7 10 83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexa Clausen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Flores Rios OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Times-Advocate newspaper;North County Times newspaper;North County, San Diego;Wild Animal Park;San Diego Zoo Safari Park;Photography;Black and white negatives;color negatives;dark room;color theory;color separation;digital camera;digital cameras;Rollieflex;Yashica;Nikon;Photoshop;Chromega;Rancho Bernardo, CA;Penasquitos, CA;Fallbrook, CA;San Diego, CA;Escondido, CA;Wildfire;Advertising;marketing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rios, Dan. Interview May 9th, 2017 SC003-03 00:39:31 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Escondido (Calif.) ; Fallbrook (Calif.) ; Penasquitos (Calif.) ; Rancho Bernardo (San Diego, Calif.) ; Photojournalists ; Digital cameras ; Photographic chemicals ; Mexican Americans Times-Advocate newspaper ; North County Times newspaper ; North County, San Diego ; Wild Animal Park ; San Diego Zoo Safari Park ; Photography ; Black and white negatives ; color negatives ; dark room ; color theory ; color separation ; digital camera ; digital cameras ; Rollieflex ; Yashica ; Nikon ; Photoshop ; Chromega ; Rancho Bernardo, CA ; Penasquitos, CA ; Fallbrook, CA ; San Diego, CA ; Escondido, CA ; Wildfire ; Advertising ; marketing Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen .wav RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1c3ee8d55ddb0829d191f2f592e8217e.wav Other audio English Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's career working for the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times.&#13 ; &#13 ; As the Chief Photographer, Rios was instrumental in transitioning the North County Times from publishing images in black and white, to publishing in color. He recounts how photographers were initially required to buy and maintain their own equipment and how he was able to create a deal with the newspaper to compensate photographers fairly for their equipment. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:03.000 --> 00:01:11.000 Ok, good morning, we are now recording. Uh, this is Alexa Clausen with Dan Rios on our third session interviewing regarding his career, the Times Advocate and North County Times. It’s May 9th, 2017, and, uh, just by way of introduction, today we are going to focus a little bit more on the technical aspects that Dan had encountered and worked with. Based on what he said that during his interview as a young man as a photographer, he was hired because he had a specialty and knowledge of color. And he had brought his portfolio, and the bosses said “Yeah, we’re moving in this direction and you’re the guy. So, maybe from that starting point in the status of the color for this newspaper and where they were going and your involvement, if we could start there? 00:01:11.000 --> 00:04:32.000 Yeah, ok. Yeah, uh, I was hired, May of 1968 and that was one of the questions asked me was whether I knew how to do color and I had specialized in color my last year, semester, in college. And I shared my portfolio and the day after that I was hired. Uh, I started working the dark room as their first full-time photographer. They had had a part time photographer, and they had a reporter/photographer named Mary Jane Morgan who would take pictures, process the film, and print things on what was called a Photo-rite machine. It was basically a large Polaroid. The paper had the emulsion built in. You exposed the paper, feed it through this machine and it would come out in print. Umm, it was never fixed or finished. It was just air dried as an instant print, and it would be used for the reproduction. They had gone off-set, and they would, the uh, production department, would screen it- what was called 'screening' these pictures. And read them in the paper. Well, I started and uh, thought this was not the, the right way to go, so I installed regular processing chemicals and paper. But we did use the Photo-rite machine to proof everything, make contact prints instantly so the reporters and advertising could select the photos, and I would print them. Uh, during this time, uh, Keith Seals was the production manager and asked me if I knew how to do color separations. And I had, uh, played with this in college and I told him I would do research, and I’d get back to him, and I did. And I came up with this process of using color film with color filters, with the enlarger, and using panchromatic paper-it, which is, uh, registered all colors of the spectrum. As opposed to orthochromatic paper which only registers, uh, blue light. Red light doesn't register, hence the red light in the dark room. You can work in the dark room without damaging the papers cause, it would not be sensitive to red light. Well, panchromatic paper is sensitive to all colors of the spectrum. So, I would have to work in total darkness. And I would expose, and I played around with this, and I would expose these different papers. Four papers. The black, the cyan, the yellow and the magenta- in different sheets of paper and process them and come with different images using the enlarger and different filters. Colored filters. And then giving them four sets of prints. And, I had to use this home-made device to register. I would punch the papers and then I would align them with the punches on the, on the surface of the enlarger. Um, I would hand these papers over to black and white prints to the production department. They would screen them all, uh, because they were all different. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.000 Yeah 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:42.000 Using the filters and come up with the separations. Uh, prior to that, we would send color transparencies to Monrovia. The newspaper in Monrovia, 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.000 Ok 00:04:43.000 --> 00:05:12.000 And they would separate there at 133 lines per inch. But they would take two-three weeks to come back. So, we had to plan there was no instant color in the paper. We had to plan for Christmas, Easter, 4th of July, stuff like that. Very sporadic. I remember Keith Seals telling me once that his dream was to be able produce, reproduce half column color mug shots every day in the paper. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Wow. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.000 Eventually, we got to the point where we did that. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:43.000 Well, we did this color separation system of mine, uh, for a year, year and a half. And maybe even longer. Uh, we got better equipment in the, uh, in the production department to scan my, uh, my separations. And I remember when the Wild Animal Park cause I was taking pictures there from groundbreaking to ribbon cutting. 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:44.000 Oh, sure! 00:05:44.000 --> 00:06:46.000 And, in fact I had shot the color, the cover in 4” x 5” color transparency. And we did send that out to be scanned and separated. But we had a collection of all these color negatives. And when grand opening of Wild Animal Park, I spent maybe 30 hours straight in the dark room separating each negative from Friday afternoon till Sunday about noon. Came home a couple times, had supper, took a shower and went back. At the end of my session there on Sunday afternoon I couldn't feel the floor. I was hallucinating. I had been in the dark so long, working so many hours. So, Monday when the crew came in, they started separating. And that was a special section that we put out for the Wild Animal Park. 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.000 Now, how, uh, was the color technology going forward elsewhere? 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.000 Yes, uh, yes. 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:58.000 And, and were you able to merge your color separation system with what was coming forward? 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:18.000 No, no. Eventually the company did research and there was a man in Escondido who would do color separations for us, for color slides, color positives. And we quit my separation, thank God. Cause it was, it was a, ah. 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:19.000 It was too labor intensive. 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.000 Yeah, it really, really was. 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.000 Plus, you’re exposed to all that, the chemicals. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:33.000 Yeah, the chemicals never bothered me, they were harmless, unless you drank them, I suppose. But eventually they bought a machine to do color separation in the Production Department. 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:36.000 When do you think this was? What year? 00:07:36.000 --> 00:08:10.000 Hmm, mid-70's, late 70's. Yeah. Um, but when I started there, um, I brought my own equipment in and I had 4” x 5” cameras, and 2” and a quarter cameras, and 35 mm cameras, and strobe lights, and light stands, and lighting equipment. Uh, when I got there, I think the paper had three Rolleiflex cameras that, uh, everybody used. Um, they were continuously being broken. Man handled and uh... 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:11.000 Yep, that’s the problem… 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:46.000 So, I went to Ron Kinney, and I said to him. Oh, to back up. Eloise Perkins was going on vacation, and she wanted her own camera. So, I did a little research and found out that there was a Japanese company Yashica that was making a twin lens reflex camera for about 70 dollars, 78 dollars I think, I got her one. Whereas the Rolleis were costing 500 to 700 dollars apiece. This is 1968, 70, 71. I don't know how much it would be in today's dollars. But it would be massively expensive. 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.000 Oh, it would be $10,000… 00:08:50.000 --> 00:09:03.000 Yeah, so she started using her own camera and bringing the film in. And my god, I couldn't believe the negatives were as sharp or sharper than the Rolleiflexes, from a 70-dollar camera. 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:06.000 But you continued to use your own equipment? 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:42.000 Yes, right. And I was using their Rolleiflex. Till I got one for myself and, uh, I bought some new strobe lights because the one they had was not adequate. But finding out how sharp, just, just a fine piece of camera the Yashica was, I went to Ron Kinney and I asked him: We are spending all this money repairing these three Rolleiflexs that we have, why don't we just buy a Rollei… a Yashica for each of the reporters as their own camera? 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:43.000 Right, the cost of… 00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:32.000 The repair bills went down to nothing because they would take care of their own cameras. And we supplied the film, the processing, the printing all they did was take... And some reporters refused to take pictures. If they, if they were forced to, I remember one columnist, overexposed the film so badly that you could see the sun through them. Because he did not want to take pictures, this was his way of rebelling. He says, “I'm not a photographer, I'm a writer, I'm a columnist.” And, then the company would make the reporters take their own pictures when they went on assignment if I wasn't available. But this one reporter, absolutely refused. And he came from San Diego. I think he started in the (19)20's or (19)30's- the San Diego Sun or the Union, the Tribune. 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:36.000 AC: So he was of the school that you send a photographer with the person. 00:10:36.000 --> 00:11:09.000 Yeah, right, yeah. He was not going to mix the professions. The other reporters, they didn't care. Some reporters were pretty good. Bill Kane was pretty good, Eloise was good at taking pictures of monuments, and Kenny Russell was pretty good. There were some reporters that were pretty good photographers. Mary Jane Morgan was pretty good. But when I got them each their own camera the repair bills went down to nothing. And then we had the three Rollies, the two Rollies stayed in the shop for emergencies, back-ups. 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:16.000 Now, at any point with the color, now they would take black and white or would they take rolls of… how did that work? 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.000 No. No color, it was all black and white. All 2 and a quarter inch negatives. All black and white. 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:30.000 Ok, ok, ok. But were you and some of the other photographers the only ones who were allowed to, uh… was there ever color film introduced? 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.000 Oh yeah! We had color film when I first started. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:38.000 Right, right. But when… who was allowed to go use color. If there was a special project. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:39.000 Just me. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:50.000 Because it was expensive. So, if they knew there was a special edition, then you’d take the color? 00:11:50.000 --> 00:12:47.000 Yes, right. Uh, eventually after we hired the dark room technician, Lowell Thorp and then we hired Jim Baird, super photographer. Personality, eh. Then the regime had changed, it was changing at the time. So, we started shooting, eh, we shot, Jim Baird shot strictly 35 mm. And, the film had improved considerably at that point and our chemicals, cause we had experimented with different chemicals to get the finer grain and the negatives sharper images. I eventually went to 35mm also. And, uh, but we also, we shot the color at the 2 and a quarter inch because it was better for reproduction. By then we had our own reproduction and color separation system in the production department. 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.000 What years were you migrating to the 35 mm? 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:54.000 I think it was the mid… mid (19)70s. Mid (19)70s yeah 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.000 And then what about the percentage of color being added to the paper? 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:07.000 Oh, it was, it was 5% at the most. It was just special sections, special assignments, uh, special events in town… that we would plan. 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:12.000 And then when did all that start changing? 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:54.000 Probably the mid to late (19)70s and the beginning of the (19)80s. Because as I had said, Keith Seals dream was to run half column color mug shots. That, to him, seemed like a total waste of effort and time, but that was one of his dreams. And eventually we did that in the (19)80s, mid-(19)80s, type thing. And then we got pretty prolific. And then the, uh, the Ocean Blade, the Blade-Tribune started running color. And their color was better than ours. The reproduction bolder, brighter. And by then the San Diego Union started running color also. 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:57.000 So, they had better equipment, or they had better processing? 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:38.000 Uh, better processing. So, Keith Seals would attend these conventions and come back with new techniques and new machinery. He would bring back a representative from different organizations for better processors and better color separation machines and stuff. So eventually we improved considerably. But then we started adding more photographers and eventually, uh, we started shooting primarily color negative film because then we could run that in black and white and color. We had an option. 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.000 When do you think that was? 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:48.000 I think the mid-(19)80s, late (19)80s. AC: [00:14:43}Ok, so you used the color film, but if you wanted it to be black and white… 00:14:48.000 --> 00:15:53.000 Yeah, the scanning could convert it to black and white. Uh, then we started shooting…we had been shooting color negative and then eventually we turned to color positive slides. And we did that for quite a number of years. Up until the 90's, I think. And then I believe that’s, and I’m not sure, but one… that’s about the mid-(19)90s, the late (19)90s we went to digital, and it was all color. It was a combination of a Nikon camera, an AP got some manufacturer [to] come up with these digital backs. And I think the memory cards were about 250 megabytes. And you couldn’t erase selectively, you had to erase the last image, then you had to reboot. Each photographer was given two cards. So, we had to be very careful what we took pictures of, we couldn't just machine gun because you were very limited. 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:58.000 Right! Your memory was limited, oh that must have been frustrating. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:12.000 It really was! And we would have to come in, and this is what I was trying to learn. And I really didn't want to learn computers. I had no knowledge of computers. I didn’t want to learn computers. I just wanted to finish my career with film. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.000 In those days, to my memory, it wasn't as easy as it is now. 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.000 Oh god no. 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.000 To do the downloading and all...This was not… Just… 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.000 For someone who knew computers, it was probably… I had to write out a list of steps, I think there were twenty steps 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:29.000 That’s the way it was. 00:16:29.000 --> 00:17:13.000 From, from putting the card in the reader, to finding, and I had no idea the folders, and files and clouds and… Oh my God, it was so frustrating. I would go in my shift, from 9:00 AM to 2:30 PM – 3 o clock or 7 to 2:30- 3 o clock. Depending on when I took lunch breaks… But I would go in at 5 o'clock in the morning just to play with the computer. And one of the young kids in the computer department gave me a piece of advice, he said, “whatever you do, you’ll never break the machine. Just shut it down, turn it off and restart it. You're back to square one.' It was such a relief in my mind because I was so nervous, touching buttons, pressing anything. 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:31.000 To my memory, when it was new to me that if you got stuck in loop, to back out was murder. So did they have a day, that all of a sudden, they’re like, “OK, all of your old cameras that took traditional film, you're done. Starting Monday, we're all going to digital?” 00:17:31.000 --> 00:18:35.000 Yes, and at that point, um, when there were six or seven photographers in the pool, we were told that we would have to buy our own equipment. And I went to the owners at that point, I think it was Tom Nolan, I think, and I said, ‘This is unjust,’ because the reporters had computers. And I said, “The computers, they’re not buying their computers, why do we have to buy equipment?” So, we rather, got a compromise, where they would rent our equipment, we would buy the equipment, and they would rent it. They would insure it, and they would repair it, but we would have to buy our own equipment. And it worked out pretty well. Because I would buy gray market, which is not officially imported by the franchise, and they were cheaper. But if the company is gonna pay for the repairs, what did I care if the company, err, manufacturers would not stand behind... You'd have to ship it back to Japan to... 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.000 So, what were you using? Did you stay with Yash… 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000 Nikon. 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.000 Because you had mentioned the Yashica camera. 00:18:43.000 --> 00:19:46.000 Yeah, and uh, eventually, uh, the reporters had the Yashicas. And, then we had the 2 and a quarter Rollies and they were pretty limited. I had a Coma 6 which was a single lens 2 and a quarter. It wasn't as good as the cameras I wanted, it wasn't as sharp as I needed. So, I went to the Production Manager and asked if I can come up with a proposal to buy, I think, four sets of Hasselblad cameras which are 2 and a quarter, single lens reflex. And, he said, 'yea, let me talk to the powers to be and write up a proposal.' And I did. I think I had four sets of them. The camera, a couple bodies, three lenses, filters, other little do-dads that went with it. So, he presented it to the Company, and they agreed. I think they probably spent $20,000. dollars. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000 And they were all for digital? 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.000 No, no no. These are still film. 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:52.000 This is your Nikon with film? When you went to Nikon. 00:19:52.000 --> 00:20:25.000 These are the Hasselbald, yeah. Hasselblad. I wanted to go to Hasselbald to have the interchangeable lenses. The wide angle, the telephotos that type of thing. And we stayed with those and then when we went to 35mm. That's when we had to buy our own equipment. There was one photographer, John Nelson[RS1], I remember who must have had 5,000 dollars’ worth of equipment stolen from him, from his car. [He] came in, no equipment, no job. 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Sounds like an inside job. Someone knew to follow him. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:48.000 Yes, somebody just robbed his car and stole everything. Someone just took it out of his car. So, we all loaned him spare pieces until he had the money to buy his own, type of thing. And really, he wasn't insured at the time. So, he struggled. Because of that equipment, no job. 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:54.000 Now when they moved to using digital cameras, they stayed with Nikon? 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:45.000 Yes. It was a monster of a camera. It was a Nikon camera with Nikon lenses and stuff. But it had a huge back. It looked almost as big as a 4 x 5 camera. And that’s the one they had. I think it had 250 megabytes of memory in each card. We got two cards each. I believe each camera, each setup cost $20,000. And this is the mid-90's, late 90's. I remember one photographer was taking picture by a pool and he fell in the pool with the camera. David, uh, David… I forget his name. And it ruined the camera. The camera was worthless after that. 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:53.000 Well, ya. But they didn't send you for training. They didn’t say to you like “There’s a conference for photographers and journalists.”? 00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:10.000 No. Gave us the cameras. I don't even remember if a representative came in and told us how to run those. I think we learned by ourselves. I don't remember any training at all. At all. We were doing the digital and the 35 and learning. There’s a period of learning. 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.000 Migrating over. 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:35.000 Yea and I hated it. But I knew it was the future. So, I would come in two hours extra and play because we had the Photoshop. We had the earlier version of Photoshop, and I'd play around with that trying to learn the buttons. And, uh, I've got it in my computer now. But I never have learned the whole system. It's so massive. I just learned enough to... 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:42.000 Well, every time I see one of those adult education classes they’ve got, you know, an Intro to Photoshop blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.000 And it’s just so massive… 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:46.000 Yeah, yeah. It’s its own specialty. 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.000 Yeah. You can get a Ph.D. just learning what it has in it. 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:56.000 So, there was really, seemingly, no concern to bring you along immediately into this. 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:09.000 No, it was gradual. Gradual from 35mm color. At that point we were shooting color negatives again because they could be transformed to black and white and color. 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:14.000 So, who was the last person standing who had their old traditional camera? 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:50.000 Oh, I know, uh… oh god… what is his name? A photographer who used to cuss. Because there's no latitude in the digital, there was no latitude. There were no grays. There was darks, colors, or no color. And, God, he would get so frustrated. I would feel so sorry for him because he would try to manipulate the images the way we did in the dark room. There just was no latitude. No latitude in the digital. And it was just so frustrating. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.000 Yeah. You are right. When you start to Photoshop that stuff, it is time consuming. 00:23:53.000 --> 00:25:10.000 Oh, God, yeah. You could spend hours. And if they were… I could go in the dark room and print 25-30 color 8x10's in an hour. And manipulate them, and burn them, and dodge them, and color correct them. And, we had this automatic color processing machine. At one point during the mid-80's they remodeled the dark room, and they put five color enlargers. Each of the photographers wanted their own enlarger, and it was a Leitz, a very expensive 35mm enlarger. I said no, I want a 4 x 5 enlarger. I want a Chromega, and a color analyzer, and digital timer. And I got it and put it in the back of the dark room and that was my enlarger. And nobody fooled with my enlarger. I had it zeroed in where I could print 25-30, 8x10 color prints in an hour. It was just bang, bang, bang. I would read them, analyze them, expose them, put them in the processor, and go do another one, go do another one, another one in an hour. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.000 You were like a little copier machine. 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:22.000 Oh yeah! And by the end of the hour, I had 25-30 color prints. Beautifully printed, stabilized, dried, color corrected. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:33.000 Now these are when they planned, they had… this is in the time they were planning… when the color… which weekend magazine or whatever would have color? 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:42.000 Yeah, right. Well, no, actually we were doing this in the dark room, we were doing color every day. We were running color every day. Everybody was shooting color. Everybody was printing color. 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.000 So, when do you think they did everyday color? By the 90's? 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.000 I was just thinking of when we came to Escondido. 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000 It was all color. 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.000 You know, I’d be three. But it seems like there was a lot of… 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.000 Right, yeah. I think if we ran black and white, it was unusual. Mostly the AP stuff. 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000 But it was new to a lot of people. 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000 Oh, yeah! 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.000 It was kind of exciting that your newspaper had color. 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:30.000 Oh yea. And it was offset. Then at that point they started using recycled paper. Which was gray dull, and the color didn't pop anymore. Prior to that we were using virgin stock. And it was pure white paper, and the color just shot out, it just shouted at you. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:01.000 Now when you were assigned just black and white or color. I was going to ask you, when you’d be assigned. You know how the paper had a Rancho Bernardo edition, and it had a…you know, for sections of town. And, then those would be divided up according to, uh, who… which photos and who got the photos and who went where. Was it all done out of Escondido for these various editions? 00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.000 Yes. 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:15.000 So, if someone was going to cover Penasquitos or Rancho Bernardo then that… the photographer would be assigned there by assignment or that was kind of their territory? 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:46.000 Uh, there were reporters assigned to Rancho Bernardo, Penasquitos, the coast, Fallbrook, San Diego. And they would make their own assignments. They would hand it in to the uh… Because we had a drawer, where the reporter would just put in their assignments. And, then we would just select the assignments which photographer would go where and do what. And that was all shot in color, at that point, color negative. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:52.000 But it wasn’t necessarily on your part that you knew who, what assignment was going to come up, right? 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.000 No, no, no. Every day we would go to this drawer and all the assignments were in there. 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:03.000 Because for a few years, you got a lot more work from an Eloise [Perkins]. But as the paper went forward, and things changed and got bigger there was a whole different… 00:28:03.000 --> 00:29:01.000 Oh yeah, we had more and more photographers and we split the pot among the five or six photographers. Each photographer had two assignments, three assignments a day. Whereas when I started, I would be doing seven, eight, nine assignments a day and processing. At this point, we had purchased…because we were doing color positive, color negatives also, but mostly color negatives and we had a machine, had an automatic color processing machine. Prior to that Lowell Thorp had commissioned a manufacturer to give us a hot water tank and we would process all our film manually [by] color temperature by running hot water through this tank and keeping the temperature at, I think, it was 100 degrees and we would agitate manually each tank as it went through the process. 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:07.000 Oh, I mean… today that would be considered like you’re using stone tablets. DR: [Shows his wrist with scars] 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.000 You got burned? 00:29:08.000 --> 00:30:27.000 No. Carpel tunnel. I developed carpel tunnel by doing that. Because we had these tanks that were holding reels of film in it. And, we would have to do this [twisting motion with wrist] for about a half hour processing - and then wash them and dry them and then proof them. And, uh, eventually when we got Lowell Thorp, he would do all this as the technician, dark room technician. And, uh, he would then print. But some of us would go in there and do our own printing. And this was before we got the new dark room, and Lowell had retired by that point. So, each photographer was in charge of doing his own color processing, film processing and his own color printing. Since I had been doing it forever, I was in charge of teaching the other photographers the color balance, and what it needed. Some prints were too yellow, too cyan, too magenta. I'd tell them what they needed to correct the color. It's what's called color balance. And so, I was basically… and a lot of photographers had knowledge, they could figure it out for themselves most of the time. 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000 And it probably seems archaic now. These old systems? 00:30:31.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Oh God yeah. You see photographers now with their digital cameras. They’ll take a picture and look at the image. Take a picture look at the image. Then you took hundreds and hundreds of shots. And through your experience and past knowledge you knew what was gonna work and what wasn't going to work. So, you went to the dark room. I remember once, and this was taboo. I bought a Nikon camera with an automatic exposure. You just put it on automatic and just shoot your life away. You didn't worry about f-stops, or shutter speeds or anything else. You just click, click, click. It's digital cameras now. And I remember there was a big fire north of Escondido. And, uh, I think there were three or four photographers covering it. And we all came back, and we’re all dirty, and smoky, and smelly. I had even gotten a brush of the fire retardant, which is gooey and thick, orange all over. And this other fellow, Ernie Cowens, taking pictures for television and I saw the plane coming dropping a load and Ernie was facing away from it. And I said, “hey Ernie a load of fire retardant is coming in, you had better hide your camera.” He turned around to see what I had said, and it just covered his camera. His film camera, his movie camera. He had to rush down to San Diego to get it cleaned and fixed. It just landed—and it was heavy, heavy stuff. Anyway, we all came back, and we processed the film, and we were shooting color transparencies then. And I had shot maybe 10 rolls, 12 rolls of film. And each of my frames, the exposure was right-on. Dead-on exposure with the automatic. And I selected some frames that I liked and left it. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.000 Well, that was a new era, it marked a new era. 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah, yeah, the automatic. But that was taboo. See? You weren't supposed to do that, you were supposed to be a professional. You were supposed to take a reading. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 As the fire retardant is coming at you! 00:32:40.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Yeah, yeah exactly. Take a reading and adjust your camera and shoot. That was the professional way to do it. Me, I said, “I want to try this automatic thing.” And the camera was so dead on. The ten rolls of film, I bet the exposure was incorrect maybe in 5 or 10, 15 exposures. And I selected the prints that I wanted and by this point my shift was over. It was 5, 6 o clock and my shift had ended at 2:30. So I came home, took a shower and cleaned clothes and had dinner. The next morning the paper ran, and a bunch of my photographs were on it. A big spread, a color spread. But my boss, Will Corbin asked me into his office, he had all my slides on his desk. 'What did you do that the 'other ones didn't. He had all my strips of transparencies on his desk. He said 'Why are your exposures correct, and the other ones have blotching, over exposed, under exposed, missing…' And I told him. I said, “That shot was automatic, instead of manual.” He said, 'I have to talk to the other photographers, they are wasting a lot of film.' I don't know whether he did or not or if they took his advice or not but, uh. And I shot automatic from there on. I would just… I mean, why… I mean I would set the f-stop, or I would set the shutter speed and then the camera would compensate by... If I needed a huge depth of field, I would knock it down to F - 22 to F-16, if I wanted it to stop motion, I would set it at 4,000 per second. And the let the diaphragm take over. So, you didn't lose total control of the camera. And if I would shoot manual, I would shoot manual. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.000 And good god, you know, you’re at a wildfire in a Santa Ana. 00:34:39.000 --> 00:35:00.000 Right. You're not fiddling around with f-stops and shutter speed. But I see the photographers now, the professionals. They’ll take a picture and look at the image on the back of the camera. And I just kind of…. They have no idea what photography is. 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:17.000 Now we are at 35 minutes and that's generally where my transcribing load stops. But did you have anything else on the color? Now we can always add this in on the other tapes. 00:35:17.000 --> 00:38:21.000 No, the other thing, because I retired in 2000, at one point I kind of got burned out. I had been taking picture for, sheesh… 40 years. And my curiosity run out. My mojo had run out and I think my photography showed it. I was kind of burned out. And I think it was one of the bosses, Rich Peterson came to me and says, “You know, I’ve got…” Rich Peterson was approached by the advertising department. Because we were never allowed to take pictures for advertising. If editorial took pictures, advertising could never use them. If we took pictures of mug shots of politicians, and the politician liked the photo, they couldn't be used in their advertising. So, advertising apparently went to Rich Peterson and says, 'We want to hire one of your photographers to work for the advertising department, primarily - solely. And the photographs belong to us. So Rich Peterson had asked me if I would be interested in that. And at that time, they were changing the regime there and they were trying to mess with my schedule. My schedule had always been 7 to 2 -3 o'clock in the afternoon. I'm an early person. I wake up early, I work early, I function early. Later in the day, I'm wiped out. So, he asked me if I was interested in taking over the position as advertising photographer. He said, 'go talk to the advertising manager', and I did. I found out what the requirements were. They had reps and they would talk to the advertisers, and they would request photography. They would bring me…assign it to me. I worked my own hours. Whatever I wanted. I would call them and set my time. It was a cushy job. And it was a Monday through Friday, sometime Saturdays. I set my own hours. It wasn't what I had started out to do, but I finished my last two or three years doing that. And when I got sick in July of 2000, when I quit. That's what I was doing. And my last day at work, because I still had my equipment there in the dark room/studio/photo office. I went in 5:00 o'clock in the morning, picked up all my equipment and everything I owned, put it in a big box and hauled it out. I wrote a message to all the photographers of the North County Times, 'thank you for your help and friendship, good-bye, Dan Rios.' And I hung it on the door. Never went back to the building. Ever, to this day. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:22.000 They didn't throw a party? 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:23.000 They wanted to. 00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:24.000 You wouldn't let them. 00:38:24.000 --> 00:39:28.000 No. At that point there were so many people that I didn't know. So many new people in the management. So many people I had been friendly with, and a lot of the people that I had grown with over the years, had retired and left. So, there really was nobody. So, the personnel director, Peggy Chapman, called me and said, 'we are going to give you a party’ I said, 'no I don't want a party.' I felt hypocritical. She said, 'what can we do for you?' I said, 'you can buy me a lap top computer.' Because at that point I had gotten into computers. My stepson had bought me one, and we had bought another one and I thought a laptop might be nice. So, they send me $300 to buy me a laptop computer. This was the 2000s, but then computers then, laptops were 8-900 dollars. But it helped. I bought some other stuff, I didn't buy the laptop. I didn’t buy they laptop till way later. 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.000 Shall we stop here? 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.000 Yeah, sure. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.xml RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview May 9th, 2017 Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. As the Chief Photographer, Rios was instrumental in transitioning the North County Times from publishing images in black and white, to publishing in color. This interview recounts Rios's career working for the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times. Rios also recounts how photographers were initially required to buy and maintain their own equipment and how he was able to create a deal with the newspaper to compensate photographers fairly for their equipment. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC003-03 Subject The topic of the resource Digital cameras Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Mexican Americans Photographic chemicals Photojournalists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-09 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dan Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Rancho Penasquitos (Calif.) Rancho Bernardo (San Diego, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource in copyright Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC003: The Dan Rios papers Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Community history Latine experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amy Spackman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. San Diego brewing;women in brewing;Mission Brewing;brewing industry;craft brewing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. SC027-066 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm San Diego brewing ; women in brewing ; Mission Brewing ; brewing industry ; craft brewing Amy Spackman Judith Downie sound SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.mp3 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 Other audio Oral history Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:33.000 This is Judith Downie, oral historian for California State University, San Marcos, on February 23rd, 2017, collecting an oral interview from Amy Spackman of Mission Brewing, and she has signed the authorization documents and has been given a copy of the authorization, and we will now be starting the history. (Unintelligible) These are just some sample questions here. You definitely don't have to answer these questions. You can riff off in any direction that you want. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:29.000 Cool. All right. So, my name is Amy Spackman, I live in National City and yes, I am over twenty-one. Thankfully. All right. (Unintelligible). Okay, good. So pretty much how I got started working with beer, I taught preschool for seven years and got really burnt being in the field. It was something I was really passionate about before, and then it just wasn't really doing it for me any longer. And I didn't feel that it was something fulfilling. And I was looking at, you know, I'm in my early mid-twenties, what am I going to do to change that? I didn't want to become my dad that is counting down until Friday and when the weekend is and dreading that and bringing on that negativity so early on. So I decided to just quit, essentially. My director was really supportive of it. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:02:28.000 I told him, I said, this just isn't working out anymore, and I need to do something that's more authentic. And, it was an interesting couple of months of searching, honestly. I found out that coffee wasn't what I wanted to do. That wasn't a big enough passion. Even though it's a serious love, but beer was always something, and jokingly, the kids kind of drove me to drink beer all the time, and I was spending more and more time kind of nerding out on those things and collecting bottles with my husband. And it just dawned on me, why not try to work in beer? It’s San Diego, It's--why not? So, just kind of randomly set out some emails, and I was hoping, you know, am I gonna be taken seriously, I’m a teacher? What are they going to see as a value for me coming from preschool that's already viewed as a daycare. How is that going to apply into a brewery? So that was a really scary thing, honestly. I didn't know what was going to happen, if anything was going to happen, am I wasting my time? 00:02:28.000 --> 00:03:37.000 And then I got a response back from Twisted Manzanita in Santee, which bless their hearts at the time for bringing me on, for giving me the chance to jump over and seeing that as a teacher coming into beer, I had organization and things of the sort. And so I did some office work for them and then somehow just drifted into the tasting room, due to people not showing up for shifts and had no formal training whatsoever on anything. I didn't know how to change a keg. I didn't know how to, I hadn't worked cash register since my first job when I was in high school. I hadn't done any of these things and it was just, you were thrown out and the brewers really taught me everything. And I think that was one of the biggest things I loved about beer was that no one treated you like you were lesser because you didn't know. And it was always a learning opportunity, and ever since I started at that particular brewery, it was always something I was learning new every single day. And I thought that was the coolest thing that it was a community and that you were all in it together, even if the particular place wasn't the greatest. 00:03:37.000 --> 00:04:54.000 They've now since gone under, which is no surprise, but finding Mission was one of the best things because I had gone out into that job search again. I thought, oh God, you know, was this a reputable enough brewery? Am I gonna be able to get somewhere else? What am I going to do? And thankfully Mission just really just popped up, and it's extremely close to the house. And there were so many opportunities presented early on. I really connected with the staff right away, which was really cool to see such warmth. So now I do tours, which back to the teacher thing, you know, managing crowds, being organized, timely, things of the sort that was really helpful. And so that was nice to bring those skills over into that side. So I do tours here, I bartend, and I am also in charge of our merchandise. So that's been really fun to have a variance in the schedule and also be so close to the house and be with this--Mission (Brewery) I kind of consider it my extended family. I'm here all the time, all the time, and everyone is really sweet. And again, if I don't know something I'm not afraid to go ask another brewer or one of the supervisors of another department that I don't know something about, and they're more than happy to teach me. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:48.000 And I think that's the coolest thing, is again, that community furthered. It's a little daunting sometimes being, going from a woman-dominated field to the opposite. That was an interesting change being like I'm one of two, but here at Mission, we have so many. Our offices probably got five or six women that work in there. We've got three female bartenders, no female brewers at this point, but it's just really cool to have that element going on. And I think that's just really cool. But it, it can be kind of daunting to prove yourself that, you know, beer is a passion rather than the aesthetics behind the bar pouring a beer for somebody that doesn't quite understand that you know about beer. So that's why I've really been interested in continuing school. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:06:38.000 So I've been enrolled in the San Diego State (University) Business of Craft Beer program, finishing up my last class for the level one certification in May. And then I'm gonna take a break for baseball season, because that's a busy season for us and then go back probably in the fall to finish up my level two. And then I just judged my first beer competition, which was really scary and daunting at AleSmith (Brewing Company). And it was a really cool learning experience. I'm looking more into getting BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) certified and studying for my Cicerone test, hopefully in December to take that. So there's really no end all in my goal for where I want to go with beer, honestly. It's more, I like having my fingers in different pots ’cause it keeps it--there's variety, and I like that. I feel like you'd never know everything, and that's the coolest thing. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:07:28.000 I don't know anything about brewing. I'd be super excited to learn more about that. But yeah, the whole reason behind going to school is because it was something I was passionate about and because it was cool to finally learn something that was exciting. And again, you’d never know everything, and I've just wanted to get every beer book, read it all. I love obviously going out and drinking lots of beers at different places and every brewery has its own element. It's just a different family at each place, and I think that's the coolest, and for the most part, I feel like San Diego breweries are a big family and we all support each other in various ways, whether it's by sharing ingredients or sharing ideas, or just acknowledging that you do the same work. I think that's just the coolest thing. Um, yeah. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.000 How many years have you been here at Mission? 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Sunday will be my one year. So probably two years in beer now, coming up on two, which doesn't, it's really nothing. There's lots of people here that started real, way earlier on. So it's, it's been cool to jump into the school side of things to kind of make up for the lost time but it's been, it's been fun. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:08:25.000 And the involvement with the Pink Boots Society has been really exciting to collaborate with other women as well and learn about scholarship opportunities and network and support each other. I think that's a really fun organization. We just had a meeting last night, and it was, it was exciting. Big fan. It's neat to see the full circle of women coming back into beer, more in the spotlight from historical times to now that it's coming back around. And I think that's really cool. 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:35.000 Okay. So considering your, your educational process right now, it looks like you're planning on being in beer for a long time. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Yeah, I, I can't see myself leaving the industry honestly. It's not an option at this point. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:58.000 Well let me go back to Twisted Manzanita. Since you did work there for a little bit, did they have any women working there with brewers? I mean, since they're gone, it's kind of like, you know, to piece in a little bit of missing history here. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:51.000 There were no female brewers at Manzanita. There was a woman that ran the packaging line. Maybe one that volunteered once in a while on a very informal basis. And aside from our HR lady, that was really it. And one or two female bartenders, but they were just there to have a job. There was really no love kind of showing for beer. It was just more of a, uh, it was just definitely a job for them. And for me, I really liked to connect in with that early on with the customers being like, oh, well, what do you like to drink? Well, let me show you, let me teach you about this style. Let me show you that IPAs aren't scary. Let me show you that dark beers aren't scary. It was, it was cool. But yeah, Manzanita, there was no women there whatsoever. 00:09:51.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Let me think here for a minute, there was something on the tip, the tip of the skull and it's gone. Other than Pink Boots, do you see any formal or informal networking for the women in, in beer in San Diego? 00:10:14.000 --> 00:11:12.000 Pink Boots is kind of the main one. Um, I want to say, and I could be wrong on this. I know inside QUAFF (Quality Ale & Fermentation Society), the homebrewer society, I want to say there's one called Suds that's for women, but I haven't broken into the home brew community myself. So I'm, I'm really unsure on that, but that's something that I'd like to explore, but in order to brew, there's lots of there are home brew, um, there's lots of things that need to happen first. Like making space in our house and having an entire day off to make the beer for the first time. But I don't know if I'd ever want to open my own brewery, honestly. Once my husband gets out of the military, we're looking at, you know, making beer more frequently, ‘cause he'd have more time, but at the point of San Diego’s saturation with breweries, I don't know if I would be bold enough to believe that our short term home brewing would be good enough to open a place. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.000 So does, does your husband brew? 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:31.000 We are gonna, we have the beginnings of a, of a brew system, but we haven't done it yet. Um, it's ready to go just when both of us have the same day off and an eight-hour chunk of time, which, it's been awhile. 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:46.000 Oh yeah. Martin at Quantum (Brewing) invited me to come down ‘cause I met him and I said, I don’t really, I don’t understand the brewing process. What’s actually entailed. So he said, come on down one morning when I’m brewing. And I went down and I was just like, oh, this is a lot more than I thought. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:56.000 The homebrewing element, that’s a little scary. I can watch the guys do it all day, and I get the gist of it. But as far as making it actually happen in the kitchen, that's a little more frightening. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:08.000 It seemed like there was a lot of watching temperatures and a lot more carefulness to it than I would have thought because of just my lack of knowledge about the brewing process. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:42.000 Much more science oriented, much more math, which the two of those things are not my strong points. Which is why I'm letting everyone else brew. I’ll help you name a beer. I'll do more of the artsy side of things. But one of my favorite things, though, about brewing here, watching them at least, is coming in and the smell of the brewery. It's the most beautiful smell. Nothing bad can happen to you when that smell is going on. It's, it's just magical. Love that. That's my favorite. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:13:22.000 And then as far as any mentors, like I said, pretty much everybody in all different departments have, I mean, whether it's been at Manzanita or at Mission, everyone's been so great extending a hand or explaining what their positions are, like, how to overcome something that's challenging or encouraging you to continue on with school. There's, it's just kind of been a work of everybody. And I think that's really nice to be around, such a supportive, positive environment. And even on the worst day, it's beer at the end of the day. And just kinda reminds me to really appreciate what we're doing. 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 Okay. I remembered the question I had. You mentioned QUAFF and not breaking into that yet. So from your perspective, do you see not an adversarial position, but a division between QUAFF as a home brewer group and you know, the more professional, professionally-focused groups? 00:13:43.000 --> 00:14:07.000 I mean, there's definitely a lot of professionals are in QUAFF. I want to say, I think it's Jeff (Wiederkehr) from Burning Beard he's in that as well. So a lot of the pro brewers are in QUAFF as well, kind of supporting the people starting out in their kitchens and things of the sort. So again, all comes back to that support system. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Because I haven't reached out to QUAFF yet. I mean, I've seen, uh, Sheldon Kaplan's SUDS documentary (SUDS COUNTY, USA) where he relies a lot on QUAFF members. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Okay. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:15:20.000 Because that was done in 2000, I can't remember the exact date, but it was really kind of before a lot of the commercial breweries opened up. So he didn't have a huge body of those people to go to, although he did interview Peter (Zien) and Skip (Virgilio) and a lot of the other, the other originals, the long-termers, but he didn't, he didn't get to the newer people. And I'm, I will say I'm really thrilled to see the Mission name, because when I came to Pink Boots, and I talked about Katherine Zitt, poor woman, her unfortunate name, um, her husband did own Mission Brewing for a while. Interesting. And, of course, that was all pre-prohibition, but he did have San Diego Consolidated and Mission, he purchased later, but it was always with a group of investors. So he wasn't the solo owner, but you know, I'm like, “Oh good. You know, this ties back to Kate and you know, my pre-prohibition brewing.” 00:15:20.000 --> 00:16:10.000 It's really cool. Um, I've always been kind of a nerd for history, honestly. Um, I think it's just really cool, and being born and raised in San Diego, it's, it's really neat to be a part of one of the originals, um, and be able to explain that it's one of my, when I give our tours, that's one of my favorite parts to explain that to people, um, besides the brewing process, it's the history and how it came back. And, um, it's just cool that it's, it's still in existence. And, um, every customer has been just in awe that the name’s, you know, been revived and the building is really cool. Everyone thinks that's where we are over off of Washington. We're not. And it's cool to say we haven't been in that space since 1919 ‘cause prohibition. And, um, it's just really cool. It's, it's neat that both these buildings are still standing, um, and haven't been smushed over for condos or a stadium— 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:32.000 It would be wonderful if Mission could get back to the original building. That would be really, really cool because so many of our buildings are gone. It's, it's real sad. And so for me, as a historian, to see things like that gone, I get real, there's goes another piece of our history. Now, have you looked at the BEERology exhibit at the Museum of Man? What did you think of that? 00:16:32.000 --> 00:17:51.000 Yeah. Um, I thought it was a little small, um, but small is not always bad. Uh, I felt like there was a lot of things that kind of were left out. I mean, especially could have been more of an ode to modern day, um, beer and, um, I just, I feel like it could have been a lot more, uh, female centered for sure. Um, it was just, it was, it was a neat exhibit. I think it's really a, it's a really good start. Um, I feel like there's a lot more to go and always things to add, um, especially for how long beer has been around and how many, I mean, I, I feel like it did a really good job showcasing the different cultural varieties of traditional beers, but there's a lot more that could have been added to that, and beer’s everywhere, um, on, in all different countries. And, and I feel like it kind of only focused on, um, more Latin America and their influence in making beer. I would've liked to see more European influence of, you know, the alewives and things. Um, and yeah, again, more, more modern acknowledgements to San Diego’s roots, since it is featured at a San Diego museum. 00:17:51.000 --> 00:18:52.000 Have you ever been to the San Diego History Center and looked at their (exhibit) ‘cause they actually did an exhibit in 2013 on craft beer, or beer brewing, in San Diego. Their remnants of the online exhibit are still up there. Cool. But I've actually been into the materials because Jane Connelly, the archivist there has kind of kept everything. Those are the materials I've been mining for information about the women in San Diego beer, because there's really not much of anything else. And in the San Diego History Journal, which is available for free online, um, Ernie Liwag has written a couple of articles. The second one was really kind of a recap of his first, but it did have a little bit more information, but it's interesting because he doesn't mention women. It's just, you know, he does talk about Mission. He does talk about, you know, brewing and the effect of prohibition and stuff, but, uh, yeah, it's uh, so that's, that's real fun to, to mine that for interesting things. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:20:24.000 And then of course that's part of what we want to do with the Brewchive is save the history of what's going on in San Diego brewing and North County, including North County working with the San Diego region. But of course, with my focus on women's history, I'm like, you know, “I got to get the women,” because right now with what I'm running across with Kate is she's almost never mentioned anywhere. And she's not mentioned really in connection with San Diego Consolidated Brewing, except for once or twice in the newspaper when J. Henry her husband would be mentioned. And then, yeah. And, or, and of course he was always Mrs. J H Zitt in all the society pages and stuff, but what little prison she even had there. But I was looking to see, um, if there was any reaction to prohibition or to the temperance movement or anything, because as a woman, she would have been in women's groups. She was very active evidently in the floral society. And she's going to be running into women who are not going to approve of her husband's source of income, and the died childless. So probably any papers they had are gone. Yeah. I'm kind of hitting a brick wall on developing anymore about her, but it's been real interesting because absence says so much as well as presence. Yeah. So, yeah, but I'm just determined to not let our women now escape from us, you know that's, that's gotta be recorded. 00:20:24.000 --> 00:21:25.000 That's really cool. Uh, like one other thing I thought of, um, is with that career change, going from preschool to beer, um, it was really hard convincing some of the older members of my family, um, that it's a reputable industry, that it is really such a big impact in San Diego, that San Diego is very notable for their beer. Um, the west coast in general is notable for their beer, and I'm not going into a career that's just willy nilly. I'm not partying all the time, though that happens. Uh, it's trying to show those that wonder why you would abandon something reputable, as teaching, and go off into this. Um, that's been kind of a struggle to show that. So I think that's kind of my push for so much extra school, um, is to show the people that just assume, “Oh, you're, you know, you just haven't figured it out yet. You're just doing a job like this to tide you over, and you're just pouring beer,” and it's, it's bigger than that. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:22:11.000 And I think that's a really interesting point to bring up is the family support and the, the exterior perception of what the beer, the beer industry is like, the beer community is like, and you, especially as a woman in this beer situation. So thank you for bringing that up because that is not something I would have thought about. Um, so that brings me another question that I can add to my list. You know, what, what is your family or, you know, what kind of, not just your in-the-industry mentors, but what kind of support or reaction have you gotten from those around you that you love and interact with outside of the beer? 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:55.000 I feel like now it's, um, now that it's been a while and they see how much school has gone through and, um, all the resources when they come over, I've got books all over the coffee table. I think they respect it a lot more now. And it's, it's been really cool to bring in family, um, to show them the facility and, and explain, uh, veer a little more in depth, or to bring a beer out to my parents, they typically don't drink beer, or if they do it's, it's not that stellar. Um, it's, it's been really fun to introduce them to that. And I think people get it now. Um, and I think they see that it really lights me up, and I'm just really into it. Um, so that's been, that's always exciting. So anytime I get a chance to show something new at, the brewery, I'm like, “Oh good.” 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:43.000 You know, or “I can teach you about this beer. I can invite you to a bottle share at our house,” um, which we love to host. Uh, we have so many beers that we cellar, uh, we're needing a second and maybe a third refrigerator, um, ‘cause we have so many. And it's just fun to share that with people or, um, when super like, “oh, it's beer’s gross,” or “I don't like beer.” That's my favorite person to talk to. It's like, “Well, do you like coffee? Do you like chocolate? Then you'll probably like a stout.” And finding the parallels between food and beer has been cool. Um, it's made me want to start cooking, which that's amazing and cooking with beers is really fun. Um, it's, it's cool to find a really neat, uh, like smoked Schwarzbier and marinate a tri tip in it and then make that. 00:23:43.000 --> 00:25:05.000 And my husband's like, “Wow, when did this happen?” And like, it's weird. Um, it motivates me to do things. Um, but, uh, one other thing I think is cool is that, um, the breweries are expanding down into South Bay. Um, we recently purchased a house about like four years ago and being in National City in an area that was kind of a beer free zone, it's really neat to see breweries start to creep down in there. Um, Machete Alehouse (Beer House) is I think it's Ale House is the rest of their name. Um, but it's a husband and wife that own it. And she's the sweetest she's always really, um, great, um, always really welcoming of women coming in. And it's so neat to see it pushing into South Bay into communities, like you said, that don't necessarily, um, reach out for craft beer. Um, that a lot of the, my neighbors, you know, to their bits kind of go into the liquor store, and they'll buy like a forty pack of Natty Ice for $4, when they wonder, “Why would you spend eight bucks on a 22 ounce of beer?” Um, and it's, it's cool to expose them to that, um, and be like, “Hey, this is, you know, this is an offering at your liquor store next to you, try this out” And then, you know, maybe they'll get into the community more as well and kind of find some advancement. But it's, it's great to see it pushing into National City now. 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Do you think National City is, um, because of the economic basis or was National City just not legislated for breweries? I know that's something that winds up having to be done in every single city. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:46.000 I know Chula Vista was a lot more welcoming to the breweries coming in, um, National City with it. Um, when I was a kid, there was lots of crime. Um, it's slowly kind of fading out now. So I don't, I, it could be a factor of that. Um, of seeing breweries is more of an invitation for those activities to go on. But, um, it could be a city thing. It could be, I don’t know. 00:25:46.000 --> 00:26:45.000 I mean, I can see a business person looking at that saying, you know, looking at the demographics, looking at the income level, looking at the legis—the rules and regs that the city has passed, you know. Is it a welcoming climate or not? Because you know, up in North County, I've been watching Indian Joe, I drive past Indian Joe every single day. And he's had his Coming Soon sign up now for a year? Or better? And, you know, and yet other breweries in Vista have seem to be opening up. So it's like, is it just he's had problems or is just, uh, did these other breweries that opened up--have they been in the process as long, but just not as visible as a big, giant sign on a building right next to Highway 78? Yeah. So I actually, one of our faculty members knows, um, the owner, and she goes, “Oh, and as soon as he's opened, you know, we'll go there and have a beer,” and I'm thinking, “Great, ‘cause I would love to pick his brain and see what's going on. 00:26:45.000 --> 00:28:35.000 But I know that Vista was very welcoming to a winery that was in Oceanside and then they moved into Vista and then they kind of collapsed and fell apart through no fault of the cities. But they did struggle a little bit with getting it there, even though Vista was supporting them to move in. It was like once they started trying to actually go through the process, it wasn't all that simple. And so, and I know the SUDS documentary there is mentioned in there. I think it was Skip Virgilio. But I'm not, I could be wrong, was saying how, when he went to get licenses or no, it was Chris Kramer of Karl Strauss. He said, “When we went to get licensed, you know, the city didn't know what to do with us. And we said well, what's Alpine doing or whoever it was?” And they didn't know that because nobody had ever gone to get a license. And so that kind of showed that, and of course, Chris didn't mean to expose somebody else, but he just said, “Well, you've got one open. Why can't we do the same model?” It turned out there was no model because the others hadn’t followed the process. So yeah, the legislation and all that is always real tricky and something of interest to me because I also, um, we're a government documents depository, so I kind of like that whole legal issue thing and the constraints that our government puts on us many times probably for our own good, but in other ways it really stifles things. But then, um, there was another question I had. Generally with an oral history, I'm just supposed to let you talk, but it's like, okay. You know, questions are coming up. And I can certainly ask and, um, oh, the Cicerone. Tell me about that process please. 00:28:35.000 --> 00:30:56.000 Oh man. So I believe the, uh, well, the whole process of Cicerone in the beginning is the certified beer server, which, um, a lot of breweries require you to have. Manzanita was encouraging and paid for it. Um, all of the $80 that it was. Um, but it was just general beer keeping, um, basic stuff. Um, I feel like that should be a requirement for all servers to know, um, which most places will require it, but I think it's just great knowledge. Um, so that's the level one. It's a recognized level and it's kind of not um, and then the next level is Certified Cicerone, and that's when you can officially call yourself a Cicerone. Um, once you pass that test, it's about 400 bucks and I believe there's a written component, a tasting, and a practical. Uh, one of our girls here just took her test, um, for the second time, and, um, it's a lot of studying independently. Um, you have to learn about hop flavors. Um, there's a syllabus outlined online, about what is, could possibly be on the test. Um, but it's really intense. I have had a couple of friends take it, uh, mixed, mixed reviews on how they did. Um, but, and then the next level is advanced Cicerone, I believe, uh, which is cool. One of my, uh, girlfriends, uh, over at Modern Times, she's the only Advanced Cicerone in southern California as a female, uh, which I think is really cool. Um, and then up from there is Master, and that's the highest level that you can go. So a Cicerone is kind of the equivalent of a Som (sommelier) for beer world. Um, but, uh, yeah, that's definitely something I want to, to go with. Uh, just studying independently sometimes goes better than expected or not expected. Um, all, I think I'm going to try to take it once I get out of the SDSU program. Um, so I feel like I'll have a, at least a general gist to refer back on to supplement any extra readings I've done. Um, cause I'll remember it back from a class. So that's kinda what I'm waiting for, but yeah, Cicerone is definitely something that's in the sights for sure. Um, and once I attain Cicerone, I'd be interested in going on to the other levels as well, because like I said, you never know everything, and there's so much about beer, there there's so many different avenues that you can go down and, um, you just you'll never know it all. And that's the coolest thing. 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:35.000 And then you also mentioned, you know, cooking with beer and things like that. Um, something I've seen that I find very interesting is the, um, the tie of food trucks to tasting rooms and breweries. I mean, I realize it's a symbiotic relationship and the fact that the food trucks have to go get that health license because that's a whole different thing than what the breweries have to do. But, um, do you see that continuing, do you think that maybe it's more breweries are going to be going into opening their own eating establishments? 00:31:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000 Um, I mean, I know for us, everyone assumes because we're so large that we have a kitchen and there's also The Mission around the corner that serves the pancakes that everyone confuses us with. Um, and I have to explain to the customers, no, we're not the pancake place that's around the corner. Um, were the breweries having food trucks, a lot of it's, uh, licensing, um, that they can have a kitchen or there's not enough space. And it already is so costly to open a facility that extra kitchen staff and, um, again, all the regulations for health codes that would add a burden to people. Uh, so I think it's really cool to have the variety of food trucks and again, um, extend the community of support to, you know, expose another local business, to help out and partner up. Um, and also for the safety of the customer as being able to eat some food after they've had a few drinks and, um, hopefully manage themselves safely and accordingly. Um, it's always cool when there is a food truck at a brewery and you didn't expect it, or it's one of your favorite ones and you’re hanging out at the breweries a lot, you really get to know the owners of the food trucks and it's, it's kind of a fun relationship to follow them and support their journey as well. 00:32:45.000 --> 00:33:04.000 Yeah, I've noticed on some of the websites, they'll actually have the schedule of which food trucks are coming, and they'll actually say, “We're going to be brewing this, which we'll go with the food on that truck that day,” which I think is really wonderful. I've also met, um, I've talked to Johna (Richards) and met Tony of So Rich chocolates. Oh yeah. That chocolate. Oh my gosh. 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:10.000 They’re my favorite chocolatier ever. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:25.000 Oh, I had to email them cause I, I was at the Craft Beer Expo in Sacramento and I did, um, Dr. Bill's wine—or beer and chocolate tasting at 9:00 AM on a Saturday morning. And I was just like, “Really 9:00 a.m. beer.” 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.000 Sounds perfect to me. Sounds a little late for me, honestly. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:34:17.000 Then you mentioned, you know, that they were in Vista and I was like, perfect. So, yeah. And I find that interesting that they've tied themselves and it's actually, it's funny because now that I think about it several years ago, um, I knit, and Thursday nights to get together with my knitting group. And there was one woman in there whose daughter was making cupcakes with beer and taking them in to a brewery up in North County. I won't say who, because that was probably highly illegal because it was just, you know, home baked beer-infused cupcakes, and everybody was just raving about them and stuff. And I know her daughter didn't continue to pursue that line, but I was like that, you know, that certainly seems like something that you could do because up here, all these breweries popping up, you know, you can start doing, you know, baked goods with beer. 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:58.000 I love, uh, making, uh, the stout cupcakes. And again, back to I'd rather bake than cook. Um, but I was choosing a different beer every time I made it to see how it tasted and how it changed it. And then obviously keeping a beer for myself ‘cause I was realizing I was shorting the recipe because I was drinking it in the process of convincing myself to bake. Um, but that's fun, but I mean I'll bake, uh, treats with beer from the brewery and bring it to, um, the employees. Um, just as a thank you for all the kindness and yeah, Fall (Brewing Company?) has been requesting some more cookies from me. Um, I just heard from them last night. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:36:00.000 But yeah, actually, um, for one I also hike and one Friday, if we hike on Friday nights, we wind up at one of the local breweries. We were at Rip Current or whatever. And I brought chocolate cupcakes with chocolate coffee frosting, and everybody was raving about how good they were with the beer. And I had not even thought about it. It was just like, yeah, we want to celebrate Ken's birthday, and I'll bring him some cupcakes because he's a single older man that I know doesn’t bake, you know, and I just wanted to do something besides chocolate, although chocolate is always good. So I threw the coffee, instant coffee in there, and it was just perfect with the beers that they were drinking. I'm a very lightweight beer drinker. I don't, I think it's something that you have to work yourself up to. And when I was in Sacramento, um, I did get introduced to fruits sours, which were, you know, I was like, "Oh, okay. I can, I can do this.” It's not real overly coffee flavored or burnt flavored or hoppy or anything like that. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:11.000 Sours are kind of my final frontier of, of beer. Um, my first love was stouts because I drank an obscene amount of coffee because of the preschool. Um, and that was just, I could— 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:15.000 That seems like a real parallel level of a strength. 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:59.000 Definitely. Um, and I could, I mean, I just, I love stouts. Um, I can drink a stout when it's a hundred degrees in July, and it's just what my most favorite style. I always default to it if I can't figure out what I want on the board and that's what I go for. Um, and then IPAs were a slow venture in, um, and with working in beer, presenting beer to new people that don't drink it all the time or they're intimidated by it. Um, I thought in order to like craft beer in the beginning that you had to love IPAs and the friends of mine that were presenting these beers to me, they were so aggressive and so intense that looking at, if I were to give that same beer to somebody new, there'd be no way. Um, and I think that's why I shunned IPAs until I finally zeroed in on what are my favorite hops? 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Um, why do I like this? Can I drink more than just a sip or two of this beer? And thus it went forward, but sours, I'm still trying to keep an open mind on, um, uh, try not to shut out. It's a slow process, but, um, yeah. And then the beer and cheese, that changed my life. Um, I thought I didn't like cheese until I had it with beer at Dr. Bill's class and now I go into a fromagerie, and I just, I spend all kinds of money and it's not so much that I'm pairing up the beers with the cheeses, but it just complements it so well. And, uh, we led, uh, or I led a beer and cheese pairing here with Smallgoods from La Jolla, it's husband and wife who own it. And that was really fun to see the parallels between beer and cheese and explain that to and make it accessible. And why is this beer grade? And, um, she was able to bring the cheese side of things, which I'm still lost on, but, um, it's opened up a box for me. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:17.000 It sounds almost like you could very easily find yourself in, again, kind of going back to your educational background, into tastings and marketing and you know, a more formalized education environment with beers, you know, kind of like what Dr. Bill or, you know— 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:42.000 Yeah. I would love to teach. Um, I'm back when I was with the preschool, I always thought about teaching a children's literature class someday, um, just for fun. And, uh, once I get way more school to be considered anything reputable, um, I'd be interested in maybe doing something like that, even if it was just a community college level or just a workshop that, you know, we offered here. I think that'd be fun. 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Children’s books and beer. 00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:57.000 Um, I, yoga is a hobby of mine and, um, as I'm teaching my girlfriends, I say that you can either pay me in beer or you can enter a competition. And if it's a beer that I haven't had, you get an extra entry credit. Um, but I'm, I call myself the Craft Yogi and, uh, it's just the whole thing is we do yoga and then we will get a beer afterwards, which seems to be, um, I know there's lots of other females running the same kind of thing with the hobby yoga, and can't think of any other ones, but we just hosted one the other evening, but it's, it's great. Anything you can do to get women to drink beer. Um, so I feel like it's also a stigma of women don't drink beer. And if you are the only girl that orders a beer out with your girlfriends, everyone looks at you and I'm just used to it now, honestly. Um, and used to their, their faces of distaste when they try it and they can drink their fruity cocktails and their white Zin with ice cubes in it, um, I’ll just go ahead and drink my, my beers and be happy with that. Um it's but yeah, I've, I feel like it is a stigma for beer-drinking women, but I'm into it. Those are the kinds of ladies I want to know. 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:04.000 You're breaking the barriers. The stereotypes have got to come down at some point. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:41:01.000 Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And I, I think too, um, with that it's, I mean, I've at this point in my life, maybe because of the teaching, I have no desire to have kids, um, because I spent so long with other people's kids, but I also feel like that's something that would be, um, an obstacle to overcome being a female in the beer industry is it's kind of frowned upon. I feel like, uh, as a girlfriend of mine was, uh, pregnant when she was bartending at a spot here in San Diego and, as she, her belly was getting larger, people were kind of looking at her like, “Oh, you're the pregnant bartender,” like. “That's classy.” And so there's a whole stigma with that too, of how people view you and is, is that appropriate and all this crap. And I just don't want to deal with that, honestly. Um, but I, I feel like one, I couldn't give up beer for that long do this is I don't want to take a break, um, on a career that's like finally getting going that to pause and have a family. That's, that's not quite my interest. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:41.000 Well, you sound confident. That's what matters. Yeah, no, um, no, I, I can see the, the, the impression people might have of a pregnant woman working around alcohol. That, that right there, because we've spent so many years talking about fetal alcohol syndrome and everything else. And then, you know, unfortunately there is still the, the low-class cache about for a lot of people, even though when they come into someplace like this and, you know, it's like, “Get over it.” 00:41:41.000 --> 00:42:08.000 Definitely. Um, or I mean, stigmas of even bringing kids to a brewery. Uh, I think even though I, I don't necessarily want children as part of my family at this particular moment in my life. Um, I think it's, you can't shun out the rest of the community that, you know, they're, they like beer just as much as they did before they had kids and you need to offer an environment for the families to come and, um, make alcohol kind of less of a, uh, I mean— 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Almost elicit. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:41.000 Um, I, I look at European countries, and it's, it's so accepted. Um, and it's, if you make it a big thing, it's gonna to be a big thing. And I feel like if children are responsibly, you know, can see their parents responsibly enjoying, um, a beverage at dinner or something in the store. Um, they're going to have a, a less kind of inclination to go crazy when they get older. Um, because it's, it's just treated as something normal. And, um, I feel like a lot of the breweries that shun out the kids. Um— 00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:48.000 Well, are there any, uh, regulations against children being in a tasting room or a brewery? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:55.000 I know if you obviously have a full, um, liquor license, then you can't, um, there's a bar nearby that had an encounter with a family that didn't understand that, that you can't have babies around hard alcohol, um, at that particular place, um, some places will say, you know, after eight, you can't have any minors. Um, which I think is responsible. Cause adults still need their place to go and get away from kids. Um, there's one right now, but, um, yeah, I, I think there's a time and a place to bring the kids to brew, but I feel like it also needs to be a welcoming environment at the same time and not make the parents feel like they did something wrong because they came in to fill a growler and happened to have a baby on their arm. ‘Cause they're taking it to go. And it just, I don't know, but I feel like that's more of an individual brewery basis on their decision. Um here at Mission we're dog and kid friendly, um, over and beyond, we've got coloring pages for kids and games and um, we host lots of dog events here. It's they're all part of your family. So. 00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000 You need cat events. 00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:01.000 Bring them in. That’d be cool. 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:40.000 Oh yeah, she'd be real happy about that. She's a cranky old lady, but uh, oh, this has been great, Amy, you have, well, I mean, just your own personal story and then the things you've had to say about how you see your role as a woman, your place as a woman in the brewing industry. That's exactly the sort of thing I want to record. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; &#13 ;  &#13 ; &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Amy Spackman License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ryan Willis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Wyland OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. American politics;California government;State Assembly;California Senate;Oral history in classrooms OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 SC027-38 02:30:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation and was created as part of the CSUSM University Library and History Department Internship in Oral History. csusm Politics and government -- 20th century ; Politics and government -- 21st century ; School boards -- California -- Escondido ; Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido ; California. Legislature. Assembly ; California. Legislature. Senate ; International relations ; Bills, Legislative ; Legislation -- California ; Oral history American politics ; California government ; State Assembly ; California Senate ; Oral history in classrooms Mark Wyland Ryan Willis .wav WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/064306702b5e232aff51531efbfa8101.wav Other audio English 0 Family history / Upbringing / Early career Mark Wyland begins the interview by discussing his family history. His maternal grandparents had moved to San Diego in 1925 and his grandfather was an Escondido city councilman and a supervisor for North County. His grandfather, father, and uncle also began a lumber and building materials business, which is still in operation today. Wyland also explains that he grew up in Escondido and attended Escondido High School. After high school, he attended Pomona College and studied International Relations. He further explains how he later worked for the City of New York on school construction while in graduate school before returning home to join the family lumber and plywood business. He adds that he stayed with the family business for twenty years. San Diego (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; New York (NY) ; lumber and plywood business ; family business ; Ponoma College ; International Relations 0 347 The teachers who inspired Wyland Mark Wyland recounts the teachers in his life who made an impact on his upbringing. He credits many teachers from his childhood and teenage years, such as his fourth grade and eighth grade teachers, Mrs. Stevens and Mrs. Von Bergen, as well as his German teacher, Bob Maywald. Wyland later studied abroad in Germany due to his positive experience in Maywald’s class. He also credits his high school speech teacher, Cliff Summerall, for inviting him to join the debate team and sparking his interest in politics. He also briefly discusses joining the family business and the importance of solving problems in a competitive market. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School ; Teachers ; Fourth grade ; Eighth grade ; High school ; Study abroad programs ; Debate teams ; Family business 0 842 Managing the family business Mark Wyland reflects on how running the family business shaped him as a person. He explains how being involved in the decision-making of the business made him realize that he was analytical and wanted to solve problems, which would be later prove beneficial to him when he entered politics. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; Lumber and plywood business ; Family business ; Problem solving ; Politics 0 1058 Semester abroad program in Germany Wyland recounts his semester abroad program in Germany when he was an undergraduate student at Pomona College. Wyland explains that he lived with a family for a month in the small town of Nördlingen. He lived with a family consisting of a husband and wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter, who was also a university student. He discusses the history of his host family, explaining how they had lived through World War I and had opposed Hitler. He then explains that he later was awarded a Fulbright scholarship to Germany after graduating with his Bachelor’s degree and spent a year there studying Germany policy. He reflects that both of these experiences in Germany, as well as the politics surrounding the Vietnam War, influenced his decision to enter into politics. Germany ; Nördlingen ; Study abroad programs ; Ponoma College ; Host family ; World War I ; Hitler ; Nazi Germany ; Vietnam War ; Politics ; Decision to enter politics 0 1683 School board race Mark Wyland explores his time running for the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. Wyland describes the experience as “brutal” and “contentious.” He discusses incidents that happened during his time on the school board, such as a large portion of the board organizing to remove a Hispanic superintendent. He also describes campaigning to implement English education for Hispanic students in classroom curriculums during his first school board race. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School board race ; School board ; School board politics ; Board of Education ; Escondido Union School Board ; English education curriculums ; Hispanic population 0 2124 California State Assembly race Mark Wyland discusses his time running for the California State Assembly in 2000. He reflects that the race was far more political than he had originally anticipated. Wyland describes a conflict during the race between himself and the then-assemblyman. Wyland explains that the then-assemblyman did not agree with Wyland’s previous Democratic politics and had raised money for lobbyists to go against Wyland. California State Assembly ; Politics ; Political campaign ; Primary election ; Democrats ; Republicans ; Lobbyists 0 2542 Becoming California Senator Mark Wyland discusses his time as California Senator. Wyland represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Wyland reflects on his early start in the Senate and how he had an interest in education reform. He also learned early on in his career that the state government is organized similar to Congress in terms of its parties, caucuses, committees, and the floor. He also explores how he found government to be much more partisan than he originally expected. He also contemplates the topic of term limits, explains the difference between state and federal laws, and discusses politicians who had abused their power. Politics ; California State Senate ; California Senator ; District 38 ; Education reform ; Organization of state government ; Partisan government ; Term limits ; State and federal laws 0 3297 The U.S. educational system Mark Wyland discusses the educational system in the United States, with an emphasis on the importance on vocational schools. He first explains the history of vocational schools, beginning with skilled apprenticeships during the Middle Ages. He also reflects on the disadvantages of the dismantling of vocational schools in the U.S., including the loss of students learning practical skills, the demoralizing of students’ drive for learning, and the increase in student loan debt. School ; Educational system ; Educational system in the U.S. ; Vocational schools ; Apprenticeships 0 4333 What makes Wyland a unique Senator Mark Wyland responds to a quote from Senator Darrell Steinberg, who referred to Wyland as a “Republican romantic.” Wyland explains that he has a great deal of respect for Steinberg and finds the quote to be flattering. Wyland also discusses the difficulty of making progress in politics and the public educating themselves in governmental matters. Politics ; Senator Darrell Steinberg ; Republicans ; Making progress in politics 0 4569 Goals as a politician Mark Wyland first reflects on the general public’s view on politics. He believes that the public does not understand politics the way they should and that many do not make informed decisions when voting. Wyland explains that it is important for the public to be critical of their government, and he provides an example of the importance of being critical of governmental spending. He also states that his goal as a politician is to provide better quality government and to help the people in becoming better informed citizens. He also states his concern over the media’s biased coverage of political matters. Politics ; Goals as a politician ; General public's view on politics ; Making informed voting decisions ; Being critical of government spending ; Media's biased coverage of politics ; Newspapers 0 5771 Objectivity in politics Mark Wyland discusses objectivity in politics. He views objectivity as an ideology, which he perceives as problematic because he believes it is too rigid of a view. Wyland explains that in his opinion, political knowledge and discussion should be more pragmatic. He also states that it is important to understand life’s complex problems and to use our power to solve them. Wyland also reflects on the importance of humility and on society coming together and respecting one another’s point-of-view. Politics ; Objectivity ; Objectivity in politics 0 6484 San Diego energy bills Mark Wyland discusses a few of the energy-related bills that he wrote. Wyland explains that one of these bills was in response to the blackout crisis of 2000 and SDG&amp ; E’s increased price of natural gas. The bill was eventually vetoed by Gray Davis. San Diego (Calif.) ; Energy bills ; Blackouts ; Blackout crisis ; SDG&amp ; E ; Public Utilities Commission ; Municipal Utility District ; Natural gas ; Gray Davis ; Politics 0 7050 Promoting oral history/ Oral history bills Mark Wyland discusses his efforts in promoting oral history in classroom curriculums. He first explains how he learned to appreciate oral history learning through his own grandfather and the grandfather from his host family in Germany and their talent for storytelling. Wyland also discusses the bills that he wrote to emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. These bills include creating curriculums that would incorporate oral history testimonies involving World War II, the Korea and Vietnam Wars, and the history of genocide. Oral history ; History ; Politics ; Classroom curriculums ; Oral history bills ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; The history of Genocide 0 8078 Romanticizing history/ Closing of interview Mark Wyland discusses the issue of romanticizing history in the classroom and in American society. Wyland uses the change over time in how Indigenous and Mexican history are taught in classrooms as examples. Wyland closes the interview by stating that politicians could not do their jobs without the help and support of the public. He adds that the American people deserve to feel good about who they vote into office, even if they do not agree with every decision that they make. History ; Romanticizing history ; Indigenous history ; Mexican history ; Classroom curriculums ; Politics ; Relationship between politicians and voters 0 Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree &amp ; Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing former California Senator Mark Wyland for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History project. Today is Monday, April 10th, 2023. The time is 2:32 PM and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Mr. Wyland, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.000 You're very welcome, Ryan. Please call me Mark. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:55.000 You got it, Mark. Appreciate that (both laugh). So obviously you have a very rich and impressive resume when it comes to education and politics, so definitely going to get into all of that during this interview. But I want to start off by asking you about your upbringing and your family background. Because I definitely believe that's important to bring up. First off, when and where were you born? 00:00:55.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Well, I was actually born in San Diego at Mercy Hospital, which is still there. It's part of the Scripps Network now. And Escondido at the time, I'm not sure it really had a full-service hospital, but I grew up in Escondido. My maternal grandparents had moved there in 1925 and they had a business, a plumbing business. And after the war, meaning World War II, my maternal grandfather, Brian Sweet, who had been an Escondido city councilman and also a supervisor for North County, he started a business with my dad and my uncle, and it was a lumber and building material supply business, pine tree lumber. It still exists. It's not in our family, but based in Escondido. And so, I grew up there, went to Escondido High School. When here we are in San Marcos--San Marcos didn't have a high school (laughs). 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Right. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:05:25.000 They went to Escondido. And then I went to college in Pomona College, which is in Claremont, California, where they have a group of colleges, the Claremont Colleges. I got interested in--studied International Relations, which is foreign affairs. I spent a year after college on a grant in Germany. And then I was in graduate school in New York studying to be a professor of international affairs. But I'd gone straight through and I, you know, it was kind of a time as a young man where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I'm not a city guy. I hated New York (laughs) because I grew up in rural Escondido, basically in an avocado grove. And so, I ended up--I got a lot out of that program--but I ended up working for the university. And then I worked for the City of New York on school construction of all things. And I was very close to my grandfather, and he wanted me to come back and join the family business. I thought I would never do that. But he had had a stroke and I was very close to him, and I was sick of New York, and I thought, “Well, I'll just interrupt the program.” You know, I can always go back, and something that was important and played out later: I wrote a master's thesis on a topic that really interested me. Basically, it was how people see the world, their worldview. And so I came back, I thought it would be here a year, and I ended up staying. And this was a business I'd worked in summers as a kid, and I'd done every job, you know, manual labor, loading lumber, driving forklifts, driving trucks. I'd done all that. And I ended up doing that for, my gosh, almost twenty years. And that also had a big impact on learning how to solve problems. And my dad, who's extraordinary, I learned a great deal from him--unfortunately, passed away fairly young, but I always had this interest in what we might call “public policy.” And I always had this interest in schools. And I had tried early on in that job, they had an opening on the high school board, not an election-appointed one. I tried to get that. I didn't get that (laugh). 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000 Right. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:12:11.000 And so, it turned out there was another opening on the Escondido Union Board, which is K-8. And I applied for that and got it. And the rest is history. And we can talk about that. And I know we have questions. I would like a shout out though to a few Escondido teachers who really made a big difference. And first, my fourth-grade teacher. Believe it or not, I lived in old, it was in town then--Central School. Mrs. Stevens, who told stories about when she was living in Mexico City and married to her husband who's Mexican. Really interesting stories. And I thought, you know, that's a different culture, and that's pretty interesting. And then I had this wonderful eighth grade teacher for social studies, Mrs. Von Bergen. It didn't hurt that I had a crush on her (Willis laughs). Oh my gosh. And in eighth grade in California, you spend a lot of time on the Civil War. And again, she really piqued my curiosity because I remember learning that it wasn't just simple. It was more complicated between the North or the South. And we actually--that was the first time I had to write a term paper, which I found later, I still have. And it's, you know, it's not very well done, but it's eighth grade (Willis laughs). And I realized between what I was trying to write was--this is really interesting: the North was industrialized and the South was agricultural, and there are all these other cross currents. And then when I was a sophomore in high school, the speech teacher, Clifford Summerall, he was invited to go into a class where students were giving oral reports, and I gave one. And I was pretty good at that. So, he asked me to join their debate team, and they had tournaments. And these are national. And all kinds of speaking ; humorous speeches. I've forgotten the categories. And they had a national topic, which I don't think they do that anymore. They still have speech, but it tends to be more impromptu where you learn about a whole bunch of things and they say, what do you think about--whatever it might be? And that era was a national topic, and the topic that first--yeah, I was fifteen, a sophomore, right, was “Should we strengthen NATO?” Well, that was sixty years ago, (Willis laughs), and it's as current today as it was then. And what made it--why it had such a big impact was they gave you the materials and you had the same topic for the whole year. So, while my friends are--and I don't mean to diminish this, you have to do it, but it's, you know, they're reading chapter eight and answering the questions and the tests on Friday kind of thing--I'm learning about post-World War II and the Soviet Union and their march and to those eastern European states, all this really adult stuff. And because at a tournament, they would assign you different sides--you're for or against--so you really had to learn about the issue. And what fascinated me was: it's not that simple. There are arguments for it and against it, and you don't know for sure how it's going to work out. A lot of the people doing debate, you could tell were going to be future lawyers. You know, I had my kind of sport coat and a tie, and I had to laugh in retrospect, some of them would, you know, their kids would come in like these dark, you know, suits, and they would try all these tricks. It was about winning. But for me it was like, “What's the answer?” And then the next year, the question was, “Should we increase federal aid to education?” Again, it's as current today as it was then. And so you had to look at a lot of analyses and statistics. So Cliff Summerall gave me a gift. He's still alive, he's in his nineties. I met him on a plane from Sacramento by sitting down to him--I'd forgotten. And I thanked him in some detail. And according to his wife, he was very moved. He gave me a real gift. And then I had a couple of other iconic teachers, anyone of a certain age will remember John Georges. English teacher who had been a Marine in the South Pacific and World War II. And a German teacher, Bob Maywald, who was German and had as a teenager gotten here after the war. So those are local people that really made a difference. But--and I ended up majoring in International Relations because really of that interest. 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000 Right. 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:21.000 And ended up spending the year in Germany, because I had a really good German teacher. So, when I got to college, that was pretty easy. 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 So, I can stop there. One of the thing I do want to add, when I ended up coming back here and being in the business ; the building material supply, especially lumber and plywood, mostly for houses, it's a commodity. And it's very competitive, because, how do you say, “Well, our two by four is better than their two by four?” And so, it has to be not only the quality of the lumber, but the service and that sort of thing. And prices change really fast, and you really have to be on top of it, but you have to--it's not a business you can just let go by. And so, every day you have to know what you're selling, if there's a problem, if your competitor is undercutting you, and you have to get on it to solve the problem. Many of our competitors went under because you--and so I learned that you have to solve problems. You can't ignore them, and you better get after it. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Right. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:14:02.000 So, I'll just stop there. I guess I had been doing that for, I don't know, twenty years, somewhere in that neighborhood. But I wanted to do something else. I was interested in education, and that's why I went for that school board appointment. 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:16.000 Yeah, I was going to ask for the family business that anybody within your family tried to push you to stay in that line of work, or were they more open to you doing other things? 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.000 My dad, had he lived, would've been very encouraging, I think. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000 Yeah. 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:35.000 And I learned that his dad, who had passed away before I was born, who I thought was just a quiet engineer type, turns out he was fascinated with international affairs. 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Oh. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:15:01.000 Would read newspapers. That was during the Roosevelt era. My--I was in the business with my cousin and I were running it, and his dad was still there, but my cousin and I were running that, and I think they thought I was crazy (both laugh). Which is what a lot of people think, you know, it's conflict and-- 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.000 Yeah. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.000 It's thankless, which it pretty much is. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:17.000 (laughs) Right, I was going to say, pretty much what it sounds like. So, but it really sounds like that business really helped shape who you became and it really helped you when it came to getting into politics. 00:15:17.000 --> 00:16:07.000 Yeah. What it did was, I always had this analytical bent and, you know, to go from college and think about a PhD and all that, you have to be very analytical. But what it added was: you better identify a problem and you better fix it, because if you wait it was very unforgiving. You know, there are businesses where, you know, it's just steady. And, and it wasn't like that. When I started out there were probably twenty lumber yards in San Diego County, and when we finally sold it in early 2000s there were basically two. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.000 Right. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:18.000 So. And so when I got into government, I wanted to solve problems, I wanted to analyze them and let's fix them. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:19.000 Right. 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.000 That's kind of hard to do (laughs). 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.000 Yeah. Right. Were you involved at all in that decision to sell the family business? 00:16:28.000 --> 00:17:36.000 Yeah, it was hard because, you know, the older generation who passed away, my cousin and I were running it, we--each of us had a sister who were not involved. And it's hard because he and I had grown up doing it. And our sisters, they weren't living locally, and they were all in favor of it. And this is very common in family businesses. You get different interests. So, but I was already in government, in the legislature, and he was frustrated and I had to say, “You're the guy there,” you know? So. But I actually think ultimately, actually, he regretted it. On the other hand, when it's a family business and you don't have people to hand it down to, and we had daughters and who--which is not a problem--but they weren't interested in it. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.000 Right. 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.000 So. 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:49.000 Right. Gotcha. So, going back, you said you spent a year in Germany. What was that experience like for you? 00:17:49.000 --> 00:20:07.000 Pomona had a semester abroad program. And in that program--which I think is the best way to do it, but it, these programs don't exist--you lived with a family for a month, and I happened to live with a family in southern Germany, a little town, Nördlingen, a little town in Bavaria. And I lived in a family that was the age of my grandparents and their daughter and their granddaughter, who was in her early twenties and was at the university. And it turns out that they had lived through World War I, he was in World War I, but never fought, but in the military ; went through hyperinflation in Germany ; the rise of Hitler, whom he strongly opposed. And he was working in the local government of this town, and they said, “Well, if you're working here, you have to sign up to join the Nazi party.” And it almost brings tears to my eyes. He wouldn't do it. And I thought so many times, you know, it's so easy for us in this country to say, “Well, they should do this or that.” And I've often wondered, would I have had the courage? All it was was signing a paper, they weren't making him do anything. Would I really have had the courage of my conviction? But he did. And it was during the war, and so they made him--Germany had taken over Czechoslovakia, so they made him move and go to Czechoslovakia. I mean, they kind of--that was his punishment. And he was there until the very end of the war. When they came back basically on a wagon, walking, he had lost so much weight, he said people he'd grown up with didn't recognize him. 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Wow. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:22:15.000 So, and I just really got along with them. And they had had a son who was drafted at the end of the war into the German military. He was only sixteen (years old). They were taking kids. And the last time they saw him, they argued about the war because they were against the war. They were against Hitler. And, whatever people may think, there were plenty who didn't like Hitler. And they argued and their son said, “Well, our lieutenant tells us that Führer has this new weapon and we're going to win.” He was a kid, right. Sixteen. And that was the last time they saw him. He was stationed near Berlin, and the Russians came in and, and so I think part of it was here was this young guy, I was only like nineteen or twenty (years old), and I think we got along and I think it was almost like here was their son that they lost. So we became really close. So that was my junior year. And then my senior year, my mentor--who later became famous--he had had a Fulbright, which was a scholarship, to Germany. And he said, “Mark, you should apply for this.” So I did. And lo and behold, I got it (laughs). So it was kind of a rough year. Because, again, I was graduated and I still didn't know what I wanted to do, but, so I spent the year in Germany studying German foreign policy. And that's one of the reasons I know so much about, a lot about Germany and the society and the culture and all that sort of thing. 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Right, right. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. So, it sounds like, as far as what motivated you or pushed you in the direction of politics, a lot of it sounds like it was self-interest to begin with, but I know you also mentioned that the Vietnam War had a huge influence as well. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? 00:22:34.000 --> 00:23:39.000 It did. I was of that era, which is only probably about five or six, seven years. And they, we had the draft which they ended, I think 1973 or something like that. And I was never in the service, but it affected the whole country, families, and it affected all the young men. And that's what I, what I ended up studying and writing about, and I'm still interested in the same thing, is: how people saw the world. How do you, in international affairs, the thing that's interesting to me is everyone wants peace, peace and prosperity, all over the world. That's what people want. 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000 Yep. 00:23:41.000 --> 00:28:03.000 And how did the decisions come about to say we need to engage militarily? And I have enormous respect for all those who fought there. And there are people from Escondido whose names are not along the wall in Washington, but in the park around the state capitol, there is a monument with the names of every Californian who was killed there. It's kind of emotional. Oscar Cruz, I'd grown up with Oscar Cruz ; he's on that wall. And I've forgotten his first name. One of the Durbin boys, I didn't know him, but they were a well-known family in Escondido, the Durbins. And I think what happened was we had kind of a Cold War mentality, which was: if you--they remembered so clearly what happened, the lesson that all those people make in those policies. You had Lyndon Johnson, you had (David) Dean Rust, the Secretary of State, you had McNamara, Secretary of Defense, you had the National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy. All of them were of the era where they had grown up in the ‘20s and then the Depression, and went from the Depression into World War II. And they knew the cost and they had lost people. And so, the lesson was the lesson of--and, I can't recall the British politician's name who earned peace in our time in Munich--and the lesson was just like, from Hitler, you have to fight them. You can't let them gain. And it's really what's playing out right now, even though it's not our people there, but in Ukraine with Russia. And I didn't think that lesson applied very well to Vietnam. But what I wrote about was Dean Rusk, who was Secretary of State, and all the different elements of his worldview. And what I think happens to people in general is you get a kind of a take on something. And pretty soon, well, that's just the way it is. You know, if I am, I could be a doctor--and, you know, there are these debates now about diets, for example, and you get--you know, these are smart, highly trained people, and they have, “Well, this is what you should eat or not eat,” or whatever it might be. And it's the same thing with solving all the problems that we have. And I worked a lot on education. “Well, this is what you do.” If you, if you want to teach, make sure English learners, and we have a lot of them in California who speak a different language at home. “If you want to make sure they learn English, this is the way you do.” And what I learned through those experiences is you can have some ideas, but take in new information and make sure that--and always be open. And in international affairs, you make decisions, but you don't know how they're going to turn out. And that's part of the interest and the tragedy of it. So, in the case of Vietnam--and I identified a dozen, maybe twenty different aspects of the worldview, how they saw things. And I don't think they really had thought it all through. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:38.000 Right. I know in the short amount of time in getting to know you, Mark, you are extremely passionate about education. And you were a member of the California State Assembly, and you served on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. You told me essentially that school board politics were just plain ugly. And that's putting it extremely lightly. What made school board politics just so ruthless? 00:28:38.000 --> 00:32:04.000 It was brutal. Brutal. Well, later on, when I represented half a million people in the (California State) Assembly and later on in the (State) Senate, a million people, which is more than a member of Congress, I dealt with many different school districts and cities. And what I learned about local government: they can vary greatly. You can have one city where everything is smooth. The city council, a school board, and you cross the line, and the city council and the school board are contentious. And at that point, on the Escondido Board, it was very contentious. And they had hired a new superintendent who was Hispanic. And then I think the district was probably two-thirds Hispanic. Now, it's probably at least three-quarters. And many, maybe most, came to school with either imperfect or no English. And they had hired this guy, but there was a group that opposed him. And they were organized and included some of the administrators and some of the people opposed me because I was appointed. And they thought their person was robbed. And it was very organized. And they had--it was organized politically to get rid of him. And we would have these meetings, you know, the state legislature, few people know this, but if you want to show up on a bill and you show up in the committee on the day a bill is heard, almost always, I mean, rarely it's not, they will ask, “Is there anyone else who wants to testify on this bill?” You can go right up there and testify. You can lobby all the people, send them letters, meet with them. But almost no one does it. But when it's in local government, they do. And we had some board meetings that, well, they were quite raucous. And I'll never forget one (laughs) where this--she came up and she wasn't--she had made some good points, and she had, and there's no dias. It was just same level. We're just behind the table. And she said, “I've got--you all deserve pink slips.” And she had little pink pieces of paper. And that was what you gave someone--you used to get that if you're going to get fired or laid off. And she plunked down in front of us a pink piece of paper saying, “You're fired.” You know, I can laugh about it, but it was awfully serious. And ultimately for a variety of other reasons we decided to part with that superintendent. But there were people working for the district who unfairly, I thought, suffered. And because they were seen as, you know, on the wrong side. 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Right. Did that at least prepare you though, for the next step in your career? Which we're going to get to next as far as— 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000 No. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.000 Being elected into the Senate? 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.000 No, because I couldn't believe it would be like that. 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Gotcha. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:35:22.000 I couldn't believe. But it was. And I'll tell you one funny story which illustrates it. I had a very contentious election. And this is important: we had two newspapers. This ties right into how we solve the problem of people feeling better about the government. We had The San Diego Union Tribune, and we had the North County Times, and they were robust, and they covered--The San Diego Union Tribune had, just on the editorial side, in addition to reporters, had a full-time editorial guy covering North County. And the North County Times did a great job. They covered school board meetings. They would editorialize about when we had these contentions about the school board. They had columnists who wrote about the school board. And people read the paper and they got a lot of information. And that's unfortunately no longer the case. So, what I--I had been very interested in this problem of Hispanic students learning English, because I knew their futures and the future of the state--you know, there are the immigration debates--but the fact is they were here. And I knew that their future and the future of the state depended upon them acculturating and being able to get good jobs, et cetera. So, I thought, “This can't be that hard.” And I thought--it's very naïve--I thought, “Escondido can be a model for the whole state.” Because it's small enough we can fix this. And that's kind of the business guy’s approach. Here's a problem, we need to jump in there and fix it. And it turns out in education, there are all these ideologies about how you teach reading and how you teach math. The business approach, which is, I think most people’s, is more pragmatic: I don't care. Let's just see what works. Well, it turned out, with all this contention, it was really hard. And I thought, and these mandatory tests were coming down from the state--which I thought were actually helpful--and I thought, “That's the place to fix this.” And that race was also brutal, that first race. But I don't need to, unless you want to, to get into it (laughs). 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000 (laughs) It's up to you. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:40:12.000 Well, I--you know, I ended up leaving graduate school with a master's and not going back for the PhD, but I think I got a PhD in practical politics. I was pretty naive. You know what, I'll tell you a little bit about that race, a little about that first year, and then maybe we can pause and figure out where you want to go next. I never--first of all, it was a primary. Primary of 2000 and the primary of 2000--and I was a Republican who had been a Democrat. And again, it was pragmatism. I just ended up agreeing with more of the Republican policies and fewer of the Democratic. But it was always pragmatic. What's the best answer to the problem? So, in that time--it's not the same now--but in that time, North County, and that's the district is, oh, 450--475,000 people. A congressional (district) then was around, I think 700,000 just to give--and a state senate (district) was just short of a million. And it was most of North County, big chunk of North County. And it was very conservative. So, whoever won the Republican primary was probably going to win the general election. So, I ended up starting out with a--I got some help to do this. You have to get help, really. And through that--consultant is what they call them. I ended up hiring a campaign manager who turned out to be a crook, a straight up crook! But he hadn't vetted him enough. So (laughs), so then, we--and there were seven or eight people in the race, which actually makes it easier because all you need is a plurality, not a majority. So, I ended up--that consultant, we parted ways and I got a very capable consultant. Some states just have a campaign manager--I had a consultant and a manager--and they design the race. And a key part of it is communication by mail. When you see TV ads, that's really expensive, and only a few campaigns have the money to do that. Same thing with radio. And in that era radio was going strong. So, you had radio, TV, ads, and mail. And so we were going along with issues that we thought were helpful. One's kind of a profile where you introduced the person. I was still reasonably well known in Escondido. They were still old guard. My family had been there forever. And I was at that point, president of the school board. And then, the then-assemblyman who was termed out, he didn't want me. He liked control. And he had picked someone that he thought he could control. So he was against me, which is hard because he raised money from lobbyists to go against me. And he discovered that when I was a Democrat, I had given money to Democrats. I'd given money to Al Gore in 1988. Well, in a primary you get the most intense voters. So having given money to Al Gore, to a good loyal Republican would be like in a Democratic race, having given money to Trump or Bush when they want Obama, it's like (Willis laughs) this can't work! 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000 Yeah. 00:40:13.000 --> 00:41:44.000 And you can't explain in a short campaign, you can't--the explanation was at that point--and I still believe now, you need two strong parties, which are reasonable. Well, Al Gore in 1988, I thought was pretty reasonable. I was a Republican, but I also wanted a reasonable Democrat. And he was running as a moderate Southern Democrat (laughs). Well, you can't explain that to people because it's ten, twelve years later. And by then he had changed. So anyway, it cut down my margin and I managed to squeak out a victory. Only because they--if they'd had more money, and money does play, people hate it, but it's like marketing. It's like, if you represent Coca-Cola and I've got “New Great Coke,” and you have a million dollars of marketing and name ID, and everyone likes Coke, and I've got a little amount to say, “Hey, this new stuff is really good,” it doesn't matter. And so they didn't have enough, and I squeaked it out. I think I got less than twenty percent of the vote. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Oh, wow. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000 I barely made it. And there was another guy on that race who was the mayor of Encinitas, Jim Bond. And he was on the ballot as James Bond. And the James Bond movie had just come out like few months before. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.000 Oh man. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.000 (laughs) And I, so I just barely squeaked it out. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Gotcha. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:22.000 And I was not prepared. It was intensely political, more than I expected, but I wasn't really prepared for it. 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:40.000 That's fascinating. So as far as the Senate, you represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Is that correct? (Wyland nods) So what was that moment like when you got into the Senate? Do you remember how you felt? 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000 Well, yeah. Let me give you, let me go back a little bit. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000 Yeah. 00:42:45.000 --> 00:49:26.000 Because I could talk about growing up in Escondido in that era for a long time, but we've got hundreds, if not thousands of my era, who can tell you that story. This is what's a little different. So, when I got to the Assembly, a friend of mine in the Assembly, but he had been there, I was new--later, a friend of mine in the Senate (Tony Strickland), now the Mayor of Huntington Beach, he came to meet me and we, he tells this story, which is true, and he said, “Well, Mark, what are your interests?” And I said, “Education.” And he kind of chuckled and said, “Well, what about education?” And I said, well, I say it was a five-point plan. He says, it was like a ten-point plan that I said, “I've got this plan.” And he started to laugh and he said, “You don't understand. Education is controlled by the Teacher's Union. And whatever they say goes.” And I did say “Yes, but they haven't seen the power of my ideas.” I used that phrase, “The power of my ideas.” Where upon Tony, Tony Strickland, he just started rolling on the floor laughing because he realized I had no idea how it worked. And what I learned was, local government is very different. Once you get in state government, it's just like, organized like Congress. There's parties, there's caucuses, legislative committees, floor--it's set up like that. And I always thought, you know, I'd been a Democrat. Everyone wants the same thing. Good jobs. Well, it--there are party differences. Not everything. Maybe half of the bills pass, everyone votes, which people don't understand enough of. It's not people like that all the time. You have to work together in the same building. But I did find it was much more partisan than I had expected. You know, “Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting. Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting.” So much so. It's a two-year session in the Assembly. So I ran in 2000, served in 2001, came back for my second year in 2002. And I'll never forget going into the basement of the building and then getting in the elevator to go up to my office. And my heart literally sank. It's a sensation I had never had. And I thought, “I hate this. I cannot keep doing this. I worked so hard to get this. I just hate this.” We aren't trying to solve problems. It's just the partisan--and some people in these bodies are very--there's a range of partisanship. Some are very partisan, some (unintelligible), but what happened that year is I happened to have a chief of staff who really understood politics and how politics works. And he also was, he'd probably deny it, but he was an amateur historian and they didn't have kids yet. And we would spend probably an hour, hour and a half, after work every night talking about history and Vietnam and all these things. And I learned about politics and got more engaged in politics, because I was ready to quit. So that's how that happened. And then in 2006, the Senator who had held that seat, Bill Morrow, he was retiring because of term limits. But before then, around 2005, there was a congressman here, Duke Cunningham, Randy “Duke” Cunningham, North County. And this is uncommon. I know a lot of people think it's common, it's uncommon: he was fraudulently selling his vote. He was on a relevant committee, appropriations for defense. And he had a contractor that basically, “If you give me this much money, I'll make sure you get this contract.” And I really want to emphasize as much as people think, “Oh, it's all about money, they're crooked.” No, they really aren't. And long and short of it is he was forced out. And a lot of people were saying, “Well, you need to run for that seat.” Which many people have told me, I would've pretty much walked into. But it was an identity crisis, a midlife crisis, because we'd sold our business. And I thought, “Well, if I don't win, what am I going to do?” And plus, my interest in education, that's really a state issue. They will talk about education at the federal level. The reality is the federal government has very little to do with education. It's primarily local and state. Long and short of that is I decided to stay with the state. And you know, sometimes gone back--think well, I should have done that. But I stayed with the state, and I walked into the seat because my potential opponents were running for the congressional seat. So, I walked in. 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.000 Yeah. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:51:08.000 And the Senate is different from the Assembly, just like the United States Senate is different from Congress. But it took me a little adjustment because there's a new group of people. But there's only forty. So the United States Senate is a hundred, and you really get to know those people. So I continued, I worked on a lot of different things, but education was a key part. And then it's four years. So the reelect was 2010, and I almost quit then. I only told my family, I didn't tell anyone else because if you say you're leaving, it's--you're a lame duck. It's a mad rush. And I just thought, it's so hard to get--so hard to make this better. And I had, and we can talk about them, things I worked on. And it's, to me, they were so obvious. And it's not because of malice or anything, it's just change, even positive change, it's just hard to get people--especially if it's different than what they're accustomed to. But ultimately, I did run again and so I stayed there until 2014. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:13.000 Right. And then you hit, you had hit your term limit at 2014, correct? 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.000 Right. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:20.000 If you had the ability to continue on, would you have or would you have gone now regardless? 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:40.000 That's a really good question. I think I might've done one more term. I think, well, I'm idealistic and you read what the Senate leader said about me. 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.000 Yes. I wanted to get to that. 00:51:41.000 --> 00:52:56.000 I keep thinking there's got to be a way, (both laugh) you know, there's just got to be a way. So, I might've done one more term. I think something that's very common with people of my age. So, I'm seventy-six now, and we think of retirement depending somewhere in the sixties. It can be early or young sixties or later. But from my friends, I would say a significant percentage want to keep working. Maybe they'd (work) not as much or as intensely, but there's kind of a desire to contribute. And I'm still on a--I'm emeritus now--but I ended up along that period of time being involved with Pomona, the alumni group, and then the Pomona Board. And I'm emeritus now, and they allow me to attend meetings and talk. So, I would like to have done more. 00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:04.000 Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell you had that ambition, even when you thought about quitting, you were like, “No, there's more to be done. I know I can make a difference.” 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:33.000 Yeah. And one of the things, I worked on a--I worked on a lot of things in education, but because of that time in Germany and Europe, I really--no system is perfect, but Americans don't know enough about how Europeans do things. And it's frustrating when people kind of knock Europe. They're our cousins (laughs). 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000 Yeah. 00:53:34.000 --> 00:54:57.000 We, you know, our society and culture and our government to some extent comes from that tradition. And I think it's important, not necessarily to copy, but well, how do they do this? Well, how do they do this? And in education it's not perfect, but they have one system that works really well, and that's apprenticeships. I worked on that. And there are misconceptions about that. And Americans, Americans will say things like, “Well, yeah, you know, plumbers make a lot of money.” And by the way, my grandfather was a plumber. That was his first business. So, I'm a--you know, I worked with those folks when I was in the lumber business and I did that work when I was--but apprenticeships are everything! Everything. Bankers are--start off as apprentices, realtors, insurance people, people managing resorts. Probably eighty, eighty-five percent of the jobs are various types of apprenticeships. And they give you training. And then if you have a facility and you're pretty good at, they give you more training. And the sky's the limit. And for a lot of reasons I thought we needed to develop more of that. 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Yeah, I completely agree. I know we discussed that in our pre-interview, how the United States is pretty much completely different than all the other countries out there. They have that focus of, “Hey, let's do an apprenticeship.” We have vocational schools. Of course we do have vocational schools here in the U.S. but we don't seem to put as much emphasis on them. Why do you think that is? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:58:12.000 Well, I'll tell you what the history is. First, Europe. Europe, starting in the Middle Ages developed guilds. Weavers, obviously technology moved beyond the people who wove, did weaving of cloth. And there was a great deal of respect. So, if someone was skilled at this ; a goldsmith, a baker, whatever it was, there was appreciation for that skill. And once the university got started, and they had medieval, you know, first in the early Dark Ages, it was in the monasteries. But then when universities got started, they were very old. But the modern university came out of Germany. They didn't have science and engineering. That was not common. It's all, it all started in Germany. Even in things like theology and archeology and all those things. And the same thing with all these various other jobs. And they were accustomed to, if you have a certificate, you really--there's a lot of respect. I think what happened in America, I mean it's a longer story, but the short of it is we had those, and we had in California, all the high schools were known as comprehensive high schools. So you didn't have a separate vocational school. So every high school--it was same at Escondido, same for all the high schools--you had a whole range. You had courses for people who were for sure going to go to college, those who weren't sure, and a lot of vocational courses. But there was not, it was sort of like, well, college somehow is like the ideal. But those vocational courses were great because there were a lot of great boys, and boys in particular, who didn't want to sit there and listen to a teacher talk all--they wanted to do things. And we had many agricultural classes, we had--before computer aided design, you could take four years of drafting. You had machine shop, you had auto shop. Well, it's not like they became auto mechanics. They learned practical engineering. 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.000 Yeah. 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:29.000 I mean, in auto shop they learned how machinery works. They learned a lot of physics. They learned the chemistry of combined--they learned all those things. And so, they could sit through the boring class because they had their cool project they were working on. 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.000 Yeah. 00:58:32.000 --> 00:59:27.000 I think it was unintentional but misguided that they dismantled that because it was driven by misguided administrators who thought, “Well we need to just, it needs to be all college.” College doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They will use the word, they don't have it. It's an American invention. And they don't understand it. And even in some cases, like in Spanish, there's “colegio,” which it translated to college. It's not, it's more like a high school. And in Germany, if you use the word “high school,” which in German is “Schule” (technische Schule), we think high school, “Schule” is like a technical university. It's called a technical high school. 00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:28.000 I see. 00:59:28.000 --> 01:00:27.000 And so, there's all this misunderstanding. But what we did was, the message became for those young people who weren't academically inclined--but are very capable and smart--the message was, “Well, unless you want to do this college thing, you know, you're not really, yeah, it's not so great, you know, if you have to do that.” That's so completely misguided. And so you get right here at San Marcos High School down the road--I drove by today because of this traffic mess--I had a buddy who was the soccer coach there, and he told me one day, he said a bunch of his kids came to him and said, “Coach, they're closing the machine shop.” And the kids said, “We only come to school to play soccer and for machine shop.” 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.000 Yeah. 01:00:28.000 --> 01:01:17.000 There's a lot of great healthy--it applies to girls and women too, but in a different way--healthy boys who--they, just, they're not the academically inclined. But to give you an illustration with machinery--and I've been in the factory in Switzerland where they make high-end machinery--you can start out as a machinist and end up as a mechanical engineer. And they train you and they train you. And so, I think the combination of this misguided notion that everyone has to go to college, we end up where we are. 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:18.000 Right. 01:01:18.000 --> 01:02:44.000 And then we end up with a problem of how do you finance it? The biggest debt we have in this country outside of home mortgages, it's not auto loans, it's not credit card. It's student loans! It's over a trillion dollars. Yesterday the brother of my niece's husband, I may have been telling you, he's moved out here. He's a chiropractor. He has an outrageous student loans. That doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They have this, the system is stripped down. But if he were in one of those other--let's just take the European countries--he might have a small loan, but it'd be very small. And it's not just higher taxes, it's because the system is different. So I did lots of work and lots of bills. You know, you have to take a slice of it. So, one of them, for example, was that every school district had to have a council that advises them and builds connections between various industries and the kids. So, that's my pitch. And if you survey Americans, they agree. 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.000 Right. 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:55.000 But it's really hard to make those changes in the school. 01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:09.000 We're forcing a lot of these kids to just have to figure it out on their own. Because a lot of them, when they're going through the K-12 system, they're like, “Well, this isn't for me. I already know this.” But especially once you get to high school, it's all about college prep, college prep. 01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:10.000 Right. 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.000 Taking these tests. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.000 Right. 01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:22.000 And I know for me, when I was going through high school, that was demoralizing because I was never a good test taker to begin with. I was never good at math. 01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:23.000 Right. 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:24.000 Never good at science. 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.000 Right. 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:28.000 And they put so much emphasis on these tests. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:29.000 Right. 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.000 And if you don't do well on them, you feel like a failure. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:32.000 Exactly. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.000 And you’re not smart. And that’s not true. 01:03:34.000 --> 01:06:21.000 That's what I'm talking about. And you know, I don't want to leave the young women out. And women probably understand that better. And I'll give you an example though with young women, two of them. But I think with boys in particular, I'm going to start saying controversial stuff (Willis laughs). I think boys are wired to go out and do stuff. They're just like, solve a problem. you know, hunt, you know, (laughs) just, and I think I was lucky because I was--things came easily enough to me. A lot of school I didn't like. But it came easily enough that just like with German, it came easy, so it wasn't that hard. But, and so that's the problem. It's demoralizing. And they wonder why there's such a dropout rate. And they--why the use of drugs and all this stuff is a--particularly younger males. You need to be validated, like you're making a contribution. And in these other countries, they have that. Now, one of the things that a lot of Americans don't like, they think, well then you're at a young age, you don't know what you want to do. And you're plugged into something. It's not that simple. I'll give you an example. Young woman who's trained and you start fifteen, sixteen, where you're going to school three days a week and then three afternoons a week and two full days as an example, you're in the business. So, she was trained in an auto dealership. First off, you're paid. So, you're sixteen. It's not a lot of money, but you're paid for that. And you learn all these skills. A lot of older people might say, “Wow, they don't even know how to answer the phone.” You learn all those skills. You learn how to write a business letter. You learn if the manufacturer sends a letter about a defect or something, you learn how to understand it, how to respond. You learn the economics of it. Well, our salesman paid a commission. How does that work? Inventory. How do we do that? By the time she's nineteen, she's ready to go. She understands that business backwards and forwards. But she doesn't have to say, “Well, my career, the rest of my life is doing that.” She's got all kinds of skill sets that you can go all sorts of places. 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:22.000 Exactly. 01:06:22.000 --> 01:08:01.000 Nursing, I worked hard on nursing. We have so many--mostly young women, a few young men--who would be great in every aspect of healthcare. And what do we do? All we do is make it hard. All we do is make it hard. And we made it worse. It used to be in an earlier era, nursing schools were affiliated with hospitals. And it was a combination of hands-on and classroom. So, if you applied to nursing school, and they had dormitories, you know, it's after a high school and a combined, classroom and clinical. So, you know, after six months, if you couldn't stand the sight of blood, you learned that and you didn't have to continue. And you're working all the time in a clinical setting. Plus learning the science. Well then we decided we have to upgrade it--has to more time in the classroom. Well, here's what happens. Whether it's at Palomar (College), and CSUSM’s (California State University, San Marcos) doing a pretty good job, I will guarantee you the freshman class comes in and there will be many times more kids who want to go into that. Well, we don't have the slots. And in those other countries, you can get that slot and you can be the most sophisticated OR nurse and you've done this and you can do it. And then you, if you want to, you move up. If you don't want to, you go into something else. 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:02.000 Right. 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:14.000 So, the part of the reason I'm so passionate about it is it's horrible to see these young people discouraged or demoralized. We need them (laughs). 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.000 Right. That's our future. 01:08:16.000 --> 01:10:31.000 And, and I totally understand why young women will come from training in another country. I totally get it. They get here, it's their lives go up. But what about our young women? And some of them are coming from difficult backgrounds and all they need is some assistance. A little more time. And they'll be great. And instead, you talk about spending money? Two friends of mine had wives who were nurses. Each of them went to the four-year undergraduate (school). Liberal arts. It's got its place. I'm a beneficiary of it. It's got its place. But then after that, and all the money, money society spent, money they spent, loans. Then they have all this intense nursing training, and then we don't have enough opportunities. So, and one of my doctors--you get to my age, you're in doctor's offices all the time and--meet this young man. He wants to be a PA, physician's assistant. Well, guess what? There are only a few programs, one's at UC Davis (University of California, Davis). I know that, because buddy of mine was a professor there. Why don't we have that? Every state school should have that! Because the people who are going to be treating people more and more are going to be physician's assistants and nurse practitioners. And let's talk about doctors. We're--there's now a shortage around here. Because there's a lot more of us in my baby boomer era. What's the limit? The limit is why--you tell me why the University of California, you can get a PhD. I don't mean to pick on them (Willis laughs). I love the UC, but why do we really want an administration that's practically as big as the student body? And I read the other day, Stanford's administration has more people than they do students. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:32.000 Oh, wow. 01:10:32.000 --> 01:11:55.000 And all the data show these administrations keep growing. And how come we don't have expanded medical schools? In 20--I think it was 2010 or 2012, we had a new senator from Riverside. And I was talking to him and I said, “What are you interested in?” He said, “My number one goal is to expand the medical school at UC Riverside (University of California, Riverside).” And it was kind of the reverse of what my friend Tony had done years before I chuckled and said, “That's not going to happen.” “Well, we need it.” I said, “You're right. And I will help you. And I'm on the budget subcommittee for education. I'm on the education committee, I will help you. But you just need to understand, when you come across that huge bureaucracy and you say, “Does every campus have to be able to grant a PhD in medieval French literature at every campus? Or should we expand the medical school?” And maybe we give them an incentive. If they agree to work in underserved communities for a few years, why don't we make it free? It should be free. 01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:56.000 Yes. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:07.000 Why shouldn't they be graduating and saying, you know, “I love family practice, but I'm going to make a lot more money doing this.” It's crazy. 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:09.000 Yeah. No, I'm right there with you. 01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.000 I'm sorry, Ryan. I get wound up. 01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:11.000 No (laughs). 01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:12.000 It brings it all back. 01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:58.000 No, it's a great conversation. I feel like we could talk about it for hours, but I did want to go back to your time in the Senate, near the end, in particular, when you had to retire. I want to talk about something a little bit more positive. Senator Darrell Steinberg, who I know you have a lot of respect for, he was quoted in saying, “Senator Wyland, I see you as the Republican romantic. You are somebody who constantly strives to make the world what it should be instead of what it is. You are a special member of the Senate, partly because you are unique.” How does that quote make you feel, first off? And in your opinion, what made you unique? 01:12:58.000 --> 01:14:00.000 Well, first of all, some Republicans say, “What do you mean, he is a Democrat!” Look, I have a lot of respect for Darrell. And in some ways you get to know people better even than their friends and family do. Because he really knew me. He'd seen me, you're working together all the time. We'd gone on a trip to Switzerland and Germany to look at these programs. And so I think it's one of the nicest compliments. There were some others in those tributes I really appreciated because I think he did understand. And I plead guilty. He's right. I can't--I'm pragmatic, but I can't, just can't say, “Well, that's the way it is. We can't fix it.” I keep thinking, “You know, we got to--we can make this better (laughs).” 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:01.000 Yeah. 01:14:01.000 --> 01:16:09.000 So, it made me--it first of all blew me away because every year when people retire, it's every election year, there's tributes. There's only few retiring, and there's a session where people speak about the member. And I was totally unprepared. From all the comments, I just, I was completely unprepared. So, it was a wonderful compliment. The downside of it is, and it's same thing in that column that Dan Walters wrote, well, that's great, but how do you make progress? (Both laugh) You know, it's--progress is tough and it's not--when I talk about these things, I'm optimistic. I do see the glass as half full. It's kind of a--I have a pretty high standard, and I think we just have to keep working at these things. And something that's really important. People are so cynical about politicians: it's not that easy. And at some point I would like to talk a little bit about my project because the biggest challenge is people know less. And so when they know less, it's harder to hold government accountable. And it's not their fault. I have friends who say, “Well, they're just lazy. They could find it on the internet.” It's really hard. It needs to be easy to understand how well you're being governed. But I'll tell you that and some of those other comments, especially from the other side, the other side, the other party, were--I really appreciate it. 01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:26.000 Yeah, I imagine. So that kind of is a great segue onto the next thing I wanted to address, which is something you mentioned to me is that the general public does not understand politics the way that they should. Can you elaborate on that? 01:16:26.000 --> 01:23:42.000 Yeah, Ryan, there's a lot of research that would illustrate this better. But my--here's my direct experience. When I first ran in 2000 and for several years after that, most people got a print newspaper. It wasn't that expensive. And most people when they established a household or got in their twenties or mid-twenties, got a paper. And the papers did a good job at reporting on what government was doing. And most of the reporting was fairly, I would say, fairly objective. They had different editorial policies. You know, one may be more conservative, one more liberal, but even then, that was within a group. And I say this as a guy started reading The New York Times when I lived in New York, so I'm kind of a newspaper addict. And the North County Times would publish probably--they'd have two pages full of letters. So, people felt they could weigh in and people would read the letters and respond. And for a whole bunch of reasons, the economics change, the advent of the internet and social media, less advertising, newspapers are dying. The North County Times (is) no more. So, the entire big chunk of North County is--there's some coverage and they try in The Coast News. And there's some--a little bit in the Solana Beach, maybe a little bit North, Encinitas-Del Mar area. But if you're living in San Marcos or Escondido, it's a news desert. How do you know when it comes time to vote for a city council person or a school board person, or a Palomar College trustee? How do you know? And so, I think the way to change this and to change some of the anger that we have and the demonization where our side's good, the other side's evil--and you know, I'm a Republican, but I see this on both sides. And they'll take the most outrageous person on the other side. And all the outrageous things they say, well, look like if you take Congress, and we'd be the same thing if they cover the state. That's a lot of people. There's always going to be some people who (laughs) you know, who will say outrageous things, some of them purposely because of the coverage. So, I think the solution of my project, I call it civic knowledge, it could be civic information, it could be any name is--I want a way for someone, and it has to be partly on the internet to say, “How much are we spending in the state? I read there's a twenty-five-billion-dollar deficit. Where's the money going? Where'd it come from?” And it becomes so common as you as like googling. And there it is. Historically, easy. It's not that complicated with pie charts and color. Holy cow. I had no idea that half of the money we're spending on is education. And by the way, are we measuring--are these kids learning to read? What skills do they have? How come thirty years ago we spent a huge amount on transportation and now we're not spending any? No wonder we have all these poorly maintained roads. I think it just--here's a national one. The whole issue of Social Security and Medicare, everyone who knows this, which is—knows, which is every member of Congress, all the staff, all the experts, the average people know that it has to be fixed because the--we're not generating enough money. We're paying out more in social security to me and my generation than we're taking in. Well, there's extra there, but it's diminishing as more and more people get older. There aren't enough people of your age who are chipping in. And by the way, they may send you something, but the money you send in is not going to Ryan Willis in his account. They keep track of it, because you will get it. The idea you will get it. But it's going to Mark Wyland and his buddies who are retired. So the reason, the underlying reason I think it doesn't get fixed is it's too tempting. If you and I are running and I say--you say, “Hey, we got to fix this. Look at my generation. I deserve it. I've been chipping in, my employer's chipping in, we got to fix this, got to reform it.” But the people don't understand we need to. My temptation, it's human: man, if I say, “Ryan wants to take away Medicare and take away Social Security and make you after retire at seventy-five (years old), I can win.” And so that's where we are. So no one touches it. And so, what my project is, everyone won't do this, but if enough people learn it (Social Security) has to be fixed, then instead of letting me get away with that and demonizing you, it's like, “Hey, Wyland, at least Ryan knows there's a problem. And he's talking about solutions. What's yours? Just rather than attacking him because you're pretending like there isn't one.” You see what I'm saying? What I'm trying to do is something I've wanted to do for forty years, which is change the nature of politics where enough people, it doesn't have to be everyone, just enough people, ten, fifteen percent, twenty, wonderful. Who know enough that pretty soon, instead of just these attacks, it's “Okay, here's the problem. What's your solution?” 01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:44.000 Yeah. 01:23:44.000 --> 01:23:46.000 You see what I'm saying? 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:51.000 Right. I know you said that your mission really is obtaining better quality government. 01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:52.000 Yeah. 01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:55.000 And how do you do that? People need to be more informed. 01:23:55.000 --> 01:24:57.000 And it's the people that can hold them accountable. Because--look, I was a Republican. I am a Republican, but, and it's generally, and I have most of my oldest friends are Democrats, we need to get rid of this stuff (mashes fingers towards each other, indicating conflict). It's like, how do we solve this problem? And I'm more interested in, at the end of the day, not just, I may think, “Well, this is the best solution,” but I'm more interested in the gift I would like to give is let's have a discussion where we actually understand what the issues are. And you know what, I may say Social Security is better if you make--if people have to work another couple of years and you may say, “No, we should do this, or tax--the company has to pay more.” I don't care about that part as much as, “Hey, we're talking about how we solve it.” 01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:58.000 The discussion. 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:46.000 And that's how you get better government. Sadly, the newspapers used to help us. They don't. TV's a joke. Boy, I'm starting to say things I might regret (Willis laughs). Look, I get local TV news, I understand it's a business. It gets worse and worse and worse. If you even have the first segment as real news, you're lucky. And all of them used to have reporters who knew government. Same thing with--I'll say this about the UT (The San Diego Union Tribune) and I know some of those people--they don't have enough reporters who actually understand government and as it declines and declines, and then they say, “Well, we're about this. We're about focusing on this group.” 01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:47.000 Yeah. 01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:51.000 I heard one of their key people there, I just could hardly believe it, say, “Well, we want to write stories about, you know, instead of old white men, we're going to focus on what this group or that group or my group.” And I'm thinking, tell me who doesn't want a good job, a good education for their family, a reasonably safe environment, who doesn't want to sit in traffic?” I mean, everyone has the same thing. Everyone wants healthcare. Some people have a bigger problem than others. We need to work on it. It's like (laughs)--and they don't know that. And they will write these endless stories about--that avoid--and because solving the problems is where it gets hard. That's where the hard work is. And that's where you realize, “Gosh, it's not as simple as I thought.” 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:58.000 But with your project you feel like it can explain it to people and give them a platform. 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:49.000 I can give you succinctly--we don't think twice about googling, right? And a friend of mine had this experience just recently-- I've been talking to, because I'm trying to get the fund(ing)--I actually have a nonprofit I set up years ago: the Institute for Civic Education. And you could do it as a nonprofit or you could even do it, you could sell it to libraries and things like that for research. It's not that hard. If you--people who are informed, educated, if you say, “Well, you know, there's these fights about defense and Social Security. Well, where do they spend the money?” They don't know. 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:50.000 Yeah. 01:27:50.000 --> 01:29:51.000 I was talking to a friend of mine, highly educated guy, retired now, when I lived in New York, he was a pretty big-time business guy. And we're--but he's lifelong Democrat. But we, you know, we didn't used to have those divisions, you would joke, you'd kid, “Ah, you know, he is a right-wing, crazy, ah—" you like, it didn't matter (laughs). And I'm trying to get, we need to come together as a country. And I remember he said, “You know, I've lived in New York for forty years. I couldn't tell you,” I--he gets The New York Times every day. Maybe The Wall Street Journal. He said, “I couldn't tell you where the money is spent.” It's that simple. And they've got major problems. Look at the billions we're spending on the bullet train. I know trains, I knew more about that than anyone in that entire building, the legislature. Because I'd lived in New York and I'd taken it every day and I'd lived in Europe. And there's only a few places where they make sense here. In some places. So, because we no longer have the newspapers, I think if we get this information out there, you can market it, not necessarily for money, but--and pretty soon it's in social media, and instead of someone saying, “well google it” Hey, check out Civic Knowledge, check out Civic Information on that. We're debating this or that. Check it out. Who--and it has to be objective, it cannot be partisan. And it has to include solutions across the political spectrum in their own words. We were talking just before we started about an interview on 60 Minutes, which is what this would not be, where it was clear the intent was to do what I call “gotcha journalism.” 01:29:51.000 --> 01:29:52.000 Yeah. 01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:34.000 “I'm going to come up with a question that's going to make you sweat and everyone's going to see, you know, how horrible you are.” No. They need to, in their own words, they need to be exposed to the solution. I guarantee you what people will see is, it's harder than they thought. And it's a kind of a way of maturity when you become an adult and you realize--and people tend to be more pragmatic and let's see if we can move the ball forward. 01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:53.000 Yeah. No, definitely. So, along those lines, looking at politics today, I know you've expressed to me that one of the core issues, I mean, I know there's a lot, but one of the core issues with voters, and it's been problematic for decades, is not knowing who they're even really voting for. 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:54.000 Right. 01:30:54.000 --> 01:30:55.000 Who are these people? 01:30:55.000 --> 01:30:56.000 Right. 01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:02.000 And many voters either don't do their due diligence or they don't really know where to start. 01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:03.000 Right. 01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:09.000 When it comes to researching these people and they really just go off of endorsements. 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:10.000 Right. 01:31:10.000 --> 01:31:13.000 And relying on their own emotions essentially. 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.000 Right. Exactly. 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:17.000 I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. 01:31:17.000 --> 01:32:22.000 Well, you nailed it, Ryan. And it's a change in a short period of time. That's what's so staggering. I mean, when I started in the early 2000s, you could get (laughs), I'm kind of an addict, but I was getting six or seven papers a day. I was getting four or five California papers. And journalists, they, and it's--their problem is it's a business. And their business went away once advertising moved to the internet and people no longer--it was no longer part of a rite of passage as you got older and formed a household, well, you get the paper--and maybe initially, and it's still true today--the guy, the first thing he's going to look at is the sports. And I know people still subscribing to the print version of the UT which is going down, who are disgusted with other parts, but they're reading the sports-- 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:23.000 Or the comics. 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Or the comics (laughs). I'm a fan of the comics. 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Same here. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:27.000 I read the comics every day. 01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:28.000 Yep (laughs). 01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:29.000 Certain ones I really like. 01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:30.000 Right. 01:32:30.000 --> 01:35:10.000 And there's a lot of wisdom in the comics (laughs). And so it's an art form. So, I think that's made it harder. And I have a friend who was a pretty big-time newspaper publisher in other parts of the country. And we talk about this a lot. And I'm trying to say this is the only solution I know because when I started here, both the North County Times and the UT interviewed virtually every candidate, every candidate, if running for city council in El Cajon or Escondido or San Marcos, they interviewed you. And when I first sat down with the UT Editorial Board, it was seven or eight people and they apologized that they weren't all there. They had a separate editorial specialist on national security issues, which made sense. Here we are in the Navy town for crying out loud, the Navy and the Marines. And so, the only way I know to help change that and bring people more together is to have a simple way of seeing this. And if it's fully fleshed out, you can have a simple summary and then you can add more detail. So, if you want to know, well, how come we don't have more doctors? It's not hard. You figure out, well, they have to have residencies, who controls the number of residencies? Medicare. Medicare controls that. So, you ask your congressman, “Why don't you expand residencies for medical schools here?” Okay. You see, you can ask the governor this, and every legislator, you can't tell me. And if you saw the numbers and how big that bureaucracy is, you wouldn't believe it. You're telling me that you don't have enough room for doctors. Give me a break. Come on. The CSUs and the community colleges ; when Palomar has a three quarter a billion-dollar bond issue, and I said to them, “Aren't you going to expand your facilities for people who want to go into nursing?” “Well, you know.” Come on. I get why you're saying that, but this is something society needs. 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:11.000 Yep. 01:35:11.000 --> 01:36:11.000 So, I said yesterday at Easter gathering, a family gathering, this came up and my sister's approach was, “Come on, people are lazy. They won't check it out.” Well, au contraire, (laughs) I think if people get accustomed to it, people check out their Google all the time. If they get used to it and it's objective, it can't be seen--so, if you portray someone's view on something: so-and-so introduced a bill to do this, if they call up and say, “Wait a minute, that you--you need to read it, that my intent is this.” I'm going to put exactly what they say. It has to be reliable. And I think it's one of the few ways out of this mess we’re in. 01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:30.000 Yeah. No, I agree. You mentioned it being objective. And I find that interesting because I know in one of the classes I have taken as a graduate student, one of the professors used to always ask, “Is it even possible to be objective?” What are your thoughts on that? 01:36:30.000 --> 01:48:04.000 You put your finger on a huge issue. And I want to think carefully before I go down this road. But I'm going to say it straight out anyway. I'm getting wound up. This ideology--and I'll say straight up, I can't stand ideology because I'm not talking about values or world views. Those are fine. But I define ideology as a rigid view. “It's only this way.” And new information bounces off. “It's this way.” And if I decide if there's some new issue, what my position is, what does my ideology say? I think it needs to be more pragmatic. And an ideology that has grown up in academia, which has had, I believe a really pernicious effect started in the 1970s in literature with postmodernism. And it used a couple of French philosophers, Jacque Derrida, and the other one escapes me. And ultimately developed--conservatives say it's Marxism and socialism. Not really. I think it took something that's real. Human beings have a history of--there are people who take advantage of others. And I think the promise of Western civilization--we need to go beyond the U.S.--is we confront things and try to fix them over time. Freedom of speech is part of it. Well, as that developed--this is my view--into all the iterations with all the terms. And it certainly happened in history. And it went from social history to, you know, critical theory and all the aspects of critical theory. And then to the deconstruction of text because--which applied to law. “Well, it doesn't really mean this because if you deconstruct it, it's yet one more example of those with power, especially white males, trying to oppress those without power.” And like with most insights, there's example--I mean, and most of this stuff that is anti-the West in anti-United States never looks at the sweep of history. I actually did a bill on this. It never looks comparatively, it never looks what happened within, oh, there's a name for it, Aboriginal groups. And with modern, whether it's anywhere in Europe, encountering less-advanced societies, it's always there. And the promise of western civilization is that we've worked hard to overcome a lot of those things and to build in tolerance. So, the problem I have with it is, it doesn't give you solutions. So I'll give one last example. Because I, you can see, I can go on. A professor I know has won many teaching awards and always liked to yank my chain. So, we're at a conference and he at a table, another professor and I am there and he comes up and says, “Well, you know, Mark, capitalism has hurt and damaged a lot more people than it's helped.” I knew what his goal is. He's read so many academic works, he's going to put me in my place because he knows this author and this author and that. But I don't rise to that bait. I said to him, his name is David. I said, “You know, David, all of us want people to do well. All of us.” There's no one who says, I want him to be poor, to struggle. But I said, “Here's the challenges.” And I just walked through the challenges, said, “What are you going to do if someone's got a good manufacturing job and China is subsidizing it so he can undercut the American company? He loses his job.” I just walked through all these challenges. Well, of course he has absolutely no idea. And he said, “Well, that's not my job. My job is to point out the problems, not the solutions.” Well, he was being so jerky about it, I said to him, I said, “Well, David, you know, that's okay for your students who become like you: an unaccountable academic. But for most people, what they do in their lives--work lives--is solve problems.” Well (laughs), he got all upset and stomped off. But my point was, that's how we can come together. That's how we can come together and respect each other more. So--and the same thing's true with ideology on the right. I mean, that happens to be, there's ideology and ideological things I've seen which are ridiculous. And I remember when I was early on up in the legislature, one of these ideologues on the right was saying, “Well, you know, we just have to be like on the budget has to be this.” And I said, “Look, I tried to sell my lumber and plywood materials to contractors who said, “Yeah, but I got a cheaper price over there.” I couldn't pound the table and say, “Well, this is a fair price.” He'll walk away. I have to figure out a way. And that's what I'm trying to achieve. I think--this is part of your history. And I think history is, if I hadn't studied IR (International Relations), I would've been a history major. It's got so much. But the only caution I would use, I think it's an important trait. Humility. Yes, you can define, you can say, “Well, one person's objectivity is another person's subjectivity.” I understand that. But it doesn't mean you don't strive for objectivity. And part of the problem of this worldview, and it's illustrated--and I'll get you this in a very important report from the Cronkite School at Arizona State--from prominent journalists ; former executive editor of the Washington Post, one of the key executives at CBS, and they quote many others, and they take it head on. They want to destroy objectivity. And they say objectivity is basically this white male point-of-view. I want to include all points of view. But you also have to have data and evidence. You can come up with the 1619 Project, which she says is a work of journalism. And you can cite evidence. And I'm not against that. But you also have to respect the evidence. Evidence is not always clear. And unlike a chemistry or a physics problem--and I thought a lot about this in the understanding politics--you can't say, “Well, the atomic weight of this molecule--" You can't do that. You have to--and so, so when I say “objective,” what I mean is I'm happy to have the standard that people of goodwill would say, this meets the standard, and that's where the solution part comes in. I don't care whether, I mean, it's not the crazy stuff, but I mean, you can go on the left with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, less say, AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez), because she doesn't know as much but her as well. And you can go with whoever it is on, on the right. And you fully, you want their point of view out there and you want as much evidence as you can get. And if there's a disagreement about it, someone says, “Well, I think the number is this.” You put it out there. Because my goal is not, “I want this policy.” My goal is: you achieve--that's how you achieve objectivity and transparency. I would love to have the debate with any academic who says that. Now, is perfect--you know, the University of California changed a decade ago. It's--they have their own guide for research and they eliminated objectivity. The origins of this is an intellectual movement that came out of academia all those decades ago. I would never contend there is perfect objectivity. And one person can say, “My view's objective, so is the other one.” But you try to gather as much evidence, as much transparency. And the idea is you, all of us in the public who just want good governance, who doesn't want to sit in traffic because Caltrans (California Department of Transportation) can't get their act together, who work 24/7 and get that fixed. And most of us also want them to do enough maintenance and repair. So, they're prepared for a lot of water (laughs). 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:14.000 Yeah. I know you mentioned that most people don't even know where to direct the blame when it comes to politics. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:15.000 Yeah. 01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:25.000 This is going to go into--I know you wanted me to ask you about some of the bills that you wrote personally, specifically an SDG&E bill (San Diego Gas & Electric). 01:48:25.000 --> 01:55:59.000 (laughs) I went after them. You know, there are a lot of them, and I'll just name two that don't have anything to do with education. My first year, and it's relevant today: (California Governor) Gray Davis in 2000, there were some blackouts, I mean straight up blackouts if we weren't, this wasn't like we've had where reduced power, straight up blackouts. People were incensed. So he panicked. And when people are upset, they tend to take it out on whoever's in the office. So, the first year we spent an enormous amount of time, special sessions, trying to understand what happened. And it had to do just like now with the price of natural gas. And the reality, most people don't know, and it's shameful right now that UT and the others don't seem to understand it: these utilities, and there's three major ones, are private companies regulated by government, which is the Public Utilities Commission. What SDG&E was committed, in our case, to paying for natural gas that shot up outrageously, had to be approved! They can't do that on their own. It had to be approved by the Public Utilities Commission. So what the heck are they doing? Well, the governor appoints the Public Utilities Commission. That's where you need to look at. What did they let SDG&E get away with that their cost of natural gas was so high that our bills skyrocket? And I think, Ryan, you know this, there are people who were really it through threw budgets. It really destroyed a lot of people's budgets. And so, it wasn't as bad, but what I came up with is, well, rather than have all these entities, people don't understand, let's have--it's a MUD, a Municipal Utility District. There is one in Sacramento, it's been there for years. And a Municipal Utility District, it's a non-profit. And people elect the governing board. So like, if it were in San Diego County, say five people. And I'd like to see that today, where there's direct accountability. Ryan, you're on that board, my bill's going up, what the heck is going on? Well, you're elected and you're going to respond and you're probably going to respond ahead of time. Because you know it's coming. It's not like, “Well that's SDG&E,” which really doesn't care. Why do they care? Their business decided by the Public Utilities Commission. So, you know, UT said, “Go to the meeting, get angry.” What do they care? Go to the PUC (Public Utilities Commission). What do they care? Now, if they said “Governor (laughs)!” So, what happened was, I couldn't--the utilities really had outsized interest in the committees and the legislature. So, I got help from a former--a Democrat--a former State Senator from South County, Steve Peace. He helped me. I could never have gotten that done at every turn. I managed to get it past the main first committee in Assembly. Well, the procedure is, it has to be transmitted physically. The bill has to be taken to the chamber to go to the next step. Well, they just didn't transmit it. They weren't going to. But Steve called them up and said, “Hey Mark. I had to tell them, get that bill out of there because they were just going to hold it,” which meant it would've died. And then it had to do with an interpretation of the law, which I thought I understood because I must have read it a hundred times better. And SDG&E said, “Well, our lawyers say we won't oppose this.” Besides, they didn't want to be the bad guy. Long story short, I got it pretty much overwhelmingly passed for Gray Davis to sign. And son of gun, he vetoed it. And what his spokesperson said was--here's what happened. He got so panicked. He went out because of the blackouts. He went out and made long-term contracts for natural gas. All the experts, because we had them there talking to us, testifying, all the experts said, “Whatever you do, don't do that, because we know the cycle. It's high now it's going to come down.” He panicked. So, he said, “Well, we've made all these long-term contracts, it's like per million cubic feet or whatever at like ten dollars. And now it's only five dollars. If I sign this, if I sign Wyland’s bill, they're going to have a MUD and they're going to buy all the gas cheap. And I'm stuck with all this expensive gas.” (Willis laughs) And I'll just say, give an example of one other bill, which I never had heard because it would never have passed, but it was introduced. And what it would've done is said, well, instead of considering the budget every year we're going to have a two-year budget. And the first year of every session, all we do is the budget. We don't do these hundreds--there's hundreds--there are sessions where there's 2,000 bills introduced. It becomes a bill factory and too many aren't really that important. All we'll do is the budget. And then it had the state auditor looking at every expenditure and developing a way to explain the history, the funding, the intended effect, and to devise a system to measure: is it effective? And then a recommendation. Is it really effective? We need to do more. Is it ineffective? We could get rid of it. And the idea was over time that the legislators would get really familiar. Really familiar. Because here's another little secret that shouldn't be, the single most important thing all government does is its spending, where does it get the money? How much do we pay in gas tax? Try to figure that one out and how it's changed and where does it go? Is where you get the money and where you spend it. And when you see these articles about this bill or that bill. Yeah, there are occasionally some bills that they feature. But you know, I'll bet you, I mean, my gosh, one year in education, a couple years we did over two hundred pieces of law. And I used to say, “Well, I voted on 2,000 new laws for education.” Do you think education is 2,000 laws better (both laugh). 01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:01.000 Right (laughs). 01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:35.000 So those are two things I worked on. I knew that wouldn't--you couldn't pass it because it's too big and it's too much of a change and it's too hard for people to get their arms around. To me it was no big deal because I've been used to being in business where we need to make this radical change because three months from now, we're going to be losing money big time if we don't do it. But in government, that's harder. So-- 01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:40.000 Different way of thinking for sure. 01:56:40.000 --> 01:57:23.000 It's not, it's not malicious like people saying, “I'm going to make things harder or worse.” It's just people get set in their way and they get set in their beliefs. And I was just listening to some scientists talk about nutrition science and talk about how many recommendations are made without good evidence. And we think of, “Well, science is always simple, straightforward.” Well, there's debates there too. 01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:24.000 Yeah. 01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:30.000 And, but they have studies they can debate and this, that's what I was trying to achieve. 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:43.000 I see. Since I am part of the oral history project here at CSUSM, it would be very remiss of me if I did not ask you about your efforts in promoting oral history. I understand you wrote three bills? 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:44.000 Three. 01:57:44.000 --> 01:57:57.000 That emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. Why did you and still do feel so passionately about oral history? 01:57:57.000 --> 02:10:49.000 I think we need a lot more of it. We need it in the classroom. Good oral history. Mine might be too boring. They might say after ten minutes, “Okay, teacher, come on, we’ve heard enough of this guy.” I think human beings are hardwired to like stories. It can be a TV, a movie, a song. And my grandfather was a great storyteller. And as a little kid, he would tell stories about growing up in Minnesota on the farm. He was a good storyteller. And he was just really good. He would even perform and all these things. And then when I spent that semester in Germany, I learned so much from the grandfather in that family of what he had experienced. And you can't read it. And then his--another relative who later married his daughter was a great storyteller. And when you hear the stories and what happened in Nazi Germany and you hear someone say, “I was in this professor--this Jewish professor's office, and we hear all this commotion in the street and we go over the window and we see the brown shirts marching in the street.” You can read about it, but it's just not as powerful. So I became a huge believer in it. And I also was concerned that we were losing a sense of patriotism, which does not mean our country's perfect. Everything is perfect. I wave--I've never worn a flag lapel or all these things. But it means I've studied a lot of history in many different countries and societies. And unless there's some residual belief in your society, belief that we may not do things right, but there's a reservoir of goodwill, something like that ; it bodes--it doesn't bode well. And I knew you can't go out and get into these curriculum wars, you know, my book or my view, or we're going to teach the 1619 Project. We were racist in the beginning. We're--it's in our genes we always will be. Or this view that says, you know, the colonists were gods on earth, et cetera. I thought, “What about the stories?” And I thought about my parents' generation, World War II. So, I wrote a bill for to incorporate junior year taking American history, the stories of World War II veterans, and people on the home front because the country was really united. I even had a series of things I wanted them to cover. And everyone liked it. I couldn't mandate it. I couldn't say every history course has to have it. I did want it to be available. My idea was, it's available. Teachers need help. I wanted it, I didn't get there where you're teaching American history in high school and here's an oral history unit, you can use it one day, one week. It's curated. Here's essay questions, test questions, (unintelligible) the whole thing. And here's an in-service where you can learn how to do it. To make it, you know, so teachers say, “Yeah, that'll get kids interested.” The one thing though that illustrated the change, and this has to do with objectivity, it's right there. The last sentence and that they're supposed to be asked was--because I didn't say, just tell the story. I wanted them to cover certain things--what did they think about our entry to the war? Did all these sorts of things. Their opinion of the end of the war in the Pacific and the use of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Well, I knew that every single vet is going to say, “Darn right we did that. We would've lost thousands plus thousands of Japanese. We needed to end that war.” And here my own dad was getting ready to get shipped overseas. He was ready to go when they dropped the bomb and the war ended. And I also knew that so-called revisionist, Cold War history. And I don't know if you read any of that stuff, but I'd read it in graduate school. And the professor said, “Once you read this, you'll think it's utter nonsense, but it's out there and I think it's important you'd be familiar with it.” And then we went through it. And the lack of evidence and selected use of evidence you're talking about--that was subjective. And I knew that some of it at the extremes was saying, we initiated the Cold War because we dropped those bombs purposely to challenge the Soviets, to show them “You better watch out.” That's an oversimplification. And by the way, it was also racist act, just like our internment. Well, we interned, I mean, no one can deny we did all those things. But the humility of trying to understand history and other people is try to look at it from their perspective. You know? And, so it was intended to be an antidote because what I'd seen was, it's only this perspective. I tell friends of mine, I said, you ought to read because I have textbooks. I said, “you ought to read a current textbook when it covers World War II.” And because it's not that it didn't happen. We had riots in Mobile and up in Oakland at the shipyards. All those--no one denies any of that stuff, but there's more to it than that. And all the things that we knew, we knew every battle. We knew what a sacrifice, those poor marines. And we knew the debates: MacArthur convincing Roosevelt to waste all those men's lives and Filipino lives and Japanese lives invading the Philippines. The Navy clearly had the right--forget the Philippines, we can beat them with-- anyway, all those important things. And so, son of a gun, it (the bill) sails through. And I had a co-author in the Senate, great senator who could have gone on to be Mayor and Congress and all the rest of anything she wanted. And from San Diego. And we're ready to go. And it's on the Senate floor. And then it would've gone to the Governor and son of a gun in my office says, “You know, Mark, we got a call. There's a problem. You can't get it off the Senate floor.” Son of a gun. The Speaker, the then Speaker whom I liked, John Burton--he was old school, old school Democratic politician from Northern California whose brother was a member of Congress when they had that horrible thing in Central America with “Drink the Kool Aid.” Anyway, he had empowered, he didn't do it. He had a staffer who was younger and she read that thing. And the minute she read that line about dropping the bomb (waves arms as if referee), no goal. And she told my office, “You take that out and it's fine.” Now that is the reality because she was younger and she had an ideological view--in my view, in my opinion--an ideological subjective view that the use of those weapons was evidence. Total evidence. Not, “Well what's the other view? I've never actually talked to veterans, how they’d view this.” Total evidence. Because she had read--oh my gosh, one of the authors, Gabriel Coco, there were several, I used to know all of them--that that was reality. And I got it through. And then the next year I did one for Korea and Vietnam. And it was before, I think it was before Iraq, but it covered what had happened in the Middle East. Same thing. And then I did one that took me about four years, on genocide. I finally got it through my last year. And I thought it was important to understand the historical phenomenon of genocide. Not just the Holocaust. And what I said to Jewish members up there, “We, you know, we do a tribute to the Holocaust, memory of the Holocaust every year, but it's not just the Holocaust. This is human beings do this.” And I started as with oral history. So I started with the Armenian (genocide). And we have a lot of people of Armenian backgrounds in California now, as examples. Not the only ones. Armenian, the Holocaust. I used Cambodia, Rwanda, I think Somalia, maybe Bosnia as examples. And you know, it's the dark side of human history. And very importantly, I included that when students consider this, they need to consider how we can avoid these in the future because the solution part is so important. And that's the hard stuff. And I even had in there for example, “Should we be willing to deploy UN troops or American troops?” Neither of which we would do. And I just wanted them to understand, you can get wound up and a lot of people are wound up and emotional about all sorts of things, but do the hard work about solving it. And once you get in the trenches, it's harder. And so that was the idea. And because interestingly enough, the only reason it took me so long, was there is a very powerful Turkish interest group that says the Armenian genocide never happened. It's a fiction. And finally I was able to get that passed. And if you've ever heard any of those documentaries, which I'm addicted to, and you can hear like for the Holocaust, some of those films. So, you're embarked on something really important. I think the oral history is really important. And when you become a professor of this, a teacher of this, I hope you incorporate it. 02:10:49.000 --> 02:10:56.000 Definitely. I love the concept of oral history. And I wasn't even introduced to it until recently. 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:57.000 Yeah. 02:10:57.000 --> 02:11:01.000 This is something that I would've loved in high school. 02:11:01.000 --> 02:11:02.000 Yeah. 02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:09.000 Instead of a teacher just--talk, talk talk--“This is what happened in this war. This war is what, okay, let's take a test on it.” 02:11:09.000 --> 02:11:10.000 You know-- 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:11.000 Hearing these perspectives-- 02:11:11.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Yeah. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Would've been mind-blowing. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:14:34.000 Well see my, both of my grandparents, all four of my grandparents were raised on farms. That's how you learn. We were agricultural. And you hear their stories. And all of them left because the work was never ending and really hard because they're family farms. And my grandfather was the youngest in a big farm family. And he was a good storyteller. So, I learned about the nineteenth century from those stories. His name was Bryan Swede, who was the city councilman supervisor. Well, he was named after William Jennings Bryan. And that's my middle name. Because his father was a devotee of William Jennings Bryan the Prairie populist. And he had gone to rallies as a little kid for William Jennings Bryan, where they had songs, you know, I had music, they had these political songs and how would I know this? But he explained his father--this was in Minnesota, was--some sort of official state official who, and you would know the period better, but ended up going to Colorado during that period in the early twentieth century where they had all the mine riot--the mine strikes and all that stuff. And he saw how the miners were treated, and the strike breakers. And it radicalized him to use a modern term. And he came back and he joined--he was a Wobbly, International Workers of the World (Industrial Workers of the World). Now this is a guy with not a lot of education, but you really got, you really understand what it was like when you saw--you know, you can read about strike breakers--but he went and saw the way they were being treated. So, you know, it's powerful. And if I hadn't learned all those stories in Germany, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I--you (laughs) when--and it's not only the family I lived with, but then the husband of the daughter who--and what it was like being a student with no money and eating--in Vienna when there were riots and the cops were all on horseback with sabers and all that stuff. It's like, wow. We're at the end of the war when he was an official, he was an economist he was on the train from Frankfurt to Berlin. The train is stopped--end the war. German soldiers are deserting. Stop. They go through, check everyone's ID, find Germans who they consider deserters and they spring them up right there. And you just--all these, that's--I don't--that should, that's too negative. (Willis laughs) But you really, yeah. 02:14:34.000 --> 02:14:36.000 It changes your perspective completely. 02:14:36.000 --> 02:14:37.000 Yeah. 02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:42.000 And this is going to be one of the last things for me, Mark, as we're wrapping it up here (Wyland laughs). 02:14:42.000 --> 02:14:44.000 I've done a whole-- 02:14:44.000 --> 02:14:45.000 No, this has been great. 02:14:45.000 --> 02:14:48.000 This is a dump (both laugh). 02:14:48.000 --> 02:15:01.000 I've enjoyed every minute of it, I assure you. But one thing that's really, obviously as an historian, really important to me is just knowing the truth. Like, I love learning history, but I want to know the truth. Don't give me this, you know, romantic-- 02:15:01.000 --> 02:15:02.000 Right. 02:15:02.000 --> 02:15:08.000 Romanticized version of it. And one thing I'm very passionate about is Native American history. 02:15:08.000 --> 02:15:09.000 Right. 02:15:09.000 --> 02:15:10.000 My wife is Native American. 02:15:10.000 --> 02:15:12.000 Right. 02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:21.000 We are taught as young children that, “Oh, you know, we, the Natives welcomed, you know, the white man with open arms.” 02:15:21.000 --> 02:15:22.000 Yeah. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:24.000 “We shared their land. We had Thanksgiving.” 02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Right, right. 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:28.000 We don't learn the truth about it until we're adults. 02:15:28.000 --> 02:15:29.000 Yeah. 02:15:29.000 --> 02:15:32.000 Which is incredible to me. 02:15:32.000 --> 02:21:04.000 Well, that's--you posed an interesting question. Because we know the truth. And I thought it had changed, but maybe it hadn't because when I was in high school, a long time ago, taking American history, maybe it wasn't in the textbook, but I remember the teachers saying, you know, we estimate there were this many--they didn't use Indigenous peoples--Native Americans. There are this many Native Americans. And then, you know, the--had collapsed, the Vale of Tears March (Trail of Tears). We learned that stuff. And, the history is the history, you know, the missions, we all know what happened. The missions subjugated the Mission Indians and all that stuff. So, certainly, we need to know that. I think, my gosh, now this was in college, I took a course in Latin American history. And when the Spaniards first started coming into the Americas, there was a theological debate. And the theological debate was, “Are they human? Because if they're human, we need to save them,” which meant convert them to Christianity. And the only thing I would say about that is we've come a long way. We certainly need to know it. But I think to make it complete, we need to see the changes that have been wrought. And it needs to be comparative. If you were Indio in Mexico or Latin America, you know, they'll talk with pride. And I learned in Colombia, you know, we think of it all the same. They’re all different, right? The Colombianos do not particularly like the Mexicanos. And part of it is all the Americans think, you know, they're Mexicanos and they're not the Colombianos. And they would talk about “el orgullo de ser Mexicano,” which means “they’re arrogant” and they brag about, you know, their great history of the Aztecs and the Mayans. They don't get treated very well. And I'm not doing that to cast aspersions on them. What I'm saying is, look at the Europeans in Africa and Asia and the rest of it. There's something about human beings that tends to do that. And the question is, okay, “What is the history since then? How are we solving the problems?” Now in California and other places, the advent of gaming has done a lot because all of a sudden there's a lot more money. But all the tribes--I know a ton about this, Ryan, because you can't be in the state legislature. And I was on the relevant committee. I've been--I haven't been invaluable, but I've been in almost every one of them. And they're all different. The, you know, the tribal leaders are all different, then they can change. And some are, you know--and when I went up to my sister’s, I go right by Valley View, go right by Rincon. And if I turn left, I'd--you know. But so. I think it's really important to learn the history. But not, not that there's just one lesson, but there's a lot of lessons because humans--the, however you want to think how it happens, either it's something in us, or if you're Jewish or Christian in Genesis, we're fallen, we sinned and we're driven out of Eden. We're--you're in trouble now, you know, East of Eden. And women will bear children in pain. And the next thing you know, Cain slew Abel, his brother. And it's sort of whether it's that's what happened, that's what I believe, or it's a parable, I think the challenge for all civilization is “How do we overcome these things in the right way?” Does that make sense? 02:21:04.000 --> 02:21:05.000 Yes. 02:21:05.000 --> 02:22:22.000 But you do have to learn the truth. When I was in elementary school, we learned about the sharing and all that sort of thing. But in high school, you know, we got, we got the real thing. And then what do you do? And that's why I did the thing (oral history bill) on genocide because I said, “Well, there's these groups, but you can add in lots more.” And how do you stop it? And how do you get people--see, I think that's Western, for all our sins. How do you get people--it's western civilization that is able to say, “We need to see people and accord them respect as they're like us. It's not that easy. And I also know a lot about immigration and immigration into Europe and all these other things. It gets complicated. So yeah (both laugh). Well, and you know-- 02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:23.000 It's a heavy topic. I know. 02:22:23.000 --> 02:22:24.000 Well, it's an important one. 02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:25.000 It is. 02:22:25.000 --> 02:23:02.000 And, and, and, but here's the key. And I did have a bill, which I think I did as a resolution or something. Actually, I was looking through them, so I need to find some of it. It's important to learn it in that context. How many--I had thought that, well, when Cortez landed, you know, they rode in to--they rode into to, I think it was called Mexico. I've forgotten what the Capital was with the Aztecs and the chief Aztec said, “Oh my gosh, these are gods on horses.” 02:23:02.000 --> 02:23:03.000 Montezuma. 02:23:03.000 --> 02:23:18.000 Montezuma. I don't know, you may know this. I didn't. It took them years. And what they did was they built relationships with neighboring tribes that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. 02:23:18.000 --> 02:23:19.000 Right. 02:23:19.000 --> 02:23:23.000 Who had enslaved them and taken their kids for sacrifices. 02:23:23.000 --> 02:23:26.000 So they were more than willing--“Hey I’ll help you out.” 02:23:26.000 --> 02:26:38.000 So they were more than willing. And so how do you--in a world, when I was studying international relations, they call it IR for short. And it was the Cold War. And after 1962 and the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was very stable. But we thought it was dangerous. And it was, but not like now. So, what do you do in a world where the next biggest, some people would say bigger economy (China), is utterly totalitarian, where everyone has a social media score where they can take--same human thing. The Uyghurs aren't like us. Only ethnic Han Chinese get treated well while the Tibetans and all the rest, they are subjugated. How, and that's such a powerful country and getting more powerful. How do we maintain societies where rule of law isn't perfect, but people cared about the laws we passed? You know what, again, this is not dumping on Mexico, but I'll tell you a story that illustrates the conundrum. This was a professor of mine while we were negotiating NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And he had a conversation with--he was then Foreign Minister of Mexico. And I think he's a professor now, totally bicultural, American PhD. I'll think of his name. I can't think of it right now. Anyway, and they were still negotiating and the US was asking for more environmental guarantees. And he said to my friend, “You Americans don't get it. Because in America, law matters. Law doesn't matter in Mexico.” Give us all the guarantees you want. We'll sign them. It won't make any different. Now, that's not because Mexicans don't want--they don't want the cartels. They don't want--they want the same kind of democracy--which is imperfect--we have. But maybe you're the next generation and you're studying history. Maybe you can help us figure out how we can create more of this and at least maintain what we have. 02:26:38.000 --> 02:26:58.000 Yes, absolutely. I'm right there with you. Well, Mark, I can't thank you enough for your time and your candidness today. It has been extremely informative. It's been an honor to be able to speak with you. Before we close the interview, is there anything else you would like to add that we did not get to? 02:26:58.000 --> 02:28:46.000 Well, there may be, and I may have some stuff I can send you if you're interested. Because I started thinking through all of this and I appreciate it, Ryan, because not only are--number one, you're actually interested, which is great. Number two, you're going to teach, I hope, because I think you would be a good teacher. And it's been fun actually. And I didn't think I'd get so wound up (both laugh). But, you know, I'm trying to make it better. And gosh, the issue with Native Americans, I can't tell you that hours I have spent with all these issues in great depth. And they've had their, their challenges. And one of the interesting things about state government, once you take out national defense or a couple of things you're dealing with, actually there are many important issues that the federal government doesn't deal with. And in a state like California where it's a very activist legislature and government, you really deal with a huge number of things. So anyway. Well, I appreciate it and I appreciate you letting me talk about my plan to fix it all (laughs). I still see the world the way it could be. 02:28:46.000 --> 02:28:50.000 Right. No, and I admire that. We need more people like you honestly, that think in that way. 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:51.000 Well-- 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:58.000 So, I know, I really appreciate it. So thank you for everything that you have done and continue to try to do. Because I think it's very admirable. 02:28:58.000 --> 02:29:42.000 Well, I really appreciate that and I appreciate--you can't do it without help and support because people want that. People deserve--I'm not one of those who says, “Well, they voted the wrong way. They deserve it.” No, people deserve feeling good about their government, being able to say, “Well, I didn't agree with everything, but you know, they're trying to do the right thing.” And right now we don't have that. And I think this is one way to restore it. And I couldn't do it, even think about it if I didn't think people think, yeah, let's do that. 02:29:42.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Yeah. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:45.000 So anyway, well— 02:29:45.000 --> 02:29:46.000 Really Concur. 02:29:46.000 --> 02:29:48.000 I enjoyed this (laughs). 02:29:48.000 --> 02:30:02.000 I did as well. I think anybody that's going to check this interview out's going to really enjoy it. I learned a lot. And that's, I think, really the ultimate goal. So Mark, thank you again so much for joining me today at the California State University San Marcos Library. And I will now stop the recording. 02:30:02.000 --> 02:30:04.000 Okay. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-38 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (California) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tanis Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy Wheeler OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. photojournalism;education;college;administration;agriculture;gender OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. SC027-045 00:39:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Family farms--California ; Photography ; Adult students ; Education, Higher ; Oral history photojournalism ; education ; college ; administration ; agriculture ; gender Lucy Wheeler Tanis Brown mp4 WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d8c14513d98ce9e8b8309f763c8fe46.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview of Lucy Wheeler by Tanis Brown and Charlie Colladay, April 28, 2023. Interview conducted at San Marcos Historical Society. 0 97 Post-retirement, education, and the gift of gab Wheeler discusses moving to San Marcos after retirement at the age of 80 and discovering photography through classes at Palomar College. Wheeler also touches on what she did before retirement, and how she discovered her “gift of gab,” especially for interviewing others, through going to back to school at Nazarene College. Palomar College ; Nazarene College ; photography 0 417 Photography Wheeler discusses in more detail her coursework in photography and her return to college which she illuminates through an encounter at a skate park. Wheeler also discusses the art of interviewing in further detail, and recounts a lesson she learned along those lines from a photography class. photography ; interviewing ; skate parks ; Sam Hodgins 0 822 Connecting the dots Wheeler discusses her concept behind her business card which states, “Connecting the dots,” and idea that originated from a man who worked with dementia patients and helped them connect the dots to their pasts. dementia ; memory 0 978 Technology, the pandemic, and Wheeler’s past Wheeler discusses her work for a medical laboratory in 1965, and how she learned to view and love technology as a tool. Wheeler ties those lessons to what carried her through the pandemic. Sperry Rand ; Control Data ; Covid-19 pandemic 0 1218 San Diego County’s para-farms and family farms Wheeler recounts being raised on a farm and San Diego County’s farming conditions. Wheeler outlines where her interest in documenting local farms arose during the pandemic, and discusses some of the para-farms’ farmers that she’s interviewed. para-farms ; family farms ; Yasukochi Farm ; Neil Nagata ; Rodriguez Farm ; Joe Rodriguez ; Susan Cupaiuolo ; Primavera Orchard ; cherimoya farming ; Covid-19 pandemic ; San Diego Food System Alliance 0 1801 Oral history Wheeler discusses the insights she’s learned about oral history and conducting a successful interview. oral history ; research 0 1947 Next projects Wheeler elaborates on her plans to expand her oral history work to look towards the future of San Diego farming, her “energy budget,” and her priorities for her future. Wheeler wraps up by discussing what she has learned about using her “gift of gab.” San Diego Food Alliance ; future of farming 0 oral history Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Okay. Good morning. This is April 28th, 2023. My name is Tanis Brown. I’m being assisted by Charlie Colladay on the camera this morning, and we are part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Lucy Wheeler is not only a member of our cohort, but she has also agreed to be an interviewee. So, we are very thankful, Lucy, that you’re willing to speak with us today. And I met you about a year ago when you stopped by the San Marcos Historical Society and brought some pictures of a famous artist from San Marcos. His name is Ted Wade. And you started to telling me about your experiences once you moved to San Marcos. And you handed me a little card introducing yourself. It said “Connecting the dots” which just was so intriguing to me. And then we had an exchange, and you were enthralled by getting involved with the Oral History Project. So, I’d like you to talk to our audience about how you got interested in conducting oral histories way before our project and some of the things that you’ve done since you came to San Marcos. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Thank you so much for having me. It’s my pleasure to have been part of this program. The way I got started was I believe that everyone has been given a gift and thank goodness they’re not all the same because it brings different pictures to a project. And my gift, I think, was a gift of gab. And in this, back in the 1900s, 1930s, women weren’t supposed to do all this exploring and curiosity things. So, I kind of put a lid on that gift of gab and I prattled day and night. It took me a good number of years before I realized that I did have a voice, and once I found it and what I really wanted to say, I prattled less and listened more. And this is kind of how it evolved. And when I came to San Marcos, I had just retired at 80, and I thought I’ve carried this camera around with me all over. I’m going to go back and take better pictures. The first assumption from probably my classmates, but certainly people that I was photographing, was she must be coming back to take better pictures of her great-grandchildren. And that wasn’t the case. The case was to take better pictures and as I began to do that, I began to shut up and listen more and look more. And through this process—and I would like to say that it is not a matter of age, of when we discover what that gift is. It could start back in our 40s. It could—the 60s. Mine happened to be after I was 80 when I went back to school. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.000 And where did you go to school, Lucy? 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.000 I have a degree in Business Administration from University of Minnesota. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Okay. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:05:26.000 And through an evolutionary process, I worked as a management consultant for Fortune 500 companies, and I’ve been in all 50 states and from the North Pole to the South Pole. I lived in Japan a couple of years. And through all of this, I’d had this mantra of “just keep moving.” Then I began to really listen and see that there’s stories. Everybody has a story. Everybody has characteristics and traits that they’d like to look for. And I’ve discovered that mine is actually interviewing. And it was through the help of Dean Nelson who is the head of the Journalist Department at Nazarene College. And he had just published a book at the beginning of Covid. Thank goodness he signed it for me. And I’ve been, through the last couple of years, taking classes through Zoom and keeping—working on it. So, I stepped into your offer at a perfect time and now my goal is to ask better questions so that when I’m asking the people that I’m interviewing, ask them the questions that will really make them talk about their true story, not the one that was—we all have kind of a fake story—but looking for that real story in people. That’s my goal. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:40.000 So, what I’m hearing you saying is that once you moved to San Marcos and found some educational opportunities—and I think you told me you went to Palomar College for photography class? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:06:57.000 Oh yes. That’s where I began to really explore that creativity and getting rid of the old ideas that just because I had a camera doesn’t—at my age—doesn’t mean that I’m just taking pictures of my family or my kids. I do street photography for the Chamber of Commerce here in San Marcos. Been doing that for about 4 or 5 years now. And I’ve been involved in that. My characteristic or habits of exploring were kind of construed as masculine traits back in the 20s and 30s. And not to express—Well, all of a sudden, I am expressing. And I think, for a while, where I live here viewed me as a likeable tomboy. (Tanis chuckles) And now, I’m not. I’m just this loveable little old lady who is curious and adventuresome and turning it all into a better perspective where I listen more and talk less. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:12.000 So, going back to school in your 80s, how many of your classmates—Did you have study groups or go on field trips or anything like that to hone your craft? 00:07:12.000 --> 00:08:42.000 No. No. We had assignments that we were to go out and—like one was speed, just to photograph in proper way. And this was very unique. I went to a skateboard place. And this gentleman who was very well dressed and saw me with my camera had a little grandson with him. And he had a designer cap on, a little tricycle, and he was following his grandfather around. So, the gentleman came over to me and he said, “Excuse me. What are you going to do with those pictures?” And I said, “Oh. I’m taking a class, and the assignment is speed.” He said, “Well, if my son ever saw him on Facebook, he’d kill me.” And I said, “Really? Well, I’m not taking them. I’m taking them, the speed of these” who were really good skaters, just flying through the air with the skateboard. So, a little bit later, he came over and asked me, he said “So, you’re going to Palomar.” And most of my class, I would say 50% of us were older people who were looking for just honing a skill, something that they would really do. Most of them were people that were looking for to go out and hike in the desert, you know, and walk all night and wait for the sun to come up on the right spot. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 Ahh. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:10:13.000 But that wasn’t my intent. Anyway, he came over and he said, “So, you went back to college.” He said, “Hhmmm. The other day—” He said, “I’ve been retired now for about a year.” And he said, “The other day I went in to get a cup of coffee and my wife said, ‘Get out of my kitchen!’” (Tanis laughs) And he said, “What do I do now (shrugs) I’m retired and I don’t have anything really doing. I never thought of going back to college.” So, it’s exploring what’s available to us. And I’ll never forget how he was like “What do I do now?” (shrugs) And I see so many of my peers that are like “I don’t know how to get on Zoom. I don’t know how to handle Covid.” It has been a very upsetting time, and things are confused on any level. So, that was kind of the beginning of accepting my wonder and curiosity. And creativity was also considered back in the 2000s, well, especially during the Great Depression. Because survival was what you looked for. Curiosity was a waste of time. Buck up! And get out there and, you know, get the work done. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Okay. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.000 So— 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:35.000 So, in addition to going to Palomar and taking photography and then, as I understand it, during the pandemic you got involved in interviewing or honing your interviewing skills. Now, tell me about how that got started. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:13:42.000 Well, there was a gentleman who is now I think the head of the photography department of the Union Tribune. His name was Sam Hodgkins. He had a workshop down at Balboa Park. And I was going to take an interviewing kind of class, of photography, photojournalism. And what he did was he told us about how you go out and you interview people out in the street, the vendors. And in that class, there was I think about 12 of us, 12 or 14, but there were 3 or 4 engineers. They were perfectionists when it came to the photography, but they didn’t know how to talk to people. I went out and with my gift of gab, “Hi. What’s your first name?” (Tanis chuckles) And I came back, and I had four. But there was one lady who was getting ready, and she had a keyboard. And she was getting ready to put it up and I said, “Oh!” The sun was just perfect on the keyboard. And the background was back, but her hands on the keyboard. And I interviewed her, and I asked her, she said “Well, I’m working my way through college, City College. And this is my way of making money, is with the tips.” And so, I went back, and we had to show these pictures. And I showed mine with the keyboard. And Sam said, “Whose picture is this?” And I said, “It’s mine.” (raises her finger and has a sheepish look on her face) And he said, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about. When you’re interviewing, get the photo that draws people in to asking the questions.” And I said, “Do you think I could make a living at this?” (both chuckle) And he laughed. And soon after that, in the photojournalism class, I had to interview a person who was doing what he was doing. So, I interviewed him. And we did it at the new public library downtown. And then, he and his wife—he’d just gotten married—went to Brooklyn, New York, and she was a writer, a journalist. And he was the photographer. And quite often, like in The Tribune even, you’ll have a photographer and then you’ll have a storyteller on a different aspect of it. But I kind of liked the fact that I can go out and take photos of the vendors, those candid moments that you try to get, and then ask them the right questions. And the more I practiced, the better it is. So, this was a great opportunity for growth for me, when I met you. But that’s how it all got started. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:14:04.000 That’s great. Well, your business card says, “Connecting the dots” and I think that’s a perfect description of what you do. And you talked to me a little bit about where that idea came from. You want to share that again? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Um, I’m not sure. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:14.000 The man you met at the dementia-- 00:14:14.000 --> 00:16:18.000 Oh! Yes. There was a gentleman who had worked with dementia people, and they were used to him. And he note—And he was there, and they were comfortable with his being there. So, they just kind of assumed that he was part of the woodwork. But he observed that as the family would come to visit the people with dementia, they might not know their spouse. They might not know their children. But if they were given a photo of themselves when they were young, like 17, maybe after they’d been in the service, that they would light up and just say “Ah. That! I know! I recognize that.” So, then he began to have them pose in front of like a sink if they’re washing their face. One gentleman had a smile on his face because he saw himself as a member of the service in World War II. So, he then imposed that photo of him, when he was young, into the mirror. So, he was seeing himself as young. Another one was a lady who was a nurse. And she was also getting dressed. But behind her was a different nurse, probably a therapist that was holding a walker. And the lady is looking in the mirror, of herself as a nurse, thinking “I should be the one that’s doing that because that was my job.” And you could see the confusion on her face in both of those pictures. Another was a pharmacist who was stirring his little cup of coffee and he saw himself as a pharmacist stirring, when he was young. So, I thought, you don’t really have to have dementia to remember that. So, I started practicing in that and it was enjoyable. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:41.000 So, the other thing I am really fascinated about is that, during the pandemic, that you took a wherewithal to look into continuing your education on Zoom. (Lucy chuckles) And so, how did you go about finding all these classes on interviewing or asking the right question? 00:16:41.000 --> 00:19:15.000 Well, I was fortunate in that I was in a—I was working in a medical laboratory in 1965. And at that time—it was in Minneapolis, which is where I had my degree in Business—they decided they were going to automate the laboratories. Sperry Rand and Control Data were both there. And at that time, there were more Fortune 500 companies in Minneapolis than any other city. That’s not the case now. But they were going to automate this laboratory. And this young man, probably 30, 35, was working for Sperry Rand and he said, “I know you people are really scared you’ll lose your job and there won’t be a need for you. But” he said, “this is just a tool. Technology is a tool. And it’s meant to help you, as a tool. What it can’t do is it can’t see the beautiful sunset where the Mississippi River and the Minnesota River come together. It can’t see the shoreline. It can’t see the sunsets. It’s just a tool.” I fell in love with technology then. And through my career as a management consultant then, I really came to appreciate more and more. I had my first computer when it was still a DOS. And quite different than it is now, much bigger. But I kept up with it and became kind of addicted to Windows. Now, I’ve changed to a iPhone because of Steve Jobs and his introduction to the school systems (Tanis laughs). But, and that’s another learning curve, switching from Windows to the iPhone. At any rate, then I was pretty much aware of the technology and its value when Covid hit. And I immediately was on to this whole thing. That was how I met Dean Nelson, any number of groups that would get—and you can talk to them and discuss things. And it was wonderful. It really carried me through the two years. I was not isolated because of that. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:25.000 That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, truly, you know we talk about lifelong learners, and I certainly think that you are a perfect example of a lifelong learner! 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000 Well— 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000 And a lesson for all of us. 00:19:28.000 --> 00:20:15.000 —I think that all of us need to stop and look at what our gifts are and learn to develop them earlier. I’m grateful that I did. It all worked out in a constructive way. But we all have them. And it’s not everybody who is going to be an interviewer. A lot of people are really very, very creative. That has nothing to do with that. You don’t have to be an extrovert (both chuckle) in order to do that. So, I would encourage people to stop and think about the moment, not the future, not the past. But what do I want to have happen? 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000 What do I want to express? 00:20:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000 So, I’d like to move our interview into now, once we got involved with this North County Oral History project. And during our first class—and we talked about our assignment and going out and interviewing at least two, and maybe three, people—you immediately knew exactly what direction you wanted to go in. And it was with the farming industry. And I was amazed because a lot of us that were in the class were kind of ticking off who might we interview. But you were really driven to capture some stories of people in the farming industry. So, I’m wondering how, where did that interest come from, Lucy? 00:21:20.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Well, I was raised on the farm in the Midwest. But I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to be there. (Tanis chuckles) It was isolated. It was, you know, not a—They needed men for the work of the farm. But the one interesting thing about this area is San Diego is the ninth largest city in the United States. But within its county, it has more farms—and especially para-farms—than any other county in the United States. That’s an unusual situation. I also know that it has 23 different kinds of soil that grows one thing on one area and then 10 miles down the road something else is better. They found that flowers and strawberries love the ocean whereas olive trees don’t. But inland, olive trees are great because the soil is different. The moisture is different. And, at the same time, there’s a crisis right now in our expensive way of living that developers want to develop the land rather than grow crops. And they would like to have condos instead of strawberries. So, it has put all of us into a very precarious situation about what’s the future of farming here. So, in order to know the past, present, and future, what better way than to go and look at the history. And, because I hang out at farmer’s markets—and in 2017 there were 5000 para-farms, which means 10 acres or less. They’re due to do a survey next year, 2014 (2024). This is done by the Farm Bureau. And I’d already been to their yearly groups and the Farm Bureau and that, and all of the farmer’s markets. And then when Vista was the only market that never closed during the pandemic. And he stood up to them and said, “If the grocery stores are open, we’re open.” And there were some vendors that came too. So, I had an inroad. So, I went back to a couple of vendors and started just curiously saying “Where did your farm start?” And I chose, first of all, the one that has the strawberry farm. And Mr. Nagata whose family came here in 1902 and was able to buy land at that time, and he married the Yasukochi family who were famous for their—everything from CSA. And their son, Neil Nagata, is the Farmer of the Year this year, here in San Diego County. Then I looked a little further and there was a farm up in north Escondido, close to Temecula, that is the Rodriguez farm. And they migrated here from Mexico in 1923. And I interviewed Joe Rodriguez who is the third generation of five in their farm. And then the third one was—and I have trouble with the last name on this because the gentleman was Italian, Capo-- (Cupaiuolo) 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.000 C. Susan C! (both laugh) 00:25:32.000 --> 00:30:01.000 Right! Exactly. And he passed away in 2020. But they had, he and his wife, had about 20 years of very successful cherimoya (sic) orchard which is very unusual and unique. And, as a side note, cherimoyas are only grown in San Diego County and Orange County. They won’t grow anywhere else in the United States because of the soil conditions and the moisture. But, at any rate, he passed away in 2020. So, I interviewed his wife. And she told about how they were able to make a construct of this. And this very representative, six acres, and very representative of how these farms that are under 10 acres can survive. And a lot of them didn’t during the Covid. They didn’t know how to market. They didn’t know how to sell their products. Their audience was gone. Instead of “Here’s my tomatoes I grew” where do the people come when the markets weren’t even open? So, there was a lot of things that her husband had contributed in that knowledge. He did a lot of work with Frazier Farms and promoted the cherimoyas (sic). And they had backups of ways that they survived. It was very, very interesting. And it was through this past adventure kind of thing that I’d been doing anyway that I continued then with that and pursued it, and fortunately found three families that had immigrated as well. So, as the techs from Cal State are doing these hashtags, you can look at it from immigrants that began farming. And especially the Rodriguez family was very interested in—because they’ve gone organic. And organic is a special kind of treatment that they have to go through to get their soil fertilized. It’s very costly. And yet he wants to promote now that he’s getting older. He would like to retire and just help younger people become interested in growing. Right now, the kids don’t want to be farmers. The immigrants don’t want to be farmers. Mr. Nagata told me that if they have to pay $15 an hour for minimum wage now to have people pick strawberries, they can’t afford, in this day and age, to sell wholesale. So, these things are all building up as to how they did it ; what we’re in the crisis with right now ; and then, with this San Diego Food System Alliance, look at new ways of developing foods that maybe we’ve never thought of before. Hydroponic (sic) gardening is one. There’s a few others—turning like—going against, not against, but seeing that milk products with cheese and that sort of thing maybe isn’t as productive for our own health as maybe almond milk that has plant-based cheese. And that’s scary to some people to think “Oh, my goodness. You know, let’s go back to the olden days.” (Tanis chuckles) And things change. No matter who we are or where we’re going. Attitudes change. Opinions change. Now, everybody has one whereas 70 years ago, no, you didn’t do that. So, it has been a really exciting time. I really love being out there and just talking to people about how did you do this and what do we do now? And where are my great-grandchildren going to go eat their lunch? 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Yeah. I’m curious because you seem so well-versed in understanding kind of the food production and history and future, is there anything through the interviews that you learned that surprised you? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Um, not surprised me so much. But it brought out how do you ask better questions to get answers from people? In the storytelling process, the interviewing process, which is my thing, you have to learn to listen, and then think about it. And I made a couple of mistakes. But sometimes you have to make the mistakes to realize that that’s another growing experience, you know. Like “Oh, maybe I could have done that better. How can I do that better?” And ask a better question in a better way. 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Mm-hmm. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000 That’s what I think I’ve learned the most. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:30.000 Yeah. So, for anybody who’s listening to this interview and might consider either being interviewed or interviewing someone, how would you recommend or promote the idea of participating in oral histories? 00:31:30.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Well, I think if they know what their interest is—and mine just happened to be agriculture—but whatever it might be, do all the homework you can. Do the research of what do I need to know to ask the right questions to get to my point? The whole purpose of an interview is what’s the point? And if the point is to make a better understanding so we can build on the future, great. Whatever that avenue might be, do your homework. And one of the best sources is Madame Librarian. They are great at helping you see sources. They know how to get on the internet and dig deep. And the deeper you dig, the more insight you get about asking the right questions. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:44.000 Well, that’s great. So, as we wind down this interview, I would like to ask what’s next for Lucy Wheeler? (Lucy chuckles) What do you have brewing in your mind about where you go from here, Lucy? 00:32:44.000 --> 00:35:59.000 Last year, when we started this project, it was in September I believe? And right after that, the San Diego Food System Alliance had their second big global kind of meeting. And they met over at Escondido at the Center. And I went to it. And all of a sudden, I was in rooms with these future-thinking farmers of saying “I don’t even understand the language” because they had different speakers and different ways of presenting. And that’s when I started to say I need to dig deeper. So, I’m digging deeper into how this Alliance now is viewing the food system that they’re imagining. And part of it has gotten involved with the climate part. They’re trying to draw in it as well as drawing in all nationalities, not just one, and trying to understand it more global, really raise the arena. And I’d like to be part of that. And I had asked them when I went to it. It was just a few weeks after we’d started. And they just sent me, the next one will be in October. And they will be discussing this, and I’ll have a much better language to use by the time I go to that. And I don’t—I have—One of the things that happens as you get older is you don’t have the energy you had when you were 20 or 30. So, I have my energy budget more in focus on how I can put that into my future. And for however long. None of us know how long we’re going to live, you know, if it’s going to be tomorrow or 20 years from now. But, in that interim, I plan to just keep doing that kind of thing because it interests me and it’s my reason for getting up in the morning. But I don’t have the energy to spend all day on it. It’s putting it into priorities. And that’s one of my priorities, is that goal of being interested in what might I contribute to this. And we can. We just don’t think we can. We get caught up in our own thoughts of the past. And we don’t open our imagination. And these people are opening the imagination of what can be possible, maybe more healthy. I’m not sure. 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:26.000 More healthy. So, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about your educational process and your taking what you’ve learned and actually doing something about it in our little interview? Is there anything that I missed that you would like to tell our audience? 00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:58.000 No. I think that’s pretty much it. As we get older, things get into a different perspective like the energy. But there’s still the priority of what’s important to us. And one of the things that’s really important to me is to be able to feel like that I could contribute something. And that just means digging deeper. Not worry about my toe hurt when I was two. (Tanis laughs) 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:07.989 All right. So, just to clarify, what year did you come to San Marcos? 00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:08.000 2010. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.000 2010. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:57.000 So, the last 13 years have been dedicated to really honing in on something that I always wanted to do all my life. I think I was born with the gift of gab. I just didn’t know how to use it. And it took me a lot of years to figure out that it’s pretty nice to listen. And if you really stop to think about it, when you’re talking about the weather or you’re talking about the neighbor, it’s not always focused on what our traits or skills could be, what the energy level could be. It’s a distraction. And, yeah, I think listen more and talk less. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:12.000 All right. Well, this has been a pleasure for me to have you share this with our audience and be part of the collection at Cal State San Marcos. So, thank you so much. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000 I have enjoyed it to the hilt. 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.000 Great. Okay, enjoy, Lucy. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000 Thank you. 00:38:19.000 --> 00:39:22.000 Take care. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brian Bilbray OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Tijuana;San Diego;Borderlands;Politics;Congressman OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. SC027-056 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm Environmentalism and politics Politics and government--21st century Borderlands Mexican-American Border Region Water rights--United States Water rights--Mexico Metropolitan government Politics and government--20th century Environmentalism and politics--California--San Diego Environmentalism and politics--Mexico--Tijuana United States. Congress. House Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Tijuana ; San Diego ; Borderlands ; Politics ; Congressman Brian Bilbray Riccardo Savo 1.0:|19(17)|34(6)|46(17)|62(10)|76(5)|95(5)|111(17)|123(15)|139(3)|155(10)|171(12)|182(13)|195(5)|210(5)|223(3)|235(9)|246(5)|260(12)|273(4)|287(4)|300(13)|312(10)|325(15)|339(16)|353(6)|364(12)|376(5)|387(12)|399(5)|413(3)|425(13)|436(13)|448(12)|458(6)|473(12)|485(10)|504(6)|518(14)|529(16)|541(15)|554(4)|567(7)|579(14)|589(14)|603(5)|614(15)|628(9)|644(13)|655(16)|667(6)|680(3)|690(15)|701(13)|712(9)|724(9)|738(3)|752(3)|762(14)|777(8)|789(5)|803(3)|814(9)|827(6)|841(7)|855(13)|866(13)|881(8)|895(11)|905(16)|919(9)|932(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b761005e2c7ce7501e9da0e69bfc90a2.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Congressman Brian Bilbray and Riccardo Savo introduce themselves and discuss what it was like for Congressman Bilbray to grow up in San Diego's South County, next to the border with Mexico. Birthplace ; Childhood ; Mexico ; San Diego ; Coronado ; Imperial Beach 0 240 Beginning in Politics Congressman Bilbray discusses how he began his political career. Along the way, Congressman Bilbray explains that he had to navigate the political landscape in a way that was analogous to surfing. Politics ; Dana Rohrabacher 0 363 Accension from Mayor of Imperial Beach to House of Representatives Congressman Bilbray discusses the driving factors that led him to successfully run as a Republican congressman including his college degrees and experience. Congressman Bilbray also discusses his previous experience as a lifeguard prior to politics. Law Enforcement ; Lifeguard 0 639 First Term as a Congressional Representative - Environmental Policies Congressman Bilbray discusses how his early political experiences as a city and county politician provided him with the expertise to form environmental policy in Congress. Congressman Bilbray sponsored numerous environmental bills that had a significant impact on San Diego and South Bay. Smog ; Smog Reduction Act ; Environment ; Tijuana ; Borderland 0 1030 Navigating Environmental Groups and the Border Areas Congressman Bilbray talks about how he helped to create the Otay Mountain Wilderness area and how he worked with groups like Green Peace throughout his career. Congressman Bilbray also talks about how the international border can be an obstacle when trying to work with multiple groups and agencies. Otay Mountain Wilderness Area ; Otay ; Frotnera ; Border ; Borderlands 0 1840 Challenging Authority - Second Term in Congress Congressman Bilbray talks about how there is a responsibility to speak up when you see something that isn't right. He also says that just because someone in authority says you can't do something does not make it correct. This mentality directly led Congressman Bilbray to run for a second, non-consecutive, term in Congress. San Diego ; Federal Government ; Healthcare ; Science ; Air Resources Board 0 2184 Tijuana Sewage Management Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with multiple agencies and passed multiple bills to address the sewage crisis. Bob Simmons ; Environment ; Sewage ; Tijuana 0 2926 Working with Bob Filner Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with Bob Filner. Bob Filner ; Sexual Harassment 0 3032 Reaching Across the Aisle Congressman Bilbray talks about how bipartisan legislation is essential to getting things done in politics. bipartisan legislation ; Democrats ; Republicans 0 3371 Local Government and Ideal Changes in Imperial Beach Congressman Bilbray talks about what he would like to see happen in Imperial Beach to improve the lives of people living there. He also talks about the importance of proper consultation by subject matter experts and following facts when proposing legislation. Imperial Beach ; Politics ; Environment 0 3778 Being in the Right Place to Change Things Congressman Bilbray talks about the California REAL I.D. and how some of his legislation did not pass. Congressman Bilbray also talks about going against his own party to convince them to pass legislation. REAL I.D. ; Immigration ; 9/11 0 4210 Outro and End of Interview 0 Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Riccardo Savo: So, formality. Today is April 3rd, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at Cal State San Marcos. I'm interviewing Congressman Brian Bilbray for the University Library Special Collections Oral [History Internship] Project. Mr. Bilbray, thank you very much for being here with me today. Brian Bilbray: Honored to be with you. Savo: No, it's definitely an honor and privilege here. I would just like to begin very broadly, if you could just, you know, tell me a little bit of background, a little bit about your background here in San Diego County. I understand that you're a Coronado native, and, you know, a lot of the issues that you ran as a politician concerned about the environment. How was your experience in Coronado? How did that affect your transition or your, your risk taking in politics Bilbray: For the record, I'm an Imperial Beach. Savo: Imperial Beach. Bilbray: I was born in Coronado, actually at North Island, which wasn't technically part of Coronado at that time. But when I was chairman of San Diego County, I had that part of North Island annexed to Coronado, so I could claim I was born in Coronado. But no, I was actually born and raised in Imperial Beach, a block from the Pacific Ocean. Two houses separated my childhood home, uh, and the Mexican border. I had to go about 50 yards, maybe 40, 35 yards to go to the Tijuana estuary. And that's where I played, beaches, literally, I had the luckiest thing in the world. I literally grew up on the edge. On the edge with Mexico, and the edge, with the Pacific Ocean. So when I talked to my, my cousins in Australia, I could always explain where I live, because anywhere in the world, you just say, “You know where the Pacific Ocean is?" and “You know where the border is between Mexico and the U.S.?” Well, right where they meet is where I live and I'm growing up. Savo: That's awesome. Bilbray: . My mother was an Australian tennis player and accountant, and my parents, um, there was a temporary use of a hotel for General MacArthur, and my parents met there, and my father was a naval officer who actually was from southern Alabama. A place called Monroeville, where To Kill a Mockingbird was written. And he went to an orphanage in Mobile and got into the Navy, and they actually met, and in 1944, my mother came to the United States as the first group of war brides. In fact, she was very proud that she was the first Australian war bride to get her citizenship. So interesting mixture. But that Australian background with a, with an American, a kind of working-class background, kind of made me who I am. Savo: You mentioned once in an interview that you compared surfing to politics. You know, if you wanna ride a wave, you have to take a risk. Could you speak to how those hobbies and, and that childhood background, how did that translate when you were running for [San Diego] city council? What, what… how would I say it? What, motivated you to, to join city council? Bilbray: Well, first of all. Savo: Especially at a young age, Bilbray: You know, surfing starting, I started surfing at third grade, and I'm, interesting story that, when I ran for the city council at 25, 24 [years old], there was a man that lived on my block who I asked him, if “You'd consider voting for me?” And he says, “I'll vote for you no matter what. I've watched you your whole life.” And he says, “I remember you dragging a balsa wood board over your shoulder, dragging the board to the beach and back every day, and you look like Christ going to the Calvary.” And he said, “if you were determined enough as a third grader to do that, I think you ought to go to the city council.” But, the surfing analogy in life is just so clear, it’s that you get out of it what you put into it, but you've got to invest the hard work. And you've got to basically, put yourself in a position where opportunity may come along. And so you're not guaranteed to catch any wave, but you're guaranteed you're never gonna catch a wave if you're not willing to get in the cold water, struggle against the waves, and then sit and wait for the wave at the right time, and then the execution. So, a lot of this opportunity, a lot of it’s perseverance. And one of the things about surfing that a lot of people don't understand is, unlike skiing and a lot of other things, you can't see what you're going to do. You have to imagine the wave breaking to get in the right spot. And so, a lot of this is having the imagination to perceive what is going to happen and be in the right place at the right time with the right talents and the right tools to be able to take advantage of it. And to be able to, you know, accomplish anything with it. And so that, in a little way, I think that applies to all life, but in politics, it just happens to be a little higher profile. Savo: Okay. Bilbray: Oh, by the way. -- Savo: Yes. Bilbray: One of the lines I always said to Dana Rorabacher, which was a guy from Huntington Beach. He would not endorse me for Congress until I went up to Huntington Beach and surfed with him. And he just said, then he said,” Why are you so much a better surfer than I am?” And I said, “Dana, I've been doing it a lot longer than you have, but you surf like your politics, you only go to the right. There's a whole left to a wave. So, if you're willing to just catch the good wave, sometimes you go to the left and sometimes you go to the right.” And I think he took the analogy appropriately [laughs] Savo: That’s great. So, I'm curious to learn about how you went from becoming mayor and then ascending to the House of Representatives. You know, you first represented the 50th district and the 52nd, I believe. Bilbray: 49th and then the 50th. Savo: 50th. My apologies. Could you talk about that ascent for me briefly, if you could? Bilbray: I actually got involved with politics, because I was a lifeguard. And the whole ocean was always very much a big part of my life. But being down there, the clash between law enforcement and the kids on the street, and you had drug dealing in Imperial Beach. But then the law enforcement almost approached it as if everybody who was longhaired and young was involved in this. And I actually got involved with getting groups together to work with the police and get the police to meet the kids and the kids. So that, you know, knowledge is the most important thing law enforcement has. And as a lifeguard, that gave me a good position of someplace where I could, um, that I was neither fish nor fowl. I was sort of in between the law enforcement and the kids on the beach. Bilbray: They were used to lifeguards being around. We weren't a threat. That ended up getting me involved with it. And, when I was 24 years old, actually was 23! I was appointed as a human relations commissioner by the city. And then at 24, I was asked after a rescue where I, had a girl around my neck and I had to do a in-water resuscitation on a young lady. In fact, I always remember how blue she was. I didn't, I really didn't believe we, I had a chance to save her. She was face down and I ended up resuscitating and going-- didn't get any response to her, in her vitals. But halfway to the hospital after the EMTs picked her up, she was… survived. What I didn't know at that time was, we do rescues, like a lot of rescues not in the water resuscitations like that, but we do a lot of it. Bilbray: And you never think about, it's just another rescue. But what happened this time was there happened to be a local newspaper photographer taking pictures of the beach, and he had a whole series of this rescue. So, then the city gave me a big award for saving it. And then people started saying, “He ever thought about getting involved in politics?” And my family had been involved in the formation of the city and a couple recalls. So, as a young, younger person. I sat through meetings and when my father died, my father died when I was in 10th grade. I kind of got mom into the political scene as a way to keep her busy as a high school student. And that sort of led to people thinking comfortable that they could try to talk this young, you know, 24-year-old running for the city council. And I was elected to the city council just after my 25th birthday, a couple months after my 25th birthday. Savo: Wow. And I'm assuming that's like probably around March? Bilbray: April. Savo: April. Oh. So, then… Bilbray: The elections were, separated in those days. And I mean local elections were able to be placed any time they wanted to. Savo: Okay. So this had all happened after the fact that you had attended Southwestern and everything? Bilbray: Yeah. I actually, what happened was, I was a history major with a theater arts minor. Like I say quite freely, I wanted to be a history professor, but I couldn't pull the academics, so I got stuck in Congress instead. But the theater, really the history background with a theater minor really did help me in politics. I mean, in fact, there's a lot of camera crews for TV stations here in town that always, still, jack me up for telling them, “Well, now do you want to get this angle of the light?” [laughs] I would set up the shots because I was used to it. But I'm, I think that it helps to some degree to understand presentation. And not in debate. I think a lot of [the] problem [with] people in politics thinks debates, what's really important Message is a lot more than arguing. Savo: It's all about the understanding, the knowledge, the whole presentation as well. But, you know, it's, it's having that mindset or having that expertise. Bilbray: Yeah. Savo: So I'm curious to learn about your first term as a congressman in the House of Representatives. You authored, sponsored numerous pieces of legislation that not only pertained to the local environment, but also to our border. You introduced the Border Smog Reduction Act of 1998. Could you tell me a little bit about that? How were you able to garner support within the House to do so? And did you work with other local representatives to achieve that? Bilbray: Well, first really, my years in local government gave me a real background that most people in Washington don't have. I served on the California Coastal Commission. I was able to, I served on the Air Resources Board for the state of California, the notorious CARP working with some of the best scientists in the world. And legislators don't have this kind of exposure. I served on the Air District for San Diego County and so, a lot of the technical stuff that you pick up in local administration, you would never be able to have in almost any other field. And so I was, I had worked as a mayor because of the Tijuana sewage problem. I had, you know, 45 million gallons of raw sewage pouring into my city in 1980. And I was aware of that. Bilbray: But the Air Resources Board and the Air District, I sponsored the Smog Reduction Act because you had a situation to where the federal government was requiring that if somebody worked in a non-attainment area, an area where it's polluted like L.A., San Diego, that if you commuted into a non-attainment area, you had to have your car smogged in that non-attainment area. So that was a law. So somebody coming from humor or something would have to do it. Well, the same government that was requiring that the locals do this, were controlling the international border, and waving people in every day that didn't have their car smogged. And so we ended up in a situation in south San Diego, uh, the South Bay that you had Imperial Beach that might have had a real pollution problem when it came to water, but we had the cleanest air in San Diego County. Bilbray: And, because we didn't get hit with what they call the Catalina eddy, where L.A. smog would come out during the night and then blow down on North County and pollute the northern part. Our air, Imperial Beach was very clean, but two miles away, three miles away at San Ysidro we had the dirtiest spot in the county. And that was because of the traffic, the operation of the border, and the fact that we weren't getting the smogging going down. And I got exposed working on that problem. I got exposed to groups like Honeywell's Remote Sensing, where they were identifying that the stop and go traffic was a major pollution problem. And I mean, right to this day, you have no one pushing to have stop signs taken out. Bilbray: We’re talking about doing all these billion-dollar projects and all these great little environmental projects but, just going to traffic circles instead of traffic lights, going to yield signs instead of stop signs, huge reduction in air emissions, and nobody talks about it. It's totally blind. But because I worked on that border smog as a local government guy, I then was in the position that when I got to Washington, I knew the problem, I knew the technicalities and, and pushed that. And what's interesting about the Border Smog Reduction Act, we did not have one Mexican national complain about it. Not one! The people that complained were Americans who were registering their cars out of the country to avoid the deal. And it was U.S. citizens that said, “Well, I'm a U.S. citizen. I have the right to do this.” And all of this, you know, when you do these things, the learning curve is so steep, you learn so much by just making the effort to move it forward. Savo: Hmm That’s very interesting. I didn't know that it was mainly U.S. nationals complaining about this bill. I assume that there would've been some repercussions from the Mexican end. But, I'm interested, how that was perceived after the bill was passed. Were there any political fallout from that? Bilbray: No, you would think that, you think that people, you know, everybody's got a hypersensitivity. Um, like I, I was told by Greenpeace one time that they don't wanna look punitive to a nation of color. So you can't apply the normal standards to certain areas because people then have a hypersensitivity of looking to be outraged about it. I didn't sense very much attack at all. I think that everybody's gotta remember the greatest victims of that problem. The only people that were impacted more than San Ysidro, was Tijuana. And, a lot of that border pollution issue is the fact that the most vulnerable and the poorest are the most impacted. And that isn't discussed about very much. And so, uh, no. I'm sure that there might have been a lot more people upset, but really, it was very focused on the fact that the problem was something that just common sense. That if you want to have the opportunity to go to school in San Diego County, if you want the opportunity to work in San Diego County, with those opportunities, go environmental responsibilities. And that nexus that connection is essential for not only our environmental policy, but for our whole quality of life. Bilbray: You can't maintain any standard if you're going to find excuses to not, maintain a minimum standard. Savo: You mentioned groups like Greenpeace. Um, how, how were you able to reach across to these groups? Or how were you able to be in connection with these groups if they were not so willing to back your bill or not so willing to help the crisis? It seems like they were more counterproductive. It seems like they were more-- Bilbray: Well, they can be on situations like that. But when I did the. I created the Otai Mountain Wilderness Area. And in Washington, because you have certain mindsets in Washington. But, in Washington, when I proposed that we were going to have a wilderness area that had roads in it, you would've think that I was committing the greatest sacrilege in the world because that they couldn't understand, “Well then why have wilderness [area], if you have wilderness [that] is all about roads?” And, actually, it was the local Sierra Club that helped me carry the message to Washington and to the National Sierra Club that without the roads, the wilderness area would be totally destroyed. And they said, “Why?” I said, because the border will be totally out of control. And you have people that had no life experience of the Frontera and what goes on in the frontier. Bilbray: I mean, you're looking at somebody that, when I was 10 years old, walked from Imperial Beach all the way down and, you know, crossed into Mexico and came back. My mother actually caught me as I was crossing. And before she passed away, I said, how did you know to come catch me down there? She goes, “Well, I went to the park and across the street they said, ‘Oh, Brian went with this 10-year-old and, this 12-year-old, and he's going to Mexico.’” And so, she drove down and caught me. But, that kind of, you know, growing up with that environment, you sort of go back and forth about how you approach this. When it comes to, there's just. It's just astonishing how with the entire Frontera area, people are intimidated by it. Bilbray: [They] are absolutely intimidated. And it's so alien to them. I mean, to this day, you have people come visit you at your house, and you can walk out of my front doorstep and see the bull ring at La Playa [in Tijuana]. And Tijuana looks down on Imperial Beach. We take that for granted, and people just don't comprehend that. And I think that a lot of this kind of stuff is, people are intimidated. Even environmentalist groups and NGOs are very intimidated by it. And I remember there was a lady who served with me on the County [of San Diego] Board of Supervisors, Susan Golding, who, was doing something about the border. And she got totally attacked because she said something that somebody was always sensitive about. And she walked in my office very upset and said, “What's going on?” Bilbray: And I said, it's a landmine. As soon as you get around that border region, people are looking at one side or the other, and it's totally different. And don't get upset about it. And they're very uncomfortable about the border. But see, when you grow up in Imperial Beach, when you grow up in San Ysidro, Chula Vista, you know, at least 20% of the kids that we went to school with lived in Tijuana. I mean, which came in handy when you were in high school because you go down there, and you knew somebody's uncle owned one of the bars. You know, it was just one of those things that we were culturally, crossing. But that is, we take it for granted. And that's a big mistake for us taking it for granted. The ability for people to comprehend the trans-frontera culture is so tough for 'em. I mean, that line gets in there. When you try to explain to 'em, and any of us that grew [up] on the South Bay know, you can know where Mexico starts and where the U.S. starts by the color of the lights. And we just sort of think about that. Well, it's something that just doesn't happen through osmosis. It just happens to be our neighborhood. Savo: You mentioned that's a lot to take in. You mentioned this transnational community, this area that IB [Imperial Beach]is located in. Would you say that this community that's being formed here, did it have any effect on the development in IB [Imperial Beach]? Because I know, there's a lot of different propositions that you wanted, recreational that you wanted to… Bilbray: You had, you had. Let me tell you the transformation and anybody that grew up in the South Bay understands it. Where else in America, when do you have to drive through two other cities to get to the other part of a city? Savo: That’s true. Bilbray: Physically cannot go on. A lot of people, we take it for granted, but the extraordinary situation that happened with the major wealth in the city of San Diego, using their political power and influence to annex a huge area in our neighborhoods, and it was for their land development schemes. You had major investors from San Diego City buy in an area called Otai Mesa along the border. And they bought all the land around a place called Brownfield, and they were going to make the international airport there, and they were gonna make a fortune. That major investment, they annexed, and cut a deal, so that they could annex down a waterway, 300 feet wide, down the middle of San Diego Bay, uh, negotiated with cities not to claim their old title. Bilbray: So, they could sneak down here and then annex an appendage down along the border so they could control the border crossing at San Ysidro, and they could take the airport and move the airport down there and make a fortune. They used that to stop any development in the estuary or in the valley because they wanted that all free and clear for landing jets over the top of it. ’Cause they didn't wanna see the problems we had at, at Lindbergh Field. All of that was part of something that those of us in the South Bay didn't even know what was going on. And the annexation of San Diego into the South Bay was a major intrusion. I mean, the south, the South Bay part of San Diego is nothing, less than a colony. And I watched that, I watched it in many little ways, but the manifestation that I try to explain to people so they can have a visual is that when you drive from Imperial Beach and leave Imperial Beach and go into San Diego, between the freeway and Imperial Beach. You'll notice that there's not one billboard in Imperial Beach. Bilbray: But as soon as you hit San Diego, it’s billboard after billboard after billboard. And I know because I was county supervisor for Point Loma and for Imperial Beach, a lot of, most of those billboards were shipped down from the wealthy areas of Point Loma because you had a local council member who want to get it off of Rosecrans [Street in Point Loma]. So, the deal was you take it off of Rosecrans and we'll let you put it down in Imperial Beach in the South San Diego area. And literally using this as a dumping ground. You see hotels being converted to halfway houses in the coastal zone. There's no place else in America where that allows. You've got nowhere else in America under the EIS, the Environmental Impact Statement, could you cite a Home Depot or a Walmart, legally, anywhere with only one access point. You always have to have at least two, if not three. Well, down in the south San Diego, you not only have a Walmart, you have a Walmart and a Home Depot with only one access point. And that intersection is what they call a Schedule E. It is dysfunctional most of the time because they've created that. Somebody made a lot of money on it, and the environmental standards were abandoned because these are just poor people of color. And so, yeah. Don't get me started on this, but the whole concept has been a real problem. Savo: You you're very passionate about the subject and I'm very curious to know how...were, as a congressman, how were you able to explain to your, or illustrate to your constituents that you were that passionate about this, about what was happening in an IB. Obviously today, in today's day and age, we live in an area of transparency, right? Were we're trying to voice our message and our concerns. What, what was your outreach to the community and to the district? Bilbray: I had an advantage that because I had served as mayor and county supervisor, I had shown my passion for it before I was ever a congressman. In fact, I got a reputation of being a little crazy. And that, uh, but the situation was crazy. It started very early in my first term as mayor, where the county health department, which let me just say on the side. The County of San Diego has probably the best health department in the entire country. The standard, of quality, the science is second to none and it really helped me when I went to Washington. One of my greatest, I had resources, I had people I could call, I had people who were so far ahead of the curve on air and in health issues that were great. Bilbray: I had actually started over the issue that the federal government came in and condemned half of our city for a habitat preservation. It had actually been a big section had been condemned by the United States Navy called it the Tijuana Sluice Preserve. And that was the preserve, the right of the Navy to fly their helicopters over our city. And the wind. When I was mayor, we had major vector problem, mosquitoes. And we had salt water, late every year about September, the high tides, big king tides, and we get into it will cause [a] major bloom of mosquito larva. And I actually had mothers bringing their children into a city council meeting and taking their kids' shirt off and saying, “150 mosquito bites! We need to do something about this.” And they were right. When I meet with Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, I literally was told straight to my face that “Mayor, that's a sign of a healthy environment.” Bilbray: And that's when you start saying the system is too insulated from reality. And when the county proposed to go down and spray, and they show that they were using environmentally responsible, they were distillates that were very light, [a] thing called Golden Bear. You had Fish and Wildlife talking about diesel. Diesel hadn't been used for 60 years. And the scientists at the county showed, here's the environmentally responsible way to do it. We can kill the larvae. The thing disperses within two hours doesn't impact the, the vertebrates and whatever. And you had somebody in the position of power at Fish and Wildlife said no. In fact, they said, "If the county goes down there, we'll arrest everybody who's spraying.” And when they said that, I announced an a press release and did a press conference and said, good, because the mayor of Imperial Beach is gonna be the one spraying, and you can arrest the mayor for doing this. Bilbray: And then we can, we can stand up in front of court and let the system go. And I think a lot of that is the street sense I learned in a working-class neighborhood that, just because somebody in authority says something, doesn't mean that it's right. And that, you basically know that, you don't argue it in the streets. You take it to the court where it's not their turf. So one thing you'll learn is never fight somebody on their turf. Find a neutral ground. And the neutral ground would've been the courts. And I was coached on how to operate the equipment. I let the media know I was gonna do it. And sure enough, within a few days, the Fish and Game, Fish and Wildlife reversed their position and allowed it to happen. That shouldn't have to happen! And I'd like to think that that would, that is just because it happens everywhere. But frankly, I think there's a big double standard and the mentality of how people approach that. So, I learned to push the system right from there. And that led to issues with sewage and everything else, is that the system needs to be pushed. That's how you keep it honest. Savo: You talk about how you have to sort of break rules to achieve the ends. And, um… Bilbray: Well, let me clarify. Not, well, not needing to break the rules, but when somebody is making up rules that are not the law, then you not only have a right, you have a responsibility to call it down. And I guess that's the big deal. I'll tell you something. The Simon and Garfunkel song, [The] Sound of Silence is about the sin of being quiet. And I think we always stick to the edict that it's better to remain silent and somebody think that you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's always safer in our society to remain quiet. Um, I think that is as Simon and Garfunkel will say is a cancer, and it doesn't do anybody a service, especially those that are overreaching or whatever that need to be called down. Bilbray: So no, I think the biggest issue that I've always said is that, like a lifeguard, you couldn't stop me from going in the water and rescuing, I call it the tennis ball and the Labrador syndrome. When somebody like a 9/11 [September 11th attack], somebody like myself, when you see somebody in trouble, there's some of us that just have to go. It's just instinctive. And I call it the Labrador and the tennis ball because when you throw a tennis ball off the end of a pier, that Labrador is over the water before he realizes what he's done. It's that instinctive. And, I think that there's just some of us that are hardwired that way. And this one definitely has gotten me in trouble in politics. But I think it's probably one of the biggest things that I would never change in the world. I'd rather get in trouble for speaking out than allow things to happen because I found it safer to remain silent. Savo: Well that's great perspective because I was actually about to ask you, you have a very unique political story in Congress. Were you reelected for a second term, a non-consecutive term. Was there an energy that reignited your motivation to run again? Was the stagnation of the environmental concerns in Imperial County or Imperial Beach the reason that you decided to run again? Bilbray: There was, across the board there were so many opportunities in the environmental, strategies that are abandoned and feel, so, see. I introduced a bill to eliminate the mandate on California to use ethanol. I had the Lung Association come in and literally challenged me that I didn't care about people dying of cancer. My father died of cancer. Lung cancer. But they were going on a certain agenda. And I knew from serving on the Air Resources board that we had found at the Air Resources Board that ethanol was not only not a good, environmental option, but it was a pollutant. And to this day, the federal government does not do total testing on auto emissions because they want to hide the evaporative emission problem with ethanol because there is a huge Archer, Daniels, Midland involvement and involvement in nonprofits that claim to care about it, that Archer, Daniels, Midland, it's good for their business. Bilbray: And I don't mind 'em doing that, but I mind them wrapping themselves in [an] environmental blanket and saying, “God wants you to give me your money.” I call them environmental Jimmy Swaggers. And that doesn't follow the science. And so many people that you'll hear, “Stick to the science, stick to the science,” will abandon the science, not address stationary sources like inappropriate traffic management if we want to reduce air pollution. But the ethanol issue was one that the Air Resources board came to me and asked me to carry. And I knew about it because I just finished serving with them. That kind of thing, I think is essential to do. And I think for the credibility of those of us working on environmental problems, we have to do that. You can't pick and choose, you know, well, I want this one because it's convenient to do and not go the other way. Bilbray: And, I mean, I drove a natural gas car back in the eighties, not many people were talking about that and the flex fuel that you get into it. But, the, the challenge is trying to keep the science up front. Environmental activism is not a theology, it's not a religion. You don't have dogma. It's the best science you have at the time. And when the science tells you that what you thought was factual is not you not only have a right to do that, you have a moral obligation. I mean, it's so hypocritical to claim you're out to save the world, but you kind of ignore the facts when they don't fit you right. And to this day, to this day, I'm looking at what's happening here in California. Traffic Management, a lot of this kind of stuff that we're working on, nobody wants to talk about because it just doesn't fit the doctrine right now because it's sort of what's fashionable. Tijuana sewage was not fashionable. I built a reputation on that because I had no other choice. And right now, we still have that problem. It's worse today than it's ever been. Savo: So--Bilbray: Don't let me get you off your line. Savo: No, no, no. I just wanna make sure that I Bilbray: follow it up. Savo: I love, I love everything that you're-- Bilbray: Double back on it and get anything I passed that if I didn't hit it. What was your real question? Let me try to get right onto it. Savo: No, I was actually gonna ask if you could elaborate on some of the bills that you had authored, co-sponsored to address the sewage crisis. 'Cause you had two propositions to address the crisis. One, which was the expansion of the South Bay the wastewater treatment plant. And the other was a, uh, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it here, Bagua project. Bilbray: Bagua. Well, first of all, one of the things is make sure that the laws follow the science. And one of the things I got involved with that I got attacked for being anti-environment is [to] eliminate the secondary mandate [Secondary treatment of water through the quality control process] at Point Loma. And this is where people, you know, just get so frustrated that they care so much that they turn their brain off. They're leading with their heart and obviously, secondary is better than primary. So why wouldn't we go to secondary? And the fact is, is that it was lucky that there was a physician, I mean a lawyer who, named Bob Simmons. And he actually was just absolutely sharp on the line. And a lot of us, the line was always said that he could see it clearly, even though he was blind, that the law was hurting the environment. Bilbray: And what happened was he had run into the environmental impact report for going to secondary at Point Loma, they went through all the assessments from the environmental point of view, and they said that, “Because we're in this…” the outfall had been taken so far out to sea, was under three [thermoclines], the current of the Japanese current was dissipating. And, and the ocean was assimilating, that there was no net degradation of the sewer outfall at what they call advanced primary, about 89% of all solids taken out to about 94%. And then they looked at, okay, we're going to build, do this, do this, do this. And when they looked to go to secondary, the environmental impact report and the EIS, the environmental impact statement said, the building, the plants and doing all of that, will cause more environmental damage than anything that advanced primary was doing. Bilbray: So the answer to a problem was worse than the problem. And you had people that say, “We don't care. Secondary is the standard, is the law.” And Mr. Simmons talked to me about it, and he was right. And I took it to Congress and said, when an environmental law hurts the environment, it's being implemented wrong. No one passes an environmental law with the intention to hurt the environment. And, so here you had the scientists gave us a report and everybody wanted to ignore it because it meant that we had to go back and rethink an agenda. And what happened was, is that the Activated Sludge Mandate was meant for in-water, freshwater inland rivers and lakes where dissolved oxygen is a big deal. But in the open ocean, dissolved oxygen is plentiful because with so much action in the ocean, that they were taking something that was meant for ponds, rivers, and, small estuaries, freshwater estuaries and trying to apply it to the open ocean. Bilbray: And it hurt the environment. So, [I] actually had Donna Fry attack me for, well, that was because she meant well, but she was, she was ignorant about the situation. In fact, I think the history shows eventually she ended up changing her position too. That along with the, you know, we were talking about some of the other issues on the Tijuana situation. The Bagua [project] was recognizing that the problem was that Mexico did not have the problem. And I'll just tell you this, I have the pleasure of meeting every year with members of the Congress in Mexico and astonishing with all the talk about how people, we are neighbors of Mexico, how few members of Congress actually would go to these meetings. And once a year we meet in the U.S. or meet in Mexico and we talk. There was a gentleman who represented Tijuana in the Congress. Bilbray: And after the meetings, whatever, over a couple beers, he made a comment to me and he says, “Brian, your problem is that it's not our problem.” [He] says, “Your problem is to figure out how to make it our problem.” I said, what do you mean? He says, “You realize that when we dump the sewage, we don't have to pay for the chemicals, we don't have to pay for the pumping, we don't have to pay for the maintenance. You know, it just goes away. And what you gotta do is figure out how to make it our problem.” Well, one way we make it their problem, and the only way that problem is ever gonna be addressed, is when Mexico and Tijuana needs that gallon of sewage to turn into their next gallon of drinking water. And Bagua was a way of being able to do that in a third world country. Bilbray: And that was to get Tijuana on a total recycling program. Where they absolutely had to depend on recycling to be able to provide the water they needed for their country. I mean, for their city. And the concept was that we weren't going to send money into a third world country like we're doing, and we are gonna do again, because what happens is the money gets diverted to other places. A good example is when we first built the Banderas treatment plant in Mexico. I knew the engineering on that, I was in the negotiations in 1985 in Mexico City. Mexico wanted to get a grant to bring a million and a half acre feet of Colorado water to Tijuana through Otay Mesa, Mesa de Otay. Bilbray: And so we were looking at that plan. What we recognized is that, we were gonna send water down there, and the source of the pollution that pollutes our estuaries and our beaches actually comes from the United States. Because without that water, there would not be sewage flowing into the United States. So then their line was, we can't support this unless you can guarantee that this water's not gonna come back polluted, in 1985. And, the entire concept was we tried that, we were looking at that. And when they built the Banderas plant, it just shows you the little corruption that gets involved in these things. And it's not, and you know, if you, if you see the details, you kind of start understanding better why you have these in third world countries. They were open ponds and they had a thing called an aqua lift. Bilbray: And the aqua lift was a tube that air would be pumped in. And it, the aqua lift pumps the water by the bubbles coming up, draws it in. And the Jetco program with the aqua lifts that were engineered for these ponds had converging turbines. So, one turbine would turn one way, the other one would turn the other way, and as the bubble went up, it had all these turbines going there and dissolved the oxygen into the water so much better. And that raised it really up [oxygen levels]. So that was, and when we did the plan, that was all in the engineering. When they went to purchase it, somebody went over to Mexico and said, “Look, we've got the aqua lift and it's only 20% of the costs of these Jetcos. These Jetcos get patents. We've figured out how to do it without it being so expensive.” Bilbray: What they had was a tube with baffles. Now, what happened was it only had 20% of the dissolved oxygens that the other one had. So, the entire plant’s were only a quarter, you know, of what they planned on. Because they had changed this one component. And some people say, “Well, you can't expect them to do that.” Getting back the recycling is where we've got to get it done. And by Agua you have a private company bonded in the United States in Mexico, and they do not get paid for building anything, for digging anything. They only got paid for per gallon they treated, they would then be paid for that. So, outcome-based environmental strategy, and that's one of the things that I'm absolutely an advocate for is we've gotta get back to the concept that the outcome is what matters. Bilbray: You can build all these plants, you can do all these regulations, you can do all these things in environmental strategies, but if the outcome doesn't reflect your goals, then you not only have a right but a responsibility to change this. The regulations are useless And if, it doesn't work out. One of my biggest frustrations working with the Republicans in Congress was they could not see, and John Boehner, I tried to tell 'em and trying to get people to understand there are environmental regulations and you guys only see it as being bad for business. I can show you where it's bad for the environment. It's some of the worst stuff is done in the name of the environment. And so many of my Republican colleagues couldn't just get around, you know, just didn't see that as being important. I thought it's essential! Bilbray: It's the one place you could get the left and the right working together if they're willing to, you know, turn their brains on and open their eyes. And the Bagua was, the whole strategy was get there. Bagua was attacked because somebody was gonna make money off of cleaning up the sewage. And what's sad, you have nonprofits, you have corporations making money off the problem, but not solving the problem. And I actually watched them dismember a package that was put together with a Democrat and myself, [Congressman and former San Diego Mayor] Bob Filner and myself. And believe me, Bob Filner was no joy to work with. In fact, even the Democrats were shocked that I could work with him. But it was because, you know, you play the hand that the voters deal you and Bob was the the congressman from the area. And we worked out this way that says, these guys don’t get one cent unless they treat it, and they only get what they treat. Bilbray: And that was attacked because it was private operation. And people said, “That's immoral to have private companies doing these kinds of works.” Well, ladies and gentlemen, every project in Mexico is done by private contractors. And that's the naivete of people in the United States. Not taking the time to culturally understand that the Frontera is a different world. And that's where we get back to this issue of, we take things for granted here and other people just cannot comprehend it. It’s a quite unique experience we have by growing up on the Frontera. So, it paid off on that. Bagua was killed, and by people that now are crying, “Why has the problem gone from 45 to 55 million gallons of raw sewage pouring in every day?” Savo: Wow. You mentioned working with Bob Filner and the absolute, I don't want paraphrase here, but the absolute nightmare must have been to work and to kind of piece together this bill. How, how, [I’m] trying to phrase the right question here. Bilbray: Oh, lemme say Bob, Bob wasn't bad for me because I was on my home turf. Bob Filner was a carpetbagger. Okay. He, and I don't mind people come in and go back and forth, but, he ran in the South Bay because the South Bay was vulnerable. You realize that Juan Vargas is the only other congressman that ever represented the South Bay that was from the South Bay? Except for myself. That's an indictment to the process. But Bob came in, I had worked with Bob when he was a council member, worked with him before I went to Congress and before he went to Congress. And so there was relationships there that, again, that local government gave me a big advantage. I mean, his wife actually worked for me when I was chairman of LAFCO [San Diego County Local Agency Formation Commission], when I was at the county. And she was the director. And so, you know, relationships do matter, you know, human to human. And Bob knew that I knew his district better than he did. And I think he gave me more respect than I've seen him give anybody else. Not that he couldn't go unglued sometimes. Savo: I mean, you talk about these networking skills that you've developed in the county and then you obviously exercised it in the Congress. Could you speak a little to how you reach across the aisle when it came to these issues? You mentioned that you always have to look not only to the right, but you also have to look to the left. How did you find that goldilocks zone? How did you…? Bilbray: You pick up the tool that you need to get the job done. I actually had people attack me. [Congressman] Randy Cunningham hated Filner, hated that I was working with him. I actually had, you know, Republicans say, and I had reporters say, “You got Bob Filner on 80% of your legislation, why'd you do that?” And I said, because if I've got Bob Filler on my legislation, I got every left-wing crazy voting for me except Maxine Waters, you know? And so, I understood it, but growing up in my family I'm always used to that. My cousin was the congressman from Las Vegas, Democrat, Harry Reid's best friend. Harry Reid carried my bills. And they, you know, the concept that party line should be a barrier is absolutely absurd. And for those of us that are willing to cross the aisle, it's a real advantage. Bilbray: I mean, I prided myself on a lot of issues. In fact, the day I was sworn back into Congress, I made a gesture for a big reason. I was one of twenty-seven people in the history of the country that had come back from a different district. I purposely, when I gave my acceptance, at being sworn in. I did not stay on the Republican side of the aisle. There's two podiums, Democrat and Republican. I crossed over onto the Democrat side and I did my acceptance from the Democrat side. And there's an issue that you call in theater, they call violating your aesthetic distance. You're violating the presidium. You are-- like theater in the round, you're going into the audience. And they don't have the security of being away and sort of safe. And I did, I violated that aesthetic distance by moving into the Democrat side Bilbray: so I could talk to them personally one-on-one, in their face. Not from over here in the Republican corner. And that is a technique, but I think that it should, you know, people should use it more often. If people are safe hiding in their corners, you got an obligation to go pry 'em out. And, you know, Bob was obviously a real challenge. And he had a lot of his, you know, I worked with people in Congress and there's a lot of demons in Congress. But you know, who was it? You know, Plato said that, “Those who should rule won’t.” And I'm saying, look, normal people don't get involved with politics. So you get stuck with those of us that will. I actually had a gentleman named Allen UK, [the] man who gave me the idea of carrying the bill to bring the, the Midway into the county. Bilbray: And he wanted to get involved with politics. And what happened was so interesting is he ended up running against me. We ran against each other to replace Cunningham in the 50th. But he came to me and asked me, and gave me a compliment. And he says, “You are somebody that'll tell me what, what is the secret of being successful in politics? You've done it since you were a kid, Brian.” And, he says, “What do I need to do to be successful?” And I said, “Well, Allen, are you into pain?” And he says,” Oh, I don't mind it.” I said, “No, no, Allen, are you into it? That this is like surfing a big wave in cold water. This is like playing football, you know, you've got to be into it. You've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta love hitting people and getting hit. Bilbray: Normal people don't do this kind of thing.” And you've gotta, I picture it as this must be how women approach childbirth. This must be important. Nobody would do anything that hurts this much if it wasn't important. And that, you know, that's why normal people usually don't get into politics cuz it's counterintuitive of everything. We're not, but we should be reflecting. But I think that there's a whole lot of good people in the game. There's a whole lot of people that are in the game for the wrong reason. And the trouble is the people that are affected by people in Washington and local government. Don't, man, people grossly underestimate the influence of local government. Most important stuff is the council mayor. And, when bad people get in there, it's the weak and the vulnerable to get hurt the most. And they get it from places that you wouldn't even think about it. Savo: Going back to about the local government and, you know, we're talking about that the federal government's kind of the problem to the solution. It's very counterintuitive. It's not, it's not the actual problem solver, it's the problem itself. What would you, what would you like to see change in Imperial Beach in terms of the structure or in terms of the environmental concerns? What do you think would probably be the most, beneficial, not outcome, but the most beneficial factor to help? Bilbray: We look, I had the privilege of serving in many different levels of environmental administration. Air Resources Board is the most aggressive, most successful environmental agency in the history of the world. They are equated to being Nazis because of a lot of stuff. And you get involved with stuff that you never would dream. I mean, I spent, I knew I'd reached the epitome of my political career when we spent three days on underarm deodorants. Okay. But I also watched Air Resources Board do the political moonwalk and backpedal so fast when they were talking about outlawing two-cycle chainsaws and then all the lumberjacks showed up at a meeting. But that application of people from different backgrounds, but the biggest key there is so essential. But having a scientific group to advise them and having that kind of interplay between people that are experienced in the field and those who are making the policy decisions and the flexibility, [it] really works into a large degree. Bilbray: But that can become out of control too. That can become tyrannical. I think the, the biggest one is looking at the difference between the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. The Clean Water Act is process based. You will treat this to this level, you will do this, this, this, and this. And then if you do this, it's okay If you pollute, you just do this. And we get into it. The Clean Air Act said if you've got dirty air, you figure out, you put together a plan to address this and bring it forward to us and show that you're gonna do it, and then we'll monitor you. But you'll do it, and we'll give you the flexibility to solve it and to solve, to take care of it. But, there's no limit of what you have to do. Bilbray: And if you don't do it, you lose all your interstate transportation funds, you have a hammer. That outcome-based environmental strategy is so much more advanced, and it's astonishing in so many places that we're still locked into process base. And the process base, I think a lot of it is, you can pick winners and losers there. You go to electric cars and you know who's gonna win in electric cars. And you had, you had Boone Pickens trying to get, um, you know, trucks lined up on natural gas and nobody gave a damn when Mr. Pickens was saying it. And, that you've, you've gotta say where are you gonna go with your reductions and where you're gonna go with your strategies. And that's where I just really think we fall down. Bilbray: It's so much easier for a regulator just to say, you treat to this, and then I can walk away with it. Tijuana sewage, the Clean Water Act, was an advantage. But people who claim to be environmentalists blew it up because they thought they were gonna go clean it up by getting the secondary. By not being a secondary, you then had this situation like we have with Point Loma, where you have a consent decree where they have to do this, this, this, this, this. Not in the law. Okay. If you're not going to go to secondary, you have to do all kinds of other things like recycling water up at La Jolla. All the recycling program was all part of this deal that the lawyer from the Sierra Club worked with me on. But if we went to secondary, like we did at um, in Mexico, the Mexican plant at the international treatment plant, then once you go to secondary, you're free and clear. Bilbray: You don't have no obligations. Okay. Now, now the pollution can flow. And that's what we've got right now, that we actually reduce the capability of treating the volume because instead of removing 89% to 92%, 94% solids at advanced primary, we now go up to 98%, 95%, we got this number, but it's only like 8%, you know, of solids more. So, if you could treat, a gallon here and you get 80% removal, but here you get 95% removal. But if you go to 95% removal, you can only treat a quarter of the water to do that. Well, this had the illusion in environmental groups, so this is better. No, it’s not. You are actually gonna have more pollution going into the ocean because you went to secondary because you’re not treating. [They say]” Well. What we don't collect, we're not liable for.” And say that's how the IBWC was able, their capacity dropped dramatically. And, it's just frustrating to see people that mean well, but don't look at the numbers and don't look at the total impact. And they don't. And really the problem is, so few of people that are involved in this stuff actually live down at the border. Bilbray: And that's, that's the frustration. People are insulated from the outcome. And today, we do not have a recycling program in Mexico today because people who claim they cared about the environment killed the Bagua project because they're worried about some capitalists make money on recycling water. Well, guess what, guys? You got Poseidon up in Carlsbad. You got people, private money all over this country right now doing it and you're gonna do it. That's part of, that's a tool in our toolbox to be able to clean up the environment, shouldn't, allow some kind of misguided theology to stand in the way of good science. Savo: As we're sort of wrapping up our interview here were there any bills that you wish would've passed? Not just related to the environment, but in general as your, as your, both your terms in Congress? Bilbray: Look, I got things done that… In many different ways. Bilbray: The, um, Bilbray: Dirty little secret is probably one of the most efficient things I got done was you open up, look at your driver's license. The real ID bill was my piece of legislation. I did it while I was in my forced sabbatical. And I did it because a group that had worked with me on border problems came to me and said, would you carry this? And I was allowed, because I was a former member, or I was a former voting member, that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, actually had to call me into a conference of his Republicans so I could chastise Republicans about the fact that it's not a right-wing conspiracy to have a minimum standard for the ID that you need to get on an airplane. And they say, “Yeah, but this is gonna be a national ID card.” And you had ultra-conservatives that were gonna kill it. And I went in and says, “No, this is the alternative to a national ID card.” You have state IDs, but they have federal standards. And those standards then eliminate the need to have a federal ID. You have. The states are presenting what is, which is enforceable as a federal ID. And getting that passed, is really a lesson for our everybody to look at. It is just now finally becoming mandated. How many years has it been since 9/11? Savo: About 22, 22. Bilbray: And they said, just let me back up and explain why 9/11 is mentioned. The terrorists on 9/11 did not have to show their Saudi passports because they went to Virginia and they got a Virginia license plate, even though, the license, even though they were illegally in the country, they got an ID that got them on that plane and killed over 2,000 people, Americans. And, then when Virginia stopped it after 9/11, they stopped giving it to anybody who [applied] and they required that you have to be legally here, you have to have the proper documentation, whatever, to get it. Maryland was giving it, given it to [people who] didn't do it. So that's when people start sitting around saying, this could happen again. And the people may think that, “Oh, well that's punitive not to give it to somebody who's undocumented.” Bilbray: Well, what, what do you use as a basis for your document if there's no documents, the person has any documents you’re wide open. So that one has been real easy. And it actually goes to something I learned my first year in politics, was 1976 and California implemented a digital code on our driver's licenses, and it was a barcode. And I remember going through hearings as a little 25-year-old city councilman about [how] with this barcode you can put it a put it in a reader and you could get all the information, you can get the picture. In fact, and to this day, I remember them selling that. That all we have to do is get these readers for every squad car, every cruiser. And a police officer doesn't have to sit down and do the paperwork. Bilbray: He can punch it in. The trouble is, uh, fifty years later, they still haven't put the readers in the squad cars. And one of the things was to say it was really important you pull somebody over that if they put this reader in and that the picture on their screen is not the picture on the card. You know, officers are now warned that there's a problem here. But a lot of that is, you know, just osmosis, you're around it enough, you pick it up. And I was able to pull out my California card to these right wingers who didn't want to do it and then pull out my credit card. And, I just said, um, guys, do you have a credit card? “Yeah, we had credit card.” Do you have a …, I said, the government already knows all about it. Bilbray: If you've got a cell phone, they know where you are because we required the, 911 code to be able to track it down because somebody crashed in Colorado, went into a snowplow, and the kids were calling for911 and they couldn't find them. And the story at the hearing was they, Colorado had every, all the state troopers run with sirens on. And then when the kids heard the siren, they said, okay, they stopped the cars and they turned off the sirens until the kids said, stop. And so they knew which cruiser was in the area where these kids were. And I tell the story because that led up to the fact that now every phone is tracked. And so, these conservative guys, I said, they already know where you are. They know what you're buying so to worry about Bilbray: This driver's license thing is absolutely absurd. So that's how we got that through. But there was, you know, look, there's things that you get to do that you don't even talk about. I mean, one of the best things I ever did never even was public. And that is we had a local business that offered to give their supercomputer to the federal government. They had worked with the UC [University of California] system and they offered to give it, as long as I kept it secret, as long as we didn't say who they were. And it was a local business here that gave their supercomputer, as a mainframe for the genome program. And that mainframe and that genome program, ten years later, when my daughter was fighting stage three C cancer at 20% chance of living with melanoma. A 20% chance of living two more years, that's all. Bilbray: And that mainframe and that system that was set up ten years before, found the b wrap mutation on my daughter's cancer. And that's what saved her life. And I have two grandchildren because these businessmen quietly contributed to this. And I just happened to be on the committee, the Health and Environment Committee of the Energy and Commerce Committee. I was on the committee that was working on the genome program. And that deal has not only saved my daughter's life and created the two grandchild children's lives, but have done a whole lot more. I mean, how many millions of people have been saved on that? And nobody even knows that we did that. And that's what's important to being at the right place where you can help, being the lifeguard, being able to run out and, you know, be part of that. And you, you can't, you couldn't give me a million dollars to change that. The little things you do in the back and aren't talked about is what really matters. Savo: Well, Mr. Bilbray, this was an excellent interview. I appreciate you for your time. It was a real pleasure. I thank you a lot. Bilbray: Well, thank you very much. And, if you have any other wines, let me know. I'm unemployed now, so, as long as I'm not sailing my boat to Mexico or riding my Harley over to meet my, see my cousins in Las Vegas, I'll be around. In fact, we are, [on] the 27th of this month. I'm gonna represent my cousin who just passed away this year. They have the 20th anniversary of his elementary school they named after him. See, they'll do that for Democrats, but Republican will never get it [laughs]. But that's okay. Well, my luck, they'll name a sewage plan after me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-056 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Mexican-American Border Region Imperial Beach (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexa Clausen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Flores Rios OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Rios, Dan. Interview, April 15, 2017. SC003-02 00:00:00 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Chicago Tribune (Firm) ; Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido (Calif.)) ; Photojournalists ; Escondido (Calif.) Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen 1.0:|11(18)|26(13)|48(5)|63(16)|82(2)|105(14)|120(13)|136(9)|153(11)|178(6)|192(14)|208(16)|222(12)|240(3)|264(6)|286(14)|304(5)|322(3)|335(19)|353(8)|372(11)|388(16)|414(8)|435(13)|457(5)|490(9)|509(16)|522(5)|537(13)|549(15)|565(12)|594(11)|609(18)|631(11)|644(14)|656(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/da6f191d23f549388e74dc4e65755822.wav Other audio Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. &#13 ; &#13 ; In this second interview conducted by Alexa Clausen, Dan Rios discusses starting work for the Escondido Times-Advocate and the beginning of his career at newspaper which was then owned by the Applebee and Carlton families. Rios discusses his work days, the paper's staffing, and his enjoyment in working for the Times-Advocate and in living in Escondido. Rios also discusses the selling of the newspaper to the Chicago Tribune Company and the changes that wrought with new editors, staff layoffs, and a much more difficult working environment. Alexa Clausen: This is April 15th, 2017. Session two with Dan Rios regarding his career as Chief Photographer with the (Escondido) Daily Times-Advocate. Now, Dan, we left off (last interview) having you hear about a job in Escondido, not really sure that you’d been to Escondido many times and going to a newsstand and literally picking up the paper. And then you were telling me how impressed you that the paper being so crisp and vivid. And that’s where we left you off. You literally went to a newspaper stand and grabbed a paper. So tell me your steps to getting hired. Dan Rios: Yeah. Well, I saw the paper and I was really amazed at how good it looked. So I was working for Mr. Boyd in Hillcrest, and on Monday I asked him if I could take the morning off to come and apply for the job. And I did. I drove down here. I met with Curt Babcock, who was the City Editor. He introduced me to George Cordry, assistant City Editor, and Ron Kenny, the Managing Editor. They interviewed me, they saw my portfolio, they saw my brag book and one question they kept repeating was, Did I know how to do color? Since I specialized in color the last year at school (Mesa College), I showed them my color brochure, that I had processed all the film, I had processed all the pictures and they seemed to be pleased with that. That was the end of that interview. Later that day they called and said I was hired and for me to come in the following Monday. AC: Could you give me a date on that? DR: That was the week that—that was 1968. I believe it was May, when Robert Kennedy was killed. AC: Oh my gosh. DR: I started working the week Robert Kennedy died. AC: He was assassinated in Los Angeles. DR: Yes. Yes, by Sirhan Sirhan. They asked me if I can come in on Monday and my shift would be from 7:00 o'clock in the morning until whenever. (chuckles) Whenever I was done. The only problem is I had an appointment with the DMV because I had gotten so many driving tickets. I had an appointment with them on that Monday, so I had asked them if I can postpone it for one day. They agreed. I didn't tell them why. The deal he gave me a one-year probationary period. One more ticket and my license was suspended. So, on Tuesday, the following week, I started. AC: Now let me ask you, were you replacing someone who had retired, or this was a new position for them? DR: They had only hired a part-time photographer. AC: They had a part-time uh-huh. DR: And he had left three, four or five months before me coming here. They had a reporter by the name of Mary Jane Morgan who seemed to know the photography, seemed to know the processing, and she was doing some processing plus her reporting duties. She would process the film for the editorial staff. Because every reporter took their own pictures basically. There were pool cameras. And they went assignment, they took their own pictures, they brought the film in. Mary Jane would process it. In Advertising also they had a pool camera and they would do the same. So when I showed up on Tuesday, there was a stack of rolls of film for me to process. And get busy and organize the dark room and see what the supplies were—chemicals and paper and equipment. I got busy organizing it and started right in. I don't think I got my first assignment until about a week later. And I started--my first assignment--I remember my first assignment was at the Escondido Village Mall at the Walker Scot Pavilion there. Mrs. Purer, Edith Purer I think her name was. I think there’s a road by your-- AC: Yes. DR: (unintelligible) Purer Road. Named after her family. And it was an art exhibit, art contest. So that was my first photograph. Of that. Subsequently I started doing a lot of dark room work in the morning and then shooting the afternoon assignments in the afternoon. I would shoot anything from mug shots to sports events, to society, to accidents, to trials. Everything except professional sports. I was never really much interested in professional sports. AC: And you'd have to what? You’d have to cover the (San Diego) Chargers? DR: No. AC: Where would they send you fort professional—they didn’t do much of that? DR: No. No. They relied on AP and UPI photos. AC: They bought them. Yeah. DR: Yeah, subscribed to those services and-- AC: Had you moved to Escondido? Were you commuting? DR: No, I was commuting. I was getting up at five o' clock in the morning, had a little breakfast, get ready, get dressed. Get out at six and drive a two-lane road to Escondido. I would arrive at work, seven o'clock, work until I was done. Sometimes at work I would have a three, four hour lay-over because my shift would end, but a sporting event would come in. Or a society event would come in later in the day, in the evening. And I would have to stay for that. AC: Were you hourly or salary? DR: I was hourly. A very, very meager salary actually. Well that was one of the conditions that I accepted at work. I talked to my bosses and I said, “You know, you guys aren't paying me a lot of money, I need to earn more money. Am I going to be permitted to use the dark room for my own purposes, for moonlighting?” They said, Yes, no problem, whatever you want. The darkroom is yours after hours. AC: It's the plight of every artistic person. You know? The job and the labor of love. DR: I was fortunate. I got along with everybody, everybody was fantastic. It was just a great boss--Kirk Babcock, the city editor. He could understand my photography. He knew what I was going after and he would compliment me on that. So, it got to the point that it was all over town. And then one of my assignments, we had something called "The North County." (Times-Advocate North County magazine) Which was a Sunday supplement. A magazine type thing. Tabloid type thing. And I was in charge of providing the photography for the cover. Every week, besides my other assignments. There were days when I would scramble all over town trying to find something. It was mostly artsy-fartsy stuff on the cover. Whatever I wanted. They never censored me. They never told me what they wanted. AC: Wow! DR: But it got to a point where I got to know the town. And I would drive a thousand, fifteen-hundred miles a month all over town, and all over the North County, and some assignments in San Diego--not too many. And I would shoot what they called "grab art." Whenever I saw something interesting, I’d take a picture of it. And eventually we had so many of those we couldn't even run them in the paper. And I suggested once that we run a special photo page. No theme, nothing. Just to use the pictures, and on Sunday it was a whole picture. And I came up with the name of "focal reflections." And they were just people, places, events, scenery. Just artsy stuff that I shot that we couldn't use in the paper. And we got a lot, a lot of comments on that. AC: When they were sending you on assignment, were you filling in between what the reporters were doing, or they were there own stories? So were you backing up an assignment of a journalist? DR: Well, most of the time I would go out with a journalist. He would ask questions, I would take pictures. Or if he had gone out and did the story, then they would assign me to go ahead and cover the story (unintelligible). A perfect example of that is--did I ever tell you about Rancho Guajome? AC: No. DR: Eloise Perkins, a historical writer grabbed a hold of me with both fists around my neck (laughs). And she would send me on assignments that she had problems with. And one day I was sitting around--there was two events she sent me on. One, I was sitting around. She said, “What are you doing?” I said, “I’m waiting for an assignment later this afternoon.” (She) says there is this adobe, an abandoned adobe in Vista. Would you go take pictures of it? She gave me the address and I found it. I walked all over the place taking pictures of it. It was collapsing, the floors were rotted, the walls were crumbling. AC: This was before the County bought it and restored it. DR: Yeah. It was just abandoned, I thought. I walked around. I must have spent an hour, hour and half. I went around the back, on the north end of it, there was a trailer there. This man walks out with a shotgun and asked me what the hell was I doing there? I showed him my credentials. I told him what I was doing. He told me he didn't care. He said, If I didn't get my rear end out of there in a hurry that he would start shooting. AC: Oh my god. Thank you, Eloise. DR: So, I got back to Eloise and Eloise just cracked up laughing. She said, “Did that nut threaten you?” I said, “Yeah!” She says, “He chased me away so many times I can't get through the-- AC: So she sends you. DR: And those negatives are in the files. Two and a quarter-inch negatives of all that stuff. AC: You know, you did have—after we shut off the tape, a kind of a get to know Eloise, so I’ll type that up and we can add onto the-- DR: Yeah. She did another one, another Eloise trick she did on me, was at Carrillo Ranch before it became anything. The old lady, Delpy I think her name was, was there. At that point I had a little fame going there at the (newspaper). That I could get along with old ladies. Old ladies and I had a rapport. They would offer me coffee, they would offer me tea, drinks—sodas, whatever. So, Eloise again played a trick on me. She says, Go see Mrs. Delpy at Carrillo Ranch. Take some pictures. So I got there, knocked on the door. She ushered me in, sat me down, offered me coffee, cookies. Told her what I wanted, what I do. She opened up these (photo) albums. with her mother, her stepmother, her stepfather, her family, (Leo) Carrillo, the gatherings, the movie stars. And I started taking copy, photographs of it. And I was there maybe two--two and a half hours talking with her. And eventually I went outside. The stables still were—still had the tack from the early days just rotting away in the stables. So, I again I showed up with Eloise and she’s laughing, said “How did you do with the old lady.” I says, “Great. You know, coffee, tea, cookies, conversation, she was fantastic.” She says, “Oh my god I can't believe it.” So I got a little history there with old ladies. I can handle old ladies, and I got along with them. I got along with everyone. I loved Escondido. The people were just fantastic. I never saw any prejudice on my part. I never experienced it. We had two Hispanic employees in the editorial room. Me and Joe Heredia, who had been there before I was. He subsequently--he had a heart attack and died on the job. AC: Oh my. DR: But--never any problem. I was getting to know people and at that point I had a pretty good memory. I could recognize faces and names. I got to know the city councilmen, most of the Fire Department. And they would call me when things were happening. I got to know the councilmen personally, the mayors, the city attorneys, and had a really good rapport. I loved the city. I loved the population. I loved the society people. They were so gracious. I remember once, they showed me—there was a—can't think of the charity—was a meeting. It was I think in the Fall or toward the Winter. And I showed up. I would pick on one person in a group and semi, lightly make fun of them. To loosen up the room. I wasn't mean, I wasn't vicious. AC: Just teasing. DR: Yeah, just teasing a little bit. So I got to this meeting there early and they were about to have lunch, and they invited me to have lunch. And I said sure. So I had a few snacks here and there and a cup of juice and sat down in front. They got done. And they sat them down and I picked on this one woman. And she was laughing, everyone was laughing. Just to loosen the group up. Then I went to get my IDs, left to right, front to back. And I get back one, the middle one. And her name—by the way the name of the owners (of the Times-Advocate) were Carlton and Applebee. Mrs. Applebee. AC: Now, Lucy (Berk) said—not Applegate? DR: No. Applebee. AC: Like the restaurant. Oh. DR: Applebee. So I got to the middle of the row and this woman. I asked her about her name. To give me her name. Oh god, I can’t remember her first name. An Applebee. And I dropped my pen and my pad of paper and looked at her says, “(and) that’s Mrs. Carlton?” She says, “Mm-hmm.” (Rios and Clausen laugh) AC: Oh they were the owners' wives. DR: Yeah, and I'm jiving with her, I’m teasing her, and I said, Oh god, that's the end of my job. Never brought it up. We became fast friends after that. AC: And this sounds like a style that worked for you to have people relax so you don't have those (stiff) photos. DR: Oh no no, I wouldn’t permit that. Wouldn’t permit hands in front of their bodies either, hiding their crotch. They had to hug people, put their hands in their hands, put hands on their backs. Couldn’t stand these people, just their hands just hanging down. AC: Now you did kind of refer to someone--was it Mr. Babcock--someone said that they liked your style, they knew what you were doing. DR: Yeah, Curt AC: Would you just expand on that a little bit? I'm assuming it’s like a methodology or an artistic approach. DR: Yes. I try to present a viewpoint. Semi-hidden, maybe not so hidden, but I always tried to present a viewpoint. Either through the angle or the lighting. A lot of the time I would take my own lighting. In fact somebody commented--they wrote me a letter that they liked my photography. It reminded them of the earlier photographers in the Midwest. They use to do that. Take multiple lights and set up a little lighting (unintelligible) they were portable. And that was my own device that I thought about. And Curt came up—in fact I was there about six months, and he came up to me, and slapped my back, he says, “How is my serendipity photographer.” No, no, no. Not serendipity. It was “ubiquitous.” “How is my ubiquitous photographer.” I had no idea what that meant. AC: You ran to the dictionary? DR: (laughs) Oh yes. AC: What did he mean? DR: That I was all over town, like a plague. AC: Oh! But it was a compliment. DR: Oh yes. Yes. I was covering everything. My photographs, I had four, five, six photographs in the paper daily. I was doing all the sports, society, the mug shots, and the features, and the artistics, and the grab art. As I said, I would work in the darkroom until noon, and the afternoon it was mine to do what I wanted to. I would do the assignments, do my own, do whatever. The following morning, I would come in to process all the film, do all the proof sheets. Start printing pictures for the advertising, and the editorial, and my own stuff. AC: Had they thought of getting you extra help? DR: They did. About a year later. AC: So, about 1970? DR: Uh-huh, about the middle of 1970. Well people would constantly apply. They would send their resume in. They would send their portfolios, a portion of them. At that point the paper was too small--the salaries were cheap to put it mildly. But I loved the place, and after a year I was planning to go back to San Diego, but I said there was no way I’m going back to San Diego. AC: Oh, you wanted to stay here. DR: Yes, I wanted to stay here. I loved the place, I tolerated the heat. So when they were wanting to hire, I saw this portfolio. Since as a youth, I was never involved in sports, never played sports. Not in school, not extra(curricular), never played sports and I wasn’t that familiar with them. I played softball in grade school, but you know that’s nothing. And then I saw the portfolio of this photographer, Jim Baird and it blew me away. The man was just a phenomenal photographer. And I went to Ron Kenny, I says “I want to hire this guy.” Because he loved sports. Which is something I didn't do and I didn't like! I said he could take that weight off my shoulders. And he could do it with an artistic flair that I could never do. And about that point the Padres had started playing at Petco Park—was called Jack Murphy, or San Diego stadium. AC: Yeah, the old Qualcomm-- DR: Yes. And he would assign himself games because he loved it so much. And I was happier than he was for him to do it. And he did that. And eventually he wanted to do a lot of his own darkroom work and printings that was just fine. But it got to the point where I was doing too much darkroom, not enough photography. So, I went to Ron Kenny again, and I asked him if I can hire a lab tech. Then I could do all-day shooting. Between Baird and myself, we would do the assignments. Then the darkroom technician was Lowell Thorp. He was an older man. He was in his fifties I think at the time. So, he interviewed and he said he wanted no part of photography. He had done that at his previous job and he just wanted darkroom work. And the man was super meticulous. He would come in at five o'clock in the morning. And do all the film, all the proofs. People would hand in their proof sheets with their marked photographs and their crop, and he would supply them. He would hand them out, he would keep the inventory. AC: When do you think this was, what year? Because you said you-- (unintelligible) DR: Jim Baird. Yeah. Jim Baird. Maybe a year later. AC: So ‘71 maybe. DR: And he retired there (at the Times-Advocate), he worked I think fifteen years, retired there. At the end of the year he would produce the summary of all film, all the paper, all the chemicals, everything that was used in the darkroom. The guy was just meticulous, he just loved that place. AC: It was a little bit like his lab? Like his-- DR: Oh it was his domain. Oh my god. If you worked there, he allowed you to work there, but you had better have it clean when you left. I remember when one time there was a reporter, I don't want to name his name, he works for the San Diego Union now. He liked to take his own pictures, and he was on the City Beat. He would get off the City Council Beat at ten-eleven o'clock at night, come in and process the film, print it, go home. Probably one-two o'clock in the morning, go home, come back maybe ten o'clock the following day. Well Lowell got in one day when this reporter had made a mess. He called him at 5 o'clock in the morning to get his butt in there, clean the place up because nothing was going to be done that day until he got there and cleaned his mess up. And he just sat until this reporter showed up. And he did clean the mess up and Lowell started working again. AC: How funny. DR: But he was picky, he was meticulous. He didn't care who worked there. Just clean your mess up. AC: It sounds like in a matter of three years, they hired you and then three-four years made an entire grouping of an entire photographic system from nothing. From having part-time photographers. So North County (San Diego) started a little boom at about the same time. DR: Oh yeah. It was flourishing. It was flourishing. AC: So that reflected in their demand for the newspaper. DR: Yeah. I don’t remember what year it was, early in the in the 70's. We won an award for the best layout in a newspaper regardless of size. And we were winning awards left and right. Editorial awards. I was never very competitive. I was never much into (photography) contests, after school. Didn’t interest me. I don’t know if I mentioned Edith Purer and her--I did join those a couple years. Printed some 16 x 20 prints, won first place, second place, third place in those events. After a couple years I stopped participating in that. AC: So that was your own artistic photography? DR: Yes. AC: What was your specialty, what did you like in your own work? DR: Just sceneries, evening shots, sunsets. AC: Color? DR: Yes, yes. Well no, not all color, some black and white. Would you like some water, I’m sorry-- AC: No, thank you. DR: If I could take you to the computer, I’ve got a screen saver-- AC: Okay. DR: --with some of my pictures. Thank you, Terry (for water). Some of my pictures that I like, that are put on there. On the—but mostly travel. When I was in school, in fact when I was in school, Mr. Dendle, my teacher asked me if I wanted to work for a traveling company, shooting landscapes for post cards, for different cities. That's all I would do is travel across the country photographing cities. AC: I’ll be darned. That’s how they did those, yeah-- DR: Scenery, and cities and whatever-- AC: Landmarks, museums, yeah. DR: Yeah. Send it to the company and they would ship it out to the cities in those stands that they had, those rotating stands. I said, no I wasn't interested in that. AC: Yeah, I like postcards. I don’t have a huge amount but I love it. I love it. DR: And I said, no, I didn’t. But I like scenery, sunsets and that kind of stuff. Nature. AC: I think—maybe people know this if you’re artistic but you have a job, finding time to have a life and your art is difficult. You know, writers do this, and other artists. That balancing the job, the family, and all that. So, had you moved to Escondido yet? DR: No. Was it? Well, yes, by that point. Because I--In getting up at five o'clock in the morning and driving to Escondido to be here at seven o'clock, and then working all day and driving back home--I was living in Hillcrest, and I would start dozing off. Two or three times I dozed off and woke up, so, this was not good. Because I was putting in eight, nine, ten hours a day. I’d have a split shift and work late at night and-- AC: Did they start constructing I-15 yet? DR: No. I've got pictures of Rancho Bernardo with the cows in the pastures where West Bernardo is now. AC: Yeah. With cattle (unintelligible). DR: Yeah. Got pictures of those. AC: So, did they promote you, technically, were you-- DR: No (Rios laughs), I was always Chief Photographer. It was just assumed I was Chief Photographer. There was no ceremony, there was nothing. When my cards came by, it was “Chief Photographer Dan Rios.” AC: Right. So they were too busy publishing a paper to get all these formalities. (Rios laughs) DR: Yeah. Oh yeah. AC: So once it (the Times-Advocate) grew to have a full shop, meaning, you're on assignments, you’re out of the darkroom, you have a tech guy, you have an assistant doing sports. Was-- DR: No he was full time. AC: A full timer. DR: Full time, yeah. AC: So, was-- DR: But he loved sports, specialized in sports which was good for me. AC: Was that the largest the staff ever got? DR: No. AC: Okay, so you’re still growing. DR: It continued to grow. After that we had some stringers. There was a man by the name of Mike Franklin who worked in the production department, who decided he wanted to be a photographer and bought a whole lot of equipment. And came in here and just picked our brains. He wanted to know so much while he was working and then on his days off, we’re talking about he would come back in the dark room and he would chat with Jim and myself about photography, lenses, cameras, film, processing, all kinds of stuff. He never had formal training, but his enthusiasm was just so overwhelming. Eventually, he was hired part time and then full time. And he was a great compliment. He was very good, very artistic. Hard working. AC: What was his name? DR: Mike Franklin. Hispanic. He was a hard, hard, hard worker. AC: Is this still 1970's? DR: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. AC: Yeah, okay, so they—the paper’s expanding. DR: Right. Yeah. I will tell you how much it was expanding. Mr. Applebee had us all--everybody in the place--gather in the production department and he told us that he was going to give us a gift. He was starting a profit-sharing plan. Way back when. And he told us, early 70s? Maybe ‘72, ‘73? He told us then that by the time we all retired, if we stayed with the paper long enough, that we would have a lump sum of maybe $100,000 in our retirement fund. AC: And who knew the decline of the paper, huh? DR: Yeah. Soon after, because I think he sold the paper in ‘76, the profit sharing stopped. But those funds were kept up by the Chicago Tribune who bought the paper, and they invested in Chicago Union stock which did diddly forever. But even today I'm still receiving benefits from that retirement fund. A good portion of my retirement fund is Mr. Applebee. AC: Well good for him. It was the right thing to do. They couldn’t keep up a fancy salary, and you were working-- DR: It was never fancy. But I made enough money on moonlighting—you were saying about the spouses—I would work all day and then take assignments. One of the editors would find jobs for you. A lot of jobs. But I would get a lot of jobs, people calling, do you do this? Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I would be working until twelve, one o'clock at night. AC: So when Applebee sells in the 70's, and you are now working for Chicago Tribune, did you sense a difference? Was there any-- DR: Oh it was an earthquake of a change of a difference! They brought in a new publisher who brought in a new city managing editor, who got rid of 50% of the people in the place. At that point, ‘76 I think it was—myself, Jim, Mike, him, him, him—had six photographers on the staff when the paper sold. AC: And he let go half of them? DR: No. They started leaving by themselves. Jim Baird went to the Union, (San Diego Union Tribune), Mike Franklin went to the Union eventually, Sean Haffy later on who also went to the Union. Mike—not Mike Nelson, there was a Nelson character, also went to the Union. Some of them went to the L.A. Times after that. Another Hispanic, Manuel—Manuel something or other, forget his last name, was working there. AC: How did they backfill those jobs? Or was it back to you working crazy hours? DR: No, at that point the new regime that came in started laying off people left and right. And I was not--l had been a golden haired boy with Ron Kenney, and the old staff, and the Applebees. When the new staff came in, I was walking on quicksand because they were laying off so many people. I mean, they laid off half the staff for no reason! We had a city (editor) who was just an ass. Want me to name his name? AC: Sure. Well, its up to you. DR: Eh. A total ass. He would scream at people, verbally insulting people to their face because of their writing. He never did that to me. But I never trusted him, I never liked him. So about a year after the Chicago Tribune bought the paper, I was called up to the office to the publisher, John Armstrong. He told me I was no longer needed as the Chief Photographer. I could remain on the staff, same salary, same benefits, same hours. And no excuse. AC: So what was his point? DR: They would just fire people. Left and right. I think they wanted to get their own group. AC: Shake up everyone? DR: And before the city editor—oh, Tom Nolen, was the city editor’s name. He started the firing people after, I mean he was the one who would scream and yelling at people. And he would intimidate them, they would leave on their own. AC: Did these people come from another area? DR: All from the East Coast. AC: They were? DR: All from the East Coast. Chicago would just send them all down. In fact, all the comptrollers, all the business people. AC: So they wanted to move their own people here. DR: Oh yeah. They just moved their whole-- AC: And get everyone that wanted out of Chicago to come here and have a job. Oh my. DR: And about that time—because working for the Applebees was a dream, it was a (dream) job come true. When Curt Babcock left—he went to the Albuquerque paper, George Cordry took it (Babcock’s position). And I used to tell my wife, if I ever have a dream job and a dream boss, it would be George Cordry, would be my boss. And a year later, he became my boss. And he was just a fantastic boss. AC: So things settle down? DR: Well, yeah, Ron Kenny—George Cordry was let go. All the City Editors were let go, they put their own staff in. Ron Kenney who had been Managing Editor, became Assistant Publisher and they gave him an office next to John Armstrong. Second floor, with absolutely nothing to do. No assignments, no writing, nothing. The gave an office, a desk, a phone, a typewriter. He said he read the San Diego Union from page to everything, the LA Times every day. Then he would go to lunch. Come back and sit around with nothing to do. Eventually-- AC: So was that their way of letting go people without having benefits? I mean-- DR: Well, I don't know what their deal was. When Applebee-- AC: Not giving them unemployment? They didn’t want to give them unemployment? DR: I don’t know what the deal was. AC: Or the contract or something? The contract-- DR: Maybe it was in the contract with Applebee. But what Applebee did when he sold the paper, I believe he sold it for $15 million dollars. He gave all the managers something like $100,000 each. AC: Bonus? DR: Yeah. And every employee—paid them $100 for every year they worked for the paper. Handed everybody checks before he left. And I don't know whether Ron Kenney, who was Assistant Publisher, what kind of deal he had, but he had his money and eventually he quit and moved to Pennsylvania, bought a little store, and I think he started a little store, hotel or motel. Eventually he came back and went to work for the San Diego Union as editorial writer. A good writer. Ron Kenny’s a good writer. AC: You know, I’m thinking, and you tell me, if this is this a good place to stop, because you know the transcription on 35 minutes—you know I’m going to be doing (unintelligible). But do you—is a good stop the Chicago Tribune years? DR: Sure. They were not fun. Not fun. In fact let me tell you a little story. When they moved in, after a year or so, one of my favorite reporters, Bob MacDonald, a columnist had retired and we would get coffee almost every morning. And I told him about my problems with the Chicago Tribune and with John Armstrong. How I was walking on eggshells. I didn't want to lose my job, my security. I loved the town. I didn't want to move anywhere. At that point I had family here, I had roots here, I didn’t want to go anywhere. So I talked to MacDonald about my problems and he said, “Do you like the job, do you like your work?” “Yeah, but they’re not giving me a whole lot of assignments.” Maybe one or two a day, where I was taking five, six, seven assignments. I was busy—you know, “ubiquitous Rios.” He said, “Tell you what, take their check, cash it, spend it, live it up. Don't worry about that. If they want to fire you, eventually they will. If they don't, they too will get fired some day.” And they did. Tom Nolen got canned. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_access.xml RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview, April 15, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. In this second interview conducted by Alexa Clausen, Dan Rios discusses starting work for the Escondido Times-Advocate and the beginning of his career at newspaper which was then owned by the Applebee and Carlton families. Rios discusses his work days, the paper's staffing, and his enjoyment in working for the Times-Advocate and in living in Escondido. Rios also discusses the selling of the newspaper to the Chicago Tribune Company and the changes that wrought with new editors, staff layoffs, and a much more difficult working environment. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC003-02 Subject The topic of the resource Chicago Tribune (Firm) Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Photojournalists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Community history Latine experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jake Northington OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Northington, Jake. Interview April 6th, 2021 SC027-01 1:52:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm Artists, Black California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students East Saint Louis (Ill.) Portrait photography San Marcos (Calif.) Student success Jake Northington Ayana Ford moving image NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.mp4 2.0:|27(6)|51(13)|76(8)|102(13)|128(10)|156(9)|186(3)|216(4)|252(6)|282(14)|307(14)|335(10)|359(13)|385(12)|411(16)|436(4)|468(4)|492(8)|521(10)|547(15)|576(16)|602(4)|635(8)|662(7)|690(14)|716(9)|742(11)|766(13)|799(17)|828(4)|854(8)|882(8)|914(13)|942(10)|967(4)|1000(8)|1025(4)|1051(11)|1076(12)|1101(13)|1124(11)|1153(8)|1181(14)|1209(13)|1241(8)|1267(5)|1297(9)|1326(11)|1360(4)|1383(13)|1410(15)|1439(17)|1465(4)|1491(17)|1525(5)|1556(5) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/82266c0c7756087444ebd53d3f362a8c.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Interview with Jake Northington, April 6, 2021. Conducted by Ayana Ford over Zoom. Interview conducted as part of the Black Student Center Oral History Project. Interview contains some technical difficulties with disrupted internet connections and lagging. 0 29 Childhood and Northington's understanding of Blackness Northington discusses his childhood in East Saint Louis, Illinois, moving around a lot, and how his childhood in East Saint Louis informed his understanding of his Blackness. 0 276 Impact of Black activism Northington discusses how he has been impacted by Black social justice movements. Northington also reflects on how his community in East Saint Louis empowered him. 0 577 Moving to San Marcos, California Northington recalls how he ended up going to school at CSUSM, which he attended after a stint in the military as a Marine. Northington discusses how being in the Marine Corps prepared him for being in environments where Black people were not often represented. Northington also discusses his first impression of campus. 0 893 Involvement with creation of the Black Student Center Northington recalls how he became involved with the Black Student Center, and how he was familiarized with Black population on campus before he was a student. Northington discusses some of the advocacy that went into creating the BSC, and how he participated. 0 1023 Activities and connection to Black students on campus Northington discusses his membership with the BSU, and other projects and organizations that he and other students were involved with on campus. 0 1429 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in Black Student Center creation Northington discusses the needs of Black students on campus at the time that the Black Student Center's push for advocacy was happening. Northington discusses the police killings of Black Americans in the mid-2010s and the feelings of CSUSM's Black students at that time. 0 1585 Opposition to Black Student Center's creation Northington discusses the feelings of CSUSM students, staff, and faculty that were opposed to the Black Student Center's creation. Northington recalls micro and macroaggressions and racialized incidents, as well as the university's responses. 0 1919 Grand opening of the Black Student Center Northington recalls his participation in the creation of the physical space, and how the art and decor of the Black Student Center helps facilitate community and student success. 0 2293 Early focus of the Black Student Center Northington describes the early focuses of the Black Student Center, including the initiative to get Black students, staff, and faculty aware of and using the center ; recruitment of Black students to attend CSUSM ; and the center's participation in efforts to lead to student success. 0 2686 Impact of the Black Student Center Northington discusses the impact of the Black Student Center in building community and facilitating student success, both in terms of the larger campus community and in terms of his own success in academia. 0 3127 Future expectations for the Black Student Center Northington outlines his expectations for the Black Student Center, including programming, a larger footprint with San Diego County's Black Community, the creation of a robust Black alumni network, in the works at the time of Northington's interview, the expansion of the space, a graduate assistanceship, 0 3437 Leaders of the movement for the Black Student Center Northington recalls the impact of individuals involved with the effort to advocate for and implement the Black Student Center, including Tiffaney Boyd, Jamaéla Johnson, and Akilah Green, who worked in capacities in student government and the Black Student Union. 0 3568 Involvement in programming Northington discusses his involvement in the Black Student Center's events, as well as events and programs put on by or in collaboration with the Black Student Center. 0 3843 Mission(s) of the Black Student Center Northington ruminates on the mission of the Black Student Center and whether it has changed. Northington also discusses the need to have more Black staff and faculty hired on campus, and to retain Black CSUSM graduates as employees. 0 4042 Campus outreach to the Black community Northington discusses the importance of outreach by various campus departments to the Black community, especially by promotion of events. 0 4134 Perception of Black students on campus Northington discusses how Black students are perceived on campus and his view on the work that President Ellen Neufeldt has done to date. 0 4218 [technical difficulties] 0 4260 Photography of Black students on campus Northington discusses his photography and shows some of his work, as well as discusses the themes and thinking behind the portraits of Black students and staff that he took during his matriculation. 0 4922 Impact of archiving the Black Student Center's people and programs Northington expounds upon the importance of recording and preserving Black campus history, and how through the work of preserving and making accessible the past, student success in the future is enabled. 0 5184 Mentorship from Ariel Stevenson and Marilyn McWilliams Northington discusses the momentous impact of CSUSM employees Ariel Stevenson and Marilyn McWilliams, and how their support - especially but not limited to before the creation of the Black Student Center - has been so vital to Black students' success at CSUSM. 0 5301 CSU San Marcos educational experience Northington discusses his academic career at CSUSM, where he studied Visual and Performing Arts. Northington recalls how he discovered photography and learned the craft. 0 5595 Black Student Center's impact on campus employment Northington discusses the roadblocks that Black students can experience gaining employment on campus, and how the Black Student Center assists Black students in gaining employment and professional skillsets. 0 5867 Advocates for the creation of the Black Student Center Northington recalls more of the individuals that pushed for the creation of the Black Student Center, including students, staff, and administrators. 0 6009 Black Brotherhood, Black Sistahood, and support Northington recalls creating the Black Brotherhood student organization with Louis Adamsel, as well as the organization's purpose. Northington also discusses the creation of the Black Sistahood, a similar organization for Black women, and how the Black Student Center helped maintain these organizations once the students involved in their creation graduated. 0 6568 Role in the Black Student Center oral history project Northington discusses his direct role, including the genesis of the project, in the creation of the Black Student Center Oral History Project. Northington also discusses the involvement of John Rawlins III, former director of the Black Student Center, and Sean Visintainer, Head of University Library Special Collections. Northington outlines the process of the project and his pride in the project. 0 Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumni. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. Jake worked in the Black Student Center and created photography that hangs in the Center. In this interview, Jake discusses his childhood growing up in East St. Louis, Illinois, how and when he came to CSUSM in 2016, and his involvement with the creation of the Black Student Center. Ayana Ford: Today is April 6th, 2021, at one-o-eight PM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at Cal State San Marcos, and today I am interviewing Jake Northington for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Special Archives (Special Collections). Mr. Northington, thank you for being with me today. I’d like to start by talking about your childhood. When and where were you born? Jake Northington: Oh, I was born in Illinois. I'm from East St. Louis, Illinois. That's where I grew up. And I moved around a lot as a child. I was adopted quite a few times and that allowed me to stay in a lot of cities. A lot of States, I went to quite a few elementary, middle schools, high schools. I went to four or five different high schools and I kind of moved around a lot, so, and ended up here in California. Ayana Ford: Wow. So that actually brings us to, our next question. How did you come to understand Blackness? Because I know by moving around to different places that would change your understanding. Jake Northington: Well, the city I'm from is 97% Black, and it's been that way for hundreds of years. So East St. Louis is in Illinois. Most people have never been there. And then people have heard of St. Louis, Missouri. Well both sides of the city is divided by the Mississippi River. And East St. Louis was a town established by Black people and it's been Black forever. And one of the major things that happened in that city was during the industrial revolution, like you've got a big race riot that happened in about 1918 that decimated the city, the East side of the city. And it's been decimated like that since then. And many of those places and the industries that were burned down are still burned down today. So even when I grew up, a lot of those places was still burned down and dilapidated just, it stayed like that for so many years and it's been a place of poverty, but within that ninety-seven plus percent of the population is Black. So growing up, I got to see Black people drive cars, be the principals, be police officers, drive the city bus, you know, they're driving Greyhound buses. They were mayors, city council people and all of these things that even the person delivering the mail – the person delivering to the doors and all of the shops, it's just a big group of Blackness. And I got to see Blackness from all different levels of economics and education. So I'm in an area where I get to see Black people from economically the lowest level and economically a higher level. So being able to see Black people among those different class groups and those different educational groups, it allows you to see people for who they are. When you can only see another group of people living wealthy and rich, it could kind of skew your view of that entire group. So, because I grew up in an area like that, I didn't get a skewed view of my own people. Ayana Ford: So do you feel like that helped you become more comfortable with yourself as a whole? Jake Northington: I was never uncomfortable. I would answer it that way. So I never had to get to a point to become comfortable being Black. My teachers are Black. So when I grew up, there was no such thing as being the only Black kid in class that wasn't a part of my upbringing. Everybody in class was Black ; teachers, middle, the principal, everybody, the Superintendents. So that wasn't an issue growing up so that every Black person there is practicing Black culture. The food, the music, the art, the corporations, the festivals, everything that's happening in a park, every holiday that we celebrate, everything was full. And so these are not things I had to pick up later in life or learn later in life. Ayana Ford: So how has the Black social justice and activism such as a civil rights movement, feminism, the Natural Hair Movement and the Black Lives Matter protest affected you? Jake Northington: Oh, well, so the civil rights movement definitely affected us. But in a way that's a little different for me because I--you got a lot of integration. You got a lot of Black people in areas they weren't, they were not allowed to before. You started to see, maybe an area of homes where you'll now have a few more Black families that never existed before, or you'll start to see Black people being allowed in certain malls or restaurants. Those things start to become a lot more commonplace, but growing up in East St. Louis, that doesn't matter. That didn't change. So you could--the people there were concentrated. So we didn't get to see all these different races of people and other cultures. We got to sit together, build together, fail, and grow together and go through all of the tribulations of life together. And you could get your answers from your own group of people. You could get--you know, you may get chastised, you may get corrected, you may be taught to do this, taught to do that. And it gives you an influx of empowerment. Like if I reach out and I want to know like, Ooh, what happened with Black people 50 years ago? I don't have to go to the local library and read it. I could find someone 70 or 80 years old that I can just talk to or ask what did Black people go through during the civil rights? These people are right here in front of me every day, they went through the civil rights. I don't have to go to a library or a com(puter) or something like that. And I think that's what people who grew up outside of a Black city, they may have to do some of those things. Well, I did not. So the civil rights effect on me didn't come with a lot of integration. The civil rights effect on other people, they may have been forced those to go into a lot of integration. And with that integration, they could have lost some sense of culture or some of the things that I was afforded to have, growing up in a predominantly Black city, going to a Black middle school, elementary, high school and things like that. So, the civil rights movement, you know, it had an effect as far as activism. Being at a Black school, we always celebrated Black History Month. Like throughout the year, we did things such as we had to give book reports or oral reports on every single Black person in history. And most of the time, these were all the Black people during the civil rights movement. So all eighteen or twenty of us, in second grade class, we'd all have to give out oral report and dress up as that person. So--and this is something I brought later to San Marcos as a student--and that's why I got that from. Being able to do that connected us to it. And it allowed us to see what we had gone through as a people, where we're currently at in East St. Louis, and then to kind of (technical difficulties) cast. That's what it allowed for me, that particular social movement. But then you get the, uh, the Black Panther Party movement, things like that. We got to see a lot of these people actively in the streets protecting other Black people. And some of these things were available in East St. Louis as well. So a lot of chapters that have Black Panther Party, some of those people came from Chicago and they will come down and then they would help protect or teach people different protective measures or teach more about history. And, that those two movements within my whole community, as far as people wanting to know more about history, people wanting to know what can they do actively in their community to correct some of the things that are issues in their community. So those two things had a great effect on my life and my upbringing. Now, when you get to some of the other movements, not as much, because I'm not actively involved in newer movements, but when as a kid, these other movements really had an effect on my mindset and give me a reason to look at Black people as a whole group of people and not just the people here on my street, the people in my school, the people in my city, you know, it allowed me to open my mind up to Black people on the planet. And having Black teachers all of through school before leaving, East St. Louis, having those Black teachers in all of this, this Black community as my baseline, once I left and going to these other cities, I was already, you know, in a strong understanding of who I am and come from. Ayana Ford: So, I imagine that's a big shift for coming to San Marcos. Did you come directly from (East St. Louis to) San Marcos? So, did you go straight to San Marcos after that? Or no? Jake Northington: I came here for work, so I completed my job. I was in the military after I completed my time in the military . It's right here. And you know, it was right down the street. It's like ten miles down the street, the military base (Camp Pendelton). So in this case, I wasn’t trying to move again with so, so much moving going on early in my life. I wasn’t interested in continuing to move. So I just chose to apply to the school (Palomar College). It’s the only school I applied to. Ayana Ford: Really. So was it--so you said you came, so you came from the military, so it was, it wasn't a really big shift coming from the military to the San Marcos meaning, culturally, or was it an easy shift because you got to be around a bunch of different cultures? Jake Northington: Yeah. So, I would say, no, it wasn't a difficult shift because even in the military, you're around every state and multiple countries. A lot of people from other countries joined the military to get citizenship and stuff like that. Even within the military, you're getting half of the states. At one job, half of the states are covered with people from different states. And I was in the Marine Corps specifically. There's not a lot of Black people in the Marine Corps. Most of the Marine Corps is non-Black so we already around other people and dealing with other peoples’ culture and stuff like that. And then prior to joining the military, I had already lived in Dallas, Texas, and I lived in Chicago. I lived in a bunch of other cities. So I was engaged in (technical difficulties) privy to being in the first university I went to. I went to college right out of high school and didn't work out too well, so I wasn't prepared for college in a way that I needed to be. That's kind of how it happened from the city I come from. It really doesn't prepare you for college. A lot of the effects of the, what is that called? They put a thing out in the eighties that was no child left behind policy. So it kind of turned all of our testing into multiple choice. And that was no more fill in the blank (unclear) of measure. So it was just pass or fail and they were just trying to pass everybody. So a lot of people were not prepared mathematically, through English, or through science and reasoning to even walk into college. It did a lot of us that disservice. So I had to take a little bit of a U-turn in order to come into the university and be successful. And that U-turn was the military. And that's what brought me to California. And then after the military, this school's right here. So that's why I chose San Marcos. There's no special reason (otherwise). Ayana Ford: So this--you think this, this U-turn helped you prepare for your coming to San Marcos with everything going around with so many different cultures that are entering the military? Jake Northington: Well, I mean, again, I had already faced it before the military, ‘cause I'd already been in universities and I'd already live in other cities. So I was already prepared even before joining the military. That's why I had no issues. So it's just a repetitive understanding that all of this is not East St. Louis. And everything I learned in East St. Louis, it doesn't necessarily show up everywhere, you know, it became more disheartening. So it wasn't a shock. It was more disheartening that outside of East St. Louis, I didn't go to a lot of places where they had a large congregation of Black people living at home, going to work, having all of these big family events and things like this. So that was more disheartening. I wouldn't call it a culture shock because this is still America. So I know I still live in the United States. So (laughs). Ayana Ford: So what was your first impression of San Marcos as a Black student? What was your first impression? Jake Northington: (unclear) That I didn't see any other Black students. The first impression was where are all the Black students at? Like, where are my people at? And now you walk around on a regular basis, every day you may see eight Black people. If you're on campus for four or five hours, you might see eight black people. And half of those are faculty and staff. So almost never saw the Black students, especially in my, uh, my study. I was in Visual and Performing Arts. And I think the entire time I only saw one other Black student in my class. Ayana Ford: Oh my goodness. So, can you, what, where did the student--(technological difficulties)--Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. So you were, you were, were you at the (unclear), grand opening, Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: So you got to see it come to be. How do you think that it impacted your involvement on campus? Being able to see this come to be? Jake Northington: Well, I already knew it was happening because I was a part of the, some of the other students who were working to make it come about. So before I got to the school, I was already coming here and being active because the first school I went to here was Palomar. So I went to Palomar College, which is the junior college across the street from the school. So I was already going to Palomar College. And while at Palomar College, I would come to San Marcos or some of the events and, you know, they put out a lot of different events that they were doing, and I would come to some of them, during kind of the U-hour (University Hour, noon to 1 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays, a time devoted to student mingling and interaction) on campus. So I was able to witness some of these things, and then there were groups of students trying to start the process of getting a Black Student Center. So these people were already doing this. And I'm quite sure this has been tried before as well, but this time it became successful. So I'm sure that's not the only time the Black student body asks for a place like this, but it was just the right group of students this time. And that was the very excellent Black students. They pushed it and they put all the measures in place. And then I just got involved immediately because when I got to the campus and said where all the Black students, I got involved immediately, I saw a couple of Black students that were out here really active and trying to make things happen. And I'm a person like that. So I just attached myself to some of those people and did what I could with this entire project. So I was along the lines of the project and I kind of added here and there wherever I could. And that was, uh, that was just a good group of students that were pushing to get their center. And I just happened to be one of them. Ayana Ford: So to backtrack, were you in-- Jake Northington: So I know I, (technical difficulties). Say what? Ayana Ford: Oh, I'm sorry. You cut off. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Ayana Ford: To backtrack: so were you, were you in any activities or anything that got you to be able to connect with more Black students on campus? Jake Northington: Yes, because when I first got here and I said, where were all the Black students immediately, I would stop people and be like, Hey, where's the BSU (Black Student Union) meetings held at where's this where's that, you know, you have to have a BSU! I mean, you got more than 10 Black students. You got to have a BSU. I would think, you know, so I found the people going to the meetings. I became a member immediately, you know, I started paying my dues. I went to every meeting and then I just kept asking for more. So I don't like things the way they are just because, you know, I think we deserved more than what we were getting. And then a few students felt the same. And then we decided to keep pushing for more, you know, every one of us has a part to play. So while some people wanted to operate, you know, the BSU, some people want to operate, like they had a Black Christian Ministries. Some people went other ways and then everybody has a part to play, to keep growing the Black community on campus. I wanted to find out things I could help do to grow the Black community on campus. And then this avenue of having a Black Student Center became one of them. So I just jumped in right into that and got involved. And that's what kind of segued me. So getting involved in the BSU segued to getting involved in this Black Student Center project. Ayana Ford: So, what do you think the role of the Black Student Center, Union was played with the Black Student Union (Center)? Like how did you, how did, what was your, did you have like a administrative role or were you just a student? Jake Northington: As far as the Black Student Center? Ayana Ford: Union. Jake Northington: Union? Oh, the Black Student Union, I was just a member. And then at one point I did run for one position. I didn't win it though. Somebody beat me out, but I did run for one position in one semester. But other than that, I was pretty active. I helped design some of the logos that they had for merchandise, I helped set up and break down events, things like that. So I was never an official officer, but I did the same thing many other students did, you know, so I didn't do anything special, but I just gave all the support I could. Showed up to every event I could and helped set up and helped put on some of the events, you know, just like everyone else. But then the activism within the Black Student Center project, this is when it started to kick up a little more, because I did other things on campus. I was a part of the College is 4 Me seminar at that time for the high school students trying to come to college. I was able to speak on some of those panels and then this led to other opportunities. So then I started to get selected to be involved in other occasions. So then I started to go to ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) meetings on the regular. Every week I would go to ASI meetings, take notes, say whatever I needed to say and try to transfer some of the things that the Black students were asking for in BSU meetings and try to bring some of those things and present them ASI meetings. If I could. And also sometimes those things happen and then them extended meetings. And just any meeting I saw happening on campus--they used to do a check-in with the vice president. They used to, they had all these open forums, I would go to everything. So that's the way I started and supplanted myself, as far as trying to help create some change and just attach myself with groups that were creating change, or sometimes create our own group to create some change. So then when, you know, as we got further and further along with Black Student Center, these other students were doing their part to start the resolution (for the creation of the BSC). And then I was just one of the students that came along to make sure we spoke up in support of it during some of those ASI meetings. And once it got voted on and it all got agreed to, then we had to have students to work there. And we also had to have people come interview for the position to be the director. So along those lines, I became even more involved. So I was selected to be one of the eight people to sit down and have luncheons with the candidates for the position. So I was able to do that. And we were, you know, in a conference room and we had to do some little, like just a little enclosed meeting and luncheon and kinda see what each person was standing and what they offered. And then I went to every one of the people's presentations to be the next candidate. And then I kept doing that with other positions as well that were around the campus. So that was another part I played. Also, we all sat down as a Black Student Center--as a Black Student Union, a lot of us sat down to come up with the name of the Black Student Center. So there's many names thrown out there. So in that it's called the Black Student Center, I helped vote for that too. You know, some students voted for that and I was just one of those, some students voted for different names, and this is a name that everybody kind of agreed to settle on. We also had to put in evaluation sheets for the presentations we liked the best from the different candidates. So I was able to do that as a student and able to do that as one of the eight people selected to be on the little small group panel. And I was the only student on that (panel). Everybody else was a staff member, but I was the only student. So then from that, I got hired. So I was one of the first people to get hired into the Black Student Center. And I was hired there. And then I actually designed the logo that they still use today. You know, I'm happy they still use it, but I'm like, it's been a couple of years. I was surprised they haven't gotten somebody to change it, but that's nice that every time I see it, I just remember. I did that and they--there's been like a lot of merchandise and just, you know, lapel pins, t-shirts and the space. All of the photos for the first two or three years, I took them all. So at that grand opening, all of the photos of the grand opening, a lot of those things you see as for a lot of the activities from the first couple of years, different video clips and stuff like that, you know, a larger majority of those things I did. There was a few other people that took pictures and videos, but the large majority of it, I did. That was one--that was my position when I worked in the Center, I did a lot of media and a lot of archiving. Ayana Ford: Wow. So what did you think that the student, staff and (faculty) involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed? While you were in the meetings? Jake Northington: Well, one is we needed a space that was our own. That's just number one. I would think all groups need a space that's their own when you're coming into a university system. Because we're going to be here for awhile. You're going to come to class, you're going to be here for six, eight hours a day. Some people are spending ten to twelve hours like me. I was one of those students that was on campus ten to twelve hours a day. You are a student who works on campus. So now you're taking your classes and your work here. You have to have some level of comfort and security. And then all of these things occurred during the height of a lot of shootings and murders of Black people that we all were able to witness over the course of these same years. So we're talking about the center opening in 2017, but this comes off the backs of the Sandra Bland murder, the Trayvon Martin murder that Tamir Rice murder, the Mike Brown murder all the way back to back to back, leading up to right before we got a space. So all the anxiety was constantly building amongst Black people, just in the country and you know around the planet. So with that high level of anxiety, a lot of Black students just felt a little more uncomfortable or insecure being on a college campus, that maybe they didn't feel as much support as they had once said they needed. So, having the space is something people asked for, because now we can have programs specifically for Black people that didn't exist prior, we could create support groups. We could have fellow mentoring from other Black students to Black students or Black faculty to Black students. We could have a hub or a home on campus where we could just relax and take all the stresses of being a Black college student or just a Black citizen in the country. So it becomes a place of that. So you get a little, a piece, a little home feeling, and a reinvigoration of why you're here. (technical difficulties) Ayana Ford: Can you hear me? Jake Northington: Yeah. Yeah. Ayana Ford: I'm sorry. You cut off again. I'm so sorry. So did you feel in the beginning, did you feel any pushback for the creation of Black Student Center in the upper--from people above? Jake Northington: Oh yeah. There's tons of it. I got it all printed out. People physically looked at us and gave us nasty looks walking around. This is faculty, staff, and students. Would physically look at us in a way of like, You don't belong here. So, before the center open Black people will be walking around sporadically, going to classes or something like that. And we were not grouped up as much. The only time you would maybe see a group of Black students is on the way to the BSU meeting on the, on the way back from the BSU meeting. And that may be the only times you can see groups. Once we get a Black Student Center, it's now a constant that everybody on campus is now constantly able to view, look at these groups of Black students right here around the center of campus at the USU (University Student Union). So this was a new thing for the campus. So we started to get nasty looks. We got a lot of students disagreeing with us having a space. We got people saying that, Where's the white student center? We had a few people even saying, I want my student fees back from you, (technical difficulties) my student fees going to the Black Student Center. Some people said that the Black Student Center is separation and segregation. All of these things were placed on the school's website, the school's Facebook page, the school's Instagram page. And, you know, the school had to do their job of correcting some of these things. But this was the feel of a lot of students, faculty, and staff, and some of them voiced these things. So we did get a lot of backlash. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like the school did a good job on responding to that, to the backlash that you guys received? Jake Northington: Ah, I mean, I would say the school did what they could because, I mean, if somebody states in opinion like that, that they don't want their money going to this, that's not an offense. You didn't break the law. You didn't. I mean, so what could the school do besides, Okay, we don't enforce, or we don't support that type of rhetoric so we'll take it down. I mean, I would say the school did that much. That’s tough to take in that manner. People get to feel how they feel and state the things they state, as long as they don't go over a particular line of, of racializing things or something like that. I don't think there was much else the school could do as far as what people would write in posts. Now treatment received to students or any physical threats or something like that, now I would expect the campus to do a little bit more. But just people giving nasty looks, I mean, we had students in the front and taking pictures, going, Look, it's a Black Student Center, wow, what is this? And they come make jokes. We had groups of students that would dare each other--groups of students who were not Black--they would dare each other to run in the Black Student Center and say something and run out. So that happened every week for probably the first semester, that entire first semester, second semester we were open. So it was a lot, it was a lot of little things like that. And people would come in and just try to crack a joke and, “I'm not Black, can I even stand in here” and then laugh and run out. Yeah. And that's again, disheartening, but that's not an actual rule that you broke. I mean, so what could we expect to happen? But it did expose the unaccepting behavior that a lot of people on campus had when it came towards Black people and Black students. So that behavior got exposed. So I would say that's a good thing. Even though it's a little bit of a struggle to go through it, but I would rather the truth come out. So, you know, people kind of get this from campus climate surveys, but we get to see it happen in real time. We get to see the actual discomfort or people saying, “No, I can't go in there.” But we didn't really see all of these things happening in the same manner with the other spaces! You know, you don't hear people saying, “Well, I don't belong to that racial group so I'm not going to walk in that space. I don't belong to this group. I'm not going to walk in that space. There’s a line I can't cross.” I didn't see these things. So if it happened, I don't know about it, but I didn't see these things. Well, we constantly got that. We had people that would walk up with their group of friends, one Black student, and then four or five other students. And they would walk up to the center and then everybody would stop right at the door and a Black student would keep walking in and turn around and go, “Hey, what are y'all doing? Y'all can come in here.” “Are you sure? Are we allowed in here?” And we had so much of that and it still happens now, but it happens rarely now. It was a common occurrence every day. So it took a while for accepting of having a Black Student Center. And that was from top to bottom. Ayana Ford: So on a more positive note. So you said you attended the Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: How did it feel to actually go into the center for the first time? Jake Northington: (laughter) I had already been in the center for the first time months earlier. Remember, so I helped pick out some of the items that we put in there. I helped, you know, I selected all of the books that we chose. I actually went down to do the purchase of the bookshelf. Went out and picked the items that went on the wall with some of the art pieces. So I had already been in the center, months and months and months, many times before it opened. And then we had to do planning to actually have the grand opening. So of course I worked there, so I was a part of the planning process. So it wasn't like a shock and awe to me because I was a part of the planning process. But I do understand how much that meant to the whole campus. But again, I'm coming from a different perspective. I'm coming from a city. That's nice. This doesn't give me an aha or shock. For me, it was more of a, Okay, good. This is the first steppingstone for us. We needed to have this. And this is now something that can become a foundation. Like this space is always going to be here. Now let's continue to build some programs now that are going to help Black students on throughout the future. So that was more where my mindset was. Ayana Ford: Okay. To backtrack, how did the planning go? How'd you make those decisions on what needs to be put up and presented in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Well, I was--I just knew it had to be positive promotion of Black people, because all that's ever talked about in many of our classes is if they bring up the Black community, they're talking about slavery, they're talking about riots, they're talking about social upheaval and, or they're talking about sports. So, culturally we're not seeing a promotion, or any type of surrounding positive discussions with Black people, staff and faculty, students, anything, because everything we were mentioning, it includes the faculty and staff too. You know, they've been here for years and years. Some of them had been here two decades. Everything our Black students are facing just for two to four or five years, the faculty and staff has faced the entire time of their employment. So this includes them as well. I knew that everything that went up in here had to support the Black culture (technical difficulties)-- pick out. Hey, let's get some nice photos of Blackness in its most positive light. Let's get some photos of Black men, Black women, Black families, Black children. And then the books I selected were particular books of some of the most famous Black writers and scholars that--these are books that need to be read. I created this whole list. I went and talked to other people ; other people added to the list. So it was a collaborative effort to make these things happen. And then we took a few people with us and we walked around and we just picked out items out of certain stores, you know, we looked online. And it was like, yes, these things are necessary. So you know, we have a big painting of Marcus Garvey. We have a--there's just so many different things that was just necessary. So that's kinda what we thought about. We thought about the past. We thought about the faculty and staff. And then we thought about the current students and the students to come, what would work to unify it all. And it's an uplifting thing to view and to see when you walk in here. And we also had a lot of students that are born in Africa, but they moved from Africa and they now live here in the San Diego area. Some of these students even brought things from home to help decorate the space. So, and that was, you know, they did that on their own. And they came and asked, they said, Hey, can we donate this? So we can put some of these African pieces in the space. So everybody added to it so that wasn't, you know--it was a part of my job, but everybody added to it. Ayana Ford: Hmm. So how do you feel like the art and the decor of the Black Student Center helped the center? Like how do you feel like it impacted the feeling of the Center? Jake Northington: Oh, a little more edifying. You tend to feel a little more at home. You tend to feel a little more comfortable. You walk in and you feel the culture and you just--now you like being on campus. Like you don't just run from class and leave campus and never come back until your next class at 8am. It allowed students to hang around a little bit more, which allows them to now talk a little bit more, which now allows them to build more relationships. So these things were not happening before the Center. And then we can't just have it empty too. So now when you kind of decorate the area in culture, it just helps with all of these things. And then now you constantly have positive images and then positive literature and all of these different things to connect a Black person to go, “Wait a minute! This has been done before.” Because we had this big picture of Tulsa in 1921, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it listed how many hospitals, how many banks, how many schools, how many restaurants, how many train and truck systems that existed through this picture of the people. And we had a picture like that of the Harlem Renaissance. And for Black students, faculty and staff, to walk in and see this, it reminds you again, Hey, look at what our people have done throughout the times. I'm here now in a university, it'll help you like motivate you a little bit more to push a little further, to do a little bit more. That's kind of how the artwork and the people kind of work together. And this is what makes it so much, so necessary to kind of culturally decorate the place. Ayana Ford: Hmm. Can you tell me a bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center? Like the initiatives, programs, events, and focuses? Jake Northington: Yeah. So one of the main early focuses was, again, where all the Black people? So our main focus was we have to get the Black people in the center. So it didn't happen fast. So, you know, if you go to the school right now, it's like a regular thing. But it wasn't. And half of them worked there. So we had to promote the space. As far as this place is here! It exists. Come stop by. Let's go. If you're walking into the USU and you go stop and get a bagel and some coffee, take two more steps. Here's the center, you know, so students would come through and keep passing it and keep passing it and not think because the space was already there. It was just, it was a different room. So the room got rearranged. And then once they put up the sign and everything, it's--all of the spaces have a sign. It doesn't stand out. It's silver and black. All of the spaces have a sign. That's not going to point it out so much. So you kind of have to stop. So what we would do is we would stand in front of the, in front of the center! And kind of stand outside. And two or three of us are standing out there, like during our work hours and stop students, “Hey, hey, have you seen the Black Student Center? We just opened.” You know, we're doing this, we're doing this, we've got this program, this event coming up. And then we would, during U-hour, we would be out there and have a table and we would stop students. And keep telling us in class, other students that work there, they would make announcements in class. A big part was to get the students in the center. So we all had to keep stopping students and keep telling them. That was a daily thing. Hey, you need to tell at least five or ten people today about the space and keep telling, keep telling. So we kept going, kept going, kept going, kept going, and kept going. And then, the Black faculty and staff had a lot of help in that because they used to do like Black student welcomes. And it was a little smaller than it is now. Because now all of these entities get to (technical difficulties) and the Black faculty and staff would do like a Black student welcome. And then now you're able to put all these things together and now it made the welcome a little bigger. And now you have a place to bring the Black students to, and you're not just talking to them outside the building. So this all now started to bring more students in. And then during the orientations, we're now allowed to have a table at the orientations all during the summer. So now this helped with recruiting. So recruiting people to the space was number one. Number two we're trying to get in the school like as a student in the school, when now we got the students here, we need to get them in the space. We're all trying to recruit high school students to the school. So we will go around to the different high schools and speak to the different high schools. We also would go speak to the different community colleges in the San Diego area and let them know, Hey, San Marcos is a place to be. We have a Black Student Center as well. And that kind of helped bring in some of the Black students. So even while I worked there, I ended up seeing about eight Black students that I met at high school and recruited coming to San Marcos. So that was definitely a good feeling to see people that I spoke to when they were ninth to tenth grade and tried to, Hey, you just--you should, you should come to San Marcos. You know, we're building the Black culture there. You live here. Your parents are here. Bring in you in your parents and then them and their parents would show up to orientation. You talk to them again. And then they ended up making a decision to stay there. We actually got to directly affect and help Black students come to the campus. Without having a Black Student Center, we don't have as good a sell. So it's kind of helped improve Black students even applying to the school. Another thing was about grades. We need recidivism. We need to, we need to keep students here. So we know that freshman year is a big year for a lot of Black students. And we have a large amount of Black students that drop out in their freshman year, all throughout the CSU and UC systems. We need to impact that. We need to get those numbers down. We don't need people dropping out so much. So a part of this is there was a mentorship and that was a tutor program. And then the center connected with the tutoring center to try to help students and we let them come in here and give a, give a lot of presentations. And then maybe we can get some Black students working in the tutoring center and they do their hours here in our space. So that was an initiative that was pushed. And I was actually a tutor as well for some of the Black students. So now where these Black students may be uncomfortable or may not feel like they can get as much help from some professors or some other classmates or anything like that, they now were able to get that help in the Black Student Center. And then another thing was programming things. So getting students in there, recruiting students or recidivism and increasing people's GPA. And then, then we also got programming. And with that programming we're--we want to bring Black specific programming. That's going to increase students, graduating, going into higher education, learning more about their history, learning more about politics and society. And then what ways that they can maybe get through, past, and over traumas that are facing the whole Black community, what ways and what measures they can use moving forward. Ayana Ford: So do you think that's the main purpose of the center’s creation in your opinion? Jake Northington: For me? Yes, but I think other people would give different responses because I think everybody gets something different from the center. When you aim to do this, this, this, this, and this, and now each one of us can take what we need from the space. Like, Okay, I really need this. I really need that. I really need that. So if nothing else everybody loves it because it is a space for Black students. So if nothing else, I would think that would be the one thing everybody could say. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like that purpose should be--it's especially being accomplished now? Jake Northington: Yes, it definitely is. Yeah. Ayana Ford: I'm glad to hear. So what has been the impact that you see the Black Student Center is doing on the campus today? Jake Northington: It's bringing Black students and faculty together every day in an ongoing situation that never (technical difficulties) never was given a space, a space for Black faculty and students to operate together. So a lot of Black faculty would put on events. They would put on presentations ; they would give workshops and things like this. Well, now having a center, this could happen right here in the center. So now we have directly faculty and staff that are Black, giving presentations to Black students. So where we may not have as many Black teachers, all of us, all of the Black students now have an opportunity to have that back and forth in some of those mentorships. And getting some of those can, maybe they can get help with resume writing, maybe they can get help with mental health and counseling. So all of these things were able to happen now to have that space for the faculty and staff to kinda mix and mingle with the students in a professional setting to where we can make these things happen now. Some of those lacking areas that we have for Black students, those things were now able to get accomplished because we have a space to put these people in, in an everyday basis. So that was a lot tougher to do when you just have Black students walking around and then you, you may never cross paths. A lot of faculty and staff got to meet students they would never normally meet because we have a hub now – we have a home base. So I think that's one of the most important things that have happened. And so many students now are more engaging of each other. Where come from all the Black people speak to each other. I came out here It wasn't so much the same because people are more spread out and they may be not used to seeing so many Black people like that in one space. I actually heard that from many students from the Murrieta Riverside County area that came to San Marcos, most of them had the same response. “It was ten Black people at my high school,” stuff like that. Every day I was the only Black person in class. Well, now all of those students are here and they're sharing those same stories. And now they can kind of help each other out and help get through some of these things and talk about, you know, how that may have affected their identity, has affected their personality, or affected their self-esteem. So then we can address some of these things. I mean, that's just some of the things that have come about, since having a Black Student Center, Ayana Ford: How do you feel like the Black Student Center impacted you personally? Jake Northington: I mean, hey, I got a job (laughter). I wasn't--personally, it gave me a space to use some of my skills. I think that's how it impacted me the most. So I was able to practice my photography. I didn't take pictures before I came to school, but those things kind of happened at the same time. I started working at the Center like right at the same time. All of that kind of came together at once. So now I got to practice my photography and I've since put out a bunch of photobooks and I've done so many different photo projects on campus for the Black Student Center. And of course, archived all of those pictures. The twenty thousand photos I've taken over the course of a few years. It gave me time to practice my study. So my actual program is the Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. Everything from class with my occupation and with going through different programs within the center. I was able to bring everything from the center and all of those became my projects for class, all of my homework projects, all of my midterm things I had to do in art classes. I got everything from the Black Student Center, even some of my sociology classes and papers I had to write. I was able to get all of my information I needed from the center. So then other students did the same thing as well. If I have a paper to write and I needed, and I need books to read, I go right to the center. And I got all these, these books to choose from, so I don't have stuff that already exists, or I need to interview students cause I'm doing my psych class, and I need to interview a couple of students, here they are right here in the center. I have to do these surveys for, for this class or that class. And I get to come out and hand out my surveys in the center. So many students were able to take advantage of those things, where they wouldn't be able to do before, because before I have to stand outside of the USU (University Student Union) and ask people to help me, Hey, would you like to take this survey for my class? Hey, would you like to? And that's what we were doing before I had to do that for one of my classes. Once we got the space, we could do it right here and get assistance with your projects, with homework, everything. And then we also were able to--I was so happy that I was able to help different students sign up for classes because so many students coming out of high school, don't look at college in the whole scope of: this is what I need to do freshman year, sophomore, junior, senior year. And I need to be transitioning into resume writing and application to grad school. All of those things don't necessarily hit our community in the same way it does for everybody else. We have to--and just me being able to help some of the students. I mean, I really enjoyed that cause you're able to go through an online process of signing up for classes. And now I could sit directly and talk to them through of, Hey, let's take two hard classes, two easy classes and one medium class and that'll be your five classes. Don't just put them all up here, you know? What they put out here for people to take is a skeleton to work off of. You don't necessarily have to just take these classes in a row like that because you're coming from a lower economic area, maybe from downtown San Diego, maybe they didn't concentrate so much in mathematics. So now you need to take a few math classes before you get to college math--then okay, that's fine! Now let's take that at a junior college or let's take one of the lower maths we can, online. Let's take this, this, this, or how about this? Some of us started to take classes together so we could help each other and not just be in a class by ourselves and not have anybody to bounce ideas off of, or ask for assistance with our homework. And now we can share a book. A lot of those things now we're able to happen because we had the space. And I was just so happy to be able to help other students because I didn't have a difficult time through school. I mean, I got all A’s and everything and a couple of B’s. That's all, that's what I had the whole time, San Marcos. So, you know, I didn't have a problem with class whatsoever, but I knew other people did so to be able to help people, and help them with papers and help them with getting their courses together, help them with any remediation they needed. And it's just to help your people. When that's your intent, it feels good to be able to do that. And I think a lot of people got that out of the center too. Not just me. Ayana Ford: What do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Hmm. That five-year anniversary! That's what I expect to see next. But I mean, John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is doing such an amazing job, this guy needs a Nobel peace prize. It's just so much that that's happening. It's almost (unclear) so he does, he does a lot of work in collaboration with other (student identity and inclusion) centers. So, so much collaboration has happened. It seems like he has that down pat, but for the center itself, more programs! Like a wider touch in San Diego. We need to really get San Marcos on the map in the same level as San Diego State. You walk around anywhere in San Diego County, and everybody's heard of San Diego State. So it's an option. It's 13-year-olds that have heard of San Diego State, so it's an option. We need to make CSU San Marcos and option for Black students. So this means we have to do more promotion. We have to stretch out more to the middle schools and high schools and getting the word out. We have to do more collaboration and more efforts to do programming outside of the campus, or at least show ourselves outside of the campus and people need to know that there's a Black hub of people at Cal State San Marcos. So that's one thing that I would like to see that needs to happen. One thing that is in the works is the Black alumni chapter. I started everything rolling with that and it just pulling people in to be a part of it and everybody can play whatever role they choose. So to have a Black alumni network. Now we have something for our graduates to fill a need. “I'm looking for employment. I am looking to go to grad school, I'm looking to get a PhD. I'm looking to relocate.” Whatever, we need an alumni network to help with that. So for us to not have our own alumni network would do us a disservice. Just continuing to build that Black network up at San Marcos. So I paid my alumni dudes. I'm full alumni, lifetime membership. Now I'm going to help support in any type of way I can. So, let me see what else? I would like to see us have a bigger space. As our student population is growing, we need a bigger space. These were, this was a very small room, and they knocked the wall down to try to open it up a little bit. This was a very small prayer room before it became the Black student center. It needs to be bigger space. I think they (other student centers on campus) had more of an intention of this is going to be a space for this particular thing. They're a little more wide open and they have a little more space. But when it came to the Black Student Center, there was not a designated area. So they had to find a space and kinda adjust the space to give to us, but it was just a smaller space. Well, the Black student population is growing. We also need the space to be used by Black faculty and staff. I would like to see us get a bigger space, much bigger space, at least three times. It's entirely too small. I would like to see the center get a graduate assistantship. So like the rest of the spaces have, there should be a graduate assistantship at the space and also a user space for, I would like to see more archives. And that's the whole point of this project. That's why I--I mean, I don't know if they told you, but this was my idea. I came up with this idea to add this project. After I was involved in another project I did where I got interviewed and I was like, you know what? It would be great if we can do this for the center, because this can't be lost. All of these things that so many, so many Black students that came here did--maybe even the Black students way before us. And then some of their names get lost and they don't get mentioned. We have to recognize all of the Black people that made the effort to get us this space because this space is a foundation now. And while we have the time and it's only been a couple of years, let's get that story told, let's put it out there, let's set the foundation and let's keep building the archives of the space. So I would like all the Black students, faculty and staff involved to be a part of this. This is something to look back to, like this was done, this was established, and we all came together to make this happen. So that does a lot of great work as far as inspiration. If you get a Black student as a freshman coming into the school and they see this was done by Black students, faculty and staff came together to make this happen. And it was just this recent, you know, three, four years ago. I mean that does, that does a good job for inspiration. And you get to actually talk to the people who help make this happen? That does a good deal of inspiring students to want to be active. And the more active you are as a student, the more likely you're going to stay in school, more likely we're going to graduate. So we want this to just keep cycling through and keep building and keep building. Those are some of my thoughts as far as moving forward with the center. Ayana Ford: To backtrack on what you said, do you know, do you have any connection with the different leaders in this project and their contribution to the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Oh, oh you want to hear some names? Ayana Ford: Yeah. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Well, (Tiffaney Boyd) the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) president and she was also, think she was president or vice president of BSU (Black Student Union) at one point. So she's definitely--I mean, if it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have the center. Like we have some major names and, and, so her. Jamaéla Johnson, she was also an officer, maybe vice president or president of the BSU at a point. They all kind of, you know, took turns being the president. Everybody was the president at different times. And she was also at ASI. Then we have Akilah Green who was (unclear) one point. And she was also an ASI. So you had these three Black women at ASI during all of--they did most of the legwork, as far as the paperwork, the resolution, the promotion of it, bringing this information to the BSU, letting us know what's going on, the ins and outs of all of the meetings. Because I, you know, me as a student and other students, we could go to some meetings, but we were not going all of the meetings. You know? So as an ASI member, they were there for like every meeting and they had other meetings with administration and stuff like that. That we were not going to. So they would say, Wait this is the process, this is what's happening. Now. This is what's happening. Now, this is what the student body can do. This, this, this, and this. And then they also established partnerships with other people outside of the Black community on campus that helps support this resolution. So, without those three we wouldn't have this space. I hope their picture goes up in the center. That's one of the things I pushed for from day one, day one when the center opened and I hope this eventually happens: their picture and their name should go up as far as these are the most significant people, Black students (in the process of getting the Center), they should be mentioned. Ayana Ford: Speaking of programs, by the way, you had mentioned earlier, have you been involved in making any programs specifically? Jake Northington: Yeah, I was more events. More events. Some of the programming has been more collaborative. It wasn't just a simple thing. And most of the programs are mimicking other programs, because these are programs that need to exist in all of the centers. So like a mentorship program, we made one for us. Or the tutoring program. Again, that's something that's needed everywhere. Or you know, we--some of the ideas I came up with was, Hey, we need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to speak about this. So things we couldn't get people to speak about, like maybe historical context things, or certain things as far as how, how we're affected by different weather patterns, anything, whatever you want to think of. Art, Black art, or Black music, any not really a specific major for somebody to speak about, maybe not. I started to create PowerPoint presentations and create classes and go do the research myself. And then I would give some of these classes in the Black Student Center to different faculty and staff and students. And different people would come in and I would give the class right here on the big screen in the center. And you know, that was something I was able to do, so I did quite a few of those. So as an individual, I did some of those things, but everything else was pretty much a collaborative work. So Black Panthers, of the Black Panther Party. People that still kind of live in the San Diego region that maybe worked in Oakland or worked in the San Diego, L.A. region, when they were teenagers operating in the Black Panther Party, those people came to speak. Creating events such as Black Women's Appreciation. So that was, that was another event that I had a lot of hand into. I was like, We should do this. Like we should appreciate all the Black faculty and staff. So we need to make an event for Black faculty and staff, and then for the women, and kind of gave out and created our own letters of recommendation or a letter of appreciation that was handed out to all of the people. And then, and of course I was there taking pictures. So it was more about all of us sitting together at the table and kind of tossing out ideas. Everybody kind of played a different hand in that. And then the ideas that made sense, we got together and move forward. Ideas that maybe didn't make so much sense, we kind of held it on for later. So that's kind of the process of how that worked. Ayana Ford: You also mentioned taking photographs at the events and such. So how do you think that impacted the people around at the Black Student Center? Seeing themselves? Jake Northington: That's, again, that's such a great impact because as of right now, there's a huge picture in the center right now covering one of the walls. And it's a picture I took of one of the Black students that graduated. And it's just--it may be the biggest impact. Because as we know, just visibility, you know, positive promotion and propaganda of Black students, when you go on that website for any (unclear) that pop up, almost are never Black. You know, when you walk through the halls and you see the pictures on the walls, they're just, you may not ever see a Black person. When you just walk around campus, it just may never happen. So, you don't feel as invested or as included in your own campus. So to see yourself in these photos, to see yourself on the wall, it just really emboldens people to want to be here, to love the choice that they made for being at that school. And it just helps them enjoy school a lot more. I saw so many eyes light up or when I would take pictures at the event, I would make a slideshow and then it would be up on the screen, just rotating all day. When people walked in, they would eat lunch or hang out or do a little homework or whatever they did, and it would just rotate. And then on the regular, right after the event, two or three days later, everybody's in the center, like, Where's the photo, where's the photos? And then they're looking through and everybody's pointing and laughing and go, Oh, remember this, remember this? It just keeps adding to the enjoyment and experience of just being there and being on the campus. I mean, I really love (unclear). I think it just, it just, it helps in a way that you can't even measure. So to have pictures of yourself, enjoying college with other Black students here, it's immeasurable. Ayana Ford: Are there any other questions I should have asked that I did not? Jake Northington: (laughs) Let me see. Maybe, I don't know. What are we doing now? Are we actively doing the things to continue with the mission statement? Has the mission statement changed? Are we, are we on the mission right now? Do we have a new mission now, now that it's been three-plus years? Ayana Ford: Hmm. So what do you think? What's the new mission-- Jake Northington: Or something like that. Ayana Ford: So what do you think-- Jake Northington: I think the same mission. Yeah. I think the same mission should continue. And I think there is a new mission though. So a new mission would be to get more Black people hired as staff and faculty on campus. Being a student there over the years, a lot of the Black students that graduated, they're gone, that's it. You don't see them again. We don't get a lot of Black students hired now back into the campus. But I do see this from other groups. And then I see this across all other campuses and colleges, universities. We need to get a push for our Black graduates to be rehired back into their alma mater of CSU San Marcos. I think that needs to happen. The school is getting bigger. So since I left, they built a couple more dorms. They built like the dining facility. They built quite a few more ; the Extended Learning Building, think they're going to build another parking structure. So as these things continue to increase so should our Black faculty and staff and student population. I'd like to see a push to get the campus more involved in making those things happen, because that shouldn't be a job just put on us. The campus should be involved in the recruitment of Black students and the hiring of more Black faculty and staff. We don't need to be an exchange situation where, okay, we lost three Black faculty members. We're going to go hire two. It shouldn't be happening like that. We should be expansively growing as--as while the campus is growing. So that definitely needs to happen. And I’d like to see a lot more support from the campus, as far as the other students go, and other faculty. Black Student Center events–we should be able to look around and see a sea of people that are not Black. We should see the support of everybody who professes to support all students. Then you can reflect your support by showing up. So we have a few people from the Dean of Students, we got a few people from the other centers that have been consistently supporting the Black Student Center the whole time, but we don't see a grand amount. We don't see large amounts. To have 17,000 plus people on campus, we should see some of that when there was a Black Student Center event, just like it is when there's an event for another center or event for another space or event for somewhere else. That same support of showing up. I'd like to see that happen moving forward. And that should be a point of emphasis because that's only going to keep growing us even at a higher rate. Ayana Ford: So how do you think that the campus can reach out some more? You had mentioned before through middle schools and high schools. So you have any other ideas of how they can reach out more to Black students? Jake Northington: Yes. The Office of Communications could do a (technical difficulties). I think that has changed now. When I was there, I didn't see it, see it as much, but I still get the emails. I see it a little bit more right now, so that's good. And they can keep pushing the events. As the Black Student Center or the Black Student Union, or other Black clubs and organizations that are putting on events, the Office of Communications can do a great job with supporting those events by promoting them on all the digital signages and all the flyers. ASI could do a better job of supporting, the USU could do a better job. So just support us by promoting our events when we put them out there. Great help. Instead, Black students having to go person to person to try to get somebody to show up to the Black Student Center events. And that's a struggle that not every other group has specifically. Some people may, some people may not, but that really hinders the Black Student Center’s effect--as far as it could have a greater effect if we got more people. Everybody has to help us with that. That's not a burden that should just be put on the Black students. And also we need to work on lowering that, those parking passes (Ford and Northington laugh). That’s always a fight. Ayana Ford: It really is. So over the years, you've seen over the years have you seen a giant shift the way Black students are seen on San Marcos campus, through the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I wouldn't say giant shift. I can't really speak to that because everything that we were facing on the campus, we pretty much still face. So I don't know if I can answer that question. I've been away from the campus for like over a year now. I can’t really answer that. But while I was there, it was the same wall in front of us the whole time I was there. So once I left, I don't know how much that has changed. So the, like the comfort level of people, the hesitance to help or support, or the hesitation to be around us as much. And I can't speak to how much that's changed. I know some people in some areas have gotten a little more comfortable, but as an overall campus, I don't know about that. I dunno. I have though--I mean, the new president seems like she's doing a good job and it seems like it's on track for that to happen, so I would say I would put it that way. It seems like they're on the track, on the right track. Ayana Ford: (technical difficulties, interview stopped recording) So, do you, are you able to see the record button now? Jake Northington: Nope. But if you’re-- Ayana Ford: It's saying recording on my side. Do you see? Jake Northington: This recording? I hope you get-- Ayana Ford: Okay. It says it's back to recording. Did the box come up for you? Jake Northington: Nope. Ayana Ford: Okay. It's recording. So I want to go back a bit on your photography, on how you talked about taking photos for the Black Student Center. So you had mentioned that you had books in the Black Student Center. Jake Northington: Yes. Yes. Ayana Ford: So what was then, so what were the books in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I'm glad you asked that, I've got them right here, since we're talking about it. I didn't, I didn't think we were going to talk about it, but since we gonna talk about it and let's talk about it. So, again, this is a study I did through the Black Student Center for one of my classes. So I took an independent study in my photography class, and I wanted to do similar to like a yearbook, but for Black students on campus. So for the years to come, people would always remember these times and that this happened and that this was around because we don't have a concerted effort of: here are the archives of photos of Black people on this campus. So since that doesn't exist, I was like, I'm going to start it. So the idea was every year to go around and capture some very good photos, as much as I could, of just different Black people on campus and around campus. And then I put a focus to it. Because I want it to add a social aspect to it. I wanted to make a corrective measure. It's an attempt to make a correction of a social issue. So, and then all the books go together. They create one sentence. So the titles of every book create one sentence. So this is the first book. (Northington holds up a book to the camera, soon starts flipping through its pages) It's called Hueman and it's spelled H-U-E meaning like, the hue or the tone or the skin color. I can show you a few pictures throughout the book. And I created these books to kind of change how people saw Black students on campus. And this was specific to the Black men. So, walking around campus, a lot of (Black men) are considered, you know, something negative. People love to use that same stereotypical word as thug or criminal, and, and we need to detach those verbs and those negative nouns to black men. So the idea for this book was, Hey, be yourself, be who you are, be what you are, and just sit here and give me a natural calm, solemn look. And we want to capture that. And I wanted to also show the campus. So a part of this was to show that the entire campus too. So we want to walk around and show the campus different areas of the campus, all different. And these Black men have a different mixture of ethnic backgrounds. And then we just wanted to go around and get a little bit of everybody. And when they saw this book, (laughter) I mean, people lost their minds. It's like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow. This is amazing. This is this. And that's the best part of it for me. How well people received the book was the best part to me. So I went to add a positive adverb. So when you saw this Black face of a Black man and you attach it to that adverb, this is kind of how propaganda works. So propaganda, it can be positive or negative. When you see a news article or a magazine and they put a picture and words, you combine that together and you get a thought in your head and they could kind of help curb some stereotypes that people have of Black men. So this one says philosophical. So I want you to be able to see this face and know that this person is philosophical. And let's add that together. And I actually know most of the people in his book. So this guy was--he worked in the art building and you know, that wouldn't come across if people just use the stereotypes. And then this is a Polaroid picture of me in the center, one of the first semesters working there. And in the book, I would put the thank yous and then I would translate it into an African language, so it also becomes a teaching tool. So this book is translated into Bantu and Bantu is spoken in South Africa by the Xhosa tribe, in Cape town, South Africa. So, and then this was completed in 2017, the first year of the center, so that's book one. Well, man, I had to keep it going. I had to keep it going. I didn't think I was going to keep it going, but everybody loved the book so much. It's like, All right, let me keep it going. (Northington holds up another book) So then this is the women's book, and this is actually the photo that's up in the center right now. So the big photo, it is on the wall in a Black Student Center. And this is, I love this photo. So, Janeice Young that's who that is, Janeice Young. I think she graduated in 2018? Yeah. Janeice Young. She worked in the-- So then I'll put a little bit, a little poem here. That's only my words that I wrote. And then this book is for Black women specifically. So I wanted to promote Black women being who they are, being them natural selves, loving school with them smiling and enjoying life because I wanted to get rid of, or aleve them in some out of the stereotype of being an angry Black woman. Of being loud or being obnoxious. So we're--we want to get away from those types of stereotypes and that type of negative casting. So then, just went around and taking all of these good photos. And I mean, they took a while. Some of these opportunities were like, I would have to take seventy or eighty photos to--and then pick out the one really good one that I liked. And I was able to enter some of these in art competitions, which went pretty well. That photo is actually taken in the center early on center. The center looks a lot different. So, you know, that's one of the archival pieces anymore, its a lot different. So now these people have all different majors, again, all different mixtures. Some of these people are from different countries around the planet. And I wanted--to kind of this be like a promotional tool as well. So I started to bring these to the orientations as well and show other students ; “Look, look, you can be in the next book.” And it really inspired a lot of students. And that's the SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences) building. So I just got all positive reviews ; everybody that was in the book, everybody that saw the book, everybody just keeps saying positive things about it. So I think it was a good idea. It ended up being a great idea. And some of these people worked in the center before, like both of them. So I think she's graduating right now. She worked in the center. And then this is more archival footage. There's--the Extended Learning Building is now back here, and another dorm building that didn’t exist then. And then this is one of the dramas--and this is one of the feeder campuses MiraCosta. So it's a community college that feeds into this school. And then this was taken inside of the USU (University Student Union). So it was right in front of the campus. I love it. I love it. And then again, the teaching tool in this book, this was translated into Somali and it's spoken in Yemen, Djibouti, Somalia, Kenya. And then I also get to get a little help from some of the students who are from African countries, and they help translate. So it's a whole group effort. And then, that book is called “Solar Amalgamations.” And this is the third and final book (Northington holds up a third book). This is the one I most recently completed before I left campus. And this book is called “We Are,” so the focus of this book was to show us together. So first we had the book about the men and changing the negative images in the book and the book about women and changing a negative stereotype. And then now I want to bring these people together and show men and women together, you know, enjoying a campus, the campus life, something that we rarely get to see Black students doing. You may see some Black students in diversity photos, or something like that, students together and some of these photos. So again, I put some nice little positive words and a little bit of a poem. And then that's the front steps of the campus and you just got students walking around and much of this looks like a commercial. It looks just like a, you know, a little magazine article or something like that. And that's the feel I wanted to give off. I wanted people to be able to look through here and just see, hey, just regular students. This is Keenan. He plays a guitar all the time. And my man, Sam, he's a skateboarder. So we get to see a lot of these things. So ideally enjoying campus together and that's and that's a really good photo. So I'm sure they're going to look back on this ten, fifteen, twenty years from now and remember that day and what they were laughing about. So, that's the point. I mean, I love it. You might recognize some of these people, maybe, maybe not. That was the point of this book and, let's get to the end. Oh, there go--my favorite two people right there, Ms. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ms. Ariel (Stevenson). You will be interviewing them soon. Shamar. And then some of these students now work in the Black Student Center. It's just a whole, well, just circle to circle. Kiki, Taj – he worked in the center for a while. So we got a little bit of everybody. And then and at the end of each book, I always put a photo of myself too, just to, you know, who the artist was. And this is actually a photo with two photos from the previous book that's in the art show at the campus. They had an art show on campus and they asked me to put my stuff in the art show. So I submitted it and they got picked for some of the final pieces. A lot of students submitted and then mine got picked. And so it was just a good reflection to show it in the book, actually a photo from the art show. And then this one was translated into Swahili. Swahili is spoken in Tanzania, Congo and Kenya as well, or Rwanda and other places. So, and just show us there holding hands. And then all the--all three books, the sentence that it completes is: “We are human solar amalgamations.” So those are the three titles. “We are,” “Hueman,” and “Solar Amalgamations.” And that pretty much loosely means, “We are stars.” That's what that means. And then that completes one project. And now I'm going to move on to work on a different project for Black people. Ayana Ford: So by keeping these archives, would you say that--how would you say that it impacted, the art, I mean, the environment of the Black Student Center? Because you can go back and look at the history, how do you think that impacted students? Jake Northington: I think it makes students really feel good about who they are and what they are. It just makes us feel good. It's like, Okay, I can do this too! And then it was just done last year or the year before, or just, there's been a history of Black people before me that came here as a freshmen or sophomore, and they made these things happen. I can also do it. These people got involved and you start to see some of the same faces. Oh, she was also the president here. She was also the vice president here. She was also in the Academic Senate. She did this, this, this, and this. She graduated ; she got these awards. If she can do it, So can I. If he can do it, so can I. So to continue to see people that look like you do these things at the same school, again, it's only as inspiration. And it helps a lot of our students coming in to even give more effort, to be involved, to be around, to start to do some of the work themselves and to--and now we can kind of pull some of these people in to get into doing things as such as going to graduate school, or now they might be more apt to accepting help in the areas that they need help in, because that becomes a hurdle. A lot of students don't want to ask for help because they don't want to feel unintelligent. They don't want to ask for support because they don't want to feel like they're in poverty. And they don't want to feel judged. Well, that's a real thing. So if we can show a little more, if we can speak a little more about our experiences so we have--we get to show up as a graduate or as a senior and say, Hey, look, I had to stretch out a few dollars throughout the month. I had tough, tough times in this particular history class or that particular class. This is why I reached out for help. I went to the food pantry for this. I went to the tutoring lounge for this. I went to this for this. Now that allows a link in a chain to be made, to help Black students succeed more when that's the point: to keep them here and to graduate them and prepare them for life after the university. So I think just the pictures up, just having the photos add to that. Each thing we do on campus for the Black students and for Black Student Center all adds to the overall goal of keeping students there, recruiting students and graduating students, it all adds. And now building that Black alumni chapter. Now we take it even a step further. So every part of this process was necessary. Every single person that was involved was necessary, and I just think they all should be mentioned and named. And whether it has a big plaque made to put everybody's name on it, or we definitely need to get that Tiffany, Jamaéla, and Akila photo and plaque up in the center, you know, stuff like that before too many years, it'd be forgotten. You don't need these events or these situations to be forgotten. These people should be remembered. And everybody needs to know that this occurred. Because we have to think back: 1989 the school was established. There have been many Black people to come to this school since 1989. Well, since then many Black people have tried to make change on this campus. We may never know their names. We may never know the change they was trying to create. We may never know about the five, eight, ten attempts to get a Black Student Center, but we can't let stuff like that continue. We need to reach back and try to find those stories and we need to establish something to move forward. That's what makes--we're so lucky that we got Gezai (Berhane) here because Gezai’s the first Black graduate, so we could kind of get some of those stories from then to now. And we can kind of connect the 30-year path of this campus and Black action on this campus. And we can connect those thirty years together and kind of tell that story and kind of add and add to it, add to that. I really love that about this project and I'm just so happy it was able to happen and that people want to be involved with this. Because this is going to affect the Black community forever on this campus. Ayana Ford: Yeah, absolutely agree. Well, that is all the questions I had. Do you have any more, anything else you would like to add? Jake Northington: Yeah. I’d like to thank Ms. Marilyn McWilliams and Ms. Ariel Stevenson, because I probably would not still have stayed on the campus, and I might've transferred, if it wasn’t for people like them. Because they add a good element of support that you may never get. You know, because when I got here, we didn't have a center. It's (hard) to find spaces to get some, you know, just to be able to go talk out ideas, to be able to go, just relax a bit, to get to step away from the campus while you're still on campus. So, I was able to go visit their office and just sit down and get some little, I guess they would call it counseling or mentorship or whatever people describe that as, but to be able to just sit down and just talk to them and be like, All right, this is what's going on campus right now. This is happening. This is happening. And they were able to give me (advice), Hey, you can go here to get that handled. You can talk to this. You can go to this meeting. You know, to have people to be able to point me in the right directions to get some of these things accomplished. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be able to walk into all these directions. And I probably wouldn’t have been as involved as I was. When they encourage all of the Black students--and those are two staff members that show up to everything that's been done by the Black Student Center and by the BSU. And they've all, they've consistently shown up, those two. Most of the Black students have probably seen them or spoken to them or even met with them quite a few times. So without them, it would be a totally different story, so (laughs) I can't leave anybody out. Ayana Ford: Well, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you for this project. And thank you so much. Jake Northington: Thank you! (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So Mr. Northington what is your major? What was your major at (California State University) San Marcos. Jake Northington: So, I came to San Marcos in the spring 2016 and I graduated fall 2019. So my major was Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. My first minor is Ethnic Studies. Ayana Ford: So what got you into photography? Jake Northington: Just the class that was on my list. My intention was to do digital art and media. So that's the point of signing up for that program. But while in the program, one of the class options to take was a photography class to meet some of the requirements. So I took that class and I just liked it. And it seemed doable and it was not as hard as I thought photography was, at least not for me. I thought it was more difficult than what it was. So the teacher did a very good job at teaching us how to use any camera so you don't have to just get one and that's it. She kind of showed us how to use all cameras of all brands and how to manipulate the camera and, you know, just all the lighting techniques and everything we needed to use. And then in addition to that, CSU San Marcos has a great support system for all the areas of art. They have a music studio, they have an art studio, they have a dance studio and they have a recording studio within the library as well. Having all of those options, you're allowed to really practice your craft. I was able to go check out studio time in the library on the first floor in the library and continue to just take photos, take photos, do recordings and it allowed practice because I saw what I wanted things to look like in my head, but I couldn't physically do it yet with the camera. Just having this person as a teacher and then having those elements available on this campus, it allowed me to now get time to sharpen these things up and get my photos to the point where I wanted them to look like. And it really, I just--I was excited from the beginning because all I thought about was photographing Black people on campus. Like, I know we need this. This has to be. And then I had to go sell it, like, okay, who's gonna buy this? And I don't mean sell it as far as money. I mean, sell the idea of putting this up on campus. There were no photos up of Black people on campus when I showed up. So I was--and then you walk around another year, goes by. And then I saw one picture and this was a Black woman who was a track athlete on the campus. And then that's the only thing I saw. I'm like, We have to change that. My whole idea was: I got to learn how to use this so I could put out all of these things and I can show up to all these events and take the pictures, because everybody's just taking pictures on their phones or something like that. And it's not, you know, it's not enough. People just have personal photos on their phones. I'm like, No, I have to do this. So I actually went around and took pictures, for ASI, for all types of groups on campus, and I just kept getting practice, kept getting practice. By the time the center opened, I had a good year in. And then I was like, Okay, I think I can start to help. And then I started. Just kept doing it, kept doing it, the whole idea behind that first class was, I need to do promotion of Black people because I have to put these positive images of Black people out here. So, and it just, you know, some of the photos I ended up using for flyers, some of them, I ended up using for some of my PowerPoint presentations in different classes and it just continued to grow and continue to grow. And I still use a lot of them today and now everybody loves it. And then a lot of the students got free photos out of it. Because people like, “Oh, I want a photo shoot. I want a photo shoot.” So now I'll go do a little photo shoot, give them all the photos. And then we sit together and go, okay which, give me the top three that you like. And I'll pick between one of those three to go into the book. And that's how those things happen. So I let them help me decide which photos actually went into the book because this is going to promote you and show you. You want to show yourself how you want to show yourself. I love it. So that's what got me into photography. And then I later went on to just work professionally with a couple of groups in San Diego for about four or five years. And it only stopped because you know, everything going on right now (referring to the COVID-19 pandemic). But, I just continued to do photography. Ayana Ford: Well, any, do you have anything else to add? Anything you can think of? Jake Northington: Well, I would say once we got the Black Student Center, it also opened up job opportunities for Black students that didn't exist before. So previously Black students were in competition with everybody else on campus to work everywhere for student workers. So--some people may have reservations about Black people or some people may believe in stereotypes. And any other reason that hinder Black students from having the same job opportunities on campus as other students. When we walk, you walk around and see all these USU (University Student Union) workers, see all of the people working in different departments. Again, you just don't see a lot of Black students. You don't see, you know, three, four or five of them and that's it. Well having a Black Student Center now opened up more job opportunities and now opened up spaces for Black students to come in and practice being a professional worker in the world, because maybe you push buggies for Ralphs (supermarket chain). Maybe you load the groceries at Walmart, but you haven't done a professional job in a professional setting. You haven't done report writing. You haven't put on events. So this now opens up an arena for Black people and Black students to kind of practice some of these jobs skills or even have a job opportunity on campus. That became a big thing that didn't exist before. So now over the years, Black students now have an area, Hey, I can apply here and I might have a good chance to get a job. And this might--you might have a better chance getting a job at the Black Student Center and then everywhere else on campus combined. So it opened that up. And then a lot of other students kind of what, that may be not have worked before, they wanted to work. And they could have been here freshman, sophomore year, didn't care to work, but then by junior year they were like, Oh, you know what? I want to work in the Black Student Center. They putting on all these amazing events. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of the creation. I want to build a part of this. Some students actually did that. And then some students came to the campus with the idea of working in the Black Student Center. Because you know, them and their parents were going over this like, Okay, you're going to stay on campus. You--this is going to be your major. This is going to be a class period. What are your opportunities for working? The center is now listed in the opportunities for on-campus jobs. So I think that was a great help as well. And it's still. Right now (the BSC) have served as a great help over the time, because look at how many Black students have worked in the center now over the years. All of those students would not have a job, at least not there. So now it'd be a little more difficult for them to work somewhere else without that opportunity. And these skills just go along with the rest of your life. Now, and I just think it built, it just builds a lot of love and comradery within the Black community on campus, which then in turn, turns into a lot more Black people walking around, feeling better about themselves, and maybe they have a better day or maybe their grades are a little bit better. Maybe they don't have as hard a time studying. And maybe they feel better just about walking around and being on campus. So these things really have a great effect. And the Black Student Center is just, that's the greatest place on campus. I would eat my meals in there when I was on campus. I'm getting my food, I'm coming to eat here. So people started doing that. People would normally go off campus and go to some fast-food restaurant and hang out, eat, and then come back to campus. Not anymore. They go pick their food up and come back to eat it in the center to be around people and to talk and, you know, have a little fun and play a few games or something before they go back to class. So it just is building community. And that, again, that's another thing that just can't be measured. I hope it's here until the end the time. We should have the Black student center. And I'm trying to come back to the 25th anniversary, to the 70th anniversary. Lastly, I'm just ready for next year to have this (project of oral histories) presented. However its going to be presented by video or audio, however, is coming out, transcribed. However it comes out. I'm very excited for year five (of the BSC’s existence) and all of the people that has been a part of making it happen. And I just, I thank everybody, and I'm glad my idea came to fruition and we got a nice little grant to make this happen. This was great, it happened pretty fast too. I didn't yet thank the library for their help in making it happen. Ayana Ford: Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today. Thank you. Jake: Alright. Alright. We good now? (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So, do you know of the people who push for the Black Student Center specifically, like a couple of names and how it came to be? Jake Northington: Yeah. I mean, I can give you some names. I can't name everybody, but I recognize some of the people because they were there throughout the whole time, but again, some of the students were seniors already. So, you know, they did what they could and then graduated and were gone, and then some of the students were in and out and maybe not there all the time. But a few of the students are the--there was these two twins. They were the current BSU presidents during the time when we opened the space. And their names was Danni and Darnesha, I think the last name is Thornton. Also have Ashton, you have another guy, Louis Adamsel. You have, Marvin Cook who was later to BSU president. Like once the center officially opened, he was the BSU president. You have Renee White. You have a lot of women from a sorority that was there, so then we have, Darhra Williams ; another one of the original workers in the center. Think it was originally five or six workers in the center. You have another name, Brandy Williams. Another lady ; she went to a lot of ASI meetings to try to garner support and push for the reason for us to have the center. We have--oh, there's just so many people. That's about all I can think of right now, quickly off the top of my head. So there's others, there’s others, but those are some of the main people that I would see constantly. And then there’s staff members as well. So that was Black faculty and staff members as well, that assisted along the way, Dilcie Perez. Of course, Mrs. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ariel Stevenson., so we have a lot of staff members like that, that were assisting, (technical difficulties) so involved. Other than that, I mean, you have to go back and look at pictures and kind of pull up some more names. Because remember, this is years ago, you’re talking about 2016 when all of these things were happening pretty big, so its been a few years-- Ayana Ford: And so what programs did you help create and you're involved in, in some form? Jake Northington: Yes. So I came together with a guy, Louis Adamsel again, I came together with him and we kind of talked about having a brotherhood student organization. So there was nothing specific to Black men on the campus. Everything was just, you know, it was geared to other people or groups. But there was nothing geared towards Black men. We talked about it for a while and then we started it ; he was the president. I was vice president. And the idea for that was to assist the Black men. And again, with tutoring, mentorship, help guiding them through being a student, help them out of trouble, help them with their classes, class selection, and just help them in life skills that they maybe didn't get from growing up in whatever area they're coming from. And if they did get it, it just helped them with some confidence, kind of put them in positions to where they could speak more or be seen more, and just any type of support that they needed. And that was kind of about the things we go through individually and how we could collectively change those things. And this is--and some of those guys ended up in the book (Hueman), so it's three or four of those guys went in the book, from the brotherhood. And we started that in 2017 and this was--these are one of the things that has now attached to the center as a program. And now it's called the Brotherhood Alliance. So now they're continuing it. And that was the point, you know, because the student organization does as well or as bad as the group of students that are there. Yeah. And then you get stretched thin trying to continue an organization if the organization is not very big, so something that important needed to continue. So I presented this to John Rawlins (III, previous director of the Black Student Center) and he liked the idea, he wanted to continue it. So, and then they call it the Brotherhood Alliance and they still even meet right now. And I go to some of the meetings now and they just continue it. And they have another group, a group of guys that are the president and vice-president. So he (Rawlins III) got another group of guys that's keeping it going and, and they're active on campus and hey, I love it. I'm glad it's--I'm glad it's moving. Another organization that I got started was the Black Sistahood. So we had a Black Brotherhood, Black Sistahood. So we want to have them both. You don't just, you know, I'm not into just one side of the coin. We have to help both sides because there are particular things that we go through, you know, that needs to be addressed. Well, I couldn't be in the president of the Black Sistahood, you know, I don't think that should be led by me. So I continued to pick different women on campus that I thought would fit the bill. And I wasn't getting a lot of a response back. So it took a while to kind of find somebody that wanted to take the mantle of that. But in the meantime, it was like the Black Brotherhood and Black Sistahood was housed within the Black Brotherhood. So we would still help everybody. We would still help and support the different Black women on campus, but we were not going to lead a conversation or lead a program specifically for Black women. So it was just kind of housed within the Black brotherhood. And then we would do it in a different way and we would go support the Black women, the Black womens’ sorority events and things like that. So once I finally ran into a person, Sunni Bates, she was very excited about this and she wanted to be the leader of it. And I was like, Okay, here we go! Now we got somebody that wants to lead that. So she became the president and then I didn't want to hold any type of position because that's for them, specifically. So then we went out and recruited different members and we got a bunch of ladies together who were not active in any other groups and it was like, Okay, here's another, here's another club to push Black people--help Black people to push themselves out of the idea of this is all we have and that's all it is, anything outside of that is wrong. And I think some people on different campuses really feel like you should only have a BSU. Anything outside of that is challenging the BSU. Well I didn't stand for that. I was like, We have to change that idea. I draw. We need to have a Black art club. These people love movies. We need a Black movie club. So these are the things we pushed around. We started to have Black movie nights. Then we have you know, a night for this, a night for that. They started a dance group. Some ladies had a dance club that they started and there's even a new dance club right now. So just to keep pushing the idea, we can have more, we can have fifteen or twenty Black student clubs. So this gives a vast array of things for Black students to be active in. When you only give them one or two, that doesn't do enough. We're all different. We all got different likes and wants and needs. So we need to spread it out, that's the other part of having a Black Brotherhood or Black Sistahood. So--and then I just operated in both of those. And again, I'm on my way out. Then John, John Rawlins was like, Hey, is this something we could kinda take on from y'all because both of y'all are going to be leaving. So I spoke with him (Rawlins III), Sunni spoke with him, and then now they have—I think they call it the Circle of Sisters. I think that's what it's called, something like that, or something close to that. So now they have that with the Brotherhood Alliance, and these are now programs housed in the Black Student Center. That didn't happen before. So now offering multiple clubs. And then now they're housed in the center versus if a few active students leave, these things may get thin or spread apart or go away, and we don't need those things to happen. So we need things that are constant and constant, and that are continually going to help the students and support the students. So I was really happy to see that happen. And then, you know, now you don't have to put that burden on a new student, showing up to try to collect the Black brothers together, collect the Black sisters together. You don't have to put that burden on them. Now they have a vehicle to operate out of, it just gives more help to a need. So then through all of these different clubs and organizations--remember, I'm an art student--so I'm not only taking pictures, I'm doing sculptures. I did a couple of sculpture things that I did for ASI and, and that I did for the Women's Center. And then the Women's Center over at the time changed their name to the Gender Equity Center, but it was the Women's Center when I got there. And then so I did this sculpture piece in collaboration with them and with ASI around saving straws. So the straw campaign happened during I was, while I was at the school. And they wanted to stop the use of as much plastics and put it together to create a sea animal, which was a sea turtle to show: look at how this affects the marine and aquatic life. And we used that to kind of help push sustainability and to end the uses of straws on campus and all these other things. So, I was able to use my artwork and all these dynamic ways, and then now I started to design logos and shirts for clubs and organizations outside of the Black Student Center and in a Black Student Union. And then that just led to so many more opportunities. I began to photograph events for the diversity office (Office of Inclusive Excellence), for ASI, clubs and just different things. And then at the end it was time for me to make my own. I've done so much for so many other people. And then just so many people, I just got so much good feedback from a lot of the t-shirts and stuff that I made. And a lot of the designs I was like, I guess it's time for me to make my own, I'm on my way out of here so I'm just going to start making some of my own stuff. So then I started making Brotherhood and Sistahood t-shirts and hoodies and sweaters and all jackets, different things like that. And I'll just keep testing out things, keep redesigning things. That's a lot of the stuff I did in my last semester. And then that ended up with their own t-shirt line. And now I make my own stuff, so I love it (Northington holds up the hoody he is wearing). And some of these things have now been sold to different colleges and universities. They contact me and I, you know, I have my own LLC, my own business. And I work with other Black student centers and diversity departments, and they buy stuff in bulk to give out to Black students across the San Diego and LA County. And so those ideas and all of that work that I was able to do, and things I was able to be a part of, and working with the different groups, and just creating and sparking new ideas led to this ; I use this to help pay for graduate school as well. So it's a nice full circle of work. Ayana Ford: Yeah. And then you still came back to San Marcos to help us with this project. Jake Northington: (laughter) Well, they haven’t let me go. So, I've done a few projects even after graduating. Once I graduated, I still did about four or five other projects post-graduation. Ayana Ford: So like, for example, for this Black student Center project, what was your direct role in getting this made? Jake Northington: Well my direct role was it was my idea to begin with, and I don't know if anybody’d thought of this before. Maybe they did, but it--and they weren't able to make it happen. And it took the right people. So like Sean Visintainer (Head of Special Collections, University Library), like John Rawlins (III, Director of the Black Student Center), it, you know, it took the right people. So the right people were here at the same time. And once the ideas got around, they were interested. Sean was interested. John was interested when I gave the idea to him. So then they started to spread out and build the team that we needed. We got a team of like five people. And with that team now, it's like, All right, let's get through the planning stage. So we spent six, eight months planning through the summer, through the winter to get through the planning stage. And then now reach out to hire students, point out all different people we needed to be involved as far as telling stories like this. And just to watch it all happen is it's just, I guess that might be more satisfying, I get to actually watch my idea happen like that. And I just hope everybody really can get something out of this, or at least get close to what I'm getting out of it. Because it's, I mean--to be a student that operates on campus and you're trying to be active and you're trying to make changes for your community? And then to see something like that happen when I knew it took years to get the Black Student Center! Years to even crack the door open. But then now this situation happened within a matter of a year, year and a half. And I'm like, Oh, this is, you know, this is great! And people are more apt to help and support--the email went out about, Hey, we're looking for students to be a part of this project and to do interviews and this, this, this, and then to start getting feedback like that, you know, I don't know if this could have happened in the same manner eight years ago, seventeen years ago. You know, the campus climate, the activities were a little different, so it just the right time and the right people. And we're able to pull this off. I mean this definitely on my resume (laughs). So it was one of the highlights on my resume to even have my name attached to this. So it--say after that, this is definitely up there. I think my, I like my books a little more, but, but this is up there. Ayana Ford: Well I’m glad you’re able to be a part of it. Jake Northington: Yeah. Ayana Ford: Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en  video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.xml NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview April 6th, 2021 Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumni. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. Jake worked in the Black Student Center and created photography that hangs in the Center. In this interview, Jake discusses his childhood growing up in East St. Louis, Illinois, how and when he came to CSUSM in 2016, and his involvement with the creation of the Black Student Center. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-01 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Student success Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant East Saint Louis (Ill.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jake Northington Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lucy Wheeler Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George and Alethea Nagata OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Nagata, George and Alethea. Interview November 16, 2022 SC027-33 1:06:45 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Japanese Americans Japanese Americans -- Forced removal and internment, 1942-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Concentration camps -- Arizona -- Yuma Poston Relocation Center (Ariz.) Agricultural laborers -- California Agricultural laborers -- Colorado Family farms -- California George and Alethea Nagata Lucy Wheeler mp4 NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.mp4 1.0:|23(9)|31(10)|38(15)|46(5)|53(9)|60(9)|67(11)|74(13)|94(17)|112(5)|133(12)|154(7)|161(3)|168(7)|179(6)|193(13)|209(14)|226(10)|233(13)|244(13)|251(14)|258(9)|272(15)|283(9)|296(17)|307(12)|314(18)|332(7)|342(5)|350(6)|364(15)|379(16)|390(7)|407(7)|415(5)|451(4)|463(3)|475(5)|483(12)|490(14)|499(14)|507(7)|518(12)|525(10)|554(7)|562(4)|583(9)|600(6)|612(9)|620(12)|627(10)|646(17)|657(3)|670(4)|677(13)|689(10)|698(9)|721(15)|757(4)|788(7)|808(6)|818(15)|826(9)|841(7)|853(9)|872(8)|930(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c63c2f7309ad26fa08b81a49964676b7.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Family backgrounds George and Alethea Nagata explain their family backgrounds. They are both second generation Japanese-American citizens. George Nagata was born in Gardena, CA in 1924. He explains that his father immigrated to the United States from the city of Kumamoto, Japan around 1900. He moved around the country working various jobs, including in farming. His parents married around 1920, and the family had a farm by the time George was born. The family later moved to Torrance, CA and then to Bellflower, CA in order find better farming conditions.&#13 ; &#13 ; Althea Nagata was born in 1926. Her parents moved around California during her early childhood, living in Orange County, Bonsall, and San Luis Rey. Her father became involved in farming after immigrating to the U.S. from Japan in 1905 and settling in Orange County, where he began growing peppers. Arizona ; Bellflower (Calif.) ; Bonsall (Calif.) ; Farming ; Gardena (Calif.) ; Immigration ; Kumamoto, Japan ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Melons ; Orange County (Calif.) ; Peppers ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey (Calif.) ; Seattle (Wash.) ; Second-generation Japanese American citizens ; Strawberries ; Texas ; Torrance (Calif.) 0 650 George Nagata’s education/ The family farm George Nagata recounts his school years as a teenager. Nagata explains that due to financial difficulties and his father’s ill health, his family was forced to commute throughout Southern California throughout his high school years, which interrupted his schooling. He was also registered at two different high schools including a school in Oceanside, CA. He also explains that his mother took over the farming duties due to his father’s health. The family harvested strawberries and Italian squash and sold the produce to the San Francisco market. Education ; Farming ; High school ; Italian squash ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Squash ; Strawberries ; Student 0 1007 George Nagata’s internment/ Work in Chicago George Nagata recounts his time at the Poston War Relocation Center, located in Yuma County, AZ. Nagata was only sixteen years old when his family was removed and interred starting May 15, 1942. He recalls the dark train ride and internees having to stuff their own mattresses with straw upon arrival to the camp. He was interned at Poston for a little over a year before leaving for Chicago, IL with a friend. He worked in Chicago in an auto mechanic shop for about four of five months before his family was released from Poston. Nagata explains that he and his family met one another again in Colorado in order to continue farm work. He farmed in Colorado for a man who owned an onion seed company. Nagata explains that he was never paid for his work. He remained in Colorado until 1944 or 1945 when he moved back to California. Auto mechanic ; Auto repair ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Colorado ; Farming ; Internees ; Internment ; Japanese internment ; Onion seed ; Santa Fe (NM.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; World War Two World War 2 Poston War Relocation Center ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 1510 George Nagata returns to California George Nagata discusses his return to Vista, CA after working in Colorado. He recounts moving into a friend’s avocado grove and stayed in a room that was converted from a chicken coop. In 1945, they found thirty acres of land that they were able to lease for a year before buying the property in order to begin farming. Nagata recalls that they originally lived on a tent on the property because there were no houses in the area. Avocado grove ; Chicken coop ; Colorado ; Farming ; Vista (Calif.) 0 1662 Alethea Nagata’s internment Alethea Nagata recounts her time at the Poston War Relocation Center located in Yuma County, AZ. She explains how her father rented land and raised strawberries in Rancho Santa Margarita. She recalls after the war broke out, her father and grandfather were arrested by the FBI and were sent to the San Diego jail before being transferred to Topanga, CA. Eventually, their entire family was sent to the Poston concentration camp. Nagata was in high school at the time of her internment. Nagata explains that her family did not experience the same harsh conditions that her husband’s family experienced. Although the Nagata’s families were both interned at Poston, the couple met after the war. Their families were also placed in different blocks at Poston. Arrest ; Farming ; FBI ; Internees ; Internment ; Japanese internment ; Poston War Relocation Center ; Rancho Santa Margarita (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Strawberries ; Topanga (Calif.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 1912 Alethea Nagata returns to California Alethea Nagata discusses returning to California after internment. She explains that her family was split up after their release from the Poston camp: her father and grandfather were sent to New Mexico, while the rest of the family returned to North County San Diego. It is unclear from the interview, but it can be inferred that her father and grandfather eventually made their way back to North County as well by 1945. Alethea Nagata’s family farm was left in the care of Escondido High School’s Vice Principal Mr. Grave and other caretakers until they could return home. Escondid High School ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Farming ; Lordsburg (NM.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Poston War Relocation Center ; San Luis Rey (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Santa Fe (NM.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 2122 Education in internment/ George Nagata’s early career in farming George and Alethea Nagata discuss their education while in the concentration camps. They explain that while Alethea was able to graduate in the Poston camp, George did not have the opportunity to go to school. George Nagata also explains that when he applied to night school in Chicago, the institution did not consider Poston an accredited school and told him he would have to start his education over before applying to their program. George Nagata also discusses how he began his career in farming. He explains the challenges he faced in obtaining and paying back loans for his supplies, and how weather conditions ruined his crops. He also describes how they later invested in a strawberry freezer business, which also led to other financial challenges for the farm. Education ; Fallbrook (Calif.) ; Farming ; Freezer business ; Loans ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Night School ; Poston War Relocation Center ; Strawberries ; Student ; Ventura (Calif.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 2664 Alethea Nagata’s family farm/ Early experimentation on crops Alethea Nagata discusses her family farm in San Marcos, CA. Alethea Nagata describes her family’s farming business, which was led by her father, and later taken over by her brothers. The family grew crops such as asparagus, chili peppers, romaine lettuce, tomatoes, and strawberries. She explains that her family also grew cauliflower, which was not a money-making crop, but it helped to maintain workers. Nagata also recounts her father teaching her to drive a Caterpillar and her sister driving trucks around the farm. She reflects how she and her two sisters were involved on the farm and how her father respected women. &#13 ; &#13 ; George Nagata also explains how he worked with Althea’s Uncle Fred to encourage the experimentation on berries. They were involved in organizations such as the Farm Bureau and the Bracero program. He also recalls how they travelled to U.C. Davis to encourage the university in developing a new variety of berries that would be suitable for Southern California. They eventually went to the Legislature and asked one of the representatives to pass a budget which would allow farmers to experiment on new varieties of strawberries. George and Alethea also explain how they met on a blind date set up by Alethea’s Uncle Fred. &#13 ; Asparagus ; Bracero program ; Cauliflower ; Chili peppers ; Davis (Calif.) ; Experimentation on berries ; Farm Bureau ; Farming ; Romaine lettuce ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Strawberries ; Tomatoes ; Truck driving ; U.C. Davis ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII 0 3211 Growth and diversity of crops George Nagata discusses the growth and diversity of crops in farming. He explains that growth and diversity began to improve when experimentation was granted in Southern California. The experiment transferred from the USDA property, to a plot in Orange County, before eventually finding home on Irvine Ranch. They developed various varieties of strawberries during the experiment. Crops ; Experimentation on berries ; Farming ; Growth and diversity of crops ; Irvine Ranch ; Orange County (Calif.) ; Strawberries ; USDA 0 3400 Farming blueberries and cherimoyas The Nagatas discuss growing blueberries and cherimoyas on their farm. They explain how labor-intensive it can be to harvest cherimoyas ; that although it is easy to grow cherimoyas in the Southern California climate, the fruit has to be hand-pollinated. Blueberries ; Cherimoyas ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Hand-pollination ; Innovation in farming ; Oceanside (Calif.) 0 3565 Future of farming The Nagatas discuss the future of farming. They explain that farmers face many difficulties in succeeding in the market due to today’s political climate. They reflect on many issues such as the water rationing, changes to the global market, and competition. California laws ; Farming ; Future of farming ; Global market ; Market competition ; Political climate ; Politics ; Specialty crops ; Water rationing 0 Oral history Oral History of 2nd generation (George and Alethea Nagata) who represent four generations of Japanese Americans contributing to the agricultural industry of North County San Diego, California. During their interview the Nagatas discuss their family history, their forced internments at Poston Relocation Center in Yuma, Arizona during World War II, their lives post-internment, and their working lives as agricultural laborers and family farmers. The Nagatas discuss their operations in detail and muse on the future of farming in the United States. Lucy Wheeler: Today is November 16th, 2022, on behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative Project. We’re here at the Nagata Farm, in Oceanside bordering on Fallbrook and Bonsall. My name is Lucy Wheeler, and let’s go inside and meet them! (Lucy is initially on a balcony or deck, then moves inside to meet the Nagatas) Lucy Wheeler: Good morning. George and Alethea Nagata (both nod) Good morning. Wheeler: It’s so nice to be here, and I’d like to introduce you to our audience. Um, on our left we have Mr. George Nagata. George Nagata: Yep. (nodding) Wheeler: And Alethea Nagata, Nagata. (Mrs. Nagata nods) Um, they are second generation of four generations— George Nagata: (nodding) Yes, correct. Wheeler: —and we would love to hear your story, about how your families came to America, to the United States, and mostly just about how you’ve managed to live to your age. So let’s begin by where you were born, and what year, and then just briefly an introduction about how your ancestors came here. It’s your story, but predominantly setting the stage with your history. Do you want to go first, George? George Nagata: Alright. I was born in Gardena, California, in 1924, April 24th. Um, um, my father came over in about 1900, from, uh, a city of Kumamoto, Japan, which is in the south, southern Japan. And, uh, the family were, uh—they loaned money and, loan sharks I guess you’d call ‘em. And, um, they were pretty well off, and they would, uh, uh, have the rice as a collateral for the loaner to bring in. So, they would pile up a lot of rice and, and then they couldn’t pay, they took the rice. But they didn’t know what to do with it. So, after a while they decided to start a sake factory, and they progressed in it, and, and they were pretty well off. Uh, my father just went to school, and, and in fact he graduated from university and he was well educated for, um, people at that time. And so when he―he said that he used to get up in the morning and he had nothing to do so he would go out hunting for birds and he would bring it home, and, and eat those birds. But he got tired of it, and he wanted a, a more adventurous so he decided to come to United States and at first he landed in, uh, uh, Seattle, then came to San Francisco, and he went to night school there and he was a house boy for some old people. And, uh, uh, he didn’t—he learned his English, so he went into various business because if he needed money he would just send a letter to Japan. They would send him money to do whatever he wanted to do. So, he did some farming of cotton in Arizona, and then in Texas. But he wasn’t successful. He said he went to work for a railroad, and uh, and, uh, uh, in Arizona, and uh after a while he said he got tired of that. So, he, uh, come down to Los Angeles and he was just moaning around and doing a little farm work for people and I guess he did some joint venture with other people. But, he wasn’t successful so he decided at age, about, uh, forty-eight, he thought “Oh, I’m getting old. I’d better go find a bride!” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) So, he went to Japan and married my mother, and they came over in about 1920. And their first child was born in, in 1921, but only lived for nine months. She had diphtheria and she died. And so, next child was myself. In 1924, I was born, and my father bought a, a farm from some friend who was, uh, uh,―made enough money to go back to Japan. So, my father bought this farm, and they were working it, but they weren’t that successful. So, um, they decided to move from Gardena to Torrance and I was about four years old, and, and, and my mother would take the uncooked rice and they’d build a little pot, a fireplace, and then they, they asked me to watch them so that a fire won’t go out and I, I kept feeding the wood in there to keep the uh, rice cooked. By 12 o’clock the rice was ready, We would have a lunch. And then my mother would go back to work. And, uh, from Torrance, uh, we farmed there for about three years and my dad decided to go to Heinz, which is uh, uh, near Bellflower, California. And we were, uh, farming there and he planted uh, uh, strawberries and some melons and I was about six or seven years old. And dad would say that “I’m going to teach you how to drive a horse.” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) So he made a little sled, and, and he wanted me to pick the melon and put it in this box, and haul it back to the shed, so he could pack it. And I did that for a while. But, you know, being so young that I, I wanted to play! I did not want to work. (chuckles) Uh, he used to tell me “You gotta help me.” And, my brother Harry was born in 1925 (turns his head towards his wife) and that was in, um, Torrance, and— Wheeler: Let’s, uh— George Nagata: And uh, huh? (turns to look at his wife) Wheeler: Oh, I was just going to say, let’s let her tell her part up to that point. George Nagata: Okay. Wheeler: And then we’ll connect how you met each other. So, tell us about your— Alethea Nagata: I was born in Bonsall, California. Wheeler: Very close! Alethea Nagata: October 15th, 1926. And my parents had moved from, from Orange County to Bonsall, to change a little bit of their f—their, you know—to a new land, sort of. And so that’s where we, um, settled for a while. And then, uh, he moved to San Luis Rey where he started farming again. Wheeler: What were your parents’ name? Alethea Nagata: Wor Tasuke and Kane Yaskochi Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And (clears her throat) they were both married already in Japan in about 1919. And they, they came to America separately. My father came about 1920 with his father, and my mother came about a year—I believe, about a year or so later. And, uh, they settled in Orange County. Wheeler: And your father was here in—what year did you say? 1920? Alethea Nagata: About 1920. Wheeler: But his father— Alethea Nagata: Was here earlier. Wheeler: Earlier. Alethea Nagata: He arrived in the U.S. 1905, right after the San Francisco earthquake. And that’s where their journey sort of began. And he―um, my grandfather did various jobs along the way, and then―in 1905―and then he landed in Orange County, where there were, a few, I believe, a few Japanese already there. And so, he started the, the growing peppers. Wheeler: And became the Pepper King? Alethea Nagata: Well, (smiles) that’s what they called him. Wheeler: (laughs) Alethea Nagata: Anyway, that was sort of the beginning of the peppers. Wheeler: Very good. Well, how did you two meet? George Nagata: Well, uh, that was after, after the World War II. Well, uh— Wheeler: So, it’s a substantial difference then— George Nagata: yea, (nods) Wheeler: —in the time that you came and when you met. Alethea Nagata: Yes! Well this was after the war, so— Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: So, there— Wheeler: In the, in the interim, tell us where you went to school then, um. Were you in school in, um? George Nagata: Oh, I was a, a, in school in, in, Oceanside, before evacuation. The problem was that, uh, when we moved to Oceanside in 1940, my father got sick, yeah. We were building a house so we could move to Oceanside from Bellflower, California where he had farmed, and I was about fifteen years old. And he was building his house and then he said “I got a backache, and it’s really bad.” So, I took him to a doctor, and the doctor says “I can’t help you.” He said “You gotta go to a specialist.” And, uh, we were, uh, uh, broke because we just moved and we put all the money into building the house and, and preparing the land and so, uh, my dad went to the doctor and they found out he had pleurisy and so they put him in the hospital and uh, uh, he was in the hospital for three months! And, uh, we had to commute from Oceanside to the Los Angeles every day. So, my mother said “Let’s, uh, live with a friend in Los Angeles where it’s closer to see dad.” So, we, uh, my mother and I went to live with this friend of our family and we commuted to the hospital every night from there. From Downey to Los Angeles. And so, I was living in Downey, so I had to still go to school, so I registered at Downey High and went to school there a while. But, before we moved—when we moved to Oceanside, I started school in Oceanside and went about a month, or a month and a half to Oceanside. Then I transferred back to Downey and then once my dad got out of the hospital I went back to Oceanside and my dad couldn’t work. So, my mother did all the work. And, uh, I went back to Oceanside but my studies all messed up because of moving all the time, and, uh, so— Wheeler: Were you farming at the time? George Nagata: No, um, my mother was doing the farming. But we helped out as much as possible. We were absolutely broke! When my dad got sick, it cost us a lot of money to take care of him. So, we were—so, my mother had to go see friends to borrow money from them, because we couldn’t get any money. We didn’t have any property, anything to— We had an old automobile and an old truck, (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) so— Wheeler: What kind of farming did you do, what—? George Nagata: Uh, just had five acres of strawberries. Wheeler: Oh! That’s exciting. George Nagata: With strawberries, you plant the first year, and take the runner, and plant the runner, so you don’t harvest till second year! So, when we were farming there the first year, we planted a little bit of Italian squash, and we sold it to San Francisco, because the market was better there, and that’s how we were able to feed ourselves, and also, we went to work for other farmers. We did a bit of harvesting, but they, uh, wanted me to drive a horse with a cultivator— Wheeler: (laughs) George Nagata: —because my dad taught me how to do it, and they needed a person to drive the horse. So, I was assigned to do that every day! I had to harness the horse and get the cultivator, and cultivate the crop! Wheeler: And now, how, how old were you then when the second world war started? George Nagata: Well, I was sixteen. Wheeler: And tell us a little bit about—since you had not met each other at that time— George Nagata: No, no— Alethea Nagata: Not yet. George Nagata: No— Wheeler: Tell me how you— George Nagata: No, that was before the war. Now, uh, come May, I think about the 15th of May of 1942, we were evacuated. We were ordered to go to the Santa Fe Train Depot, and load, get on this train. And so, they said that you could only take two suitcases each. And so, we went and bought a suit—suitcase for each of us. And, and we packed up our suitcase. We went to the train depot and we boarded a train in the morning, and they had NPs on the train. They wouldn’t let us open the window or anything. It’s all shaded. And we didn’t know where we were going. And about three o’clock in the afternoon, uh, we went and the train stopped in Barstow, and they gave us a sandwich so that, you know, then we continued to Poston, Arizona. And when we got to Arizona, they put us on a bus and transported us to the concentration camp, and at first we had to stuff the mattress with straw because there was nothing there. They had to make―we got there at 8:30, 9 o’clock at night and we had to make our own bed. They gave us a cot and for each of us and so we went to sleep, and— Wheeler: How long were you there? (clears her throat) George Nagata: We were—Well, I was, I myself, was there only for a little over a year. And I, I was a, a—my friend said―he was going to Chicago―“Don’t you wanna go to Chicago?” I said “Yeah, I’ll call along, tag along with you, because I don’t know the country. I want to go.” So, I went to Chicago myself, with this friend and I, I learned how to be a auto mechanic, because I worked in the shop. There is a lot of people who were experienced mechanics and they taught me how to do all this repair. So, we had a full garage and all these people would teach me. So I was pretty confident that I could make a living. So, I went to Chicago and got a job as a mechanic. And, and I worked there for about four or five months, and, uh, my dad said that they gotta leave the camp, because they’re asking everybody to leave. So, my dad says “Meet me in Colorado. I’m going to see if we could do a little farming there.” So, um, I gave my job up and I went to Grand Junction, Colorado, and my father―the reason my father said that we could do some farming was because his nephew was from Hawaii and Santa Fe, New Mexico in a concentration camp, and his assets were frozen because he was an enemy Asian. But that money will be released if you want it for farming, and he said you’ll loan us the money, whatever you want. So, he said that he could come and live on the farm with us. So, my dad took him up on it, and we borrowed the money from him, and we started a little farm and I went to work for some man that owned a seed company. And he said “Why don’t you farm for me?” And he said “Go drive a tractor.” Well, I never drove a tractor, but anyway he says “You know how to drive?” I says “Yeah, I know how to drive.” So, I went there then he looked at me and he said “You don’t know how to drive.” Wheeler: (laughs) How long were you in Colorado? George Nagata: I was in Colorado ‘til 1944. From say ’43 to ’44, was it ’45 that I came to California? (turns to his wife) Alethea Nagata: (starts to laugh, as does Linda) I think so. I’m not sure what happened with you. George Nagata: We were farming and this man who owned this seed company was a crook. We never, I never got paid for working for him or then he said that if could grow some onion seed, that’s (unclear) to England, and he said “I’ll pay you for growing that thing.” And when it come to the end, we harvested it and gave him the seed, and I never seen a dime of it. Wheeler: Oh my! (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) George Nagata: And I asked the farmer that was next door who was also a evacuee that come out of a concentration camp to do a little farming. There was about five or six together and they were farming and, uh, they grew the onion seed for him. There was four or five other farmers. They said “Oh, that’s a good deal.” They all grew onion seed. And the company in England sent a check directly to those farmers. And the guy in the seed company, he really got mad and he said “They were supposed to pay me. And they said that if I sent it direct, that I was supposed to get a commission.” And my friend says “Okay, I’ll pay you commission, whatever you want.” He says “No, that won’t do.” He says “I want the check and that’s the only way I’ll accept it.” So everybody took the check and signed it and gave it to him, and they didn’t see a dime! (shrugs his shoulders incredulously and laughs) Wheeler: Oh. Wow! George Nagata: They said “We were stupid, because there’s no recourse because we signed (gestures with both hands to indicate signing a document) off the check.” (raises hands to indicate giving something up) So, uh, and this guy had a big farm in, uh, in Gilroy, California. And all my friend says is “Hey, forget it.” He says “You’re not going to get paid,” and sure enough― Wheeler: So, you left and came back to California, then? George Nagata: So, uh, after the war, we were allowed to come back to California, so I came to California to see how we could get back and where we could go. And, a friend of ours, uh, had a friend in Vista and he was a doctor and he―they own an avocado grove, and there was a house on it with a little shack there that was a chicken coop converted into a room. So, when we moved to California, he said “Stay in this chicken coop for a while.” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) So, what we did―we just―I loaded the truck up and a little pickup and we brought all of our stuff over. And we lived in the chicken coop and we were looking for land where we could farm a lease. We don’t have enough money to buy any property, so we, uh, uh, found, uh, uh, thirty acres of land that he wanted to sell. But, he said “I tell you what I’ll do. I’ll lease, lease it to you, uh, and, uh, you have to buy the property after one year.” So, we decided we’d better go ahead and get that land. So, we went there. There’s no house or anything. So, we put up a tent and lived in the tent and the houses were hard to get because right after the war there was nothing. There was a pre-hab house that was on sale. It’s not made out of, uh, wood. It’s, it’s, uh, the wood is hemlock, but it’s more of a composition material and we bought that and put it together and we lived in this house. And then, uh― Wheeler: This was in 1945? George Nagata: (nods) 1945. Wheeler: Okay. Let’s stop and, and have Alethea tell us about what― Alethea Nagata: Well, so this is, this is before the camp. Wheeler: Right. Alethea Nagata: And my father was―had a farm in Rancho Santa Margarita. He rented land. That was before it was turned into Camp Pendleton. And, (clears her throat) and he was raising strawberries there. And that’s when the, um, when the war broke out and the FBI picked him up there, um, in Rancho Santa Margarita. Well, he was living in San Luis Rey, but he was going back and forth to Santa Margarita. He rented the property from Rancho Santa Margarita, from a gentleman named Whitman. (clears throat) And, uh, uh, (clears throat) and then, um, he was―the FBI came to this ranch Santa Margarita and picked him up. And I was in San Marcos, living with my grandparents. And that’s where they picked up my grandfather, the same day. Wheeler: Was this Kiso? Alethea Nagata: Yes, Kiso. And they took my father and Kiso to the San Diego jail, and they stayed overnight there. And then (clears throat), and then they transferred them to a, I believe it’s a Tohanga, California, in Los Angeles. And so, we as a family were able to go and see them. And that’s where our journey, uh, begins with our family getting ready to go to camp. ‘Cuz I was going to Escondido High School, and then, uh, because the war had broken out, we, uh, we had to, uh, go to get ready to go to camp. And my uncle was trying to decide whether to move our whole family to Colorado because, uh, as long as you’re not on the west coast, you could, you could, uh, you know, farm, uh, in Colorado, or probably in the Midwest. But, my father, uh, said not to go, but to go to camp. So that’s what we did. We all got to, got ready to go to camp. Wheeler: And where was the― Alethea Nagata: And we ended up in Poston. Wheeler: Oh. Alethea Nagata: Um, my experience was not, uh, as, as harsh as his (points to Mr. Nagata), because, um, other family members had gone a little earlier and did the beds and things. So, um, I didn’t―I―my grandmother wasn’t in very good condition. So, we probably went a couple of days later. And so, uh, the cots and things, the ones that went first, you know, got theirs, or got it ready for us. So, we―we ended up in Camp One in Poston, Arizona and I believe you ended up in Poston (turning her head to look at Mr. Nagata), but in a different, uh― Wheeler: Different section? Alethea Nagata: Block. They were broken up into blocks. Wheeler: So, you had quite an experience before you’d even gotten married and established your― Alethea Nagata: Oh, yes! (laughing) Wheeler: ―careers in farming. Um, tell us about when you were allowed to come back. What changed your lives after that, besides getting married and meeting each other? Alethea Nagata: Well, my father and grandfather were sent to, uh, to Santa Fe, New Mexico and Lordsburg, New Mexico. They were in different facilities from us. They were, uh―my grandfather was released earlier than my father, was sent to the Poston camp where we were. And then my father was released, uh, I believe about 1944, and, um, and he came back to Poston. But, uh, in the meantime, we were living separately. Wheeler: Yes. Um, when you came back then, where did―when you came back, where did you―? You probably came back to Oceanside? George Nagata: (nods) We came back to Oceanside. Wheeler: And who― Alethea Nagata: My, my father and uh, uncle, and uh, my grandfather’s place was in San Marcos. Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And my father had a place in San Luis Rey. And so, uh, his―his farm―we left the farm in, um―my grandfather’s farm was left in charge of a vice principal of Escondido High School. And he, he took over and―and we hired a, a family man to come in and oversee the place. And, uh, they lived in my grandfather’s house. There was a main house and then there was a kitchen area. And so, the people who, uh, the vice principal hired was a―well their name was Tarbutton. (laughs) I remember the name. And um―uh, the kitchen area was a―was a fairly large, and so the family was able to live there. And the main house, uh, was left, just left. And, uh, so when we came back from camp, that’s where we fir―we landed in San Marcos where my grandfather’s place. And my father had returned from camp just, just a―(shakes her head and tries to speak) when he was able, they were allowed to come back. So, he came back by himself with, I believe, my uncle’s wife and, and they planted, um, zucchini, I believe, some kind of a early crop. So, then he, then he, then he came back to Poston and picked us up. So, then we all came back later, just a little bit later. 1945. Wheeler: Wow. So, you were just― Alethea Nagata: But we do have, we had a place to―at least we had a home. Wheeler: Yes. Alethea Nagata: Yeah. And, uh― Wheeler: Exactly. Alethea Nagata: Mr. Grave, the vice principal, uh, took care of everything for us. So that was very nice. Wheeler: So, when did you graduate from high school, then? Alethea Nagata: I graduated in camp. Wheeler: Oh, did you? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. George Nagata: Well, I didn’t get to go to school. Wheeler: Okay, that―and that was probably not uncommon. George Nagata: Yeah. Wheeler: So, then actually― Alethea Nagata: And it wasn’t accepted either, or― George Nagata: So, when I was in Chicago, I wanted to go to night school. And I applied there, and they said that, that concentration camp I was in was not an acclaimed school, so you’re going to have to start over again. So, I says “Oh, I can’t start over again.” (both he and Wheeler laugh) So, uh, I didn’t get any education at all. Wheeler: No, but sometimes it’s not just all education in the school. So, what happened then after ’45 that you came back and started again? George Nagata: Uh, it was very tough (shaking his head). We didn’t have any equipment, and so, so (cell phone starts to ring). Excuse me. (reaches into pocket for cell phone) I don’t know who is calling. (looks at screen, and shakes his head) Scam! (Wheeler and Alethea Nagata laugh) George Nagata: So, when we got back to California, um, I went to the bank to borrow money and they laughed at me and said “You know, to tell you the truth, I’m not loaning you my money. He says “The bank has a depositor. They all deposit the money, and I’m responsible for it. So, I gotta have a collateral, whatever you own. But, I don’t own a thing, ‘cuz I can’t loan you any money.” So, in order for us to farm, we had to have a little bit of backing and so, uh, the L.A. produce market was loaning money to the growers, to advance the money, and they get all the produce. So, we borrowed the money from them, and started growing and sometimes it pays, and sometimes it doesn’t, because the market was, you know, some oversupply of tomatoes and things. And I would go over there and I would borrow money from, uh, for uh, buy fertilizer on credit. And they would just loan me the money, and one company there, I owed about three thousand dollars, and they wanted to get paid. I said “I don’t have any money right now. So, can you wait?” But what happened was that I planted, uh, twenty acres of strawberries and it was ready to harvest when I got hailed out. Because all the hail was just deforming the whole plant. And never produced a single berry! And so, I had all this money tied up into strawberries. And I can’t harvest anything. And the supply companies, this was, uh, uh, the fertilizer and insecticide I bought, I couldn’t pay for it. So, they wanted to sue me. And they reported it to the Credit Bureau that I haven’t paid for one year and they’re going to, uh, to file a lawsuit against me. And so, uh, when they had filed, I went back to the produce house, and I begged them to loan me some more money. I gotta pay that guy, or he’s going to sue me. And so, uh, I was able to borrow enough money to pay the, that fertilizer company off. And there was more, other companies, the seed companies. And I owed them money. They said they would hold off. And so next year I figured well, what I’m going to do is double the acreage of strawberries, and try to get the money back. And I planted forty acres of strawberries and we started harvesting in April and there was a beautiful crop! My God! Everybody was envious. I was harvesting 4,000 boxes a day. And all of a sudden it started to rain. (Wheeler and Alethea Nagata chuckle) And for two weeks straight! And it just destroyed the whole berries. And so, uh, his uncle (he points to his wife) was familiar with some freezer company in Fallbrook there and they talked him into starting a strawberry freezer! And, uh, he come to me and said “Hey, why don’t you invest in this. All the growers will put up money, and we’ll go ahead and process the strawberries.” And we were, before that we were sending our frozen berries to Smucker’s. Well, they paid pretty good. Well, I said “Fred, I think we shouldn’t go into this business. It’s a risky business.” He says “No, it’s a sure thing.” But, his company went bankrupt so he got a job in Oxnard or― Alethea Nagata: Ventura. George Nagata: Ventura, for his chili company. And he let us go and left his freezer go. But we were members of the Freezers so we had to ship it to him. So, I―the second crop, the rain had stopped, so we sent all of our berries to this freezer, and, and, uh, to buy the can and buy the sugar, well, somebody has to guarantee the payment on it. See? And so, about four or five of us volunteered to go ahead and sign the agreement that we’re responsible. Well, at the end of the season, they can’t pay for the cans, they can’t pay for the sugar. And so, they froze my bank account! Because I was one of the guaranteers. And hell, I couldn’t―I had workers, and I couldn’t―and my brother said “Hey, they froze the account. We can’t pay the, the help. We’ve got to pay the help.” So, “Oh, my god.” We went back to the produce house and borrowed some more money, and, and we were able to pay American Can and sugar. All of us growers put up the money to pay this off. And then the company went bankrupt. The strawberry in a frozen can, we―W.H. Ruth Company is a marketing (unclear), and they put it in a cold storage. And they couldn’t sell it, so they had it in cold storage so long that the storage fee ate up all of it. (chuckles) Wheeler: Right. George Nagata: And so, you know, we were out of― Wheeler: And there’s the― George Nagata: We took a beating. Oh my God. Wheeler: It was quite an adjustment after the war, getting established. We’ve kind of skipped over your coming back. You came back to San Marcos. And tell us a little bit more about how your family was farming and had you married at this point? Alethea Nagata: No. Wheeler: You hadn’t met each other. Alethea Nagata: No. Not yet. Wheeler: Okay. So, you were living in San Marcos. You were living in Oceanside? George Nagata: San Luis Rey, at that time. Wheeler: San Luis Rey. Alethea Nagata: But, he, he, uh, I’m getting confused now a little bit. But, um, there was so much that went on. We came back and, um, my grandfathers settled in San Marcos, and we―and our family were in San Luis Rey. So, um, my―I guess, my father―well, all I remember was coming back from camp and my father made me drive the Caterpillar and he was―because we didn’t have any help. And so, he―he got on the back and―and he wanted me to drive the Caterpillar. Well, I had never driven it before. But I―that stands out in my mind as an incident that I do remember, that when we first came back, that’s what he made me do! (laughs, as does Wheeler) Wheeler: And you had just graduated from high school at that point. Alethea Nagata: I had already finished in camp. Wheeler: So that was pretty, uh, different for women at any― Alethea Nagata: Well, my sisters― Wheeler: ―any (unclear) Alethea Nagata: There were three of us girls. The first three. And my sister drove trucks and, I mean, she did all kinds of things. Both of my sisters. And so, it wasn’t so outrageous. And my dad was extremely kind to women. Wheeler: Mmm. Alethea Nagata: For someone from Japan, he took care of the women. So, I do to this day remember that for being a Japanese man, that he―he respected women. So, that’s always been very nice. But, um, uh, the farm, well, he―we grew―he grew asparagus. And he still did grow chili peppers at that time. Wheeler: At that time, had they done the diversity that they do now? Or was that just beginning? Alethea Nagata: Then―then―then, the diversity began, um, when my younger brother kind of started taking over. Oh, my father was still involved with it. They grew romaine, and tomatoes, and things like that. So― Wheeler: As we look at the farmers now― Alethea Nagata: Strawberries, also. Wheeler: ―and the some fields will be waiting, like, some year we’ll plant, but others have those plants about 6 inches high. Others they’ll be almost grown. You can see how the changes. How did that all come about, just by trial and error? Or by deliberate planning? Alethea Nagata: Well, there’s, um―my father and my brother grew cauliflower, um, and that is not a money-making crop. But, they, they grew asp―the cauliflower because it kept the workers so that you had to maintain the workers, you know. That was a part of the problem, also, is to have enough help. Wheeler: Mm-hmm. Alethea Nagata: And so the reason for even planting it was, um, to keep the help, you know. That was quite a, um, problem in keeping―(turns her head toward Mr. Nagata) you know about keeping the workers. So― George Nagata: Getting back to her uncle, Fred. He took a liking to me and he wanted me to go around with him into like the Farm Bureau, and this labor, uh, the Bracero program, where we had association. And I spoke with one of the Board of Directors, and he took me all the places and introduced me to all the things that, and he was a, a, a U.C. Davis graduate. So, we would go into U.C. Davis and, and try to get, uh, the university to experiment, develop a new variety of berries for, suitable for southern California. And they said that uh there was no budget for it. So, we went to the Legislature and had one of our representatives, um, pass a budget so they could experiment. So, they, the university assigned a man and sent him down here where and we were trying new strawberries, grapes, and after a while it was successful that it helped us all survive the strawberry industry in, in southern California, from Oxnard to San Diego. We got a new variety and kept improving and improving our, our strawberries. And everybody was able to stay in business. Uncle Fred was one of the instigators in that. And he says one day to me “Hey, I got a blind date set up for you.” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) We’re going to the Palladium.” (Alethea laughs) So, I wondered who it was? And it was her! (all three of them laugh) And so that’s how we got together. Alethea Nagata: Well, my uncle Fred was a, um, he was drafted into the Army when we were in camp. He was, yeah― Wheeler: He didn’t (unclear) Alethea Nagata: He was in the artillery, yeah. And he had, he saw action in Europe, and― (clears her throat) Wheeler: Hhmmm. This was quite a― Alethea Nagata: Yes. Wheeler: ―with your fam―some of your family back in Japan. Some of you in camp. And then he’s fighting in the― Alethea Nagata: The people in Japan were, were, couple of children that were left in Japan were from my grandfather. And, and, um, (clears throat) they were kind of farmed out. Because of the law, they were not able to come. He was not able to bring them later because one child was just born when my grandmother came to this country. She couldn’t handle a two-year-old boy and you know, on the, on the ship. So, they left two daughters in Japan, my grandfather did. And he had to, to farm them out and among relatives and, and the, the baby he had to farm out to a, a woman who would kind of take over childcare. And so, these poor women that were left in Japan, was pretty terrible, because of the law. And they were not able to come to the U.S. (clears throat). So that’s a little background but― Wheeler: Yes. Those are things that are barriers and we have to really think about― Alethea Nagata: Well, see, yeah. Because it was the Asians that were, were in that kind of predicament, whereas it did not affect the Europeans. Wheeler: Yes. So, after, um, about, say up until 1960, did things start to turn around then, for the growth and the diversity? When did that really take hold? George Nagata: Uh, it took hold about ten years after they granted a experiment in southern California. First it was, uh, U.S.D.A. property and it’s on the beach, where it was a little too small to do an experiment so the, uh, university had a property there in, uh, in, uh, Orange County that, uh, belonged to the university so they moved the experimental plot to, uh, Irvine Ranch. And Irvine Ranch gave them, I think, about twenty or thirty acres to the university and they started experimenting there. And they developed various varieties and that’s when we were able to adapt a new variety of strawberries here, and it was very successful. Wheeler: That is very interesting because we’re known for good strawberries that we have. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: Right now, do you grow a lot, different kinds of crops? George Nagata: Well, after we retired, in about 1980, we, uh, figured to stop growing, uh, any kind of crop because it is a gamble and we didn’t want to, because they’re growing a lot of tomatoes in Mexico and strawberries in Mexico. And it’s hard to compete with produce from foreign countries. And they flooded the market, and they just grow thousands and thousands of acres of tomatoes and strawberries, that you can’t compete with them. And so, we decided we’re going to quit the farming business. We’ll quit. And I asked Neal and one of my nephews to, if they were interested, and they said they would take it over. So, I, we gave it to them. And we were operating okay, but the nephew got into gambling and he, uh, the company money― Wheeler: But the, um, back to the, the way that agriculture has changed, and how you survived from one kind of crops to another. What kind of things have you done that have been innovative in making that happen? Like were you, you were probably growing some asparagus or some other things besides the cauliflower. George Nagata: Well, we started to grow the crops, like blueberries. Wheeler: Okay. George Nagata: We put in about― Alethea Nagata: Cherimoya. George Nagata: ten acres of blueberries, and also the cherimoya, which is a fruit. I don’t know if you know what cherimoya is. It’s, um, (turns to his wife) what happened to the one I gave you? Alethea Nagata: I’ll, I’ll show it to her. Wheeler: There’s a lot of people that come here from all over the world, and they’d probably like to know that. George Nagata: And so, it hasn’t been very successful and the cherimoya takes a lot of labor, because you have to hand-pollinate those. But, uh, (looks to the left, off camera, and Mrs. Nagata reaches to the left to grab a cherimoya) Wheeler: Could you show that so―there we go. (Alethea places the cherimoya on the table in front of Wheeler) Tell us about this little piece of fruit. George Nagata: This is a small one! They get about this big! (gestures a wider diameter than the actual fruit) Wheeler: Oh really! George Nagata: Mm-hmm. (Alethea pushes the fruit across the table to Wheeler, and then pulls it back to center it on the table between them) Wheeler: Okay, there we go. You see that now? Um, well, there’s a lot of us that don’t know what that is, or how do you use it? And how do you grow it? George Nagata: It ripens and there’s a lot of seeds inside. You have to sort the seed out. Alethea Nagata: And people who love it, love it. They just― Wheeler: Is it a fruit? Alethea Nagata: It’s a fruit. George Nagata: I don’t― Wheeler: So― George Nagata: I don’t care for it (laughs) Alethea Nagata: It’s sort of like a slightly banana flavor, but the people who grow up with it― Wheeler: Is it easy to grow in this climate, in this soil? George Nagata: It’s easy to grow, but hard to set. It doesn’t form a fruit. You have to hand-pollinate them. Wheeler: Oh! Very interesting! George Nagata: The flower is like a trumpet (holds his hand up to indicate an open trumpet-shaped flower) so it can’t get the pollen inside, see. Wheeler: What do you eat it with? George Nagata: Yeah. Alethea Nagata: Well, um― Wheeler: Just by itself? Alethea Nagata: By itself, yeah. Wheeler: Like an apple? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. Wheeler: Very interesting. Alethea Nagata: Well, you have to remove the seeds, you know. But, yeah. Wheeler: So, this is very interesting in that we contribute so much to the agricultural industry in San Diego. It’s the fourth largest industry. So, you’ve contributed to this in so many ways. I’m fascinated by how you’ve had your ups and downs, the fact that there were times when the Japanese could not buy land here. There were times when they could, and how all these things change, and the incarceration was atrocious. But, you’ve survived it, and what do you see as the future of farming here? Is that a, too big a question? Alethea Nagata: It is a big, large question, because of the laws. How California is. George Nagata: They don’t want us to farm. Most of the politicians, they want to get rid of the farms. And that’s why they cut off the water for a lot of― Wheeler: That’s another thing that you’ve had to deal with, is the water situation. George Nagata: That’s right. Wheeler: And how is it so scarce now, and there’s, um, almost rationing. Well we’re restricted in how many times we can water our yards. So, so all of these things that impacted your livelihood, and we all want our children and our grandchildren to live happily ever after but that’s, it changes whether we like it or not. George Nagata: It changes. Alethea Nagata: I believe California was supplying United States with a lot of the, the vegetables and fruits, I believe. But I don’t know. California is really interesting. Wheeler: Yes, it is. The citrus fruits have been shipped all over the world. And yet, at the same time you’re talking about the strawberries and how that has been impacted, too. But, what other things have you, in your interesting lifespan, what other things have you―would you like to share with our community, our, with our future, what, what would you, what is your secret as they famously say? George Nagata: Well, I don’t think there’s very much future in the farming business because the foreign countries like Chile, and all those South American countries are growing and shipping all the stuff here, and Mexico. That’s a wide-open country there. And I farmed there for a couple of years and an associate with a Mexican partner. I grew, planted 500 acres of strawberries, down there. (Mrs. Nagata laughs) And, I told my partner that his job was to get the pickers, and, and make the cooler big enough so where we could handle 500 acres of strawberries. You have to pre-cool those strawberries or they won’t ship. And when you cool them down to 34 degrees, just before freezing, there is, the food gets firm, and you could ship it to the United States without damaging the fruit. Well, when it grows 500 acres, the facilities won’t handle but pay one-tenth of what they, uh, What I told him that. Well, he says “my brothers all have coolers.” I said “They’re not prepared for that. You gotta prepare for that. It’s got to be a cool, cool, 34 degrees. It has to have kind of a vacuum cooled deal, and you gotta set it up.” And he said “Don’t worry. I’ll get them to do it.” He doesn’t do it. So, we lost 500 acres of berries! Wheeler: There’s, yes. Those kinds of things are, um, it’s part of the change and how we have to look at things more global. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: And sometimes we get really busy and forget that. But is there any other, um, things that you think that we could be doing to enhance the way that food is prepared or grown? George Nagata: Well, the only thing you could probably grow is specialty crops. Like tomatoes, they grow by the thousand acres. The farmer down there grows five thousand acres of tomatoes. And you can’t compete with people like that. Wheeler: No. So, what’s changing? George Nagata: So, uh, you gotta change the kind. But there’s very little crop that you could put in that, that you could sell to the mass market. Um, and, I don’t know what we can grow. We’ve been studying it for about ten years to see what is profitable. But, at first the blueberry was a very profitable business, but now everybody grows it, and they grow in Mexico, and they are earlier than we are, and they flood the market. And they also come from Chile, and they just flood the market. And that’s why they sell those blueberries so cheap. Wheeler: Right. The fact that we have labor and we have water sources that we are constantly looking at as to how, what we need and what we have to― George Nagata: Well, the trouble is, the workers don’t want to work on the farms, and they― Wheeler: The lack of interest in farming. Alethea Nagata: There’s the, there’s the politics. Some of it’s about the politics. Wheeler: Yes, unfortunately that’s everywhere. George Nagata: All these people they’re coming into the United States. None of them are working on the farms. They want other kinds of jobs. Wheeler: Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Well, there’s a lot of things that we’re trying to work out and I so appreciate your input and to, well, thank you more for the contributions you’ve made. It’s been phenomenal to hear your stories. Is there anything else you have to add, beca―? George Nagata: Right now, I can’t think. (they all laugh) Wheeler: Well, I cannot thank you enough. It’s been absolutely delightful. Thank you again. GLOSSARY: American Can (pg.10) Bracero program (pg.12) Camp Pendleton (pg.7) Caterpillar (pg.11) Cherimoya (pg.13-14) Credit Bureau (pg.9) Farm Bureau (pg.12) Freezers (pg.10) Grave, Mr. (pg.8) Heinz (pg.2) Irvine Ranch (pg.13) Kiso (pg.7) Kumamoto, Japan (pg.1) Poston, Arizona (pg.5,7-8) Rancho Santa Margarita (pg.7) Santa Fe Train Depot (pg.5) Smucker’s (pg.10) Tarbutton (pg.8) Tasuke, Wor (pg.2) Tohanga, California (pg.7) Yaskochi, Kane (pg.2) W. H. Ruth Company (pg.10) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.xml NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nagata, George and Alethea. Interview November 16, 2022 Description An account of the resource Oral History of 2nd generation (George and Alethea Nagata) who represent four generations of Japanese Americans contributing to the agricultural industry of North County San Diego, California. During their interview the Nagatas discuss their family history, their forced internments at Poston Relocation Center in Yuma, Arizona during World War II, their lives post-internment, and their working lives as agricultural laborers and family farmers. The Nagatas discuss their operations in detail and muse on the future of farming in the United States. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-33 Subject The topic of the resource Agricultural laborers -- California Agricultural laborers -- Colorado Family farms -- California Japanese Americans Japanese Americans -- Forced removal and internment, 1942-1945 Poston Relocation Center (Ariz.) World War, 1939-1945 -- Concentration camps -- Arizona -- Yuma Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alethea Nagata George Nagata Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado Southern California Yuma (Ariz.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alethea and George Nagata Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floyd Lai OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Lai, Floyd. Interview, April 19, 2021 SC027-03 1:16:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Floyd Lai Ayana Ford mp4 LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.mp4 1.0:|16(14)|26(9)|40(9)|51(8)|64(5)|76(9)|89(3)|101(10)|112(18)|125(4)|136(11)|153(5)|166(17)|177(4)|191(16)|202(15)|213(12)|224(14)|238(5)|257(3)|267(9)|278(14)|289(13)|301(6)|313(14)|324(17)|341(11)|355(13)|366(4)|380(7)|394(12)|407(4)|419(7)|431(8)|443(11)|456(15)|468(15)|480(4)|502(4)|517(13)|529(8)|543(4)|555(12)|568(7)|582(11)|592(5)|604(3)|616(10)|630(4)|644(15)|657(9)|668(10)|681(13)|695(8)|709(9)|722(14)|735(7)|748(12)|766(4)|784(5)|796(13)|808(12)|823(5)|836(7)|850(12)|863(17)|875(6)|889(8)|900(11)|914(7)|927(6)|940(13)|953(9)|966(7)|978(15)|994(3)|1019(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4ef778dfa6ec0355e8c50df20e5a2bc3.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Interview of Floyd Lai by Ayana Ford, April 19, 2021. Interview was conducted over Zoom and has a few moments towards the end with technical issues. 0 35 Childhood Lai recounts his childhood as a Chinese American son of immigrants in Hawaii, Idaho, and California, and his introduction to concepts of race and ethnicity. 0 306 Learning about the Black community 0 423 Lai's college and professional experience with issues of race/ethnicity 0 775 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements 0 1188 History of Cross Cultural Center and early campus spaces 0 1440 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation 0 1782 University Administration's vision for the Black Student Center 0 2105 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center 0 2395 Opening of the Black Student Center 0 2690 Early focus of the Black Student Center 0 2969 Collaborations between Black Student Center and Cross Cultural Center 0 3522 Reorganization: Black Student Center move from Student Success to Student Life 0 3704 Issues in the early days of the Black Student Center 0 3876 Purpose of the Black Student Center 0 4196 Impact of Black Student Center on Lai 0 4331 Future expectations of the Black Student Center 0 4534 Lai's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project 0 oral history Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. Lai also discusses his life and childhood. Ayana Ford: So, today is Monday, April 19th, 2021, at one-oh-two p.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at San Marcos and today I’m interviewing Floyd Lai for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Mr. Lai, thank you for being here with me today. Floyd Lai: Pleasure. Thank you, Ayana. Ford: I’d like to start by talking about your childhood a little bit. When and where were you born? Lai: I was born on the island of Oahu in Kahuku in Hawaii, and that was in 1974. Ford: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Lai: Sure. My parents are immigrants, originally from Taiwan. I am the oldest of three sons, three boys. We moved around. My parents initially settled in Hawaii, and then we moved to Idaho, and then eventually to southern California by the time I was six. I have lived in California since about 1980, so pretty much consider myself a native in the sense of being in southern California for the majority of my lifetime. And I would say it was a pretty ordinary, I guess, childhood in the sense that, again, being the oldest of three boys, there were obviously some cultural components in the roles and responsibilities of what that entailed, being the eldest. I also had responsibility over my two younger brothers as well, just with regard to how we were growing up, and it was pretty common as far as an immigrant experience, keeping in mind both of my parents worked. And I think, at an early age, I—there’s a term that was called, not necessarily pejorative but it was a latch key kid. So, I had a key around my neck so that when I would walk home from school, I’d be able to get inside the house, and pretty much had responsibility for my brothers from an early age as well. Ford: I know that. I’m the youngest, so— (both laugh) So, how did that help you come to an understanding of your culture at all? How did your childhood help you come to understand your culture? Lai: Yeah. You know, I would say it was a part of my upbringing in the sense that it guided and dictated—and it was just par for the course, meaning that outside of any influence or education about some of the histories that we learn about at school, it was just part of my upbringing, right? So, being from a Chinese immigrant family, eating Chinese food, right? (chuckles) Everything was just taken as something that was innate and part of the way in which I was raised. I would say that the first instance that I recognized or noticed that perhaps I was different from others was probably not until my middle school years, in the sense that I think first through sixth in elementary school, the community in which I grew up—I grew up in Rowland Heights, California, which is in Los Angeles County. At the time, it was relatively pretty diverse, but I think the friends that I had were of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different races. And as time progressed and if you were to go back to that community now, there has been a huge influx of immigration, particularly from China and Taiwan because of institutions, like there’s a large Buddhist temple in the adjoining city in Hacienda Heights, and we’ve seen some of the demographic shifts and changes. So, growing up in middle school was probably where I started noticing and gravitating towards individuals who were much like myself, who were also of Asian background or identity or descent. I was on the seventh grade, eighth grade basketball team. And so, I would say that probably was my first introduction to other races, like Black individuals or Mexicans or Latinos at the time. But I didn’t necessarily have a good understanding of the differences when it came to race and ethnicity until very much later, probably not until I graduated from high school and got into college and started taking classes and/or having discussions about that. Ford: So, to follow up on that, during your childhood and adolescence, were you taught about Black history and the Black community? Lai: You know, the extent of that probably was Martin Luther King, Jr., right? ; Black History month, limited to just the month of February. My earliest recollection—I think I may have done research on George Washington Carver, right? Learning about, I think it was peanut butter or a lot of, I think, the stories and notions of Black history that was primarily in our history books, right? And it was all the positive portrayals, right, or images of things and people, right? Obviously, since then and more recently with different projects like, I’m blanking. Is it the 1692 Project or things that are in the media now that talk about slavery and other things, right? My recollection of that when I was in elementary, middle, or even high school was maybe a short chapter, if that, on slavery and the Civil War, but never necessarily through a Black lens or a portrayal beyond just the significant notables like Martin Luther King, Jr., maybe some musicians, Louis Armstrong, things that we would hear about or note, but there was never an extended conversation about that. I played basketball, as I mentioned, in seventh and eighth grades. So, I knew Black students or teammates of mine. We didn’t necessarily hang out. We just played our basketball games and whatnot. But that was really the extent of it. So, we played basketball on the same team, but then beyond that, our circles didn’t necessarily overlap, one with another. Ford: So, after you came to San Marcos, how did that change? Prior to your coming here to San Marcos. Lai: Yeah. Coming to San Marcos as a staff member, I’ve had more—I’ve been out here at Cal State San Marcos for the last ten years. Prior to that, I worked at UC Irvine for about six years. And then, even before that, I graduated in 2000 from undergraduate, UC Irvine as well. That’s where I did my undergraduate program in environmental engineering. So, I was on a track or trajectory to go into engineering, in the engineering field. My first notion, I think in a broader sense, was in my undergraduate experience at UC Irvine. Well, so from a personal experience as an Asian American, Chinese American man, I have shared this story with others when I do workshops and presentations. But my first introduction to a personal impact was—I forget the year. I want to say 1995 or ‘96, per se. I was the recipient, on the receiving end at the time, of a hate incident through email. So, myself and others, back in the day—this is when the internet was still (laughs) kind of coming out—you had to go to a lab to jump on and connect. And there were localized areas and whatnot. But I received an email essentially saying, “I’m going to kill all you eff’in Asians. You ruin the curve,” things like that, that really started me on a trajectory and path to really be more reflective about my own personal identity as a Chinese, Asian American man. You know, “I just got this. What is this? Not sure,” you know. Come to find out later on, it was a student who obviously felt the need or desire to broadcast this message, this hateful message, to whomever was in the lab at the time. And the way he identified folks was if they had an Asian sort of sounding last name. And those that were there, myself included, were the lucky recipients of that. So, that started me on a trajectory, just kind of where I am today. I mean I think that would be a critical, pivotal point in the work that I do within multicultural affairs, and doing the work that I do in the Cross-Cultural Center. It was a personal moment where I started thinking why was I the recipient? What caused this, right? To think about issues in terms of race. And it’s through that soul searching and connections to the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine that I got involved. Then I said I wanted to explore that a little bit more. I was involved in various clubs. I was part of the Hawaii club. I’m not myself native Hawaiian, but it was something. I was born there, and it was something that I gravitated towards. And it was through those interactions that I started getting involved and going to programming with the Cross-Cultural Center at that space and Center, which I eventually got to work at prior to coming here to Cal State San Marcos, when I worked there for about six years. I got introduced to the Black Student Union, right? MEChA which is a student organization that often helps to—We call them umbrella organizations. They are the political, social wing of the experiences at UC Irvine at the time: Asian Pacific Student Association ; again, these larger groupings. And so, I worked at the Center as a volunteer initially, then as an intern, and then I was involved in a program called REACH. They’ve changed their name since, but it was called Reaffirming Ethnic Awareness, Community, Harmony. So, I learned about workshops. I got really deeply involved in understanding, for example, the different experiences within the various communities, whether it was the Asian community, the Black community, the LatinX community—LatinX wasn’t a term at the time, right—so, the Latino community, and the different sort of experiences. I would say also during that time at UC Irvine was the first time I took an Asian—So, I was an engineer. So, that was my trajectory and pathway. It’s very fixed. You can’t deviate too much, right? Ford: Yeah. Lai: You know, you’ve got your sciences classes. You’ve got your engineering classes. But, on occasion, I had the ability to take some of electives. And so, one of the electives I chose was an Asian American Studies class which was helpful for me, as well, as I was just trying to get into and understanding of some of those issues and areas. So, between my experience at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, some of the classes I was able to take, the interactions that I had, obviously hanging out at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, I got to meet the leaders of the Black Student Union from the American Indian Student Association. These were folks that I was able to run in circles or I would see on a regular basis. They had retreats and other opportunities for student leadership exposure. And so, that’s where I was able to expand and grow my experience. And at the time I wasn’t sure if I was going into the field of higher education that I am in now. It was just something that was supplementary to understanding some of those things at that time in my own personal development, of my own identity, and in relation to other people. Ford: So, as you mentioned before, you had talked a little bit about how the different movements were. How has Black social justice and activism such as Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, and Black Lives Matter Movement affected you? Lai: Yeah. I would say that’s a more recent, and I would say it’s an ongoing, evolutionary progression for me, right? Let me start more recently and maybe work backward. I would say this past summer, last summer, with George Floyd—And, again, he was not the first and nor was he the last, as we’ve seen more recently with the continued impacts of anti-Black racism occurring. I would say, however though, that that coupled with the pandemic and other things, right, I think galvanized. And we saw our country and nation as a whole get to a turning point, right? And so, that’s something that I would say is the strong notion of anti-racism, of anti-Black racism particularly, and how it’s situated within the context of my understanding of racism and discrimination broadly, was really galvanized there. The Black Lives Matter Movement I know occurred a couple of years earlier, right, with Ferguson and some of those things. So, there has been a steady, I think, beat in my own personal understanding in history of the Black experience and where I fit and situate, right? I often felt as if I was a bystander to some degree, someone who’s looking outside looking in and trying to understand but, obviously, not recognizing those experiences personally. And there’s a certain level of privilege in that too, right? So, because I’m not Black and I don’t have to go through some of those things, I have the luxury of not having to worry about those things, right? So, yes, it’s horrible. Yes, it’s awful. And I felt a lot of empathy for situations and crises like this. And why does this continue to occur? But I would say that, going back to George Floyd, that was a pivotal point in my own personal experience in recognizing—one, because I mean my first name is Floyd, so it was weird hearing so-and-so was on the neck of Floyd. And so, there was this kind of weird connection as well, because his last name just happens to be my first name. And so, there was almost this personal connection now because I would see Floyd in narratives and things like that about the experiences with police. And so, it was very personalizing in that way. So, I think that, and then going back to Black Lives Matter, I would say my background and trajectory and pathway, especially in this field of social justice work, I was never—compared to probably some of my colleagues—I was never a super activist, right? I wasn’t out there chanting or demonstrating. There were a few times I was part of marches or walks, but nothing that felt very heavily involved. Part of the reason why is because I think, also personally, my purpose was I’m going to get an engineering degree. This is all nice but that’s not my focus. And then, as I came to my own sort of personal consciousness and awakening myself, I started to see how education could be an opportunity to better understand. And I felt like I could have an impact on things as well, right? Personally, and professionally, in a lot of ways. So, going back to your initial question, I think those experiences have continued to evolve for me. I think there are better nuances in the sense—or better is not the right word. I have more nuance in understanding that experience and how I fit into that, right? This last summer, there is more of a commitment. Now, anytime we make a commitment or a desire to change, we always have to check ourselves to see if we’re still in that same frame of mind. But I have a stronger commitment to trying to dismantle anti-Blackness and try to dismantle racist notions. And even more so now, going back to my identity as an Asian American, in what ways does my own culture and my own upbringing, does my own lens, as an Asian American, help to contribute to some of that, right? I was having a conversation with some colleagues of mine and thinking back, when I was younger, going back to that kind of thing, there was this rule about who I was able to date. Right? Who would be acceptable to date? So, obviously, my parents are Chinese. So, if you can find someone, and I identify as heterosexual, so if you find a nice Chinese girl, right, that’s at the top of the list, if you can find someone that you want to date. And at the bottom of the list, right, was someone who was more dark-complected or Black, right? That was not in my wheelhouse or realm. And so, a lot of that sentiment that seemingly is innocuous—I mean, my parents are immigrants and so this notion, right, coming from Taiwan where there’s not a lot of people of color, right? They’re mostly Chinese or indigenous individuals but there were still notions of colorism, right? The darker the skin, don’t be out in the sun too much because not only is it bad for you but also you don’t want to be too dark-complected. So, a lot of those things that I took, I viewed different then, I look at now in the lens of how that can contribute to notions of anti-Blackness, right, and what that role looks like. And then, I’m a father of two young girls. And so, what is now my role as someone who can influence, particularly those in my own family, what those thoughts and ideas look like? How do I have and hold conversations with my children and social media, everything. Compared to when I was younger, you had to read the newspaper, watch television. There were only three news channels, right? Cable was satellite media, as I was getting a little bit older. So, there were only so many sources of news. Now, there are so many places where you can get information. And so, how do I structure those conversations or perhaps take opportunities to have conversations with them about these diverse issues, racially, or around sexual orientation, around gender, right? And I’ve been surprised. I mean, a lot of them have been reading books that have exposed them to a lot of concepts that I probably wouldn’t have been reading prior, because the authors weren’t writing about those topics, right, about gender fluidity or any of those things. They’re much more comfortable in using that language than I was at their age, at that time. I don’t know if I answered your question? It’s kind of long-winded. But those are just, I mean, just some initial thoughts about some of those movements and around social justice in general. Ford: Mm-hmm. You answered the question perfectly. Thank you. (chuckles) Lai: Okay. Ford: So, what role did you play in the creation of the Black Student Center? Lai: Yeah. Other than perhaps a cheerleading role on the sidelines—So, I’ll give you a little bit of history, just also for the purposes of this recording. You know, the Cross-Cultural Center is—not was, but is the first established now what’s called the Student Life Center. So, we were established in 2003. So, at the time, with no other Centers or spaces, we kind of had to do everything. And again, this wasn’t me. It was my predecessors, right? And so, once the Cross-Cultural Center—I think soon thereafter it was the Women’s Center, now currently called the Gender Equity Center, Pride Center. And then there was a huge gap, and probably within the last 5-7 years, the LatinX Center, and then most recently, the Black Student Center. So, my role has been as sort of a cheerleader of it. We had a student who worked as student staff. Her name is Chanel Bradley. She’s an alum of Cal State San Marcos. She revived the Black Student Union, BSU, during her time here. And she worked with Robert Aiello-Hauser who is the director of the LGBTQA Pride Center in a lot of those things. At the time, there were just the three: the Women’s Center, the Cross-Cultural Center, and the LGBTQA Pride Center. So, when I came in 2011, we overlapped. Chanel was I think in her second to last or last year, right? So, she was involved in developing. And since there wasn’t a Black Student Center at the time, I was sort of the support mechanism, right, along with some of the other Centers in providing support for the Black students. So, we played roles in supporting them programmatically, trying to work with them. If you were to come in person to the Cross-Cultural Center, I helped to develop things like, at the time when it was called Black History month, now it’s called Black Excellence month, but Black History month. And in my early couple of years being on campus, I was focused on how do we create space to celebrate or to discuss and talk about these issues. (starts to adjust his chair. Both laugh.) I’m sorry. My chair keeps sinking and I’m not doing anything, and so I keep having to adjust. So, my role was really more advisory, if that. Trying to play a support role. Trying to support our students. This is even before the establishment or the creation of a Black Student Center. I would say, then, after that, I still continued to have relationships supporting the Black Student Union. At the time, the Cross-Cultural Center was a subset of what was known then as the Student Life and Leadership or SLL. And SLL, now called the Student Leadership and Involvement Center or SLIC, was in charge of student organizations. So, I as the Cross-Cultural Center, had responsibility over some of the student cultural organizations, of which BSU was one. And so, that was where my relationship continued to build with them, trying to support them, do leadership, trying to support the students who were a part of that. Around that time, as the LatinX Center got some momentum and eventually was established, right, there were students in the Black Student Union who said, “Hey.” The argument one could say is, for the LatinX Center, the population at campus was almost 50%—it was pretty high—that identified as Hispanic or LatinX or Latino. And so, there was a need for resources and support. On the other side of the spectrum, and this is not to take away from Native American or American Indian students, Indigenous students, the second lowest were Black students, I think hovering around 2-3%. And so, students at the time had expressed an interest and desire to say, “We need a space too because there’s not enough of us.” It was not so much because there’s so many, but it was a lack of visibility and a lack of resources to recruit. And I came to learn later on, it was an issue with some of the reputation of the area, right, whether or not it’s a welcoming and inviting space, whether or not there was a critical mass of faculty or staff so students would feel like, yes, I want to come to Cal State San Marcos. So, my role was very much tangential, was very much on the outsides trying to support it, recognizing that students needed additional resources and support in order to be able to provide them a space to congregate, a space to be able to discuss about issues that are specific to the Black community. BSU did that, right, to some degree. It just wasn’t necessarily as organized or had the resources and the staffing and the dedicated time that I think John, the current director John, is able to put forth in helping to support that community, right? And so, that’s the extent off my experience in relation to the creation and establishment of the Center. It was truly student developed and student driven. They organized and decided that they wanted to create a space. They were going to go and make a demand to the president, President Haynes at the time, and were strategic about when and how to demand or ask, right, (chuckles) strategically about the need for this. And I would say President Haynes, at the time, I think it—I wouldn’t say caught her off guard. I think it was very impactful because now she was on the spot and she could also challenge them and say, “Okay. What are the needs? Tell me what you need. Draft a proposal.” So, she put it right back to the students. And so, the students then went to work and they said, “Okay. This is what needs to happen.” And then, with support from faculty and staff, the Black Student Center was eventually established here at Cal State San Marcos. Ford: So, you helped support everyone. (chuckles) Lai: Yeah. Yeah. Ford: So, what did the student staff involved in the creation of the Black Student Center feel like they needed directly? I know you went into a little detail about it, but is there anything? Lai: Yeah. I’m very aware and I’ve actually shared with student activists, I say I’m here to support but I’m also part of the institution. (laughs) So, I think they were savvy enough to know like okay, I can only share this much with Floyd. So, I don’t know all the details of the thing. What I recall though was some of the things that I shared with you, that there was a lack of visibility for Black students and therefore there was a sort of spiral effect because at least the argument at the time was if I don’t see people like myself or other Black students, why do I want to come here to Cal State San Marcos? There’s no place for me to feel like I belong. So, a sense of belonging was one. A sense of programming that was dedicated. I shared with you, prior to that, I put together a Black History Month event about being Black in America and we kind of cobbled together some programming that would talk about those issues. But I wasn’t Black, right? So, I relied heavily on Black faculty or staff or even the students, to come up with ideas and concepts that could speak to that experience. But again, I was from an outsider view. I’m not Black and I don’t have that experience so I can’t speak to it. And, probably, this is just my take on it, there’s not a sense of authenticity or even—credibility is not the right word, but just authority as a Black individual to say this is what we need. I was kind of like “Hey. How can we help put this together programmatically so that there’s some visibility.” But I wasn’t—again, not being Black myself. So, I think that was another piece, seeing some additional programming that spoke to the community as opposed to from an outsider lens trying to see and fill a void that was there. I think there was also a desire for just a space. I mean, I think that’s where it always stems from. And I’m very cautious too, because I think any time you advocate for a Center or a space, if your only argument is we need a space, okay, well what’s that space supposed to do? Because there is strength, obviously, in numbers. But you could hang out in the dining hall. You can hang out outside and carve out your own space. So, what is the need for a Center? And so, I think they wanted to look at resources, ways in which tied to student success, to graduation rates. So, those are some things that I think eventually made it into the initial proposal and/or if not part of the demands into the proposal. And, you know, I think students had a lot of support from faculty and staff, as far as hearing their concerns and then being able to articulate that in a way to eventually formulate the initial plans for the movement towards an establishment of the Black Student Center on campus. Ford: So, what did you think the university administration communicated was their vision for the Black Student Center? Lai: I think they communicated that there was a desire to have it. I don’t know if they necessarily dictated what it was going to be. In my experience, to some degree, I think that as an administrator you’re looking at every piece, right? Where is it going to be? I mean, just because the president of an institution or a university says “Yes, it’s going to happen” doesn’t mean all the answers are (next few words unintelligible due to poor reception) Yes, it’s going to happen. Now figure out how it’s going to work (unclear) I think there was a commitment or a desire to meet the students, what they’re wanting to have. And I’ll be the first to say I think students have a lot of power, more so than they often think, when it comes to political will and capital because—And not to say that just because you could do it, you should. But because there’s the desire there, they articulated a good reason for why there was a need for a Black Student Center that was compelling enough that I think that the institution said “Okay. We’re going to do that.” Right? And so, the commitment was yes, we’re dedicated to this. It’s one of our values. Now, whether or not and there’s going to be personalities and histories of whether or not you believe what the president is saying or doesn’t say or the rest of the administration, there was definitely a commitment though on the heels of a LatinX Center being established, that there was the need because these two populations, both the Brown and Black populations, had different systemic issues, right? Whether it was retention as I mentioned earlier, or student success when it came to graduation rates, there was a desire. And so, both of these Centers actually stemmed or started from a—and this gets too much into the nitty gritty, but they came up through Student Academic Support Services. And so, their focus was primarily on student success. Whereas for me, in the Cross-Cultural Center, Gender Equity Center, and Pride Center, we all came up through different ways. The Gender Equity and Pride Center or Women’s Center came up through Associated Students. And so, it was very much student driven, student funded, right? That was funding stream. The Cross-Cultural Center was established under Student Life, under this engagement in Student Activities, that kind of thing. And the Black Student Center, LatinX Center, came under Student Academic Support Services. Now, they all overlap in a lot of ways, but it was very targeted, right? When you think of Student Academic Support, you’re thinking testing materials, time management, skills that were necessary for student success. And so, I think those were some elements that there was a dedication to, right, by the institution, by the university. So, we want these spaces to fall under this area because we want to increase the student success of both Black communities as well as Latino communities. So, I think that was what was communicated and conveyed by the institution. The rest of the details were left up to the person in charge at the time, right, to develop and see through what that would look like. Currently—and I would say this is more recently—my current supervisor, the Associate Vice President of Student Life, Dr. Gail Cole-Avant—she came on probably around the same time, no, about a year or two after the Black Student Center. So, prior to that, we all reported to different people. And so, that also meant that there was different focus and different priorities for each of our spaces. And so, this reorganization with the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Checa, to combine and create this new space where all the Centers were consolidated as a result of some external reviews was, I think, in a good way the university saying, “We need to do better. And this is our way to make sure that we are all aligned in moving forward,” because it kind of felt like we were going in three different directions, right, because ASI, Student Government, they have an agenda, a mission, a focus. My area around student leadership and student life is different. And then Black Student Center and the LatinX Center around student success and academics. So, they’re kind of different. They definitely overlap but they’re on different trajectories. By bringing them together, I think the institution is also saying that there’s a commitment to doing better, to moving towards success in aligning the resources, helping. We all support one another. We’re all staffs of one, to a certain degree. We rely heavily on graduate assistants and undergraduate students who work in our spaces. So, us leveraging and supporting one another I think provided a pathway to be able to move forward in a way that perhaps the Black Student Center wasn’t able to do prior. Ford: So, do you know of any pushback, internal or external, against the opening of the Black Student Center? Lai: You know, I think with any creation of new space where resources are being allocated, there are always going to be detractors and individuals who feel like is this the best use of our resources, right? I would say, from my lens where I was situated, there was not necessarily so much pushback per se as much as it was trying to understand what the purposes were, right? We knew we could have a Black Student Center. I was actually—just as far as my connection to the Center and I forgot about this—I was on the committee that selected the first director, right, or was invited to be a part of that. So, we knew at the time that the director was really going to set the stage, especially being the inaugural director for a brand-new space. This individual would have to articulate the vision ; would be able to link and connect with those that were on campus, both those that support it and perhaps even those that didn’t ; and be able to pool those resources together ; more importantly—and I think this was probably the priority—really build a rapport and a relationship with students, right, and student organizations because even if you build it, if they don’t come, then, you know—. So, you really need to help to let students know what is the purpose, why is it here, why it’s important, and to build those relationships. So, I would say that that was where our focus was. Outside of that, I don’t think that I was aware of. I wasn’t involved in any particular pushback. Was there? I’m sure there was, right? Others that may have said, I think—and it’s the same sort of trope—White students, and I use that broadly, right? But where is our White Center, right, because if you’ve got a LatinX Center, you’ve got a Black Student Center, where is the White Center? So, a lot of these things started coming through perhaps, right? Again, those were often funneled through the Office of Inclusive Excellence at the time. And so, I wasn’t necessarily a part of those sort of conversations or comments. But I will say that once a Center is established, then you start to get “Well, what about us? What about our Center? Where’s the Middle Eastern Center? Or where’s the Muslim Center, right, where we can pray? What about the Asian American Center, APIDA Center? What about the Jewish Center for the Jewish students on campus?” And so, I think it’s not so much pushback but it’s more of the “What about us now? What now?” Now that we’ve started this precedent, what does that mean? And so, I think there may have been obviously some conversations and discussions, maybe even some disagreements around that approach as well. But, beyond that, I didn’t necessarily hear any specific pushback to that because I think students had done a good job in I think articulating it. They had worked really closely with faculty. And also, the Black Faculty and Staff Association, they really helped to drive that home. So, I think, collectively, there was a desire to see that this would be successful. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, speaking of the opening, were you able to attend the grand opening? Lai: I try to remember. (laughs) That was a couple of years ago. I think I was in the back. And I don’t remember what year you are in school. Have you been? It’s on the 4th floor— Ford: Yeah, I’ve been. (chuckles) Yeah. Lai: —which is right by the stairwell. There’s not a lot of space and room in general, right? Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lai: So, I think it was up there. They did a ribbon cutting ceremony up there. I recall being kind of in the back (indicates behind him with both arms) because there’s only so much space you can have, right, in front, of where it was. And that’s my recollection because I think there was a photo that I saw on a website way back when, when it was first established, or there may still be one in the archival footage, of the first director and then also with President Haynes doing some ribbon cutting and ceremonial things with the Center. But, after that, the first, his name was Anthony Jett. I, along with some of the other directors for the Centers, we all collaboratively work together. And so, I would have opportunities, right, to connect with the first director in trying to figure out programmatically different ideas, different approaches, and ways to look at the situation and how we can ensure the success of the Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, how did it feel the first time you visited the Center? You have any (last word unintelligible) Lai: Yeah. Well, so I’ve been here long enough that, you know, that space prior—there was some work that had to be done. That used to be the meditation stress-free zone, I guess. It was meant to be a prayer space, initially. So, it has undergone some renovation. But if you ever go up to the bathroom that’s right there as well—because there used to be a display case—and so they had removed it and created space so the folks could actually access it. There’s a gender-neutral bathroom or single stall use bathroom up there. But you’ll notice it’s different from others because there’s actually a—oh, I’m forgetting what the Islamic term is for it—but a wash station. So, you can sit. And so, the intent was that for those, particularly those, of our Muslim faith that we had a dedicated space for spirituality, prayer. Sometimes, it was a nap space, right, but for meditation. So, it was converted from that. And so, it’s right above the Cross-Cultural Center when you look at the specs. They did a really great job with the small amount of space that was there, right? I would say also, too—and being all transparent as well—having a space is important. Where the space is located is also important. So, we ran out of room on the 3rd floor. There was no other way to chop up. The LatinX Center got wedged in between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Gender Equity Center. It used to be called the Social Justice—It was meant to be a training space, and they made (words cut off. Maybe “it into”?) the LatinX Center, right? And in the same vein, we can’t have a Black Student Center halfway across the campus. It has to all be in the same space, but we ran out of room. So, it’s on the 4th floor. And so, the fact that they converted it, I mean it’s a beautiful space. You have nice views. You can see it. It’s a small space, right? It can get crowded real quickly, especially if you get a critical mass, like a lot of our spaces, but just in general. And it’s right up on the top so there’s a lot of visibility as folks are walking past and go through. What I will say, though— and this is something that I think all Centers and spaces struggle with—if you see a community of people in the space, there’s always this question of do I belong here or don’t I, right? And so, I did hear early on, right, some of the challenges were “Oh, I’m not Black. I can’t go in the space. (chuckles) Should I set foot inside?” Even though if you want to learn about—Just because it’s called the Black Student Center, it’s focused on Black issues and other things that affect the Black community, but it’s not limited to individuals who identify as Black. And so, that has always been a tension, right, when it comes to who can come into the space, who’s allowed to step through the doors. Do I feel comfortable? Some of that we, as directors of our spaces, we try to make it as inviting as much as we can. But, ultimately, it’s up to that student to step through that door (chuckles) and take that step to go inside that space. So, you know, it was a beautiful space. They had a great computer lab, self-publish stations. It was very tiny so there was one office and one desk. There was a small kitchenette and other things that you would normally want to see in a student-centered space for individuals. So, yeah, it was an exciting time. I would say, like any new spaces on campus, we want to make sure that they’re successful. And people hung out there. I will say, right, so just being in the Cross-Cultural Center and as these spaces have evolved and developed, people that we normally would have seen previously in some of our spaces then started to go and gravitate, right? So, if there were Black individuals who at one point prior hung out in the Cross-Cultural Center, they now felt like—well, I don’t know if they felt like, but I would maybe see them upstairs now, right? I would have to go upstairs to connect with them versus before they would be just be right behind me, whether on couches or something like that. I could just say, “Hey, how’s it going?” and connect with them. So, that’s all part of the shift that I think that happened with student spaces, and where you feel comfortable, where you feel like you belong. And those are always dynamic, and they change, depending on the students when they come in and how they pass on orally (next few words are cut off) . . . students hang out. And then, all of a sudden you start to get some of these myths about where people should or shouldn’t be with regard to that. Ford: So, can you tell me a little bit about the early focus of the Black Student Center’s programs, and different initiatives that they did during the day? Lai: Yeah. What I recall—and, again, I wasn’t integral in the design, because Anthony Jett, the first director, really dictated a lot of that, but in my conversations with him there were a few themes that I recognized, right? One, I think, was leveraging the experience of the community in North County, which—I don’t think North County—Not to say that there aren’t Black communities, but it’s not predominantly an area regionally known for that. And so, part of it was establishing relationships. So, I want to say the NAACP has a chapter, I think, in North County or maybe in Vista or nearby. Mira Costa has centers or spaces. And so, Mira Costa does a Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of Service, right, for example, which at our campus we don’t do. We have Cesar Chavez, at the time. We do now. And so, there were—I think, Anthony, some of his first parts were really establishing those relationships because, again, there had not been a Black Student Center prior. And so, those relationships weren’t necessarily there, or the focus and taking the time to focus on those relationships weren’t necessarily there. I also think that, wherever possible, the director would try to help with recruitment. So, when we think about outreach on our campus, oftentimes these occur seventh, eighth grade, maybe high school. And so, he would spend a lot of his time either going to high school or conferences or fairs to try and let them know about the fact that there was a Black Student Center and that, yes, there are Black students and a Black community, even though it’s small, at Cal State San Marcos. It was establishing relationships with organizations like the NAACP or other institutions. It was really getting involved in the community. And that’s something, I think from what I observed, was something he spent a lot of his time doing, right? Secondary to that, and that’s where we often connected, was the programmatic nature of what was the focus and what was it going to look like. And he—and I’m forgetting what his affiliation is—but he was part of one of the Divine Nine. It may have been Omega Psi, Omega Phi? I haven’t been on campus, so my Greek is—Omega Psi Phi, I think it is, one of the Black fraternities. He himself was a member, so he built relationships, right, and brought on the fraternity and helped in those efforts, strengthened those pieces with regard to community, tried to have programming with students and work collaboratively with the Black Student Union. Student organizations, they ebb and flow (laugh) depending on who the leadership is. Sometimes, they’re really strong and sometimes people are busy and so there’s not a lot of traction. So, whatever the leadership was at the time, I think he tried to forge relationships with them as well. So yeah, I think those were the efforts. I think also knowing, and I shared with you early on, when I came on and there was no other Center and space, I primarily drove a lot of the History Months or the Heritage Months. And so, with the establishment of the Black Student Center now, there could be a focus. And that became their responsibility or purview to some degree, if they wanted to do programming or things like that and how they might be able to support community, create community, create opportunities for folks to gather. Those were all efforts that I think Black History Month, Black Excellence Month now, those are some of the programming efforts and focus that he was in charge of. I want to say he started in August, in the summer, so he had a really quick pivot time to try and get going because usually with planning like this, for any programming, a couple months in advance you want to be there. So, he was scrambling, not only trying to build those relationships, but also create some sort of programming that would work. So, we often would leverage and say, “Oh yeah. We’ve got this program. Let’s support one another,” or things like that, in helping to move that work forward and increasing the visibility of the Center and space. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, current, and previously, have there been any collaborative efforts between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center? Lai: There have. I mentioned earlier, more recently, I would say we have looked at different ways to view those collaborations. So, first and foremost, the Cross-Cultural Center does a program called the Social Justice Summit which is a weekend retreat to talk about issues of social justice, to explore identity. How does that connect with the choices and decisions we make to look at power and privilege? And then, it’s a three-day conference, so by the last day of the summit/retreat, we are looking at what does that mean? How do we become an ally? So, all the Centers, including the Black Student Center once they came online, were all invited collaborators with that sort of social justice programming. It’s not only signature programs but it’s also a way that all of us intersect across our different programming areas. So, that’s definitely one area that I would say he was invited to. But again, he had so much on his plate, I don’t know if we were necessarily able to leverage that at the time when he first came onboard with the Black Student Center. Since then—and I’ll speak probably more recently and actually this is going to be tomorrow—we are doing a program tomorrow called Beyond Just Us: Empathy and Justice Across Communities, and that’s a collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center. Now, that has also been a shift in our space. And I know we’re not talking about the Cross-Cultural Center, but we started to do more programming in the absence of an Asian Pacific Islander Desi American-dedicated space. And that’s not us. We have a lot of students who identify, that hang out in our space: Filipino, Chinese, otherwise. But, in the absence of an actual space, we’re doing programming because there’s still going to be a need for that. So, that’s a program defining diaspora, APIDA identities. That’s a program series we do within our space. And in light of the recent assaults and attacks on Asian American communities, and sometimes by perpetrators who were perceived as Black, we’ve seen an increase in the solidarity marches and/or the ways in which both of these communities have come together, right? And so, Chamorro (Cultural Festival) is an example of where we’re looking at what does that intersectionality look like between Asian and Black communities? What has that history been, right? In the description, we talk about this trope. I don’t know when you were born, Ayana, but I was in high school during the 1992 riots, Rodney King, when the policemen were acquitted and the aftermath of all that, or actually leading up to all that, right, what happened as a result of his beating. And at the time—again, so this goes back to your very first question about my lens and stuff in high school—that was probably another point, just looking at those relationships because I remember having arguments with my Korean friends like “Why are you going to L.A.?” I’m not anti-gun. I’m not a fan of having any firearms in general, right? That’s not for me to deal with. And I remember having heated conversations with them about why are you going to Korea Town. Just stay safe! And they’re like “No. This is our livelihood, so we need to protect ourselves.” Well, anyway, there was this trope. There was this “It’s Black against Asian,” right, because L.A., and then if you go to Korea Town, those are the businesses that were being looted or specifically targeted. And so, that trope has reemerged again, right? “Oh, these attacks against Asian American communities, they’re all perpetrated by Black people.” And so, there’s this thing where, again, looking at White supremacy in a broader context, things that I’m starting to learn more about now, that it’s pitting two different groups against one another rather than looking at the larger issues and systemic issues that are happening that are shared across both communities. And so, because of that, that’s what we’re going to be exploring a little bit tomorrow, right, is kind of demystifying that trope, recognizing where each of these communities have some commonality, where they can stand in solidarity, how we can feel like we can be empathetic but also be accountable, right, to those things, and the complicated histories, right? I talk about how Asian Americans can sometimes perpetuate that notion of anti-Blackness. So, what is our role in that, and then where does that apply when the perceived perpetrators are they themselves Black, right? It’s not about blaming but looking at the bigger picture. So, that’s just another more current example, yet to happen tomorrow, that we’re going to be putting on. And I look forward to possibly great relationships now with John being the current director and because of the structures that I mentioned earlier in our conversation, where we work more closely together than we have previously. We’re being able to see more opportunities to collaborate and to do some programming between the Black Student Center and the Cross-Cultural Center, and that it’s more targeted, right? Another one that didn’t happen this year but perhaps the next year—one thing that we do in the Cross-Cultural Center to differentiate ourselves from some of the other spaces is we have a focus on advocacy and activism. What does that look like? We’re not going to dictate, this is how you are an activist or not, (laughs) you’re an activist. But we do believe that I think students need to know about what are some models. What are some strategies? What are—you know, protests are important, and it definitely has a place in creating change. It’s not the only way to create change. It’s the most visible way, and I think oftentimes students and others conflate that if I’m going to be an activist, I have to be out on the streets. (laughs) And so, we’re trying to provide different venues and avenues for exploring what activism and advocacy looks like. Also, as a tangent—and this goes back, sort of connected—but I’ve been a part of my professional associations and I went to conferences, and one of the things that struck me was that when a lot of these Black Lives Matter protests were occurring, it was a student who was at Stanford. He was an engineer. He was a Black student. But he talked about “I go to these protests, and I got arrested. I wasn’t expecting to be arrested, but I got arrested. And then, the rest of the semester, I had to deal with going to court, working with my lawyer,” all these things that, in the moment, he hadn’t thought about necessarily, or maybe he thought about but he didn’t think it all the way through. And so, those were all things that caused me to think about “Okay, we need to do more to help educate our students so that it’s not like ‘Hey, come with me. We’re going to go do this.’” It’s more like “Okay. If you are going to go protest and you might get arrested, what are some practical things you should know about before you go there, right?” all those things. Anyway. So, having said that—that was a lot—we, as part of that program of the Activist Lab, which is another program series we do—we were going to explore the legacy of John Lewis. So, this year, in particular, the library has—their read is the book They Came for Us, by George Takei, which is a graphic novel, and the power of graphic novels. And so, March, the book by John Lewis, is a three-part book, talks and illustrates similarly and actually was inspiration, I believe, for the George Takei book, They Came for Us. So, we were going to work with the Black Student Center, going all the way back to your first question for that collaboration, of trying to do a book discussion about March, right? What was John Lewis’s legacy? How did he, at his young age, decide to do what he did when it came to protesting and sitting in diners where he wasn’t supposed to be? So, again, this was just through a lens of trying to understand strategies, looking at models or individuals who could be models of what activism looks like and how do they come to those decisions. But we needed to postpone that, but that’s another example of a program where we worked with the Black Student Center or will be working with the Black Student Center in identifying programmatic opportunities and connections. And there will continue to be opportunities because very much all of our work is very intersectional in nature. We all believe that I’m not just an Asian identified individual. I’m male. I’m heterosexual or straight, right? All those identities impact one another and sometimes they coincide with some of these other spaces like the LatinX Center or the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. Lai: Yeah. Ford: I look forward to hearing more about those programs. Lai: Yeah. (laughs) Ford: So, do you know why the Black Student Center was moved from Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. I think part of it was, again, a restructuring to leverage resources. I think there was—I won’t get too much into it, but I reported up to the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Lorena Checa. However, we all reported differently to different supervisors. And so, that in and of itself causes—so, I may have a different focus or approach than Student Success has an approach, right? And so, we just had different ways in which we’re doing it— (reception starts to become very choppy) Ford: Can you hold off one second? (seems to be trying to figure out how to improve reception) Lai: —instead of going in three different directions, we feel like we’re all going in the same direction. Oh, sure. Ford: So, why was the Black Student Center moved from the Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. My short answer would be that it was a leveraging of resources. Whereas reporting to three different associate vice presidents, by going to a singular associate vice president or supervisor, and then to the vice president of student affairs, we are in lockstep to some degree. We still have a lot of autonomy but we’re moving in the same direction, whereas before we may have been going in three different directions because we each had a supervisor who may have had a different approach or had a thought about what we should be prioritizing. Consolidating those efforts, in my estimation, has helped us to really focus in on what is it that collectively, all five of us, how do we tell our story? Where are there areas for overlap, collaboration, or opportunities that we previously connected with? And we want to collaborate. The campus, by nature, we just tend to be collaborative in general, but even more so now. We can leverage the fact that we all have the same supervisor, the same area. We all have a similar basic mission now around this notion of student life in moving forward. Now, Student Success is a part of Student Life. It all, again, overlaps in a lot of ways. But having a singular supervisor, in my estimation, helps us to move that more successfully and hopefully make bigger strides in progressing and moving our individual agendas or our approaches more effectively and efficiently. Ford: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, what are some of the wrinkles that needed to be ironed out during the opening of the Center? Lai: I think same as anyone else, how people could fit. Who’s going to fit? (chuckles) When we could have food, do we have enough food for everyone? How much is that going to cost? Are people going to come? Are they not going to come? How do we ensure success? What is success defined as? I think those are all part of the wrinkles. We all have a blueprint for what we hope will happen, but the wrinkles are really the details in trying to figure out what needs to happen, how to ensure that those things are happening. Those are some of the early ones, I think, more than anything. Just like any new Center or space, you’ve got to publicize. And it’s funny. You could be screaming from the top. You could have a million signs— (laughs) Ford: Mm-hmm. (nods) Lai: —on the door that tell you exactly what’s going on and you still will have people go “Oh, what’s this?” Right? Because people are just not in that frame of mind. And in the same vein, you could be screaming from the rooftops, “We have a Black Student Center!” and you’ll inevitably have a student that goes “Oh. I didn’t know that we had it.” (laughs) Getting yourself visible, letting folks know about it, helping them understand what the initial purpose is, who is it for? I heard stories, and these were probably from Black students, they’d be sitting there, and people would be walking and tiptoeing by the door. They’d look inside and they would keep walking, right? Like “Is this where I’m supposed to— Can I come in?” And these were also Black students, maybe even too, to some degree, right? So, just those experiences and hesitancies, I think, are all part of the wrinkles that were a part of that sort of opening to some degree. Our program as well, in the first year, we were trying to establish what is the . . . What are the needs of the students? How do I meet those needs and ensure that this is a place that they would want to come back to? Those are all wrinkles, I think, that I think early on needed to be worked . . . And why—all the more reason that any inaugural director has a huge burden to try and lift, right, when you’re the first of any (technical difficulties) because it’s freeing as there’s no precedent. It doesn’t feel like you have to step up to anything. But at the same time there’s no real benchmark either for what that’s like (technical difficulties) And so, those are all the wrinkles and things that people sorted through in the early days of the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, what do you feel like the main purpose of the creation of the Center was? I knew you went into a little bit of detail on that before, but in your opinion. Lai: Yeah. I think that there is an acknowledgment and a desire that spaces like these can be helpful in supporting students in their efforts (technical difficulties) I feel like (technical difficulties) just as they need to be able to move forward. There are ways in which that can be manifest. There are different models. I came from a—I told you about the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine where I did my undergrad and then eventually worked for a couple of years. They were established in the early ‘70s, but then higher education has gone through budget cuts and then sometimes it does well. So, there’s a lot of these cycles. And there was a moment in time where “We don’t have money. So, we’re going to consolidate everything. And then, we’ll have specialists,” right? And then, there’s other times where it’s like they see it’s a dedicated space, right? And so, I think we go through cycles like that. And so, I think regardless of the efforts that I may have tried to do or contribute, either in supporting the student organization, I wasn’t Black, you know. And that’s not a dig and saying that you have to be in order to. I just didn’t really have that perspective or experience. And so, I think there was a need to have a Center or a space dedicated, especially in light of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these things that are issues that are more complex and complicated that I think require those people to be able to—And even then (next few words unintelligible due to reception) that’s of value for any particular challenge. So, I think there’s that. There was the fact that students wanted it, right? And there was a desire for that. And so, we want to support students in those efforts. But we also want to make sure that students are doing it thoughtfully and not, as I said, just because they want a space. They need to be able to justify why. And I think they were able to articulate that there was a need. So, to me, that’s the reason why I think a Black Student Center needed to exist. There was not enough programming or attention being paid to the issues that the Black community needed to address at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the Black Student Center helped to fill that void to some degree (technical difficulties) individuals who focused their specifically on the needs of the Black community and how to move those efforts forward. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, do you think that purpose has been accomplished? Lai: I think it’s in process. I think that we’re moving in the right direction. I believe so. I think all those things I mentioned about our students coming, how do we generate those. Because students come every year, right, and cycle through every four years, in a lot of ways because people that are coming in don’t always have the context or the history. And so, I think it can feel repetitive but for the student who has never been there, it’s the first time they’re hearing this information and what the purpose of the Black Student Center might be. And so, to your question, yes, they are accomplishing it. I feel like they’re moving in that direction. I think that they’re building community. I feel like we’re there tackling and connecting with spaces like mine across (technical difficulties) the Cross-Cultural Center (technical difficulties) to really (technical difficulties) because there are so many (technical difficulties) you know, or if you are Black from Africa versus Black in the United States. All of those things I think are part of that direction and effort of what the Black Student Center is trying to accomplish. And so, I believe, yes, they are moving in the right direction, and there’s always going to be opportunities to do better. But I feel confident that they’re making strides. The fact that we get a chance to talk about the oral history and talking about the history of the Center is a positive step in the right direction, to acknowledge its origins and also perspective on what its impact has been on Cal State San Marcos. And, for me, that means that if you have the ability to go back and reflect, that means you kind of have a good . . . because early on, it’s hard to know where you want to go when you don’t know where you’ve been, is something I learned from a mentor. And so, history, context has been such a part of my own professional development. And so, I was excited and why I was “Oh, yeah. I want to sign up. I want to be a part of this project,” because these pieces are helpful for future generations to understand what it was, why it was created, why it should be continued or why I think they should continue to fight for its existence in the future, regardless of whatever may happen in the future. Ford: So, how did the Black Student Center opening impact you personally? Lai: I was excited for it. I think I could see individuals, as I mentioned, who maybe hung out in our spaces prior really excited and really happy that they had a space that they felt like they could call their own, right? Again, not to say they couldn’t come downstairs and hang out in the Cross-Cultural Center, but a space that they feel like they had a connection to. Very much like when I shared with you my own personal experience with (technical difficulties) race formational center because I was going through this sort of with my own identity development. I saw very much in them what I saw in myself many, many years ago at UC Irvine, that they felt like they had a place that they felt a direct connection to. It wasn’t necessarily transactional. It wasn’t like “I’m just here to use the computer.” It was a space where they could go and they could find community, where they could be themselves. And I didn’t say this but where you could go and be yourself without having to explain yourself to anyone else, if that makes sense, right? (technical difficulties) a lot of places where there’s a lot of diverse people and then people ask you questions and you’re like “Okay. I’ve got to talk about that again,” versus you go to spaces like a Black Student Center if you’re Black in particular, and people just get you, right? There’s not a what? Why? What? You know, it’s just they get you. So, I think I saw that energy being—and I still see it now, right, with the students that decide or choose to be a part of those spaces. And so, that’s kind of (technical difficulties), that I’ve observed and seen. Anytime there’s a new space that is focused on the wellbeing and success of student populations, particularly those that are marginalized, I think I’ve come to appreciate and be optimistic that those spaces can serve a greater purpose, right, and how they can help students in their own personal development much like the Cross-Cultural Center did for me when I was at UC Irvine. Ford: So, with how everything is, what would you expect next to see from the Black Student Center? Lai: That’s a great question. That’s a John (Rawlins III), the director, question. I guess what I would hope to see is opportunities to engage in broader conversations, right, of what Blackness looks like in the many other spaces or other communities. I would love to see a large number of students get (technical difficulties) and come into Cal State San Marcos as their first choice, not necessarily just because there’s a Black Student Center, but because there’s a sense that the Cal State San Marcos campus is dedicated to Black excellence, is dedicated to the success of students, and it’s demonstrated because the students have this. It’s one of multiple pieces, right? But it can play an integral piece in the cocurricular experience that students have. I’m in Student Affairs and what that means is that I look at the co-curriculum, what happens outside of the classroom. There’s a lot that happens inside the classroom, but I often believe that if they have a great experience outside of the classroom, those narratives, those anecdotes, those stories supplement what they learn in the classroom, right? There’s this theory. How does this thing—? You’re like, “Well, I have experienced that. Can I translate that into better experiences?” So, it’s the cycle and there is some reciprocity. What happens inside the classroom, what happens outside the classroom, there’s a symbiotic relationship. And so, I look forward to a time when the Black Student Center can continue to play a critical role in those efforts for our Black students at Cal State San Marcos. I guess long term, and optimistically, I hope that like “Oh my gosh. They got an amazing Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos.” And so, that definitely is going to be the reason why I want to be able to go there, right? They’ve got some amazing programs or initiatives that are unique or novel. They look at it a little bit differently. They’re very creative, right? That you wouldn’t necessarily (technical difficulties) I think those are things that I look forward to, right? I’m also aware of the fact that our current structure—John is the only director (chuckles) ; there’s a lot of us who help—that it's not his burden to bear alone, if that makes sense, right? Just like when we talk about issues of diversity or issues of inclusive excellence, it’s not just a diversity people. It’s not the people of color’s responsibility alone. Everyone has to play a role. And so, in that same vein, the Black Student Center’s success will also hinge on my ability to provide and support them and help them to be successful in my own contributions, whether it’s being a part of this, finding ways to assist them and help them in their efforts, defending them when necessary, when people go “Why do we need a Black Student Center?” and helping to foster and build a stronger community together. Ford: So, are there any other questions that I haven’t asked that I could or which you want to add or anything else? Lai: No. It was pretty thorough. I was curious because as I was hearing about the oral history project, I know we talked about it. I said, “Okay, you want to send me the questions?” And you’re like “Oh, no. It’s just going to be a conversation.” So, I had no idea what the questions are going to be. And so, I was like “Why do they care what my childhood was like?” (both laugh) Because this is for the Black Student Center Oral History Project. But I appreciate those questions, and--and motivations, right, for my connection to the Black Student Center. In my self defense, I am someone or co-conspirator to some degree, someone who wants to create positive change in the community. I’m still doing the work every day and trying to figure out what I could do better each time, what to do differently, right, in a way that hopefully is helpful. I still learn from John, the director, and help support him. So, yeah. So, thank you so much— Ford: Thank you so much for letting me interview you. That was a wonderful— Lai: —for the opportunity. (I don’t have) anything else to add other than yeah, for the opportunity to share with you and to get to know you better, or at least partially, right? (both laugh) Ford: Thank you so much. Lai: Of course, Ayana. I think that’s it for me, right? Is there any other questions or no? Ford: No. Lai: We’re good? Ford: Yeah. Lai: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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Interview, April 19, 2021 Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. In this interview, Lai also discusses his life and childhood. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-03 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history