" And they're like, "Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study." So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, "Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here." They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, "Look, if you got learning disabilities," and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, "Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up." And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. "I can't do it." And it's just like, "Yes you can. Yes you can." And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn't. "I don't believe in myself, I can't do it." And it's like, "Yes, you can. Yes you can." It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It's a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, "God, I have to do that." Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, "You can't do that program," or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, "Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system." It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that ; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they're motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who're serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, "Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience." Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, "I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else." Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to &lt ; unintelligible&gt ; . And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, "Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do." And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, "This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is--" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master's of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology 'cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, "Let's go to Washington." You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, "Where's my politicians at though?" You know what I mean? Where's my &lt ; laughs&gt ; ? Where's my--'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. 'Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, "Let us in here" because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools ; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers-- The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they're caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, "Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. 'Cause they do, they run your resume. "What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?" And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, "Hey Martin should do this job," right? So they hired me right away and it was-- The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There're so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't-- They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working 'cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you're completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it 'cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, "Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour," because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, "We need to get crime under control!" I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-- Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, "Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?" It's like, no, that was an incident. Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with "murderers this, murderers that," and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not-- Yeah, I'm so critical about media &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: 'Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? &lt ; laughs&gt ; One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the-- places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like--Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I'm thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, &lt ; laughs&gt ; put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the "bad guys." I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, "Are you doing your homework?" And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? "My little king." And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, "Don't get into trouble." You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, "Good job." You know what I mean? &lt ; laughter&gt ; So it's like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, "Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it." You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education 'cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh-- good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; . I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, "No, you gotta go to work." I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, "Why are you stealing mopeds?" Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn't to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, "I gotta go!" And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, "I'm gonna try that." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer &lt ; laughs&gt ; to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, "Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?" I'm like, "I took it." He's like, "Oh, let me take it." And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn't-- You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, "I know how to do that," because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, "Pretend you're the outsider looking in." Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy 'cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well-- I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. 'Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull 'em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, "Well, here I am." Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast 'cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, "I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it." It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, "Hey, I need some money." I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, "I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here." And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, "I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how," because that's a sign of weakness to say like, "I feel emotional." And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, "I just, I'd rather be here than out there." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone-- who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, "Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff." Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, "Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some--Let's go partying!" For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. "You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet," is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. 'Cause he looked at me and he is like, "Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird." You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old--the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me 'cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. 'Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're-- it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. 'Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. 'Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? &lt ; Laughter&gt ; But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don't even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, "When you get to prison," 'cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, "When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use." He always said, "Use that as a moment of clarity." And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, "I don't want this." And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, "You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here." And I got offended. I was like, "What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, "I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?" And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, "You're full of shit old man." Right. But he wasn't. He wasn't. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, "Oh, you're part of a prison gang." I was like, "I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe." And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like-- mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, "What do you think about this book?" And I-- we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines ; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors 'cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. 'Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don't remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, "What are you reading?" And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, "Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read." You know, &lt ; Visintainer laughs&gt ; like he started critically thinking like, "It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?" And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, "You should read this book." And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, "Here, you should read this." He starts telling me about the book. "Just to help you understand the place you're in." I took the book and I said, "Cool, thanks." Didn't pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, "What'd you think of that book?" And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, "That's pretty good." And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn't about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed," even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, "Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you." And I never understood that, "Well, who's gonna take away this book?" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book &lt ; laughs&gt ; . But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. 'Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said-- he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, "Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it." And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, "Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you." I'm like, "Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people." Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That's a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious-- let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I'm the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, "I wanna be a MFT or social worker." And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, "You're nothing but an alcoholic." You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? "Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble." I said, "Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?" Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Sorry. Visintainer: No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender's super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. &lt ; shrugs&gt ; It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -- community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we-- I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more-- sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, &lt ; laughs&gt ; you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that's a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. &lt ; laughs&gt ; We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let's come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, "Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do." And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause &lt ; laughs&gt ; yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn't even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. 'Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. I'm gonna go ahead and turn off the interview. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/22735 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions program Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College. Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Martin Leyva Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Schaffman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. SC027-084 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Karen Schaffman Jennifer Fabbi moving image SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Experience with dance as a child and adolescent Schaffman reflects on being a lifelong dancer starting with her initial experience with dance as a child and her mother’s role in exposing her to dance. lifelong dancer ; mother ; Connecticut Ballet ; ballet ; jazz ; Hartford Conservatory 0 382 Formal education Schaffman details her formal undergraduate and graduate education in dance including a degree at the European Dance Development Center in Holland and a PhD in Dance History and Theory at University of California, Riverside. University of Massachusetts ; women's studies ; feminism ; gap year ; San Francisco ; improvisation ; Holland ; Germany ; California ; University of California, Riverside ; Feldenkrais Method ; Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais 0 874 Foundational theory and practice for Schaffman’s work Schaffman describes theories and practices that underpin her work including a somatic approach to dance, perceptual improvisation, dance dialects, and contact improvisation. somatics ; perceptual improvisation ; dance dialects ; contact improvisation ; performance and cultural theory 0 1802 Service to the community and profession Schaffman discusses her teaching, scholarship, and service and how she was able to differentiate her service from teaching and scholarship during the retention, tenure, and promotion process. teaching ; scholarship ; creative activity ; service ; David Avalos ; Susan Foster ; Lower Left ; Bonnie Biggs ; Mtfti Imara ; California Center for the Arts ; Andrea Liss ; Kristine Diekman ; Meryl Goldberg ; Center ARTES ; Marilyn Huerta ; Arts and Lectures ; curriculum 0 2233 International work Schaffman speaks to her work in and travels to different countries and the influence this has had on her life and career. global citizen ; intercultural exchange ; Europe ; Mexico ; Pachuca ; Day of the Dead ; Holland 0 2238 Plans in retirement Schaffman shares her plans for retirement including slowing down, participating in a training institute in Vienna, and coming back to teaching at CSUSM as part of the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Donna Ray ; Feldenkrais ; training institute ; Vienna ; Pilates 0 2456 Schaffman’s journey to CSUSM and evolution of the campus and curriculum Schaffman reflects on the evolution of CSUSM, especially regarding the growth of the dance curriculum and program, faculty, and guest artists. curriculum ; University Curriculum Committee ; dance minor ; Choreographies of Resistance ; Michael McDuffie ; Ranjeeta Basu ; Cheri Hill ; breadth ; active learning ; social justice ; diversity ; Arts and Lectures ; Dancing through Prison Walls ; Visual and Performing Arts ; space ; theater ; Anya Cloud 0 4019 Working during the Covid pandemic Schaffman talks about her work during the Covid pandemic and the rise of Black Lives Matter and murder of George Floyd. (keywords: pandemic, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, online performances, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Mtfti Imara, T. Lang, Melicia Taylor, Black artists, Zoom, Skyla Miles, Minnie Atkins, sabbatical, Think Gravity Dance Tank, symposium, Anya Cloud, Ishmael Houston-Jones, contact improvisation, Contact Dance International Film Festival, Makisig Akin) pandemic ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; online performances ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; Mtfti Imara ; T. Lang ; Melicia Taylor ; Black artists ; Zoom ; Skyla Miles ; Minnie Atkins ; sabbatical ; Think Gravity Dance Tank ; symposium ; Anya Cloud ; Ishmael Houston-Jones ; contact improvisation ; Contact Dance International Film Festival ; Makisig Akin 0 4486 Schaffman’s most impactful work Schaffman reflects on what she considers to be her most impactful work. She believes the creation of the Dance program at CSUSM is the most important accomplishment of her career. Debra Hay ; Lower Left ; dance program ; Summer Arts ; Think Gravity 0 5169 Additional projects and collaborations Schaffman adds a few more collaborative projects that she wants to give her colleagues and the University credit for. United and Severed ; Kristine Diekman ; traumatic injury ; PTSD ; palliative care ; Mindfulness Center ; Elizabeth Hospice Center 0 Oral history Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:29.614 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Dr. Karen Schaffman for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is June 5th, and it is 2:10 p.m. This interview is taking place at Karen's office on the CSU San Marcos campus, where we are guests on traditional unceded Luiseño/Payómkawichum land. Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:29.614 --> 00:00:31.545 Thank you. 00:00:31.545 --> 00:00:41.375 So to start off, can you tell me about your experience with dance as a child and adolescent and where you got your passion for dance? 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:47.495 Great, thank you. And first, I'd like to begin by also thanking you so much for the opportunity to share my story, and it's really truly an honor in this moment of my life to have this interview. 00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.638 Absolutely. 00:00:49.638 --> 00:00:54.228 Thank you so much. 00:00:54.228 --> 00:00:56.064 You're welcome. 00:00:56.064 --> 00:01:30.356 My childhood story began with dance. So I've been dancing--I'm a lifelong dancer. And I began dancing as a kid. And very young. My mom, there was, we lived on the end of a street, and there was a summer creative dance program. I must have been two or three. I don't have the exact date from my mom. And that's where I fell in love with dance. I have some little picture somewhere stored away with me like in some kind of end of something performance. But it was on the playground, and it was outdoors,and that's where my dance career began. Dance for me--should I just ramble? Is that good? 00:01:30.356 --> 00:01:34.752 Yeah. 00:01:34.752 --> 00:05:45.834 Dance for me was always a sense of a place for me to belong and I'll say survive. I was very supported to go to dance through my whole childhood, but we were a middle class family, and so I relied on scholarships, I usually got them. I was seriously into dance. So I danced until I was probably in seventh grade, No, maybe sixth grade, like twice a week. And then I got into a dance company, and I had a child's part in the Connecticut Ballet, regional Ballet Company. So very early on was I in a very kind of intergenerational environment, and you'll hear through this interview that that's really important to my work and maturing as a still as a performing artist. So it was really, uh, that was like a turning point for me to be in that company. But it was also a time in my life where I had been studying ballet where--my body started to change and I knew that, and then peer pressure and things like high school and things like that. So I changed to modern dance and jazz. So at the time, jazz dance was really predominant. So that's my, just my, like, early days. But I think I'm really not getting to the heart of it with my mom, because my mom really shuttled me back and forth. She was a nurse and, uh, full time, so I had a lot of chores at home to do and things like that. But I always knew that after the chores, my mother was coming home from work and basically going back to the same neighborhood. And so, yeah, it was a really important time for me. My brothers were very into sports and at the time we didn't have Title IX, and I was not encouraged to do sports. I think I probably would've been a good athlete, actually, but I wasn't really invited or included. So dance was really a natural place for me to be physical. But I loved going to dance class. I loved--in the ballet--I was in a ballet conservatory. It was called the Hartford Conservatory. Again, I was one of the young ones there. And there was a live pianist. His name was Julius. And I just remember just loving going there. And I had two older brothers, and it was really, it wasn't a great home environment. My brothers were pretty rough on me to put it lightly. So going to dance was always a place for me to just go and be. And I had really, really good training. I have to be--I'm so grateful that I landed in those places because my teachers were very supportive, but they were also slow with me. They were like--I was called Little K--Little K, we're not putting you on point shoes yet because your ankles aren't strong enough. So I actually had really, really, really good training. So I'm very--I'm very, very grateful for that. My mom, later in life, showed me a letter that they were encouraging me to go to a performing arts high school, and my mother didn't want me to go. And it was after I got my PhD and a career in dance that she said, You know, I need to--it was like she needed to make amends. So she showed me the letter from the Hartford Conservatory encouraging my mother to put me in a professional program, but she didn't. So, but that's interesting. So I don't know where my career would've went at that time. But I stayed in. So, my time with dance was--but I was very, very shy, I have to say. So I grew into not being shy as I got older, but as a kid I was a very shy, and so people asked me to dance in front of them. I'd always be like, no, I--it's like I didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who would be like, get up on the table or get up in front of grandma and grandpa and show them what you do. So I was very, very shy as a kid. So dance was a place where I-- and performance was a place for me to go. Yeah. I could go on and on about that, but. 00:05:45.834 --> 00:06:22.134 Well, maybe it'll come up in some questions. Okay. So you have substantial formal education. You earned a BA in Dance and Literature at UMass Amherst, and an equivalent degree in experimental dance at the European Dance Development Center in the Netherlands, and also your PhD in Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. And please fill in anything that I missed. How did your formal education impact who you are as a professional? 00:06:22.134 --> 00:14:14.595 So I only applied to three schools for undergraduate, and it was not a given, but pretty much where I grew up in a very middle class family that I would go to college. I didn't get into Cornell. That was my first choice. I didn't know how I was gonna afford that anyway. And then University of Connecticut was my backup, but they didn't have a dance program, so I didn't really want to go there, but my parents encouraged me. And at the time, there was this five-hour radius of driving, like, it was very strict where we were gonna apply back then. And I was on my own, actually, my grandmother was very ill, and my grandparents had moved from Brooklyn to be next to my mom. So I got into a dance major program at University of Massachusetts, and it's a very good program. They had something called the Five College Dance Program, which is part of a consortium with Smith College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke, and Amherst. So I got to pay, it was still outta state, Massachusetts, but got to take advantage of the five college dance program. But even finishing my first year, I was like, something's wrong here. I didn't really like the dance program. It was very competitive. And even though I didn't have any issues with what they thought would maybe be too much weight in the wrong places or anything, they were very critical of other dancers. And I knew right at that age that I wasn't really jiving with that program. Though I was even teaching my first year 'cause I was very advanced. So they gave me the work study teaching, like for the university. So I kind of gave up that opportunity, and I dropped out of the dance program, and I did what was called a bachelor's degree with an independent concentration. So I did dance and literature. So I always continued dancing, but I took all of my dance classes in the five college area. So I kind of got this semi Ivy League or alternative school 'cause Hampshire is a very alternative education. And then I took other classes at UMass, but UMass just opened my eyes up to many things. I did musical theater there and, but my dance and literature was really, really important because I did a lot of, what we called then, well, was--it was UMass had one of the first women's studies programs. So I did a lot of women's literature and I did, I learned about feminism, I was like, this was like my awakening. Yeah. I took a lot of what we call then third-world women's writing and literature courses. So I'm not from the third world, but we don't even use that phrasing anymore. But UMass was in the forefront of politics in the body at the time. So, it's interesting how that became, came back and around. So I had a great education there. I did take what we call now a gap year at the time 'cause I needed to get out into the world. And then I went, I lived in San Francisco for a while and then I knew I wanted to live overseas or go overseas, but I didn't wanna be a tourist. So I got in--there was no internet or anything then. So I was studying in San Francisco with Joe Good in a summer workshop. And this woman who's now well known in New York, Sarah (now I show my absent mind). Sarah Mickelson said, you should go here. She was British. and so there was a school in Holland, and they take two guests a year, and they accepted me with like my CV and a cover letter and a letter of recommendation. And I had no money. My parents were not supporting me at all in this phase of my life. I was waitressing in San Francisco and doing dictation. I worked on the first little Mac box. And I got a loan--I think I'll share this--from the Hebrew Free Loan Association. They gave me $2,000 up front, but I had to pay, start paying back $50 a month. And off I went to Europe, and I paid my tuition. And so I had like, I don't know, I had only like $500 left in my pocket, and I went to the school in Holland. And that basically just changed my life. So it was very alternative. And it was very much based in improvisation, but many of the teachers were coming from either England or the United States, from New York. So it was kind of the New York, the downtown scene, all of the people who were working with somatics in the body. So really doing deep research in terms of inner sensation and anatomical release it was called. So it was a very particular kind of dancing. And I was just like, I would just, I was just mind blown. I would stand there in the studio and somebody would do a performance where they would just take ten minutes to raise their arms. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life. I was like, okay, what is this? And then the school split. They opened a new school in the town called Arnhem, and I went to Arnhem, and I spent two years there. And I had an amazing experience there with many amazing artists that I'm still, some of them I'm still in touch with. And I've curated, actually, here at the school and in summer arts. And so I went to there, changed my life. And then I got a job teaching in Germany before Germany had master's degrees in dance. And I worked in a conservatory environment there in a clown and dance school, So I taught at a clown and dance school for three years. And that was a great experience. But at the time I was involved with someone. I had to make a decision. So I decided to move to California. And, I was, What am I gonna' do here? And that's a longer story, but there was a brand-new program that I was thinking about getting a master's, but because I became so open to this other way of dancing, there was really no master's programs at the time that I was interested in, except maybe in New York. And I was like, Well, I live in California now. But there was a brand-new program at UC Riverside. It was the third year, and it was one of the very, among the very first top three universities that gave a PhD in dance. And so when I saw the poster in the back of one of these magazines called Contact Quarterly is how I found out about it, I was like, Oh, wow. So I went and I sat in on a few seminars and I was like, I wanna go there. So I applied. And so then I went to UC, Riverside. And it's really a groundbreaking program in terms of dance studies, the field of dance studies, which is different than just getting a degree in dance. Yeah. Dance studies is really about the political, social, and cultural impact and of the body and dance in the world. So that's what I did. And then I have one more education that I did that's very extensive called the Feldenkrais Method. So thank you to this university who partially funded that education. Yes. It's a four-year program, and it's based on the somatic educational method. And it's based on research of someone named Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, and he was part of the human development generation. Yeah. He was also born the same year as my grandfather in the Ukraine, which was interesting. But he had a knee injury. He was one of the first white people, men, white men, to learn judo. And he learned judo, and he brought a lot of Eastern philosophy into this body modality. So it's not a dance training, it's really about finding ease in your own movement. So I still do that now. I bring that into all I do. And so I have, those are my key big degrees. 00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:34.754 So following up on that your focus for your career for the last several decades has been on somatics, perceptual improvisation, contact improvisation, and performance and cultural theory. Can you tell me a little bit more about these areas of focus? 00:14:34.754 --> 00:18:27.000 Yes. So you had somatic, perceptual improvisation, cultural theory, and contact improvisation? Yeah. So a somatic approach to dance, or the body, has to do with more about feeling than how it looks. It's really about inner sensation and really getting in touch with oneself on a very cellular level, if I can speak that way. It's more about embodied and lived experience and of course, that has cultural and impact culturally and through people's cultural history and ancestry. But it--and it really includes this very sensorial based way of dancing and through the world. So it's not about how it looks like, for example, like ballet where you have to look a certain way or something, but really about an inner sensorial world that brings forward the dance or the healing or whatever. So it's, it's an ancient way of being with oneself before we had technologies and things like that. So that's the somatic piece. Is that clear kind of? It is? And then perceptual improvisation really has to do with, again, responding to the conditions. So it's a little bit more related to the visual art world. And one of my areas that I researched, well, probably since I'm a kid, but is visual art. And I also studied--I took Harvard summer school one summer way, way back when, and I did video when it was a three-quarter inch and you sit down (unintelligible). So I did some--I've studied some videos. So I'm, it's really about--how do I explain perception improvisation on an interview like this? Let's see. Something about how do we, how do we perceive the world? So it's, it really does relate a lot to visual arts in terms of perspective and visual field and responding, but could be your auditory field as well. So it's related to somatics in that way. It also is really, really related to Eastern thought, which is about inner perception and meditation and things like that. So I've cultivated a more contemplative way of approaching dance as well. Yeah. It comes from, I wouldn't say I am a Buddhist or anything like that, but I've studied Eastern philosophy. I've done a little bit of martial arts, just a little bit. So I've kind of come at it with that. And then cultural theory is dance and cultural studies. Dance studies is really a blend of dance and the field of cultural studies. So we're really looking about diversity in dance, and we're considering not just a European perspective of dance, which becomes very stereotypical. And so it's changed so much then. But it's really the dance studies field really emerged out of celebrating and analyzing, honoring the histories and practices of diverse cultures across the world. I mean, there's so many dance dialects that around the world. So dance studies really opened my eyes up to how big the world of dance is and how much of an impact it has politically and socially on our identity and things like that. So everything we learn about dance can be applied to (unintelligible). Dance studies can be applied to any field, really, in my opinion, because it has so much to do with the politics of the body. Yeah. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 That's really interesting. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:35.444 Yeah. Yeah. And I bring that here to Cal State. 00:18:35.444 --> 00:18:43.535 So how have your areas of focus benefited your students? Many students over the years? 00:18:43.535 --> 00:23:12.493 Well, and I did talk about contact, so I'll bring that back 'cause that's what my area of research was about. I think I should say something about contact now. Is that okay? So my PhD was based on contact improvisation, which is, brings together all of those other practices--somatics, perceptual improvisation, dance technique, and then cultural studies. So I was looking at something that emerged from the fifties and sixties, which was a huge art movement in New York and really influenced a lot of people. And it was based on gravity and momentum and touch. So contact improvisation. My dissertation was really also a lot about touch and how contact improvisation, which is a touch-based dance form. It's like what happens when two bodies move together? And with gravity and momentum? Now we do this, people do this, not me, in tango, in salsa, and all sorts of dance traditions around the world. But contact has a particular aesthetic. And so it might look like something, but it's so much based in sensorial awareness. So this was--has been--a big part of my life is contact improvisation. And so--but contact improvisation sometimes universalizes this idea of what the body is. So my dissertation also took that apart and down a bit that said, No, this is very particular as a particular way of moving. It's not universal. Not everybody does it, you know, things like that. So anyway, it's a longer discussion, but I bring all of that into San Marcos when I--CSUSM--when I came here there was no program. And so it was clear to me that I was starting in a very challenging place but also really exciting place. One of the reasons I took the job here--I got an offer at a school that was already established as well. Because dance, dance for here, the byline here is that dance is for everybody and every body. And that this would be an inclusive environment and that this would be an environment that welcomes all students. So it would not be conservatory driven or even wanting to go in that direction. Even though we would be working on our technique, on our awareness--we would use words like awareness rather than virtuosity. You know, virtuosity is great, but would be more about awareness. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I think I was highly successful at that. And that is actually happening. So I think that's the biggest thing. But the students always are like, it's really different here. When people come to visit or high schools come always like, oh, it's really different here because it's really about community and there's a lot of support. We don't just dance. We talk about where we're at. We take a weather report. What's going on? One word, you know, everybody share a word. How do you feel today? We talk about access needs. We don't make assumptions in the class that everybody's gonna do everything. So there's a lot of that. So it's really with what my friend, Anya Cloud, collaborator, brought the phras--she was a lecturer here for nine years--"Dancing with the body you have." So yeah, no assumptions. No assumptions. Yeah. And also adaptability. access needs, cultural backgrounds, what's going on in the world. We don't ignore, we don't go, you may get a great escape in a dance class, but dance studies is not about this dream. that dance helps me escape the world. It's basically the opposite. It's really about grounding in the reality and what am I dealing with and what are the conditions right here and now? So I've cultivated those kinds of values here. And then the other big thing is because I went to Riverside, early on I brought in that students need to relate whatever we're learning in the class. almost every, and almost--not all classes, but many classes are like--how do you relate this to your major or something you care about in the world? Because dance is always in dialogue. We're always in relationship to the world. 00:23:12.493 --> 00:23:14.733 That's really, it sounds very unique. 00:23:14.733 --> 00:23:28.015 Yes, it is. (laughter) It's a unique program that that emerged. And, um, yeah, see where it goes, too, so I'm hopeful. 00:23:28.015 --> 00:23:35.375 So what has scholarship and creative activity looked like in your career as a professor of dance? 00:23:35.375 --> 00:24:20.000 Um, in my career? Or just, what was, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. I was looking at my note up before that. I just said at the end, I wrote myself a little note about my area of focus. "It's fun and entertaining, but it's also much more than that." I talk to students. First of all, it's more than just the steps. We're not gonna just learn phrases in here and look in the mirror. I wanna add that students freak out 'cause in many classes we're like, let's close the curtains. Like, we don't always have to--and that's the somatic aspect, okay, is can you feel this movement? Why are you staring at yourself in the mirror? The mirrors can be very helpful, but, so I just wanted to sort of add that. 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.743 So the, the question, the question was, as a professor of dance, what does scholarship and creative activity look like to you? 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:36.664 Oh. 00:24:36.664 --> 00:24:47.233 And, and one, so in your CV, you also give example, a lot of examples of curated performance processes.And so are those things related? 00:24:47.233 --> 00:29:24.000 They are, for me, but in terms of teaching, I think it relates again to students who find--for our students here--is to find the connection of what dance does for the world and how it is universal. And if it's not, it's because it's being policed, right? By a government that won't allow dance. And like, where are we going now? So the scholarship in dance is about the awareness of what the body can do, like in music or visual art. You know, like we have art history, but we only have dance historians that take it really seriously. And there's tons of books now about dance. But in terms of curation, that's like a separate thing. Yeah. So my own scholarship has been that I've done a lot around--writing about contact improvisation and presenting on that. But I often combine my creative projects with political and historical research. So, for example, a project that was before--that I didn't curate, that I was invited on was like a European project based on a fictional choreographer named Veronika Blumstein. So I ended up spending like two years on that. And then she comes back every now and then, came back during COVID. I was like, okay. Somebody invited me 'cause they were interested in my work with Veronica. And so these Polish and German artists and one person from Slovenia came together in a research project. And they didn't know what to do. And for some reason, at the time, the zeitgeist at the time was a really, like a lot around healing in terms of World War II and the European Holocaust and genocide there. And so, and then the Polish people were so impacted by the war in another way. So this opened up a huge pot of research for me by looking into Veronika Blumstein. And I lived in Europe, but I had never gone into some of my own personal roots. And so I did a lot of ancestral work at the time. And then through that project many things came up because they wrote a fictional--they wrote about a fictional character who happened to be a Jewish woman who escaped and went to New York and studied with all these people that were like part of my own dance lineage. So it became a lineage project. So in that way, I was like weaving together all of these different things. Now, like curation is kind of, I'm, it happens globally, but I know it because I've spent so much time in Europe, like this kind of careful 'cause curation--because they have different funding sources. So in the US, our, the field of dance curation has grown so much and it's--there's so many amazing people doing great projects. But my work in curation, well, I just recently did this Think Gravity Project, which we'll talk about. But I did a big project called the Live Legacy Project. And so I was invited by a former classmate of mine from the school I went to in Holland Center for New Dance Development, which became European Dance Development Center. And we did a whole cultural history on how dance migrated from US and Ukraine, uh, Ukraine--US and the UK through the Dutch school into Germany. So she was living in Germany and the German government gave a huge sum of money to this curation. So we had a symposium that resulted in a film, but we brought together many dance elders and then the younger generation. So it was a big intergenerational project. So we had workshops. So we did everything at the symposium. It wasn't a talking symposium. We had the workshops, intensives alongside the talks, alongside the films. But everybody went to everything. So it wasn't like, I will choose at a conference, it would be like a symposium for a hundred people. And then they came to everything. It was very, very well documented. They all experienced everything together. Yeah. So it's like educational and creative all at once and people got to share their work. Okay. So in that way, like the curation is a way to bring about a living archive. So I'm interested in curation that's very much alive. Does that make sense? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.222 It does. 00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:35.275 Okay. There's a lot of topics we're we're hitting now, so I hope they're making sense. 00:29:35.275 --> 00:29:47.000 They are. So, you talk, have talked a lot about, you know, previous to this interview about your involvement with Arts and Lectures on campus. 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.809 Yes. 00:29:48.809 --> 00:30:02.505 And so, like a more broad question is what does campus and community service look like in your career over the years? But I know that Arts and Lectures, you know, we talked about as being a substantial-- 00:30:02.505 --> 00:33:42.000 Yes. Well, before I get into Arts and Lectures, what's interesting is I'm flashing now to David Avalos, who was a mentor for me. And, he really helped me when I arrived here, especially with my file, because I, like my service and my scholarship and my teaching all intertwined. And the committees at first didn't really get that. So he had me write this intro and it was really helpful. And so I also share that forward with other people I'm on committees with because it's known now. But even twenty years ago when I was a PhD student, we didn't do a practical PhD. Now there's many practicing dance PhDs. And at the time, one of the most famous godmothers of dance studies, my mentor, Susan Foster, said, Karen, you need to put dancing aside for a while. Get reading, get writing. And I didn't really do that at the time. I still was, I had a very active performing career, and I was curating with a group called Lower Left in San Diego. So it's just like doing way too much. But that's what I did for a large, most of my life. So it's that intertwining of these things that I think is really important. That my service here was always intertwined with my own work in the classroom. Because also, I was performing with students or creating performances with students both at the, in the early years. And it was like, that was my service. I didn't get course release or it wasn't counted as a class, even though I was teaching a class or a project that added another ten hours a week for six to eight weeks. So that's what we do, though. We dance. You gotta make the work. It doesn't fit into a four hour a week class. So my service really got intertwined entwined with dancing. But then I got involved right away because I had been curating in Europe. I had been cur--you know, when I was teaching at the clown school was my first curating. And then I, when I arrived here, I got involved with Bonnie Biggs from the Library, who was running Arts and Lectures, and she invited Mtfiti Imara, Dr. Imara, to do a performance. So that was another big project. He did a--he created a song that was called Power to the People. And I had a group of dancers. It was all extracurricular in our first year. We did a big performance at Center for the Arts in Escondido. It was amazing. And then Bonnie--oh, and then another curatorial thing was happening was Dr. Andrea Liss, who I collaborated with a lot, and Dr. Kristine Diekman. I mean, excuse me. Not Dr. Professor. (Kristine. I love you. You know, it's just as important. what you've done.) Okay. So they were doing a women's rights symposium. So in my second year or my first year--I can't remember, it's in the flyer (points to flyer). It was a really wonderful symposium. So I made a student piece for that, intergenerational. I was on a panel and then I also performed, they invited me. I did this piece in the late nineties called Monster Girl. And it was a very pop piece, feminist piece. And I wore, like, you know, I was standing on a Tide box and doing my soapbox and dancing to Mission Impossible. And it was just like wild. Blue wig-- 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000 I saw the box up there-- 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.882 Oh yeah. Blue wig. Oh-- 00:33:44.882 --> 00:33:45.617 --that says Monster Girl. 00:33:45.617 --> 00:36:43.000 Oh yeah. It has the handcuffs in it, too. I mean, it was just like this kind of rant about women's rights. And so they knew I did the piece. Kristine had actually seen it at Sushi Performance and Visual Arts in '98. So they invited me to perform that. So I kind of came off and running, like performing, early on a lot. I performed a lot less as the years grew on, and I became more administratively driven. So yeah, so that was a curatorial piece. And then Meryl Goldberg picked up Arts and Lectures, and I was on the committee when she was interim. And then she got started in Center ARTES, so I came on and that was a big part of my service for the University. I worked with Marilyn Huerta for many years and for about--I think I was running it for five years. I used to call myself the unofficial Director 'cause they didn't give me that position. That's what--didn't really didn't compensate me. It was just my service, but I can tell you it was more than nine hours a week. And we did between thirty-nine and forty-two events a year for many years. And even the language that's on the website, I'm like, maybe you should update it. No offense (no shade there, Gina, or the committee). Hey, if it's still working, I'm honored. You know, Meryl also came up with some of those, uh, invoke, inspire. So, but I really brought so many performances to this campus. I mean, Dance has always done at least two a year, but I could tell you this year, we got an IRA grant this school year. We did, I don't know, but there must have been--but I have other faculty working with me. So, but Dance Studies probably hosted at least twelve major public events open to the public. So a lot. So it's big. And then my other service to the campus was, I mean, I created the program. I wrote twenty-eight courses. Of course, they're not all offered. There wasn't any, there was a, few courses on the books, and I did keep one called Global Modern Dance, which I think is very sophisticated. Don Funes wrote that when he founded the program. And, I mean, I guess you probably have knew, you already know the history of this program. It started off as an interdisciplinary program, and then there was the desire to branch out into our own disciplines. But there's always been a desire to work cross-disciplinary and interdisciplinary. and Dance always does. We work with theater, we've worked with visual art, we've worked with literature and writing, we've worked with women's studies, we've worked with theater. And so I've done many projects with all of the faculty. I was actually hired as a collaborator that wasn't going--the job description was to be a collaborator. Even though it was for somebody in dance, was to be a collaborator. So I did that. I definitely did that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Yeah, you did. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.264 Yeah. Am I talking too fast, also? 00:36:48.264 --> 00:36:50.815 I think that you are doing just fine. 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.025 Okay, great. Okay. It's a lot. 00:36:55.025 --> 00:37:13.000 Okay. So you've done a substantial amount of international work, and you talked about your desire to live overseas and not be a tourist. And--but how has that work outside of the United States contributed to your development in the field? And you've already kind of touched on this. But if there's anything else you'd like to say. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:40:30.235 Well, to lift up our campus with the, especially with what's going on right now in the world i--the goal is for us to be global citizens. Isn't that part of our mission still? And so learning about other cultures and living elsewhere gives one that lived experience of intercultural exchange, opens your world perspective. It demands one to be flexible and adaptable. I'm open to new ideas. So it's really enriched my life a lot. And it's given me a lot of empathy, compassion, inspiration, all of those things for ways of being in the world. And, I mean, I've primarily worked in Europe, but I've also--I've been to Mexico a few times on some big projects. And those were really, really wonderful experiences. And because our campus is in, you know, our demographic is so Latinx, that it's really important for me to have firsthand experiences there. So I've traveled personally there, but I've also done artistic project projects there. And it's been an incredible experience. Most recently, I went to Pachuca with Kristine Diekman. And we did an incredible project with sound and movement and electronic art. It was really amazing. So that was so great. And it was based on Day of the Dead. And even though I'm not from that culture, people are super open, and I learned so much at the time. And in fact, my mom had just passed, and so they were like--there were ofrendas everywhere. It was very meaningful for me. I got to learn a lot. So it's like just stepping out of one's, where one's from, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think it's super important and I--really sad to hear that programs like that are in jeopardy right now in our country. 'Cause it's like huge. It's a win-win for everybody. So, but yeah, I've had really amazing experiences overseas. I mean, the school I went to in Holland, we were seventy students from twenty-three countries. So it was on one hand chaotic. But on the other hand, we were from a lot of different cultures, but our language was dance. So we were really in the room together and just, and, you know, there was a lot of nonverbal relational experiences. And so that's where dance comes in as its own language. And it's not a universal language, even though we all have, you know, not all, but many of us, or most of us who are fortunate enough to have our four limbs and or five limbs if you count your spine and your whatever, you know, count many, many limbs. But it was, it was a life changing experience for me. And I had traveled one year. I had traveled in my gap year as well, too. So it was an experience. Yeah. Very big travels (unintelligible). 00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:56.255 Okay. So now turning in earnest to your time at CSUSM--you've been a faculty member on campus for twenty-four years. You already talked about what brought you to CSUSM, but what has been the evolution of CSUSM for you and your time here? For example, what did dance on the campus look like in 2001 compared to now? 00:40:56.255 --> 00:42:50.000 Okay. Yeah. Like I mentioned, I had another offer in Idaho. I mean, I had a lot of interviews, so I was very fortunate for that. I got two offers, and it was kind of like no brainer. It was like, ah, this is just opening. There's so much potential. There were a few courses on the books and they were taught by a lecturer named Terry Sprig, to honor her. She's a dance artist, local. I don't know if she's making work still. So she taught a few classes, but I don't even know to the extent. But as soon as I came in, they gave us, it was, days were different. They were like, okay, you have ten days--they don't tell you us before you get hired--you have ten days to get the courses you want to teach on the books. We're gonna be fast tracking those in in UCC (University Curriculum Committee). I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it's called then. So I wrote some quick courses, and one of the courses I wrote was Women in Performance: Choreographies of Resistance 'cause that really came out of my research and my dissertation. And I did a lot of work on circus when I was in grad school. Even though I did contact improvisation, I did a lot of work on physical culture, the turn of the century, the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. So I got to put that class on the books. I put on a technique class and--but there was like, there was only like three classes. One was Global Modern Dance, which we kept, or was it Cultures in Motion? There was a few. Cultures in Motion we kept, too. Upper division general ed. And then, you know, Bill Bradbury was the chair, and he was like, you need an intro course, so write it. So we like--literally, I'm teaching three courses and then I had to write-- 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 --this curriculum. All this curriculum. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. But now it's, now it's really challenging. It's great. We don't get a lot of allocations because of how the students have a shopping cart and how they, how they go through the system. 'Cause we're still a Dance minor. So when I got here, there were only a couple of classes on the books. And I was offered the opportunity within the first ten days, faculty when we arrived, you jump in, you teach your three courses and you get on a committee and then we'd like you to write the courses you'd like to teach in the next ten days. I'm like, okay. So I did that. I know that one of the courses I wrote was called Women in Performance: Choreographies or Resistance 'cause I was really fresh outta graduate school. This was my research of feminism and performance. And so I taught that class for like twelve years. Really exciting. And it became a general--upper division general ed class. And I'm looking forward to teaching it when I come back FERPing (Faculty Early Retirement Program) actually, 'cause I haven't taught it for a while. And then I put technique classes on the books, and then we all were putting in these intro classes. So I put an Intro to Dance class on the books. I think at that time, it might have been a year or two later. It's hard to remember, but I wrote twenty-eight classes over time.mI am grateful to the Dean's office when Michael McDuffie was there and Ranjita Basu, and Michael gave me great advice on how to create curriculum that would satisfy many things. So I had a lot of topics courses at the beginning and things like that. So, I've also--one of the most popular classes--the program has grown in just so many ways. So we were just me. And then there were me one lecturer. And then at one point there were me and like five or six lecturers. And then it was down to just me and like two lecturers, you know, with the ups and downs of the, of our economy. And now we are just--it's been a wonderful group of people. We're five people. In fact, two of them are, one of them just got their PhD as well from UC Riverside. And another one is getting their PhD, Cuauhtemoc Peranda. And Dava Hernandez just got her degree too. So, and then we have Nhu Nguyen and we have finally got a new hire because that was supposed to be related to the development of our own major. And so after many years, Dance got another tenure track line. And so I'm working with Cheri Hill, doing great job and will be the next leader of Dance Studies. I'm really excited about that. Sheri comes with a lot of experience as a teaching artist, and she's worked in the field of arts and ed and dance and education. So before she came, I had already been working with Liberal Studies and Meryl Goldberg on creating a class that would feed Liberal Studies. So we do actually six courses a year that feed Liberal Studies. So that's great. But it's also, we are losing some of our allocations. So it's hard, but it's great. It's great for the field, it's great for the students. And I'm really excited about the way that's really grown. The other area of the program that's grown is like, the diversity of the kinds of classes we wrote, that I wrote, over the years. So I really tried to--we're not doing, like--we're not doing ballet, modern, and jazz, you know. We had hip hop. It declined. We're gonna have--Cheri just wrote a new course. We're gonna have a wonderful new intro to hip hop class coming on that's related to, it's called Hip Hop Fundamentals. So it'll really meet the criteria of general ed. And then we will learn about the history of hip hop and alongside the commercial aspects so, and the very, the strong politics of the field. So we're really doing a lot. And then I'm really proud of a class that I co-wrote called Contemporary Folklorico. So that course has been on the books for almost ten years now. And I wrote it with Alfonso Cervera, and he was a student over at UC Riverside as well, and now is teaching at Ohio State. Amazing job. Amazing leader in dance in terms of Latinx work. And so that class is one of our most popular classes. We teach five or six sections a year, too. And I'm really proud of that because it really meets our demographic here and serving our Hispanic service--our Hispanic learning institution goals. So I just think it's very important that dance just stays--it's an alive field. So it's also, it's not the course--like there were other institutions where you might go work and they would--at least 20 years ago--they would just hand you the book and they're like, here, teach this dance appreciation class. But I've always been like, no, you teach what you know, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna teach some breadth. So when I hire faculty, I make sure that they can teach the breadth of the field and touch on many things, but they can really focus in on their, on their areas of research. So Cuauhtemoc, for example, is really--their p PhD is on voguing. And so they're really teaching the students like the history of voguing, the roots of voguing, the political significance of voguing. And so it touches on a lot of different things in terms of sociology and political science and history. And so we do all of that. So all of the dance classes have built in a practice-theory component. So there's always something, whether it's just a project that's embodied--so the students step out outside of the box and have to do something physically--that you know, that they're able to do. So it's a very active learning environment in Dance Studies. And that's really different here. And I think school--other schools have grown into that, but I was able to start that off at the ground. And so I'm actually really proud of that. This program really fosters that way of learning. So we're not just like watching a movie, we're gonna, at some point you're gonna get up and either make a movie or do a documentary and step into what the work is. Yeah, so we're moving towards a major. Unfortunately it didn't pass UCC, and Cheri is leading that and I'm working with Cheri on that. And we're looking at it as really like a degree that meets many branches of the field. So we still wanna' be creating and nurturing those that wanna' be dance makers. We're also meeting the field of arts and education, integrative arts and learning, and also social justice. So, we could say that word (unintelligible). Social justice. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.835 Absolutely. 00:49:50.835 --> 00:49:55.625 Yes. All of those things are a threat today, so-- 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:55.848 Yeah, of course. 00:49:55.848 --> 00:52:55.000 But that's what we do. And you know I will say like every course that got passed here has the word diversity in it because that's what we do in dance. Dance is a diverse field. And even though I'm a white woman, I mean, from the beginning I always started with Black dance in America because when I taught lower division general ed, because our country is built upon the history of African people. So, dance is so infused with the migrant experience from so many different cultures. So, and then over the years, we have done a few things with American Indian Studies as well. So we're, we're working, we're working it here on our campus. We do a lot of outreach. So whoever we're bringing in is working that way. It's very integrative. So just this semester I'm really proud of a project. Can I say a little bit more about that? In terms of curriculum? So, I always brought guest artists here. And because it's really important for students to meet people working in the field outside of the institution--even though I am working outside of the institution in the summers and in general with my research. But, so I've always brought in guest artists through Arts and Lectures but also through Dance Studies through grants and things like that. So we started off with a very small lab budget, and it's grown. So I have a little line item to bring in guest choreographers. So I've brought in some amazing people. Many of them my teachers. And so those projects really influence the curriculum. So even though we might offer a choreography class, students can take it three times because it'll be different every time. Yeah. And this year, we brought Dancing Through Prison Walls, and it was just a very profound experience. So, I got a nice grant from IRA (Instructionally Related Activities fund) and Arts and Lecturers, and they came, and we did a residency. So again, in terms of like the hours with dance--and I my offer students alternatives if they're working and they can't make it--but they, I always, for the last, before COVID, there were three years and, yeah, three years of artist residency projects. So artists would come and they would either stay with me or friends, or last year we got a little grant money, they could get their own Airbnb. But I put up several artists over the years and they'd make a piece with students and they would leave and then either I or another faculty member would nurture that. And Anya Cloud and I did that for several years together. We did that for three years, where artists would come for a week and then they would leave and then we would rehearse and nurture the piece all the way through the spring dance concert. So yeah. The spring dance concert is our culminating event. Yeah. It's amazing. Very big event. Did I answer your question? 00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:30.304 You did. Okay. So this is a little bit more general, but ,it sounds like, from what you've talked about and your history, that you could have chosen different paths when it comes to dance. Different career paths in terms of what you did with that. Or even back to the high school, right? Like what would've happened if you had gone to the performing arts high school? But you chose a career in higher education. How has that lived up to your expectations? 00:53:30.304 --> 01:03:00.324 Wow. Good question. I have to say I'm super grateful because at least in the U.S., there's not very many jobs in dance. I'm extremely grateful to have a salaried position in the beginning, a pension. So I don't take that lightly. And, yeah. That's big. And there's not that many jobs in dance and higher education. So I feel very, very fortunate that I got this job as well. And that's why when I got it, I mean, I take it very, very seriously. There's a lot of work to be done in the field. And this--I don't even like the word fighters--but everybody working in dance and higher education is, we're fighting for it all 'cause the resources are less and less, unless you're in certain institutions. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. So I worked really hard, I realized. My mom used to even say--'cause I, when I was chair also of VPA (Visual and Performing Arts) for a year and a half, almost two years. Interim chair. And I would go see my parents on spring break 'cause they're from the East coast. And so I'd bring my computer and my mother would be like, You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. So, yeah, I mean I worked a lot. I worked way more than forty hours a week in this job, like way more. And I don't have any regrets. I'm a little tired, maybe, but I know I'll refuel. Hence retiring a little sooner than I thought I was going to. 'Cause we'll probably get to that question, I imagine. Somewhere along the way. But, you know, our campus has grown a lot, but we all in the School of Arts are working hard. You know, we, how do I say this? Lots of gratitude, but we've all, you know, we've all talked about how we need space, how we need a theater. Our university has grown to a size that we're really ready for--I'm not so fixed on dance has to be in a theater. But we do need a place. So I think dance could grow more and could have grown more had we had a space. So we have a beautiful studio that doubles as a black box theater and we share it with Theater. But that's all we have. So, and then we use--Music, Theater, and Dance share the theater, the performance hall that was designed for music. So that's been hard. And so it's like, it gets to be, I used--I don't even use the expression anymore, but for like five, the last five years, I'm like, broken record. Like, we cannot, how, you know, what do you need? Or, you know, if I'm writing with Cheri, the needs that we'll need to have a major, and just because we write we need space doesn't mean that that should halt the major. We have to keep moving forward. But it's that whole what what comes first. It doesn't really work in today's economy, but dance is more important than ever, I believe. And I think the, our SoCal and our nation's culture around dance has changed so much in positive ways. With social media and many things. I'm like, wow. You know, and when I, you know, there was like ten years where people are like, do you watch Dancing With the Stars? When it came out. And I'm kind of like, no you know, like I don't have time to watch that show. Or, you know, like, oh I'm going to the theater this weekend. Because I'm really into promoting for students live art, live dance. Students, when they go and see a show here, they've never been--so many students.have never been to the theater. And it's like, so I really, I'm so grateful for my parents that I had that experience. And again, we weren't, I was from a very working class family, but it was a priority for my parents. And my mom used to take me to Brooklyn College. So I saw like really traditional, amazing Black dance in America throughout the seventies. I mean, my dance education was really opened by having my grandparents in New York and going in and out of New York. And my mother would just take me to these things that I probably would never have seen before. So, I just think the live art experience is really important, and I think our University could be cultivating that more. So that's an expect--that's one criticism. Like we had a President who called it the crown jewel, and it really is, and it could be more of a cultural hub. So that, but otherwise, you know, like I'm super grateful. It took me a long time to get to the pro--dance program. So I worked for fifteen years just doing what a program director does but not compensated for that. I just built the program because what else was I gonna' do? Everybody else was building around me. So I'm like, okay, well build a program. So I kind of floated around a little bit. So I reported to Visual Arts for a while and, but I was still doing the work of being a director. So it's really my--the art. When we sent things up to CAPC (Curriculum and Academic Policy Committee), there was a year that, my colleagues stood up for me and said, It's now time for dance to get a hire. So, to be a program. And then there was the moment where to get a hire--so I was, dance got ranked finally for a hire--but that took like five years once the School of Arts stood behind dance, moving up the line. So there was just many, many years where I was carrying everything. You know, I had a great colleague in Anya Cloud did a lot, and Cherie Hill is doing an amazing job. And all of the lecturers right now are above and beyond. But I also, and I also give them autonomy to do what they want. First of all, I can't do it all on my own anymore, but it's like, in terms of positionality, you know, we're very, we've got a wide spectrum of cultural identities and ethnic identities in our makeup of our program. And that's really important. And so for me, it's like I need to step aside what other people bring, people who they wanna' bring. Even though we always had conversations, I was kind of carrying it. But that now I'm able to find a little pot of money so that they can get a little stipend for curating something that they wanna' bring. So I'm really--contact improvisation at it's heart is about horizontal politics, so I lead with horizontal politics here. And I always have too much information. I send too many emails after the Dean's meeting, even though they're lecturers, I'd send them what's going on because we're, we say we're small and mighty. So in order for the program to grow, let the young people come forward as well. Though I do believe in intergenerational, but I also believe, you know, let the young people come forward. And Cheri is doing and also she's gonna do a great job. And she's already done so much since she's here. So, I trust that it's gonna carry forward. I don't know in what ways, but I'm open to that. You know, and I think I, I believe and have faith that the School of Arts is in full support of Dance. I have great colleagues. I've done many things, but we're all working really hard so--but it's just a great group of people. It always has been. So what was the question? Has CSUSM lived to my exectations? Well, yeah. I would say yes. And yet we know we really, we do need some more space, and I wish we had more allocations 'cause we can't build the min--we can't build the major unless we get the classes. And then you can't get the classes if you can't offer them. And you can't get, you can't offer them if the students don't sign up for them. So there was that moment where the shopping cart card came forward for students. I don't think that was great. I liked when we used to do--it was a lot of work. And even I didn't have a program I used to advise for Visual and Performing Arts. So I would have my own list. You know, the chair would say, Karen, here's your list. You're gonna advise all these people. Okay, what, what do they need to take? You know, they're visual arts students. But these halls used to be full, lined up, you know, when we'd be registering for classes. So you'd get to really meet the students, but then you would ensure that all these classes are gonna be full. But now the students, it's a different climate, but, you know, I can't change the system, so-- 01:03:00.324 --> 01:03:04.231 Bringing on the technology and you know, having-- 01:03:04.231 --> 01:05:40.445 it's great. But it's also, I think students, they need the advice and the opportunity to sit down with not just advising, but here. I think I'm taking a tangent from the--okay. So I hope, I hope that the, I hope that, yeah. I've also, the other thing that I've done with the curriculum that I've been en enabled to do with some amazing colleagues on our campus is create community engagement projects. I didn't really talk about that, but I did a few highlights. I did-- I started the collaboration with A Step Beyond, and our dean is now on the board, a fairly new dean, Dean Leora Gubkin. And for five years I taught a class over there. So, and that really ties into our dance and education pathway that may or may not grow into directly into that, but it's a great opportunity for students. And Meryl is working with Cheri and other faculty on this big arts and education certification. Arts certification project. So we're really in that already. And then I've gotten a few students jobs over at A Step Beyond. And so that was great. And I worked with Community Engagement. I got a little stipend at one point to work with them and create a course that was specific to working with them called Dance in the Community. That was inspired by Kristine Diekman as well. She did a big video in the community project for many years that always inspired me. She made public service announcements with like, so many underserved communities in our area. And so she's always been like, how do you do that? So she, she lit the way for me, so I wanna' acknowledge her also in this interview. So there was that. And then I did, I worked with Veronica Anover and worked at the Glenner Town Center, which is an Alzheimer's day center. And we did a whole project there. And then I did another fundraiser over at the Conrad Prebys theater in La Jolla. So I've done a few big community projects. I worked with the Museum of--it was called Museum of Man then--at Balboa Park. And I worked with Judy Bauerlein, and we brought guest artists there, and we did big project there. So I think those kinds of experiences for students are so important. 01:05:40.445 --> 01:05:45.172 Yeah. And a lot of like community feelers and outreach. 01:05:45.172 --> 01:06:24.000 Yeah. And bringing community to campus, too. I've brought a lot of community to campus 'cause I brought some well-known artists here. So different schools would come here. I worked with NCHEA (North County Higher Education Alliance) as well for like five years in my early days. And we did some really big projects. We brought legendary Donald McKayle here. He was at UC Irvine. He was already in his late seventies, early eighties when he came. I think it was early eighties. And he was the Alvin Aileys teacher. And so we've done, we've done some big things. I'm sure there will be more big things. Yeah. So to our little campus, we've done some big projects. 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:59.605 That's right. Okay. So this is changing gear a bit. Okay so my, the overarching question is what did you do during Covid? But in our pre-interview you mentioned, you talked about the double pandemic and that the Covid-19 virus increased awareness of systemic racism. So the question really is what did you do during Covid? When we were all kind of locked inside-- 01:06:59.605 --> 01:14:20.635 Well, I did a lot during Covid. I--with the rise of Black Lives Matter and the murder of George Floyd, you know, everything stopped in certain ways. And I immediately, you know--for a moment--and then I immediately gathered with other colleagues in School of Arts, a few of us, we worked the entire summer to create a series. We got some money from the dean's office through some donors, through the Wagner family. And we used all of that money to program online lectures and performances. So that was like a big project. I don't know. We did at least nine, ten events per semester that was open to whole campus. But we really geared it towards School of art students to get them, to get them going. And it was, at that time during COVID, too, there was a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) project that I worked that Mtifiti Imara invited me to be part of. So I worked with a faculty member.So the artist that we worked with was T. Lang. And we also worked with Melicia Taylor, who's become a friend and collaborator Melicia was a lecturer here in Music. So Melicia was also hired. So these are significant Black artists. Melicia is a sound designer and an opera singer. And Melicia came here and brought compositions. And we did a piece with, I think it was my choreography class. It was choreography or improvisation. We did a dance film called I Am, and the students did their own choreographies at home. And then she worked with a filmmaker to sew it together. So we did a film. I brought another artist. We were still in--well we were just opening--Jose Abad from San Francisco, another Black artist. So I brought a lot of--working with a lot of Black artists to campus. I was doing that. like I said, I've been doing that all along. But it was really a focus on that with HBCU--our campus relationship grew with that. Cheri just did that project this year. So yeah, I was really amazed at that. And we worked with students. We came in even though the campus was on lockdown. We got permission to come in and students got to work with some of these choreographers over Zoom and made their own works. So Skyla Miles and Minnie Atkins both made work, both alum from Dance Studies with, during this HBCU project. Also brought, Mayfield Brooks, who was very known in New York and in Europe and South America, and well, globally, for her work with--she calls it improvising while Black. And she has written a lot and did a lot of projects around Black culture and survival and things. So yeah, it was very, very prolifically busy and happening. And then at the same time, I was gearing up for my sabbatical application. And so even though we were in, still in Covid, I wrote my application to do this project called Think Gravity Dance Tank. So that was really involving--it was happening still during Covid. And we had a symposium and it was taking on the 50th anniversary of contact improvisation. So that's my, it was almost a continuation. It's kind of is a continuation of what I wrote about in my PhD in 2001 about contact not being universalist and who writes the history. So we brought forward some less recognized histories. So Ishmael Houston-Jones was my teacher in Holland way back when, in 1990. No, 1989. 1989. That's his brick (points to brick on window sill). He has a very famous bit called White Hope that he dances with this brick and he's danced with a brick internationally. And he's a very well respected artist. So it was a very creative way to do a curatorial project, where we invited four people, and we let them invite four people. And then we brought students. So Anya Cloud got a job at, in Boulder, University of Colorado. So they have a much bigger facility. So we did it there. And we had a week-long symposium, and we called it a reckoning with contact improvisation. And we stepped back 'cause we're both white women and we let everybody else lead. And, but we held the container and things like that. And then from that, we created a film because we had so much stuff. We had interview, we interviewed everybody, and then we had incredible footage. So we made a documentary. That documentary won best documentary at the Toronto Dance Film Festival. So we were happy with that. Or Contact Festival (Contact Dance International Film Festival) was just recently. And we've screened it in a few places, and it's gotten really good feedback. So it's a bit of a reckoning with the history in terms of who's identified 'cause contact improvisation is historicized as very white. Whereas its influences are very much based in African American culture, history and ways of working in jazz music and things like that. In terms of what is a jam, what is it to improvise. And then also there is a history of Eastern Asian American and Asian art influences in terms of what is yielding, what is gravity, what is meditation. So we brought in other voices to speak about cultural histories and positionality in terms of race and culture. So it was really, it was really productive and it was a deep experience. And it was cool 'cause we brought--I got student success funds from here and Anya got some money from her institution. So we involved, we were about twenty-six people, something like that. Between twenty-four and twenty-eight. But half of them were students. So it was really important to bring the future forward. So again, this was another project that really is based in intergenerational community and containers. And I'm really happy 'cause Makisig Akin is Philippinx and they took the model of curation and they did a whole BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) dance festival in Berlin, probably one of the first or of the first. And they used that model of curation and they were really, really excited that, to learn that way of curating. So there's that curating piece of mine, too, that yeah. People, if nobody curates, then you're not gonna' have the work, you know And we're, it's strong to curate one at a time, but it's also strong to curate symposiums that bring people togetherfor some time. Yeah. 01:14:20.635 --> 01:14:32.795 Okay. So do you have work, a work that you've accomplished in your career that has been most impactful in your opinion? 01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.704 Impactful on the field or-- 01:14:34.704 --> 01:14:35.805 To you. 01:14:35.805 --> 01:14:42.104 Oh, to me or to the field? 01:14:42.104 --> 01:14:46.305 Or both. 01:14:46.305 --> 01:16:17.000 Well, in terms of my training, my work with Debra Hay affected my perceptual improvisation very greatly. So Deborah Hay is a, still working artist and dance elder. And I studied with her, I saw her perform in Holland, but I wasn't in her class. And then I brought her with this group Lower Left that I worked with for many years in San Diego. So I've dipped in and out of her work. And I'm really proud that I recently got to perform with her in her work at the Getty. It was a re-dance, a recreation of a work from the sixties. So she was a very significant artist that emerged in the sixties. And she's continued to emerge internationally. So she really had a great impact on my career of how I dance. But I think--I don't know, it's such a hard question. I guess--now I'll get a little emotional because I guess creating the program is probably my biggest impact. I mean, it was a lot of work. 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.000 A lot of work. A lot of really important work. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:19:24.505 I hope University continues to support it. I mean, I think it had the greatest impact 'cause I--thousands of students have taken dance classes here. And I'm sure, because you can read it, some of them was whoa, but most of them always write in the evals, I didn't know dance could be like this, or I didn't know--I just can't imagine that we would talk about dance like this, or dance could be this way or this class--even if I'm not teaching it. But creating a program where the people are invited to teach what they love to teach, to teach what they know and but to also really keep bringing in this idea that we're gonna embody the learning. I think San Marcos is unique like that, and I think the way it's open has and its opening, is pretty unique. And, but I guess, you know, I've, and I've done Summer Arts as well, so I've worked within the system and I did six summers with Summer Arts. I did two as an artist. One was during my hire, one was before my hire. And that program is over. It just got closed. 'Cause one of the biggest things the State of California did for the arts was like, oh my gosh. But I think it's, I guess I never really thought about that when you said is there some favorite work? And I was like, favorite, I mean, you know, Think Gravity was enormous. Veronica was enormous. Live Legacy was enormous. You know? I had a big practice in San Diego with people for seven years. We met every Thursday researching dance, and then I'll show you after on the wall. Lower Left was huge part of my life. Holland, Riverside was huge. But I guess the biggest accomplishment or impact, the greatest impact would be I guess this Wow. I never thought about it like that. When I visited, when I was doing, um, the Deborah Hay work--Deborah Hay is friends with Susan Foster, who's the, who I referred to as the godmother of dance studies. I don't know if she'd like that title, but I'll give it to her. She was like--I went to visit her house. She was like, You did it. She, because I think when they took me into that program, I was a bit of a wild card card 'cause they took a lot of scholars. They didn't--at the time wasn't practicing PhD, but I was dancing, like really committed to dancing and performing still. And so I was a bit of a wild card. I didn't get the, I didn't get the scholarship, you know, the first year. I didn't get the teaching the first year. They took me, but they didn't give me the, they didn't give me the scholarship. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do this anyway and see how I like it. And so that, but she looked at me, she's like, You did it. 'Cause you know, I guess I did, right? There's a program here. So time to let it go to the next people. 01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:26.000 Well, that comes to the last question-- 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000 --the last question, I imagine-- 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000 which is-- 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.496 now you got me going. 01:19:30.496 --> 01:19:43.234 Oh it's. We want to, we want to get your feelings in there, too. What do you plan to do both personally and professionally in your retirement? 01:19:43.234 --> 01:23:27.185 Well, the first thing I want to do, and I am doing it, is slowing down a bit. I'm coming off of a season of lot of loss, too, a lot of loss of family. So yeah, I wanna' slow down. So I'm gonna slow down this summer and do some organizing. Continue to clean the office a little bit. And also, um, yeah, do some organizing. And then planning for my fall. I'm gonna go to Austria. I've been invited by my mentor, Donna Ray, who's a top-level Feldenkrais teacher. And she runs the institute in Vienna, the training institute. So I'm gonna' go with, there's a brand-new cohort starting. So I rented myself an apartment overlooking some park in Vienna, and it has a beautiful view of a park. And I'll walk through the park every morning and I, I'll be an assistant in the training. That means I'll be working basically. And I'm hoping that will really hone my skills even more so as I transition into retirement, I'm still gonna' be working. I'm not like retiring. So there's a woman who, as a dance legend, there's just many dance legends, you know, who work into their nineties. It's not like you stop. I really think I will always be working in the field in some way. I don't know what that is yet. I would like to curate in a theater, but they don't have those kinds of spaces in San Diego anymore, where you can just have a studio like that where you can. That's one of the things I would, I could imagine. So I'm gonna' do that and I'm gonna' go to visit a former student who's now a well-known Swiss actress and has a wonderful family. So I'm gonna' stay with her and watch her on the big stage and take a walk in the Alps. And then I'm going to do a vocal training. And it something--it's called Roy Hart. And I studied with them in San Francisco, one of their proteges. It's in a long line of lineage from the thirties and forties. And it's a vocal technique that was used in theater, like experimental theater, in the fifties and sixties. But it's also like, I'll use the word therapy. I'm not afraid of that. It's therapeutic as all art can be therapeutic, healing. Like let's transform. That's what we do in the arts, we transform. So I'm going to study some voice. And then when I come back, I'm already invited--there's a, I used to, I put myself through graduate school as a Pilates trainer, even though I'm not certified at Pilates. But I'm gonna bring Feldenkrais into their Pilates studio and do like a little one night a week class. And then, my friend Anya is up for--Anya and Mcsig are up for a big, NEFA, the New England Foundation of the Arts is one of the few funders that give fairly big money in dance in our country. They're a finalist if they get that they're doing an interdisciplinary dance project. And I guess I'll be performing. So that's the goal. The goal is to keep doing yoga, dance, walk, social activism. And I also like to paint and write. 01:23:27.185 --> 01:23:27.965 Wow. 01:23:27.965 --> 01:23:33.154 We'll see. There'll be a little more time for that. Yeah. 01:23:33.154 --> 01:23:36.994 I love that. You're gonna keep busy. 01:23:36.994 --> 01:23:41.045 Yeah, I'll be busy, but I've also, this summer, I'm gonna slow it down. 01:23:41.045 --> 01:23:51.000 And that's really good, too. So is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? 01:23:51.000 --> 01:25:41.064 I think what I would like to do though is we talked about taking a few photos. And I'm really happy--I guess what I'll say is that I'm really happy that the University's interested in this interview and maybe scanning some of the posters and all things that were presented. Maybe they can even use it to use it as fuel to get a theater or a bigger production venue. Or, or a unit that would like to take care of some of these things so that faculty don't have to do all that work, But I also, I guess I wanna' really honor the founding faculty. Maybe just take a moment. I could close with that. Everybody worked really hard, and I'm really honored to have been part of the upstart. And I hope and believe that our campus will keep on during whatever's going on in the world. And I really hope that the arts can really stay strong here. Yeah. I think we are such an incredible group of artists in the School of Arts, so I just wanna' wish everybody well and to keep on. And I really, I hope that students will--and faculty and committees and the administration will--see really the value of what Dance does. 'Cause dance is really, plays a big role in the world. And like I said, it can be a lot of fun, but it goes way deeper than that. 01:25:41.064 --> 01:25:57.645 Well, that's a really great note to end on. Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to thank you for allowing us to celebrate you and your career and every, all the hard work that you've done all of this time. And I know there's a lot more to come for you, but kind of at this milestone-- 01:25:57.645 --> 01:25:58.354 Thank you. 01:25:58.354 --> 01:26:01.805 --you know, moment for you. Just thank you for sharing with us. 01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:09.234 Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. 01:26:09.234 --> 01:29:28.000 There's a few projects that I'd like to highlight that were highly sponsored by the University and that had a great, also had a great impact on my life. And the first one is a project called United and Severed. I think that I will reach for the pamphlet to refresh myself on how important this project was. So I did this with Professor Kristine Diekman, and actually this project was really personal, but I was able to take a very personal experience--this is what artists do if you don't write memoirs, and they take it out into the world. And so it was following my own--I had a very severe traumatic injury while I was employed here. Lived through that. And I stood in as like a surrogate body on film for the topic of that window of time. So it deals with women and traumatic injury and PTSD. So at the time, I was also in close relationship with somebody who is working as a active--not active duty--non-active duty for the military, who was working around soldiers and PTSD and the Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq aftermath. And so Kristine and I looked for alum and students from our school, who were survivors of traumatic injury and how they dealt with it. And so Kim Anderson is--was in it and she was a CSUSM Liberal Studies major. And Ivy Kensinger was a student of mine and also Veronica Anover. She survived a horrific car accident on the way to campus. And turns out she is now a PhD in psychology. So very--came through in a miracle way. And we did a project that was a very poetic representation of movement and understanding disability. So that was featured. And we also worked with Butoh dancers because it was also during the time of some wild fires out in East County. So we took a group of students and we took down a tree from the extremities down to the trunk that was burned. And Richard Keeley is a professor, was a professor at San Diego State--is retired. and Anna O'Cain is a professor, visual art professor, who was working at Miracosta. And we did a huge project together that was featured at Center for the Arts Escondido. So I really wanted to highlight that. It was a very deep project. We have beautiful video footage. Kristine did an incredible job editing. I was sitting alongside her. She pushed all the buttons. Of course, it was really her editing that made the project so spectacular. And our work was featured in many film festivals internationally. So I just really wanted to mention that we have this beautiful artifact from that. And then the other project that I wanted to talk about was, um, wait a minute. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.315 Your palliative care work. 01:29:30.315 --> 01:30:59.000 Oh, my current work that I will continue when I'm, that I actually have a meeting in ten minutes for, that I'm working with Palliative Care--that's a pilot project--that's run by Michael McDuffie. And I'm working with Ranjita Basu and Andrew Spieldenner. And now we have a cohort of people from the Mindfulness Center working on it. And we're working with Elizabeth Healthcare Center, Elizabeth Hospice Center. And we're doing a once-a-month project on mindfulness. And so I'm bringing in the somatic piece. So really it's been a great, We've been working on that together for about a year and a half. And now we're enacting it over there in Escondido. And next week we'll have our third monthly session, and it will go through the year. So I will be still staying involved as a volunteer for that, while I'm off the books. And so I'm very happy to be doing practical applications in different fields. And that connects as I interweave everything that I've said today, that you know, that what I do with dance and what I believe dance can do in the world has a great impact because we're working with the body and compassionate empathy. We all have a body. We're always moving, even if it's, we're just, we're down to the breath. Breath is movement. And so with that, I'll just take a breath and say thank you. 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.000 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-084 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience