8 10 83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stella Clark OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. SC027-46 01:26:18 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Education, Higher ; California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department ; Kansas University ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; California State University San Bernadino ; San Bernadino (Calif.) ; Roma (Motion picture : 2018) ; Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) ; Mexicans--United States ; Mexican Americans--California--San Diego County ; Mexican Americans--Education (Higher) ; Immigrants--United States Stella Clark Sean Visintainer Video ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.mp4 1.0:|22(4)|31(19)|44(8)|53(8)|72(13)|102(3)|117(3)|127(8)|135(7)|146(14)|162(6)|173(10)|186(7)|201(5)|212(11)|223(6)|238(8)|248(16)|258(10)|268(12)|282(4)|293(3)|304(10)|316(14)|328(9)|338(3)|347(11)|361(6)|377(13)|388(5)|400(13)|415(19)|425(7)|441(7)|451(3)|460(16)|469(15)|481(10)|491(6)|502(15)|517(16)|527(15)|537(3)|548(8)|560(4)|572(12)|591(5)|601(16)|611(14)|621(6)|635(6)|645(16)|653(18)|672(6)|680(15)|690(4)|701(10)|717(3)|731(7)|739(14)|752(5)|763(8)|772(16)|784(6)|794(14)|817(15)|827(12)|837(4)|848(13)|857(17)|866(3)|884(5)|896(4)|906(5)|915(11)|927(6)|940(12)|953(17)|962(9)|972(11)|984(11)|997(13)|1006(14)|1018(5)|1032(13)|1049(9)|1056(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/110ee8dd522d39f94e58d60fb1d44cf4.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction Interview with Dr. Stella Clark, August 9th, 2023. 0 44 Education and life synopsis Stella Clark is originally from Mexico City and moved to the U.S., East Lansing Michigan to be precise, in the eighth grade. She then moved to Oxford Mississippi in which she would be there from her high school years and into college. She discusses the culture shock she experienced and how schools were segregated at the time. Clark then moved to Kansas and received a masters and a PhD at Kansas University. She would eventually meet her husband while attending the university and then move to California and got her first job at California State University, San Bernardino. PhD ; Masters ; Mexico City ; Jose Clark ; Oxford, Mississipi ; East Lansing, Michigan ; California State University, San Bernadino 0 331 Living in Colonia Roma/Moving to U.S. Clark is from Colonia Roma, Mexico and her father first came to the U.S. to pursue his PhD in Texas. Once he finished, Clark's family moved to Lansing, Michigan where her father intended that the whole family would eventually achieve PhDs. Her mother received a PhD in Spanish just like Clark would in the future, and her father received a PhD in economics. Clark then goes on to describe her love for Mexico and how urbane it was compared to where she lived in the United States. She explains the difficulty of living in Michigan in regards to the social and cultural customs. Clark would soon move to Mississippi where she the ethos was similar to Mexico. PhD ; Texas ; Michigan State ; Mississippi ; Lansing, Michigan ; Colonia Roma ; Mexico ; cultural ; social customs 0 949 Spanish skills/Majoring in French Clark explains how she would maintain her Spanish speaking skills within the U.S. by reading novels. She eventually would earn her bachelor's degree in French and would pursue a graduate degree in French as well at KU. However, the department split and she would end up receiving a graduate degree in Spanish. This is where she would take multiple Spanish classes in which Clark not only maintained but advanced her Spanish speaking skills. Clark also spoke Spanish at home and would go on to marry a Cuban immigrant, whom she also spoke Spanish with. Spanish ; French ; Kansas University ; Ole Miss University ; Mississippi ; Cuban ; Married ; Graduate school ; Bachelors 0 1367 Teenage years/Finding her place Clark discusses how the U.S. education system underwent a transformative shift, evolving from a highly regimented structure to a greater emphasis on fostering individual student success. There was more flexibility and freedom within the classroom but still some rigidity that did not line up. Clark explains how she developed faster than most girls and it made it challenging for her to get along with the other teenage girls. It was not until she moved to Oxford, Mississippi that she would feel like she found her place and would meet her childhood best friend. regimented ; education shift ; transformation ; culture shock ; rigidity ; teenage ; mississippi ; 1950's 0 1910 Getting her PhD/ Meeting her husband Clark went to Kansas University (KU) to pursue her PhD in French which would become a PhD in Spanish. She explains how she met her husband at KU and would get married only a year after seeing one another. The main reason for the quick marriage was due to how conservative society was at the time and how she could jeopardize her position at the university. PhD ; Kansas University ; Latin America ; Marriage 0 2374 Clark's first professional position After receiving her PhD Clark would land her first job at California State University San Bernardino and her husband would get a job at the library at the same university. She explains how she would reject various administrative jobs for the sake of her husband. Eventually she would encourage him to go to graduate school so he could have a career out of being a librarian. Clark explains how her and her husband complement one another in terms of their professions. administrative ; career ; PhD 0 2695 Moving to California/Starting at CSUSM Clark explains how California is in such close proximity to Mexico and how it is advertised as paradise. She recalls how she made her switch from working at CSUSB to California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) from her desire to work in administration. However the position at CSUSM was a lot more intense since she had to create a program from scratch. 0 3049 Creating CSUSM's language lab Clark was tasked with creating a language lab at CSUSM and used her connections from CSUSB to help her build the lab. She explains how she built the lab and what was required from her. Clark learned that in order to get the best things one has to wheel and deal and ask for things that would make them excel in their positions. She explains how her focus was to help students become versatile in their career, but also highlighted the importance of faculty supporting them within their journey. &#13 ; language lab ; creating department 0 3602 Clark's dissertation Clark explains how her dissertation in graduate school was very unconventional and all the struggles she went through in order to get it approved. She was using an American method of close reading on Mexican literature in which analyzed the patterns of an individual. She explains how this would later help her in her career and help her understand individuals. dissertation ; academia ; graduate ; levi strauss ; spanish literature ; american literature 0 3926 Challenges of creating a department Clark describes the biggest challenges she experienced when founding the department at CSUSM. She explains how faculty on the campus often forgot that they are working for a community in which the students pay for their own schooling and support themselves. Clark admires how these students genuinely care for their education and want to learn in which was different to the students she taught at KU. She compares how different the students values were at CSUSM than to Kansas University. public education ; Kansas University ; student success 0 4251 What Clark's students have taught her Clark explains the challenges her students would go through but still managed to achieve their academic goals. She has a deep respect for CSUSM's students due to their resilience and desire to actually learn. She explains how she would buy books for her students who may not have been able to afford them and allow them to keep it for their own personal library. hardworking ; resiliance ; student success ; CSUSM student body 0 4643 "Roma" (the movie) Clark explains how the movie Roma perfectly describes what her life was like growing up in Roma, Mexico. The movie allowed her to understand the life of the working class in Mexico and see them from a different vantage point. She also explains how living in the U.S. as an exile how you always will feel a sense of foreignness. exile ; foreignness ; displacement ; mexico ; Roma 0 Video Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education ; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an eduction. Visintainer: All right. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: All right. Thank you, Stella. This is Sean Visintainer, head of Special Collections at California State University San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Stella Clark for our University Archives oral history collection. The date is August 9th, 2023, and this recording is happening on Zoom. Dr. Clark, thank you so much for interviewing with us today. Clark: I'm happy to be here answering your questions and having a chat with you. Visintainer: Yes. So we're really happy that you could join me for this interview as well. And so I wanted to start off talking about your childhood. And I understand you're originally from Mexico? Clark: I am. Visintainer: Where from, where in Mexico are you from? Clark: Well, I was born someplace else, but I should say that I was brought up in Mexico City. So, it's actually a big city. From the time that I was born, I was taken there. So it's not, you know, I mean it's--I didn't really change my life that much. Because actually Mexico City was a lot more advanced than where I went to live here in the United States. Because it was a city of five million. And I went to live in a town that had maybe twenty thousand? So, my dad was a college professor and he moved the whole family in the fifties. And I came along with the family. And my first experience in the United States was when I was in the eighth grade, in East Lansing, Michigan. So, it was quite a culture shock for me. Not because of Mexico to the US but because of the big city to the small town. And then we ended up living in Mississippi for most of, most of my high school years and my college years. So I ended, I started with the Midwest and then ended up in the South. And that is the deep south, Oxford, Mississippi. That's where I went to high school. And I went to college there. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: So that was a big culture shock, not because of the US thing, but because I came from the Midwest where I was getting kind of adjusted to US life in a small town to the big, to a smaller town in the south. And there was segregation at the time. So, of course I went to the white high school. Just because of the way I look. They never, they didn't think in the South, you're either black or you're white. At least at the time. They didn't go into any refinements of, you know, mestizo or mixed race or anything like that. So I ended up going to a white high school, and then I went to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. That's where I got my first degree. And then I ended up again in the Midwest, ‘cause I went to the University of Kansas for my graduate studies. And that's where another culture shock, because going from the deep South to the real--to the corn belt, you know? That was very conservative very, kind of a dull place to be, except that Lawrence, Kansas was a wonderful, wonderful town. And I got my degrees from the University of Kansas, both degrees, the MA and the PhD. And I met my husband there. And that was another culture shock because he's Cuban. And he was, you know, brought up very Cuban, even though he had lived in the US quite a bit. And so, we got married in 1967, so we just celebrated our fifty-sixth anniversary. Visintainer: Congratulations. Clark: Thank you. Yeah. We--our wedding date was August fifth, so we just celebrated it by doing nothing. (laughter) Visintainer: That's how we just celebrated ours as well. Clark: Oh, congratulations to you. (Visintainer laughs) Visintainer: Thank you. Clark: So anyway, it was a, it was a very pleasant time at the University of Kansas. And then my whole--my dream was always to come to California. So, when I was--I started looking for a job. I applied to a lot of places in California and I sent like five hundred letters, something like that. And then my first job, full-time faculty job was at Cal State San Bernardino. And I ended up staying there for nineteen years. So that was a whole early career, was at Cal State San Bernardino. Do you have any questions so far? Visintainer: I do. I actually wanted to circle back to Mexico. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: What neighborhood in Mexico City where you from? Clark: Colonia Roma. Visintainer: Okay. Okay. Clark: Have you seen the movie? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. I saw Roma. And I've been there myself. It's a beautiful area. Clark: I lived there. I lived about five blocks from where that movie was shot. Visintainer: Okay. And that movie took place, when was that movie? It was the sixties, or? Clark: That was in the seventies. Visintainer: In the seventies. Clark: He (director Alfonso Cuarón) had to change a lot of things. He even had to do the (building) facades, but there are a lot of places that are the same as they were when I was a kid there in that neighborhood. And it was, it was a good place to live. My mother owned two townhouses there in Roma. So that's where I spent most of my childhood. But then she sold the houses when we moved to the US, for $5,000 each. And now, I think that would be in the millions. Visintainer: Yeah. Probably. Clark: It's a desirable neighborhood. Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. What were--so why did your parents decide to emigrate? Clark: Well, my dad was a college professor, and college professors don't work out in Mexico very well ‘cause they have to have other careers. They don't pay that much at the university, so they have to have a second career that, like a day job, you know? And so, and my dad was German. That's a long history. I don't, I don't even want to get into that because it's really complicated and interesting. But so he, you know, he married my mother and they decided that they, he wanted to get his PhD in Texas. At the University of Texas. So he went, came to the US to get his PhD and left the family behind. But he started taking us one by one. First he took my mom, then my little brother who was very young. And the whole time we were staying with relatives, so. Anyway, so we ended up finally the whole family in the US in 1956. The whole family in Lansing, Michigan. But we came piecemeal. So it was, you know, staying with aunts and uncles. And living in different areas where I was sort of the, I wasn't really in my, with my family. So we were kind of aimless. Because, you know, since I was with so many different relatives, but my dad had a purpose. And so, he said, when he brought the whole family, he was gonna create a goal for us. And we all ended up studying, you know, higher, getting higher degrees. Having careers. And so, because of my dad. He also made my mother get a PhD. So, we all got degrees at the University of Mississippi first. Visintainer: Okay. And what were your parents' PhDs in? Clark: My mom was in Spanish, like me, and my dad was in economics. He actually turned out to be a pretty well-known professor in the, in Latin American economics. And he was very productive, being a good German. He wrote a lot of books. And he ended up at the University of West Florida. That was his last job. So at the time, professors were not used to staying in one place. They were used to going from job to job to improve their status. And so, he was an assistant professor at Michigan State, and then Mississippi hired him as a full professor. So he jumped a rank, so to speak. And then you know, I always miss Mexico. Even now I miss Mexico. I don't go back very much. But to me, that's just home, you know, or something. I never could get, could develop a love like I have in my heart for Mexico, for any other places where I've lived. Visintainer: What is— Clark: Yes? Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is it that you, what is it that you miss or that has that, that fills that place in your heart when you think of Mexico? Clark: It's hard to describe because when I get together with relatives from down there, I'm immediately at home. You know, it's as if I had never left. And I grew up with a cousin who was my age, and I just hated to leave her so much. She, we were best friends and I always wanted to see her. And I wasn't always able to go back there. And so, you know, I really missed her so much. And just the family relations, the--also Mexico City was so urbane. I always felt like I was kind of in the sticks in the towns that we lived in, in the US. And I would go to Mexico and my cousin was all, you know, she has this hairdo, and I'd say, “What is that?” I've never seen anything like it. Because it was a big city. So you live, it was kind of like being in New York, you know, like a New Yorker living in New York. So, I miss that aspect of it. But I just, I didn't even like Mexican things, you know like Mexican, so-called Mexican food. I never really liked it that much, but as soon as I moved to the US I just, I was missing tortillas. We had to get tortillas--in Michigan, we had to get tortillas in the can. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: And there was no place to go eat anything that was typical. And in my middle school, nobody! Nobody, but nobody spoke Spanish. Not even high school Spanish or anything. So nobody tried to help me out as I was developing. So I was getting used to living there. And I remember that this, the gym class made us, they made us take a shower. And I did not wanna take my clothes off in front of people I did know. Even though they were young girls, but they were strangers. So I did not wanna take my clothes off. So I went to the teacher, tried in my best bad English, tried to explain to her that I didn't wanna take my clothes off in front of my classmates. And she said, “That's too bad. You gotta take a shower. So, you can't just be in gym and then be all sweaty and go back to class.” So I would leave my, my bra and my panties on, and then I would have to go the rest of the day with wet underwear. So, that was just a really bad year for me. (laughs) Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I told my mom, and she finally, you know, I didn't wanna tell my mom I was embarrassed. Finally, she went to talk to the teacher, but she said, “No, no, she has to adjust to the,” you know, it's that mentality that, “No, no, no, she has to adjust.” You know, “Everybody's the same here.” So I had wet underwear the whole year. And in Michigan, that's not pleasant when it's winter. Visintainer: No, that sounds like it would be tough. Clark: Anyway, so that was, and I made friends in Michigan, but I don't know, it wasn't the same. It wasn't my cousins. It wasn't my, you know, I wasn't in the same school as my brother and sister, so that was a bad year for me. And then when we moved to Mississippi everything changed. It was, because Mississippi, believe it or not, the the ethos is more like Mexico (laughs) Because of the stratification, the social stratification. That you were kind of more with middle class people or whatever. And so, I don't know. I hate to say it, because it sounds, you know, I don't wanna admit to anything like that. So anyway, but Oxford was a small town, but it was very friendly, and it was very, they were very welcoming to us. So, everything changed. And that's when I finally started to adjust to living in the US. The people were real characters. Our English teacher in the high school was married to Faulkner's, William Faulkner's best friend. So she was, she was such a character. She would say, “Don't let the lighting bug bite you because you'll never get rid of it.” (laughter) So anyway, so it was, it was a different world. And I finally got used to living there, and I started to miss Mexico a little bit less and less every year. Visintainer: You mentioned that you were learning English when you came to the US if I understood correctly. So— Clark: Yes. I knew a lot of English already, because I had English from the time I was in kindergarten until the eighth grade when I came to the US. So— Visintainer: So you were learning English and kind of in class, I assume, as well as being immersed in the English language. I was curious about your Spanish-language skills. Did you speak Spanish in the home? Clark: Of course. And I never forgot Spanish because I'm a reader, and I just always wanted to keep reading. We--my mother and I went to the library at Michigan State, and we checked out, you know, they had a big collection in Spanish of course. And so I checked out these Argentinian novels, and Colombian novels and everything. So I was always reading something that kept my skills up. I didn't do it on purpose, but I really wanted to stay, keep my Spanish so that when I went back to Mexico, people wouldn't make fun of me. Because they, you know, they said your English, your Spanish starts to get very what they call pocho. Which is, it has a lot of English influence. And I didn't wanna be called pocha. So I kept my Spanish skills as long as I could. And then I majored in French at Ole Miss. I was gonna major in math, but a woman professor who taught third semester calculus said to me, “I know why you're here. You're just looking for a husband.” And she just persecuted me in the class. So I said, “No, who needs this? I don't wanna be in this world.” So I switched to French, and I majored in French. And, and then that's another story, because when I went to--when I applied at KU for graduate school, I was supposed to go in the French department to get my PhD in French. But the department had split that year. It was a romance language department, and it split from Spanish and Portuguese into Spanish and Portuguese and French and Italian. So, they said, “Okay, you go here.” And all of a sudden you had to take all these Spanish classes. And I thought, well, I wonder why, but I'll, I'll take them. And I had taken more classes. They, I got a letter that says, you have to take more Spanish classes. And when I, when I was at Ole Miss, so I took more Spanish classes and I kept taking Spanish lit of different fields. And when I got there and I went to the advisor, he was the chair of the Spanish and Portuguese department, and he said, “You're gonna be teaching Spanish I as a TA (teacher’s assistant), and then you're gonna take these three Spanish classes.” (laughs) So I said, “Well, okay.” (laughter) I didn't, I was twenty you know, what did I know? So, I started taking Spanish classes. And it's a good thing because at the time, French was beginning to decline in demand, and I could never get used to speaking French either. I didn't like to, to say, oh. (laughs) I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't get used to the, the accent. So, I just stayed in Spanish. And that's what since you ask about my skills, they came in handy because I had read a lot of the works already as a kid, and I liked the people in the Spanish department. And that's where I stayed. Visintainer: Yeah, thank you. And I was, I was curious as to, because you went, you ended up, you know, getting your PhD in Spanish, how you kept those skills up being in an environment where outside of your home you didn't necessarily have the opportunity (Visintainer and Clark speaking over each other). Yes. Clark: I met the Cuban when I was my third year of graduate school. And he was in high school. So, his parents were my classmates. And so he was, you know my parents had a fit because he was nineteen. And when we got married, he turned twenty the next day. (laughs) And my parents thought he was gonna, he was too young. He was gonna, you know, leave me after a while. And I, but I thought, “Well, who cares? I'm gonna go for it.” And so, we spoke Spanish at home, and his parents spoke Spanish at, at home. So it was, I got into that other culture. And in fact, I got, I didn't have a Spanish accent when I was in college or with--when I was in high school. But I got, got the Spanish accent after living with Jose for all those years. Because we--and he doesn't have any accent. But anyway, so he came when he was fourteen, and so he had been in the US for five years. So anyway, that's how I ended up staying in the Spanish field. And kind of rediscovering my country through the academic degree. Because I specialize in Mexican literature. I met all these Mexican scholars. And I was in a totally different environment when I got back than I was when I left. I didn't, I only had one aunt who was kind of an academic, but everybody else, you know, they were home. They stayed at home and they didn't, typical Mexican wife role. But I did have an aunt, who had the best collection of Mexican literature that I've ever seen anywhere. And I was trying to get her to leave it to me, but it didn't work out. So. Anyway anything about graduate school, or? Visintainer: Yeah I was, well I was curious when you moved, just to circle back a little bit, when you moved to Lansing. And you moved there, and then you went down south to Mississippi, and you talked about the culture shock. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the culture shock. What you found as you were just starting to adjust to the Midwest. And then you moved to the South, what you found was shocking and the differences in those places. Clark: Well, the school, first of all, most of the schools I went to had all girls. And of course, the school in Michigan was a mixed, you know, boys and girls. And there were things happening. This is the time in the fifties that when education in the US totally did a change, a pivot, you know. Because I read a book called The Lonely Crowd. And it explains what happened in the US in the fifties, that the school systems started to do things very differently than before. For example, instead of having a desk that flipped--that had a lid, so you could keep all your stuff hidden, and private. It started to have these chairs with a, just a paddle where you could write on, and all your stuff was in view for the rest of the world. And they started to put your stuff on the bulletin board, your work on the bulletin board. And that was very alien to me. I had gone to these schools where everything was very regimented, the nuns and the--even I went to a school that was not Catholic. And it did have boys and girls, but it was very regimented. And you had to obey the teacher. You had to, when the teacher came in the room, you stood up. And when you went--were gonna go out, you had to get in single file. And everything was very regimented. And we wore uniforms. Whereas here in the school in Michigan, no uniforms. The classrooms were all like people sitting around tables. What was that? (laughs) Like the Socratic method, all of a sudden. (laughs) And people sitting around these open tables. And so the kid--the boys would put their feet up on the table, and the teacher didn't say anything. We had a science teacher who brought apples to the class. You know, eating in class? Wow. So things like that. And then just kind of a lack of structure at the time in the, in the school when I was used to all that. But at the same time, this kind of a Nazi-- no, I take that back. The gym teacher who says, “No, you will not, you will take a shower.” She wouldn't even let me like, go early and take a quick shower by myself. You know, she didn't wanna make any accommodations. So, I couldn't understand that. I understood authority cause of the nuns, but I don't know. I just--my mom never really followed the conventions. She was always a free spirit. So, in that way, we never had all the regimented things that you find in Mexico. Like my aunt died. Her sister died very young, and she would refuse to wear black. So, all her relatives criticized her. And then all my cousins were saying, “How come you're not wearing black?” So that was something that, you know, I was used to. But in the US there were some other things that some rigidity that I couldn't understand. Anyway, I was thirteen, you know, so that's not a good age to change cultures. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I was kind of, I was a kind of, well-developed thirteen, so the boys were starting to pay attention. But the boys in Mexico were eighteen, for example. You know, people are used to difference in age. And the boys in Michigan were thirteen and they were shorter than I was. And just little boys. So that was also kind of sad because I was beginning to develop, you know, interest in the opposite sex. Plus the schools, you know, they were clannish. So of course, I was not a popular person because I didn't, I didn't speak the language. And I don't, I'm not talking about English, I'm talking about the teenage language, you know. I didn't have a group that I could hang out with. So I was kind of a nerd because I liked math. Then people didn't know where to put me cause I was too nerdish. And then at the same time, I was kind of sophisticated. I was more adult than they were. So it was a difficult time, to find a place there. Visintainer: When do you feel you found your place? Clark: Where? Visintainer: Where, yeah. Where? When? Clark: Kind of in Oxford. Because the girls were really friendly to me. Even the popular girls liked me. And they did the did the best they could to include me in all their activities and all the things that they were doing. And I found a friend there. We're still friends. We still write each other. We used to visit each other, but she was, she was a professor at USC (University of Southern California) and then she moved. She was--her father was a professor also. And this girl was, you know, she was kind of my intellectual equal in a way. She read a lot. She introduced me to a lot of English writers, cause her father was an English professor. And we used to kind of joke, with kind of sophisticated weight. I was--I really thought it was funny that I wish I had some stuff that I wrote when I was that age, because I think we were pretty witty at the time. And so that made me feel good. And she used to buy all these novels at the drugstore, and she would take off the front covers so her mother wouldn't know that they were X-rated (laughs). So, you know, I mean it was a fun time to be with somebody who was my age and was really into that stuff. And so she moved to Massachusetts, unfortunately. So that hit me in the head, because I don't fly anymore. And I don't think she's flying very much either. We're both--I'm gonna be eighty next month, and she's gonna be eighty in December, so we're getting there. So— Visintainer: But you've kept in touch. Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And that was great because she ended up at USC. She started out in Illinois, and then went to Texas, and she ended up at USC. So when she--her husband was at San Diego State, so she was living in La Jolla for a while. And we had to see each other a lot. So we still do a Zoom conversation once in a while. So that was, she contributed a lot to that. And then I have another friend that I stay in touch with who lives in Alabama. But we still stay in touch and they're Democrats (laughs). And then I had another friend who passed away two years ago. So, those three friends were great, and we were close. And so I didn't feel lonely anymore. I didn't date anybody until I was almost a freshman in college. I just wasn't attractive to guys, to the--I wasn't a southern bell. So I wasn't appealing to guys because I didn't just go and bat my eyelashes at anybody. I didn't know how to flirt at the time. Visintainer: Well and you needed you needed to find your group. Clark: Right. Visintainer: Yeah. So then you, you go to Lawrence (Kansas) after you graduated? Clark: Yes. Just, you know, my dad told me--asked me when I was a senior in high school, “Where is it that you wanna get your PhD?” (Laughs) He didn't even ask me, “Are you gonna get a PhD?” No. He says, “Where is it that you're going for your PhD?” So I, I'm one of those people who takes the first offer I get. I didn't take the first offer for marriage that I got, but I did take the first offer for graduate school. I took the first offer for the first job, for my first job. And then, the Cal State San Marcos job was kind of a first offer in the sense that it was new place. So anyway, I just I applied to places and I liked the--as I said, I was in French, so I applied at the University of Kansas because they had a good French department. So I got, it really appealed to me that, to study French at KU. And then I ended up studying Spanish. So. Visintainer: And so you came to KU and then you met Jose. And, so how did you meet Jose? Clark: Well, his parents were my classmates. Visintainer: That's right. Clark: And there was a party--this is a weird story too. There was a party, some Venezuelans, they--KU has an amazing number of programs with Latin America. I mean, just, you wouldn't believe it. And they had a program, with a Ford Foundation program to bring Venezuelan engineers to Kansas. So, my mother-in-law was the secretary to this project. And they invited her to a big party. And so her husband, who was also my classmate, and he was kind of a, had a roving eye. He had a crush on my roommate. So, he invited both of us so he could get to dance with my roommate. And then he went to Jose and said, “Hey, you know, I'm really interested in this girl. Would you mind dancing with the roommate?” (laughs) Who was me, “So that I can dance with Judy.” And so, he came and asked me to dance. And so, I thought, “Oh, how great.” Cause he was very good looking. And we just hit it off and we danced all night at that party. And at five in the morning his parents invited me to go have cognac in their--at their apartment. So, you know, we just started to see each other. But he was nineteen, and he looked like he was younger. So I thought, I'm really robbing the cradle big time, so I better stop this. So, I asked him point blank, how old are you? Because by this time, we had seen each other a couple of times, and he said, nineteen. And I thought, whew, you know, he's not underage (laughs). And also, you know, this is okay, we're having fun. No big deal. But we realized, you know, it was a lot more serious than we thought. So, we met--that was the Thanksgiving weekend of 1966. And we got married in (19)67 in August the next year. So, we didn't have a very long courtship. And what really speared that forward was that he was living with his parents in this duplex. And his grandmother was getting out of Cuba. You know, they were, they were Cuban refugees from the Castro regime. So, grandma was getting out and she had to share his bedroom, Jose's bedroom. So, I said, well, we couldn't live together. The department was very conservative, and I would've lost my assistantship if we had moved in together. It sounds hard to believe that people think in those terms now, but they were very, very conservative. So, I thought I didn't wanna jeopardize my studies. And so, we said, “Well, what do we do? We break up or we get married, you know, either one.” And so, he was just starting his freshman year anyway, so I said, “Well, I think we ought to break up because this is not--it's not viable.” I was living in this little apartment and, anyway I was making $240 a month, and I wasn't gonna marry somebody who didn't have any income. And his parents were students also. Cause when you got out of Cuba, no matter how much money you have, you have to get out with the clothes on your back. And his mother was a journalist, but she had, who came from a wealthy family, but she had to go work in a donut shop in Miami when they first came, got out of Cuba. So we didn't have any money, none of us. So I said, “Well, you know I don't know if we should get married. This is too serious. It's too soon.” And then, so then he gives me his grandmother's wedding band, and he says, “I'm serious. I really wanna marry you.” So we decided, okay, let's go ahead. And we got married and he got a job working in the language lab. And in the--at the library. (laughs) So we were living on like, with $350 a month. But we were living okay, you know? We discovered, yeah, we can make it go. And my parents came around and they really liked him, and they ended up just loving him to death, you know? So that was, that was a good thing. Even though a lot of people talked to us and said, “Don't do it. It's too soon.” Including the guy who married us was his speech professor. And he said, “Well, I'm not gonna marry you guys until I talk to you quite a bit.” So we had to go to his house many times. So he would give us--he was a Methodist minister, as well as being a professor on campus. And he talked to us a lot. And finally he says, “Yeah, I think you're gonna do okay.” And so, he married us. We had a very plain, very simple wedding in his parents' duplex. We invited friends who were also graduate students. They brought food. It was kind of a potluck. And here we are, fifty-six years later. Visintainer: It was a good start then. Clark: Yeah. That's been, to me, that's been the best part of my life is, you know, having Jose next to me for fifty-six years. Most of our lives. Anyway, so that was KU. I got my PhD in Spanish in ‘71. Like everybody else, I had to apply to a million places for a job. And I had, San Bernardino sounded really good to me because it was in California. I had my best friend, my best friend at KU was teaching there already. She had gotten her PhD at Ohio State, and she'd gotten hired at San Bernardino. We could have been done the same time, but I just, I wasn't in any hurry because Jose was not, wasn't graduating until ‘71. Oh, sorry. (laughs) Visintainer: No, you're fine. Clark: Tell me if I'm giving you too much information. Visintainer: No, no, no. It's really interesting. I'm happy you're sharing and thank you for sharing. So, Jose was graduating in 1971, so you had some time to kind of figure out your next steps. Clark: Yes. We didn't know what he was gonna do. So, he applied to graduate schools and he got accepted at UC Irvine. So we were happily planning for that. at And of course, I had to stay in San Bernardino cause I've never been a good driver. So, he was gonna drive to Irvine to go to graduate school there. But he thought the drive was a little bit too long. And we weren't used to commuting and all that California life. So he applied at the library at Cal State San Bernardino. They had a temporary job, and it was perfect. He just loved it. So, he started working there. And that was ironic because there were a lot of jobs that I didn't take because--that I didn't pursue, because they were always asking me, “What's your husband gonna do? What's he gonna work at?” And so they would turn off because he didn't, he was--didn't have a job yet. And I was also childbearing age, and a lot of people didn't wanna hire you. I won't mention a couple of universities that I got approached by. And according to my professors, I had a really good chance to get--go there. But they were worried about Jose. So ironically, he started working where I worked. And then he got another job since that was only, that was temporary. The funds for that dried up. And so, the University of Redlands hired him. The library there. And he loved it. But I said, “No, you better get your degree because you can't be, just be a clerk all the time.” So he started going to USC and very slowly, and finally I said, “No, you just quit whatever you're doing and finish your degree, because that's the only way you're gonna have a career out of being a librarian.” And at sure enough, it worked out so well because he's loved that career. And it's kept us on an even keel, always. Because my career sometimes was high pressure ‘cause I did some administrative work along the way. And so he, it was always good to have him in this job that he loved. And that wasn't super high pressure until he got in the county. And then that turned out to be very high pressure because he was--he became a supervisor. And that's, you know, anytime you go into administration, that's it for you because you start leaving the job that you love and doing a job that pays better, but gives you a little more prestige. But-- (laughs). Visintainer: Yep. It's very true. Well, as at a librarian, I'm very happy that Jose was able to find his avocation in our vocation. Clark: I know. And it's, you know, librarian is such an interesting, has such an interesting opportunity to do all kinds of different things. So that he's found that, and he's always worked with women really well, you know, because so many women are in the library. And I work with men really well. So, we compliment each other because we're not jealous people who think, “Oh, you're gonna be with this person.” You know, I just always hung out with guys in my profession. And he's always gotten along with women and met--made really good friends in both areas. Visintainer: Yeah. And to circle back a little bit to coming to CSU San Bernardino, you mentioned at that you had wanted to go to California, and I was curious as to what was the draw for California as opposed to other parts of the United States? Clark: Well, California has always had really good press, maybe until now that the states are so divided. But it always, it was always like paradise, if you wanna go to paradise in the US, go to California. And they show you all these orange groves and this beautiful weather and the ocean. And it was just, it just has a good ethos, you know? So I always really wanted to go to California. My parents ended up in Florida. I never had any desire to go to Florida, and for any, every reason in the world. But somehow California just seemed like this paradise. And also, you know, LA. Wow. San Francisco. (laughs) My dad lived in San Francisco many years, and he was always talking about San at Francisco being such a great place. And then LA with Hollywood and, you know, just sounded like--plus the proximity to Mexico. You know, I always kept thinking, “Well, if I'm in California, I can always cross the border.” You know, I always felt kind of uneasy when I felt--when I lived really far from the border. Which is ironic because now I never get down there (laughs) you know, just. But I did find some relatives who live in Tijuana, so that's been great. You know, they come to visit. And, it's really good to keep track of my family that way. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: I found them on Facebook of all places (laughs). Visintainer: So Facebook has some, has some good things about it. Clark: Yeah. (laughs) Visintainer: You can connect people. So you came to, so what was the decision to leave CSU San Bernardino at and come to San Marcos? Clark: Well, when I was about three or four years before I left there, I discovered that I'd like to be an administrator. Because the Dean of Humanities left, and he asked me if I would be his replacement. So even though it was a really hard job, because he didn't look after any budgets. I mean, he was just so, he was a wild, loose, kind of a loose cannon. And I had to go, and as one colleague told me, I had to go shovel a lot of cages at the zoo when I took over that job. But I loved that job. So, it was an interim job. I had it for two years, and then I, when I applied for the permanent job, I didn't get it. at So, I thought, “Well I, but I wanna do this.” So I started applying different places for dean's jobs. And I got, I did pretty well in the market, but it just wasn't appealing to me to go for several reasons. I had been in San Bernardino for nineteen years. I was used to the good weather. And so this, the Cal State San Marcos thing came up and he said, “You know, you start the, a program from scratch. Start the department from scratch.” And so I talked to people about it, and they, I said, “What do you do?” And says, “Oh, you can hire the kind of people that you want. You can go after the kind of faculty that you want. You can create the kind of curriculum that you want that you find is good. You can do a lot of stuff. It's, it's a huge opportunity.” So, I applied at for it, and sure enough, I got the job. So it was--I moved kind of laterally because I had tenure there. I was a full professor. But I had no idea of all the horrendous amount of work that you have to do when you start a program. And, I probably wouldn't do it again. And my dad had done that in Florida, and he said, “Oh, be careful, because it's so much work.” And I just, you know, I just went in there thinking, “Well, how bad can it be?” And it was pretty bad (laughs) because I had to work year-round. And it was one thing after the other. I'll give you an example. Marion Ried (Dean of the University Library) came up to at me and she was in charge of some funds that were assigned to the university. I don't know why they put her in charge of that. But anyway, she says, “You know, there's $150,000 earmarked for a language lab, and if you don't spend it,” this is in April when she talked to me, “If you don't spend it by the end of June, Bill Stacy's gonna take it.” He was the (university) president. “He's gonna just take it and spend it on something else because it’s gonna become available to the whole campus.” And I said, “We can't have a language department without a language lab. No way.” So, I had to go buy a language lab, and I had from April to end of June to do that. Well, how do you do that? Visintainer: Yeah, where did you begin? Clark: Yeah. I was lucky enough that the San Bernardino campus had redone its language lab, and they had formed a committee and they had, you know, interviewed different lab companies. And they had decided what kind of lab they wanted. And they already had the infrastructure though. And I had to start from zero. So I went to talk to the guy who ran that lab. Fortunately, he was somebody that I had supervised, and he just loved me. So he gave me all kinds of information and all kinds of help about what some of the pitfalls would be. And I picked that lab that, it was a Norwegian company, something like that. Norwegian, I think Norwegian. And I had to come up with a sole-source justification in just a little bit of time, because there was another company that was saying, “Why didn't you pick us? Why didn't you buy our lab?” And then I was lucky because I got two faculty who came, and they were very versed on the--they came from UC Irvine, and they had learned how the lab can be used as a teaching tool. And it was, you know, they had done workshops and they had done all kinds of stuff. And that's one of the reasons that I picked them to come be our next faculty. Because they had learned so much about what a language lab does other than just be an aide. Electronic aid, you know, technology aid. And it was a married couple. They both came together. And so she was the, she was doing all the all the software kind of stuff, and he was doing all the hardware kind of stuff. So, I was lucky that way that I--but I also see that as part of a, you know, being hired with experience. Because if I had been hired out of graduate school, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that. And so, because I came with having chaired the department, having been a dean, and when you're Dean of Humanities, you deal with a lot of equipment. Because I had the arts under my supervision. And I had to deal with lots of interesting types of equipment. So it worked out. But it was a very tough two years. I was in, at one point, I was in like thirty-five hiring committees. Visintainer: Wow! Clark: And one of those committees was for literature, the literature department, which was called English at the time. We had eight hundred applicants for one position. Visintainer: Wow. Clark: So, you had to learn how to, you know, how to process stuff very quickly. And so, and also I had learned how to deal with administrators, higher administrators, to negotiate for things. So I was a little bit more informed as to how to deal with things. Because a lot of the faculty don't, they don't deal with anybody. They just go on, they do their great teaching and they do their research, but they don't they're not used to wheeling and dealing, for example. And so I learned very quickly that the first best, the people who got the best things, were wheelers and dealers in the faculty. I learned from some of my colleagues very well because you don't just get things by saying, “Yes, I accept the job. I'll be there this day. When do I start working?” You have to say, you know, “What, how much office space am I gonna get (laughs)? How much--what is gonna be my budget for traveling and for hiring? And how many faculty am I gonna have in five years? When you had to start that kind of thing. And in a way, I was not that good when I first came, but I learned very quickly. Very, very quickly you learned that. So that's what brought me to San Marcos wasn't the weather like a lot of people (laughs). It was the opportunity of starting a new department. And that was really interesting. But ironically, my ideal colleague--I was able to hire this guy. He was just wonderful. But he hated California. He couldn't, he couldn't live away from his mom. And so he left after two years. But I did get some of the other faculty that I think are ideal and wonderful. They're still here. Visintainer: That's good. So what was your vision when you started the department? Clark: Well, I wanted to, I wanted to have a major that would give the students the opportunity to go in different directions and to get lots of skills without having to, you know, because a lot of the majors are very academic. And I love the--I love that, but it doesn't give them many tools like to be teachers or to be like, go to work in business. And so I wanted to major that would be, that would help students be very versatile. And they could go in lots of different fields. And I think I accomplished that. Our major was, there were only two of us working on the major at the beginning, and it got accepted by the chancellor's office on the first meeting, you know. Because we came up with this modular plan, and also just wanted to hire a lot of faculty that I would love to work with. That was my vision as the harmonious department, because if people don't get along--and I came from a lot of programs where people didn't get along at all. Visintainer: That's really interesting. Cause yeah., cause there's a lot of at times disharmony in academia. Clark: Oh yeah! Visintainer: And in some ways, you know, for a good reason because there's a lot of debate and thought that has to go into things. But— Clark: I mean, a department is made up of a whole bunch of prima donnas. Visintainer: Yeah. (laughs) So how did you go about building harmony in a department, in your department? Clark: I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. You just have a feel for people. And I was, I just use my instincts a lot. And so I try to get people to apply that I knew were very easy to work with, that love to work with you, that no matter what you ask of them, they would do it. But the guy who came with me, the first guy, we went too far because he never said no to anybody. And at some point he burned out. But he was good to work with. I mean, he was good to be here the first two years. Unfortunately, he passed away not too long ago. But, anyway he--so I just, I just had a feeling that people who were my friends, besides being my colleagues. And I knew a lot of people, you know. I had--they applied a lot of people from different areas applied here because I went, I worked a long time for grading the Advanced Placement (AP) exam. So, I had a huge network because those, you meet people every year, and you get to know each other. And so that's what it was, just, you know--and then what my big goal was always to help people thrive. And not put any obstacles in their development. And one of my professors at KU said, because I, my dissertation was kind of weird. And then I said, “You know, I'm surprised that, that you approved it, because I know that it is very unconventional approach to literature.” And he said, “Look, to me, your dissertation is your beginning work. If I'm gonna consider that your master work, then you're in trouble. Because this is what's gonna kick you into the field and into the academic world.” And I did have a professor who didn't wanna approve it, and these guys kind of rallied. And they said, “We couldn't, you couldn't take it out of the building to read it.” And so, he refused to go to read it in the building. Visintainer: What, so what--what was weird about your dissertation? Clark: Well, it was a very like a very close reading of some works. Very, very close. I was using a method that was kind of controversial at the time. It was called the--what is it called? My head is not working anymore. But anyway, you, if you read a work very closely, you analyze, you know like even stylistic patterns in something. You can kind of make conclusions that are much broader about the work then you can if you approach it from the outside and just look at the--look at it from a bird's eye view. Like if you read something and you say, the plot is this and the blah, blah, blah. But if you’re really close, read closely and about all the language used in it and everything. And some people at the time didn't like that method. It was an, it was a method followed by some English writers, American writers. It was an American thing. But I applied it to Mexican literature. So, a lot of people thought that was, it was stupid that it didn't lead you anywhere. And this writer that I went--that I wrote on, had been written on by a lot of people. And so this guy who didn't wanna pass me said, “Where's the, where's the biography of this writer? Where's the list of the his works? You don't learn anything about the guy.” I said, “No, no, no. I don't wanna learn about the guy. I wanna learn about the worlds he's creating in his works. You know, what kind of world is he creating with the use of this language?” And so it was--you know, some people thought it was too weird or maybe it didn't go far enough out. You know, it was not a universal thing. But it was, I was kind of following a method by an anthropologist (Claude) Lévi-Strauss, you know. Have you heard of Lévi-Strauss? Visintainer: I have not. Clark: Anyway, he studied people by patterns of--I'm losing my train of thought here. He studied people by the patterns in their culture, not coming from you know, the outside and saying, “Oh, they do this, they eat at this time.” But it's following very, very specific things that they did. Anyway. So it worked for me and, and I learned a lot about analyzing literature. And so that helped me in my teaching. So, whereas this guy, the professor who didn't wanna pass me, pass my dissertation. Well he--I had a course from him and he ordered ten books. It was gonna, it was Romanticism in Spain, okay. Romanticism in literature in Spain. And he started with the eighteenth century before Romanticism. And he gave us so much stuff about the eighteenth century, he never got to Romanticism. So I returned all the books without reading them because he never got to the subject. And so that's, I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I said, “I wanna read the works, I wanna see what the work is itself, and I don't care if the author was, you know, if he was gay, if he was an idiot, I don't care. I wanna see what he left behind.” So it was very close text reading, textual reading. And some people didn't appreciate that. So. But it served me well. Lemme tell you, I use that method throughout my career and it really helped. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I'm still reading like that. I don't read as much anymore, but I'm still kind of, “Oh look, this word he uses here.” Anyway, any more questions? Visintainer: Yeah. Could we circle back to the kind of the founding of the department? Clark: Yes. Visintainer: And I was just curious, what do you think was your, like your biggest challenge in those early years in founding the department, and coming on board at CSUSM? Clark: Oh, I don't wanna say. Visintainer: (Laughs) Well, you don't have, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Clark: No, no. Because, because this campus developed very--I came from a very organized campus. And most people didn’t wanna realize that this was a CSU campus. They thought they were gonna create something from scratch that was brand new. And there are all these people who came from these different backgrounds, like faculty who came from liberal stu--liberal arts colleges, from big research universities. And I said, “This is a Cal State, people. We, that doesn't mean we have to look down on anybody, but it's, we have to be real about who the students are gonna be, and then what they need to learn.” So, ‘cause I've always been kind of an elitist in my, in my own mind, but not when it comes to educating students. I think, you know, you really need to consider the fact that people come from backgrounds that maybe aren't, they're not up to here academically, but they're very bright people. So just look at them, look at their interests, look at their--what they wanna learn. And I always love the Cal States because people pay for their own education. People pay for their, you know, they’re often the first person in their family to go to college. They work forty hours a week to go to college. They have children, they have other interests. They have jobs, they have parents. If you come from a Latino family, you know, you have to take care of your parents. They have husbands who don't want them to study. There's machismo there. You know, a big, big obstacle for Latina women. Anyway, just look at the students that we get, and don't look down on them. Look at what the possibilities are with these people because they're, they wanna learn. They're here because they want to be, not because, you know like when my last class at KU was on Friday, it would meet Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon. And sometimes on a Friday, I wouldn't have anybody showing up. Even though they knew that it counted, that I took off for absences. They just didn't care, you know, because they were gonna go into daddy's business, or they were gonna go into their uncle’s (business), you know, these people who they just weren't interested. And so, I said, that's what I love about the Cal State, is it has such a mission of, like now it's right in line with us because of the upward mobility. Because I was lucky that I didn't have to think about that, ‘cause I had parents who were educated. I always had books in my house. I always had. But these people who are, they've never seen a book in their house. They don't even get a magazine. And all of a sudden they have to, they have all these things thrown at them, but they wanna learn. So, I always had a lot of respect for the Cal State system for that reason. And a lot of my colleagues just, it makes me sad that they think the students are not up to par, blah, blah, blah. But it's, I've always loved the state universities because they want to educate the masses. And I love, I love for the masses to learn! And I like to be in the trenches. So that was why I didn't wanna leave the system. At the same time, you know, I yearned for these people who, like my friend, the USC friend, she’s taught--she's had years when she taught five or six student graduate students. And that's her whole teaching load. Where my advisor who had a chair at KU and he could just go. He went through South America traveling one year and left us in his house, to house sit for them. And, just visiting different universities and different libraries and doing research all over the place for his book. And he didn't have to teach a single class in two years. So I yearn for that, but at the same time, I like the idea of seeing people. And I still have people who, you know, look me up. Visintainer: That's impact. Clark: My students have retired already. Some of my students, my first students from San Bernardino. Yeah this one woman, she tracked me down here, and every year she and her husband come to visit us for when they come on vacation. And she's a retired teacher already. So it's, you know, it's very sad how some people don't care. Once the students leave, that's it. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there's definitely an ethos that comes from--that comes from being at a teaching university and embracing it and— Clark: Right. Visintainer: Great things that it can do for social mobility and upward mobility. And I appreciated you mentioning and talking about our students. And that kind of had me spur a question that I wanted to ask you. And was, what do you think was the big takeaway that you've learned from our students over the years? Clark: That they want, they want to learn and that they want to prosper. And very often their circumstances do not allow them to prosper, and do not allow them to learn. Many, many people I had to--I had a husband one time coming from a student who was in a couple of my classes, and he said, “I wanna come and sit in your classes cause I wanna watch my wife and make sure she doesn't talk to any guys.” I said, “No, you're not welcome there, because you're not a student and you're there for the wrong reasons.” So, I was worried that she was gonna get the brunt of that, but she eventually left that guy. But he would sabotage her learning. And I think, you know, and she kept going. She kept going. And I had another one here on this campus who, she was regularly beaten by her husband because she wasn't--she didn't have the food cooked when she, you know, she was in class and she didn't have the meal prepared. And so she's--but she went ahead and got her master's degree somehow. And I think the students are very resilient and they work very hard to make it. They don't, of course there are a lot of deadbeats too, but that doesn't--they're everywhere. But the majority of the students, I mean, I ask in class, I never had to work as a waitress or anything like that, you know. And I asked in my class one time, “What, how many of you're working?” And I would say, I would calculate like eighty percent raised their hands. And I said, “How many of you work more than twenty hours a week?” And most of them raise their hands again. Whereas, you know, I got to work in the language lab, I got--but that was for my extras. You know, my dad said, “If you want this and that, if you wanna buy records or if you wanna buy this.” But we didn't have to go to work. And we had a home that supported doing homework. And my mom wasn't around completely. But anyway. It was good. I had a good upbringing in that sense, and I wanted the students to get help that way. So I did a few things that weren't, didn't mean very much but for example, when I went to Mexico City you can buy books. Like you can buy literature in the newsstands for like fifty cents a book or something. So, I would buy if I knew I was gonna use the book in my class, if you order it from, well now Amazon, but if you order it from a bookstore, they'd have to pay like ten dollars for that book. And I would buy all these books for fifty cents and then bring them back and say, “If you can't afford the books, come and see me.” So, they would come, sometimes very ashamed. But I said, “Don't be, don't be embarrassed. Just, you know, just come and see me.” And I’d say, “Okay, you can use this book. Use it in the class. If you really like it and you wanna keep it for your library, you can keep it. If you don't wanna keep it, just give it back to me.” And they would always keep it, because they were building a library. That was so cool. And then all my books, when my mother died, all her books came to me. And there were duplicates of a lot of stuff I had. So I took them to the office and I said to the graduate students, “Take anything you want.” And now we're, fortunately we get to leave things to the campus. We're fortunate that we're--we decided to leave our estate to the campus. Because we want to, we want students to prosper in any way they can. And sometimes it's just a question of a thousand dollars that's gonna put them over the edge. I wish we had millions, but we don't. So. Visintainer: Well that's, that's wonderful to be able to leave something to foster student success in the future. Clark: Yeah. Because I have a family, but they can look after themselves, they've had good opportunities. And, we don't have kids. So we're not responsible for anybody in particular. So, I don't wanna make, I don't wanna tire you because I've been talking so much about myself (laughs). Visintainer: No, no, you're fine. Well, we can, we can certainly look towards wrapping things up. I've enjoyed talking with you. I did wanna--I did want to ask you kind of a wrap up question. Is that, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you that I didn't? Clark: Not really. I think, I can just go ahead and talk forever about all this. It's an eighty-year-old life, so eighty years of being on this earth, that's a long time. And so there’s things that I don't remember at all. And the things that I remember so vividly, and when I went to see Roma (2018 film), I just cried throughout the whole movie. Bought it on Netflix, but I just--I cried and cried, and cried the whole movie. Because he captures that neighborhood so well. And he, there's a documentary that where he explains how he captured that neighborhood. And he was really meticulous about every single thing, like those little soldiers at parade every morning. I mean, there were details like that, that I've never seen in a movie before. And also because Mexico City always looks like a, this gray place with dirt, dirt streets and everything. And here's this guy who is just--captures the neighborhood that I grew up in. I mean, what are the chances? Because most people show you the tourist view of Mexico City. And so that's what, that's what I miss. It's like the daily noises, and the daily routines, and the kind of house that it is and the maid. Very sad because we did have a couple of maids, like the--like this girl, they would come and knock on your door and say they were there from Oaxaca and did you have any, did you have any work for them? And my mother took, did take a couple of people like that. We didn't have any money at the time, but anyway, she did take a couple of these girls. And they didn't even speak Spanish, these poor girls. So that just--that really got me, that movie. And so I always tell people, if you wanna get to know me, watch that movie. But I don't, I'm not the maid. I'm the, I'm the person from the señora, you know? Because the grandma didn't even know her name. And then I kept thinking, I didn't know any of these girl's names. I didn't know where they came from. And when she has a baby, and they take her to the hospital, says, “What's her name?” And she doesn't even know her name. Because there's, it's another world that I never got to know. And I used to think, “Oh, Oaxaca, that has to be the scum of the earth.” And, and I fell in love with Oaxaca the first time I went there. It kind of shows you that you don't, you never appreciate your own world until you're out of it. Visintainer: Yeah I, you know, as somebody who did not grow up in Roma but I saw the movie, I thought it was an amazing, just an amazing creation of space. And I didn't know if it was you know, how particularly accurate it was or not. So, it's nice to hear that it really spoke to you on an emotional and memory level. Clark: Yeah. There, this little scene, there's a scene when the guy leaves her (Cleodegaria "Cleo" Gutiérrez, main character of Roma), she says she's pregnant and the guy leaves her, and she's sitting on the steps of this movie theater. And there are all these noises because people go outside of the movie theater, they're selling a lot of stuff. Little toys and everything. And she's just surrounded by all these noises and she's just sitting there in her loneliness, you know? And here's the interesting cultural thing is that nobody goes to the movies on Sundays, except the maids and their boyfriends and, you know, the domestic help. That's when they go to the movies, and they go see Mexican movies. The middle class goes to see the American movies first run, you know. And they go during the week or on the week--on Saturday, but not on Sunday afternoon, belongs to the servants. So it's an upstairs/downstairs world that most people don't realize. And, so it's kind of hard to also to explain that to people that, you may not have anything in common who is from Mexico. There are people from Mexico that I have absolutely nothing in common with. Cause they were brought up--we had a cleaning lady, and she would not, she invited us to her house on her birthday. She would not sit down with us to eat, even though it was her birthday. And I knew. I understood it. And I, we didn't insist on anything, because she would not sit down with us to eat. So that's--it's a different world that is very hard to explain to people. And, so that's another challenge for me that I live in two worlds in my head. I've got one foot here and one foot there and they never come together. Visintainer: And I think that that's probably an experience for folks that move from country to country or even within countries. Clark: Exiles. Yeah. People who have grown up somewhere else. And, who was I talking to about that the other day? It was very interesting because we were saying because I--oh, I have a lot of, most of my friends are really from someplace else (laughs). Even though, not on purpose, they're faculty on campus. But, I was looking at my, one of my Zumba classes. There was nobody born in the US in that Zumba class. I don't know. I kept seeing, maybe there was one person. But there was a woman from Colombia, there was a woman from Japan, another one from Puerto Rico. Well, Puerto Rico's US, but they have another culture. And so it was just so strange that we're exiles and we do have a common denominator, but that never reaches you the most in the deepest way. You always have, you always have this farness. Visintainer: And I, yes. I wanted to share that I lived in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas- Clark: Oh, you did? Visintainer: And, yeah. And when I was there, you know, I had somebody tell me what they thought of the Valley, and I thought it was really interesting in that that he said, “It's a liminal place. It's a place that's not quite Texas, it's not quite Mexico.” It exists in its own way and with its own rules and its own identity. And that causes, in some ways, for folks that live in the Rio Grande Valley, that sense of displacement when they’re in other places because they don't feel quite--and I'm speaking in generalities but, you know, there's a feeling of not quite being Texas, not quite being the US, not quite being Mexico all wrapped into its own place and culture. That was really interesting. And, and I really— Clark: Yeah, I really wanna visit with you sometime and hear more about you, so. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, we can get together and chat, but this is not about me, and I just went on a tangent. I apologize. (laughs) Clark: I know, I know. No. No, but it's good. It's good. So well, thank you for the interview and I hope I didn't leave anything major out. But if I did, give me a call or send me an email because, you know how I'm always willing to talk about myself. (laughs) Visintainer: Sure, sure. Well I really appreciate you chatting with me today, Stella. And I'm gonna pause recording and then, and then we can wrap up with anything else. Clark: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with CSUSM. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. In her interview, Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-46 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Bernadino California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department Education, Higher Immigrants -- United States Kansas University Mexican Americans -- California -- San Diego County Mexican Americans -- Education (Higher) Mexicans -- United States Roma (Motion picture : 2018) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stella Clark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) East Lansing (Mich.) Lawrence (Kan.) Oxford (Miss.) San Bernadino (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Stella Clark CSUSM history Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bonnie Biggs OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. SC027-055 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Tribal libraries--Southern California ; Tribal libraries--New Mexico ; Libraries--Ghana ; Love on a Leash ; Patterson, Lotsee ; American Indian Library Association ; California Indians ; Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 ; Jazz-Ghana ; Jazz musicians--Ghana ; California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison ; California State University San Marcos. University Library Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Judith Downie audio 1.0:|21(7)|41(9)|69(10)|94(12)|108(12)|138(11)|153(11)|167(16)|191(5)|206(5)|227(12)|244(14)|265(3)|299(15)|331(9)|346(12)|382(8)|401(11)|419(15)|431(7)|443(9)|466(6)|501(6)|528(4)|544(6)|558(5)|582(12)|612(3)|650(16)|673(5)|687(14)|710(5)|728(16)|743(16)|763(3)|777(5)|806(3)|820(8)|833(10)|857(14)|884(10)|915(9)|938(8)|966(10)|1006(17)|1032(3)|1054(6)|1094(6)|1140(5)|1162(11)|1188(3)|1217(14)|1251(2)|1279(7)|1320(8)|1347(14)|1364(4)|1375(12)|1394(10)|1431(7)|1463(6)|1489(6)|1514(3)|1530(15)|1544(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/61a0275718a0293965abb1d4b9d1ca5e.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction and educational backgrounds Oral history interview with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs, March 26, 2024. Interview by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at CSUSM. &#13 ; &#13 ; Bonnie Biggs and Gunnar Biggs discuss their educational backgrounds and how they met. 0 160 Early professional and CSUSM history Bonnie Biggs recalls working as a public librarian in Encinitas and Solana Beach while gaining her Master's from USC. After this, she began working as an academic librarian at the SDSU North County satellite campus that would become CSUSM in 1989. Biggs recalls the various professional relationships she cultivated, and the "chaos" in transitioning SDSU to CSUSM. 0 1024 County and Tribal library cooperation In this segment, Bonnie Biggs discusses her role in facilitating cooperation between the San Diego County and Tribal libraries after the dissolution of their working relationship. This included American Indian culture fairs before the establishment of Powwows at CSUSM and most importantly gaining the trust of local Indigenous communities. In the end of this segment, Biggs and Judith Downey discuss the importance of archives in preserving, documenting, and maintaining valuable historical information. 0 1392 Powwows Before powwows were sanctioned at CSUSM, there were American Indian culture fairs. Bonnie Biggs briefly explains the necessities and process of facilitating these social gatherings for Indigenous American communities. Biggs also discusses meeting "Uncle" Henry Rodriguez, a Luiseño elder, culture bearer, and water rights activist who was a crucial to CSUSM in building the university's relationships with local tribes. 0 1759 Tenure and second sabbatical Regarding her second sabbatical, Bonnie Biggs shares her experience working with the Pueblo peoples in New Mexico. She recalls how she met her mentor Dr. Lotsee Patterson (Comanche), founder of the American Indian Library Association, who was instrumental for securing the trust of Tribal communities, and access to Tribal libraries. 0 2057 Academic Senate and Tribal Liaison This segment covers the time Bonnie Biggs served aboard the Academic Senate as vice chair for four years. Biggs shares that she chose not to serve as chair, despite being elected, and instead accepted President Karen Haynes's request to serve as the university's inaugural Tribal Liaison. Biggs considers this one of her most important accomplishments as she was able to build a trusting relationship between CSUSM and tribal communities in Southern California. Biggs also discussed founding the Native Advisory Council alongside Wendy Schlater (Luiseño). 0 2485 Therapy dogs Regarding other "firsts" at CSUSM, Bonnie recalls bringing therapy dogs to campus, and how helpful they are to not only students but staff, faculty, and administrators. A brief segment, Downey transitions to then speaking about Biggs's first sabbatical. 0 2568 First sabbatical in Ghana Narrator Downey circles back to Bonnie Biggs's first sabbatical in Ghana. Both Gunnar and Bonnie Biggs recall working with Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM and Director of the National Theater of Ghana. Gunnar recalls his experience sharing jazz knowledge as well as learning Ghanian drumming, while Bonnie recounts going on national radio to speak about the similarities between indigenous libraries in Ghana and tribal libraries in the USA. 0 2980 Additional CSU accomplishments Bonnie Biggs shares some of her other accomplishments at the CSU level, including work with the American Library Association. Bonnie once again discusses therapy dogs, through her work with Love on a Leash, as well as her continued work with the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center at CSUSM. Finally, Bonnie and Gunnar share their culminating statements regarding their appreciation for CSUSM. 0 Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-- Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie ; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University ; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twenty-year gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-- Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-- G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transition- B Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world and- Downie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-- B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-- B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-- Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that. I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-- Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-- B Biggs: Crossing lines-- Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-- Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-- B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-- Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-- B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-- B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-- Downie: Marion got oral histories from-- B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-- B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-- Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-- G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-- B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-- G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-- B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-- B Biggs: I remember that now. Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-- G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-- G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez ; Native American water rights activist ; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-- Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-- Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-- Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-- B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a two-night trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-- Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). And- B Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-- G Biggs: Find that picture-- B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, so- Downie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter ; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-- Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying to- G Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-- G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-- B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue ; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-- Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-- B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-- B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-- Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-- B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-- Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-- G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer ; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-- B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris ; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes ; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-- B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-- Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-- G Biggs: LAFS- B Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-- Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So-- B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-- G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-- G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-- B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-- Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-- B Biggs: Not that many of them-- Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-- G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-- G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-- G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-- Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-- G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-- G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-- G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-- B Biggs: For all the arts-- G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-- B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-- G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-- B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-- B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-- B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-- G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-- B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-- G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-- B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-- Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-- Downie: It morphed into something different-- Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-- Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-- B Biggs: Yes, yes-- Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-- B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-- B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-- G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-- B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-- G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-- B Biggs: They go-- G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-- B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-- G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-- G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-- B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-- B Biggs: Yeah, it was-- G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it was- G Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-- B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-- Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-- B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-- B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-- B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-- Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-- Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC ; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-- B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-- B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-- G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-- Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-- Downie: Because-- B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-- Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-- Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-- B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-- B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-055 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joanne Tawfilis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. SC027-052 01:11:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Military base closures ; United States. Army ; United States. Navy ; Muramid Arts Center (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Mural painting and decoration ; Bosnian Women's Initative ; Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 ; Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina ; International Atomic Energy Agency ; Unesco ; Art Miles Project Joanne Tawfilis Linda Kallas mp4 1.0:|18(13)|37(10)|52(10)|63(18)|75(9)|88(4)|102(6)|112(4)|126(7)|138(9)|149(7)|159(14)|169(10)|188(12)|198(5)|208(14)|218(3)|227(14)|242(9)|252(6)|268(6)|278(17)|287(9)|297(7)|310(8)|320(20)|330(11)|348(5)|359(6)|374(6)|384(15)|397(8)|408(13)|417(3)|428(8)|441(17)|451(5)|467(3)|476(18)|486(15)|496(11)|508(12)|519(5)|529(12)|540(11)|550(11)|559(5)|570(13)|579(12)|593(6)|607(11)|621(5)|630(4)|641(10)|655(13)|665(4)|676(5)|690(12)|701(4)|711(13)|728(15)|740(15)|749(7)|766(4)|776(13)|786(11)|798(10)|814(9)|825(13)|841(9)|854(16)|862(8)|953(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2580fba038f13dc496911c1023b4dcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview with Joanne Tawfilis by Linda Kallas, October 31, 2022. Linda Kallas ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 45 Early life and childhood Tawfilis talks about her early life, where she was born in New London, Connecticut and offers a brief introduction to her family. Family ; New London Connecticut ; Filipino ; Dad 0 90 Moving and living in California Tawfilis talks about her moving to California, as well as mentions how San Diego County is one her favorite places she has ever been to. It is here where she also discovered her sense of community through the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. San Diego ; 1971 ; travelling ; retirement ; moving ; Multicultural center ; Oceanside 0 240 Career as an artist Tawfilis talks about how she started her career in art, from doing illustrations with the U.S. Government, United Nations, and civilian sectors. Tawfilis's career included working at the Submarine School in Connecticut, the Navy and country's Bicentennial, and as an International Military Training Coordinator. Tawfilis also speaks to the impact of Chicano Park. Military ; United Nations ; San Diego ; Chicano Park ; Submarine School in Connecticut 0 597 International Work Tawfilis describes her time doing work both for the military and the United Nations. As part of her work with the military, Tawfilis did bas closure studies. Tawfilis was offered a job and moved to Germany, and from there had the opportunity to work in almost every European country doing base closures. Tawfilis also worked for the Vista Volunteer Program and then the United Nations. It is through these experiences that she learned other languages and honed her people skills. It is also through this opportunity that Tawfilis worked in countries going through turmoil and war, such as Somalia, and Cold War Germany, where she worked closely with the constant unrest around there. Military ; Travel ; United Nations ; Germany ; Austria ; Army ; Kettle Falls, Washington ; Europe ; Atomic Energy Agency ; United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi ; Sergeant Shriver ; Peace Corps ; Americorps ; Vista Volunteer Program ; Africa ; Somalia ; AIDS ; Gigiri ; War ; Germany ; Austria ; Cold war ; Berlin Wall ; Army Management Staff College 0 1077 Work with the United Nations Tawfilis talks about her time working with the United Nations, the conditions of U.N. employees that are local nationals, and briefly speaks about why she was car-napped. United Nations ; Vienna ; Austria ; Africa ; Kidnapping ; Bosnia 0 1211 Work in Bosnia / end of her career Tawfilis speaks about the end of her career, close to her retirement. Given a choice of working at the Pentagon or working in Bosnia, Tawfilis took a position as the Director of the Bosnian Women's Initiative (commonly known as the Widows of Srebrenica) in response to the Srebrenica massacre of six to seven thousand men. This choice led her to eventually work in an orphanage, where Tawfilis worked with children in creating art. Tawfilis mentions her TED talk "Painting Outside the Lines" where she goes into more detail on the project. Bosnia ; retirement ; Washington D.C ; Army ; Serbia ; Women ; murder ; TED Talk ; TED-X ; UCSD ; Orange Coast College ; Orphanage 0 1645 Artwork through the Orphanage Tawfilis describes her time working for the orphanage, and explains how working for the orphanage, led her to her passion for art through the children there. Tawfilis also began to work on murals honoring specific tragic events.&#13 ; &#13 ; Orphanage ; Children ; Yesterday and Tomorrow ; Art ; Religion ; Bombings ; UN ; Connecticut ; Art Mile ; Avenida de Los Artistas ; Foulad 0 2129 The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center Tawfilis describes setting up the The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, which is the first mural museum in the world. She explains here how they came up with ideas for various murals. She also breifly describes how they are made, using objects such as PVC to make the murals in multiple dimensions. Tawfilis also mentions how their murals are located all over the world. Giza ; The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center ; Pyramid ; Egypt ; Oceanside ; Irvine ; Japan ; Murals ; International Decade for the Culture of Peace 0 2280 Art Miles Tawfilis talks about the art project referred to as "Art Miles" which is a series of murals that spans a long distance. Mural themes have included peace, unity, and women, and also tackle issues from every human and natural disaster. The project has also done murals on cultural creations such as sports and music. Tawfilis details some of the murals and what they represent, and speaks to mural making as a form of self improvement and healing, in response to their often tragic origins. Women ; Art Miles ; diasters ; Murals ; climate change ; Children’s Environmental Health Network ; Music ; Sports ; Japan ; Guinness Book of World Records ; United Arab Emirates ; NCAI ; Africa ; Native Americans ; Guiness Book of World Records 0 3036 Murals, continued Tawfilis talks about how the ideas of the murals spread, and how they are able to reach out following a tragic event and create a mural for that community, hoping for something that will mean a lot to these people, instead of payment. Tawfilis also talks about some of the logistics of running a non-profit that creates murals. non-profit ; emotion ; Creator ; non-governmental organizations 0 3283 Sprituality, people, and culture in the murals Tawfilis speaks to the importance of culture and representation -- especially of indigenous cultures in murals, and that the Muramid's global scope is vital to North San Diego County's fabric. Catholic ; Connecticut ; Mission ; Luiseno ; North County ; Indigenous communities ; Diversity 0 3433 Enslaved Africans and indigenous peoples Tawfilis gives a background of slavery post-civil war and a loophole that was used to continue to bring enslaved peoples into the United States. Tawfilis speaks to how in Oceanside, the gentrification and commercialization of the area is leading to the destruction of its natural beauty and history. Tawfilis mentions the Muramid's ties to UNESCO as a Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. Tawfilis also speaks of Mexican and Luiseño peoples, how similar their experiences are with the destruction of their local communities for the sake of tourism and advancement. Slavery ; Mobile, Alabama ; Africa ; History ; Mural ; Commercialization ; Oceanside ; UNESCO ; Center for Peace for all of California and Baja ; Mashantucket Pequots ; Mexicans ; Indigenous people ; Machu Pichu ; Egypt ; Valley Arts Center ; Luiseño 0 3834 Future initiatives &#13 ; Tawfilis discusses her future plans which include writing books, finding a home for twelve miles of murals, and the Endangered Planet Foundation. History ; Murals ; Books ; Smithsonian ; Endangered Planet Foundation ; Cave Men ; Machu Pichu ; United States ; Expressing Emotion 0 4063 Final messages Tawfilis expresses her final thoughts, from acknowledging each other's differences in opinions, to never giving up on a goal like going to school. She also has one last moment to share her awards and how proud her father would be of her seeing her accomplishments. Opinions ; differences ; awards ; PhD ; Arlington National Cemetery ; Filipino ; North County 0 Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. &#13 ; &#13 ; Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, (laughs) almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! (chuckles) Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! (both Joanne and Linda laugh) Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. (nods) Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I—I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist (laughs), and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came—came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier , and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you call it (chuckles), I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph (chuckles) and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at—I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? Tawfilis: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German (chuckles). It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very high-ranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to— Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— Tawfilis: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it —I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw ―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started , he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have (someone enters the room, off camera) I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected , and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. (both she and Linda chuckle) And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Beslan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in― Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings , and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” (laughs), because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went (claps her hands together) “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? (Linda laughs) I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. (Looking off camera to someone else) Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-052 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rich Link OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinkRich_BixbyMarianne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview July 9, 2017. SC027-054 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.) Rich Link Mary Anne Bixby Greg Lorton Judith Downie mp3 1.0:|11(14)|23(17)|36(13)|61(3)|79(10)|91(9)|104(2)|122(2)|136(14)|155(8)|170(5)|191(4)|218(5)|232(15)|246(15)|258(12)|273(2)|286(13)|303(18)|320(9)|334(13)|365(2)|386(5)|399(7)|416(3)|440(12)|464(2)|492(3)|511(16)|543(14)|575(11)|602(6)|626(11)|650(8)|674(4)|697(10)|721(7)|738(7)|762(13)|779(7)|798(6)|814(11)|824(10)|851(13)|877(11)|903(15)|925(6)|943(9)|971(12)|996(8)|1014(12)|1041(7)|1074(4)|1086(12)|1108(15)|1128(4)|1145(2)|1161(14)|1188(2)|1204(14)|1215(16)|1233(10)|1253(8)|1276(16)|1294(4)|1306(7)|1343(10)|1371(5)|1400(17)|1437(2)|1456(3)|1486(11)|1514(10)|1531(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/be8d74a35bca81c3d4728150a1225ccc.mp3 Other audio English Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton are all early members of Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF), a San Diego area homebrewing group.&#13 ; &#13 ; In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.&#13 ; &#13 ; Link wrote for the Celebrator Beer News magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.&#13 ; &#13 ; Lorton served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Bixby, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.&#13 ; &#13 ; Recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon ; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording. Judith Downie: Okay. It's July 9th, 2017. This is Judith Downie interviewer, with Rich Link and Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton, all QUAFF members, former officials of QUAFF, for oral history about their experiences with homebrewing and QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity home brewers club.). It should be able to pick up everybody. So basically, you know, you can kind of look at those questions I gave you. You can start talking maybe from, how did you start homebrewing? What got you interested? Rich Link: Well, I liked beer. And I saw something on TV one day and I saw something in a liquor store and it had a recipe and I said, “You can actually make beer at home?” And then I just looked in the yellow pages and there was Wine Art (supply shop) at the time over here on Fletcher Parkway (El Cajon). And, uh, that was in 1980 as I recall it. And at that time, homebrewers essentially made a five-gallon batch with a can of malt and four pounds of corn sugar, holding back a cup of corn sugar for bottling. For the bottling. And it was okay. It was as actually better than, you know, the mass-produced beers here in the United States ‘cause you know, we just couldn't take that stuff anymore. 90% of what I would drink would come from England and Germany. And at that time those were really good beers. Downie: And where were you finding these beers? Link: Yeah, in liquor stores. Yeah. Like that time, I think we had like Liquor Barn and some of the little hole-in-the-walls would have some good imports, but you know, it was like some beers were like $10, $12 a six pack and that was pretty expensive. You could make about two and a half cases of beer for about $10 or $15., seems like. Yeah. You know, I remember my first batch very, very clearly. It was a Pale Ale and it got all funked up with the yeast and it was cidery and it's like, “Okay, but you know, there's still something behind there that tastes really good.” It actually had good malt flavor and some hop flavor. Had no idea what the hops were because we just bought a bag that said ‘boiling hops’ and another one that said ‘finishing hops’. (Laughter.) Greg Lorton: But you made it. Link: Yeah. And it was cool. And I remember when the fermentation took off and you'd see the head on the beer. It's like, “Wow, that's pretty cool.” Smelled amazing. Bottling sure was a pain in the butt. Mary Anne Bixby: It always is. Lorton: Yeah. That's the one thing that pushes me towards Rich and uh, yeah. Mary Anne, what about you and Bix (Horace Bixby)? Bixby: Well, my first experience with home brewed beer was in college and it wasn't my own, it was friends' and the guys had made this beer that they had in mason jars. It was all cloudy. so, it was very yeasty. That part I remember very well and it was awful. It was awful. I think all I could say was give me a glass of wine. Lorton: Were you a, you were a chemistry major? Bixby: At one time. Lorton: Okay. At Purdue? Bixby: At Purdue. Lorton: Okay. Bixby: But, when I got married, we were winemakers and we started out with Wine Art in Chicago and they had these plans where you could make four wines and they had the classes and… Wine Art at that time was, like early seventies, not into beer that much. They had some cans of malt on the shelf, but nowhere near what we have available now with yeasts and the hops and so on. So Bix and I were making wine and he did try beer once but it started exploding in the basement. So I think we dumped most of it out. Link: I can’t tell you how many times I've heard that story about exploding beers. “Oh yeah. My uncle used to make beer. It used to explode.” Man, I never had one explode. Lorton: Yeah, I would wake up in the morning, go out in the garage and “Hmm. Smells like malt.” Bixby: Oh oh. Lorton: You look at the shelf and there's stuff dripping down, a wet spot with bottles there and there's one bottle that looks a little shorter than the others. And yeah, it blew apart and the top sank down. Yeah, I had. And it wasn't until, you know, I never had that with an extract brew. But once I started all grain brewing… Lorton: I never had a bad extract brew. I never had great extract brew. But once I went to all grain, I had some really good ones. Some pretty bad ones. (Laughter.) So now when was this all this wine making stuff? Bixby: Well, in the 70s and then we moved here to California in ‘75 and we started with the Wine Art again with making wine with their program. And then all this stuff started appearing on the shelves and Bix got interested in the beer, and before you know it, he was making beer and also we joined QUAFF. And that went that direction totally. I think we only made a few wines after that ; it was all beer. Downie: So, my understanding is that Audrey Eckblom and Owen were kind of the nucleus of the startup QUAFF. But I have not been able to reach Audrey and I know she's in Nevada and I tried to call her and I've tried writing her and don't get a response. So, what do you remember about beer in Wine Crafts? I know she took it over when Wine Crafts decided to close the location and she became Beer and Wine Crafts. But you know anything about her history as a brewer or anything like that? Lorton: Yeah, I moved down here in 1988 and I was living in Carlsbad, but that was the only place to go. And they opened a second shop in San Marcos. Probably in the, I'm thinking, uh, mid-nineties… Link: Mid-nineties, something like that, 1995. Lorton: Yeah, it was you know, I can show you exactly where it is in San Marcos. Link: I remember it. Lorton: But I mean that was a lot closer for me. Yeah. It was near Bent Avenue. Bixby: Well before Audrey and Owen had the place, there was, it was owned by somebody named Peter, I think it was Peter, his name. And he I guess got out of the business, I don't know, cause then it was Audrey and Owen and she was pretty, she was really very helpful. Link: She used to make wine. She was actually an employee there. And I remember the girl that was one of the owners, she had an accent. I don't remember her name, but it was shortly after that that they, Owen and Audrey bought the place from her. Now Owen was actually a beer judge. He, he knew beer. Bixby: I didn’t know that. Link: Yeah. Now, I don't know about any accreditation. It certainly wasn't with the AHA (American Homebrewers Association), but, he was labeled a beer judge. So yeah. I was a pretty good beer judge myself from college days. Downie: Well, accreditation would have been maybe a little bit later because it was Carter's era that, even home brewing was legal again. So, you really couldn't probably do accredited judging until, you know, you'd had a few years being legal again. Link: I don't remember when the AHA started, but I think the legalization was in ‘79. Yeah. And that's when the bill by Alan Cranston. Yeah. Downie: He signed it and Carter signed it in ‘78. Link: The US bill started by a Senator in Wisconsin. Downie: And then everything winds up having to come down to state level and then county level and city level. Lorton: But California was at the forefront of that kind of stuff. So. Yeah. Downie: And so Rich, you were telling Greg that you were the third QUAFF president who was president number one and number two? Link: So, president number one was Greg Schwaller and so now I wasn't there. So a lot of what I get is from Bob Whritner. Lorton: And I have an email from Greg Schwaller going the fact that your part of that where he was, you know, kind of you're remembering what the original, he was the one who came up with the name of QUAFF. Bixby: Interesting. Lorton: And he was citing a verse from Poe, Edgar Allen Poe as the source. And what they were doing is they were thinking, you know, all, most homebrew clubs have some clever pun-related acronym. And, you know, they felt that, well, QUAFF is, let's think of something that QUAFF sounds like a beer-drinking term. So, let's come up with some words that fit that. So that's where Quality Ale Fermentation Fraternity came from. Unfortunately, Bob gave me some stuff that documented all of that. It was like the originals. I gave it to Peter (Zien) and I'm not sure if it still exists. I meant to ask Peter when I last saw him, but you know, it actually has the legal yellow pad where it has the names of the… Downie: Is this is Peter Zien? Bixby: Oh, you need to ask him. Lorton: Yeah. I have to ask Peter. Yeah. Peter Zien, (several people talking) you know, I meant to ask him. Judith and I talked with Peter a couple of weeks ago and I forgot then I (inaudible). Peter's birthday party, I forgot. Link: That was a busy day. Lorton: Yeah. And I'm hoping they still have it. Downie: Yeah, I've still got the oral history to arrange with Peter and Vicky, so I'll put that on my list to ask as well. Lorton: Yeah, I guess Greg Schwaller now, lives, I think at Three Rivers, which is near Sequoia. At least that was where he was I think 2010 or so. Link: Okay. Bixby: Gosh, that's a long time ago, yeah. Link: I thought Bob, last I talked with Bob, he thought he was up Montana or Wyoming or something like that, but who knows. Lorton: Yeah, I can send you the email that has that. Downie: That would be lovely, yeah, that'd be a real touchstone for QUAFF’s history. Lorton: It would because I, I never met him…met Greg. Bob is, Rich and Bob or someone Bixby: Who was after you? Link: After me? Skip (Virgilio). Lorton: Who was before you? Link: Paul Wesley (second QUAFF president). So I remember when QUAFF was starting because Owen tried to get me to go to the meetings. At that time, I wasn't really interested in, it wasn't all that interested in joining or being part of things. So… Bixby: A loner type, huh. Link: Well yeah. But I do remember him telling me, you know, we're having a meeting down at, it was Old Columbia (Karl Strauss brewery). That's what everyone called it back then. And it was before Chris (Cramer) really wanted to stress the Karl Strauss part of it. And then I still didn't want to go. I mean, their beer wasn't all that great. Why would I want to go all the way downtown? Downie: How much was gas a gallon then? Link: Yeah, yeah, 30 cents. But then, you know, like I said, Paul Wesley followed Greg. And Paul lived out here in Lakeside, and then Owen and Audrey kept working on me and working on me. And then finally they convinced me to go to a meeting at Callahan's (Pub &amp ; Brewery). At the original Callahan's, this was in 1990. Bixby: That's your first time you went? Link: Uh-huh. And, you know, after like two to three meetings, you know, Paul pretty much recruited me to take over. In those days you needed someone, you know. And so, he kind of felt that I was trustworthy and knew some things. But the club at that time was, I mean we had it from, most of the guys were, like I talked about earlier, the extract corn sugar brewers who are really interested in making liquid alcohol for as cheap as they could make it. Link: And cheap was like the number one priority, truly. And I'm not trying to just make fun of these guys, but that was it. Yeah. They can make 10 cent pints of beer, man, they were in heaven. But we also had guys like Vinnie Cilurzo, and John Thomas and Bob Whritner and Greg Schwaller, some of the guys who really knew what they were doing, you know. So that was pretty cool. And we'd have a little corner and bring in beers and taste them and give remarks and stuff. And that was all pretty cool. But there was a great deal of the club at the time that was not interested in going beyond, you know, the kit type mentality. And I was. In fact most of the guys had never even heard of the AHA. That was kind of my goal is get involved with the AHA more. Link: And that was when we had our first club-only competition and it was a pale ale and Whritner, Bob Whritner, was our representative and he got a second place on the national level in that competition. That kind of lit everyone up cause “Look, we do make good beer and we can get some recognition, let's go for it.” And things got pretty exciting at that time and, beer kinda got better. And you know, we had recently come across liquid yeast, you know, a couple of years earlier, it seemed like it was ’87, ‘86, something like that. So beer was getting much better and a lot more fun to brew. I remember making great wort, just absolutely great man, this is the best beer I've ever made. And then throwing in the packet of yeast and when it comes out and like crap. It's just very disappointing. And then Wyeast (yeast laboratory) was the first pack of liquid yeast I remember. In smack packs. Lorton: Is Bob still around here? Are you still in contact with him? Link: A little bit here and there. They spend, I'd say 90% of their time up in June Lake, but they do have the place in Rancho Bernardo. Lorton: Yeah, I mean Bob would be a good guy to talk to you. I mean, he's really a colorful guy. I think he's an ice scientist or something like that who would go on cruises to research the Arctic. And alcohol is not permitted on a ship, but you've got a bunch of scientists who are really creative, so yeah. Bixby: Better than prison brew. Lorton: Yeah. He would tell me about the breweries or the places to get beer in Tromsø, Norway. You know, some of the story, and Bob is such a funny guy. Somebody was talking about Bob at Peter's party too, it may have been you. Link: Yeah, it was probably me. We had dinner with them and Skip and Mary last summer. Okay. About a year ago. Yeah, he's 80 years old now. He's getting along a little slower as people do. Yeah. Downie: Honestly, you can remember, remember what happened. That's it sounds like he's probably, yeah. So he's definitely on my list of people to approach. Mary Anne. When did you join QUAFF, you and Bix? Bixby: I think it was like ‘92 or so but I remember going to meetings at La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. (Avenue, La Jolla) Link: Yeah, we moved there. Because Callahan's was too slow, too small. Bixby: So you went from Callahan’s to La Jolla and then back to Callahan’s. Link: Yeah. And then the PB (Pacific Beach) Brewhouse. Lorton: I remember my first meeting was at PB Brewhouse, but it was there because Skip was the brewer there and he was doing a tour. And that was probably May or June of ‘94 because I was lucky enough to win best in show for the AFC (America’s Finest City home brewers competition). And so they said, yeah, why don't you come to a meeting? But I think the normal meeting place at that point was La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. Yeah. Bixby: That's where I first started. Yeah. That little back room. Isn't that where you gave your slide presentation on? Link: No, the slide was at the expanded Callahan's. Well, when we first started at Callahan's, it was just that one room and we couldn't close it off to the public, you know, so we'd have our meeting and the public and it was not, just not. Downie: Not when you are passing out beer. Link: Well, and the club started to grow. I mean we would have, you know, a lot of nights we'd have 15 or 20 people, but then there was one year at the Del Mar Fair where it got a lot of visibility and the next meeting there was like 40 people and it was like standing room only. It's like, wow, we can't do this anymore. And, and, and La Jolla Brewing Company was just opening and they had a nice big back room. It's like October of 1990. And, so then we moved there. They only lasted a year, a year and a half. And Callahan's had expanded so they had a room that they could close off for us. So that was nice. So we went back there and then, then PB Brew House had, but we actually met in the brewery as I recall it. Didn't we? Lorton: I remember Skip. That first meeting, that was the only QUAFF meeting that I went to that was PB Brew House. But Skip had a tour. Link: They weren't there very long. Lorton: No. And Skip was, he was the president at the time and you know, showing how everything was done. That's the only, only time. And again, that was May or June of 1994. Bixby: Was Dion (Hollenbeck) after Skip then? Link: Yes. Lorton: I think Ted Newcomb. Link: Oh, Ted. Bixby: Oh, Ted. And then Skip then Dion? Lorton: Yeah. And then Todd. Link: I think Ted was a one year. Lorton: Yeah, I've got a list of who is president after from Skip on. So, when I get home I'm now going to pull it out (inaudible). Downie: Wow. Yeah. That's so great. At what point would you say QUAFF actually formalized, ‘cause you said you were kind of recruited into the presidency and it sounds like maybe you kind of recruited Skip to be your relief at some point. Link: It’s kind of still that way. (Laughter) Bixby: Are we really formalized? Link: What does that mean? Downie: Bylaws… Lorton: You know, Rich will go to the restroom. Okay quick. Let's decide on president. Rich. Oh, it's unanimous. Come back from the restroom. “Hey Rich, congratulations you’re president.” Downie: The moral there is don't leave the room. Lorton: Yeah. You know when I became president and Peter was the president, it was Todd Fitzsimmons then Peter and then me. But it was always the case as well. You know, Peter's kind of taking over the stuff that Todd was doing. So Peter is kind of a natural guy for that and I think I kind of fell into the same thing. And Harold Gulbransen was after me and so he got in there and then Bob McKay. Bixby: My impression has always been, the president has always fallen into that position. It's like, man… Link: I think there was one year. Bixby: Willing to do the job to, to pick up, you know, to take up the reins and go for it. And, and we've been very, very fortunate in my tenure. I mean, I mean my time with QUAFF to have some really good people dedicated. Link: But there was one year where we had a vote at a club vote. Bixby: Oh, you remember that, who was this then? Link: Well, I think that was Skip’s second term, but we dodged the bullet. And I think that thought, cause I was, when I handed it off to Skip, you know, we would have essentially closed board meetings and I said “I nominate Skip.” And that was pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. And then something came up about voting for it, and it was hard to, hard to argue on that point, but we did. But boy, there was something close. I remember that was something that was averted. Link: Yeah, but since then I remember, I think when Todd was president, there was some kind of czar-ish directive. (Laughter) Bixby: Czar-ish, it that what you said? Lorton: Well we, you know, when I was on the board from the time I was the newsletter editor from ‘96 on and ‘til I became president, but it was always a board decision on what the officers were going to be rather than, and we would put it up to the meeting if, you know, the board has decided that this should be the slate of officers. Does anybody have any objection or, you know, I think, I can't recall if we actually said all those in favor, say aye and everybody would go “Give me another beer, aye.” You know? Downie: Then everybody had an opportunity to say something, so it wasn't completely closed or anything. Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that the people who were really interested in how the club was running were the board members. Bixby: That's true. Yeah. No, that's a good statement. Yeah. Downie: A process of natural selection. Bixby: Yes, and those who are actually doing most of the work. Lorton: I think that’s the way it continues now. Bixby: Yes, and we've tried to get more newer board members, we want QUAFF to continue. Downie: Right. Bixby: And we've been throwing it out there over and over, you know, but people are reluctant to, they have their own lives. This is not, you know, like any group. It's a volunteer kind of position. So try to get some of these young people, we have, we have several very great new ideas and so on. I love that part. I just want it to continue. I love QUAFF so much. Lorton: You know, you haven't been a one of the senior officers. Bixby: Never, not yet. Link: (Showing photograph) So that was the original room at Callahan. Downie: That's wonderful. Bixby: Can I see that? Lorton: I’ve got to see that too. Link: And then they added on that section right there where they could actually rope it off. Lorton: Yeah, I remember we had one meeting. There was a point at which we were kind of, we kind of hit a minimum and I remember Harold Gulbransen was giving a talk and it was in October and he was competing with the World Series which was on the TV screen behind him. Bixby: Which was hard for him as one eye was probably on the Series and one eye on the…That’s really great. You have a date on the back too? Lorton: This guy is much more… Link: I would say this is probably about 92-ish. This is not like the photos when we were kids that had the date on the back or on the margins. Downie: Well of course I am trying to work with Lee (Doxtader) at Callahan’s and he can probably give me some dates. I would hope he would remember QUAFF’s presence. Bixby: Was Lee around that long ago? Oh my, (another photograph) well that's… Downie: Chris with Karl Strauss. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. I remember one of those is a beer dinners they had. I actually sat at the table with Karl and his wife. It was kind of fun. Bixby: I think they still have the same chef. Link: You know, I think so. Bixby: Gunther. Downie: You even remember his name. Bixby: Good food! Link: I knew I had a picture. Bixby: Yeah. That's great. Downie: So. the pictures are wonderful. I mean that would be something that I would be interested in digitizing, giving you copies of the digital files. Link: Most of those are pre-digital, so they're just going to be… Downie: Negatives floating around, if you still have the negatives. Link: They’re somewhere. Yeah, it's tough. Downie: It is. I'm going through my parents’ things and my mother was, you know, a historian at heart and I actually, when I was emptying out the house, I found up on the very highest shelf in the entry hall closet, so, of course that's where the heat all rises. Six eight-millimeter films, pre-sound. My parents' wedding day. My cousins, there's actually some of me, I took them to ScanDiego and they were able to salvage pretty much everything and digitize them. So, I have to give my family, you know, pictures, you know, the films on a DVD and say, here you go. And if anybody, I filled in what I knew what I could recognize and some of them I had to kind of guesstimate the date saying, well, okay, I'm in there. So, I know that had to be this year, but I'm not in that one and this cousin looks younger, so it was probably a couple of years earlier. And I've asked the family, of course, you know, probably none of them have actually stopped and taken the time to look at the DVDs. If I put them online like in Dropbox and link them and said, here, go look at these and you know, give me some feedback. They'd probably do that. But you know, a lot of people don't have DVD players even anymore. Link: DVD? Downie: Yeah, I do have the online digital files. Link: That’s our media now. Downie: Yeah, for me. I've got DVD player and stuff. Bixby: (to Lorton) Which one did you get? Lorton: Get Thee to a Nunnery. (beer name) Bixby: I’m telling you, that is going to be one of my new favorites. Link: Did you try the English (inaudible)? Lorton: Oh, the Banksy? Link: No, the (inaudible). Lorton: No I didn’t. Link: What was it, something about all night or midnight or something. Down Through the Night? Bixby: We'll wait for you if you go get a beer. Loron: I'm just going to say… Link: Well now you can talk about me… Lorton: Let me check on my record to see if I... Link: Quite frankly, there were a lot of QUAFF members at that time that didn't like what I was doing and they stopped coming. But I think it was the right thing to do to make QUAFF more.... Bixby: What years were you in? Link: I was president in 1990. So for two years. Lorton: Yeah. I had the same experience. Bixby: I must have this come in on the end of you. I don't remember being displeased. Link: Well, I think people like us, we're happy with the direction it’s going. But the guys that were making the 10 cent pints, were not. Bixby: Oh, there is a different mentality. When you talk to people across the, yeah, it's a different mentality. Lorton: I mean there was a group, they were complaining, “Oh, you guys are too focused on competition.” Bixby: But it was, I never thought it was, so much as focus on competitions is focusing on bettering your craft is what it was. And so the competitions were feedback. I always looked at it in a totally different way. Lorton: Well, it depends on your perspective ‘cause I agree totally with you. Link: But, there were a lot of members even after the exodus in my period, there were still a lot of members thought we were too fixated on competitions. And I would just tell them don't worry about it. Yeah. Downie: You don't have to participate. It can be a goal for some. Bixby: Yeah, yeah. Link: Just learn from it. Come and enjoy it. What did you want? Bixby: Another Nun. Lorton: Let me know what that British beer was Rich that you said if I had… Link: Oh, it’s Down through the Night, a British Strong. Lorton: Oh okay, now I haven’t had that. Bixby: You know, I live so close, I should have had everything here. Lorton: You know, getting drunk has no appeal to me. Bixby: No, no, no, no, no. You know, that's not the point. Lorton: I know a lot of people who, “Oh yeah,” like get, well, I mean, but I'm not one of them. Bixby: You get drunk, you can't taste another good beer. Lorton: Yeah, I get headaches the next morning. You know, if it's too much, the bed starts spinning around. Bixby: It’s been a long time since that happened. Lorton: I was just going to say, that's when I was a wine person. Downie: So, Mary Anne, tell me about Mead Day and the celebration at your house. Bixby: You know I cannot remember the first time I did it. You’re kind of, like have some trust you know, in your reminisces. Lorton: The unfortunate thing is a lot of my memory is actually in the newsletters that I did. And I don't know if my newsletters predate mead day and I'm trying to remember where else we were. I told Judith that Frank Golbeck came to one of our mead days a few years ago. Bixby: But I'd had them before Frank came along. Lorton: They were quite, I don't know how, I don't remember. It just seems like a long time we have done this. And it's the national mead day, which is the first Saturday in August, which is kind of hot in El Cajon usually, which is an understatement. But sometimes it rained a couple times, but other than that… Lorton: I told her about Death Mead Day. Downie: Yeah. I heard about the Death Mead and anything called Death Mead Day is definitely a must attend. Lorton: What kind of alcoholic beverage do you want to not drink a whole lot of when its hot? Bixby: I know it. (Laughter) Link: At least it’s not Imperial Stout Day. Lorton: It’s stronger than Imperial Stout. Bixby: It's been fun over the years. And, we had one guy who was, owned the Downtown Johnny Brown's, for a while and he made mead cocktails and brought them to Mead Day. So even that was fun. We has meads from all over the place. Lorton: Yeah, we started Mead Day probably when AHA started recognizing it (in 2002). It wouldn’t surprise me because we were into meads back in the early 2000s, late 1990s. Bixby: I should check on the original when AHA started that cause they used to have an official recipe. So, it was like, okay, my garage wasn't so full at the time. So we used to make mead in the garage, which kept all the mess and the stickiness right there. And the, and I would… Lorton: The bees. Bixby: …clean out. Well we did have that. Lorton: When you make mead, if you do it outside, you get bees. Bixby: Oh yeah. Downie: There's a cautionary tale. Link: You come in the garage, you get, come on, really? Get outta here. Lorton: Yeah, they like honey. Bixby: But there was an official recipe and I tried to encourage people, you know, this is the official recipe we're going to do. And since I was hosting it hard for me to make it, but I'm trying to get other people to do it and we, we had some pretty good meads. Lorton: Yeah. Well, there's always… Bixby: Hot or not. I mean it was never blasting. Lorton: Yeah. There's always, always more meads. You end up with a whole bunch leftover when we’re done. Bixby: Yeah, because I tried to collect not just the ones on my travels, but some of the competition meads, even the ones where when we had the homebrew competitions. Then they were like unknown cause I never got the printout to say number whatever is such and such. So we just opened them. I still have a few for this year from last year’s competitions. Lorton: Yeah. So, you know, if we have a, if there's a competition, you know, the idea is submit two bottles. If yours is the best in your category and there's three to five categories, then that best in that category will go on and compete for the best of show. But everything else is just a second bottle, looking for a home. Bixby: (Inaudible) was my home for a long time. Downie: There's the advantage to having it at your house. Bixby: Well I didn't drink them, I saved them so we could share. Cause you never, you didn't know what they were. Lorton: At your house. It was better than being at my house. Bixby: Oh maybe so. Lorton: But yeah. And it was good because I think at the time, and we’re still doing this. There are quite a few people who are interested in being mead judges and it's good to look at “Well, this mead isn't quite so good for this reason. It's too hot and too, you know, too alcoholic” Bixby: Or no flavor. Lorton: Yeah. Things like that. So, but yeah, you know, I'm trying to remember if it was at someplace besides your place when we first got started. Bixby: I don't know. I can't remember that. That's too far off. But I know I did it because Bix was into making beer and mead making was similar to wine making. So, it interested me. And so, I started making mead. Link: With your daughter? Bixby: You know, actually I, I know I did it before, but the only mead my daughter and I ever made was in 2000 there's one bottle left. I have no idea how it tastes. I hate to open it without her. If she could ever come to Mead Day, I would open it. But she helped formulate the recipe. Downie: So good. Rich, have you ever done mead or cider? Link: Yeah, I did a few. It wasn't something that I really wanted to do much of because I didn't drink a lot of mead. It was tough for me to, it was just tough to drink that much mead. Yeah. Bixby: Are you a wine maker? I mean a wine drinker at all? You are? Link: Yeah. Bixby: You are. Lorton: I am not. Link: It is a lot easier for me to drink a bottle of wine than it was for mead. Mead was just too much. Lorton: Yeah. I'm kind of the same way. You know, I go through periods when, “Oh, that mead really tastes good. I need to make some.” And then I, you know, I've made a whole bunch and okay and I've got to get rid of these bottles, you know, and… Bixby: No, I agree. When your palate has tasted so many things, I've gone through stages too. So you know, maybe I'm into a hop mood and maybe I'm not, you know, or something like that. Lorton: Well, and for me, I have a beer with dinner and there aren't many foods that don't go well with beer, but there are a lot of foods that don't go well with wine or mead. Bixby: That's interesting. Cause I remember when all this pairing stuff, remember when they were into the pairing and the food and the beer dinners and so on. And that was one of the things I heard right from the beginning. The guys, the chefs, saying not the drinkers, but the chefs would say, yeah, they had an easier time with the beer. Lorton: Yeah. What kind of wine or me goes best with a hamburger or what kind of pizza goes best with wine? Downie: Well, I have to say when I was in the Craft Beer Expo last September and did the chocolate and beer pairing with Bill Sysak. Saturday morning at 9:00 AM, I'm sitting there with chocolate and beer in front of me going, “This is something real wrong, cause I'm not that big a beer drinker.” But Bill made the argument that the carbonation in beer actually because it cuts through the fatty of the foods, makes for a better drink with any food. Link: That’s why it’s so much better with cheese than wine is, you know, the whole wine thing is wine and cheese. Well no, it doesn't work as well as beer. Downie: And with wine, until you get into this whole, you've got red, you've got white, you've got these very distinct strong categories where with beer there seems to be a, because of the hops and things, there seem to be a more consistent thread through it. So, it just seems to be more all-purpose maybe, I am not explaining it very well. Lorton: Well, I mean there's so many, I mean beer is such a much more diverse than wine. Link: I've had arguments with wine makers about that. Oh you know, wine does this. So there's so many variations. And I said, okay, let's just talk about beer, the different kinds of malts, the different kinds of hop, different kinds of yeast. It's like infinite. Yeah, it's, it's truly infinite. Wine. Like you said, you got your reds and whites, you got blends and stuff, but they only got about five or six different categories. Really. Bixby: That was fun for me to watch. The homebrewing community really affect what we drink now because the guys had no limits. And so, we had people making beer with Jolly Ranchers or something from the grocery store, cereal bins, or something like that. And then these ideas just kind of, I think progress and what the creativity is, was part of the whole thing. That's what I love. And then of course the gadgetry, I was in love with the gadgetry. Oh my gosh you guys… Link: There were a lot of engineers and scientists that brew. Bixby: It was beautiful. That's what I love. I did love that part. That so much. Lorton: Yeah. And you see that in commercial brewing now. I mean, if you look at the new things that the brewers are making, you know, I went to a golf and beer festival a couple of weeks ago or a couple of months ago, eight breweries where there, you know, Stone, Mother Earth, Mike Hess, Latitude 33, five of those eight had a citrus IPA. You know, three years ago how many citrus IPAs were out there? Ballast Point was there with Grapefruit Sculpin. Latitude 33 had their Blood Orange IPA. Stone had Tangerine IPA, but three years ago, how many citrus IPAs were out there, and then all these new things are coming along. Man, that Blood Orange IPA from Latitude 33 is so good. Went up to Double Peak (Park) a couple of weeks ago and came back to a Japanese restaurant, a sushi bar, and they had, you know, Asahi, Kirin, Sapporo and this “blood orange stuff that we can't get rid of.” “Oh, I'll take that one. Is that from Latitude 33?” “I don't know I’ll check. Yes, it's from Latitude 33.” Bixby:Interesting. Downie: Interesting that they wouldn't. Of course when somebody goes to a sushi restaurant, they probably want to drink culturally appropriate beer. Lorton: This was in San Marcos, not far from where, you know, Homebrew Mart, whatever, Beer and Wine Crafts was located. Bixby: It’s San Diego County after all. Lorton: Oh man, it went so well, I had tempura so… Link: Are you grasping the hops nowadays? I ‘cause we used to have… Lorton: Yeah. Link: You know, arguments. I really mean ‘cause I would hop my beers. Bixby: You two would? Link: Well exceedingly hoppy and you know, and it was way too hoppy for Greg. Lorton: I would like a beer with a little bit of diacetyl in it. Link and Bixby: Oh no! Lorton: A little bit is a lot. This guy, if you open a beer with that in it in the room… Bixby: He said it a long time ago and it sticks in my mind. Link: I'm across the room going alright, who opened that up? Get that outta here! Lorton: Yeah, you and Skip. Well I normally like Belgian beers. I like non-hoppy beers, but if I'm going to have a pizza, it's got to be an IPA. you know, I really like a hoppy beer with pizza or hot chili. Downie: Spicy. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't found a wine yet that goes well with those, but, and I haven't looked real hard either. But you know, for a beer like for a food like pizza or chili and I really kinda want a hoppy beer. Link: Chiantis, the Sangiovese with Pizza Hut. (Laughter) Bixby: There you go. Lorton: Oh man. Your masculinity is just gone into that. (Laughter) Yeah. I stopped being a wine person as soon as I discovered homebrewing. I haven't had a wine in at least a year. Bixby: Oh, I’m afraid I am an all-purpose drinker. Downie: Since you have made wine… Bixby: It depends on it, whatever my mood is. Sometimes I am in the mood for hops… Link: I don't discriminate against any alcohol. Bixby: Nor do I. Lorton: I don't have any wine in my house. Bixby: A good single malt scotch sometimes that’s what you want. Lorton: I’ve got a bottle of Laphroaig and Balmore in my refrigerator. I like them cool. But, uh, no wine. Bixby: Oh dear. Link: So where did we leave off on the QUAFF? Downie: My questions were fairly generic here, so I'm just kind of looking. You've talked about the growth of the membership, which I think really says something. I do have other QUAFF past-presidents like Peter Zien to talk to yet, but it sounds like you are still members of a very strong supportive community and you know, you're very open minded too, except for that one thing that you've talked about that you could smell it across the room. It sounds like you're a super smeller. Lorton: Diacetyl, it’s butter, it’s buttery aroma. Downie: Okay. Lorton: Really good. Bixby:For me, it’s skunky. I’ll get the skunkiness out of anything, I hate it. Link: Great on popcorn. Not so good in beer. Lorton: But I mean Rich is one of these people that is, yeah… Bixby: You know the thing you said about supportive, I think the key that I've always found with QUAFF. Supportive, not just in the, oh, who needs help brewing, but just in other ways too. When my husband died, I knew if I needed something…I'm usually, I'm a loner and I'll do it myself kind of thing. But I knew if I really needed something, I could call on somebody and I had many offers. So, I think that's, that's what it became, well, I mean, I said it in Sheldon’s (Kaplan) movie (SUDS County, USA). QUAFF to me was always a family, like a second family. Lorton: I, then one thing that Rich brings is, I mean you've been all over the world tasting beer and you know, you can talk about places in Brussels to go if you want a good beer. Places, you know… Bixby: The knowledge you mean? Lorton: Yeah. Just, well experiencing those beers at the source. You know, for me, my favorite beer city is Bamberg, Germany. Bixby: You like those malt beers. Lorton: I like it. You know, the majority of the breweries there don't make smoked beers, but you know, they all make good beer and but yeah, I do love the smoked beer. I mean almost as much as buttery beer. Downie: Where do you stand on smoked beer Rich? Link: I like it. Okay. Oh yeah. You do have common ground there somewhere. Lorton: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Link: I mean there isn't a beer style that I hate unless they put cucumber in it. (Laughter) Bixby: I might have to agree with you on that. Like cucumber water. Link: I haven't figured that one out yet. Downie: That does sound like it would be a mistake. Link: Yeah. But I see it on the shelves now. Bixby: Oh dear. Oh you do? Link: Yeah. Not kidding. Lorton: I'm trying to remember if at that beer festival I had one with cucumber in it. In the competitions, I usually like to judge what we call weird beers, which is fruit beers, spice or vegetable beers, specialty. And occasionally you run into a cucumber. But I've had some cucumber beers lately. They weren't bad, but cucumber is not my favorite. I guess that's a vegetable I don’t know and uh, yeah, it's not, I've never made one with cucumber in it. Bixby: I like cucumbers but not in water and probably would not like it in beer. Link: People like it. And that's fine. Bixby: I’ve had asparagus beer that I thought was… Link: WOW. wow. Bixby: No, I know when I saw it the guys were saying this is at GABF and so, ”You have to try this, you have to try that.” Oh, okay. And then it was done perfectly. It's like how do you get asparagus in a beer and not have it like be yucky or something? Although it did have the same effect after the fact, as eating asparagus, unfortunately. (laughter) Lorton: Thank you. TMI. I’ve never had an asparagus beer. Or spinach Bixby: It’s interesting, the different beers, you know, you run into at GABF (Great American Beer Festival) when you're, when you're working in the back with all the beers. A job. I like. Lorton: Oh wow. Link: I remember an early QUAFF meeting and the guy brought in a beer that he brewed based on some historical reading. He had dug up with bananas. And he brought it up and we're tasting it. I'm going, “Oh my God. You know, I've done everything I can to get banana tastes and flavors out of my beers. Why would you intentionally put it in?” Bixby: That’s really interesting. Link: Historical significance? Okay. Don’t like it. Lorton: I've heard that. Bixby: Not on that Sumerian tablet, I’m sure. Downie: A sacrifice for historical research. Well, there actually is in ancient Greece, if a woman was having trouble nursing a child after birth, there was a recipe involving worms crushed up in beer to correct the situation. Bixby:Oh, that's interesting. They could have minused the worms. I'm sure she would have been happier. Downie: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe the worms were to keep her from drinking too much. I don't know, but… Bixby: Maybe that's a good point. Lorton: You know, probably 15 years ago we were talking about cock ale. Randy Barnes made a beer with chicken in it and it wasn't very good. He said, well, okay, I made the cock ale and Randy, he's the guy who's the vice president of educational services with a community college district. Bixby: He’s the dean or something. Lorton: Yeah, he's the kind of guy who would do it. He's the guy who you'd never expect is a professional, if you ever ran into him. Bixby: That's right. Lorton: If, but I, yeah and he’s really… Bixby: Creative. Lorton: And he's really smart and with a sense of humor that just would never stop. Link: Jim Koch told me about doing that once their little brewery (Sam Adams) back in Boston. A pilot brewery. It wasn't so good. Downie: Yeah, it doesn't… Link: Throwing in chickens into the… Bixby: I can't even, why would you even consider that? Downie: Any meat product does not sound like it would… Link: There is some historical significance about it, which I couldn't even grasp. Lorton: Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that's a good, I don't know. Link: Cause you know he based a lot of things on historical significance. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. Bixby: Oh, I am going to have to read up on that now. Chicken and beer and see what I get. Lorton: Cock Ale. Ask Randy. He would probably recall. Bixby: Why he would do, I don't know about the historical, maybe he would. Lorton: Well yeah, I can't remember how we got onto that, but it was enough that it kind of sustained itself for a couple months. Downie: That's something I'm seeing here in your stories is the fact that you're supportive of each other, that you've kept in touch with each other, that you've had fun. Bixby: Oh my gosh. I don't know about these guys, but I had a blast probably, you know, I'm, I married a guy who was kinda quiet, not a social kind of person. In fact, even now when I'm thinking about him after a couple, you know, a year and a half, it's like I look up, you know, Asperger's in adults. I go, that sounds like my man. No, he just was not a social kind of guy, but QUAFF, there was a home for him in QUAFF and everybody seemed to accept him and he felt, you know, quote end quote loved there, whatever you want to call it. That was just the right place to be. I mean, it just, for us as geeky, nerdy, whatever you want to call us, we fit. Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that, you know, one of the reasons I really like making beer as opposed to making wine is that when I was married, I had a brother-in-law who was a real wine snob and he was a spirits snob, and you know, it was, it just grated on me. And you know, beer people aren't like that. Well, you know, most beer people aren't. Bixby: But do you think so? I don't think they are. Link: There are some, but yeah, there's you know… Lorton: There are a few that say, well, I'm not going to drink that. Bixby: Even the women who drink wine a lot, they’ll drink beer now and then. Link: Any, aspect of, like cheese or hamburger, anything. People are purist people. Yeah. Lorton: You have people in QUAFF who will say, “I'm not gonna drink a Ballast Point beer because they're owned by Constellation Brands. Or I'm not going to buy a…”, you know, yeah. Downie: Well, that can go back to when gas hit a dollar a gallon. People saying, “I'm not buying any more gas. Well, I'd like to see you try.” Lorton: That’s the nice thing, in beer is a much more community, you know, it, it's… Bixby: I'm not sure what it is across the country ‘cause I don't know anywhere else, but San Diego and I just feel they've been cooperative and giving. Lorton: I think it’s like that in most places, yeah. Link: Mm-hum. Bixby: I mean, I know when I've traveled all these years with Bix, we always of course, stopped at breweries nearby, right. If not aimed towards them specifically. That if you start talking to the guys, and I always like just sitting at the bar talking to who brews this. And then pretty soon somebody comes out. Oh, let me show you my tanks. And it's usually, like Peter, and like AleSmith started out with dairy tanks or something and I, and I had to weld this and I had to do that and I go, Oh yeah. So that's just a different… Lorton: It's like that all over the country. It, and it was funny because when I was teaching business classes that you'd have marketing people who didn't know beer saying, well, you know, there's not a lot of cooperation among competitors in an industry. And I say, well, you need to look at the brewing industry because you know, like, when there was a hop shortage eight years ago, you know, some brewers were giving hops to others or selling at a low price to allow them to continue. Sam Adams was selling hops, at their, you know, their costs as opposed to what the price was. You know, when there was the hop shortage. Bixby: Oh, cause they had the option. Link: Well, they bought futures, future contracts. Lorton: I mean, look at all the homebrew clubs. I was looking at the names of some of those clubs, like Brewers United for Real Potables in Virginia, the Greater Denver Yeast Infection and you know, Maltose Falcons and, you know, playing on the Maltese Falcon. Bixby: That’s a good one. Lorton: There’s Foam on the Brain here. And you know, QUAFF there, there's so many funny names that Strange Brew in Oregon, you know, and in all kinds, Urban Knaves of Grain, in Chicago. Yeah, I mean there's so many funny names, so. Yeah. And that's because that's how brewers are. They, you know, Hey, you know, this is fun. You know, we're not taking it too seriously. We are, you know, really studying, brewing, but it's for fun, you know. Bixby: Seems you know, that'd be a good lesson all over. Link: I think is just more of a social fun drink than spirits. Lorton: If I'm going to go to a place where I'm going to have a drink with other people and I have to go home, I'm going to have a beer. I'm not going to have a, you know, scotch on the rocks, you know, I'm not gonna to do that, you know? Bixby: Well, there is a group that would do that. You know, what do they think about, you know, my martini for dinner and scotch after or… Lorton: Beer seems like it's a much more sociable drink that let's go have a beer. Bixby: More for the common man and we're all just common man. I don’t know, I don’t know what the deal is. Lorton: You know, maybe a lower alcohol and a… Link: Yes, lower alcohol. You get a pint. You can drink for a half hour or more and still drive home. Lorton: Even if your home is like a mile away or so. Link: Yeah, right up there. Bixby: Mine is max 10 minutes. And that's taking the slow road here. Lorton: Well, yeah, I was gonna say when I went to Mead Day last year, I came here first and then I got on the road and I was driving and some guy’s really slow SUV or something or a Leer truck. Oh, it's Teresa and Rich. Oh, they're going to the same place I’m going. Link: It was after a day at Mead Day we decided to stop here. Yeah. Lorton: Well I did it before, which was probably a little bit of a mistake. Yeah. Downie: Well, one final thing I'd like to ask about…the increase of women in brewing, are you seeing that reflected in the membership in QUAFF? Link: I can't talk to that cause I haven't been to a QUAFF meeting. Bixby: I would, I would say no. I mean I belong to SUDS. Downie: The San Diego sorority. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. And those women are not involved in commercial brewing. They are, it's not like the Pink Boots, it's more that they want to do their own thing. They know what they're doing and like, they do know what they're doing in spite of what you guys might think, (interjected denials from Link and Lorton) these girls do know what they're doing. In fact, I was, you know, it's really interesting cause when Juli first, Juli Goldenberg, first came up with the idea for this group (San Diego Suds Sorority), she talked at a QUAFF meeting and I said, “Oh shoot, you know, I grew up in the 60s we'd marched for equal rights, we burned our bras, we did all this kind of stuff. And why do we want to separate, you know, why do we want it something separate?” And Harold, I know I mentioned that to Harold, he goes, why don’t you just get involved in that? Why don't you see what they're all about? Cause something, I dunno what it was that he saw. So I thought. Okay. And I went and I was really impressed because they knew what they wanted to do. He knew about brewing, they had been brewing, they just wanted a group that wasn't going to be intimidating. And I went to a talk when we had our last (inaudible) conference here was in 2015 and it was about women. And that whole idea was a panel discussion on, I thought it was absolutely excellent cause there were groups of women from different women's groups across the country talking about that whole idea. And one other woman my age, as she appeared to be, got up and said, “Why do we want to be separated” and I go, “Oh gosh, that's what I voiced.” Bixby: But then the group panel kind of, you know, said because when we do stuff with the guys they want to take over, you know, it's a natural… Link: You’re a minority. It's tougher. Bixby: Thank you very much. Lorton: Well, no, no true. Bixby: In the brewing community. Yes. Not in life. Okay, that's true. So it's like what do we know about the science or the whole art of brewing? And they said this way, you know, we have this, this separateness that we can kind of teach each other and have this open kind of a... And one of the ladies said, “All guys were asking if they could come and join. Yes, you can come and be part of it, but you have to sit over there and be eye candy.” (laughter) Link: And don’t talk. Bixby: Yeah. And if we need something lifted. Downie: I was going to say there might be something of the chivalry aspect where that's big as, you're a little woman and let me help you with that. Bixby: But I thought that was a very interesting topic and it was pertinent too. And I, since I joined the SDSS and have been part of that, I've been totally impressed with the beers that come out of there. And the girls, they're just, they're fun. Lorton: Yeah. Well, if you look at who won this year at (the San Diego) International Beer Festival, I mean Liz Chism is the brewer at Council (Brewing Company). She's the one who made the beer that won. And… Bixby: It's nice that her husband Curtis really makes a point of that is not, he's not intimidated. So for me he has a lot of… Lorton: Well it was a little bit of a mind change too for me that, ‘cause I thought Curtis was the brewer. Bixby: I knew from the beginning. Lorton: He clarified that with me. That Liz is the one who brews, she's the one who makes the recipes. Bixby: So that's very impressive. She's very good at… Lorton: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've judged with both of them and she definitely, I mean it was clear that she really understands. Bixby: I don’t know, I don't see, I mean I don't know what Pink Boots (Society, organization for women and non-binary brewers) says. I know there's women in the industry, but as far as home brewing, I don't see a big enough presence in QUAFF. And I don't know if it's intimidation. I don't think so. I don't, I think it's like what's more important in your life? What's going on? Do you need to… Link: The time that you have available, its pretty easy to go order a beer. Bixby:You know, a guy is going to go out, that's his thing. You know, where a woman might say I got, especially if she has kids and then she's got a job and then she's got a house and I'm sorry guys. But it's still that way you're as the female, you're still the one that, because it's your nest and it's, and that's okay. It's just, you know, when I was growing up it's like gender equality, course, you know, I will always be for financial equality, but you know, these days there is no gender equality. We are different and that's okay. And once we get past that then we can go on. Lorton: Well, you know, before the Industrial Revolution, women were the ones who made beer. You know, that was part… Bixby: That way before, cause you guys were doing the, catching those mammoths and whatever else you guys, you know. Lorton: So you know, that was their job. I think. Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think that, you know, there is this, still you know, homebrewing is still predominantly a male kind of thing. The other thing that I think is surprising, and I didn't realize this until after I'd started all grain brewing is I'm essentially cooking, you know? Yeah. Here I am in the kitchen, slaving over a hot stove. (laughter) I'm cooking. So, yeah. And you know, and I realize, I'm creating recipes thinking, okay... (brief interruption by the server.) Downie: You did want your crowler. Don’t forget. Bixby: Oh that’s right, cause I'm going to the meeting tomorrow. Lorton: Oh, and for Mead Day, I went to a new meadery last week in Vista. Bixby: Which one? Lorton: Twisted Horn. Bixby: I've heard of that. How was it? Lorton: Yeah, they had some good meads. I'm waiting for Billy (Beltz) to open his meadery (Lost Cause Meadery). Bixby: Me too. Lorton: …and he's going to be in Miramar. That's going to be something. Link: What’s the name of it? Lorton: Lost Cause. Link: Isn’t there another meadery just opened there? Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn. Oh, it's Serendipity Cider is there. Bixby: He’s in the same spot is as... Lorton: And I think he's been having some regulatory problems, but there are four meaderies. There's also one called Mediocrity. Bixby: Yeah. And then the Bronto group guys. Lorton: Oh, I haven't heard that one. Bixby: Yeah, they're not making good stuff. Mediocrity is okay. Lorton: I have not tried theirs. Bixby: They're like up in there. They're okay. Link: Are they like mediocre? (laughter) Bixby: I don't know why somebody would choose that name. Lorton: We were talking about how about Black Plague (Brewing Company) as a name for a brewery? Link: Yeah. Bixby: I'm not sure where these guys come up with this stuff, but… Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn is a big Viking thing. And they're in the area with all the Vista breweries. Bixby: Were they on the sweet side or no, is Viking sweet? Lorton: No, they were semi-sweet. But they had, you know, they had like, it was posted Horn Mead and Cider and I only tried the meads but they had probably six meads to choose from. The one I liked the best was a blueberry melomel, but they had various collections. I'll bring some, I'll stop by there and get a small growler to bring by. But yeah, on Lost Cause, I mean when they get situated there's going to be five breweries and meaderies literally across the street (Miralani Drive, San Diego) from each other. Bixby: And sake. Lorton: Okay. Yeah. Cause I mean Two Kids, Align, what’s that, Thunderhawk? And there’s another one, Projector? Bixby: I know. Downie: There's Protector. Link: Protector. That’s the one, they're not a meadery? Lorton: I don't think they are. Bixby: Protector. Now see that's not one I have heard of. I can't keep up. These guys are moving too fast. Lorton: Well yeah, I've got to talk with my son cause my son likes to make mead and… Bixby: Oh, his son made the best. I'm sorry, I'm sorry Greg, but his bouchet was wonderful. Lorton: Bouchet is a mead that's made from caramel from sugar that's been, or honey that's been carmelized. Downie: Ooh. Bixby: And you know I tasted one at Mike Buck’s. Mike Buck made one that was really good too. Lorton: Yeah. I made one. But it was kind of underdone. Bixby: Yeah, your son's was… Lorton: Yeah, he made a good one. It was distinctive. Bixby: I can definitely remember one. Mine just tasted really good at the beginning, getting at all those bubblegum flavors and all that. And then it just dissipated. Okay. That's not non distinct. Lorton: Right. Unfortunately, mine is gone, long gone, so I don't know what… Bixby: Mine's gone too. Lorton: That tastes like. But yeah, that area, that Miralani Drive is… Bixby: I know and it's getting… Link: Oh, they're (Protector Brewery) all organic. Organic. Lorton: Okay. Downie: Yeah. I was just looking at them last night. Bixby: Oh dear. So what’s not organic about honey? Lorton: True. Link: They’re not a meadery, they’re a brewery. Bixby: Oh. Oh. Downie: And probably the biggest challenge is organic hops. Bixby: Oh, that makes sense. So is anybody doing that locally? Organic hops? I mean, how many local hops growers do we have? We have Star B (ranch and hop farm in Ramona, CA)… Lorton: Well, I would guess I met with a guy (Eric March) from Star B one time and we were talking about you know, meads, but you know, it wouldn't surprise me. And there's an article in West Coaster I think this month about Star B also. Bixby: Is there? Lorton: Yeah. Get the West Coaster here. Bixby: Is it in there? Lorton: Yeah. Okay. But yeah, you know, I think one of the interesting things is, you know, looking at businesses and that's one thing that I've been trying to study a lot is you know, what's the factors lead to success in business. And you know, we see that, okay, apparently Lightning (Brewery, Poway CA) is selling all their stuff. Bixby: Yeah. I don't know what, Jim (Crute), I think is too academic or… Lorton: No marketing at all. Bixby: Yeah. I think, I mean, he was a great brewer and all that and I loved it. He was a great guy. Lorton: But did you see Intergalactic (Brewing Company) is looking at maybe getting it, you need to get the West Coaster (San Diego brewing magazine, defunct). Downie: And the Intergalactic website is saying that they are definitely taking a different direction, whether it's to close or… Bixby: No kidding. Lorton: There's an article on it. Link: I heard that last Friday Lorton: And you know, I think the way to go in the future is just do it small. You know, don't they expect to conquer the world? Bixby: You mean don't start thinking Ballast Point billion dollars-ish. I think that's going to do you in, ‘cause we are San Diego and you would like some of our local, um… Lorton: There's also an interview with Jim Crute in that and he says if he was ever to get back in the business it would be as a nanobrewery making a small amount of beer for a localized customer base. Bixby: Like, like local English pub kind of thing made locally. Link: Like this here (Burning Beard Brewery). Bixby: Oh well like, yeah, they don't want to screw this up because this is too close to my house. And I know it's a bit like, I don't even have to go to Santee. I'm right here. Lorton: Like I was telling Judith that El Cajon was pretty much a beer desert. Bixby: Oh, you don't even go there. I know how many times I was like, “Oh, the Bostonia Ballroom (El Cajon, CA), that huge building there. I thought that's a great place for some fun.” Well, no, now I don't know what they're doing over there. Link: Yeah, that area is… Bixby: Don't say that. There's where I live. I don't know what's going on in that area. Link: It’s a commercial area. Bixby: I mean, I don't know what's happening with El Cajon in general. Lorton: It’s a great place to visit, but not to live. (laughter) Bixby: Find me a house in La Mesa so I can walk to a coffee. Lorton: Yeah. But you’re east of that, right? You're closer to Alpine than anybody else here. Bixby: Yeah. I am close to Alpine. Bixby: Yeah. I used to go the Breadbasket all the time when before it was Alpine Brewing. Lorton: Is that right? Bixby: Yeah. Downie: Well, at this point I'm going to end our recording and I want to thank you all for the time and the stories. This has been absolutely fascinating. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinkRich_BixbyMarianne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09.xml LinkRich_BixbyMarianne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview July 9, 2017. Description An account of the resource <span><strong>Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton</strong> are all early members of <strong>Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF)</strong>, a San Diego area homebrewing group. In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Link</strong> wrote for the&nbsp;</span><em>Celebrator Beer News</em><span>&nbsp;magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Lorton</strong> served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Bixby</strong>, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.<br /></span> <p><span data-contrast="auto"><strong>QUAFF</strong> was founded in 1989 for San Diego area homebrewers to learn, improve, and successfully compete with their beers, ciders, meads, and other fermented beverages. The group also assists members with earning national Beer Judge Certification (BJCP) and encourages participation in club-only and external competitions and charity events.&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">QUAFF is noted for sponsoring the America’s Finest City Homebrew Competition. One recipe from the pool of first-place winners considered for Best of Show at this event is selected for production at a local commercial brewery. Participating breweries have included Stone Brewing and AleSmith Brewing. The beers produced include Stone’s Xocovesa, developed by member Chris Banker. The club has garnered awards such as the American Homebrewers Association’s Radegast Award for community involvement and California and National Homebrew Club of the Year Awards, based on competition points earned.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Dozens of QUAFF members have ‘gone pro’ either finding employment in the beer industry in a variety of positions or opening their own brewery. Some have opened breweries in San Diego County and others have moved either elsewhere in California or out of state.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-contrast="auto">As the group has grown, the monthly meetings have moved from member’s homes, to Callahan’s Pub, Karl Strauss Brewery and Gardens, and now meet at The Gärten (Bay Park neighborhood beer garden space shared by Lost Cause Mead, Oddish Wine, and Deft Brewing.)&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Their website is found at </span><a href="https://quaff.org/"><span data-contrast="none">https://quaff.org/</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <span>This recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording.</span> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-054 Subject The topic of the resource Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.) Women brewers -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rich Link Mary Anne Bixby Greg Lorton Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Diania Caudell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Linda Kallas OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KallasLinda_CaudellDiania_2022-12-22_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Kallas, Linda. Interview December 22, 2022 SC027-051 00:39:59 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Arts education Basket making California State University San Marcos Death and rememberance Education -- Native Americans Illustration of books Luiseno Indians Pablo Tac Elementary School (Oceanside, Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Valley Arts Festival (Oceanside, Calif.) Women artists Linda Kallas Diania Caudell KallasLinda_CaudellDiania_2022-12-22_access.mp4 1.0:|18(15)|33(5)|44(15)|58(8)|78(2)|94(7)|108(18)|122(13)|148(14)|161(11)|179(11)|193(6)|209(8)|222(8)|233(11)|256(15)|271(4)|291(3)|303(3)|316(18)|326(3)|338(8)|365(4)|394(4)|412(6)|422(6)|433(7)|460(4)|472(3)|483(6)|499(7)|509(9)|525(4)|536(6)|552(16)|562(8)|575(7)|588(11)|600(7)|618(7) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b51d19e031c6564af02b12943939dc32.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Hellos are exchanged and introductions are said. Diania Caudell ; North County Oral History Initiative ; Linda Kallas 0 47 Early childhood Kallas describes her early childhood in New Jersey, followed by her moving to California. Kallas discusses an automobile accident she was involved in while she was young, as well as brief family introductions to her siblings, stay-at-home mother, and father's alcoholism. California ; Newark, New Jersey ; Automobile accident ; Alcoholism ; Drummer ; Hughes Aircraft 0 158 Elementary education Kallas describes early childhood education where she moved around to seven different elementary schools. Kallas recalls her love of the library and her passion for learning as well as swimming. Kallas also recollects her father's artistic side, and discovering her own love of art through her father. Library ; Youth ; Elementary school ; The Secret Garden ; Darby Dolls ; Art 0 231 Childhood activities Kallas describes her youth in the things she was drawn to, such as swimming, drawing riding bikes. Swimming ; Pool ; Parade ; Bikes ; Draw ; Art ; Paint 0 302 Post high school Kallas describes her life right after high school, with her marriage to her high school sweethart, moving away from her home to Crestline. Kallas also discusses breaking up with future husband, discovering her independence, and then getting back together and starting a family.&#13 ; Marriage ; Graduation ; Snow ; Medical Assistant ; Family ; Sons ; Crestline, California 0 406 Undergraduate and postgraduate education Kallas decides to go back to school, where she received an Associates of Arts degree in Early Childhood Education. She went on to attain two BAs from California State San Marcos, and continued for her master's and became a teacher for almost eighteen years at Jefferson Middle School. AA ; Casa De Emparo ; Teaching ; Master's Degree ; Middle School ; Art ; Drama ; El Camino College ; CSU San Marcos ; National University 0 549 Volunteering at the Oceanside Public Library Kallas describes her time Volunteering at the Oceanside Public Library and the Mission Branch Library. Through these, Kallas helped create the Art for Older Adult program. Kallas has also illustrated a children's book, "Mel and the Blue Arrow," written by Cathleen Chilcote Wallace, a Luiseño storyteller, writer, and elementary school teacher, and a coloring book written by Diania Caudell. Volunteering ; Coloring ; Book ; Oceanside Public Library ; Literacy Center ; Art for older adult Program ; Mission Branch Library ; Mel and the Blue Arrow ; Luiseño Indians 0 670 Living in Oceanside circa 1989 Kallas describes what life was like in Oceanside 1989 ; its rural nature, ease of getting around, and agriculture. The construction of the 76 Freeway prompted a move to a senior community. Kallas discusses the places she likes to visit in Oceanside. Oceanside 1989 ; Farmland ; Pumpkins ; 76 Freeway 0 759 The death of Kallas's son, Jake, and coming to terms with his passing Kallas discusses son Jake who was killed in a car accident in 2010, and while trying to deal with that traumatic experience, found the San Luis Rey Bakery and the flute circle there, where Kallas and her husband joined a new community. Death ; Ivy Ranch ; Hohomi Park ; San Luis Rey Bakery ; Flute Circle ; Commemorative bench ; Luiseño Indians 0 970 Joanne Tawfilis and her murals Kallas talks about muralist Joanne Tawfilis and her work, as well as the Muramid Museum and Arts Center, a UNESCO Peace Center. Muralist ; UNESCO Peace Center ; Joanne Tawfilis ; Uvalde massacre 0 1073 The Literacy Center Kallas describes her with the Oceanside Public Library's Literacy Center, helping developmentally disabled adults. Adult Education ; Literacy Center ; Art ; Language Artist ; Oceanside Public Library 0 1188 Retirement Kallas describes her passions after retirement, such as drawing and opening her own business, Floating Hearts Connections. She also talks about swimming, and meeting with friends. Also the conversation occurs between Linda and Diania of placing Linda's art in the Oceanside Art Walk. Drawing ; Swimming ; Business ; Floating Arts Collections 0 1409 Mentors Caudell asks Kallas about a mentor/role model in Kallas's life. Kallas speaks about her father and his passion for painting, and speaks about how her mother pushed her to become a professor. Kallas also speaks about a couple professors Linda had in college Deborah Small, and Yareli Arizmendi. Kallas also mentions her recent friends that she has made, like Mel, Diania Caudell, and family members. Mentors ; Family ; Professors ; Role Models ; Deborah Small ; Yareli Arizmendi ; Diania Caudell ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 1620 Friendships, basket making, Valley Arts Festival Kallas speaks about her friendship with Mel Vernon (Luiseño), she mentions how close they are and the impact he has had on her life. Also mentions specific moments in their friendship through art. She also speaks to her passion for basket making and how she struggles but enjoys it. Kallas also speaks to the Valley Arts Festival, which just held its second festival. Friendship ; Bond ; Music ; Artword ; Art ; Basket Making ; Valley Arts Festival 0 1976 Proud accomplishments Kallas recalls winning teacher of the year, which she describes as one of her greatest accomplishments. She also mentions how her artwork is something that she is proud of. To this she talks about her long-term goals in in creating a website to market her curriculum, honoring the native California peoples, and writing books, including a new book in honor of her sister. Teacher of the Year ; Books ; Writing 0 2161 Regrets in life Kallas, asked about her regrets in life, brings up her mistakes and how the mistakes are what make you who you are. She also talks about how positive outlets impacted her life, such as yoga and meditation.&#13 ; &#13 ; Regrets ; Mistakes ; Experiences ; Yoga ; Meditation 0 2310 Final thoughts/final message Kallas has a final message to the viewer of the video, as well as a final heartfelt note about her passed son. Goals ; Interests ; Love 0 moving image Oral history interview of Linda Kallas, December 22, 2022. Interview conducted by Diania L. Caudell. Linda Kallas is a retired middles school art and drama teacher who has collaborated with other local artists and authors on a variety of endeavors, including illustrating "Mel and the Blue Arrow" written by Mel Vernon (Luiseño). Kallas and Vernon also collaborated on a Luiseño/English coloring book and on an arts integrated curriculum taught at Pablo Tac Elementary School in Oceanside. Kallas is also on the committee for the Valley Arts Festival that celebrates Luiseño culture each November at Heritage Park, Oceanside. In her interview, Kallas talks to Diania Caudell about topics such as family, school, higher education, post-college life, and her various art and cultural projects. Diania Caudell: Good morning. My name is Diania Caudell and I’m, today I’m interviewing Linda Kallas. And today’s date is December 22, 2022. I’m with the North County Oral History Initiative. And it’s a class that we’re both been taking. And so, this is my 2nd interview. And wish us luck here! Are you ready, Linda? Here we go! Linda Kallas: I’m ready! DC: Okay. We’re going to be starting really simple and everything on that. That’s what they told us to keep it going so to make sure that you’re going to be really at ease. And you can smile when you want to, or whatever. So, let me know. LK: Yeah. DC: Uh, just when and where were you born? LK: I was born in Norton, New Jersey in 1953. And we lived there ‘til I was three and then we moved to California. After I was hit by a car —I have the dent to prove it right here— (rubs the pointer finger of her left hand on a portion of her forehead) I was in traction for several weeks in the hospital. And then my father had an opportunity to be in California for a new job. So, we moved out here. My left leg was three inches shorter. I remember the limp. (paddles her hands in front of her) I don’t remember the accident. I remember the hospital. But the limp—The leg grew and caught up with the other leg. So— DC: You want to tell me a little bit more about your family? LK: Um, my dad was a drummer by profession. And then after he had three of us, three children, and we moved to California, then my sister was born. And having four kids—and my mother was only in her early twenties—they got married really young. He finally got a real job, working as a plumber for a big—I think it was Hughes Aircraft. And then it was—we had a lot of turmoil because of his affliction. He was an alcoholic. And mom was a stay-at-home mom. And then I had two—she had two more boys. So, there were six kids in the family. And then they stayed married ‘til I think I was seventeen. And then they divorced. And that was chaos too. But anyway. DC: Anyway. Okay. Would you like to speak of what school was like for you as a child? LK: Well, we moved a lot. So, I went to like seven different elementary schools. We moved all the time. And I have fond memories of elementary. That’s kind of my safe place to go to, remembering good things. Like I had a teacher in third grade that read us The Secret Garden and that sparked my love of reading. She would read to us every afternoon. And I just loved hearing that story out loud, and then the library at the schools. The library was a safe zone for me. School was my safe zone. And I think that’s why I furthered my education because it was something that made me feel good. Learning, I loved learning. So, but, so there wasn’t really anything negative at school for me, other than high school and the cliques and the—you know how that is. (Diania chuckles) I stayed away from cliques. I was friends with everyone. I never fit in to one little group. I just always was friends with everyone. So— DC: On the activities when you were a child, I mean, what were you drawn to mostly, other than the reading and the library wizard? LK: Swimming, because we finally moved into a house with a pool. And I swam every day. That was my—I just loved— to this day, I love to swim. Mom always tried to get me to be like a cheerleader. She forced me to do—it was called “Darby Dolls” (makes air quotes with her hands). They were just pom-pom girls. (motions as if waving pom-poms) And I was in a parade and I remember just being miserable. Just, that just was not me. Because I was a tomboy. I wanted to do what the boys did, ride bikes. I wanted to have a paper route. Girls were not allowed then to have paper routes. So, swimming was really one of the things I loved to do. And I drew. I always loved to draw. My father also was a visual artist. And I remember watching him paint murals on the wall. And it just seemed magical to me that he could tace this blank space and all of a sudden there’s a bush there or a tree there. So, I think I learned my love of art through him. And that was part of his recovery when he would sober up. That’s what he would do. He would paint. DC: Now, one of the things though, from high school, you went on to college? What— LK: No. DC: No? LK: No. Not right out of high school. (shakes her head) DC: Okay. LK: No. I married my high school sweetheart. (Diania chuckles) Not married right away. We got together in ’71 —’70 was our first date. And then I graduated in ’71. And then we moved in together and we lived in Crestline, the mountains, for almost a year. But we were so dumb. (Diania laughs) We’re southern California brats, right? We didn’t know anything about living in the snow. So, I remember when we got our first electric bill and gas bill. And I went “You have to pay for that???” I thought it just came with the house. (Diania chuckles) So, um, that was quite the experience. And then we broke up for a year and I lived on my own, which was a really important turning point. I became a medical assistant, and I learned that I could take care of myself. I didn’t need to have another person to take care of me. And then we got back together. And then we decided to get married five years later and start a family. So, we have two sons. And that was it! Two boys. That was enough. (both laugh) DC: So, when did you decide to actually go back to school? LK: Not ‘til after the birth of my first son. You know, a lot of things came natural to me, coming from a big family and being the oldest girl. I had to tace care of the younger siblings most of the time. So, the baby stage, and nursing them, and all that stuff came really natural. But when they became—when Josh became a toddler, I was like “Now what do you do with them?” You know, I’d play with them, and I wanted to learn more about child development. That’s what sparked me to go back to school. So, I got an AA in Early Childhood Education. And then I changed fields and worked in that field for years, through my second son too. And then, even when we moved here from L.A., I was a director of a crisis day care center, Casa de Emparo. So, that AA degree served me really well. I was able to make a living doing it. But then, there’s only—you couldn’t go any further than being a director unless I wanted to become a teacher of it. So, then I started helping out at the elementary schools with my boys. And I really loved that. And so, that’s what sparked me further and to get a teaching credential and then wind up teaching for almost twenty years and got a master’s degree in education, so— And I taught Art and Drama at the middle school level. And that was really, really fun. DC: So, did you go to a local college when you were down here? LK: I went to—I got my AA in L.A. at El Camino College. And then when we moved here, I’d gotten my BA—well, I have two BAs at Cal State San Marcos. And the master’s degree—I call it my drive-through. I shouldn’t say this. My drive-through master’s is through National University. DC: So, you were alone out here, right from Cal State San Marcos? LK: Yep. Mm-hmm. I am. DC: Yeah. Good for you. Okay. So, you’re one of the originals that were here on the campus. LK: Yes. DC: It was pretty small. Was it small? LK: Before the campus, they were in the Jerome's Shopping Center. That’s where I took my first classes. And I got the teaching credential through Cal State San Marcos as well. It took me a really, really long time because I did everything part-time. I still worked, had the kids, and then did schooling part-time. So, I was 44 before I ever stepped foot in my own classroom. DC: And then after that, you did it for how many years? LK: Almost 18. I was at Jefferson Middle School for almost 18 years. DC: And Jefferson is located where? LK: It’s Oceanside Unified School District. It’s in the older part of Oceanside . DC: And so, up to today you’re still with education in some forms. LK: Yes. I started volunteering at the library, the Oceanside Public Library at the Literacy Center. And I really loved doing that. And then I went to the Mission branch library and got with Jenna Lease. And we created the Art for Older Adult program. And that’s at the senior center in El Corazon. And next year, we’ll be at both senior centers. I also write curriculum which, Mel (Vernon), my interviewee’s brother (Diania chuckles), he wrote a book called Mel and the Blue Arrow and asked me to illustrate it. So, I did. And so, we’ve been selling that. And then we approached Pablo Tac Elementary School. They recently changed the name to that. And he—I proposed this curriculum based on Mel and the Blue Arrow. And then, with Diania, I put together a coloring book. Diania helped me with the translation. It’s in Luiseño and English. And that’s been very successful. So, the students will get Mel and the Blue Arrow and the coloring book. So, we start teaching there in February. DC: Twenty? LK: 2023. DC: 2023. Okay, when—for me, you know, and in it, being able to interview you, I mean it’s an honor to be with you and learn from you. But some of the questions on here, you know, you’ve been in this region here in Southern California, not just L.A., but down here in San Diego County for how long? LK: Since 1989. DC: So, 1989. So, you’ve seen changes that have affected where you’re living at or in the area. Are any of them for you positive, that you’ve enjoyed watching the change? Or is it some things that are coming through that are—feel like the region is getting too crowded? Or how do you feel about it? LK: It’s so different than when we moved down. Part of the attraction to this, to Oceanside was we lived in a condominium that overlooked the Mission. But that was all fields and there was farmland. And you would walk across the street and buy fresh pumpkins. There was a farm stand. We could walk to the river and float on the river. We can’t do any of that anymore. There’s buildings, buildings. The 76, we moved here before the 76 was completed. And they kept saying “Oh, they’ll never build it. It’s been on the books for years.” Well, they built it. And it was literally—you could throw a stone from our condo. The noise level was unbearable. That’s what prompted us to move to, now we live in a senior community, which is very quiet (Diania laughs) which we really like. And the streets are really wide. (both laugh) The neighbors are really nice. And so, we kind of found our niche there. DC: So, do you have favorite places in the community there in Oceanside or around the surrounding areas? LK: Well, my husband’s a surfer so we love the beach. We go to the harbor quite often to visit the bench of our youngest son. Did you want me to talk about that? DC: It’s up to you. LK: Our youngest son, twelve years ago, was killed in a car accident. And so, we placed a bench at the harbor, right across from the boat launch, in his memory. So, we go there quite often and sit on the bench and talk to Jake. I love a lot of the area there. I love Heritage Park. I love Ivy Ranch Parks. We love parks. Hohomi Park. All the parks we frequent quite often. I enjoy going to the Mission just because of the grounds more than anything. I feel like I’m walking in history when I go there. Having learned what I’ve learned about the Luiseños, it’s a way of honoring the memory of the Luiseños there on that land. It’s sacred land but not sacred because the mission is there. It’s sacred land because there was a village there. And I’ve learned a lot and learned to appreciate history in that way. DC: Well, one of the things that I think I’ve heard you talk about that’s unique is—okay, talk about when you go to the bakery, San Luis Rey Bakery. What was happening there when you first was going through there. LK: Oh. The bakery. (Diania laughs) After Jake died in 2010, the anguish was unbelievable. I’ve never experienced anything like that before or since. And I’ve been through a lot being raised the way I was raised. But that was just—that was like a part of my soul was taken and my identity. All of a sudden, I was searching online all the time for things to get my head on, out of the place it was in, and all of a sudden, this announcement popped up of a flute circle at the San Luis Rey Bakery. And I went (opens her mouth wide as if in awe) “Jim, we’re going to go to that.” (Diania chuckles) So, we went. It was about, not maybe a year later, I think. And Mel is the one that started that. And so, we started going faithfully every month. And little by little just the healing of that sound and the camaraderie of the people, and the friend—They were so friendly. Everybody was just so warm and friendly, and we just kind of felt like we fit there. And so, we went until— It wasn’t Covid hit, really. But through that, I became friends with Mel. That’s where we started talking about the book. And I became friends with Diania and other people, Marge and Rob, and the people that frequent the flute circle. And it just was—had a really, really positive influence on me. DC: Did you try to play the flute? LK: I have a flute and I do have one little tune I keep working on. DC: You should have brought it! (Linda laughs) We could have played it. Now, I’m going to get you to play the flute. LK: It’s not for public consumption. (both laugh) I probably wouldn’t be able to hit one note. (motions with her hands as if pressing on a flute) DC: Yeah. With the, you know, living there in the valley and seeing the different changes. You know, like you just talked about, and the flute circle is not there anymore. It’s not that they don’t want it. It’s just that the capacity and the people have gone on to other things. LK: Mm-hmm. (nods her head) DC: There is a unique area right next door also that you’re involved in. You want to talk about that a little bit? LK: Are you talking about the Muramid Museum? DC: Yes. Yes. LK: With Joanne Tawfilis? Um, yes. Joanne is a muralist. And she does murals for any occasion. But she usually honors, I guess, tragic events. So, if some kind of tragedy happens, she paints a mural. And then, she sends it to that place. The most recent was Uvalde in Texas when that crazy person shot all those children. But I help her with murals. She does other unique things as well. But murals seem to be her niche in life. And she’s also in the UNESCO Peace Center there. And one of these days we’ll have a grand opening, when the landlord signs off on it (motions as if signing something with her right hand) And she does different events there, like her partner is a drummer, so they do African drumming every Saturday. And she’ll have events there to honor things that are going on, like she just did her birthday event. That was quite unique. DC: I know that other things that you work with the community, you know, not just like the Muramid, but I’d like you to stress your art, involvement really with the art. It’s unique, you know, I think. So, you’ve shared other things that I wasn’t aware of, you know. And I think that’s unique for us to learn. But can you specify what you do there at the centers there in Oceanside with the— LK: Are you thinking of Studio Ace? DC: No, no. The one down in Oceanside by the library? What’s that center? LK: Oh, the Literacy Center. DC: Yes! Yes. LK: The Literacy Center, I work with developmentally disabled adults. We started a Read-and-Draw Program. So, I did a whole year of character education with them. So, I would bring in posters where they were learning art literacy, visual literacy as well. But each poster had to do with a character trait, for example, like compassion, or caring, or integrity. So, they got a different character trait that they learned. And then we would involve poetry. So, we would write poems. They would do a little drawing lesson and learn to talk about art. And they learned a lot. And so, we’re going to continue that next year. We’re changing the name to, which I really like, “Language Artist.” So, they’ll get—and it’s going to be based on the LeBrons art. He’s an abstract expressionist artist. And so, we’ll look at his art and then I’ll teach them a lesson. And then, they’ll write something. So, it’s all about literacy. And then, also, I’ve been involved with Studio Ace since its inception. I’ve been Julia’s advisor, consultant, whatever you want to call it. I set up programs for her at Laurel Elementary. And before Pablo Tac was Pablo Tac, it was San Luis Rey Elementary. So, two schools I wrote curriculum for, trained two teachers and then they took over. But, after that, I just would kind of consult with her, and we created some classes together for the library. And then I transferred from working with her to working with the library directly. DC: So, there’s going to be some changes in your life soon. But how has your life’s path evolved and changed over the years? LK: I think since I’ve retired, when you teach art or drama for that matter, the last thing you want to do when you go home is more of it because you’re so involved with it all day, seven and a half hours a day. So, that part of my life has really increased as far as my drawing, and doing art on my own, just for myself. But now, I want to tace that venture a little further and I’m going to—well, I’ve opened my own business. And so, I’m still going to be offering all the same things I offer right now—workshops, art lessons, curriculum, whatever people need, healing arts. I have a whole repertoire of stuff that I can offer. But it will be under the title of “Floating Hearts Connections.” And even that has meaning to it. Floating hearts is actually an aquatic plant, and the leaves are shaped like a heart and then this little yellow flower comes up. And it has five petals. And that has meaning to me because I told you before, I love to swim. Well, when I’m done swimming, my favorite thing to do is to float. And so, with that in mind, I was looking for names and talked with my husband, talked with you, talked with Mel. And they said—all of you said I have to include something heart felt because that’s what I do. I collaborate with people and provide healing through the arts. And so, when I found that, I went “Oh my gosh! Heart, floating, arts” and then the connections that I make. And floating is an acronym also for the love of hearts in teaching. So, it all just kind of fits it. And so, I have a little logo that I’m working on, and I have the business license. And I’ve got the insurance. I’m a vendor with the city of Oceanside now. So, eventually I’ll do a website and have like business cards. I’ll be all official. (Diania chuckles) So, I can go anywhere and do it. I don’t have to just stay in Oceanside. DC: Are you going to, at some point, be part of that art—is it the art walk, or whatever it is there in Oceanside with a booth or anything showing— LK: Oh. (sighs) DC: —what you’re going to be doing? LK: I hadn’t thought about doing that. DC: Yeah. LK: Maybe. I don’t know. It’s on my favorite— DC: Floating hearts. I can see it already, you know. I picture it, you know, on your canopy and the whole thing. LK: Well, Diania, to tell you the truth, I hadn’t considered it. (Diania laughs) But I do reach out to the organizations. Like I did a mural for Ivy Ranch Horse Park. And that was successful. And then Preserve Calavera, I did one. So, I do reach out to other organizations. But I hadn’t thought about doing it monthly at Art Walk. But I will consider it. DC: And once you get your logo going. LK: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the stuff I do is volunteer. DC: Oh, yes. Yes. LK: So, that I think you have to pay. I’m not sure. But I can find out. I may have to pay for a table to do that. But I don’t know. DC: (chuckles) We’ve got some more things in there. LK: (coughs) Excuse me. DC: Some of these questions that I’m reading for this class and things, you know, I can talk more, and it depends on how personal you want to, you know, get into there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Like is there any mentors that you had through your life that have gotten you, you know, from one stage to another? You know, you can go back on— I look at it, you can go back on your life and, you know, from your childhood and, you know, the turmoil at one point. And you must have had some type of mentor. You did mention a teacher, you know, at that point. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then, almost everyone had some type in their stage that they don’t realize. There’s that mentor or that one person that it made a difference, either by saying something or doing something. Is there any mentor that you feel has helped you throughout your life? LK: That encouraged— DC: That encouraged you, that have gotten you to where you’re at today, and you want to speak about them or just mention them, you know, there, and how they helped you at each different phase in your life. LK: Well, dad was probably my first inspiration. Like I said, it was magical to watch him paint. Mom discouraged it. She didn’t—I guess she was worried that I was going to tace a path of no return or something. But she always wanted me to become a professional person. And it was interesting. We had a conversation on the phone one time. She said, “I always thought you’d be this professional businesswoman.” And I started laughing. And she’s all, “What’s so funny?” I said, “I am a professional, mom. I’m a teacher.” She goes, “Oh, not that kind of profession.” Like it was—she kind of thought of it as babysitting, I guess, in her own mind. She never looked at teaching as a profession. So, I think that got my dander up even more as far as “Well, I’ll show you.” But then, in college, I had many professors. Deborah Small was one of them, Yareli Arizmendi, many professors that saw talent and encouraged it in me, gave me more confidence, especially with theater. Yareli is a professional actress, and she was the professor there at Cal State San Marcos for a while. Her classes were fantastic, and I had a starring role in one of the plays we performed around the city. But Deborah Small, she kind of ventured off into computer art, which I found was not my niche. I preferred drawing. I’m a drawer. I don’t consider myself a painter. I draw everything. I can paint, and I can use color. But there’s something about a pencil and paper I love. So, there were colleagues , principals that I worked with that saw in me things that I didn’t know I had. But, most recently, it’s been people like you, Diania, and Mel in particular, Joanne, my husband, my son. My grandkids, Ty and Katie, are very important influencers in my life. And they’re like my biggest fans, so a lot of family. But a lot of—I think the friends I have now are the closest friends that, compared to past friends when I was younger, it’s different making friends at this age. It’s a much deeper level or something. It’s not superficial at all. So, I thank all of you for that. But I think the one who has pushed me the hardest has been your brother. DC: (laughs. Linda nods her head.) Well, he’s, to me—I’m just going to let you know—this was the interview going back and forth, and we’re talking here—is that he sees something in you, and he connect. And I think it’s the—you both are talented artists. He’s in the music field. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you show at your artwork, you know. You can express it through art. He expresses himself through music. LK: Yes. DC: And I think the two of you make a good compare because you bounce off each other, like brother and sister. It’s, you know, on that. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s not like, you know, husband and wife. It’s more like a brother and sister type of thing. LK: Yeah. Yeah. DC: And you’re, you know—it’s good. And you can speak freely to each other, and it’s good. I think I’ve seen the growth in both of you on that. There’s other things that you have joined us with, you know, but you don’t mention it. You want to say another type of artwork that you try to get into (laughs). LK: Yeah, absolutely. But that’s only through you trusting me and seeing something in me that I didn’t know there either. Like basketry has been phenomenal. I just—I love it! And I love the process. I love watching the people do it. I enjoy helping you, and just the joy it brings people to put together a basket. You don’t think about that as being something people will be drawn to. But they are. And they’re just kind of one with their basket as they’re creating it, and the joy that is coming from them and the healing. Because like I tell my students, when you’re doing art, any kind of art, it’s just you and that piece. Whatever it is you’re working on, your mind is still going, and the problems are still there. But it takes a back seat because you are so focused on what you’re creating. And that’s where the healing begins, is—And basketry is like that. Something about going over, under, over, under (laughs) and getting it right, getting the tension right. It’s so important. It’s just really—The other thing that we’re involved in is the Valley Arts Festival which is—Julia started—well, she got a grant. And when she got the grant, she wanted to know what we should focus on. And her and I had talked about different cultures for many years. We wanted to do these things. And so, I mentioned the Luiseños because I’ve become close with you and Mel. And so, I introduced Mel to her and you to her, I think. And that’s where it went. We just started meeting and planning the Valley Arts Festival which is—We just did our second one, and it was a huge success. And so, hopefully, that’s going to continue every year whether she gets that grant or not. We need to continue it because we’re educating the community about just acknowledging the fact that the Luiseños were here ten or twelve thousand years before the encroachment of the white people. (both laugh) DC: It should be that way. But when are you going to go? I knew you’d say something about the basketry, you know. But that’s not the Luiseño. That’s not our traditional. That’s more the Cherokee style. What do you feel about learning when you have to sit down and you’re weaving with us, with traditional? LK: That is a challenge because the materials are so—You’re very precise about what materials are used for what part. And it took me a long time to learn even the names, the juncus, the—wait a minute. I’ll get it in a minute. DC: (whispers something) Yucca. LK: Yucca! (both laugh) That is the one I always forget! Always. But what you use for what part of the basket. And the starting is difficult, but I find the weaving, getting it precise and even and even the width of it. Like I have to take it out because the one I started is—I went too thick too soon. But the beauty of it and using the natural materials, there’s something about manipulating that natural material. But what I focus on when I’m working with you, I think this is what they did. They had time to do this, like and it was important because they used—They were functional art. They used the baskets for everyday things. And our culture, we just go and buy what we need. We didn’t have to worry about sitting and making something that could hold berries or hold whatever it was you were going to gather. It’s fascinating to me to be able to learn to do that. Because you can buy a kit and do a little basket online, you know, buy a kit online and do a basket. But to do it from the natural materials—Because you have permission to go and gather that material, the real thing, authentic. I guess that’s what it is. It’s the authenticity of it. That’s what’s so wonderful about it. DC: On some of the bigger picture here, what do you think some of your greatest accomplishments are, you know, up to this point in your life? What do you feel? LK: Uh, it’s hard. You know me, Diania. I’m not (unintelligible word). DC: I doubt, I mean, you know—when you think about your greatest accomplishments, you lost one. LK: Well, my two sons, absolutely. My two grandchildren. I have two step grandsons now too . My son is remarried. I’m really proud of all of them. They’ve come so far. But in my working world, I think some of my greatest accomplishments were getting Teacher of the Year three times and being runner up for county Teacher of the Year. I came in second or something like that. That was very—I was really honored by that. And so, I’ve gotten a lot of awards for teaching. And so, I’m proud of that. What I’m learning to become proud of is my own artwork, believe it or not. I’m not one to brag or toot my own horn but I am progressing, and I am getting much more confident about creating my own art. DC: But do you have any plans still for your life, you know, in the future? I mean, you’ve gotten your business . Now you’re doing this. Do you see the plans, how it’s going to go into the future? I mean, how’s it going to broaden for you in helping you within in your, you know, I’d call it your second career, your third career. How do you feel about that in your life? LK: What are my hopes for that? What do I hope to achieve? DC: Mm-hmm. LK: Long range goal, I would love to create a website and be able to market things that I create like the curriculum. I would love to market the Mel and the Blue Arrow curriculum because I think it’s really good and solid. And I would love for teachers throughout the county to be able to use it, particularly in North County where the Luiseños—this is the traditional land—because that will further the education of the people that live here, of the people that were here prior to us. And learning how they lived and honoring them as a people instead of somebody that we just kind of pushed out of the way is what I feel like we did with the indigenous people. And then, possibly, I’m writing another book. It’s called The Adventure of Big Pig. It’s about a guinea pig and that’s in honor of my sister who is suffering from a fatal illness. And I hope to get that done before—And even if I have to self-publish that as well, I will, just so she can have that. And I’m really close with her. She lives in Colorado. So, this is a difficult time. But that’s in honor of her. So, things like that. I hope to further writing. I write an article a month for Indian Voices, thanks to your brother Mel. (Diania chuckles) And that’s been challenging but also uniquely fun. It’s fun on a different level. DC: What do you think—Not to wrap it up or anything but is there any regrets within your life or you could have changed something differently at any point, you know, in your life? I, you know, I don’t like asking that question, personally, because I don’t think people should have regrets. But some people can look at life differently, you know. And it’s hindsight, but you can’t change anything. But is there anything that you would probably feel that could have been better or you could have did something differently? LK: I don’t look at it as regrets. I look at the past mistakes that I made. I would have made—There are different things. I would have made different choices. But what I’ve learned, by the age of 69, is all of those mistakes and all of the experiences you go through is what brings you to where you are right now. And had you not gone through those trials and tribulations and the mistakes, you would be different. I would be different. So, I have a different philosophy about it now. I just think everything we go through in life is going to take us to a different place and change us in a way that we need to change. And I also have learned through yoga and meditation to be grateful for even the bad things because it’s an opportunity to learn and it’s an opportunity for growth. And that’s kind of how I view things, and I wake up feeling grateful and I go to sleep feeling grateful. And I think that’s a gift we give ourselves because when you’re grateful, you can go out in the world and share that gift with others. And so, I try to practice that daily. So, yes, mistakes, but we all make them. We’re only human. (Diania chuckles) What do you expect from us? (Both laugh) DC: Is there anything that you want to let the people know that, you know, when they do view this recording and you’re going to be put in an archive. And if a student comes by or another person comes by and wants to know who Linda Kallas was and what she had done, is there anything you want to share with that person or group in this interview right now. You did do a little bit now, but is there anything more you want to say to kind of wrap it up to where you feel why this was important to do? LK: Well, I think one thing would be never, never give up. Never quit on a dream or an aspiration. You’re never too old to try something new. Never. Unless you physically cannot do it, physically. But, you know, to always keep learning in any capacity you can. Pursue interests. Pursue what interests you because there’s so much out there to gain knowledge on. But never give up. Never quit. You can’t quit. I sure wanted to when my son died. But I didn’t and I’m glad I didn’t. And everything I do now is in honor of him and the love for him and the love we shared as mother/son because that does not die. The physical person goes away. But the love you share with another person never dies. DC: Well, thank you, Linda. I really enjoyed doing this and I enjoyed my friendship and everything. I hope it’s going to continue on. And so, we both have grown together and shared some things that I know you didn’t share with, you know. We’ve got De Loos. We’ve got different places I’ve taken you, regarding into the Indian world, or you want to say that on there. But I’m going to wrap it up and say “No $uun Looviq.” LK: No $uun Looviq. DC: No $uun Looviq. LK: Thank you so much, Diania. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KallasLinda_CaudellDiania_2022-12-22_access.xml KallasLinda_CaudellDiania_2022-12-22_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kallas, Linda. Interview December 22, 2022. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Linda Kallas, December 22, 2022. Interview conducted by Diania L. Caudell. Linda Kallas is a retired middle school art and drama teacher who has collaborated with other local artists and authors on a variety of endeavors, including illustrating "Mel and the Blue Arrow" written by Mel Vernon (Luiseño). Kallas and Vernon also collaborated on a Luiseño/English coloring book and on an arts integrated curriculum taught at Pablo Tac Elementary School in Oceanside. Kallas is also on the committee for the Valley Arts Festival that celebrates Luiseño culture each November at Heritage Park, Oceanside. In her interview, Kallas talks to Diania Caudell about topics such as family, school, higher education, post-college life, and her various art and cultural projects. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-051 Subject The topic of the resource Arts education Basket making California State University San Marcos Death and remembrance Education -- Native Americans Illustration of books Luiseño Indians Pablo Tac Elementary School (Oceanside, Calif.) Valley Arts Festival (Oceanside, Calif.) Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-12-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Linda Kallas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Diania Caudell Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Linda Kallas Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeff Bagby OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018 SC027-053 01:43:40 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. ; Brewing industry -- California -- History. ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Judith Downie wav BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.wav 2.0:|41(19)|72(13)|103(3)|151(11)|178(14)|221(15)|243(5)|289(4)|324(6)|347(16)|379(11)|410(7)|445(4)|482(14)|520(6)|552(9)|599(3)|638(13)|690(5)|734(8)|778(14)|816(6)|852(16)|878(9)|908(9)|934(6)|967(13)|1020(9)|1072(7)|1110(6)|1143(5)|1193(13)|1230(4)|1305(12)|1351(6)|1413(11)|1446(14)|1495(8)|1528(9)|1557(6)|1579(6)|1605(14)|1638(15)|1679(13)|1708(9)|1739(16)|1769(10)|1804(11)|1855(11)|1906(12)|1941(10)|1981(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a2147e643ec83629c21ffe9df0d387b8.wav Other audio English oral history Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. &#13 ; &#13 ; Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. &#13 ; &#13 ; In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer ; homebrewing ; introduction of craft beer to the region ; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s ; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery ; packaging and distribution ; charity work ; competitions, judging, and awards ; consumer education. Holly Sweat: Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.) Judith Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get. So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer or how did he get into the beer industry and--? Jeff Bagby: Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school, younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the flavors. Liked the idea-- Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--? J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it. Downie: Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up? J Bagby: Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-- Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year? J Bagby: Uh, (19)93. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer), Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs) Downie: Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)? J Bagby: There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg (Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having, you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting. Downie: Right. Yeah. J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know, whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know? Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school, came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs. Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked beer. Still went to festivals and— Downie: What was your degree in? J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in the school. It is not really my thing. Downie: But you completed it, so “Yay” for you. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (Dande Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid pretty well. And I could probably get one quick. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs) Dande Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too. J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blah-blah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no— Downie: Exactly. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or— Downie: (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you were saying you needed work now. J Bagby: Exactly. Downie: Which is certainly understandable. J Bagby: Exactly. D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs) J Bagby: So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh) D Bagby: Just saying! J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company. And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well, obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before. Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer. Drove beer truck for three months. And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's still my Stone rep(resentative) today. Downie: Oh my gosh. J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And “What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” He was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today. Downie: When it was a struggle. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time. Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things. J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-- Downie: There is still some special barriers. J Bagby: When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find somebody that doesn't know what that is. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know? The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona, it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we have to offer. And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs) professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you know? And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in (19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was still working at Stone. Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well. Downie: So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs? J Bagby: That was probably (19)99? Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-- Downie: As a brewer? J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know. Downie: Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--? J Bagby: No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.) Downie: Okay. J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much, much smaller than where they are now. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender there-- Downie: And who was head brewer at the time? J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then— Downie: Well, it shows the value of networking— J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference. J Bagby: There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing) now, when he was still in Temecula back then. Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then. J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know, going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really cool stuff. And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference, every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like, “Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others. It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs) So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. That was more beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today. Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that company. All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs) Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know? And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've enjoyed that aspect of it. I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's funny that both of us have had that come true- Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff. So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs, you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this? What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a brewery and I'd want to help support them. So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries. But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. And somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and, you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense. Downie: Yeah, it does. J Bagby: Cool. Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh) What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-- J Bagby: Good question. Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish? J Bagby: Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs) D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going. J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red Kettle. D Bagby: The (19)80s? J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any more information on that. Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking. J Bagby: There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas neighborhood made it look cool there. But building situation fell through. We had spent some time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So, we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. And the landlord--we had never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It was an old Safeway or something, I think. D Bagby: It was a grocery store. J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-- Downie: As a hometown boy. J Bagby: (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely— D Bagby: Several months. J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it. D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go. And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and... J Bagby: Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower, you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” So, we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. We're trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part. Downie: Yeah (laughs). J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt it— Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't tell what was exactly going on over here. You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?” D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs) J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car, come down here.” (all laugh) D Bagby: It’s basically what happened. J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that. D Bagby: Because of our experience in the industry. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry. J Bagby: We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be easy for their somebody to just take it over. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-- D Bagby: By their broker, yeah. J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like, “Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said, “Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it. D Bagby: Much to their credit, honestly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-- J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values. And, yeah, much to— Downie: Their European background. D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying. Downie: Yeah. D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think. (Downie D Bagby laugh) J Bagby: It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it. D Bagby: At least. J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go, “Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just--the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great one, just because of the nature of the industry. D Bagby: It can’t. J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.” They're full of shit. D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way. J Bagby: Yeah, you just-- D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it. Downie: Now did your general have any background in building a brewery? J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants. J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were attracted to him for. D Bagby: Small company also--J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like thisD Bagby: Had worked with the architect— J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email from him last week, which was--D Bagby: A little late. J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they weren't equipped. D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that. J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to the engineers, to talk to the-- D Bagby: The building inspectors. J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. And there's obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to the general contractor. Downie: Oh dear. J Bagby: And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago. D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: When we thought we’d be done, especially. J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So, it was very-- D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business. J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and they all want food and beer. Downie: Excellent. D Bagby: Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously, there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: Because they are spending money. Downie: Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back? D Bagby: Yeah, of course. Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going. D Bagby: That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. The people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before, because we're trying to— J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute. D Bagby: Okay. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting. D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste? J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) D Bagby: Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until— Downie: But you've been disappointed once already so-- D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested— D Bagby: Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is good. Downie: Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.” D Bagby: Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a small, very small and growing company. When I first was hired by them, they had one location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high. I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walk-up counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat employees, all of that stuff began then. And it was my first real job was there. And I worked there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San Marcos (California State University San Marcos). Downie: My goodness. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr. Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for SDG&amp ; E (San Diego Gas &amp ; Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not. Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background. Downie: Right. D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in environmental science. So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me. So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and, even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer. And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. So, he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. And so it created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right. We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently? What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean, everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biology-biologist into brewery owner. Downie: Everybody comes from somewhere. D Bagby: That’s right. Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry. D Bagby: That’s awesome. Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and things, so… D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-- D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: The whole world of beer. D Bagby: Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from (Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement. Downie: How many employees do you have? D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We--when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred employees at one point. Downie: Wow. D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people. J Bagby: Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. D Bagby: No J Bagby: Nothing. D Bagby: No, no. J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah. Downie: And you're still standing. D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep. Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but— J Bagby: We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even touched--(speaking at the same time) D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah. Downie: You’re kidding. D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So you have expansion elbow room. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know, distribution or canning or--? J Bagby: So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing. And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-- D Bagby: Beautiful. J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind, especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three. Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or as intense as packaging. What else, what else? D Bagby: We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor anywhere. J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible). D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible). J Bagby: We’re not sending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.) D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool. J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs) D Bagby: There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding. J Bagby: And he called me during the party. D Bagby: Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their business model and that's what they think is awesome. Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more-- J Bagby: Or just staying where they are. D Bagby: Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.” So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email. J Bagby: That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste. More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like to taste them on tap.” D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs) J Bagby: I'm the rep. D Bagby: We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s, it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were—it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it. Volume volume. Get it.” Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.” So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs) Downie: Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property? J Bagby: So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease. Downie: Okay. Downie: It was very protective. D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that, you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands. D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered. J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal. D Bagby: Something else called that. J Bagby: Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of behind the alley-- D Bagby: West of us. J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments. J Bagby: I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-- D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission. Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it. D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-- J Bagby: We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And (the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So, (whispers) sorry about that. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential, we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues. J Bagby: I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know, “I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know, I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that, you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it. D Bagby: Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it. I would be upset too, probably, but— Downie: But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy. D Bagby: Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Sweat: I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have to run. D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic. Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs) Downie: It should be pretty good by now. Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything. Downie: Thank you, Holly. D Bagby: Thanks Holly. Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive. Sweat: Thank you, I know. D Bagby: I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are asking and we just have had a crazy few days. Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party. D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs) Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun. D Bagby: It was a lot of fun. Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get them to see. D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total? Or selection? Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for. D Bagby: I can’t remember. Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: That we agreed upon. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: But yeah. D Bagby: Thank you. Sweat: It’s nice to see you both. D Bagby: You too. Drive safe. Downie: So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t (unintelligible)--. J Bagby: Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more questions, for sure. Downie: You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh) J Bagby: It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them. And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say, “Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that. Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs) J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this, this, this, and this.” Downie: Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because (unintelligible). D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved. J Bagby: Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back at Pizza Port. Downie: Is that Brewbies? J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost fifty thousand dollars for charity. Downie: Wow. Wonderful. J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now, and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily great for the charity. There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there, go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,” you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC license is supposed to go to the charity. Downie: Right. J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of. Downie: Right. J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home, clean it all. And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately. Downie: But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked about how much learning you've had to do along this path. D Bagby: We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though. J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things. D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and— J Bagby: And the dogs, yeah. D Bagby: So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But yeah, I think as a— J Bagby: Firefighter-- D Bagby: Pint Project. J Bagby: Yeah. A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to be careful. D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly. Downie: Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no. D Bagby: Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that. J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course. D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people— J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.” D Bagby: Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they should. Downie: Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going to start coming down and— D Bagby: Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’ sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs) Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help. Downie: So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're active in or are members of--? J Bagby: We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um— D Bagby: CCBA. J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association of America. D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the— J Bagby: San Diego. D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that. J Bagby: I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international stuff, but yeah. Downie: Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you? J Bagby: (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that. Downie: Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition? D Bagby: Good question. J Bagby: That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone, but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers. Downie: Okay. You were an assistant. J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs) Downie: Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)? J Bagby: She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska Beer and Barleywine Festival. Downie: Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here. J Bagby: It's a very long running, very famous festival. Downie: I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh, well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe. Downie: Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be put together. But have you ever done judging? J Bagby: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF. It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in National. Downie: Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that? J Bagby: I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side. You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixty-something categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition. They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that has five locations. You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so, everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. The problems I see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category: American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category before. And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to only pass on three beers.” So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges. They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably could still be done. And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually win medals. They’re medal-winning beers. Downie: Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind. J Bagby: Sorry. I know. Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs) J Bagby: With the competition, or--? Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed. Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?” J Bagby: Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma, mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range, color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter something that doesn’t fit? Downie: Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs) J Bagby: Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went, “What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,” that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,” but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style beer. Downie: And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?” J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the— J Bagby: Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-- Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles. J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare, more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery, and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs) Downie: Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised. J Bagby: Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different ways, for sure. Downie: Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know, when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time. Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people? J Bagby: I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know, whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,” which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know? Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody, that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you smell on that? What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter, or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh, Extra Special Bitter. Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well, it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal, spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I really liked that.” Downie: And it makes it more accessible. J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go, “Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got this, this, and this.” And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. You know, there's some newer, crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it. Downie: It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others? J Bagby: There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new, exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts, we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’ hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.) Downie: And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to stick with the more--? J Bagby: No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Downie: Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a small system that you can do little test batches on? J Bagby: No, it’s— D Bagby: It’s all or nothing. Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again. J Bagby: Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it. So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent. It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy. But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online comment. Downie: Oh dear. (laughs) J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs) D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone. J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it. Downie: One person's interpretation. J Bagby: Exactly, exactly. Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-- J Bagby: Yeah, we (unintelligible)-- D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time. J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we sold that at eight ounces at a time. D Bagby: Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also. J Bagby: (Unintelligible). D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good. Downie: So, do you have much of a barrel aging program? J Bagby: We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh. Downie: Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs) J Bagby: Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or-- D Bagby: Cupcakes. J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal. Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works. J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our barrels. Yeah. Downie: Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've very, very, very much appreciated your time. D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure. J Bagby: If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or her and follow up. Downie: Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something. D Bagby: Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing, and also-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-- J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun. D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in construction stuff, and crazy things like that. Downie: I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to change with every city you’re dealing with. D Bagby: But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time. And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain, some of the pain points.” J Bagby: Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a ten-barrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping, I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. And the different specs on all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well, he didn't really need to do that. You could of—” D Bagby: Get by. J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say. Downie: You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well, we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.” D Bagby: Oh no. Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)— J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs) Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah. D Bagby: That’s too bad. Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong. J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible). D Bagby: And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one. And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah. Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will. J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. So, a lesson to live by. D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much. Downie: Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018. Description An account of the resource Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-053 Subject The topic of the resource Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Holly Sweat Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madeleine Meyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diana Saldivar OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023. SC027-39 01:04:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; San Diego State University ; California State University. Multicultural Programs ; Filipino Americans ; Student success ; Human rights Diana Saldivar Madeleine Meyer Video SaldivarDiana_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-14 1:|14(13)|32(10)|47(3)|59(10)|73(9)|92(14)|104(3)|133(8)|148(11)|164(15)|178(14)|202(11)|230(3)|259(11)|284(3)|297(6)|316(10)|334(4)|348(6)|363(4)|382(15)|404(11)|427(4)|443(13)|458(4)|481(6)|503(9)|523(11)|543(4)|554(3)|571(13)|584(12)|596(7)|615(16)|630(12)|644(6)|654(15)|682(5)|703(11)|717(13)|728(8)|744(4)|765(7)|776(17)|794(9)|812(9)|828(6)|848(11)|873(9)|888(8)|900(8)|919(13)|934(12)|949(15)|971(16)|990(13)|1009(8)|1031(9)|1046(18)|1065(6)|1080(6)|1103(11)|1121(9)|1148(6)|1152(15) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4ba35a3be1f188bd69a1d18341a5b736.mp4 Other video english 0 Childhood and Education Saldivar describes how she moved a lot and never had a solid group of friends due to her father's career in the military. She explains how she struggled navigating college as a first generation student. Saldivar started out at Palomar Community College, then California State University San Marcos and later moved onto San Diego State University for graduate school. Saldivar explains how she graduated during the recession and no one was hiring so she felt discouraged and had to take on volunteer work to maintain work experience. She also discusses what life was like growing up with parents who immigrated from the Philippines and China. Palomar Community College ; California State University San Marcos ; San Diego State University ; immigrant ; VA bill ; Military ; first generation ; childhood 0 780 Finding the Cross-Cultural Center and Getting Involved In Associated Students Incorporated Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center was very small and almost hidden amongst the campus. She explains how faculty encouraged her to apply for a position for Associated Students Incorporated (ASI, student governance). Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center exposed her to faculty that looked like her and represented her despite the campus being predominately white. Cross-Cultural Center ; Associated Students Incorporated ; representation ; identity 0 1205 Working and building up the CCC Saldivar explains how she started working at the Multicultural Center (now called Cross-Cultural Center) and helped to build the foundations of the center. She explains how in only three years the center was able to grow and become recognized on campus. The center was working with various other campus organizations to share resources and create appropriate spaces for students. Saldivar explains how the center impacted people within their identity. multi-cultural center ; start up ; building ; Pride Center ; LGBT ; Womens Center ; Asian Center ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 1690 CCC Began Growing Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center began to expand and its new location allowed the center to become more visible to students. Programing for the center was created such as the Peer Educator Program, Multicultural Mondays and Dinner Dialogues. These programs provided a space and opportunity for students to explore, understand and discuss identities. Peer Educator Program ; Multicultural Mondays ; Dinner Dialogues ; identities ; representation ; LGBTQ ; Religion 0 2282 How the CCC Helped Saldivar Saldivar feels like her courses helped her identify who she was and understand how her background has shaped her as an individual, but the CCC is what allowed her to put those realizations into practice. The CCC allowed her to realize she must live intentionally and how to really make an impact in peoples lives. The CCC provided her with the skills she would use later on in her career. 0 2744 How Saldivar Met Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy, her husband, met through the Cross-Cultural Center and ended up getting married. Saldivar reflects on the programs that she and Randy worked on for the CCC. Husband ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; University of Southern California ; Filipino American Organization 0 3191 Working Dynamics Between Saldivar and Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy maintained a professional relationship while working at the center. She describes how they compliment one another and help one another become successful in their work. Kamalayan Alliance 0 3399 Asian Pacific Islander First Graduating Ceremony Saldivar discusses how the CCC helped the Asian Pacific Islander Club recognize their first graduating class. She explains how the lack of a budget forced the CCC and Asian Pacific Islander Club to get creative. Saldivar expresses her gratitude towards the university for always listening to the wants and needs of their students. Asian Pacific Islander Club ; Asian Pacific Islander graduation 0 3557 Impact of CCC on Others Saldivar discusses impact of the CCC on students and their academic success. She expresses the joy it brings to her when she sees how much her and her community has grown due to the center. Filipino ; student success 0 3723 Role of CCC Saldivar discusses how much the center has grown and how its programs are focused on the current needs of the students. 0 Video Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. Madeleine Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Diana Saldivar at California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Friday, April 14th, 2023, and the time is eleven fifty-seven. I'd like to start with asking you a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what was your early life like? Diana Saldivar: Ooh, that's a long question (both laugh). That's gonna be a long answer. How long do we have? Um, I actually was born here in San Diego, California on a military, one of the military bases. I don't know exactly which one. My mom forgot to give me those details, but all I know is that the hospital is now torn down. So I know it doesn't exist anymore, but I assume it was either 32nd or one of the Navy bases down south. Because I didn't know, we lived in North Park for a little bit, from there, because my dad's military career, we moved several places across, the West Coast. So I've been to Fallon, Nevada, San Francisco, Treasure Island, back to San Diego, Hawaii. And then once my dad retired, he retired at Camp Pendleton here in Oceanside. So I ended up being around probably fourteen, fifteen (years old). So right in the middle of my middle school, high school years is when I came to kind of be more of a, a transplant to San Diego. So--it was definitely still different from me, (laughs) for me from moving from San Francisco to a really big, you know, metropolitan city with a lot of diversity to Oceanside, which was very (laughs), in development still. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: So that was a big challenge. And then also because of me moving around to so many schools, I think I went to eight or nine schools by the time I was fifteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: So it wasn't like I grew up having solid friends, grew up with them during grade school and things like that. It was always a lot of transition. So me entering high school, middle school when everybody has friends since they were like second grade in kindergarten, that was very different for me. Fortunately, I was able to find my own community. I was able to find other, military transplants. So we just kind of found each other in a sense. So, I ended up graduating high school at Vista High, in 2000, oh (both laugh) that's so long ago. We just even had our 20th, annual, reunion. It was delayed because of the pandemic (COVID-19). Meyer: Right Saldivar: So it was 21(st annual reunion), which made it feel so much worse (laughs). So I graduated in Vista High and, I didn't really know what to do. I mean, I was kind of one of those, I was a first generation, what do you call it? Immigrant child who, my parents did some college, but it was more like vocational college. They didn't really understand the full traditional college career, how to get there. So I had a lot of high school counselors. They kind of helped with, you know, what are your thoughts about going into, you know, college, have you thought of, you know, applying and things like that. And it never really crossed my mind. I was just kind of going as it goes. But I ended up applying to San Diego State, Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos and one other college. Because of my dad's military career, he was able to get the GA or, the VA Bill (Veterans Affairs, often referred as GI Bill). So I was able to use it as his dependent, which was nice because affording college was just out of the question and having that nice little package was so good (laughs). So I had to stay in California, so I was very limited to where I could go. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, you know, “Let's just go to Cal State San Marcos. It's close to home (laughs).” You know, I didn't really understand the whole, let's research and let's look at this and that and things. I'm just like, okay, I'll just go to college and put, I don't know, well non-major and stuff like that. And then, you know, I ended up being here, started 2000, dropped--got kicked out (both laugh) 2002 because I didn't meet the math requirement (laughs). I'm not sure if they still have that here, but as an undergrad you had to meet an English and math requirement. I definitely met the English because I did IB (International Baccalaureate) English, like honors English, but I was terrible at math, and I don't know why I was taking math classes at seven o'clock in the morning (Meyer laughs). So that was terrible setup for me. So then I ended up going to Palomar Community College for a couple years to get myself back on track, doing the, IGETC (Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum) program. And probably by 2004 I found myself back here at Cal State San Marcos, you know, with a brand new focus, more (of an) understanding of what I wanted to do. Finally declared a major and two minors, like a crazy person. Like why would I wanna be the school more? I don't know. I ended up then graduating in the winter, or yet fall of 2007, but I walked, spring 2008, which was great because it felt really nice to kind of be able to represent my family, kind of being the first gen(eration) going across. And then it was like, what do I do now? And then I ended up going to San Diego State for my grad program, but that in itself wasn't even planned. Meyers: Um-Hm. Saldivar: This is kind of how my life has been. Meyers: Yeah. Saldivar: It just doesn't get planned. It just happens. Which is probably not a great (laughs) way to live life sometimes, unless you have a goal. It was my mentor, Dilcie Perez from the Cross-Cultural Center, or actually just kind of the student activities area and where she looked at me and she's like, “Did you ever think about making this a career?” And I was like, “What, I could get paid for this?” (both laugh). So that was kind of pretty much how it all happened in, the three months before I was graduating, I went to a info session about higher education programs and kind of figuring out that you could work with students, these are things that you could do to build your, your career in, in the collegiate setting. And I was like, oh, okay. I'll apply to of course, a California state school because that's how I can afford (laughs). And you know, still on my dad's, VA. Ended up getting in the San Diego State program. And so right after, the fall semester, I had a semester off because of the way that the, the, the calendar, schedule was laid out. So I had some work experience. So I ended up getting some work experience at the--oh my gosh. St. Paul? No, not St. Paul's. Oh my gosh. Father Joe's. Oh, my I’m like why I’m saying St. Paul's. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Saldivar: The Father Joe's Villages. I ended up, being a vocational counselor there for a couple months. And then I moved on to do my grad program at San Diego State. And then this was the longest title ever. Let me, let me see if I can get it right. Masters (laughs) of Arts in Higher Education with a Specialization in Student Affairs Administration. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah (both laugh). You should see what it looks like on the degree (Meyer laughs). It's like, my gosh, what did it say? I'm like, just higher ed. Just, just say higher ed. Meyer: Just put et cetera at the end. Saldivar: Right. And (both laugh) everything's an acronym. So yeah, I went to San Diego State, got do-- done, and then I graduated in 2010, when the economy was just (blows raspberry, gives thumbs down gesture). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So it was a terrible time-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: To graduate because education was literally redlined. Nobody was hiring. People were, either being laid off or decreased (furloughed) and things like that. So I, it was, it was a difficult time because, you know, I grew up with that mentality, especially that, first gen mentality that if you go to college and you get these degrees, you're going to get a good job at the end. You're gonna get paid well, you're gonna be able to buy a house and all these other things, which is a very, you know, generational (laughs), you understand. We're like, yeah, here, we're now still paying rent. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: So it was, it was very, it was very humbling. At the same time it was, it was an eye-opener to the reality of like, this is not really the American dream that I was fed to believe in a sense. If that'll, you know, if you're educated, you'll be much more successful, whatever that looks like in that terminology. I would say at least, probably 80 to 85% of our class did not end up in higher ed. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: They only got in if they were already doing an internship and then was already kind of luckily able to find funding to continue that internship into a part-time or, uh, what do you call it? A contracted job? So it wasn't even like they were full on (jobs). It was, you know, you're, we could, we could help keep you on for another year. And it was like yearly basis until they finally, leveled out and then got the full-time benefit stuff. So that's what happened to a lot of my, cohort, either they all ended up going home to where they, came from and then going into nonprofit or some type of K-12 (Kindergarten-twelfth grade) education prep program. So we tried to find jobs, or I definitely tried to find jobs that could still, you know, help hone in my skills that are transferrable to get back into higher ed. But it took a long time to do that. So, I mean that's kind of more of my, educational professional side (laughs) about me. I guess, on a more personal side, I'm the first born of two. So I have a younger brother, two years younger than me. I, you know, grew up, like I said, all over the place. My parents are, my mom is from the Philippines and then my dad's Chinese. So he's from China, Hong Kong. They both immigrated to the states probably when they were fifteen, sixteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. So they were like teenagers. So they still kind of had deep cultural ties to their homelands, but then also was at that point in where they were at school, where they could become more acclimated to their American culture and things like that. So I kind of, I wanted to be, say like, I'm one and a half, two generation kind of in a sense where they understood some of, you know, American norms and values and things like that, but at the same time had that duality of, how do we stay culturally close to ourselves and things like that. So it, growing up I still kind of, you know, butt heads in, in a sense (laughs) with my parents. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Like, well, that's not how I feel doing that now. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: You know? I mean, even my grandma had immigrated later on and so, I had a lot of my family in the Bay Area. The San Francisco, San Jose, or Stockton area. And my Chinese grandma, R.I.P. (Rest In Peace) love her to death. She was very, very strict Chinese ma--grandma. And where she tried to marry me off so (laughs), I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs). I mean, I was too young to understand what was going on, but at least my mom was like, “We are not doing that!” Meyer: Oh my God. Saldivar: Yeah (laughs). Meyer: How, how old were you? Saldivar: I was probably about seven or eight when my grandma was grooming-- Meyer: Oh-- Saldivar: Me to, you know, prepare for like, have you met this child? Or, you know, I have a friend's son who's on my oh. What the heck? (Meyer laughs) No! Meyer: Your mom is like, “We're not, (both talking) we’re not doing this—" Saldivar: Yeah, exactly. We're not exactly (laughs). Meyer: Oh my gosh. Saldivar: Yeah. It was kind of neat because my, my--the thing is because my dad is a firstborn male of the family. So he's spoiled and everything and oh, since I'm the first daughter, you know, we have to make sure she's married off well. And then my, my brother who's actually considered the first-born male of the firstborn son gets so much better benefits and perks than I do. So even though I'm the first born (unintelligible) oh no, you're a female. But my son--my brother still gets like, everything. Meyer: And he's the baby. So it's, yeah. (Saldivar laughs). Oh man. Saldivar: Yeah. So that's kind of just a little bit about me. I know that was, a real deep dive into a lot of stuff. Meyer: No, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I, well that answers my question about your educational journey too. Which is perfect. Saldivar: There you go. Meyer: Um, and then I was just going to ask, how did you first become aware of the Cross-Cultural Center when you came onto Cal State San Marcos’ campus? Saldivar: That’s a, (laughs) that's actually a really good question. Um— Meyer: How did you wander in? Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that's always the funny thing is people don't know about it. I think what was hard was when I was here on campus and versus like how it is now, it wasn't visible. Meyer: Oh OK. Saldivar: You--it was not even like an indicator. There was no signage, there was not like, how the Veterans Center is literally right there in the middle of campus or, you know, the Student Center is right there. The, the Cross-Cultural Center, or what it was called formerly is the Multicultural Center was in a back office kind of like this. It was hidden in Craven Hall (now Administrative Building), fourth floor way in. So when you walk in, it's not right there. It's like you have to go halfway through, then down this tiny corridor and then it's a door. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: And it's, you think, okay, either it's a janitor’s closet or it's where they keep all the, um, what do you call it, the computer stuff and everything— Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: Like a storage closet. You're just like, “Where is this place? Am I in the right place?” And (they’re) like, “Keep going down. (laughs) You're following the right area”. Like we had signs and arrows and everything. In different bright colors to make it feel like it's okay, (Meyer laughs) it's a safe space. You're coming to, you're know, we're not going to kidnap you or anything. (both talking) Meyer: This is not a meat locker. Saldivar: Right, exactly. You're going to make it out alive. Meyer: Yeah, yeah. Saldivar: The way I ended up getting there, funny enough was I was just going through--when I returned back to school, my focus was just get my degree and go, you know, I wasn't even thinking about being involved, you know, student life, things like that. That wasn't even on my radar, until I started taking community, what do you call it? Sociology classes. So my major was Communications and I minored in Sociology and Ethnics Studies and my Ethnic Studies teacher --I am terrible with names (laughs). I see her face Dr. Elsie, (whispers: Elsie), no, Elsa, Elsie (Dr. Sharon Elise), something like that. Meyer: Uh-Hm. Salvidar: And she--was talking about, you know, race and, racial identity and things like that. And so she was very involved in the school, and something came up in where there’s a position for ASI, our Associated Student Inc. for a Director of Diversity and Cultural Events or, something like that. I'm terrible remember(ing), those kind of details years back. But yeah, it was with ASI and I, so it was a Cultural and and Diversity Coordinator. So it'd be in charge of all the events regarding, you know, student orgs ,and things like that. So she know would talk about in this class and she was like, you know, this is available if you guys are interested and stuff. And then she personally took me aside and she's like, “I think you should go for this Dee.” I was like, “really?” She was like, “I think you might be good for it. You should try it out.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” That was my thing. (laughs) I was just like, okay, people see something in me, I guess I'll try it. It wasn't anything like, oh, I have so wanted this job, or I should be interested. It's like, okay, let me just fill it out and stuff and you know, and ask questions, you know, your personal identity. What do you think you would bring on campus? Why is cultural diversity important to you and, and to the students? Those are kind of some of the things I remember. And, and you know, I was filling it out, just kind of taking a lot of the experience. I grew up, you know, being a military child and being in San Francisco and other places and having to adjust to those. It's just, you know, feeling--just more of creating a belonging on campus. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: Because especially during that time, there was not a lot of students of color on, on campus. It was very predom-- we called it the pre-primarily, PWI. Primarily a White Institution (Predominately White Institution). That was, what do you call it? Oh geez, I forgot what you call it. Commuter (student body). Yeah. So it was very big commuter student, there was no student life on campus. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: It wasn't as lively as it was, is now or a couple years before. So I applied for it. I think I was the only one (laughs) that applied for it because I don't think, because ASI wasn't even really built up either. We were such a young campus. And so I interview it. I ended up being on the board and so that was kind of my shoe into student activities and student involvement. And that's where I got to meet other people, meet other campus organizations, realized, oh my gosh, there's much more to on-campus than going to class. Meyer: Right. Saldivar So from there I ended up, you know, having to--part of that position allowed me to network and coordinate with a lot of different folks on campus, which was great. And that's when I caught the attention of Alexis (Montevirgen, second Associate Director of Multicultural Programs). Who was a part of the Multicultural Center at a student affair, student activities department. And he would be attending some of the stuff that ASI would be putting on. And he's like, “So have you thought of, you know, maybe wanting to move into student, you know, affairs and activities? You know, I have a position that'd be coming up,” you know, but because with ASI it was only a one-year thing. So it wasn't like you could continue. I mean, I could continue on if I wanted to, but, you know it was just my foot on the door just trying to see what, it was about. And he's like, “Yeah, you know, we actually have a center that you could be a peer educator and all this stuff come by. Let's talk. You know, I'd love to see what you'd be interested in doing for us.” And, and, it was kind of amazing to see a male Filipino-- Meyer: Um-Hm Saldivar: Faculty, staff member on campus. Because it was like, wait, there's somebody that looks like me and he's interested in what I have to do and talk about. So it was kind of really neat to kind of see him as a mentor and a friend and somebody that looks like me, but could understand also culturally, you know, where we come from. What was interesting was I hadn't really explored my Filipino identity as much, because I wasn't really exposed to it other than my family. And so I felt more closely to my Chinese American identity. So him being Filipino and being like, hey, you know, I see you, let’s work together. Let's figure out what we could do. I felt like it was an opportunity for me not just to, you know, be a part of that center, but also to help kind of selfishly myself, kind of, I learned who I am. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, in this role. So after I did ASI for the one year, they're like, “So you want to continue?” I'm like, “Actually I want to move over there (points, laughs).” So they, they always laugh because Sarah Gallegos was my supervisor for ASI. So her and Alexis, you know, would work together and stuff and she's like, “You stole my person (laughs).” So they would always joke about that and everything. “Stop stealing my people!” Meyer: They're poaching. Saldivar: Right. Exactly. He literally just straight up poached me. He's like, so you interested. So that's how I ended up being a part of the Multicultural Center as, it was, it was a different title at that time. It was, I, I don't know if it was ambassador or, because it wasn't even called peer educator at that time. It was just kind of like, I was his assistant because the peer educator program hadn't, hadn't even started yet. We were in, he was in the— the works of actually building it. So I kind of came on more as a, as like an executive assistant to him helping him organize what is the peer education supposed to look like? What are some programs we could start doing? Things like that. So looking at more of the administrative logistic planning of it before even, just even being a student. So it was kind of nice because, I was able to do some of my work experience to like, hey, you know, let's get my type A personality going here. Yeah. So (laughs). Yeah. So that's how I fell into it. And I was there for almost two and a half, three years. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. I continued on with it. He was just like, yeah, you're staying on. I'm like, okay. (laughs). Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Well, it sounds like you were really essential to the early space. Saldivar: I want to say I am, I guess. I mean, I was just in it because I felt like it was such a great opportunity to create a space for students who, didn't feel like they belonged on campus. And just to be with great minds who want to think big and create a culture and a system of, what do you call it? Just, you know, integrate a lot of things on campus that wasn't there. And it was, I felt like it was one of, what do you call it? Now, I'm looking back like I'm, when I was young I was like, “I’m in it. This is fun. Yay!” Just go ahead and do this because, you know, I just want to be part of it and I'm now looking back like, I was in an incubator. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: I literally was in a startup not realizing it was a startup. So yeah. I was kind of looking back like, oh dang, (laughs). I did all that. Oh— Meyer: You were at the beginning of something really big. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: So it sounds like the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multi-Cultural Center as it was called, was a lot smaller when you started. Saldivar: Oh my gosh, yes (both laugh). Meyer : How would you say it was different when you started and when you left? Saldivar: Oh my gosh. We had people (laughs), the campus community actually knew what the Cross-Cultural Center was. So that was really, it was so interesting to see within the two-and-a-half, three years how much it had grown. When I started it was just me and Alexis in this small little room, red couches, you know, we had some posters up. We had a bookcase full of just some, you know, books that we called “our library” (laughs). Now that, I think have a huge like, depository of information that people can have resources to. But at that time we didn't even have this library, so it was-- Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: I know it's hard to imagine (laughs). So there wasn't like a lot of resources focused on DEI (Diversity and Equity) work, you know, even it was even called DEI work at that time. It was just called, you know , you know, diversity and multiculturalism. So a lot of the lingo has even changed from the time I was there to now. I think what, I mean, just breaking it down to even certain years, the first year was just building, just building a foundation, getting down what is the Multi-Cultural Center about what’s its place on campus and how can we be in collaboration and community with all the other centers that were even being established. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it was nice that it was a really good time for the Cross-Cultural Center, Women's Center, um, the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender) Center, the Pride Center, all those centers kind of working together to build each other up. You know, we knew that it was important to have these centers, but we didn't wanna have just one centralized one that filled everything. Its like, no, we need to really, I don't wanna say--segment them. But we, they did needed to be segmented because there's all different sorts of needs for each one. But we also wanted to work together as, you know, we are here together as a whole but specifically they could help you with these certain things. You know. So we were, that was such a great time in where we didn't, we weren't fighting for resources and I think still they're not fighting for resources, so, which is good. So we started in Craven Hall, the small little area, and I think what really helped was just having students come and just hang out and know there's a space for them. Yeah. It ended up being a lot of API (Asian Pacific Islander) students of course. So, you know, it kind of, it was hard to get that stigma off for a while that's like, “Oh, that's the Asian Center.” It's like, no, we're actually open to a lot more people. But it just happened to be a lot of Asians in here. Meyer: You're not the first person who said that. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: I’ve heard that a few times. Saldivar: Yeah. I know Floyd is still dealing with that. (both talking) Meyer: Yeah, Floyd mentioned that. Saldivar: I’m sorry, I'm so sorry (laughs). Myere: No— Saldivar: Because what, what was nice about the, the, the Multicultural Center or when it changed to the Cross-Cultural Center was that it was a nice incubator for student organizations to start too. There was, since there's no space for folks, there's no space to grow. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: And no space to, to create communities. And so that's kind of what happened with the Cross-Culture Center--well, I like Cross-Cultural Center, but it's Multicultural Center--back then Multicultural Center (laughs) was, it was an incubator for, for student orgs (organizations). So Kamalayan Alliance actually started from there. The Filipino organization that me, and actually my husband was a part of the, the found founding group. Yeah. So we founded that and it's crazy to see how far they are. And I was, oh god, 20 something years later. Oh, that makes me feel old. And they're like, “Oh yeah, 26th anniversary.” I'm like, “has it been 26 years?” Meyer: You're like, can we say 15 maybe? Saldivar: Can we just say anniversary? Just, just leave the number out. Meyer: Yeah (both laugh). Saldivar: It's crazy to see how many generations have gone through that. I know--what do you call, APSA? The Asian Pacific Student Society? The Vietnamese group. I know we also helped, and this was later on also, you know, the Black Student Union, things like that. And kind of just developing and growing and finding spaces to find each other. And then being able to create that community. And then if they needed to go off and do their own thing, that was fine too. But we just were happy that, hey, people found each other through here and they were able to do something and create action. So that was kind of a really, something that I hold dear to my heart is that there was a space for students to do that and to find friendships and god, I don't know how many of them got married to each other. Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: (laughs) There’s a lot of people that are like, oh, you're still together. We're still best friends and now y'all have kids. And it's crazy how much the, the, that space had, impacted so many people so many years later. Meyer: Wow. Yeah. Saldivar: So I guess, so what else happened there? I mean, there's just so much (laughs). We did move three times, the time I was there, so it was nice that they realized this space is too small for us. They ended up, the main office ended up taking note of how many students were coming in a day. So then they could show to, I don't know, the chancellor, the provost, I still don't understand the hierarchy. And I'm a student and I'm in higher ed(ucation). And I was like, what (laughs) You know, they're like, there's a need here. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: You see what's happening is that these students are coming in, they're using the space, they're doing this, this, this, and this. So they were provide--so us, us students just hanging out and chilling and doing whatever we're doing there. They were using us, as I won’t saying using us. But, you know, they were using us as a case study saying, “Hey, this is something important to us. Look what's happening. We need a bigger space.” And so what was nice is that through, I think between 2005, five and six or six or six or seven, we ended up moving us to the bottom floor of the Craven Hall. Or was it the first floor? It's one of the, the lower ends. Which was nice because not only was it semi-visible to, the students now, because people would have to walk by the center to get to the one stop. And we were in front of that really nice, painted mural. But they also, it was a bigger space. It was an awkward space, but it was bigger. It was this weird triangle and were like, how are we gonna fit anything? So it was really weird, like sectioned off stuff. It was weird. But what was nice is that because of being more visible people were able to see, “Hey, wait, what's going on in there? Oh, that looks cool.” Then we were able to even promote more of our programs and be like, hey, have you guys heard of this? Or, you know, here's a flyer, here's A-frames. Things like that. The red couches still, still came with us because the red couches came (both laugh) wherever we went. Everybody knew us by the red couches. I think, that was really one of the key things that brought a lot of students in, because you know, I mean, before we just had-- Meyer: Benches Saldivar: Benches. And basic chairs. And it was not comfortable. It didn't feel welcoming. People like, “Hey, you wanna take a nap? We got some red couches.” People just pass out there next thing (Meyer laughs) you know, they made it a home. You know. Other things that happened in there was when a lot of programming was starting to be developed. So I was there as the assistant for about six months until the new semester kicked in. And me and Alexis had come up, helped develop the peer educator program. So the peer educator program consisted of four peer educators. I was kind of the main lead one. Jay (Franklin) was hired on as, the LGBTQ peer educator. And then there was Brittany, which I forgot her, what her specific one was. And then there was Stephanie who was like spiritual and religious. So we were kind of sectioned off into certain areas of our expertise to kind of help reach out to those groups. At that time it kind of worked because it was such a small population of the students, we could do that. As time has gone on, they just made 'em all peer educators and they were just kind of more cross trained in everything and anything. And whoever had those expertise would be kind of referred to. So it became more of a referral system than it was like, “Oh, you go to Jay because he's specifically this identity.” But it was great because we were able to all really learn from each other. Oh yeah. And then there was Cher, how can I forget, I forgot Cher. Cher is fun. Cher just, her (laughs) demeanor was so different, she was, very introverted, but once you got to know her, oh, she had the most sassiest mouth ever. And I'm just like, “Cher! We can't say that!” (Both laugh) But she was great. She, we, we came really close. And I think that's what I love about being in that peer educator program that we became really close. You know, we were all in it brand new. First of all, we were all students of color, so we're like, oh my god, there's more you know (laughs). And it was a great learning opportunity for all of us. So the things that we didn't know or understand, it was a safe space for us to explore that. So as peer educators, you know, we came up with some programming for the students. So we did things, and it kind of kind of all organically came together. You know, one, one of the things that we all worked on was called Multicultural Mondays. So on Mondays, once or every twice a month, I forgot what days.(laughs). There was a, you know, a certain schedule to it. We would, look at certain identities or things that would be meaningful for the students to wanna explore. So just kind of added programming to it. One of the things that I love that I hold dear to my heart was one of the programs we did called “Dinner Dialogues.” That was a very pricey program, but it worked (laughs). I'm like, “Do we have a budget?” (Both laugh) I didn't know what that was. I'm just like, “Can I have money for this?” Meyer: Well, Jay was saying, getting people in with food always worked. Saldivar: Oh gosh. Yeah. We ended up having a fridge and a microwave, but until we moved down to the, to the second floor. So yeah. That's one of things. Like we got food, we got pizza because, the campus was a food desert. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: We had nothing other than the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops). And the Dome was one of, first of all kind of expensive, and two, it was gross (both laugh). It was, oh. Oh no. So one of the things that we came up with called Dinner Dialogues, and it was a really great, I wanna say experience of how that organically happened as a program. It was just a bunch of students, hanging out in the Cross-Cultural Center past four o'clock, which was very rare because nobody wanted to be on campus past two. Usually the classes ended at two, you were gone. But these students felt safe. They felt home. They felt like, this is where I want to be. So we all ended up just getting food. I think this was when Chick-fil-A opened and we all got free, what do you call it? Chicken sandwich passes. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So we all went got like (laughs), thirty-five sandwiches. Oh, it was crazy. And yeah, we all sat there, we're just all eating. And we started talking about-- it was my, my good friend Jacob Dansler, he was, Black male and it was some of us and we were all, you know, all from different backgrounds and stuff. And we were talking about some of the challenges that we've had as a person of color or what it mean to be a man of color, or a woman of color or, you know, LGBQ person of color. And it was really cool to kind of just sit there and have that kind of dialogue with each other and learn and be able to ask questions that were, I wouldn't say in, in a way that we didn't feel like we were being judged for asking these questions. It was a very safe space and a space for learning and, and feeling, you know, we actually have a lot more in common than we realized. And people were like, you know, we need to make this a program. This is cool. I would love to have these kind of spaces where we could talk about these things like this. And so that's where Dinner Dialogues ended up coming out and we're like, yeah, free meal, but at the same time, let me talk with you about things that maybe we don't have these opportunities to talk about all the time . So it was really great. That program kicked off really well and we had ended up having, I think it was for two years until I actually ended up leaving. And then I don't know what happened if it continued or if it morphed and changed ‘cause it always changes with people who come in. But yeah, I think that was one of really one of the main things that kicked off there. And then Jay, because he was the LGBTQ peer educator, he also was able to bridge a lot of the communities together and start, start planning out the Pride Center. And so that was kind of really nice in where the, the Multicultural Center was the hub of creating more and building more and growing out. So while he was there, we worked together in supporting not only the, oh gosh, LGBT group, but then also, okay, how are we gonna get a space for these students as well? So that was a really big achievement for Jay and for the Cross-Cultural Center in that sense. And it was nice that we were able to support each other in building those communities. You know, mine was Kamalayan, his was-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, the pride, oh, we call it, I think Britney was helping with the BSU (Black Student Union) part, things like that. So we were all there to support each other, support the students and just, I don't know, we were just doing it because we wanted to. It's just ‘cause we had the passion for it and we loved it. I don't think we—it was like fully intentional what we were doing. And until we're like, oh crap, look what we did (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. You wanted to create a space for you and the people on campus and it just kept being a space. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: That's great. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: All right. Saldivar: I know, I think I've-- there's so much. I hope I'm catching everything (laughs). Meyer: No, you're, you're actually answering some of the questions before I even ask 'em, which is great-- (both talking) Saldivar: Oh, perfect. Okay good. Meyer: Yeah. How did it, how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop and express your cultural identity? Saldivar: Oh gosh. I think it made me, I think it was, it was, that was just one of the many layers upon my education studies here. Because in my communications major, and because minoring in sociology and ethnic studies, those classes helped me really look internally of who I was, what my identities meant, how they came across to, to the students, to the people that I work with. You know, really being able to put all that theory and then the Cross-Cultural Center allowed me to put it into practice. Oh god, I sound old (laughs). Meyer: No. Saldivar: Being able to put those together. I'm like, ah, makes me (unintelligible). Meyer: No that's, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that helped me a lot in regards to the development of who I was becoming and who I am now. You know, coming into a college, like I said, you know, first gen(eration) Chinese, Filipino-American, I'd like, what does that, what did that mean to me? You know, even when I, I went into college, I didn't even know, I didn't even know that I was considered first gen. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to college because everybody says I should, or, you know, my parents weren't able to go and they said I should go, so I'm gonna go, you know, you just don't have that frame of reference until you get into a space. They're like, “Oh, are you the first one to go in your family? Oh, so you’re the first gen.” Wait, what, what does that mean? So, and so, you know, not realizing there's the support systems and things like that to help you and understand and develop that. And I think that's what really helped me was with that Cross-Cultural Center is to be--is to meet not only my community and people and friends, lifelong friends, who’re gonna help me, you know, be where I am today. But also meeting the mentors and the folks who do the work and how they've helped me understand more of, I guess the practice and, and the acknowledgement of like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. You know, it's, it, it's it, you have to be uncomfortable with the un-- you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, these are things that I don't know, and it's okay not to know. You know, you're gonna move into certain spaces where you're gonna feel uncomfortable and how do you unpackage that? How do you take that and make it into a learning opportunity? And that's one thing that Dilcie Perez has-- she taught me throughout my time being there . She was such a great guidance and mentor for me that I give her kudos to everything about what I do with the work that I do. I remember when I was asked to return back for the 15th-year anniversary of the Cross-Cultural Center, and they asked me and Jay to be speakers, I was like, “Oh, good lord, what am I supposed to talk about?” (both laugh) There's so much to talk about! And it took me a while to realize what I wanted to say. And it came back in, to the fact of being intentional. And that always stuck with me. The one thing that Dilcie always said to me, she was like, what's your intentions on what you know, of what you're doing? Why are you doing this? Meyers: Um-Hm. Salvidar: So I wasn't just doing something for the sake of doing it, but just to understand, you know, is there an impact? What are the consequences? What is the bigger picture that you're trying to achieve? Even (Former Dean of Students, Gregory) Toya was a really great, mentor and where he asked, “What are the students learning outcomes?” I was like, students what (laughs)? What, what? He's like, yeah. Why are we putting on this? Why are you putting on this project? Or why are you putting on this program? What do you want the students to learn? So that really gave me a great foundation and understanding of, why am I doing this? Just, am I doing it for the sake of doing it? Is it self-serving, or is it really here for the students? And being kind of in a, in a selfish (selfless?) teaching moment. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So I, I wanna say that the Cross-Cultural center really helped me build, you know, a framework or a lens of how I move forward in doing whatever I do or move, as I grow up, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, it made me mature (laughs)! Meyer: They gave you a little toolkit with all the stuff you-- Salvidar: Right. Meyer: You needed for adult life. Saldivar: Exactly. And I, and I thank them for that. ‘Cause now that I'm, you know, now in kind of their space. In their spot. It's so weird to have that flip in where I was looking for mentors who look like me or who I could connect to. But now I'm in that space and where I'm the mentor and where I'm reaching out to students say, “Hey, I see you. Let me, you know, I'm here for you. If you need a space or someone to talk to, I'm here.” You know, and it's so weird to be in that odd spot (laughs) right now, but it's because of them that they were such great models by example that I now have those skills and that toolkit to be like, okay, you know what? I know what it feels like to be in that spot. Let me help you get to where you wanna be. Let me help you unpackage what's going on with your lives and things like that. You know, just an example was a couple weeks ago I had a grad student, who identifies as Chinese American reach out to me. And she's like, I wanna be in where you are at in doing marketing and communication. But how do I, you know, deal with the cultural, challenges with my parents who want me to be in the medical field. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: And I was like, oh girl, let's talk (both laugh)! You know? And so it was really nice and, and I would say the experience of being, being able to talk to her and her just at the end feeling so relieved and feeling like she could find someone that she could connect to. Someone that she was able to be like, oh my god, I'm not alone in this feeling and this experience and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Was such an elated moment for me to be like, oh my gosh, I can still help students (laughs). You know-- Meyer: You took that weight off her shoulders. Saldivar: Yeah. And it felt good to be, you know, I was there and I didn't have anyone to help me with navigating that. And I'm glad that I was able to be there for her to have those experiences that I could be able to connect with someone else who's going through the same thing. So yeah, the Cross-Cultural Center helped me grow a lot, Personally a lot. In understanding who I am, what space I take, what space I should take, you know, what being present means. In spaces that don't have many people of color or female people of color. Yeah. I mean it's (laughs). It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Meyer: And I understand that you made a lot of friends there and met your husband at the Cross-Cultural Center. Saldivar: (laughs) Yes. Meyer: Tell us a little bit about how you guys met. Saldivar: Oh my gosh. (laughs). Meyer: Well, it's relevant to the Cross-Cultural Center, so. Saldivar: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's just, wow, y'all (both laugh) we're, we're like, y'all met and y'all married, now you have a kid. Okay! Meyer: So you're not the only ones. There's multiple. Saldivar: There were several people who, I would say yeah, got married some of our best friends and stuff. So me and Randy (Saldivar), met through a friend. It was not intentional when we first met. I was actually working with ASI at the time. So we were, I was at the cancer, one of the cancer walks, the Susan G. Koman cancer walks that we had on here at the field. I was a part of, you know, the walking team and my good friend Trish at the time, she was another Filipina-American and who were able to connect, was there with me to help support. And we were both at the check-in, check-in table at that time. And this is when we had the Nokia phones. Okay. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: This is how old it was. So she (laughs)--her. Randy had called her ‘cause I guess he was studying at the library. He was like, “Hey, what's up? What are you doing?” She's like, “Hey, come down.” You know, “I'm with my friend Dee, and we're at this thing, you know, just come and hang out.” He's like, okay. I didn't even know who he was. I didn't know who this guy was. She's like, oh, my friend's coming over. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm sitting there with my--I was in a Japanese 101 at this time, so I have my Japanese book out. I'm reading it, you know, he comes down with his boom box and (Meyers laughs) and I’m, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, oh yeah, you know, just B-boying. And I'm like, okay, cool. Whatever. You know, I didn't know anything about the hip-hop culture and stuff. And she's like, “Oh, this is my friend Randy, Randy this Dee,” I'm like, “Cool. Okay.” And he looks down and he is like, “Oh, you're studying Japanese?” I'm like, “Yeah, I'm in 101.” He's like, “Oh, I took it.” I was like, “Oh cool. How was it?” He's like, “Oh, it's really fun. He's like, do you need help with it?” I'm like, “No, I'm cool, thanks.” So (both laugh). So that's was my first initial meeting with him. Not even a thought. He was just a passing thought. And there was another time where they had the International Festival here on campus, and it was me and Trish again. And we're eating Ramen sitting on the floor. Randy comes by, says hi again. And this is a time where we had the old school, film. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So we didn't have phones or anything. It was just, yeah, he was going around taking pictures, right, and--but this is where you could actually get it digitally downloaded, which was weird. On a CD, and he had taken a picture of me and Trish and it wasn't until years later when we started dating where we're going through photos. And it was labeled “Trish and Friend.” Meyer: Oh my God. (laughs) Saldivar: I was like-- Meyer: That's your wife. Saldivar: I was like, Randy, that's, that's me (both laugh). He was like, wait, what? He looks back, oh my god, I took a picture of you two (laughs). And we couldn’t stop dying. Just, we had all of these opportunities that we had met. And nothing. He wasn't attracted to me. I wasn't attracted to him. We had no clue. We even met each other. We're like, ah-ha. Cool. Okay. Bye. It wasn't until our friend Trish had decided when, you know after we were kind of starting the Cross-Cultural Center and stuff. It's, you know, let's create a, a student organization for Filipino-Americans or folks who were interested in the Filipino-American culture. Great. So she asked me to be on board. My friend Marvin, asked Randy to be on it, and her friend Katie. So it was the five of us. And we, we, that's when we literally first intentionally met each other. Like, oh, hey, okay. I thought of him as a little brother. I was like, cool (laughs), you know, whatever. And so then we would go to the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multicultural Center to hold meetings just to hang out, you know? ‘Cause Alexis ended up being our advisor as well. So then we would ask him, okay, how do we, you know, how do we start this (student organization)? Or what are things that we need to do? You know, we ended up having our first GBM, you know, and, and saying, okay. So we started kind of building out the, the, the student org here and there. During that time there was probably about--we knew each other for about a good eight months by now. We just still friends. We just kil-, I don't even pay attention to him. He don't pay attention to me. We're just like, yeah, cool. Have you seen this movie? Cool. Have you seen this? Okay. Yeah. We're just hanging out. And then, masquerade ball was around the corner. And all of us were like, yeah, let's go. Let's go to masquerade ball. Woo! You know, let's just dress up and dance. And it was my friend Trish who was like, “So have you thought of, what do you think of Randy?” And I was like, what do you mean what do I think of Randy? “Like, you know, what do you think of him? Like, you think he's cute or something?” And I was like, “Uh, he's okay. I mean, he's nice.” Like she, I, you know, she's trying to plant seeds in my head. On the flip end, she's planting seeds on his end. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: “So what do you think about Dee?” I was like, what! Meyer: One of those friends-- Saldivar: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see something, but you both don't see it. So she was playing matchmaker. And so one time, we were supposed to all meet and go to, a GBM meeting, or we call FCC, Filipino Collegiate Collaborative. So this is where, all the schools across San Diego, USC (University of Southern California), UCSD (University of San Diego), San Diego State and us (CSUSM) were supposed to meet all the Filipino American organizations. So we worked together outside of the school to work with other student orgs, which was really cool. So we were supposed to have our meeting, and it was supposed to be me, Trish, and Randy. And Trish was like, “Oh no, I'm sick. I can't go, but if you two wanna go.” I'm like, okay (laughs). Literally, that's kind of how it ended up going. “Okay. So, you wanna go to like, masquerade ball together?” “Sure. Okay.” So it ended up kind of being our first date in a sense. And then from there, you know, we were kind of dating and-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Because we were still involved in, you know, Kamalayan Alliance. We were coming, as you could tell to the center, he would help out and volunteer a lot, you know, and he saw, you know, Alexis, he's like, “Hey, another Filipino. Yay!” So, you know, we all started kind of building the community and you know, we're spending more time together. He's helping out a lot. And then next thing you know, it's, I'm the one who asked him out (laughs). I was like, so, you know what's going on? (Meyer laughs) And he is like, hey, yeah. I was like, “So do you wanna go out or something?” And he looks at me and he's like, “Yeah, sure. Where do you want to eat?” (Meyer laughs) I was like, “What?” “Yeah. You said you wanna go out, so where do you want to eat?” I'm like, oh my god, you’re so dense. (laughs). I was like, no, do you, wanna be, you know, exclusive? He was like, “Oh yeah. Okay, cool.“ Meyer: Where do you want to eat? Right? Saldivar: He's like, uh, so this-- it tells you so much about his personality. We are so different from each other (laughs), you know, and, he's such a great support. He, when we talk about it, we laugh about it. I'm always the very type A business type of person behind the scenes. Let's get the logistics and stuff going. He's the PR (public relations) of it all. He can talk people's ear off, he can find people's stories, he can connect with them. And then once he does a connection here, here's Dee. And then, you know, I get all this stuff taken care of (laughs). So it was really cool. We've, we worked really well in tandem. And I, I'm surprised at the age that we were at, we were early twenties nobody knew we were dating. Meyer: Oh wow. Saldivar: We were very professional in a sense of where nobody knew in the student org or even sometimes in the Cross-Cultural Center that we were even together, we kept it very, professional. Didn't do the whole PDA (Public Display of Affection) thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: No. You know, we're not here to do that. We're here to serve our community. And I think at such a young age and stage of our relationship of being able to do that, helped us really kind of be able to be really good partners. In the sense where what we do here is for, you know, a different purpose versus what we do here. Meyer: Right Saldivar: I think it was the one time (laughs) at a GBM, this is where the students really started growing. You know, we had almost forty to fifty members by the second, third year, and we had people come through the center and stuff. (laughs) When GBM, he went to go off to go get lunch and he is like, let me go grab something before the, the, the meeting and I'll see you. I'll be right back. And then he gave me a kiss. Everyone freaked out. They're like, oh, what? Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: They're like, what? (laughs) We’re like, what? They’re like what was that? (points, laughs), and we’re like, oh, y'all don't know yet? Like really a core small group of us. The ones right here knew, you know. Meyer: But everyone else. Saldivar: Everyone else, because I guess because they didn't hang out with us outside of the Cross-Cultural Center or at our house or when we went to the dinner and things like that. We really kept it. We, we didn't know we were that good at keeping it very separate. You know, when we go out to sushi or dinner, hang out at people's houses and we were, you know, completely different people. But we were in a school setting or the Kamalayan setting, we were very--we are officers, we are representatives of this, you know, this space. We need to be kind of, you know, professional. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So yeah. That moment that kiss happened, people were like, (gasps)? And we had people, no, you're lying. You're all lying to us. You just, no, you're trying to prank, someone was so sure we were probably, we were trying to just get a rise out of people. We're like, no, we've been together for like six months now. They're like, (gasps) no! (laughs). So it was, it was crazy. It was, that's how we ended up meeting, you know, he graduated in Kinesiology in 2009. Yeah. He--and what was nice is that in, he was also the president of Kamalayan, probably within the first two or three years. And the Cross-Cultural Center helped in creating a lot of the success of Kamalayan and where we had the first API (Asian Pacific Islanders) graduate ceremony. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: Now that has been going on. And we used the center, oh my gosh, that was so crazy. (laughs). We had used the Cross-Cultural Center as a place to build the graduate, the, the planning of the graduate. And we also made the stoles. This is how we had no budget. So we went to Michael's (craft store) and bought the thickest red stole, I mean, red ribbon we could. Meyer: Oh yeah. Saldivar: And black puffy paint. Meyer: Oh no. Saldivar: And we're sitting there, (painting) 2005. Meyer: And that never looks even or clean. Saldivar: Oh no. It was a hot, ugly mess. (Meyer laughs) And you know, we put API grad and there's, you know we're trying to sit there and make it dry, so nothing's smearing. We had red ribbons everywhere and Alexis was like, what the heck is going on? I'm like, “We're making stoles!” (Both laugh) And he's like, oh boy. So I'm--yeah. A lot of the things that happened, like I said, the Cross-Cultural Center was an incubator. A lot of things was DIY (Do It Yourself). It was handmade. You had no budget. So what were we gonna do? You know, we had a lot of, thank goodness we had a lot of support from departments and different, areas with, other API folks who were like, yeah, we got budgets that we could go ahead and just hand over to you or, you know, we'll support you or sponsor you in this or sponsor you in that. So, oh, thank goodness for this community because I don't know if we would’ve got where we are today without really, the support of the school to see that there is a need and it wasn't coming up from the president or things like that. It was coming from the ground up. So that was really cool. Meyer: You were asking for what you needed, not having someone tell you. Yeah. Saldivar: Exactly. And they're like, oh, we--that's what made a, I think Cal State San Marcos such a unique school is that they listen to the people from the ground. It's not directives always coming from the top saying, hey, we need this, or you need to do this, or you need to do this. It's like, no, the students are saying something, how can we meet their needs? Type of thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it's been really cool in seeing that dynamic versus a lot of other institutions that believe or think that, you know, this is what the students want, but not really listening to them. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So yeah. So yeah, all in all, that's how me and Randy met. And we ended up getting married after I finished my master's program. And then now we have a child. Two of our other friends, Mike and Darlene met through, he was part of Kamalayan and she was a part of VSA, the Vietnamese Student Association. And we worked really well together, or we worked closely together and we ended up being, you know, in the Cross-Cultural Center as well. And so she ended up asking him out and he was like, “Sure, okay. I didn't know you liked me.” (Both laugh). And now they're together, married. And then other, there's another couple come Kamalayan Alliance that also was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center and they ended up doing, PCN together, Filipino Culture Night. Which was another thing the Cross-Cultural Center helped create and establishing a lot of that stuff too. And now they're married (laughs). So yeah, there's a lot of married couples coming out and just, you know, we're still really all in touch with each other. People have ended up, generations after us, one of our good friends Jael he was part of Kamalayan Alliance, I'm not sure if he was part of the board, but now he owns and runs his own polvorón company, called Papa's Polvorón. And where he's now has his--it started out as like a at home kitchen type of thing. And he was at the farmer's markets. Now he has his product in a lot of the Filipino stores, across the nation. So it's like, geez, (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, it's really nice to see where all of the students and people who've been through the Cross-Cultural Center and where they are now. You know, and I think that's just one of the biggest rewards I see. Being a part of that community was like, wow, I was there to see y'all start like, “I don't know what I wanna do. I just wanna go and, eat all you can eat sushi.” To, now they're having families and having own businesses and doing great things and great work, you know? So Yeah. So yeah. That's how I met my husband (laughs). Long story short. Meyer: Well it's so intertwined with the story of the Center for you. So I think it's really cool the, you know. Yeah. Saldivar: When we, took our engagement photos we came back to the center, we came back to the campus because this has so much meaning for us. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know-- Meyer: I'll add the pictures, to the file later. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: But, just so people know what you're talking about, the picture of you when you thought it was, like a conference and it was a surprise actually. Saldivar: Yeah. (laughs) Meyer: That’s that's really sweet. Yeah. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing going forward as it coexist with these other identity-specific spaces? You said it's kinda like a support, an incubator, it helps kind of foster the activities of the other programs. Saldivar: Yeah. I think when, when it was in, during my time generation, that's what it was. Now, I mean, it's grown so much and where I, I want--in a sad way that I don't recognize it anymore, but that's a good thing. Because that means there has been growth and development and changes. And I'd rather see that than stay where it is stagnant-wise. What role it has now on the campus, I--I don't really know. Meyer: You've been off campus for awhile (laughs). Saldivar: I’ve been off campus for a while, so it's like, oh, I don’t know what it's gonna be. I mean, what they're doing now, it, it--and I want them to continue what they're doing: is to just continue to, to grow support, find changes. I mean, a lot of the things that I've seen is, you know, with their programming has changed. Which I think it's great, it's changing with the times and that's how all centers should be is, you know, they have to go with what's going on with the students. If they're not willing to change or, be flexible, then what's kind of, what's the purpose of the center? Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, that's kind of the (laughs) thing I could say because I mean, I've been so removed. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: I mean, other than coming back and, you know, being like, “Yay. Hi everybody.” I'm like-- Meyer: You haven't been hands-on with the center for a while. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Of course, of course. Saldivar: Yeah. I'm, I'm the person that used to be here years ago (laughs). “No, don't call me Auntie, please!” (Both laugh) Meyer: And are there any other memories you wanna share that, um, like I know there were retreats that you guys (video cuts out, battery ran down, audio recording) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023. Description An account of the resource Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-39 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University. Multicultural Programs Filipino Americans Human rights Student success San Diego State University Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diana Saldivar Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diana Saldivar Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sara Sheikh-Arvizu OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=Sheikh-ArvizuSara_DeMariaMichael_2023-03-30.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Sheikh-Arvizu, Sara. Interview March 30, 2023 SC027-30 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Civil rights LGBTQ+ activism San Marcos (Calif.) LGBTQ life Chapman University Orange County Human Relations Commission (Orange County, Calif.) Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Michael De Maria .mp4 Sheikh-ArvizuSara_DeMariaMichael_2023-03-30.mp4 1:|10(12)|21(11)|30(12)|42(13)|49(13)|58(6)|68(14)|81(5)|91(17)|102(5)|110(12)|121(10)|132(3)|143(8)|155(16)|170(8)|179(10)|189(6)|205(12)|219(10)|230(6)|237(4)|245(7)|255(3)|266(16)|280(10)|287(17)|305(3)|315(16)|326(12)|334(17)|347(9)|357(10)|367(13)|378(13)|390(12)|403(2)|410(14)|420(5)|433(9)|444(11)|453(6)|463(14)|471(19)|482(3)|494(3)|503(19)|514(13)|524(7)|533(3)|542(3)|549(17)|557(16)|567(4)|578(10)|587(3)|598(5)|608(5)|618(16)|624(16)|631(7)|643(2)|662(5)|668(10)|676(11)|683(3)|691(18)|703(14)|712(5)|720(11)|728(19)|739(13)|749(5)|759(18)|768(11)|779(14)|787(4)|798(8)|808(12)|819(14)|829(4)|843(13)|852(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8c3d53da6a7254a1d38286db42d7e1dc.mp4 Other video English 1 Intro Oral history interview of Sara Sheikh-Arvizu by Michael De Maria, March 30th, 2023. 0 48 Early experiences with Social Justice Sheikh-Arvizu describes her experiences with social justice in college and the experiences that led her to want to pursue it as a career, including diversity training that greatly influenced her. 0 220 Activities in Social Justice Sheikh-Arvizu describes talking to people with diverse identities while attending academic conferences, as well as the impacts that had on her work in social justice, including her role as Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. 0 407 Projects at Chapman University Sheikh-Arvizu talks about the major projects that she led at Chapman University at the Office of Social Justice, where she held her first job after completing her undergraduate and graduate studies. 0 897 Joining the CSUSM Cross-Cultural Center Sheikh-Arvizu describes getting the opportunity to get to work for the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM as Associate Director ; she sought to execute a vision in a new space, as Chapman did not have a Cross-Cultural Center. 0 1116 Social Climate at CSUSM in 2008 Sheikh-Arvizu describes the climate of CSUSM at the time of her joining the Cross-Cultural Center as Associate Director in 2008. She describes the work around the Cross-Cultural Center as not being seen by the rest of campus and not being recognized as much as it should have been, with many students feeling like they were not being seen or heard as well. 0 1502 Proudest Accomplishments for the Cross-Cultural Center Sheikh-Arvizu discusses the major projects she led for the Cross-Cultural Center, including Cafe La Paz and the Social Justice Summit. 0 2170 Empowering Student Staff Sheikh-Arvizu recalls how she empowered her student staff at the CCC. Reflecting on herself a "yes person" who enjoys watching ideas become reality, Sheikh-Arvizu considers listening to her staff as a form of empowerment. She specifically recounts one experience with a former student staff member in their interview process. 0 2529 Sheikh-Arvizu's Favorite Memories of the Cross-Cultural Center After discussing ways in which she empowered her student staff, Sheikh-Arvizu shares two of her favorite memories revolving around the Cross-Cultural Center. One includes an individual memory regarding one of her first experiences running the Social Justice Summit, while another involves an interview of a potential CCC staffer. Sheikh-Arvizu recalls how the community of the CCC came together to support and prepare a student for their interview. 0 2890 How the CCC Impacted Sheikh-Arvizu's Professional Journey Sheikh-Arvizu remembers initial feelings of doubt regarding leadership of the CCC. However, she states she did not subscribe to the belief that a leader had to direct her staff. Rather, Sheikh-Arvizu remembers embracing and encouraging her staff to take charge and lead in their own way. Sheikh-Arvizu reflects on this setting the foundation for her professional career. Now working with Orange County Human Relations, Sheikh-Arvizu shares how the CCC has impacted her current work with diversity and inclusivity. 0 3491 Students, Community, Conversations, and the CCC Considering future students who interact with the Cross-Cultural Center, Sheikh-Arvizu shares that she would stress the importance of community. Sheikh-Arvizu considers the CCC as a community-friendly space that also engages with difficult conversations including racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and other forms of oppression. In addition to encouraging friendly connections, Sheikh-Arvizu stresses the duality of the CCC as it enables connection and safe space for difficult conversations. 0 3735 Underrepresented Communities Sheikh-Arvizu considers underrepresented communities on campus, as well as those that she works with in her current position with Orange County Human Relations. She considers both the importance and challenges of statistical data and how this impacts minority students. Sheikh-Arvizu discusses the importance of having difficult conversations so as not to erase the history and lived experiences of minority groups impacted by various forms of oppression. 0 4057 Future Direction of the Cross-Cultural Center Sheikh-Arvizu once again considers the communal aspects to be a major point of the CCC, and as something she knows will continue in the future. In addition to creating that communal environment within the center, Sheikh-Arvizu also believes the Cross-Cultural Center will continue to work closely with other student centers and organizations to better improve that communal atmosphere. 0 4318 Advice for Those Seeking a Career in Social Justice Michael De Maria inquires about any potential advice for those seeking a career in social justice. Sheikh-Arvizu considers a "home base community" crucial to her work in social justice. She also recognizes the importance of being surrounded by diversity, as well as the ability to ask and address difficult or uncomfortable questions regarding social justice and diversity. Sheikh-Arvizu also discusses how her role as a parent has shifted her approach to diversity and social justice work. 0 Sara Sheikh-Arvizu was Assistant Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University San Marcos from 2008 to 2011. In this interview, Sara discusses her roles at CSUSM and the various programs she initiated or facilitated. Sara also briefly discusses her current work with Orange County Human Relations. Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant here at CSU (California State University) San Marcos with Kellogg Library’s Special Collections Department. I'm joined here today by Sarah Sheikh-Arvizu. The date is March 30th, 2023, and the time is ten thirty-six A.M. So today we're going to be focusing on Sarah's involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, especially as it pertains to her stint as the Associate Director of Programs at the Cross-Cultural Center. So Sarah, thank you for joining me today. To start things off, I actually wanted to take things back a little bit. My first question is more about your background in the field, and I wanted to know when you decided to make social justice a focal point of your career. Sara Sheikh-Arvizu: I, it's a great question. Thank you. I'm happy to be here and be part of this project. For me, you know, to get-- jump right into your question, I wanted social justice to be the center of my work and my work life, since I was in college. I, there's a training that stood out to me. When I first became a student staff member on my own undergraduate campus. I was gonna be starting working in housing, and there was a diversity training which feels so regular and normal now, that's just part of what training involves. And it was at the time for me as well. But there was something that happened in that training that I felt like, “You know, I wanna be in this work and I want to do better.” I, it was a training that was focused on race, and what happened was they asked us to split up into two different spaces. A space for white folks and a space for folks of color, and I being mixed race, and there was about five or six other folks also, all sort of like walked up to the people who were facilitating, who were not directly our staff members, as another organization who came in to do this training, and asked “Where do we go? We don't fit into either one of these spaces.” And for us, we were looking for an answer and also validation. We were also offering to create our own space and asking if we could do that. And we weren't given permission to do that. We were told to choose one of those spaces, and that was a choice that I feel like I shouldn't have been asked to make. None of the five or six of us should have been asked to make. And honestly, I didn't want other folks to have to choose something like that in their experience on a college campus. So that really was like the moment that I wanted to be part of social justice work. It was honestly that moment in college. De Maria: Very, very interesting. And from then on, what sorts of organizations or activities did you involve yourself in, to kind of further that goal? And then also where did you attend undergraduate studies? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah so, my undergrad was at UC (University of California) Irvine , and other things I got involved with, some of it was just about learning for me. So, some of the things I got involved with were taking classes that were in gender studies, queer studies, and just learning more about what else was going on, right? Learning more about how we socially work together? You know, what does oppression look like? And kind of exploring and unpacking that. I think for me, other spaces that I was trying to get connected to and involved with was the LGBTQ Center on our campus. And so, I did a(n) internship there , connected to research. That was what my program, it was a requirement of my program as well, but I chose that as the place to do my site study. And then, and then just creating those spaces. So I, beyond my undergrad, the other places that I sought to be connected, education was always really important to me. And so, whenever I attended conferences as a professional, that was, I really focused all of the sessions I went to on learning more about folks that were different from me, had different identities than myself. So, I was drawn to topics about transgender students. I was drawn to topics about equity and how to measure and set out plans . So, like my (laughs) and my interest was wide. I wanted to, I tried to attend a lot of panels where folks were kind of sharing their stories or insight or, advice as it related to their identity. It was something that I felt like I needed to hear, but I also felt very validated in hearing those stories and really taking those on as something like, they were not my stories to take on, but they were the knowledge from what people were sharing I could take on and I could apply in other ways. De Maria: That's very, very profound, and look, talking about your background, I also know that you have your masters. Of course, you are quite educated , and you've emphasized a lot about the learning aspect of social justice and being a participant that way. So, I wanna shift gears here and start talking about your professional career, post education. I know that you were also a program coordinator at Chapman (University) prior to joining the Cross-Cultural Center. So, I just wanted to walk you through, or walk me through some of the major projects that you led there. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. (clears throat) Excuse me. Yeah, so I was at Chapman. That was my first professional job outside of undergrad and graduate school. And so, some of the projects that I focused on, so I was in the Office of Social Justice. So honestly, as a young professional it felt amazing to have a job where social justice was actually in the title of my position. I felt like it's what I was seeking . And what I found out when I was there was that they needed a lot of foundational work. So, something to really be a launching point for this Office of Social Justice. And so, what I did there was really try to figure out, “Okay, well what are the cornerstones of this office of the work?” And working directly with students to do that. For me, something that was a program that was well developed but was handed kind of, I don't know whether to say back to me or quote unquote my position or handed to me to lead, was a Safe, the Safe Space Training Program. So that was a program that I was kind of gifted. And for me, I wanted to expand it, expand the reach of that program, expand the depth of what that program could offer, with regard to training and education and visibility. And so, that was a focus area of what I tried to develop. So, to increase the committee that was really working on the safe space trainings and initiatives. We added a train the trainer component so that there were more trainers on campus and it wasn't, you know, focused on just three people doing every training for the whole campus. You know, rotating through, over and over. And then we increased the number and the types of trainings that we offered. So it wasn't, it wasn't solely like a-- essentially at the time LGBT101 ; really going over definitions and some case study work and unpacking bias and things like that. (We) started to do more trainings in addition to that, which was, which was amazing. And then other foundational pieces of the Office of Social Justice. Some of the work that students really wanted to do was have these landmark programs where they could keep doing it and build from every year, which I thought was a great foundation-setter. So, some of the programs that I remember starting there and then doing a few times in my time there (at Chapman), was we called it Reel Justice, R-E-E-L. So focused on films, right? So, exploring social justice through films. It was a film week, and we were showing films that were not, that were kind of along the lines of a theme. And something that was really unique that I loved that our students put into this was connecting with-- at Chapman there's an excellent film program where students are developing and creating and directing their own, producing their own films. So that was part of the Reel Justice program. Another one was a Peace and Earth Fair. So, it was also working with students who were in their student government, on a team called the Awareness Team. And so, they were also charged with doing programs that were more along the lines of awareness, raising awareness about justice was really the focus there. And so, they wanted to do a Peace and Earth Fair. And so, what was really cool about the way that they wanted to approach it, and they were kind of willing to explore was how do you align the purpose of the program with the process of the program? So, you know, if it's a Peace and Earth Fair and we're really focusing on earth justice, what kind of, what are we using? What are we, we're having tables out there, are we covering those tables with tablecloths? Are we covering them with something that we're gonna, you know, throw away? No! (laughs) So, really like going and going the extra mile to do research of, you know, how can we align this? How can we really show what this program is about in the way that we do it just as much as what's done. And then something that, two things that I was kind of proud of as well, that I think set the tone was starting to explore doing dialogue circles. So, something that I was hearing from more than more than a handful, particularly of white students, was saying, “I don't feel like I can be part of this conversation, this conversation about diversity, this conversation about equity, this conversation about social justice.” And my take is everyone can be part of this conversation and should be. And so, I created a dialogue circle that was really focused on opening space where folks could join, and be part of a conversation together. And it's really simple (laughs) in its, I don't know, in its purpose, was to just have this space. So, we put it out there, we collected people's schedules cause I didn't want schedules to be the thing that, you know, made people not able to participate in this conversation. We had a nine, it was like a nine or ten p.m. (laughs) dialogue circle that folks committed to, 'cause that's, those were the times that they were available and they were putting out there of like, “I wanna do it at this time.” And whew, as a non-student I was like, not exactly ready for a nine p.m. (laughs) dialogue. But that's when folks were available and wanted to participate. So, we did that and it really was just coming together in a circle, setting an intention and having this conversation where everybody was, could come and participate, and feel that sense of belonging to this conversation, belonging to this ideal of social justice. So those are some things that we tried to put together. I'm sure that there are more, but those are the ones that really stand out to me. De Maria: Very cool. And all of that sounds very foundational, so that's really awesome to hear. From that, I want to transition to discussing your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, I just wanted to ask, what led you to the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM, and why did you choose to depart from Chapman? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, so the opportunity came about like any opportunity does. I wasn't necessarily looking for anything, but you know, saw something come through just on a, on a listserv (computerized list utilized by organizations to email advertisements). And so, I looked at it. Something that Chapman did not have at the time was a Cross-Cultural Center. There was no physical space. Even the Office of Social Justice that I was the program coordinator for, it was an office. It was my office with a door and a window, and that was it and my desk. So, there was no concept of that physical space. Community looked very different, and ways to commune, to come together. It really was, you had to plan an event for people to come together. And so, I was really seeking to be in a space like that. Like the Cross-Cultural Center was named C3 at the time, (laughs) at Cal State San Marcos. And that's what I was seeking. There were, it was just a different kind of opportunity, a different way to build foundation and different kinds of opportunities as well. When I came in for my interview, you know I really was, I was taken aback in a very good way. Something that Dilcie (Perez), who was overseeing the (Cross-Cultural) Center and the Director of Student Life and Leadership at the time, something she wove into the interview, her interview with me, and I'm sure other candidates applying for the position was: “You know, we are a bit of pioneers here, so what does that look like for you?” And honestly, being asked that question just gave me a sense of there's opportunity here. There's an ability to have a vision, set a vision, and go for it. And I was really excited by that. I was excited that I was asked to think about that at an interview, not just when you know I, the day I started or whatnot. And that students were very much a center of the work. So, those things stood out to me. Different kind of opportunity and everything. Everything else that when people go for job interviews, all that excitement, energy that was there. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing that I'm kind of getting from our conversation is this theme of kind of laying down foundational work for others to build off of. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, that just gives me a little bit of insight about you and is also very inspiring. I want you to take me back to 2008 and just describe the social climate of CSU San Marcos at the time. I know that you're quoted in The Pride, the CSUSM newspaper, as kind of giving a little blurb about Facebook and the advent of social media with regards to organizing. And then, you also, or during that time, it was also the beginning of, essentially the beginning of the Obama administration. Sheikh-Arvizu: Right. De Maria: So again, just reiterating on the social climate of the campus. What was that like? What were you facing when you got into the role? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, what was I facing when I got into the role? I think this is maybe less on the social climate, but also the professional climate that I was kind of stepping into as well. I think folks were feeling like: we're doing this work and it's not seen. And we're tired. It's so hard. We're not given, there's not a lot of resources and, or resources are hard to come by, you know whatever that looks like. And so, so I felt like there-- resources could be money, resources could be space, resources could be knowledge about, you know, what these centers could offer. So, a lot of different things when I say resources. And so, I think that there was a sense of, there's a lot of students who wanna feel like they belong, but don't quite feel like they belong. That's my sense of what the social climate, cultural climate really felt like. And I think in addition to that, there was sense of there's not enough of us, us in it. And again, there could be lots of definitions of “us.” There's not, there's not enough queer students, there's not enough students of color, there's not enough Black students specifically , to really feel like our voices are being heard and seen and understood. And, you know, I love statistical data. And I also feel like stats are not everything. Because if you take stock, do a survey, do a you know climate some kind of climate survey, which we did, and the numbers come back ; again just you know statistically, when a population is only one, two, three percent of the whole population or the everyone who took the survey, it's quote unquote not statistically significant. However, that does not mean that people's experiences are not significant. They most certainly are. And if we continue to move those experiences aside because they are not, quote unquote the majority, and as a group they never will be, because that's not the majority of people who are at Cal State San Marcos or so many places. So, I think that people were actually like feeling that. They were experiencing in real ways what, how we talk about data. I think that folks were experiencing that as people, right? They were feeling like they were not significant enough to the university or in their classroom. And I wanna balance that with, you know, it didn't mean-- there were a lot of folks that cared, but I think it was just a sense of like we're, we're here but people aren't listening, or people don't care. And we need change. And yet more people than quote unquote the “us” didn't see it. So yeah, that's what I feel like (laughs) the climate was. And I think for me as a professional, the other thing that I saw is that there were a lot of folks that were trying hard, I think that I said that at the beginning. They were trying really hard. They were putting a lot of effort in. And so for me, what I felt like I was seeing was all these individual spaces or people were trying really hard, but they weren't connecting. And so that is specifically what I came in feeling like, okay, this is what I wanna do (laughs). I wanna make some connections. I wanna work together. Because this sense of, if we all have this sense that we're not being, we're not strong enough or our voice isn't loud enough, or people aren't hearing us, or we know that we matter, but we don't feel like we belong, what can we do about that? And so, for me it was really important to start to make connections, work together, come together, develop programs together, (laughs) so that that voice is a collective voice. De Maria: I see. And thank you for kind of outlining the challenges that you faced stepping into the role kind of as it related to what I mentioned with the social climate. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, similar to my question about your experience at Chapman, I'd love to hear about some of your proudest accomplishments for the Cross-Cultural Center, that you were spearheading when you were there. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. So, my time at Cross-- at Cal State San Marcos at the Cross-Cultural Center is like the little spark of my own candle that I feel like really continues to light what my professional career is, and it's because of the work that was done at San Marcos, the willingness, the people coming together. So, one of the programs that for me , I did have a vision for and also wanted folks to come together and envision together was the Social Justice Summit. And I know that it looks different now, as it should (laughs). It should not stay stagnant. That was never the intent. And however, but that's setting the foundation for having a multiple-day overnight retreat to talk, to unpack what social justice is, to unpack what the cycle of oppression and socialization look like, how it affects us, what we can do. That's what that program is about. And so for me, that was a program that I, like I said I had a vision for, but I wanted folks to come together and have this vision together and expand. It wasn't just about my vision. So, I worked with, at the time Rodger D’Andreas, who was the Director of the LGBTQ Pride Center. And I believe at the time briefly, he was also overseeing the Women's (and Gender Equity) Center, which I know is differently named now. Do you know what the name of that center is, Michael? De Maria: I, I—(interruption) Sheikh-Arvizu: It's okay if you don't! De Maria: I cannot recall it off the top of my head, unfortunately. Sheikh-Arvizu: That's okay. So, we'll just continue to call it the Women's Center because that's what I knew it as at the time. And, then other folks on campus and students coming together and saying, “Hey, this is this thought. What do you think? How can we do this? When can we do this? What would it look like? Let's develop essentially the curriculum.” And so, it was a-- people liked it. They wanted to be a part of it. They wanted to come, they wanted to be part of the committee, (laughs) they wanted to come. It was a great success. It was like one of those things where I feel like we were able to read what the social climate was and actually meet a need that was there. The need to come together, the need to know and see and understand that we weren't all alone. That there is actually a community that cares about a lot of these same things. And then this other piece of, now all of a sudden we had more language, we had more examples we had, and I say “we” cause I think that that is the important part. That was the important part, was that (clears throat). Excuse me. Folks did feel like a “we,” felt like there was a community. They could come together. So Social Justice Summit, and quickly I knew that, okay next year when we do this, we need to have student facilitators. It's not just about all of the staff and faculty coming together, teaching students. That's what, that's what happens every day in the classroom. But to have this kind of co-model of students and staff and faculty coming together to lead sessions, to lead dialogues, to conduct training together, conduct this Social Justice Summit together. And so, we started doing that as well the next year and just continuing to have a vision for what could be the future all the time. So that was a program. Something that was incredibly important to me was working together with other social centers, and to talk about what is this? What does social justice look like? Because if we're, if we're not working together then we're only really focusing on one kind of oppression. And when oppression, when one of us are affected by oppression, we all are. And there's not just one type of oppression. So I was, I feel so lucky that the professional staff and the student staff were so willing to come together. To come together to do trainings together, to come together to do programs together. Cafe La Paz was a program that came together where we opened one of the centers a week (at night). And that sounds kind of like, so what? (laughs) But it was really important because no center was open late at night. There was no space open at night for students. Now there's a student center (University Student Union) and it probably looks different. I'm imagining it looks different. I have been on campus, not at night though, since but it, the vibe is different now. But at the time, that wasn't the case. It was like five o'clock everyone's closed. And so, students were really saying, “We want a space to be, we're still here, we're still taking classes, or we're waiting for our next class. Like, but you're closed.” So, we tried to do that. Started with the once-a-week thing, and with the concept of rotating the center that was open so that again, this idea of community could continue to grow. So, Cafe La Paz grew out of that , that thought process. And it was a student run program. Professional staff weren't a part of it. We had a student from each of the centers who planned that week's or, oh gosh, I don't even know what time, I believe that week’s or that month's you know, Cafe La Paz was gonna be open late night. So, they planned what was gonna happen, what's the component from all three centers, what are we focusing on? What's the food, what's the, you know everything. So they really did that. And made sure that people showed up (laughs). And then for me, other things that... There's a lot of things that stand out, but for me, that central kind of line was making connections. So, making sure that faculty knew just as much about the Cross-Cultural Center and the social justice centers as staff did. That other offices did, that orientation did. And that we could start to be seen as a space where everyone was welcome. And that was really important to me. Again, back to that sense of, I started my career in social justice because I didn't feel like I belonged. And so, I wanted to continue to create opportunities and spaces where people felt like they could belong and connect no matter where they quote unquote were, right? On their own social justice journey. So, we did a trivia program and that came directly from (when) a student and I went to a conference. We heard a speaker talk about this idea of history and people of color having this history that's there, but it's totally, it's unknown in the U.S. (United States of America). When you , when you ask folks, you know U.S. history, anything about U.S. history, it's like this laundry list and it's all focused on the White center, right? And so, we were like, what would this, what would it look like if we started to actually know other kind, other histories that are not this list that everyone quote unquote knows and learns. Can we focus outside of the center? And so we did, we developed a (laughs), a multicultural trivia program. Again, it was meant as a thing of like, how can we connect? If folks don't want to come together, go to a Social Justice Summit for three days, that's not their thing, but they wanna do some trivia. Let's go it, let's do it. Right? So just trying to meet people in the space that they want to be in , or that's intriguing to them. And we did, we had some folks that came to trivia but never came to anything else. And that is totally fine because what we gained from that is someone who's still connected, still saying, “Oh this is important to learn. I'm excited to learn this because I'm showing up. And I have pizza, both.” (laughs) I think sometimes we, like in my profession in higher ed, when I was working in higher ed, we focus on the food a lot, a lot, a lot. And I actually think that the program stood on its own without pizza because people still participated. They didn't just show up for pizza and sit there and eat their pizza. They came, they got some pizza, they participated in the program. And really got into it (laughs). And we had zero prizes. It was a clap, like, “Yay, team four, you did it! You were the winners.” That's it. That's all you got. So it was really just like the experience of being there, coming together, having this fun, fun lunch. Which was very cool. De Maria: Very cool. So, just my takeaway from hearing about those programs, with regards to the summit in particular, it sounds like you were making a big impact on an issue that was more of a qualitative nature or difficult to quantify. And that also kind of shines through with the other examples of Cafe La Paz as well as those, that trivia program. In our introductory call, you also mentioned to me the importance of the student staff kind of being the lifeblood of the organization and providing tremendous assistance to you in a leadership position as well as other leaders. So, I just wanted to know about some of the ways that you empowered your student staff, and maybe what that experience was like. Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, I loved working with students. You know, my approach to empowering my staff was to listen. It was to open up the opportunity for them to think and explore and discuss and I always consider myself a yes person. I really like ideas. I love to see how an idea could turn into something real. And so, I really just encourage my staff to do the same. There are some moments with student staff that really stand out to me and I hope that folks will be okay (with) me talking about them. But having a staff member, this is prior to them being a staff member, 'cause it was an interview. Actually I have two interview moments that really stand out to me. But one was with a staff member in his interview and two of us interviewed him. We asked the questions and this student really struggled with the language. Was you know, (unclear) defining and using terms that we generally feel like is important. However, he had amazing experiences (and) connections. He was making these connections but did not have the terminology. So, it was like you know, the other person who did the interview was like, “I don't know, they don't seem like a good fit. They don't have this knowledge.” And I'm like, “Yes, yes. They have the knowledge. They have the knowledge because let's look back at all of these examples they were able to give. They are on point, they get it.” And I think that's what a lot of students are experiencing. They understand what's going on. They have the experiences and we can help put some of those words together. That's not a problem in my mind. And so, when I made the offer to this student, I think it was a little bit of a surprise 'cause I don't think that they thought they had a good interview. Because all things considered they didn't (laugh)! You know, like they stumbled through questions, all of that stuff. But, I think for me it was just being able to see something and then telling them, telling students like, “Hey, I see this in you. You talked about this. Tell me more about it. You mentioned this. Tell me more about that.” And just opening that space to get to know them , get to understand some of their experiences and what they wanted to do with that or how they wanted to make an impact. The other thing that I tried to do right away was make sure that all of the student staff, and if we had interns, anyone, anyone who was like working in some way, shape or form for the Cross-Cultural Center to open up opportunities for them to be elsewhere on campus, on committees. I had students chair committees and I had supervisors who were really nervous about that. And at times I was nervous about that too. But I felt like, “Okay, if folks are nervous about that, let's explore what the nervousness is about and also let's ensure that whatever they're nervous about isn't gonna happen. And even if it does, it's okay.” But just coming from the perspective of like, I just wanted to open up opportunities for students to be seen, to be heard, to have a voice, to lead. And essentially that's it. Because I really like ideas. We also shifted to a new space (laughs) during my tenure. And so, with in that move it allowed us the opportunity to say, “Oh, let's look around. What is this new space we're in? What could it be?” And it really was working with them on defining what it could be. And so, I think when they experienced that, what their thoughts were, their ideas mattered, and we-- and they could actually see it happen. Then to me they felt empowered to do more, to do differently, to take risks to also see themselves as leaders. And that, to me was the point. De Maria: That's very cool. (both laugh). Kind of going off of that, I mean, obviously we've been talking about your experience at the Cross-Cultural Center in depth. But in your own opinion, or in your own words, what was your favorite memory? Sheikh-Arvizu: Favorite memory? Well, you know, I left-- there's two and one is (a) very tiny moment, but it has significance to me. And one feels like a big thing. I was driving home after the first Social Justice Summit. I'm a complete introvert. So being with people, I have to focus a lot of attention and energy to really be present. And I was just at a three-day retreat with, you know, fifty people (laughs). So, I'm driving home by myself. I have the windows rolled down, no music because I cannot handle more like input after the weekend. That I was like thinking and saying to myself in my quiet car, “That was amazing! And there's so much we could do with this program in the future.” Like my, I know that I'm sharing a memory that was by myself, but it really wasn't the memory of me being by myself. It was the memory of this amazing program and the way that we as staff were able to shift in the moment based on what we saw , what we ha-- what happened, and the flexibility there. And then the students in watching their transformation in just three days of you know, there was an evaluation that I had read before I left as well. And it was like, “I did not believe. I did not believe that you were gonna pull this off!” Right? Like, that's the beginning of the evaluation. Like, I'm sitting in session, I was sitting in session one and I didn't think it was gonna go anywhere. And then they continued to write, and then this happened and this happened and this happened and this was a great experience. And I was like, wow! To both be able to write like this criticism of like, I didn't think this was gonna go well, to this really changed my perspective. Was (laughs) it was a great moment kind of collectively, individually . I feel like I'm not doing a very good job actually expressing what I was feeling about this, very awesome moment. But, that's where it was. I was like literally in my car, just processing this entire, the entire weekend in the moment. But then, in the processing also feeling, “Wow, I have so much energy and I have so much, there's so much more we could give to this program. There's more we can do.” And being excited to do that, even though it was gonna be a year later (laughs). And then another moment was small, like I said. Totally different person (laughs) interviewing, getting ready to interview, because they wanted to work for the Cross-Cultural Center. And he walks in, he has a shirt, a tie, and his baseball hat , which he always wore. And I was like, okay, this is awesome. I'm interviewing him. Well, later I find out that his peers coached him on how to interview. And that for me was the moment of like, it's a great memory because the community was taking care of one another. He was ready to walk in, in like a t-shirt that he wears every single day, which really, in a lot of spaces that's okay. But his peers were saying, “No, you gotta step this up. You know, this is an interview. It's different, it's different than just walking into the Cross-Cultural Center every day.” And at the same time, he wanted to be himself cause they were encouraging him not to wear his hat, but he kept his hat on. That was part of him. Someone else gave him the tie, right? Like this was literally all (laughs), the community was caring for one another in that moment. And so, I was just so proud of folks coming together and I was proud of him for keeping his identity as part of something that he wanted to be present at the interview. Right? So, I don't know, those were my two moments of like, it, they just really stood out for very different reasons. (laughs) De Maria: No, I completely get that. And I think, another challenge that we seem to be getting back to is the quantitative versus qualitative issue. Especially with subjects as profound as this, where people might not be represented. So sometimes that qualitative evidence is also very powerful to see in action . So that's super cool. Next, I wanted to, and again, previously you described your experience at the Cross-Cultural Center as kind of being the spark that fueled the rest of your career. So, this is again kind of like an abstract question, but I wanted to know just how the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional and further that journey? Sheikh-Arvizu: That's a great question. And also, I love abstract questions. (laughs) For me, I think part of me felt like I couldn't do it, be in that position, oversee and manage the Cross-Cultural Center. Because I had never worked in a Cross-Cultural Center before . And I had never been part of a student organization before (laughs). Particularly as it relates to, as it related to my identity. And so, part of me felt like, I don't know like I'm doing this work, but it kind of feels like I'm not doing this work. And at the same time, I also knew in my gut I could. It was just like fighting with my own perception of how other people might have perceived me, right? All in my head, but also all in my heart, right? Like, my experience as a person, as a human being, as a mixed-race person, as a queer person. I'm sitting in all these spaces where it's like, I don't often hear that I belong and I can do it. I could do this, I could do this thing that maybe it doesn't seem I'm really qualified for. And so, what the spark was, was I feel like I sort of came into my own power of I can do this and I don't have to be the center. I never really connected with this sense of a leader is someone at the front. They're taking the podium, they have the microphone, they can be seen, they are the first on the list for people to invite. Like I wasn't, I didn't subscribe to that kind of leadership. And so , I felt I could do my kind of leadership and I could also see other people's kind of leadership and say, “Do it! Do your kind of leadership, do it your way.” And I didn't feel I had to prove myself and say, “I am the center stage. This is my program!” No, it wasn't (laughs). I literally did not set structures like that where I was the one leading the program. I was the center. It really was let's do this together, or let me support you (laughs). It's not mine, it's yours. This is your idea. You carry it. Let's figure out how to do it. And, I think that what I learned was I could have a vision. I did have a vision for the Cross-Cultural Center and I could have that vision with other people. And I, that was really, really revolutionary to me that I could have a vision and we could have a shared vision together. And it didn't have to be so individualized. That does not seem like the rest of the culture around me, that does not seem like what it means to be in American society. And so I really held onto that. I still hold onto that, that sense of like, it's better when we do it together. It's better when we have a vision for this together. It's better when we can see our differences and learn what that means. Learn why things matter differently. Learn to take on perspectives that are different from you. So, it felt like I learned a lot during that process. It felt like I set a foundation for myself professionally, not just for that space, the Cross-Cultural Center as a space, as a community and things like that. I felt like I wanted to live what I said my values were. And that was the place that I feel like my alignment was really, really close. De Maria: Very, very cool. Going off of that line of questioning just about you as a professional , and kind of what you took from the experience, I know that you're currently working with OC (Orange County) Human Relations (Commission) on several projects. So, I just wanted to know how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center influenced the programs that you're working on currently. And maybe what some of those programs are (both laugh). Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Well, so I am a training specialist in Orange County Human Relations, (laughs). By the time this oral history project is done, we likely will have a different name as an organization (laughs). Okay. So it'll be a little bit obsolete, but that's okay. It is what it is. I, and I just started in my role. I was in a different role prior . So, some things that I've done in the organization that I feel like do have a connection to Cal State San Marcos, and working at the Cross- Cultural Center ; I'm training and I'm coaching folks on how to align who you say you are and how you do that work, right? So, we say diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging are all important to us and are important to us in our organization, are important to us in our school, our school district, or in our community? Okay! How do you do that? What does that look like? How do you measure that? Right? So, I feel like I asked very pointed questions right then like boom, boom, boom, right? And lots of times it's more gentle. It's, and also lots of times it's a lot of different kinds of questions. So, what I feel like is the connection for me, from (CSU) San Marcos is this idea of well, when you have a vision (you) have to be able to figure out how to put things in place, right? So, if we have the vision of, living in a community that values equity and enacts, that is an equitable place, then we need to do some hard work. And sometimes that hard work could be training, sometimes that hard work could be conversations and dialogues. Sometimes that hard work is assessing how hate and hate incidents and crimes are impacting our community. And that's all work that I feel like I'm touching or part of directly at Orange County Human Relations. And pulling community together I think is kind of the other theme. On a college campus community is, tends to be the college community or the community of students in particular. So, it's like this little bubble of, you know, built-in community. But working at Orange County Human Relations, that is not just built in. And, you know: timing, availability, interest, money, all of that. Funding, I should say, more than money. Right, all of that plays a role. And so, but still figuring out how do we come together and have a common vision. Literally just went through with a group on writing a mission statement (laughs). So, you know, creating that vision and also laying out how do we do this? This is who we say we are, how do we do it? De Maria: Very, very cool. I do have a few more questions left. And all of them are more about sort of the future of the Cross-Cultural Center and possibly social justice in general. But looking ahead, what aspirations do you have for future students who interact with the Cross-Cultural Center? Want to get involved? Sheikh-Arvizu: I feel like I would just want students to, to try it out. I mean community is really what we make it to be. And it's a we. So, if as a person, if right, if you're seeking community wherever you are, is where community can be. And it means, and it means stepping in, it means taking a risk. It means saying hi. It means going to a program. It means just seeing yourself there. That's all very abstract (laughs), but I think, you know, there's lots of places to connect and find community. You can connect and find community in the chem lab that you're working in, right? Or researching in or studying in. And, and I think for me, the Cross-Cultural Center is a different kind of community in that you can kind of go back and forth between exploring common interests and activities and also talking about how oppression, racism, sexism, identity, politics, how that plays a role in your life. And feel like oh, actually these other folks get it. I don't have to explain that much. And they're here with me for me. And, and we can eat fries together. It just spans so many different kinds of ways to connect. And I think, you know, if you're looking for multiple ways to connect, it's a great way, it's a great space! I would say any identity-based space is a great space cause it's like the opportunity to feel connected to other people, to other identities, to your own identity. And also potentially other things like music, food, we can go play sports together, you know, whatever that is. Yeah, I think that everyone needs, that needs to feel a sense of validation. And for me, I think identity spaces, social justice spaces are spaces where that can happen. De Maria: I think that's beautiful. Sheikh-Arvizu: Are you okay? You this like—(interruption) De Maria: I'm complete. I'm completely fine. Sheikh-Arvizu: Okay. De Maria: Just very, very profound experiences that you're sharing with me that I really appreciate. De Maria: So, regarding my next line of questioning, I also wanted to ask you about what communities you feel might be currently underrepresented on our campus, or possibly bringing some attention to some underrepresented communities that you're currently working with. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Ooh, great question. I cannot possibly answer that question (laughs), because I'm not there and I have not looked, I've not really walked on campus. I haven't looked at any demographics at all again, like that like I can look at paper, I can look at numbers. However, I think that your last add in there to the question , like populations that I'm also working with you know. I think that... I, last year was charged with writing our hate crime report for the on behalf of the county and, something that I feel like were like central communities that were really impacted. And I personally feel like in the report, but I'm sure out of the report, beyond the report, the depth is much greater and could never be captured in a report. It was the Black community ; so small, percentage wise, right? In the county. And I'm in Orange County right now so, the Black population is about two, sometimes three percent of the whole population of Orange County. But the number of hate incidents and crimes that are because of Black hate, right? Is completely disproportionate, is like exponentially disproportionate. And so really focusing on seeing that community other communities as well. I feel like numbers keep rising for anti-Asian hate and Latinx hate. I feel like numbers... numbers, incidents, experiences, uh, like a little snippet of like media also capturing this rise also in numbers and gravity of anti-LGBTQ hate, and anti-Semitic hate and like how that, that actually as a center for lots of different kinds of hate, kind of like, it looks like what it looks like to the eye. And folks maybe particularly not in the Jewish community where, it's like you could see a swastika and also the n-word both at the same time, right? Graffiti somewhere and it's like, so is that anti-Semitic? Is that anti-black? Like what is that? Whew. And unpacking that is like so much I think for folks, I don't think it's so much for the Black community or the Jewish community, or the Black Jewish community both, right? To unpack. But I think for a lot of other folks it's like, “What kind of hate is that? How do we describe it? Why? Why is this, what is this connection?” But it's really important that we do unpack it, we do explore it, we do start to understand what that means and why, and how it's progressing. It really scares me that we are in a time of, where in the country , that history is being removed, that literally people's histories are being removed, people's existence are being removed from curriculum. And that's really scary to me. That did not exactly answer your question, but I think for me there was a connection there. De Maria: It did answer my question very thoroughly actually. So thank you. And I've got two more questions left to kind of wrap up the interview. But first I just wanted to ask you what direction you think the Cross-Cultural Center should grow in? Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, also one that I do not feel equipped. So I was only there for like, two and a half years? Pretty small. And there, both on campus and with the Cross-Cultural Center, the Cross-Cultural Center is in a different space even than it was when I was there. I was there for two spaces and I was there to advocate for how much physical space the next Cross-Cultural Center should occupy. So, it is now in that space and now there are more identity spaces, more cultural spaces and centers. And for me, I think with the work that I'm doing now, it still has a collaborative communal coming together need. And I would hope that that's what's happening now too, for the Cross-Cultural Center, right? But there, that the Cross-Cultural Center, the students, the staff, are working with other centers and other spaces and other student organizations and there's connections. That's what I, that's what I, I don't know, future, future (laughs). But I think it's really important to come together. I think it's also really important to make statements, so people know that they're supported. And I think that this is not necessarily just about the Cross-Cultural Center specific space or leadership there ; it's like a broader everywhere that we look to leaders in positional, with positional power, specifically with titles , right? Like presidents, vice presidents, you know, whatever the titles are directors. We look to them, we expect that, we expect to hear from them when something affects the community. And I would encourage that to happen. Right? The-- I am not criticizing anything at all. I'm just saying it should happen, period. If it is awesome, because hopefully what that means is that students feel like they do belong and there's, there's connection there. And they're safe. They're safe in who they are. They're safe in their identity, they're safe to be and belong. And so that I think is important. To take a stand, to say something , right? To say, “We care to say this is not okay here.” If there is hate or if there is, and I say “if,” and really I know that it happens. It's there. It is there, it's everywhere. So yeah, just making sure people feel like they matter, individuals and communities. De Maria: Totally. And wrapping things up, again you continuously kind of reference this process of learning, which is an extremely important part of understanding social justice and also participating in it. Whether that's learning about somebody else's culture, learning how to communicate about someone else's culture to them, or learning how to ultimately take a stand and become a voice in your community. With that being said, if someone were interested in pursuing a career in social justice much like yourself, what tips would you give them? Sheikh-Arvizu: Wow. I think for me, having that sort of like home-base community or people is really important. Folks that you can say, “Hey, this is happening and I don't get it, or I feel like I messed up,” or “What am I missing?” It's really important to have those people in your life! Particularly doing social justice work, because social justice work is hard and it is literally every day. It could be your, the, you know, quote unquote nine to five, like what you're doing during the day , and then you go pick up some dinner and somehow there's still some like quote unquote “social justice work” that needs to be done there (laughs). So it doesn't necessarily, there's not like a timeline like, oh, it's five o'clock, I'm not doing this work anymore. So I think to like have, have your people, whoever those people are, people that you can count on, people that can support you, people that can listen, people that can challenge you, people that can show you a different perspective. And those people should not look like you. Not all of them, maybe some of them. They should-- and when I say look like you, I don't exactly just mean look like you, I mean look like you, think like you, have the same identity markers as you do, or if not like you like one kind of person, right? And to kind of do that inventory and see like what perspectives am I missing in my own life, in my professional life. I think don't be scared (laughs). Don't be scared to be the learner as much as the teacher or trainer or coach. Sometimes I feel like my career was like poking a stick. I was like, look at this (laughs, waves imaginary stick in air), right? Like, look at this thing, what's happening? And I wanted people to see, and you know what? There was certainly a place for that. There's a place for that in my career. I felt like the organization, you know, needed that at the time or different organizations, more than one, right? Needed to see what was happening! And I, what I appreciate now in my career too, and where I am, is that other folks can do that. I can still do that and it might look and sound a little bit different than it did when I was in my early career (laughs), in my career at Cal State San Marcos, where I could say, “Look at this! This is a problem!” And, or I could hear it from a student, I could say, “Then say that, right?” Like, you go do it. “Say that somewhere. Uh, your voice is powerful.” So I think like those lessons I, for someone who wants to get to get into social justice or stay, it doesn't mean you're not in a social justice like job career focus already, is to know your way, right? Know your power, find your power, explore it, see, you know, what works where. And it might be different tactics in different places, and I think it's important to test it out and to lean into other people, to um, you know, see if they could be more effective or more effective with you together. I think too that, you know, for a lot of folks it won't feel like social justice is the center of your work. It won't! You might be doing something else. It doesn't mean that you have to discard social justice or the idea or goal of equity. You don't have to toss it away. It can still be part of your work. There's a lot of like individual things that you can do. There's a lot of cultural things that you can do that, where it can still be central to the way you think about your work, to the way you approach your work, to the way you approach outside of the workplace. I'm now a parent. The way you approach parenting to the way (laugh). Like, I know for me, like what a mind-shift of like, oh, I value this in my work and in my life, but now I have a young human and they are doing things I did not expect! But am I doing things that I didn't expect with my values in social justice and equity with my values in listening and opening up space? Whew. That's hard (laughs). And it's hard, I know I'm framing it in this parent space, but also it's hard when you're in other workplaces again, where social justice might not be the center of the work that you're doing, but it's like, I'm in this organization and like I don't feel like I'm showing up as mys-- As the self I want to or I'm not being supported. Sometimes that means it's okay to leave. It is okay to leave! It's also okay to stay and challenge if that's what you have the capacity for. And you should, if you have the capacity for that or that's what drives you, then do it. Do it that way. If you do not have the capacity or it is a toxic environment, it is okay to leave. And continue your social justice work somewhere else in another space. It can look different. It's okay (laughs). It's not like you don't have to constantly struggle all the time or feel like you don't belong, or that you don't matter at all in a space that's not-- I mean those organizations need to change and do better and do different, but it doesn't mean that you have to be the, you don't have to bear the brunt of that work that they're not really ready to do. I was all over the place with that (laughs), but the, the, the thought of a career in social justice is, like... my thought before my career began in social justice is very different than what my career has been. And so that's where I feel like I have a lot of different like, thoughts of what that can mean for folks. And it can be so different based on the person and your identities and the institutions that you are in. Right? And who even is your network of people, or what's needed in the organ-- in different organizations. I thought I was a great fit for other jobs. I was not. I was not selected. There were other people out there who are doing this work, so also connect. It's okay! They're, they wanna do this work too. They're qualified to do this work. Like, so that sense of like leaving competition out. I dunno. Or putting it in check. De Maria: Very, very cool. I think based on those tips as well as the other information you shared with me, you're an excellent resource for someone who's interested in going into the social justice field. So I really appreciate you taking time out today, Sara, and speak to me about your involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center as well as some of the work that you're doing now. And I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone trying to learn more about social justice initiatives in their community and how to get involved as well as the history of the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So just wanted to thank you again for taking time out to speak to me about this. This has been a very, very special, special interview. Sheikh-Arvizu: Of course. And I'm here, I'm still here. We have Zoom, we have phone calls, we have, there's so many ways to connect. So yes, if I'm a resource for someone that's listening or watching (laughs) in the future, but you wanna make a connection that's open, like that's available too, right? And I, and I'm pretty sure that, that, I hope, and I'm sure it will stand for other folks that are part of this project and that's why we wanna be part of this project, right? Like not just for the history component, but the future component, which is important. De Maria: Absolutely. Well, we obviously appreciate it. Again, thank you for your time and yeah, I know this isn't the end of your journey. So, (I’m) very excited to see what else you go on to do in your career and what other the communities you’ll impact. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, thank you Michael. Thank you. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=Sheikh-ArvizuSara_DeMariaMichael_2023-03-30.xml Sheikh-ArvizuSara_DeMariaMichael_2023-03-30.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sheikh-Arvizu, Sara. Interview March 30, 2023. Description An account of the resource Sara Sheikh-Arvizu was Assistant Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University San Marcos from 2008 to 2011. In this interview, Sara discusses her roles at CSUSM and the various programs she initiated or facilitated. Sara also briefly discusses her current work with Orange County Human Relations. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-30 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Chapman University Civil rights Education, Higher LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ life Orange County Human Relations Commission (Orange County, Calif.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Orange (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Activists and activism Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history LGBTQIA+ experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arely Ramos OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Ramos, Arely. Interview April 15, 2023 SC027-42 00:47:18 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Child care services Human rights California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign San Marcos (Calif.) Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Chula Vista (Calif.) Arely Ramos Seth Stanley Video RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-15 1:|20(7)|34(4)|58(13)|72(3)|90(16)|105(17)|123(2)|141(15)|160(11)|175(10)|187(14)|200(3)|221(13)|235(5)|254(3)|271(5)|284(14)|297(13)|313(4)|329(14)|350(17)|364(11)|378(11)|398(10)|411(6)|437(14)|452(4)|466(14)|477(10)|490(13)|505(3)|523(17)|538(3)|555(16)|566(10)|583(11)|598(11)|616(4)|626(11)|643(3)|659(4)|677(13)|688(15)|707(15)|723(11)|744(12)|754(7)|764(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/270e334876fd89f8a73a5766cff99dcc.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction Seth Stanley is interviewing Arely Ramos. 0 20 Ramos' Inspiration Becoming a Social Worker Ramos explains how her experience working in outreach and at health centers made her realize she wanted to do more for her community. Ramos' sister also played a major role in her aspirations in becoming a social worker. These experiences made Ramos pursue an education in social work and she has loved it ever since. Medi-Cal ; Family health Center of San Diego ; Social Worker 0 260 Ramos' Day to Day Tasks Ramos explains her day to day tasks as a social worker. She works with foster youth, homeless families and the parents of the youth who may have food or financial insecurities. She counsels students, provides tangibles, and communicates with the county and school's staff to ease the social and emotional burdens of the students so they can excel academically. foster youth ; Chula Vista School District ; Homeless ; McKinney Vento 0 438 Starting at the Cross-Cultural Center/ Civility Campaign Ramos describes what the Cross-Cultural Center looked like when she first started and how it changed when it moved to the Student Union. She explains how the practice of Social Justice and making a change for the community is what drew her to the CCC. Ramos helped create the Civility Campaign and was given full jurisdiction over the activities for the campaign. She helped create a safe space for students and a place for difficult conversations amongst a great diversity of students. Civility Campaign ; Social Justice ; change ; Cross-Cultural Center ; creativity ; student leadership ; workshops 0 1008 Inclusivity Ramos explains the challenges she faced as the center was often perceived as a space for a specific group of students. She explains how she helped increase the representation for various groups and how she helped make it a center of inclusitivioty for all. Since the CCC had such supportive staff and leadership she felt like this challenge made her grow as an individual. inclusitivioty ; challenges ; Asian Pacific Islanders ; Latin x ; Latino ; Pride Center 0 1232 Peer Mentoring Program/Favorite Memory Ramos explains how the Peer Mentoring program helped students not only academically but created a place for vulnerability and a sense of belonging on campus. Her favorite aspect about the Cross-Cultural Center is how it felt like a second home and how various programs started working together. vulnerablity ; belonging ; civility campaign ; mentor 0 1615 How CCC Helped Ramos Grow Professionally, Academically, and Socially The CCC helped Ramos learn how to create agendas, manage a team, lead events and take on tasks that would be beneficial to her in her career. It helped her feel supported academically and feel encouraged as she pursued her higher education. The CCC also allowed her to be vulnerable and learn how to advocate for others and to make a change. collaboration ; leading ; managing ; Social Justice ; vulnerability 0 2133 How The CCC has Grown and Can Grow Ramos explains how the CCC has become more structured in terms of their focus, exposure and resources. She explains how she hopes the CCC will start to partner up with communities and organizations to provide exposure outside of the university. This will provide students with the realization that they actually can make a difference and give back to their community. giving back ; community ; impact ; resources 0 2472 How the CCC Can Coexist With Centers Ramos explains how the center must not be viewed as a space only for a specific community but as a center that provides inclusitivioty for all. She explains the importance of centers that have specific identities but that the CCC must help centers collaborate and intermix at times. inclusitivioty 0 Video Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Arely Ramos for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 15th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Arely. Arely Ramos: Hi Seth. (both talking) Stanley: Thank you for being here. Hi. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Stanley: I guess to start, we'll just start easy here and just say, can you tell us a bit about your background and how it led you to becoming a social worker? Ramos: Sure. I definitely think it really started when I was a student at San Marcos. I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center it really wanted me--I think I just really, I loved it there, and I think it just really exposed me to a lot of different populations and just wanting to help people. And so my sister actually was also a big influence of me, of why I wanted to be a social worker. So after that, after graduating from San Marcos, I did become employed with Family Health Centers of San Diego. And I did a lot of outreach there. So I did a lot of outreach in downtown San Diego where I was able to help support communities and try to get them connected to Medi-Cal services and health services. And then I just felt like I wanted to do more. I was like, I need to get out there a little bit more and support, you know, the community and anyone that I can. So I went back to get my master's degree at San Diego State University where I was a Title IV-E recipient (provides two years of support for full-time students who complete a Master’s in Social Work program). So I was able to get I guess like a scholarship to work for the county for child welfare services. So that kind of led me there. And then I was an intern there and I--I was an intern with Child Welfare Services, and then I was employed there for about a year. And then I, there was just a huge need working with our foster families. I loved it, but, you know, the caseload is, it's a tough job (both laugh), and so I kind of wanted to work with the kiddos more one-on-one. And so that kind of led me to where I'm at now, where I'm a district social worker for, actually my own childhood Chula Vista Elementary School district. Stanley: Oh. Ramos: So I'm able to work with foster students and McKinney-Vento students, so families who identify as being homeless, where I provide case management and counseling services. So I love my job and I love social work. I think just how broad the field is. I just wanna help others. And so that's kind of how my journey led me to social work. Stanley: That's really awesome. That's really cool that you got to go back to your school there. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: And help people there. (both talking) Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: That's, that's a dream of mine as well. You said that your sister influenced a lot of your, your going into social work. Could you tell me about that? Ramos: Yeah. I think, you know, we are both very similar in, you know, what we like and just, you know, social justice. And I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center, my sister was like, “Oh my gosh, go for it.” Like, “That's such an awesome job.” And I think she really pushed me towards that area of social justice and, you know, standing up for others. So she was actually in Title 4-E, the same program that I was at, but at (Cal State) San Marcos. And so she's the one who told me about child welfare services and you know, I learned a lot from her. And so I think--we both were in the same field, and I think it's really awesome to have a family member who understands the field. And so she definitely inspired me to continue that route. And it was just great to have her because we both know, you know, the trauma that comes with it, the secondary trauma we're exposed to, and so it was a big influence. Stanley: Yeah. That's, that's really great. You, you work as a district social worker now you said you, you talked about it a little, but could you tell me what you do on a day-to-day basis? Ramos: Yeah, so I'm smiling 'cause I love my job (both laugh). But I think I just, I always knew I wanted to come back to this job because when I was an intern in grad school, my first-year placement was with the district, the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And I didn't know that a program like this existed. So I think just coming back to it now, I'm, I'm so happy about it. And, you know, a little bit more of the day-to-day is it--it changes. It really just depends on what goes on, what families we work with. But a typical day, you know, I would have to do counseling sessions with some of my students. And again, I only work with foster youth students and McKinney Vento. So students who identify as being homeless, it can be like living in their car, living with another relative in motel, hotel, shelters, or, you know, on the streets. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And so really I provide that support for the students with counseling, but I also do case management with the parents. And so that means referring them out to resources out in the community. Like if I can get them motel vouchers or, you know, tangibles, like sleeping bags or a little crock pot or something that they can cook in, gift cards for food, sweaters, underwear, hygiene products. So it really just depends day by day, because sometimes our database doesn't capture the families when they register at the school district. And so what happens is I really have to work close with the schools. So I'm assigned about six schools in our district. Stanley: Wow! Ramos: Yeah, it's a lot. So there's about fifty schools in our, in our district. It's probably one of the largest in California, but there's a, there's a team of now eight of us. And so we each have about six to seven schools to us assigned. And again, the same populations, but we really just try to support the families because we know if students are not doing well socially and emotionally, they're not gonna do well academically. So we're trying to remove those barriers and really trying to support them in that way, so that they can focus and so that we know we can communicate with the school staff and let them know what's going on. Even providing them bus passes or transportation. We really just want the best for our kiddos. So yeah, that’s a little bit about my day-to-day and I know I actually do have an intern from (Cal State) San Marcos, so I love that. It's kind of like a whole circle (laughs), so it's, it's really awesome. Stanley: Well, that's really great that you're helping out people. That's incredible. If you don't mind me asking, which, which school district is it? Ramos: Chula Vista Elementary School District. Oh, yeah. So my hometown (both laugh). Yeah. Stanley: Going back to your time at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), you, you had a variety of positions at the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center). Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Ramos: Yeah, I remember oh boy, I remember it. Being located at a different section of CSUSM, so I think now where it's at the Student Union, it wasn't there when I had started. It was a little bit I don't even know the names of the buildings, but (laughs), it was a little bit higher up. I don't know what, what it was called. But- (both talking) Stanley: I know at one point it was at Craven and at what point it was, I think at University Hall, I think? Ramos: I think it might've been Craven. Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot where honestl-- (both talking) Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: But I just remember there being like a big red couch (both laugh), and I remember, I remember we were in transition to getting it moved to the Student Union. And so I thought it was really cool that I got to experience it being there with a big famous red couch (laughs) because we were transitioning everything over to the other office. So I was there for a little bit, but I really was there when it got transitioned to the Student Union. And it was a lot more modernized. You know, our red couch wasn't there anymore, but it was still, it was still home to a lot of the students and to myself. So I thought that was a really cool experience. And I loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I was there every day. Even if I didn't work, if I didn't have a shift (laughs). Stanley: That is, that's so funny. I keep hearing about these red couches (both laugh). Ramos: Yeah. It's famous. I, we should have taken a picture and framed it in the Student Union because it was, it was a comfy couch. Stanley: Alright, moving on. What motivated you to apply for positions at the Cross-Cultural Center, and what positions did you hold during your time there? Ramos: I think what motivated me, motivated me to apply was just that social justice aspect. Like, I wanted to be a part of something that I could potentially you know, really give to the university. Like as far as creating workshops or I guess just sharing my lens and trying to really create something that maybe was still being developed. Because we didn't really have a full on established, I mean, it was in the making. 'Cause I think (California State University) San Marcos was still developing as a whole as a university, so I just wanted to be a part of something that I can try to help develop. And so I know when I was there, one of the big roles that I had was the Civility Campaign. It was like my baby, because (laugh), you know, there, it wasn't really, there wasn't really a, a huge foundation I think when I had started. So it was really just trying to create something with Floyd (Lai), which was the director and still is the director. But he, he really allowed me to be creative and kind of, you know, go with what I kind of envisioned for the Civility Campaign. So a lot of that was having like monthly, cultural, I don't even know how to say it. Just a lot of different cultural activities or events related to that month. So like Women's Herstory Month, Black History Month, Latino Heritage Month. So it was just a lot of those tough conversations that we tend to shy away from as students where like, we don't really wanna be involved in something that can create that tension or that people don't wanna talk about. And so I try to make it fun, but also have having that difficult conversation to have. And I remember one of the, the biggest events that I did have was it was a Civility Campaign, but I don't remember the name. I'm so sorry, my memory is so bad (Stanley Laughs). But it was, we did an event where we created booths. So we had, at each booth we had an activity. And so we, you know, one of the, one of the things was having the couches there and like picking from the fishbowls and kind of creating questions, difficult questions about how people identify or, you know, what their thoughts were on specific situations. And so, it really opened that dialogue with students to just kind of get out there and really just talk to people you haven't met before, but also learn about their own story and their, their upbringing. Stanley: Well, I actually was gonna ask you about the Civility Campaign, so I'm glad you brought it up. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: Would you would you mind talking about it a little more, like describing what, what the, what it was all about and what your role was in it? Ramos: Sure. So I, again, I think, you know, because it was so, it was still being created. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: There wasn't really a huge foundation to it. So I think we were just trying to create it with Floyd (Lai), with Student Leadership. We were really just trying to create those workshops and dialogues again, like I mentioned where we could have students have a safe space to talk about things that, you know, might be--create tension in the world. And so I think at that time we were really just trying to create that safe space for students and to have that dialogue where there is support and they can have a center to go to. And so I think the Civility Campaign really brought a lot of students together with the events that we would have. There was so many volunteers, and I thought it was so awesome because it was a brand new--and we had these bright green shirts. I think now the color is baby blue, so it's a little more neutral (both laugh). But I remember just like, if you saw the bright green, you're like, okay, that's Civility. That's a Civility Campaign. Or, you know, that might be an event through the Civility Campaign. So it, I think it was just a really cool opportunity to bring out different discussions revolving around social justice and what was going on at the time with, you know, everything so (laughs), I think it just really gave us an opportunity to create something new. And I think now they have workshops at the Cross-Cultural Center where the students can come in and there's different presenters, kind of like the little TED Talks. And so I thought that was really cool to see it grow. Stanley: Uh-hmm. That's, that's great. And I, I like that you were able to be a part of that. Ramos: Yeah, it was, it was definitely fun (both laugh). Stanley: Could you, could you tell me about your different positions at the Cross-Cultural Center and how your responsibilities may have changed depending on the roles? Ramos: Yeah. I think, oh, I don't even remember my first one, but I just remember being very involved with the Civility Campaign and kind of creating those events every month. But I also, you know, just the typical day at the Cross-Cultural Center like the, when I wasn't trying to plan events--I think at the Cross-Cultural Center, it was really just a space for me to welcome in new students. So, you know, being at the front desk, welcoming new students, talking to them about what the center was and you know, that this was a safe space for them to be at. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And so I think, you know, there was a lot of, I think at the time we were trying to get a lot of different kind of populations coming into the center because a lot of the students felt like, “Oh, you know, it's only this group that is allowed in here.” And we were like, “No, it's for everyone.” Like, “I know there's only one population that you may see daily here, but everybody's welcomed and just really trying to create friendships with strangers or, you know, students we haven't met.” And I think that was one of the important roles that we had being like the (Ramos makes air quotations) receptionist, I guess you can say at the Cross-Cultural Center. I remember it being very known for like, “Oh, I heard this center, you can print for free here for like essays.” And I was like, “Oh, that's not what, it's just about” (both laugh), you know? So I think just really trying to have those conversations with students and letting them know, it's more than just a place where you can print. And so we really, I think my role was really just to create that safe space for students and to really welcome them there at the center. And introducing them to other students. I know sometimes we would have students come in a lot, but to study or even just hang out on the couches were, which weren't as comfy as the red couches, but (Stanley laughs) they would hang out in there and we would really try our best to feel everybody, make everyone feel welcomed, whoever came in. Stanley: That's, yeah. That's good. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. You mentioned that people thought that it was for one group of people. Who were the people coming in most commonly to the Cross-Cultural Center during your time there? Ramos: Yeah, I think it was--I would wanna say there was a lot of you know, people who identify as being a part of the Asian community at the time. And so I think we--different groups from like Greek Life who were a part of different, sororities or fraternities would come in. And we really wanted to make sure people didn't think, those are the only people who are welcomed here. And I think we were really trying to take that, like, stigma away from our students. And so I think we, I think we did a great job. But, you know, we wanted--we didn't want people to be like, “Okay, you guys can't hang out here anymore.” Like, we're trying to get other people in here. No. It wasn't like that at all. I think we really just try to welcome anyone there. And I think one of my things that I really enjoyed as part of the Civility Campaign was the volunteers that we would have, I would try to , bring them in (both laugh) and kind of just hang out there so that people can see that there's a lot more than what is being seen and represented at the moment. And so I think, I think that was so important, especially because at that time there was also the Latino Center (Latin /x Center) and the LGBTQ Center (Pride Center) that was down the hall. And so we didn't want it to make it seem like, okay, only if you identify as those populations or ethnicities, like those are the only people allowed there. I think it was much more than that. And we were really trying to get that point across, especially the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, we really wanted to expose any type of student in there. They didn't have to identify a certain way or anything at all. So we really just wanted to open that space for anyone who needed the support or the safe space. Stanley: Yeah. Just all about inclusivity, right? Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What was a, what was a challenging aspect of your work at the CCC and how did you navigate it? Ramos: I don't know if I ever really feel challenged except for what I just explained right now (both talking). Stanley: Oh that's good. Ramos: Just to make it more inclusive, but I think I had a lot of support from Floyd and just the staff that were there. I don't think I ever really felt negatively challenged. I would say, it's more in a positive way where it helped me develop, like as a person and my own professional development, because we were tasked to sometimes run our team meetings. And sometimes that would make me feel uncomfortable but I'm so grateful for it now (both laugh) because I think that that helped me a lot and built that confidence. And so I don't think I've ever felt negatively challenged. I think it was more of that positive outlook. Because again, like I said, a lot of the students there felt the Cross-Cultural Center was only for a specific type of group where we didn't want that. So I think for me, that might've felt in that challenge in that sense, where I felt like, oh, I have this responsibility. I want people to go in there and feel inclusive. I don't want anybody to feel left out or out, or I want them to use the center. You know, just for those open discussions and dialogues and yeah. Stanley: Yeah. So just getting the message out there (laughs). Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: I know during your time at the CCC, there was the Peer Mentoring Program going on-- Ramos: Oh yes! Stanley: Could you tell me about that? Ramos: I love the Peer Mentoring Program! Yes. Oh, I love the Peer Mentoring Program. I think it was so important and I think--I think it was just a great opportunity to mentor those incoming students. I know I was a peer mentor, I had amazing mentees and I loved them so much and I still connect with them. I try to--I haven't in a while, but I still see them, like on social media. I think that's the new norm, right? (laughs) Just seeing them on social media. But no, I think the Peer Mentoring Program was so great, and I think it was just you know, being paired up, paired up with a mentee we were able to kind of help them and guide them throughout their time at San Marcos. So it was a lot of first-year students that we mentored and really just trying to get them involved. I know for all of my mentees, I would ask them like, can you help volunteer with the Civility Campaign? And (Stanley laughs) they all would. So like (laughs), you know, I thought that was such a great opportunity for them because I do feel they were able to meet other students. But even with the Peer Mentoring Program itself, it was just a big family. And I think we all grew so comfortable with each other and just trying to guide them with like, not only their academics, but I think just having those relationships with other people at the school, because a lot of them were either commuting or living away from home. And so San Marcos was our second home. That's where we would spend all of our day at (laughs). And so I think just creating that safety for them and creating the, you know, getting them to know, getting them to feel comfortable enough to get involved at school. 'Cause It can feel lonely, especially if it's your first time and you don't know what you're doing at a university. I know that's how I felt. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I doing here?” Like, “I don't even know what I wanna do with my life.” And so, I think just being really open with our mentees and allowing them to feel vulnerable was so important because they are--it's so important just to kind of keep students hopeful and let them know that they do belong here. Because a lot of the times it can feel like they don't. And I think that was so important a part of the program is just having them feel comfortable and also teaching them study tricks or having them feel--like teaching them time management or how they can schedule their day. And so it could be simple things like that, but I think it was much more than that. I think just having that consistent person in their life is so important because it allows them to feel like they belong. Stanley: You mentioned directing your mentees towards the Civility Campaign. Ramos: Yeah (laughs). Stanley: Were, were there, were there any ways, other ways the mentor program helped? Im--impacted your experiences at the Cross-Cultural Center? Ramos: I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time? Stanley: Were there any other ways that your experiences with the peer mentoring program impacted your experiences with the CCC? Ramos: I mean, they (peer mentors) would hang out at the center. I know that (laughs), I know they would use that space to come in and just hang out. And I think they really created a lot. They also brought in--I think the more comfortable they felt and were engaged and met other students, they would also bring them into the center. So I think that was impactful because they brought in different groups that weren't necessarily always at the center. And so I thought that was really cool to see for them, because they, at first they were really shy and then they started to really blossom (both laugh) and just bring in other students. So, and it was different students who were involved with other, with different organizations on campus. So I thought it was really nice to see that. And kind of make, it also helped the center grow because we were bringing in like our mentees and people from that program to be there at the center and to attend our events. And so I thought that was really important and it really helped the Cross-Cultural Center grow. In that aspect. Stanley: Yeah. Two, two programs working together. That's nice. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: My timeline’s, I don't, I'm not sure if the timeline’s--but was Jenny Ruiz the, the person running it at the time? Ramos: The Civility Campaign? Stanley: No. The Peer Mentoring Program? Ramos: I don't think so. I think it was Floyd. Stanley: Oh, okay. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What is, what's your favorite memory from the CCC? Ramos: Oh, I don't even know. I can't have a favorite memory. I think all of them were, I think all of it. I don't have a specific favorite. I think it's just a, I just--my memory as a whole is the Cross-Cultural Center because it, you know, the Peer Mentoring came out of that, the Civility Campaign came out of that. And so I think it was just all my favorite. Like, I just can't stop smiling because I just, I'm thinking about my time there and I had the best time there. It was my favorite. It was definitely my second home. 'Cause I am, I'm from Chula Vista, which is probably like forty-five minutes, an hour, not even far. So I'm just being a baby (Stanley laughs). But I think it was just really, it was my home. I really loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I still do, but (both laugh) at the time it was, it was so fun. I think I--it was just a really great experience. And when I think about my time at CSUSM, that's what I think about is just my time at the Cross-Cultural Center and the programs that came out of it. Stanley: Lemme ask, did your experiences working at the CCC, did they help you professionally? Or in what ways would they have helped you professionally? Ramos: Yes, definitely. I think I mentioned a little earlier where I remember Floyd would make us run meetings sometimes during our team meetings. And I remember feeling so anxious and being like, “Oh, I don't wanna run a meeting.” But I think it definitely helped me professionally because I-- we're not—at least growing up, you know, I come from a low income community and we're not exposed to that. We're, we don't have those expectations. And so I think the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me kind of get my feet wet (Both laugh). And so, I think even just as simple as running meetings, people are like, “Oh, that's not even that bad.” Like, you know, creating an agenda or running a 30-minute, hour meeting. But to me it was like, “Oh my gosh, I can't do this.” Or you know, I, I had so much anxiety. But I think the more he rotated us to lead those meetings it really exposed us to that kind of professional development. And so I think that really helped me a lot. And I think even just the Civility Campaign, like being in charge of making those events, that was huge for me because I've never done anything like that. It was really, it was challenging, but in a good way. Because it really helped me grow. And I think, you know, even just the computer tech stuff or creating programs, collaborating with other staff members who were part of the student leadership program, I had never done really those type of collaborations. So it really, I think that's where he (Floyd Lai) really planted a seed for me because I think a lot of what I do now helped me, or I guess a lot of what I did then helped me now because now I'm like collaborating with teachers and attorneys and different social workers. And so that collaboration piece was so helpful for me even to today, because I think that was really my steppingstone. And when you do go out into your career, you're exposed to all of that. And I think he (Lai) really helped me grow in that way. Which I'm forever grateful for (laughs). Yeah. Stanley: In a, in a sort of different way. How did the CCC help you academically, in your academic career? Ramos: I definitely think--I think just, you know, Floyd's support as well. I think he really accepted me for like, everything that I was (both laugh) and so--I think just he really, he really took the time to listen to us. And if, if we weren't doing well academically, like I did feel comfortable letting him know, you know, it wasn't the best time for me. I know I had a hard time academically. And I know I had to take a step back away from working at the center because the center, it was my whole life. And so like the Civility (Campaign) kind of took over and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I'm here for, to get a degree. Not to, you know--that was my priority, but I think I forgot that at one point while working at the center. And so I really had to take a step back. And I remember not being employed. I think I took a break, and then I returned after-- Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: --to work back at the Cross-Cultural Center. But Floyd was always so supportive during that time. And I think even the friendships that I had there. That I created when I was at the center helped me academically in so many ways because you know, I didn't, I--a lot of us would never think, especially for my community, we're not really super encouraged to go to higher education. And my family is so supportive, so of course they were. But I think the expectations of us in communities like mine, we’re not expected to go and pursue higher education. And so that transition was so hard for me. And I did struggle academically. I'm horrible at tests, even to this day. I'm not a good test taker (both laugh). I like writing. But no, it was a, it was a struggle. But I think just having those consistent people in my life like Floyd and the friendships that I had at the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me academically. Stanley: You mentioned, well, okay, you just said you were formed a lot of relationships through the CCC. Are there any, any friendships or, or yeah. Any friendships that you still keep in contact with today? Ramos: I do. Yes. I haven't in a while. Like I mentioned my mentees, I, I need to reach out to them. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: But I still have connections with them through social media, but it's just comments here and there. But I, they're still so important in my life. And even my roommates--I lived at oh my gosh, is it the UVA (University Village Apartments), I don't know if they still call it that, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Ramos: They’re the dorms room. I met my roommates there and I also pulled them into the Civility Campaign. So (both laugh), I just--anybody I knew, I was like, “Hey, do you wanna volunteer?” So, my roommates were also part of that. But yes, I definitely still keep in contact with my roommates. I actually just saw one of them a couple weeks ago. So it's awesome because you, not just the peers, but I think Floyd, he's--even if I don't talk to him every month or year, I know he is always there and he always writes my letter of recommendation (both laugh). So, so that's always a great thing. We've, he's kind of like followed my journey, which is really cool to look back on. And, you know, he's always been there for those life-changing career moves or, you know, just anything, I know I can always have him to lean on. And we actually share the same birthday, so we always, “Happy birthday!” on our birthdays, so yes, definitely still have those relationships. Stanley: Well, that's really nice. I like that you keep in touch with people even after all this time (laughs). Ramos: Yeah. Yeah. Stanley: The CCC and looks like the, it sounds like the Civility Campaign was a big part of your time at the CCC. How did these, how did the CCC and the Civility Campaign help you understand, well shape your understanding of social justice and advocacy? Ramos: I think in a lot of ways. It really, even for myself, I know I kept saying, it helped create that dialogue where like a lot of students may have felt like it was, there was a lot of tension. I think it really helped me be okay with having those discussions because that's how we grow and how we support the movement of social justice. And so I think for me at the time--oh, I'm so sorry. I keep blanking out on the names, but I know there, I think it was a social justice retreat that the Cross-Cultural Center had or hosted. And I think that one really moved me deeply because it was the first time I really allowed myself to be vulnerable and like even talk about, my own trauma. And so I think I think it really just helped me wanna advocate more for others because I know like what I've experienced you know, there's others who have stories and who are going through a hard time. And so I think just really trying to gain that lens to try to support others. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And I feel like it's helped me to this day because I'm exposed to that every day where, you know, the institutions and stuff are not always on our side. And so (both laugh) and you know, there's just this whole systematic injustice for our families and I see it every day. And so I think it really helped me to, it led me to where I am today which is what I love, what I'm doing right now (both laugh). But I, it's definitely helped me and, and it really guided me towards this path. Stanley: Would you say that the CCC’s approach to diversity inclusion has changed over time? Or has it, or has it more remained the same over time? What would you say? Ramos: I think it has changed, but for the better. I think having those--I know I follow them on social media (laughs), so I see--I keep referencing social media 'cause it's such a big part of our lives now, but I definitely feel like the workshops that I see, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head, but I know they host those, at the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think that's so we--I don't think it was as structured as it is now. And I think that's so cool to see it grow, because I think during my time at least, we were still in the developing stages of like, “Okay, what do we want the Cross-Cultural Center to be?” And so I think now it's like they have it all laid out. And, I think we were just at that when I was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center, that was still being developed. Like, “What is the program gonna look like? What are we gonna offer students and staff?” And so I think now to look back and kind of scroll past and I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, you know, “They have these programs” like, “Oh, they have shirts.” And I was like, I remember laughing and being like, “Oh my God.” I remember always telling Floyd, “I want uniform shirts at the Cross-Cultural Center” (both laugh) to support the Cross-Cultural Center. And I see that the staff have that now. And I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, just seeing how much it's developed over the years and how much how many, how many students are getting exposed to that. I think is so cool to see. And just to watch the center grow is awesome. Stanley: And I think a good follow up to this would be how do you envision the Cross-Cultural Center continuing to evolve and grow in the future? What role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity specific spaces? Ramos: Ooh. Okay. Can you repeat the, can I take one question at a time? Can you repeat the first one? Stanley: That's fine. Yeah. Yeah (both laugh). How do you envision the CCC continuing to evolve and grow in the future? Ramos: Oh, I think I would love for it to partner up with community agencies or organizations. I think that'd be so cool to see because there is--you know, I know it's very student focused but I think if we can get the students out into the community, and I know they do like the Ceasar Chavez Day there at the center where they go, they have students come out and help out too. But I think if we can connect the center to outside agencies and to support kind of bringing it back to the students' youth. 'Cause I think that's where a lot of the times, you know--in the work that I am in now, trauma really impacts where people are led to. And I think if we can get, if we can do, early prevention work, I think that would be awesome. And what I mean by that is, I think having students be out in the community or helping organizations, it could really help them a lot. Because I think they get to see that change and it's like, “Wow, what I'm doing can really impact youth or, you know, people who may have experienced the same stuff that I have.” But even like fundraising or something for students, and my mind keeps going to foster youth and homelessness because that's where I'm working at right now. The pop--but I think there's a broader population that the students can work with or the center can work with. But I just feel like everybody needs support. And I think--yeah I don't, I really don't know how to wrap this around, but I just, I don't even know what I'm saying, but I think, I don't even know (Stanley laughs). I just lost myself in what I was saying. Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: I just think the, there's so much potential for the Cross-Cultural Center and it has grown already so much. So I think the work that they're doing, if they can invite even the outside, like the public or I don't know anything. 'Cause they, they offer so many cool things and there's so many speakers that come up and when you go to those events and attend them yourself, you're just, you feel so empowered and you're like, “Okay, what's next? What do I do?” And so I feel like, I think that's the aspect that I'm trying to connect with the communities. If we can, because a lot of the times--when I know the Social Justice summit that I went to, I remember feeling so empowered and being like, “What do I do? What can I do? Who can I help?” Like where can I use, where can somebody use me in a good way for the community? And so you're left with like, “Okay, what's next?” And so I think that next step would be like, okay, let's let's get them out there. Let's help them support the community or some agency in some way. I think would be really cool to see, because you do have that adrenaline when you've learned that, you know new terms or social justice stuff, you kind of get excited, but you're like, what do I do with all this energy (both laugh)? So, that would be cool to see. I hope that made sense. I'm just rambling (laughs). Stanley: It did, it did. I really love your enthusiasm about, about the Cross-Cultural Center and that was definitely one of the more unique answers I've gotten to that question. So thank you much. Ramos: Okay (both laugh). Oh my God, that didn't make sense. I'm trying to tie it back together. Stanley: And the, the follow up to that question is what, what role do you see the CCC playing as it coexists with the identity specific spaces? Ramos: Oh do you mean spaces at the, at the ce--like at the Student Union? Stanley: Yeah. Spaces such as the Black Student Center, the Latin /x Center, LGBTQ+ Center. Yes. Ramos: I think, you know, it all comes together. And I think it's--I don't want, I think that's why, you know, earlier when I talked about one of the challenges was people only saw like a certain population coming in. I don't like that at all because I feel we all have experienced some type of challenge with the way we identify with ourselves. And I think having those centers is so important because it creates those safe places for students. But I think they all mesh--they can mesh in some way to like some degree. And I think because, you know, I think--I think it really, I would love to see them all work together. And I think they have in the past. I know we have when I was there. But I don't want people to see it as, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I could only go to the Black student Union if I identify as African American. I think, you know, it is a space for individuals to feel safe at. But I think I would want everyone to feel welcome and inclus--and like included. And I think coexisting with the other spaces is--I mean, it's been happening, it's been going well I think (both laugh). But I think just working more together or , you know, I don't know how it is now. I don't know how the different centers, how they're working together, but I think they can create something so beautiful and create events together where they coexist with each other. And I think that's, yeah, I think I can see that happening. Stanley: So the CCC sort of provides a, a beacon of inclusivity with all these other just sort of like categories (both talking). Ramos: Yeah. Stanley Uh-hmm. Ramos: Yeah. They kind of like intersect in some way, but it is important to identify. It is important to have those centers specific because, I think it allows that safe space for the students, but I think if, I mean, they intersect in some way. Stanley: And this is sort of a, a question I've been asking. Would you, would you be averse to adding maybe an Asian student center or (Ramos laughs) or any other sort of student centers? Ramos: I mean, sure. Yeah. Why not give everyone a center? Yeah. I think it's, I think it's so important because I think there has been a lot of controversy that where people are like, I don't think, I don't agree with, you know, the Latin( /x) Center having a Latin( /x) Center or Black Student Center or LGBTQ. But I think it's important to lay out, the different types of I don't even know the word. I think it's just important to, to realize, we have those centers for a reason. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And it's because of the experiences that those populations have experienced. Not saying like nobody else has. But I think you know, especially just going back to going back to everything that those certain populations have experienced, they do, it is important to have those spaces because of what was experienced with those populations. And I think yeah, I think--I don't think we should take that away (laughs). And I think that there was a lot of controversy of that at first where it's like, “Oh, well you guys are secluding,” you know, as much as you wanna be inclusive. Like, you're also separating that. But it's like, no, that's not the point. You know, we need to have those, we have those spaces for a reason. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Like you mentioned before, just it's a safe space for-- Ramos: Yeah. It's a safe space-- (both talking) Stanley: Or you can go to, you know, you to, to feel, you know, 'cause lot of the times you look around, there's not many people that look like you around campus. Ramos: Yeah. Uh-hmm. I think that's so important. Stanley: All right. Well we're wrapping up here. I'll ask one final question and that would be, what advice would you give to current or future students who are interested in getting involved with the CCC? Ramos: Oh. Just go there. Go, go show up. No, I love the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think the advice that I would give is just don't--be open-minded and just really--yeah, I'm already starting off with horrible advice. I think I would just say, I think I would just say to, for them to be open-minded and know that they belong and know that they have that safe space. Because they deserve to be there as much as anybody else does. And they will find a home there. So I think that's (the) advice: is just be open-minded and know that they belong. That the space is for everyone. And it'll open so many doors for them. So I think that's something that I would say, and I would hope they literally go (laughs) and show up to the center. Yeah, I think just being open-minded and knowing that they belong there as much as anybody else does. Stanley: Well, thank you for that. And thank you for coming Arely. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope I did okay. I feel like redoing the whole interview (both laugh). Oh my God (both talking). I should-- Stanley: I'm gonna stop the recording here. Ramos: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ramos, Arely. Interview April 15, 2023. Description An account of the resource Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Ramos also discusses her career in social work at the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-42 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Child care services Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Education, Higher Human rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arely Ramos Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chula Vista (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Arely Ramos Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dilcie Perez OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Perez, Dilcie. Interview May 30, 2023 SC027-43 01:25:52 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; Education, Higher ; California State University. Multicultural Programs ; California State University San Marcos. Student Affirmative Action ; California State University San Marcos. Student Academic Services Outreach Program ; Mural painting and decoration ; Human rights Dilcie Perez Jennifer Ho Video PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.mp4 1:|14(12)|25(19)|35(6)|51(10)|66(8)|85(4)|98(10)|112(13)|136(9)|154(3)|167(3)|181(15)|195(3)|210(8)|227(5)|246(5)|257(3)|276(8)|297(11)|326(16)|336(17)|354(3)|368(12)|379(6)|397(16)|416(9)|428(16)|441(4)|458(14)|477(6)|489(3)|502(3)|516(13)|530(9)|545(9)|556(5)|568(15)|580(8)|594(7)|608(5)|626(9)|641(8)|657(14)|669(15)|686(7)|700(16)|711(9)|725(14)|740(3)|757(8)|772(4)|786(7)|816(6)|831(15)|843(12)|855(14)|869(5)|882(6)|895(4)|910(9)|924(14)|938(6)|953(13)|971(11)|988(4)|1006(7)|1039(3)|1051(12)|1071(13)|1084(7)|1102(16)|1118(16)|1125(9)|1142(17)|1156(10)|1176(7)|1195(4)|1218(3)|1244(4)|1261(8)|1285(9)|1303(9)|1320(6)|1335(10)|1360(14)|1380(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16aaafbcb8a9a79b2431516903eafa19.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction 0 21 Childhood and Education Perez describes what her life was like as a child from a military family, she traveled to various places and graduated high school in Japan. As an adopted child she describes her family dynamic. Perez then goes on to explain how she collected various credits from community colleges and finished her bachelors at California State University San Marcos and received a Masters at Central Michigan. &#13 ; &#13 ; Adopted ; Bachelors ; Masters ; Military ; Japan ; California State University San Marcos 0 211 Moving to California/ First Impressions of CSUSM Perez moved to California because her husband at the time was to be stationed at Camp Pendleton, California. She then describes that at her CSUSM orientation she realized how advanced the campus was in regards to DEI (Diversity, equity and inclusion) work. Camp Pendleton ; military ; Diversity, equity and inclusion ; California State University San Marcos 0 357 Early Career Experiences Perez worked in Student Affirmative Action (SAA) as a student and was participating in outreach and various programming in schools. After graduating she worked at GEICO in North Carolina and shortly after received a job at CSUSM for a position in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. Student Affirmative Action ; Student Academic Services Outreach Program ; Assistant Outreach Coordinator ; CSUSM ; GEICO 0 537 Experience at CSUSM Perez describes her experience as a non-traditional student since she came in with credits from various community colleges and was married with a full time job. She explains how great the faculty was at CSUSM and how they genuinely cared for their students. Perez created a deep connection with her professors and still considers them as lifetime mentors. She treasures the opportunity to star in a production on campus that expressed the diversity of the lives of seven African women. non-traditional student ; married ; faculty ; CSUSM ; mentor ; Third Word Counselor's Association ; DEI ; Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Wasn’t Enough (Is Enuf) 0 936 Planning the 10th Anniversary Event Perez explains how when she came back to plan the 10th anniversary event for CSUSM the campus was going through an identity crisis. She was trying to make the campus more relatable. CSUSM ; Charger girls ; Jazz ; Mature ; Relatable 0 1170 Cross-Cultural Center Forming Out of a Crisis When Perez was first working at CSUSM there were little to no student-centered spaces. There were political issues on campus and no visible form of DEI being practiced. She quit her position in Student Academic Services Outreach Program (SASOP) due to burnout and in response people in administration provided a new opportunity for Perez, to be the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs in which would mark the beginning of the Cross-Cultural Center. Student Academic Services Outreach Program ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; Associate Director of Multicultural Programs 0 1561 Creating a Vision for the Cross-Cultural Center Perez explains how she hit the ground running when she began building Multicultural Programs. She spent time talking to the community and building relationships by creating various programs and events to provide representation on campus. Perez describes the struggle of getting a space on campus for the department and how people undermined the importance of the program itself. Multicultural Program ; Tukwut ; Powwow ; DEIJ ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Multicultural Programs 0 1859 Building a Foundation for the Cross-Cultural Center Perez describes how she would make space deals with various organizations to grow the Cross-Cultural Center. She expresses how she had to manage creating learning outcomes for the students while bringing in new faculty for the center. She explains how it took some years for the campus to adopt diversity practices. Cross-Cultural Center ; Institute for Social Justice and Equity ; WASC ; diversity 0 2211 How CSUSM Shaped Her Perez expresses not only her childhood but the programs and community at CSUSM shaped her into being the person she is today and prepared her for her career. She changed her viewpoint within DEIJ work and realized identity-based centers are only impactful when student support is the main focus. CSUSM ; Veterans Center ; Student Affirmative Action ; Third Word Counseling Association 0 2668 The Role of Identity-Based Centers Perez explains the importance of intersectionality and how the different centers play a role independently but also in unison as one. She explains how the focus should be on social mobility and supporting students regardless of their identity. Perez discusses how different campuses will have a different approach but there should always be a sense of faculty engagement. intesectionality ; identity-based center ; faculty engagement ; support 0 3128 What Students Needed and Addressing Discriminatory Issues Perez discusses how she spent time communicating with staff and students to understand the needs and necessary representation for the campus. She states that it wasn't until she became dean that she got involved in discriminatory issues on campus and recollects specific issues. She describes issues between student and faculty, and between faculty and faculty in which helped her to gain new viewpoints in regards to DEIJ. DEIJ ; Celebration of Culture ; CSUSM ; Gala GATSA 0 3865 Important People That Built the CCC Perez names a few people that helped make the Cross-Cultural Center and worked on building it up in the early years. Cross-Cultural Center 0 4007 The Third Space/ Current Role Perez explains how her research in the concept of the third space showed her how strengths and characteristics of certain cultures can blend into a single space. She discusses her current role (as Deputy Vice Chancellor, Academic and Student Affairs at the CSU) and who she works closely with in carrying out her daily tasks. The Third Space ; CSUSM ; Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs 0 4265 Mural for the Cross-Cultural Center Perez discusses how the campus supported DEIJ work and there seemed to be no obstacles along the way. She talks about the making of a mural for the Cross-Cultural Center in which provided a visual marker of unity and diversity for the center. mural ; arts ; Cross-Cultural Center ; DEIJ ; Diversity ; Unity 0 4586 Program Funding/Making Campus Traditions Perez explains how Multicultural Programs was created out of a lottery fund and that they often fought for space on campus. She discusses deals she would make with other programs and how she made connections within the community. Perez recollects on how traditions were made and how she was given total freedom to make big moves on campus. Cross-Cultural Center ; Tukwut Life ; Friday Night ; traditions 0 4873 Proud to Be a Part of CCC Perez expresses her deep gratitude and pride to be apart of creating the CCC and how Floyd Lai has expanded DEIJ work on campus. She explains how faculty has continued to add and beautify the CCC. DEIJ ; Proud ; Mad As Hell ; Social Justice Summit 0 Video Dilcie Perez is a California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) alumna. She graduated with her degree in Bachelors of Arts in Political Science. In this interview, Perez explains how CSUSM was ahead of its time in regards to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) work ; however at the beginning of her employment with CSUSM, the university did not have Multicultural Programs (the predecessor to the Cross-Cultural Center). Perez recalls her work with Multicultural Programs, including her being offered the opportunity to open the program upon tendering her resignation to the university. Jennifer Ho: Okay. Today is May 30th, 2023. My name is Jennifer Ho, and I am interviewing Dr. Dilcie Perez for the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Oral History Project. Thank you so much for being with me today, Dr. Perez. How are you? Dilcie Perez: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. Ho: Great. Okay, so I just wanted to start with a little bit about you personally. Can you tell me where you're from? Perez: No (both laugh). So I grew up in a military family, so I had the wonderful opportunity to live in places like Arizona and Maine and California, and Okinawa and traveled around and graduated high school in Okinawa, Japan. And moved to California as--in the nineties, early nineties. And had started , when I graduated high school in Japan, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go to college. And so I kind of took a lot of classes at community colleges. And when I moved to California someone said to me, “Have you ever heard of a place called Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos?” And at that time, I had not. And so they said, “Oh, they have programs at the time for juniors and seniors, and so you should check them out.” And so I applied to go to school at San Marcos and was accepted. And so I can talk about that later, obviously. But I, my, I come from a family of--I have my parents and I have two brothers, and I am the only girl and the youngest. However, I was also adopted, and so found my biological family later in life. And so in that family, I am the oldest of three girls. And so, have a wonderfully blended family. My education, I graduated from Cal State San Marcos in (19)94-ish. And I say that because I had the wonderful opportunity to speak at commencement in (19)94 as the speaker, one of the student speakers. And, and I think my speech might, I don't know if it's in the archives, but there's gotta be some video or something of all the, the different commencements. But moved immediately after that to North Carolina and had two classes to finish. And so I was also pregnant at the time, and so it took me about a year to get those two classes done. So I walked in (19)94, but my, my diploma says (19)95. And came back to San Marcos and then went and got my master's at Central Michigan. So they have--they had a military on-base education. And so they would fly out the instructors from Central Michigan to do an executive master's program. And this is back in the early 2000s. So this was years ago. And then I waited thirteen years to go back and get my doctorate from San Diego State in educational leadership with the emphasis in community college. Ho: Thank you. Can I ask you what brought you out to California in the first place? Perez: Yeah, the military. So I met my ex-husband in Okinawa, and then we moved to North Carolina, and then he received orders to Camp Pendleton. And so we lived in Oceanside actually at that time, and then I went to school. Ho: Okay. Okay. That's great. What were your impressions of--of California, of San Diego, of Oceanside when you, when you arrived for the first time? Perez: Yeah, I don't think that I had anything particularly of California. Because I traveled the world. And so it was another place. I remember living in--off of Mission Avenue and just appreciating being close to the beach and the weather. And but I will tell you this, that I came, so when this was (19)91-ish. And when someone referenced, like to go to Cal State San Marcos, and I say this, I tell the story all the time: that when I applied to Cal State San Marcos, got accepted, I went to orientation. And orientation at that time in 1992 was at Cal State Jerome's. So you've probably heard the stories across the street. Ho: Yep. Perez: And I can see it. One, I will tell you, I still have my 1992 orientation binder that I received when I came. Still. So I've traveled and moved. But I recently was, you know, consolidating. I was like, “No, I'm keeping this, like this is good, important stuff in 1992.” And I will tell you that what is pivotal for me of having been in a military family traveling the world, that I remember walking out of orientation feeling like it was a place that I belonged because of the message of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, you know, in (19)92, we didn't always use those words. Ho: Right. Perez: But, but diversity was a value for the campus from the start. And I remember people, someone at orientation saying, “We don't want to be a melting pot. That's old, outdated language.” And this was in (19)92, right? “Because a melting pot blends everyone together, and you can't tell the difference. We wanna be a salad bowl and we want everyone to have a unique.” And so that resonated with me that I felt like I found a place, even at my orientation in 1992 at Cal State San Marcos. Ho: Wow, that's, that's amazing. That's really great to hear. So is that--just to fast forward a little bit, is that what brought you back to CSUSM? Perez: That's interesting. So literally when I worked in as a student, I worked in what was at the time Student Affirmative Action. So they called it SAA. Someone by the name of Denise Hollis became a mentor. I think Eric Cardoso or folks in Student Affirmative Action (Program). And this was obviously before Prop 209. That then started to abolish offices such as that, right? And so when I worked in those areas and SASOP (Student Academic Services Outreach Program) and stuff, I was a student going out and doing motivational outreach. So we would do programs in schools, and I was going out doing that, and I had such a powerful experience as a student. And I moved to North Carolina right after I graduated for a year and a half, two years. And when I came back, I was at a party, like a barbecue, I can't remember. And someone said to me, “Hey, you know I got a new job.” It was somebody that I worked for. She said, “I got a new job.” And I was like, “Ah, I want your job.” Like, “I want your job.” And she just started laughing. She was like, “Ha.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. I really want your job.” Like, “What do I need to do?” And her assignment was temporary. And so this was--so really why I came back to work was because there was a temporary opportunity. It was an Assistant Outreach Coordinator in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. And so I started back at the campus that I love so much, and really in official capacity doing what I had done as a student. Ho: That's wonderful. And was that after you got your, your doctorate from SDSU? Perez: No. So this is all in 1998, (19)90. So I graduated in (19)95. I was in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And then I came back, I think in (19)97 and worked for GEICO, did temp work. I was like, “What's my life's purpose? Where am I headed? What am I doing?” And then I met her at this party or saw her again at this party. And then the rest is history about (CSU) San Marcos, because I left, there's a lot to the story. But I left, but stayed for a long time and really had a great professional experience. Ho: That's wonderful. Do you remember the name of the person from the party? Perez: Oh, Mary Wardell. Um-hmm. Ho: Mary Wardell. Perez: Yeah. She was, she worked in Student Affirmative Action, and she moved and went to the Dean of Students' Office, was an Assistant Dean of Students. And that's when I saw her. 'Cause she had just received that pro-- promotion. Now she works at--she moved to, I think, University of the Pacific, but she does DEI work, she’s done written books and done amazing things in this area. Yeah. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: So now backtracking again. I wanna hear about your time as a student, because obviously it had a profound impact on you. So, so did it meet--did being a student meet your expectations after that orientation? And can you tell me about some experiences on campus and the people that you met and some pivotal moments? Perez: Oh, I love it! So I will tell you that I (laughs)--I, I had a fun experience at (California State) San Marcos, but I wasn't your traditional student. Like, I didn't know what a Dean of Students was. I didn't know about higher education. I knew that I had gone, I didn't learn this until later. I'd gone to like six different community colleges picking up classes. I spent time at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, picking up classes. So I was going to school constantly, but picking up classes as we traveled. And so when I got to, you know, (CSU) San Marcos, it--you have to remember the culture was so different because it was so small and the faculty and the students were so tight. And when I arrived, there were no first year students. It was only juniors and seniors. And we only had three buildings. So Science Hall, Academic Hall, and maybe well, Administration Building, Craven, which is not Craven anymore. So it was those three buildings. And I will say to you that I was married, right? And so I was working during the day, I was going to school, and I took classes. I will tell you, that's really profound. And to this point, I'm still connected to these faculty members today. Leslie Zomalt. So, you know, the (Ernest and Leslie) Zomalt Award they're very, I'm very close to them. She was my faculty member in California History and we're still close. And she gave me a B! Like a B, a B. So I was like, “Why do I like you so much? You gave me a B.” But she was so good because she would, what I loved about her--I was going through a personal, difficult personal situation during that time, and I must have missed class or something must have happened that, she called me and she said, “I realize that you're not around. I wanna check on you and see how you're doing.” And that was pivotal to me. I remember that she went to a conference and she loves to read. She still loves to--I, I'm going to her house for quilting. She got me connected to quilting. I hate quilting. I hate it. I hate it. But I love you know, I, when I came back one time, I said to her, “Will you make me a quilt?” Is what I said to her. Literally this bold. And she said, “I will not make you a quilt. I will teach you how to quilt.” And I was like, “Ah, okay.” So, but every year, for about ten to fifteen years, we have quilted at her house for a year, for at one time a year. Now, I don't quilt any other time. I still hate quilting. But I love the sense of community and the mentorship and the love that goes into it, that I literally will quilt one thing within my range once a year when I go. And so I will say to you that what I think about at San Mar--and Jill Watts. So let me tell you, Jill Watts is still there. She is a historian beyond historians. And, and I talked about her in, in my commencement speech that the best African American History class I have ever taken is by a white woman. Hands down. She is brilliant. She is, you know, phenomenal. It's funny, even when I worked at (California State) San Marcos, I wouldn't see her as much, but she would just beam every time that she saw me because she knew who I was as a student. I remember that Peter Zwick, I don't know if you've heard that name. He used to be over (at) Global Affairs at the time, but was really a hard, hard political science instructor. Like people were scared of him. Hard. And I decided, 'cause I was lost, I was gonna do Poli Sci as a major. And he, I went to him, who's my faculty advisor too. He must've been. And I sat there and I said, “I'm graduating in May.” And he was like, “Dilcie, how are you graduating when you haven't hardly taken any political science classes?” I was like, “It’s a technicality. Technicality.” So I took twenty-one units, most of those political science classes, upper division in one semester. Ho: Wow! Perez: I thought I was going to die. And I think a few of them, 'cause he was a hard one, like one or two were with him. But I will tell you this, is that one, it was hard 'cause I was working and taking twenty-one units and picking up. But I will tell you that that was the best I did. That was the only semester I've ever made Dean's list (laughs) in my college career, because I knew I didn't have a lot of room to play. But I will say to you that as I think about (Cal State) San Marcos, it was pivotal to me because of the relationships, particularly with faculty that I established. Denise Hollis was administration, but we were, we used to go to a Third Word Counselor's Association. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it was years ago, and it was doing DEI work, and they were taking us there to those events. But even during the time, so I didn't get involved in a lot of co-curricular events. I have a colleague now, that used to work at Chancellor's Office and I just had an event for her. And I was like, we went to college together at (CSU) San Marcos. She's very--Sabrina Sanders. We went to college. And I was like, I don't completely remember her, but we went to college together. Right. Because she remembers me. And I just wasn't involved in a co-curricular way. So I would tell you my co-curricular experience really was the relationships with them. But we did a play. So this is in the archives as well, but for Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Wasn’t Enough (Is Enuf). Ho: Okay. Perez: We, we all practiced for months. I--months on weekends and nights and did this two-weekend play or maybe one weekend. And it was in like the school newspaper. Gezai (Berhane) showed it to me later, that we all did this play. It was sold out in ACD 102 sold out. It was just wonderful. That--those are the pivotal moments for me. My orientation, my relationship with faculty, my--spending time in that (production). That's what I think when I think about my (CSU) San Marcos experience that I treasure the most. Ho: That's lovely. Thank you. And what did you say the title of that play was? Perez: For Color Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow (Is) Enuf. So it's about seven African American women and the diversity of their life. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah, it has some pretty heavy topics in it, quite honestly. And so that's what made it so impressive quite honestly. Yeah. Ho: And can you speak a bit about--about the culture on campus for you as a student? Whatever comes to mind, but in particular I'm interested in, in culture and community and, and DEI and, and different groups of students. Perez: So, that's an interesting, I am grateful for this question. I don't think that I was mindful enough to know at the time with words and language what I was experiencing. I think I felt like I mattered. That I was making relationships and making connections. And I, and I hate to--I don't always like the cliche of mattering and belonging because I think people have to unpack that and think about what that means. But I will tell you, I felt like I belonged at (CSU) San Marcos from day one. From day one. And so--but I also didn't have a lot of needs, right? So at that point in time for the two years that I was there, two or three I think it served the need that I had as a non-traditional student. When I came back in (19)97, the campus had changed because the first-year students came in (19)95. So it was not the same. We--I could tell we were going through an identity crisis, right? We were planning the 10th anniversary event when I returned, and I brought the (laughs) Charger girls. I was gonna bring them to the event. And I don't know if you know, but back in the day and you have to be careful about this, this part, but back in the day we had a librarian who was heavily involved in the campus and (laughs). Ho: Okay Perez: And there was a lot of music, it (was) like jazz, right? That works for an older population. And so it was wonderful for the campus when there was juniors and seniors and older people, but first-year students and sophomores (laughs), I don’t--jazz isn’t it all--like, we have to be more than that. And so I really was proud of myself, quite honestly. And I was like, I got the Charger girls! They're coming into this event. They literally took me to, we--I don't know if you've heard of Surge? So Surge used to be the coffee shop. Ho: Okay. Perez: That was on the corner, kind of down by--by Block C by, you know where the quad is? It was on the corner there. There's a real estate office there now. They took me down to the Surge for coffee and they said, “We don't want T&amp ; A at our event.” Like, and I said, “What? Like, the Charger girls are like, like professionals (laughs)! Like they, they're not, they're not T&amp ; A, what’re you talking about?” But they would not let me bring the Charger girls to that event. I had to cancel them. Ho: Oh my goodness. Wow. Perez: And I think that the campus was in that transition from this kind of older and more mature thing to saying we have to be more relate--like, I was trying to push us to be more relatable and it did not work that day at all (laughs). Ho: Wow, what a conversation that must have been. Perez: Oh, it was fun. But you know, I've always, I've always liked to get into good trouble, right? Ho: Yeah. Perez: And so for me it was then how are we meeting the needs of students? Because what we, what we did for, it was supposed to be like 10th anniversary in a preview day, and it really was just, you know, the same old thing that we had been doing all of that, that time period. So-- Ho: Okay. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Did--are you saying the event turned out to be kind of the same old, same old? Perez: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: 10th anniversary jazz ensemble (laughs). Yeah. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: And people showed up, but it wasn't what you really would think of, of a traditional college experience. So we went through transitional times such as that. Ho: Okay. Well that's a good segue into the Cross-Cultural Center then. So when you were a student at that time, there was not a Cross-Cultural Center, is that correct? Perez: That's correct. Ho: Okay. So when you came back to CSUSM in a staff role what are your first memories of rumblings of a Cross-Cultural Center, of a Multicultural Center? Do you remember? Perez: None. None. So let me put the context around, and this is where it--it's a, it's an interesting story. So if I go back to (19)98, (19)97, I worked in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. So SASOP doing early outreach, motivation, academic preparation. And I would say that that team and the people were diverse. We had the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops) as a space, which was really, if I remember correctly, only the primary kind of student-centered space. There wasn't a lot, you had lunch there, right? And you ate there, everything happened in the Dome. I would say to you, we were going through as a division, a lot of work around our values and trying to clarify and integrate our values in our, in for the team. And I would say to you what was hard, I'm trying to remember. I remember that there were WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) self-study and that it came back with some campus climate challenges. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: And I remember, and all my years kind of blur, right? So, but I have a time period of when, like pre--I have to explain it. But when I was in SASOP, I was heavily involved in a lot of different things. In outreach. And I remember, I think during that time, there was a noose hanging on the tree outside of Academic Hall. Not, excuse me, I'm lying to you. Outside of the Administration Building. So that fifth, fifth floor, you have Founders' Plaza, there was that--there's a tree there. Ho: Yeah. Perez: That tree had a noose. And so that caused a lot of energy. So the part that's interesting is that I was heavily involved in the community. I was working tremendously. And I think I had kind of burnt out, honestly, in outreach. So I was there five and a half, six years, and I had been thinking about, I need to change. I need to do something differently. And so I was driving to work one day, and I had talked to my ex-husband. I was like, “I think I'm, I'm done. Like, I'm tired, like I'm exhausted.” And he, he said, “(I) support you, do what you need to do.” And I had written a letter and I had it for like months and I hadn't done anything with it. And then one day I was driving to work and I can tell you exactly where I was when I was driving to work. And I said, “I'm done.” And so I came in to the office and I gave them my notice. And one thing that I will tell you is that when someone quits a job and gets another job, most people will say, “Oh, Jennifer got another job. She's moving on to better things.” Well, you get a lot of attention when you say, “I'm leaving.” And they're like, “Where are you going?” And I'm like, “Nowhere. I'm just done here.” And so folks in administration came to me and they said, “Hey, you know, we don't want you to leave. What's going on?” And one of the administrators said, “If we create an opportunity for you, will you stay?” And I was like, “Eh, I don't, I don't think so. No, no, no. I--I'm pretty tired.” And the campus threw a big going away party for me, huge. But what they had said to me is, “Leave, go ahead. Take two weeks. Don't, we're not gonna submit everything. You go think about this opportunity and let us know.” And I will tell you that it was until that last day, I think they had given me till 1:00 PM and they said, and I called at twelve fifty-five because I wasn't going to do it. I was tired. And the opportunity that they had was the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so that was the first start to the Cross-Cultural Center. So that is how, honestly, it really--and so I'll tell you that what I know now, after I got into that position was we were doing 2010 visioning at that time. And I, this was, you're talking 2002 when I, when I shifted. Two thousand two/three. And they had already, I would say Jonathan Pollard, you've probably heard that name, and Bridget Blanshan. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: They had done some visioning, 2010 visioning. And, and I don't know, I could, I don't, I can't dig probably for you, but they have it-- Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: This document. And in it, they had said they wanted to open Multicultural Programs and hire and do a space. So what happened, I believe, is that there was me saying, “I'm outta (laughs). I'm gone.” The campus not wanting to necessarily just let me walk away. And knowing they had an opportunity for strength and growth under Bridget is when I accepted and changed and came and opened Multicultural Programs. Ho: Wow. It's a good thing you put in that notice. Perez: Oh, who you telling (Ho laughs)? 'Cause the campus one, I'll tell you this. And if I'm being quite honest, and I, if I had tried to apply for that type of role--as an outsider to a place, I don't, I would've not received that role. I didn't have the pedigree. I didn't have, you know, sure I had some of the education, but what people used to say at the time is that you're not a traditional Student Affairs practitioner. And I actually resent that type of statement because I don't think there's a traditional student affairs person anymore. Like that's old thinking. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: But I would say to you that I think I wouldn't have, I, what, what I believe was happening is I had established strong relationships. People knew my quality of work, knew that I would come in and at least set the ground running. That, that that's what I did. And so, honestly, when I came in, started the position, and literally I was in a cubicle inside on the fourth floor of Craven (Hall) and really had to set the, the vision. And so I met with nineteen, twenty people and I said, “What are our needs on campus? What do we think we should be doing? What do you want Multicultural Programs to be?” And I created oh my gosh, so many programs that first year. Like I was a party of one and a student assistant. But we started, I remember, oh, I can't remember. There's, there has to be somewhere. I did a flag, it had international flags everywhere. And we did a culture of celebration, or celebration of culture. Celebration of Culture was the first event. And then in that time, we started with--I partnered with Jonathan (Pollard) to start the African American Faculty Staff Association. We did the fires. We had the (brush) fires. And so we, because part of my job was volunteerism too. They threw volunteerism and engagement in there. So I did a fire, a drive, a, a clothing drive for the for out of the center for the victims of the fire. I did Soul Food Lunch, helped start Soul Food Lunch, which is gone now, but Soul Food Lunch, I think we did over 20 programs that first year that I was there. But it was all because of what people told me they wanted and what we needed. Oh, Powwow! I did the planning of the (Tukwut) Powwow with everyone. I, oh man. I could try and go back. Like we just, it, it really, I was, it was a way in which I could engage the community and build relationships across the campus. And so that is the foundation for how I really began to, I think cement my knowledge base in DEIJ (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice). Was really kind of this piecemealing and building. And so the piece that I will tell you is I, between Bridget (Blanshan) and I, I can't--we advocated for the space next door to Student Life and Leadership. And it's a square wall. It was it--that room? Hon--it is so small. Do you hear me? It is so small. But, we put a couch. I went and got a couch from (unclear) who, I don't know if you know her, she works. I went to her house and picked up a couch. We got--we built me a cubicle in there because I thought it was important to have a separation of space between any students. We did all this stuff. Oh my gosh. We were in there and they tried to come and take that space. I remember one of our academic colleagues, literally, I was sitting in the space and I turned around and she's standing there summing up the space for sure. And didn't say a word to me, and then turned around and walked out. And I remember going to Bridget and saying, “You've got to be kidding me. Right?” Like, you can't come while someone's sitting in the space trying to sum it up for, 'cause space wars were real. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: And I think at that time, people didn't realize the power of a Cross-Cultural Center. And there was intentionality and, you know, we called it Multicultural Programs. And then I opened up the Cross-Cultural Center, and literally, as I see how you've written it, we had, do you put the dash in between Cross-Cultural Center and do we not? And later on there was the, the version of, is it C3, which we branded and branded well. And then, then people hated that brand, and then they had to move, which is fine, right? But I often, I laugh because I can't believe that the Cross-Cultural name has still stayed. And, and I'm exceptionally proud. This part, we may not wanna put too public, but that's the one center that has had no controversy (laughs) on the campus. Ho: Really (both talking)? Perez: Right? Yeah. Ho: So there was no pushback or anything when you started? Perez: Nah, Nah, none. No. Um-um. And they could have. But I think because the campus was small, I had great relationships. The way in which I did--did it in relationship. It was a community effort. People were engaged, people were support(ive). None. None. But I will say to you too that the way in which we approached DEI work was pretty soft at that time. You know, it was a very supportive nature. I wasn't tackling policy. I wasn't, you know, tackling searches and recruitments, and I was building community and that level of awareness around what we can do collectively. I think I wrote a mission in the beginning. But here's the thing: I will tell you that I was, in my humble opinion, the grassroots person, because I got it going. And gave, gave. And then I was there 18 months maybe, and then I moved to Japan. And when I came back, Alexis Motevirgin had taken it to a more formal place. And, and I was like, I think we had a mission statement back then? But Alexis, I think really formalized the mission and the work. I just, I just was the grassroots starter for all of that at the time. And then Alexis came, stayed just a few months, right? And then I, I think that I hired Augie (Augustin Garibay) and he didn't stay very long. Augie Garibay and then hired Sara, Sara Sheikh. And then she stayed for a little bit and moved on. And then Floyd (Lai), and he's the longest standing. Really, I think built a solid foundation. I was there. So this is where it gets weird. Because I was, I would say the associate director, or the first, however we wanna frame it for Cross-Cultural Center. But I was there from 2003-ish to (200)4 into (200)4, so probably eighteen months. And then I went to Japan, and I was gone a year and a half, and then I came back. So part of my work in the evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center, was when I was the Director of Student Life, and it was in my portfolio. So had the ability--so I was making--I hate, I feel awkward because it's almost like you're bragging. And so I'm trying not to brag. But we used to make lots of deals back then. So I would hustle to make deals for space, quite honestly. And so--we moved Student Life. So this was part of the plan. We moved Student Life to third floor, right? And that in the rotunda, I don't know what's the, it's Guardian Scholars, I think there're now, but it has a weird kind of diagonal room. Ho: Um-huh. Perez: So we went from the fourth floor down to the rotunda, and it was small in an awkward space, small. So we were there not too long. And then I worked a deal to switch. We put Leadership Programs down, I believe, or student org(anization)s down in the rotunda and in Commons 206 area, right across where I think Alumni Affairs is. We got a really good space and partnered with ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), they gave us that space to put the Cross-Cultural Center up there. And that's when the Cross-Cultural Center got its real visibility because it was in a prominent space, gorgeous space. Great. We had couches. Alexis, you might hear in stories about these beautiful red couches. So by the time I came back from Japan, these beautiful red couches were in the space. Those couches have lasted for a long time. People used those couches. I, when I got back, I actually--I tell people at the Chancellor's Office, bought a TV for the space. I wanted to buy a TV to do announcements on this, on the thing. And this isn't, you're talking about 2000. Whatever. And Bridget was so cute. She was like, “What are your student learning outcomes for them?” And I was like, “What?” So, you know, I had to, you know, write whatever. And then some things happened with staffing, and someone filed a whistleblower on me for buying the TV. Because I bought the TV. Uh-huh. And so I had to defend at the--for the Chancellor's office why I bought this TV for this Cross-Cultural Center back in the day. So it's interesting that what we consider is normal, were some things that as you build the infrastructure, right? And, you know, when you build something like this, people want it to be all things to all people. And I think that when I started, that was easy because it was just building. But as you've seen the iteration, I think each of the people who have led it have really had to think about what is the purpose of the center and the space, and how can it be most effective? Ho: So then when you were, when you were building, what was the purpose of it in your mind? Perez: Yeah. I think one, to provide space, a safe space for our students. To be a centralized resource and location. So I would say to you that in some ways I was, you know, the start of a diversity person on the campus in that realm. It was kind of a catchall at that time. I think that it, it--whether articulated or not, was to build really kind of the celebratory awareness events. And have the visibility and do that work to acknowledge the diversity of our communities on the campuses. And I--I'm having a hard time kind of remembering between the two roles, but I began to get brought into, we had an Institute for Social Justice and Equity that was created, a center. And that when I got back, we were heavily involved in. A lot of the bias response pieces because of student life I was involved in. And so I think it became a resource. And when I got back from the CSU--when I got back from Japan, I will tell you that it was then that I--we got really involved in more serious things. So some of the campus climate pieces, the WASC pieces, there was a, maybe diversity committee that was working on a diversity statement for the campus that I think we worked on that for a long time and it never got out. But what did get out of that, or come out of that work on that committee was the very first Diversity Officer. And so that was Gary Rollinson, who then I think in that. Dowd, spent some time in that. And then, you know, (Willie) “Derrick” Crawford, and then now, you know, there's Arturo Ocampo and then Aswad (Allen, current Chief Diversity Officer). So I think it was the foundational really for a lot of the diversity work that was happening on the campus. Ho: So you mentioned when we first started this conversation, you were really a part of a lot of different communities as a kid. So military, you were adopted, which I imagine had a profound impact on your sense of identity and being. And then moving from place to place and having to integrate yourself into these different places. So do you think that that this childhood experience of--of being maybe different in so many ways from so many different people, had any impact on, on this career that you found yourself in at CSUSM? Perez: Oh, I love this question. I don't know. When I was doing my doctoral work there was a pivotal, a quote that has been pivotal to my life. It says, “Everything changes, everything's connected, pay attention.” And I would say to you that while I was trying to figure out what the purpose of my life was going to be, (laughs) working at GEICO, coming to work in outreach, right? Susan Mitchell, who has since passed away, was a great mentor in telling me I was a leader without the position. Like in instilling this belief in me, I would say to you that every experience I had at (CSU) San Marcos prepared me for that role. That my work in outreach and Student Affirmative Action to the Third Word Counseling Association that I talked to you about, to the outreach to the people that I worked with and the value statements to the engagement that I had as a student. Yeah. I mean, all of that. I think you pull from those as tools, right? What I do think helped is I love the community. And I think to your point I don't think even then I understood as a student what it meant to be an African American woman. I don't know that I understood how all of my identities felt, but I did know what it meant to feel like you mattered and belonged, and how to resource and the support on the campus. That even though I'm not first gen(eration), both of my parents went to college, I know I struggled at points. Like, it wasn't until I applied to go to grad school that I realized I pulled my (CSU) San Marcos transcript, and I was like, “Really? I wasn't that bad of a student. Why did I feel like I wasn't a good student?” Like, I literally did not see myself as a good student, right? I was just doing what I needed to do to possibly get out. You know, my GPA ended up like a 3.11, but all the stuff I was doing and the movement and the, you know--but I, I would say to you that I think that sure, I pull on all of that because you want students to have a good experience. And what has happened since then with my research around a concept called Third Space, I do believe it's our role to break down any obstacles and challenges that students have to face. And I think that's the way in which I've approached the work is that sometimes it's, it's our organizational structures that are weeding students out. And that to me is probably the greatest social inequity of all. Ho: Especially on a college campus of all things. Perez: Especially on a college campus. That's supposed to, while we reflect society, we should often we should be a safe space. Ho: Hmm. Perez: I will tell you that during my time, so you're talking when I was director of SLL (Student Life and Leadership), then the Associate Dean, then Dean of Students, right? So all these are kind of merged, but once the Cross-Cultural Center opened, I had the opportunity to partner with John Segoria and Vicki Hernandez to open the Veterans Center. Then the president pulled on a team of us after a list of demands. And I just, I had the opportunity a few years ago to participate in the Latino Resource Center and helping them get started. And that came out of crisis. And so we created that. That I--I was gonna tell you some piece about that, but oh, that Floyd had invited me back, I think, for the 15th year. Or whatever. And when we were opening the Latino Resource Center, some folks thought that as we were having that, I would, I would raise questions. And I said, “If we, if we open a Latino Resource Center (Latin /X Center), are we ready to open a center for all identities?” Because that's what's gonna happen. And I'm, and, and people thought I was against it, and I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no.” Because if you look, we had started the Cross-Cultural Center because we understood that the intersectionality of all of our identities. And so we were trying to build the model originally off of the value of the intersectionality. Right? And then as life happens in society and on the campus, there was a need. And so the Latino Resource Center, I was like, I'm not against it. I'm just asking are we ready to open additional centers? And to the president's credit, she was , because then the Black Resource Center (Black Student Center) came, the Dreamer Center came, right? And additional centers. And so I will tell you that when he invited me to come back for the 15th year and speak, I wrote a speech that I had to think about because I was like, where am I at? Is it Cross-Cultural Center or is it all the different identity-based centers? And I will tell you, I was at MiraCosta (Community College) at the time, and I wrote in the speech, I said, until we make DEIJ training mandatory across the institution, because the reality is those that choose to come to the trainings do, but those aren't the folks who are making it a chilly spot. Not always discriminatory, but chilly, and making it difficult for students until they are mandated to go to training and they get to opt out. Oh, we best believe we need centers. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: To get rid of all of the isms, to get rid of all the things that are hindering our students. You absolutely need a safe space. And so I am for whatever identity-based center we feel like we need that can validate students, provide the academic and co-curricular support to students all day, every day. So I put that in the speech, right? That at, at the 15th (year) and tell me that the students at MiraCosta got a hold of that speech somehow, and they were trying to fight for a Latino center. And they quoted that speech and plastered it all over campus, because they also feel like if she's saying that we need that there, why wouldn't we need that here? And so, I will tell you, I've shifted my approach, actually. I think cross-cultural is important, but I, I think identity-based centers as we need them, are critically important until we're going to focus on the entire organization and hold everyone accountable to creating student support. You know, it's not, I--I really, quite honestly, you have a choice to believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to, to force people to believe. But what you can't do, or what you won't do is weed a student out because of your beliefs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Or cause an obstacle for a student. That, that we, we need to understand that there are societal injustices, that mirror themselves in our college campuses that we need to mitigate if we're really truly serious about doing this work. Ho: Could you elaborate a bit on--on why identity focused centers are so important and also their relationship to a, a Multicultural Center? Like what, what is, what is the difference, frankly? Perez: Well, I don't know. And I, and I would tell you, I think Floyd's been working on that, right? Because what you probably know is that we had so many discussions in the beginning because the students, it was always busy in the Cross-Cultural Center. But it was our APIDA (Asian-Pacific Islander Desi American) students that were in there and using the space. And so people were like, “Well, you have to have an APIDA center 'cause that's who's in there.” And we had so many conversations in the beginning around how do you diversify the space. Because it's not just about our APIDA students. The reality is it is any student taking territory. Claiming territory. Like what do you do to make sure the space is, you know, culturally diverse? And at some point, we just gave up quite honestly, because we didn't feel like that was our right to then try and mess with the dynamics. Like create a space where people, if they choose to walk in the door, that they would feel welcome. Does that make sense? But we will not exclude anyone from the spaces like the space. That's what it is here for. And so, I will tell you that I think that I don't know, and I haven't been connected in a very long time, in an in-depth way, if we have ever clearly achieved the, the goal of the intersectionality and how a Cross-Cultural center or could really, really benefit that. I think you would, quite honestly, there's nuances between multicultural and cross-cultural, right? And I think you will play, people don't call, and they may now. Multicultural. And so Multicultural Programs died that, that term. I think I-- and Floyd had it in his title for a while, but I can't remember where that ended up. But I would say to you that I think as we think about the future, that really is the essence. That the identity-based senders, I don't, you can't silo my identity, right? So I am an African-American woman. Does that make sense? I am a military dependent family member. That is a huge, huge part of my identity. I am a woman. Gender Equity Center. I am an ally to LGBTQ. Like, so to think that a student, we can silo the identities of students? But what I will tell you is this, I find community in ways that are authentic to me. So what I love about the identity based, and it's a different idea, is I get to choose which identity I'm (unclear) in those moments. I don't have to pick them, because I do think sometimes in our work, we're back to the melting pot concept, where we're like, “Let's just be all happy and get along.” And we really don't create that space for the uniqueness of our identities to come forward. So what I love about where (CSU) San Marcos is now is honestly, yeah. They were willing to open centers for like, when I was there. There's two other centers popping up, right? You know, what I, what I think is interesting is you have the National Latino Resource Center. And you have the Latino Resource Center (Latin /X Center), and you have the Dreamers Center. And my question is, how are all of them partnering and working together? And are we creating living learning spaces? Because I will tell you, I don't think you need separate spaces just for belonging. What we need are spaces that allow a student to live and to learn. And often the connection to academic, their academics is critically important. Does that make sense? Like, I will tell you, I do a lot of work around basic needs. This is not a popular statement that I'm about to make, but everything we do for students' basic needs should be connected to them moving forward to achieve their educational goals. Period. If we're not helping a student progress forward or persist, the reality (is) we're not a social service agency. That is not our area of expertise. What we are is, as I see Jennifer as a student, Jennifer has needs, some of them are more immediate, some are more long-term. So, Jennifer, how can I help connect you for your immediate, basic needs, to a community organization? Cal-fresh. Housing. That can help you so that I'm not, I'm, I'm helping you to fish. Not just trying to fix this need right now. Because oftentimes people will say, “Well, Jennifer can't go to school because she has so many life things.” And I'm like, yeah, but the reality is we have to balance, how do we supply the needs? So Jennifer, 'cause that's, that's social mobility for a student. That's what's gonna change a life. That's what, that's what we want. We wanna change our life through helping Jennifer get their degree. Ho: Yeah. Perez: Am I preaching to you? But that's what, to me, the crux of what we're doing is, I think every campus is gonna be different, quite honestly. And I think (CSU) San Marcos has found its niche, right? I think when it moved all the identity-based centers into a unit. So that they can collaborate, coordinate, partner. I think it's fabulous. Ho: So do you see do you see a trend with college campuses overall moving from multicultural centers to, to these focused, identity-based? Perez: So I've changed and morphed a little bit too. And I will tell you that it's funny. My, my vision is similar, but different. And I think that's from being at (CSU) San Marcos, but also having the identity-based spaces conversation at MiraCosta Community College, and then Cerritos College, and then now in the system. I would tell you my ideal, which is not new to me. Does that make sense? It's just the model, model that I love, is where you have this cross-- and this kind of was where we had started, but it never got there. Cross-Cultural is the hub, right? But then you would have physical spaces because symbolism matters to identities. But you would have some spaces connected. So you could have your LGBTQIA, you could have Gender Equity, you could have, you know, I'm trying to—Black--you know, all the different centers that aren't necessarily disconnected. The hub is the cross-cultural part. So (California State University) Fullerton, to my understanding, has this model where they have a coordinator for each, but they're all interconnected in their work and in the way they do this. That to me is the ideal quite honestly. I don't think having separate spaces across campuses, across whatever are the ideal. I think having them where there could be a synergy together. I think (CSU) San Marcos is close, right? Because most of them are in the (University Student) Union. They've done a really good job of trying to put everything in the Union. Some are a few out, you know, I used to serve on the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center’s taskforce. And then, you know, I just learned they're working to do a Native Center. And I was like, but you have two, like two spaces, like two, like what's the difference? So, you know, I don't know where it starts or stops. I just think that each campus has to have its hand on the pulse of what their students need. And I think engaging faculty in these spaces matters. You know, that is one of the most critical relationships. Is I've talked about my experiences. You know, it could be a staff member. Absolutely. But your faculty relationships matter. Ho: Yeah. When you were, when you were starting out as this, as the Associate--Associate Director-- (Both talking) Perez: Director-- Ho: --of Multicultural Spaces, is that correct? Perez: Multicultural Programs. (Both talking) Ho: Multicultural Programs. Perez: Um-huh. Ho: Okay. Thank you. You said you spoke to different people on campus. Did that include students and faculty as well? Perez: Yeah. You know, it--my world was so blended. So the, the, the thing that's a little different at (CSU) San Marcos--so when I left San Marcos in 2016, I would tell you and I give all credit, Lorena, Mesa, and Checka at the time, they threw a phenomenal party. I would tell you mostly faculty were there, right? So the way in which I navigated the campus was really fluid between Student Affairs and Academic Affairs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Yes. I mean, I would tell you, like, can I remember? I--I think I met with Gary Rollinson. I think I remember meeting with advisors. I think students, I don't have the list, obviously. It was 19 years ago. Which is crazy. But yeah, I mean, I think we, we just were more fluid between the organization back then that, yeah, I remember meeting with as many people that would meet with me. Ho: That's great. And did that include students as well? Perez: Yes. But I can't tell you the exact names of the students. Yes. Ho: Oh, that's okay. That's fine. One of my questions on my list here is what did the students say that they wanted? Perez: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's hard for me is what a student would say today and what a student would say in 2004 are very different things. So I think we're, we are more knowledgeable about DEIJ language. And about--I hate to say it this way, but the hatred, the discrimination, the oppression that's in the world. And I think that at the point when we started our work around DEI was still kind of in the--I I hate to say it, in the happy phase. So you know how I said the Latino Center--resource center was built out of crisis, right? And the Black Resource Center, I think a crisis. Veterans Center, not so much. I think it was us being strategic and the community. But the Cross-Cultural Center wasn't built out of a crisis. It was built out of an opportunity to strengthen the student experience and to create a resource for students. So I would say to you that I think students at that point were wanting a sense of community. Does that make sense? Wanting a pla-- a space. So space, which we gave. They wanted the celebratory aspects. Like we talked about the Powwow, and I don't know if the powwow has come back to San Marcos. It was huge, the Powwow, huge, huge! It took months to plan those things. So I went in as the University Liaison to the groups to help them plan that. Gala GATSA for the Oaxacan community. I was on the Gala GATSA community. I remember sitting in the back and, and I think this is me and Cross-Cultural Center, literally (laughs). I had never been to a Gala GATSA before. It was five thousand people! Do you hear me? Five thousand. We, this was, these were huge community events. I was sitting in the back next to and Humberto Garcia, (Jr.). I don't know if he's still there in risk managing--manager. Girl, they threw whole pineapples and cantaloupes through the audience. I'm literally standing there and I was like, is that, is that a whole pineapple? That's a tradition in the, like, in that, you know. But so for us, I think it was more of just really being there to support students. It wasn't until I became a dean, quite honestly, and I got into to the associate director (position) that I started tackling some of those more difficult, sensitive--it was probably director on that, that I was in those conversations that were tackling some of the discrimination that was happening on campuses. You know, there were many conversations where faculty members were saying and doing things that they shouldn't be saying or doing that I as a dean or you know, would say, you can't, that's, you can't do that (laughs). Like, no. We had a faculty member that were, they were very upset about students and their perception of, and they tried to kick students out of the class. And you know, I went in and the faculty member literally when I went in and said, “What the f are you doing here?” And I was like, “You have a right to an advocate and so do students. And so I'm here as a student advocate.” And so we had the conversation and that faculty member said, “You're wasting my effing time.” And just so you're, you're taught if I'm dealing with this! If, if I'm dealing with this as an administrator, and, and mind you, that person was a person of color that said this, it was not, you know, so I--I don't want to send the wrong, it was a person of color. That, you know, and there's a, a story that I've told, and I'll, I know it's seven (o’clock), but I, there's a story that I, I've told publicly. So I started the, it was the Celebration of Culture. 'Cause we used to do it a lot. The Celebration of Culture in the beginning. And so it was, I think an acknowledgement and recognition, of the work that was being done on the campuses. And I was--we had a first Amendment issue that happened when I was an administrator. And we had a controversial speaker that was on campus that was very discriminatory. And we called a meeting and we had a conversation. And in this meeting were a whole bunch of administrators. And someone was giving examples and they said, well, Dilcie, if you--someone called you the N word--and used the word--we wouldn't, you know, this is what would happen or whatever. And then they went to, if someone called you a whore. And then they went to me. And I didn't realize how upset I was getting in this meeting. And the person that was sitting next to me put their hand on my lap and stop me, just help stop me from shaking. And they said, “Can we stop using Dilcie as the example?” And the person said, “I didn't know if Dilcie was Black. I thought she was a hot-headed Puerto Rican.” And mind you, I was an administrator on the campus. Administrator on campus. And finally someone had enough sense to say, “We need to end this meeting.” So we all went our separate ways. And the next morning went in the meeting and I just, I just, I, I was so upset . So, so, so upset. And so they said, you know, we're gonna have this person, you know, apologize, whatever. And so the person came and gave me a half-baked apology. And so a year, a couple years went by. And they came and asked me to do the keynote for, it was, it must have been Celebration of Culture or something at the time. I can't remember. And I decided that one, I would never share who the person was 'cause that wasn't important, but that we were gonna tell the story. And so publicly, in front of 250 people, Executive Council, we did a split screen. And so the person who served as my ally in that moment, and me had a screen between us and we told the story of what happened that day. And with the point of, you never know when you're gonna need an ally. And you never know, even as an administrator, if it can happen to an administrator, it can happen to a student. And so, (CSU) San Marcos, we say that we're inclusive and that we value these things? We need to, we need to be serious about it. Right? And so at the end of the speech, the room did not move, Jennifer. It was silent. And I thought, oh no, I've lost my job. Like I, it is not good. And all of a sudden it broke out into applause and the room stood up and everybody was so happy. And I received so much support, quite honestly, for that. And the president called me, she said, “Is there anything I need to do?” And I was like, “No.” Like, “I just needed you to hear, there's nothing, thank you. Nothing.” And so a few years later they said, “Dilcie, we're gonna have to put you on a team with this person.” And I was like, “No buddy, no, you're not.” And they said, “Yeah, like, we have no choice.” And I said, “Let them say one dumb thing. I'm telling you I'm not putting up with it. I'm not mess--like one dumb thing.” And this person, and I served on this team together for about a year and a half, two years. And about after a year of us working together, we were sitting in my office on a, working on a tough case. And they said, “I just want to truly, truly apologize for what happened. I'm sorry. I was ignorant. I didn't know any better. I know better now. I'm very sorry.” To that point, that individual and I are exceptionally close to this day. I have been to their home, have been to events at their house. He knows not to say those dumb things anymore. But he, there is, there is--there is restoration in some of those things. There is forgiveness, there is learning, there is growth. Does that make sense? And so I share that very long story to say that when I think about (CSU) San Marcos is at the core of, no matter what happens at the Cross-Cultural Center, at the identity based cen--it's relation, it is about relationships. When students were picketing over, some things happened at the campus. The president had the reports to the community. And I went out and I was on the picket line with the students. And someone got back to me that someone said, “I don't like Dilcie. 'Cause she's out there picketing with the students.” No, I wasn't, I was making sure the students had their right to use their voice and that it didn't impact the event, but they had a right to be there. And so let's do that in a way that's supportive of them. Right? When the abortion people came, they may still come with the big signs. (Perez holds hands up over her head) We sat down and had a team and said, “Here's the deal. You're gonna have protestors. Let's manage it accordingly.” I remember putting blue tape right down the middle and said, “Here's the space (laughs), and here's your space. Have at it be respectful.” Be--and I walked down and supported both sides as they did those things. Because I think to me while -- and I think a lot of people on the campus believe this -- while we want to be protected from hateful language, the reality of this is the world that we live in. And what we have to do is create a space where all voices can be heard. Ho: Uh-huh. Perez: And you have a right to safety. You absolutely do, but you don't have a right to be unoffended. Because I will tell you that in the first days of (CSU) San Marcos, there were all kinds of speakers that came that I didn't necessarily agree with. But what I loved is being exposed to ideas that were different than mine that helped to validate. Or invalidate my thought process that made me think about what I believed and didn't believe. That to me is the essence of higher education. That's where I think a Cross-Cultural Center, it's not that you say everything that's popular or bring one side and one belief. You have to be balanced. Ho: Thank you so much for sharing those stories and those memories. They really provide context to what the campus was. And a lot of it is behind the scenes that people wouldn't know, wouldn't expect. Especially students going about their day to day. So thank you for doing that. (both talking) Perez: That's right. There is, I mean, I think they can't, that (CSU) San Marcos is not a perfect place. But what I will say to you is I have, I have the opportunity to view all twenty-three (CSU campuses) now, and I’m oh so appreciative of the DEIJ, the Cross-Cultural Center, the work that's happening at San Marcos in this area. Yeah. Ho: You've mentioned some names of people that you've worked with, people you appreciate, are there, who are some more people that were really important to the Cross-Cultural Center that we might not know about? Perez: I--if you haven't talked to Jonathan Pollard, I think you should find him. He was the Dean of Students at the time who, who really said we're gonna make this happen. And he was part of that with Bridget (Blanshan) that did the 2010. And I think he had the original vision for it. So I would, I think he is part of that. I think, you're gonna ask me and I--Janet Perez-Covacevich, I have to think she was the first student assistant in that space. Ho: Hey, I was gonna ask you about your, that student assistant. Perez: Janet Perez. First, and let me give you her number 'cause I know it by heart from even back then. Ho: Okay. Let's do that via email. Okay. And not on this recording. Yeah. (both talking) Perez: Sure. So I can share that with you. And then Sida Munoz, I, she was in the center. She works at (CSU) San Marcos now. She was in the center in the very beginning a lot. I think sleeping and having space, but she partnered and volunteered a lot. We also added the Cross-Cultural Center and Multicultural Programs did the very first alternative spring break for the campus. So that was part of the work that we did that first year where we took students to San Francisco to the Glide to do work in the community. So that's a little tangential, that was more from the Multicultural programs. But it, all of that was flowing out of that space for sure. Ho: Thank you. Perez: You probably have most everybody else 'cause you have all the directors and everyone that worked there, right? Ho: Yeah. Floyd's reached out to--Floyd reached out to a lot of people. So we have-- Perez: Yeah-- (both talking) Ho: --A lot of folks responding. Perez: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Ho: Including himself. Yeah. (both laugh) Perez: As he, as he should, he's done a marvelous job. Very proud. (both talking) Ho: Yeah. He really has. Perez: Yeah. Ho: I--how are we doing on time? Perez: I probably could give you a few more minutes and then yeah, head out. Are you clo-- are you good or do you have more? Ho: Yeah, I really would like to know a little bit more about you mentioned this concept of the third space. Could you tell me more about that in general or, and or as it relates to CSUSM? Perez: Sure. So during, you know, as folks try and figure out what they're studying and researching, I was exposed and I came, can't even tell you how to, a concept by Homi Bhabha in The Location of Culture that talks about when an individual transitions from one culture to the next, what they do is they take the unique strengths and characteristics of each of those cultures. So take the greatness, the goodness, and then make a third space out of it. And so my work is around breaking down the organizational silos between Academic Affairs and Student Affairs, particularly with the research. But I will say to you that I think that spaces like the Cross-Cultural Center, like identity-based centers are examples of third spaces where you take the unique strengths of faculty and Academic Affairs and the unique strengths of Student Affairs, and you put 'em together. And so the spaces could be, you know could be literally or figuratively. And so for me, as you think about the center space, these are, these should be third spaces where we blend both the best of both worlds. So that's the way in which I approach the work in my daily work, quite honestly, is that students don't care about our organizational silos. They really don't. And so how can we create more seamless, holistic experiences for students? Ho: Um-hmm. Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Could you tell us what you, what you do now at-- Perez: In my current role? Ho: In your current role? Yes. (Perez laughs) Perez: So--so I left (California State University) San Marcos in 2016. I went to be the Dean of Student Life and Judicial Affairs at MiraCosta (Community College). So I was there two years. And then with my boss, who's amazing at the time, thought that I should consider being a vice president of student services. And so I left MiraCosta after two years and became the VP of Student Services and Associate Superintendent at Cerritos College. And so I was there almost four years. And then someone approached me about this job, which is, which was the Associate Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs, Equity and Belonging in the CSU. Right? So really my work now is to bring--is, well, it's hard, but. So I work with all the diversity officers in the system. So I love that, quite honestly, on the system. And so it's been helpful because I have experience doing some of that work and so helpful to highlight the wonderful and important work that they're doing. But my role changed. So I--I am almost been here a year, but I was promoted to Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs. And so that was May 1st, but I will be the acting co-executive vice chancellor for the system for all of academic and student affairs. I know it's hard to keep up with. It's we, but it's movement. And so this position will, will really work with the presidents, provosts, and vice presidents. And the funny part is that Nathan Evans, I don't know if you know that name, he is a co-deputy, but he worked with me at San Marcos. So we started our relationship there. And so people, the chancellor has seen how well we work together, and so we both were promoted to co-lead the division. Ho: That's wonderful. Well, congratulations on your, on your promotion. Perez: Thank you. It's a lot to take in. I, it's, I'm very humbled by it. But it's a, it's a big gig, so. Ho: Yeah. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Cool. I guess we could start wrapping up. Are there any memories or stories or anything that you'd like to share from your CSUSM days? Perez: No, I think I've shared a lot of wonderful memories. I mean, I think of--despite challenges, there really were some pivotal moments that framed me as personally and professionally. When you asked about it, I remember we were trying to beautify the center and Jay Franklin, I think was serving as an interim during that time. And we did a mural and I don't know if you know about the mural, but we came on a Saturday and it was a community mural. And it's so funny because the mural was hanging in the Cross-Cultural Center for years, and finally we were like, it's time to get rid of it. I was like, just let it go. And Floyd would not. And so it's hanging in the College of Humanities, Arts and Behavioral Sciences. The first Cross-Cultural (Center) mural is in that conference room. He had it moved there. And so I, I love that the campus is, I'm telling you, there were no obstacles. And I think that I will tell you that while I know that everyone is not for DEIJ work, that everyone at San Marcos is not for it, I do think that we have tried to address challenges and obstacles in a collaborative, supportive way to start. But I do think that as, as the work continues kind of the way in which we started the rah rah and the hooray, we can't remember, we can't forget, the essence of the work is really in addressing the social injustices that unfortunately have infiltrated their way onto our college campuses. That to me is the essence of the work: is we should be building students up and not tearing them down. We should be beacons of light and hope for societies that are uninterested in confronting the social injustices that have significantly, disproportionately impacted many marginalized populations. That should not be okay. That should not be okay. That if we are telling a student, we want you to come here, we need to do everything that we can to help them be successful. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yes. Ho: That was beautifully said and I appreciate it. I also want to come back to that mural. Could you, in case nobody else in their interviews have talked about it, could you give me a little bit of info on it just so we have it for the record? Perez: Yeah. So it is interesting. The mural we knew we needed, so somebody else in another department, and I think it may have been CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program), had brought an artist to the campus and talked to us about them doing this mural. For their, for their program. So Jay (Franklin) and I and Dick said, “We wanna do that.” So we paid to have the artists come. And it was a Saturday, and I think it was in U(niversity) Hall, outside U Hall 100. We all were there. And he takes you through this process of where you're thinking about community, thinking about what you want, and then you each had like a sliver of the panel that you did. And I can't remember if he, he must have drawn an outline, I'm guessing, if I remember correctly. And if you see it, there's so many vibrant colors, so many vibrant colors. And I actually think we need to pull it and take pictures and document even more. Floyd probably has access to 'em because I can see, I just remember when I would walk around the room and see what people put, you were like, oh! And look at you (laughs). Right? But it represented the sense of community that was involved with the creation of the space. You have to remember, Cross-Cultural Center was there before any of the other centers. Ho: Yeah. Perez: It was the first, unless maybe not, maybe, and we have to confirm, National Latino Research Center may have been around. As a research institute base. But Cross-cultural Center, before all the centers, there was a Cross-Cultural Center that set the foundation for those to come. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: So I would say to you that when you look at it, you'll see just the, the diversity, the tapestry of our community at the time. There's so many things in that mural. So you should go see it. So many things in that mural. Ho: Okay, thank you. (both talking) Perez: I haven't seen it in a few years, but definitely check the mural. 'Cause that we did that probably, maybe I came back in 2006, so maybe 2007, 2008. So that was about four years after we opened. So we're celebrating twenty years (of the CCC being open), right? I'm trying to think, is coming up. So we're, I came to the fifteen, I think he's (Floyd Lai) getting to twenty, so it's, so March, they should count March as kind of the opening, I'm guessing. Ho: Yeah, I think it is March. Perez: It was 2004. He's right, it was March 2004 when I started it. Yeah. Ho: Okay. Perez: So I think that that, that, that mural was really a great you know, I'm, I saw Chanel Bradley and um Gerardo Cabral, he, I'm sure some of the other folks, they're on Facebook and saw them. Diana Sal--Saldivar. I mean these were like the OGs of, and you know what I will tell you is I think that then for a while, students came and went like they were good and pivotal, right? But it was different when you were in the beginning. But I see Floyd recently 'cause I'm still on Facebook with some, and it's like, looks like they have a strong sense of community amongst the, the peer educators. And Floyd brought the interns. And so that has made the difference too especially with resources. I do remember as a director advocating for that space though. You know, I'm pretty proud of how we set that space up. There, there was a lot of political navigation in that and took, you know, a lot of collateral and 'cause you know, there people were vying for space, right? But we had a reputation. And in the negotiations, you see we did pretty good. We gave up some of the physical space on the inside to get the patio on the outside (laughs) like when you think there was a lot of strategy in, in the space and how we navigated those pieces. You gotta remember too – now you're bringing up all these memories for me – the, the Multicultural Programs was started with a lottery grant. Lottery. Ho: (unclear) mean? Perez: So lottery funds, we had to apply for lottery funds. And they were only supposed to be for like two to three years to get you started. So we had to write a lottery application to get it started, to get, to have funding, to have any programming money. Ho: Oh my goodness. I did not know that. Perez: And then I started making some interesting deals across campus to get other funds. Some we probably don't wanna record, but it got access to, to some, you know. And then, oh, and then before I left, I--oh, I forgot about this! So do you, do they still have co-curricular funds? The pro-- you can apply for co-curricular funds? Ho: I think so. Perez: I worked that deal. And so I had told Bridget (Blanshan), I was like, “We need to stop everybody from going all over getting funds. We need to get the funds.” And so by the time I came back, they had co-- Bridget had co-curricular funds. And so we had this process for co-curricular funds. And then Tukwut Life. This is outside. So in Tukwut Life, this, I did a deal with the president's office on Tukwut Life. 'Cause The president's husband came to me and said, “You need to start some campus traditions.” And so Tukwut Life was part of that. Ho: How did you, did you create Tukwut Life? Was that an original-- Perez: With a whole bunch of people. We sure did. Absolutely. Tukwut Life. (both talking) Ho: That's awesome. Perez: We sure did. And I think it's died down a little bit since then, but oh, it was a whole movement. Oh. Ho: What was it? What was Tukwut Life? Perez: It was Friday night and weekend programming so that to make sure that we had night and weekend programs for students because we were increasing the number of residents and we didn't have a lot of community at the time, right? And so we knew we needed some community. Athletics was coming on board in a greater way than it was. And so, and so this is all, this is tangential to the Cross-Cultural Center. I don't know who I thought I was. I really don't. I think I just didn't ask permission. And we were just a different campus then. I don't know. I was telling someone the other day, I--I'm sure we had policies and procedures. I know we did. But I literally, one day when I was trying to create tradition on, you know, Tukwut Courtyard--I, you know, those stickers on the window, I was the first one to put all those stickers on the window. You know how it has the, oh. And then I plastered the stairs with, with CSU Gear. I had a professional company come out. I don't know who I asked. Like I was trying to think like, “Did you ask anyone? Like who told you you could do?” No, I was gonna create Tukwut Courtyard as a spirit courtyard. I, we held a pep rally there. But literally I had stairs and, you know, we used to get, I get real happiness, students would come take pictures at commencement time with their family around those, those pictures, yeah. Ho: Um-Hm. Perez: And, but then I couldn't put the stickers up anymore 'cause the concrete's old. So then we had to get rid of them, so we couldn't do that anymore. So then I had to go think about something else. Um-hmm. I don't know who I thought I was. I just need you to know. I like, now everything's so bureaucratic, right? No. We just did stuff, we did what we needed to do. Ho: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you just have to not think about it and just do it. Perez: And I, the campus was gracious to me. I also wasn't doing dumb stuff. Right. I was doing things that, but I don't know where I—all of a sudden woke up one day and I was like, I couldn't, I'm hiring a company, put some stickers on some stairs. Ho: Yeah. (inaudible) Perez: But I think that with the Cross-Cultural Center, why it worked, is that I didn't have to always ask permission. I did--I knew what I was advocating for and the campus was gracious enough to entertain that. And I think I had enough credibility at that point that they trusted me. Ho: Yeah. I think so. Perez: I don't think everything's perfect. I probably could have documented stuff better. Literally like when I look at what Alexis did and you, I was like, I was, I was just doing the rah rah fun part. Getting it started. The sustaining it is the hard part, right? So I know what I've learned about myself as a professional. I'm great at starting things like I can get a vision going. Like Cross-Cultural Center that changed and redefined--I would not be here today had it not been for the work in Multicultural Programs (inaudible). I would not, it changed--that one decision to join that team changed the trajectory of my life and my career. Ho: That's really cool. Perez: I'm, I'm pretty grateful. Pretty, I am proud of the Cross-Culture Center. I'm proud of the way Floyd (Lai) has led it. I'm proud and I'm not trying to be funny. I'm proud it has stayed controversy free (laughs). I think it has done important work in really kind, meaningful relational ways. Floyd's out there doing DEIJ work, he just does it differently than someone that's out there yelling and screaming. His work that he's doing in that center, you look at what that center has done – as you are (laughs) – for the campus. He, he has that--each of the directors, I think has added and put their nuance and their flair on that center. And I'm internally grateful that 20 years later I am proud to be connected and associated with such great work. Ho: It really does feel like a center of, of love and acceptance. It's really a beautiful, a really beautiful place. And you can, you can see that from anybody that you, you talk to. They all love the Cross-Cultural Center. Perez: It is. And it really is. And he has just furthered that vision. Like we started with that. But the population, like you have to think, we only had, I don't know when I left, I don't even know, maybe 7,000 students at that, at the time when I left, you know, once. And then came back and we grew like in, you know, seven years to 15,000. That's, that center has stayed tried and true. Tried and true. So what that tells me is I, yeah, we set a great foundation but the folks that came thereafter have really done a magnificent job and created a legacy for that case. Sara Sheik, I think about what she added, you know, that's where the Social Justice Summit was started. We were all there. I don't know if they told you. We were sitting there and we felt like people were too much in their heads. Oh, they were just, they, it was outside of them. Outside of them. And we were like, no, no, no. I remember sitting on the swing there and we were like, we gotta do something. So then we created the exercise madder than Hell. Mad as Hell. And we wanted to get them to their hearts. And we did that exercise Mad as Hell. Scott Gross. Scott Gross and I started, Sara Sheikh came in, we created that Mad as Hell exercise. They're probably still not doing it 'cause it seemed like we had controversy at every Social Justice Summit. But we were doing that work with students. And honestly, I went through a training not too long ago and they were doing equity work and I was like, “Uh, we were doing this with students, like first-year students in 2005. And you're literally taking people through this right now? This is outdated work. What are talking about?” Then I think about the students at San Marcos? They were getting that in their first year. You tell me how much different and how transformative that would be for them coming out their senior year. Ho: Yeah. Perez: I'm inspired and moved. Ho: That's great. That's so awesome. Perez: You just made me excited about the Cross-Cultural Center even more. Ho: Wait, say that again? Perez: I said, “You just made me so excited about the Cross-Cultural Center.” Ho: I, I'm really happy and I feel like I'm supposed to wrap up this interview, but I'm afraid that you'll think of more great memories to share and things to say. I don't wanna cut us off. Perez: Yeah. Well here's the thing. I will let you know if some things come up that I think are important, I'll reach out to you and let you know. 'Cause I--I'm, I am so grateful that you all are doing this. I think it is a really critical part of San Marcos and its history. Not just as a center, but in DEIJ work. For sure. Ho: Absolutely. Yeah. And the stories from people who were there, who started these movements and experienced them and made them happen are really important. 'Cause they're not always documented on paper. Perez: Yeah. I didn't do that very well. And I'm sure others, (Ho laughs) we were, we were hustling. We were hustling for sure. Right. So, but we did it. Ho: That's great. Yeah. And we have the proof of it now, celebrating the anniversary coming up. Perez: That’s exciting. I'm excited for you. So, well, it's nice to meet you. I hope that we, I just did an official visit there a few months ago, but hope we have the chance to meet in person. Ho: I hope so too! Thank you Dr. Perez. I will go ahead and end the interview now. Perez: Wonderful. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.xml PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Perez, Dilcie. Interview May 30, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Dilcie Perez is Deputy Vice Chancellor, Academic and Student Affairs for the CSU, as well as a California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) alumna. She graduated with her degree in Bachelors of Arts in Political Science. In this interview, Perez explains how CSUSM was ahead of its time in regards to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) work; however at the beginning of her employment with CSUSM, the university did not have Multicultural Programs (the predecessor to the Cross-Cultural Center). Perez recalls her work with Multicultural Programs, including her being offered the opportunity to open the program upon tendering her resignation to the university. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-43 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University. Multicultural Programs California State University San Marcos. Student Academic Services Outreach Program California State University San Marcos. Student Affirmative Action Education, Higher Human rights Mural painting and decoration Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-05-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dilcie Perez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dilcie Perez Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience