1 10 82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Albert F. Toro OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran United States Army;Vietnam;Chilean American Veterans;Sergeant OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 SC027-073 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Army ; Vietnam ; Chilean American Veterans ; Sergeant Albert F. Toro Jason Beyer Moving Image ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/149798808a6a331fca4bb254ae05fe7e.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 62 Military Background and Upbringing Albert F. Toro served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War and attained his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. He was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. U.S. Army ; E5 Sergeant ; Vietnam War ; Santiago (Chile) ; junior college ; draft ; conscription 0 113 Military Conscription Toro was working and attending junior college when he received notice to register for military service. He was presented with the choice to either serve or leave the country. Toro wanted to finish college and build a life for himself in the United States, so he was drafted into the U.S. Army. Around 1967, he was inducted into the Armed Services without the opportunity to defer. U.S. Army ; draft ; conscription ; Vietnam War ; Armed Forces ; college ; deferment ; register ; induction ; physical ; Federal Bureau of Investigation ; U.S. Air Force ; high school 0 340 Military Training and Promotions Toro trained as infantry at Fort Ord. Frequent rain and long walks made training physically challenging. He received on-the-job training as a supplier while in advanced individual training. He recalls how his battalion commander, Captain Cunning, was a kind man who mentored him. Toro became an armorer and was awarded for his outstanding service. infantry ; rain ; meningitis ; battalion ; barracks ; base camp ; training ; post exchange ; platoon ; advanced individual training ; basic training ; on-the-job training ; supplier ; Captain Cunning ; commander ; officer ; armorer ; M14 rifle ; M16 rifle ; Military Operational Standard ; corporal ; sergeant ; Private First Class ; Fort Ord (Calif.) ; Highway 1 (Calif.) ; Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) 0 642 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Toro describes how difficult it was to sacrifice his independence as he adapted to the military lifestyle. Additionally, it was difficult to become independent again after years of depending on others in the service. military lifestyle ; draft ; Vietnam ; civilian ; Armed Forces ; U.S. Army 0 752 Interactions with People During Stateside Service After his on-the-job-training, Toro became permanent cadre and stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the training unit that he was assigned to. Toro describes the camaraderie among cadre at Fort Ord as some of his favorite experiences during stateside military service. on-the-job training ; cadre ; camaraderie ; sergeant ; lieutenant ; Vietnam ; Fort Ord (Calif.) 0 828 Deployment to Vietnam In January of 1968, Toro was deployed to Tan Son Nhut, located near Saigon, Vietnam. He remembers the gigantic base camp, its large barracks, and the mosquito nets that surrounded the buildings. Toro recalls being attacked on his first night in Vietnam, hiding in a concrete bunker. Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; Expiration Term of Service ; Vietnam ; Vietnam ; base camp ; Armed Forces ; Bearcat ; mosquitoes ; culvert 0 967 Interactions with Local Cultures and People in Vietnam The only frequent interactions Toro had with local Vietnamese people were the kitchen police who served food for American armed forces. After his time at Tan Son Nhut, Toro served for six months at Củ Chi Base Camp as part of the supply unit providing food, weapons, and equipment to the field. kitchen police ; Vietnam ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; 25th Infantry Division ; Viet Cong ; artillery supply ; supplier ; artillery unit ; supply unit ; battery ; service ; sorties ; base camp ; battalion 0 1105 Sleeping Arrangements in Vietnam Toro describes sleeping arrangements in Vietnam and his experience repairing a flooded hooch during a storm. sleeping arrangements ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; storm ; hooch ; post exchange 0 1161 Experiences with Wild Animals in Vietnam Fumigation, traps, and mosquito nets helped prevent any negative experiences Toro had with wild animals. However, heavy rain would cause problems for housing. wild animals ; viper ; fumigation ; rats ; mosquito nets ; tents ; rain ; Vietnam 0 1252 Supplying Artillery Units in Vietnam As a Supply NCO, Toro supplied artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. combat ; combat service ; combat service support ; supply ; artillery ; ammunition ; food ; battalion ; clerics ; ammo dump ; Howitzers ; sorties ; convoys ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Supply NCO ; Non-Commissioned Officer 0 1347 Recreation in Vietnam Although Toro says there were “no weekends” in Vietnam, he does describe moments of respite, including barbecues and film nights. recreation ; Vietnam ; war ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; barbecue ; cooking ; conexes ; projector ; movies ; The Green Berets ; John Wayne 0 1431 Stories of Camaraderie and Supplying Artillery in Vietnam Toro was mentored by Sergeant Johnson, who took him under his wing as a clerk. While in Cần Thơ as part of his ammunition supply work, he would make trips to get ammunition from the South Vietnamese army. Toro recalls humorous interactions with the South Vietnamese army, specifically what he had to do in order to receive the ammunition. Toro was grateful to supply ammunition because it kept him from being sent to the field. However, he does recall the fear of landmines and seeing exploded civilian buses. Sergeant ; Chile ; Armed Forces ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; ammunition ; clerk ; Vietnamese ; English ; Howitzers ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; South Vietnam ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) ; ammo dump ; office ; officer ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; sorties ; convoys ; artillery unit ; helicopter ; roads ; landmines ; rice paddies ; buffalo ; civilians ; buses ; farmers ; Charlie Battery ; rubber plantation ; French ; base camp 0 1734 Communication with Family Since Toro made the decision to stay in the U.S. and join the military instead of returning to Chile, his family was upset. The long period of separation was especially hard on his parents. family ; friends ; communication ; parents ; Chile ; South America 0 1762 Treating Others with Respect as a Sergeant As a Sergeant, Toro wanted to treat the guard duty he was in charge of with respect. When guards were in foxholes, Toro would bring them food, help them stay awake, and try to keep them comfortable. Sergeant ; guard duty ; respect ; friend ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; platoon ; foxhole ; shelter ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; trust 0 1838 Unusual Event Experienced in Vietnam Toro tells a story about guarding an airfield in Cần Thơ. A soldier reported from a 30-foot tall tower that he was afraid, and Toro went to support him. Rain was flooding the area. Toro almost got washed off into barbed wire and nearly lost his weapon. By the time he reached the top of the tower, Toro and the guard were fired upon by snipers. The guard panicked and jumped off the tower but did not break any bones. guard ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Cobra helicopters ; Bell AH-1 Cobra ; jungle ; towers ; rain ; Jeep ; barbed wire ; sniper fire ; M16 ; .45 caliber handgun ; sandbags 0 1982 Sleeping in the Deuce-and-a-Half in Vietnam According to Toro, U.S. armed forces slept in tents at base camp in Cần Thơ and hoped to eventually build hooches. Heavy rains and mosquitoes made sleeping in the tents difficult. So Toro spent three months sleeping in his M35 2½-ton cargo truck, commonly referred to as a Deuce-and-a-Half. Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; hooch ; mosquito nets ; mosquitoes ; sleeping arrangements 0 2097 End of Military Service Before ending his service, Toro had “two weeks off” on guard duty in Cần Thơ. He recalls spending most of the day in base camp, occasionally visiting an enlisted club that served food. He avoided leaving base camp or exposing himself too much because he wanted to make it back home alive. guard duty ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; enlisted club ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; base camp 0 2218 Returning to the U.S., Visiting Family in Chile, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Toro returned to the U.S. in the San Francisco bay area. He then spent months in Chile with his family before returning back to Los Angeles. Using the G.I. Bill, he was able to complete college and start his career in the aerospace industry in defense. San Francisco (Calif.) ; U.S. Air Force ; Expiration Term of Service ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Chile ; United States ; G.I. ; college ; South America ; family ; aerospace industry ; defense industry 0 2402 Camaraderie During Service and Inability to Reconnect with Friends after Service While working at TRW in Torrance, California, he ran into a fellow Vietnam veteran. The moment was memorable because Toro had lost contact with most of his Vietnam comrades. Toro had hoped to reconnect with the fellow veteran, but the interaction was cold and brief. Despite this, he says the comradery in Vietnam was strong. Toro tells a story about he and his comrades building a makeshift bar using ammunition boxes, plywood, and plastic roofing. Vietnam ; Torrance (Calif.) ; refineries ; gas station ; TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.) ; defense contracts ; mechanic ; motor pool ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Tet Offensive ; camaraderie ; ammunition ; bar ; Howitzers ; plywood ; roofing ; C-rations ; artillery 0 2603 Vietnam Veterans’ Feelings of Ostracization After Service Toro describes the feelings of ostracization he experienced in the U.S. as a Vietnam veteran. He was especially upset that the “amazing people” he served alongside were often ridiculed. Toro tells a story about a group of long range patrols who had a monkey as a guard animal. Toro says he started to feel prouder of his military service once the attitude toward Vietnam veterans changed and they were better recognized for their service. Vietnam ; ostracization ; Travis Air Force Base ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; U.S. Army ; veterans ; infantry ; baboon ; monkey ; dog ; long-range reconnaissance patrol ; search and destroy ; Viet Cong ; the 25th Infantry division ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; My Lai ; massacre ; recognition ; baby killer 0 2907 Life Lessons from Military Service Toro says friendship was a life lesson he learned in military service. He describes how some of the less fortunate people in his training unit at Fort Ord had chosen military service as an alternative to jail. These were often teenagers. friendship ; discipline ; Fort Ord ; Category IV ; Cat 4 ; teenager ; military service ; jail teenager 0 2960 Message for Future Generations Toro says that if he learned one thing, it is that you have to survive in war. You cannot count on anyone else. survive ; survival ; risk 0 3026 Association with the San Marcos Community Toro became associated with the San Marcos community through his neighbor, Jason Beyer, the oral history interviewer. San Marcos (Calif.) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; interview 0 3051 Comradery and Recreation during Military Service Although he struggles to remember the names of friends he made, Toro reminisces on the comradery he experienced during service, including recreational activities like gambling that he chose not to participate in. basic training ; friends ; interviewer ; Fort Ord ; Vietnam ; hooch ; gambling ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; beer ; comradery ; cooks 0 3138 What More People Should Know About Veterans Toro wants more people to know about what veterans went through. He speaks about their lack of freedom, and how many people were not cut out for military service but nonetheless served. freedom ; soldier ; pacifist ; danger ; bravery ; military service 0 3235 Learning How to Become Independent After Military Service Toro describes how difficult it was to adapt to civilian life as an independent person. Since he was in his mid-twenties when he entered the military, he says that younger enlistees and conscripts would have a more difficult time readjusting than he did. independence ; dependence ; meals ; conflict ; military draft ; young people ; U.S. Armed Forces ; Expiration Term of Service 0 Oral history Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.785 --> 00:00:58.000 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Albert F Toro. Today's date is Friday, November 15th, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library at CSUSM, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Beyer, interviewee Albert F Toro, camera operator Adel Bautista, Marilyn Huerta, and Kathy Toro. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name—first, middle, and last name. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:02.865 Albert ; and middle initial, F ; and last name, Toro. 00:01:02.865 --> 00:01:04.245 The branch of service you were in? 00:01:04.245 --> 00:01:06.314 US Army. 00:01:06.314 --> 00:01:08.405 What was your highest rank attained? 00:01:08.405 --> 00:01:10.325 E5 Sergeant. 00:01:10.325 --> 00:01:12.394 And the war or conflicts you served in? 00:01:12.394 --> 00:01:14.424 The Vietnam conflict. 00:01:14.424 --> 00:01:22.135 So, I'm gonna begin by starting with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:22.135 --> 00:01:26.644 I was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. 00:01:26.644 --> 00:01:28.325 What was life like in Chile? 00:01:28.325 --> 00:01:32.405 Beautiful. I had a nice upbringing. 00:01:32.405 --> 00:01:36.000 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.495 No. 00:01:39.495 --> 00:01:44.034 Did you hold any jobs before you entered the military service? 00:01:44.034 --> 00:01:53.814 I was going to college at junior college, and I was drafted outta junior college. 00:01:53.814 --> 00:01:58.385 So you were drafted—could you tell me how you were drafted into the US Army? 00:01:58.385 --> 00:04:14.000 Well, at the event to come to the United States, and some of the forms that you fill out there is a little strip about an inch by 12 inches wide. And it says, "Upon the age of 18, you must register to the military service of the United States." And, so I sort of—you know—with time, I guess—I was working, going to college—and I never did have the intention not to register—that's a completely—disregard that fact. So around 1967, about—I think about three years later—I was notified a friendly with the—it was a letter in my apartment from the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation)—(Toro laughs)—saying that you have to register within a week. A couple weeks later—I registered—but a couple weeks later, I was called in for a physical for the—that was about—in September, I think I received the notice. And in December of 1966, I got the—I was inducted. I had a physical and I was inducted in the Armed Forces. And even though going to junior college—I guess—I didn't have the opportunity to defer. I was taking so many units and I was working at the same time. So I—at that time, I think the minimum requirement was 14 units for college, and I have 12. And, so I said—they gave me a choice, either serve or leave the country. So, you know, my ambitions were, you know, to serve—and not only that, because I wanna finish school and fill—you know, fulfill my dream to, you know, become a productive person in this country and also to be able to finish my college. So I—two years, I said, it's gonna be not too bad. And that was the way I started in the Armed Forces. I mean—I guess—the way I was drafted. Do I have to elaborate on that? 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:19.204 Did you have a choice in the branch of service that you joined? 00:04:19.204 --> 00:04:57.105 I did originally. I want to tell you something, that I heard so much about the Air Force, and I like electronics so much that I say, well, that'd be a big good a chance to—what do you call it—probably if I get drafted sometime in the future. That was my thought. So I applied to the Air Force—I remember that—but I never got a called. And they tell you, finish your high (school), finish your college, and then we'll talk. But that was kinda—I guess the Army had to step forward on me, you know, just—I got drafted and my choice—the only choice they gave me was Army. 00:04:57.105 --> 00:05:01.644 How did it make you feel that you were drafted. 00:05:01.644 --> 00:05:40.985 Because of my age, I feel a little—and also my school—I said, this is gonna have to be postponed for, you know, two years. And I wasn't that young, you know, I was 25. So I said, I'll be 27. And then when I said, probably when I come back to to school I'm gonna have to probably take again all the subjects that I was taking in college. And that happened, 'cause when I came back, I had to retake almost everything. And I lost another two years. But, you know, I don't have no regrets with—you know, I guess. 00:05:40.985 --> 00:05:47.685 For your early days of service during bootcamp, what type of training did you receive? 00:05:47.685 --> 00:06:58.235 I was infantry. So we did a lot of big walks. We did a lot of firing. A lot of, uh—what do you call—and the—Fort Ord was kind of tough because we had a lot of rain. So almost all our training was in the rain. At that time, that year it was really—it really rained the whole year long. Plus we had a meningitis issue, so our battalions—what they call, they were—we were located up in the new barracks—Fort Ord—and that was in the east side of what you call the base camp. The old barracks were right down by the Highway 1, the bottom of Monterey Peninsula. We were up on top and we were all restricted for the full training. To go to the movies, we have to go only—we were allowed to go all together—or whatever activities, PX (post exchange) and all that. We were all allowed to get as a platoon, you know, as a group. So we weren't restricted until AIT, the advanced individual training. But it was, you know, it was a lot of work (laughs). 00:06:58.235 --> 00:07:08.000 What is your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training and in school? 00:07:08.000 --> 00:08:26.415 On the training, the best part is when I left basic training. Basic training was, you know, it was hard. I mean, I'm 25 years old and you have a lot of young people, but I did fairly well. I could run, I could do all the stuff. And there I have some issues—you know, physical issues—but, I overcame those. And—but the most rewarding thing that I ever got—(long pause, Toro starts crying)—was in—it was in basic AIT, I had a lucky time to end up with an advance of a—I was in the on-the-job training as a supplier, and I was supposed to be in there for, I think it was about six or eight weeks—and I run into a very kind man, which was our battalion commander. He was named Captain Cunning, and he was like a father to me. And he helped me a lot with my career too. And he acknowledged my—you know—that I was capable to do the job and rewarded me with that. 00:08:26.415 --> 00:08:28.975 So he was one of your instructors? 00:08:28.975 --> 00:09:29.625 He was actually the—he was my commander. He was actually the commander because we were in an AIT unit. I was in a basic—I was in a AIT unit infantry. So we were training troops, and he was in charge of that unit, which was a platoon. It was—we have four platoons in that—I forget the name of it—I think it was "C-1-2" or something like that—that was the AIT. So we trained infantry people. They were ready to, you know, ready to go to the—and fight. So we trained—that was the last echelon on the training and forward the AIT events, individual training. So you will be preparing yourself to go to whatever the commitment was. But he was very—for being an officer for, you know, infantry—it was really a—what do you call—sort of thrown off because—so he wasn't—he was a tough man, but he was also kind. 00:09:29.625 --> 00:09:35.195 Did you qualify with any equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, or weapons? 00:09:35.195 --> 00:10:10.904 Well, I became a—in fact, I became an armorer, and I got awarded for being an outstanding armorer, taking care of the weapons on the company. There were 250—I think about 250, I guess, M14s (M14 rifle)—we trained with the M14 at that time. We didn't have the M16 (M16 rifle)—I guess it was not available in the 60s. And all need time to qualify. If you qualify an inventory, that is the only time that you could touch the M16. We qualified use of the M16. 00:10:10.904 --> 00:10:13.000 Did you receive any promotions? 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:42.553 Yeah. I was promoted to E4 Sergeant. I mean, actually it was—they promoted me to it because of the—it was the infantry and by MOS, which is my Military Operational Standard—was supplied, I could not be a corporal or a sergeant. So they make me a PFC-4 (Private First Class), but they gave me an acting jack. They gave me the two stripes of a corporal for that because of the training unit. 00:10:42.553 --> 00:10:49.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:49.105 --> 00:11:34.784 Well being spoiled, it was tough. You know, when you—because I was already 25, so I have my ways and you're pretty—you know, kind of independent. And I never thought that I was gonna be drafted. I was more like a civilian. So it was kind of hard. I feel a little like in confinement for me, for a while. I mean, especially when I was in Vietnam, because, you know, a long time for serving and—you know, it's difficult for a person like a civilian. They all of a sudden—they throw you in that—and I've always being pretty "I want to do my things my way." So it was tough. It was tough. But I followed, you know, the suit. I didn't fight it. 00:11:34.784 --> 00:11:42.514 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to. 00:11:42.514 --> 00:12:32.475 I just, become a civilian later on. But you get pretty much—you know, I think it is funny that even though being 25 and having my own things as a civilian, to end up for two years in the Armed Forces—and at the end, you depend a lot. That's another thing that I forgot to tell you, that sort of, you can—you start thinking still that someone is backing you up. Because when you're in the Army, you're following. You're not making your own decisions, really. You are more a follower. So, and then it gets difficult. Yeah, I'm a civilian now, and what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna get my four square meals a day, you know? So then you start thinking, and you have to get out of the mood. But yeah. 00:12:32.475 --> 00:12:40.034 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:12:40.034 --> 00:13:48.835 Well, the best—I think it was the—I guess, life, you know, as I became a—like I mentioned, when I was in the OJT (on-the-job training)—after my OJT, which is six weeks, I became permanent cadre. So I stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the—in the training unit that I was assigned to do my on-the-job training. And that's what I found—there was a lot of—you know, I think the people—I guess since you are cadre, you are in a different position than if you are a trainee. So there was a lot of camaraderie in there in the—among the—what do you call the cadre—the sergeants, the lieutenants. And there was a lot of like—you know, we could kid around. Instead of—when you're a trainee—when you're in training, you know, the officers and all that, they want some respect. So that become a little more lax. It was fun. I think I enjoyed the—Fort Ord was fun. I mean, not too much as when I—I guess when I went to Vietnam, that was a little tougher. Yeah. 00:13:48.835 --> 00:13:52.274 What war conflicts were you a part of? 00:13:52.274 --> 00:16:07.794 Well, in January of 1968, I end up in Tan Son Nhut, that is at Saigon. That was my starting at Vietnam. I forgot the term they used. I think it's ETS (Expiration Term of Service)—I think is the end of the term of service. But this is when I got—we got in Vietnam after a long trip, we end up in Tan Son Nhut, which is in Saigon, and we end up in the processing base in there. I think it's called Bearcat—I think it was called. And that's where they process all the Armed Forces. Basically it was mostly—I saw Army people. And we arrived sort of late in the evening. I don't remember having shower. I think that they took us to the barracks. I never forget that. And it was a gigantic base camp with all the—you know, these big barracks that they were two tier buildings. Usually they were made outta wood, and they get—because of mosquitoes they were surrounded by mosquito net mesh. And usually these barracks have a long haul, and they got all the bunkers, you know, lined up. You got probably here, probably downstairs, there were like 50 people. And upstairs, there was a two story. And I end up right underneath in the bottom. I don't think we have supper that night. I don't have a recall of that. But I remember one thing really clear, that that night we got hit. Badly, we got hit. And I really panic. I didn't know what to do. And we hide. I mean, I remember that we had this bunker made out of concrete, like a culvert. And I got under this place in there, and that was my first experience in Vietnam—late at nighttime. And oh my God, I said, this is gonna be tough. 00:16:07.794 --> 00:16:14.105 What were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were deployed in Vietnam? 00:16:14.105 --> 00:18:25.365 The only interaction we had usually was with the KP (kitchen police) people we had, and the girls and the young men, they had, were used for—you know, they help us, you know, with serving. And they were very nice people. They enjoyed—we used to teach them a lot. They were good people. And, since we were in—there were two bases—I ended up in Vietnam where I ended up in a base camp called Củ Chi, which north of Saigon is about 50 miles, and that was the 25th Infantry Division. So we—they have no access, we can't go nowhere. There's a town in the Củ Chi, and they say it was—the Viet Cong was right in there all the time, so there was no access to it. And I end up in a supply unit. So we used to supply food and ammunition to our—I end up in an artillery unit, which—but I end up in a battery called "the service." We used to service—food, weapons and whatever require in the field. And also we used to fix all the equipment for them. But I end up in the food—I end up in supply, supplying the troops for food so everything was flown off. From Củ Chi, there was no access to the outside world by—only flying. And I guess that was my experience there, supplying the troops. We used to fly all the sorties. I never flew out of Củ Chi, but we used to provide it to the helicopters and all that. Our artillery units were in the field. And our base camp was completely sealed from—what do you call—the outside world, although the town of Củ Chi was right next door. And I've seen in pictures now of pretty—it's kind of a large town today. But that was—I guess that was my—there was no out. I mean, I was in. So all my work was—for six months I spent in there just supplying, providing food for our battalion and flying sorties out to the field. 00:18:25.365 --> 00:18:30.243 How were your sleeping arrangements like? 00:18:30.243 --> 00:19:21.025 In Củ Chi we had hooches that were built of, you know, wood, tin roof. And I never forget that we had a storm one time—I'm going to tell you about that one, and that's interesting—because we got a storm, and the roof was thin, so it got blown off. So, and then of course, we got all wet in there. So at nighttime, at my cell was a couple more troopers. We end up up on the roof nailing the tin roof to prevent the water from going inside of the—(laughs)—inside of the hooch. And the place was pretty, you know, it was nice. It was, you know—we had a PX (post exchange)—we had not that many comforts but it was also—you know, like I said, we were restricted. 00:19:21.025 --> 00:19:24.545 Did you have any problems with wild animals or anything? 00:19:24.545 --> 00:20:17.025 We had a lot of—wild animals, yes. We had some snakes in there. I think that we found some of them is supposed to be—they call a viper. They were pretty deadly. But we never encounter. I didn't never encounter, because these people used to come around and I guess they used to fumigate and make sure that we were safe. They put all kinds of—they have the trap for the rats. We have rats. So in all the corners in there, we had—(laughs)—we had rat traps for what do you call—to prevent us, you know, to be in—I guess—bothered with these little creatures. But the tents were, you know, like I I mentioned, they were all floors with hardwood, and we were surrounded by mosquito nets around the air to protect us from—mosquito was a big issue in Vietnam. Yeah. 00:20:17.025 --> 00:20:20.105 Did the rats ever get inside your tents at all? 00:20:20.105 --> 00:20:52.795 No, we were lucky. And they were usually—the tents, they were—the buildings were about a foot off the ground, so we're (unintelligible) because when it rain in there we have a foot of water outside. And it will rain, and they will rain in there, and a foot of rain was nothing in a couple hours. And after that it will dry automatically. I guess that's what Vietnam is. I guess the water gets absorbed pretty quick. So you—after the rain, looks like it never ever rained. Yeah. 00:20:52.795 --> 00:21:01.865 Were you in combat, combat support, combat service support role, or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant? 00:21:01.865 --> 00:21:58.335 No, I was in the combat zone and we were supplying our artillery units—we have Alpha, Bravo and Charlie—and that was the thing: supply ammunition, ammo, plus food in the field. At that time, when I was in Củ Chi, I didn't fly any sorties. I was mostly involved in supplying the food—supplying the food for our existing unit, and plus, they're called the battalion. We have a battalion in there with all the sort of people that provided more support on the clerical side. So we had to supply for people—a hundred people—you know, supply all the food. And also the sorties were flown out by other—and ammo was also taken by what we used to call "the ammo-dumping people" to supply Howitzers in the field. So they used to go on convoys out of Củ Chi. 00:21:58.335 --> 00:22:01.005 Where else did you serve in Vietnam? 00:22:01.005 --> 00:22:27.674 I serve as a—I was a supply NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) for ammo. So I used to order the ammunition for the field for the Howitzers. And also I did a lot of food supply. We used to supply the food, so we had to fly sorties for food and ammo to the field. 00:22:27.674 --> 00:22:33.005 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:22:33.005 --> 00:23:51.035 There was not too much in there because when you're in Vietnam—I guess in the war—there are no weekends. So we did seven days a week. And usually we give us—on Sundays, usually the NCOs will go and cook for us. So we have a barbecue, and they will, you know, give us—and we were lucky because we were able to absorb some t-bone steaks in there, and some good hamburgers. So the NCOs and the commanders will cook for the troops. So that was a—it was usually, typically then about 5:00 PM, so we get the rest of the evening. And occasionally we had these conexes with that—so you probably remember that—you're interviewing me, and I know you're familiar with the—conexes are these metal containers. And inside we have a projector, so sometime we used to get movies. And we got one of The Green Berets movies. And I never forget that with John Wayne. And people were laughing so much about it, because you're in a war zone and you got a green beret. Do you remember that? Probably you remember that, about John Wayne in there. And that was the funniest thing in the world, I think that hit me. Yeah. 00:23:51.035 --> 00:23:57.724 What kinds of friendships and camaraderie did you form while serving and with whom, while you were in Vietnam? 00:23:57.724 --> 00:28:54.025 I had a—I think it was Sergeant—oh my God, I can't remember his name right now, with all this. There was a sergeant in there that sort of was my protege, and he was from Idaho, I think. And he—Sergeant Johnson was one of them. Sergeant Johnson—let me go back—he was a—it's a first sergeant. He was in charge. He was pretty keen on me because of—for being, I guess—I was born in Chile, so he was kind of keen on me that he couldn't understand why I was serving in the Armed Forces. He used to tell me, "Oh I can't believe this." And the other ones—I can't remember his name, and he was the one who actually helped me a lot. He was an E6. He was an ammunition—what do you call—NCO? And he took me under his arms, and I become his clerk. So I used to run the runs for him, I used to ride on—the phone was Vietnamese, but they have a little translation in English, which it says what came of ammo we were getting for our Howitzers. So he gave me the task to run to town. This is moving to when I was in Cần Thơ—this is South Vietnam by the Mekong Delta. And he assigned me—"You're gonna write all the forms for the ammo, and you're gonna go and wait." And there were Vietnamese—we had to get from the south—from the ARVNs (Army of the Republic of Vietnam)—we have to get the ammo, believe me or not. So the ammo dump was in the charge of the South Vietnamese Army. So they used to make me wait in there. I sat in there in the office, looking at the officer. He—the only thing I have to do, sign the paper. So he made me wait in there for an hour or so until he decided to sign the paper. And I got them, and I went over there and I start—we go, you know—we went over to the ammo dump to get out ammo. But that was—every time I went over there, every time I had this, it was kind of a—how do you call them? It was kind of a thing that he had for us, that we have to wait, even though he signed the document. But he made us wait. I waited for an hour. I was—I used to smoke, but I quit smoking. Good thing I did. So I waited. I waited in there for this officer to sign the paper and let me go. And then the funny thing about this is—and then we go to the ammo dump, and the ARVNs—which is a regular Vietnamese army—they don't like us at all. So, and then we go in there and this big Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) to load up the ammo. And then they used to give us challenges. They used to sort of challenge us. I mean, to get in to some kind of a scheme. It was kinda weird. It was like a—it was sort of a—what you call it—it was a ritual that we have to go through. Every time we go for ammo, we have to go through that ritual. I mean, for these people, they used to tease us. I don't think they want to fight with us, but they were teasing us—doing some karate movements and all that. It was funny. You wouldn't believe it. And that sergeant told me—disregard this, you know, I forgot the name of—I can't remember what the name is. I hope it comes. But he was great. He helped me a lot too, because he's the one that kept me from going—really—I was almost end up in the field, but he said, "I need you in here." So he kept me in the base camp. But we had to—we had to fly sorties, but we also had to go on convoys many, many times to, you know, deliver the ammo. Because all our artillery units were in the field. Some of them were way out in, you know, helicopter flight, but some other ones—the roads were really tough because they have to clear the roads because they had landmines. So we waited for all the traffic. These guys were really smart. When I was in Cần Thơ, we had to cross the river, the Mekong Delta, and go to the field that was miles away. And the roads were really—there was nobody in the road, you see? There were all the—the roads were all—they were not paved—were all like granite compacted. And we're all riding on top of rice paddies in there. And you can see the buffaloes in there, and you can see people, you know, the farmers in there, in the road. But always there was a fear of landmines. So we went over in the road when everything was clear, we thought, and we saw a lot of things in there. We saw buses with civilians, and they're blown up. And we were lucky we never got hit. So we deliver—we have batteries, you know, like—this was Charlie Battery. It was—I can't remember the name of the city that we were located. It was another city. It was rice—it was a rubber plantation. Beautiful—beautiful rubber plantation. I remember, I'll never forget, it was like the French left it in there. It was really incredible. And the roads were amazing. I mean, the roads were not amazing. It's just that the scenery around us, because we were in a base camp all the time, to go out in the field and take a risk, It was something else. I mean, sort of like, I want to get outta here, I wanna see something else. But you saw a lot of, you know, a lot of bad things in the road too. Yeah. 00:28:54.025 --> 00:29:00.605 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:29:00.605 --> 00:29:22.345 Yeah. My parents were in Chile, South America—all of them. So they really suffered from this. They weren't too appreciative, I guess, that I made the choice to, you know, stay and serve. So that was really hard for my parents—where we come from a large family, seven kids. 00:29:22.345 --> 00:29:28.244 Was there something that you did for good luck while you were in Vietnam? 00:29:28.244 --> 00:30:38.424 I tried to be good with the—oh, yeah—I always like people, you know, even though I'm not an Army type to be rough and tough. So I'm always being—what do you call that—I thought about the other people. Like, you know, I was a Sergeant in charge of a guard, and I tried to treat my, you know, my people with a lot of respect. Not treating my, you know—I never wanted to feel like I was in command. I feel more like I want to be their friend. So I used to bring them—when we were in the—we have like a guard duty. I was—because I was an NCO—I was in charge of the whole platoon that was in front on the foxholes and also in the shelters in the front of—we were guarding a big airfield in Cần Thơ. And I always brought them, you know, food, make sure they weren't sleepy at night and all that. So trying to make things easy on them. And that was the most rewarding thing to me, that they feel comfortable with me. So, they feel trusted, you know? 00:30:38.424 --> 00:30:44.845 Do you recall any particularly unusual events while you were in Vietnam? 00:30:44.845 --> 00:33:02.615 Yep. I'll never forget this one here. When I was in—we were supposed to guard an airfield in Cần Thơ. This was the landing pad. And we had all the Cobra helicopters (Bell AH-1 Cobra), so we had to protect all that area. But we were right in the front of the airfield, which was facing the jungle. And we have towers in there, and we have satellites on top—scopes. So I have a kid up there that was calling me that was scared. So, and then I went over there and it was raining. And it was raining so high that I almost got washed off. I didn't want to take the Jeep around it. So I left the Jeep. I had a Jeep, and I have all my—what do you call—black light. I mean, have all my, the lights down, you know, the—what do you call them? I forgot the name of—you keep all your lights on it on the—there's a switch, it turns the lights off, and they go into a nocturnal—what do you call—thing. So in case you cannot be seen. So I left the jeep behind, and I got in the—I started walking on it—and I almost got washed off in the perimeter in there to the barbed wire. I got up in there, and then somehow we got—started getting some sniper fire from the outside. And I had a kid on this tower—30 feet tall tower—and he—this guy jumped down and he didn't break his leg. He panic. He jumped from this tower. Would you believe that? I was scared too, because I was washed off. I almost lost my M16 because I carrying a weapon—and I carry also since Sergeant guard usually carries a .45 (.45 caliber handgun). And I said, I was glad that I made it. I mean, I just got to the barbed wire, held on until the water run—and I got up and I went and take a look at this kid that—he jumped all the way from 30 feet up, and he didn't break his legs. And I said, "Well, stay here. We're gonna stay here." And that was about the most scary thing that I ever had, you know? And this kid had jump, he panicked because they shot at him. He was shot—up in the tower. Instead of staying there—there was sandbags, but he was scared and he couldn't handle it. 00:33:02.615 --> 00:33:06.994 Could you tell me about the story of you sleeping on a truck? 00:33:06.994 --> 00:34:57.824 Well, when we got to our new base camp—from Northern Vietnam we went down to south—we end up in Cần Thơ and, we end up this—Cần Thơ was—at the airfield only, there was not pretty well established yet. So what they did—from the Mekong Delta, they used to suck up all the sand from the Mekong Delta and make a plateau. That was a basic base for the base camp—for this new landing strip. So there was absolutely nothing in there. So we end up in tents and it was raining. And the tents, you can't even walk inside because it was mud in the floor, and we have cots. So I decided to sleep in the—I slept in the in the Deuce-and-a-Half—that was my supply truck. And I spent in there three months sleeping in the truck. And I enjoyed it, because all the other people were on the—you know—wet tents and the floor—because we were—there was no floor. And I was sleeping in the truck in the front for three months. I slept in the Deuce. And that was tough. It was hard because it has a canvas—padding is canvas and metal. There's a thing in the middle. And there, I never forget it, It was my friendly thing. It was a metal piece that was hitting me in the back every night (laughs)—there was a division in between the two seats. And after that we slept until I left we have tents. And the plan was to build hooches, as they call 'em. You know, there were like, buildings on top of, you know, about a foot or two off the ground. And they were with mosquito nets. And that was another issue that mosquitoes will eat you alive. I had all these issues with them (laughs). Yeah, it was tough. 00:34:57.824 --> 00:35:06.525 So, towards the end of your service, do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:35:06.525 --> 00:36:08.000 I was in—I was a—still—they gave me—actually before my ending my service, they gave us two weeks off. But my two weeks off, I didn't have to do absolutely nothing. But I have to do one thing: guard duty. So I have to pull every day guard. That was a break. So I slipped—I could do whatever I wanna do during the daytime, but in the base camp, like in Cần Thơ, it was not too much to do. I mean, there was a little town in there. I didn't care too much about it to go to town. There was a—what is it called—the—my goodness, I forgot the name of the club for the Armed Forces, where they used to serve beer and hamburgers. And, they used to cook for us. And then that was in a little town. And that was the—oh my goodness, I can't remember—that was one of the services the Armed Forces provided for us. It was outside, like in a big town like Saigon, they will have like a—it's like a club— 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.755 —Like an enlisted club? 00:36:09.755 --> 00:36:45.065 Yeah. But it's—yes. Only for the Armed Forces. And they'll have, you know, drinks, like—not alcoholic—like coke, you could have a hamburger, and they have like a day room that you can probably sit and read. And that was the city of Cần Thơ. And that was one of the places—but I stayed mostly in the base camp. And when I was getting short, I became a little more coward because I want to live. So I didn't wanna expose myself too much. 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:45.844 Did you— 00:36:45.844 --> 00:36:58.585 —You know what I mean? I mean, it's not being a coward, it just self preservation. I say, if I survive this for so long, I want to be here. You know, I don't want to take a chance going to town and, you know, being a fool, you know? 00:36:58.585 --> 00:37:03.284 Did you return home or where did you go? 00:37:03.284 --> 00:37:41.275 When I—end the term of the service term, I end up in the San Francisco area. There was an Air Force base that we did the ETS, because that was the end of the term. And my plan was to go back to L.A.—Los Angeles—and, you know, finish my college—that was my first goal. And probably return home—I was born in Chile—to see my family that I didn't—I didn't see them for about six years. So that my first goal was to go there. 00:37:41.275 --> 00:37:46.684 What was it like for you when you stepped foot back in the United States in San Francisco? 00:37:46.684 --> 00:38:50.704 Oh, I was—well, people were kissing the ground, you know. They were, I saw it. The people, some GIs that went down on their feet. I saw them. All the ones that—there was a really bad attitude too. Most of the people didn't want to go back to their families, you know, I don't know why. That was really bad. I noticed that I—what are you gonna do? Because I met a lot of guys in there. They said, "Well, I don't want to go. I have some issue with my family." So some of them said, "What are you gonna do? I'm gonna stay in San Francisco—in here." And it was a really strange attitude. I can tell you. I mean, I said, "You're not close with them? You don't have no family?" "No, I don't get along with them," and so forth. So that was really sad to hear that. And some people—I don't know why—I guess the war makes you strange too. You know, people—I don't know—it was like a demise on everything. I know I want to see my family. That was the first thing. Because, you know, I was drafted outta college and I wanted—and I didn't see my parents for almost six years. They were in South America. They were in Chile. So I said that was my main goal: to go and see them. 00:38:50.704 --> 00:38:54.684 How were you received by your family and community upon returning? 00:38:54.684 --> 00:39:27.744 Oh my God—they wouldn't let me come back. Yeah, yeah. And I end up in summer in South America's. It's just beautiful, especially Chile—you know, we're a big family. So I end up—I didn't want to come back—but I said I got my things to do. So that was my—I spent about three months in Chile I think after—yeah, three, almost. And, but I want to come back. I wanna finish my school. My goal. That's my whole ideas—and do my thing in here, because I planned that since I was a kid. I always dream about to come here. 00:39:27.744 --> 00:39:32.804 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or go back to school? 00:39:32.804 --> 00:40:02.184 I went back to school and then I start—I went back to school at the beginning. Yes, I did go back to the—I got my GI Bill and I started going to, you know, finish my junior college. That was my first goal—and—which I did. And then, I liked the aerospace industry in defense, so that's what I—that was my goal, too—to go back to work for them. Which I did. 00:40:02.184 --> 00:40:07.264 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:40:07.264 --> 00:43:23.804 You know, I didn't. People were from other states—most of the people that was in Vietnam. I—in fact, it was really strange because I was in Torrance, California, and there was a—in Torrance, California, there's a lot of refineries, and there was a gas station that I used to go—I worked for a company called TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.), which we did, you know, defense contracts, aerospace, and all that. So this day I stop in this gas station, and guess what? I run in to one of people that I was in Vietnam. He was a mechanic in our motor pool. I used to go over there, and I teased him all the time—he and the sergeant—this guy was a redhead guy, I don't remember his name. And I said, "Do you remember me?" And I see he looked at me and I said, you remember such and such. And I asked him a question: "What happened to Cần Thơ?" I asked him. "Oh, we got a run in here in Tet Offensive. We did well." Because I left before the Tet Offensive. But there was not a—what do you call—there was not a contact. I said—I wish the guy would say, "Hey, let's get together or something." It was like, "Hey, see you now. See you later." You know, that was the only thing. So there was a lot of camaraderie when I was there. You know, people—in fact, when I was in Vietnam, you know what I did outta ammunition boxes? I helped to build a bar. I built a bar myself with a sergeant that, I can't remember his name. He was my protege. Big guy. He was from the south, like I said, again—and I hope I remember his name, to keep him in record because he was—he helped me a lot. So, our ammunition boxes for the Howitzers, we filled them up with sand and we built a bar. We built a building. We put a building. And I was—my skills, since I was supply, I used to go out and get the plywood. They used to have a plywood where they put the sorties when they put the ammo in the helicopter. They have two holes on the side. They brought probably six by six planks—you probably remember those (points at interviewer)—and then I did the roof with that. And then we got some—I guess—some plastic roofing from dealing with—I used to trade C-rations for all these items that we are speaking of. And there was some guy that knew a carpenter out of town in Cần Thơ. He built the bar out of the plywood we got. So we built a beautiful bar out of that. And I never forget that one. And in the front, we have a muzzle of a Howitzer. That was our—the symbol of artillery right in there, I never forget. I got pictures. I think I got the pictures. I don't think that I have the pictures, because I lost—all those pictures that I took in that area in Cần Thơ I lost in the camera that I bought. I lost I don't know how many rolls of film I lost, but I had a great time helping. And I have free drinking on that bar until I left. Would you believe that? (Toro laughs.) 00:43:23.804 --> 00:43:27.585 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:43:27.585 --> 00:46:51.704 No, I didn't. It kind of—you know, I think most of the people who came from Vietnam were kind of ostracized. You remember that? We kinda insulted. 'Cause I get insulted and you—like I mentioned over at—when I left Travis (Travis Air Force Base) up in San Francisco, some guy say something about, Are you the, you know, baby killers or something like that. Twice. I have that—another one in L.A. So sort of lost the—how would you say—the interest, you know? And I didn't want to know anybody. I never mentioned that I was in the Army until they recognized us. You know, people being more onto our side. I felt—I never spoke of it. You know, never even at work—people never. I never talked to my kids about anything. My wife (shakes his head), you know—I think most of the Vietnam veterans, we were sort of sour at the end. Because they got—I saw a lot of heroes. I saw amazing people. You won't believe it. I mean, like, you guys (points at interviewer), like my interviewer in here. You know that—you know—people—amazing. Amazing soldiers and especially infantry. Yeah. I can tell you some issues in there. You wouldn't believe it. There was an infantry unit in—I never forget this one. We were—I was in the—taking a—coming out of the shower, and we had this group of soldiers that came over. They were all infantry. And they have a baboon. This guy had a baboon—they have a monkey. And that monkey was a dog. And these guys were in the field, and these guys were so raggedy—you wouldn't believe it. These guy were like long range patrols. They were like—they called them LRRPs (long-range reconnaissance patrol). I don't know if you heard about them. It's a unit—I guess—and they go at nighttime. They go out of the base camps and they start doing search and destroy. So they see—because usually our base camp was surrounded by—you know, the Viet Cong was out there. And these guys had the monkey—this monkey, this baboon, it was like a dog. He held sense. Anybody moving—there was not—in fact, I remember approaching this monkey, and the NCO told me, Don't get close, he'll get you. It was a great baboon. It's a monkey. And that was a dog—guard dog for these people. It was amazing. And these people were attached. They were not attached to our—the 25th Infantry division that I belonged to—they were not. They were like a bastard battalion. And so they were doing all this reconnaissance, and they were amazing, these people. I can—you know—there were some—there were some good soldiers. And we came back for the really—most of them came back with a really bad attitude, because we were treated like, you remember—I don't know if you guys know—probably we treated a little like we didn't—we were not wanted. Yeah. But they recognized us—luckily—later on, they recognized us—you know, Vietnam veterans. But most of them, they really—we were really sour, all of the ones that I knew. So I hide my identity. Yeah, I was in the army, but I never mentioned that. What do you call that? I was—that I served in Vietnam and so forth. And people didn't care really. You know, the new generation. My kids never ask me until later on about what that—what you did, what you went through. 00:46:51.704 --> 00:46:58.284 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:46:58.284 --> 00:48:27.875 I makes—I think of, you know—at the beginning after coming out, you know, you don't have a sense of pride. You became—you have a sense of pride after people recognize you. That's the only problem. You feel more guilty—you know—at the beginning when you get out because, you know, we not recognized. So there was an effort, you know, for them to say, "Hey, you know, thanks for your service." I started getting the thanks for your service later on in life, you know—way back. And mostly the people that approached me were veterans. You know, that they told us that. People—you know, the American soldiers are amazing. I tell you that—what I saw in Vietnam. To survive all that junk we went through and then not be recognized—and then left the country like that. That's the thing. It hurts the most, you know, being like treated the way they treated the people. They—you know—people like the soldiers—the American soldiers, I mean—the kids were great, but the attitude—the outside attitude was really bad. It was really bad toward us. And that's what it really hurt—a lot of people. I mean, we were doing what the country ask you for, you know, but they—you go and serve and do the best you can, and then you come all out like we were—actually, you remember My Lai (The My Lai massacre) and all that—like we were criminals. 00:48:27.875 --> 00:48:33.405 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:48:33.405 --> 00:49:20.554 I guess the friendship. There's a lot of friendship, you know, in there. Sometimes you don't feel like all by yourself. You know, that. And also it used a little discipline, because there was a lot of kids when I was in the army—I was in Fort Ord—that they were in trouble with the law somehow. And they were near serving because of that. You know, in my training unit in Fort Ord, they were a lot of kids that were—what they call them—Cat 4?. They have a name—I think category four. So these guys were—somehow they have some trouble with the law. So they have a choice either to serve or to end up in jail. And they were young kids. They were not adults—you know, in the eighteens. Yeah. 00:49:20.554 --> 00:49:29.005 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:49:29.005 --> 00:50:04.465 Oh, the experience teach you—I learned one thing that—to survive, that's the thing. You have to survive. And you know, when you are in the war and you're—and you have to serve—you have to survive. And there's not too much you can do. And what you can do for yourself is be yourself. Because nobody else—when you're in a situation—as my interviewer knows too—at this point I'm gonna use that as—you are the only one in there. You. And you can't count on anybody else. 00:50:04.465 --> 00:50:05.000 How did—(Toro and Beyer accidentally speak simultaneously.) 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:05.989 —Excuse me— 00:50:05.989 --> 00:50:06.000 Sorry. 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:26.704 You can't count on anybody else, but you know that you're supported. But that is your life at stake in there. I mean, you're the only one that can—you know, you don't know what is gonna happen in that moment. I mean, you look for the risk, but the only things you think at that time are you, you know? How you gonna react to this? That's what I'm trying to say. 00:50:26.704 --> 00:50:33.125 How did you become associated with the San Marcos community? 00:50:33.125 --> 00:50:51.295 Well, was through my neighbor, Jason. He brought me to this in here, because I never thought I was gonna be interviewed. He's a former also gallant Armed Forces. He served many conflicts. 00:50:51.295 --> 00:51:05.074 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:51:05.074 --> 00:52:18.074 Well, like I said, I wish if I could remember the names, but there's a lot of—you know, I think I had a—at the beginning, you know, in basic training, I made a lot of good friends. You know, and then they departed all their ways. I don't remember their names, but I have some pictures that you have—some other records in there. I think my interviewer has a picture of it. He was a—great people. I met some fine people. And when I was in Fort Ord, I did—and when I was also overseas and in Vietnam, I did meet a lot of people who had a lot of fun—especially on night times in our hooch—(laughs)—when they have the beer parties in there, and we used to—what do you call the, you know—I was very conservative. I don't gamble. And so I used to send all my money to my bank in L.A.—(laughs)—all the little that I earned. But the other—my older friends that used to love—they used do to a lot of gambling in there. My God, it was amazing. They have a lot of fun in between the beers and the—we had a lot of great time in the Hooch. That was the best time in the—the comradery. Yeah. In Vietnam. Yeah, there was a lot of that. And the biggest gamblers were the cooks—(laughs)—that's what I remember. 00:52:18.074 --> 00:52:23.684 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:52:23.684 --> 00:52:29.295 What they going through. Yeah. What they going through. 00:52:29.295 --> 00:52:31.005 Could you elaborate on that? 00:52:31.005 --> 00:53:55.985 I mean, the do's and don'ts. The way you lose your freedom. You're not anymore in charge you of your future. I mean, someone else got your hands on. So that was my only thing—you know—you gotta serve and you're not an instrument, but you are a tool—you know, to help, I guess, the conflict. But they—you don't have too much to say. Some people are—they're born to be a soldier and—you know—and they're strong. And some people, they're a little in between. They're more—I guess, a pacifier—pacifist. And those are the ones that have a hard time. But they all serve. And that is a—that is a difficult time. I mean, for the people that don't have the—even though if you're brave, you have your feelings. I mean, you know, when danger is—your life at a stake—you know, the bravery, it counts—but you know that, Hey, I gotta survive this one. And some people are a little weak, and those are the ones that suffer. And they have to be protected because they're not meant to serve, but they served. And I see a lot of people like that. They served and they were—they—I mean—they were not happy they were doing—but they served. 00:53:55.985 --> 00:54:05.445 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:54:05.445 --> 00:55:20.735 Well, they teach you—I think they make you more independent too—I think. But being independent is very difficult. You know, after my two years, I didn't know what to do because I've been always, you know, four square meals a day. So I have a little conflict in there. So you gotta get out of that one and say, What am I gonna do now that I'm outside. But I already was outside, you know? I was drafted when I was already working and I had my own—so I have my goals. So I think for younger people it's more difficult. They were 18 and they—they have some conflict—that's why they end up in the armed forces—and they'll be very difficult to readjust. And those are the ones that I saw. And when I left the Armed Services and I was up in my ETS—end of the term of my service—they didn't know what to do with themselves. Yeah. That was one of the things that I was really sad. And I was more mature, I guess—my age. I was 25 when I left. I was 24 when I got drafted—26 I got—actually, I'm sorry I'm changing. It was almost 27 when I end my—my ETS was 27. So I was a little more mature, so I see the weight—but those people, they have a very difficult time to adjust. I know that. 00:55:20.735 --> 00:55:22.445 Thank you for your time today. 00:55:22.445 --> 00:55:23.945 Okay, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-073 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961–1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lucy Wheeler Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George and Alethea Nagata OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Nagata, George and Alethea. Interview November 16, 2022 SC027-33 1:06:45 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Japanese Americans Japanese Americans -- Forced removal and internment, 1942-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Concentration camps -- Arizona -- Yuma Poston Relocation Center (Ariz.) Agricultural laborers -- California Agricultural laborers -- Colorado Family farms -- California George and Alethea Nagata Lucy Wheeler mp4 NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.mp4 1.0:|23(9)|31(10)|38(15)|46(5)|53(9)|60(9)|67(11)|74(13)|94(17)|112(5)|133(12)|154(7)|161(3)|168(7)|179(6)|193(13)|209(14)|226(10)|233(13)|244(13)|251(14)|258(9)|272(15)|283(9)|296(17)|307(12)|314(18)|332(7)|342(5)|350(6)|364(15)|379(16)|390(7)|407(7)|415(5)|451(4)|463(3)|475(5)|483(12)|490(14)|499(14)|507(7)|518(12)|525(10)|554(7)|562(4)|583(9)|600(6)|612(9)|620(12)|627(10)|646(17)|657(3)|670(4)|677(13)|689(10)|698(9)|721(15)|757(4)|788(7)|808(6)|818(15)|826(9)|841(7)|853(9)|872(8)|930(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c63c2f7309ad26fa08b81a49964676b7.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Family backgrounds George and Alethea Nagata explain their family backgrounds. They are both second generation Japanese-American citizens. George Nagata was born in Gardena, CA in 1924. He explains that his father immigrated to the United States from the city of Kumamoto, Japan around 1900. He moved around the country working various jobs, including in farming. His parents married around 1920, and the family had a farm by the time George was born. The family later moved to Torrance, CA and then to Bellflower, CA in order find better farming conditions.&#13 ; &#13 ; Althea Nagata was born in 1926. Her parents moved around California during her early childhood, living in Orange County, Bonsall, and San Luis Rey. Her father became involved in farming after immigrating to the U.S. from Japan in 1905 and settling in Orange County, where he began growing peppers. Arizona ; Bellflower (Calif.) ; Bonsall (Calif.) ; Farming ; Gardena (Calif.) ; Immigration ; Kumamoto, Japan ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Melons ; Orange County (Calif.) ; Peppers ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey (Calif.) ; Seattle (Wash.) ; Second-generation Japanese American citizens ; Strawberries ; Texas ; Torrance (Calif.) 0 650 George Nagata’s education/ The family farm George Nagata recounts his school years as a teenager. Nagata explains that due to financial difficulties and his father’s ill health, his family was forced to commute throughout Southern California throughout his high school years, which interrupted his schooling. He was also registered at two different high schools including a school in Oceanside, CA. He also explains that his mother took over the farming duties due to his father’s health. The family harvested strawberries and Italian squash and sold the produce to the San Francisco market. Education ; Farming ; High school ; Italian squash ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Squash ; Strawberries ; Student 0 1007 George Nagata’s internment/ Work in Chicago George Nagata recounts his time at the Poston War Relocation Center, located in Yuma County, AZ. Nagata was only sixteen years old when his family was removed and interred starting May 15, 1942. He recalls the dark train ride and internees having to stuff their own mattresses with straw upon arrival to the camp. He was interned at Poston for a little over a year before leaving for Chicago, IL with a friend. He worked in Chicago in an auto mechanic shop for about four of five months before his family was released from Poston. Nagata explains that he and his family met one another again in Colorado in order to continue farm work. He farmed in Colorado for a man who owned an onion seed company. Nagata explains that he was never paid for his work. He remained in Colorado until 1944 or 1945 when he moved back to California. Auto mechanic ; Auto repair ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Colorado ; Farming ; Internees ; Internment ; Japanese internment ; Onion seed ; Santa Fe (NM.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; World War Two World War 2 Poston War Relocation Center ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 1510 George Nagata returns to California George Nagata discusses his return to Vista, CA after working in Colorado. He recounts moving into a friend’s avocado grove and stayed in a room that was converted from a chicken coop. In 1945, they found thirty acres of land that they were able to lease for a year before buying the property in order to begin farming. Nagata recalls that they originally lived on a tent on the property because there were no houses in the area. Avocado grove ; Chicken coop ; Colorado ; Farming ; Vista (Calif.) 0 1662 Alethea Nagata’s internment Alethea Nagata recounts her time at the Poston War Relocation Center located in Yuma County, AZ. She explains how her father rented land and raised strawberries in Rancho Santa Margarita. She recalls after the war broke out, her father and grandfather were arrested by the FBI and were sent to the San Diego jail before being transferred to Topanga, CA. Eventually, their entire family was sent to the Poston concentration camp. Nagata was in high school at the time of her internment. Nagata explains that her family did not experience the same harsh conditions that her husband’s family experienced. Although the Nagata’s families were both interned at Poston, the couple met after the war. Their families were also placed in different blocks at Poston. Arrest ; Farming ; FBI ; Internees ; Internment ; Japanese internment ; Poston War Relocation Center ; Rancho Santa Margarita (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Strawberries ; Topanga (Calif.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 1912 Alethea Nagata returns to California Alethea Nagata discusses returning to California after internment. She explains that her family was split up after their release from the Poston camp: her father and grandfather were sent to New Mexico, while the rest of the family returned to North County San Diego. It is unclear from the interview, but it can be inferred that her father and grandfather eventually made their way back to North County as well by 1945. Alethea Nagata’s family farm was left in the care of Escondido High School’s Vice Principal Mr. Grave and other caretakers until they could return home. Escondid High School ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Farming ; Lordsburg (NM.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Poston War Relocation Center ; San Luis Rey (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Santa Fe (NM.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 2122 Education in internment/ George Nagata’s early career in farming George and Alethea Nagata discuss their education while in the concentration camps. They explain that while Alethea was able to graduate in the Poston camp, George did not have the opportunity to go to school. George Nagata also explains that when he applied to night school in Chicago, the institution did not consider Poston an accredited school and told him he would have to start his education over before applying to their program. George Nagata also discusses how he began his career in farming. He explains the challenges he faced in obtaining and paying back loans for his supplies, and how weather conditions ruined his crops. He also describes how they later invested in a strawberry freezer business, which also led to other financial challenges for the farm. Education ; Fallbrook (Calif.) ; Farming ; Freezer business ; Loans ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Night School ; Poston War Relocation Center ; Strawberries ; Student ; Ventura (Calif.) ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII ; Yuma County (AZ.) 0 2664 Alethea Nagata’s family farm/ Early experimentation on crops Alethea Nagata discusses her family farm in San Marcos, CA. Alethea Nagata describes her family’s farming business, which was led by her father, and later taken over by her brothers. The family grew crops such as asparagus, chili peppers, romaine lettuce, tomatoes, and strawberries. She explains that her family also grew cauliflower, which was not a money-making crop, but it helped to maintain workers. Nagata also recounts her father teaching her to drive a Caterpillar and her sister driving trucks around the farm. She reflects how she and her two sisters were involved on the farm and how her father respected women. &#13 ; &#13 ; George Nagata also explains how he worked with Althea’s Uncle Fred to encourage the experimentation on berries. They were involved in organizations such as the Farm Bureau and the Bracero program. He also recalls how they travelled to U.C. Davis to encourage the university in developing a new variety of berries that would be suitable for Southern California. They eventually went to the Legislature and asked one of the representatives to pass a budget which would allow farmers to experiment on new varieties of strawberries. George and Alethea also explain how they met on a blind date set up by Alethea’s Uncle Fred. &#13 ; Asparagus ; Bracero program ; Cauliflower ; Chili peppers ; Davis (Calif.) ; Experimentation on berries ; Farm Bureau ; Farming ; Romaine lettuce ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Strawberries ; Tomatoes ; Truck driving ; U.C. Davis ; World War 2 ; World War II ; World War Two ; WWII 0 3211 Growth and diversity of crops George Nagata discusses the growth and diversity of crops in farming. He explains that growth and diversity began to improve when experimentation was granted in Southern California. The experiment transferred from the USDA property, to a plot in Orange County, before eventually finding home on Irvine Ranch. They developed various varieties of strawberries during the experiment. Crops ; Experimentation on berries ; Farming ; Growth and diversity of crops ; Irvine Ranch ; Orange County (Calif.) ; Strawberries ; USDA 0 3400 Farming blueberries and cherimoyas The Nagatas discuss growing blueberries and cherimoyas on their farm. They explain how labor-intensive it can be to harvest cherimoyas ; that although it is easy to grow cherimoyas in the Southern California climate, the fruit has to be hand-pollinated. Blueberries ; Cherimoyas ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Hand-pollination ; Innovation in farming ; Oceanside (Calif.) 0 3565 Future of farming The Nagatas discuss the future of farming. They explain that farmers face many difficulties in succeeding in the market due to today’s political climate. They reflect on many issues such as the water rationing, changes to the global market, and competition. California laws ; Farming ; Future of farming ; Global market ; Market competition ; Political climate ; Politics ; Specialty crops ; Water rationing 0 Oral history Oral History of 2nd generation (George and Alethea Nagata) who represent four generations of Japanese Americans contributing to the agricultural industry of North County San Diego, California. During their interview the Nagatas discuss their family history, their forced internments at Poston Relocation Center in Yuma, Arizona during World War II, their lives post-internment, and their working lives as agricultural laborers and family farmers. The Nagatas discuss their operations in detail and muse on the future of farming in the United States. Lucy Wheeler: Today is November 16th, 2022, on behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative Project. We’re here at the Nagata Farm, in Oceanside bordering on Fallbrook and Bonsall. My name is Lucy Wheeler, and let’s go inside and meet them! (Lucy is initially on a balcony or deck, then moves inside to meet the Nagatas) Lucy Wheeler: Good morning. George and Alethea Nagata (both nod) Good morning. Wheeler: It’s so nice to be here, and I’d like to introduce you to our audience. Um, on our left we have Mr. George Nagata. George Nagata: Yep. (nodding) Wheeler: And Alethea Nagata, Nagata. (Mrs. Nagata nods) Um, they are second generation of four generations— George Nagata: (nodding) Yes, correct. Wheeler: —and we would love to hear your story, about how your families came to America, to the United States, and mostly just about how you’ve managed to live to your age. So let’s begin by where you were born, and what year, and then just briefly an introduction about how your ancestors came here. It’s your story, but predominantly setting the stage with your history. Do you want to go first, George? George Nagata: Alright. I was born in Gardena, California, in 1924, April 24th. Um, um, my father came over in about 1900, from, uh, a city of Kumamoto, Japan, which is in the south, southern Japan. And, uh, the family were, uh—they loaned money and, loan sharks I guess you’d call ‘em. And, um, they were pretty well off, and they would, uh, uh, have the rice as a collateral for the loaner to bring in. So, they would pile up a lot of rice and, and then they couldn’t pay, they took the rice. But they didn’t know what to do with it. So, after a while they decided to start a sake factory, and they progressed in it, and, and they were pretty well off. Uh, my father just went to school, and, and in fact he graduated from university and he was well educated for, um, people at that time. And so when he―he said that he used to get up in the morning and he had nothing to do so he would go out hunting for birds and he would bring it home, and, and eat those birds. But he got tired of it, and he wanted a, a more adventurous so he decided to come to United States and at first he landed in, uh, uh, Seattle, then came to San Francisco, and he went to night school there and he was a house boy for some old people. And, uh, uh, he didn’t—he learned his English, so he went into various business because if he needed money he would just send a letter to Japan. They would send him money to do whatever he wanted to do. So, he did some farming of cotton in Arizona, and then in Texas. But he wasn’t successful. He said he went to work for a railroad, and uh, and, uh, uh, in Arizona, and uh after a while he said he got tired of that. So, he, uh, come down to Los Angeles and he was just moaning around and doing a little farm work for people and I guess he did some joint venture with other people. But, he wasn’t successful so he decided at age, about, uh, forty-eight, he thought “Oh, I’m getting old. I’d better go find a bride!” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) So, he went to Japan and married my mother, and they came over in about 1920. And their first child was born in, in 1921, but only lived for nine months. She had diphtheria and she died. And so, next child was myself. In 1924, I was born, and my father bought a, a farm from some friend who was, uh, uh,―made enough money to go back to Japan. So, my father bought this farm, and they were working it, but they weren’t that successful. So, um, they decided to move from Gardena to Torrance and I was about four years old, and, and, and my mother would take the uncooked rice and they’d build a little pot, a fireplace, and then they, they asked me to watch them so that a fire won’t go out and I, I kept feeding the wood in there to keep the uh, rice cooked. By 12 o’clock the rice was ready, We would have a lunch. And then my mother would go back to work. And, uh, from Torrance, uh, we farmed there for about three years and my dad decided to go to Heinz, which is uh, uh, near Bellflower, California. And we were, uh, farming there and he planted uh, uh, strawberries and some melons and I was about six or seven years old. And dad would say that “I’m going to teach you how to drive a horse.” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) So he made a little sled, and, and he wanted me to pick the melon and put it in this box, and haul it back to the shed, so he could pack it. And I did that for a while. But, you know, being so young that I, I wanted to play! I did not want to work. (chuckles) Uh, he used to tell me “You gotta help me.” And, my brother Harry was born in 1925 (turns his head towards his wife) and that was in, um, Torrance, and— Wheeler: Let’s, uh— George Nagata: And uh, huh? (turns to look at his wife) Wheeler: Oh, I was just going to say, let’s let her tell her part up to that point. George Nagata: Okay. Wheeler: And then we’ll connect how you met each other. So, tell us about your— Alethea Nagata: I was born in Bonsall, California. Wheeler: Very close! Alethea Nagata: October 15th, 1926. And my parents had moved from, from Orange County to Bonsall, to change a little bit of their f—their, you know—to a new land, sort of. And so that’s where we, um, settled for a while. And then, uh, he moved to San Luis Rey where he started farming again. Wheeler: What were your parents’ name? Alethea Nagata: Wor Tasuke and Kane Yaskochi Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And (clears her throat) they were both married already in Japan in about 1919. And they, they came to America separately. My father came about 1920 with his father, and my mother came about a year—I believe, about a year or so later. And, uh, they settled in Orange County. Wheeler: And your father was here in—what year did you say? 1920? Alethea Nagata: About 1920. Wheeler: But his father— Alethea Nagata: Was here earlier. Wheeler: Earlier. Alethea Nagata: He arrived in the U.S. 1905, right after the San Francisco earthquake. And that’s where their journey sort of began. And he―um, my grandfather did various jobs along the way, and then―in 1905―and then he landed in Orange County, where there were, a few, I believe, a few Japanese already there. And so, he started the, the growing peppers. Wheeler: And became the Pepper King? Alethea Nagata: Well, (smiles) that’s what they called him. Wheeler: (laughs) Alethea Nagata: Anyway, that was sort of the beginning of the peppers. Wheeler: Very good. Well, how did you two meet? George Nagata: Well, uh, that was after, after the World War II. Well, uh— Wheeler: So, it’s a substantial difference then— George Nagata: yea, (nods) Wheeler: —in the time that you came and when you met. Alethea Nagata: Yes! Well this was after the war, so— Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: So, there— Wheeler: In the, in the interim, tell us where you went to school then, um. Were you in school in, um? George Nagata: Oh, I was a, a, in school in, in, Oceanside, before evacuation. The problem was that, uh, when we moved to Oceanside in 1940, my father got sick, yeah. We were building a house so we could move to Oceanside from Bellflower, California where he had farmed, and I was about fifteen years old. And he was building his house and then he said “I got a backache, and it’s really bad.” So, I took him to a doctor, and the doctor says “I can’t help you.” He said “You gotta go to a specialist.” And, uh, we were, uh, uh, broke because we just moved and we put all the money into building the house and, and preparing the land and so, uh, my dad went to the doctor and they found out he had pleurisy and so they put him in the hospital and uh, uh, he was in the hospital for three months! And, uh, we had to commute from Oceanside to the Los Angeles every day. So, my mother said “Let’s, uh, live with a friend in Los Angeles where it’s closer to see dad.” So, we, uh, my mother and I went to live with this friend of our family and we commuted to the hospital every night from there. From Downey to Los Angeles. And so, I was living in Downey, so I had to still go to school, so I registered at Downey High and went to school there a while. But, before we moved—when we moved to Oceanside, I started school in Oceanside and went about a month, or a month and a half to Oceanside. Then I transferred back to Downey and then once my dad got out of the hospital I went back to Oceanside and my dad couldn’t work. So, my mother did all the work. And, uh, I went back to Oceanside but my studies all messed up because of moving all the time, and, uh, so— Wheeler: Were you farming at the time? George Nagata: No, um, my mother was doing the farming. But we helped out as much as possible. We were absolutely broke! When my dad got sick, it cost us a lot of money to take care of him. So, we were—so, my mother had to go see friends to borrow money from them, because we couldn’t get any money. We didn’t have any property, anything to— We had an old automobile and an old truck, (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) so— Wheeler: What kind of farming did you do, what—? George Nagata: Uh, just had five acres of strawberries. Wheeler: Oh! That’s exciting. George Nagata: With strawberries, you plant the first year, and take the runner, and plant the runner, so you don’t harvest till second year! So, when we were farming there the first year, we planted a little bit of Italian squash, and we sold it to San Francisco, because the market was better there, and that’s how we were able to feed ourselves, and also, we went to work for other farmers. We did a bit of harvesting, but they, uh, wanted me to drive a horse with a cultivator— Wheeler: (laughs) George Nagata: —because my dad taught me how to do it, and they needed a person to drive the horse. So, I was assigned to do that every day! I had to harness the horse and get the cultivator, and cultivate the crop! Wheeler: And now, how, how old were you then when the second world war started? George Nagata: Well, I was sixteen. Wheeler: And tell us a little bit about—since you had not met each other at that time— George Nagata: No, no— Alethea Nagata: Not yet. George Nagata: No— Wheeler: Tell me how you— George Nagata: No, that was before the war. Now, uh, come May, I think about the 15th of May of 1942, we were evacuated. We were ordered to go to the Santa Fe Train Depot, and load, get on this train. And so, they said that you could only take two suitcases each. And so, we went and bought a suit—suitcase for each of us. And, and we packed up our suitcase. We went to the train depot and we boarded a train in the morning, and they had NPs on the train. They wouldn’t let us open the window or anything. It’s all shaded. And we didn’t know where we were going. And about three o’clock in the afternoon, uh, we went and the train stopped in Barstow, and they gave us a sandwich so that, you know, then we continued to Poston, Arizona. And when we got to Arizona, they put us on a bus and transported us to the concentration camp, and at first we had to stuff the mattress with straw because there was nothing there. They had to make―we got there at 8:30, 9 o’clock at night and we had to make our own bed. They gave us a cot and for each of us and so we went to sleep, and— Wheeler: How long were you there? (clears her throat) George Nagata: We were—Well, I was, I myself, was there only for a little over a year. And I, I was a, a—my friend said―he was going to Chicago―“Don’t you wanna go to Chicago?” I said “Yeah, I’ll call along, tag along with you, because I don’t know the country. I want to go.” So, I went to Chicago myself, with this friend and I, I learned how to be a auto mechanic, because I worked in the shop. There is a lot of people who were experienced mechanics and they taught me how to do all this repair. So, we had a full garage and all these people would teach me. So I was pretty confident that I could make a living. So, I went to Chicago and got a job as a mechanic. And, and I worked there for about four or five months, and, uh, my dad said that they gotta leave the camp, because they’re asking everybody to leave. So, my dad says “Meet me in Colorado. I’m going to see if we could do a little farming there.” So, um, I gave my job up and I went to Grand Junction, Colorado, and my father―the reason my father said that we could do some farming was because his nephew was from Hawaii and Santa Fe, New Mexico in a concentration camp, and his assets were frozen because he was an enemy Asian. But that money will be released if you want it for farming, and he said you’ll loan us the money, whatever you want. So, he said that he could come and live on the farm with us. So, my dad took him up on it, and we borrowed the money from him, and we started a little farm and I went to work for some man that owned a seed company. And he said “Why don’t you farm for me?” And he said “Go drive a tractor.” Well, I never drove a tractor, but anyway he says “You know how to drive?” I says “Yeah, I know how to drive.” So, I went there then he looked at me and he said “You don’t know how to drive.” Wheeler: (laughs) How long were you in Colorado? George Nagata: I was in Colorado ‘til 1944. From say ’43 to ’44, was it ’45 that I came to California? (turns to his wife) Alethea Nagata: (starts to laugh, as does Linda) I think so. I’m not sure what happened with you. George Nagata: We were farming and this man who owned this seed company was a crook. We never, I never got paid for working for him or then he said that if could grow some onion seed, that’s (unclear) to England, and he said “I’ll pay you for growing that thing.” And when it come to the end, we harvested it and gave him the seed, and I never seen a dime of it. Wheeler: Oh my! (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) George Nagata: And I asked the farmer that was next door who was also a evacuee that come out of a concentration camp to do a little farming. There was about five or six together and they were farming and, uh, they grew the onion seed for him. There was four or five other farmers. They said “Oh, that’s a good deal.” They all grew onion seed. And the company in England sent a check directly to those farmers. And the guy in the seed company, he really got mad and he said “They were supposed to pay me. And they said that if I sent it direct, that I was supposed to get a commission.” And my friend says “Okay, I’ll pay you commission, whatever you want.” He says “No, that won’t do.” He says “I want the check and that’s the only way I’ll accept it.” So everybody took the check and signed it and gave it to him, and they didn’t see a dime! (shrugs his shoulders incredulously and laughs) Wheeler: Oh. Wow! George Nagata: They said “We were stupid, because there’s no recourse because we signed (gestures with both hands to indicate signing a document) off the check.” (raises hands to indicate giving something up) So, uh, and this guy had a big farm in, uh, in Gilroy, California. And all my friend says is “Hey, forget it.” He says “You’re not going to get paid,” and sure enough― Wheeler: So, you left and came back to California, then? George Nagata: So, uh, after the war, we were allowed to come back to California, so I came to California to see how we could get back and where we could go. And, a friend of ours, uh, had a friend in Vista and he was a doctor and he―they own an avocado grove, and there was a house on it with a little shack there that was a chicken coop converted into a room. So, when we moved to California, he said “Stay in this chicken coop for a while.” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) So, what we did―we just―I loaded the truck up and a little pickup and we brought all of our stuff over. And we lived in the chicken coop and we were looking for land where we could farm a lease. We don’t have enough money to buy any property, so we, uh, uh, found, uh, uh, thirty acres of land that he wanted to sell. But, he said “I tell you what I’ll do. I’ll lease, lease it to you, uh, and, uh, you have to buy the property after one year.” So, we decided we’d better go ahead and get that land. So, we went there. There’s no house or anything. So, we put up a tent and lived in the tent and the houses were hard to get because right after the war there was nothing. There was a pre-hab house that was on sale. It’s not made out of, uh, wood. It’s, it’s, uh, the wood is hemlock, but it’s more of a composition material and we bought that and put it together and we lived in this house. And then, uh― Wheeler: This was in 1945? George Nagata: (nods) 1945. Wheeler: Okay. Let’s stop and, and have Alethea tell us about what― Alethea Nagata: Well, so this is, this is before the camp. Wheeler: Right. Alethea Nagata: And my father was―had a farm in Rancho Santa Margarita. He rented land. That was before it was turned into Camp Pendleton. And, (clears her throat) and he was raising strawberries there. And that’s when the, um, when the war broke out and the FBI picked him up there, um, in Rancho Santa Margarita. Well, he was living in San Luis Rey, but he was going back and forth to Santa Margarita. He rented the property from Rancho Santa Margarita, from a gentleman named Whitman. (clears throat) And, uh, uh, (clears throat) and then, um, he was―the FBI came to this ranch Santa Margarita and picked him up. And I was in San Marcos, living with my grandparents. And that’s where they picked up my grandfather, the same day. Wheeler: Was this Kiso? Alethea Nagata: Yes, Kiso. And they took my father and Kiso to the San Diego jail, and they stayed overnight there. And then (clears throat), and then they transferred them to a, I believe it’s a Tohanga, California, in Los Angeles. And so, we as a family were able to go and see them. And that’s where our journey, uh, begins with our family getting ready to go to camp. ‘Cuz I was going to Escondido High School, and then, uh, because the war had broken out, we, uh, we had to, uh, go to get ready to go to camp. And my uncle was trying to decide whether to move our whole family to Colorado because, uh, as long as you’re not on the west coast, you could, you could, uh, you know, farm, uh, in Colorado, or probably in the Midwest. But, my father, uh, said not to go, but to go to camp. So that’s what we did. We all got to, got ready to go to camp. Wheeler: And where was the― Alethea Nagata: And we ended up in Poston. Wheeler: Oh. Alethea Nagata: Um, my experience was not, uh, as, as harsh as his (points to Mr. Nagata), because, um, other family members had gone a little earlier and did the beds and things. So, um, I didn’t―I―my grandmother wasn’t in very good condition. So, we probably went a couple of days later. And so, uh, the cots and things, the ones that went first, you know, got theirs, or got it ready for us. So, we―we ended up in Camp One in Poston, Arizona and I believe you ended up in Poston (turning her head to look at Mr. Nagata), but in a different, uh― Wheeler: Different section? Alethea Nagata: Block. They were broken up into blocks. Wheeler: So, you had quite an experience before you’d even gotten married and established your― Alethea Nagata: Oh, yes! (laughing) Wheeler: ―careers in farming. Um, tell us about when you were allowed to come back. What changed your lives after that, besides getting married and meeting each other? Alethea Nagata: Well, my father and grandfather were sent to, uh, to Santa Fe, New Mexico and Lordsburg, New Mexico. They were in different facilities from us. They were, uh―my grandfather was released earlier than my father, was sent to the Poston camp where we were. And then my father was released, uh, I believe about 1944, and, um, and he came back to Poston. But, uh, in the meantime, we were living separately. Wheeler: Yes. Um, when you came back then, where did―when you came back, where did you―? You probably came back to Oceanside? George Nagata: (nods) We came back to Oceanside. Wheeler: And who― Alethea Nagata: My, my father and uh, uncle, and uh, my grandfather’s place was in San Marcos. Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And my father had a place in San Luis Rey. And so, uh, his―his farm―we left the farm in, um―my grandfather’s farm was left in charge of a vice principal of Escondido High School. And he, he took over and―and we hired a, a family man to come in and oversee the place. And, uh, they lived in my grandfather’s house. There was a main house and then there was a kitchen area. And so, the people who, uh, the vice principal hired was a―well their name was Tarbutton. (laughs) I remember the name. And um―uh, the kitchen area was a―was a fairly large, and so the family was able to live there. And the main house, uh, was left, just left. And, uh, so when we came back from camp, that’s where we fir―we landed in San Marcos where my grandfather’s place. And my father had returned from camp just, just a―(shakes her head and tries to speak) when he was able, they were allowed to come back. So, he came back by himself with, I believe, my uncle’s wife and, and they planted, um, zucchini, I believe, some kind of a early crop. So, then he, then he, then he came back to Poston and picked us up. So, then we all came back later, just a little bit later. 1945. Wheeler: Wow. So, you were just― Alethea Nagata: But we do have, we had a place to―at least we had a home. Wheeler: Yes. Alethea Nagata: Yeah. And, uh― Wheeler: Exactly. Alethea Nagata: Mr. Grave, the vice principal, uh, took care of everything for us. So that was very nice. Wheeler: So, when did you graduate from high school, then? Alethea Nagata: I graduated in camp. Wheeler: Oh, did you? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. George Nagata: Well, I didn’t get to go to school. Wheeler: Okay, that―and that was probably not uncommon. George Nagata: Yeah. Wheeler: So, then actually― Alethea Nagata: And it wasn’t accepted either, or― George Nagata: So, when I was in Chicago, I wanted to go to night school. And I applied there, and they said that, that concentration camp I was in was not an acclaimed school, so you’re going to have to start over again. So, I says “Oh, I can’t start over again.” (both he and Wheeler laugh) So, uh, I didn’t get any education at all. Wheeler: No, but sometimes it’s not just all education in the school. So, what happened then after ’45 that you came back and started again? George Nagata: Uh, it was very tough (shaking his head). We didn’t have any equipment, and so, so (cell phone starts to ring). Excuse me. (reaches into pocket for cell phone) I don’t know who is calling. (looks at screen, and shakes his head) Scam! (Wheeler and Alethea Nagata laugh) George Nagata: So, when we got back to California, um, I went to the bank to borrow money and they laughed at me and said “You know, to tell you the truth, I’m not loaning you my money. He says “The bank has a depositor. They all deposit the money, and I’m responsible for it. So, I gotta have a collateral, whatever you own. But, I don’t own a thing, ‘cuz I can’t loan you any money.” So, in order for us to farm, we had to have a little bit of backing and so, uh, the L.A. produce market was loaning money to the growers, to advance the money, and they get all the produce. So, we borrowed the money from them, and started growing and sometimes it pays, and sometimes it doesn’t, because the market was, you know, some oversupply of tomatoes and things. And I would go over there and I would borrow money from, uh, for uh, buy fertilizer on credit. And they would just loan me the money, and one company there, I owed about three thousand dollars, and they wanted to get paid. I said “I don’t have any money right now. So, can you wait?” But what happened was that I planted, uh, twenty acres of strawberries and it was ready to harvest when I got hailed out. Because all the hail was just deforming the whole plant. And never produced a single berry! And so, I had all this money tied up into strawberries. And I can’t harvest anything. And the supply companies, this was, uh, uh, the fertilizer and insecticide I bought, I couldn’t pay for it. So, they wanted to sue me. And they reported it to the Credit Bureau that I haven’t paid for one year and they’re going to, uh, to file a lawsuit against me. And so, uh, when they had filed, I went back to the produce house, and I begged them to loan me some more money. I gotta pay that guy, or he’s going to sue me. And so, uh, I was able to borrow enough money to pay the, that fertilizer company off. And there was more, other companies, the seed companies. And I owed them money. They said they would hold off. And so next year I figured well, what I’m going to do is double the acreage of strawberries, and try to get the money back. And I planted forty acres of strawberries and we started harvesting in April and there was a beautiful crop! My God! Everybody was envious. I was harvesting 4,000 boxes a day. And all of a sudden it started to rain. (Wheeler and Alethea Nagata chuckle) And for two weeks straight! And it just destroyed the whole berries. And so, uh, his uncle (he points to his wife) was familiar with some freezer company in Fallbrook there and they talked him into starting a strawberry freezer! And, uh, he come to me and said “Hey, why don’t you invest in this. All the growers will put up money, and we’ll go ahead and process the strawberries.” And we were, before that we were sending our frozen berries to Smucker’s. Well, they paid pretty good. Well, I said “Fred, I think we shouldn’t go into this business. It’s a risky business.” He says “No, it’s a sure thing.” But, his company went bankrupt so he got a job in Oxnard or― Alethea Nagata: Ventura. George Nagata: Ventura, for his chili company. And he let us go and left his freezer go. But we were members of the Freezers so we had to ship it to him. So, I―the second crop, the rain had stopped, so we sent all of our berries to this freezer, and, and, uh, to buy the can and buy the sugar, well, somebody has to guarantee the payment on it. See? And so, about four or five of us volunteered to go ahead and sign the agreement that we’re responsible. Well, at the end of the season, they can’t pay for the cans, they can’t pay for the sugar. And so, they froze my bank account! Because I was one of the guaranteers. And hell, I couldn’t―I had workers, and I couldn’t―and my brother said “Hey, they froze the account. We can’t pay the, the help. We’ve got to pay the help.” So, “Oh, my god.” We went back to the produce house and borrowed some more money, and, and we were able to pay American Can and sugar. All of us growers put up the money to pay this off. And then the company went bankrupt. The strawberry in a frozen can, we―W.H. Ruth Company is a marketing (unclear), and they put it in a cold storage. And they couldn’t sell it, so they had it in cold storage so long that the storage fee ate up all of it. (chuckles) Wheeler: Right. George Nagata: And so, you know, we were out of― Wheeler: And there’s the― George Nagata: We took a beating. Oh my God. Wheeler: It was quite an adjustment after the war, getting established. We’ve kind of skipped over your coming back. You came back to San Marcos. And tell us a little bit more about how your family was farming and had you married at this point? Alethea Nagata: No. Wheeler: You hadn’t met each other. Alethea Nagata: No. Not yet. Wheeler: Okay. So, you were living in San Marcos. You were living in Oceanside? George Nagata: San Luis Rey, at that time. Wheeler: San Luis Rey. Alethea Nagata: But, he, he, uh, I’m getting confused now a little bit. But, um, there was so much that went on. We came back and, um, my grandfathers settled in San Marcos, and we―and our family were in San Luis Rey. So, um, my―I guess, my father―well, all I remember was coming back from camp and my father made me drive the Caterpillar and he was―because we didn’t have any help. And so, he―he got on the back and―and he wanted me to drive the Caterpillar. Well, I had never driven it before. But I―that stands out in my mind as an incident that I do remember, that when we first came back, that’s what he made me do! (laughs, as does Wheeler) Wheeler: And you had just graduated from high school at that point. Alethea Nagata: I had already finished in camp. Wheeler: So that was pretty, uh, different for women at any― Alethea Nagata: Well, my sisters― Wheeler: ―any (unclear) Alethea Nagata: There were three of us girls. The first three. And my sister drove trucks and, I mean, she did all kinds of things. Both of my sisters. And so, it wasn’t so outrageous. And my dad was extremely kind to women. Wheeler: Mmm. Alethea Nagata: For someone from Japan, he took care of the women. So, I do to this day remember that for being a Japanese man, that he―he respected women. So, that’s always been very nice. But, um, uh, the farm, well, he―we grew―he grew asparagus. And he still did grow chili peppers at that time. Wheeler: At that time, had they done the diversity that they do now? Or was that just beginning? Alethea Nagata: Then―then―then, the diversity began, um, when my younger brother kind of started taking over. Oh, my father was still involved with it. They grew romaine, and tomatoes, and things like that. So― Wheeler: As we look at the farmers now― Alethea Nagata: Strawberries, also. Wheeler: ―and the some fields will be waiting, like, some year we’ll plant, but others have those plants about 6 inches high. Others they’ll be almost grown. You can see how the changes. How did that all come about, just by trial and error? Or by deliberate planning? Alethea Nagata: Well, there’s, um―my father and my brother grew cauliflower, um, and that is not a money-making crop. But, they, they grew asp―the cauliflower because it kept the workers so that you had to maintain the workers, you know. That was a part of the problem, also, is to have enough help. Wheeler: Mm-hmm. Alethea Nagata: And so the reason for even planting it was, um, to keep the help, you know. That was quite a, um, problem in keeping―(turns her head toward Mr. Nagata) you know about keeping the workers. So― George Nagata: Getting back to her uncle, Fred. He took a liking to me and he wanted me to go around with him into like the Farm Bureau, and this labor, uh, the Bracero program, where we had association. And I spoke with one of the Board of Directors, and he took me all the places and introduced me to all the things that, and he was a, a, a U.C. Davis graduate. So, we would go into U.C. Davis and, and try to get, uh, the university to experiment, develop a new variety of berries for, suitable for southern California. And they said that uh there was no budget for it. So, we went to the Legislature and had one of our representatives, um, pass a budget so they could experiment. So, they, the university assigned a man and sent him down here where and we were trying new strawberries, grapes, and after a while it was successful that it helped us all survive the strawberry industry in, in southern California, from Oxnard to San Diego. We got a new variety and kept improving and improving our, our strawberries. And everybody was able to stay in business. Uncle Fred was one of the instigators in that. And he says one day to me “Hey, I got a blind date set up for you.” (Mrs. Nagata chuckles) We’re going to the Palladium.” (Alethea laughs) So, I wondered who it was? And it was her! (all three of them laugh) And so that’s how we got together. Alethea Nagata: Well, my uncle Fred was a, um, he was drafted into the Army when we were in camp. He was, yeah― Wheeler: He didn’t (unclear) Alethea Nagata: He was in the artillery, yeah. And he had, he saw action in Europe, and― (clears her throat) Wheeler: Hhmmm. This was quite a― Alethea Nagata: Yes. Wheeler: ―with your fam―some of your family back in Japan. Some of you in camp. And then he’s fighting in the― Alethea Nagata: The people in Japan were, were, couple of children that were left in Japan were from my grandfather. And, and, um, (clears throat) they were kind of farmed out. Because of the law, they were not able to come. He was not able to bring them later because one child was just born when my grandmother came to this country. She couldn’t handle a two-year-old boy and you know, on the, on the ship. So, they left two daughters in Japan, my grandfather did. And he had to, to farm them out and among relatives and, and the, the baby he had to farm out to a, a woman who would kind of take over childcare. And so, these poor women that were left in Japan, was pretty terrible, because of the law. And they were not able to come to the U.S. (clears throat). So that’s a little background but― Wheeler: Yes. Those are things that are barriers and we have to really think about― Alethea Nagata: Well, see, yeah. Because it was the Asians that were, were in that kind of predicament, whereas it did not affect the Europeans. Wheeler: Yes. So, after, um, about, say up until 1960, did things start to turn around then, for the growth and the diversity? When did that really take hold? George Nagata: Uh, it took hold about ten years after they granted a experiment in southern California. First it was, uh, U.S.D.A. property and it’s on the beach, where it was a little too small to do an experiment so the, uh, university had a property there in, uh, in, uh, Orange County that, uh, belonged to the university so they moved the experimental plot to, uh, Irvine Ranch. And Irvine Ranch gave them, I think, about twenty or thirty acres to the university and they started experimenting there. And they developed various varieties and that’s when we were able to adapt a new variety of strawberries here, and it was very successful. Wheeler: That is very interesting because we’re known for good strawberries that we have. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: Right now, do you grow a lot, different kinds of crops? George Nagata: Well, after we retired, in about 1980, we, uh, figured to stop growing, uh, any kind of crop because it is a gamble and we didn’t want to, because they’re growing a lot of tomatoes in Mexico and strawberries in Mexico. And it’s hard to compete with produce from foreign countries. And they flooded the market, and they just grow thousands and thousands of acres of tomatoes and strawberries, that you can’t compete with them. And so, we decided we’re going to quit the farming business. We’ll quit. And I asked Neal and one of my nephews to, if they were interested, and they said they would take it over. So, I, we gave it to them. And we were operating okay, but the nephew got into gambling and he, uh, the company money― Wheeler: But the, um, back to the, the way that agriculture has changed, and how you survived from one kind of crops to another. What kind of things have you done that have been innovative in making that happen? Like were you, you were probably growing some asparagus or some other things besides the cauliflower. George Nagata: Well, we started to grow the crops, like blueberries. Wheeler: Okay. George Nagata: We put in about― Alethea Nagata: Cherimoya. George Nagata: ten acres of blueberries, and also the cherimoya, which is a fruit. I don’t know if you know what cherimoya is. It’s, um, (turns to his wife) what happened to the one I gave you? Alethea Nagata: I’ll, I’ll show it to her. Wheeler: There’s a lot of people that come here from all over the world, and they’d probably like to know that. George Nagata: And so, it hasn’t been very successful and the cherimoya takes a lot of labor, because you have to hand-pollinate those. But, uh, (looks to the left, off camera, and Mrs. Nagata reaches to the left to grab a cherimoya) Wheeler: Could you show that so―there we go. (Alethea places the cherimoya on the table in front of Wheeler) Tell us about this little piece of fruit. George Nagata: This is a small one! They get about this big! (gestures a wider diameter than the actual fruit) Wheeler: Oh really! George Nagata: Mm-hmm. (Alethea pushes the fruit across the table to Wheeler, and then pulls it back to center it on the table between them) Wheeler: Okay, there we go. You see that now? Um, well, there’s a lot of us that don’t know what that is, or how do you use it? And how do you grow it? George Nagata: It ripens and there’s a lot of seeds inside. You have to sort the seed out. Alethea Nagata: And people who love it, love it. They just― Wheeler: Is it a fruit? Alethea Nagata: It’s a fruit. George Nagata: I don’t― Wheeler: So― George Nagata: I don’t care for it (laughs) Alethea Nagata: It’s sort of like a slightly banana flavor, but the people who grow up with it― Wheeler: Is it easy to grow in this climate, in this soil? George Nagata: It’s easy to grow, but hard to set. It doesn’t form a fruit. You have to hand-pollinate them. Wheeler: Oh! Very interesting! George Nagata: The flower is like a trumpet (holds his hand up to indicate an open trumpet-shaped flower) so it can’t get the pollen inside, see. Wheeler: What do you eat it with? George Nagata: Yeah. Alethea Nagata: Well, um― Wheeler: Just by itself? Alethea Nagata: By itself, yeah. Wheeler: Like an apple? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. Wheeler: Very interesting. Alethea Nagata: Well, you have to remove the seeds, you know. But, yeah. Wheeler: So, this is very interesting in that we contribute so much to the agricultural industry in San Diego. It’s the fourth largest industry. So, you’ve contributed to this in so many ways. I’m fascinated by how you’ve had your ups and downs, the fact that there were times when the Japanese could not buy land here. There were times when they could, and how all these things change, and the incarceration was atrocious. But, you’ve survived it, and what do you see as the future of farming here? Is that a, too big a question? Alethea Nagata: It is a big, large question, because of the laws. How California is. George Nagata: They don’t want us to farm. Most of the politicians, they want to get rid of the farms. And that’s why they cut off the water for a lot of― Wheeler: That’s another thing that you’ve had to deal with, is the water situation. George Nagata: That’s right. Wheeler: And how is it so scarce now, and there’s, um, almost rationing. Well we’re restricted in how many times we can water our yards. So, so all of these things that impacted your livelihood, and we all want our children and our grandchildren to live happily ever after but that’s, it changes whether we like it or not. George Nagata: It changes. Alethea Nagata: I believe California was supplying United States with a lot of the, the vegetables and fruits, I believe. But I don’t know. California is really interesting. Wheeler: Yes, it is. The citrus fruits have been shipped all over the world. And yet, at the same time you’re talking about the strawberries and how that has been impacted, too. But, what other things have you, in your interesting lifespan, what other things have you―would you like to share with our community, our, with our future, what, what would you, what is your secret as they famously say? George Nagata: Well, I don’t think there’s very much future in the farming business because the foreign countries like Chile, and all those South American countries are growing and shipping all the stuff here, and Mexico. That’s a wide-open country there. And I farmed there for a couple of years and an associate with a Mexican partner. I grew, planted 500 acres of strawberries, down there. (Mrs. Nagata laughs) And, I told my partner that his job was to get the pickers, and, and make the cooler big enough so where we could handle 500 acres of strawberries. You have to pre-cool those strawberries or they won’t ship. And when you cool them down to 34 degrees, just before freezing, there is, the food gets firm, and you could ship it to the United States without damaging the fruit. Well, when it grows 500 acres, the facilities won’t handle but pay one-tenth of what they, uh, What I told him that. Well, he says “my brothers all have coolers.” I said “They’re not prepared for that. You gotta prepare for that. It’s got to be a cool, cool, 34 degrees. It has to have kind of a vacuum cooled deal, and you gotta set it up.” And he said “Don’t worry. I’ll get them to do it.” He doesn’t do it. So, we lost 500 acres of berries! Wheeler: There’s, yes. Those kinds of things are, um, it’s part of the change and how we have to look at things more global. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: And sometimes we get really busy and forget that. But is there any other, um, things that you think that we could be doing to enhance the way that food is prepared or grown? George Nagata: Well, the only thing you could probably grow is specialty crops. Like tomatoes, they grow by the thousand acres. The farmer down there grows five thousand acres of tomatoes. And you can’t compete with people like that. Wheeler: No. So, what’s changing? George Nagata: So, uh, you gotta change the kind. But there’s very little crop that you could put in that, that you could sell to the mass market. Um, and, I don’t know what we can grow. We’ve been studying it for about ten years to see what is profitable. But, at first the blueberry was a very profitable business, but now everybody grows it, and they grow in Mexico, and they are earlier than we are, and they flood the market. And they also come from Chile, and they just flood the market. And that’s why they sell those blueberries so cheap. Wheeler: Right. The fact that we have labor and we have water sources that we are constantly looking at as to how, what we need and what we have to― George Nagata: Well, the trouble is, the workers don’t want to work on the farms, and they― Wheeler: The lack of interest in farming. Alethea Nagata: There’s the, there’s the politics. Some of it’s about the politics. Wheeler: Yes, unfortunately that’s everywhere. George Nagata: All these people they’re coming into the United States. None of them are working on the farms. They want other kinds of jobs. Wheeler: Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Well, there’s a lot of things that we’re trying to work out and I so appreciate your input and to, well, thank you more for the contributions you’ve made. It’s been phenomenal to hear your stories. Is there anything else you have to add, beca―? George Nagata: Right now, I can’t think. (they all laugh) Wheeler: Well, I cannot thank you enough. It’s been absolutely delightful. Thank you again. GLOSSARY: American Can (pg.10) Bracero program (pg.12) Camp Pendleton (pg.7) Caterpillar (pg.11) Cherimoya (pg.13-14) Credit Bureau (pg.9) Farm Bureau (pg.12) Freezers (pg.10) Grave, Mr. (pg.8) Heinz (pg.2) Irvine Ranch (pg.13) Kiso (pg.7) Kumamoto, Japan (pg.1) Poston, Arizona (pg.5,7-8) Rancho Santa Margarita (pg.7) Santa Fe Train Depot (pg.5) Smucker’s (pg.10) Tarbutton (pg.8) Tasuke, Wor (pg.2) Tohanga, California (pg.7) Yaskochi, Kane (pg.2) W. H. Ruth Company (pg.10) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.xml NagataGeorge_WheelerLucy_2022-11-16_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nagata, George and Alethea. Interview November 16, 2022 Description An account of the resource Oral History of 2nd generation (George and Alethea Nagata) who represent four generations of Japanese Americans contributing to the agricultural industry of North County San Diego, California. During their interview the Nagatas discuss their family history, their forced internments at Poston Relocation Center in Yuma, Arizona during World War II, their lives post-internment, and their working lives as agricultural laborers and family farmers. The Nagatas discuss their operations in detail and muse on the future of farming in the United States. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-33 Subject The topic of the resource Agricultural laborers -- California Agricultural laborers -- Colorado Family farms -- California Japanese Americans Japanese Americans -- Forced removal and internment, 1942-1945 Poston Relocation Center (Ariz.) World War, 1939-1945 -- Concentration camps -- Arizona -- Yuma Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alethea Nagata George Nagata Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado Southern California Yuma (Ariz.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alethea and George Nagata Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alex White OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chamorro;imperialism;colonization;culture;decolonization;Guam OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 White, Alex. April 18th, 2024 SC027-082 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Chamorro (Micronesian people) Chamorro ; imperialism ; colonization ; culture ; decolonization ; Guam Alex White Robert Sheehan moving image WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a8a1f90cbd2908f9886a3aeb3bbc3e4f.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Oral history interview with Alex White, April 18th, 2024, by Robert Sheehan, Distinct Collections Specialist, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 23 Background and Childhood White discusses his background and childhood growing up in Colorado before moving to California and living on a Miwok reservation. During his time in Colorado, White felt that he was unable to express himself freely due to the homogenous nature of living in a white, Christian, military town. White also talks about how his father was unwilling to speak Chamorro because of his own upbringing where he was beaten in school for speaking his native language. Colorado ; California ; Chamorro ; religion ; military life ; repression ; language 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1137 Returning to Guam Alex talks about his return trip to Guam in 2015 and how that trip sparked his interest in learning more about his Chamorro history and culture. Guam ; Chamorro culture ; heritage ; Pacific island history 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1648 The Impact of Imperialism on Chamorro Culture Alex discusses how the extended periods of colonization and imperialism have affected Chamorro culture. From the Spanish colonization to American imperialism and Japanese occupation, the Chamorro community on Guam has had been forced to demonstrate their cultural resilience for more than 400 years. Colonizing forces have displaced Chamorro communities across the island of Guam and significantly affected everything from their culture, to their language, and how they live their lives. colonization ; imperialism ; Spanish colonialism ; American imperialism ; Japanese occupation ; Spanish American War ; World War Two ; WWII ; forced march 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2537 Differing Views of "Liberation" Alex talks about the cultural shift that is happening within the Chamorro community in regards to how "Liberation Day," the day that Guam was returned to US control from Japanese military occupation, is seen between elders and younger generations. The elders within the Chamorro community widely view Liberation Day in a positive light, but there is a growing feeling among younger generations that "liberation" really just means re-occupation. cultural shift ; imperialism ; opression ; displacement ; Chamorro culture 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2968 How Language can Renew the Path to Cultural Healing Alex demonstrates his views on how language can be a tool to reclaim parts of his heritage that imperialism and colonization have attempted to destroy. This is especially important for the Chamorro community because of how the Spanish words and linguistic nuances, like gendered terms, have infiltrated the Chamorro language. Reclaiming the Chamorro language also creates a connection between Alex and his ancestors and solidifies aspects of his religious beliefs. language ; generational trauma ; decolonization ; Chamorro culture ; cultural healing 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3379 Inafa'maolek Inafa'maolek means in the literal sense to "make good" or "to do well." In the broader sense, Inafa'maolek describes the Chamorro concept of restoring harmony and reciprocity for good deeds and taking care of one another. Alex talks about how this concept is applied by Chamorro people both on Guam and in the Chamorro diaspora. community ; respect ; reciprocity ; harmony 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Oral history Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program histed by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.000 So today is July 18th, 2024. My name is Robert Sheehan and I'm here with Alex White for an oral history interview with, California State University San Marcos. How are you doing today, Alex? 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:16.000 I'm good. Yeah. Grateful to be here. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Good. We're happy to have you. Thanks for being here with me today, it's really special that we get to do this oral history. If it's all right, I'd like to start with your childhood and family. Could you tell me a little bit about how you grew up and where you grew up? 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.000 Yeah. Any of it in Chamorro or, or 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:41.000 Yeah, you can do any of it in Chamorro. We don't necessarily have a Chamorro translator, but if you wouldn't mind translating yourself, that be fine. 00:00:41.000 --> 00:02:07.000 Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, So my name is, Tadon Guita Pago. But my American name is Alex -- Alexander Michael White. I'm currently living in, on the territory of the Pomo and Miwok people in Santa Rosa, California. But I grew up in Carter Springs, Colorado, and I come from the families of Leon Guerrero White, from the Village of Manila and Todesco Cruz from the Village of Santa Rita. So I was just like, my somewhat traditional, like Chamorro greeting is like naming like who I am and the family that I, come from. And yeah, so that's, that's the, you have to gimme like, honestly, like my brain's a little foggy, so, I'll need, I'll need more prompting than usual just given the, given my current, yeah. 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.000 Sure. No worries. 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Cognitive, cognitive sharpness, I suppose. 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 You bet. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.000 So, but yeah, so that's, that's the intro. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.000 How was it growing up in Santa Rosa? 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.000 So I grew up in Carter Springs. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.000 Carter Springs. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:04:28.000 I would say being, mixed race, if you will. So my dad is Chamorro and my mom is, European descent, German and Italian predominantly. And, Carter Springs is known as the Evangelical Vatican, so there's more evangelical Christian churches per capita than anywhere else in the world. And then it's also triangulated by the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson and NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) so it's kind of, a predominantly like white, militant, evangelical community and then growing up with, liberal parents, of, yeah, mixed race. So it was, the landscape was beautiful, but I'd say culturally very isolating. And I didn't, I never met another I Chamorro, my entire time. I had family there, but in saying in school and in the community, aside from Liberation, which is like one of our main, Chamorro holidays, I never, I rarely crossed paths. I never went to school with another Chamorro. so yeah, it was definitely very isolating and I think part of it being so conservative, as well as being such a, like a military town, as well as my dad's experiences after World War II. Growing up, he identified us as like, I'm American first and Guamanian second. So that's, and I didn't actually even know the term Chamorro until I was 10 years old. so I, I identified as Guamanian, but not, not Chamorro until, I was ten. So yeah, so there was, there was beautiful things. My material needs were met. I always had, you know, stable housing, food, had neighbors who were kind to us. But I'd say like there was a lot of, yeah, there was things that were challenging, I would say. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Like socio-culturally outside of, outside of like my like inner circle of like friends and, and neighbors. Yeah. 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:40.000 What sort of challenges did you face other than the isolationism? 00:04:40.000 --> 00:05:53.000 I'd say, the, I think of not being a evangelical Christian was probably like the, the most challenging. you know, it'd be kind of things like, my dad had a, or maybe it was my parents had a sticker on the back of the car that, had like the Darwin fish that said evolve. And so a car got keyed. You know, it was known that I wasn't that, like we weren't evangelical and so, you know, people leave like bibles on our car or like illustrated guys to salvation, like tucked in. It was also, I'd say like homophobic, and very heteronormative and, yeah, I think it was, I very much in order to feel safe, I was perceived as being white cis male and so I never really tried to step outside of that identity just to feel safe. So yeah. 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:55.000 It sounds like a little difficult growing up. 00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:11.000 Yeah, it was. I, you know, I wouldn't, growing up, I wouldn't say this is difficult. It's just upon reflection there's like a lot of, yeah, a lot of, yeah. I can reflect upon it as as as very challenging. Yeah. 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:17.000 Did your father speak any Chamorro in at home or does he speak any Chamorro now? 00:06:17.000 --> 00:08:44.000 No, I, the, the three phrases that I, the only three phases he really taught me were, . So Hafa Adai is hello. And that's kind of like every Chamorro at least knows Hafa Adai. And then Si Yu'os Ma'ase is, thank you. The literal translation is like "the creator is merciful." but Si Yu'os Ma'ase is like, our common for thank you. is the way my dad grew up saying, I love you. and then Hafa Tatatmanu Hao was like, how are you? I thought as a kid it meant I'm hungry. Please feed me. Because that was on the, one of the important phrases my dad taught me before he went back to Guam for the first time. So, but no, it, Chamorro was never spoken in the household. I know there was, Chamorro was a genderless language, and so my dad mixed up, he and she all the time, you know, which my mom found very frustrating and embarrassing. And the, I think my dad was of a generation where, you know, he was, he was beaten for speaking Chamorro, like growing up, like in schools. He was born in (19)41, so for the first 18 years of his life, he only spoke Chamorro at home, but he would go to school where it said English only if he spoke Chamorro, the nuns would beat him. And also his parents saw that in order for, you know, for his, for their children to have the greatest chance of like success and stability, they needed to learn English to get a good job. And to, also just to assimilate into American culture. So he moved to the States when he was 18, so in 1959 actually in Oceanside. And so from the time he left the island, the only time he spoke Chamorro was like with family and friends, but in the community, he really, he found like an immense sense of pride of being American, growing up. And so, very much just wanted to be American speak American act American get an American job. And so, yeah, so speaking the language like was never really a priority. And I only knew those phrases, and it's not like we ever said it really outside of like, when you like traveled to or preparing to travel to Guam for the first time. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.000 When did you travel to Guam for the, the first time? 00:08:47.000 --> 00:09:56.000 First time was for Liberation in 1997, so I was 10 years old and actually was like full credit to my mom. She called the University of Guam, you know, it was like pre-internet, you know, really. So like called the University of Guam, and there's an 18 hour time difference. So I don't know if she like woke up early or stayed up late to call them and ordered a book, to be delivered to our house. And, you know, mail in a check , this is oral histories, I'm just telling, you know, like, you know, that's, it was pre, pre transferring to any funds digitally. And so she had a book delivered and that was, I remember distinctly that my dad was teaching me, like we were learning Chamorro History for the first time, and that's the first time I heard the word Chamorro was when I was 10-year-old, like from that book. But my dad was learning stories about Chamorro history that he had never learned growing up, 'cause he was taught American history, not Chamorro history. so that was very distinct. And yeah, so we went back for Liberation. So it would've been the third week of July, 1997. 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:00.000 Is that the first time that you were kind of in a Chamorro community? 00:10:00.000 --> 00:14:28.000 Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I, we, because there's a large military presence, and I believe, you know, you can like factor, but something like, like four out of every five Chamorro, like are enlisted in the, in the military. It's like a very like high enlistment rate for our veterans. Because of the large military presence, there actually was a Chamorro community that existed, you know on base. And so, you know, once a year there would be a Liberation picnic, at a park in Colorado Springs. And so it was there, but that was really, more of like food, you know, it was like, I experienced culturae through food, but I don't have any recollection of the language or necessarily I couldn't, I wouldn't have been able to articulate that as like Chamorro like values or practices. So yeah, going on island, like for the first time, that was very much like the first time I experienced Chamorro culture and like the thing was though, is that I had a older cousin, tell me that because my mom is haole, which is like somewhat derogatory term for like a white person. not as much as like it is in Hawaii, but nevertheless, it's not like a, you don't want to be a haole , you know, like per se. But, because my last name is White, which has its own very unique story, but because my last name was White and my mom was white, and I'm light skinned, you know, my cousin said like, you're not Chamorro. and so since then, when I was 10 years old and I had a cousin telling me that, you know, who's like slightly older than me, then I, I thought like, well then I'm not allowed to, you know, I have a cousin telling me that, so I'm not allowed to say I'm Chamorro. So I would, I would say I was like Guamanian to non-Chamorros, but I wouldn't necessarily, if I was in a group of Chamorros, like I wouldn't say I was Chamorro too. Just because I thought, you know, yeah. Not that I had this language at the time, but I don't wanna be like appropriating or posing as Chamorro or like claiming an identity that I didn't have any right to. So yeah, it really wasn't until my early thirties that, I identified as Chamorro. Because of, because of that first time, like going back. I think an another experience that stood out was, that was like the first time I had experience with Taotaomo'na. So those are like our ancestors. and I remember going to a home that was next to a graveyard, and my dad asking permission, you know, for us to enter like doing like a kinda like indigenous protocol for entering like that type of space. And I remember going and then like feeling like picked up and like lifted up like as a kid. So that was like, those are like some of the, the things that I remember like standing out, like there was. And then the other was, that we were, my dad was, you know, it had been probably, let's see, he left in (19)59. They came back for their wedding one time. So it probably been about 15 years since he'd been, like, he went in (19)59, came back in the eighties (1980s) from my, my parents' honeymoon. And then it wasn't again until like (19)97. 'cause the thing is, it's, you know, there's like only one airline that goes there, and so they have a monopoly. So like nowadays it's $2,000, but you can kind of like adjust that for inflation. It's not, not like a quick, easy, affordable trip to go back. And so, you know, my parents were, working class and so it's not like we had the funds and there's actually like a story that goes with that, but I was just like, focus on that. But my dad was lost, like looking for directions on Guam. And, I just remember like, when you stop and ask people for directions, you know, they were like, oh, hey, come and eat, come and eat, you know, so, which is just very Inafa'maolek (striving for harmony). It's like our, our, like the Chamorro people are very generous and reciprocal and giving. And so that like stood out to me of like these complete strangers inviting us in to feed us food. So yeah, those are some of the, the memories from our first time. 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Very cool. What caused you to want to kind of reconnect with your culture? And learn Chamorro and become and identify as Chamorro? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:16:51.000 Yeah, I would say, a couple things. First was that my dad had 12 siblings. Two that died during the forced march to concentration camp, on Guam. So they never survived infanthood. And I had two, my auntie Cindy and my uncle Danny passed away while I was in college. But around 2016, between 2016 and 2023, I lost my uncle Jesse, auntie Terry, auntie Annie, aunt Dorothy and uncle Vince. So I lost five of my dad's siblings. And so, especially after my aunt Dorothy, my dad became like the eldest surviving in his family. And the only one who like spoke Chamorro, his younger siblings, Agnes and David, they grew up, kinda like English first rather than like Chamorro first. and then they moved to the states when they were young, still in school. So they went to school, in the US. And so my dad was like the, the last of his, like his family, his lineage to speak Chamorro. And so just like, there's an enormous amount of grief around not learning more of the language. You know, there's, there's that saying that like, every time an elder passes, a library burns down. And so, so many of our families stories, passed with my aunties and uncles who passed in like, such a concentrated point of time, you know, it was just kind of like one after the other. So that was, you know, definitely motivated by that, of like, man, you don't have, like, you know, I felt like, at the time I very much felt like, like sand that was like trying to hold onto sand and it just like falling from my fingers of like not getting that, getting those stories while they were still here with us. 00:16:51.000 --> 00:18:17.000 The other was just going through, you know, kind of feeling spiritually malnourished, like trying to make sense of this world and my place in it. And, unfortunately got involved in some like, new age spiritual communities that didn't have good, spiritual hygiene. Did not necessarily, like appropriated practices without knowing the protocol or, consulting with elders. And just seeing a lot of harm, as a result of that. And it was connecting with other spiritual practitioners of, like indigenous, spiritual practitioners. And, I had like a specifically like a mentor Luna Pantera, who I like see as a spiritual counselor from the African diaspora had a saying that, like, you need to, you need to connect with your ancestral roots, otherwise, the coming storm will sweep you away. And so just kind of seeing where we're going, like in the larger, you know, sociopolitical, economic, conflict and chaos, , it feels like we're like, especially 2016 of how do we ground ourselves? 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:57.000 And so like trying to develop an ancestral reverence like lineage practice, was was part of that journey of like really wanting to reconnect. And then also returning to Guam in 2015, with my siblings and my dad. And so like returning to the island and, and learning more of the history, in my adulthood, was really like another like another major catalyst for wanting to return to that. And yeah, so those are like, those are some, we'll take like a breath for you to ask my questions from there because it's like a lot. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.000 Yeah. On that. so could you tell me about the trip in 2015? 00:19:01.000 --> 00:20:14.000 Yeah, that was the, that was like the first and maybe last time that, my siblings and all of their kids, and my dad all would go to Guam together. And so we went for Liberation again. But that time I was, very much like wanting to learn about, like, about our history outside of, you know, like you grow up kind of like on, like I grew up really only knowing the story of the, of World War II and the Americans coming to liberate, Guam. That's like really kind of, the extent of what I knew about that. And so returning, I was trying to learn about what our practices were, like, what our history was prior to not only like the Americans, but like pre-colonization. and so, you know, I bought a, ancient Chamorro Society book, and was reading about that, just like very hungry for all of that. 00:20:14.000 --> 00:21:47.000 And, man, I'm trying to remember. I think, and we also like went to, oh my God, I'm forgetting the name. It's in the south in Inarajan. Oh my God, I'm embarrassed. This is on his, that there's a village in the south, I think it's Inarajan that is near a cave. But, where it was like set up like a, it's not an actual ancient Chamorro village, but it was set up like a ancient Chamorro village. So, going through those practices and, and then also of like talking like of having the awareness that you don't have when you're ten of like, of speaking to elders. So I would go and like, visit the elders and ask them stories about like their past and their history, and, visiting my dad's, like our family's old house and our village, and really just very, very hungry to understand, understand my people because I was, you know, at that point I was, let's see, like twenty, twenty-seven, no, anyways, I was in my mid-twenties at that point. And so just like to be in your mid-twenties and still like questioning and like wouldn't be able really to explain anything about my, like where my people come from, I think was, yeah, I was like was very much like inspired, by that, like by that trip. 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:59.000 How has Chamorro culture changed from pre-colonization to colonization to Japanese occupation, to liberation to US... 00:21:59.000 --> 00:23:28.000 How much time we got how, you know, it's, it's a miracle that like, we're here. You know, I'd say there's, there like our Hinengge, like our values, there's certain values that have survived like throughout the arc of, all of that, you know, I'd say like our, our values of like Inafa'maolek, so like of our kind of social reciprocity and mutual aid and like, I will support you and take care of you like when you're in need right now, because I know one day I'll be in need and like, you'll take care of me. Like that, that type of, that type of reciprocity that has survived amidst like, all of those changes like that, that cultural, like tenet is there. and I'd say like, , so like showing respect for, for elders, but as well as children. Like going both ways and just like a reverence for, you know, caring for those who are older than you, even if they're not your, even if you're not blood related, like they're your family, your community, like you take care of each other. you know. Mamahlao is like having, to have shame, like seeing that as like a good thing to like, Guaiya that's like the cultural value of love, like, and loving for each other. So those, there's certain values that have survived. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:24:33.000 And I'd say like really we're, it's kind of, it's existed in different forms, but of, of like our ancestral like reverence practices, our relationship with the land. And, you know, the foods that we make, those have all have survived, but so much has been lost, during, when the, I guess I mean, just to, just to kind of like set the context, like we were like the first first people to people, the Pacific. And so, you know, roughly 4,000 years ago, our ancestors from back then, like were at the edge, like maybe it was Taiwan, maybe it was the Philippines, probably not Indonesia, but maybe it was like one of those, like one of those points they were like on the, like eastern shoreline, like looking out over the Pacific, and they wondered like what was on the other side of that water. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:25:36.000 And so they, they carved a canoe by hand and filled, without any refrigeration, like filled their canoe with food and said goodbye to everyone they knew, not knowing if they would ever see anybody ever again. And just by like following the stars, like reading the stars and the pattern of the waves, [they] paddled east to try to find another land. And that's what they found this little 24 mile long island. And, actually it's like the birds that are like on the bill of my hat, the story goes that like they saw birds and so they knew if there was a bird, that there was land as they actually like followed the bird, like to Guam. So just thinking of like that and then creating this, creating this culture where like, you know, of course there was conflict, but there would be, it was like only amongst like the warrior class, and as soon as like one person was harmed, like, then it was over, like the conflict ended. 00:25:36.000 --> 00:26:38.000 and that all of our, our people, you know, that we had, we had healers, we had like Yo'amte, you know, like our medicine people who healed both like physical and spiritual ailments and used plants and, you know, I'm pretty sure the thing goes like is that people like live to be a hundred, and there was really an absence of like any disease and we had, you know, fresh water, we had birds that didn't exist anywhere else in the world. Like all these different, you know, it was like, it was like a paradise, you know, like of course there's conflict, you know, because there's human beings on there. And also there's these stories from like other indigenous tribes, like the, the Haida Gwaii, like the First Nations, who are like north of kwakwaka'wakw like of them, going across to like Taiwan and then down to New Zealand and everything like that. 00:26:38.000 --> 00:27:39.000 So like they, they went amongst other islands, like there was like international relations, but it was, there's like reciprocity and like sharing and that it was that way for like 3,500 years. Oh, also like the Latte Stone, like, it's like a really amazing thing. It's kind of like the Maria as islands versions of Easter Island, you know, it's these huge, these structures that like were carved that weigh thousands of pounds that they don't know how they moved these type of things. But that's like, we built our houses on top of those things. So there's things that are like, it's a very thriving, incredible culture that existed. And then, Guam was like the first one to be, colonized by like a European colony. So like in the, what was it like 1521 I think was when Magellan landed there. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:28:31.000 And you can like, I don't even wanna be telling like this story, you know, I'll just like, like share some of my stuff. But, you know, like, like say like my ninth great grandfather, say he was like eight or nine, like when the Spanish arrived, by the time he was 64, he was seen nine out of the 10 Chamorro people perish, either through like the Chamorro Spanish war or disease, you know, that the Spanish brought. And so just to think like, you know, my ninth great grandparents like survived a genocide, and to see nine out of the 10 of everyone they knew die, you know, like either killed or died. And just to, you know, that's like when they talk about like ancestral intergenerational trauma like that, like exists in our bones, like my bones are made of my ancestors that survive that. 00:28:31.000 --> 00:29:37.382 But that also, like, for us, it's like both trauma, but really trying to focus more on like the resilience of like, we still kept our culture alive, you know, amidst surviving, like that type of genocide. So there's like the Spanish period, which lasted from the 1500s to the1900s, and then the Spanish American War and just as imperialists do, you know, when America won the war, then the treat of Paris of 1898 was when, America "won" Guam like a trophy, but it's because it's one of the largest islands that far west in the Pacific. Like, it's the western most colony of America. It's incredibly strategically significant and important for imperial military operations. So it's like really significant. So then there's like the naval period, which is when my grandmother grew up. 00:29:37.382 --> 00:30:57.905 So like in the early 18, early 1900s , late 1800s, early 1900s, my grandmother and Gracia Tedasco Cruz, was growing up and yeah, so it was like, it wasn't run by the US government, it was like run by the, the Navy. And, just the way, like one of the stories that I connected with that is that like my dad is like, you know, he, he jokes about it as like the curse of the dirty corners, but it's like where like he always has to have, like, he can never leave the house. Like all the counters like have to be clean and like, even the corners have to be washed. And so I kind of like, it's, the way that manifests is like for me too is like there's like kind of this like low grade anxiety if things are cluttered or messy at home, because my dad always kept everything like super clean and he got that from his mom. 00:30:57.905 --> 00:31:15.000 But for his, like for my grandma Gracia, like my Nanan biha , like the Navy would come and do inspections of like Chamorro's houses, you know? And so if you have a Navy officer like coming in, in uniform inspecting the cleanliness of your house, like you have to keep it clean, like military standards type of thing. And so as a young girl, having this, like this, you know, white man in a uniform come in threatening, aggressive, like, you came in and clean, like you're gonna keep your house a certain level of clean. So those are just like small, like, you know, there's like kind of these like abstract academic things, but that's like the way, you know, it kind of like shows up. 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.000 And they weren't in the military at all? 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:21.000 No, no, no. They were, they were just living on their land, their ancestors had for thousands of years. 00:31:21.000 --> 00:32:28.000 But, you know, you know, that's just the settler colonial mindset is like, "I am here to like dominate and impose my culture and my rules and my regulations on these people." You know, one of the things that I get I think about a lot too is like before the Navy were there, I mean, yeah, Spanish, like I think the Spanish imposed some type of taxes, but like when the US arrived, they started, having the Chamorro people pay taxes on their own land that they had lived on for thousands of years. And that was like the thing I just think about for my grandparents is like, they didn't pay for food, they didn't pay for water, they didn't pay for shelter and they didn't pay for healthcare. Because like, all of that comes from the land naturally, the earth gives us that, you know, , it's like we, it's like, you know, a tree's not gonna charge us for harvesting it, you know, like our responsibility is to steward that land is to care for it, you know, so that, that those things can survive. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:33:20.000 But, and you would like for the, for the So'ampti and the Suruhanu , like you gave them food as like an expression of gratitude, so you take care of them so they can continue to do, you know, you help harvest their medicine, but you're not, you're not bringing money. There's actually, like, it's really bad juju to like give money to like a healer because that's like, that's seen as like, you know, there's, there's a lot of negative energy that's associated with like, that type of transactional thing. Like, you wouldn't, like, why would you ever pay someone to heal you? Like you're healing them because they need healed, you know? but I think it's, I really try to impart on like young people, like, like young indigenous people, and especially like young people like in the Pacific diaspora and Chamorros is like, it's not that long ago. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:34:20.000 Like the way that we're living right now is not the only mode of existence. Like, it's not like capitalism is like the highest potential of our human expression, you know? It was not that long ago. It was like in our grandparents and great grandparents generation, which is less than 150 years ago where they didn't have to pay for food and for water and for shelter and healthcare. It's not that long ago. And so another way of living does exist. It's in our lineage and everything like that. But yeah, so when theUS came, like the Navy came, they were trying to diminish the influence of the Spanish missionaries, Catholicism, just freaking wreaked havoc on our island too. But the Catholic priests held like enormous kind of sway and power. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:35:18.000 And so in a way to diminish their power, trying to lessen it, the naval officers came in and burned all the Chamorro-English dictionaries. And the sentiment at the time too was that like, if you spoke Chamorro and English, you only had half a brain in each. And so, like, people were stupid. People were looked down on for being bilingual, you know, it's like if like English is the "most superior" language. Also, there's a thing called like the Insular cases from 1901, which is [where] the Supreme Court said that these unincorporated territories like Guam, like Puerto Rico are an alien race that can't understand Anglo-Saxon principles, which is why they don't have rights. Which that Supreme Court case is still why, like is that's still today. 00:35:18.000 --> 00:36:26.000 It's not like, that's not ancient history. Like that is still like a Supreme Court ruling. That is how our islands are governed. So that's like a lot. But, so they come in and they degrade and exploit and take advantage and control and extract the resources from our land. And then the same day that, so my dad was born, November 7th, 1941. And so he was a month old that the same day that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor [it] was also the same day they invaded Guam. But the US had intelligence around that, so they evacuated the US military members, but those US military members weren't allowed to bring their Chamorro families with them. So they're just like, they're like, "You're on your own Chamorros!" I mean like, "Good luck!" you know, like, "We know Japan's coming, but like, we just gotta get our white military people outta here and like fend for yourselves!" 00:36:26.000 --> 00:37:35.000 And so yeah, my dad was like, a month old, like when it happened. And so then it was, they were under a Japanese rule, which was, and there was some ways, some ways that it was like a little better than the US but most ways it was, it was, cruel and just like an immense amount of suffering that like, I don't necessarily have the energy to unpack, you know, at 10:00 in the morning. You know, the one story I'll tell is like when the, US military campaign was coming to reclaim, you know, like they're doing their, their Pacific theater of like going to... the military campaign to take back those territories and to fight back the Japanese Imperial Army. The Japanese were afraid, like, were afraid that the Chamorro people would side with the Americans, that there would be like that loyalty and allegiance to America, and that they would help the Americans as they came in. 00:37:35.000 --> 00:38:34.000 And so they gathered up all of the Chamorros that they could find, you know, and did a forced march to the Manenggon concentration camp. So my whole family, my dad was three or four [years old] having to do a forced march, no food, no water, middle of the summer, so like nineties [degrees Fahrenheit] humid. And that's what, so my, my auntie Anna, my Aunt Anna and my aunt Maria, I think they were like probably less than two [years old], twins. They were twins and they were being carried. And, during that forced marched the first, one of the first twins, passed away because they didn't, because of those really severe conditions. And, the Japanese guard made my grandparents just leave her on the side of the road. 00:38:34.000 --> 00:39:44.000 And, and then a few miles later, the second twin passed away and my grandpa, so we have a belief, with like a, a very... I'm gonna try to like tell this part... but basically he didn't, it was important to him that they not be alone. And so he, took a major risk and when he saw, a wasp nest, a hornet's nest, stuck his foot in it so his foot would swell up and he risked that so it looked like he basically said like, "I can't walk anymore," to the Japanese guard. and they could have just shot him on the spot. They did that to a lot of [people], but they figured that he would just perish. And so when night came, he walked back, to the first twin that died and buried them together, on the side of the road so they wouldn't be alone. 00:39:44.000 --> 00:40:32.000 And then he went and rejoined his family and they lived in a concentration camp without food or water or shelter, just in the jungle. With violence that I've never experienced or witnessed. And that is very difficult for our elders to even talk about. So yeah, that was, and that's something that's not really taught outside, I mean, it is kind of known about, but it's not really taught much. That experience of like what the Chamorro people suffered in that concentration camp. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000 Would you like to take a short break? 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Ah, no. . I'll just, I'll take a water. Yeah, I'll take a sip of water. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:44.000 Okay. that's such a traumatic experience. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:41:31.000 Yeah, and it just like, it, I think, you know, there's like our, it's traumatic and it just shows like our traumatic and our resilience that we could, you know, I think that's like any time that I, I'm going through like a hard time, I'm actually planning to get a tattoo, like next time I go back to Guam of, of a hornet's nest, like on my ankle, of the hive and, and it say , which in Chamorro means "this is the way" just like you'll do the right thing and you'll take care of like, of your family and your people. 00:41:31.000 --> 00:42:26.000 Like, whatever. It's like a communal thing. It's like, not about me, it's about us, you know? And so I just have that, yeah, I think that's like probably like one of like the strongest stories that lives in me, that I got from my family, and I just feel like, [it] is important to share. But yeah, so then the Americans came and they just, carpet bombed the whole island. They indiscriminately, you know, they didn't really care if there was Chamorros there, they were, they were just trying to kill as many Japanese as possible, so they leveled the whole island. And then for my dad, so it is absolutely the, like, the living conditions, the acute violence and trauma that the Chamorro people experienced under Japanese rule is like, there's no question about that. 00:42:26.000 --> 00:43:25.000 And so in terms of like being liberated from a concentration camp, yes, that is an accurate term. So that's what our Liberation day was like when the Americans arrived and liberated the Chamorros from the concentration camp. But that's what my dad's generation calls it. You know, the elders and yeah, if you're living in those conditions, and you have these Americans come in and they give you candy and you're gonna just be so patriotic, you know. You're free from Japanese rules. So that's where so much of the, there was a legitimate like love and reverence for the US military, especially the Marine Corps, like those who arrived. I mean, that's like one of our main roads on [Guam] is like Marine Corps Drive. So there's like a, almost borderline worship of the US military because of that, for my dad's generation. 00:43:25.000 --> 00:44:45.000 However, my generation sees it as... we call like Reoccupation day, because the US military came and took over two thirds of the island. You know, like stole the land from our ancestors. As we speak, they're, you know, clearing football fields, like multiple football fields of our ancient villages and our ancient burial grounds. They're like, our ancestors' bones are just in paper bags in military offices. One of our most sacred island or sacred parts of the island, the , because of the US military, you know, this is July, 2024. Like because of the enormous amount of violence that Okinawa people have experienced in Japan and the years of resistance of trying to get the military off of there. They're moving the US military service members from Okinawa to Guam, and they're setting up a firing range, over, you know, our ancient caves like a, a place [where] an eight spotted butterfly and this flower that don't exist anywhere else in the world or anywhere else on the island. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000 This like precious, like limestone jungle that doesn't, that is like this precious one of a kind only place in the world ecosystem. They're putting in, a live firing range and doing war games and detonating, detonating, like the, it is like the, also like their way of getting rid of ammunition and things they fire from World War II and just military equipment they're not doing [anyhting with] is literally like creating like a burn pit. They're just like putting old bombs and toxic chemicals and like lighting it on fire, like on the beach, next to an aquifer that supplies 70% of the island's fresh water. You know, so like when we , when we say "liberation", you know it's a complicated term. 'Cause of course we're gonna honor our, our elders experience for like being liberated from that and are grateful to the young men who sacrificed their lives to free my elders and relatives from those oppressive conditions. 00:45:46.000 --> 00:46:20.000 And what is also true is like, it's not like we got our land back, you know? and so like we've never gotten that land back. Like we can't even go, Sumay [destroyed village in Guam] is like, you know, some of my family, we're not even able to go pay our respects to, you know, they, it's called like Sumay Day. Like, I think once a year people are allowed to go to like pay the respects to their elders, you know? So yeah it's very complicated. And, you know, if we had more time, I could even dig into that, but I'll take a breath and see what what questions are coming up for you. 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:34.000 Yeah. Sounds like all that is a very emotionally complicated feeling to have on one hand, Liberation day for your elders and the new generation is saying it's Reoccupation day and having to walk that fine line 00:46:34.000 --> 00:47:33.000 . And we'd never say that to our elders, to the face, like ever, you know. But amongst us, you know, and it's, oh man. I was, I was there for Liberation Day in 2022 and actually for the first iteration of this Prugraman Sinipok, and man, it's just like, because they just parade all of the military equipment they have there, you know, and they're not shy about it at all. You know, they call it like "America's largest aircraft carrier." It's like how they refer to our island. and, you know, it just, it's, it's so militarized and unfortunately because you have that, because the military occupies like two thirds of the island, really the only two industries are like the military and tourism, you know, and also 'cause of the Jones Act. 00:47:33.000 --> 00:48:26.000 Like, we're not allowed to like import food from other countries, you know, it's the same thing as what happens with the Puerto Rico. So, you know, it's like, even though we're so close to China and Indonesia and like all of that, all of our food has to be imported from America. And so that's why like, a gallon of milk is like 10 bucks or something, you know, . It's insane. But because there's all that like markup, you know, the Chamorro people like, yes, we're like US citizens, but we don't have any representation. We have a representative to Congress, but they don't have any voting power. and so, you know, if you, you pay the taxes, you pay for this expensive food to be imported from America, you don't have control over your own land or your own water or your food. 00:48:26.000 --> 00:49:29.000 You know, there's all of that sloganeering of like, "land of the free, because of the brave." You know, it's like the military gives our freedom's. But how free? How free are we if we don't have any sovereignty? If we don't have any say. Also because we're a pawn, you know. North Korea is always talking about like, if they're gonna shoot a missile, that's the first thing they're gonna bomb is Guam. You know, it's like we're a pawn piece in larger imperial conflicts. It's not like Guam has any hostile relations to the Korean people, or like the Chamorro people don't have any hostilities towards China, you know, but because of the US military being there, we're caught in the middle of this larger imperial conflict. So, yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:33.000 Can I shift gears, and talk about language for a second, 00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.498 Please? Yeah. 00:49:34.498 --> 00:49:43.000 Is language a way that the Chamorro people can regain part of that agency that might have been lost through colonization or occupation? 00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:58.000 Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Language is, I think language is the one of the most critical things we can do for cultural preservation and revitalization. Because there's so much of our values and our history that are woven in the language that could be lost. I have a Coast Miwok [Indigenous tribe in California] friend who, their last fluent elder passed in the seventies [1970s]. And so if they're wanting to learn Miwok, Coast Miwok, they're just listening to recordings of like, you know -- [I'm] thankful for people like yourselves who preserve that type of thing. And like, I don't ever wanna see, you know -- I will have failed the, I would have failed to fulfill the responsibility my ancestors have given me if my descendants, generations from now, are only able to hear Chamorro spoken through oral history collections, in libraries. We need to keep the language alive, you know, in like canonical terms, it is like in academic canonical terms, it's extinct. 00:50:58.000 --> 00:52:01.000 Because we only have like 20,000 speakers left in the world, and probably over 60% of those are like over the age of 80, you know, they're like my dad's generation. And so this is like an absolute critical time for us to be doing this language revitalization, and preservation and revitalization. You know, one of the things, one of the complicated things too is because we had four centuries of Spanish colonization, so much of our language has Spanish influence. So there's a lot of words. So gender comes in [from the Spanish], you know, so like saying, Maestro, Maestra, you know, instead of like, those are gender terms of like a teacher [in Spanish], but in Chamorro it's like Fafa'na'gue, you know, it's like someone who teaches and it's gender neutral. You know, there's, there's things like that in terms of like, of preserving, you know, our, our concepts of gender neutrality. 00:52:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000 I mean, one is that, you know, there's like Nana and Tata, like those are inherited terms, because prior to colonization, you know, there was, Saina was an elder, Che'lu was a sibling, and then like Patgon was a child. And so yes, you had a biological mother and father, but every elder was responsible for like caring for the children, you know, and every person your age was your sibling. And so there's that type of like, yes, that's language, but there's a worldview that exists, within understanding that framework, of like, just because we're not blood doesn't mean -- whether you're my blood relative or not, you're still an elder that I respect that I can go to, that I can count on that I also have a responsibility of caring for. Another example, you know, for Spanish, like paz is, you know, like if you're looking up like in the dictionary, like probably like the word for peace in Chamorro, but that's, that's inherited from Spanish. 00:53:03.000 --> 00:54:16.000 But [speaking in Chamorro language] that's actually like the, [speaking Chamorro language] means like "from the land." That's like the, the root of all of our Chamorro language that existed pre colonization. Hinagung is I believe breath. And so [speaking in Chamorro language] is peace. And so just like to understand those cultural concepts of like, we find peace in our breath, you know, there's, there's just these really deep spiritually culturally significant things that, come with like learning the language that -- and there's things just like, you know, the way I'm trying to parse the concepts of like mutual aid and reciprocity, like those are like the closest things that we can try to use English to explain, but there's a felt sense of Inafa'maolek like an, Inafa'maolek of like caring for each other. That is a felt embodied value and practice, cultural practice, that you can't get from speaking English. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:55:20.000 It's just, it's so critical that we learn the language and keep it alive and teach it to -- And then for me, so that's just in terms of like, in this realm, like in like of thinking ancestral reverence practices, that's another major reason I was motivated to learn the language is like I almost lost my dad in 2019. And part of my belief system is that, is to do that ancestral lineage healing is that we need to like call upon our like, well and elevated ancestors, so our ancestors that didn't experience any of this intergenerational trauma, and we ask them for their blessings to come down the lineage to heal everybody in between like me as the anchor and them as the well and elevated ancestor for us to heal that lineage. And you know, like, yes, there, I think there's prayers can be said and felt in a spiritual -- can be expressed in a spiritual sense and understood in a spiritual sense. 00:55:20.000 --> 00:56:18.000 And I think there's a critical, a thing that I, I won't even be able to explain until I become an ancestor myself, of praying, for ancestors in our mother language that just, you know. So for me, as I prepare for my dad to transition, 'cause he's 83, you know.We're all ancestors in training, and his training is nearing an end, you know? I feel responsibility to be able to call upon the ancestors in Chamorro, you know, and ask for them to support my dad's, like transition into that realm, you know. To make his transition welcoming and peaceful and loving and easeful as easeful as possible that I living in this realm can like, help support facilitate with. 00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:29.000 I know we're running short on time, so I might ask one more question. Does [attempts to say Inafa'maolek ] extend across the diaspora, the Chamorro diaspora? 00:56:28.989 --> 00:58:20.000 And so that's, that's him practicing Inafa'maolek in the diaspora. And you know, there's people who, you know, they'll see that and reciprocate, but a lot of times because that's not honored here, I think that's where a lot of Chamorros can struggle in the diaspora. Is when Inafa'maolek is not reciprocated. But, absolutely like if you see another Chamorro and they have Inafa'maolek in their heart, they will like take you in. And if I see any, I mean, that's part of me doing this interview right now is for that like Inafa'maolek of like hoping that someone watching this, you know, another Chamorro in that diaspora knows that we're here for you, you know, like Inafa'maolek exists in diaspora. You don't have to be back home for your people to care for you. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:28.989 Yeah. Yeah. I would say Inafa'maolek exists in the diaspora. That's kind of what you can -- for the like -- one way that I a quick story to tell about it was my dad was practicing Inafa'maolek, when he was a mechanic. So he really struggled [with] seeing mechanics take advantage of people, you know. Like up charging them for services they didn't need. So he started his own business and that there was a lot of conflict between my mom and dad. 'Cause she was the accountant, my dad was the mechanic. And, you know, if there was say like a starving college student or a single mom, he would go to the junkyard, find the part used, and then just charge at cost for the part and not charge any labor because they knew that mom needed her car to get to that job to feed her kids. 00:58:20.000 --> 00:59:33.000 And like, if you need support, we're here for you just need to call on us. Like, and we'll be there to support you, because, you know, one day we'll be in need of support and you'll support us, you know? So yeah, absolutely. Like Inafa'maolek is like the theme that unites us, like across all the diaspora. Actually I'll just like, if we got time. Yeah. Even during Typhoon Mawar, so that was the typhoon that hit last year [2023]. Man, if I had the statistics, we started like Inafa'maolek mutual aid and just within, you know, a few weeks we were able to get, two shipping containers full of water, clothes, generators, all of these needs that our relatives in the islands told us. Like we were able to get supplies to the most underserved communities on the island, before FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency] was able to even disperse like one emergency payment. And so, yeah, I know for a fact that Inafa'maolek is one of the things that unites us anywhere we are in the world. I think if there's like, if, if our people know that you're in need, like we will, like we'll be there for you. 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:40.000 That's great. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and, and talk to me today. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we end the interview? 00:59:40.000 --> 01:00:49.000 Oh, man. Yeah, the thing I'll just say is like, it's, I think, one of the things that really -- , I think both on island and [speaking Chamorro] like in the diaspora where they struggle with is feeling like Chamorro enough. I think just like if any Chamorro, any indigenous student, any Pacific Islander, and especially like any Chamorro, like if you're feeling like you're not indigenous enough, you're not feeling Chamorro enough, I just want you to know that like, that is the voice of the colonizer that -- I promise you're Chamorro enough, you're indigenous enough. Just you existing and you having your ancestors in your bones, you are enough. 01:00:49.000 --> 01:01:44.000 It doesn't matter. Blood quantum is a control tactic of the colonizers, you know? It doesn't matter how much blood you have, how light your skin is, how much language you speak, if you know how to make our food. You have that in your bones alone and you having those Chamorro values in your heart, that makes you Chamorro. That makes you indigenous. So, you know, don't believe the lies. Don't believe what any of those external forces that -- you know. You can just -- if you need that support, reach out to your community and ask the ancestors for that support. Because you are enough and you have so much to be proud of. 01:01:44.000 --> 01:03:01.000 We have an incredible -- the fact that you're listening to this. The fact that you're listening to this and that you're here is a testament to our resilience. And so you are our ancestors wildest dreams. And so like whatever you choose, whatever path you choose, whatever you do in your life, just know that your ancestors are with you and your community's with you, and they have your back and you're never alone. And yeah, the last thing I'll say is [speaking in Chamorro language] which is like the Creator is the Creator and we are people. so just, you know, there's only so much that we can control in this room. There's so many other things that are happening outside of like our mortal perception. So just calling the creator, and you know, calling your ancestors and calling your community for support. And I think actually we have time. I'll just like end in a chant. and this comes from, Si Jeremy Cepeda, and so this is called Manetnon Hit. 01:03:01.000 --> 01:04:02.000 Manetnon hit guini på’go, Na ta tuna si Ásaina, i Yahúlulo’, Nu i gef fina’tinås-ña siha, Nu i lina’lå’-ta, nu iya hita, Nu i mañaina-ta, nu i pa’å’-ta siha, Nu i guinahå-ta, Yan hókkokok ayu ni ha na’guahåyi hit, Taiguenao Mohon 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:06.000 [We come together here today, To praise the Creator, the Most High, For all of the great things they have done, For our lives, for each other, For our elders/ancestors, for our ancestral words of wisdom, For the things that we have, And for all of the things that the Creator provided for us, And so shall it be (Amen)] 01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:08.954 Thank you Alex. We really appreciate your time today. 01:04:08.954 --> 01:04:09.000 Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for, thank you for doing this. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:10.000 Absolutely. 01:04:10.000 --> 01:14:34.000 Appreciate your work. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White, Alex. Interview, April 18th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program hosted by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-082 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-18 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alex White Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam San Diego County (Calif.) Colorado Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alex White Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacob Peirce Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alexa Clausen OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 2022-04-12 Oral history of Alexa Clausen, April 12, 2022 SC027-15 00:51:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. San Diego County (Calif.) Alexa Clausen Jacob Pierce mp3 ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.mp3 1:|15(8)|25(3)|36(2)|45(11)|62(1)|84(8)|93(8)|110(2)|126(10)|136(8)|154(6)|164(1)|173(10)|187(6)|201(9)|211(5)|219(1)|235(8)|244(2)|261(1)|273(1)|284(11)|296(6)|308(13)|317(11)|342(5)|351(7)|364(3)|378(6)|388(12)|397(3)|411(1)|423(14)|432(10)|441(7)|457(4)|465(3)|480(11)|488(9)|498(10)|506(8)|520(12)|536(3)|550(4)|559(3)|569(5)|582(5)|597(17) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/45c2cfd31ca6068f7c1bbef6263d29e6.mp3 Other audio English 17 Background / Starting Adobe Home Tours Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Alexa Clausen talks about her education and career and how that has led to her interest in adobe homes. Furthermore, Alexa Clausen talks about how her background as a historian for the California State Parks led to her interest in leading adobe home tours. Clausen also talks about different home tours in Southern California which influenced her to start Adobe Home Tours. California State Parks ; career ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; volunteering Adobe Home Tours ; California State Parks historian ; Education ; Interest in adobe homes ; Working while getting an education 33.9806° N, 117.3755° W 17 Riverside County 336 Previous career with the California State Parks / Contributions to Adobe Home Tours Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Alexa Clausen gives an overview of her career with the California State Parks and working in historic preservation and architecture. She also talks about her contributions to starting the Adobe Home Tours with Tom. architecture ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Escondido ; historic preservation ; historical society California State Parks ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Historic preservation in the California State Parks 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 619 Getting involved / Why adobe homes? Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this ; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Alexa Clausen talks about how she became interested in wanting to focus on adobe homes and looking for others who had adobe homes for tours. Clausen then gives a historical overview of adobe homes and their significance in society. Furthermore, she talks the logistics of adobe homes and safety and building measures. adobe homes ; developers ; historical society ; neighborhood ; tour Adobe Home Tours ; Appreciation for adobe homes ; History house tours ; Looking for adobe homes for tours ; Scouting adobe homes 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 1223 Expansion and evolving / Collaboration Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” &lt ; laugh&gt ; We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Alexa Clausen provides a look into working with other historical sites and societies for Adobe Home Tours. She highlights volunteers being essential to the business of providing tours for adobe homes. Alexa Clausen also gives input about her thoughts on collaborating with others. adobe homeowners ; docent guide ; homeowner ; North County ; Pauma Valley ; volunteers Appreciation for volunteers and docents ; Collaboration with other homeowners ; Expanding Adobe Home Tours ; Interest in adobe homes 33.1581° N, 117.3506° W 17 Carlsbad, California 1634 Keeping history interesting / Choosing adobe homes Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Alexa Clausen talks about how she keeps the history of the tours interesting while catering to different audiences with different levels of knowledge on adobe homes. She also talks about the process of choosing adobe homes which they use for tours. Del Dios ; historic preservation ; Osuna Adobe ; Pauma Mission ; Rancho Alexa Clausen heading adobe tours ; Audience ; Choosing adobe homes for tours ; Interest in adobe tours ; Keeping the history interesting 33.3034° N, 116.9814° W 17 Pauma Valley 2252 Gathering Information / Adobe Home Conditions Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Alexa Clausen discusses the process on gathering information about adobe home builds. She also mentions how they approach original homes and those that have been renovated. adobe ; architecture ; builders ; career ; original features Adobe builders ; Adobe home historical backgrounds ; Craftsman era ; Growing Adobe Home Tours 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 2735 Adobe Home Tours Legacy Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Alexa Clausen talks about where she hopes to see Adobe Home Tours in ten years. She also speaks on the importance of preserving homes because they allow visitors a look into the past. adobe ; appreciation ; homes ; information ; North County Legacy of Adobe Home Tours 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral History Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Jake Peirce: I&#039 ; m speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour -- among her many accomplishments -- and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don&#039 ; t mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I&#039 ; m happy to be here since we only have an hour, I&#039 ; ll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master&#039 ; s degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master&#039 ; s degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son -- I had him late in in life -- so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn&#039 ; t too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn&#039 ; t have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary&#039 ; s in elementary school, there&#039 ; s another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who&#039 ; s just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He&#039 ; s Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I&#039 ; m like, no, it&#039 ; s not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, &quot ; Hey, you know, Tom who&#039 ; s collection of books here, you&#039 ; re doing craftsmen?&quot ; Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, &quot ; We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they&#039 ; re all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; [O]kay, Tom, let&#039 ; s do a tour.&quot ; And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won&#039 ; t this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5&quot ; x11&quot ; piece of paper off a copier, and that&#039 ; s kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It&#039 ; s funny, and of course I was thinking, &quot ; [O]h, he&#039 ; ll get over it.&quot ; You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don&#039 ; t own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn&#039 ; t. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there&#039 ; s a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I&#039 ; m probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were -- in your role with the state parks -- you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, --and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you&#039 ; re saying -- what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn&#039 ; t as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He&#039 ; s second generation -- grew up in Escondido through his business and his family -- they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes -- although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning -- in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That&#039 ; s my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he&#039 ; ll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that&#039 ; s absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don&#039 ; t mind. I&#039 ; m very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved -- especially in the beginning -- how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren&#039 ; t just like &quot ; Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.&quot ; This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven&#039 ; t thought about it. Some of it was Tom&#039 ; s personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, &quot ; Should we call this one? Should we call that one?&quot ; but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, &quot ; My friends tell me you&#039 ; re crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there&#039 ; s just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I&#039 ; m really taking a guess at this ; I hadn&#039 ; t really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence --the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour -- so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn&#039 ; t as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn&#039 ; t just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it&#039 ; ll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour, and I think they&#039 ; re on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn&#039 ; t kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, &quot ; Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.&quot ; So, I really didn&#039 ; t think about it and it&#039 ; s not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they&#039 ; ve seen their house, they get it. They really think it&#039 ; s something special. That&#039 ; s just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, &quot ; Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.&quot ; ? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this -- like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections -- is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it &#039 ; cherry picked&#039 ; the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views -- and many of the adobe homes have incredible views -- and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They&#039 ; re bulldozed for these -- you know, it&#039 ; s probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they&#039 ; ve reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There&#039 ; s no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it&#039 ; s almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our &quot ; Gee, you, you&#039 ; re not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.&quot ; Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather -- Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father -- they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don&#039 ; t know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn&#039 ; t, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor -- and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere -- and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn&#039 ; t the only place where Adobe houses were built -- and are built even to this day -- as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, &quot ; We&#039 ; re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?&quot ; Clausen: Well, I think we would&#039 ; ve loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you&#039 ; re a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we&#039 ; ve been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there&#039 ; s a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we&#039 ; d like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn&#039 ; t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do -- the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are -- but we&#039 ; re restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don&#039 ; t have the facility to make it happen, whether it&#039 ; s personnel or whatever. There&#039 ; s always a friction, there&#039 ; s always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there&#039 ; s the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, &quot ; We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?&quot ; Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady -- Mary Del May -- she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I&#039 ; ll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, &quot ; Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That&#039 ; ll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.&quot ; So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don&#039 ; t let people stand too long. &quot ; Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; We&#039 ; re like, oh, we can&#039 ; t sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don&#039 ; t like, suggestions, they work, they don&#039 ; t, we&#039 ; ve tried some things. So yeah, I&#039 ; d say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you&#039 ; ve benefited from, as you&#039 ; ve done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that&#039 ; s really been honestly, and correct me if I&#039 ; m wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it&#039 ; s moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people &quot ; Would you have your home on the tour?&quot ; They&#039 ; re shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here&#039 ; s some information, which they&#039 ; ve developed a little &quot ; Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.&quot ; And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, &quot ; Hey, do you want to be on our tour,&quot ; came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It&#039 ; s always a little growing thing. I think you&#039 ; re right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that&#039 ; s incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like &quot ; I&#039 ; d like to learn more about that&quot ; or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we&#039 ; re always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we&#039 ; re lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out &quot ; looky loos&quot ; : people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in -- for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people&#039 ; s homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested -- either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists -- they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden -- not by any means -- but they&#039 ; re there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we&#039 ; ve tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: &quot ; The Romance of the Rancho&quot ; where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they&#039 ; re close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we&#039 ; ve brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, &quot ; You know, we&#039 ; ve always heard about Pauma Mission and we&#039 ; ve never gone. It was a chance to go out there.&quot ; Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there&#039 ; s an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It&#039 ; s fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, &quot ; Hey, you&#039 ; re an adobe house, you can be on it.&quot ; Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We&#039 ; ve had some very simple, honest homes and then we&#039 ; ve had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we&#039 ; ve had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that&#039 ; s always a consideration, although we&#039 ; ve had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we&#039 ; ve talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we&#039 ; re really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we&#039 ; ve had homeowners who&#039 ; ve come back and say, you know, now we&#039 ; re ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I&#039 ; ll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area -- that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John -- our webmaster -- sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you&#039 ; re 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just go get lunch. We won&#039 ; t drive out there.&quot ; So we&#039 ; ve tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven&#039 ; t missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We&#039 ; ve had people who, as they&#039 ; ve moved forward, say we just can&#039 ; t do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn&#039 ; t get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We&#039 ; ve gotten two thirds of the way and we&#039 ; ve had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we&#039 ; ve had previous homes on the tour again. We&#039 ; ve had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they&#039 ; ve made changes. They&#039 ; ve learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they&#039 ; re not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there&#039 ; s been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I&#039 ; ve done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we&#039 ; ve gotten really lucky. They&#039 ; re walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they&#039 ; d come back as we&#039 ; re developing the history of their home, or they&#039 ; d get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we&#039 ; ve had a combination. I&#039 ; d say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I&#039 ; ve been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties -- they were told about it by the realtor -- the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they&#039 ; re looking at. I&#039 ; d say I&#039 ; ve done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don&#039 ; t wanna say they&#039 ; re not important, right? They are important, they&#039 ; re historical in their own way. But it&#039 ; s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they&#039 ; re just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I&#039 ; ve been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let&#039 ; s say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we&#039 ; ve been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we&#039 ; ve had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they&#039 ; re still there. We&#039 ; ve had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era -- Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized -- how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century -- we&#039 ; ve found the Weir brothers and others -- they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there&#039 ; s some amber inserted glass that&#039 ; s still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn&#039 ; t recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there&#039 ; s something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we&#039 ; re giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that&#039 ; s usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there&#039 ; s been extensive remodeling, we still recognize -- I&#039 ; ll just use Weir for example because they&#039 ; re so well-known -- some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven&#039 ; t really had homes that were entirely gutted. We&#039 ; ve had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That&#039 ; s amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don&#039 ; t even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it&#039 ; s kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we&#039 ; re always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone&#039 ; s happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there&#039 ; s not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it&#039 ; d be wonderful to run it two days. It&#039 ; d be wonderful to raise more money, but there&#039 ; s just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people&#039 ; s understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we&#039 ; ve done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We&#039 ; d like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you&#039 ; ve created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can&#039 ; t speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved -- this is something that&#039 ; s stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there&#039 ; s a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we&#039 ; d all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they&#039 ; ll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven&#039 ; t touched on that you&#039 ; d like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information -- he&#039 ; s very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he&#039 ; ll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there&#039 ; s a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that&#039 ; s interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we&#039 ; re out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That&#039 ; s correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It&#039 ; s been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It&#039 ; s been fascinating. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview April 12, 2022 Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-15 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alexa Clausen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Community history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. 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Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amy Spackman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. San Diego brewing;women in brewing;Mission Brewing;brewing industry;craft brewing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. SC027-066 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm San Diego brewing ; women in brewing ; Mission Brewing ; brewing industry ; craft brewing Amy Spackman Judith Downie sound SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.mp3 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 Other audio Oral history Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:33.000 This is Judith Downie, oral historian for California State University, San Marcos, on February 23rd, 2017, collecting an oral interview from Amy Spackman of Mission Brewing, and she has signed the authorization documents and has been given a copy of the authorization, and we will now be starting the history. (Unintelligible) These are just some sample questions here. You definitely don't have to answer these questions. You can riff off in any direction that you want. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:29.000 Cool. All right. So, my name is Amy Spackman, I live in National City and yes, I am over twenty-one. Thankfully. All right. (Unintelligible). Okay, good. So pretty much how I got started working with beer, I taught preschool for seven years and got really burnt being in the field. It was something I was really passionate about before, and then it just wasn't really doing it for me any longer. And I didn't feel that it was something fulfilling. And I was looking at, you know, I'm in my early mid-twenties, what am I going to do to change that? I didn't want to become my dad that is counting down until Friday and when the weekend is and dreading that and bringing on that negativity so early on. So I decided to just quit, essentially. My director was really supportive of it. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:02:28.000 I told him, I said, this just isn't working out anymore, and I need to do something that's more authentic. And, it was an interesting couple of months of searching, honestly. I found out that coffee wasn't what I wanted to do. That wasn't a big enough passion. Even though it's a serious love, but beer was always something, and jokingly, the kids kind of drove me to drink beer all the time, and I was spending more and more time kind of nerding out on those things and collecting bottles with my husband. And it just dawned on me, why not try to work in beer? It’s San Diego, It's--why not? So, just kind of randomly set out some emails, and I was hoping, you know, am I gonna be taken seriously, I’m a teacher? What are they going to see as a value for me coming from preschool that's already viewed as a daycare. How is that going to apply into a brewery? So that was a really scary thing, honestly. I didn't know what was going to happen, if anything was going to happen, am I wasting my time? 00:02:28.000 --> 00:03:37.000 And then I got a response back from Twisted Manzanita in Santee, which bless their hearts at the time for bringing me on, for giving me the chance to jump over and seeing that as a teacher coming into beer, I had organization and things of the sort. And so I did some office work for them and then somehow just drifted into the tasting room, due to people not showing up for shifts and had no formal training whatsoever on anything. I didn't know how to change a keg. I didn't know how to, I hadn't worked cash register since my first job when I was in high school. I hadn't done any of these things and it was just, you were thrown out and the brewers really taught me everything. And I think that was one of the biggest things I loved about beer was that no one treated you like you were lesser because you didn't know. And it was always a learning opportunity, and ever since I started at that particular brewery, it was always something I was learning new every single day. And I thought that was the coolest thing that it was a community and that you were all in it together, even if the particular place wasn't the greatest. 00:03:37.000 --> 00:04:54.000 They've now since gone under, which is no surprise, but finding Mission was one of the best things because I had gone out into that job search again. I thought, oh God, you know, was this a reputable enough brewery? Am I gonna be able to get somewhere else? What am I going to do? And thankfully Mission just really just popped up, and it's extremely close to the house. And there were so many opportunities presented early on. I really connected with the staff right away, which was really cool to see such warmth. So now I do tours, which back to the teacher thing, you know, managing crowds, being organized, timely, things of the sort that was really helpful. And so that was nice to bring those skills over into that side. So I do tours here, I bartend, and I am also in charge of our merchandise. So that's been really fun to have a variance in the schedule and also be so close to the house and be with this--Mission (Brewery) I kind of consider it my extended family. I'm here all the time, all the time, and everyone is really sweet. And again, if I don't know something I'm not afraid to go ask another brewer or one of the supervisors of another department that I don't know something about, and they're more than happy to teach me. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:48.000 And I think that's the coolest thing, is again, that community furthered. It's a little daunting sometimes being, going from a woman-dominated field to the opposite. That was an interesting change being like I'm one of two, but here at Mission, we have so many. Our offices probably got five or six women that work in there. We've got three female bartenders, no female brewers at this point, but it's just really cool to have that element going on. And I think that's just really cool. But it, it can be kind of daunting to prove yourself that, you know, beer is a passion rather than the aesthetics behind the bar pouring a beer for somebody that doesn't quite understand that you know about beer. So that's why I've really been interested in continuing school. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:06:38.000 So I've been enrolled in the San Diego State (University) Business of Craft Beer program, finishing up my last class for the level one certification in May. And then I'm gonna take a break for baseball season, because that's a busy season for us and then go back probably in the fall to finish up my level two. And then I just judged my first beer competition, which was really scary and daunting at AleSmith (Brewing Company). And it was a really cool learning experience. I'm looking more into getting BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) certified and studying for my Cicerone test, hopefully in December to take that. So there's really no end all in my goal for where I want to go with beer, honestly. It's more, I like having my fingers in different pots ’cause it keeps it--there's variety, and I like that. I feel like you'd never know everything, and that's the coolest thing. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:07:28.000 I don't know anything about brewing. I'd be super excited to learn more about that. But yeah, the whole reason behind going to school is because it was something I was passionate about and because it was cool to finally learn something that was exciting. And again, you’d never know everything, and I've just wanted to get every beer book, read it all. I love obviously going out and drinking lots of beers at different places and every brewery has its own element. It's just a different family at each place, and I think that's the coolest, and for the most part, I feel like San Diego breweries are a big family and we all support each other in various ways, whether it's by sharing ingredients or sharing ideas, or just acknowledging that you do the same work. I think that's just the coolest thing. Um, yeah. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.000 How many years have you been here at Mission? 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Sunday will be my one year. So probably two years in beer now, coming up on two, which doesn't, it's really nothing. There's lots of people here that started real, way earlier on. So it's, it's been cool to jump into the school side of things to kind of make up for the lost time but it's been, it's been fun. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:08:25.000 And the involvement with the Pink Boots Society has been really exciting to collaborate with other women as well and learn about scholarship opportunities and network and support each other. I think that's a really fun organization. We just had a meeting last night, and it was, it was exciting. Big fan. It's neat to see the full circle of women coming back into beer, more in the spotlight from historical times to now that it's coming back around. And I think that's really cool. 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:35.000 Okay. So considering your, your educational process right now, it looks like you're planning on being in beer for a long time. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Yeah, I, I can't see myself leaving the industry honestly. It's not an option at this point. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:58.000 Well let me go back to Twisted Manzanita. Since you did work there for a little bit, did they have any women working there with brewers? I mean, since they're gone, it's kind of like, you know, to piece in a little bit of missing history here. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:51.000 There were no female brewers at Manzanita. There was a woman that ran the packaging line. Maybe one that volunteered once in a while on a very informal basis. And aside from our HR lady, that was really it. And one or two female bartenders, but they were just there to have a job. There was really no love kind of showing for beer. It was just more of a, uh, it was just definitely a job for them. And for me, I really liked to connect in with that early on with the customers being like, oh, well, what do you like to drink? Well, let me show you, let me teach you about this style. Let me show you that IPAs aren't scary. Let me show you that dark beers aren't scary. It was, it was cool. But yeah, Manzanita, there was no women there whatsoever. 00:09:51.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Let me think here for a minute, there was something on the tip, the tip of the skull and it's gone. Other than Pink Boots, do you see any formal or informal networking for the women in, in beer in San Diego? 00:10:14.000 --> 00:11:12.000 Pink Boots is kind of the main one. Um, I want to say, and I could be wrong on this. I know inside QUAFF (Quality Ale & Fermentation Society), the homebrewer society, I want to say there's one called Suds that's for women, but I haven't broken into the home brew community myself. So I'm, I'm really unsure on that, but that's something that I'd like to explore, but in order to brew, there's lots of there are home brew, um, there's lots of things that need to happen first. Like making space in our house and having an entire day off to make the beer for the first time. But I don't know if I'd ever want to open my own brewery, honestly. Once my husband gets out of the military, we're looking at, you know, making beer more frequently, ‘cause he'd have more time, but at the point of San Diego’s saturation with breweries, I don't know if I would be bold enough to believe that our short term home brewing would be good enough to open a place. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.000 So does, does your husband brew? 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:31.000 We are gonna, we have the beginnings of a, of a brew system, but we haven't done it yet. Um, it's ready to go just when both of us have the same day off and an eight-hour chunk of time, which, it's been awhile. 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:46.000 Oh yeah. Martin at Quantum (Brewing) invited me to come down ‘cause I met him and I said, I don’t really, I don’t understand the brewing process. What’s actually entailed. So he said, come on down one morning when I’m brewing. And I went down and I was just like, oh, this is a lot more than I thought. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:56.000 The homebrewing element, that’s a little scary. I can watch the guys do it all day, and I get the gist of it. But as far as making it actually happen in the kitchen, that's a little more frightening. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:08.000 It seemed like there was a lot of watching temperatures and a lot more carefulness to it than I would have thought because of just my lack of knowledge about the brewing process. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:42.000 Much more science oriented, much more math, which the two of those things are not my strong points. Which is why I'm letting everyone else brew. I’ll help you name a beer. I'll do more of the artsy side of things. But one of my favorite things, though, about brewing here, watching them at least, is coming in and the smell of the brewery. It's the most beautiful smell. Nothing bad can happen to you when that smell is going on. It's, it's just magical. Love that. That's my favorite. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:13:22.000 And then as far as any mentors, like I said, pretty much everybody in all different departments have, I mean, whether it's been at Manzanita or at Mission, everyone's been so great extending a hand or explaining what their positions are, like, how to overcome something that's challenging or encouraging you to continue on with school. There's, it's just kind of been a work of everybody. And I think that's really nice to be around, such a supportive, positive environment. And even on the worst day, it's beer at the end of the day. And just kinda reminds me to really appreciate what we're doing. 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 Okay. I remembered the question I had. You mentioned QUAFF and not breaking into that yet. So from your perspective, do you see not an adversarial position, but a division between QUAFF as a home brewer group and you know, the more professional, professionally-focused groups? 00:13:43.000 --> 00:14:07.000 I mean, there's definitely a lot of professionals are in QUAFF. I want to say, I think it's Jeff (Wiederkehr) from Burning Beard he's in that as well. So a lot of the pro brewers are in QUAFF as well, kind of supporting the people starting out in their kitchens and things of the sort. So again, all comes back to that support system. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Because I haven't reached out to QUAFF yet. I mean, I've seen, uh, Sheldon Kaplan's SUDS documentary (SUDS COUNTY, USA) where he relies a lot on QUAFF members. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Okay. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:15:20.000 Because that was done in 2000, I can't remember the exact date, but it was really kind of before a lot of the commercial breweries opened up. So he didn't have a huge body of those people to go to, although he did interview Peter (Zien) and Skip (Virgilio) and a lot of the other, the other originals, the long-termers, but he didn't, he didn't get to the newer people. And I'm, I will say I'm really thrilled to see the Mission name, because when I came to Pink Boots, and I talked about Katherine Zitt, poor woman, her unfortunate name, um, her husband did own Mission Brewing for a while. Interesting. And, of course, that was all pre-prohibition, but he did have San Diego Consolidated and Mission, he purchased later, but it was always with a group of investors. So he wasn't the solo owner, but you know, I'm like, “Oh good. You know, this ties back to Kate and you know, my pre-prohibition brewing.” 00:15:20.000 --> 00:16:10.000 It's really cool. Um, I've always been kind of a nerd for history, honestly. Um, I think it's just really cool, and being born and raised in San Diego, it's, it's really neat to be a part of one of the originals, um, and be able to explain that it's one of my, when I give our tours, that's one of my favorite parts to explain that to people, um, besides the brewing process, it's the history and how it came back. And, um, it's just cool that it's, it's still in existence. And, um, every customer has been just in awe that the name’s, you know, been revived and the building is really cool. Everyone thinks that's where we are over off of Washington. We're not. And it's cool to say we haven't been in that space since 1919 ‘cause prohibition. And, um, it's just really cool. It's, it's neat that both these buildings are still standing, um, and haven't been smushed over for condos or a stadium— 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:32.000 It would be wonderful if Mission could get back to the original building. That would be really, really cool because so many of our buildings are gone. It's, it's real sad. And so for me, as a historian, to see things like that gone, I get real, there's goes another piece of our history. Now, have you looked at the BEERology exhibit at the Museum of Man? What did you think of that? 00:16:32.000 --> 00:17:51.000 Yeah. Um, I thought it was a little small, um, but small is not always bad. Uh, I felt like there was a lot of things that kind of were left out. I mean, especially could have been more of an ode to modern day, um, beer and, um, I just, I feel like it could have been a lot more, uh, female centered for sure. Um, it was just, it was, it was a neat exhibit. I think it's really a, it's a really good start. Um, I feel like there's a lot more to go and always things to add, um, especially for how long beer has been around and how many, I mean, I, I feel like it did a really good job showcasing the different cultural varieties of traditional beers, but there's a lot more that could have been added to that, and beer’s everywhere, um, on, in all different countries. And, and I feel like it kind of only focused on, um, more Latin America and their influence in making beer. I would've liked to see more European influence of, you know, the alewives and things. Um, and yeah, again, more, more modern acknowledgements to San Diego’s roots, since it is featured at a San Diego museum. 00:17:51.000 --> 00:18:52.000 Have you ever been to the San Diego History Center and looked at their (exhibit) ‘cause they actually did an exhibit in 2013 on craft beer, or beer brewing, in San Diego. Their remnants of the online exhibit are still up there. Cool. But I've actually been into the materials because Jane Connelly, the archivist there has kind of kept everything. Those are the materials I've been mining for information about the women in San Diego beer, because there's really not much of anything else. And in the San Diego History Journal, which is available for free online, um, Ernie Liwag has written a couple of articles. The second one was really kind of a recap of his first, but it did have a little bit more information, but it's interesting because he doesn't mention women. It's just, you know, he does talk about Mission. He does talk about, you know, brewing and the effect of prohibition and stuff, but, uh, yeah, it's uh, so that's, that's real fun to, to mine that for interesting things. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:20:24.000 And then of course that's part of what we want to do with the Brewchive is save the history of what's going on in San Diego brewing and North County, including North County working with the San Diego region. But of course, with my focus on women's history, I'm like, you know, “I got to get the women,” because right now with what I'm running across with Kate is she's almost never mentioned anywhere. And she's not mentioned really in connection with San Diego Consolidated Brewing, except for once or twice in the newspaper when J. Henry her husband would be mentioned. And then, yeah. And, or, and of course he was always Mrs. J H Zitt in all the society pages and stuff, but what little prison she even had there. But I was looking to see, um, if there was any reaction to prohibition or to the temperance movement or anything, because as a woman, she would have been in women's groups. She was very active evidently in the floral society. And she's going to be running into women who are not going to approve of her husband's source of income, and the died childless. So probably any papers they had are gone. Yeah. I'm kind of hitting a brick wall on developing anymore about her, but it's been real interesting because absence says so much as well as presence. Yeah. So, yeah, but I'm just determined to not let our women now escape from us, you know that's, that's gotta be recorded. 00:20:24.000 --> 00:21:25.000 That's really cool. Uh, like one other thing I thought of, um, is with that career change, going from preschool to beer, um, it was really hard convincing some of the older members of my family, um, that it's a reputable industry, that it is really such a big impact in San Diego, that San Diego is very notable for their beer. Um, the west coast in general is notable for their beer, and I'm not going into a career that's just willy nilly. I'm not partying all the time, though that happens. Uh, it's trying to show those that wonder why you would abandon something reputable, as teaching, and go off into this. Um, that's been kind of a struggle to show that. So I think that's kind of my push for so much extra school, um, is to show the people that just assume, “Oh, you're, you know, you just haven't figured it out yet. You're just doing a job like this to tide you over, and you're just pouring beer,” and it's, it's bigger than that. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:22:11.000 And I think that's a really interesting point to bring up is the family support and the, the exterior perception of what the beer, the beer industry is like, the beer community is like, and you, especially as a woman in this beer situation. So thank you for bringing that up because that is not something I would have thought about. Um, so that brings me another question that I can add to my list. You know, what, what is your family or, you know, what kind of, not just your in-the-industry mentors, but what kind of support or reaction have you gotten from those around you that you love and interact with outside of the beer? 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:55.000 I feel like now it's, um, now that it's been a while and they see how much school has gone through and, um, all the resources when they come over, I've got books all over the coffee table. I think they respect it a lot more now. And it's, it's been really cool to bring in family, um, to show them the facility and, and explain, uh, veer a little more in depth, or to bring a beer out to my parents, they typically don't drink beer, or if they do it's, it's not that stellar. Um, it's, it's been really fun to introduce them to that. And I think people get it now. Um, and I think they see that it really lights me up, and I'm just really into it. Um, so that's been, that's always exciting. So anytime I get a chance to show something new at, the brewery, I'm like, “Oh good.” 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:43.000 You know, or “I can teach you about this beer. I can invite you to a bottle share at our house,” um, which we love to host. Uh, we have so many beers that we cellar, uh, we're needing a second and maybe a third refrigerator, um, ‘cause we have so many. And it's just fun to share that with people or, um, when super like, “oh, it's beer’s gross,” or “I don't like beer.” That's my favorite person to talk to. It's like, “Well, do you like coffee? Do you like chocolate? Then you'll probably like a stout.” And finding the parallels between food and beer has been cool. Um, it's made me want to start cooking, which that's amazing and cooking with beers is really fun. Um, it's, it's cool to find a really neat, uh, like smoked Schwarzbier and marinate a tri tip in it and then make that. 00:23:43.000 --> 00:25:05.000 And my husband's like, “Wow, when did this happen?” And like, it's weird. Um, it motivates me to do things. Um, but, uh, one other thing I think is cool is that, um, the breweries are expanding down into South Bay. Um, we recently purchased a house about like four years ago and being in National City in an area that was kind of a beer free zone, it's really neat to see breweries start to creep down in there. Um, Machete Alehouse (Beer House) is I think it's Ale House is the rest of their name. Um, but it's a husband and wife that own it. And she's the sweetest she's always really, um, great, um, always really welcoming of women coming in. And it's so neat to see it pushing into South Bay into communities, like you said, that don't necessarily, um, reach out for craft beer. Um, that a lot of the, my neighbors, you know, to their bits kind of go into the liquor store, and they'll buy like a forty pack of Natty Ice for $4, when they wonder, “Why would you spend eight bucks on a 22 ounce of beer?” Um, and it's, it's cool to expose them to that, um, and be like, “Hey, this is, you know, this is an offering at your liquor store next to you, try this out” And then, you know, maybe they'll get into the community more as well and kind of find some advancement. But it's, it's great to see it pushing into National City now. 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Do you think National City is, um, because of the economic basis or was National City just not legislated for breweries? I know that's something that winds up having to be done in every single city. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:46.000 I know Chula Vista was a lot more welcoming to the breweries coming in, um, National City with it. Um, when I was a kid, there was lots of crime. Um, it's slowly kind of fading out now. So I don't, I, it could be a factor of that. Um, of seeing breweries is more of an invitation for those activities to go on. But, um, it could be a city thing. It could be, I don’t know. 00:25:46.000 --> 00:26:45.000 I mean, I can see a business person looking at that saying, you know, looking at the demographics, looking at the income level, looking at the legis—the rules and regs that the city has passed, you know. Is it a welcoming climate or not? Because you know, up in North County, I've been watching Indian Joe, I drive past Indian Joe every single day. And he's had his Coming Soon sign up now for a year? Or better? And, you know, and yet other breweries in Vista have seem to be opening up. So it's like, is it just he's had problems or is just, uh, did these other breweries that opened up--have they been in the process as long, but just not as visible as a big, giant sign on a building right next to Highway 78? Yeah. So I actually, one of our faculty members knows, um, the owner, and she goes, “Oh, and as soon as he's opened, you know, we'll go there and have a beer,” and I'm thinking, “Great, ‘cause I would love to pick his brain and see what's going on. 00:26:45.000 --> 00:28:35.000 But I know that Vista was very welcoming to a winery that was in Oceanside and then they moved into Vista and then they kind of collapsed and fell apart through no fault of the cities. But they did struggle a little bit with getting it there, even though Vista was supporting them to move in. It was like once they started trying to actually go through the process, it wasn't all that simple. And so, and I know the SUDS documentary there is mentioned in there. I think it was Skip Virgilio. But I'm not, I could be wrong, was saying how, when he went to get licenses or no, it was Chris Kramer of Karl Strauss. He said, “When we went to get licensed, you know, the city didn't know what to do with us. And we said well, what's Alpine doing or whoever it was?” And they didn't know that because nobody had ever gone to get a license. And so that kind of showed that, and of course, Chris didn't mean to expose somebody else, but he just said, “Well, you've got one open. Why can't we do the same model?” It turned out there was no model because the others hadn’t followed the process. So yeah, the legislation and all that is always real tricky and something of interest to me because I also, um, we're a government documents depository, so I kind of like that whole legal issue thing and the constraints that our government puts on us many times probably for our own good, but in other ways it really stifles things. But then, um, there was another question I had. Generally with an oral history, I'm just supposed to let you talk, but it's like, okay. You know, questions are coming up. And I can certainly ask and, um, oh, the Cicerone. Tell me about that process please. 00:28:35.000 --> 00:30:56.000 Oh man. So I believe the, uh, well, the whole process of Cicerone in the beginning is the certified beer server, which, um, a lot of breweries require you to have. Manzanita was encouraging and paid for it. Um, all of the $80 that it was. Um, but it was just general beer keeping, um, basic stuff. Um, I feel like that should be a requirement for all servers to know, um, which most places will require it, but I think it's just great knowledge. Um, so that's the level one. It's a recognized level and it's kind of not um, and then the next level is Certified Cicerone, and that's when you can officially call yourself a Cicerone. Um, once you pass that test, it's about 400 bucks and I believe there's a written component, a tasting, and a practical. Uh, one of our girls here just took her test, um, for the second time, and, um, it's a lot of studying independently. Um, you have to learn about hop flavors. Um, there's a syllabus outlined online, about what is, could possibly be on the test. Um, but it's really intense. I have had a couple of friends take it, uh, mixed, mixed reviews on how they did. Um, but, and then the next level is advanced Cicerone, I believe, uh, which is cool. One of my, uh, girlfriends, uh, over at Modern Times, she's the only Advanced Cicerone in southern California as a female, uh, which I think is really cool. Um, and then up from there is Master, and that's the highest level that you can go. So a Cicerone is kind of the equivalent of a Som (sommelier) for beer world. Um, but, uh, yeah, that's definitely something I want to, to go with. Uh, just studying independently sometimes goes better than expected or not expected. Um, all, I think I'm going to try to take it once I get out of the SDSU program. Um, so I feel like I'll have a, at least a general gist to refer back on to supplement any extra readings I've done. Um, cause I'll remember it back from a class. So that's kinda what I'm waiting for, but yeah, Cicerone is definitely something that's in the sights for sure. Um, and once I attain Cicerone, I'd be interested in going on to the other levels as well, because like I said, you never know everything, and there's so much about beer, there there's so many different avenues that you can go down and, um, you just you'll never know it all. And that's the coolest thing. 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:35.000 And then you also mentioned, you know, cooking with beer and things like that. Um, something I've seen that I find very interesting is the, um, the tie of food trucks to tasting rooms and breweries. I mean, I realize it's a symbiotic relationship and the fact that the food trucks have to go get that health license because that's a whole different thing than what the breweries have to do. But, um, do you see that continuing, do you think that maybe it's more breweries are going to be going into opening their own eating establishments? 00:31:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000 Um, I mean, I know for us, everyone assumes because we're so large that we have a kitchen and there's also The Mission around the corner that serves the pancakes that everyone confuses us with. Um, and I have to explain to the customers, no, we're not the pancake place that's around the corner. Um, were the breweries having food trucks, a lot of it's, uh, licensing, um, that they can have a kitchen or there's not enough space. And it already is so costly to open a facility that extra kitchen staff and, um, again, all the regulations for health codes that would add a burden to people. Uh, so I think it's really cool to have the variety of food trucks and again, um, extend the community of support to, you know, expose another local business, to help out and partner up. Um, and also for the safety of the customer as being able to eat some food after they've had a few drinks and, um, hopefully manage themselves safely and accordingly. Um, it's always cool when there is a food truck at a brewery and you didn't expect it, or it's one of your favorite ones and you’re hanging out at the breweries a lot, you really get to know the owners of the food trucks and it's, it's kind of a fun relationship to follow them and support their journey as well. 00:32:45.000 --> 00:33:04.000 Yeah, I've noticed on some of the websites, they'll actually have the schedule of which food trucks are coming, and they'll actually say, “We're going to be brewing this, which we'll go with the food on that truck that day,” which I think is really wonderful. I've also met, um, I've talked to Johna (Richards) and met Tony of So Rich chocolates. Oh yeah. That chocolate. Oh my gosh. 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:10.000 They’re my favorite chocolatier ever. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:25.000 Oh, I had to email them cause I, I was at the Craft Beer Expo in Sacramento and I did, um, Dr. Bill's wine—or beer and chocolate tasting at 9:00 AM on a Saturday morning. And I was just like, “Really 9:00 a.m. beer.” 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.000 Sounds perfect to me. Sounds a little late for me, honestly. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:34:17.000 Then you mentioned, you know, that they were in Vista and I was like, perfect. So, yeah. And I find that interesting that they've tied themselves and it's actually, it's funny because now that I think about it several years ago, um, I knit, and Thursday nights to get together with my knitting group. And there was one woman in there whose daughter was making cupcakes with beer and taking them in to a brewery up in North County. I won't say who, because that was probably highly illegal because it was just, you know, home baked beer-infused cupcakes, and everybody was just raving about them and stuff. And I know her daughter didn't continue to pursue that line, but I was like that, you know, that certainly seems like something that you could do because up here, all these breweries popping up, you know, you can start doing, you know, baked goods with beer. 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:58.000 I love, uh, making, uh, the stout cupcakes. And again, back to I'd rather bake than cook. Um, but I was choosing a different beer every time I made it to see how it tasted and how it changed it. And then obviously keeping a beer for myself ‘cause I was realizing I was shorting the recipe because I was drinking it in the process of convincing myself to bake. Um, but that's fun, but I mean I'll bake, uh, treats with beer from the brewery and bring it to, um, the employees. Um, just as a thank you for all the kindness and yeah, Fall (Brewing Company?) has been requesting some more cookies from me. Um, I just heard from them last night. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:36:00.000 But yeah, actually, um, for one I also hike and one Friday, if we hike on Friday nights, we wind up at one of the local breweries. We were at Rip Current or whatever. And I brought chocolate cupcakes with chocolate coffee frosting, and everybody was raving about how good they were with the beer. And I had not even thought about it. It was just like, yeah, we want to celebrate Ken's birthday, and I'll bring him some cupcakes because he's a single older man that I know doesn’t bake, you know, and I just wanted to do something besides chocolate, although chocolate is always good. So I threw the coffee, instant coffee in there, and it was just perfect with the beers that they were drinking. I'm a very lightweight beer drinker. I don't, I think it's something that you have to work yourself up to. And when I was in Sacramento, um, I did get introduced to fruits sours, which were, you know, I was like, "Oh, okay. I can, I can do this.” It's not real overly coffee flavored or burnt flavored or hoppy or anything like that. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:11.000 Sours are kind of my final frontier of, of beer. Um, my first love was stouts because I drank an obscene amount of coffee because of the preschool. Um, and that was just, I could— 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:15.000 That seems like a real parallel level of a strength. 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:59.000 Definitely. Um, and I could, I mean, I just, I love stouts. Um, I can drink a stout when it's a hundred degrees in July, and it's just what my most favorite style. I always default to it if I can't figure out what I want on the board and that's what I go for. Um, and then IPAs were a slow venture in, um, and with working in beer, presenting beer to new people that don't drink it all the time or they're intimidated by it. Um, I thought in order to like craft beer in the beginning that you had to love IPAs and the friends of mine that were presenting these beers to me, they were so aggressive and so intense that looking at, if I were to give that same beer to somebody new, there'd be no way. Um, and I think that's why I shunned IPAs until I finally zeroed in on what are my favorite hops? 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Um, why do I like this? Can I drink more than just a sip or two of this beer? And thus it went forward, but sours, I'm still trying to keep an open mind on, um, uh, try not to shut out. It's a slow process, but, um, yeah. And then the beer and cheese, that changed my life. Um, I thought I didn't like cheese until I had it with beer at Dr. Bill's class and now I go into a fromagerie, and I just, I spend all kinds of money and it's not so much that I'm pairing up the beers with the cheeses, but it just complements it so well. And, uh, we led, uh, or I led a beer and cheese pairing here with Smallgoods from La Jolla, it's husband and wife who own it. And that was really fun to see the parallels between beer and cheese and explain that to and make it accessible. And why is this beer grade? And, um, she was able to bring the cheese side of things, which I'm still lost on, but, um, it's opened up a box for me. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:17.000 It sounds almost like you could very easily find yourself in, again, kind of going back to your educational background, into tastings and marketing and you know, a more formalized education environment with beers, you know, kind of like what Dr. Bill or, you know— 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:42.000 Yeah. I would love to teach. Um, I'm back when I was with the preschool, I always thought about teaching a children's literature class someday, um, just for fun. And, uh, once I get way more school to be considered anything reputable, um, I'd be interested in maybe doing something like that, even if it was just a community college level or just a workshop that, you know, we offered here. I think that'd be fun. 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Children’s books and beer. 00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:57.000 Um, I, yoga is a hobby of mine and, um, as I'm teaching my girlfriends, I say that you can either pay me in beer or you can enter a competition. And if it's a beer that I haven't had, you get an extra entry credit. Um, but I'm, I call myself the Craft Yogi and, uh, it's just the whole thing is we do yoga and then we will get a beer afterwards, which seems to be, um, I know there's lots of other females running the same kind of thing with the hobby yoga, and can't think of any other ones, but we just hosted one the other evening, but it's, it's great. Anything you can do to get women to drink beer. Um, so I feel like it's also a stigma of women don't drink beer. And if you are the only girl that orders a beer out with your girlfriends, everyone looks at you and I'm just used to it now, honestly. Um, and used to their, their faces of distaste when they try it and they can drink their fruity cocktails and their white Zin with ice cubes in it, um, I’ll just go ahead and drink my, my beers and be happy with that. Um it's but yeah, I've, I feel like it is a stigma for beer-drinking women, but I'm into it. Those are the kinds of ladies I want to know. 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:04.000 You're breaking the barriers. The stereotypes have got to come down at some point. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:41:01.000 Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And I, I think too, um, with that it's, I mean, I've at this point in my life, maybe because of the teaching, I have no desire to have kids, um, because I spent so long with other people's kids, but I also feel like that's something that would be, um, an obstacle to overcome being a female in the beer industry is it's kind of frowned upon. I feel like, uh, as a girlfriend of mine was, uh, pregnant when she was bartending at a spot here in San Diego and, as she, her belly was getting larger, people were kind of looking at her like, “Oh, you're the pregnant bartender,” like. “That's classy.” And so there's a whole stigma with that too, of how people view you and is, is that appropriate and all this crap. And I just don't want to deal with that, honestly. Um, but I, I feel like one, I couldn't give up beer for that long do this is I don't want to take a break, um, on a career that's like finally getting going that to pause and have a family. That's, that's not quite my interest. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:41.000 Well, you sound confident. That's what matters. Yeah, no, um, no, I, I can see the, the, the impression people might have of a pregnant woman working around alcohol. That, that right there, because we've spent so many years talking about fetal alcohol syndrome and everything else. And then, you know, unfortunately there is still the, the low-class cache about for a lot of people, even though when they come into someplace like this and, you know, it's like, “Get over it.” 00:41:41.000 --> 00:42:08.000 Definitely. Um, or I mean, stigmas of even bringing kids to a brewery. Uh, I think even though I, I don't necessarily want children as part of my family at this particular moment in my life. Um, I think it's, you can't shun out the rest of the community that, you know, they're, they like beer just as much as they did before they had kids and you need to offer an environment for the families to come and, um, make alcohol kind of less of a, uh, I mean— 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Almost elicit. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:41.000 Um, I, I look at European countries, and it's, it's so accepted. Um, and it's, if you make it a big thing, it's gonna to be a big thing. And I feel like if children are responsibly, you know, can see their parents responsibly enjoying, um, a beverage at dinner or something in the store. Um, they're going to have a, a less kind of inclination to go crazy when they get older. Um, because it's, it's just treated as something normal. And, um, I feel like a lot of the breweries that shun out the kids. Um— 00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:48.000 Well, are there any, uh, regulations against children being in a tasting room or a brewery? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:55.000 I know if you obviously have a full, um, liquor license, then you can't, um, there's a bar nearby that had an encounter with a family that didn't understand that, that you can't have babies around hard alcohol, um, at that particular place, um, some places will say, you know, after eight, you can't have any minors. Um, which I think is responsible. Cause adults still need their place to go and get away from kids. Um, there's one right now, but, um, yeah, I, I think there's a time and a place to bring the kids to brew, but I feel like it also needs to be a welcoming environment at the same time and not make the parents feel like they did something wrong because they came in to fill a growler and happened to have a baby on their arm. ‘Cause they're taking it to go. And it just, I don't know, but I feel like that's more of an individual brewery basis on their decision. Um here at Mission we're dog and kid friendly, um, over and beyond, we've got coloring pages for kids and games and um, we host lots of dog events here. It's they're all part of your family. So. 00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000 You need cat events. 00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:01.000 Bring them in. That’d be cool. 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:40.000 Oh yeah, she'd be real happy about that. She's a cranky old lady, but uh, oh, this has been great, Amy, you have, well, I mean, just your own personal story and then the things you've had to say about how you see your role as a woman, your place as a woman in the brewing industry. That's exactly the sort of thing I want to record. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; &#13 ;  &#13 ; &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Amy Spackman License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anthony L. Jackson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. SC027-32 2:18:08 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Military families ; Mormon Church ; Piracy -- Indian Ocean ; Racism ; United States. Marine Corps ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Houston (Tex.) ; Indian Ocean ; Oakland (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Stuttgart (Germany) ; United States. Africa Command. Anthony L. Jackson Sean Visintainer JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.mp4 2.0:|72(14)|107(6)|150(11)|238(14)|318(10)|378(6)|429(9)|478(5)|513(6)|550(15)|599(3)|636(6)|675(8)|701(7)|744(6)|778(3)|837(7)|886(11)|920(15)|983(7)|1022(16)|1047(11)|1097(18)|1155(12)|1211(5)|1239(4)|1286(11)|1308(15)|1359(3)|1403(14)|1438(17)|1491(2)|1534(15)|1577(4)|1628(9)|1666(10)|1714(2)|1746(10)|1766(5)|1841(2)|1872(10)|1906(14)|1950(3)|1999(3)|2022(6)|2061(11)|2091(3)|2124(4)|2167(3)|2194(9)|2275(11)|2301(14)|2328(13)|2395(13)|2425(8)|2461(11)|2492(10)|2558(16)|2602(17)|2647(2)|2687(9)|2745(9)|2776(12)|2807(8)|2872(15)|2921(18)|2971(2)|3025(4)|3119(3)|3140(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8e01398f12b5d84483867231d0d018cf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Major General Anthony L. Jackson, March 7th, 2023, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 43 Childhood and formative years Jackson describes his childhood, growing up in a military family that moved around the world, as well as his schooling, meals, and football recruitment. He also describes what life is like on military bases, and how he was fortunate to grow up at the time that he did, with opportunity provided by the sacrifices people made during the civil rights movement. civil rights movement ; Germany ; Hawaii ; Houston, Texas ; military base life ; military family ; Oakland, California 0 937 Father's military experience / Growing up in Houston and Fort Hood during the civil rights era Jackson speaks to his father's military experience and the challenges his father faced as a Black enlisted soldier, as well as his father's feelings on Jackson joining the Marine Corps. Jackson recalls the part of his childhood spent in Houston and nearby Fort Hood. He describes the segregated nature of the area, and participating in a sit-in at a local drug store. Jackson also recalls his sister's refusal to move to the back of the bus, fighting in high school and being picked on because of his accent, and speaks to his idea of equality vs. equity, using a metaphor for starting life with a backpack. enlisted Black soldier experience ; General Frank E. Petersen ; Houston, Texas ; racism 0 2290 Family deployments Jackson discusses his father's and brother's deployments, including why his brother was drafted to fight in Vietnam and his brother's medical evacuation to San Francisco. Butte College ; California State University Chico ; drafts and deferments ; Korean War ; Matt Jackson ; medical evacuations ; Vietnam War ; World War II 0 2515 Support systems for deployed soldiers Jackson discusses how support systems evolved in the armed services for deployed soldiers from his father experience to his own. Jackson discusses informal and formal structures and how military spouses play a role in supporting each other. Jackson also discusses the necessity of taking care of military families and how that impacts combat ability. Army ; Key Volunteer Program ; Marine Corps ; military spouses ; Navy ; Ombudsman Program 0 2987 Jackson's dating, marriage, and enlistment Jackson recounts meeting his wife, Sue, at San Jose State University and their courtship. Jackson describes interracial dating at the time and their family's reactions, and recall his ring-buying expedition which ended with a job. Jackson speaks to his work in the insurance industry, and decision to quit that job and enlist in the Marine Corps, and later to re-enlist. courtship ; enlistment ; interracial relationships ; Mike Anderson Agency ; Paul Barriger ; re-enlistment ; Sue Jackson ; U.S.S. Mayaguez ; Vietnam War 0 4116 Qualities of a successful Marine and a successful marriage Jackson describes the value of judgement and moral courage in making one a successful Marine. He discusses the value his older enlistment age gave him, and recruit training. Jackson also describes why he and Sue have a strong marriage. courage ; judgement ; marriage 0 4424 Working as the Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command] Jackson describes his work towards the end of his career, including as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command], where Jackson and his staff - especially civilian scientist Susan Alderson - were instrumental in getting MRAPs [mine resistant, ambush protected vehicles] to forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. MARCENT ; MRAPs ; Susan Alderson 0 5040 Working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, Africa Command [AFRICOM] Jackson recalls his work as the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics for the newly created United States Africa Command, and recalls in detail piracy around the Horn of Africa, and operations resulting from Somali pirates capturing of the U.S. cargo ship Maersk Alabama in 2009. AFRICOM ; Maersk Alabama ; piracy ; Somalia 0 5520 Returning to Camp Pendleton Jackson recounts a career fork where he could have gone back to Iraq to be a chief of staff, but instead ended up as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson recounts his previous times at Camp Pendleton as a colonel and his family's decision to build a house in Fallbrook while Jackson was deployed to various places including Japan and Iraq. Jackson also recalls getting shelled while eating in a mess hall in Al Anbar Governate in Iraq. Camp Pendleton ; Fallbrook, California ; Marine Corps Installation West 0 6078 Jackson's relationship with CSUSM and work with California State Parks Jackson recalls returning to the area and getting acquainted with former university President Karen Haynes and joining the CSUSM Foundation's board. Jackson describes not desiring to work after his retirement from the military, and why he decided to go to work for California State Parks as their director. Jackson also discusses the similarity and differences between working in the military and parks, and discusses his decision to leave California State Parks. California State Parks ; CSUSM ; Jim Mickelson ; Karen Haynes 0 7203 Camp Pendleton and military bases Jackson discusses how Camp Pendleton specifically and military bases in general integrate with their surrounding communities. Jackson also discusses how federal aid and military projects have an effect on the surrounding community. Jackson recounts a negative experience with an invitation to speak at his high school alma mater where he was asked not to wear his uniform. base-community relationships ; Camp Pendleton ; Economic Recovery Act ; federal aid ; prejudice towards servicemen 0 7757 Family history Jackson shows a family history album that his wife, Sue, created, and discusses his family tree, his father's prize fighting career, his grandparents, siblings and extended family. Jackson recounts his mother's side of the family history and their ancestor Green Flake, who was an enslaved man who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Jackson speaks to the presence Green Flake has left in history. boxing ; Brigham Young ; enslaved peoples ; family history ; Green Flake ; Jackson family ; monuments ; Mormonism ; Salt Lake City 0 Moving image Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2011, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.&#13 ; &#13 ; In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago ; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -- constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. &lt ; laughter&gt ; We were, we were poor, you know, and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-- Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-- Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what &lt ; laughs&gt ; , what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-- Visintainer: Could you explain-- Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-- Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. I guess, so. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military speak. Can't help it. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-- Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly is just that much better. But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they'd have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate to the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-- Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-- Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-- Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, &lt ; laughs&gt ; kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" I had no idea when. I said, "semester break!" Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, "Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -- football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop. I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-- Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-- Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," &lt ; laughter&gt ; , "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum &amp ; Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-- captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator. You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! Just make sure you win!" Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, you know, to inspection standards. We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-- Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-- here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-- Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-- Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! Then I got ordered overseas and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to, to arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-- Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-- Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-- Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-- Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-- Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-- Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. That's significant. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. Gently so. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-- Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-- Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? &lt ; Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap&gt ; . Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-- Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard ; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is, and this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my great-great-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother: her, my mother, her ; my sister, her right there ; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-- Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-- Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-- Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Visintainer: Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-- Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-- Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command United States. Marine Corps Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony L. Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany); Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC027 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony L. Jackson Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arely Ramos OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Ramos, Arely. Interview April 15, 2023 SC027-42 00:47:18 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Child care services Human rights California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign San Marcos (Calif.) Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Chula Vista (Calif.) Arely Ramos Seth Stanley Video RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-15 1:|20(7)|34(4)|58(13)|72(3)|90(16)|105(17)|123(2)|141(15)|160(11)|175(10)|187(14)|200(3)|221(13)|235(5)|254(3)|271(5)|284(14)|297(13)|313(4)|329(14)|350(17)|364(11)|378(11)|398(10)|411(6)|437(14)|452(4)|466(14)|477(10)|490(13)|505(3)|523(17)|538(3)|555(16)|566(10)|583(11)|598(11)|616(4)|626(11)|643(3)|659(4)|677(13)|688(15)|707(15)|723(11)|744(12)|754(7)|764(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/270e334876fd89f8a73a5766cff99dcc.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction Seth Stanley is interviewing Arely Ramos. 0 20 Ramos' Inspiration Becoming a Social Worker Ramos explains how her experience working in outreach and at health centers made her realize she wanted to do more for her community. Ramos' sister also played a major role in her aspirations in becoming a social worker. These experiences made Ramos pursue an education in social work and she has loved it ever since. Medi-Cal ; Family health Center of San Diego ; Social Worker 0 260 Ramos' Day to Day Tasks Ramos explains her day to day tasks as a social worker. She works with foster youth, homeless families and the parents of the youth who may have food or financial insecurities. She counsels students, provides tangibles, and communicates with the county and school's staff to ease the social and emotional burdens of the students so they can excel academically. foster youth ; Chula Vista School District ; Homeless ; McKinney Vento 0 438 Starting at the Cross-Cultural Center/ Civility Campaign Ramos describes what the Cross-Cultural Center looked like when she first started and how it changed when it moved to the Student Union. She explains how the practice of Social Justice and making a change for the community is what drew her to the CCC. Ramos helped create the Civility Campaign and was given full jurisdiction over the activities for the campaign. She helped create a safe space for students and a place for difficult conversations amongst a great diversity of students. Civility Campaign ; Social Justice ; change ; Cross-Cultural Center ; creativity ; student leadership ; workshops 0 1008 Inclusivity Ramos explains the challenges she faced as the center was often perceived as a space for a specific group of students. She explains how she helped increase the representation for various groups and how she helped make it a center of inclusitivioty for all. Since the CCC had such supportive staff and leadership she felt like this challenge made her grow as an individual. inclusitivioty ; challenges ; Asian Pacific Islanders ; Latin x ; Latino ; Pride Center 0 1232 Peer Mentoring Program/Favorite Memory Ramos explains how the Peer Mentoring program helped students not only academically but created a place for vulnerability and a sense of belonging on campus. Her favorite aspect about the Cross-Cultural Center is how it felt like a second home and how various programs started working together. vulnerablity ; belonging ; civility campaign ; mentor 0 1615 How CCC Helped Ramos Grow Professionally, Academically, and Socially The CCC helped Ramos learn how to create agendas, manage a team, lead events and take on tasks that would be beneficial to her in her career. It helped her feel supported academically and feel encouraged as she pursued her higher education. The CCC also allowed her to be vulnerable and learn how to advocate for others and to make a change. collaboration ; leading ; managing ; Social Justice ; vulnerability 0 2133 How The CCC has Grown and Can Grow Ramos explains how the CCC has become more structured in terms of their focus, exposure and resources. She explains how she hopes the CCC will start to partner up with communities and organizations to provide exposure outside of the university. This will provide students with the realization that they actually can make a difference and give back to their community. giving back ; community ; impact ; resources 0 2472 How the CCC Can Coexist With Centers Ramos explains how the center must not be viewed as a space only for a specific community but as a center that provides inclusitivioty for all. She explains the importance of centers that have specific identities but that the CCC must help centers collaborate and intermix at times. inclusitivioty 0 Video Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Arely Ramos for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 15th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Arely. Arely Ramos: Hi Seth. (both talking) Stanley: Thank you for being here. Hi. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Stanley: I guess to start, we'll just start easy here and just say, can you tell us a bit about your background and how it led you to becoming a social worker? Ramos: Sure. I definitely think it really started when I was a student at San Marcos. I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center it really wanted me--I think I just really, I loved it there, and I think it just really exposed me to a lot of different populations and just wanting to help people. And so my sister actually was also a big influence of me, of why I wanted to be a social worker. So after that, after graduating from San Marcos, I did become employed with Family Health Centers of San Diego. And I did a lot of outreach there. So I did a lot of outreach in downtown San Diego where I was able to help support communities and try to get them connected to Medi-Cal services and health services. And then I just felt like I wanted to do more. I was like, I need to get out there a little bit more and support, you know, the community and anyone that I can. So I went back to get my master's degree at San Diego State University where I was a Title IV-E recipient (provides two years of support for full-time students who complete a Master’s in Social Work program). So I was able to get I guess like a scholarship to work for the county for child welfare services. So that kind of led me there. And then I was an intern there and I--I was an intern with Child Welfare Services, and then I was employed there for about a year. And then I, there was just a huge need working with our foster families. I loved it, but, you know, the caseload is, it's a tough job (both laugh), and so I kind of wanted to work with the kiddos more one-on-one. And so that kind of led me to where I'm at now, where I'm a district social worker for, actually my own childhood Chula Vista Elementary School district. Stanley: Oh. Ramos: So I'm able to work with foster students and McKinney-Vento students, so families who identify as being homeless, where I provide case management and counseling services. So I love my job and I love social work. I think just how broad the field is. I just wanna help others. And so that's kind of how my journey led me to social work. Stanley: That's really awesome. That's really cool that you got to go back to your school there. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: And help people there. (both talking) Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: That's, that's a dream of mine as well. You said that your sister influenced a lot of your, your going into social work. Could you tell me about that? Ramos: Yeah. I think, you know, we are both very similar in, you know, what we like and just, you know, social justice. And I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center, my sister was like, “Oh my gosh, go for it.” Like, “That's such an awesome job.” And I think she really pushed me towards that area of social justice and, you know, standing up for others. So she was actually in Title 4-E, the same program that I was at, but at (Cal State) San Marcos. And so she's the one who told me about child welfare services and you know, I learned a lot from her. And so I think--we both were in the same field, and I think it's really awesome to have a family member who understands the field. And so she definitely inspired me to continue that route. And it was just great to have her because we both know, you know, the trauma that comes with it, the secondary trauma we're exposed to, and so it was a big influence. Stanley: Yeah. That's, that's really great. You, you work as a district social worker now you said you, you talked about it a little, but could you tell me what you do on a day-to-day basis? Ramos: Yeah, so I'm smiling 'cause I love my job (both laugh). But I think I just, I always knew I wanted to come back to this job because when I was an intern in grad school, my first-year placement was with the district, the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And I didn't know that a program like this existed. So I think just coming back to it now, I'm, I'm so happy about it. And, you know, a little bit more of the day-to-day is it--it changes. It really just depends on what goes on, what families we work with. But a typical day, you know, I would have to do counseling sessions with some of my students. And again, I only work with foster youth students and McKinney Vento. So students who identify as being homeless, it can be like living in their car, living with another relative in motel, hotel, shelters, or, you know, on the streets. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And so really I provide that support for the students with counseling, but I also do case management with the parents. And so that means referring them out to resources out in the community. Like if I can get them motel vouchers or, you know, tangibles, like sleeping bags or a little crock pot or something that they can cook in, gift cards for food, sweaters, underwear, hygiene products. So it really just depends day by day, because sometimes our database doesn't capture the families when they register at the school district. And so what happens is I really have to work close with the schools. So I'm assigned about six schools in our district. Stanley: Wow! Ramos: Yeah, it's a lot. So there's about fifty schools in our, in our district. It's probably one of the largest in California, but there's a, there's a team of now eight of us. And so we each have about six to seven schools to us assigned. And again, the same populations, but we really just try to support the families because we know if students are not doing well socially and emotionally, they're not gonna do well academically. So we're trying to remove those barriers and really trying to support them in that way, so that they can focus and so that we know we can communicate with the school staff and let them know what's going on. Even providing them bus passes or transportation. We really just want the best for our kiddos. So yeah, that’s a little bit about my day-to-day and I know I actually do have an intern from (Cal State) San Marcos, so I love that. It's kind of like a whole circle (laughs), so it's, it's really awesome. Stanley: Well, that's really great that you're helping out people. That's incredible. If you don't mind me asking, which, which school district is it? Ramos: Chula Vista Elementary School District. Oh, yeah. So my hometown (both laugh). Yeah. Stanley: Going back to your time at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), you, you had a variety of positions at the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center). Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Ramos: Yeah, I remember oh boy, I remember it. Being located at a different section of CSUSM, so I think now where it's at the Student Union, it wasn't there when I had started. It was a little bit I don't even know the names of the buildings, but (laughs), it was a little bit higher up. I don't know what, what it was called. But- (both talking) Stanley: I know at one point it was at Craven and at what point it was, I think at University Hall, I think? Ramos: I think it might've been Craven. Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot where honestl-- (both talking) Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: But I just remember there being like a big red couch (both laugh), and I remember, I remember we were in transition to getting it moved to the Student Union. And so I thought it was really cool that I got to experience it being there with a big famous red couch (laughs) because we were transitioning everything over to the other office. So I was there for a little bit, but I really was there when it got transitioned to the Student Union. And it was a lot more modernized. You know, our red couch wasn't there anymore, but it was still, it was still home to a lot of the students and to myself. So I thought that was a really cool experience. And I loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I was there every day. Even if I didn't work, if I didn't have a shift (laughs). Stanley: That is, that's so funny. I keep hearing about these red couches (both laugh). Ramos: Yeah. It's famous. I, we should have taken a picture and framed it in the Student Union because it was, it was a comfy couch. Stanley: Alright, moving on. What motivated you to apply for positions at the Cross-Cultural Center, and what positions did you hold during your time there? Ramos: I think what motivated me, motivated me to apply was just that social justice aspect. Like, I wanted to be a part of something that I could potentially you know, really give to the university. Like as far as creating workshops or I guess just sharing my lens and trying to really create something that maybe was still being developed. Because we didn't really have a full on established, I mean, it was in the making. 'Cause I think (California State University) San Marcos was still developing as a whole as a university, so I just wanted to be a part of something that I can try to help develop. And so I know when I was there, one of the big roles that I had was the Civility Campaign. It was like my baby, because (laugh), you know, there, it wasn't really, there wasn't really a, a huge foundation I think when I had started. So it was really just trying to create something with Floyd (Lai), which was the director and still is the director. But he, he really allowed me to be creative and kind of, you know, go with what I kind of envisioned for the Civility Campaign. So a lot of that was having like monthly, cultural, I don't even know how to say it. Just a lot of different cultural activities or events related to that month. So like Women's Herstory Month, Black History Month, Latino Heritage Month. So it was just a lot of those tough conversations that we tend to shy away from as students where like, we don't really wanna be involved in something that can create that tension or that people don't wanna talk about. And so I try to make it fun, but also have having that difficult conversation to have. And I remember one of the, the biggest events that I did have was it was a Civility Campaign, but I don't remember the name. I'm so sorry, my memory is so bad (Stanley Laughs). But it was, we did an event where we created booths. So we had, at each booth we had an activity. And so we, you know, one of the, one of the things was having the couches there and like picking from the fishbowls and kind of creating questions, difficult questions about how people identify or, you know, what their thoughts were on specific situations. And so, it really opened that dialogue with students to just kind of get out there and really just talk to people you haven't met before, but also learn about their own story and their, their upbringing. Stanley: Well, I actually was gonna ask you about the Civility Campaign, so I'm glad you brought it up. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: Would you would you mind talking about it a little more, like describing what, what the, what it was all about and what your role was in it? Ramos: Sure. So I, again, I think, you know, because it was so, it was still being created. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: There wasn't really a huge foundation to it. So I think we were just trying to create it with Floyd (Lai), with Student Leadership. We were really just trying to create those workshops and dialogues again, like I mentioned where we could have students have a safe space to talk about things that, you know, might be--create tension in the world. And so I think at that time we were really just trying to create that safe space for students and to have that dialogue where there is support and they can have a center to go to. And so I think the Civility Campaign really brought a lot of students together with the events that we would have. There was so many volunteers, and I thought it was so awesome because it was a brand new--and we had these bright green shirts. I think now the color is baby blue, so it's a little more neutral (both laugh). But I remember just like, if you saw the bright green, you're like, okay, that's Civility. That's a Civility Campaign. Or, you know, that might be an event through the Civility Campaign. So it, I think it was just a really cool opportunity to bring out different discussions revolving around social justice and what was going on at the time with, you know, everything so (laughs), I think it just really gave us an opportunity to create something new. And I think now they have workshops at the Cross-Cultural Center where the students can come in and there's different presenters, kind of like the little TED Talks. And so I thought that was really cool to see it grow. Stanley: Uh-hmm. That's, that's great. And I, I like that you were able to be a part of that. Ramos: Yeah, it was, it was definitely fun (both laugh). Stanley: Could you, could you tell me about your different positions at the Cross-Cultural Center and how your responsibilities may have changed depending on the roles? Ramos: Yeah. I think, oh, I don't even remember my first one, but I just remember being very involved with the Civility Campaign and kind of creating those events every month. But I also, you know, just the typical day at the Cross-Cultural Center like the, when I wasn't trying to plan events--I think at the Cross-Cultural Center, it was really just a space for me to welcome in new students. So, you know, being at the front desk, welcoming new students, talking to them about what the center was and you know, that this was a safe space for them to be at. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And so I think, you know, there was a lot of, I think at the time we were trying to get a lot of different kind of populations coming into the center because a lot of the students felt like, “Oh, you know, it's only this group that is allowed in here.” And we were like, “No, it's for everyone.” Like, “I know there's only one population that you may see daily here, but everybody's welcomed and just really trying to create friendships with strangers or, you know, students we haven't met.” And I think that was one of the important roles that we had being like the (Ramos makes air quotations) receptionist, I guess you can say at the Cross-Cultural Center. I remember it being very known for like, “Oh, I heard this center, you can print for free here for like essays.” And I was like, “Oh, that's not what, it's just about” (both laugh), you know? So I think just really trying to have those conversations with students and letting them know, it's more than just a place where you can print. And so we really, I think my role was really just to create that safe space for students and to really welcome them there at the center. And introducing them to other students. I know sometimes we would have students come in a lot, but to study or even just hang out on the couches were, which weren't as comfy as the red couches, but (Stanley laughs) they would hang out in there and we would really try our best to feel everybody, make everyone feel welcomed, whoever came in. Stanley: That's, yeah. That's good. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. You mentioned that people thought that it was for one group of people. Who were the people coming in most commonly to the Cross-Cultural Center during your time there? Ramos: Yeah, I think it was--I would wanna say there was a lot of you know, people who identify as being a part of the Asian community at the time. And so I think we--different groups from like Greek Life who were a part of different, sororities or fraternities would come in. And we really wanted to make sure people didn't think, those are the only people who are welcomed here. And I think we were really trying to take that, like, stigma away from our students. And so I think we, I think we did a great job. But, you know, we wanted--we didn't want people to be like, “Okay, you guys can't hang out here anymore.” Like, we're trying to get other people in here. No. It wasn't like that at all. I think we really just try to welcome anyone there. And I think one of my things that I really enjoyed as part of the Civility Campaign was the volunteers that we would have, I would try to , bring them in (both laugh) and kind of just hang out there so that people can see that there's a lot more than what is being seen and represented at the moment. And so I think, I think that was so important, especially because at that time there was also the Latino Center (Latin /x Center) and the LGBTQ Center (Pride Center) that was down the hall. And so we didn't want it to make it seem like, okay, only if you identify as those populations or ethnicities, like those are the only people allowed there. I think it was much more than that. And we were really trying to get that point across, especially the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, we really wanted to expose any type of student in there. They didn't have to identify a certain way or anything at all. So we really just wanted to open that space for anyone who needed the support or the safe space. Stanley: Yeah. Just all about inclusivity, right? Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What was a, what was a challenging aspect of your work at the CCC and how did you navigate it? Ramos: I don't know if I ever really feel challenged except for what I just explained right now (both talking). Stanley: Oh that's good. Ramos: Just to make it more inclusive, but I think I had a lot of support from Floyd and just the staff that were there. I don't think I ever really felt negatively challenged. I would say, it's more in a positive way where it helped me develop, like as a person and my own professional development, because we were tasked to sometimes run our team meetings. And sometimes that would make me feel uncomfortable but I'm so grateful for it now (both laugh) because I think that that helped me a lot and built that confidence. And so I don't think I've ever felt negatively challenged. I think it was more of that positive outlook. Because again, like I said, a lot of the students there felt the Cross-Cultural Center was only for a specific type of group where we didn't want that. So I think for me, that might've felt in that challenge in that sense, where I felt like, oh, I have this responsibility. I want people to go in there and feel inclusive. I don't want anybody to feel left out or out, or I want them to use the center. You know, just for those open discussions and dialogues and yeah. Stanley: Yeah. So just getting the message out there (laughs). Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: I know during your time at the CCC, there was the Peer Mentoring Program going on-- Ramos: Oh yes! Stanley: Could you tell me about that? Ramos: I love the Peer Mentoring Program! Yes. Oh, I love the Peer Mentoring Program. I think it was so important and I think--I think it was just a great opportunity to mentor those incoming students. I know I was a peer mentor, I had amazing mentees and I loved them so much and I still connect with them. I try to--I haven't in a while, but I still see them, like on social media. I think that's the new norm, right? (laughs) Just seeing them on social media. But no, I think the Peer Mentoring Program was so great, and I think it was just you know, being paired up, paired up with a mentee we were able to kind of help them and guide them throughout their time at San Marcos. So it was a lot of first-year students that we mentored and really just trying to get them involved. I know for all of my mentees, I would ask them like, can you help volunteer with the Civility Campaign? And (Stanley laughs) they all would. So like (laughs), you know, I thought that was such a great opportunity for them because I do feel they were able to meet other students. But even with the Peer Mentoring Program itself, it was just a big family. And I think we all grew so comfortable with each other and just trying to guide them with like, not only their academics, but I think just having those relationships with other people at the school, because a lot of them were either commuting or living away from home. And so San Marcos was our second home. That's where we would spend all of our day at (laughs). And so I think just creating that safety for them and creating the, you know, getting them to know, getting them to feel comfortable enough to get involved at school. 'Cause It can feel lonely, especially if it's your first time and you don't know what you're doing at a university. I know that's how I felt. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I doing here?” Like, “I don't even know what I wanna do with my life.” And so, I think just being really open with our mentees and allowing them to feel vulnerable was so important because they are--it's so important just to kind of keep students hopeful and let them know that they do belong here. Because a lot of the times it can feel like they don't. And I think that was so important a part of the program is just having them feel comfortable and also teaching them study tricks or having them feel--like teaching them time management or how they can schedule their day. And so it could be simple things like that, but I think it was much more than that. I think just having that consistent person in their life is so important because it allows them to feel like they belong. Stanley: You mentioned directing your mentees towards the Civility Campaign. Ramos: Yeah (laughs). Stanley: Were, were there, were there any ways, other ways the mentor program helped? Im--impacted your experiences at the Cross-Cultural Center? Ramos: I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time? Stanley: Were there any other ways that your experiences with the peer mentoring program impacted your experiences with the CCC? Ramos: I mean, they (peer mentors) would hang out at the center. I know that (laughs), I know they would use that space to come in and just hang out. And I think they really created a lot. They also brought in--I think the more comfortable they felt and were engaged and met other students, they would also bring them into the center. So I think that was impactful because they brought in different groups that weren't necessarily always at the center. And so I thought that was really cool to see for them, because they, at first they were really shy and then they started to really blossom (both laugh) and just bring in other students. So, and it was different students who were involved with other, with different organizations on campus. So I thought it was really nice to see that. And kind of make, it also helped the center grow because we were bringing in like our mentees and people from that program to be there at the center and to attend our events. And so I thought that was really important and it really helped the Cross-Cultural Center grow. In that aspect. Stanley: Yeah. Two, two programs working together. That's nice. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: My timeline’s, I don't, I'm not sure if the timeline’s--but was Jenny Ruiz the, the person running it at the time? Ramos: The Civility Campaign? Stanley: No. The Peer Mentoring Program? Ramos: I don't think so. I think it was Floyd. Stanley: Oh, okay. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What is, what's your favorite memory from the CCC? Ramos: Oh, I don't even know. I can't have a favorite memory. I think all of them were, I think all of it. I don't have a specific favorite. I think it's just a, I just--my memory as a whole is the Cross-Cultural Center because it, you know, the Peer Mentoring came out of that, the Civility Campaign came out of that. And so I think it was just all my favorite. Like, I just can't stop smiling because I just, I'm thinking about my time there and I had the best time there. It was my favorite. It was definitely my second home. 'Cause I am, I'm from Chula Vista, which is probably like forty-five minutes, an hour, not even far. So I'm just being a baby (Stanley laughs). But I think it was just really, it was my home. I really loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I still do, but (both laugh) at the time it was, it was so fun. I think I--it was just a really great experience. And when I think about my time at CSUSM, that's what I think about is just my time at the Cross-Cultural Center and the programs that came out of it. Stanley: Lemme ask, did your experiences working at the CCC, did they help you professionally? Or in what ways would they have helped you professionally? Ramos: Yes, definitely. I think I mentioned a little earlier where I remember Floyd would make us run meetings sometimes during our team meetings. And I remember feeling so anxious and being like, “Oh, I don't wanna run a meeting.” But I think it definitely helped me professionally because I-- we're not—at least growing up, you know, I come from a low income community and we're not exposed to that. We're, we don't have those expectations. And so I think the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me kind of get my feet wet (Both laugh). And so, I think even just as simple as running meetings, people are like, “Oh, that's not even that bad.” Like, you know, creating an agenda or running a 30-minute, hour meeting. But to me it was like, “Oh my gosh, I can't do this.” Or you know, I, I had so much anxiety. But I think the more he rotated us to lead those meetings it really exposed us to that kind of professional development. And so I think that really helped me a lot. And I think even just the Civility Campaign, like being in charge of making those events, that was huge for me because I've never done anything like that. It was really, it was challenging, but in a good way. Because it really helped me grow. And I think, you know, even just the computer tech stuff or creating programs, collaborating with other staff members who were part of the student leadership program, I had never done really those type of collaborations. So it really, I think that's where he (Floyd Lai) really planted a seed for me because I think a lot of what I do now helped me, or I guess a lot of what I did then helped me now because now I'm like collaborating with teachers and attorneys and different social workers. And so that collaboration piece was so helpful for me even to today, because I think that was really my steppingstone. And when you do go out into your career, you're exposed to all of that. And I think he (Lai) really helped me grow in that way. Which I'm forever grateful for (laughs). Yeah. Stanley: In a, in a sort of different way. How did the CCC help you academically, in your academic career? Ramos: I definitely think--I think just, you know, Floyd's support as well. I think he really accepted me for like, everything that I was (both laugh) and so--I think just he really, he really took the time to listen to us. And if, if we weren't doing well academically, like I did feel comfortable letting him know, you know, it wasn't the best time for me. I know I had a hard time academically. And I know I had to take a step back away from working at the center because the center, it was my whole life. And so like the Civility (Campaign) kind of took over and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I'm here for, to get a degree. Not to, you know--that was my priority, but I think I forgot that at one point while working at the center. And so I really had to take a step back. And I remember not being employed. I think I took a break, and then I returned after-- Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: --to work back at the Cross-Cultural Center. But Floyd was always so supportive during that time. And I think even the friendships that I had there. That I created when I was at the center helped me academically in so many ways because you know, I didn't, I--a lot of us would never think, especially for my community, we're not really super encouraged to go to higher education. And my family is so supportive, so of course they were. But I think the expectations of us in communities like mine, we’re not expected to go and pursue higher education. And so that transition was so hard for me. And I did struggle academically. I'm horrible at tests, even to this day. I'm not a good test taker (both laugh). I like writing. But no, it was a, it was a struggle. But I think just having those consistent people in my life like Floyd and the friendships that I had at the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me academically. Stanley: You mentioned, well, okay, you just said you were formed a lot of relationships through the CCC. Are there any, any friendships or, or yeah. Any friendships that you still keep in contact with today? Ramos: I do. Yes. I haven't in a while. Like I mentioned my mentees, I, I need to reach out to them. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: But I still have connections with them through social media, but it's just comments here and there. But I, they're still so important in my life. And even my roommates--I lived at oh my gosh, is it the UVA (University Village Apartments), I don't know if they still call it that, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Ramos: They’re the dorms room. I met my roommates there and I also pulled them into the Civility Campaign. So (both laugh), I just--anybody I knew, I was like, “Hey, do you wanna volunteer?” So, my roommates were also part of that. But yes, I definitely still keep in contact with my roommates. I actually just saw one of them a couple weeks ago. So it's awesome because you, not just the peers, but I think Floyd, he's--even if I don't talk to him every month or year, I know he is always there and he always writes my letter of recommendation (both laugh). So, so that's always a great thing. We've, he's kind of like followed my journey, which is really cool to look back on. And, you know, he's always been there for those life-changing career moves or, you know, just anything, I know I can always have him to lean on. And we actually share the same birthday, so we always, “Happy birthday!” on our birthdays, so yes, definitely still have those relationships. Stanley: Well, that's really nice. I like that you keep in touch with people even after all this time (laughs). Ramos: Yeah. Yeah. Stanley: The CCC and looks like the, it sounds like the Civility Campaign was a big part of your time at the CCC. How did these, how did the CCC and the Civility Campaign help you understand, well shape your understanding of social justice and advocacy? Ramos: I think in a lot of ways. It really, even for myself, I know I kept saying, it helped create that dialogue where like a lot of students may have felt like it was, there was a lot of tension. I think it really helped me be okay with having those discussions because that's how we grow and how we support the movement of social justice. And so I think for me at the time--oh, I'm so sorry. I keep blanking out on the names, but I know there, I think it was a social justice retreat that the Cross-Cultural Center had or hosted. And I think that one really moved me deeply because it was the first time I really allowed myself to be vulnerable and like even talk about, my own trauma. And so I think I think it really just helped me wanna advocate more for others because I know like what I've experienced you know, there's others who have stories and who are going through a hard time. And so I think just really trying to gain that lens to try to support others. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And I feel like it's helped me to this day because I'm exposed to that every day where, you know, the institutions and stuff are not always on our side. And so (both laugh) and you know, there's just this whole systematic injustice for our families and I see it every day. And so I think it really helped me to, it led me to where I am today which is what I love, what I'm doing right now (both laugh). But I, it's definitely helped me and, and it really guided me towards this path. Stanley: Would you say that the CCC’s approach to diversity inclusion has changed over time? Or has it, or has it more remained the same over time? What would you say? Ramos: I think it has changed, but for the better. I think having those--I know I follow them on social media (laughs), so I see--I keep referencing social media 'cause it's such a big part of our lives now, but I definitely feel like the workshops that I see, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head, but I know they host those, at the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think that's so we--I don't think it was as structured as it is now. And I think that's so cool to see it grow, because I think during my time at least, we were still in the developing stages of like, “Okay, what do we want the Cross-Cultural Center to be?” And so I think now it's like they have it all laid out. And, I think we were just at that when I was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center, that was still being developed. Like, “What is the program gonna look like? What are we gonna offer students and staff?” And so I think now to look back and kind of scroll past and I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, you know, “They have these programs” like, “Oh, they have shirts.” And I was like, I remember laughing and being like, “Oh my God.” I remember always telling Floyd, “I want uniform shirts at the Cross-Cultural Center” (both laugh) to support the Cross-Cultural Center. And I see that the staff have that now. And I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, just seeing how much it's developed over the years and how much how many, how many students are getting exposed to that. I think is so cool to see. And just to watch the center grow is awesome. Stanley: And I think a good follow up to this would be how do you envision the Cross-Cultural Center continuing to evolve and grow in the future? What role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity specific spaces? Ramos: Ooh. Okay. Can you repeat the, can I take one question at a time? Can you repeat the first one? Stanley: That's fine. Yeah. Yeah (both laugh). How do you envision the CCC continuing to evolve and grow in the future? Ramos: Oh, I think I would love for it to partner up with community agencies or organizations. I think that'd be so cool to see because there is--you know, I know it's very student focused but I think if we can get the students out into the community, and I know they do like the Ceasar Chavez Day there at the center where they go, they have students come out and help out too. But I think if we can connect the center to outside agencies and to support kind of bringing it back to the students' youth. 'Cause I think that's where a lot of the times, you know--in the work that I am in now, trauma really impacts where people are led to. And I think if we can get, if we can do, early prevention work, I think that would be awesome. And what I mean by that is, I think having students be out in the community or helping organizations, it could really help them a lot. Because I think they get to see that change and it's like, “Wow, what I'm doing can really impact youth or, you know, people who may have experienced the same stuff that I have.” But even like fundraising or something for students, and my mind keeps going to foster youth and homelessness because that's where I'm working at right now. The pop--but I think there's a broader population that the students can work with or the center can work with. But I just feel like everybody needs support. And I think--yeah I don't, I really don't know how to wrap this around, but I just, I don't even know what I'm saying, but I think, I don't even know (Stanley laughs). I just lost myself in what I was saying. Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: I just think the, there's so much potential for the Cross-Cultural Center and it has grown already so much. So I think the work that they're doing, if they can invite even the outside, like the public or I don't know anything. 'Cause they, they offer so many cool things and there's so many speakers that come up and when you go to those events and attend them yourself, you're just, you feel so empowered and you're like, “Okay, what's next? What do I do?” And so I feel like, I think that's the aspect that I'm trying to connect with the communities. If we can, because a lot of the times--when I know the Social Justice summit that I went to, I remember feeling so empowered and being like, “What do I do? What can I do? Who can I help?” Like where can I use, where can somebody use me in a good way for the community? And so you're left with like, “Okay, what's next?” And so I think that next step would be like, okay, let's let's get them out there. Let's help them support the community or some agency in some way. I think would be really cool to see, because you do have that adrenaline when you've learned that, you know new terms or social justice stuff, you kind of get excited, but you're like, what do I do with all this energy (both laugh)? So, that would be cool to see. I hope that made sense. I'm just rambling (laughs). Stanley: It did, it did. I really love your enthusiasm about, about the Cross-Cultural Center and that was definitely one of the more unique answers I've gotten to that question. So thank you much. Ramos: Okay (both laugh). Oh my God, that didn't make sense. I'm trying to tie it back together. Stanley: And the, the follow up to that question is what, what role do you see the CCC playing as it coexists with the identity specific spaces? Ramos: Oh do you mean spaces at the, at the ce--like at the Student Union? Stanley: Yeah. Spaces such as the Black Student Center, the Latin /x Center, LGBTQ+ Center. Yes. Ramos: I think, you know, it all comes together. And I think it's--I don't want, I think that's why, you know, earlier when I talked about one of the challenges was people only saw like a certain population coming in. I don't like that at all because I feel we all have experienced some type of challenge with the way we identify with ourselves. And I think having those centers is so important because it creates those safe places for students. But I think they all mesh--they can mesh in some way to like some degree. And I think because, you know, I think--I think it really, I would love to see them all work together. And I think they have in the past. I know we have when I was there. But I don't want people to see it as, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I could only go to the Black student Union if I identify as African American. I think, you know, it is a space for individuals to feel safe at. But I think I would want everyone to feel welcome and inclus--and like included. And I think coexisting with the other spaces is--I mean, it's been happening, it's been going well I think (both laugh). But I think just working more together or , you know, I don't know how it is now. I don't know how the different centers, how they're working together, but I think they can create something so beautiful and create events together where they coexist with each other. And I think that's, yeah, I think I can see that happening. Stanley: So the CCC sort of provides a, a beacon of inclusivity with all these other just sort of like categories (both talking). Ramos: Yeah. Stanley Uh-hmm. Ramos: Yeah. They kind of like intersect in some way, but it is important to identify. It is important to have those centers specific because, I think it allows that safe space for the students, but I think if, I mean, they intersect in some way. Stanley: And this is sort of a, a question I've been asking. Would you, would you be averse to adding maybe an Asian student center or (Ramos laughs) or any other sort of student centers? Ramos: I mean, sure. Yeah. Why not give everyone a center? Yeah. I think it's, I think it's so important because I think there has been a lot of controversy that where people are like, I don't think, I don't agree with, you know, the Latin( /x) Center having a Latin( /x) Center or Black Student Center or LGBTQ. But I think it's important to lay out, the different types of I don't even know the word. I think it's just important to, to realize, we have those centers for a reason. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And it's because of the experiences that those populations have experienced. Not saying like nobody else has. But I think you know, especially just going back to going back to everything that those certain populations have experienced, they do, it is important to have those spaces because of what was experienced with those populations. And I think yeah, I think--I don't think we should take that away (laughs). And I think that there was a lot of controversy of that at first where it's like, “Oh, well you guys are secluding,” you know, as much as you wanna be inclusive. Like, you're also separating that. But it's like, no, that's not the point. You know, we need to have those, we have those spaces for a reason. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Like you mentioned before, just it's a safe space for-- Ramos: Yeah. It's a safe space-- (both talking) Stanley: Or you can go to, you know, you to, to feel, you know, 'cause lot of the times you look around, there's not many people that look like you around campus. Ramos: Yeah. Uh-hmm. I think that's so important. Stanley: All right. Well we're wrapping up here. I'll ask one final question and that would be, what advice would you give to current or future students who are interested in getting involved with the CCC? Ramos: Oh. Just go there. Go, go show up. No, I love the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think the advice that I would give is just don't--be open-minded and just really--yeah, I'm already starting off with horrible advice. I think I would just say, I think I would just say to, for them to be open-minded and know that they belong and know that they have that safe space. Because they deserve to be there as much as anybody else does. And they will find a home there. So I think that's (the) advice: is just be open-minded and know that they belong. That the space is for everyone. And it'll open so many doors for them. So I think that's something that I would say, and I would hope they literally go (laughs) and show up to the center. Yeah, I think just being open-minded and knowing that they belong there as much as anybody else does. Stanley: Well, thank you for that. And thank you for coming Arely. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope I did okay. I feel like redoing the whole interview (both laugh). 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ramos, Arely. Interview April 15, 2023. Description An account of the resource Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Ramos also discusses her career in social work at the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-42 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Child care services Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Education, Higher Human rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arely Ramos Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chula Vista (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Arely Ramos Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ariel Stevenson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 SC027-02 00:57:14 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm Activism, Student ; Anti-Black racism ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Student success, Black ; San Marcos (Calif.) Ariel Stevenson Ayana Ford mp4 StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4bba51350f71895f7c2665d9240d7951.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Oral history interview of Ariel Stevenson, April 15th, 2021, by Ayana Ford, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 31 Childhood Stevenson talks about being raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, in a tight-knit community with a high population of Black folks. Warren, Ohio ; Farrell, Pennsylvania ; community ; small population 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 163 Black identity and conception of Blackness Stevenson discusses her early knowledge of being Black and the importance of her community center in shaping that conception. She reflects on a negative experience she had outside of her community. community center ; Black identity ; Black pride 0 ["[\"\"]"] 315 Impact of Black advocacy and social justice movements Stevenson reflects on her family as a key influence in her cultivation into Blackness and Black history as well as her civic engagement in her younger years. active ; activated ; family influence ; Sandusky, Ohio ; Kent State ; mayor ; politics ; civic engagement ; natural hair ; community cultivation ; Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter ; Buffalo Soldiers ; Karamu House ; Underground Railroad 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 594 College experience Stevenson talks about getting her undergraduate degree at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania. Upon moving to North San Diego County to pursue her master’s degree at California State University, San Marcos, she found racism that was reminiscent of her time spent in Ohio. master’s ; California State University, San Marcos ; Reading, Pennsylvania ; Albright College ; racism ; North County 0 [""] 681 Early campus spaces, outreach to Black students by Black staff and faculty Stevenson discusses the lack of campus spaces when she first arrived and the role of Black faculty and staff on campus in outreach to and retention of Black students. Her first position on campus was at the front counter, where she interacted with many prospective Black students and their families. Students lead the campaign for a Black Student Center, but faculty and staff encouraged them. space ; belonging ; University Student Union ; Clarke Field House ; Markstein ; Social and Behavioral Sciences Building ; entry-level position ; front counter ; orientation ; African American Faculty Staff Association ; Black Faculty Staff Association (BFSA) ; retention ; families ; cold calls ; welcome program 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1102 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation Stevenson speaks about how because the Black student population was small, it was important that Black students had a place to gather and be in community with one another. In this place, students could discuss shared experience amongst peers. Black population ; presence ; representation ; student experience ; peers ; gather 0 [""] 1272 Opening of the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects on the opening of the Black Student Center and the important ways that different student groups, such as students affiliated with the Latinx Center advocated for the Black Student Center. Jamaéla Johnson ; Tiffany Boyd ; Darniesha Thornton ; and Dani Thornton, Akilah Green ; strong women ; Latinx Center ; Black Lives ; Asian Americans ; Dr. Luke Wood ; advocates ; President Karen Haynes 0 [""] 1537 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Stevenson speaks about opposition to the opening of the Black Student Center, including calls for a white-only space and resistance to the Black Lives Matter movement. She also talks about the people and strategies combating the social tension. Daryl Smith ; white space ; Ku Klux Klan ; Conversations that Matter ; Dr. Sharon Elise ; Dr. Melina Abdullah ; Black Lives Matter ; social tension ; Gloria Ladson-Billings ; resistance 0 [""] 1831 University Administration's vision for the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how University administration attempted to work with students in designing the space and budget. She specifically reminisces about the first three women of color to serve as the Associated Students, Incorporated leadership. These women had to be persistent in the face of opposition. Dr. Lorena Checka ; assignment ; budget ; research ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Jamaéla Johnson ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; leadership ; women of color ; persistence ; opposition 0 [""] 2068 First visit to the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects fondly on the opening of the Black Student Center. However, the opening of the Center was not a panacea, and challenges continued to exist. celebration ; dashiki ; Black student retention ; challenges ; Black Lives Matter ; Latinx students ; Floyd Lai ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2322 Early focus of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses her excitement to be involved with the Center. She states that the expectation of some that the space would be the end all be all for Black students and issues was problematic. excitement ; Student Affairs ; Academic Affairs ; vision ; Black scholars ; Black scholarship ; end all be all 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2424 Initiatives and programming in the Center's early days Stevenson lists some of the early initiatives of the Black Student Center including collaborations with the intent of highlighting Black faculty and staff on campus. Black step shows ; Black Wall Street ; Black Panthers ; Hidden Figures ; Black Excellence Month ; Unity Hour ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; programming ; interests 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2577 Hurdles in the early days of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses the nascent mission and goals of the Center when it opened and how this could lead to conflict. Once again, the idea that the space could be everything to everybody was not coming to fruition. mission and goals ; inclusive environment ; pandemic ; identity ; conflict 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2727 Purpose of the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how the Black Student Center should be a hub for Black student success and those in roles that are working to make this purpose a reality. Black scholarship ; Black student success ; gather ; be in community ; facilitator ; hub ; John Rawlins III ; pandemic ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; identity crisis 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2991 Impact of Black Student Center on Stevenson Stevenson speaks about her love for the Black Student Center as a welcoming space and collaborative colleagues. space ; welcoming ; events ; collaboration ; conversation 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 3060 Future expectations for the Black Student Center Stevenson shares what she would like to see for the Black Student Center in the future, including a continued focus on Black student success and scholarship. Black student success initiative ; John Rawlins III ; collaboration ; scholarship 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3130 Stevenson's role on campus as Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives Stevenson discusses her role on campus as including the broad umbrella of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. She works with faculty to revise curriculum, creates and implements trainings, and builds relationships so that this work will be done across campus, not just in the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives ; Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Chief Diversity Officer ; inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice ; anti-racist ; implicit bias ; curriculum ; Faculty Center ; Ethnic Studies ; facilitate ; build relationships ; Dr. Ranjeeta Basu ; capacity ; President Ellen Neufeldt 0 [""] 3376 Stevenson's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project In conclusion, Stevenson expresses her excitement about the Black Student Center Oral History Project and her appreciation to the University Library for their partnership. institutional memory ; University Library ; students ; partnership ; research ecosystem 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] oral history Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Okay. Today is Thursday, April 15th, 2021 at 11:35 AM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Ariel Stevenson for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Thank you for talking with me today. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Absolutely. Happy to be here. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 I'd like to start by talking about your childhood, when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:04:46.000 Okay. Childhood. Born in Warren, Ohio, raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, super small population. The size of my community is not even three miles in Farrell, Pennsylvania, all the way around. For the size, population, I would say probably under two or three thousand. I'll have to look it up. Super, super duper small community. Most of the people in that community come from working-class communities, middle-income communities. At the time, factories and steel mills and those kinds of companies existed when I was younger, but those jobs started to fade away as I probably--by the time I entered maybe seventh and eighth grade. So, just a lot of working-class folks in those communities, right? Like when I think back on my childhood, ‘cause you surprised me with that question, I think about like being from one of the, they call them weed-and-seed communities, right? So, from the Department of Justice, kind of like the war on criminal activity and drugs. Right. Which is interesting because the community is so small. So, thinking about maybe even being policed in a community that was policed--looking now back then--but it didn't feel like that growing up. I remember just like football games and neighbors and fun and super love. And when you say community really being in like a community, right? Like parents knowing other parents really closely, looking out for one another, really tight knit, and most importantly for me, our Black community and with Black identity. I knew I was Black at a young age. That was super important for good reasons and when I would travel outside of my community, for other reasons. Like I remember being at my auntie's house, and we were playing kickball on the street, and this car with a Confederate flag, right, yells “get out the street, n-word.“ And then it becomes this whole thing in the neighborhood. I remember that, and I was a little girl, and so, you know, having that, even in the eighties, late eighties. Right. But in the nineties really just formulating who I was in my Black identity, because I went to a community center, it literally it was the center of our lives. My mom worked many jobs and so after school, we were at the center until it closed, and we did our homework there, and we wrote essays there, and we learned how to play chess there. And we learned how to garden there--guerilla gardening, which we used to like go to empty lots and plant seeds and grow food like for the community, right. Like the state or the government owned it, and we were like, We're going to take it back. Doing that at a young age because we had a lot of--when I was growing up-- there was a lot of Black pride. So, we had a lot of folks who were Africanists and being Black and proud and African identity, knowing that you were more than a slave was like super important in our history. That's what we were taught a lot at the community center. So, very fond memories of my childhood in my formative years, but definitely one that shaped who and what I am today. And that I'm proud of, yeah, super proud of. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:09.000 That's wonderful. That was actually my next question on how that shaped you. So, specifically on when it comes to the Black social justice movement, such as the Black Lives Matter movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the feminism movement, and the natural hair movement. How do you think those affected CSUSM and you personally? 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.000 That's a big question. [laughter] 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:16.000 We’ll start with you, like, how did that affect you primarily? 00:05:16.000 --> 00:09:04.000 So, because I came from a place where I was already cultivated in Blackness, and I say this, like, I remember being young and my uncle, my family was always active and activated. And so, things that they did not like in the community. So, the community where my mom came from where I was born, right. We were still pretty active ‘cause that's where my aunties, my grandmother, and my family lived. And then even though I was raised at another school in another community, you know, my mother, we were always back and forth. And so, I just remember, you know, stuff on the news where--I remember these things, Ayana you are recalling some things--like with the police pulling over this guy with a broken taillight. He ends up, you know, getting beat. I remember Sandusky, Ohio. And then I remember working there in the summers for college and Black folks having a very, having to protest in that area because of what was happening to Black college students. I remember my uncle running for mayor. He was going to be the first Black mayor at that time. And he went to Kent state, which is significant because I think during that time, that's when the shooting happened of a Kent state student, historically, if I'm not mistaken. My uncle, he's no longer with us anymore. But I say that to say like, so politically, my family has always been involved. I even remember from my civics class, being like the seventh grade and volunteering to count votes and doing the--this is how old I feel now--doing the chalk and writing the names on the board in the community center. And as it was coming in, really playing a role of like helping to count up the votes, where are we? Right. ‘Cause it's a small community. So, really every vote counting. I remember those things. I remember being like, when I was on, when I used to cheer, natural hair back then it wasn't as prevalent as it is now. But there was a--she's a woman now--there was a girl, she was a year older than me. And she was on the team, and she started just wearing her hair natural. And she was like, Why would I straighten my hair every day? And I was like, Why are we straightening our hair every day? Especially if the perm doesn't even take, like and it's a whole process. And I remember being seventeen or eighteen and wearing natural hair. And it was not the thing, Ayana. It was very much like, Why did you cut off all your hair? You know, people not thinking I'm not as pretty anymore. ‘Cause I had, you know, nice thick hair. So, all of those things, I had already gone through those things and those processes at a young age. So, by the time I came to Cal State San Marcos and even when I went to college, like I should say and also note I grew up--because I grew up in a Black community--I also went to a high school that was majority Black, my vice principal was Black, my science teachers were Black. And so, that's what I mean when I say I was cultivated. And when I went to undergrad, I had a very shocking, like Where are all the Black people? kind of moments. And so, what was good is that I was cultivated by my community, and so even though I was shocked in undergrad, I was, I felt prepared for the things that came with that and the experiences. So, by the time I came to Cal State as a master's student and as a working professional, that was seen in terms of like natural hair or what were the, some of the other things you named, Ayana? 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.000 The Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter movement-- 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:53.000 Right. The Civil Rights Movement, like growing up knowing those things. Just because when I went to the community center, we learned about the Buffalo Soldiers and then we would go to the Karamu House in Cleveland, and they would do the play. And then at the bottom, they would do the tour of one of the places along the Underground Railroad because it was built on top of it or near it, where we would do a tour. So, the Civil Rights Movement and those teachings were a part of how I was cultivated as a young Black girl and transitioned into my later years. And so, Cal State San Marcos, I was just ready for it all, you know, is how I'll say it. 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000 So, did you go straight from high school to Cal State San Marcos? Or did you go-- 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:39.000 No, I went to, I did my master’s at Cal State San Marcos. I did my undergrad, so I went from high school to college, and I went to college outside of Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, at this place called Reading, Albright College. And then from there, I worked for a year and then I moved to California because when you're from the East coast, you know, people talk about California in this way, like the sun and the trees, and so you're excited. And my mom, when she was younger, had moved to California--my mom and dad for a little bit--and so I had always had this fantasy about California. 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:40.000 Um-hmm. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:58.000 So, I showed up, and I was like, This felt like Ohio, politically and socially, at least in North County, where I'm located and where I stay. So yeah, they got the palm trees and the sun, but racism is very similar. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:18.000 That, yeah, I’ve been to the South, and I know that there's a kind of in that area. It’s very hard. So, have you seen, so during your time there, have you seen it like directly affect CSUSM and like the opening of the Black Student Center and stuff like that? 00:11:18.000 --> 00:14:24.000 Yeah, I mean the student would come, and they talked about it for a while. Like not having a space and not having a place and not feeling like they belong anywhere. And at that time, there was no USU (University Student Union), so let's just be clear. The Clarke Field House was the main multipurpose space for everything that we had had on campus. At least my time. I came to campus at year, 2006 to 2007? So, I've been with the campus it'll--on the seventeenth--ooh, it'll be fifteen years that I've been with the campus. Yes, my whole youth. So, the campus at that time, it was growing, like Markstein was like the newest building and there was no SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences Building), there was no USU--I already said that. Yeah, a lot of the building, there was no bench that's out there--that bench from the last president. It just looked different, and students would come to our--first, you know, I haven't always worked in the inclusive excellence office. So, my entry-level position was at the front counter, and I loved it because I feel, like I really feel like it's the gateway to students and families, and I would come, and I would see so many families and so many students. And I would interact with them prior to orientation because you know, we're helping them navigate, like what's missing on their application or if they have questions or the parents have questions. And so, that's how I first started to get to know a lot of the students that came through. But a lot of the students that were Black remembered my face and the other woman who was working, who was Black at the time. So, they would just come back because they remembered seeing me at orientation and whenever they would have a question, they would feel comfortable. And I would say, you know, You're here, we welcome you here. And whatever I could do for your experience to enhance it, to make it better, to help you navigate, I'm happy to do that, right. Because even, you know, you work your job, well--as sometimes on this campus as Black folks--you work your job, but you also work other jobs in this labor. And so, when there wasn't a space for Black students, the Black faculty and staff, we were the space. At the time was called African American Faculty Staff Association. And a lot of the programming is now called Black Faculty and Staff Association (BFSA) to be more inclusive for Black-identifying folks from all over the Americas. Right. All over the world. When they come to Cal State San Marcos so that they see themselves and their identity. Were you going to ask me another question? 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:35.000 Oh, I was actually going to ask you about, so early on, did you hear like a lot of the push for the Black Student Center? Like a center for students who identified as Black or African American? 00:14:35.000 --> 00:17:08.000 I felt like it was a push for, by students, yes, and led by students. But faculty and staff wanted them to have a space as well. Because going back to what I was saying is that, like, we just felt like the retention of our students, they were, they didn't, they didn't have anything. They didn't have anybody but us, as faculty and staff members, right. That's why I talked about, like, just being at that front counter and welcoming students, like that seems like a small thing. But seeing, like students have told me and their families, like, you know, I told my, I told my daughter, I told my son to like, you know, that lady, Ms. Stevenson, you find her ‘cause she's going to be helpful. She said she would help you. And they would come back. And so like, we became Black bodies at Cal State San Marcos became the institution for Black students. So, to answer your question, yes, students definitely led it, but faculty and staff definitely encouraged them to say, Yeah, you do belong. You should have a space. There's nothing wrong with asking for a space, yeah. ‘Cause we would even do cold calls, like Black Faculty and Staff Association would get on the phone—that’s how you know it's back in the day. And if students did not do their intent to enroll, we would call, we would have like a couple of days and we would split it up, and we would get in the office because, you know, we needed an outreach office or we used the outreach office. They would let us use it. And they would let us use their phones, and we will sign it for a few hours. And we would say, May first is coming. Right. Like right now. And if we didn't see it, We want you to choose Cal State San Marcos. We are Black Faculty Staff--or African American Faculty Staff Association--and we want you here. We'll, you know, take care of you. We'll love on you. We did, Ayana, we used to. And I smile because it's some of my best memories because you know, cold calling students, you know, we use everything now digitally, but calling them, a phone call meant something. Even, you know, twelve years ago, fifteen years ago, it meant something. It meant we want you ; we care about you. And you could come to us, and it meant to parents that they were in good hands, that even if whatever was happening or whatever their thoughts was about the institution that as Black Faculty and Staff Association, we were trying to dismantle those thoughts and say, No, you know, we'll still, we'll look out for them. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:14.000 That's, that's wonderful. ‘Cause that would probably get a lot of students to feel welcome to come to San Marcos. 00:17:14.000 --> 00:18:09.000 We used to have a welcome program. I still think we have, it's just a little different. So, we would, you know, we would call them and then we'd have the welcome program. And the admissions director would be there and all the key resources and support for mental health for all of the Black faculty and staff, it was like a big deal. ‘Cause then they would come in on move in day and then we would invite their parents because we wanted their parents to say, like, You can't say you're going to be accountable to somebody's child. People want to look you in the eye because then they say, You told me he was going to be accountable for my child. You know? So, and it helped make some of the conversations easier to say, like, they will want to know What's they grades? And we'd be like, FERPA is a thing, we can't just bust out and tell you the grades, you know. The students have rights. I know they're eighteen, and they're your babies, but you know, so yeah. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:25.000 Oh, my goodness. That takes me back to when I first got on campus. So, what do you think that the student and staff and faculty involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed from the Black Student Center? 00:18:25.000 --> 00:21:00.000 I think they needed a place to see one another. That because the Black population is small, I think we're under, still under four percent, that they didn't see each other--and I can tell you this--they didn't see each other until it was time for the graduation and recognition ceremony. So, so many times prior to having a space where they gather, they do this part, where they call open mic. So many of them would look back to their student peers and say, I did not know that there were so many of us here. If I knew that, I would have, maybe my experience could have been different. So, I think just having a space where they know that they knew that they were there and present, because presence and representation means something. To be in a place, where you can have honest conversation about your experiences because I don't know where else and who else could identify with their experiences except for them, and faculty and staff--they're still professionals, right--faculty and staff are older. So, even though they're having a very similar, or they were having very similar experiences, students needed peers to kind of like, just talk to and talk through, right. And even if they were having classes or being able to share and say, You know, I took this professor, this professor is good. You'll definitely pass and do well. They needed that system. I'm going to say they needed their own railroad because they were trying to figure it out in this way, being sparse and in between and trying to find each other. And the Center became this place where they gathered. I will say the Black Student Union at that time was like, was a big facilitator, as well. I don't want to leave them out. That was, I almost felt like the numbers for their participation was large prior to the Center, just because it was the only space for students to be together and to gather. But if you were a student that was at like Extended Learning (Building) and you weren’t on main campus and you couldn't make the meetings, right, because of the schedule, then it was harder. But now I think the Center being open and being a present and stable place, and a sustained place, now they just know where to go. Am I answering your question? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.000 Yes! 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.000 Okay. I'm like, I'm just on memory lane. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:11.000 We want--I want that. We want that. [laughter] So, were you able to attend the Black Student Center’s grand opening? 00:21:11.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yes. I wasn't going to miss that! I attended, I was there with the young women I remember, like Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffany (Boyd), the twins Darniesha and Dani (Thornton), Akilah (Green), such beautiful women. And those women, they really led, those young women really led the conversation for the space to be created. And I also want to note this piece because I don't know if people know this piece that when the Latin center, Latin (Latinx) Center was being built, a lot of Black students supported that space for the Latin(x) Center to be built because they felt like they understood, and then when Black students needed the space, a lot of the Latinx students also supported. I was at the meeting, the open forum where some of the students came in and they had the sign, and they stood, and other students, I remember some of the Latinx leaders at that time, they stood right along with them because they remember when those students stood up with them when they needed a space. So, I would even say that those two spaces really came about because of students' voices, because students wanted a space and because those different populations were advocating for one another, which is super important, you know, when we think about what's happening in terms of you mentioned Black Lives. It's important to see when you see all over the internet and all over the world that you see different organizations, you see Asian Americans standing for Black Lives. You see all the different diverse groups standing for Black Lives. That means something, especially with the experiences of Black Lives and what that means. It's a very unique experience. And other experiences have their experiences and unique--I wouldn't take away from them--but to even focus on Black, what it means for a Black life right, in academia. I think – what I know is yes, Black lives matter. So Black scholarship matters, Black mind--as Dr. Luke Wood would say in his whole movement--it matters, you know. Black grades matter. Black, you know, leaders matter, right? And then higher education is where they're being shaped. So, to go back to those young students, the women and the newer young men that came on working together to make sure that it was a space, it was a very, it was a very beautiful thing, watching as a professional staff member on the outside, because you see your students, you see them evolve, you see them trying to navigate and understand and understand what the policies are and create a space, and those particular students, they weren't trying to like be disruptive or, if, you know, they were definitely advocating to just be students who were heard and welcomed and having better experiences, and they weren't doing it in a way that was like--even when it got to the protest or protesting at the forum--it wasn't like they were making a bunch of like super, like loud noise. They kind of stood up with a sign. They asked the President of that time (President Karen Haynes), ‘cause it wasn't our current President, for the space. You know, and I always see, when I see those young men and women even now, and they always were just, they were organized and advocates and activated. But when I even think about what they're doing now, they're all in like grad school or in wonderful, wonderful jobs or even coming back to our campus talking about free speech. And so, to me, that's why it's even that much more important for our campus community to keep cultivating those students because they come back and they enrich the campus community. 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:48.000 Exactly. So, to go back, did you see any external or internal pushback on the creation of the Black Student Center? Or did you directly witness any pushback on the creation on social media or anything like that? 00:25:48.000 --> 00:30:06.000 I did not see it for myself. Right. But I just remember the conversations, folks were saying things like--ooh, actually, I'll take it back. I do remember, I forgot all about this. We brought in Daryl Smith to campus to speak about diversity issues. And I remember a small group of white students standing up during her talk. And Daryl identifies as white and does diversity work and is known in the diversity field and really pushed back on the students. So, they were asking for a white space, and they were saying that if we're basically going to make a space for everybody, like we want a space as well. And I remember her saying something like, you have, thinking like that if you want a space for only whiteness in that way that you're saying, because they were saying it in a very harmful way, is how she was and how she took it. And she said, Yes, you have a space for your ideas. Go and join the Ku Klux Klan, where you belong. Right. Like that was like, that was controversial. But just trying to point out the supremacy in that thinking and culture, the way that it was approaching and not really understanding the conversations. And so, there was a lot of conversations about what it meant to have a space. One of the things that I do in our office, we have Conversations That Matter. And so, one of the things that's involved or that's a part of the Conversations That Matter series is you have to have a call to action. And I remember we had one that talked about Black studies matter, because we needed to educate folks on, well the students and the faculty wanted to come, and they want it to educate folks on what it meant to have Black studies in Black spaces. So, it was a campus conversation on that to try to negate, I guess, pushback or to answer questions. Right, and that was great. ‘Cause it had founding faculty from San Diego (State), founding faculty from the African, Africana Studies program, I think from SDSU, it had, I would have to go back. Dr. Sharon Elise had led that conversation. Dr. Melina (Abdullah) from Long Beach, who heads the Black Lives Matter LA version, I think, was on that conversation. I'm getting people's titles all wrong. But the point is, Black faculty from the CSU came to support CSU San Marcos on that conversation because it was a larger conversation, I think, having--happening in the system around spaces for Black students. And, you know, at that time Black Lives Matter, this is Black Lives Matter. People were not acceptable of Black Lives Matter. Like now you see people like donating bunches of, a bunch of money or protesting together and saying, “Black Lives Matter,” no matter how diverse they are to my point earlier, but that wasn't the conversation nationally. It was very much like when you say Black Lives Matter, what about blue lives? What about white lives? So, that is the tension, the social tension that was happening, even in the midst of like, they were coming off of that, even in the midst of this space of higher education, you know. And centers in itself, cultural centers, have been a longer conversation historically, I think, Gloria, Gloria Ladson-Billings, around her publishings on cultural centers. So yeah, it, there was. So yeah, to answer your question, I guess, to go back, there was some pushback for sure. Yes. And resistance coming from--yeah, there was. Sorry I had to reflect a little bit more. 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:19.000 Oh no, please, please reflect ‘cause that's, that's really interesting, actually. So, what did the university admissions communicate was their vision when it comes to the Black Student Center, as well? 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.000 Wait, say that again? 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:31.000 What was the vision for the university administration communicating with their vision? 00:30:31.000 --> 00:34:19.000 If I remember correctly, I just remember the students had requested the space, and I think they were Dr. (Lorena) Checka and the President because she (Dr. Checka) oversees Student Affairs, was responsible for working with the students to kind of like look for a space, think about the budget, think about those things. So, I felt like the students were charged with making it happen, with the support of, maybe Dr. Checka trying to like help them make it happen, if that makes sense. But to be honest, I feel like, yeah, it was kinda’ like we asked for the space, the students, this is what the students had told me: We asked for the space and now they're making us do all of the work that administration would normally do to create the space. I think that could have probably been a little bit clearer for students because it made them feel like they're like, Well here, if you want the space, you figure it out, right. Where I think the, they were trying to do--and this is where I don't know for sure--but I think they were trying to be in partnership with the students so that the students also understood this is what it takes to create a space, this is what a budget of a space looks like, making them do the research which is okay. I feel like students need that scholarly, like this is how you research. So, if you get in a nonprofit or you request money or request a space, you need to know this information. But I think originally like just how it came across was interesting. And then even, you know, at the time, I felt like it wasn't, there because there wasn't specific ownership of the space--and maybe you’ll interview Tiffaney Boyd and she’ll have a, as a student, a better, she’ll have more to say about this. But, I remember, so, when Tiffaney was President (of Associated Students, Incorporated, ASI) and Jamaéla (Johnson) was one of the execs, and there was another young woman. I’m forgetting her name. They were, I think, the first women of color to be ASI leadership and executives, at that time, during their leadership time. And they themselves, as women of color, specifically Black women on this campus, was having some challenges just being the leaders of the student body. And, you know, some of the things that were just coming towards them was very, very interesting, like I was surprised, you know. I’m very proud of them because some folks did not make it easy for them. And they had some moments, you know. So, they had to be tough and strong, and they’re students, you know, they’re students trying to be students. But also trying to do this very important political and social thing for students futuristically, you know. And I don’t think that part of the story gets told. That those women of color, when they were leaders, they had some opposition for sure. And I think about that because, you know, whatever we could do to assist, where we could assist, you know. But, you know, I look at them, and they were strong. Whether they wanted to be or not, they had to be. And they had to figure it out. What was your question? I feel like I digressed. 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:28.000 Oh no, you, you answered it perfectly. (laughter) So, what was it like when you first visited the Center for the first time? 00:34:28.000 --> 00:38:28.000 So, when they had a celebration, in the spirit of it all was like a super proud day. There was a ribbon cutting, there was like smiles everywhere. People had on, I felt like everybody had on the dashiki or dashiki dress or like something to be connected to their African-ness and faculty and staff--not everybody--but faculty and staff, they showed up, supporters of the space showed up. And so, being in that space in the very beginning and what it meant because the people who've been here for a while historically understood what it meant to gain such a place for Black students, when Black student retention and equity gaps and all of those things have been a conversation for so long. And to have this, yes it was one center, but to have it, really felt like okay, now we're going to be able to expand the Black population and do all of these things. So, the spirit of that day, the spirit of that first, you know, year on the outside was interesting. I think that the people who worked in the inside, the students and the staff probably had some interesting experiences ‘cause I think that people felt challenged. One thing about when people focus on things that are Black, it sometimes feels like everybody has input on why it can't be focused on just Blackness, which is interesting. Anytime that Blackness is centered, and we see that right, with Black Lives Matter, right? We can't even say Black lives matter without something, without somebody saying, What about blue lives? What about white lives? And people constantly saying, We never said that those things were not important! We’re saying that you never deemed Black life important since day zero. And we are making--like the young folks are making sure that we matter and that we count and to see that is important. And so, when the space to say like, Yes, all students matter! But we are making sure that we say we recognize and understand the experience, the negative experiences that Black students have been having, and we're trying to improve those, is important, right? That’s why I mentioned, wanted to mention the piece around the Latinx students who support it because I think they understood because they also had some similar things happening in a different kind of way, but just understood when people say we are focusing on this population, and there is nothing wrong to focus on this population. So, I think that the folks who worked there when people would come in and they didn't understand what the space is for, and were like Why? Or if they saw social media saying, here we go again with, you know, whatever people were saying. I think it was a challenge to, for them. And I think it was difficult for them. And you know, they did what they do and as Black folks, they held their head high and shoulders back. But that doesn't mean that those Black students who are just looking for a space, didn't feel again, like, Why is this happening? Why are people making us feel like we don't belong? Why are when I talk about Black people, you're saying et cetera and making me talk about something else, you know? But I think that's important. And also just like and other people that support it. I feel like even the director, Floyd Lai, from the Cross-Cultural Center always has been supportive of the other spaces. Just that understanding and those things are important as well. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Yeah. Those are very important to know. So, continue, can you tell me a little bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center, the programming events and focuses? 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:08.000 Yeah, I mean, I remember--I should say this too, Ayana--I remember I was excited for the Black Student Center. I had applied to be the director of the Black Student Center at one time. I was excited, like this is the place, you know? And so, the vision around it being a place really, even though being in Student Affairs, being connected to Academic Affairs, really developing Black scholars and scholarship, having that historical understanding for folks and that education. Before it was formed, I know that like it was, people have the vision, honestly, that it was going to be the end all be all of everything, which is problematic because one space can't answer all things for Black students. And having people realize that, you know, the diaspora is not a monolith, right. And the students are not monolithic in their thinking and their approaches. So, I think even now, you know, that's a challenge, understanding how the richness and diversity among Black people and Black students. So having it be this end all be all is interesting, was interesting. So that's ‘kinda what I remember about it. My little piece. Yeah. 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:23.000 Mmm. So, expand upon that a little bit more about that. So, on that early, you didn't, any initiatives or programming specifically that you like knowingly like saw push, like right after the Black Student Center? 00:40:23.000 --> 00:42:40.000 I don't know if it was right after, but I know that they started to have Black step shows. They started to have Black Wall Street. They had the Black Panthers. They had one of my favorite events, they had something called Hidden Figures, and they were recognizing, they had it on so-called Valentine’s Day in February, which was also during a Black Excellence Month and they would recognize Black faculty and staff members on campus and their, the work that they did in a hidden way, and I was one of them. But one of the Black women, she doesn't work here anymore-- many of the Black women that were here don't work here anymore. It was just one of those events, it was one of my favorites because it was like, a we see you from the students, right. It was the student stance of Black faculty and staff, like we see you, we know what you do. They may not know, or other people may not know, but we know what you do for us, and we appreciate you for it. And it just, it was a really good event. So, there were a lot of great events when it first started, yeah, like four or five. But there they were having--oh, they would have Black Unity Hour, Unity Hour, I think they still have that. And they would try to do a lot of coordinator with the Black Faculty Staff Association. So, trying to welcome the Black Faculty Staff Association. They have this thing--I forget what it was called--but the Black Faculty and Staff Association, one person a week could come in and lead a conversation with the students on whatever topic that they were interested in. And, you know, so that was nice. I remember I did a topic in there with them, with another colleague, and we focused on white supremacy, white groups, and kind of like, what does that mean for Black lives and Black students, something like that, you know? So, they were doing a lot of programming, and they had a lot of interests. 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:48.000 So what are some wrinkles that do you think were worked out in the early days of the Center? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.000 That I can talk about? (laughter) 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.000 Yeah. That you can, yeah. (laughter) 00:42:54.000 --> 00:45:20.000 Yeah. I think understanding the mission and the goal of the Center, like I think they might even be working on that, like understanding that, like we know it’s a Center and we know it’s the space for Black students. But having a unified goal from the very beginning, not sure if they had that from the very beginning. Who could be in this space? It was always like a conversation. Who could be in the space? And I was like, Well, the space is open to all, right, ‘cause we're an inclusive environment, but let us not forget the space is gonna’ focus on Black scholarship, like what it means to be Black and those different things. And so, they had to always debunk myths. I feel like in the beginning, people would, they had to debunk myths, because people were like, Well, can I be in here? And they're like, It's a space like any other space on campus. Do you ask the other spaces if you can be there? Like they had to do a lot of like that teaching folks, they probably still have to do that. And I'm saying, I don't know for sure ‘cause we're in a pandemic, but you know, but they're still having virtual events. But that was like one of the things like people were out constantly asking people who maybe who didn't understand if they could be in the space and they would always be like, Yeah, you could be in the space, but just know in the space, this is the focus. And if you support the mission and the focus of the space, then there's no problem. And I do think, I do feel like the students were challenged a lot in the space. And I also think there was some internal things happening in this space. Yeah, just trying to work out the identity. I think the identity of the space being worked out and what it meant, you know, and because it didn’t come with a very strong mission or had a strong mission, people made the mission, or the identity of the space based on who they were and what they wanted to see out of the space. So that, I think sometimes that leads to conflict. In terms of just like everybody had their idea of going back to, even, you know, faculty and staff. Everybody had wanted the space to be everything for everybody and then realizing real quick that that cannot be the case. 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:27.000 So, what would you say is the purpose of the, of the Center specifically? 00:45:27.000 --> 00:48:05.000 Yeah, I would say the purpose of the space is Black scholarship for students is the first and foremost important part of the space. The space is in a place for higher education, and so the goal is to make sure that in whatever way the Center can help facilitate Black student success. So, Black student success and Black scholarship is what I would say is the most important facilitation of the space, right? Like how has that space facilitating Black students to graduate on time, to make sure that Black students know how to write, to make sure that, right, like we have the Writing Center and we have those other spaces, but if Black students are not going to those spaces for whatever reason, that they're also giving, getting that in some, to some degree, in the space. So, I think that’s one of the--this is my opinion--but yeah, one of the most important things that like Black, that Black student success is happening. And so, how they go about Black student success? I think the space gets to determine, right. But just like some of the things that I named, but also a place on a list to, if I had a list of what it's for, students to gather and be, and be in community. There's a long history, I think I even started with my beginning of like the importance of community to Black folks in the Americas. I would say globally, but I'm a scholar in the US mostly, I shouldn't say that. I have a Latin American studies minor. But and that was still like examining Blackness, you know? But yeah, Black student success overall. I know that's super general, but whatever it means for Black students. So, like if a Black student trying to graduate from Cal State, making sure I graduate, like, and I want to graduate, go to graduate school, what things can the space provide in conjunction with the services we have on campus? So maybe, you know, the Black Student Center is a facilitator, making sure that the students know what resources are available throughout the campus. So, a hub of facilitating that student success. 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:11.000 So, do you think this purpose is being accomplished, the multiple lines that you mentioned, currently? 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.000 Do I think the purpose is being accomplished right now? 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.000 Mmm-hmm. 00:48:16.000 --> 00:49:04.000 Yeah. I think that with their new student director, John Rawlins (III), I think that, well that we’re in a pandemic, but even in that, I think that John is trying to create some sustainable foundation for the space that wasn't there. So, I would say with the new director and with the new AVP Dr. (Gail) Cole-Avent (Associate Vice-President, Student Life), who also oversees all of the centers, they're definitely in tandem, working that that space is a place for student success, Black student success. Yes. I think they're on the journey. I don't know if they've arrived because the space is how old now, like three years? 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:07.000 Three years, it'll be five coming up, about four years. 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:42.000 Four years, and it’ll be five. Okay. So, and I think John has only been here one, maybe two, years, and Dr. Cole-Avent maybe one, maybe two years. So, you know, the space has gone through some, I want to say identity crisis, but I'm going to call it that for the lack of a better term. And they're trying to shape that and build that foundation and repair some things, repair some things. So, to your question, yes. I think that they are on the road to recovery and the road to making sure that the foundation for Black students for that space is student success. 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:52.000 Ok. All right. So how has the Black Student Center affected you personally? 00:49:52.000 --> 00:50:54.000 I love the space. Sometimes just when I walk the campus, I'll go visit all the spaces. But I love that when I come in the space, I feel welcomed by students. I'm happy to see them and they seem happy to see me. Unless they think I'm going to have them, assign them some things. (laughter) Or ask them some questions about classes, if they've gone or not. But the presence of the space has been great to like some of the events that have, I don't know of the capacity if you, of those events could have been had on campus without the space and the collaboration of the space. But just going in there and just seeing like, what's going on, what are y'all up to? What are y'all working on? Sometimes, especially in, you know, thinking about some of the conversations that they were having or some of the programs just to walk by or to stop in for a moment just to see what's going on. So good on campus. 00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:00.000 So, with all that's going on, what do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 I really expect that the Black student success initiative that's going to come down, I really hope that it can help grow our Black student population and have that space be a hub. And I say that, I'm trying to be gentle in saying that because John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is one person, right, and so doing, you know, the best that he can as one person. But what I would like to see next is those student initiatives out of the space, really concrete, and really growing and seeing scholarship, the scholarship that the students produce, the presentation opportunities, seeing, you know, the way that faculty continue to collaborate with the students and produce scholarship. That's what I think some of the next steps are. 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:10.000 Okay, so you had mentioned previously, but can you talk a little bit about your role on, on the, on campus currently? 00:52:10.000 --> 00:56:09.000 Yeah. I'm the Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives (in the Office of Inclusive Excellence). My role is to make sure, help make sure that the campus is inclusive and welcoming, to help make sure that the CDO (Chief Diversity Officer) and I, that we advise our presidential administration team on the best decisions for the campus to strategically be doing the work of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. And so, I know that's super broad, but it’s broad because, Ayana, it entails a lot. It looks different in different ways, right? It can look like a summit on what we're doing for specific populations. It can look like anti-racist work and implicit bias training. It can look like, what are we doing for students for putting together diversity work and sustainability work, and how is that helping student success? It can look like what are we doing with our social justice grants and how are people doing the work of diversity across campus? It has many forms. I do many things. It can look like, how do we decolonize a syllabus and work with the Faculty Center on a program, such as that and making sure that our faculty and staff also feel welcomed and included on campus doing this work. And that students, no matter where they go on campus, that we have some inclusive curriculum. It can look like there there's a new Ethnic Studies program coming, possibly, not program, I'm sorry bill or conversation, right. Like the work of the Office of Inclusive Excellence is very expansive across the campus because the goal was to make sure that inclusion is in everything that we do, whether in hiring, whether in our search process and our retention of our faculty, staff, and students, and our, again, in our curriculum, and the daily operations of like vendors and policies and how they're applied. So yeah, it's all of that with many forms and my job is to help facilitate it where I can, how I can, really building relationships across the campus and making sure that our Office is you know, also there to advise or to help and guide where folks need the assistance when they're, when they're trying to transform their department from, you know, a more inclusive space or department and they don't know what that looks like. So, it's a lot. I enjoy it. I enjoy working with our current, interim CDO (Dr. Ranjeeta Basu). We're in the midst of hiring a new chief--and I say CDO--that's the Chief Diversity Officer. And so, just trying to figure out where do we go from here? And I know where we go, we need to expand the capacity of our office so that we could continue to do this work all over, consistently. But what's nice is that the new President, President [Ellen] Neufeldt, has said this work belongs to the campus, and it is not just relegated to one office and that we all do this work of inclusion together. So, that's been a great relief, and you know, I applaud the new President for that. 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Okay. So, those are all my questions. Do you have anything you wanted to add or anything you would want to say? 00:56:16.000 --> 00:57:05.000 Yeah, I think this is a great project. I think that it's going to be important. I'm all into the institutional memory that we need to carry forward, especially with the conversations we're having now about like naming of buildings and why do we have those names or why do we have this space or what was the purpose. So, I'm very excited about the project and I love that the University Library was happy to partner with students, graduate students, with the (Black Student) Center, a lot of students, yourself and other students, who are doing the interviews, it becomes this whole research ecosystem, and I'm all happy for that. So good job. 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:10.000 Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you. This is a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.000 No problem. 00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000 Have a nice day. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en &#13 ; video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 Description An account of the resource Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-02 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence Student success, Black Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ariel Stevenson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Farrell (Penn.) Warren (Ohio) Reading (Penn.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <span><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a><br /></span> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ariel Stevenson Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bonnie Biggs OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. SC027-055 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Tribal libraries--Southern California ; Tribal libraries--New Mexico ; Libraries--Ghana ; Love on a Leash ; Patterson, Lotsee ; American Indian Library Association ; California Indians ; Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 ; Jazz-Ghana ; Jazz musicians--Ghana ; California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison ; California State University San Marcos. University Library Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Judith Downie audio 1.0:|21(7)|41(9)|69(10)|94(12)|108(12)|138(11)|153(11)|167(16)|191(5)|206(5)|227(12)|244(14)|265(3)|299(15)|331(9)|346(12)|382(8)|401(11)|419(15)|431(7)|443(9)|466(6)|501(6)|528(4)|544(6)|558(5)|582(12)|612(3)|650(16)|673(5)|687(14)|710(5)|728(16)|743(16)|763(3)|777(5)|806(3)|820(8)|833(10)|857(14)|884(10)|915(9)|938(8)|966(10)|1006(17)|1032(3)|1054(6)|1094(6)|1140(5)|1162(11)|1188(3)|1217(14)|1251(2)|1279(7)|1320(8)|1347(14)|1364(4)|1375(12)|1394(10)|1431(7)|1463(6)|1489(6)|1514(3)|1530(15)|1544(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/61a0275718a0293965abb1d4b9d1ca5e.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction and educational backgrounds Oral history interview with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs, March 26, 2024. Interview by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at CSUSM. &#13 ; &#13 ; Bonnie Biggs and Gunnar Biggs discuss their educational backgrounds and how they met. 0 160 Early professional and CSUSM history Bonnie Biggs recalls working as a public librarian in Encinitas and Solana Beach while gaining her Master's from USC. After this, she began working as an academic librarian at the SDSU North County satellite campus that would become CSUSM in 1989. Biggs recalls the various professional relationships she cultivated, and the "chaos" in transitioning SDSU to CSUSM. 0 1024 County and Tribal library cooperation In this segment, Bonnie Biggs discusses her role in facilitating cooperation between the San Diego County and Tribal libraries after the dissolution of their working relationship. This included American Indian culture fairs before the establishment of Powwows at CSUSM and most importantly gaining the trust of local Indigenous communities. In the end of this segment, Biggs and Judith Downey discuss the importance of archives in preserving, documenting, and maintaining valuable historical information. 0 1392 Powwows Before powwows were sanctioned at CSUSM, there were American Indian culture fairs. Bonnie Biggs briefly explains the necessities and process of facilitating these social gatherings for Indigenous American communities. Biggs also discusses meeting "Uncle" Henry Rodriguez, a Luiseño elder, culture bearer, and water rights activist who was a crucial to CSUSM in building the university's relationships with local tribes. 0 1759 Tenure and second sabbatical Regarding her second sabbatical, Bonnie Biggs shares her experience working with the Pueblo peoples in New Mexico. She recalls how she met her mentor Dr. Lotsee Patterson (Comanche), founder of the American Indian Library Association, who was instrumental for securing the trust of Tribal communities, and access to Tribal libraries. 0 2057 Academic Senate and Tribal Liaison This segment covers the time Bonnie Biggs served aboard the Academic Senate as vice chair for four years. Biggs shares that she chose not to serve as chair, despite being elected, and instead accepted President Karen Haynes's request to serve as the university's inaugural Tribal Liaison. Biggs considers this one of her most important accomplishments as she was able to build a trusting relationship between CSUSM and tribal communities in Southern California. Biggs also discussed founding the Native Advisory Council alongside Wendy Schlater (Luiseño). 0 2485 Therapy dogs Regarding other "firsts" at CSUSM, Bonnie recalls bringing therapy dogs to campus, and how helpful they are to not only students but staff, faculty, and administrators. A brief segment, Downey transitions to then speaking about Biggs's first sabbatical. 0 2568 First sabbatical in Ghana Narrator Downey circles back to Bonnie Biggs's first sabbatical in Ghana. Both Gunnar and Bonnie Biggs recall working with Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM and Director of the National Theater of Ghana. Gunnar recalls his experience sharing jazz knowledge as well as learning Ghanian drumming, while Bonnie recounts going on national radio to speak about the similarities between indigenous libraries in Ghana and tribal libraries in the USA. 0 2980 Additional CSU accomplishments Bonnie Biggs shares some of her other accomplishments at the CSU level, including work with the American Library Association. Bonnie once again discusses therapy dogs, through her work with Love on a Leash, as well as her continued work with the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center at CSUSM. Finally, Bonnie and Gunnar share their culminating statements regarding their appreciation for CSUSM. 0 Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-- Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie ; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University ; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twenty-year gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-- Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-- G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transition- B Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world and- Downie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-- B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-- B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-- Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that. I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-- Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-- B Biggs: Crossing lines-- Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-- Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-- B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-- Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-- B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-- B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-- Downie: Marion got oral histories from-- B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-- B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-- Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-- G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-- B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-- G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-- B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-- B Biggs: I remember that now. Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-- G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-- G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez ; Native American water rights activist ; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-- Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-- Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-- Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-- B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a two-night trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-- Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). And- B Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-- G Biggs: Find that picture-- B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, so- Downie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter ; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-- Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying to- G Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-- G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-- B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue ; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-- Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-- B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-- B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-- Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-- B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-- Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-- G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer ; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-- B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris ; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes ; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-- B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-- Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-- G Biggs: LAFS- B Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-- Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So-- B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-- G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-- G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-- B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-- Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-- B Biggs: Not that many of them-- Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-- G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-- G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-- G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-- Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-- G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-- G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-- G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-- B Biggs: For all the arts-- G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-- B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-- G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-- B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-- B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-- B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-- G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-- B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-- G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-- B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-- Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-- Downie: It morphed into something different-- Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-- Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-- B Biggs: Yes, yes-- Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-- B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-- B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-- G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-- B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-- G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-- B Biggs: They go-- G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-- B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-- G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-- G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-- B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-- B Biggs: Yeah, it was-- G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it was- G Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-- B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-- Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-- B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-- B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-- B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-- Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-- Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC ; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-- B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-- B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-- G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-- Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-- Downie: Because-- B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-- Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-- Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-- B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-- B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-055 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chanel Bradley OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. RED Campaign;Social Justice Summits;Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. SC027-35 01:12:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos RED Campaign ; Social Justice Summits ; Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship Chanel Bradley Michael De Maria BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.mp4 1:|11(3)|19(12)|31(6)|39(13)|49(3)|56(13)|63(2)|75(13)|88(9)|99(1)|108(5)|116(13)|129(12)|136(17)|147(10)|157(2)|167(15)|181(5)|193(7)|204(14)|217(11)|228(3)|240(7)|252(2)|262(13)|273(11)|285(3)|297(5)|308(7)|322(2)|329(14)|341(2)|352(11)|364(12)|375(10)|386(17)|397(8)|409(4)|420(6)|432(3)|440(10)|450(10)|460(5)|473(8)|485(5)|493(12)|502(3)|511(12)|521(2)|531(8)|540(5)|550(6)|563(3)|576(15)|588(2)|600(5)|611(2)|619(6)|633(2)|644(11)|654(14)|665(9)|679(11)|693(19)|704(9)|720(3)|730(8)|741(12)|750(11)|760(9)|771(11)|798(3)|800(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d4ea6df2420ccf154c84a6af1258992a.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction Michael De Maria interviews Chanel Bradley in regards to her background and experience at California State University San Marcos. 0 24 Childhood Bradley discusses growing up in a predominately white community in Orange County and how she formed community there. 0 152 Choosing to attend CSUSM and get involved in Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Bradley's parents wanted her close to home so she chose to attend CSUSM and live in the dorms. She originally attended the CCC due to all of its free resources but soon enjoyed the diverse community it created. Bradley soon began volunteering due to obtaining a misdemeanor but eventually applied as a peer educator at the center a few years later. Sara Sheikh ; Social Justice Summit ; multi-ethnic 0 458 First Social Justice Summit Experience/ Finding Her Voice Bradley discusses how as growing up she would often suppress her identity as a person of color to fit in. By attending the Social Justice Summit it gave her ways to express herself and to feel empowered within her identity. empowered ; Social Justice Summit 0 736 Using Her Creativity to Drive the CCC Bradley discusses how her creative nature was able to be put into practice at the CCC. She used games and slogans to help educate and encourage students to find their power. power ; impactful ; peer mentorship 0 1124 Staff Relationship/ Developing leadership skills Bradley explains how supervisors and staff at the CCC had a close connection due to cultural similarities and beliefs. She explains how when there was a change in management at the CCC, Bradley became the one that guided the new supervisor. This helped her to gain leadership skills and relationship skills as well. leadership ; leader ; relationships ; mentor ; Floyd Lai 0 1640 Creating a Welcoming Space Bradley explains how her favorite memory was being able to create an ambiance that made students feel represented and safe. welcoming ; ambiance ; atmosphere ; guidance 0 1760 Reviving Black Student Union Bradley discusses how she revived the Black Student Union after its inactivity. She explains how her experience with the CCC provided her with resources and knowledge to begin an organization. She fixed the bylaws, encouraged protests, and recruited members for the board. protests ; BSU ; organization ; Black Student Union 0 2364 The role of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center aids various organizations on campus by equipping, empowering, and helping with self expression and representation. empower ; equip ; educate ; represent 0 2674 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center/ Finding the Courage Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center opened her eyes up and helped her mature politically and socially. It gave her the passion to speak up and educate others about social issues that are often suppressed. politics ; serve 0 3045 Current Direction of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the growth of our campus should also be focused and centered on the students needs. either being socially, politically or financially focused. She talks about how professors should remain personable and bring current situations into the curriculum. activism ; identity ; allyship ; protesting 0 3387 Underrepresented Communities on Campus Bradley discusses how the undocumented experience becomes adjacent to the Chicano student movement. She recalls the Et Cetera club, a student organization that created space for those who may not identify with other organizations at that time. undocumented ; under represented ; duality ; Et Cetera club 0 3616 Lessons Learned From Cross-Cultural Center Bradley was taught that not only she had power and leadership potential but how to use it as well. She exercised her power by speaking up against a paper writing false claims towards minority groups. She also discusses how she learned to recharge as an affective leader. power ; protest ; minority ; self preserve 0 3965 How to Practice Your Voice Bradley explains how one should educate themselves, and get involved in social groups that represent them as a minority. To stand up for what one believes in and to not let a box or label define you. 0 Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumni. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related centers on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the campus (unauthorized) student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant&#13 ; with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her&#13 ; involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University&#13 ; San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel,&#13 ; I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the&#13 ; community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like.&#13 ; &#13 ; Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so&#13 ; I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different&#13 ; high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like&#13 ; predominantly a white&#13 ; &#13 ; county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one&#13 ; of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was&#13 ; like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others,&#13 ; (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time&#13 ; with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I&#13 ; went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my&#13 ; grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in&#13 ; &#13 ; Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like&#13 ; people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot&#13 ; of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of&#13 ; most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San&#13 ; Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he&#13 ; didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice.&#13 ; And so, I applied to other&#13 ; &#13 ; colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal&#13 ; State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living&#13 ; in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on&#13 ; like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the&#13 ; dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students' motivation is free&#13 ; things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends&#13 ; &#13 ; and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I&#13 ; went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had&#13 ; so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had&#13 ; books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being&#13 ; multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice&#13 ; to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from&#13 ; all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I&#13 ; &#13 ; served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what,&#13 ; almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I&#13 ; remember either like going to the Cross-Cultural Center director (laughs). I, I&#13 ; was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I ended up&#13 ; (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman&#13 ; year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work&#13 ; experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had&#13 ; suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created&#13 ; some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so&#13 ; after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that&#13 ; same year,&#13 ; &#13 ; might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to&#13 ; be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of&#13 ; involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for&#13 ; you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that&#13 ; incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you&#13 ; worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were&#13 ; involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me&#13 ; through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like,&#13 ; what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first&#13 ; Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what&#13 ; happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering&#13 ; the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the&#13 ; files of my brain.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh).&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my&#13 ; boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly&#13 ; consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white&#13 ; area, and like knowing that I was not white,&#13 ; &#13 ; was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you&#13 ; kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are&#13 ; probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to&#13 ; say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when&#13 ; I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were&#13 ; talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and&#13 ; marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in&#13 ; like different intersects.&#13 ; &#13 ; And--they&#13 ; &#13 ; also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still&#13 ; talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that,&#13 ; that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the&#13 ; marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social&#13 ; Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my&#13 ; activism, if you will. It gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It&#13 ; gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey&#13 ; or like continue their journey&#13 ; &#13 ; or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me&#13 ; to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I,&#13 ; because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them&#13 ; happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from&#13 ; that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four&#13 ; of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the&#13 ; committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator,&#13 ; &#13 ; so.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so&#13 ; she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's&#13 ; awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that&#13 ; you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone&#13 ; who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't&#13 ; necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in&#13 ; your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved&#13 ; where you didn't necessarily play by the rules.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person.&#13 ; &#13 ; So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay,&#13 ; what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz,&#13 ; and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and&#13 ; experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs).&#13 ; I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make&#13 ; sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other&#13 ; centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride&#13 ; Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about,&#13 ; but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put&#13 ; them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening&#13 ; to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like&#13 ; twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and&#13 ; talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's&#13 ; &#13 ; more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game&#13 ; or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and,&#13 ; it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who&#13 ; reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in&#13 ; classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college&#13 ; students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the&#13 ; box. I&#13 ; &#13 ; know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my,&#13 ; my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would&#13 ; probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would&#13 ; say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think&#13 ; of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I&#13 ; think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second&#13 ; or third social justice event that I was on the committee with.&#13 ; &#13 ; And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word&#13 ; vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest&#13 ; words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The&#13 ; ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't&#13 ; know if you remember that.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Um-hm&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something&#13 ; like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I&#13 ; found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word,&#13 ; the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to,&#13 ; like we have the power,&#13 ; &#13 ; we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it&#13 ; was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I&#13 ; had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by&#13 ; like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of&#13 ; see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something&#13 ; that they probably wouldn't normally going to.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a&#13 ; tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my&#13 ; research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the&#13 ; lifeblood of the organization. The people who&#13 ; &#13 ; affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was&#13 ; just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other&#13 ; student staff as well as your superiors?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s&#13 ; been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did&#13 ; he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was&#13 ; Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like,&#13 ; essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is&#13 ; Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at&#13 ; &#13 ; that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly&#13 ; didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was&#13 ; like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even&#13 ; remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would&#13 ; use then.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer&#13 ; relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't&#13 ; working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he&#13 ; would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, but&#13 ; it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody&#13 ; knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got&#13 ; (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the&#13 ; (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up&#13 ; without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of&#13 ; like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman&#13 ; year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And&#13 ; as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful&#13 ; past it was&#13 ; &#13 ; comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like&#13 ; she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've&#13 ; never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it&#13 ; was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I&#13 ; mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially&#13 ; were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like&#13 ; he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this&#13 ; day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center), because I was so connected with&#13 ; &#13 ; Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that&#13 ; things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything&#13 ; and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I&#13 ; definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power&#13 ; shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time&#13 ; I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group&#13 ; on campus.&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling&#13 ; me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you&#13 ; have to&#13 ; &#13 ; lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that&#13 ; Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of&#13 ; came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you&#13 ; have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I&#13 ; kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me.&#13 ; I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I&#13 ; think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result.&#13 ; &#13 ; And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other&#13 ; &#13 ; like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while,&#13 ; but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there&#13 ; (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to&#13 ; an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno,&#13 ; I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with.&#13 ; And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with&#13 ; Diana (Salidvar).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like&#13 ; connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a&#13 ; &#13 ; very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like,&#13 ; you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still&#13 ; learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like,&#13 ; I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help&#13 ; me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be&#13 ; resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among&#13 ; other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's,&#13 ; therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person.&#13 ; And, yeah, it&#13 ; &#13 ; definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort&#13 ; of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached&#13 ; a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and&#13 ; just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now&#13 ; that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want&#13 ; to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad&#13 ; taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room.&#13 ; And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends&#13 ; and I call it am-Beyonce&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And&#13 ; so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I&#13 ; enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I&#13 ; would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just&#13 ; creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a&#13 ; way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about&#13 ; something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping&#13 ; individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this&#13 ; place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of&#13 ; working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just&#13 ; &#13 ; creating that space for students.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's&#13 ; definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of&#13 ; provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I&#13 ; know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as&#13 ; well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that&#13 ; organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just&#13 ; starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got&#13 ; involved in that project as well.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was&#13 ; pretty active&#13 ; &#13 ; then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of&#13 ; them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my&#13 ; second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then&#13 ; Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I&#13 ; think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next&#13 ; head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top&#13 ; &#13 ; that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he&#13 ; did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that&#13 ; organizations need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment&#13 ; efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja&#13 ; graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating&#13 ; before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen&#13 ; that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the&#13 ; underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not&#13 ; mistaken, a&#13 ; &#13 ; couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became&#13 ; inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that&#13 ; time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things&#13 ; with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was&#13 ; doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end&#13 ; of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?”&#13 ; I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I&#13 ; think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to&#13 ; &#13 ; get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with&#13 ; a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I&#13 ; see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to&#13 ; talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if&#13 ; I need to.&#13 ; &#13 ; I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student&#13 ; worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a&#13 ; university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that&#13 ; role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they&#13 ; knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough&#13 ; &#13 ; members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a&#13 ; secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the&#13 ; summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do&#13 ; and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I&#13 ; believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this&#13 ; organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes&#13 ; started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna&#13 ; do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember&#13 ; when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new&#13 ; students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my&#13 ; recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president&#13 ; and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like&#13 ; overseeing student organizations. (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?”&#13 ; And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at&#13 ; the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we&#13 ; &#13 ; have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're&#13 ; just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm&#13 ; honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs)&#13 ; while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well&#13 ; within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions&#13 ; at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group&#13 ; is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these&#13 ; students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these&#13 ; students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about,&#13 ; you know, centering Black narrative and who want&#13 ; &#13 ; to move that forward.&#13 ; &#13 ; So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get&#13 ; F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and&#13 ; bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and&#13 ; I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students&#13 ; because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I&#13 ; had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all&#13 ; those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like,&#13 ; “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would&#13 ; benefit from it.” And&#13 ; &#13 ; I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am&#13 ; leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was&#13 ; like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my&#13 ; mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was&#13 ; like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he,&#13 ; he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make&#13 ; sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more&#13 ; past this.” So yeah, that was,&#13 ; &#13 ; that was a lot (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of&#13 ; the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the&#13 ; health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in&#13 ; situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and&#13 ; just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center&#13 ; playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity&#13 ; expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I&#13 ; &#13 ; don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a&#13 ; council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board&#13 ; leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or&#13 ; concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you&#13 ; will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student&#13 ; organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters&#13 ; &#13 ; that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because&#13 ; I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there&#13 ; wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career&#13 ; Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black&#13 ; student on it.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically&#13 ; implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't&#13 ; gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like,&#13 ; &#13 ; “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not&#13 ; gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the&#13 ; careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people&#13 ; of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like,&#13 ; “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to&#13 ; be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not&#13 ; only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The&#13 ; Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames,&#13 ; like you could make the&#13 ; &#13 ; materials that you need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for&#13 ; marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that&#13 ; you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for&#13 ; like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt&#13 ; (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show&#13 ; up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because&#13 ; I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what&#13 ; website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know&#13 ; where to go to get scholarships for our&#13 ; &#13 ; group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship&#13 ; with, you know, centers who work with student organizations.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely&#13 ; a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message&#13 ; heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that&#13 ; we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask&#13 ; you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student&#13 ; Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort&#13 ; &#13 ; of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those&#13 ; experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and&#13 ; my politics. I think it opened my eyes to a lot of different things,&#13 ; organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to&#13 ; serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on&#13 ; a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also&#13 ; worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in&#13 ; &#13 ; Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development.&#13 ; And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I&#13 ; would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what&#13 ; sort of shaped me there.&#13 ; &#13 ; But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was&#13 ; during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going&#13 ; to protests before&#13 ; &#13 ; then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I&#13 ; even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest&#13 ; is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's&#13 ; like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it,&#13 ; (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I&#13 ; want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the&#13 ; system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also&#13 ; I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know?&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that&#13 ; too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest&#13 ; is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a&#13 ; different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla&#13 ; and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National&#13 ; City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the&#13 ; news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that&#13 ; moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and&#13 ; watching someone's&#13 ; &#13 ; lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l&#13 ; being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need.&#13 ; &#13 ; We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we&#13 ; thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills&#13 ; thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you&#13 ; just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like,&#13 ; “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore.&#13 ; It's not okay. And so I would rather&#13 ; &#13 ; be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super&#13 ; profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being&#13 ; able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing&#13 ; results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very,&#13 ; very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center should grow in?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't&#13 ; know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last&#13 ; time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while&#13 ; since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it&#13 ; was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have&#13 ; this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone&#13 ; knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that&#13 ; we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I&#13 ; remember seeing the blueprints of this&#13 ; &#13 ; Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was,&#13 ; you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of&#13 ; how things have evolved.&#13 ; &#13 ; I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for&#13 ; passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual&#13 ; passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or&#13 ; something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting&#13 ; about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let&#13 ; me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because&#13 ; this doesn't make&#13 ; &#13 ; sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the&#13 ; student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot&#13 ; of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space,&#13 ; because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to&#13 ; go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA&#13 ; (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students&#13 ; come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about&#13 ; to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think&#13 ; that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now.&#13 ; I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there,&#13 ; &#13 ; but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's&#13 ; what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know,&#13 ; peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was&#13 ; there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about&#13 ; identity and allyship.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations&#13 ; where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm.&#13 ; And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some&#13 ; of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I&#13 ; don't know,&#13 ; &#13 ; whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so&#13 ; how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address&#13 ; it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is&#13 ; not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I&#13 ; see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not&#13 ; be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or&#13 ; like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the&#13 ; hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those&#13 ; spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray&#13 ; space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity&#13 ; development, because like I said,&#13 ; &#13 ; college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you&#13 ; have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of&#13 ; reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of&#13 ; like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time,&#13 ; like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do&#13 ; you feel are underrepresented on campus?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Hmm...&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I&#13 ; definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience&#13 ; was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a&#13 ; friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social&#13 ; Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented&#13 ; students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know&#13 ; is undocumented and I didn't have&#13 ; &#13 ; like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my&#13 ; license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.”&#13 ; If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have&#13 ; endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community.&#13 ; &#13 ; I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I&#13 ; was a student. I think MEChA--&#13 ; &#13 ; DeMaria: Um-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the&#13 ; undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends&#13 ; that I&#13 ; &#13 ; was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't&#13 ; remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I&#13 ; remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group&#13 ; as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created&#13 ; an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for&#13 ; the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity.&#13 ; Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to&#13 ; be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that&#13 ; was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either&#13 ; like myself live in like a duality, or others who just&#13 ; &#13 ; maybe don't identify in a particular space.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first&#13 ; one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with&#13 ; the Cross-Cultural Center?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick&#13 ; one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had&#13 ; power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way&#13 ; &#13 ; that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper&#13 ; doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs)&#13 ; to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also&#13 ; existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it&#13 ; was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but&#13 ; like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're&#13 ; like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I&#13 ; was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember noticing that this was not&#13 ; &#13 ; okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was&#13 ; like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna&#13 ; hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people&#13 ; understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on&#13 ; campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my&#13 ; gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other&#13 ; campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?”&#13 ; Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in&#13 ; solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these&#13 ; salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps,&#13 ; like the steps that are next to the clock.&#13 ; &#13 ; They wrote the names of all the members in the organization.&#13 ; &#13 ; This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but&#13 ; (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually&#13 ; bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted&#13 ; to run for ASI president.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria:&#13 ; &#13 ; Right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically&#13 ; passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he&#13 ; ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so&#13 ; that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna&#13 ; &#13 ; have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a&#13 ; federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping&#13 ; into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a&#13 ; battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how&#13 ; to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of&#13 ; things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot&#13 ; like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I&#13 ; had stopped making such a fuss about that paper,&#13 ; &#13 ; and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were&#13 ; interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I&#13 ; was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of&#13 ; preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what&#13 ; they found to be important for them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And&#13 ; also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial&#13 ; agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said.&#13 ; So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for&#13 ; a good end.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Which&#13 ; &#13 ; is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something&#13 ; you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an&#13 ; other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to&#13 ; know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if&#13 ; someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start&#13 ; agitating or get involved in social justice?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe&#13 ; it like a butterfly, because I am like--ambiguous&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups&#13 ; and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily&#13 ; have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every&#13 ; box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like,&#13 ; “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So&#13 ; in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into&#13 ; that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really&#13 ; nice, to experience. But also I think--&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice&#13 ; &#13 ; Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely&#13 ; informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social&#13 ; justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they&#13 ; had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like&#13 ; school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of&#13 ; grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals as well as&#13 ; shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is&#13 ; when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's&#13 ; &#13 ; terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like&#13 ; genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even&#13 ; just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot&#13 ; of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop&#13 ; that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful,&#13 ; but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know,&#13 ; minority groups, who were young. I think for me,&#13 ; &#13 ; growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I&#13 ; wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my&#13 ; strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so&#13 ; for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in&#13 ; supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want&#13 ; to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand&#13 ; up for what I believe in.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of&#13 ; taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or&#13 ; &#13 ; that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous&#13 ; to social justice. So I completely get that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank&#13 ; you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a&#13 ; lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about&#13 ; the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of&#13 ; embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening&#13 ; up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what&#13 ; you went through and what you did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:&#13 ; &#13 ; Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to&#13 ; interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some&#13 ; of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: You’re welcome,&#13 ; &#13 ; okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity-related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-35 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos Minorities in higher education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bradley, Chanel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource De Maria, Michael Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Chanel Bradley Activists and activism Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience